When she first appears they have a brief dialogue in some language (latin perhaps?)

I could understand a bit of it having been fluent in Spanish, so I took it as being Latin.

:) But I can be wrong on that score.

I put on the closed caption and it said latin... now I wish I knew latin. I wonder though why she initially spoke in that language to begin with?

I put on the closed caption and it said latin... now I wish I knew latin. I wonder though why she initially spoke in that language to begin with?

I saw it the same as Hunt For Red October. Sean Connery was speaking Russian and the camera closes in on his mouth, then he is speaking English. The audience knows he didn't magically learn to speak English. It was a way for the actors not to learn the whole show/movie in a foreign language.

Exactly. It's like how in Sayid's Iraq scenes, sometimes they start in Arabic and then switch to English. Did the characters switch? Nope. The actors don't speak their own characters languages fluently. I really enjoyed Sun/Jin scenes, because they actually spoke Korean.

I really enjoyed Sun/Jin scenes, because they actually spoke Korean.

I agree, but I think it would be easier to find two actors show could speak Korean (since it is not a dead language) than find actors who could speak Latin. I am assuming they had more time to find actors for the Sun and Jin characters.

I agree, but I think it would be easier to find two actors show could speak Korean (since it is not a dead language) than find actors who could speak Latin. I am assuming they had more time to find actors for the Sun and Jin characters.
You also have to consider that Sun and Jin's inability to speak English was part of the story. It was a semi-crucial attribute of the characters, and not just part of their backstory. Claudia's Latin, like Sayid's Arabic, are just matters of "authenticity."

Anybody else curious about the magic spell Mother cast on the Holy Grail before Jacob drank out of it? I've been looking for a transcript and I can't find anything. I know Latin... if it is Latin... but I couldn't hear any of it to understand. Thoughts?

Can anyone read lips, in Latin?

: )

I'm not so curious about the exact words as much as where she learned to manipulate the power of the island through potions & incantations.
Unless she came to the island with a working knowledge of witchcraft and basically figured it out for herself, someone else before her passed the role & knowledge of protector on to her.

I found it very strange for her need to say anything at all. If Jacob was her replacement all along, as she says, why does she need a spell?
Will our Candidate need a spell cast on him over a glass of wine? If Jacob is already dead who is going to cast the spell? Hurley might get some help from a dead person for that.

The only person that I can remember having drank something from someone else is Jack and Dogen's "Tea". I can't remember any incantations in that scene. Perhaps it was just tea.

It might have been the wine itself that is important. Or even the cup. But in the end I think it's all just misdirection, and it's simply her will that makes it so. She certainly seems to have supernatural powers.

I didn't get the feeling she was whispering an incantation as much as she was blessing the wine.

yeah i was wondering why people weren't going nuts over trying to find out what she said... apparently they're too busy debating whether MiB's name is Jose...

I think she said, "What lies in the shadow of the statue?"

But really, this made no sense. She starts off speaking latin, then goes into English with an American accent, and then uses latin again.

I think this was the show literally saying "A wizard did it."

Let that sink in for a second.

I thought it was a blessing and now I'm wondering why Jacob gave Smokey the wine. Now, there's no wine, no one to give the blessing if a candidate is finally named!

I thought it was a blessing and now I'm wondering why Jacob gave Smokey the wine. Now, there's no wine, no one to give the blessing if a candidate is finally named!

Maybe theres more than one bottle of wine in the magic Island.
And I doubt Jacob is dead.

I have no idea what she said but on second watch did notice in this same scene that she touches Jacob's fingers with hers as she hands him the cup of wine. Are we to assume she was passing immortality onto him? Just as Jacob passes it on to Richard?

One thing I noticed on the re-watch is that she only said to BiB that he didn't need to worry about what dead means.

I have no idea what she said but on second watch did notice in this same scene that she touches Jacob's fingers with hers as she hands him the cup of wine. Are we to assume she was passing immortality onto him? Just as Jacob passes it on to Richard?
I noticed that too and wondered the same thing. It doesn't seem, though, that she tells him that she's passing this "gift" to him so I've been curious how he discovered what he's able to do and not do.
One thing I noticed on the re-watch is that she only said to BiB that he didn't need to worry about what dead means.
Good catch, Avius! I didn't notice that but that would fit in with the 'specialness' of Brother.

I have no idea what she said but on second watch did notice in this same scene that she touches Jacob's fingers with hers as she hands him the cup of wine. Are we to assume she was passing immortality onto him? Just as Jacob passes it on to Richard?

I was wondering if the wine is what does the trick or was it the touch? My mind, too, went straight back to the scene where Richard received his "gift". He later tells Jack and Hurley that Jacob touched him and that this was his way of giving his gifts... only Richard rethunk them to be curses after MiB showed back up and killed Jacob.

We also see Jacob touch many of the Losties to designate them as candidates. He never gives them a shot glass.

I am wondering if the wine is made from the magic glowing water and this is the source of power that allows him to pass on his gifts via touch. I had some Tequilla one time that made me all touchy feely and I thought I was giving all the gals gifts...they even touched me back via sharp slaps to the face.:redface:

The incantation was probably just a blessing (or a foreboding :eek2:).

Anybody else curious about the magic spell Mother cast on the Holy Grail before Jacob drank out of it? I've been looking for a transcript and I can't find anything. I know Latin... if it is Latin... but I couldn't hear any of it to understand. Thoughts?

I can't say for sure what the incantation was for, but I have a few ideas as to what she might have meant when she said "Now you're like me". I think it gave Jacob eternal youth... that is, he stopped aging the second he drank it. Not unlike certain ideologies about the Holy Grail, really.

I think it gave Jacob eternal youth... that is, he stopped aging the second he drank it. Not unlike certain ideologies about the Holy Grail, really.

Oh snap! I missed that literary metaphor!!!

I thought it was a blessing and now I'm wondering why Jacob gave Smokey the wine. Now, there's no wine, no one to give the blessing if a candidate is finally named!

I was wondering the same thing. Didn't MIB drink from that wine once? I believe it was in Ab Aeterno. Was he already "possessed" with the Smoke Monster then? I'm guessing he was...

Anyways, there must be some botte of Dharma wine around somewhere... and we can always bring Mommy back as a hologram or something for her blessing. I mean, why the hell not right...?

Everyone who speaks a foreign language on "Lost" speaks perfectly. Sometimes they are native speakers, but sometimes not. The Others that the Losties encountered last season spoke perfect Classical Latin.

But not Mom. Why was her Latin so horrible? Is that some sort of clue to her ancestry, or have the writers stopped worrying about the details?

Aj had a crap Latin accent? Which is why they switched to English so it wouldn't sound so stilted and cumbersome?

Yes, that was a horrible accent. I think in earlier seasons they would have spent more time having her get it right, or found an actress who could do it right, but now they just don't care about details like that, to the detriment of the show.

Probably 95% of the audience would never know the accent was crap. 85% probably had no idea what language they were speaking.

According to Jorge, they had a Latin professor on set, to assist with the lines. So it's not as if they just did some bad translation and let AJ wing it. Your beef is with the guy who gave the "nod" that the lines were right.

I thought it was on purpose. It caused mother to realize it may not be her native language and switched to English. (?)

Latin is a dead language. No one knows how to pronounce it. All we have are fragments and what we can infer from to languages that sprang from it. I didn't have any problem with her pronunciation because I don't know what it actually sounds like, and neither does anyone else.

-steve

I guess Allison Janney wasn't a quick study when it came to Latin? A minor detail IMO considering how little time she spent on set.

Well, you could definitely hear that some of the sounds sounded very English indeed (the r's among others), but other than that I can't judge that myself.

It is however false to say that everyone else but mother has handled foreign languages perfectly. Jacob's Russian was appaling, I don't remember for sure, but I don't remember Ms. Klugh and Mikhail's being that brilliant as well. I don't know Korean as well as I'd like to, but I've read members say that even Jin's accent doesn't sound all that authentic.

As much as complete believability would be nice, I think it's just the nature of the business for them not being able to attend every single nuance.

Latin is a dead language. No one knows how to pronounce it. All we have are fragments and what we can infer from to languages that sprang from it. I didn't have any problem with her pronunciation because I don't know what it actually sounds like, and neither does anyone else.

-steve

To set the record straight, Latin texts survive in considerable amounts, not fragments. While it is true that there are no recordings that provide a record of its pronunciation, Latin phonologists have reconstructed the evolution of Latin (classical, vuglar, ecclesiastical, etc.) based on texts where phonology can be inferred (poetry, puns, etc.) and regional variations in Romance languages that are still evident. Can these reconstructions be proven? No. Are they likely very close? Yes.

Was AJ even close?
... ;)

If I were to get up before a group doing my flawless imitation of Millard Fillmore telling a joke, who would be in a position to challenge the quality of my imitation? Nobody.

Latin in text books is generally a compilation of a language which, when live, had many layers of proper usage: law, religious observance, diplomacy, forensics, jargon, etc.

Moreover, Latin, as spoken over an expanding empire, would have been an amalgamation of dialect, idiom and colloquialism.

I personally am not too concerned about AJ's pronunciations of a language I've never heard spoken live myself. It's the kind of thing I give a pass without much question at all. I took eight years of Latin and for years followed the Mass with a Latin missal.

If I were to get up before a group doing my flawless imitation of Millard Fillmore telling a joke, who would be in a position to challenge the quality of my imitation? Nobody.

Latin in text books is generally a compilation of a language which, when live, had many layers of proper usage: law, religious observance, diplomacy, forensics, jargon, etc.

Moreover, Latin, as spoken over an expanding empire, would have been an amalgamation of dialect, idiom and colloquialism.

I personally am not too concerned about AJ's pronunciations of a language I've never heard spoken live myself. It's the kind of thing I give a pass without much question at all. I took eight years of Latin and for years followed the Mass with a Latin missal.

Very true, I leave it to everyone else to decide whether or not to care. To me, it's not surprising that certain actors have difficulty with certain languages. My point is that reconstructions of the historical pronunciations of the language do exist; it is possible for one to achieve different degrees of accuracy in their pronunciation.

And I'm confused, you have attended Tridentine Masses but have never heard a form of Latin spoken live?

Uh, I think Sayids lamentable "iraqi" accent throughout the entire 5.8 seasons of the show was proof they weren't going to spend too much time on details like proper accents. I mean remember that horrid accent Desmonds ex gf had (in I forget which episode)... they never really bothered. There have been quite a few bad australian accents too... Honestly she spoke 4 lines of latin and then they switched to english presumably so they didnt have to subtitle the whole episode... anyway anyone who wants to think that the quality has gone downhill is wrong... the quality regarding accurate accents was never there to begin with because its just not that important.

i actually took her accent to be more along the lines of:

Mother is much, much, older than she appears. If Jacob has been the current protector of the Island, then it stands to reason that Mother's original life could have begun centuries to 2000 years even before his arrival. In which case her original language has most likely been lost to the ages.

She seemed both crazy and wild - perhaps brought on by being alone for such an extended period of time. Her language skills would be out of use.

*OR*

The actress didn't have much time to study the Latin with her coach in time for the episode. (Which may be why the Latin portion of the episode was so brief.)

I would have liked a better transition from the Latin to the English, but I got what they were trying to do.

Again, I must insist that only 4 angels can dance on the head of a pin...

This has nothing to do with the writers, it is a production issue, not a writing issue. I have heard people say that DDK's Korean is pretty bad, I take their word for it.

Just another thing people feel they need to pick at. (not saying that nothing needs to be nitpicked, but this is just pointless).

And I'm confused, you have attended Tridentine Masses but have never heard a form of Latin spoken live?

Yes. And it still holds true, exactly as stated.

I have heard Church Latin recited, sung, chanted, delivered, droned, ritualized, enacted, dramatized and theatrically interpreted; but I have never heard Latin spoken, colloquially, and as a living language, as it would have been common among the contemporary Roman Empire inhabitants [whose rich language we have tried hard to preserve].

Uh, all Written language and Spoken language of the same tongue are not the exact same thing. They are kissing cousins at best, so when dealing with dead languages, one has to keep this in mind.

American English has lots and lots and lots of variation in both the written and spoken, so in a language as wide spread as Latin was, it makes no sense whatsoever to assume that all SPOKEN Latin sounded exactly alike. In fact, English accents are based on lots of variables--I'd be more than happy to have a lengthy chat about the R-less speach of various northeaster states with spoken English giving us "wadda" while written English translates that as "water" no matte where in the US you live. And then throw in British English and Australian English and anyone for whom English is a second language, and the idea that ALL SPOKEN English sounds exactly the same should show everyone that "Mother's" Latin may not have been "wrong" after all.

***No matter what data we have about WRITTEN Latin, it's not going to be complete since the SPOKEN Latin had to have quite a bit of variety just based on what we know of English today.***

Yikes! I remember moving to Texas and being unable to understand something someone was saying because it SOUNDED so very different than what I had grown up with. Yet we were SPEAKING English. After a comical minute of back and forth, he had to write it down because I couldn't figure out what in the world he was asking me for since his accent made P-I-N sound like P-E-N to my ears. I got him a black one, a blue one and even a pencil, and finally he wrote down PIN and even drew a picture so that I'd get it. We still laugh at this when we think back about it.

Written Latin may be able to tell us how things MAY have sounded to the a particular group of speakers, but not all Latin speakers prounounced things exactly the same way. We THINK we know how Old English sounded based on various written texts, but we also know that not all Old English speakers would have pronounced the words exactly the same--hell, even Middle English has shifts in pronunciation that we know about based on Chaucer.

And then there is the whole Great Vowel Shift that took place in English, so that even though the spelling stayed the same, the way the words were pronounced changed. (Wanna know why the word "weird" has the E before I spelling--it used to be pronounced differently and it actually followed the long A sound rule about I before E accept after C or when sounding like A ....)

Okay, so..... maybe I missed it somewhere, but I'm looking for somebody who has figured out what the wicked step-mom was saying (in latin I'm assuming) over the cup of wine before giving it to Jacob. We seem to have plenty of dialect experts here, so I thought this would be child's play. Has this been covered elsewhere? Am I out of the loop? Is this already common knowledge?

I have heard Church Latin recited, sung, chanted, delivered, droned, ritualized, enacted, dramatized and theatrically interpreted; but I have never heard Latin spoken, colloquially, and as a living language, as it would have been common among the contemporary Roman Empire inhabitants [whose rich language we have tried hard to preserve].

This.

If Mother had spoken what is considered perfect Latin today, would it have changed anything? No. In fact, if I had heard her speak the same Latin I heard during Mass, I would have found that to be just as absurd as Jacob and MiB speaking perfect English with an American accent ;)

Translation? Anyone? I posted something similar in a thread about how bad the rock-wielding wicked step-momster's latin accent was, but I guess this thread would be more applicable.

So, let me get this straight. This is a thread specifically about the pre-sip incantation, now going on to page 3, with no answer. No audio breakdowns. No loose interpretations. What's happened to everybody? Used to, every episode that had a couple of whispers going on, voices running backwards, lines of dialogue in a foreign language without subtitles, I could come here and know that somebody had already figured out what they were saying. Now, so close to the end, a latin incantation said over wine as Jacob is being given the reins as Island protector, something pivotal to the whole story, and nobody has figured out what that incantation means in english???

Translation? Anyone? I posted something similar in a thread about how bad the rock-wielding wicked step-momster's latin accent was, but I guess this thread would be more applicable.

So, let me get this straight. This is a thread specifically about the pre-sip incantation, now going on to page 3, with no answer. No audio breakdowns. No loose interpretations. What's happened to everybody? Used to, every episode that had a couple of whispers going on, voices running backwards, lines of dialogue in a foreign language without subtitles, I could come here and know that somebody had already figured out what they were saying. Now, so close to the end, a latin incantation said over wine as Jacob is being given the reins as Island protector, something pivotal to the whole story, and nobody has figured out what that incantation means in english???

I think the people who used to do that have given up putting that much effort into Lost when (from a certain point of view) that the writers have, in escence, given up.

I took it as kind of a hocus pocus thing. That the real "magic" going on was probably when she touched him, but she may have wanted to make a bigger deal out of it to mask her perceived disappointment that it wasn't NonJacob.

Latin is a dead language. No one knows how to pronounce it. All we have are fragments and what we can infer from to languages that sprang from it. I didn't have any problem with her pronunciation because I don't know what it actually sounds like, and neither does anyone else.

-steve

It was pretty bloody obvious that she was speaking it with an American twang. Really, really awful irrespective of how technically accurate it was (which I wouldn't be in a position to comment on).

When they first switched to English, I really thought for a moment that she was an English speaker that was thrown back in time or something.

I would have thought that the director would have reshot the scenes until he got the right intonation and sound.

To set the record straight, Latin texts survive in considerable amounts, not fragments. While it is true that there are no recordings that provide a record of its pronunciation, Latin phonologists have reconstructed the evolution of Latin (classical, vuglar, ecclesiastical, etc.) based on texts where phonology can be inferred (poetry, puns, etc.) and regional variations in Romance languages that are still evident. Can these reconstructions be proven? No. Are they likely very close? Yes.

Was AJ even close?
... ;)

Also the Catholic Church has been speaking Latin for thousands of years and continues to do so to varying degrees. There is an agreed upon system of pronunciation.

I think the people who used to do that have given up putting that much effort into Lost when (from a certain point of view) that the writers have, in escence, given up.



I think you hit the nail on the head here. My daughter and I have both studied Latin, but I really disliked that scene and don't want to watch it again.

There were markings on the bottom of the cup, but I can't find a screen cap clear enough to show what they may have been.

Everyone who speaks a foreign language on "Lost" speaks perfectly. Sometimes they are native speakers, but sometimes not. The Others that the Losties encountered last season spoke perfect Classical Latin.

But not Mom. Why was her Latin so horrible? Is that some sort of clue to her ancestry, or have the writers stopped worrying about the details?

This was my first beef with the episode; once I heard her speak I said wow way to spend the extra cash on someone I don’t know who speaks Latin well. Maybe all the money is going for the cool special effects this year (lol)

No, we don't know what Classical Latin sounded like, no, we don't know what Classical Latin began to shift its pronunciation, blah blah blah.

AJ spoke it with an American twang. I don't notice anyone complaining about Lela Loren's Latin. It's because she threw in some sort of generic Romance-language accent. In fact, in the history of this show, with all of the people who have spoken Latin, AJ is the only one who's really bothered me. So I don't really think I'm demanding perfection here. Just some effort would have been nice, I guess. If nothing else, she could have imitated Loren.

Nitpicky? Absolutely.

Wrting on the bottom of the cup, eh? That would probably help. Did anyone find a screen cap of the cup yet?

And translating Latin in its spoken form is not my thing. It there a transcript available of the words she spoke so that we can work a literal English translation from that since this seems to be what we really want.

When she first appears they have a brief dialogue in some language (latin perhaps?)

From my high school Latin, with literal translations:

At the pool:
Lady: Aliquid aegra fers? (Do you bear hurt in some way?)
Lady: Dem auxilium tibi. (Let me give help to you.)
Claudia: Gratias donam tibi. (I give thanks to you.)

In the cave:
Lady: A quo nomine appeleris? (By what name are you called?)
Claudia: Mihi nomen est Claudia. (To me the name is Claudia.)

TCT

From my high school Latin, with literal translations:

At the pool:
Lady: Aliquid aegra fers? (Do you bear hurt in some way?)
Lady: Dem auxilium tibi. (Let me give help to you.)
Claudia: Gratias donam tibi. (I give thanks to you.)

In the cave:
Lady: A quo nomine appeleris? (By what name are you called?)
Claudia: Mihi nomen est Claudia. (To me the name is Claudia.)

TCT

Thank you...and the incantation or blessing is...
Any thoughts or translations?

There were markings on the bottom of the cup, but I can't find a screen cap clear enough to show what they may have been.

I noticed that too, and it made me cringe because:

A) silver would tarnish in a humid jungle environment, not be as shiny as that, wouldn't it?
B) I can't believe a handcrafted metalwork cup dating a thousand years or more ago would have a hallmark on it, would it?

I would love to find I'm wrong.

Yeah, I doubt something that old would have markings or a hallmark but it would be great if there was a clear shot of it to check.

Best I could get. They probably could have buffed that out if they were perfectionists. Clearly, they are not.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=20gmtsy&s=5

You can click on the pic to make it bigger.

Is it a triangle inside a flower-like object?

From my high school Latin, with literal translations:

At the pool:
Lady: Aliquid aegra fers? (Do you bear hurt in some way?)
Lady: Dem auxilium tibi. (Let me give help to you.)
Claudia: Gratias donam tibi. (I give thanks to you.)

In the cave:
Lady: A quo nomine appeleris? (By what name are you called?)
Claudia: Mihi nomen est Claudia. (To me the name is Claudia.)

[/quote]

A typo, make that:
Claudia: Gratias donem tibi. (I'd give thanks to you, I'd be grateful.)

A few people have taken a stab at translating the cup ceremony. Scroll down within the link to read a few guesses--I cannot hear her exact words since the shot has her leaning over and there's music, but some of this translation seems to fit. I do think that the Latin word for guardian instead of "long hair or leafy" is used since I thought I heard that originally, but ....

Anybody want to rewatch the scene again and see if we can get a better translation based on what we think it might be? (Sorry, I turn into a pumpkin at 1:00 am--see post time)

http://www.losttalk.net/6x15-across-sea/6865-what-does-adoptive-mother-say.html

Since I couldn't find this here, I've copied this off of a couple other forums. If anyone wants to take a swing at the latin Mother says prior to giving Jacob the wine, please feel free to tack it on here. But, in the absence of that, here are a couple examples of what other people have come up with:

Nam non accipimus hoc quasi vulgarem potionem, sed ut ille sit quasi unus mecum.
Because we don't accept this as a simple potion, but so that he shall be as one with me

non accipimus hoc quasi vulgarem potionem, sed ut ille sit quasi unus mecum
We do not accept this as a common (vulgar) potion but so that it becomes almost as one with me



What I take away from this is it lends itself to the idea that Mother (and now Jacob, presumably) can somehow bend island reality to their will. Or perhaps yet more psychological manipulation of Jacob by Mother. Simply planting the suggestion to make him believe. Much like the idea behind the, "I've made it so you can never hurt each other" which they seem to internalize as MiB later says, "you can't kill me, Jacob".

On the psychological suggestion idea - it might be an interesting thought if somehow the island can make whatever it is you want available to you if you simply believe enough. Might explain Ben's "magic box" thing, or Kate's horse, or Walt's comic book -> polar bear, and on and on. If our losties are capable of manifesting things themselves on the island but they just aren't aware of it or not quite focused enough to control it, it might manifest in unpredictable ways. And it would be interesting to find that Jacob and MiB are no more special than our Losties.

Anyway... back to the latin. Thoughts? Other translations?

Nice. Makes me wonder if Jacob somehow holds a bit of Mother in himself, as Smoky holds a bit of MiB and then a bit of Locke.

Talking about manifestations reminded me of Michael Crichton's Sphere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere_%28film%29).
Eventually, only Harry, Norman, and Beth remain. At this point, they realize that they have all entered the sphere, which has given them the power to manifest their thoughts into reality. As such, all of the disasters that had been plaguing them are the result of manifestations of the worst parts of their own minds. The name "Jerry" turns out to have been erroneously decrypted and is actually spelled "Harry"; it is Harry's subconscience communicating with them through their computer system whenever he is asleep.

[QUOTE=RoyBatty;2348704]
On the psychological suggestion idea - it might be an interesting thought if somehow the island can make whatever it is you want available to you if you simply believe enough. Might explain Ben's "magic box" thing, or Kate's horse, or Walt's comic book -> polar bear, and on and on. If our losties are capable of manifesting things themselves on the island but they just aren't aware of it or not quite focused enough to control it, it might manifest in unpredictable ways. And it would be interesting to find that Jacob and MiB are no more special than our Losties.
[QUOTE]

With this train of thought might be onto something. It would explain alot of the things our Losties have experienced since season 1. Everyhitng from Locke being able to walk, Rose's cancer going into remission, Sun getting pregnant, even Boone being the hero he always dreamed of being.

It gives new meaning to "be careful what ya wish for".

Reminds me of...."We are the cause of our own suffering."

Reminds me of...."We are the cause of our own suffering."

Yup, and it's interesting that some of our Losties died as soon as they either got what they were seeking, or "got" whatever it was they needed to learn about themselves.

Cirque, which Losties do you mean? If I understand you right, you think that some reached their dramatic need and this meant that they could be released, is that right?

Boone -- actually completes his death of dying in a crashing plane (ironic)
Shannon----Accidental Bullet
Ana Lucia----Bullet
Libby----Accidental Bullet
Michael----Bomb
Sayid-----Bomb
Jin----Drowning
Sun----Drowning
Locke----Hanging

(None of those deaths are that fun, are they?)

I guess you could say that Michael completes redeeming himself for killing Ana and Libby, but that was something that happened along the way. I can't see how he completed anything in his original life. I'm not being contrary, I just don't see what you mean.

[quote=Piecar;2348936]Cirque, which Losties do you mean? If I understand you right, you think that some reached their dramatic need and this meant that they could be released, is that right?

Boone -- actually completes his death of dying in a crashing plane (ironic)
Shannon----Accidental Bullet
Ana Lucia----Bullet
Libby----Accidental Bullet
Michael----Bomb
Sayid-----Bomb
Jin----Drowning
Sun----Drowning
Locke----Hanging

quote]

Boone dies when he lets go of his emotional baggage--he was wrapped up in
Shannon, his sister (not biologically, but that doesn't matter) and cannot grow and mature as a human being until he lets her go (the mystical wacky paste Locke used on him triggered the vision of Shannon being killed).

Shannon dies when she stops seeing people as her means to an end--she actually loves Sayid and isn't trying to only use him to get something she wants. She cannot grow and mature as a human being until she learns that love means sacrificing for someone else (not just the physical aspect of sex) and she has to actually love someone other than herself (she goes from being entirely self-centered to someone who seeks to help someone else--it starts w/ Vincent).

Think about the life journey each character has when we are first introduced to him/her and see if the death occurs once the character has gained some self-awareness or compassion or some other aspect of love for others or self.

Pink, that's what I was tlaking about.

For Libby, I don't think the island was done with her. She's someone that stands out as a real unanswered storyline I wish we oculd ahve seen more of. Glad they are doing that in the Alt.

For Ana, she let go of her anger.

Micheal did something his son would have been proud of to make up for killing Ana and Libby.

I don't think the island is in any way done with Locke, and Locke is still learning his lessons.

Jin and Sun found their way back to each other, literally and figurately. The place they started at, by each others side no matter what happened, in love with each other.

I'm sure there are more, but I need a nap to clear my head today.

wow! this is in line with some thoughts I've been carrying since season one, but started to lose faith in!
I'm going with this theory.

I started thinking about this as I was rewatching past seasons. The stories of Boone and Shannon really stood out to me as "lesson learned, you're dead on the island and free" then for some reason the Ben episode really made me think it was on the right track, and on top of that the island time line could influence the Alt.

I do wonder though if it is a bit different for those who are candidates, maybe??

Best I could get. They probably could have buffed that out if they were perfectionists. Clearly, they are not.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=20gmtsy&s=5

You can click on the pic to make it bigger.

Thanks for the screencap Avius. I couldn't make out what it was, but still am of the opinion that unless Mother is from an advanced civilization (like galaxies away, or centuries in the future away?) that cup should have been much more rustic and not bearing a hallmark on the bottom.
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To address the original question of this thread, I've played a bit with the latin phrases and this is what I come up with, using the latin phrase Lostpedia has in it's transcript of the ep:

"Nam non accipimus hoc quasi vulgarem potionem, sed ut ille sit quasi unus me ."

I translate as:
Now, recieve this not as though it were common to possess…..but in order that you may be one with me.

To address the original question of this thread, I've played a bit with the latin phrases and this is what I come up with, using the latin phrase Lostpedia has in it's transcript of the ep:

"Nam non accipimus hoc quasi vulgarem potionem, sed ut ille sit quasi unus me ."

I translate as:
Now, recieve this not as though it were common to possess…..but in order that you may be one with me.

I started a thread with just that one phrase in mind, but it got mashed/combined with your thread and one or two others. Anyway, pretty much the same but there are a few posts after it that are interesting.
Mother's latin phrase prior to drinking wine (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=125827&page=7) (scroll down a couple posts to find it)

And it would be interesting to find that Jacob and MiB are no more special than our Losties.



Well MiB is actually dead, so he really wasn't special (Since what we see is Smokie in his form). But Jacob has been around for hundreds of years... so I think that makes him at least a little bit special (unless we find out that Jacob hasn't actually been around that long).

Well MiB is actually dead, so he really wasn't special (Since what we see is Smokie in his form). But Jacob has been around for hundreds of years... so I think that makes him at least a little bit special (unless we find out that Jacob hasn't actually been around that long).
True. I suppose what I meant was that whatever Jacob is, it isn't anything that isn't achievable by our losties on their own. If only they knew it was so.

Walla walla bem bem
I wanna live to 507
Weema wemma ding ding
I wanna be a smokey... thing

In other words, I don't really believe in Mother's incantation. I think she was just spicing up the show for the sake of it. Or maybe she really did believe in it, but it wasn't really her prestige. It's the islands. Just as it wasn't really Jacobs to give to Richard. Or Jacobs to give to Jack. Jack just needs to let go.

And believe.

I saw it the same as Hunt For Red October. Sean Connery was speaking Russian and the camera closes in on his mouth, then he is speaking English. The audience knows he didn't magically learn to speak English. It was a way for the actors not to learn the whole show/movie in a foreign language.

I always remembered that, it was done really well.