I think people are getting a little hung up on the idea of the crash. I honestly believe the crash was construct to transition the characters from the real world to the green world, like how the storm in The Tempest crashes the boat onto Prospero's Island.

I wrote out my theory on Lost of looking at it as a literary work. It's too long to put into a post here, so I posted it on my blog.

http://www.mattunedited.com/2010/05/english-major-breaks-down-lost.html

I think there are many things left up to interpretation (more than there should have been), but this isn't one of them. Christian explained it fairly clearly.

I don't think Christan cleared up that much actually, in part because he said "Everything that ever happened to you was real." But clearly either he was lying, because the sideways world wasn't real, or had a different interpretation of what "Real" was.

Also, there is no way that many people could survive a plane breaking up in flight like that, no possible way. Look at the Afriqiyah Airways crash earlier this month, but all accounts it was far more gentle crash than what happened to the Losties and only one person survived that, and everyone is calling that miracle. No way do 48 people survive a mid-air breakup, including several who were just deposited on the beach or in a bamboo field with a few minor injuries. No way.

I suppose you could argue that Jacob caught them all somehow, but since Jacob has God-like powers, he really does serve as deus ex machina for anything that happened throughout the course of the show and can justify any theory.

Oh good lord. Watch the scene again. He specifically tells him what the sideways is, and specifically tells him that everything including the on-island events happened.

The plane crashed.

Desmond was in the hatch.

Jacob existed.

Jack plugged the hole back up.

Kate, Sawyer, and crew lived happily ever after until they died of old age (or however they died)

The bomb went off and, coupled with the failsafe, completed the second end of the time loop to allow for the avoidance of paradox.

The series is pretty explicit in all of that. Watch it again.

The alt timeline was always the afterlife. But then when Juliet hit the bomb, nothing happened I guess.

But the island happened, but everyone meet up again in the afterlife. Eventually Kate, Claire etc. off-island lived a long life and joined the rest, same with the survivors on the island ben, hurley, rose etc.

The bomb went off and, coupled with the failsafe, completed the second end of the time loop to allow for the avoidance of paradox.

The series is pretty explicit in all of that. Watch it again.

Where was the dialogue that said the bomb went off? I do think it went off, only I think it was when Desmond turned the fail safe. The bomb did not go off when Juliet hit it, IMO. That is why the Swan was completed and button was pushed. The covered the EM with concrete and installed jughead as a failsafe. WHH

Uhm, characters lie, obscure the truth and hold back information, almost every character did that throughout the course of Lost so there's no real reason to believe that Christian was being honest.

In order to believe that everything was "Real" you need to accept that Jacob had enough precognitive ability to see exactly when Desmond and Kelvin would fight, could manipulate events to get all of the candidates on the plane, cause the plane to have a mechanical failure and change course so it flew directly over the island, somehow pull off the miraculous safe landing of 48 people but didn't have the power to know which one of them would replace him... sure, yeah, that's entirely possible for God.

Also, if Jacob collected all the survivors on to the plane did he also collect all of the dead as well?

At some point either Jacob had God-like abilities. or he didn't, or Jacob was in fact God.

Where was the dialoge that said the bomb went off? I do think it went off, only I think it was when Desmond turned the fail safe. The bomb did not go off when Juliet hit it, IMO. That is why the Swan was completed and button was pushed. The covered the EM with concrete and installed jughead as a failsafe.

There was a whole sequence where everyone's ears were ringing and Kate was blown up into a tree, indicating an explosion that was loud enough to temporarily damage everyone's hearing. I know the immediate argument is, well, then why was Juliet still alive? It's a valid question, and the only thing I can theoretically throw forward is that the electromagnetic pulse interacted with the exotic matter for one last time jump, and since Juliet was closest to the pocket, she jumped nanoseconds before she got vaporized. Juliet aside, the Miles/Kate sequence should be more than enough indicator to prove the bomb went off. People did bleed from the nose and have headaches in time jumps, but there has been no prior example of ringing ears and disorientation (other than the disorientation experienced by the dying such as the case with Minkowski, Charlotte, and (almost) Desmond.).

There was a whole sequence where everyone's ears were ringing and Kate was blown up into a tree, indicating an explosion that was loud enough to temporarily damage everyone's hearing. I know the immediate argument is, well, then why was Juliet still alive? It's a valid question, and the only thing I can theoretically throw forward is that the electromagnetic pulse interacted with the exotic matter for one last time jump, and since Juliet was closest to the pocket, she jumped nanoseconds before she got vaporized. Juliet aside, the Miles/Kate sequence should be more than enough indicator to prove the bomb went off. People did bleed from the nose and have headaches in time jumps, but there has been no prior example of ringing ears and disorientation (other than the disorientation experienced by the dying such as the case with Minkowski, Charlotte, and (almost) Desmond.).

People where holding there ears right before Desmond turned the key also and I beleive that was a minor event compared to the "incident".

You could be right of course, I just see it different. If Jughead had gone off that whole area would have been a crater. Instead the hatch still got built and the EM pocket still existed until the failsafe.

One more point that makes me believe as I do. If jughead blew up in 77 and didnt destroy the EM pocket and in fact the EM was still strong enough to require the button, then why did it all of sudden work when Des blew it up with the failsafe. I would assume that if Jughead did blow up in 77 that they didnt find another nuke to use. If a nuke wasn't strong enough to blow it up in the past, what kind of explosive would be?

There's no YOU!;)

also that aged white shoe. it was there from the beginning - there in the end...only aged and dirty. the island was in fact real. real enough that they needed to create a life after death where they can reconnect with these people they lived on the island with.

Uhm, characters lie, obscure the truth and hold back information, almost every character did that throughout the course of Lost so there's no real reason to believe that Christian was being honest.

This was the endgame. Christian was flawed but he did love his son and what would he stand to gain by lying right there? Count me in the camp that believes that the island and the survivors were real and that all the events really happened. In true reality they would most likely not have survived the crash but we are talking about the ISLAND here. This is a place where black smoke has sentience, where paralyzed men get up and walk (right after a plane crash at that), and where terminal cancer disappears. In the words of John Locke, "A place where miracles happen" :biggrin:

People where holding there ears right before Desmond turned the key also and I beleive that was a minor event compared to the "incident".

You could be right of course, I just see it different. If Jughead had gone off that whole area would have been a crater. Instead the hatch still got built and the EM pocket still existed until the failsafe.

One more point that makes me believe as I do. If jughead blew up in 77 and didnt destroy the EM pocket and in fact the EM was still strong enough to require the button, then why did it all of sudden work when Des blew it up with the failsafe. I would assume that if Jughead did blow up in 77 that they didnt find another nuke to use. If a nuke wasn't strong enough to blow it up in the past, what kind of explosive would be?


They were holding their ears because that weird building sound was loud, but once the drilling stopped, the sound stopped. After the the drilling stopped, we see everyone stop holding their ears and Juliet falling down the well. Also, again, we see Kate up in a tree (LOLOLOL). After the failsafe, we see the immediate effects, and no one has any hearing impairment.

They were holding their ears because that weird building sound was loud, but once the drilling stopped, the sound stopped. After the the drilling stopped, we see everyone stop holding their ears and Juliet falling down the well. Also, again, we see Kate up in a tree (LOLOLOL). After the failsafe, we see the immediate effects, and no one has any hearing impairment.

If they could hear the blast, then they would be dead. The sound would come after the explosion, If they flashed out nano seconds before the blast then they wouldnt have heard it. IMO. We will just have to agree to disagree. i cant explain the Kate in the tree, I guess I just explain it away by thinking she flashed to the location of the tree. If she actually felt enough of the blast to be thrown in a tree, then she would be disintegrated by the heat.

Kate was in a tree because 30 years passed under her. The tree was a sapling in 1977....a full-grown tree by 2007

If they could hear the blast, then they would be dead. The sound would come after the explosion, If they flashed out nano seconds before the blast then they wouldnt have heard it. IMO. We will just have to agree to disagree. i cant explain the Kate in the tree, I guess I just explain it away by thinking she flashed to the location of the tree. If she actually felt enough of the blast to be thrown in a tree, then she would be disintegrated by the heat.

Juliet, yes. The rest of them, not necessarily. The bomb was pretty far underground and the well was a pretty narrow outlet. And they did get around that since we didn't see Juliet until quite a bit later. But let's do this the other way. Forget my argument completely.

Explain the ear ringing in your way. Like I said in the case of the failsafe, we've already seen the direct aftermath and no one had any hearing problems. So where do you think it came from?
100%
Kate was in a tree because 30 years passed under her. The tree was a sapling in 1977....a full-grown tree by 2007

This makes me smile.

Christian was telling the truth. What we are all going to have to remember is what he said..."let go."

They were holding their ears because that weird building sound was loud, but once the drilling stopped, the sound stopped. After the the drilling stopped, we see everyone stop holding their ears and Juliet falling down the well. Also, again, we see Kate up in a tree (LOLOLOL). After the failsafe, we see the immediate effects, and no one has any hearing impairment.

Considering the number of continuity errors we have seen over the years, I think it is difficult to conclusively say that the bomb went off because of people's ears ringing, when they previously didn't during an EM event.

Locke couldn't talk after the hatch failsafe was used. Never saw that reaction happen again.

I am of the opinion that the bomb did NOT go off or else there would be a crater in the ground and not the Swan station. But we will never really know for sure.

Considering the number of continuity errors we have seen over the years, I think it is difficult to conclusively say that the bomb went off because of people's ears ringing, when they previously didn't during an EM event.

Locke couldn't talk after the hatch failsafe was used. Never saw that reaction happen again.

I am of the opinion that the bomb did NOT go off or else there would be a crater in the ground and not the Swan station. But we will never really know for sure.

Even though we have a precedent when Echo tried to blow open the blast door? That's the only other time we've seen ear ringing in the show, and it was exactly the same effect. It's a shame it's always so easy to just say continuity error to support a case.

Even though we have a precedent when Echo tried to blow open the blast door? That's the only other time we've seen ear ringing in the show, and it was exactly the same effect. It's a shame it's always so easy to just say continuity error to support a case.

I just dont see that one bit of info as proof that a nuke went off. Light travels faster than sound, hence if she was around long enough for the blast to damage her ear drum she would have had to have been around long enough for the blast to hit her and that would have been it for all of them.

As to the ringing, I will guess but much like the actual answer to our question we will never really know.

I'm guessing that the incident was probably the biggest EM event that happened and that very well could have had her ears ringing. As pointed out earlier, it caused Locke to loose his voice and that EM event was interrupted by the failsafe.

I think there are many things left up to interpretation (more than there should have been), but this isn't one of them. Christian explained it fairly clearly.
Oh good lord. Watch the scene again. He specifically tells him what the sideways is, and specifically tells him that everything including the on-island events happened.
The series is pretty explicit in all of that. Watch it again.

But the island happened, but everyone meet up again in the afterlife. Eventually Kate, Claire etc. off-island lived a long life and joined the rest, same with the survivors on the island ben, hurley, rose etc.
There's no YOU!;)
Christian was telling the truth. What we are all going to have to remember is what he said..."let go."

:thumbup:
What they said.

Sure Christian could have been lying.. But this wasn't Season 3 finale, this was the SERIES finale. Things had to be tied up. I, too, am of the belief that the bomb went off and sent them back to 2007. I had initially thought it also caused the alt timeline, clearly I was mistaken. I also believe that what they did was cause the events that lead to their crash, which was later referred to as "the incident".

While I was watching The End and thought to myself that this Limbo story couldn't be happening, every question Jack was asking Christian popped into my head almost at the same moment he asked them. It was pretty clear to me.

Why are people saying that the Swan wouldn't be built if the bomb had gone off? Craters can be filled, people. Hell, if anything, it made building the Swan easier.

Man, that was Christian's real ghost, not the smokie lying version!
Misleading us would sent him to hell!
:angel:

Why are people saying that the Swan wouldn't be built if the bomb had gone off? Craters can be filled, people. Hell, if anything, it made building the Swan easier.

Its more a question of why would the swan be built? It was built to release the EM energy at a safe rate every 108 minutes. The EM pocket was still there after the 77 incident, so they built the Swan. If a nuke was set off next to the EM there would be NO pocket of energy and thus no need for the Swan.

I don't think Christan cleared up that much actually, in part because he said "Everything that ever happened to you was real." But clearly either he was lying, because the sideways world wasn't real, or had a different interpretation of what "Real" was.

Also, there is no way that many people could survive a plane breaking up in flight like that, no possible way. Look at the Afriqiyah Airways crash earlier this month, but all accounts it was far more gentle crash than what happened to the Losties and only one person survived that, and everyone is calling that miracle. No way do 48 people survive a mid-air breakup, including several who were just deposited on the beach or in a bamboo field with a few minor injuries. No way.

Everything that ever happened, past tense. Christian confirmed that the stuff which happened on island was real. So did Jack, when Desmond said it didn't matter and Jack yelled at him that it did, because it was real.

The feasability of the characters surviving the crash has been discussed ad infinitum. Suspension of disbelief is required, just like with the smoke monster etc. It's not the least likley thing in the show by a mile.

In order to believe that everything was "Real" you need to accept that Jacob had enough precognitive ability to see exactly when Desmond and Kelvin would fight, could manipulate events to get all of the candidates on the plane, cause the plane to have a mechanical failure and change course so it flew directly over the island, somehow pull off the miraculous safe landing of 48 people but didn't have the power to know which one of them would replace him... sure, yeah, that's entirely possible for God.

Or that his powers are to manipulate fate through butterfly effect style manipulations. He saw Jack and gave him the bar which in some respect changed Jacks entire life. Similarly, Desmond had free will and could have chosen not to follow Kelvin, but something else would have happened to stop him pressing the button and make the plane crash.

One more point that makes me believe as I do. If jughead blew up in 77 and didnt destroy the EM pocket and in fact the EM was still strong enough to require the button, then why did it all of sudden work when Des blew it up with the failsafe. I would assume that if Jughead did blow up in 77 that they didnt find another nuke to use. If a nuke wasn't strong enough to blow it up in the past, what kind of explosive would be?

There wasn't an explosion when Desmond turned the key, certainly not a nuclear one. There was an implosion, which could easily be explained by the electromagnetism and wouldn't need a bomb of any kind.

I am of the opinion that the bomb did NOT go off or else there would be a crater in the ground and not the Swan station. But we will never really know for sure.

A bomb going off deep inside a thin shaft of rock wouldn't create a crater.

Its more a question of why would the swan be built? It was built to release the EM energy at a safe rate every 108 minutes. The EM pocket was still there after the 77 incident, so they built the Swan. If a nuke was set off next to the EM there would be NO pocket of energy and thus no need for the Swan.

It depends how the canon works, because they've confirmed the incident room as being canon, but I don't really get where that would fit either?

Its more a question of why would the swan be built? It was built to release the EM energy at a safe rate every 108 minutes. The EM pocket was still there after the 77 incident, so they built the Swan. If a nuke was set off next to the EM there would be NO pocket of energy and thus no need for the Swan.

Unless the bomb caused the incident.

There wasn't an explosion when Desmond turned the key, certainly not a nuclear one. There was an implosion, which could easily be explained by the electromagnetism and wouldn't need a bomb of any kind.

There wasnt an explosion because the bomb and EM energy cancelled each other out causing the EM pocket and the hatch to be destroyed by implosion. This is what Daniel was expecting to happen when he set his plan into action. However, WHH'd so the bomb didnt go off, the EM event happened as it always had. The swan was built and was used to handle the EM energy up until Locke broke the computer. At that point Des turned the key which set off Jughead. IMO


It depends how the canon works, because they've confirmed the incident room as being canon, but I don't really get where that would fit either?

What is the incident room? I'm not following you.

Unless the bomb caused the incident.

Of course you all could be right but it doesnt work out for me. If the bomb causes the incident wouldnt it have destroyed the EM pocket? And if the nuke wasnt enough to actually destroy the pocket, what type of explosive would the DI be able to get ahold of that was actually powerful enough to destroy it?

If the bomb causes the incident wouldnt it have destroyed the EM pocket?

Not necessarily,if the source of the EM was deeper - kind of like a volcano. A volcano erupts, eventually dies down, then the pressure begins building again from deep within the earth.

What is the incident room? I'm not following you

The incident room was a location in Lost: Via Domus (the rubbish PS3 game). The character you play as managed to get past the concrete in the swan and behind it there was an "incident room" which comprised a large, lopsided piece of machinery which looked like it had been partially destroyed and a lot of water leaking all over the place.

Whilst most of the game was dismissed as non-canon by the producers of the show, they confirmed that this room was based on production sketches from the show depicting what was going to be behind the wall in the show.

What will never be clear, unless the make a thorough explanation of it somewhere else, is how far the research on the EM pocket under the swan had got at the time of "the incident". Theoretically, in the original timeline at some point the DI had dug down, created a laboratory which was studying the EM phenomena, then the incident happened. The incident room was sealed off and the hatch was built to manage the discharge of energy every 108 minutes.

We have no way to know what stage of the research the DI were at when the incident with jughead took place. Also, why was Radzinski designing the dome where the button was if the incident hadn't happened yet?

The incident room was a location in Lost: Via Domus (the rubbish PS3 game). The character you play as managed to get past the concrete in the swan and behind it there was an "incident room" which comprised a large, lopsided piece of machinery which looked like it had been partially destroyed and a lot of water leaking all over the place.

Whilst most of the game was dismissed as non-canon by the producers of the show, they confirmed that this room was based on production sketches from the show depicting what was going to be behind the wall in the show.

What will never be clear, unless the make a thorough explanation of it somewhere else, is how far the research on the EM pocket under the swan had got at the time of "the incident". Theoretically, in the original timeline at some point the DI had dug down, created a laboratory which was studying the EM phenomena, then the incident happened. The incident room was sealed off and the hatch was built to manage the discharge of energy every 108 minutes.

We have no way to know what stage of the research the DI were at when the incident with jughead took place. Also, why was Radzinski designing the dome where the button was if the incident hadn't happened yet?


Oh yeah I forgot about that. I'm only going with what I saw in the show. Radzinski was building the swan to study the energy, the button was put in after they drilled into the pocket, which was the incident (IMO).

http://g4tv.com/videos/46136/Michael-Emerson-on-Lost-Finale--Hurley-Epilogue/

"a real plane, crashed on a real island, and real survivors lived there for a period of time, and had adventures. and then they passed over..."

the sideways world is open for interpretation

all in all It's really believe what you want...but I am satisfied with this and the ending! the clues are in the show and Christian summed it up IMO ofcourse

Not necessarily,if the source of the EM was deeper - kind of like a volcano. A volcano erupts, eventually dies down, then the pressure begins building again from deep within the earth.

Maybe but didnt we see Jack and Sayid crawl down the pocket, which was covered in concrete and located right next to the fail safe switch?

Everyone's forgetting (or weren't aware of) the most critical piece of information: the cause of infertility.

Damon and Carlton have said that the explanation for the infertility and death was the lingering radiation from the bomb going off.

What more do you need?

What more do you need?

Some logic, perhaps? ;)

But then when Juliet hit the bomb, nothing happened I guess.

Something happened...the candidates were transported back to the future. ;)

Yes, the radiation answer doesn't make actual sense, but it's the answer from the source, and it can only apply if the bomb went off. Therefore, it went off.

Everyone's forgetting (or weren't aware of) the most critical piece of information: the cause of infertility.
Damon and Carlton have said that the explanation for the infertility and death was the lingering radiation from the bomb going off.

Just curious when did they say this? Do you have the source in which they said this?

I'd like to point out that everyone who came to the island was there because Jacob brought them there. Oceanic Flight 815 would have crashed on the island regardless of whether or not Desmond forgot to push the button - The same way the Ajira flight arrived on the island without someone pressing a button.
100%
When you go back you clearly see that the plane was on it's way to the island. Desmond was only responsible for the plane "breaking up" in mid-air.

I don't think Christan cleared up that much actually, in part because he said "Everything that ever happened to you was real." But clearly either he was lying, because the sideways world wasn't real, or had a different interpretation of what "Real" was.

I think the key point you're missing here is, Christian says this after Jack "awakens" to the fact he's dead. He's confused about what is going on while they are talking and Christian is reassuring him that everything that happened to him up to the point of his island death was real. He's helping him to understand the difference between his life and the "transition" that they are speaking in.
100%
real enough that they needed to create a life after death where they can reconnect with these people they lived on the island with.

This post isn't directed at you Bailey. More to several instances where i've read about what others are saying about when CS says, "This is a place that you all made together so you could find one another".

My take is that it's not to be taken literally. As if Hurley made a rule that they would be reunited after death, or that somehow, someone created this place. It's more of a metaphor.

I think what he means is that it was created because of the time they spent together on the island. The impact that they had on each others lives caused them to be reunited in that time. Just my take, but i wanted to throw it out there and see if anyone saw it this way.

Maybe but didnt we see Jack and Sayid crawl down the pocket, which was covered in concrete and located right next to the fail safe switch?

I'm sorry...doesn't that prove it? Pressing the button probably released the energy a little at a time - just enough to keep the pressure from "erupting" (for 108 minutes). The concrete was probably encasing the nuclear bomb (if it didn't explode).
100%
Yes, the radiation answer doesn't make actual sense, but it's the answer from the source, and it can only apply if the bomb went off. Therefore, it went off.

Or if the radiation was leaking -due to Juliet creating a small hole.


I know this goes against what I said in the previous post - but I'm just exploring possibilities.

Its more a question of why would the swan be built? It was built to release the EM energy at a safe rate every 108 minutes. The EM pocket was still there after the 77 incident, so they built the Swan. If a nuke was set off next to the EM there would be NO pocket of energy and thus no need for the Swan.

Where exactly is it declared that an atomic bomb can destroy a pocket of electromagnetic energy? Why would there be no pocket?
.
The bomb did go off, but the characters weren't killed because they were sent back to 2007 rather than '77. In 1977 island-time, the Incident (the detonation of the jughead) was what made the hatch necessary. If anything the bomb OPENED the pocket further, it didn't destroy it.

And keep in mind, there were other pockets on the island (like where Ben turned the wheel). These pockets are all wormholes, which is why the characters were sent back and forth through time. The first of the jumps through time occurred when Ben interacted with one pocket by turning the wheel, and then he himself went through the wormhole and ended up in Tunisia (in a different year), and then when Locke turned the wheel the jumping around stopped, but our characters were then stuck in '77. It was only the final interaction with a pocket (the bomb being detonated) that sent them back to the correct time, and I'd imagine that in '77, that area of the island was destroyed and then 'converted' from crater of bomb into the Swan hatch.

To me all of this is pretty clear-cut.

But if radiation supposedly caused the infertility why did Juliet have the line about a 30-year-old woman with the womb of a 80-year-old? If there were enough radiation from the bomb explosion than infertility would be the least of their problems.

Let's break this down.

Juliet is smacking at the bomb with a rock.

It just so happens that while she's doing that, SOMETHING happens significant enough to trigger another time warp.

If it wasn't the bomb, WHAT WAS IT?

And while we're at it, what was with Juliet and Desmond later saying that "it worked", directly implying that the alt-timeline was IN FACT an alternate reality?

Contradictions smell stinky. They kinda smell like ... onoins.

And while we're at it, what was with Juliet and Desmond later saying that "it worked", directly implying that the alt-timeline was IN FACT an alternate reality?

.

Juliet saying "it worked" was actually her at the candy machine with James.

We were all expecting Juliet's word's to have a meaning in a different context. It got said, just not the way we thought it would, or have a totally different meaning then I, at least, was expecting. I liked the way they did it better than I had imagined.

Scribe,
I think where you are off is where you say things like "No plane could crash like that and have people survive" etc. You are using LOGIC. This show turned out to be based on stupidity and horrific story telling. The plane crash, how did they survive? Doesn't matter according to them. Virtually EVERYTHING we watched really didn't matter very much. But to suck us all in. So stop wasting your time.
Jack is dead. Show was ALL about Jacko, nothing else ever mattered.
If anyone thinks this is harsh, TPTB left themselves open to this by how the ended their show. The rendered everything else pointless.

There are a couple of points about the Incident of which I'd like to see confirmation.

Wasn't there a reference by Faraday (or in his journal) about a cancellation of energies when the bomb went off? I took this to mean that the bomb would cancel out the electromagnetic energy at the Swan station, and vice versa. There would therefore be no future situation where Flight 815 would crash because of a failure to contain the energy, because that energy wouldn't exist in 2004.

The 1977 people at the Swan station might still die, but since the future event wouldn't happen, then that wouldn't matter. Also, this was the triggering atomic bomb for the main hydrogen bomb. What happens when a small atomic bomb goes off in a powerful electromagnetic field? There are a lot of possibilities to consider.

But all of that may miss the larger picture of what's happening. I think when Jack dropped the bomb it didn't go off BECAUSE he was a candidate and candidates can't kill themselves. Remember when Faraday said that PEOPLE are the variables? Perhaps he hadn't accounted for the fact that the people he was considering had abilities that would circumvent the effects of the bomb. Perhaps there were forces at play that were bigger than he had anticipated. The island itself may enforce the rule of "what happened, happened."

And while we're at it, what was with Juliet and Desmond later saying that "it worked", directly implying that the alt-timeline was IN FACT an alternate reality?


Thanks Aeon, glad I'm not the only one who thinks the FS was not purgatory. I also believe it was an alternate reality / timeline. Desmond would not have been able to travel there and then procede to tell Jack about it before they went down the light cave.

Maybe but didnt we see Jack and Sayid crawl down the pocket, which was covered in concrete and located right next to the fail safe switch?

Nope, we saw Jack and Saiyed crawl into the passage which used to lead to the incident site but they were unable to pass because of the concrete. The only people we've ever seen in the failsafe crawlspace (which is presumably behind the concrete) are Desmond and Inman.

Thanks Aeon, glad I'm not the only one who thinks the FS was not purgatory. I also believe it was an alternate reality / timeline. Desmond would not have been able to travel there and then procede to tell Jack about it before they went down the light cave.

They said it was purgatory.

I don't know how anyone can say it wasn't an afterlife.. I mean it was perfectly laid out by Christian. As for not treating all faiths as equal, I thought the stained glass window was pretty good indicator that all faiths (at least the major ones) were recognized.

I think also the simple fact that Miles said in the Incident, "Has anyone considered that what your friend is doing will actually cause the incident? I'm glad this plan was well thought out."

They said it was purgatory.

Source?

Source?

Christian Shephard.

Christian Shephard.

Really, pretty sure I watched the final episode and Christian never said the word purgatory.

He said it was a place they were waiting after they died, that's what purgatory is.

He said it was a place they were waiting after they died, that's what purgatory is.


Only if you are Catholic -and you are given punishment there. Since the "church" showed many different religions and our Losties weren't punished, then I'd say it wasn't purgatory, even in the Roman Catholic sense. Also, Christian said that they had collectively created it.

:facepalm:

I'm using the word purgatory because it's accepted colloquial shorthand for "a place where people go after they die to wait for something", rather than in a literal catholic sense.

What Christian described was something very much different to any accepted notion of 'purgatory'.


[Christian approaches Jack and they hug each other.]
JACK: I love you, dad.
CHRISTIAN: I love you too, son.
JACK: You...are you real?
CHRISTIAN: I should hope so. Yeah, I'm real. You're real, everything that's ever happened to you is real. All those people in the church...they're real too.
JACK: They're all...they're all dead?
CHRISTIAN: Everyone dies sometime, kiddo. Some of them before you, some...long after you.
JACK: But why are they all here now?
CHRISTIAN: Well there is no "now" here.
JACK: Where are we, dad?
CHRISTIAN: This is the place that you...that you all made together, so that you could find one another. The most...important part of your life, was the time that you spent with these people. That's why all of you are here. Nobody does it alone Jack. You needed all of them, and they needed you.
JACK: For what?
CHRISTIAN: To remember...and to...let go.
JACK: Kate...she said we were leaving.
CHRISTIAN: Not leaving, no. Moving on.
JACK: Where we going?
CHRISTIAN [smiling]: Let's go find out.

The term 'purgatory' has been flung around quite a bit, both here and elsewhere, since the finale, but what Christian described is nothing of the sort. Purgatory isn't a 'waiting room', and nor is what Christian discussed with Jack.

:facepalm:

I'm using the word purgatory because it's accepted colloquial shorthand for "a place where people go after they die to wait for something", rather than in a literal catholic sense.


Really? I've only every heard Catholics use it, because they are the only people I know who have that as part of their faith.

"Suddenly there was no trail. There was no giant, no monster, no thing called Douglas to be followed. There was nothing in the tunnel but the puzzled men of courage who suddenly found themselves alone with shadows and darkness. With the telegram, one cloud lifts, and another descends. Astronaut Frank Douglas, rescued, alive, well, and of normal size some 8000 miles away in a lifeboat."

-- Narrator, "Monster A-Go-Go", 1965 movie riffed by the fellas and ladies of Mystery Science Theater 3000 (Season 4, Episode 21 of the Comedy Channel/Comedy Central run)

Really? I've only every heard Catholics use it, because they are the only people I know who have that as part of their faith.

:rolleyes:

Yes, because the only people who use the word "karma" are Hindus, Buddhists, Jainists, and Sikhs.

"Purgatory" is the easiest thing to call it. They're not technically "Flash Sideways," now that we know what they are. What would you have us say? TPWPGATDBDKTDAAWTATD (The Place Where People Go After They Die But Don't Know They're Dead And Are Waiting To Accept Their Deaths)?

:rolleyes:

Yes, because the only people who use the word "karma" are Hindus, Buddhists, Jainists, and Sikhs.

"Purgatory" is the easiest thing to call it. They're not technically "Flash Sideways," now that we know what they are. What would you have us say? TPWPGATDBDKTDAAWTATD (The Place Where People Go After They Die But Don't Know They're Dead And Are Waiting To Accept Their Deaths)?

You can call it whatever you want, but that doesn't make it so. I can call a dog a cat, and its never going to be a cat.

You can call it whatever you want, but that doesn't make it so. I can call a dog a cat, and its never going to be a cat.

Someone's missing the point entirely.

We're NOT saying that it's the literal Purgatory from Catholic dogma! We ARE saying that it's a literal afterlife scenario that was being displayed, and we're calling it Purgatory as a placeholder name! How is this so hard?

What Christian described was something very much different to any accepted notion of 'purgatory'.

The term 'purgatory' has been flung around quite a bit, both here and elsewhere, since the finale, but what Christian described is nothing of the sort. Purgatory isn't a 'waiting room', and nor is what Christian discussed with Jack.

pur·ga·to·ry

[pur-guh-tawr-ee, -tohr-ee] noun, plural -ries, adjective
–noun

1.(in the belief of Roman Catholics and others) a condition or place in which the souls of those dying penitent are purified from venial sins, or undergo the temporal punishment that, after the guilt of mortal sin has been remitted, still remains to be endured by the sinner.

2. ( initial capital letter, italics Italian, Pur·ga·to·rio /ˌpurgɑˈtɔryɔ/ [poor-gah-taw-ryaw] the second part of Dante's Divine Comedy, in which the repentant sinners are depicted. Compare inferno (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inferno) ( def. 3 ) , paradise (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paradise) ( def. 7 ) .

3. any condition or place of temporary punishment, suffering, expiation, or the like.

Really? I've only every heard Catholics use it, because they are the only people I know who have that as part of their faith.

Really? Because I've heard about 500 people use it on here, and I'd bet cash that not every one of them is Catholic.

:rolleyes:

Yes, because the only people who use the word "karma" are Hindus, Buddhists, Jainists, and Sikhs.

"Purgatory" is the easiest thing to call it. They're not technically "Flash Sideways," now that we know what they are. What would you have us say? TPWPGATDBDKTDAAWTATD (The Place Where People Go After They Die But Don't Know They're Dead And Are Waiting To Accept Their Deaths)?

I call it a staging area - but that is just me. My point is that if this is a non-denominational group concocted "place", then it isn't purgatory because it isn't Catholic.
100%
pur·ga·to·ry

[pur-guh-tawr-ee, -tohr-ee] noun, plural -ries, adjective
–noun

1.(in the belief of Roman Catholics and others) a condition or place in which the souls of those dying penitent are purified from venial sins, or undergo the temporal punishment that, after the guilt of mortal sin has been remitted, still remains to be endured by the sinner.

2. ( initial capital letter, italics Italian, Pur·ga·to·rio /ˌpurgɑˈtɔryɔ/ [poor-gah-taw-ryaw] the second part of Dante's Divine Comedy, in which the repentant sinners are depicted. Compare inferno (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inferno) ( def. 3 ) , paradise (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paradise) ( def. 7 ) .

3. any condition or place of temporary punishment, suffering, expiation, or the like.



Really? Because I've heard about 500 people use it on here, and I'd bet cash that not every one of them is Catholic.

I'm not sure why you bolded #3. (but I'm really impressed that you can copy/paste). It certainly didn't look like punishment or suffering to me. And perhaps the approx. 500 people (did you count them?) are using the incorrect term. I don't know if they are Catholic or not - but in my real life, I have only ever heard Catholics use that term.
100%
Someone's missing the point entirely.

We're NOT saying that it's the literal Purgatory from Catholic dogma! We ARE saying that it's a literal afterlife scenario that was being displayed, and we're calling it Purgatory as a placeholder name! How is this so hard?

Because it is an incorrect usage of the term.

I call it a staging area - but that is just me. My point is that if this is a non-denominational group concocted "place", then it isn't purgatory because it isn't Catholic.

You do realize you're just repeating me, right?

We're not calling it the literal Catholic Purgatory. We're using it as a placeholder, like people have been using "Flocke," "Fenry," "Smokey," etc. . .we're using a term to describe something that has not been named. No, it's NOT the Catholic Purgatory! We're NOT saying that it is! There is no reason to be arguing this nonsense! It's not even a point relevant to the discussion!

You: It's not the literal Catholic Purgatory!
Us: Duh. We know that. Placeholder name for convenience.
You: I refuse! Lalala!

You do realize you're just repeating me, right?

We're not calling it the literal Catholic Purgatory. We're using it as a placeholder, like people have been using "Flocke," "Fenry," "Smokey," etc. . .we're using a term to describe something that has not been named. No, it's NOT the Catholic Purgatory! We're NOT saying that it is! There is no reason to be arguing this nonsense! It's not even a point relevant to the discussion!

You: It's not the literal Catholic Purgatory!
Us: Duh. We know that. Placeholder name for convenience.
You: I refuse! Lalala!

You're arguing a straw man. The argument wasn't that the "flashsideways" can't be called "purgatory" because it's not like the literal Catholic Purgatory. The argument is that the word "purgatory" has a connotation or denotation that is fundamentally different from what the "flashsideways" was.

I can see the point of both sides of the argument. On one hand, purgatory has always had a negative connotation to me, meaning the dead that arrive there performed some unresolved misdeed (I have no religious background, if this helps understand where I am coming from). This is referenced in every definition of purgatory I can find, and is clearly not the case for some of our Losties, which is why I would call "purgatory" a misnomer. On the other hand, there really isn't a good word for it (that I've seen it called at least), and "purgatory" is pretty close. So I'm fine with Purgatory.

Purgatory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory)

In 1999 Pope John Paul II declared that the term Purgatory does not indicate a place, but "a condition of existence".

Catholic statements

210. What is purgatory?
Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.
211. How can we help the souls being purified in purgatory?
Because of the communion of saints, the faithful who are still pilgrims on earth are able to help the souls in purgatory by offering prayers in suffrage for them, especially the Eucharistic sacrifice. They also help them by almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance.

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