PILOT EPISODE II

[INT. OCEANIC (FLIGHT) - DAY - FLASHBACK]

(Kate turns to look at the Flight Attendant.)

KATE: No, I'm fine with this. Thank you.

FLIGHT ATTENDANT: You, sir, can I get you anything? Cocktail? Soda?

(Camera moves over to the man in the seat next to Kate and we see that it's
Marshal. The U.S. Marshal.)

U.S. MARSHAL: Just coffee, Sweetheart. Black.

FLIGHT ATTENDANT: (flatly) Coffee, sure.

(The Flight Attendant steps away.)

U.S. MARSHAL: (to Kate) You look worried. I'd be worried, too, if I was you.
But you've gotta stay positive, kiddo. You know that there's always that off
chance that they'll believe your story. I know I sure do.

KATE: I don't care what you believe.

U.S. MARSHAL: Oh, I know that's true. That has always been true. You sure you
don't want some more juice?
(He turns to look at Kate.)

KATE: Yeah, I'm sure.

(Kate reaches down to pick up her plastic cup. Her wrists are handcuffed
together.)

I ask you yo go back and watch this part of the pilot again. Doesn't that seem a strange place to put that statement? I felt there was a spin on those words and started thinking about this. Here is the theory.

1. Kate was involved in a mercy killing. Whatever was given was administered in juice. (Now I think she knocked out the Marshal and got away one time.)

Why do I think that.

2. Kate has knocked out Jack by putting sleeping pills in something he drank. (fact)

3. Kate suggested putting something in the water to Sun, hoping that it would make Jin sick. Unfortunately Michael drank it. (fact)

Tabula Rasa

MARSHAL: Well?

KATE: I wanted you to make sure that Ray Mullen got his twenty-three grand.

(The Marshal starts chuckling and then coughs. Kate kneels down beside him.)

MARSHAL: What, the guy who ratted you out?

KATE: He had a hell of a mortgage.

MARSHAL: Kate. You really are one of a kind. You know, you would have got
away if you hadn't saved him.

KATE: In case you hadn't noticed, I did get away.

MARSHAL: You don't look free to me. (She doesn't look at him.) Kate, I'm
gonna die, right?

(She stares at him, then nods.)

KATE: Yeah.

MARSHAL: So ... are you gonna do it, or what?

Back to 1. The Marshal asks Kate to kill him because he knows she was able to do it once before.

I believe this is another case of "What goes around comes around." We will be seening examples of this over an over again.

We haven't figured out the Juice line with Kate but we did examine a bunch of stuff about Kate. I think Kate managed to knock out the Marshal one time, by putting something in his juice, and getting away. We shall see

I think you are right about the mercy killing and the marshal expecting her to kill him as well.

Love it!!!

She used orange juice for the mercy killing. That's why Lockes orange smile didn't go over too well. Well that and the fact she was pilfering hiking boots from a dead body. Still.....

O my Sawyer! The orange smile means something totally different now.

Love it!!!

She used orange juice for the mercy killing. That's why Lockes orange smile didn't go over too well. Well that and the fact she was pilfering hiking boots from a dead body. Still.....

Perfect. I was going to say there should be one more piece. I'm thinking that there should be 4 points to bring us to a conclusion. Kate may have also, knocked out the Marshal once by spiking his orange juice and managed to get away. The orange smile fits better.

Doh!!!! Here's the wrapper. It was part of the theory and I got so excited I completely forgot it.

4. So when Kate goes to visit Diane, who is dying, that is why she responds to Kate that way, because she is afraid Kate is there to kill her, because Kate did it before. (Out of Love, out of Mercy, Diane's not ready to go yet.)

KATE: Hi, Mom. Can you hear me? Mom?

(Diane's eyes open.)

DIANE JANSEN: uhmm.

KATE: Mom?

(Diane looks around, then sees Kate. Kate starts to cry.)

KATE: It's me -- Katie.

(Kate holds Diane's hand. Diane looks at Kate. Kate smiles at her.)

DIANE JANSEN: Katherine?

KATE: It's me. Katherine. (Kate starts to cry.) I'm so sorry for everything
that I have put you through.

(Kate cries.)

(Tears run down Diane's eyes.)

DIANE JANSEN: Help.

KATE: It's okay, Mom. It's just me.

DIANE JANSEN: (high pitched) Help ... (louder) help!

KATE: Shh, shh, shh, shh. It's okay.

DIANE JANSEN: (louder) Help!

KATE: Mom.

DIANE JANSEN: (louder still) Help! Help me!

(Diane pulls her hand out of Kate's.)

DIANE JANSEN: (loud) Help me! Someone help me!

(Kate backs away.)

LATER

(Kate looks at the State Trooper, then at Tom.)

KATE: Get out.

TOM: I am not letting you do this. Katie, if you cooperate, they go easy --

KATE: He's calling for backup. I've got to go. Get out.

TOM: You'll have a real life.

KATE: Tom, come on. Please.

TOM: No.

KATE: Now. Get out.

TOM: No!

maybe she assisted in killing her father?

I missed this part. What did Tom mean when he said: Katie, if you cooperate, they go easy --

Wow, impressed!

The fact that the Marshal would ask her if she was sure she didn't want some more juice on the plane. After seeing how he taunted her in the pre-boarding flashback in Exodus I thought he was just taunting her about the fact that her hands were bound. Now perhaps it has a double meaning. (They repeated that specific scene in Lost:The Journey although I think the network put that together and probably chose it because it is immediately followed by Kate's rememberance of the turbulence then the tail being dislodged.)

Totally explains her weirded out reaction to Locke's orange smile, other than it is inappropriately light hearted considering they are standing amongst the plane wreckage. And her drugging Jack and helping Sun taint the water.

The idea of Kate's original crime being an assisted suicide/mercy killing would totally fit IMO. Hence her "mitigating circumstances".

So, does Hurley and his investment in Florida oranges somehow link up with this? That is the only other random juice related mention I could think of.

Hurley's oranges have to fit in . It was probably a Hurley orange in Locke's mouth

from Numbers

I would think you'd be happy. Every one of your stocks is up. Your interest in orange futures skyrocketed after those tropical storms hit Florida.

Then there's also the subtle, almost constant reminder that Kate wears orange, she is wearing it in the scene we cut back to and she wears orange frequently. Were they giving us a hint? I think so.

Sam Grant, you are BRILLIANT!!!!

I always thought her wearing orange had some kind of meaning. Now it makes sense.

And the orange smile thing....man, brilliant i say!!

April

bump 8)

Sam, By golly, I think you've done it. It completely fits the subtle clues we've been given.

Just for reference, Hurley had stock in orange futures, which is just an interest in where the price will go in the future. It wasn't like a company that produced oranges of juices.

Sam Grant I think this is so spot on, it should be in spoiler font! Great theory, I can't wait to see it proven!

Cool theory, Sam Grant! *And very original!

I always thought the orange smile was a tie-in with Hurley's futures, but it works the other around way too --- Hurley's orange futures tie in with Kate, and so does his sneaker factory and the tennis shoe in the tree ("born to run").

Sam,

Absolutely amazing theory! I have never even thought of looking at it that way. Good work. I will definitely be keeping up with this thread.

post to follow

I think our clues are hidden in plain site. The orange juice line was so simple but it didn't fit the conversation. Watch the very end and the marshal has this great smirk on his face before the plane goes BUMP. As in this case, I'm wondering if hte clues will bring us full circle. "It'll come back around". or if it was just this one.

The next one I found isn't so much a puzzle, as Kate's, but i think it was a clue that hints at things to come.
Hurley and the water finding stick. I'll find the link.

http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=19285.msg395951;topicseen#msg39595 1

The tropical storms hit Florida causing Hurley's orange futures to skyrocket. I thought of another
Florida refrence . Sawyer and Tibbs had a falling out over the Tampa job, that could have
involved scamming someone over an orange grove or could have happened during the tropical
storms.

I know this doesn't seem at first glance to fit here, but I couldn't help wondering if there was something we should take away from it.* It's from DEM, after the transplant.

Locke

* * * * * * But, that doesn't make any. . . why? Did he leave me a message?

Nurse

* * * * * * No, not that I know of. You just relax, Mr. Locke. I'm going to get you some juice.

Perhaps Kate was, or posed as, a nurse?

Could she be an Angel of Death type character? The Angel of Death was a male nurse at a hospital that killed patients -- used a needle, I think.

It would explain a few things. I kind of wondered why Kate would be the character chosen to deliver Claire's baby. It's also interesting that she was awfully opposed to suturing Jack's injury in the pilot initially, yet she was able to joke about his color preference. Perhaps she just didn't want to be associated with medical skills in any way. Maybe Jack was able to tell by his stitches that Kate was not a novice, but respected her privacy. He didn't call on her until it was absolutely necessary.

I love that. Kate faking her skills as a nurse, like she faked not knowing how to use a gun.

I'll have to think about this. Even in private moments, when no one is watching except us, Kate does not like blood. She would have never gotten through nursing school. Making her an Angel of Death moves it from the personal. I don't think Tom would have said (See Above) about turing herself in.


It would explain a few things. I kind of wondered why Kate would be the character chosen to deliver Claire's baby. It's also interesting that she was awfully opposed to suturing Jack's injury in the pilot initially, yet she was able to joke about his color preference. Perhaps she just didn't want to be associated with medical skills in any way. Maybe Jack was able to tell by his stitches that Kate was not a novice, but respected her privacy. He didn't call on her until it was absolutely necessary.

Kate was already there and Jack didn't have much of a choice. I like it connecting to: maybe, Kate already had a baby (the older of Tom's sons.) and ran away leaving it with Tom. It then makes sense when Tom says "It's not fair, you coming here...home." (not direct quote.)
I know this doesn't seem at first glance to fit here, but I couldn't help wondering if there was something we should take away from it. It's from DEM, after the transplant.

Perhaps Kate was, or posed as, a nurse?

I think this is the one that we're supposed to link to Hurley. Hurley, Locke and the Numbers.

Maybe Kate aquired her nursing skills by caring for her sick mother? She may know how to do things because she was forced to learn them, and isn't comfortable around blood still.

The reason I like this scenario is because Kate stitched up Jack. I could never do that, residents have a hard time learning to do this. Could you imagine sticking a needle into someones flesh, digging in and pulling it through (feeling the tension), and then continuing to do that. :sick:

Making her an Angel of Death moves it from the personal.

True, unless it's mistaken identity. *Perhaps she was manipulated by someone, the way she manipulated Sun. *She did it for personal reasons once, but now the authorities believe it's a pattern? *Maybe the hospital thought something like that was going on. *Those kinds of investigations take place very quietly. *Perhaps her becoming a manipulator is kind of like James Ford becoming Sawyer? *

I think this is the one that we're supposed to link to Hurley. Hurley, Locke and the Numbers.

It's probably just a tangent, but I kind of thought the nurse offering Locke juice when he was so upset was so that she could sedate him. *Reminded me of Kate sedating Jack.

She may know how to do things because she was forced to learn them, and isn't comfortable around blood still.

Another possibility is that she used the orange juice to sedate her "victim" prior to shooting them. She does know how to use a gun. The blood would be a difficult memory to shake.

Hmmm...finally a theory I can endorse. I don't do that all that often... ;D

I'm sorry to be silly, on such a great thread, but the last post made me think of Kevorkian, and how he could fit it. *I thought I'd look up the names of the people he assisted in their suicide, and then I thought, What if he's Kates father?

Maybe Kate aquired her nursing skills by caring for her sick mother?* She may know how to do things because she was forced to learn them, and isn't comfortable around blood still.

The reason I like this scenario is because Kate stitched up Jack.* I could never do that, residents have a hard time learning to do this.* Could you imagine sticking a needle into someones flesh, digging in and pulling it through (feeling the tension), and then continuing to do that.* *:sick:


We don't know how long Diane's been sick. Kate crying over the letter looses it's punch if it isn't a shock Diane is dying.

I'm pretty sure I could sew up someone's back. If you have sewed up a turkey at Thanksgiving it's probably similiar.

Another possibility is that she used the orange juice to sedate her "victim" prior to shooting them. She does know how to use a gun. The blood would be a difficult memory to shake.

Why shoot them when you can OD them?

I will think about the scene with Locke and the Juice. It's just not falling into place for me.. I have to see where it falls in the episode and if there are any scenes with Kate before or after.

While searching transcripts today I found this to support the Kate has nursing skills theory.

(Jack stares at the fire. Kate walks up to him and puts a make-shift sling around his neck. He chuckles as she adjusts it.) KATE: (smiles) Made you something.

What kind of poisons would be disguised well by orange juice, I wonder?* Anybody know?*

One thing I think I know about orange juice and drugs, is it reduces the effect of LSD?

The juice of an orange is supposed to help counteract the effects of poison ivy. In fact, orange juice seems to help get rid of certain toxins and poisons. Maybe Kate's plot was foiled because a glass of OJ. :lol2: (just kidding)

I was thinking that that's the angle that might lead to what Kate did and how -- because she'd have to get hold of this lethal whatever-it-was, and then if it was a fast-acting poison that only needed a small dose, there would be some reason for orange juice to be the best delivery method.* And, a reason that her victim wouldn't be suspicious of it.* (I mean, she isn't stopping someone in the street and insisting that they drink a glass of orange juice -- for example.)

So, giving them a glass of orange juice would be an ordinary activity -- not something forced or unnatural; and she'd know them well enough to know that they liked orange juice and would probably drink it.

But if it was fast-acting, and could be traced, she would need to get rid of the glass and substitute an innocent glass of juice, because they'd find the orange juice in an autopsy, and they're probably going to do an autopsy for a sudden death -- unless it was a terminally ill patient who was close to dying anyway in which case... why would they even suspect her, so that's a Catch-22 there really.

If it was slow-acting, like say arsenic, then she'd have to know the victim well enough to be around on a daily basis for months.

I guess what I am finding is the opposite. The orange juice can actually help in certain circumstances prevent certain toxins from having a full effect.* *Grapefruit juice usually has the opposite effect. In fact many drugs should not be taken with grapefruit juice b/c the juice makes a normally helpful drug* -deadly....example Lipitor.

Grapefruit Juice: To Drink, Or Not to Drink, That Is the Question!
In recent news articles, it has been stressed that patients taking the medications listed below should eliminate grapefruit juice from their diets.* Patients have questioned the validity of this claim, and should be educated on whether to avoid grapefruit juice altogether, or to avoid ingestion within hours of the dose.

aslovastatin (Mevacor)

atorvastatin (Lipitor)

simvastatin (Zocor)

cerivistatin (Baycol)*

alprazolam

cisapride

cyclosporine

felodipine

midazolam

nisoldipine

triazolam

saquinavir

Grapefruit juice decreases the metabolism of these drugs.* One glass of grapefruit juice is enough to cause an interaction, and following regular ingestion the effect can last for up to 3 days following the last glass.* Since most patients take medications on a regular basis for diseases, these metabolic alterations could be risky, the safest approach would be to avoid grapefruit juice altogether.* Other alternatives, such as orange juice, may be more appropriate. http://www.asu.edu/health/pharside%2021.htm

Let's throw this line out and see if we catch anything:

Kato, like you said, if it were a terminal case they probably wouldn't do an autopsy. But, what if the person (let's say Kate's Dad) was diagnosed with a terminal disease. Now, said terminal disease doesn't have a cure and the only means of holding it off would consist of years of therapy, possibly chemo, and Daddy would be dependant on others for everything. Kate could realize this and decide she doesn't want her Father to go through that. So, the orange juice comes into play.

Alternatively, Daddy could be going through those medical procedures in order to stave off the disease, Kate could see him and the effects the chemo/whatever is having on him and decide to end it.

Edited to add that the alternate theory would happen mere months into the therapy instead of say a year or more.

Bess, good point about the grapefruit juice -- that would be the better weapon of choice there.*

JohnnyReb, using your scenario where he's diagnosed and terminal but not near death... then she'd need to obtain a poison that was sure to kill him "kindly" (otherwise why bother, so it wouldn't be arsenic or rat poisoning or something like that)... any ideas on what would be tasteless in orange juice and kill fast enough without any painful symptoms?* Would an overdose of tranquilizers work in that situation?

Think I found something!

It's called tartar emetic. I found out about it in an artice about a George Chapman:

George Chapman

George Chapman, aka Severin Antoniovich Klosowski
George Chapman's real name was Severin Antoniovich Klosowski when he was born in Poland in 1865. He was apprenticed to a surgeon and later went on to complete his studies at a hospital in Warsaw. His records show that he was "diligent, of exemplary conduct, and studied with zeal the science of surgery."
For reasons that are not clear, he immigrated to London early in 1887. He took a job working as a hairdresser's assistant for five months and then opened a barbershop of his own at 126 Cable Street, St. George's-in-the-East. He was most likely at this Whitechapel address during the Ripper murders. In 1890, he worked in a barbershop at the corner of Whitechapel High Street and George Yard, very close to where Martha Tabram was murdered in August of 1888.

Klosowski married Lucy Baderski, expecting that the wife he left in Poland wouldn't find out about it. The first wife moved to London for awhile, but appeared to give him up after Baderski bore him a son in 1890. The son died of pneumonia in March of 1891 and the couple moved to Jersey City in New Jersey.

He first showed his violent streak when he attacked his wife. She claimed that he "held her down on the bed, and pressed his face against her mouth to keep her from screaming. At that moment a customer entered the shop immediately in front of the room, and Klosowski got up to attend him. Lucy chanced to see a handle protruding from underneath the pillow. She found to her horror that it was a sharp and formidable knife, which she promptly hid. Later, Klosowski deliberately told her that he meant to have cut her head off, and pointed to a place in the room where he meant to have buried her. She said, "'But the neighbors would have asked where I had gone to."

"Oh," retorted Klosowski calmly. " I should simply have told them that you had gone back to New York."

Lucy went back to London alone and bore him a daughter in May of 1892. In June of that year he returned to London, but his relationship with Lucy did not continue long. In 1893, he moved in with and impregnated Annie Chapman (obviously not the woman who died at the hands of the Ripper in 1888) but the relationship ended in 1894 because of Klosowski's philandering.

He changed his name to George Chapman and soon lived in a common law arrangement with Mary Spink, who turned over to him her inheritance of 500 pounds. They set up a barbershop, which prospered because of their "musical shaves." Mary played the piano while George took care of the barbering.

While they prospered financially, their domestic life was turbulent. George beat his wife frequently. He bought some tartar emetic, a colorless, odorless and nearly tasteless poison containing antimony. In small doses it brings on a gradual painful death. Interestingly enough, the drug has the effect of preserving its victim's body for years after death.

When the musical barbershop's novelty wore off, it went out of business and George ended up working as manager in a pub. About the same time, Mary Spink began to suffer from severe stomach problems, which caused her death in 1897. Tuberculosis was the cause of death listed.



George Chapman with Bessie Taylor


Soon he had a live-in arrangement with Bessie Taylor, but treated her with the same abuse as his former women, once threatening her with a gun. Bessie experienced the same stomach problems as her predecessor and died in 1901 from "exhaustion from vomiting and diarrhea."

George found another "wife" called Maud Marsh and treated her just as badly as his other wives. Maud began to suffer from the same stomach illness. Her mother was suspicious and called in another doctor. Chapman was frightened and gave Maud a huge dose of poison, which killed her the following day. Chapman was arrested when Maud's body was found to contain a lethal amount of antimony.

His other two wives were exhumed and found remarkably preserved from the amount of antimony in their bodies. While Chapman was charged with three murders, he was convicted only of Maud's. He was hanged on April 7, 1903.

Retired Chief Inspector Abberline told the Pall Mall Gazette:

As I say, there are a score of things which make one believe that Chapman is the man; and you must understand that we have never believed all those stories about Jack the Ripper being dead, or that he was a lunatic, or anything of that kind. For instance, the date of the arrival in England coincides with the beginning of the series of murders in Whitechapel; there is a coincidence also in the fact that the murders ceased in London when Chapman went to America, while similar murders began to be perpetrated in America after he landed there. The fact that he studied medicine and surgery in Russia before he came over here is well established, and it is curious to note that the first series of murders was the work of an expert surgeon, while the recent poisoning cases were proved to be done by a man with more than an elementary knowledge of medicine. The story told by Chapman's wife of the attempt to murder her with a long knife while in America is not to be ignored.

There were other factors that led to Chapman being a suspect: He was single at that time and had the freedom to roam around at all hours of the night and morning; he worked a regular job which kept him occupied during the week but allowed him weekends free when the murders all occurred. He was violent and homicidal with women and committed multiple murders of women.

There were, however discrepancies. One was age. Many eyewitnesses thought the killer was between 30 and 40 years old, while Chapman was 23 in 1888. Perhaps he looked older than his years. A more significant discrepancy was the difference between the Ripper murders and Chapman's poisonings. Abberline attempted to address that issue in the PallMall Gazette:

As to the question of the dissimilarity of character in the crimes which one hears so much about, I cannot see why one man should not have done both, provided he had the professional knowledge, and this is admitted in Chapman's case. A man who could watch his wives being slowly tortured to death by poison, as he did, was capable of anything; and the fact that he should have attempted, in such a cold-blooded manner, to murder his first wife with a knife in New Jersey, makes one more inclined to believe in the theory that he was mixed up in the two series of crimes.

Did Chapman murder a woman named Carrie Brown in Jersey City by strangulation, followed by mutilation? Possible, in the sense that Chapman may have been in New Jersey on April 24,1891, though no direct evidence implicates him.

In summary, there is a great deal to be said for suspecting George Chapman. The question that remains is whether or not the terrible mutilator known as Jack the Ripper changed his style to become the smooth poisoner George Chapman some years later.

I don't think OJ is the culprit. *If chosen b/c it's common to give a poison, then OK I see your reasoning. However, just a little research and using grapefruit juice (which is also common) and the fact it can with certain drugs slow down metabolism and do severe liver damage - and that's taken with some common drugs. Hear me out.....say person X is on one of the drugs listed on the "no grapefruit list" - Person Y comes along and either advertently or inadvertently gives person X grapefruit juice to drink when taking their drug. Bam....person X gets sick...possibly dies. (death has been known to happen with GFjuice and those drugs). *

a gradual painful death.

Cool find JR, but, that wouldn't really fit the Mercy Killer scenario.* Not that she had to be a mercy killer, I'm just saying that if she was trying to spare someone who was terminally ill, that would be an odd choice.*

But if she was some other kind of murderer, that would be a good poison to use.

I agree, Kato. I couldn't reconcile that either until I realized it said that about small doses. I'm still searching, but I'd think that logically there would be a faster death with a one or two large doses.

my feeling is that if she poisoned someone - it was by accident. Don't know....just a feeling. ???

Some more info on Mr. Chapman.

In opening the case, the Solicitor General said that the prisoner was indicted for the wilful murder on October 22 last year of Maud Marsh. At the date in question the prisoner and Maud Marsh were living together as husband and wife at the Crown public house, High street, Borough, a public house of which the prisoner was the landlord. The prisoner was known then, and for a long time previously, as George Chapman. On that date, at about half past 12 o'clock in the day, Maud Marsh died. She died in such circumstances and with such symptoms that the doctor very properly refused to give any certificate as to the cause of death until further inquiry was made. A post mortem examination was accordingly made, and it revealed that Maud Marsh had died from a metallic irritant poison known as antimony. All the parts of her body were found to be literally saturated with antimony. It was quite plain that a considerable dose must have been administered to her some few hours before her death. It was clear that there had been a continued dosing of the woman for some time, so that the poison permeated her blood and got into the various organs of her body. The real question for the jury to decide was, Was the antimony administered to her by the prisoner? Antimony was a metal, and it was introduced into chemical commerce as an ingredient - the main ingredient - in a powder called tartar emetic or emetic tartar. It was a white powder soluble in water and with no colour; and it was, therefore, an easy matter to introduce it either into liquids or into food or other medicine. If it had been introduced during life into any body it preserved that body after death so that even after several years the body might be recognized. The prisoner was Severin Klosowski. He was a Russian Pole. In his early days in Russia he studied medicine. He was apprenticed apparently to various surgeons in that country, and he appeared to have sought to become a junior surgeon. In 1888 the prisoner came to England and worked as a barber. In 1889 the prisoner was married, and his wife was still alive, but apparently she had not lived with him for many years. In 1895 the prisoner purchased a house in Tottenham in the name of Klosowski. About that time he seemed to have become acquainted with a girl named Chapman, and he appeared to have taken the name of George Chapman. He did not think that from that date, 1895, onwards the prisoner ever returned to his original name. In March, 1896, he was living at Hastings. He was there living with a woman named Isabella Spink as Mr. and Mrs. Chapman. While at Hastings he was acting as a barber. On April 3, 1897, he purchased from a chemist named Davidson an ounce of tartar emetic, which contained 437 and a half grains. Two grains had been known to be a fatal dose. From ten to 12 grains would ordinarily prove fatal. An ounce of tartar emetic would contain about 146 grains of metallic antimony. The book which had to be signed when poison was purchased was signed in his name. A most curious example of the preservation of evidence was to be found in the fact that when the prisoner was arrested, and when his goods had been taken possession of by the police, the label which had been put by the chemist on the tartar emetic was found. It also appeared that while he was at Hastings the reading of medical books still had some attraction for the prisoner, because, although he was a barber, he purchased some medical books from the chemist. In September, 1897, the prisoner and Isabella Spink removed from Hastings to the Prince of Wales public house in Bartholomew square, near Finsbury, where they lived in the name of Mr. and Mrs. Chapman. Isabella Spink died on December 25, 1897, and was buried at St. Patrick's Cemetery at Leyton. At Easter, 1898, when still at the Prince of Wales public house, the prisoner took as assistant in the public house a girl named Bessie Taylor, the daughter of a Cheshire farmer. Shortly afterwards they appeared to have gone through some form of marriage; and they lived together at the Prince of Wales as Mr. and Mrs. Chapman. On March 23, 1899, they moved to a public house called the Monument, in Union street, Borough. On February 13, 1901, Bessie Taylor died, and she was buried at Lymm, in Cheshire. He now came to the case under investigation - that relating to the death of Maud Marsh. Maud Marsh was a young girl 18 or 19 years of age, the daughter of Robert and Eliza Marsh, who lived at Croydon. In August, 1901, having advertised in a paper for a situation, she received an answer from the prisoner, in the name of George Chapman, from the Monument public house. Thereupon she and her mother saw Chapman with reference to her obtaining a situation in his public house. The prisoner said that he was a widower, but he stated that there was a family living at the top of the house. Both of these statements were false. The girl was induced to accept a situation at his public house. When she had been there some time she and the prisoner visited her mother, and the prisoner said that he wished to marry the girl. On October 13, 1901, the prisoner and Maud Marsh went out, saying that they were going to be married, and when they came back the girl had a ring on her finger, and she said that the prisoner had the marriage certificate. From that day they lived as man and wife down to the time of her death. By June, 1902, the prisoner had taken the Crown public house, and a girl named Florence Rayner was engaged as barmaid. When she went there Maud Marsh was apparently in good health. Florence Rayner had not been there long when the prisoner asked her to go to America with him. She replied, "No, you have your own wife downstairs; you don't want me." The prisoner said, "Oh, I could give her that (snapping his fingers) and she would be no more Mrs. Chapman. I can send you to America and can come on after you." Florence Rayner left the employment of the prisoner in July; but she afterwards visited the Crown public house, and the prisoner one day said to her, "If you had not been such a fool you would be in the Crown now." That date synchronized with the illness of Maud Marsh. In that month of July Marsh's sister came to see her, and the prisoner when asked where she was replied, "She is in bed dying fast." Her sister saw her and advised her to go to the hospital, but the prisoner opposed the idea. Eventually he gave some money to her to see a doctor; but her sister, instead of taking her to a doctor, removed her to Guy's Hospital, where she remained from July 28 to August 20. The doctors were never able to form any clear opinion as to what she was suffering from. When she was in the hospital and away altogether from the prisoner she recovered her health. On her going back to the Crown public house the symptoms of illness reappeared. On October 10 Dr. Stoker, who had attended Bessie Taylor, was consulted by the prisoner. The doctor prescribed some medicine for her. The prisoner alone gave her her medicine and food. The doctor suggested that the girl should go to the hospital; but the prisoner objected to it, and it was then proposed that she should have a nurse. The prisoner thereupon engaged a woman named Jessie Toon to act as nurse; but he still continued to administer her medicine and give her her food. He frequently felt her pulse, and on one occasion he used a stethoscope. On another occasion he brought her some brandy, but she could not take it. Her mother, who was in the room, on drinking some of it, found that it burned her throat. She got worse, and another doctor was called in at the request of the relatives, the prisoner being told that she was thought to be suffering from poison, to which he replied that he did not know how that could be unless it was some rabbit they had had to eat. He was told that the doctor did not find any arsenic in the rabbit. The prisoner said he could not tell how it was or what else it could be. About 12 o'clock on October 23 her mother noticed a change in the girl and called for the prisoner, who brought some more brandy, which she refused to take. Shortly afterwards she died. After the death the prisoner had a conversation with Dr. Stoker and asked him for a certificate. Dr. Stoker said he could not give one unless he had a post mortem examination. The prisoner said she had dies of exhaustion caused by diarrhoea and vomiting. Dr. Stoker asked what occasioned these; but he made no reply. Before the girl dies Jessie Toon, the nurse, told the prisoner she had overheard the doctor say to her mother that if Maud died she would himself go to the expense of a post mortem examination. The prisoner replied, "That is the mother who is doing that. She wants to have a post mortem to show me up. Be careful what you say to her and take notice of what she says to you. Ask her if she thinks there is anything wrong. She is a wicked old cat and will say anything." A partial post mortem examination was made by Dr. Stoker and other medical men, and traces of arsenic were found. A fuller analysis was made by Dr. Stevenson and Dr. Freyberger in the presence of the other doctors. The presence of tartar emetic to the extent of 20.12 grains was detected. Two grains had been known to kill a person. There was found in the house a bottle which had been recently washed, in which were the remains of some white powder. On this being analysed the presence of antimony was found. Dr. Stoker had never prescribed antimony, and had not had it in his surgery for the last ten years. Antimony was practically not used now as a medicine at all. The prisoner was arrested on the charge. In reply to it he said he knew nothing about it and did not know how she got the poison. She had been to Guy's Hospital for the same sort of sickness. He would not, he said, have hurt her for the world.


The Solicitor General was proceeding to refer to the circumstances attending the deaths of Isabella Spink and Bessie Taylor, when Mr. Elliott objected that the Crown were not entitled to go beyond the indictment charging him with the murder of Maud Marsh, and were limited to matters covered by that indictment.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/times/19030317.html

I know this doesn't seem at first glance to fit here, but I couldn't help wondering if there was something we should take away from it.* It's from DEM, after the transplant.

Perhaps Kate was, or posed as, a nurse?


I went back and watched this episode. Kate is in the scene before and after wearing the orange t-shirt. I don't think the nurse was going to give Locke anything to calm him down, he had just come out of surgery and the anesthesia was just starting to wear off. He was up set but not overly. I think the nurse was really getting him juice. He probably needed liquids and they might want to make sure his other kidney was functioning properly.

I don't think Kate poisoned anyone. I think the person was dying and she probably just OD'd them on morphine. But it looks like there were a bunch of responses while I was typing. I'll be back.

Just popping into your amazing thread to mention this:

I'm pretty sure methadone (synthetic substitute for heroin) is given in orange juice.

Carry on. :)

Why shoot them when you can OD them?

Well, for one, ODing them is not exactly fool-proof, especially if they are in a hospital setting. *Whatever she did, if it was a mercy killing, I would think the juice would have been for giving something to sedate them. *

Now, if she were a nurse, and someone had given the patient a nearly fatal dose, and Kate not knowing this, followed with a regularly prescribed medication....that would change things. *She might have given the final dose, but be unaware of what had come before. *OR, the person could have taken the drugs on their own prior to Kate giving the final dose. *In which case she might look guilty, and not be.

While searching transcripts today I found this to support the Kate has nursing skills theory.

(Jack stares at the fire. Kate walks up to him and puts a make-shift sling around his neck. He chuckles as she adjusts it.) KATE: (smiles) Made you something.

Hum...This could just go along with here survival skills but I like it. Where would she have had the time to fit nursing into the small window of time open. Does she have to go to college to be a nurse? She's been running for 3-4 years. We think she's around 25.

This, of course, would make Jack's story about fear, in the pilot episode, tie in with more than Kate's fear about the monster. Why make Kate be a nurse, why couldn't she have been a med student? The problem is we still have a very small window of time where this might fit in.

It's possible to get an associates degree in nursing (ADRN) in just a little over 2 years.
She could have become a nurse by the age of 21.


I don't think Kate poisoned anyone. I think the person was dying and she probably just OD'd them on morphine. But it looks like there were a bunch of responses while I was typing. I'll be back.

I don't think she poisoned anyone either, but I'm not sure trying to ease a dying persons pain and accidentally overdosing them would get her into such serious trouble. When my mother was dying, the hospice nurse told me that I shouldn't feel guilty if I was the last to give her her meds. She needed them and I shouldn't withhold them for fear of overdosing her just because it wasn't time yet.

I'm not sure trying to ease a dying persons pain and accidentally overdosing them would get her into such serious trouble.

Shootfire, how about if she broke into a hospital's medical stores and got a restricted substance, gave it to someone (maybe too soon since last dose) and the patient died.* And what if Kate had been seen in the vicinity of both the break-in and the death room?* Just speculating.* As you know (guessing from your post) it is very nerve-wracking to be with someone you love who is in pain and the medical staff say only one thing, "It's too soon for more meds." You want to grab them and squeeze the next dose out of them! I have found it soooo hard to be in that position a time or two. Kate is the type to take things into her own hands!

Well, if she were a nurse, a break-in would not be likely. It would have been readily available on the medication cart, even if she had to take it from another patients meds. If she were off the street and did something like that, sure, big trouble.

It's possible to get an associates degree in nursing (ADRN) in just a little over 2 years.
She could have become a nurse by the age of 21.

I don't think she poisoned anyone either, but I'm not sure trying to ease a dying persons pain and accidentally overdosing them would get her into such serious trouble. When my mother was dying, the hospice nurse told me that I shouldn't feel guilty if I was the last to give her her meds. She needed them and I shouldn't withhold them for fear of overdosing her just because it wasn't time yet.

Nursing school is possible. Can we fit in the possibility that she also had a baby and left Tom, the boy looks 5 or 6?

I think, if Kate killed anyone, they asked her to do it. That's, also, why the Marshal says "Are you going to do it?" But She can't shoot him.

Both the Marshal and Tom have both implied that she might get off or they would go easy on her. If Kate was involved in an assisted suicide it would depend on the state she was in wouldn't it.? Her crime may be that she started running.

Can we fit in the possibility that she also had a baby and left Tom, the boy looks 5 or 6? Yes, please. This is one of my pet Kate thoughts.

Can we fit in the possibility that she also had a baby and left Tom, the boy looks 5 or 6?

I don't see a problem with it. *If she graduated high school at 17 or 18, married, and had a baby, she could still have graduated from an ADRN program. *If she started nursing school at 18 and became pregnant anytime in the last 8 months of school, no big deal. *Or, she could have had the baby before she started school. *I would think, though, that if she left Tom it was because of her fugitive status. *He doesn't seem to hold much of a grudge.

If she were off the street and did something like that, sure, big trouble.

Shoot, this is what I was thinking. *

Kate walks up to him and puts a make-shift sling around his neck.

Waltisfuture, Girl Scouts learn the rudiments of first aid, including how to make a sling and a tourniquet. *Could be part of Kate's survival training skills (where ever she got those). *

Let's fit in the tilte of the episode. BORN TO RUN. We see Kate with all the license plates in her car. I'm guessing that these are all skills Kate learned from someone she knew. Plus how to alter a passport.

The nursing school or med school could fit but I don'e think so.

Even from the time of the tape it seem Kate was in running mode. If trouble hit she was more inclined to want run than face the problem. On the island there isn't much choice.

Kate

Claire, I think this is about the time you're supposed to start pushing, okay? So, push.

[Claire holds her breath.]

Kate

And, don't hold your breath, honey. You won't be able to push if you. . . Claire? Claire, what are you doing? Oh, no, no, no, Claire, you need to push, right now. Don't do this, Claire, okay? You can't stop this - this is happening. Your baby is coming and I need your help.

It is kind of funny how she went from being unsure, to knowing exactly what must be done and when.

Let's fit in the tilte of the episode. BORN TO RUN. We see Kate with all the license plates in her car. I'm guessing that these are all skills Kate learned from someone she knew. Plus how to alter a passport.

If she was running with her father for some reason, she could have learned these things. Then, when she was caught, she might have been sent to live with her mother. Still, she always wanted to run so she could find her father.

Kate

It is kind of funny how she went from being unsure, to knowing exactly what must be done and when.


Yes, I think she had a baby when she was young - 17-18. My feeling is that she went on the run shortly after the baby was born.

Yes, I think she had a baby when she was young - 17-18. My feeling is that she went on the run shortly after the baby was born.

I agree, baby at a young age.

Dad on the run from the military? Kate wants to find him?

Dad on the run from the military? Kate wants to find him?

I guess my question is, why would he take Kate with him? Why wouldn't he send her to her mother? Unless her real mother was dead, and Diane is a foster or adoptive mother.

I guess my question is, why would he take Kate with him?* Why wouldn't he send her to her mother?* Unless her real mother was dead, and Diane is a foster or adoptive mother.

That's how I'm seeing Diane. Or stepmom.

I agree Sam Grant. Kate trying to find her missing father - probably AWOL from the Army. I see Diane as a stepmom - probably the only one she ever knew.

Kate could have done a Sawyer....wanted to peform euthanisia on someone who was really suffering but someone else took the poison by mistake...

And I say again that just because you have had a baby it does not necesarily mean you can deliver a baby. I have had three. You do NOT want me in the delivery room. I would do a Hurley.

but if you had not had one - or had some experience delivering them how would Kate know when to push?

but if you had not had one - or had some experience delivering them how would Kate know when to push?


Because Jack told her when the contractions were 60 seconds apart...she should push. The contractions are very regular....

sam --i support this theory and i cannot wait for more clues into it in season2.

Sam Grant - I think, if Kate killed anyone, they asked her to do it. That's, also, why the Marshal says "Are you going to do it?" But She can't shoot him.
This supports a mercy killing theory and makes me think it was her dad.

Sam Grant - Let's fit in the tilte of the episode. BORN TO RUN. We see Kate with all the license plates in her car. I'm guessing that these are all skills Kate learned from someone she knew. Plus how to alter a passport.
I like the baseball theme, and when I read this I wondered about the places on the license plates corresponding with major baseball teams.* Is Kate a sports doctor person (there's a name for it), or could she be following the play offs?
LuvMySayid - Just popping into your amazing thread to mention this:
I'm pretty sure methadone (synthetic substitute for heroin) is given in orange juice.
Charlie may have detoxed before and went on methadone
Shootfire, how about if she broke into a hospital's medical stores and got a restricted substance, gave it to someone (maybe too soon since last dose) and the patient died. And what if Kate had been seen in the vicinity of both the break-in and the death room? Just speculating. As you know (guessing from your post) it is very nerve-wracking to be with someone you love who is in pain and the medical staff say only one thing, "It's too soon for more meds." You want to grab them and squeeze the next dose out of them! I have found it soooo hard to be in that position a time or two. Kate is the type to take things into her own hands!
Kate would so do that, she is very impulsive, without thinking about the consequences.
Bess2728 - I agree Sam Grant. Kate trying to find her missing father - probably AWOL from the Army. I see Diane as a stepmom - probably the only one she ever knew.
I get a feeling Kate is good, and she has been running for a noble cause, so I think her dad was framed or a P.O.W. or running from something himself.

Because Jack told her when the contractions were 60 seconds apart...she should push. The contractions are very regular....



I don't know. For me there's a big difference between thinking, ok the contractions are about 60 seconds apart. Maybe it's time to push.

And this:
Kate

And, don't hold your breath, honey. You won't be able to push if you. . . Claire? Claire, what are you doing? Oh, no, no, no, Claire, you need to push, right now. Don't do this, Claire, okay? You can't stop this - this is happening. Your baby is coming and I need your help.

Emphasis added by me.. :)

But...maybe it's just me. Maybe she's remembering what was said to her in the delivery room, or maybe she's had some training she doesn't want to admit to having. Maybe it's both.

There is nothing in that scene that makes me think Kate has had any experience with delivering a baby either in the delivery room or by having one herself.

First...you time the contractions. Then when they are 60 seconds apart...you tell the mom to be to push WITH THE CONTRACTION. Claire was just sitting there when Kate said 'Ok..push'. You don't just start pushing willy nilly. You have to be working with your body to push the baby out. Pushing in between contractions would be a waste of energy. You rest between contractions.

Now maybe it was bad research on the part of the writers...but it didn't strike me that Kate was all that experienced.

Well, I would rewatch it so I could see what you're talking about, but I'm going to have to take your word for it, because I really didn't like that part. :lol2:

There is nothing in that scene that makes me think Kate has had any experience with delivering a baby either in the delivery room or by having one herself.

First...you time the contractions. Then when they are 60 seconds apart...you tell the mom to be to push WITH THE CONTRACTION. Claire was just sitting there when Kate said 'Ok..push'. You don't just start pushing willy nilly. You have to be working with your body to push the baby out. Pushing in between contractions would be a waste of energy. You rest between contractions.

Now maybe it was bad research on the part of the writers...but it didn't strike me that Kate was all that experienced.



JACK: *Tell Kate to wait until the contractions are sixty seconds apart. *You
got that? *(Charlie nods.) *Now, she's gonna need to make sure that Claire
pushes, but not too hard, not too fast -- just until the head is clear, and then
as hard as she can. *Now, when the baby is out, make sure she clears its nose
and its mouth.

If Kate had a child, I consider it a possibilty but not a fact, I'm not sure she had medical assistance. What if she was on the run when she was pregnant? Had the baby and left it with Tom?

None of this is fixed, just posibilities that appear to be proved or disproved.

We need to remember that Jin had a major part in the pre-delivery. He got there and managed to calm Claire while Charlie & Kate talked.

Later

I think the whole quote shows that Kate did wait until the contractions were a mminute apart. Charlie comes and gives instructions to Kate and Jin comforts Claire. When Charlie went to Jack the contractions weree 2 minutes apart.

The whole transcript
http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?action=post;msg=399969;topic=19326.60;se sc=b8dc6687ade76bf6bf8919cc8603b45b

[KATE AND CLAIRE] *

(Claire gasps through a contraction.) *

KATE: *Claire ... (gently) *I think this is about the time you're supposed to
start pushing, okay?

(In the background, Jin and Charlie step a distance away from them.) *

KATE: *So, uh, push.

(Claire takes a deep breath.) *

KATE: *And ...

(Claire holds her breath.) *

KATE: *Don't hold your breath, honey. *You're not gonna be able to push if you
hold *--

(Claire stubbornly doesn't breathe.) *

KATE: *(alarmed) *Claire? *Claire, what are you doing?

(Stubbornly, Claire holds her breath.) *

KATE: *Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Claire, you need to push right now. *
(desperately) *Don't do this, Claire, okay? *You can't stop this. *This is
happening. *Your baby is coming and I need your help.

(Claire exhales and takes heaving, gasping breaths of air.) *

CLAIRE: *(crying) *It's not going to want me.

KATE: *What?

CLAIRE: *It knows I don't want it and I was gonna give it away. *Babies know
that stuff.

(Kate looks at Claire and nods understandingly.) *

KATE: *Do you want this baby now? *Hmm? *Do you want it to be healthy and safe?

(Claire nods.) *

KATE: *Okay. *Because your baby knows that, too. *You're not alone in this. *We
are all here for you. *This baby is all of ours. *But I need you to push, okay? *
Okay? *Okay.

(Claire leans back to push.) *

KATE: *On the count of three. *Ready? *One ... two ... three, push. *(Claire
pushes.) *Go ahead. *Good. *Push.

(Claire grunts through the effort.) *



(Nearby behind the fallen tree, Charlie and Jin wait. *Claire pushes, her cries
painful. *Charlie immediately takes a step to go to her, but Jin puts a firm
hand on his shoulder.)

(Charlie turns and looks at Jin.)

(Jin shakes his head, no.)

(Charlie settles back.) *

CHARLIE: *Yeah. *Right.

KATE: *(o.s.) *Good, *good. *Yeah, that's good.

(Jin lets go of Charlie's shoulder.)

CHARLIE. *Okay. *

KATE: *(o.s.) *Push. *Push. *

CHARLIE: *Okay.

(Charlie sighs as he settles down to wait.) *

All it says to me is that Kate was following Jack's instructions. Anyone here who has never had a baby or been in a delivery room (unless you are like me. :laugh:) could have followed his instructions. When the contractions are 60 seconds apart...at the next contraction..you tell the mom to be to push. Its not rocket science and you don't need previous experience to do it.

I'm not against the possiblity that Kate has had a kid...I'm just not seeing the evidence from this scene.

All it says to me is that Kate was following Jack's instructions. Anyone here who has never had a baby or been in a delivery room (unless you are like me. :laugh:) could have followed his instructions. When the contractions are 60 seconds apart...at the next contraction..you tell the mom to be to push. Its not rocket science and you don't need previous experience to do it.

I'm not against the possiblity that Kate has had a kid...I'm just not seeing the evidence from this scene.

No not from this scene or that she had previous medical training.

Another thing that may fall in the catagory for no medical training, aside from wilderness training. In DNH Kate sees Sun talking to Sawyer about his headaches. She goes to Jack and asks him to help, even knowing how they feel about each other. If she had medical training I think she might have tried to get more information from Sawyer before she went to Jack.
(Medical training still up in the air)

I know most theories don't have much to back them up but I just don't see anything the writers have given us that supports Kate having been pregnant. If Kate had been pregnant and given up her child she would have shown some type of emotion prior to the birth of Aaron and afterward. She is only involved because Jack trusts her and can't do it himself. I also haven't seen anything that suggests her having had medical training. When the pulled Charlie down from the tree and Jack was working to revive him, Kate is off to the side crying. If she had any training at all she would have gone into (medical) mode, training kicks in without you even thinking about it. IMHO, she has not exhibited any proficiency in the medical field. I'll use Sun as an example, she seems to have some training because she has found solutions for situations. When Shannon has the asthma attack, Sun finds the eucalyptus leaves, She also finds the solution for the transfusion. I don't believe she has formal training but she exhibits more knowledge than Kate does.

I still like the original theory of Kate's original crime being a mercy killing because her character needs something major to rehabilitate her. Her running caused Tom's death. Her wanting the Toy Plane caused her to plan and organize a bank robbery during which she shot a couple people. She needs a sad story to explain how she is a good person in spite of her actions.

I could actually she it having been her father who was ill and asked her to do it. From the brief picture we have of her father, he was not the type that would want to hang on when death was eminent. Her mother(could be stepmother) may not have know that Kate's father asked her to do it. That is why she cried for help when she saw Kate. Keep in mind that Kate never expected that reaction from Diane.

I could actually she it having been her father who was ill and asked her to do it.* From the brief picture we have of her father, he was not the type that would want to hang on when death was eminent.* Her mother(could be stepmother) may not have know that Kate's father asked her to do it.* That is why she cried for help when she saw Kate.* Keep in mind that Kate never expected that reaction from Diane.



That would help make sense of that wierd scene between Kate and Diane.

Just for clarity, I was using the word poison loosely -- as in, whatever was in the juice that caused someone to die.* (An overdose of aspirin would still be poison, for example.)* But it would have to be something that you couldn't taste in orange juice, or else something where you only needed a teeny amount.*

I'm not so sure she'd need medical training of any kind to give someone a fatal amount of whatever in a glass of juice.* All she would need is the drug and a person who was still able to sip liquids from a glass.* The patient could have been at home with a day nurse coming by periodically, or something.

As for delivering a baby -- even I know that they're supposed to push with the contractions and rest in between, so I think that evidence is a teeny bit thin but that's not to say I dismiss the idea of her having had a child. It would make sense actually, because so many of the Lostaways have child/parent issues.* I wouldn't be shocked at all to find out she had a baby and gave it away or that it was taken away and put in foster care.

Check out this thread: http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=19342.0- there is an interesting discussion going on about Kate being in an orphanage/foster home.* It was also suggested that maybe the adults were doing an experiment on those kids, and somehow used the orange juice.*

So, combining the two threads, I am thinking maybe Kate knew about the experiment and was trying to stop it or whoever was in charge was trying to stop her (that's why she was running all the time).* She probably tried to tell someone, but nobody believed her story (which relates back to the marshal telling her that someone might beleive her).

edited to fix link

her child she would have shown some type of emotion prior to the birth of Aaron and afterward You'd think....but Kate is a good experienced hider of the truth (even from herself). I don't think she would let on even the weenest bit to Claire et. al. that she had a child etc...

No, the evidence of her having a child is not just from the birth scene - it's from the scene with Tom and the photos in his house, her conversation with Claire over the baby sensing etc etc etc....

I was wondering - who had a watch to time the contractions?

You'd think....but Kate is a good experienced hider of the truth (even from herself). I don't think she would let on even the weenest bit to Claire et. al. that she had a child etc...

No, the evidence of her having a child is not just from the birth scene - it's from the scene with Tom and the photos in his house, her conversation with Claire over the baby sensing etc etc etc....

I was wondering - who had a watch to time the contractions?*


I agree. I thought her behavior at Tom's house a bit odd. Why not ask about BOTH kids? However I thought the thing about the thing with the baby 'sensing' things was just to calm Claire down. I could be wrong of course.

I don't know if he still had it but Charlie had a watch in earlier episodes.

It's interesting that we don't see it, even though we have a scene that actions should be done at specific time intervals! Like everything on this island - the time part is hidden!

The original theory still stands as I have posted. Medical training and Kate having a baby are all explorations taken and the right piece of information hasn't presented itself to have either of those suppositions fit, yet.

Another possibility occurred to me today. Perhaps Kate was accused of a mercy killing. Suppose there was a glass of orange juice on the table of someone she was visiting. The person got upset, and Kate offered them the orange juice. Her fingerprints would be on the glass. There may have been a witness that she gave the orange juice to the person. Yet, she didn't intend a mercy killing. She was set up. You'll notice that the marshall asked Kate if she would be the one to do it. She didn't though. Sawyer did. In a case like that, I suppose even poison is possible. Hmmm.....

CLAIRE:* (crying)* It's not going to want me.
KATE:* What?
CLAIRE:* It knows I don't want it and I was gonna give it away.* Babies know
that stuff.* (Kate looks at Claire and nods understandingly.)*
KATE:* Do you want this baby now?* Hmm?* Do you want it to be healthy and safe? (Claire nods.)*
KATE: * Okay.* Because your baby knows that, too.* You're not alone in this.* We
are all here for you.* This baby is all of ours.* But I need you to push, okay?* Okay?* Okay.
*

Sam Grant, I still think this is great evidence (as skimpy as it is, but it is Lost) that she had a baby.* When I read it now, it has so much more meaning (or possible meanings)* *???

Kate nodding understandingly, after Claire says that Baby's know!, used to mean sympathy, but now means that she has experienced the same situation, when she had to choose to give up her child, for the greater good?

Kate - Do you want it to be healthy and safe?* She had to make that choice, and it wasn't safe with her?

Kate - Because your baby knows that, too.* *She has told herself this many times?

Kate -* You're not alone in this. We are all here for you.* This baby is all of ours.* *This means more than just the obvious, but I haven't a clue yet.* It might mean more in the future.

CLAIRE:* (crying)* It's not going to want me.
KATE:* What?
CLAIRE:* It knows I don't want it and I was gonna give it away.* Babies know
that stuff.* (Kate looks at Claire and nods understandingly.)*
KATE:* Do you want this baby now?* Hmm?* Do you want it to be healthy and safe? (Claire nods.)*
KATE: * Okay.* Because your baby knows that, too.* You're not alone in this.* We
are all here for you.* This baby is all of ours.* But I need you to push, okay?* Okay?* Okay.
*

Sam Grant, I still think this is great evidence (as skimpy as it is, but it is Lost) that she had a baby.* When I read it now, it has so much more meaning (or possible meanings)* *???

Kate nodding understandingly, after Claire says that Baby's know!, used to mean sympathy, but now means that she has experienced the same situation, when she had to choose to give up her child, for the greater good?

Kate - Do you want it to be healthy and safe?* She had to make that choice, and it wasn't safe with her?

Kate - Because your baby knows that, too.* *She has told herself this many times?

Kate -* You're not alone in this. We are all here for you.* This baby is all of ours.* *This means more than just the obvious, but I haven't a clue yet.* It might mean more in the future.

I'm not saying it not possible. I pointed out that Kate calls Claire "Honey" several times. A sign of affection we don't see directly from Kate.

I think the scene at Tom's makes so much more sense if the older child is theres. But I think there are links we haven't found that will make it fit so I'm still looking.

Another possibility occurred to me today.* Perhaps Kate was accused of a mercy killing.* Suppose there was a glass of orange juice on the table of someone she was visiting.* The person got upset, and Kate offered them the orange juice.* Her fingerprints would be on the glass.* There may have been a witness that she gave the orange juice to the person.* Yet, she didn't intend a mercy killing.* She was set up.* You'll notice that the marshall asked Kate if she would be the one to do it.* She didn't though.* Sawyer did.* In a case like that, I suppose even poison is possible.* Hmmm.....


Ah good point.* There have been plenty of setups and cons on the show.* And that scenario would mirror the Sawyer/Kate/Marshal one.* And reverse-mirror Kate/Sun/Jin.

Perhaps somebody set Kate up -- whoever was caring for the sick person.

on the Locke, Kate and Baseball thread
http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=19342.msg455504#msg455504

it was brought up that Sunkist is the sponsor for Little League baseball.
The old Sunkist World headquarters building* is in the San Fernando Valley and is used a lot on Alias as a federal building.

Someone mentioned that orange slices are given out at the games and that the Orange smile that Locke did is something you see the kids do at these games. So ther is speculation that Locke might have been a baseball coach. The Westhills baseball cap is Kate's and that Locke might have been her coach. Kate may have remembered Locke and he might have an idea who she is.

Any room here for Agent Orange?

Any room here for Agent Orange?

Yes, if we can get some more information on Kate's dad. That's where I would see it fitting in.

Found a song about Agent Orange...its by R.E.M. and its called "Orange Crush'.


Follow me, don't follow me
I've got my spine, I've got my orange crush
Collar me, don't collar me
I've got my spine, I've got my orange crush
We are agents of the free
I've had my fun and now its time to
Serve your conscience overseas (over me, not over me)
Coming in fast, over me
(repeat verse)
High on the booze
in a tent
paved with blood,
nine-inch howl,
brave the night,
chopper comin' in, you hope.
We'd circle and we'd circle and we'd circle to stop and consider and
centered on the pavement stacked up all the trucks jacked up and
our wheels in slush and orange crush in pocket and all this here county
hell any county it's just like heaven here and I was remembering and I
was just in a different county and all then this whirlybird that I
headed for I had my goggles pulled off I knew it all I knew every back
road and every truck stop

Seems Michael Stipe's dad (lead singer) flew Helicopters in Vietnam and was around the stuff. Of course the lyrics are a bit cryptic which is their trademark.

Another possibility occurred to me today.* Perhaps Kate was accused of a mercy killing.* Suppose there was a glass of orange juice on the table of someone she was visiting.* The person got upset, and Kate offered them the orange juice.* Her fingerprints would be on the glass.* There may have been a witness that she gave the orange juice to the person.* Yet, she didn't intend a mercy killing.* She was set up.* You'll notice that the marshall asked Kate if she would be the one to do it.* She didn't though.* Sawyer did.* In a case like that, I suppose even poison is possible.* Hmmm.....


When Kate went to the hospital to see her Mother - it seemed like see really knew that hospital. When I go to the hospital I really have to look around ask someone where is this, whatever. It just seemed to me that it was a very familiar place for Kate. Maybe she was a nurse and did a mercy killing.

That has been speculated but we are trying to figure out where she would have had the time to go to college and fit in nursing school.

Any room here for Agent Orange?


This might bring us back to Apocalypse now and Colonel Kurtz.

What was the characters name that said, "I love the smell of Napalm in the morning"?

Agent Orange could cause kindey damage/failure

It is rumored that Disney's ghost can be seen in many associated buildings, such as the Disney Gallery at New Orleans Square in Disneyland, and in the old Sunkist bar also at Disneyland. (Stolen from WIF in Dark Continent)
There is a Sunkist connection to Disney.

About the Orange futures line in Numbers.

KEN HALPERIN (ACCOUNTANT): Your interest in orange futures skyrocketed after
those tropical storms hit Florida, and you are now the majority shareholder for
a box company in Tustin.

Hurley's orange futures would then be California/World based, if I understand this correctly. No oranges in Florida means that everyone is buying oranges from other places. Sunkist?

Scurvy is prevented with "oranges"

Slave ship, pirates etc.

Going to look up the syptoms. Could give us a clue to our "sickness"

i love it..... 8) (not scurvy, the theory! ) ???

What I was thinking was it could be a clue to the syptoms of the sickness* *???

http://www.riparia.org/scurvy_sx.htm

The biochemistry and action of Ascorbic acid, (Vit. C) is not fully understood. The end result is primarily that the "ground substance", (the glue that holds together the collagen fibers, (the basic structural members of connective tissue)), and the collagen fibers themselves, deteriorate. Basically imagine all the fibers, (e.g. tendons and ligaments) and bones, of your body becoming unglued. In addition, the walls of your capillaries and other vessels become weak and burst.

The primary lesions of scurvy relate to bleeding and swelling and inflamation of soft tissues and bone. Wounds don't heal because you can't make collagen. Bleeding occurs into the skin around the roots of all your hairs, which later fall out. Swollen gums bleed, the jaw bone softens, and eventually your teeth fall out. Hemorrhaghic spots develop in your eyelid linings. There's painful bleeding into your joints, and into the surface membrane of bones, causing crippling pain, and eventually spontaneous breakage of bones. Eventually you're coughing up blood and possibly asphyxiating. Bleeding develops in the intestines, leading to black, and then bloody, horrifically foul smelling stools. Anemia, weakness. Emotional lability. Bleeding into the sack around your heart so your heart can't fill with blood and pump. Bleeding around the brain, compressing it, causing headache, vomiting, eventually coma and death as your brainstem is crushed as your swollen brain pushes itself down into the spinal canal.

Mark Anderson, M.D.

Grotesque, but there could be a clue in there * *???


Your body stores a fair amount of vitamin C. Therefore, symptoms of scurvy don't generally develop until 2 or more months of deprivation.

We're coming up on that time in Season 2.* Are we going to see sypmtoms of the sickness?


http://www.home-remedies-for-you.com/remedy/Scurvy.html

Scurvy is, perhaps, the oldest known deficiency disease. However, its specific relationship to ascorbic acid was not recognized until the 20th century. 'The disease is common among children and is often mistaken for rheumatism, rickets, or paralysis.

*note to self:* look up deficiency disease's** *Note: paralysis


Home Remedies for Scurvy - Indian Gooseberry - Lime and Lemon - Mango Powder - Potato - Jaundice Berry

Could the cure for the sickness be so simple?


Dietaries for Scurvy: Mother's milk
The most important factor in the prevention and treatment of scurvy is proper feeding. After birth, all children should be breast-fed wherever possible.

Baby Aaron is safe from the sickness, due to breastfeeding!!!


Outdoor exercises and fresh air exposure
The patient should also undertake outdoor exercises like walking, swimming, and cycling. He should sleep in a well ventilated room, and spend as much time as possible in the fresh air.

The beach people are definately getting fresh air and I doubt sleeping in the caves would make much of a difference?


http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/s/scurvy/underly.htm

Underlying conditions list: The list of possible underlying conditions mentioned in various sources for Scurvy includes: Inadequate diet, Vitamin C deficiency, Homelessness and Alcoholism

There appears to be a lot of this on Lost.* Jack and his dad.* Charlie and Liam.* Sawyer?


http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/disease/symptoms.htm

Symptoms of the Silent Killer Diseases

Many diseases are silent killers in that they are silent (no symptoms or only vague symptoms), and that they are deadly. There are a number of diseases that are known as "silent killers" because they gradually consume you without causing any serious symptoms in the early stages.

Are the lostaways sick already and don't know it?


In the US: Scurvy is rare in the United States. Patients at risk include those with chronic malnutrition, such as persons with alcoholism, elderly people, and men who live alone (widower scurvy). Other reported cases include people with monotonous or peculiar diets, including patients undergoing dialysis and those with malabsorption, inflammatory bowel disease, Whipple disease, or dyspepsia (those who avoid acidic foods). Scurvy may occur in infants fed evaporated or condensed milk formulas.

Widower scurvy and dialysis scream Locke!!!* * Again with alcoholism.* What diseases affect the kidney's?* * *No evaporated milk on Craphole Island.

We haven't been shown it but I assume fruit makes up a big portion of their diet, does anyone know what kind of edible fruits one could expect on a pacific island?

Fruits (and fruit-like things) available on Lost Island:

Coconuts (not a fruit), Bananas (not a fruit), Papayas, Guava, Passion Fruit, Mangos, Starfruit - "Carambola"

There's lots of citrus fruits, so I don't think the sickness is scurvy.

No, neither do I Blamo. I think it's a clue to something else, like the cure to the "sickness" will be something they can find on craphole island, or something just as obvious ???

Back I want to make sure I stay connected.

i would have to agree with lostbylost on this. my theory Kate killed her father(she comes across as a daddys girl for some reaosn) because he was sick and asked her too, but her family blamed her (no one believed her father asked for it) and off course she broke the law so she ran - leaving he new husband(tells sawyer marriage didnt last long) and baby behind. so when her mother was sick she was orginally happy but thought Kates coming to finish me off or something so screamed for help?!?

but i reckon she may have been on the run already, if some euthinises(SP?) their father/family member they dont get chased to the other side of the world and have dialogues with the pursuent agent and learn how to track/handle guns/rob banks etc. also the fact that she put the oxygen mask on the agent as the plane was going down and saving the farmer shows she is not a cold blooded killer.

she is a puzzle but it will come clear soon i reckon, i hope!!

also how she is referred to is probably important
mother calls her katherine
tom calls her katie
agant calls her Kate
everyone on island calls her kate
farmer calls her annie
that might come into play

another addition:
Thomas(tom) left Claire because of the baby maybe Kate left Tom(thomas) because of their baby.

I just watched Locke give Kate the orange smile again. Her reaction could be because she is taking the shoes of a dead guy. But I really like the baseball connection.

It could also be that Kate gave her dad 'extra' medicine for pain....not intending for him to die. She might have accidently given him too much and that finished him off. However there would be no way for her to 'prove' that she had benign intentions so she was accused of murder. That would tie in with the phrase "What I SUPPOSEDLY did'.

That could fit or being blamed for something she didn't do, like Sawyer.

It could also be that Kate gave her dad 'extra' medicine for pain....not intending for him to die. She might have accidently given him too much and that finished him off. However there would be no way for her to 'prove' that she had benign intentions so she was accused of murder. That would tie in with the phrase "What I SUPPOSEDLY did'.

I'm trying to recall something I read on the lage recently, and this post is the perfect place to start.

Kate drugged Jack so he could get some sleep, she helped Sun poison the water and there was another connection someone had made???

Add elfdreams idea, and she's a regular Kevorkian.

Just popping into your amazing thread to mention this:

I'm pretty sure methadone (synthetic substitute for heroin) is given in orange juice.

Carry on. :)

Methadone is usually given as a pill, unless the patient is unable to swallow pills. In that case, it is injected into the I.V. I am positive of this, as I take methadone for pain every day. It looks like and is the size of an aspirin.

Methadone is usually given as a pill, unless the patient is unable to swallow pills. In that case, it is injected into the I.V. I am positive of this, as I take methadone for pain every day. It looks like and is the size of an aspirin.
I tried to edit this but wasn't having any luck :huh:
Also, I don't think someone could disolve methadone in a drink unnoticed. It has the same type of bitter taste that aspirin has.:yucky:

I'm trying to recall something I read on the lage recently, and this post is the perfect place to start.

Kate drugged Jack so he could get some sleep, she helped Sun poison the water and there was another connection someone had made???

Add elfdreams idea, and she's a regular Kevorkian.

I wouldn't say the water was poisoned but something was put in it to give you bad stomach cramps. Even a laxative will do that.

Yes, Kate was behind Sun giving the water to Jin. Although it is not clear if Kate suggested it, unprompted or Sun expressed a desire to stop Jin from going and Kate came up with the solution, which would also give her access to the extra spot on the raft.

Pills can be crushed and put into drinks.

I think Kate pitched for Westhills. She throws rocks well and accurately. Just needed to write this down

On the DVD commentary for Pilot Part 2, JJ, Damon and Burky draw a lot of attention to the Marshall's Juice line, and compliment the actor's delivery of the line...

On the DVD commentary for Pilot Part 2, JJ, Damon and Burky draw a lot of attention to the Marshall's Juice line, and compliment the actor's delivery of the line...

rreeeaaaalllyy

I always thought that scene was a little hinky.

Off to find the transcripts :)

Thanks for the heads up Partyman

I'm not convinced that they mean anything by it other than to compliment the actor's delivery.

Though anyone following any kind of crazy "Juice Theory" could certainly use it as ammunition.

Oh you're welcome. Just thought you lot would want to know. ;)

The Juice scene

Sayid and Sawyer are accusing each other of being the Marshall's prisoner, while Kate plays coy.

[As Sawyer turns, Kate grabs the gun and turns it on him.]


Kate - Does anybody know how to use a gun?
Charlie - I think you just pull the trigger.
Sayid - Don't use the gun.
Kate - I want to take it apart.
Charlie - Oh!
Sayid - There's a button on the grip. Push that, it will eject the magazine. There's still a round in the chamber, hold the grip, pull the top part of the gun.

[Kate gives the magazine to Sayid and the gun to Sawyer.]

Sawyer grabs Kate's arm. I've known girls like you
Kate - I'm not so sure.
Sawyer - Yeah, I've been with girls like you.
Kate - Not girls exactly like me.

[Kate walks off to a flashback.Shot of Kate on the plane.]


FACan I get you a refill?
Kate - No. I'm fine with this. Thank you.
FAYou sir, can I get you anything? Cocktail? Soda?
Marshal - Just coffee sweetheart, black.
FA (looking disgusted by the ≥sweetheart≤)Coffee, sure.
Marshal - You look worried. I'd be worried, too, If I was you. But you've got to stay positive, kiddo. You know, there's always that off chane that they'll believe your story. I know I sure did.
Kate - I don't care what you believe.
Marshal - Oh, I know that's true. That has always been true. You sure you don't want some more juice?
Kate - Yeah, I'm sure.

[Shot of Kate with hands cuffed. Then the turbulence starts to happen. FA's seatbelt announcement.]


Kate - I have one favor to ask.
Marshal - Really? This ought to be good!

[The big drop with woman hitting the ceiling. A big black/silver case hits the Marshal on the head. He passes out. The masks come down and Kate can't reach because of the handcuffs. She gets the key from the Marshal's pocket. Undoes the handcuffs. Puts her mask on and then puts a mask on the Marshal. The back of the plane rips off.]



I thought Kate asked the Marshall to give the reward money to Ray the farmer?

I thought Kate asked the Marshall to give the reward money to Ray the farmer?



I am pretty sure she did (it has been months since I saw the pilot, lol.)

But I am almost certain it happens after the crash when the Marshall is dying and he askes Kate what she was about to say on the plane (Or words to that affect).


Kitten.

I am pretty sure she did (it has been months since I saw the pilot, lol.)

But I am almost certain it happens after the crash when the Marshall is dying and he askes Kate what she was about to say on the plane (Or words to that affect).


Kitten.

Yeah, I think the scene where Kate tells him what the favour was is from Tabula Rasa.

Sam G...your brainpower is scary! Wow!

I just glanced at this thread a bit, and looked at your Sawyer 20K post. Awesome ideas!

I love the juice theory! However, the Locke's orange smile would have creeped me out regardless of my past....

Also...."The Juice" is a nickname for OJ Simpson. This is far-fetched, but could the juice comment could also refer to Kate's getting away with murder(s)? (At least having gotten away for 5 years)

We've got a baseball theory....might as well have a football theory too!

Another JUICE - Acronym for Joint User Interoperable Communications
http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/2004/ts_121704.html

PS. By the way WIF....what the heck is "hinky" LOL!

Sam G...your brainpower is scary! Wow!

I just glanced at this thread a bit, and looked at your Sawyer 20K post. Awesome ideas!

I love the juice theory! However, the Locke's orange smile would have creeped me out regardless of my past....

Also...."The Juice" is a nickname for OJ Simpson. This is far-fetched, but could the juice comment could also refer to Kate's getting away with murder(s)? (At least having gotten away for 5 years)

We've got a baseball theory....might as well have a football theory too!

Another JUICE - Acronym for Joint User Interoperable Communications
http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/2004/ts_121704.html

PS. By the way WIF....what the heck is "hinky" LOL!

*waves at Kimber*

Hinky = Something as yet undefinable is wrong, out of place; not quite right.
There's something hinky about the deal.

Sam G does have "mad skills" at finding connections.

I love the OJ connection you've made, and I'm sure Sam G will fit it in somehow. ;)

Yeah, I think the scene where Kate tells him what the favour was is from Tabula Rasa.


Thanks Partyman! I knew it was one of the early ones, but I couldn't remember exactly which one... I haven't seen those ones since March :biggrin:


Kitten.

Let's not forget that OJ's daughter is named Sydney, and there is a lot of "Sydney" theories on the boards.

Let's not forget that OJ's daughter is named Sydney, and there is a lot of "Sydney" theories on the boards.

What's his sons name?

What's his sons name?

Justin

Justin


After reading this thread, I was half expecting a LOST name to come up then, LOL.


Kitten.

Me too. Putting it on the back burner. You never know with this show.

Ooooo....OJ's jersey number was 32....which is 23 backwards! Yikes!

On the DVD commentary for Pilot Part 2, JJ, Damon and Burky draw a lot of attention to the Marshall's Juice line, and compliment the actor's delivery of the line...
Thanks Partyman :biggrin: (No Big orange smile?????)

Not sure how I would incorporate the OJ Simpson stuff into this????The trial was long over. The only slight connection might be implying getting away with murder but I think the Juice line is much more than that.

I think you're onto something with the orange juice and killing, but I don't think it was a mercy killing. Not in the traditional sense anyways. I think Kate grew up in an abusive home and in order to save herself and possibly her mother, she killed her abuser. In Born to Run, when they listened to the tape they made as kids, she made reference to wanting to get away. It sounded like her homelife situation was bad, not that just living in their town was the reason. Also, the comment about "they go easy on..." (I'm paraphrasing, can't remember exactly here) goes along with the way abused victims who strike back at their abusers are treated.

I think the abuser wasn't her father, but maybe a stepfather or her mother's boyfriend. If Kate had done a mercy killing and her mother knew about it, there would be no reason for her to be afraid of Kate, and she was definitely afraid. However, if her mother thought Kate had murdered someone, had maybe even caught Kate red-handed, she would have reason to worry, especially when in such a vulnerable state. It's also likely that Kate's mother didn't know about the abuse, making it even more scary to her if she saw, or was told by the police that Kate killed her abuser. She wouldn't know why, and to her her daughter would just seem like a vicious murderer. I wouldn't be surprised if she turned Kate in, adding to their estrangement and her fear of Kate's retaliation.

I don't think the person she killed was her actual father, because she seemed sincere when she told Jack about going tracking with her dad when they were searching for Charlie. And she seemed like she liked her dad. As much as she lies, I think that when Kate says she's telling the truth, she tells the truth.

And lastly, when she and Sawyer were playing I Never, and she drank when killing a man came up, I don't think she was drinking about Tom. She feels guilt over being the cause of his death, but she didn't actually kill him. I think she was drinking for the man she really did kill.

I think the abuser wasn't her father, but maybe a stepfather or her mother's boyfriend. If Kate had done a mercy killing and her mother knew about it, there would be no reason for her to be afraid of Kate, and she was definitely afraid. However, if her mother thought Kate had murdered someone, had maybe even caught Kate red-handed, she would have reason to worry, especially when in such a vulnerable state. It's also likely that Kate's mother didn't know about the abuse, making it even more scary to her if she saw, or was told by the police that Kate killed her abuser. She wouldn't know why, and to her her daughter would just seem like a vicious murderer. I wouldn't be surprised if she turned Kate in, adding to their estrangement and her fear of Kate's retaliation.

I don't think the person she killed was her actual father, because she seemed sincere when she told Jack about going tracking with her dad when they were searching for Charlie. And she seemed like she liked her dad. As much as she lies, I think that when Kate says she's telling the truth, she tells the truth.




Unfortuately, this often isn't true. There have been numerous case of often quite severe child abuse going on for quite some time that Mothers are in fact aware of and do nothing to stop. Often in these cases,the Mothers are also being abused and are often too powerless or too frightened to stop it. This can happen with Fathers, Step-Fathers, Boyfriends or anyone who happens to big in the situation. There have also been cases where the child (or victim) has killed the abuser and has been blamed by the rest of the family for committing the murder. Children and wives can still love their abusive husbands/fathers and to the outside world can appear to have quite a normal, healthy family relationship (Kate tracking with her Father)... that is one of the things that makes the cycle so hard to break. If the senerio is correct, Kate's Mother may simply see the person who murdered her husband, not the child who killed her abuser.


Kitten.

I certainly agree with what has been said in the last few posts. Sam....I know the OJ trial is long over....but it is the most famous case of abuse and the eventual murder of the abused. Kitten...your last sentence is rather haunting. I think you are definitely onto something there.

I agree on the that1's point made with Tom, and Kate drink's not referring to him. I think about the Black Rock....and lordy I did not see that coming. Or Locke's wheelchair. Let's face it....TPTB are very much into misleading and surprises. With Kate, I think it's likely that her father and/or stepfather may have been a murderer....perhaps he killed a first wife, or even another child. And it could be that Kate ended up following in the footsteps of a person she abhorred the most. Perhaps she killed that person before he could kill/hurt someone else. And thus set into motion "Like father, like daughter," (which I've borrowed from another thread).

If we assume the writers are intentionally misleading us (and I like it when they do!) then maybe Danielle's radio broadcast mentioning "the others are dead" (which is being debated as Shannon could have inserted a word or two) doesn't refer to her team as the others. Maybe she is speaking of the bizarre twin Others.... those who took Walt are really the Night of the Living Dead variety of Others. The UnDead.

Another thing I've been thinking about is common threads with the characters. I love the character-centric back stories...but what if everyone has a story similar. For example, "All Good Cowboys Have Daddy Issues" is Jack-centric. But....it could be that each of the characters is a cowboy in their own right. It's quite obvious that many, if not all, have Daddy Issues. So....we know that Hurley's back story was "Numbers," but it's already been shown that many of them have a Numbers Issue. (Dang....there's an issue for everything nowadays!)

So maybe we need to expand our thinking of the characters and the epi's. It could be that they were brought to the island for having the same "issues" but in different ways. That they are all kindred spirits due to their experiences "lining up" before the crash. Maybe we can look at certain points in their lives aligning. Like planets aligning, and causing the End of the World. Maybe the character's planets aligned, because it surely caused the ends of their worlds as they knew it (cue REM).

Back to Juice....I was glancing at IMDB because I thought OJ was in "Airplane," which he wasn't. But I came across this movie (which I've not heard of...and I'm a movie buff) and thought the character names were rather interesting.....this is truly grasping at straws, but we have a Clair (Clare in the movie), Alex, Danielle, etc. V. strange. Of course, it could be my mind being all Lostified and such....

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073241/fullcredits

Apologies if my theories have been posted before....had to rush out the door and didn't have the time to search first....

I think you're onto something with the orange juice and killing, but I don't think it was a mercy killing. Not in the traditional sense anyways. I think Kate grew up in an abusive home and in order to save herself and possibly her mother, she killed her abuser. In Born to Run, when they listened to the tape they made as kids, she made reference to wanting to get away. It sounded like her homelife situation was bad, not that just living in their town was the reason. Also, the comment about "they go easy on..." (I'm paraphrasing, can't remember exactly here) goes along with the way abused victims who strike back at their abusers are treated.

I think the abuser wasn't her father, but maybe a stepfather or her mother's boyfriend. If Kate had done a mercy killing and her mother knew about it, there would be no reason for her to be afraid of Kate, and she was definitely afraid. However, if her mother thought Kate had murdered someone, had maybe even caught Kate red-handed, she would have reason to worry, especially when in such a vulnerable state. It's also likely that Kate's mother didn't know about the abuse, making it even more scary to her if she saw, or was told by the police that Kate killed her abuser. She wouldn't know why, and to her her daughter would just seem like a vicious murderer. I wouldn't be surprised if she turned Kate in, adding to their estrangement and her fear of Kate's retaliation.

I don't think the person she killed was her actual father, because she seemed sincere when she told Jack about going tracking with her dad when they were searching for Charlie. And she seemed like she liked her dad. As much as she lies, I think that when Kate says she's telling the truth, she tells the truth.

And lastly, when she and Sawyer were playing I Never, and she drank when killing a man came up, I don't think she was drinking about Tom. She feels guilt over being the cause of his death, but she didn't actually kill him. I think she was drinking for the man she really did kill.
For some reason I am resistant to the abuse theory. Tom brushes it off too easily when Kate says she wants to run away. "You always want to run away". And Kate says "and you know why". Kate even says it of herself, when things seem to get bad she would rather run. Killing an abuser with juice seems too nice. (and that sounds terrible.)

As for Kate tracking with her father...I didn't read it as being a warm moment between them. An information moment, maybe, but the writer's are tricky and have told us through the Marshal we can't believe what Kate says.

As for Diane/Kate's mom? There is the confusion of Kate calling her Diane and Mom. Which puts her in the step-mom book for me. I think Diane would be afraid of Kate if she believed Kate was involved in a mercy killing. Diane is in the hospital for cancer after all.

If the senerio is correct, Kate's Mother may simply see the person who murdered her husband, not the child who killed her abuser.


Kitten.

Yeah that's what I was getting at, that's would be why she was afraid.

For some reason I am resistant to the abuse theory. Tom brushes it off too easily when Kate says she wants to run away. "You always want to run away". And Kate says "and you know why". Kate even says it of herself, when things seem to get bad she would rather run. Killing an abuser with juice seems too nice. (and that sounds terrible.)

As for Kate tracking with her father...I didn't read it as being a warm moment between them. An information moment, maybe, but the writer's are tricky and have told us through the Marshal we can't believe what Kate says.

As for Diane/Kate's mom? There is the confusion of Kate calling her Diane and Mom. Which puts her in the step-mom book for me. I think Diane would be afraid of Kate if she believed Kate was involved in a mersey killing. Diane is in the hospital for cancer after all.
Yeah, I know, Tom isn't overly concerned, but if we go with the theory that perhaps he was also living in some sort of foster care, and was familiar with that type of situation, then he might not be as phased by her being treated badly and wanting to run away. In general, kids that young don't repeatedly dream of running away unless there's something bad going on. Plus I keep coming back to that line "They go easy on..." they certainly don't go easy on cold blooded murderers, no matter what method they might use.

I am leaning more though to the idea that everyone thinks Kate killed for a justified reason when in fact she didn't kill at all, was just found in an incriminating position by people who refused to listen to her and believe the truth. Probably because she was a big liar and a troublemaker even then. I still think the person was a stepfather though, because so many people seem to have the missing/distant/absent father problem on this show.

I don't think that Kate and Jack's moment was warm at all. I'm just saying, mostly Kate lies. The few times someone has demanded she tell the truth about her life, and she responds with info and swears she's telling the truth, she seems to actually be. I think she told the truth about her dad.

Finally, got the DVD and was able to watch all of BTR.

It seems Tom is a Doctor. He is parking in the Physician's parking. I also kept thinking Tom looked sooo familiar, DOH, Mackenzie Austin, Sean Austin's brother.

Finally, got the DVD and was able to watch all of BTR.

It seems Tom is a Doctor. He is parking in the Physician's parking. I also kept thinking Tom looked sooo familiar, DOH, Mackenzie Austin, Sean Austin's brother.



And he's also the former roommate of Dom Monaghan....:cool:

On the DVD 19:37 in, Eddie the Security guard at Anthony Cooper's there are 2 pictures taped up on the wall, one is a woman and girl ??? both brown hair. (could this possibly be Kate ?) And the bottom picture 2 guys standing in front of a car?

Could this be Kate's dad? I know it might be far fetched but....I'll have to play with this for alittle while.

Yes, Sam G.

I would be thrilled if you could fit Eddie "The Gatekeeper" into this scenario, or any scenario for that matter. I tried to get posters excited about him, but noone bit.

Just the fact that he's a Gatekeeper, was enough for me to think he was important. With all the religious references in Lost, I think he is important???

Also, WiF, Eddie is part of Cooper's "Security System" ...

That's too true Todell. If we give Sam G enough supposition, she should be able to connect it for us. :cool:

I hope you're not getting tired of hearing this Sam G, but the bits you've brought together so far, have amazed me.

I went back and the pictures aren't at the gate the first time, they are there the second time and the third time they are gone again but in the third on there is a framed drawing of a woman on the side wall @ 40:25 on the DVD, very brief. It is not there the 1st time.

If the pictures had no meaning why would they bother......

Closer inspection of 2nd picture Black & White. Looks like maybe 2 people sitting on a picknic table at a rest stop.

I went back and the pictures aren't at the gate the first time, they are there the second time and the third time they are gone again but in the third on there is a framed drawing of a woman on the side wall, very brief.

If the pictures had no meaning why would they bother......

Especially, when the writers have said that every prop has meaning.

Hurley's oranges have to fit in . It was probably a Hurley orange in Locke's mouth

from Numbers

I would think you'd be happy. Every one of your stocks is up. Your interest in orange futures skyrocketed after those tropical storms hit Florida.

Do you think this is a connection between Locke and Sawyer? And possibly Kate? After all, he does flash Kate that orange smile, and he is connected to Hurley through the box company. Does he somehow know about Sawyer? And how would he know about Kate and the orange juice, unless Kate has something to do with drugging entire groves of oranges for the common good? Okay, even that sounds a little stupid to me. But is there something there anyway?

Here's something else. How does Sun know anything about medicine? She seems to know herbal remedies for all sorts of things. In DNH she tells Jack to "Give him this" to probably put Boone out of his misery. When Jack says he needs to set Boone's leg, Sun says "Let me." She obviously knows something about properties of plants for medicinal purposes. And what about drugging the water that Michael drank down at the raft? Did Kate really tell her how to do it, or just give her the idea? Or maybe Kate is just covering to return the trust Sun showed her by speaking Engilsh.

We don't know. She may have had formal training or the study of herbs and the properties of the various plants may have been a serious hobby.

Do you think this is a connection between Locke and Sawyer? And possibly Kate?

My guess is they are all going to be connected somehow, somewhere before the crash. If anyone has played the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon game, connections are pretty easy to make. Plus....we know that everything that has happened to them has "happened for a reason."

And I never thought to think of the guard at Coop's house as the "Gatekeeper." I love that! It makes me wonder if Danielle ends up being the island's gatekeeper. So....in honor of Gatekeepers everywhere.....our "Monty Python Quote for the Day:"

Monty Python and the Holy Grail (from imdb.com)

Bridgekeeper: Hee hee heh. Stop. What... is your name?
King Arthur: It is 'Arthur', King of the Britons.
Bridgekeeper: What... is your quest?
King Arthur: To seek the Holy Grail.
Bridgekeeper: What... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
King Arthur: What do you mean? An African or European swallow?
Bridgekeeper: Huh? I... I don't know that. [Bridgekeeper is thrown over the edge]
Bridgekeeper: Auuuuuuuugh.
Sir Bedevere: How do know so much about swallows?
King Arthur: Well, you have to know these things when you're a king, you know.

Now if I can just find a Monty Python Juice quote.....

Hurley's oranges have to fit in . It was probably a Hurley orange in Locke's mouth

from Numbers

I would think you'd be happy. Every one of your stocks is up. Your interest in orange futures skyrocketed after those tropical storms hit Florida.

Do you think this is a connection between Locke and Sawyer? And possibly Kate? After all, he does flash Kate that orange smile, and he is connected to Hurley through the box company. Does he somehow know about Sawyer? And how would he know about Kate and the orange juice, unless Kate has something to do with drugging entire groves of oranges for the common good? Okay, even that sounds a little stupid to me. But is there something there anyway?

There is a brach off of the theory with Locke in it. Being Kate's baseball coach when she was young. It still doesn't quite fit for me but we're still working on the pieces. But I found pictures in Eddie, Anthony Cooper's Security Guards booth, a woman and a girl, that hold the possibility of being Kate and her mom, Now I'm working on how that would fit into the puzzle.

Watching the commentary on the DVD for this episode, JJ abrahms and the writer are joking about how the marshall says 'juice' they make fun of it for a good 2 minutes hehe.. so I don't know if they'd make fun of something with that much significance.. but maybe they would! Still, a good theory!

I think the reason the Marshall said it like that was just because he's a ******* though.

I have a question.......
Would there be such a big and expensive "manhunt" for Kate if she were involved in a mercy killing?
Would there have been such a big reward?
Would the search have reached Australia?
Would a Marshal be sent to capture her?
Seems to me the blue heelers could have packaged her up ready for transportation without the need for any sneaky car tricks.
Yeah, I do remember the bank heist, but even so........

I think Kate's reason for wanting to run away from childhood, and the manhunt, are tied into the numbers. Remember, she reacted with great curiosity to Hurley when he was reciting the numbers. In this scenario, she encounters the numbers as a child (perhaps her Dad served with Lenny and Sam Toomey in the Pacific - they heard the the transmission around 1988, just before Kate & Tom's recording) and uses them somehow, and bad things begin to happen to those around her. Kate wants to run to spare her loved from suffering, Diane begins to fear Kate's Mojo, and eventually Kate gets blamed for the carnage the numbers leave in her wake.

Watching the commentary on the DVD for this episode, JJ abrahms and the writer are joking about how the marshall says 'juice' they make fun of it for a good 2 minutes hehe.. so I don't know if they'd make fun of something with that much significance.. but maybe they would! Still, a good theory!

I think the reason the Marshall said it like that was just because he's a ******* though.
On the DVD they complimented the actor for his delivery of the word "juice." I don't believe they were "making fun" of it. I think it was probably a hard direction to give an actor. If there is nothing connected to the word, why mentioned it?
Bornzebear
I have a question.......
Would there be such a big and expensive "manhunt" for Kate if she were involved in a mercy killing?
Would there have been such a big reward?
Would the search have reached Australia?
Would a Marshal be sent to capture her?
Seems to me the blue heelers could have packaged her up ready for transportation without the need for any sneaky car tricks.
Yeah, I do remember the bank heist, but even so........ I don't believe the "Marshal" is a real "US Marshal". I believe he is probably a bounty hunter, who fell in love with Kate and hates that he is obsessed with her. Love/Hate a two sided coin and when you can't have one you will settle for the other.

Crackers/nArzt:
I think Kate's reason for wanting to run away from childhood, and the manhunt, are tied into the numbers. Remember, she reacted with great curiosity to Hurley when he was reciting the numbers. In this scenario, she encounters the numbers as a child (perhaps her Dad served with Lenny and Sam Toomey in the Pacific - they heard the the transmission around 1988, just before Kate & Tom's recording) and uses them somehow, and bad things begin to happen to those around her. Kate wants to run to spare her loved from suffering, Diane begins to fear Kate's Mojo, and eventually Kate gets blamed for the carnage the numbers leave in her wake. I believe that Kate has some knowledge of the numbers as they apply to herself, she recognizes 23. She also has the same element of fearlessness that Hurly sometimes demonistrates. I think we are going to start to find out that certain of the numbers are connected to other characters and numbers that haven't been considered important numbers will be important. Like Jack and the #5.

I have a question.......
Would there be such a big and expensive "manhunt" for Kate if she were involved in a mercy killing?
Would there have been such a big reward?
Would the search have reached Australia?
Would a Marshal be sent to capture her?
Seems to me the blue heelers could have packaged her up ready for transportation without the need for any sneaky car tricks.
Yeah, I do remember the bank heist, but even so........

It would depend on who she 'mercy' killed. Would it be someone who had left her a big wad of cash in his/her will? Some 'important' person?

It could be she was wanted for that initially but during her life on the run charges started to add up. If you are a fugitive you probably do a lot of things outside of the law just to survive. The 'mercy killing' might just have been the first of many 'offenses.'

I hear what you are saying, Elfdream, and nicely put too.....
But surely, mercy killing is a plot twist that can make Kate a wanted murderer, BUT, also allow her to be a "goodie" in the final revelations.
If she had gone on to commit worse crimes after the mercy killing, then the "goodie" aspect of her character has been destroyed and therefore cannot look for a "happy ending" plotwise that I think most of the viewing public want.....Unless death gives an escape?

I hear what you are saying, Elfdream, and nicely put too.....
But surely, mercy killing is a plot twist that can make Kate a wanted murderer, BUT, also allow her to be a "goodie" in the final revelations.
If she had gone on to commit worse crimes after the mercy killing, then the "goodie" aspect of her character has been destroyed and therefore cannot look for a "happy ending" plotwise that I think most of the viewing public want.....Unless death gives an escape?

"If"? As in, if she robbed a bank and shot people in the process?

It's a little late in the game for her to be a "goody" in the traditional sense of the word. However, IMO she is not inherrantly bad.

I think she has perfectly reasonable moral and emotional validations for her actions. Unfortunately, I am not as confident of her having legal reasons.

"If"? As in, if she robbed a bank and shot people in the process?

It's a little late in the game for her to be a "goody" in the traditional sense of the word. However, IMO she is not inherrantly bad.

I think she has perfectly reasonable moral and emotional validations for her actions. Unfortunately, I am not as confident of her having legal reasons.


I agree with you entirely...as far as we know.
I keep remembering the rollercoaster ride of the episode with Locke's flashbacks.
All things are still possible within the general framework of the series and I am sure there is a lot of pressure to give Kate a "happy ending" for the prime time viewers.
Okay, yeah, I admit it....I would get pretty sad if her story resolves "bitter/sweet", besides anything else, I WANT there to be a happy resolution just to see how the team acheives it without stretching the credibility of the character.

I have to admit that what made me read this thread was how the producers commented on how the marshal said the word "juice" during the commentary on the dvd. I agree with the juice theory as it was originally stated except for the part about a mercy killing. I think Kate did kill someone but it was in self defense. I think in some way, she or someone close to her lika sibling was being abused in some way. Perhaps that why we hear her speak of wanting to run away on the tape in the time capsule and making the comment to her boyfriend about him knowing why she wants to run away.

I have to admit that what made me read this thread was how the producers commented on how the marshal said the word "juice" during the commentary on the dvd. I agree with the juice theory as it was originally stated except for the part about a mercy killing. I think Kate did kill someone but it was in self defense. I think in some way, she or someone close to her lika sibling was being abused in some way. Perhaps that why we hear her speak of wanting to run away on the tape in the time capsule and making the comment to her boyfriend about him knowing why she wants to run away.The problem with that is, she also said that Tom knew why. If it was something that dire I don't think he would have teased her about it. I think Kate's wanting to run away is because she was sent to live someplace she didn't want to be.

Perhaps Tom only had limited knowledge about her situation and did not realize how serious her circumstances may have been. Kate is not eager to offer too much information about herself and she may have always been that way.

Perhaps Tom only had limited knowledge about her situation and did not realize how serious her circumstances may have been. Kate is not eager to offer too much information about herself and she may have always been that way.She was the one who said and you know why. To me that means he understands the problem. Anything is possible but this is from the tape, when Kate was much younger and trusted Tom. Tom amybe the only person Kate ever really trusted.

YOUNG TOM: (from tape) Is it on? I don't think it's on.

YOUNG KATE: (from tape) It's on.

(Both Kate and Tom smile as they listen to their younger selves.)

YOUNG TOM: (from tape) Okay, this is Kate Austin and Tom Brendon, and this is,
our dedication for our time capsule here on August 15th, 1989 -- Hey, give me
that back.

YOUNG KATE: (from tape) Why are you putting this stupid plane in there?

YOUNG TOM: (from tape) Because it's cool, Katie. I got it when I flew to
Dallas by myself.

YOUNG KATE: (from tape) Ooh, that is cool -- just like this time capsule.

YOUNG TOM: (from tape) It'll be totally cool when we dig it up in, like, twenty
years.

YOUNG KATE: (from tape) How do you know we'll be together?

YOUNG TOM: (from tape) 'Cause we'll be married. And you'll be a mom, and we'll
have nine kids.

YOUNG KATE: (from tape) (chuckles) I don't think so. Soon as I get my
license, we should just get in a car and drive -- like, you know, run away.

YOUNG TOM: (from tape) You always want to run away, Katie.

YOUNG KATE: (from tape) Yeah, and you know why.

I'm wondering if Kate's bank robber boyfriend, Justin, had a brother and his name was Kevin. Sarah's fiancee Kevin. For some reason they 2 guys remeind me of each other.

Lost Illusion I think there's a chance that a scene in Deus Ex Machina relates to this. During Locke's initial encounter with his father, he's offered a glass of wine. His dad feeds him the BS story about their past, and at the moment when you're unsure whether Locke is going to believe it, his dad asks, "So are you going to drink that or what?" So in that case, drinking the wine offered to him is associated with believing the lies.

With Jack and Desmond, it may or may not be significant that Desmond gave Jack water instead of wine. A different liquid could hold a different meaning.

However, if the water has any relevance at all, I think it is something figurative like with Locke, and nothing on a plot level.

Remind you of a certain glass of OJ. I don't recall seeing that the medicine was orange looking and there was a glass of OJ on Desmond's kitchen table.

Just wanted to tell you that I've been telling everyone I know (that watches LOST of course ;) ) about your theory on Kate, and they are all in agreeance that you are 100% correct! :D
Bravo! I'd been racking my brain to understand what that whole transaction between her and the marshall on the plane had to do with, and I couldn't figure it out. I knew there was some reason why he asked her specifically if she wanted more juice and she gave him a look, said no, and drank it anyway. ;)
I don't know that I buy into the idea that that's why she wears orange shirts sometimes, but I think you're right about her reason for being wanted by the law!

Just wanted to tell you that I've been telling everyone I know (that watches LOST of course ;) ) about your theory on Kate, and they are all in agreeance that you are 100% correct! :D
Bravo! I'd been racking my brain to understand what that whole transaction between her and the marshall on the plane had to do with, and I couldn't figure it out. I knew there was some reason why he asked her specifically if she wanted more juice and she gave him a look, said no, and drank it anyway. ;)
I don't know that I buy into the idea that that's why she wears orange shirts sometimes, but I think you're right about her reason for being wanted by the law!Thanks! Not why she wears orange shirts but that we were being prompted by TPTB to think orange.
:biggrin: :biggrin:

Looking at all of our Lostaways, Kate is the only person that we don't have a real explanation as to why she was in Australia. She was running but why Australia? Still thinking about her original crime in connection to Juice and what else can be added to make it hard to believe. A mercy killing would be easy to believe, so what was the twist? Been watching the DVD's and taking particular note as to what the Marshal said and what Tom said.

Why Australia?

I have a brother who moved to New Zealand 3 years ago. Why?

The main reason was that he wanted away ... far far away from his life here ... and when you looked at a globe, New Zealand was the furthest English speaking country from where he was.

Why Australia?

I have a brother who moved to New Zealand 3 years ago. Why?

The main reason was that he wanted away ... far far away from his life here ... and when you looked at a globe, New Zealand was the furthest English speaking country from where he was.Well, Kate also said she was on her way to Bali. I think she's looking for someone. Still playing with ideas.

The thing that has nagged at me ever since Sam G posted the juice theory, is that Jack had juice too. His was just mostly vodka. Clearly he was drinking vodka and orange juice. My question is how the two of them might be connected by the orange juice and vodka. :)

The thing that has nagged at me ever since Sam G posted the juice theory, is that Jack had juice too. His was just mostly vodka. Clearly he was drinking vodka and orange juice. My question is how the two of them might be connected by the orange juice and vodka. :)Could have been grapefruit juice another favorite that goes with Vodka.
:biggrin: Kate did pull the juice trick on Jack with the sleeping pills after Boone died.

I hadn't tried fitting that juice into the theory because I don't see a Kate connection or even a way that it would be foreshadowing. But stranger things have happened

After we met Ana Lucia, I thought that might have been Jack's attempt to head to the back of the plane to find her. Another whole thread.

After we met Ana Lucia, I thought that might have been Jack's attempt to head to the back of the plane to find her. Another whole thread.

That's what I thought, too.

Trying to make another connection. Ana-Lucia and the Marshal. What if they were working together? Or she was married to him? She is as corse as he was. A-L certainly reacted to Sawyer saying he took the gun from a Marshal. ???????????????More to fit in.

Maybe Locke knew about the killing, and decided to tease
her. lol.

Well done, Sam G! Love the juice theory!!
just one thing...

drink apple juice.
OJ kills.....

:tomato:

:lostscape slinks out in shame:

Well done, Sam G! Love the juice theory!!
just one thing...

drink apple juice.
OJ kills.....

:tomato:

:lostscape slinks out in shame:

Lost...OMG....

You see? We are back to my OJ Simpson theory!

:pinch:

I love that theory behind her character. I still think that it is something other than a mercy killing. I think that there was something that she had stop, a monster of sorts, dating back to her childhood days. With her mother's reaction in the hospital, I am theorizing a father (or step father for that matter) that was just too close to his daughter.

I think Evangeline Lilly fits this part wonderfully, I hope her career after Lost takes off.

Again, very inuitive and well thought out on the juice poisoning theory.

I LOVE this character, it's so brilliantly done, especially by the writers, but Evangeline is doing a wonderful job playing her. Okay my theory for what it's worth. I guess I think she was a spy or something along the lines of sidney bristow from Alias. That would explain why she has a little bit of nursing experience, can use weapons as well as she can, and all that jazz. Don't forget Eve is fluent in french, which could play a part later on. Just because she didn't use it to translate danielle's message could just mean she was trying to hide it. I'm not sure I think she had a baby, she didn't seem to overly interested in him. I think something went wrong and the wrong person got killed, therefore putting everything on her head. that's my opinion. That's why she has a heart, and is able to do what is necessary when it's necessary.

I love that theory behind her character. I still think that it is something other than a mercy killing. I think that there was something that she had stop, a monster of sorts, dating back to her childhood days. With her mother's reaction in the hospital, I am theorizing a father (or step father for that matter) that was just too close to his daughter.

I think Evangeline Lilly fits this part wonderfully, I hope her career after Lost takes off.

Again, very inuitive and well thought out on the juice poisoning theory.The reason the mercy killing came into the theory is because the Marshal asks her to kill him in the end. He asks her if he is going to die and she shakes her head yes. He says, are you going to do it?

Because he knew she was able to do it in the past, he hoped she would be able to do it now. That's my reasoning. There is a bond between the 2 of them that I have had a great time puzzeling out.

I agree, I love this character. I think Evie is doing a fantastic job. I love seeing new actors that bring no baggage with them. They are a blank slate.

KNJ thanks for your input too.

This isn't Kate related, but there was another orange reference tonight! In Jin's flashback his roommate told him love would come his way, when Jin asked what love would look like, his roomie said, "Orange."

This isn't Kate related, but there was another orange reference tonight! In Jin's flashback his roommate told him love would come his way, when Jin asked what love would look like, his roomie said, "Orange."


This thread is the first thing I thought of during that scene :smile:

Michael is wearing an orange shirt.

Weren't Sun and her possible love interest drinking orange juice?

Weren't Sun and her possible love interest drinking orange juice?

Totally. It jumped out at me like a sore thumb. It made me wonder what Sun and Jin were doing during the crash? When they've shown us flashbacks to the crash who's actions have we seen?

Kate and the Marshal

Rose and Jack

Charlie and the bathroom

Is that it? Maybe we will get more airplane shots with OJ drinkers?

I loved how the orange dress wasn't on Sun, but caused him to bump into her.

I don't have anything to really add to this, just that when they were drinking OJ in that scene I started yelling "Orange Juice! Orange Juice! They're drinking orange juice!" and Mr. Todell thought that I finally lost it.

I don't have anything to really add to this, just that when they were drinking OJ in that scene I started yelling "Orange Juice! Orange Juice! They're drinking orange juice!" and Mr. Todell thought that I finally lost it.

*lol* I didn't jump up and yell like that, but my eyes almost bulged out of my head.

On a related note, here's an interesting article on how juices are good iron enhancers. Orange juice is a very good iron enhancer, better than apple juice. Gonna go post this in the Iron Mike thread, too.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3225/is_5_70/ai_n6182502

HA, I also thought of this thread last night.:biggrin:
Locke's orange smile
Hurley's orange futures

Everything is connected.

Orange. You don't know how happy I was to hear that. First thing I thought was, have to get to this thread but then realized that everyone would beat me to it.

Michael and Kate both wear orange and green a lot. His dark, hers light.:biggrin:

Thought of this thread too!!! Loved that the dress on someone else made Jin bump into Sun :) And you could argue that the "sun" is orange haha

Looking at all of our Lostaways, Kate is the only person that we don't have a real explanation as to why she was in Australia. She was running but why Australia? Still thinking about her original crime in connection to Juice and what else can be added to make it hard to believe. A mercy killing would be easy to believe, so what was the twist? Been watching the DVD's and taking particular note as to what the Marshal said and what Tom said.

So, all the attention to the color orange made me look up orange (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_%28colour%29) on Wikipedia, and I learned some interesting things:

* In English heraldry, orange denotes strength, honour, and generosity. Its use as a heraldic tincture is relatively rare.

* Orange is the national colour of The Netherlands, due to its royal family originating from the French principality of Orange. It is the primary colour of many of the national sports teams and their supporters. The nickname of the Dutch national soccer (football) team is Oranje, the Dutch word for orange. In the modern flag of the Netherlands, red substitutes the original orange, but on royal birthdays the flag has an additional orange banner. Most geographical usages of the word orange can be traced back to Dutch maritime power in the 17th century. In Ireland the use of orange dates from the reign of William of Orange, the Protestant English king and a Dutch stadholder.

* Orange signifies Protestantism in Northern Ireland (see Orange Order) and Hinduism in India and Sri Lanka, and is used as a rallying colour by Jewish settlers in the Gaza Strip.

* Orange has become the colour of opposition around the world.


Maybe this isn't the right location for this as I think it's an extension of my rebel theory; but what if Kate is a rebel fighter of some sort? Perhaps she is working with a band of rebels that are fighting the Hanso Foundation and the Dharma Initiative. I still think the orange juice could have been used in some sort of poisining incident, and that's why the marshall emphasized it so. But what if she is some sort of agent that has been going around the world eliminating members of the Hanso project? It would explain what she was doing in Australia (perhaps going after a target there, maybe even Christian), and it might even explain the real importance of the toy plane--it could have some sort of transmitter inside of it, or be some sort of symbol of the resistance.

Just a thought.

In the restaurant scene when Sun and Mr. Lee are drinking the OJ, the background wall looks like it's either a mural or wallpaper of orange trees. Connections abound.

This is a great and thought-provoking thread!

So, all the attention to the color orange made me look up orange (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_%28colour%29) on Wikipedia, and I learned some interesting things:

Maybe this isn't the right location for this as I think it's an extension of my rebel theory; but what if Kate is a rebel fighter of some sort? Perhaps she is working with a band of rebels that are fighting the Hanso Foundation and the Dharma Initiative. I still think the orange juice could have been used in some sort of poisining incident, and that's why the marshall emphasized it so. But what if she is some sort of agent that has been going around the world eliminating members of the Hanso project? It would explain what she was doing in Australia (perhaps going after a target there, maybe even Christian), and it might even explain the real importance of the toy plane--it could have some sort of transmitter inside of it, or be some sort of symbol of the resistance.

Just a thought.
See such connections......DeGroot is a Dutch name and when you said "agent" I said "orange".

Orange you glad I didn't say banana?

*groan* :biggrin:

Followed Sam G over from another "orange" thread. Oranges abounded last night!

Glad I wasnt the only one to see the orange connection. As soon as i heard Jin's brother? mention the color orange I thought of this thread! It is either a) a connection b) has some meaning more than just a connection c) the cast/directors like oranges so they are plentiful d) someones brother owns an orance company e) tropicana is helping fund the show. hahaha

I dont know waht any of this means but i think we have all identified a substancial like... a link of something other than pulpy goodness

Thanks, maverick06, for pointing me here, what a fantastic thread!!!

Not sure if it quite fits, but I posted this on the other orange thread and it is... well... full of oranges... *g*:

Well, one leitmotif of the show is clearly the one of predestinaton versus self-determination, whether or not or lives are predestined or whether we shape our lives with our own free will and our own decisions. I think the episode played with those two sides very well.

When Jin first meets Sun, he is still working as a doorman, wearing an orange rose. But he bows so deeply he does not acknowledge her. Later the hotel manager asks him to give him the orange rose as he is about to meet Sun. The hotel manager makes the free choice to follow his American love to the US. When Jin and Sun finally meet, a girl in an orange dress passes Jin five seconds before he runs into Sun (it wasn't sun wearing the bright organge dress) and he has just quit his job.

What is interesting about it: When they meet for the first time - such as was predestined - they don't acknowledge one another, even though Jin is wearing the orange rose. Yet their REAL first meeting takes place after Jin makes the free decision to quit his job.

In other words, you could say they met twice: One meeting was the result of predestination, one was the result of a self-determinaton.

Anyway, just a bit of food for thoughts.

Glad I wasnt the only one to see the orange connection. As soon as i heard Jin's brother? mention the color orange I thought of this thread! It is either a) a connection b) has some meaning more than just a connection c) the cast/directors like oranges so they are plentiful d) someones brother owns an orance company e) tropicana is helping fund the show. hahaha

I dont know waht any of this means but i think we have all identified a substancial like... a link of something other than pulpy goodnessNot Tropicana..Sunkist. We went through this but I'm not sure it was this thread anymore, it maybe the Locke and Baseball Thread. (Note: May need to resurect.) The old Sunkist building in Sherman Oaks California on Hazeltine Blvd. They have used it many times on "Alias" as one of the Federal Buildings. Sunkist also has close ties to Disneyland.

Thanks, maverick06, for pointing me here, what a fantastic thread!!!

Not sure if it quite fits, but I posted this on the other orange thread and it is... well... full of oranges... *g*:

Anyway, just a bit of food for thoughts.


I'm not sure Jin or Sun noticed each other the first time.

I'm not sure Jin or Sun noticed each other the first time.

No, they didn't. That is what I meant, Sam G. They missed on the first meeting, that was destined and met on the one that was only made possible due to Jin's self-determination... ;)

WOW! I like it, I really, really like it.:)

After watching "Raised By Another" again, I noticed something....I dont know if it has been mentioned and frankly am feeling too lazy to look
The scene where Kate is sinking in the sand, she tells Jack that she used to do that with her mom. The look on her face said something to me...seemed very sad and I felt that Jack wanted to ask for more info but decided not to based on the look she had.
Just thought I would throw that out there cuz it made me think of this thread again.

Sam G, we discussed a while back that Jack was drinking orange juice and vodka on the plane. I don't remember if anyone mentioned the possiblity that Kate may have been a drunk driver responsible for someone's death. Maybe she was drinking to mask the pain of whatever was happening at home. Of course, that wouldn't rise to the kind of offense that would get her chased by a U.S. Marshall unless she escaped custody. Perhaps that was the way things started, but went bad from there, even to the point of killing someone like a step-father in retribution for ruining her life. It would make Kate sympathetic, yet guilty, and would echo her involvment in Tom's death.

Sam G, we discussed a while back that Jack was drinking orange juice and vodka on the plane. I don't remember if anyone mentioned the possiblity that Kate may have been a drunk driver responsible for someone's death. Maybe she was drinking to mask the pain of whatever was happening at home. Of course, that wouldn't rise to the kind of offense that would get her chased by a U.S. Marshall unless she escaped custody. Perhaps that was the way things started, but went bad from there, even to the point of killing someone like a step-father in retribution for ruining her life. It would make Kate sympathetic, yet guilty, and would echo her involvment in Tom's death.It wasn't just the orange juice but that Kate used it to admister sleeping pills to Jack after Boone died. She also instigated Sun to put something in Jin's water, which Michael drank. It doesn't work for me with the Marshal taunting her about the orange juice, if it was related to drunk driving.

I still haven't decided if Jack was drinking orange juice or grapefruit juice.

LostApril, Kate may have been talking about her real mom, I think Diane maybe her stepmom. Diane was in Iowa. Still a mystery.

It wasn't just the orange juice but that Kate used it to admister sleeping pills to Jack after Boone died. She also instigated Sun to put something in Jin's water, which Michael drank.

Yes, I see your point. Hmmm...It doesn't fit with the Lucretia Borgia image we've been getting of her lately. Still, it might depend on how she offed the step-father. :grin:

WIF, I'm going to quote you over here with the Anthony Cooper theory:
Anthony Cooper had an affair with his secretary(Helen), 20 years ago. She got pregnant and he got custody, thus the anger. He didn't allow Helen to see their daughter Kate, who was adopted by his then-wife Diane. He used to take his daughter hunting. (like he did with his son) Anthony contacted Helen and told her she could see Kate if she did this "mission" for him. The mission being, getting Locke off his back. Desperate to see her daughter, she accepts the mission and Anthony sends out a $23,000.00 reward for their daughters capture. Bounty Hunter Edward Maars takes up the challenge.
This would connect Anthony to Locke (son), Emily (exwife/mother of Locke), Helen (lover of both Anthony and his son Locke), Diane (wife #?), Kate (daughter) and the Marshall.
*************
Supporting evidence:

ANTHONY COOPER: You have a family of your own?

LOCKE: No, sir.

ANTHONY COOPER: Me neither. I tried it a couple times. It didn't take. Do
you hunt?


$23,000 always seemed a strange amount to me ($1000 for each year of her life?) If Helen was Kate's mom, they would have been in California=beach. If Helen had fits of anger she could have lost custody of Kate. Cooper's second wife, Diane moved to Iowa to get far away from Anthony Cooper.

What if Kate started to run because she got wind that Cooper wanted her kidney? Or she did something that caused Cooper to move? Did she do something to Eddie unintentionally? Did she try to kill Cooper because he tried to do to her what he did do to Locke?

I'd really like to find a way to not have Helen be both their lovers. For no other reason than, I don't want Locke hurt. lol

Any suggestions?

I haven't had the impression that he's angry disappointed etc. with Helen, but with this show ya never know.

I'd really like to find a way to not have Helen be both their lovers. For no other reason than, I don't want Locke hurt. lol

Any suggestions?

I haven't had the impression that he's angry disappointed etc. with Helen, but with this show ya never know.WIF, you were the one who suggested this. :biggrin:
I'm afraid that Locke is destined to be hurt. I think this could fit the ultimate betrayal, a reason that Locke doesn't have Helen in his life and Phone Sex Helen comes into play.

If Helen is Kate's mom, when Locke was first knocked out by the boar, and he called Kate, Helen, there was something in her voice or look that he responeded to as "Helen". Was there recognition to the name "Helen" from Kate?

You know who I'd reallly like to fit in someplace, the person that fell/pushed/jumped from the roof when Hurley was visiting his business manager. Could it have been Eddie? Just a BIG leap.

Woah, Sam, this is a big idea! Good thing I'm checking the Juice thread. Shouldn't you give this the exposure it deserves?

Woah, Sam, this is a big idea! Good thing I'm checking the Juice thread. Shouldn't you give this the exposure it deserves?It's really WaltisFuture's theory. I just moved it from another thread to Juice because it fits into the Kate story line. Then things start being added on. Eventually everyone should wind up being connected per TPTB, I figured this thread was as good as any to make the connections on. I'll see if I can adjust the title a little to cover the new info.

Hey guys. I don't need any credit. Spread the word, feel free to take ideas from the theory. I put it together, but it's from months and months of having the coolest threads in general theories to read and get great ideas from.

I've said this before, but it deserves repeating. The reason I love the lage so much is the exchange of ideas and how that grows into something. We all look at it a little different and add to it. It's been fun dealing with such open minded pleasant people.

OT I keep using that little white thing while in a thread to multi answer, and if I decide not to post and go to another thread to post there, the quote from the other thread shows up. I haven't seen anyone mention of this, and it makes taking a post from one thread to another easy peasy lemon squeezy.

OT I keep using that little white thing while in a thread to multi answer, and if I decide not to post and go to another thread to post there, the quote from the other thread shows up. I haven't seen anyone mention of this, and it makes taking a post from one thread to another easy peasy lemon squeezy.You have me here, what little white thing? I certainly could use it, that was something I missed from the old board.

Back to Cooper. Redheads weren't Locke's weakness but Cooper's. Locke just had them thrust in hs way.

Remember Red is one of our primary colors that we discussed.

To the far right of the quote button. You can press it on a post, and it won't do anything, so you keep reading and if you find another post you want to respond to, you press it again......at the end when you press quote, they all show up seperated, and you answer them. Too cool.

I agree the red hair is Cooper's thing. When we see Diane in the hospital, I recall her hair being grey or brown, but it could have been red? Do you remember?

That Cooper likes his women wild, hot tempered? It never works out because he keeps picking the same kind of women?

I'm wondering if all the lostaways will be connected through orange? Iron Mike, Kate, Locke, Hurley, Sun, Jin, Cooper (red hair?), Sawyer (deal in florida?), Jack so far.

If Helen was Kate's mom, they would have been in California=beach.

The scene where Kate is sinking in the sand, she tells Jack that she used to do that with her mom.


Kate's bank robber boyfriend, Justin.....(OJ's sons name)

If Helen was Kate's mom, they would have been in California=beach.

The scene where Kate is sinking in the sand, she tells Jack that she used to do that with her mom.

Kate's bank robber boyfriend, Justin.....(OJ's sons name)Kate said her dad was stationed Ranger Battalion, Ft. Lewis (Washington) not that far from the ocean either. How does this fit Cooper? We think he has travelled around the world because of the art he has. But nothing military seems to be in his house. Rich people don't usually choose the military as a career. But it could give him a connection to Lenny and Sam.

Kate said her dad was stationed Ranger Battalion, Ft. Lewis (Washington) not that far from the ocean either. How does this fit Cooper? We think he has travelled around the world because of the art he has. But nothing military seems to be in his house. Rich people don't usually choose the military as a career. But it could give him a connection to Lenny and Sam. Unless it was never Coopers house and there was just some personal effects (like photos) placed around.

Random thought, but I was just wondering how Helen could be old enough to be Kate's mom. So checking on the actress' ages, which can be used as an estimate for the characters', Helen would have been 25 when Kate was born.

Unless it was never Coopers house and there was just some personal effects (like photos) placed around.
If that were true, it would make Cooper the second biggest liar in the series, next to Kate. Is that another connection? On second thought Cooper's probably the biggest liar with Kate coming in second.

Jennylee, Helen's age always seemed right, she played Christina Applegate's mom in Married with Children and the mom in 8 Simple Rules.

OH, and another connection, remember we discussed the kids on Tom's refrigerator, the older of the two might be Tom & Kate's son, and she had to leave or give him up? Could it be following the same thing that happened to Helen, having to give up her child? History repeating itself.

(I love the $23,000 being $1000 for every year of Kate's life. It was such an odd number for a reward and it had really bugged me. We had discussed 23 being Kate's number, this makes it very personal.)

Kate said her dad was stationed Ranger Battalion, Ft. Lewis (Washington) not that far from the ocean either. How does this fit Cooper? We think he has travelled around the world because of the art he has. But nothing military seems to be in his house. Rich people don't usually choose the military as a career. But it could give him a connection to Lenny and Sam.

Of course Cooper could have made his fortune from his military association if he hooks up with Alvar Hanso (arms dealer), eh?

Of course Cooper could have made his fortune from his military association if he hooks up with Alvar Hanso (arms dealer), eh?Excellent connection. We don't have much to work on considering we don't have much info on either but something may pop up. The more we look the more we see. Even the smallest line can suddenly fall into place.

Jennylee, Helen's age always seemed right, she played Christina Applegate's mom in Married with Children and the mom in 8 Simple Rules.


She just seemed young to me, so I checked. Funny thing is, she's only 17 years older than Applegate! But they never mentioned that on MwC.

If Orange is Kate's color, Red is Locke's.

I've been wondering about Ana-Lucia and have some ideas linked to spoiler's so I will wait.

Something that could help link these people and the juice theory that's been staring us in the face for ages.
What have we got so far?
juice/kate
orange colour/kate
orange in mouth/Locke
Orange futures/Hurley
orange /jin

Another possible link Locke lives in Tustin, ORANGE COUNTY historically named for it's vast amounts of guess what? ORANGES!!!!
He works for a "box" company of some sort could it be orange crates??

I think you guys are really onto something here, Also i'm a first time poster so please go easy lol

Something that could help link these people and the juice theory that's been staring us in the face for ages.
What have we got so far?
juice/kate
orange colour/kate
orange in mouth/Locke
Orange futures/Hurley
orange /jin

Another possible link Locke lives in Tustin, ORANGE COUNTY historically named for it's vast amounts of guess what? ORANGES!!!!
He works for a "box" company of some sort could it be orange crates??

I think you guys are really onto something here, Also i'm a first time poster so please go easy lolDragonfly, that's great. Welcome to the 'Fuse and thanks for posting your first time in "Juice".

I'm almost dreading the episode on Kate. We've been having so much fun here I don't know if I want to know what her crime was yet. There are still so many trails.

LOL

I hear ya Sam G. I'd be sorely disappointed if we couldn't keep these ideas alive. It's almost more fun than watching the show sometimes. NOT but it fills the time between episodes so well.


Awesome catch on Tustin dragonflyo2

I'm fairly new here and have seen many a theory bandied about in my short time here.I must say that this theory definitely has some weight.My own theory about Kate was that she had a Law enforcement/intelligence background but the Nurse/medical theorizing fits too!

Living in Southern California, they have local commercials on all the time. The Jewelry Exchange in Tustin. Lots of commercials but I just couldn't see how that would fit into Lost.
There used to be a military base in Tustin that closed a few years ago. That was the extent of my Tustin search. The military base could still come into play.

Like your's much better Dragonfly.

Gee thanx guy's i'm soo glad i joined the site, some of the theories ive seen are soo far out, but there are quite a few credible theories on this forum.
I haven't read this entire thread so i may well repeat some stuff that's already been posted,
there have been lots of times when juice and euthenasia (sp) has been mentioned it just has to tie in somewhere
Also Samg being as you live in Sth Cali would you know roughly how large a town Tustin is, i just can't seem to picture a "major box company" being in Tustin if it's a small town ( i'm from the UK so please excuse my ignorance with regards to US state)
Thanx again

Gee thanx guy's i'm soo glad i joined the site, some of the theories ive seen are soo far out, but there are quite a few credible theories on this forum.
I haven't read this entire thread so i may well repeat some stuff that's already been posted,
there have been lots of times when juice and euthenasia (sp) has been mentioned it just has to tie in somewhere
Also Samg being as you live in Sth Cali would you know roughly how large a town Tustin is, i just can't seem to picture a "major box company" being in Tustin if it's a small town ( i'm from the UK so please excuse my ignorance with regards to US state)
Thanx again
I think Tustin is pretty big. It did have a military base there, which could connect to Kate's Ft. Lewis in Washington. It's in the whole mass of cities that surround Los Angeles.

http://www.tustinca.org/
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=&csz=Tustin%2C+CA&state=CA&uzip=92780&ds=n&name=&desc=&lat=33.745647&lon=-117.825813&mlt=33.745647&mln=-117.825813&zoomin=yes&BFKey=&resize=l&trf=0&mag=5

I think Tustin is pretty big. It did have a military base there, which could connect to Kate's Ft. Lewis in Washington. It's in the whole mass of cities that surround Los Angeles.

http://www.tustinca.org/
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=&csz=Tustin%2C+CA&state=CA&uzip=92780&ds=n&name=&desc=&lat=33.745647&lon=-117.825813&mlt=33.745647&mln=-117.825813&zoomin=yes&BFKey=&resize=l&trf=0&mag=5

I never looked at a map for Tustin before. Notice Orange county and Ontario?

I never looked at a map for Tustin before. Notice Orange county and Ontario?Hurley was the one who assumed Canada, eh.

I've been thinking about what WIF's theory that Helen is Kate's mother might mean with regard to the Locke, Baseball, and Kate thread. (Just trying to make sense of all the theories here because they seem to have a lot of common points. Sam G linked it earlier in the thread I believe.) If Kate is Helen's daughter, a lot of things fall into place. He may well have seen pictures and newspaper clippings of Kate as a baseball player at Helen's place, that is if the baseball items belonged to Kate.:) It would explain why Locke knew who Kate was, kept dropping hints, but Kate didn't know him. The orange smile might have been meaningful to her for any number of reasons. There may be a photo at Helen's of Kate or a teammate making the same face at a baseball game. It would also mean that it's possible Locke already knows what Kate did, which is a pet theory of mine. I really like it WIF.

I like tying in the baseball. If Locke is Kate's 1/2 brother well, we're really good at making things bizarre.
Would Helen have shown pictures to Locke or would he have just seen them and put 2 + 2 together?

The pictures on Tom's refrigerator are left open for interpretation for us.

I like tying in the baseball. If Locke is Kate's 1/2 brother well, we're really good at making things bizarre.
Would Helen have shown pictures to Locke or would he have just seen them and put 2 + 2 together?

The pictures on Tom's refrigerator are left open for interpretation for us.

I think he would probably have just seen them, though I can easily see Helen elaborating on them.

I really like the idea of Helen being Kate's real mom, but not by Cooper. Maybe her father kidnapped her? Just a wild idea that popped into my head. Reason? Perhaps he was abusive (we have some evidence of this) and she threatened to leave and take Kate with her and he beat her to the punch?

I think he would probably have just seen them, though I can easily see Helen elaborating on them.I haven't looked around Helen's for any pictures or anything.

Since NP mentioned that Red was also associated with Anger, Michael has always been Green to me and that represents Envy. That kind of fits with how he looked at Locke and Walt's relationship and Sun & Jin's, maybe even Brian & Susan's.

We have people that are represented by colors and people that are represented by numbers. Some of them both.

I sometimes associate Sawyer with blue but lately it's black, by what he is wearing.

Being the addict that I am, I cheated and looked at spoiler pics, I don't think we need to worry about Cooper being Kate's dad anymoreSo that yuck factor is gone.

Crap, I spoiled myself too and saw that. What I don't get is why everyone is convinced it's her dad. Couldn't it be an uncle or family friend?


Lookie what I found.

http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=775&pos=476

OJ on Shannons table!! The cereal is called Alpha Crunch.

Couldnt find Alpha Crunch cereal
number crunching - performing complex and lengthy numerical calculations
calculation, computation, computing - the procedure of calculating; determining something by mathematical or logical methods
Could it mean more letter crunching, anagrams or what ever

Absolutely coupons. Check this one out.

Orange juice box. Is she spelling something out with the Alpha Crunch?

http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=775&pos=461
http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=775&pos=462

Being the addict that I am, I cheated and looked at spoiler pics, I don't think we need to worry about Cooper being Kate's dad anymoreSo that yuck factor is gone.

Well, the yuck factor may not yet be gone, as he could still be her birth father, just not the man who raised her (i.e., adoption, step-father).

Absolutely coupons. Check this one out.

Orange juice box. Is she spelling something out with the Alpha Crunch?

http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=775&pos=461
http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=775&pos=462
wtg, coupons and WIF. I think that's possible. It looks like she was getting another spoonful or toying with the spoon in the bowl, but actually I didn't see the spoon in her hand at all. It looks like there are "crunches" on the table but I couldn't tell which letters, and the way she was holding her hand, she might have been holding another crunch or more.

A strange idea hit me today. Maybe Kate "lost" a child. It could have been her child or not. She could have just been babysitting. Maybe she drank some orange juice that was tainted with something that metabolized quickly and left no trace in blood tests, but nobody believes her. The glass could have disappeared before she awakened. Maybe she doesn't even know, only suspects. She drank some orange juice and went to sleep. Someone snatched the child. With all of the children in lost being snatched, it seems to make sense. She could be running because she's trying to find the person who took the child. Like Sawyer, she became the thing she hated. She became the person who uses juice to subdue her victim. It would look like she's guilty of neglect, so she ran, trying to find the child and vindicate herself.

A strange idea hit me today. Maybe Kate "lost" a child. It could have been her child or not. She could have just been babysitting. Maybe she drank some orange juice that was tainted with something that metabolized quickly and left no trace in blood tests, but nobody believes her. The glass could have disappeared before she awakened. Maybe she doesn't even know, only suspects. She drank some orange juice and went to sleep. Someone snatched the child. With all of the children in lost being snatched, it seems to make sense. She could be running because she's trying to find the person who took the child. Like Sawyer, she became the thing she hated. She became the person who uses juice to subdue her victim. It would look like she's guilty of neglect, so she ran, trying to find the child and vindicate herself.Another possibility. I just looked up what effects "Agent Orange" has on humans. Kate's dad could have served in Viet Nam. They stopped using it in 1971. Which falls into the age range her dad could fall in. Been exposed to agent orange, which causes soft tissue cancers.

"As soldiers who had served in Vietnam attempted to settle back into civilian life following their tours, some of them began to develop unusual health problems. There were skin and liver diseases and what seemed to be an abnormal number of cancers to soft tissue organs such as the lungs and stomach. There also seemed to be an unusually high number of birth defects among children born to Vietnam veterans who had been exposed to Agent Orange. Some veterans experienced wild mood swings, while others developed a painful skin rash known as chloracne. Many of these veterans were found to have high levels of dioxin in their blood, but scientists and the U.S. government insisted there was no link between their illnesses and Agent Orange."

Just a military reference to Orange. Not sure I'd use it in the theory, yet. But wanted to keep this in mind.

Preview picture from "What Kate Did" http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=816&pos=11 Diane has a wrist brace on? And it looks like there is an Insu rance policy in her other hand?
http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=816&pos=1 This is Sayid in Kate's episode, is he going to fit on somewhere with her father? Those guys have really new camoflage on :biggrin: Can't spoiler the links so you've been warned.

SamG, this is fascinating reading! I always thought the only reason that the Marshal asked her if she wanted to drink her juice was a ploy so that we could see that she was the one wearing handcuffs. I've only made it about a quarter way through this thread, but I will be back to finish it and then keep up with it for sure!

Preview picture from "What Kate Did" http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=816&pos=11 Diane has a wrist brace on? And it looks like there is an Insu rance policy in her other hand?
http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=816&pos=1 This is Sayid in Kate's episode, is he going to fit on somewhere with her father? Those guys have really new camoflage on :biggrin: Can't spoiler the links so you've been warned.


Looks like Diane? Or whatever Kates mom's name was.

Do you see that too?

Looks like Diane? Or whatever Kates mom's name was.

Do you see that too?WIF that's what's in the SPOILER font
:biggrin:

Doh I didn't highlight it, I just looked at the caps.

http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=816&pos=3

Quote Alrany187: (can't spoiler font a quote.)
Those are on the right sleeve and therefore are not hashmarks, which are worn on the left sleeve and indicate 3 years of service. These are on the right sleeve and are overseas service bars. They indicate 6 months in a hostile fire area.

The rank is as c 57 said, a Sergeant Major. However it is not a Command Sergeant Major, which would have a wreath surrounding the star. Both Command Sergeant Major and Sergeant Major are E-9 grades, as is Sergeant Major of the Army. Command Sergeant Majors are usually with combat units, while Sergeant Major would usually be found in combat support units, such as communication or intelligence areas.

The star on the right sleeve indicates the 6th Army, NOT the 6th Infantry Division. The Sixth Army was deactivated in 1994.

If he was in intelligence or communications that's probably where Sayid comes in.That being said. It's all spoilerish so be warned.

Sam,

Here is some more information that might be of benefit to you.

1. In Solitary, Sayid told Danielle that "I've been holding on for the past 7 years to just a thought, a blind hope that somewhere she's still alive." This would negate the possibility that the Sayid-Nadia flashback occurred during the current Irag War. More than likely during Desert Storm or shortly afterward.

2. Sixth Army did have subordinate support units serving in the Middle East during Desert Storm.

3. U.S. Army regulations state that subordinate units that are not authorized to wear their unit shoulder patch on the right shoulder (aka: combat patch) will wear the patch of their higher command. In this case, hypothetically, the Sixth Army.

This could be the link between Sayid and Kate through Kate's father. A little more information from Alrany

Sam G.,

One final thought on the uniform. Kate said her father was in the Ranger Battalion. If that were the case and the man in the picture is her father, he is missing his ranger tab. That insignia would be worn above the recruiter's patch on the left sleeve shoulder.
One final piece for Alrany

Looking at screen cps in Walk About GK-12 is drinking Orange soda

Ana and Raggs were cruising around in Westwood. Was it Westhills that we connected to baseball?? Which comes back around to this theory?

Ana and Raggs were cruising around in Westwood. Was it Westhills that we connected to baseball?? Which comes back around to this theory?Westwood is over by UCLA.

But Kate did exhibit her knack with giving medicine to a sick person she cares about.

That's what I thought when she was helping Sawyer take the pill. She's done that before.

When she said he was home, I not only thought of Sawyer saying it on the raft, but that it sounded like something she'd said before to comfort someone.