I know this surely must have been mentioned elsewhere, but I couldn't find it when I did a search.* Many apologies if this turns out to be a re-cap of someone else's post, it's totally unintentional!*

When I re-watched Tabula Rasa tonight, it was the first time for me since its original airing.* (I know, what kind of "Lost" fan am I that I haven't seen it five times already by now?* *:lol2:)* Anyway, knowing the back story now, I was surprised by how stricken Sawyer looked when he found out that the chest shot wasn't fatal for the Marshal like he had intended it to be.* I couldn't figure it out, but It only just occured to me that the reason he looked so upset is because his intent in killing the Marshall really was to atone for his "accidental" killing of Frank Duckett.* (Put him out of his misery, he wanted to die, unlike poor Frank.)* So of course, it doesn't go well for Sawyer this time around either, and he continues to be guilt-ridden.* No redemption for him yet!

When I first watched this, I was not at all sympathetic to Sawyer by this point, since he'd acted so obnoxious for the most part (i.e., the looting, the fighting, the name-calling and slurs).* I don't even remember noticing his reaction then, it certainly didn't have the same impact on me as it has this time, esp. since we have the added knowledge of his backstory now.* (And of course, the character has grown on me, so maybe I'm looking for things to support my sympathy.* *;))* And he just looked so grateful when Sayid tossed him the apple at the end, like at least he got a little bit of forgiveness from somebody.* Kind of like he's looking for some scrap of kindness, from anybody.

Thoughts?

When I re-watched Tabula Rasa tonight, it was the first time for me since its original airing. (I know, what kind of "Lost" fan am I that I haven't seen it five times already by now? ) ~ LisiBee
Not your fault, when ABC hasn't re-aired it up until now! (yes, I am a little bitter about this ;) )

Anyway, knowing the back story now, I was surprised by how stricken Sawyer looked when he found out that the chest shot wasn't fatal for the Marshal like he had intended it to be. I couldn't figure it out, but It only just occured to me that the reason he looked so upset is because his intent in killing the Marshall really was to atone for his "accidental" killing of Frank Duckett. (Put him out of his misery, he wanted to die, unlike poor Frank.) So of course, it doesn't go well for Sawyer this time around either, and he continues to be guilt-ridden. No redemption for him yet!
~LisiBee

I have to admit, I wasn't surprised at how hurt Sawyer looked. He has allowed himself to be seen as the "prisoner" .. as he said in Pilot 2.. I will play the role of the prisoner... He is comfortable being seen as the bad-boy, outcast, criminal, bad influence... It lets him live on the edge of society, the clique and keeps people from expecting anything from him.

However, he is not a bad person at heart .. from what I have seen, I think the only person he has ever wanted to kill, was the real Sawyer, as revenge for what the man did to his family and his childhood. He has lived as a con-man, but as we saw in Confidence Man, he became a con-man out of necessity, it was not the man that he had wanted to be.

Sawyer has stepped up to help and protect the other survivors more than once .. looking after Kate in the Jungle, trying to protect Walt in Exodus 2, helping Michael by giving him pepto bismol in Ex1, reading to turniphead, helping to shoot Ethan ... IMHO he was trying to do the right thing by the marshall, more so than he was trying to make amends for Frank's death. Sawyer was trying to help end the marshall's needless suffering (which Jack was incapable of doing, until Sawyer forced his hand). IMHO, his conversation with Kate about using the gun to kill the marshall was honest .. he wanted to help the marshall.

i agree with all this

yes the look of horror on Sawyer's face was priceless
seemed the same face he made at the moment he realized that hibbs set him up and he shot the wrong man!!

Sawyer was trying to help end the marshall's needless suffering (which Jack was incapable of doing, until Sawyer forced his hand). I totally agree. He even let Jack off the hook b/c he understood that Jack's position as a doctor is to heal, and it would be much more difficult for him(Jack) to pull the trigger (ethically).

Also (and this didn't quite register the first time) I think Sawyer was being chivalrous towards Kate by doing the deed, after taunting her earlier that it was her responsibility because she'd taken the gun. Even that might have been his way of saying, "I'll take care of that for you, just ask me."

The look on Sawyer's face was very revealing in hindsight, I agree. It's like he was saying, "I miss the guy I was trying to kill out of mercy, and I'm dead on when shooting the wrong man."

Is Sawyer a bad person at heart? I would have said so once, but I'm softening. I think he wants to be good, wants to be looked up to, wants to be the hero he always busts Jack's chops for being. He's done some pretty crappy things in his life. While the Aussie detective was reading his rap sheet in the finale, I have to admit my heart was hardening as I thought, "My Gosh, the lives he must have ruined..."

His tragic story is something of a mitigating circumstance. To what extent did he have choices in his life, and made the wrong ones? Was he fated to become a hard-*** criminal, or did he choose that path? Has he been cruel or just weak? If he had lived a comfortable upper-class life, and Jack had lost his parents violently, would the two men be in each other's shoes now? I hope they get into these questions as we get more of Sawyer's backstory, assuming of course that he hasn't set up permanent camp in Davy Jones's locker.....

RamessesIX - in response to your comments about him attempting to be chivalrous towards Kate by offering to shoot the Marshall so she wouldn't have to...I noticed that to.

And I always found it very interesting that we don't get to see the exchange between Sawyer and Kate, where she presumably gives him the gun and asks him to (or implies that he should) shoot the Marshall. That's no small request really. And I know that he mucked it up in the end...but I always thought that she should have at least acknowledged that he tried to take the burden off her shoulders in that situation. There couldn't have been anything in it for him unless he got off on shooting people (and it's painfully obvious from his reaction that he doesn't), so either he was trying to help Kate...or he wanted to do the right thing. I think it was a little bit of both...but either way, and regardless of the outcome...agreeing to do it in the first place was pretty impressive.

There couldn't have been anything in it for him unless he got off on shooting people
trying to rid himself of some guilt over duckett maybe?

Wow, good thoughts everybody!* I am obviously not the only one who's spent some time thinking about this.* *:lol2:

abramsfan, I would agree with you that Sawyer is not bad at heart; you gave some good examples of him jumping in to help others, no questions asked (I would also add to that list when he gave Kate the alcohol to help with Aaron's birth).* It would seem he is capable of altruism.* But I would say that while it may be something he aspires to, he just simply doesn't know how to get there.* He is indeed more comfortable being the bad boy and, as he told Michael, "I ain't no hero."* But that is the conflict for him:* he wants to be.*

RamessesIX also brings up a good point about mitigating circumstances.* James Ford's life went off on a sharp tanget when the original Mr. Sawyer entered it.* Without getting into a whole nature vs. nurture thing, who knows where he would have been if his parents hadn't died violent deaths, leading him to let a vendatta rule the rest of his life thus far.



trying to rid himself of some guilt over duckett maybe?

LOL, which brings us back to my original point:* atonement.* And you know, I believe even more so in this concept for Sawyer, given Frank Duckett's dying words to him "It'll all come back around."* I think he took it to heart, especially after realizing that he let his need for revenge lead him to killing the wrong man.* (Not to mention maybe wondering how many of his victims might be looking for him, possibly with gun in hand.)* I think that given the time frame of Tabula Rasa, occurring let's say roughly a week (by my unscientific estimation) after killing Frank, Sawyer is still feeling regret, and maybe some horror at himself at what he has become capable of.* Now don't get*me wrong, he is still capable of some pretty bad behavior, but I think he truly wants things to be different.

I tell ya, it's a whole different experience watching these episodes knowing what we know now!

Maybe Sayid was offering an atonement of sorts with the apple. I wonder now as we listen to jack/Sayid exchange on the beach with the marshall screaming on the beach in the background if when Sayid says (paraphrasing) "Is there anything I can do?" If Sayid wasn't meaning to do just what Sawyer did and this is why Sayid gave atonement to Sawyer and offered an apple ( instead of an olive branch ).

Remember how the Marshals screams were effecting everyone--remember what Sayid said about the LOSTAWAYS losing hope...if he thought it was for the greater good would Sayid have done it?

Maybe Sayid was offering an atonement of sorts with the apple.* I wonder now as we listen to jack/Sayid exchange on the beach with the marshall screaming on the beach in the background if when Sayid says (paraphrasing) "Is there anything I can do?"* If Sayid wasn't meaning to do just what Sawyer did and this is why Sayid* gave atonement to Sawyer and offered an apple ( instead of an olive branch ).

Remember how the Marshals screams were effecting everyone--remember what Sayid said about the LOSTAWAYS losing* hope...if he thought it was for the greater good would Sayid have done it?


I would have to agree with this, I do think Sayid was extending some implied forgiveness.* Although it hadn't occurred to me that maybe Sawyer beat Sayid to it, I have to say that it makes sense.* As a former soldier, he would understand about morale and doing what's necessary.* (And he would have the firearm know-how to do the job right.)* I think it was also an acknowledgement by Sayid of the rightness of what Sawyer ultimately did, kind of a "good job, even though you messed it up."* *;)* And, to extend the forgiveness thing, maybe Sayid was also calling a truce from their earlier fight on the beach from the Pilot.

I think that was a great scene at the end.
Sawyer's face registered so many emotions - shame and gratitude chiefly.
Shame for having acted the way he had to Sayid and gratitude for his forgiveness.

It's almost like he just doesn't know better and his first reactions to people are aggressive, but I guess that is his comfort zone. Once he gets to know people, he is ashamed of his previous actions towards them.

I do think that Sawyer (to continue using his own dog metaphor) is a case of a dog with a bigger bark than bite.

It's almost like he just doesn't know better and his first reactions to people are aggressive, but I guess that is his comfort zone.* Once he gets to know people, he is ashamed of his previous actions towards them.

It's probably a pre-emptive strike sort of thing:* get them before they can get you. I don't get the sense that he's had much experience with the "catch more flies with honey" school of thought.*

I know this surely must have been mentioned elsewhere, but I couldn't find it when I did a search.* Many apologies if this turns out to be a re-cap of someone else's post, it's totally unintentional!*

When I re-watched Tabula Rasa tonight, it was the first time for me since its original airing.* (I know, what kind of "Lost" fan am I that I haven't seen it five times already by now?* *:lol2:)* Anyway, knowing the back story now, I was surprised by how stricken Sawyer looked when he found out that the chest shot wasn't fatal for the Marshal like he had intended it to be.* I couldn't figure it out, but It only just occured to me that the reason he looked so upset is because his intent in killing the Marshall really was to atone for his "accidental" killing of Frank Duckett.* (Put him out of his misery, he wanted to die, unlike poor Frank.)* So of course, it doesn't go well for Sawyer this time around either, and he continues to be guilt-ridden.* No redemption for him yet!

When I first watched this, I was not at all sympathetic to Sawyer by this point, since he'd acted so obnoxious for the most part (i.e., the looting, the fighting, the name-calling and slurs).* I don't even remember noticing his reaction then, it certainly didn't have the same impact on me as it has this time, esp. since we have the added knowledge of his backstory now.* (And of course, the character has grown on me, so maybe I'm looking for things to support my sympathy.* *;))* And he just looked so grateful when Sayid tossed him the apple at the end, like at least he got a little bit of forgiveness from somebody.* Kind of like he's looking for some scrap of kindness, from anybody.

Thoughts?



Actually I think Sawyer was more surprised/upset that killing again didn't kill his pain. I think he thought it would be easier the second time around. And then to only further the guys agony added insult to injury (so to speak) I noticed it this time around as well, how stricken he was, it was so sad, and yet so endearing. Josh is actually a really good actor, not just a pretty face!
I haven't seen any of the episodes more than twice, I don't have Tivo and I never seem to remember to tape them either, but I'm still a great fan of this show. It's awesome no matter how many times you watch :)

And I always found it very interesting that we don't get to see the exchange between Sawyer and Kate, where she presumably gives him the gun and asks him to (or implies that he should) shoot the Marshall. ~QE
It would be cool if they were saving it for a flashback in an upcoming season...wishful thinking, I suppose.* * *

I tell ya, it's a whole different experience watching these episodes knowing what we know now! ~LisiBee
So true .. I am finding them even more interesting now, than the first time. Who would have thought? ;)

He is indeed more comfortable being the bad boy and, as he told Michael, "I ain't no hero."* But that is the conflict for him:* he wants to be.* ~LisiBee
I disagree that he "wants" to be a "hero" .. I don't think he wants the responsibility of having others depend on him.* IMHO he wants to the other Lostaways to stop looking at him with suspicion everytime something goes wrong.* And in trying to right his image, I think he tends to make the grand gestures, partially acting out of instinct and in the moment and partially because the big gestures get noticed more and have a bigger payoff than small gestures that maybe one person will notce, and therefore, he has started down a path towards becoming a reluctant hero of sorts.

If Sayid wasn't meaning to do just what Sawyer did and this is why Sayid* gave atonement to Sawyer and offered an apple ( instead of an olive branch ).
~Freen Eyed Colleen
Awesome catch!* :D* And I think LisiBee is also correct, that Sayid's gesture was an extension of forgiveness

I think he thought it would be easier the second time around. ~ AIRHOSTESS
Sorry, AIRHOSTESS, but I have to disagree.* I think he was stepping up to help the marshall and to a lesser degree to right the wrong he had done by killing the wrong man .. I don't think Sawyer would ever look at killing as easy .. accept maybe when trying to save Walt in Ex2, maybe then

I disagree that he "wants" to be a "hero" .. I don't think he wants the responsibility of having others depend on him.* IMHO he wants to the other Lostaways and to have them stop looking at him with suspicion everytime something goes wrong.* And in trying to right his image, I think he tends to make the grand gestures, partially acting out of instinct and in the moment and partially because the big gestures get noticed more and have a bigger payoff than small gestures that maybe one person will notce, and therefore, he has started down a path towards becoming a reluctant hero of sorts.

"Reluctant hero," I like that.* Well put!* Or maybe he just wants the perks of being a hero without the responsibility (hero lite)?* I also think you're right about him making the grand gestures partly because of the bigger payout, but they also are more likely to backfire spectacularly (like with the marshal).* Or like with the polar bear--no one thanks him for killing it and saving them all from being eaten, they all just want to know where he got the gun.* Focus, people!* He just shot a bear!* *:lol2:

Sawyer... what a looser.... He missed!

HAHAHAHA

I just watched this one again last night.

I think that James(Sawyer) doesn't even know WHY he took it upon himself to
shoot the marshall. He does things because he's trying to be proactive...but
then he has huge regrets afterward.

This is the opposite of the way John approaches things, btw. John watches,
and analyzes a situation, most likely going through the various possible outcomes
in his mind, before acting.

I think the look of horror on Sawyer's face when the Marshall began to moan
in pain was brilliant! He felt sheer horror that he had increased the man's
suffering. He was FINALLY trying to do something right, and he only compounded
the situation. he let Kate down, and he really wanted to do this for her.

Sorry I'm waaay behind. I never watch prime time so I've been waiting to rent the series. So I just started watching this weekend.
But I must say that I'm surprised that no one caught on that Jack killed the Marshal!
After Sawyer shot the Marshal in the chest Jack reprimands him. But Sawyer tells Jack off about him being the only one willing to do what needed to be done. Jack goes back in the tent to take a look at his wound - you hear the Marshal moaning in the back ground. Then you hear this muffled moaning sound (when Jack is suffocating him) and then all noise stops and Jack comes back out looking flustered. Jack had just said that it would take longer for him to die and he would be suffering longer thanks to Sawyer. So there's no way he would have died in 2 minutes. Jack went in there and "did what needed to be done".

I think perhaps the reason Sawyer missed the marshall was because of the experience with Frank. That experience really hurt him. He realized that Hibbs had used the anger and hatred within Sawyer to harm an innocent person. So imagine how horrific it would be for Sawyer to be standing behind a gun, again, in just a few short days. My aim would have been shaky too.

Ironically, Frank basically forgave Sawyer. He looked at him with sympathy (like he knew Sawyer was a lost little boy -- no pun intended) and said something along the lines of "you have no idea what you are doing".

The problem is that Sawyer can't forgive himself. Not just for Frank, not just for the marshall ... but for becoming "Sawyer" in the first place. For allowing desperation to turn him into someone he views to be a monster (perhaps another LOST theme).

I am not sure if Sawyer wants to be a hero or not ... but I think he has a lot of regret/turmoil from feeling helpless the night his parents died. He seems to do nothing to help himself (actually seems to do things to intentionally torture himself) but he seems to be willing to jump in and help others (perhaps to protect them from the type of life he has known).

Sorry I'm waaay behind. I never watch prime time so I've been waiting to rent the series. So I just started watching this weekend.
But I must say that I'm surprised that no one caught on that Jack killed the Marshal!
After Sawyer shot the Marshal in the chest Jack reprimands him. But Sawyer tells Jack off about him being the only one willing to do what needed to be done. Jack goes back in the tent to take a look at his wound - you hear the Marshal moaning in the back ground. Then you hear this muffled moaning sound (when Jack is suffocating him) and then all noise stops and Jack comes back out looking flustered. Jack had just said that it would take longer for him to die and he would be suffering longer thanks to Sawyer. So there's no way he would have died in 2 minutes. Jack went in there and "did what needed to be done".
Jack euthanizing the marshall has been extensively discussed elsewhere, but this brings up an interesting contrast later with Boone, doesn't it?

RamessesIX also brings up a good point about mitigating circumstances.* James Ford's life went off on a sharp tanget when the original Mr. Sawyer entered it.* Without getting into a whole nature vs. nurture thing, who knows where he would have been if his parents hadn't died violent deaths, leading him to let a vendatta rule the rest of his life thus far.

The title of the show begs the question of nature vs. nurture, and I think the entire series is making the case for nurture. That's why there can be redemption, becuase there's always choices. If people are born evil there's no chance for change and choices don't matter.

When I re-watched Tabula Rasa tonight, it was the first time for me since its original airing.* (I know, what kind of "Lost" fan am I that I haven't seen it five times already by now?*

I ordered the dvd and I'm waiting for it to arrive. I can't wait to watch season one again - I think I will get so much more out of it with the knowledge I have gained by watching all the future episodes. I love to watch favorite movies several times and reread favorite books. Each time is like an onion, peeling back more layers of understanding. While this year I have videotaped the episodes, my vcr was broken last year and I didn't get another one until the season was more than half over. I don't know why I did't tape the shows that aired after I got my new one, but I didn't. :mad: I have really missed being able to go back and rewatch somethings. I am glad there are people who post such detailed episode discriptions so that I can revisit the episodes on the forums if not on TV. Once the DVD arrives, I will be glued to it, lol. And I expect to learn alot rewatching the earlier shows. :smile:

When I first watched this, I was not at all sympathetic to Sawyer by this point, since he'd acted so obnoxious for the most part (i.e., the looting, the fighting, the name-calling and slurs).* I don't even remember noticing his reaction then, it certainly didn't have the same impact on me as it has this time, esp. since we have the added knowledge of his backstory now.* (And of course, the character has grown on me, so maybe I'm looking for things to support my sympathy.* *;))* And he just looked so grateful when Sayid tossed him the apple at the end, like at least he got a little bit of forgiveness from somebody.* Kind of like he's looking for some scrap of kindness, from anybody.

Thoughts?

This is what made me begin liking him because I saw the remorse he had and it made me realise he is human and has feelings and he is now my most favourite character ever to make it on TV.

:sawyer:

I agree. Joe Purdy's music was perfect, especially for the last scene with Locke. But I think I started to like Sawyer when he made it known that he was going on the trek.

Kate, " So you decided to join us?"

Sawyer, "I'm a complex guy sweetheart."

Poor sawyer! I feel bad for him...if that happened to me i would be like him. That is just SO sad. His mommy cheated on his daddy, then they went poor. So his daddy shot his mommy and then killed himself. So yeah, i feel bad for him, then he was under the bed when he was 8. I feel bad for him!!!!!!!!
One of my friends don't feel bad for sawyer, but i do. I do. I do!

i think that is true, at first i thought he was just that way and all. Then after the ep with him has a little kid, i was in tears!!!!!!!!!!!! Now i feel bad for him.

Those are my thoughts and i will forever think that! so so long and farewell, i have to go to my next class, goodbye!

Another interesting exchange in this episode was between Sawyer and Jack about the marshall. Sawyer basically asked Jack when he was going to stop trying to save the marshall, and how much of the limited supply of antibiotics he was going to use on him. I think he was implying that they might need the medicine later for someone who wasn't a lost cause. And a season later, in "What Kate did," Sawyer appears to have been saved by the antibiotics.