Just came to me while watching tonight. What if this where Boone was really supposed to die. He would of drowned if Jack hadn't saved him. Kind of looks like the island wanted him dead already.

You read my mind .. I watched and thought .. maybe Boone was living on borrowed time. IMO, Jack wouldn't have been able to save Joanna even if he had swam past Boone, so IMO I don't think saving Boone effected Joanna's outcome.

In addition, could Jack saving Boone have actually saved Jack? If Jack had kept swimming would he have been a casualty too?

I was thinking that about Jack too. Grr! Why couldn't he have saved Joanna! *sorry, part of me still wants Jack to die. Get's on my nerves so much. You'd think after all the crazy stuff that he's seen, he would be a little bit more easy on the others.*

That's a good theory. The island wants him dead. I know I want his sister dead.

Thinking about Joanna.. Perhaps she didn't really drown. Could she have been the woman with the Others on the boat?

Thinking about Joanna.. Perhaps she didn't really drown. Could she have been the woman with the Others on the boat?

I always figured the woman was Alex .. but that is an interesting theory, especially if she lost her memory like Claire did when she was captured by the others. Especially since I don't remember ever having seen Joanna, except the passport photo that Kate was destroying/faking.

Islands don't want.

Interesting that Jack has to decide twice in this season whether to save Boone's life or let him die. Interesting that it's Boone both times, that it's Jack both times and that first he saves him and the second time he doesn't.

Islands don't want.


50 people don't survive 10,000 feet drops from the sky, and islands don't have large "monsters" on them either, yet here we are. Welcome to the world of television.

50 people don't survive 10,000 feet drops from the sky, and islands don't have large "monsters" on them either, yet here we are.* Welcome to the world of television.


"There's no such thing as monsters." - Danielle Rousseau

"There's no such thing as monsters." - Danielle Rousseau


Hence the word "monsters" being in quotation marks...

at first i thought creme was being an ***, but not anymore.

Creme is my hero.

very concise arguements, that one.

Thank you.

Nine months of arguing the same points, I've honed it down to the basics ;)

Ya, I like the concise point myself.

Like, "No one is punishing us. There is no such thing as fate." - Claire

Things occur for a reason, with the primary one being happenstance. And that one can really divert you off course if served with a side of 'in the wrong place, at the wrong time.' But, as luck would have it, determination is an excellent antithesis of happenstance. ;)

Hence the word "monsters" being in quotation marks...

Uhhh, then why didn't you put "drops from the sky" in quotation marks, too? Nobody dropped from the sky; everyone was placed on the island.

Uhhh, then why didn't you put "drops from the sky" in quotation marks, too?* Nobody dropped from the sky; everyone was placed on the island.


No... see, they were in a plane that fell from the sky. Dropped.

I was thinking that about Jack too.* Grr!* Why couldn't he have saved Joanna!* *sorry, part of me still wants Jack to die.* Get's on my nerves so much. You'd think after all the crazy stuff that he's seen, he would be a little bit more easy on the others.*


yikes that's kinda harsh....He was the only person aside from Boone who even bothered to jump into the water. Not only that but he didn't stop at Boone, he went back out for her. The alternative would have been to let Boone die who clearly kept going under..... I'm not sure how what Jack has seen has to do with him getting upset Boone yelled at him for not saving Joanna. I can empathize w/both men's frustration over the outcome of the situation, but accusing Jack of trying to be noble isn't very grateful to say to someone who just saved your life. Jack didn't hold any grudges, stopped ppl from crucifying Boone, & would later give his own blood to make him well... We have to keep in mind @ WR he had not slept since the crash* "when was the last time you slept." "you look tired brother". Really sleep deprived is when we see him get his most upset, otherwise I consider him pretty even keel. He had gone non stop from triaging the crash, to*a monster filled hike, a major operation on the Marshal, working around the camp, to swimming out against a riptide 2x. When you're always doing for everyone else I think it gets expected of you. You're taken for granted & ppl become critical of you. Obviously no one can be Superman. Many owe Jack but he asks nothing in return. Not even a simple thank you to which he hasn't gotten many. I think folks should try to be easier on him & have some sympathy for what he's been through as well.

He's far from saved imo...he will forever be tortured by those he couldn't give a chance to live. He's a good person & because of it will never feel like he can do enough.

No... see, they were in a plane that fell from the sky. Dropped.

No, see, they were placed on the island. They didn't crash on the island.

Reading posts on this board lately is getting very annoying with these guys trying to compete to see who is the best debater. It has nothing to do with discussing the show. Ugh. >:( Anyway, why is everyone so hard on Jack. He is the only one who tries to take care of everyone, jumps in to save everyone, protects everyone and expects nothing in return. I think the guys on this board are just jealous of a man like that because he is the epitomy of heroism. ;)

Reading posts on this board lately is getting very annoying with these guys trying to compete to see who is the best debater.* It has nothing to do with discussing the show.* Ugh. >:(* Anyway, why is everyone so hard on Jack.* He is the only one who tries to take care of everyone, jumps in to save everyone, protects everyone and expects nothing in return.* I think the guys on this board are just jealous of a man like that because he is the epitomy of heroism. ;)


Annoying for you, fun for others.

I wasn't competing with anyone, simply pointing out a flawed premise in a theory (which therefore invalidates the theory).

I'll beg to differ that it has nothing to do with discussing the show. I've seen a lot of misinformation propagate on these boards due to rumors arising from flawed theories based on unsound premises.

As a Lost purist, it's very important to me point out said fallacies.

Huh!! :dizzy:

While I'm waiting for someone to call me an *** again, I'll agree with banshee. I'm not a huge Jack fan, but I've come to like and understand his character a lot more over the course of the season. Each time I review an episode, I learn something new.

I also hope someone will point me to the recently arisen debate competition. I seem to have missed my invitation. ;D

No, see, they were placed on the island.* They didn't crash on the island.


If that's what you believe then more power to ya.* I don't know how some people were imbedded with pieces of the airplane by being Placed there, but that's your issue, not mine...

While I'm waiting for someone to call me an *** again, I'll agree with banshee. I'm not a huge Jack fan, but I've come to like and understand his character a lot more over the course of the season. Each time I review an episode, I learn something new.

I also hope someone will point me to the recently arisen debate competition. I seem to have missed my invitation.* ;D


creme I certainly appreciate you admitting you're looking at his character with an open mind* :) All I can do is hope to provide an alternative perspective that may make someone consider things differently. And you're agreeing w/me which is a nice surprise :laugh: I give you a flower for gratitude :flower:

Actually, I usually agree with you about most things Jack and Kate. I just don't like the characters. They are just not my kinda folks, I guess. I'm more of a Sun or Sawyer type.

If that's what you believe then more power to ya.* I don't know how some people were imbedded with pieces of the airplane by being Placed there, but that's your issue, not mine...

Do you have a plausible explanation for why not one lostaway was belted into his/her seat?* How Jack woke up in the jungle?* How all but two "landed" on the beach without serious injuries?

If you would watch a show about 40+ people whose plane broke apart into non-aerodynamic pieces and plummeted thousands of feet, impacting an island and surviving without injury, then I believe you would watch anything.* If the lostaways were not placed on the beach, then the show is not worth watching, is it?

What is more likely: that a couple people were purposefully embedded with debris or that 40+ people fell from the sky and landed safely on a beach?

Were the dead people underwater buckled in their seats? If so, then why have them buckled up and not the ones on the beach? ???

Were the dead people underwater buckled in their seats? If so, then why have them buckled up and not the ones on the beach? ???

I can think of many plausible explanations for that, but not one plausible explanation for the "they fell thousands of feet to safety" theory.

Do you have a plausible explanation for why not one lostaway was belted into his/her seat?* How Jack woke up in the jungle?* How all but two "landed" on the beach without serious injuries?

If you would watch a show about 40+ people whose plane broke apart into non-aerodynamic pieces and plummeted thousands of feet, impacting an island and surviving without injury, then I believe you would watch anything.* If the lostaways were not placed on the beach, then the show is not worth watching, is it?

What is more likely: that a couple people were purposefully embedded with debris or that 40+ people fell from the sky and landed safely on a beach?


Plausible? I have one that's just as plausible as Hurley's "cursed" numbers, yeah. Either "the monster" or some other supernatural entity protected specific passengers.
And let me make your question more valid...
What is more likely: that a supernatural entity protected specific passengers in a devastating crash or that a few people were purposefully embedded with debris, a hundred-plus were killed in ways that make it look exactly like they were in a plane crash (it'd have to be exact because Jack The Doctor could tell otherwise) and gave ALL of the 40-plus survivors various scratches and cuts to make it even more "realistic"?

Plausible? I have one that's just as plausible as Hurley's "cursed" numbers, yeah. Either "the monster" or some other supernatural entity protected specific passengers.
And let me make your question more valid...
What is more likely: that a supernatural entity protected specific passengers in a devastating crash or that a few people were purposefully embedded with debris, a hundred-plus were killed in ways that make it look exactly like they were in a plane crash (it'd have to be exact because Jack The Doctor could tell otherwise) and gave ALL of the 40-plus survivors various scratches and cuts to make it even more "realistic"?

Are you serious? You have one choice that requires a made-up supernatural being/force and one choice that can be done with enough manpower and easily explained within existing reality, and you are going with the supernatural being as the more plausible? BWHAAAAAHHAHAHAAAAHAHAAAAA!!! Poor Occam is rolling over in his grave!

CTL, I can't believe that you just cited Occam's Razor after proposing that the whole thing is an elaborate ruse.

Please.

Are you serious?* You have one choice that requires a made-up supernatural being/force and one choice that can be done with enough manpower and easily explained within existing reality, and you are going with the supernatural being as the more plausible? BWHAAAAAHHAHAHAAAAHAHAAAAA!!!* Poor Occam is rolling over in his grave!


That he is if you're saying that the many assumptions that are needed to justify "enough manpower" (meaning at least 100 people working together flawlessly) is simpler than the One assumption that is neccesary for the "supernatural" theory.
Also... considering that the WRITERS have said that there are both scientific and supernatural aspects, if you don't believe that then this discussion is going to end rather abruptly.

That he is if you're saying that the many assumptions that are needed to justify "enough manpower" (meaning at least 100 people working together flawlessly) is simpler than the One assumption that is neccesary for the "supernatural" theory.
Also... considering that the WRITERS have said that there are both scientific and supernatural aspects, if you don't believe that then this discussion is going to end rather abruptly.

Please link to a quote by any of the writers to back up that contention. Thanks in advance.

Regarding the 100+ people working flawlessly together: in theory, a single person could have pulled it off, and made a bunch of mistakes along the way, such as forgetting to strap people back in their seats. Obviously a group of people could pull it off easier. How's this for a theory: the pilot smuggles a chemical agent aboard and puts everyone into a deep twilight. He lands the plane on the island. Everyone is offloaded, dosed with a strong hypnotic and exposed to some media presentation that they somewhat "remember" as the trauma of a plane crash. They are taken to the staged "crash site" and bloodied up a bit, and some are killed. Meanwhile, the plane's emergency beacon is disabled and the plane is destroyed (or ditched at sea). Do I think that this is what happened? Not exactly, but it is certainly more plausible than they floated miraculously to the beach on giant magic feathers.

And to creme: what is your more simple explanation for how the 40+ people ended up safe and sound on the island (bear in mind that pretty much ANYTHING is more simple than a supernatural being)?

By Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is that they survived the plane crash, just as we saw it.

Your theory is very complicated.

You do know what Occam's Razor is, right?

ETA: That they survived a crash is also the only explanation thus far that is supported by evidence presented in the show. Hypothesize all you want, but you'll need show based evidence to support a theory.

I'm not sure what you mean about finding a quote where the writers "back up" the statement that some elements of the show will be pseudo-scientific. Do you want the original interviews where creators said that all of the island mysteries will be explainable either through science or pseudo-science?

Please link to a quote by any of the writers to back up that contention.* Thanks in advance.

Regarding the 100+ people working flawlessly together:* in theory, a single person could have pulled it off, and made a bunch of mistakes along the way, such as forgetting to strap people back in their seats.* Obviously a group of people could pull it off easier.* How's this for a theory: the pilot smuggles a chemical agent aboard and puts everyone into a deep twilight.* He lands the plane on the island.* Everyone is offloaded, dosed with a strong hypnotic and exposed to some media presentation that they somewhat "remember" as the trauma of a plane crash.* They are taken to the staged "crash site" and bloodied up a bit, and some are killed.* Meanwhile, the plane's emergency beacon is disabled and the plane is destroyed (or ditched at sea).* Do I think that this is what happened?* Not exactly, but it is certainly more plausible than they floated miraculously to the beach on giant magic feathers.

And to creme:* what is your more simple explanation for how the 40+ people ended up safe and sound on the island (bear in mind that pretty much ANYTHING is more simple than a supernatural being)?


http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=10314.0

By Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is that they survived the plane crash, just as we saw it.

Your theory is very complicated.

You do know what Occam's Razor is, right?

ETA: That they survived a crash is also the only explanation thus far that is supported by evidence presented in the show. Hypothesize all you want, but you'll need show based evidence to support a theory.

I'm not sure what you mean about finding a quote where the writers "back up" the statement that some elements of the show will be pseudo-scientific. Do you want the original interviews where creators said that all of the island mysteries will be explainable either through science or pseudo-science?

Yeah, I have some faint idea of what Occam's Razor is and means. :) *Please brush up on it a bit, will you? *I could come up with a monumentally "complex" story of how they came to be on the island, using only concepts within our known reality, and it would still pale in comparable "complexity" to any explanation that violates any known physical law. *The chance of one person surviving a crash from a plane that broke apart in mid air is infinitesimally small. *The chance of ten people surviving thusly is incalculable. *40+? *Please. *

Again, can you give me any possible explanation for how they could have wound up on that island via an actual crash of the type depicted in Pilot?

And yes, a link to the actual writer's quote would be helpful.

What is more likely: that a supernatural entity protected specific passengers in a devastating crash or that a few people were purposefully embedded with debris, a hundred-plus were killed in ways that make it look exactly like they were in a plane crash (it'd have to be exact because Jack The Doctor could tell otherwise) and gave ALL of the 40-plus survivors various scratches and cuts to make it even more "realistic"?

Those scratches are pretty interesting...I think, anyway. They're pretty artsy...not realistic at all.

How's this for a theory: the pilot smuggles a chemical agent aboard and puts everyone into a deep twilight. He lands the plane on the island. Everyone is offloaded, dosed with a strong hypnotic and exposed to some media presentation that they somewhat "remember" as the trauma of a plane crash. They are taken to the staged "crash site" and bloodied up a bit, and some are killed. Meanwhile, the plane's emergency beacon is disabled and the plane is destroyed (or ditched at sea).
Why? For what purpose? To what end?

Why? For what purpose? To what end?

Wish I knew! I think those questions can apply to many facets of the show.

CTL -
No matter how infintesimal the odds, the explanation that they survived the crash is still simpler than your proposal that somebody staged the crash and placed them on the island. The logistics behind such a staging are mind boggling.

Here's one link to a a post by David Fury on science and pseudo-science (http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=136.msg1135#msg1135) in the show. There's also a quote from JJ Abrams.

CTL -
No matter how infintesimal the odds, the explanation that they survived the crash is still simpler than your proposal that somebody staged the crash and placed them on the island. The logistics behind such a staging are mind boggling.

Here's one link to a a post by David Fury on science and pseudo-science (http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=136.msg1135#msg1135) in the show. There's also a quote from JJ Abrams.



Building and launching a space shuttle is less "complex" from an Occam's Razor point of view than a child building a snap-together anti-gravity machine. While I get the impression that you may have read my post, I don't think you took the time to wrap your mind around it: any explanation based in real-world physical laws, now matter what the logistical barriers, is more likely correct than any explanation based on undiscovered physical phenomena. That is why I asked for any possible explanation that lands the lostaways safely on the island via a crash, without violating known physical laws. I think the quote link you posted does more to undermine than support the "pseudo-science" theory.