Maybe I missed it, if that is the case Im sorry and dont kill me, but I dont remember any logical explanation about the numbers that Hugo uses to win the lottery. I know they were the same numbers they used to build one of the Dharma places but still that doesnt explain why those same numbers have the magical power to win the lottery.

They showed the origin of the numbers but they never explained why the numbers are magical, also please remind me if I forgot but did they ever explain how the old man from the mental place got the numbers in the first place, was he at the island?

Thanks!

The guy from the mental institution was a member of the US Navy who was posted at a South Pacific listening station. He and his partner heard the numbers being broadcast from the Island and eventually came to believe that they were cursed.

As to why the Numbers were special, the short answer is "magic." Each of those numbers was associated with one of the final six candidates on Jacob's short list of 108 candidates. The names and numbers appeared on both the cave wall and the degrees of the compass in the lighthouse. That's not a "logical" answer, as you put it, but it's the answer that we have.

As to why the Numbers were special, the short answer is "magic." Each of those numbers was associated with one of the final six candidates on Jacob's short list of 108 candidates. The names and numbers appeared on both the cave wall and the degrees of the compass in the lighthouse. That's not a "logical" answer, as you put it, but it's the answer that we have.

I'm pretty sure that, like most other things "explanations" this season, it was made up on the spot by the writers. I sincerely doubt anyone had any clue about "candidates" and their respective numbers on Jacob's magic wheel in the first season.

And since the Kate was number 51 (or 52 can't remember) and she was one of the final FOUR candidates, and three of the candidates who had numbers were dead (Locke, Sayid, and Kwon) I think it's fairly safe to say that the "numbers" are yet another plot line being written off to "magic".

I concur. The mystery gets reduced to the answer "magic". I love the very political technique of telling the fans that those asking for the answer are being obsessive haters. Lost Island, Love It Or Leave It.

They're the core factors of the Valenzetti equation, they answered between seasons 2 and 3 in the ARG. It fits in pretty nicely with the losties each having one assigned to them.

Maybe I missed it, if that is the case Im sorry and dont kill me, but I dont remember any logical explanation about the numbers that Hugo uses to win the lottery. I know they were the same numbers they used to build one of the Dharma places but still that doesnt explain why those same numbers have the magical power to win the lottery.

They showed the origin of the numbers but they never explained why the numbers are magical, also please remind me if I forgot but did they ever explain how the old man from the mental place got the numbers in the first place, was he at the island?

Thanks!

The island did it?

They're the core factors of the Valenzetti equation, they answered between seasons 2 and 3 in the ARG. It fits in pretty nicely with the losties each having one assigned to them.

grahfcard - ITA. They explained the numbers in the ARG and the Valenzetti equation. But they never factored that into the show. The general viewing population knows nothing about that and the only explanation they got was the numbers were some of the "candidates". I had really hoped they would work the numbers and the Valenzetti equation back into the finale, but that looks pretty unlikely. And the Kate ending up being one of the final four kind of negates why the 6 were so special in the first place.

grahf...The losties didn't each have one assigned. The Final Four, for instance, included one who didn't have one of those numbers. And she was offered the job, so seems to count.

True, and I am a bit disappointed they didn't work it in somehow (they had great chances, Dan studying with DHARMA, Chang, pretty much all of last season), but it's certainly a much better answer than, say, the whispers, or the stuff we didn't get any kind of info about. I've been pretty much at peace about the numbers since then.

edit: Piecar, of course, there's just so many numbers but six of the main characters did. Besides, Kate's considered a wild card, but I hope she's just not important enough. Also, as Jacob pointed out, she could get the job, so having a number doesn't make you more special.

I always thought the Valenzeti equation was a pretty cool answer to the numbers. I really thought they would incorporate it into the final season somehow, but it doesnt look like that is happening.

I always thought the Valenzeti equation was a pretty cool answer to the numbers. I really thought they would incorporate it into the final season somehow, but it doesnt look like that is happening.

The Valenzeti equation explains the origin of the numbers, but it doesn't explain why the numbers seem to have a supernatural power tied to them. Nor does it explain why the Others chose it as the code for the Swan computer, or why the numbers were engraved into the side of the hatch, or why the numbers were being broadcast from the island's radio tower.

The Valenzeti equation explains the origin of the numbers, but it doesn't explain why the numbers seem to have a supernatural power tied to them. Nor does it explain why the Others chose it as the code for the Swan computer, or why the numbers were engraved into the side of the hatch, or why the numbers were being broadcast from the island's radio tower.

Not to get all nutso or anything because Darlton has clearly stated that I don't really know what I want from Lost.... but I would have liked the Valenzetti equation and the numbers (factors determining the end of the world) and the six people they assigned them to (Locke, Jack, Sawyer, Hurley, Sayid, and one of the Kwons who we will never know who it was) actually be key factors to the supposed end of the world we have been told about. And the variables being people, they (one or more) could change something with their character that would inevitably change the fate of the "end of the world". That's where I thought the show was going a half of a season ago. Now... not so much....

But I am a stupid hater that doesn't understand the big picture...

The Valenzeti equation explains the origin of the numbers, but it doesn't explain why the numbers seem to have a supernatural power tied to them. Nor does it explain why the Others chose it as the code for the Swan computer, or why the numbers were engraved into the side of the hatch, or why the numbers were being broadcast from the island's radio tower.
The equation IS their origin. It's like asking what the origin of pi or some other such number is. They were broadcast so the outside DHARMA folk would know if the guys on the island somehow succeeded in changing one of them and saving the world with the unique properties of the island. They were used for the Swan computer and hatch probably partly because of coincidence, partly fate-as-the-numbers working itself in, partly the DHARMA being focused on them and partly because the button brought the end of the world, like the equation.
You might as well ask why the team in the airport had jerseys with the numbers on them or why it was Oceanic 815.

Not to get all nutso or anything because Darlton has clearly stated that I don't really know what I want from Lost.... but I would have liked the Valenzetti equation and the numbers (factors determining the end of the world) and the six people they assigned them to (Locke, Jack, Sawyer, Hurley, Sayid, and one of the Kwons who we will never know who it was) actually be key factors to the supposed end of the world we have been told about. And the variables being people, they (one or more) could change something with their character that would inevitably change the fate of the "end of the world". That's where I thought the show was going a half of a season ago. Now... not so much....

But I am a stupid hater that doesn't understand the big picture...

To quote Daffy Duck, you're despicable. :biggrin:

The Adam and Eve skeletons received such a great amount of focus this season, first in the Lighthouse episode and then in Across the Sea, including a S1 flashback at the most dramatic part of the episode. Of course, with the time travel and ancient history of the island, we know that the skeletons could've been anyone, and the revelation of their identities didn't move the story forward one bit.

Meanwhile, introducing the excellently-conceptualized Valenzetti Equation and Hanso Foundation tie-in from the Lost Experience would've meant a huge payoff for the viewership, especially with a couple of tweaks to integrate it with the overall arc as it has unfolded. Here’s just one way they could’ve gone. During Faraday’s big speech about throwing a boulder into the timeline stream, he could’ve mentioned that his extensive studies of relativistic physics (which focused on the constants) included time in state-side DHARMA land. There, his access to the privileged DHARMA knowledgebase led him to Valenzetti’s work (brief summary of the couple of sentences about Valenzetti in the Sri Lanka video), where the talk of needing to change one core factor to avoid an inevitable world-shattering catastrophe jarred Faraday to realize that the variables – people – and not the constants needed to shake things up in a big way. So what’s that, two minutes of on-screen time?


Later, if the writers really wanted to go crazy, they could’ve included something like this in last episode’s fireside chat in place of the “You were a mommy, Kate” bit:

Jacob: As much as my nemesis and I each manipulated time to our advantage, it became clear that our separate efforts were approaching an inevitable collision point. Somehow, the fact of this bled into the outside world and helped bring the DHARMA Initiative to the island.

Sawyer: I don’t know about no cosmic convergence, Jake. All I know is that nutjobs like Radzinski had big plans for that light of yours.

Jacob: Some were only after the powers within the island, but DHARMA’s leader Alvar Hanso had learned from the world’s top scientists of Earth’s inevitable path to destruction. Hanso was guided here amidst his quest to change that path by any means necessary. It was at the time that DHARMA arrived that I amplified my gaze on each of you.

Hurley (nudging Jack): The mirrors, dude! Whoa.

Jack (laughs to himself): Yeah, you watched us and numbered us with your compass contraption. What good did any of that do?

Jacob: The scientific world had assigned six numbers to represent the core environmental factors that needed to be changed to avert disaster. I came to believe over time that it wasn’t factors outside of man but what resides inside of man that would make the difference in the end. My nemesis had argued for centuries that man and his self-destructive actions were constant and unchanging. The world needed him to be wrong, because it’s man that has to be able to change the world’s course. Jack, six numbers I’d assigned to positions on the compass turned out to be the same six numbers given by the scientists to those core factors.

Hurley: 4, 8, 15… (Jacob smiles and holds up his hand for Hurley to stop.)

Jacob: Those numbers also came to represent the last six candidates to protect this island. It’s either coincidence or fate... wouldn’t you say so, Jack?



None of that would've taken too much time to work into the story, and something like that would've gone a long way to taking care of a major plot point for the past 6 years.

Lost Redux (http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/watch_with_kristin/b122630_lost_redux_who_causes_incident.html#ixzz0o ZPdfgBG)
This one goes out to all the Lostpedians out there. Damon said, "Here's the story with numbers. The Hanso Foundation that started the Dharma Initiative hired this guy Valenzetti to basically work on this equation to determine what was the probability of the world ending in the wake of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Valenzetti basically deduced that it was 100 percent within the next 27 years, so the Hanso Foundation started the Dharma Initiative in an effort to try to change the variables in the equation so that mankind wouldn't wipe it itself out." This information, in more convoluted form, was leaked out via the online games rather than explained on the show itself, said Damon, because, "That would be the worst thing ever. We have to make the show for the hard-core fans who care about the numbers, but we also have to make it for my mom, who just wants Sawyer to take his shirt off."


Regarding the approaching final season and the possible fan reaction to the accompanying reveals, Damon said, "There isn't a perfect way to end the show, but the end inevitably approaches, and so the show has to start answering more and more questions. To me, the greatest thing about Lost, just in terms of writing it, was that [over the years] the show could ask a question, and everyone [watching] could say 'Here's what I think the answer to that is.' And next year we're basically going to spend the entire season telling you you're wrong. 'Here's the actual answer to that question.' And you're going to say, 'S--t, my answer was actually much better!' " Have you been satisfied or displeased with the answers we've gotten so far?

Lost Redux (http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/watch_with_kristin/b122630_lost_redux_who_causes_incident.html#ixzz0o ZPdfgBG)

Yeah, my mom likes shirtless Sawyer too, but she's not averse to book-learnin' neither and could actually follow a straightforward explanation like the Lost Experience gave or like what I scribbled out.


Maybe at the fireside, they should've broken it down to an even more basic level for moms everywhere:

Jacob: I'm sorry for some of what had to be done to protect the island.

Kate: Like getting innocent people like Sun and Jin killed? (Glares at Jacob, freckles burning with rage.)

Jacob: You know, y’all got your questions, but here’s one I’ve got: what did you guys ever see in this chick? I thought MY mom was nuts! Check which way the possession arrow’s pointing before either of you makes your move tonight!

(Whispers from the Island erupt into gales of laughter.) Go Jacob! Go Jacob!

Jacob: Anyhoo, before I was so rudely interrupted…

The Valenzetti equation would have been a good explanation, but then they had to use those same numbers for everything (ugh...), so much that it completely ruined the mystique and the explanation they had given themselves (with Valenzetti proposing a scientific explanation, while having it randomly appear everywhere suggesting a more magical connection).

Well, Smash. That's what it boils down to. They retrofitted the answer to the phenomenon, not the other way around. It was a cute gimmick, so those who notice things could go "ooooh" I think specifically of the moment that Hurley ran by the girls soccer team and all of them had The Numbers on. Cute!

But I was quite willing to acccept that it connected to Jacob and his arbitrary choice at the Lighthouse. That choice formed these numbers. I could suspend disbelief there. Then the ruined it this week with the "it's just chalk, gang!" reveal. Back to Cute!

I always hoped they would work the Valenzetti equation in, but it's not really the origin is it? I mean, unless you think that Jacob's 'thing for numbers' just happened to include the valenzetti coefficients?

Clearly, we're meant to understand that the origins of the numbers are somehow with Jacob, and somehow they also happened to be the coefficients in the equation, and cursed lottery numbers, etc.

The numbers were one of the first things that intrigued me about LOST and I'm disappointed they didn't do this one better.

The numbers boil down to the audience driving what's important.

From Sept 2005:

...when the writers came up with those bad luck lotto numbers, they initially thought to put them on Rousseau's map just because they wanted to see a confrontation between Hurley and the crazy Frenchwoman - not because they had some sort of grand numerological plan. "We never expected the numbers to become this phenomenon," Cuse says. "When one of the producers came to our office and gave us a coffee mug [he bought on eBay] with the numbers on it, we were like, 'This is insane.'"Source (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1100410,00.html) (a preview of season two -- fascinating to go back to)

On the one hand, this shows that some things weren't planned from the start. On the other hand, it shows that the audience isn't always right when they see something and assume it's important.

I don't know, maybe remembering this from five years ago and knowing how these things develop is why I'm more forgiving when it comes to unanswered questions than some others.

we only notice the numbers everywhere because they're "the numbers". anytime they show numbers that aren't "the numbers", people go "well they could've used the numbers there!". really, the numbers have been explained pretty well as far as:

- six variables re: valenzetti
- therefore they were broadcast until they were changed
- lenny heard the broadcast, went insane, hurley got the numbers from him
- hurley played the numbers and they JUST HAPPENED TO BE THE WINNING LOTTERY NUMBERS. what more explanation do you want? hanso himself controlling the lottery? it was random. there's nothing more to it. random coincidental fate, whatever. people snarkily dismiss it as "magic", when really...it's just coincidence that made for an interesting plot point and reveal @ the end of hurley's ep.

- they're also the numbers input into the swan computer (again, more-so for plot purposes but we can rationalize why DHARMA would have chosen those numbers when they needed a code for the end-of-the-world computer)
- therefore the same #s are also written on the very hatch that contains this computer. yes, the computer did not serve that function when the hatch was built, so i suppose i should have reversed these bullet points. either way, it was just a fun plot point.

people dismiss the numbers as "magic" but they don't have "magic" powers. why do they appear everywhere? because the writers put them there for fun, coincidence, fate, whatever. it's a story. nobody says "wow why do we see the number 7 everywhere", because nobody would notice it. it's not one of "the numbers". yet i'll bet if you go back and rewatch the show you'll see it all over the place. is it magic too? no, it's a freakin' NUMBER. we live our life surrounded by numbers. they're NUMBERS. :biggrin:

To quote Daffy Duck, you're despicable. :biggrin:

Later, if the writers really wanted to go crazy, they could’ve included something like this in last episode’s fireside chat in place of the “You were a mommy, Kate” bit:

Jacob: As much as my nemesis and I each manipulated time to our advantage, it became clear that our separate efforts were approaching an inevitable collision point. Somehow, the fact of this bled into the outside world and helped bring the DHARMA Initiative to the island.

Sawyer: I don’t know about no cosmic convergence, Jake. All I know is that nutjobs like Radzinski had big plans for that light of yours.

Jacob: Some were only after the powers within the island, but DHARMA’s leader Alvar Hanso had learned from the world’s top scientists of the world’s inevitable path to destruction. Hanso was guided here amidst his quest to change that path by any means necessary. It was at the time that DHARMA arrived that I started to watch each of you.

Hurley (nudging Jack): The mirrors, dude! Whoa.

Jack (laughs to himself): Yeah, you watched us and numbered us with your compass contraption. What good did any of that do?

Jacob: The scientific world had assigned six numbers to represent the environmental factors that needed to be changed to avert disaster. I came to believe over time that it wasn’t factors outside of man but inside of man that would make the difference in the end. My nemesis had argued for centuries that man and his self-destructive actions were constant and unchanging. The world needed him to be wrong, because it’s man that has to be able to change the world’s course. Jack, six numbers I’d assigned to positions on the compass turned out to be the same six numbers given by the scientists to those factors. Those numbers also came to represent the last six candidates to protect this island. It’s either coincidence or fate... wouldn’t you say so, Jack?



None of that would've taken too much time to work into the story, and something like that would've gone a long way to taking care of a major plot point for the past 6 years.

That would have been incredible, and answered at least two or three major Lost questions. Well done.

Jacob: As much as my nemesis and I each manipulated time to our advantage, it became clear that our separate efforts were approaching an inevitable collision point. Somehow, the fact of this bled into the outside world and helped bring the DHARMA Initiative to the island.

Sawyer: I don’t know about no cosmic convergence, Jake. All I know is that nutjobs like Radzinski had big plans for that light of yours.

Jacob: Some were only after the powers within the island, but DHARMA’s leader Alvar Hanso had learned from the world’s top scientists of the world’s inevitable path to destruction. Hanso was guided here amidst his quest to change that path by any means necessary. It was at the time that DHARMA arrived that I started to watch each of you.

Hurley (nudging Jack): The mirrors, dude! Whoa.

Jack (laughs to himself): Yeah, you watched us and numbered us with your compass contraption. What good did any of that do?

Jacob: The scientific world had assigned six numbers to represent the environmental factors that needed to be changed to avert disaster. I came to believe over time that it wasn’t factors outside of man but inside of man that would make the difference in the end. My nemesis had argued for centuries that man and his self-destructive actions were constant and unchanging. The world needed him to be wrong, because it’s man that has to be able to change the world’s course. Jack, six numbers I’d assigned to positions on the compass turned out to be the same six numbers given by the scientists to those factors. Those numbers also came to represent the last six candidates to protect this island. It’s either coincidence or fate... wouldn’t you say so, Jack?


Crinkly, this is better than a lot of what's been written into the show lately. For my own piece of mind, I think I'm just gonna forward pretending that this was a big part of what Jacob told them around the campfire. Thanks! (And think about joining the Screen Writers Guild, will ya?)

I am afraid that we've already gotten all the information we are going to get about the numbers. The whole thing about the Valenzetti equation was an interesting side bar, but it was not part of the show and most of the audience did not play the ARG and probably knows nothing about it. Trying to pull it all in through a few lines of script in WTDF would have had most of the audience just scratching their heads. Also, the only character who probably really cared about the numbers was Hurley, and from his standpoint all he needed to know about them was that they were cursed. He never seemed interesting in pursuing their meaning after his conversation with Rousseau in Season 1.

I still like the explanation from the first season the best: "They're just numbers." Obviously they are more than that but we have to have something to ponder after the show ends, don't we?

I am afraid that we've already gotten all the information we are going to get about the numbers. The whole thing about the Valenzetti equation was an interesting side bar, but it was not part of the show and most of the audience did not play the ARG and probably knows nothing about it. Trying to pull it all in through a few lines of script in WTDF would have had most of the audience just scratching their heads.

Again, just a few minutes spread throughout the past two seasons in places like the fireside chat and Faraday's pebble/boulder speech would've enlightened most of the audience sufficiently without alienating any part of the audience that doesn't want to spend hours dissecting Casimir effects and such.

Enough of a reasonable breakdown of the numbers issues was already accomplished in the Sri Lanka vid and could've been seemlessly integrated during 'The Incident' (perhaps at the expense of the not-so-profound Juliet parental divorce flashback) by Faraday attributing his time at DHARMA and exposure to the Val Equation (with its requirement that core factors be changed or else) as part of the process that got him thinking about humans as variables. That would've been more than enough setup for the envisioned fireside chat that addressed the numbers in the manner that Darlton had already chosen to explain them, if heretofore outside of the TV show.

I think the audience wouldn't have been overwhelmed or confused in such a scenario, but instead would've welcomed it as things draw to a conclusion.

Again, just a few minutes spread throughout the past two seasons in places like the fireside chat and Faraday's pebble/boulder speech would've enlightened most of the audience sufficiently without alienating any part of the audience that doesn't want to spend hours dissecting Casimir effects and such.

Enough of a reasonable breakdown of the numbers issues was already accomplished in the Sri Lanka vid and could've been seemlessly integrated during 'The Incident' (perhaps at the expense of the not-so-profound Juliet parental divorce flashback) by Faraday attributing his time at DHARMA and exposure to the Val Equation (with its requirement that core factors be changed or else) as part of the process that got him thinking about humans as variables. That would've been more than enough setup for the envisioned fireside chat that addressed the numbers in the manner that Darlton had already chosen to explain them, if heretofore outside of the TV show.

I think the audience wouldn't have been overwhelmed or confused in such a scenario, but instead would've welcomed it as things draw to a conclusion.

Seems too sci-fi for me. So now the show is digressing to talk about changing numbers to save the world? Wasn't puishing a button and stopping Smokey enough? I doubt that most of the audience cares about an explanation of the numbers beyond what's already been given, but that's just MHO.

A few years ago, in an interview Lindelof did say that the numbers were not selected at random and that they would be explained but it would be giving up too much of the story to explain them at that time.

But he changed his mind. In a recent interview in Wired magazine, Cuse and Lindelof said they were finished with the numbers.

Crinkly, I agree that the Valenzetti equation could have been explored on the show to good effect. It would have been interesting to see exactly what kind of experiments Dharma was going to do to try to change the constants.

If the experiments were physical, the constants would have to be derivable from things like the mass of the electron or the gravitational constant. The only way Dharma could change those would be to change the way the fundamental laws work. Maybe they were successful. I won't go into details but I can imagine a scenario where those numbers would pop up all the time in such a changed world. The only problem is that everyone would know it, so Hurley would have had to share his prize with a lot of other people.

If the experiments were social, then the constants would have something to do with human behavoir and the assignment of numbers to people, or archetypes of people could make sense.

In either case, there would be some great ways to tie the whole thing up. But its one of those things you need to show in scenes, like with a devoted Chang-centric, or maybe scenes spread over several episodes. To have a character recite info like this would be boring and pandering like the whispers description, which I thought sucked very hard.

In the meantime, I'm going to assume they got the numbers from Rambaldi.

A few years ago, in an interview Lindelof did say that the numbers were not selected at random and that they would be explained but it would be giving up too much of the story to explain them at that time.

But he changed his mind. In a recent interview in Wired magazine, Cuse and Lindelof said they were finished with the numbers.

Want to know why he changed his mind? Because the numbers were chosen at random, and when they were chosen, they had no idea what they were going to do with them. I don't criticize Darlton for making it up on the fly, but I do criticize them for pretending like they've had some master plan all along.

They are all numbers retired by the New York Yankees. So technically they were not chosen at random, although that doesn't mean much for the show.

4 - Lou Gehrig

8 - Yogi Berra

15 - Thurman Munson

16 - Whitey Ford

23 - Don Mattingly

42 - Jackie Robinson

I'm still not sure why fake science is better than magic. Why is a mathematical equation that couldn't really exist more acceptable than a Latin incantation?

I do see the point of the Valenzetti thing tying different parts together. But frankly, I don't like that. I like a sprawling and epic backstory. The Egyptian stuff and Henry Gale and the Others' funeral rites -- that all points to an enormous history. Making it all work together like clockwork shrinks the Island and is, in my opinion, less realistic.

I liked it better when I didn't know what the Clone Wars were and Tatooine was just one planet of thousands, and I detest the Tales of Mos Eisley type books that make everyone we ever saw on screen vital to the central story. I'm glad the Black Lodge got to remain mysterious and unexplainable. Sherlock Holmes is great, but I prefer to watch the Twilight Zone.

Personally, I more and more am thinking that the major questions and issues will not exactly be "answered" in the finale - nor will we actually learn what the "light" is - it's truly like going to a Leo Kottke concert and listening to him ramble on in a stream of conciousness, beginning with a story and then going twenty other places with it, and finally realizing he has to tie it all together when he's done talking... or Garrison Keillor with Lake Woebegone.... we may all look back on this as one big waste of time or a con, I don't know.

pov, the Yankees retired nine other numbers you failed to mention. The other numbers reduce your point to a sort-of-interesting coincidence.

I'm still not sure why fake science is better than magic. Why is a mathematical equation that couldn't really exist more acceptable than a Latin incantation?

I have no preference. Magic would be just as good as fake science. The problem is we don't have either.

Don't mistake Yankee fandom for coincidence. :) I was just pointing out that they weren't selected at random. I assume that TPTB wanted six, so they chose their favorites.

Frankly, I agree with Darlton that any further explanation of the numbers would be largely irrelevant to the story line at this point. And if they tried to sneek in references to Valenzetti equations and such I don't see how they could do so without it looking contrived, as well as blowing over the heads of most of the fans (myself included). Leaving something to ponder is not necessarily bad. I think a decent explanation is that Jacob subconsciously influenced the Dharma Initiative to broadcast the numbers, thinking there was some other purpose behind it, but in reality so that through a string of events Hurley would hear them in the institution, use them to play and win the lottery, attribute to them everything bad that happened to him, fly to Australia to seek the guy that heard them and then return on Flight 815 to crash on the Island. Beyond that, they're just numbers. This explanation fits within the logic of the show and doesn't require convoluted references to fake science from an ARG that most fans did not follow.

The numbers and their magical resolution are the least of this shows problems. I am absolutely beside myself with the "rules". They make no sense, yet govern every action on our show. Ben couldn't kill Widmore because of the rules in season 4, but last episode he did just that without any explanation. Now someone is going to tell me that the Ben/Widmore rules are somehow "different rules" even though there has been no indication that there are different rules at all. So the numbers...well that's just magic.
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I'm still not sure why fake science is better than magic. Why is a mathematical equation that couldn't really exist more acceptable than a Latin incantation?

We just want a logic so we can follow along. Call it fake science or whatever, but we just want something NOT RANDOM. Magic has become a crutch and easy way out for the writers this season. The ash works to keep the man in black out, except around the temple where you need ash and a mysterious japanese guy. Why? Magic.

The numbers and their magical resolution are the least of this shows problems. I am absolutely beside myself with the "rules". They make no sense, yet govern every action on our show. Ben couldn't kill Widmore because of the rules in season 4, but last episode he did just that without any explanation. Now someone is going to tell me that the Ben/Widmore rules are somehow "different rules" even though there has been no indication that there are different rules at all. So the numbers...well that's just magic.
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We just want a logic so we can follow along. Call it fake science or whatever, but we just want something NOT RANDOM. Magic has become a crutch and easy way out for the writers this season. The ash works to keep the man in black out, except around the temple where you need ash and a mysterious japanese guy. Why? Magic.

I have to agree with you about the Rules, at least based on what we've seen so far. Maybe it will turn out that Widmore is not dead, and in fact that Ben knew he wouldn't die when he shot him. Or maybe that particular rule only applied off the Island. But there could be other explanations. I was also thinking that maybe since Jacob made the rules, they ceased to apply after he died, but that wouldn't explain why fLocke still couldn't kill the candidates - unless it did cease to apply - we don't really know if the bomb would have gone off even if Sawyer didn't remove the wires). Or maybe the rules aren't incontrovertible natural laws as such, but rather rules that can be broken if one is willing to accept the consequences (remember Widmore "changed the rules" when Alex was shot).

I'm pretty sure that, like most other things "explanations" this season, it was made up on the spot by the writers. I sincerely doubt anyone had any clue about "candidates" and their respective numbers on Jacob's magic wheel in the first season.


great addition to the thread. instead of giving him and answer you feel the need to try and derail the thread into things you did not like about the show. how about next time, we stay on topic.
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The numbers and their magical resolution are the least of this shows problems. I am absolutely beside myself with the "rules". They make no sense, yet govern every action on our show. Ben couldn't kill Widmore because of the rules in season 4, but last episode he did just that without any explanation. Now someone is going to tell me that the Ben/Widmore rules are somehow "different rules" even though there has been no indication that there are different rules at all. So the numbers...well that's just magic.
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We just want a logic so we can follow along. Call it fake science or whatever, but we just want something NOT RANDOM. Magic has become a crutch and easy way out for the writers this season. The ash works to keep the man in black out, except around the temple where you need ash and a mysterious japanese guy. Why? Magic.


how about instead of trying to turn this into a gripe session why you don't like the show we actually stay on topic. this thread has nothing to do with the rules. so stop getting off topic to complain about the show. stay on topic.

I have no problem with the ARG being used to explain things. I believe that the future of television is that it will be tied to the internet in some way. There was an opportunity for Lost to be a pioneer in this new way to deliver a story. Traditionally, television has been limited by what an audience can follow week in and week out. Lost has been blessed with message boards, episodes online, and other resources like Lostpedia because they allow viewers to extend their experience past the one hour of viewing weekly. The ARG was a wonderful way to add layers of complexity to the show without trying to make it fit into a teleplay. Let's face it, an episode called "Horace and Dr. Chang explain the equation" would fall flat. If there is one thing that Lost could have benefited from it would have been more resources such as mobisodes, ARGs, and video games that could be considered canon.

Don't mistake Yankee fandom for coincidence. :) I was just pointing out that they weren't selected at random. I assume that TPTB wanted six, so they chose their favorites.


My understanding is they picked numbers already in the show I.E. the flight number and 42 was a hat tip to Hitchhikers Guide to the Universe.

To quote Daffy Duck, you're despicable. :biggrin:

The Adam and Eve skeletons received such a great amount of focus this season, first in the Lighthouse episode and then in Across the Sea, including a S1 flashback at the most dramatic part of the episode. Of course, with the time travel and ancient history of the island, we know that the skeletons could've been anyone, and the revelation of their identities didn't move the story forward one bit.

Meanwhile, introducing the excellently-conceptualized Valenzetti Equation and Hanso Foundation tie-in from the Lost Experience would've meant a huge payoff for the viewership, especially with a couple of tweaks to integrate it with the overall arc as it has unfolded. Here’s just one way they could’ve gone. During Faraday’s big speech about throwing a boulder into the timeline stream, he could’ve mentioned that his extensive studies of relativistic physics (which focused on the constants) included time in state-side DHARMA land. There, his access to the privileged DHARMA knowledgebase led him to Valenzetti’s work (brief summary of the couple of sentences about Valenzetti in the Sri Lanka video), where the talk of needing to change one core factor to avoid an inevitable world-shattering catastrophe jarred Faraday to realize that the variables – people – and not the constants needed to shake things up in a big way. So what’s that, two minutes of on-screen time?


Later, if the writers really wanted to go crazy, they could’ve included something like this in last episode’s fireside chat in place of the “You were a mommy, Kate” bit:

Jacob: As much as my nemesis and I each manipulated time to our advantage, it became clear that our separate efforts were approaching an inevitable collision point. Somehow, the fact of this bled into the outside world and helped bring the DHARMA Initiative to the island.

Sawyer: I don’t know about no cosmic convergence, Jake. All I know is that nutjobs like Radzinski had big plans for that light of yours.

Jacob: Some were only after the powers within the island, but DHARMA’s leader Alvar Hanso had learned from the world’s top scientists of the world’s inevitable path to destruction. Hanso was guided here amidst his quest to change that path by any means necessary. It was at the time that DHARMA arrived that I started to watch each of you.

Hurley (nudging Jack): The mirrors, dude! Whoa.

Jack (laughs to himself): Yeah, you watched us and numbered us with your compass contraption. What good did any of that do?

Jacob: The scientific world had assigned six numbers to represent the environmental factors that needed to be changed to avert disaster. I came to believe over time that it wasn’t factors outside of man but inside of man that would make the difference in the end. My nemesis had argued for centuries that man and his self-destructive actions were constant and unchanging. The world needed him to be wrong, because it’s man that has to be able to change the world’s course. Jack, six numbers I’d assigned to positions on the compass turned out to be the same six numbers given by the scientists to those factors. Those numbers also came to represent the last six candidates to protect this island. It’s either coincidence or fate... wouldn’t you say so, Jack?



None of that would've taken too much time to work into the story, and something like that would've gone a long way to taking care of a major plot point for the past 6 years.

I wish you were Darlton. I am so looking forward to tonight's finale, but I can't shake the feeling that they're going to be vague about too many things and never answer any of the longstanding questions. The whole "let the show be what it means to each viewer" is a cop-out on the case of the writers. I love that we've all had our chance to theorize about what's going on with the show, but at some point I want to know what the writers were thinking.

Furthermore, the whole Valenzeti equation being a part of the numbers is a great start, but it was never part of the show cannon. And I hated that they NEVER referenced any of the stuff from the off-season online content when it was supposed to be part of cannon. I'm not sure what the whole point is now, because knowing Jack was supposed to die in the first episode and now he's Jacob's replacement leaves me dubious that they knew EVERYTHING going in, but there's so much they haven't addressed that I feel they won't do tonight. And I swear to whatever deity is listening, if they play Journey and cut to black at the end, I will throw a shoe at my TV. :biggrin:

great addition to the thread. instead of giving him and answer you feel the need to try and derail the thread into things you did not like about the show. how about next time, we stay on topic.
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how about instead of trying to turn this into a gripe session why you don't like the show we actually stay on topic. this thread has nothing to do with the rules. so stop getting off topic to complain about the show. stay on topic.

Mrs. Lindelof, shouldn't you be watching scenes where Sawyer has his shirt off? ;)

To quote Daffy Duck, you're despicable. :biggrin:

The Adam and Eve skeletons received such a great amount of focus this season, first in the Lighthouse episode and then in Across the Sea, including a S1 flashback at the most dramatic part of the episode. Of course, with the time travel and ancient history of the island, we know that the skeletons could've been anyone, and the revelation of their identities didn't move the story forward one bit.

Meanwhile, introducing the excellently-conceptualized Valenzetti Equation and Hanso Foundation tie-in from the Lost Experience would've meant a huge payoff for the viewership, especially with a couple of tweaks to integrate it with the overall arc as it has unfolded. Here’s just one way they could’ve gone. During Faraday’s big speech about throwing a boulder into the timeline stream, he could’ve mentioned that his extensive studies of relativistic physics (which focused on the constants) included time in state-side DHARMA land. There, his access to the privileged DHARMA knowledgebase led him to Valenzetti’s work (brief summary of the couple of sentences about Valenzetti in the Sri Lanka video), where the talk of needing to change one core factor to avoid an inevitable world-shattering catastrophe jarred Faraday to realize that the variables – people – and not the constants needed to shake things up in a big way. So what’s that, two minutes of on-screen time?


Later, if the writers really wanted to go crazy, they could’ve included something like this in last episode’s fireside chat in place of the “You were a mommy, Kate” bit:

Jacob: As much as my nemesis and I each manipulated time to our advantage, it became clear that our separate efforts were approaching an inevitable collision point. Somehow, the fact of this bled into the outside world and helped bring the DHARMA Initiative to the island.

Sawyer: I don’t know about no cosmic convergence, Jake. All I know is that nutjobs like Radzinski had big plans for that light of yours.

Jacob: Some were only after the powers within the island, but DHARMA’s leader Alvar Hanso had learned from the world’s top scientists of the world’s inevitable path to destruction. Hanso was guided here amidst his quest to change that path by any means necessary. It was at the time that DHARMA arrived that I started to watch each of you.

Hurley (nudging Jack): The mirrors, dude! Whoa.

Jack (laughs to himself): Yeah, you watched us and numbered us with your compass contraption. What good did any of that do?

Jacob: The scientific world had assigned six numbers to represent the environmental factors that needed to be changed to avert disaster. I came to believe over time that it wasn’t factors outside of man but inside of man that would make the difference in the end. My nemesis had argued for centuries that man and his self-destructive actions were constant and unchanging. The world needed him to be wrong, because it’s man that has to be able to change the world’s course. Jack, six numbers I’d assigned to positions on the compass turned out to be the same six numbers given by the scientists to those factors. Those numbers also came to represent the last six candidates to protect this island. It’s either coincidence or fate... wouldn’t you say so, Jack?



None of that would've taken too much time to work into the story, and something like that would've gone a long way to taking care of a major plot point for the past 6 years.

I love this post...sorry, I had to say something. THIS is how many of the questions could have been answered that were not. In similar ways throughout the final season like the campfire scene when Jack became "like" Jacob...woulda' been nice for him to finally do some 'splainin!