which is a better couple? [Archive] - { Flicks N Shows | Fringe Division | Red Panda Resources

banshee

10-30-2005, 01:49 PM

Oh, I didn't realize Jack was Leo. Cool:cool:

And there is some evidence besides Claire saying she was a gemini the things Kate does and people(not all) think she is deceptive(some people view them (geminis)that way, not all) and that's one of the gemini traits, she's always antsy (she always is doing something) which is another, flirtatious another(not so much but there are some scenes with Jack which shows her flirting), has a sense of independece which is another.

I just brought up the gemini thing because some people think that she is inconsistent and that is one of the traits of a gemini. I don't really believe in it but maybe the writers used that when they made her character??
Oh I just meant in the sense of getting indication as to what signs other characters were. We had a clue I believe Claire is Libra based on her b day....I definitely think they had traits in mind otherwise why mention it. Plus Claire had an astrologically based background. Personally I do find folks generally fit their sun profiles while I don't believe in editorialized horoscopes. Course the beauty of a show is it doesn't matter if it's true because it can be within the context of their story.

Gemini has the "twins" as their sign & we know that's a big theme in the show. As is the fact humans by nature are not typically good or bad but rather a duality of both. That's the crux of a Gemini. They're supposedly one way in person & another in private. It has to do more though w/the struggle of showing their vulnerability of who they really are (i.e. trusting someone w/themselves) rather than being "2 different ppl".

Interesting chat :) ..gotta love ambiguous topics ;)

Island Dreamer

10-30-2005, 02:10 PM

Interesting chat :) ..gotta love ambiguous topics ;)

Ditto:smile: It makes me wonder if other chracters signs match up too like Jin, I think they showed his birthday on one of the recent episodes.

Island Dreamer

10-30-2005, 02:46 PM

I think I'm turning into a Jater:fear3: , after thinking about it I think they WOULD be a good couple. I mean Jack lost his wife and Kate can help him to open his heart again and Kate is always running and he could teach her to stay. And Sawyer could be with Ana (Sana) or someone else.:kiss1: :love: :inlove: :mushy:

Surfergirle15

10-30-2005, 03:21 PM

Wait...

Do we know for sure Kate is a gemini?.....

thatd be cool cuz i am one too :biggrin:

tropicanacabana

10-30-2005, 03:23 PM

:biggrin: jack and kate!!!!

arias_decamp

11-07-2005, 08:38 AM

If Sawyer were ever truly in Kate's sights, he ruined it when he ratted her out infront of everyone before going on the raft. If no other time, she realized then that he would always put his needs infront of hers. Now, when she's with Jack on the other hand, she always seems to try and prove her worth. She watched over him while he recovered from giving blood, she was at the front of the line when the group was trying to free Jack and Charlie from the cave in, and there are more instances. True, she sat with Sawyer while he was resting from his knife fight with Sayid. But we saw how that ended. Sawyer tricked her into giving him a kiss after being tortured. The look on her face was one of sincere distaste. Sawyer told her that Jack was trapped in a cave, snd she flew like the wind to help save him. She is at Jack's side, trying at every turn to prove that she is worthy not only as a person, but as a woman. Her relationship with Jack is completely different than with Sawyer. She'll use Sawyer, but she'll follow Jack. Jack knows this, and Kate knows that Jack knows this. But it's still one of those "unsaid understood" things. Kate will eventually help Jack learn to love again. I'll add more later, but that's all for now.

QueenElessar

11-09-2005, 12:44 AM

If Sawyer were ever truly in Kate's sights, he ruined it when he ratted her out infront of everyone before going on the raft. If no other time, she realized then that he would always put his needs infront of hers.

I still take strong issue with this kind of statement because KATE was the one who started being really selfish in Born to Run. She wanted on that raft and she didn't care who she walked on to get to that point. She was perfectly happy to try to get Sawyer thrown off....and to help Sun poison Jin...so that she could get a spot.

She was putting HER needs in front of everyone else! What Sawyer did was call her on it...and force her to own up to her behaviour. I know people take issue with him outting her in front of other people...and I get that it seems harsh. But I still maintain that it needed to be done. Kate was using her reputation on the island to hide behind the 'good girl' facade...and manipulate people behind their backs. Without shattering that facade...Sawyer couldn't really put a stop to her behaviour. No one would ever believe him over her because they automatically saw him as the villain. And Kate KNEW that too...she was counting on that.

And yes Surfergirle Kate said in White Rabbit that she was a Gemini. Claire called her on it :)

TRoss

11-09-2005, 07:47 AM

I agree Q, it was Kate that made the error there, not Sawyer. He had been her protector (think WTCMB) and secret keeper from the beginning, and never broke that until he though she had stabbed him in the back by making people think HE had poisoned Michael.

And since this poll is about who makes the best couple, I'll have to add that people make mistakes in relationships, for lots of reasons, and I doubt this will be the first show where there's a relationship where neither side gets hurt by the other. Doesn't make for good drama.

arias_decamp

11-09-2005, 07:59 AM

QueenElessar

11-09-2005, 08:11 AM

Well...they are a lot alike, I'm not denying that. But I find either total opposite attract...OR people who are a lot alike end up understanding eachother.

Sawyer and Kate are actually quite different when it comes to their methods of dealing with people...how they choose to operate. They come from similar circumstances...and I think often operate under the same philosophy...but their personalities are very different. Just look at how Kate has dealt with people on the island...vs. how Sawyer has ;)

Honestly, it's all a matter of opinion, but I think Sawyer and Kate share a lot of similarities that could really create a strong bond between them. But they are also different enough in terms of their personalities...that they could compliment eachother.

arias_decamp

11-09-2005, 08:43 AM

[quote=QueenElessar;588993]Sawyer and Kate are actually quite different when it comes to their methods of dealing with people...how they choose to operate. They come from similar cirfairy duststances...and I think often operate under the same philosophy...but their personalities are very different. Just look at how Kate has dealt with people on the island...vs. how Sawyer has ;)
quote]

Another good point :) However, I think they operate under the same philosophy for different reasons. Sawyer, at some point in time made the choice to swindle and manipulate people. He became the man he was "hunting". Kate, on the other hand had to learn her ways while on the run. I try to keep in mind though, while making that statement about Kate, that the circumstances of her crime(s) is still a mystery. They do deal with people quite differently, and I think that they will both go through major changes (for the better) throughout their stay on the island.

Jack pulled Kate's mug shot from the Marshall's jacket while treating him, so he knew as well about Kate. Not knowing what type of crime she committed nor knowing any of her circumstances (filters are spelling it wrong) (it's supposed to sound like cir-come-stances) beforehand captured Kate's attention. He had her sew him up on the beach, even when she said that she couldn't. Jack believed in her, believed that she could do it, and that's a powerful thing. To believe in someone, and for them to know it, and for them to need it, can work miracles. Kate looks Sawyer in the eye, but she looks up to Jack. Just my opinion anyway:)

KNJ

11-09-2005, 08:57 AM

Okay well everyone else is posting about it here, so I'm "digging in." ha ha Of course Sawyer and kate handle things differently. They are different people. I wouldn't expect them to be an exact clone. however they handle things with the same methods. They will both double cross. Neither have extremely wonderful redeeming qualities. Only thing though Kate seems to have just learned how to do these things. Sawyer did NOT have to be on the run. He chose the life he did for himself. Jack brings out all of Kates good sides. even when Kate has been deceptive to Jack, (just because she wanted to keep things to herself.) jack still treated Kate the same. He has showed her that not everyone will "out" her, and can really care about her for her, and who she is, not what she has done.

SweetiePie

11-09-2005, 09:07 AM

TRoss and QueenElessar-you both make excellent points. I have to admit, I never quite looked at it that way. But, in the points that you both made, it seems to make it more obvious that Kate and Sawyer are the same as fire and gasoline, not a good mixutre.

but thats what makes them so much fun to watch.......They ignite the screen and create magic when they are one screen together...........I love couples like that

QueenElessar

11-09-2005, 09:21 AM

[QUOTE=KNJ;589043]Okay well everyone else is posting about it here, so I'm "digging in." ha ha Of course Sawyer and kate handle things differently. They are different people. I wouldn't expect them to be an exact clone. however they handle things with the same methods.QUOTE]

Ah...see I disagree. Their similarities come from their experiences. They share a bond because they understand what it's like to be on the outside. However, I don't think they handle things the same at all. On the island...Sawyer has been upfront about everything he's done. He's basically said "I'm a bastard...take it or leave it". He deliberately sets himself apart from others...playing the role of 'the villain'. Kate on the other hand has been playing more of a role. She's gone out of her way to get involved...to try to fit in. She wants people to see her good side...for whatever reason. All her manipulations have been done behind the scenes...whereas Sawyer's were right to people's faces.

I think Kate helps connect Sawyer to everyone else...becuase otherwise he's be completely reclusive. But she brings out in him, a desire to 'fit in'...or at least not to seclude himself. And Sawyer allows Kate a refuge from the 'role' that she often plays with other people. She only lets them seee one side of her...and he basically allows her to let her guard down and let her 'darker' side breathe too.

If you look at it that way...I think they fit together very nicely :)

Personally, I think it's a misconception that just because Sawyer is okay with Kate's dark side...that he wants to drag her down. I think you have to learn to accept ALL of who you really are before you can move on. And Kate and Sawyer are BOTH struggling with that...in very different ways :). And I think they could very well learn how to take that next step together :)

TRoss

11-09-2005, 09:23 AM

Me too SweetiePie. :grin: Like David and Maddie on Moonlighting, or Remington Steele and Laura Holt on, well, Remington Steele. Those couples were great to watch.

QueenElessar

11-09-2005, 09:24 AM

arias_decamp

11-09-2005, 09:43 AM

And yes...I DO think Kate looks up to Jack :)

But in my opinion, that's not necessarily a good thing. I think she idolizes him a little and in a way, it hinders her from really accepting herself. Because she's striving to be something worthy of Jack's respect (and this is in no way insinuating that Jack asked her to do that...or doesn't respect her as she is), but she doesn't respect HERself

And this is why they (Jack and Kate) would make the better couple. Kate most likely hates the decisions that she has made in her past. She lost the respect that she once had for herself. Since being a fugitive, society looked at her as trash. Right or wrong, she was/is a criminal. And treated just that way. And Swayer reminds her of it. Since crashing on the island, life is new. I am not so sure that idolizing Jack keeps Kate from accepting herself, I think that it helps her strive to be the person that she truly wants to be. Jack knows that she is a criminal, but he treats her the same, if not better, than everyone else. I mean, you don't give a hardened criminal quava beans. A woman that is trying to manipulate you doesn't spend hours at the front of the line trying to dig you out of a cave in. She's battling everyone's preception her, as well as her own.

KNJ

11-09-2005, 10:03 AM

[quote=KNJ;589043]Okay well everyone else is posting about it here, so I'm "digging in." ha ha Of course Sawyer and kate handle things differently. They are different people. I wouldn't expect them to be an exact clone. however they handle things with the same methods.QUOTE]

Ah...see I disagree. Their similarities come from their experiences. They share a bond because they understand what it's like to be on the outside. However, I don't think they handle things the same at all. On the island...Sawyer has been upfront about everything he's done. He's basically said "I'm a model student...take it or leave it". He deliberately sets himself apart from others...playing the role of 'the villain'. Kate on the other hand has been playing more of a role. She's gone out of her way to get involved...to try to fit in. She wants people to see her good side...for whatever reason. All her manipulations have been done behind the scenes...whereas Sawyer's were right to people's faces.

I think Kate helps connect Sawyer to everyone else...becuase otherwise he's be completely reclusive. But she brings out in him, a desire to 'fit in'...or at least not to seclude himself. And Sawyer allows Kate a refuge from the 'role' that she often plays with other people. She only lets them seee one side of her...and he basically allows her to let her guard down and let her 'darker' side breathe too.

If you look at it that way...I think they fit together very nicely :)

Personally, I think it's a misconception that just because Sawyer is okay with Kate's dark side...that he wants to drag her down. I think you have to learn to accept ALL of who you really are before you can move on. And Kate and Sawyer are BOTH struggling with that...in very different ways :). And I think they could very well learn how to take that next step together :)

I totally get what you are saying I just don't see it that way, but that's why it's fun to discuss. I REALLY agree with the top paragraph. She DOES help him to fit in, but oddly enough aside from the kiss I think Kate and sawyer have a type of brother sister realationship. They fight like brother and sister. No I'm not saying that' s their whole relationship, I just can't see them being good for eachother. I try and try, but it's like Kate likes sawyer and relates to him, and will go around him when she wants to feel like the better person ha ha. Kate does not Idolize Jack, but more so sees in him the type of person she wants to be, and she also sees Jack for the person he is. She sees his inner demons and really helps let him see that bad things will happen and it's not his fault. He can only do so much and she appreciates all the things he does. I guess just like how you can't see what I see, I just don't see how people DON't see the connection she has to Jack. I love Sawyer's character, and I think Josh Holloway's a hottie ha ha but when it comes to who I want Sawyer with, you're gonna think it's funny, but I want to see Sawyer with Claire. I think they would be AWESOME together. I think Sawyer being a daddy would help is "daddy issues" and I think would bring out the softer side of him. ha ha

arias_decamp

11-09-2005, 10:10 AM

Especially since the only thing that would quiet "Turnip Head" down was Sawyer's voice :) I thought that was awesome :) I really think Sawyer's character will truly emerge to be a good man. I can't wait to see that. But still, Kate and Jack are the better couple, in my opinion.

LostElphie1287

11-09-2005, 10:14 AM

I'm somewhat conflicted- I think that both men could provide for Kate in different ways. I guess I'm just not sure!!!

KNJ

11-09-2005, 10:16 AM

And this is why they (Jack and Kate) would make the better couple. Kate most likely hates the decisions that she has made in her past. She lost the respect that she once had for herself. Since being a fugitive, society looked at her as trash. Right or wrong, she was/is a criminal. And treated just that way. And Swayer reminds her of it. Since crashing on the island, life is new. I am not so sure that idolizing Jack keeps Kate from accepting herself, I think that it helps her strive to be the person that she truly wants to be. Jack knows that she is a criminal, but he treats her the same, if not better, than everyone else. I mean, you don't give a hardened criminal quava beans. A woman that is trying to manipulate you doesn't spend hours at the front of the line trying to dig you out of a cave in. She's battling everyone's preception her, as well as her own.

Gotta give you some kudos for this post, it absolutely rocks and describes the essence of Jack and Kate. NICE........:thumbup:

arias_decamp

11-09-2005, 10:38 AM

Gotta give you some kudos for this post, it absolutely rocks and describes the essence of Jack and Kate. NICE........:thumbup:

Thanks KNJ! I appreciate the kudos!!! I love this discussion :)

banshee

11-09-2005, 05:07 PM

Folks have had some great thoughts :)

I know we vary on opinions about what happened w/the outing so I preface comments by saying it's just my perspective.

Kate didn't make it look like Sawyer poisoned Michael. Michael jumped to that conclusion all on his own. He had been accusatorily slinging mud at Sawyer all afternoon, & having the Pepto Bismol tossed @ him was an unfortunate confirming coincidence in his mind.

Was Kate trying to get the raft spot, surely, but at no pnt in time did she suggest nor "allow" Sawyer to be blamed for the poisoning incident because she was gone from the beach. She had been @ the caves & was just wandering back when Michael/Sawyer were getting into it. She had no idea Sawyer was even being accused. Why would she think he was because when she last spoke to Micheal, he seemed completely copacetic w/Sawyer going on the raft.....It's why she looked so surprised when Sawyer grabbed her & started in.

I'm in no way saying Sawyer didn't have a right to be suspicious or angry w/Kate, but their plan to poison Jin was already in effect in the very next scene after Kate, in response to Sawyer's "Don't worry Puddin, your secret is safe is with me", made a snarky response typical of their dynamic, "If I want your spot, I'll get your spot." Earlier she had tried to convince Michael she was a better sailor than Sawyer, but that's about the extent of it.

Sawyer jumped to perhaps understandable conclusions, but I do not think Kate "deserved" to be outed like that. She had been the one person on the island to welcome Sawyer into the group @ the golf game, even at the possible expense of her "status" w/the others since at the time, Sawyer was unliked. She defended him about the torture, showed him compassion re:his past, & has shown concern for him repeatedly over him shaking in his sleep, his artery, & headaches. I think it's one thing to suspect her, even reveal her to Mike, but to make her a public display, drag her like that in front of everyone, & destroy her social status, was uncalled for imo. I believe there's other ways Sawyer could have accomplished the same goal.

Again just my 2 cents...

And yes...I DO think Kate looks up to Jack :)

But in my opinion, that's not necessarily a good thing. I think she idolizes him a little and in a way, it hinders her from really accepting herself. Because she's striving to be something worthy of Jack's respect (and this is in no way insinuating that Jack asked her to do that...or doesn't respect her as she is), but she doesn't respect HERself
I think Jack has actually been helping her to respect herself more. I don't disagree she feels insecure, like she isn't good enough, but no matter if Kate has told him or done to him, Jack has continued to be there & I think not only give her a chance to start over, but make her feel deserving of it by implying she is more than she thinks by action & through words. "I don't think that's true, you're not running now". After finding her mugshot he tells her "If you need me you know where to find me", & that she deserves a chance to start over. She drugs him, he makes a passing joke. He told her "No one owes anyone anything" after she had been outed when as the leader of the group, you'd think he'd care what others thought & would want to disassociate himself from/her. And he have her seeds after HE was used & lied to over the Marshal's exhumation. I would assume that would all be incredibly self-affirming for Kate precisely because she does think so highly of him, & that's what scares her.

Kate can't get over her insecurities overnight anymore than Jack can. He's going to mess up, she's going to as well, but as time goes on I think Jack will help her to reach her full personal potential by opening her up to new ways of thinking & experiences. He is challenging her status quo, but like training wheels on a bike, he's also supporting her while she learns how to empower herself. And for him, I think she's teaching him there are "grey" areas & not everything is black/white. This will help him be more accepting of himself, of his father, & help to dissipate some of his pain.

Adding that while I think in the beginning Kate more idolized Jack, I find a difference in how she sees him than Sarah did. Sarah didn't view him as a full man imo, she just saw him as a hero. Kate does in some capacity, but she's seen him at his best, his worst, & I think has gotten a more comprehensive picture of who Jack is because of the circumstances they're in. He's been very flawed, & very selfless at the same time. So to me ironically because of who Kate, I think she gives Jack breathing room from the expectations placed upon him. She understands that like her, he will make mistakes, but she's still in awe that he doesn't make excuses for himself & can be so giving to others.

QueenElessar

11-09-2005, 08:01 PM

Oh, no I realize that Kate wasn't responsible for Michael believing that Sawyer poisoned him. I think she was happy to go along with it, but that wasn't her ochestration.

It wasn't about that though...at least for me. It was about the fact that she tried to get him kicked off the raft. Kate was happy to take any spot she could get. Jin was one option...but convincing Michael that Sawyer didn't deserve a spot, was another. She was playing tons of games behind the scenes, in order to serve her own goals.

And it was indirectly Kate's discussions with Michael, that led to Michael reconsidering Sawyers position, fighting with him, then jumping to conclusions about the poisoning. The point was that Kate was playing games...and it was all possible because she was able to operate behind the scenes, and no one suspected what she was really up to.

Sawyer WAS angry, and I think his actions WERE impulsive....but the point for me is that once Kate was outted, her means of manipulation was cut off. And that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned

arias_decamp

11-10-2005, 07:31 AM

Her means of manipulation were cut off, I agree there. But, she really was trying to sell herself as the better sailor. I think that if she were truly trying to manipulate Michael, she would have reminded him that Sawyer is the bad apple, the troublemaker, a person that gets along with no one, etc. I suppose that what I am getting at is that she did not say anything malicious, only saying that she was the better sailor. I suppose that could be seen as playing games. I probably would have done the same thing. To quote Banshee, this is just my perspective. ;)

QueenElessar

11-11-2005, 04:39 AM

Yes, but that was because she's smart ;)

To call Sawyer a 'bad apple' or insult him...wouldn't really be beneficial, because that's something that most people already think. If she says that to Michael, it seems petty and spiteful and really highlights that she'll say anything to get a spot on the raft. Instead she came to him with a legitimate reason...tried to sell herself...made arguments against other people.

Kate's personna isn't really spiteful...and people ARE aware that she's friendly with Sawyer. For her to badmouth him, wouldn't fit with people's image of her. She needed to be a little more stealthy than that. So she argued using logic....AND subtlely hinted that Sawyer might not deserve that spot. She said "even Sawyer?" and Michael said he made a deal. He knew she was hinting at the fact that he isn't the most deserving person on the island.

Claire_littleton

11-11-2005, 09:25 AM

Oh God, both couples are horrible. Jack and Sawyer should be together :D That would be nice.

TRoss

11-18-2005, 10:33 PM

:lol2: Claire, that's hilarious!

I'm somewhat conflicted- I think that both men could provide for Kate in different ways. I guess I'm just not sure!!!
Yeah, when the show first started I liked the Jack and Kate dynamic - they had a nice rapport with each other, and seemed to be equals. But as time went on, I saw how different she was with each man, and I just though, you know she can be herself with Sawyer - that's what you really want in a relationship. And the chemistry, my god - they burn up the screen.

This being a fictional show, the writers may change things around and make it so Kate doesn't look at Jack as if she's pining over him, and sad that she isn't living up to his expectations, but its too late - that natural comfortableness she has with Sawyer, along with their great chemistry, has me sold on skate forever.

banshee

11-18-2005, 11:15 PM

Kate's insecurties are primarily a result of her looking glass self.... It's not easy for her to accept that someone she thinks so highly of, sees her in a way that is contradictory to her own negative perceptions. Since the first day, Jack has encouraged the strength within her she thought she didn't have. I.e. "I don't think that's true, you're not running running now." And by his example, she used that confidence & courage he gave her by counting to 5 twice in the series. I love that about JK's pairing. They have this symbiotic supportive nature about them. Sure they don't always agree, but as they say loving someone is easy relationships are hard. Particularly as Kate gets adjusted to having ppl care about her, & Jack deals w/the fear of being hurt & investing himself in someone after his father died & Sarah.

Jack has been there for Kate no matter what. She drugs him-he makes a passing joke, he sees her mugshot & he defends her to Hurley/Locke & tells Kate "If you need me, you know where to find me" & "we all deserve a chance to start over." Which is exemplified by him giving her seeds to make her smile when she deceived him..She was outed to the group & he tells her "No one owes anyone anything" & is sitting right beside her eating dinner not caring what anyone else thinks. That must be incredibly self affirming & scary for Kate to have someone believe in her...I think Jack isn't "saving" her, but helping her to find her own personal empowerment. She's been melancholy in her lifestyle, & you can see how she stares @ the pics of Tom and sometimes Sun/Jin that she longs for that herself.

Jack and Kate's dynamic is so appealing to me because they have an emotional, philosophical, & spiritual connection as well as great chemistry. I think their differences ironically help a lot to find the missing pieces of themselves to be whole.

TRoss

11-18-2005, 11:35 PM

Opinions vary, 50.63-49.38%

banshee

11-19-2005, 12:06 AM

yeah it's really close so it seems folks are torn on the issue. They've written things well to make ppl conflicted. Sign of a good show.

Island Caddy

11-20-2005, 10:32 AM

Oh God, both couples are horrible. Jack and Sawyer should be together :D That would be nice.

I second that.

And I want them both shirtless. :laughing:

I saw a horse

12-03-2005, 03:18 AM

Skate for now, Jate forever.

rubia

12-03-2005, 11:51 AM

Kate and Sawyer. They have amazing chemistry and with him she can be herself.
To me, Jack seems match with Ana. Loved their scene in WKD.

túriel

12-03-2005, 02:23 PM

i love Skate but i love Jate as well. it's hard for me to decide sometimes because both relationships are so diferent and interesting to watch. but i think Kate will get together with Jack in the end.

sweetdreamdisaster

12-03-2005, 07:00 PM

after this week's episode, you soooo totally see who Jack and Sawyer really are for Kate..oh boy.

jacknkate1

12-03-2005, 10:19 PM

Jate but the poll is closed, lol.....but yes definitely Jate.

Melt 4 Jack

12-04-2005, 12:23 AM

After watching "Born to Run" again last night, how could Kate and Sawyer ever be together. That episode was pure foreshadowing. Jate is fate!

Luanne

12-04-2005, 12:31 AM

After the episode What Kate Did how could skate not happen?

Melt 4 Jack

12-04-2005, 12:36 AM

Luanne

12-04-2005, 12:46 AM

wildjinx

12-04-2005, 02:09 AM

Kate is emotionally invested in Sawyer as proved by the bottle scene in ...and Found.
which part? The part when she was more interested in the bottle than the in the fate of the raftees? (her first thought was to get at the bottle, not to search for survivors) Or the part where she is smiling and chuckling with Sun 2 seconds after seeing physical proof that something wiggy happened to the raft and that Sawyer is likely the main course for a shark?

Kate was also watching over him for like 24 hours, she was worried about him because he does care about him. Just as she watched over Charlie after his kidnapping, Claire during the birth, Claire when she'd passed out in WR, Sayid when he came back injured, etc. etc. Kate doesn't like to see people in pain ... she's a nurturer. And if you're going for the "caring = love" angle, she's spent a heck of alot more time caring for Jack (Pilot, ATBCHDI, TGG, , etc) than anyone else on the island.

TRoss

12-04-2005, 03:33 AM

Listen to what kate said. She has feelings for him, that can't be denied and its more than a friendship feeling. Kate is emotionally invested in Sawyer as proved by the bottle scene in ...and Found. Kate was also watching over him for like 24 hours, she was worried about him because he does care about him. One thing that Kate and Sawyer is not is a brother/sister relationship.
Not to mention Kate said, "everytime I start to have feelings for him . . . " As much as some people want to pretend there's nothing there, the writers, and the voters on this poll, have said otherwise.

So come on, the writers have SAID they were going to explore emotions with all of them. As much as all of us don't want to see anything between the opposing couple, the writers are going to put it there. So just enjoy the moments your couple gets, and close your eyes for the others.

Which couple you like is a matter of taste, no amount of trying to explain scenes is going to change someone's opinion.

BTW Luanne, I LOVE your avatar!!

AFaithL

12-04-2005, 01:19 PM

Sawyer and Kate!

bobbinghead1

12-04-2005, 05:24 PM

Doesn't mean that there's anything beyond a really close friendship/ brother-sister relationship.
Nah, brothers and sisters don't shared hot wet kisses with a tongue.

With Kate and Sawyer, people tend to over analyze and not accept Skate at face values.

When Kate went ballistic over a fevered Sawyer, they said it's because she's feeling sorry for him. When Kate and Sawyer kissed, they said Kate was being forced into it (did you realize how much she enjoyed it?). When Kate was going hysterical in the message in bottle scene thinking Sawyer was dead, people said she's looking for a message she wrote which would reveal her past (she probably went back and destroyed the evidence but there's no time to show it in the episode?). Kate was watching over Sawyer day and night, even the blind can see that the concern is more than for a good friend. What about when she said she had feelings for Sawyer in WKD(she's lying and why?)

Come on, it's a love triangle. Even the writers said Kate had feelings for both men. Sawyer and Jack are half of a better man. She's just having a hard time to choose.

Melt 4 Jack

12-04-2005, 05:44 PM

Shannon and Boone did

bobbinghead1

12-04-2005, 05:50 PM

Shannon and Boone did
And that's why they are both dead.

TRoss

12-04-2005, 11:11 PM

Melt 4 Jack

12-04-2005, 11:21 PM

And that's why they are both dead.

I'm going to agree to disagree, but the above comment doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

bobbinghead1

12-04-2005, 11:27 PM

:lol2:

You're right, bobbinghead, the writers said it'll be a love triangle, and they also said Kate and Sawyer would be thinking about each other. Well unless we're psychic, that bottle scene is really the only scene that really deals with that.

Thanks TRoss. Damian actually confirmed this the podcast for Nov 28. Did you have a chance to listen to that?

TRoss

12-05-2005, 02:52 AM

Nope - I have dial up. :( I do love those podcasts though. Nice to hear it from the horse's mouth, as it were - the people who actually know what's going on. ;)

lost_aussie_gal

12-05-2005, 05:55 AM

Just as she watched over Charlie after his kidnapping, Claire during the birth, Claire when she'd passed out in WR, Sayid when he came back injured, etc. etc. Kate doesn't like to see people in pain ... she's a nurturer. And if you're going for the "caring = love" angle, she's spent a heck of alot more time caring for Jack (Pilot, ATBCHDI, TGG, , etc) than anyone else on the island.

Well actually I dont remember ever seeing her show so much concern with the others as she did with Sawyer. Sure she made sure they were all right but she did not stay up all night not taking her eyes of them. She has feelings for Sawyer, she loves him but feels ashamed of herself because somehow he reminds her of Wayne. As soon as she can get over this and Sawyer can get over his skeletons they can really step up their relationship. They understand one another and Kate feels she does not have to try to be something that she is not when she is around Sawyer, and that is what a good relationship is all about. Excepting the person for who they are.

Skate is beyond fate.

Luanne

12-05-2005, 08:50 AM

SweetiePie

12-05-2005, 09:10 AM

Honestly, what emotions did Sawyer show to Kate when he woke up? Nothing really. Kate was relieved that he didn't die, but watch her face closely. There's no look of love in her eyes either. She smiled in a response to his wit. I was too. Doesn't mean that there's anything beyond a really close friendship/ brother-sister relationship. I just don't see where "What Kate Did" pushed the Kate/Sawyer relationship into certainty.

Guess you missed the part where Kate admitted that she "feels something" for Sawyer?

Or the writers mentioning that Kate has an "emotional attachment" to Sawyer?

Its one thing to not like a couple..but its completely another to dismiss it completely becasue it doesnt fit in with your idea of "fate"

How long will you keep denying that Skate might happen?

I know for myself that I am not looking forward to Jate..but I know that some form of it will happen..at some point........So there is no use denying it...It just makes the pill easier to swallow in the end

LostNLuvinIt

12-05-2005, 10:02 AM

100% agree with TRoss. It is beyond me why people continue to deny something is happening with Kate and Sawyer because the writers have said that the love triangle between Jack,Kate, and Sawyer will heat up this year,plus the fact that they have said or given clues to suggest that Kate and Sawyer will happen this. I just want to clarify something I said earlier when I mentioned that Kate is emotionally invested in Sawyer. This was actually said by Damon was I would take this as a fact.

and also

Guess you missed the part where Kate admitted that she "feels something" for Sawyer?

Or the writers mentioning that Kate has an "emotional attachment" to Sawyer?

Its one thing to not like a couple..but its completely another to dismiss it completely becasue it doesnt fit in with your idea of "fate"

How long will you keep denying that Skate might happen?

I know for myself that I am not looking forward to Jate..but I know that some form of it will happen..at some point........So there is no use denying it...It just makes the pill easier to swallow in the end

Has anyone ever considered that what you see as 'feelings' of a romantic nature between Kate and Sawyer might be seen as feelings of friendship to someone else? These two posts, questioning other posters as to why they 'deny' something sound like they actually feel threatened by the fact that someone else doesn't view something the same way they do.

I don't deny that Kate has some kind of feelings for Sawyer....I just personally don't see them being feelings of the romantic type. So what if something happens between them? I'm not thrilled about it, but it doesn't bother me, because I don't see Kate looking at Sawyer in that way....and I do see it when she looks at Jack. Do I care if you see it the same way? No. Do I concern myself that perhaps you are in denial and feel a need to tell you so? No. These two posts I am quoting seem to give the air of feeling slighted because you feel someone is dismissing what you believe to be validity to your ship....but how often do you yourself or others around you do the same thing to the opposing ship? Damon says a lot of things....some make skaters happy, some make Jaters happy. He has also said that as time goes on Jack will represent the real adult love that Kate will want....which totally goes along with what we've seen in her storyline and flashbacks thus far, she thinks that is something out of the question for her (and now we know why she thinks that). You say we should take as fact that Kate is emotionally invested in Sawyer because Damon says it (and btw, emotionally invested, again does not necessarily mean romantically), so on the flip side shouldn't you take as fact that Jack is the way of Kate's future? I'm just saying that it might be easy to accuse someone of not placing validity on the statements of a VIP, but I would say take a look in the mirror because whomever you accuse of it probably isn't the only one doing it.

Off my soapbox....though I know I will be called back upon it......

narnoOorZz

12-05-2005, 12:43 PM

Jack & Kate... she needs someone like him, who can bring the best out of her. Unlike Sawyer who's breath is betrayal and deceit

LostNLuvinIt

12-05-2005, 04:42 PM

First off I realize that people view the relationship between Kate/Jack and Kate/Sawyer differently, that's why you are Jater and I am not, but to say that I am threatened because people have a different view then I do is assuming alot and would also be wrong, Just as you have stated above, it doesn't affect me one way or another if you don't agree with how I view a relationship or a scene. Obviously this year they are focusing on the love triangle between Jack/Kate/Sawyer so to say that you don't see how one part of the triangle is going to happen or even understand one part of it is one thing, but to actually deny that anything is happening is foolish in my opinion. The last point I will make is that because you are a Jater I don't think you could or do appreciate what Skaters see in their relationship because all you see when you look at them is pure friendship and that is not how Skaters feel about them,and visa vera with Jate.

And now you are calling people foolish? First people are in denial, then they are foolish. Again, if you feel you must comment on the people instead of the opinions, it reinforces the feeling that somehow those opinions must make you feel threatened in some way. Look at your last sentence...that says it all, and it says what I basically said earlier....we are each going to see things differently, not only because of 'ships', but also because of our own experiences, opinions, etc. Still...differing opinions doesn't mean you need to belittle people as 'foolish' or 'in denial'....there are two sides to every story, and if you are so sure others suffer such shortcomings, are you sure that you are without?

I don't view it as denying anything that is happening....I view it as not mattering in the big picture (I believe I basically said that in my previous response). There is a difference there.

LostNLuvinIt

12-05-2005, 05:09 PM

sorry but i am not belittling anyone just their opinions

Funny....doesn't really come off sounding that way.

Luanne

12-05-2005, 05:39 PM

sorry but i am not belittling anyone just arguing their position of their opinion. 'This is the exact reason why I normally never ship because people get too worked up about them then are jumped on for their opinion. Again i'll repeat i wasn't attacking anyone just trying to have a discussion if you took my reply as an attack and name calling you have misunderstood me

bobbinghead1

12-05-2005, 09:48 PM

To me, Kate and Sawyer's feelings for each other is beyong friendship. Their relationship on the island is actually the one which has grown the most over the course of last season and this season. They started off as disgust, then curiousity, then connection, then a fight, separation, reunion and now love. Their relationship has the most dynamics and is most interesting to watch. Kate has been avoiding her feelings for Sawyer because he represents everything she's been trying to run away from, but as hard as she tries, she still falls for him. Of course, they still have a long way to go but they have the potential to grow together and have a loving relationship.

On the other hand, I see Kate's obsession with being good the obstacle for Jack and Kate's relationship. Kate wanted to associate with Jack right from the start because she wanted so badly to be good and being with the good doctor would do it. This would mean that Kate's desire for Jack is not really based on her feelings for the man but based on her desire to be associated with something good. This means that it can be anyone, it just happens to be Jack at this point. In order for them to have a healthy relationship, Kate must overcome her obsession of trying to be the perfect girl and love Jack for Jack.

So in my opinion Kate and Sawyer is the better couple.

Melt 4 Jack

12-05-2005, 11:04 PM

Its one thing to not like a couple..but its completely another to dismiss it completely becasue it doesnt fit in with your idea of "fate"

How long will you keep denying that Skate might happen?

Well, LostNLuvinIt already replied with most of what I would have said, great post by the way, so I'll just add to it a little.

First off, I never denied that the Kate and Sawyer relationship would happen. Do I want it to happen? No. Will it happen? Probably. Do I think it's a good thing for Sawyer? Yes. Do I think it's a good thing for Kate? Absolutely not. Sawyer needs someone like Kate, but Kate deserves better than Sawyer. They're both redeemable characters, but Kate is much further along than Sawyer in that department mainly because she's trying harder.

Second, please don't accuse me of dismissing facts stated in the podcasts when I haven't even heard them. Who would argue with what the producers say. They know exactly what's going through every character's head and what their actions imply. I'm certainly not going to argue with them. I believe the only thing I did was merely question whether or not you were reading too much into what they said. I don't remember the exact quote of what they said but I think it was something along the lines of "there are emotions between Kate and Sawyer." Love is an emotion, but so is anger, jealousy, hostility, etc... I'm sure they were referring to love. It would make sense in the whole love triangle department. But you can't say that "emotions" strictly implies love. To do so would be to exclude the possiblity of other paths, which coincidently, would be what you accused me of doing. I'm trying to have an objective argument over the love triangle topic, but everytime I write something that is not pro-Sawyer, you seem to jump on me. I'm confused as to why this is since I backup most of what I say with direct observations of the show, not just some fantasy that I've made up in my head. If you're going to ask me to be objective, you should do the same.

Third, do not call me or infer that I am foolish. I am far from it. Attack the opinions, not the poster.

Finally, I'm not here to make enemies. I'm not here to dismiss your opinions because they aren't what I see. Provocating in-depth conversation is what makes this show unique. It's what makes this board fun. I enjoy posting with opposing viewpoints because it challenges me to see things differently and consider things that I've haven't thought of yet. That's really what a message board is all about.

Melt

Jinx

12-06-2005, 02:36 AM

TRoss

12-06-2005, 06:25 AM

Has anyone ever considered that what you see as 'feelings' of a romantic nature between Kate and Sawyer might be seen as feelings of friendship to someone else? These two posts, questioning other posters as to why they 'deny' something sound like they actually feel threatened by the fact that someone else doesn't view something the same way they do.

. . .

And now you are calling people foolish? First people are in denial, then they are foolish. Again, if you feel you must comment on the people instead of the opinions, it reinforces the feeling that somehow those opinions must make you feel threatened in some way

....
(Underlining added by me)

Pardon me, aren't you doing the same thing? Commenting on poster's mental states instead of sticking to your opinion of the plot?

Has anyone ever considered that what you see as 'feelings' of a romantic nature between Kate and Sawyer might be seen as feelings of friendship to someone else?

Yeah, we have. That's why we've been pointing out what the writers have been saying, the people who know what's really going on, and they don't see it as friendship. But hey, you wanna go on thinking it's friendship, go right ahead. Knock yourself out.

LostNLuvinIt

12-06-2005, 06:36 AM

(Underlining added by me)

Pardon me, aren't you doing the same thing? Commenting on poster's mental states instead of sticking to your opinion of the plot?

Yeah, we have. That's why we've been pointing out what the writers have been saying, the people who know what's really going on, and they don't see it as friendship. But hey, you wanna go on thinking it's friendship, go right ahead. Knock yourself out.

Well thank you for giving your permission for me to hold my own opinions. How enlightened of you.

And I didn't tell anyone that their perceptions of the show suggest they are in denial....just that if you're accusing someone else of it, it's always a good idea to check yourself as well. Fortunately, I don't feel the need to tell others that if their opinions aren't the same as mine that they are in denial or foolish. You read it how you like though.

TRoss

12-06-2005, 06:39 AM

No, we're not foolish or in denial, we just feel "threatened".

Thank you for . . . 'enlightening' me.

:wallbash:

LostNLuvinIt

12-06-2005, 06:44 AM

No, we're not foolish or in denial, we just feel "threatened".

Thank you for . . . 'enlightening' me.

:wallbash:

Well...if you aren't feeling 'threatened' by others not seeing it your way...then why do you feel the need to call people 'foolish' or 'in denial'. My personal experience is that if someone feels the need to insult in that way, they don't feel their arguments are strong enough. I pointed it out because I didn't care for the insults being hurled at people. Don't make it personal and I won't feel the need to question motivations.

banshee

12-06-2005, 06:46 AM

before it goes any further than it should, I'd recommend folks go back to talking about just the characters/show. That way things can remain constructive w/o causing anyone unnecessary stress.

TRoss

12-06-2005, 06:52 AM

DO you think the writers are lying to you?

LostNLuvinIt

12-06-2005, 07:02 AM

DO you think the writers are lying to you?

Do you? I pay close attention to what the writers say, if that helps you...EVERYTHING they say. Then I form my opinions on the whole. I don't quite understand why this is such a big issue with you. I think I explained my position somewhere way back there. I haven't seen you exactly embracing the pro-Jate things the writers have said (i.e., Jack representing Kate's 'real adult love')...so what's the issue if I don't think the skate stuff isn't that big a deal? You put importance on what you deem important, and I put importance on what I deem important.

TRoss

12-06-2005, 07:13 AM

DO you think the writers are lying to you?

LostNLuvinIt

12-06-2005, 07:21 AM

You're repeating yourself.

I never said the writers were lying, I have never indicated anything of the kind....I just think you interpret what they say one way, I interpret it another. It's as simple as that. You will put more weight on certain comments, and I may choose to put more weight on other comments.

This isn't really constructive to the topic, as it has degraded to who believes which things the writers have said, so if you still have problems with my opinions and the statements that I place higher value on, why don't you pm me about it.

TRoss

12-06-2005, 07:40 AM

I NEVER said you said they were lying. I ASKED you if you thought they were. I totally understand you interpret things differently, so do I. That's why we belong to different ships. I was asking you your interpretation of the WRITERS' comments - not what they put on screen. They have said Sawyer and Kate will be part of the love triangle, they will have feelings for each other, but you interpret friendship on the screen.

SO, do you think the writers are lying about Kate and Sawyer having feelings for each other - do you think they are actually just writing a friendship?

LostNLuvinIt

12-06-2005, 08:06 AM

Okay...

Has anyone here ever dated someone that they really cared about, yet it just didn't click as that 'this is all I could ever want' vibe? When I say I don't think Kate has romantic feelings for Sawyer, that doesn't necessarily mean that she won't have any romantic entanglements with him, I just think that at their basis they are together by friendship. I have no doubt the triangle is going to develop...probably even the quadrangle...yet I personally just don't see Kate's feelings for Sawyer being the kind that would sustain a romantic relationship. I don't see it in the way she looks at him. I think eventually Kate is going to heal enough that she is ready for that 'real adult love' that Damon spoke of, and she will move on to it with Jack. I believe a part of Kate will always care about Sawyer...but not in the same way that he cares for her, and I believe that his poor heart is going to be broken eventually. To me, I don't think my interpretations go against anything the writers have said...it just interprets differently than you. And that's what I believe....

I never think the writers are lying...but I do know they will play with words from time to time. A prime example was months ago when Damon said it would be foolish for them to kill off a female character since they had so few. Now, a lot of people took that to mean that it wasn't going to be a female who died....me? I saw that he just carefully chose his words to make it appear it wouldn't be a female....yet he never exactly said that. That's why I say there is always room for interpretation, even when it's the words of the writers. Ambiguity is one of their strong points, I think they must take a class in it.

bobbinghead1

12-06-2005, 10:18 PM

lisagwilkins

12-06-2005, 11:07 PM

In my opinion, Kate should be with Jack, not Sawyer, especially since we now know that Sawyer reminds her of Wayne. Now, don't get me wrong here, I love Sawyer and his snarky one-liners, but I can't forget how he ratted her out in front of almost everyone last season so he could keep his place on the raft. Is that love? No. I'd call it selfishness, in fact.

Jack, on the other hand, seems to treat her with care and respect. Whenever he has questions he tends to go talk with her one-on-one about it instead of pointing his finger at her in front of everyone. Is that love? Maybe yes, maybe no, but their relationship is healthier than hers with Sawyer because of their mutual care and respect for each other.

Both men, however, have some serious issues from their past, as does Kate, and I seriously doubt that any relationship that's initiated now between Kate and either of the men could work until those problems have been individually resolved.

You're right about his ratting her out to the other survivors, but we must remember why he did it. Sawyer did it so that he could have a place on the raft. To get away, yes, but also because his sacrificing himself would allow everyone else to be rescued, or at least that's what they all thought. And, we also have to remember his conversation on the raft with Michael when they talked about his being a hero or having a death wish, and what did he say? He said, "I ain't no hero, Mike."

It wasn't until he almost died on the way in from the other side of the island with the tailies when he realized he had something to live for. Remeber what he said to Kate, when they were talking about why he was going on the raft. He said, "because there ain't nuthin' here worth stayin' for." He didn't realize that she was worth stayin' for until he started that trek through the jungle. Why do you think they island led them home....because that's where all of them are supposed to be.

Unfortunately, sometimes what is healthiest for someone is not what they gravitate too. I know for myself if I were given the choice between the gorgeous, dangerous, scary less-than-honorable guy who looks like he'd rip out my throat given half the chance and the handsome, heroic, save your life and not break a sweat doctor, I would take the dangerous one every day of the week and twice on Sunday! Danger and thrills are what a lot of us lean toward, especially when we have been the "good" girl all our lives. What did the marshall say to Kate? Why? Why now, nice, wholesome, Iowa farm girl, straight A's, why now Kate? (True, he was talking about her committing murder, but the principle still applies.) We cannot control what we are drawn to, however, in order for Kate's relationship with either Sawyer or Jack to go anywhere, the issues in her past have to be resolved. For our dear darlin' Sawyer, his issues must be resolved too or he can't go forward with whoever he should be with, be it Kate or whomever.

That's why I don't think anything is going to come of this relationship, triangle, quarangle or whatever it's called until at least the bottom of Season 3....might even make for a good clifhanger.

Huggs y'all,
Lisa :cool:

banshee

12-07-2005, 09:56 AM

I still believe Kate's obsession of being good is going to be a downfall for the relationship of Kate and Jack. She has to take Jack as Jack not a replacement for her good daddy or Tom or her ticket to being good.

I, as a Skater, see Sawyer and Kate has the most potential, Kate falls for Sawyer even though she's avoiding it. Of all the relationships on lost, theirs has grown the most and it's obviously much more than friendship. Their relationship is not the everyday hero and heroine story and that's what makes it special but I believe criminals and con men are just as capable of love as doctors and lawyers. I can see the potential of a loving romantic relationship between these 2 over time.

It's a really a matter of personal preference. So try to take these comments as difference of opinions rather than personal attacks would help.

And TRoss I do believe the writers when they say there is love triangle and Kate is torn between 2 men. They are the masterminds behind all these relationship, they are the ones who make us believe in our Skate, so I don't think they would lie about these things.

The same could be said conversely for Kate/Sawyer because if she sees Wayne in him, & it's not in a bad way but instead something that will help her heal, Sawyer is as much of Kate's "ticket" to redemption as Jack. I think to reduce either Jack or Sawyer down to being just reflections of each of her fathers, would be to oversimplify what each can give Kate.

I find uniqueness in JK's relationship precisely because they haven't run in the same circles. I've never seen a doctor/criminal as a pair & I think it's reflective of the show's theme as a whole-indiscriminatory love/friendships. Ppl of stereotype/race, who normally wouldn't have been together, are being opened up to what those interactions offer. It makes us realize how myopic our worldview is & what we're missing out on when exposed to variety. And in that regard it can help us grow & expand our life experience.

Really Kate is an anti-hero so I don't find her & Jack being leads to negate the specialness of their dynamic. I like who I do regardless of their status.

Personally I don't believe good=boring or uninteresting anymore than bad boy=all bad. I've found Jack to have passion, probably more than most, & he's been impulsive/ spontaneous as well as flawed. It's his core values & dedication to you which are steady. In a time of crisis or uncertainty, that can be a welcomed thing. Someone to count on when the world is falling apart as he was there for Kate in WKD.

If Kate can't be redeemed then she's a lost cause which I don't believe for her or Sawyer. You have to work to reach that place, being w/someone won't do it for you. Imo Jack challenges Kate's status quo & supports her as she finds her own way. Love can be transformative but it can't "fix" you. It can, however, inspire you & help you heal.

LostNLuvinIt

12-07-2005, 12:18 PM

I still believe Kate's obsession of being good is going to be a downfall for the relationship of Kate and Jack. She has to take Jack as Jack not a replacement for her good daddy or Tom or her ticket to being good.

I, as a Skater, see Sawyer and Kate has the most potential, Kate falls for Sawyer even though she's avoiding it. Of all the relationships on lost, theirs has grown the most and it's obviously much more than friendship. Their relationship is not the everyday hero and heroine story and that's what makes it special but I believe criminals and con men are just as capable of love as doctors and lawyers. I can see the potential of a loving romantic relationship between these 2 over time.

It's a really a matter of personal preference. So try to take these comments as difference of opinions rather than personal attacks would help.

And TRoss I do believe the writers when they say there is love triangle and Kate is torn between 2 men. They are the masterminds behind all these relationship, they are the ones who make us believe in our Skate, so I don't think they would lie about these things.

I think some of our differences break down into the different perceptions we have of Kate...and I've noticed this before from comments others have made. I don't presume to speak for other skaters or Jaters by saying that all skates believe as you, or all Jates believe as I...but here is where you and I personally seem to go separate ways as to what is 'best' for Kate, it's in our perceptions of who the real Kate might be.

You seem to think, if I'm reading correctly, that Kate is obsessed with being good...thereby fighting with herself over who she really is and denying her true 'bad' self because she views it as 'wrong' or 'socially unacceptable'. I see the opposite...I see Kate as truly being good at heart, but she is defining herself by her gene pool and therefore believes she is predisposed to be 'bad' regardless of what is in her heart. She wants the 'good' life, but believes the Wayneness in her has condemned her to a life without it. I want to see her overcome judging herself by her father and become the person she lost when she learned her true paternity.

That's where my desire to see her with Jack comes into play. I see in Jack the qualities that others who have hurt her in the past lacked....he offers her support and trust, things which we now see she lacked even from her own family. She's given him reasons not to trust her, but he keeps coming back and giving her another clean slate....he sees the good in her when most people can't see beyond her 'criminal' label. Jack would never write her off the way they did....he is Mr. Commitment, and I think someone with Kate's 'flight' instinct needs someone very grounded to keep them on path.

Jinx

12-07-2005, 01:58 PM

You're right about his ratting her out to the other survivors, but we must remember why he did it. Sawyer did it so that he could have a place on the raft.

I realize why he ratted her out. I was just stating that Jack would have never done that to Kate. Instead, he would have spoken to her in private to clear things up.

To get away, yes, but also because his sacrificing himself would allow everyone else to be rescued, or at least that's what they all thought.

My take on this was that he wanted off the island so he could hunt down and kill the real Sawyer. In my mind, rescuing everyone else takes a back seat to what he's been trying to accomplish for years.

Unfortunately, sometimes what is healthiest for someone is not what they gravitate too. I know for myself if I were given the choice between the gorgeous, dangerous, scary less-than-honorable guy who looks like he'd rip out my throat given half the chance and the handsome, heroic, save your life and not break a sweat doctor, I would take the dangerous one every day of the week and twice on Sunday! Danger and thrills are what a lot of us lean toward, especially when we have been the "good" girl all our lives.

I agree with you here that we sometimes go for the wrong choice. For instance, I have a long list of "bad boy" ex-boyfriends that I dated, but the man I married is more like Jack and I've been happily married now for close to 8 years. I'm fairly certain that if I would have ended up marrying one of the "Sawyers" that I dated all those years ago, my marriage would have ended up in a divorce.

We cannot control what we are drawn to, however, in order for Kate's relationship with either Sawyer or Jack to go anywhere, the issues in her past have to be resolved. For our dear darlin' Sawyer, his issues must be resolved too or he can't go forward with whoever he should be with, be it Kate or whomever.

I agree. They each need to conquer their own "demons" before they can move on.

That's why I don't think anything is going to come of this relationship, triangle, quarangle or whatever it's called until at least the bottom of Season 3....might even make for a good clifhanger.

I hope we won't have to wait that long.:biggrin:

~Jinx

arias_decamp

12-07-2005, 02:04 PM

Unfortunately, sometimes what is healthiest for someone is not what they gravitate too. I know for myself if I were given the choice between the gorgeous, dangerous, scary less-than-honorable guy who looks like he'd rip out my throat given half the chance and the handsome, heroic, save your life and not break a sweat doctor, I would take the dangerous one every day of the week and twice on Sunday! Danger and thrills are what a lot of us lean toward, especially when we have been the "good" girl all our lives.

I fail to see the logic in that.

Elyagmb

12-07-2005, 02:17 PM

I think Kate & Sawyer.... Jack seems to messed up to be part of a "couple"

LostNLuvinIt

12-07-2005, 02:29 PM

I think Kate & Sawyer.... Jack seems to messed up to be part of a "couple"

Jack seems too messed up? Have 'ya taken a good look at any of those people? Sawyer is ready to travel to the ends of the earth to kill the man who conned his parents...a man who's name he took, and he craves being tortured because in some twisted way it is torturing 'Sawyer'. He hoards things because it forces people to come to him when they want things...sort of his own form of initiating communication. Kate robbed a bank to get a toy airplane, she sees her abusive, perverted father in Sawyer, she killed that same father apparently because she just couldn't stand that he is a part of her. And Jack is too messed up?

As someone else said...they all have a long way to go, and healing to go through, before they are ready to settle into a real relationship.

Luanne

12-07-2005, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Elyagmb
I think Kate & Sawyer.... Jack seems to messed up to be part of a "couple"

You could also make the same case for Sawyer.As LostNLuvinIt said above Sawyer obviously has some issues to work with through. Jack on the other hand also has his fair share of problems to work through also. I think that before Kate and Sawyer and eventually before Jack and Kate get together they all have serious issues to work through.First you have the Kate and Sawyer relationship. As someone who supports them as a couple I am curious as to how they are going to get together given what Kate confessed in the last episode and I think its going to be interesting on Sawyer part because maybe Kate will be the first women he will trust. I also will find it interesting how Jack and Kate will help each other in their relationship because I think whatever happened between Jack and his wife is obviously holding him back in his actions towards Kate. Clearly all three of these people have their own separate issues to work through before coming together in whatever relationships they form.

bobbinghead1

12-07-2005, 08:17 PM

I am not here to convince anyone that one couple is better than the other, I am here to express my personal preference and feelings about which I think is a better couple and that's Skate.

With either Sawyer/Kate and Kate/Jack relationship, they obviously have different demons to overcome. But I think it's unfair for us to judge Kate has more feelings towards one man than another. I think she has feelings for both men and we would just have to wait to see how the story plays out..

Melt 4 Jack

12-08-2005, 02:18 AM

I think Kate will explore a relationship with Sawyer in the short term, just to see if there's really anything there beside trying to overcome past demons. Even though it will probably be the hardest thing he's ever done, Jack will step back and not try to interfere with the relationship. He'll be respectful because that's his character. Sawyer will fall for Kate, but she'll realize that her love lies with another. Kate will "run" to Jack signalling her own transformation. She'll finally be running to something instead of away from her past. Jack and Kate will be together in the long run. Good thing I like marathons.

bobbinghead1

12-08-2005, 06:26 PM

However this is played out, I hope they would have a really good storyline to support it without destroying the integrity of the show as well as the characters.

Melt 4 Jack

12-08-2005, 07:07 PM

However this is played out, I hope they would have a really good storyline to support it without destroying the integrity of the show as well as the characters.

Well look at that, we agree on something!

bobbinghead1

12-08-2005, 08:28 PM

Well look at that, we agree on something!
I think there is at least 1 thing we agree on. We agree that Lost is a good show with many good characters, with relationships so intriguing that we spend probably more time than we should dicussing or debating which is a better couple and who should hook up with whom.

LOL, I guess the writers have get us all hooked to the show and its characters afterall.

CarrieICL

12-08-2005, 10:49 PM

Thought I'd add something to this discussion that I posted on another forum.

Really, Jate versus Skate has to do with how you view what a relationship should be.

Kate is at war with her demons. She wants to be "good". She thinks she's inherently "bad" and there's nothing she can do about it. In reality, things just aren't that simple, as most of us know -- if things were just good and bad, life would be significantly less complicated. To quote Sondheim, there are rights and wrongs and inbetweens. There's grey. No one is bad or good depending on how they were raised or what blood flows in their veins -- those things only influence the choices we make, and it's the choices we make that determine our moral fiber, which links them, but correlation doesn't equal causation. There's things we can do that will never have excuses, but will always have reasons, and we all learn in life how to deal with those hard lessons.

Now, given that.

From where I'm standing, Kate can't handle the grey from where she is right now. Kate is running. Kate has spent her whole life running, figuratively or literally. And, given the givens, that's understandable. She's stuck in Good/Bad and Black/White mindset, not unlike Jack -- probably why they connected right off the bat. Now, Kate thinks she's in the Bad column.

I don't believe for a minute that Jack would turn away from her if he knew the whole story. Quite the opposite -- Jack, if he heard her story, would justify it all and try and put her in the Good column. I can easily see him telling her "It's okay, you were young, you made a spur of the moment mistake" -- and glossing over the whole premeditation bit. Jack wouldn't necessarily try to change Kate -- but the fact of the matter is, Kate would try and change herself for Jack. Kate already has tried to change herself for Jack.

Sawyer... Sawyer sees grey, or at least, I think he would with things concerning Kate (less for himself, but that's a whole 'nother thesis). Certainly Kate has never felt the need to change herself for him. With regards to her past, Sawyer wouldn't condemn her or give her absolution -- and at the moment, she wants one or the other (subconciously, she wants someone to comfort her and tell her it was all okay; consciously, she wants someone to emotionally beat up on her the way she's beating up on herself). But what she wants isn't what she needs, and damn if relationships aren't sneaky like that.

Being with Sawyer might allow Kate to come to terms with herself and her past. Being with Jack might allow Kate to become the person she aspires to be.

One of the key things about this show is the importance of realism. Anyone can write a character into a situation, or create a plot. The key, the part that really sells Lost is how believable these people are. So it's unspeakably important that things more or less play out in a realistic way.

I can say that in my experience, in real life, no relationship will ever make you what you want to be. No relationship will fix you, or let you "choose" the kind of person you are. No healthy, lasting relationship will let you shut off some part of yourself, even the ugly bits that you want to rip out of your body and bury in a deep hole. No relationship will make you better.

But a good, healthy relationship can, if you let it, allow you to learn to accept the person you are.

Thus... Skate.

Entirely my two cents, which is more than you should really pay for armchair psychology.

banshee

12-08-2005, 11:57 PM

very good analysis Carrie. :)

I agree love can't fix you, but it can be transformative. And by that I don't mean changing who you are at the core, but rather that it can open you up to new ways of thinking/experiences & take you to new heights...There's a saying "If you're the same in 5 yrs it's 5 yrs wasted."

I think Kate is a good person who was pushed to extremes & regrets her decisions deeply which tells me who she is now, is not the real her per se. And that's where I think JK/KSsers differ in opinion. I believe Kate has been running from herself, by circumstance, & by the negative self perceptions Wayne imprinted upon her...A corn fed farm girl, straight A's w/no prior record sounds a lot like Jack. Someone who tried to compensate for the lack of parent's love by accomplishment. She too had an alcoholic father who repressed her whether by emotional/sexually implied abuse. So I think it's more accurate to say Jack & Sawyer each understand different parts of Kate.

Personally speaking, I come from an "opposites" attract parents who have been happily married for 39yrs. Similar enough to have common ground, but different enough to challenge, encourage, & temper things in the other. They balance each other out... I don't think Jack has actively sought to change Kate, what he has done is tried to instill upon her you can't change the past, but you can take responsibility for who you are now. You can reach your potential. I find that encouraging & if Kate's status quo isn't challenged, I don't see how she can grow.

Jack holds Kate accountable for her choices, but she's been too complacent about that. In all fairness, she has lied/used him. However, he has still supported her & let her know he's there for her. It can't get anymore unconditional than when he's told she's a killer after he's been betrayed, & he is the one who reaches out the olive branch. He is willing to make concessions for her.

So imo, Jate has a healthy basis & holds promise for something that can endure.

AFaithL

12-09-2005, 01:37 AM

SKATE! Sawyer and Kate have fire and passion!

Jack looks at her with "big brother eyes". I agree with Evangeline Lilly!

Melt 4 Jack

12-09-2005, 02:31 AM

Sawyer... Sawyer sees grey, or at least, I think he would with things concerning Kate (less for himself, but that's a whole 'nother thesis).

So, if black and white is a recurring theme in the show, what does that mean for Sawyer seeing grey as opposed to Jack seeing black and white in regard to Kate?

LostNLuvinIt

12-09-2005, 08:00 AM

CarrieICL

12-09-2005, 08:50 AM

Great analysis. However, I still think much of the debate boils down (as I said previously) to differing perceptions of Kate. You base your analysis on your perception that Kate tries to change for Jack, and that's how you arrive at her belonging with Sawyer...because you say she doesn't have to change for Sawyer. My perception is that Kate is actually more her real self when she's with Jack...the self that she lost when she went on the run. She doesn't have her 'criminal defense system' up with him, and he allows her to find her old self again. So, in that sense...she isn't changing for Jack, she's rediscovering parts of her she thought she had lost. That isn't changing...that's growing...and it's a healthy relationship that encourages growth.

I see where you're going with that, and it makes sense. However, here's my thing -- there is Old Kate (that is, pre-crimes, corn-fed farmgirl, somewhat melancholy type) and New Kate (the girl on the run). When Kate is with Jack, she seems to go two different directions -- she's one or the other. Either she behaves as Old Kate, the good girl (volunteering to go off into the jungle, being sort of co-administrator, etc.), or she behaves as New Kate (the events of WTCMB). But she strikes me as always consciously making a decision about how she's going to behave.

The problem is, there's just one Kate. And both those parts of her have to co-exist. I've never seen a scene where they co-exist for Jack -- never a scene where she's being both honest and relaxed. But in Outlaws, the "I Never" scene really, to me, highlighted the real person that Kate is. And she showed that to Sawyer.

In addition, there are a number of times that Kate has lied to or deliberately manipulated Jack (again, see WTCMB, being vague about the air marshal in the Pilot, the poisoning in Born to Run). Are those all times that it makes sense to lie or manipulate? Sure. I'm not saying they aren't. But it certainly means that Kate isn't being honest with Jack. At the same time, those little lies and manipulations have never happened with Sawyer, with the exception of the very beginning of WTCMB (and the "I don't care, keep the case" is such an utterly transparent lie that, really, it hardly counts). Instead, his questions are usually answered, even when they don't have to be (Outlaws) or met with stony silence (more times than I could reasonably site). But she doesn't manipulate him -- and whether it's because she can't (he's too experienced for that) or because she won't, it's very telling.

There's tons of examples to site, but the most important ones, to me, are the "I Never" scene in Outlaws versus the hiding of the Halliburton key in WTCMB. Opposites can attract, but dishonesty is... well, a bad sign.

LostNLuvinIt

12-09-2005, 09:41 AM

I see where you're going with that, and it makes sense. However, here's my thing -- there is Old Kate (that is, pre-crimes, corn-fed farmgirl, somewhat melancholy type) and New Kate (the girl on the run). When Kate is with Jack, she seems to go two different directions -- she's one or the other. Either she behaves as Old Kate, the good girl (volunteering to go off into the jungle, being sort of co-administrator, etc.), or she behaves as New Kate (the events of WTCMB). But she strikes me as always consciously making a decision about how she's going to behave.

The problem is, there's just one Kate. And both those parts of her have to co-exist. I've never seen a scene where they co-exist for Jack -- never a scene where she's being both honest and relaxed. But in Outlaws, the "I Never" scene really, to me, highlighted the real person that Kate is. And she showed that to Sawyer.

In addition, there are a number of times that Kate has lied to or deliberately manipulated Jack (again, see WTCMB, being vague about the air marshal in the Pilot, the poisoning in Born to Run). Are those all times that it makes sense to lie or manipulate? Sure. I'm not saying they aren't. But it certainly means that Kate isn't being honest with Jack. At the same time, those little lies and manipulations have never happened with Sawyer, with the exception of the very beginning of WTCMB (and the "I don't care, keep the case" is such an utterly transparent lie that, really, it hardly counts). Instead, his questions are usually answered, even when they don't have to be (Outlaws) or met with stony silence (more times than I could reasonably site). But she doesn't manipulate him -- and whether it's because she can't (he's too experienced for that) or because she won't, it's very telling.

There's tons of examples to site, but the most important ones, to me, are the "I Never" scene in Outlaws versus the hiding of the Halliburton key in WTCMB. Opposites can attract, but dishonesty is... well, a bad sign.

We also seem to have differing opinions on Kate being able to manipulate Jack. The very same key scene you mention from WTCMB....Jack knew she was lying to him from the moment she approached him, it was easy to see from his cautious responses and hesitant answers, as well as the way he looked at her. She has rarely tried to pull anything over on him, because she doesn't want that between them, and she wants Jack's trust...but he has done just as well as Sawyer at knowing when she's up to something. She's actually not good at lying to Jack...she gets a sheepish demeanor every time she tries. She doesn't typically get sheepish when lying to anyone else....so I believe that also is very telling. Kate lied to Sawyer about whether she was trying to get his spot on the raft, she lied to him about the case and even tried to steal it from him. In fact, her trying to steal from him and her trying to oust him from the raft are two of the examples of them constantly trying to best each other...which comes off as more of a rivalry to me than it does of the makings of a relationship, and I don't find it to be all that healthy. Dishonesty comes in more forms than outright lying...and Sawyer has gotten his share of it too, so I don't find it to be a deciding factor.

Again...I think it comes down to perception of Kate, and who the 'real Kate' is inside. I see her actually being herself when she's with Jack....and I think she's missed being that person, as seen from her flashbacks and how she was practically dead inside from the life she had been living.

CarrieICL

12-09-2005, 09:51 AM

Jack knew she was lying to him from the moment she approached him, it was easy to see from his cautious responses and hesitant answers, as well as the way he looked at her. ... She's actually not good at lying to Jack...she gets a sheepish demeanor every time she tries. She doesn't typically get sheepish when lying to anyone else....so I believe that also is very telling.

Oh, I'm not saying that Jack can't see that she's lying... but still, she tries, when she doesn't try with Sawyer. And she does get more sheepish with Jack than, say, Charlie. I don't argue that Jack doesn't mean more to her than most of the people on the island... except Sawyer.

Kate lied to Sawyer about whether she was trying to get his spot on the raft, she lied to him about the case and even tried to steal it from him.

She wasn't trying to get his spot on the raft. She was trying to get Jin's spot. All she told Sawyer was "If I wanted your spot, I'd have it" -- which was taken as a threat, when it wasn't. Actually, I think it was her lashing out because he'd brought up the criminal thing. Kate's not above that, certainly. And I covered the case lie above (namely, that it was an incredibly bad lie), and she tried to steal it -- openly, without shame. She didn't try and manipulate it out of him, the way she did with Jack.

Again...I think it comes down to perception of Kate, and who the 'real Kate' is inside. I see her actually being herself when she's with Jack....and I think she's missed being that person, as seen from her flashbacks and how she was practically dead inside from the life she had been living.

She doesn't laugh much with him. I'm wary of relationships where you don't laugh.

banshee

12-09-2005, 11:34 AM

Oh, I'm not saying that Jack can't see that she's lying... but still, she tries, when she doesn't try with Sawyer. And she does get more sheepish with Jack than, say, Charlie. I don't argue that Jack doesn't mean more to her than most of the people on the island... except Sawyer.
She tried to fool Sawyer about the meaning of the case to her, & lied about it being hers so he'd pull it out from under the seat which he did.

The problem is, there's just one Kate. And both those parts of her have to co-exist. I've never seen a scene where they co-exist for Jack -- never a scene where she's being both honest and relaxed. But in Outlaws, the "I Never" scene really, to me, highlighted the real person that Kate is. And she showed that to Sawyer.

Ppl by nature don't show all the sides of themselves all the time. You behave a certain way at work, as opposed to how you do w/family. And day/situation pending those things change....Even in the I Never game which some consider honest/light hearted, she became tense when she realized Sawyer knew. It's hard to be happy go lucky when you're discussing things which are serious to you...Kate is also just as much the vulnerable person who broke down to Jack in the jungle & tries to be tougher than she is.

I think a good i.e of co-existing Kate w/Jack is him making a passing joke about her drugging him...It was classic "bad" Kate, but he didn't make a deal of it...And it may not be the same day, but in WTCMB she had just betrayed Jack & told him she was a killer, yet in HM he was talking to her & giving her things.

She doesn't laugh much with him. I'm wary of relationships where you don't laugh
I don't agree she doesn't laugh as much w/Jack...The situations JK have been in have often been of serious nature, but if you consider moments "light hearted"- the pilot fireside chat, "huntin boar", the tatoo banter, "checking me out", the sling scene, golf in Solitary, "sinking", "gross greyish things", "seeds", glasses exam, "I didn't do it for him", shower scene, dinner scene, playing golf again etc.

I've actually found JK to have a good mix of being able to go through the tough experiences together as well as enjoy each other's company.

sheba

12-09-2005, 12:07 PM

LostNLuvinIt

12-09-2005, 12:32 PM

She wasn't trying to get his spot on the raft. She was trying to get Jin's spot. All she told Sawyer was "If I wanted your spot, I'd have it" -- which was taken as a threat, when it wasn't. Actually, I think it was her lashing out because he'd brought up the criminal thing. Kate's not above that, certainly. And I covered the case lie above (namely, that it was an incredibly bad lie), and she tried to steal it -- openly, without shame. She didn't try and manipulate it out of him, the way she did with Jack.

Yes she did try to get his spot on the raft...she went to Michael and tried to sell him on the fact that she would be more valuable to them at sea than Sawyer would. That is what tipped Sawyer off that she wanted it....and she denied knowing what he was talking about when he confronted her. She doesn't try lying to Sawyer that often, imo, because she uses other tactics to get around it...such as trying to steal the case while he was sleeping. As I said before...dishonesty takes other forms than outright lying at times....she tries to play Sawyer as much as she tries to play anyone, she just goes about it differently.

She doesn't laugh much with him. I'm wary of relationships where you don't laugh.
As Banshee pointed out, most of the scenes we have seen Kate and Jack in are not the sort that laughter would be appropriate, they are not in a situation that lends itself well to indulging in fun and games all the time. Still, we have seen them in lighthearted moments, having fun together, being very natural together hanging out. I would say it's right to be wary of relationships where you don't laugh....but Jack and Kate's relationship is not one of those so it's a moot point. I could name a number of scenes where she was laughing with Jack.

Your arguments are very good...based on your perceptions. I don't agree with many of your perceptions though, so I cannot reach the same conclusions. Only time will tell if either of us perceives it the way it is intended.

banshee

12-09-2005, 02:29 PM

IMO, which is a "better" couple is pretty subjective.

I don't think it's a question of which is a better couple. They are both completely different couples. Apples and oranges. It is a question of which couple you prefer to watch, and which pairing you feel adds to or balances the the show better. (which of course is also a very subjective thing)

Kate with Jack would be (IMO) a much more cerebral and quiet couple. Whereas Kate with Sawyer is going to be much more volitile and firey. (please note that I did not claim that either description would apply to every second of the relationship)

To me, Kate with Sawyer offers what I would like to see, to balance the already cerebral things going on, on the island of mystery.

I feel there is more potential for surprise suspense with Kate/Sawyer. Even if you believed they were desperately in love with one another, you could never be quite sure how they would act in a given situation. You wouldn't be able to count on love conquering all, or him being the noble knight in shining armor, or her standing by her man if things got tough. Every reaction would be like a mini cliff hanger.

With Kate/Jack, I don't feel like they could do anything to surprise me. No matter what happens, in the end Jack will always be noble and forgive her in the end. He will always try to take on as much as possible himself. She will always try to impose herself into his space a little further than he is completely comfortable with. Nothing wrong with a relationship like that. It's just not one I find interesting to watch. Obviously millions of others disagree with me, or daytime soap operas wouldn't be so popular.

I agree it is a very subjective thing.

I think JK's relationship is reflective of a marriage which I see as positive. Marriage ,imo, is a journey on which a couple's love is strong enough to weather the storms & grow together. Someone whom you love so deeply, that you want to spend the rest of your life w/them.. I think you need to have that security the person will be there through thick & thin.. That's hopeful to me because there isn't enough of it today. So if these 2 can endure what they have & still want to be together, I think it speaks volumes.

Their relationship has been full of surprises imo. Their pairing alone of a doctor & criminal is not stereotypical. And they have the "forbidden" love which adds romance/ excitement. I also enjoy the ying/yang balancing dynamic..But as you said, what is exhilarating to one is not so to the other. For i.e. I find (watching) golf (not JK ;) ) boring yet that's not the case for everyone.

Jack & Kate can both be very passionate w/each other, & they may be quieter in the sense they're not as volatile, but I don't think volatility= spontaneity. They've had their disagreements, & seem to get through them, but I haven't been able to predict a lot of moments in their relationship. For one they're not in normal circumstances. They've encountered monsters, dead bodies, being held at gunpoint, buried in cave-ins, "ghosts", being drugged etc. & I never saw seeds, tattoo banter, that hug in Moth, or even arguing over carrying the dynamite coming.

I've found them satisfying on many levels-action, romance, philosophy, their emotional/intellectual interaction etc... Maybe it's because I feel life is crazy enough as it is that I'm drawn to those relationships which can have the element where nothing needs to be said & they're satisfied w/just being in one another's presence. Peace as well as passion.

bobbinghead1

12-09-2005, 08:44 PM

She doesn't laugh much with him. I'm wary of relationships where you don't laugh.
I love you for this. Your analsis is great and very insightful. Go Skate go!!!

banshee

12-09-2005, 08:48 PM

As we pntd out though, Kate has laughed/smiled many times w/Jack. I'm not seeing where she has done so excessively w/Sawyer in comparison. They've both had their moments imo.

thedeadmarshall1

12-09-2005, 10:27 PM

It's really between Kate and Sawyer or Kate and me...About time for some wild island sex.

Bescky

12-15-2005, 09:02 AM

Wild island sex? Now that's funny. But seriously I agree with CarrieICL about she doesn't seem to laugh around Jack. That's why I love SKate so much.

HurleyHair

12-15-2005, 09:43 AM

Jack and Jin

(Sorry Sun, U wanted to ditch him anyway.)

and

Kate and Ana

There.
:cool:

LostFan710

12-15-2005, 02:57 PM

Kate and Sawyer, For Jack maybe Sun... They could have cute kids maybe!

ERIN_28

12-15-2005, 03:25 PM

Kate and Sawyer!
Jack and Ana!

Melt 4 Jack

12-15-2005, 09:58 PM

I think Sawyer and Ana have a lot of potential as a couple.

Jack is not gay.

sapphic16

12-16-2005, 07:08 AM

personality-wise. i think kate and sawyer are a better couple. just want to add my opinion..even though the poll is over..:blush:

AFaithL

01-13-2006, 06:56 PM

Sawyer!

Swan

02-04-2006, 10:11 AM

I think Kate and Sawyer have more potential for storyline material than Kate and Jack do. I think the latter would end up being too stereotypical or predictable.

SaucyPotato

02-04-2006, 10:23 AM

I think Kate and Sawyer have more potential for storyline material than Kate and Jack do. I think the latter would end up being too stereotypical or predictable.

Kate and Sawyer are SO similar; they understand eachother, which is *so* important, especially for people like them with pasts like theirs. I really think that Sawyer NEEDS to be with Kate to be redeemed (or just in general - I just like saying 'redeemed':redface:) and that Kate could really be happy with him.

HOWEVER:

Kate and Jack sort of complete eachother (stereotypical but common in love and very sweet to see). I actually think that JAck may not have too much hope for happiness if he doesn't have Kate. I don't think Ana and he make a very good match at all.

I am SO torn; I'll be leaning towards Sawyer/Kate and something will snap inside me to remind me of Jack/Kate.... I fear that the only solution is to draw the
Triangle (now Square) out until someone dies.... most likely Kate.:cry::frown:

banshee

02-04-2006, 04:58 PM

I think Kate and Sawyer have more potential for storyline material than Kate and Jack do. I think the latter would end up being too stereotypical or predictable.
It's actually Jack and Kate's differences where I find the room for the most self discovery & character growth. When you juxtapose varying perspectives, experiences, & philosophies is where myopic viewpoints are broadened & more avenues of exploration are created. Jack & Kate are a smaller representation of what is happening with the castaways as a whole. Everyone comes from a unique background & they were each stuck in their lives unable to get anywhere. It's been interacting with each other that has helped them to move forward,

I don't anything stereotypical or predictable about a doc/criminal pairing. That's pretty rare & provides an ample amount of interest imo.

My personal feeling is that you need to be with someone who will take you to your heights of potential & open you up to things. That's what provides the most fulfillment in love and life, imo. I think Jack & Kate do that for one another.

irish lost fan

02-04-2006, 05:00 PM

Both couples are annoying but i'd have to say its less annoying when Kate is with Sawyer.

jenrae06

02-04-2006, 05:11 PM

Kate and Jack....Kate and Jack....Kate and Jack....Kate and Jack:)

Arcane

02-04-2006, 05:30 PM

Kate and Sawyer ALL THE WAY gogogogo skate!!

LostFan_Jamie

02-04-2006, 08:29 PM

Kate And Sawyer!

wildjinx

02-04-2006, 09:51 PM

Jack and Kate!

TRoss

02-05-2006, 03:01 PM

Sawyer and Kate!

Aaron C

02-06-2006, 12:14 PM

Sawyer and Kate!

I'm with ya on that one, T ! :D

Ghost963

02-06-2006, 01:50 PM

Sawyer and Kate!
Can i get an hell yeah?! I think so!! :smile:

No man is worth your tears (http://lost-media.com/modules/coppermine/albums/ep-caps/season1/1x12-thecase/normal_thecase847.jpg) Kate! And the one who is won't make you cry (http://lost-media.com/modules/coppermine/albums/ep-caps/season1/1x12-thecase/normal_thecase050.jpg)! Cliche I know, but so true!

JacksPatient

02-06-2006, 02:11 PM

Jack and Kate!
:thumbup: Gotta agree with Jinxy. Jate is beautiful.

banshee

02-06-2006, 06:21 PM

Can i get an hell yeah?! I think so!! :smile:

No man is worth your tears (http://lost-media.com/modules/coppermine/albums/ep-caps/season1/1x12-thecase/normal_thecase847.jpg) Kate! And the one who is won't make you cry (http://lost-media.com/modules/coppermine/albums/ep-caps/season1/1x12-thecase/normal_thecase050.jpg)! Cliche I know, but so true!
Jack has also comforted her when she had tears she needed to shed such as in WKD. You can't get through pain until you go through it. Re:the scene you referenced, he had been betrayed/used to get the case so had reason to suspect she may be lying. In all fairness, this is not unlike how Sawyer responded in BTR..In addition, Jack had no way of knowing the emotional signficance the plane had to her. He gave her seeds to make her feel better as an apology instead of standing on his pride. And this was after hearing she was a killer as a well.

Zatherran

02-06-2006, 06:47 PM

I am sorry here, but Kate and Jack is the best choice!
Sawyer only offers her grief. and if i am right.
she is graviating to him because she knows how to handle him.
He doesnt change her!
but we know she needs changes. she needs to hear someone say
"you are ok, you are not bad"
my heart say she is not guility for what happened to wayne.
I believe she is covering for someone. anyway
all IMO

Ghost963

02-06-2006, 09:06 PM

Jack has also comforted her when she had tears she needed to shed such as in WKD. You can't get through pain until you go through it. Re:the scene you referenced, he had been betrayed/used to get the case so had reason to suspect she may be lying. In all fairness, this is not unlike how Sawyer responded in BTR..In addition, Jack had no way of knowing the emotional signficance the plane had to her. He gave her seeds to make her feel better as an apology instead of standing on his pride. And this was after hearing she was a killer as a well.
The only comforting Jack did in WKD was get kissed due to Kate's sleep deprivation. And Kate cried in What the Case May Be because Jack was yelling at her!

I'm sorry, but I have to go with Sawyer. Similar minds and whatnot... :smile:

banshee

02-06-2006, 09:15 PM

The only comforting Jack did in WKD was get kissed due to Kate's sleep deprivation. And Kate cried in What the Case May Be because Jack was yelling at her!

I'm sorry, but I have to go with Sawyer. Similar minds and whatnot... :smile:Jack embraced her & told her it would be ok so obviously there was more comforting that just a kiss.

To suggest the only reason Kate cried in WTCMB was because Jack got upset would mean that she had no remorse or regret over what happened to Tom. That was the first time she had the plane in her possession since the Marshal took it away.

Claudia815

02-06-2006, 09:56 PM

Ghost963

02-06-2006, 10:42 PM

Um. I don't think we're gonna settle this one anytime soon. :p

One of the things I love most about LOST is the journey it takes us on along with the characters. It really feels like these people are constantly growing and... going somewhere. And from that point of view, no matter how fun/cutsey/hot it might be, Sawyer/Kate doesn't make any sense in the long run. And it's kind of... unhealthy.

I'm a big Sawyer fan and I really want to see him develop more, ie. out of the Triangle of our discontent.
Well said Claudia. I think this is just a thread for outKaSts and Jaters to go head to head and it's kinda pointless. I'll admit that Kate was crying for more reasons than Jack yelling at her :smile: No worries for everyone! *throws hands up*

TRoss

02-07-2006, 02:44 AM

I know the choice in relationships is as uncontrollable as one's taste in wine, but there is room for clarification and discussion. Where one side may not understand the other, it never hurts to explain and clarify a position. Without explanation, there is only assumption. While we will most likely never convince each other that our position is 'the best', we can at least demonstrate that our decisions are neither frivolous, nor foolish. That goes for both sides.

So, with that in mind, I wanted to respond to the notion that Kate and Sawyer are too "cutsie". I am sorry if it comes off as harsh -- it's not intended in that way at all.

While Kate and Sawyer have many "playful" moments (one of the things we skaters love about the relationship), there are many other more serious and emotional moments between them as well. Here are just two of them:

From Confidence Man

Not cutsie #1 (http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=70&pos=638)

Not cutsie #2 (http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=70&pos=639)

Not cutsie #3 (http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=70&pos=670)

Not cutsie #4 (http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=70&pos=833)

Not cutsie #5 (http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=70&pos=831)

From Outlaws (I believe JJ listed this as one of his favorites because of this scene, stating, "I loved the dynamic between Sawyer and Kate. It proved to me that two people talking in the jungle can be as compelling as running from a monster." I don't think he would describe that dynamic as 'cutsie'.

Not cutsie #6 (http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=255&pos=453)

Not cutsie #7 (http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=255&pos=456)

Not cutsie #8 (http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=255&pos=454)

Not cutsie #9 (http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=255&pos=459)

Jaters have several playful, or "cutsie" moments they cling to themselves, I don't think they'd say that was detrimental to their favored relationship -- on the contrary, I believe they think it adds strength to it.

Claudia815

02-07-2006, 07:42 AM

I know the choice in relationships is as uncontrollable as one's taste in wine, but there is room for clarification and discussion.
Absolutely.

While we will most likely never convince each other that our position is 'the best', we can at least demonstrate that our decisions are neither frivolous, nor foolish. That goes for both sides.

Again... I agree. And I've got some clarifying to do as well, some points I want to comment on, not least of which is the fact that it was never my intention to label their relationship as a whole as "frivolous".

I don't think he would describe that dynamic as 'cutsie'.

You know what's coming, don't you? Nor would I. I'm starting to see a pattern here. And a sore neck from all that nodding I'm doing. Thanks for sharing that JJ comment. It's good to know we have similar tastes :smile: I love that episode for the very same reason. I don't presume to be able to read the mind of an Iluminati, but I'm not sure "dynamic" translates as romance. We'll get to that later.
I never meant to imply that "cutsie" was the only aspect of their relationship, but I assumed that didn't need any further clarification, regardless of one's "denomination" of choice. As far as I'm concerned, their serious and emotional moments are proof of that deeper bond they share, something I can't equate with romantic love. I'm not blind. I see the flirting and the teasing and yes, the obvious chemistry. (Hear that rustle-like noise in the background? I believe that's my excommunication decree hot off the printing press.) But precisely because I'm not blind, I can't put the storytelling aspect at the back of my mind. Which brings me to yet another one of my least favorite school subjects, geometry, i.e. our beloved tropical triangle. K/S chemistry is used as a Plot Device and it works. I just can't take it for granted as undeniable proof of their inevitable romantic relationship. (And I'm not saying you do either. But the two of us do not a fandom make.)

I'd like to think their bond goes much deeper than that and I'm not sure I can explain this point without getting too personal for most people's tastes. I grew up in Sawyer and Kate's pre-island world. My experiences were nowhere near as violent or dramatic, but I dare say I have a pretty good idea about the marks such an upbringing can leave. I believe that K&S gravitate towards each other because they're scared of moving on. Because that's what kids who "get knocked around" do when stranded on a desert island, or in a new school every six months. Perhaps it's just my personal bias, but I don't agree with the view that they don't need to move on, that they're wonderful the way they are. I think they want to shed that burden that comes with the kind of lives they've led before the crash. And I know how difficult it is.

I'm aware that my thesis is highly unoriginal, btw. Prior to WKD, I had no problem with the romance aspect of their relationship, but that episode, or rather my interpretation of it, changed everything for me.

I apologize for the rambling, but I feel I need to explain my use of the term "cutsie". English is not my first language (nor the second for that matter) but from my experience with native speakers, I understood, perhaps incorrectly, that the connotations of the word run the gamut from "barf-inducing" to "fun but superficial." I hope it's a bit clearer now which one I had in mind and why I used it to describe the Plot Advancement aspect of their relationship.

Jaters have several playful, or "cutsie" moments they cling to themselves, I don't think they'd say that was detrimental to their favored relationship -- on the contrary, I believe they think it adds strength to it.

Not to mention how much fun it is. :) I've never even known what guava looked like until recently. I don't think it takes away anything from the S/K dynamic as it is either.

I am sorry if it comes off as harsh -- it's not intended in that way at all.

I didn't take it that way. In fact I appreciate the maturity, the insight and yes, the direct approach. I tend to stay away from this type of debate because, frankly, I don't have the energy to take fandom seriously. Unless I read something that's: a) preposterous or b) interesting, engaging and debate-worthy. I think it’s safe to say a) is out in this case.

lisagwilkins

02-07-2006, 09:12 AM

Zatherran

02-07-2006, 02:48 PM

Sawyer, IMO, has only been "a one night stand con man". He doesnt know how to be any different. I think if he wanted to get further with Kate he needs to change is ways.
Maybe kate isnt interested in either one in a deeper way.
I get so comfused when i watch them. I feel kate give sawyer that "best friend" body language. And gives Jack "oops didnt mean lead you on".
but if the writers ask, which one for kate, I'd say jack.

aredburn

02-07-2006, 02:52 PM

With Kate and Sawyer, people tend to over analyze and not accept Skate at face values

Because that's exactly what the show is about. Analyzing, analyzing, analyzing and looking for the depth.

The Kate-Sawyer relationships sounds a lot like the Diana-Wayne relationship, with the difference Skate is not physically abusive.

DO you think the writers are lying to you?

From what I have been reading from them, it seems to me they confirmed it's Jate.
Has anyone here ever dated someone that they really cared about, yet it just didn't click as that 'this is all I could ever want' vibe?

How about me? :) That's why relationships end.

Imo Jack challenges Kate's status quo & supports her as she finds her own way.

... while Sawyer doesn't question her, challanges her, but accept whatever she's willing to give, no changes, no growing up.

Kate HAS to change period. That's why all those people are in the island for. I just cannot see Kate doing it if she's in a relationship that doesn't require her to be the Kate she is, not the Kate she wants people to see her as.

Kate goes to Sawyer because he expects little of her, while Jack doesn't. He knows she can do more and pushes her to do it.

I want to see her overcome judging herself by her father and become the person she lost when she learned her true paternity.

Because your genes don't make you who you are and that's where she gets lost.
Jate versus Skate has to do with how you view what a relationship should be.

Exactly. So how could anyone in their perfect mind want a relationship like Kate-Sawyer? O.o

The only comforting Jack did in WKD was get kissed due to Kate's sleep deprivation

Yes, because she was totally thinking of Sawyer right?

banshee

02-07-2006, 03:36 PM

Oh there is no question as far as I'm concerned. Kate has what Sawyer needs, which is love and acceptance, he doesn't have to be anything but himself and she doesn't have to feel like she always has to try to measure up to Jack's lofty goals.

Huggs y'all,
Lisa :cool:
I'm not quite sure what lofty goals Jack has though..Trust, Honesty, Respect? Those are the building blocks for anything enduring. He heard Kate was a killer yet didn't press her for details & he certainly didn't shun her away after that. It had been him who had been betrayed in WTCMB but he expected no apology, instead he reached out the olive branch. And after all the times he's covered for her, defended her to others like Hurley/Locke, kept her secrets in spite of that betrayal, lies, got the case for her, imo he knows she partook in the poisoning, drugging him, etc, I think Jack deserves a simple explanation of why she used him for a toy plane for i.e.

I'm not saying Jack is perfect in the least, but if what happened in HM wasn't a gesture of unconditional love I don't know what is. Not to mention coupled with things like having having faith in her to deliver Claire's baby, trusting her to have his back, telling her "no one owes anyone anything", "we all deserve a chance to start over", "if you need me..", etc. I would think would be very meaningful & self affirming to a person who thinks she isn't good.

AFaithL

02-07-2006, 08:28 PM

Kate and Sawyer have so much chemistry! They sizzle!

Kate and Jack are BORING!

Colie

02-07-2006, 08:49 PM

banshee

02-07-2006, 09:15 PM

Definitly Kate and Sawyer. The whole "good guy gets the girl" thing has been played to much. Besides, Kate and Sawyer have this natural chemistry but between Kate and Jack it seems forced to me. Like they feel they have to act a certain way around each other.:)
I feel the opposite. I think Jack/Kate exude that this could be true love vibe. Imo, it doesn't make sense that Kate, a woman who ran from everyone she loved in her life, would ease into a committed relationship & embrace love after being rejected by Tom. After all love is a "good" thing which few of us feel deserving of, particularly someone who feels as Kate does...And Jack is a man who has recently experienced loss of loved ones to death & betrayal, so he would ne hesitant to put his heart on the line again. Thus I take the way Jack/Kate are sometimes awkward & nervous around each other to be indicative of how much they feel for one another.

Loosely using the terms, there's been several of instances in which the "good guy" has had the girl stolen by the "bad boy" so neither scenario is free of cliche.

I love how Jack & Kate have just enough in common, their valiance, experiences w/alcoholic fathers, care taking natures, proactive attitude etc. with differences to keep it interesting & provide avenues for growth.

bobbinghead1

02-07-2006, 09:46 PM

AFaithL

02-07-2006, 10:46 PM

I realize why he ratted her out. I was just stating that Jack would have never done that to Kate. Instead, he would have spoken to her in private to clear things up.

Jack practically abandonded Kate when she was held hostage by Zeke. He was pissy saying "You're not coming!!!!!" just because he didn't want her around Sawyer. Then he was more pissed at her destroying his chance to get information out of Zeke than he was upset that she might have DIED from being killed by Zeke! Sorry, but Jack has done some pretty crappy things to Kate, and "The Hunting Party" episode proves it.

wildjinx

02-07-2006, 11:22 PM

Jack practically abandonded Kate when she was held hostage by Zeke. He was pissy saying "You're not coming!!!!!" just because he didn't want her around Sawyer.
Actually, "The Hunting Party" confirmed not only how much Jack cares for Kate, but also how much she cares for him. Jack wanted to keep Kate safe, which is why he wanted her to stay. It had nothing to do with Sawyer ... as astonishing as it might seem, the world does not revolve around Sawyer. The last time Kate went trekking off in the jungle of doom, despite Jack and Locke's cautions about the volatile nature of the dynamite (if you have to run, put the bag down), Kate, who believed she was packing nitroglycerin fireworks, took off running with the bag still on! No wonder Jack wanted her to stay! He saw that despite her good intentions, her recklessness in a danger to herself and others.

Jack most certainly didn't abandon her ... in fact, he was the only one who even asked if she was okay.

And as for his "You're not coming!", Jack had already given her a perfectly good explanation ... they were in a rush to go, time was running short, and she was still arguing about not being picked for the Scooby gang. Jack's response was perfectly normal and acceptable considering the situation. I'm sure that if lives were not at stake, they could have all stood around shooting the breeze for another hour, however, they didn't have that luxury.

Then he was more pissed at her destroying his chance to get information out of Zeke than he was upset that she might have DIED from being killed by Zeke!

Wow, I couldn't disagree more ... Jack wasn't upset that Board Meeting from Hell was over, he was out of his mind with fear that something would happen to her. He was furious that Zeke was holding her hostage, not at Kate for being captured. 35 episodes of Lost all point to the same thing: Jack is a protector. At that moment, Jack's only concern was Kate, not finding out the date of Weirdy McBeardy's birthday. Listen to what the actors, the writers, and TPTB say --- it all confirms this!

Sorry, but Jack has done some pretty crappy things to Kate, and "The Hunting Party" episode proves it.

Again, while I respect and appreciate everyone's right to an opinion, I cannot begin to measure how much I disagree with this statement. Jack has consistently shown that while he is far from perfect, he is most definitely supportive of her. Not only has he kept her secrets, he has never lorded them over her, or blackmailed her into doing what he wants or risk exposure. He has helped her, and defended her, complimented her and encouraged her. Jack has stood by Kate, and never given anyone else reason to doubt that he does. Have they argued? Well heck, yeah! But it has never been done with malicious intent, and it has always been private. I mean, it's not like he has ever lashed out at her or tried to hurt her emotionally because he was bored.

AFaithL

02-07-2006, 11:31 PM

What I find amazing is that many Jaters do not see any faults in Jack when it comes to Kate. It's like Jack's behavior towards Kate is 100% supportive, and just lovely all the time - when in reality, Jack hasn't been ALWAYS great towards Kate. Just like Sawyer hasn't been ALWAYS great towards Kate. But Skaters can admit this. But what is interesting to me, is that many Jaters cannot admit that Jack has treated Kate wrongly at times during the show. It's like Jack's behavior is always justified - no matter what. I just find it ironic. Many people, non-Jaters AND Jaters have said that Jack didn't treat Kate well in that episode. And for those Jaters of you who can admit that Jack has been WRONG at times when it comes to Kate, and acted poorly, I applaud you.

Yes, Jack is a good, decent guy.

BUT there have been times when Jack has been in the wrong when it came to Kate.

And there have been times when Jack was in the wrong when it came to Sawyer.

And there have been MANY times when Jack was in the wrong when it came to Locke.

Fans of Jack keep saying that "he's not perfect, he's flawed", yet they keep justifying everything Jack has done on the island and excusing him. Why can't Jack fans just say, "Even though I love Jack, there have been times when he has treated others badly". Because I can admit that about Sawyer. And I can admit that about Kate. Being a fan of a character means you can admit when they've been wrong about something and still love them anyway. Instead of justifying everything they do. JMO.

banshee

02-07-2006, 11:39 PM

What I find amazing is that most Jaters do not see any faults in Jack when it comes to Kate. It's like Jack's behavior towards Kate is 100% supportive, and just lovely all the time - when in reality, Jack hasn't been ALWAYS great towards Kate. Just like Sawyer hasn't been ALWAYS great towards Kate. But Skaters can admit this. But what is interesting to me, is that many Jaters cannot admit that Jack has treated Kate wrongly at times during the show. It's like Jack's behavior is always justified - no matter what. I just find it ironic. Many people, non-Jaters AND Jaters have said that Jack didn't treat Kate well in that episode. And for those Jaters of you who can admit that Jack has been WRONG at times when it comes to Kate, and acted poorly, I applaud you.
That's rather blanket generalizing Jaters & Jack fans opinions. We did not care for the way Jack was to Kate in HP. But we're trying to understand it & see it from his pov. Much in the way Sawyer's actions were viewed for outing Kate.

Lectures on how we're supposed be a fan are not needed as I'd venture to say most character fans could be accused of being sympathizers & justifying actions for the reasons I stated. We're representing their perspectives & attempting to understand where they're coming from.

Jate48

02-07-2006, 11:40 PM

Jack and Kate definately

AFaithL

02-07-2006, 11:41 PM

That's rather blanket generalizing Jaters opinions.

Re-read what I said. I said some Jaters.

But we're trying to understand it & see it from his pov.

Jack was pissed off at Kate. So what? He got pissed. Big deal. People get pissed all the time. He wasn't totally supportive of Kate. At that time Sawyer was more supportive. And the roles have been reversed a LOT of the time - when Sawyer's gotten pissed at Kate and Jack has been more supportive. In this instance, Jack was not as supportive. Jack doesn't have to be right all the time. Sawyer certainly isn't.

Much in the way Sawyer's actions were viewed for outing Kate.

Yes Sawyer was wrong, just like KATE was wrong in that episode for poisoning someone. That's what I mean. From all angles, I can see that Sawyer was pissed and did something not so honorable to Kate. Just like JACK was pissed and did something not so honorable to Kate in HP. Just like KATE did something not so honorable in the "outing Kate" episode by friggin' posioning someone. Kate was in the wrong, too. SHE has done bad stuff as well. Kate wasn't the poor, innocent Saint. She poisioned someone, for crying out loud!

None of these people are perfect. Frankly, the show would be boring to me if they were. Everyone's done crappy things on the island.

banshee

02-07-2006, 11:59 PM

QUOTE=AFaithL;766308]Re-read what I said. I said some Jaters.
And you went on to say "Jack fans" & "fans of Jack", vs. some. I punctuated one of my posts several replies back with "I'm not saying Jack is perfect in the least".
Jack was pissed off at Kate. So what? He got pissed. Big deal. People get pissed all the time. He wasn't totally supportive of Kate. At that time Sawyer was more supportive. And the roles have been reversed a LOT of the time - when Sawyer's gotten pissed at Kate and Jack has been more supportive. In this instance, Jack was not as supportive. Jack doesn't have to be right all the time. Sawyer certainly isn't.

Yes in this instance I'll agree. Generally though,imo, Jack has been very supportive of Kate.

Yes Sawyer was wrong, just like KATE was wrong in that episode for poisoning someone. That's what I mean. From all angles, I can see that Sawyer was pissed and did something not so honorable to Kate. Just like JACK was pissed and did something not so honorable to Kate in HP. Just like KATE did something not so honorable in the "outing Kate" episode by friggin' posioning someone. Kate was in the wrong, too. SHE has done bad stuff as well. It just seems like you want to point out Sawyer's flaws in that episode while ignoring all the bad stuff Kate has done, like Kate was this poor innocent saint instead of poisioning someone.
I pointed out how Sawyer was to Kate with the outing because he had his reasons which folks tried to understand, & Jack had his in HP. Nothing more or less. I did not say Kate did not do wrong things in BTR.

TRoss

02-08-2006, 01:13 AM

Again... I agree. And I've got some clarifying to do as well, some points I want to comment on, not least of which is the fact that it was never my intention to label their relationship as a whole as "frivolous".

I had a feeling you would. ;)

I don't presume to be able to read the mind of an Iluminati, but I'm not sure "dynamic" translates as romance. We'll get to that later.

I would agree with you on that point - at least the part of the scene from the screencaps I posted. My use of the quote and the scene wasn't to imply love was represented, nor romance, but something "not cutsie". Had they been a couple at the time, I don't think I'd describe that scene as romantic, but I nor do I find them "too cutsie" either. I read your post and I see that is not exactly how you meant to describe it, either.

I never meant to imply that "cutsie" was the only aspect of their relationship, but I assumed that didn't need any further clarification, regardless of one's "denomination" of choice. As far as I'm concerned, their serious and emotional moments are proof of that deeper bond they share, something I can't equate with romantic love. I'm not blind. I see the flirting and the teasing and yes, the obvious chemistry.

Yep, that's exactly how I quantify the serious and emotional jate moments - there was clearly a bond there early on - I saw it, but to me it seems to be diminishing, perhaps as you say, owing to the use of the triangle to drive the story. Maybe it will come back around -- maybe it's still there, and I just like you, don't equate it with romantic love.

K/S chemistry is used as a Plot Device and it works. I just can't take it for granted as undeniable proof of their inevitable romantic relationship. (And I'm not saying you do either. But the two of us do not a fandom make.)

I think you're right on the money there - it did start as a plot device, and probably worked out better than they anticipated. Which may have screwed with their original plans. Now they may be faced with a dilemma -- "which way do we take it now?"

But you are also right in that it can't be taken as proof of an "inevitable romantic relationship", no matter how much we would like it to be, nor what a good case we may make for one or the other -- whether either relationship continues or survives depends on the whim of the writers. I'm sure they take into consideration the feelings of the fans to some extent, but ultimately it's about the whole story on LOST - and to quote the show's other creator, Damon, "How can you ever possibly think that 'Lost' will end in a satisfying way? Carlton and I can almost guarantee you that it will not." So with that forboding statement, I don't think either side will be able to prove which would have been the better couple -- I think all we can hope for is confirmation that there was love there, and that they weren't blinding themselves

I'd like to think their bond goes much deeper than that and I'm not sure I can explain this point without getting too personal for most people's tastes. I grew up in Sawyer and Kate's pre-island world. My experiences were nowhere near as violent or dramatic, but I dare say I have a pretty good idea about the marks such an upbringing can leave. I believe that K&S gravitate towards each other because they're scared of moving on. Because that's what kids who "get knocked around" do when stranded on a desert island, or in a new school every six months. Perhaps it's just my personal bias, but I don't agree with the view that they don't need to move on, that they're wonderful the way they are. I think they want to shed that burden that comes with the kind of lives they've led before the crash. And I know how difficult it is.

I'm no stranger to that world myself . . . I wonder though, do you think these two characters, because of their similar backgrounds, will keep each other from growing? Do you believe you need to find someone from better circumstances than yourself to succeed in changing for the better? I'd hate to think that was true . . . if it were, that would mean choosing Kate would be detrimental for Jack - he would need to look for someone who came from even better circumstances than himself. And if it isn't true, then it stands to reason that people from similar backgrounds wouldn't necessarily drag each other down. I think all three of the participants in the triangle are facing significant demons that will interfere with a successful relationship (cause hell, it's a TV drama after all), regardless of their backgrounds.

I just cringe at the idea that Jack is better for Kate because he didn't come from such a background as her - as if her background is inferior, and therefore so is she, and only someone "superior" can save her. Sounds a bit like Cinderella. I don't know that that's how you're seeing it though. I'd be interesting in hearing your thoughts. I generally avoid long posts, but I enjoyed yours. ;)

I'm aware that my thesis is highly unoriginal, btw. Prior to WKD, I had no problem with the romance aspect of their relationship, but that episode, or rather my interpretation of it, changed everything for me.
I hope you meant "unusual", not "unoriginal", because your theory is not the norm - I've seen many Jack and Kate fans who don't acknowledge any K/S chemistry beyond sexual, and you're careful to point out the fact that we are dealing foremost with writers' devices, not actual people. Which basically means, it doesn't matter how good an argument we make, it's ultimately the writers that will define the relationships.

As for WKD, I'm assuming you're referring to her apparent transfer of emotion from Wayne to Sawyer. That was an interesting turn of events. My take on that is, the writers had to have done that on purpose - make the man she hated so much like a man she likes so much now - they had her state that herself - she IS having feelings for Sawyer, and she hates it. The only reason I can see them doing that, is so that she will get over that hatred, through Sawyer. OR, on the flip side, it may just serve to push her away, as yet another plot device.

I apologize for the rambling, but I feel I need to explain my use of the term "cutsie". English is not my first language (nor the second for that matter) but from my experience with native speakers, I understood, perhaps incorrectly, that the connotations of the word run the gamut from "barf-inducing" to "fun but superficial." I hope it's a bit clearer now which one I had in mind and why I used it to describe the Plot Advancement aspect of their relationship.

:lol2: Yes, from your post it seemed like you were chalking it up to "flirting" and "sexual innuendo" - that's why I used the term "frivolous". Thanks for clarifying. Your English is great, btw.

I didn't take it that way. In fact I appreciate the maturity, the insight and yes, the direct approach. I tend to stay away from this type of debate because, frankly, I don't have the energy to take fandom seriously. Unless I read something that's: a) preposterous or b) interesting, engaging and debate-worthy. I think it’s safe to say a) is out in this case.
I have to say, I genuinely enjoyed your post - thanks for replying! And I know what you mean - when it comes to fandoms, you might as well add them to politics and religion as things that rarely can be discussed rationally. Strong opinions often come with even stronger reactions to challenges to those same opinions. Sometimes I think, why bother? And other times I think, how can I NOT say something?? :lol2: But, that's what happens when you really enjoy something, and clearly a LOT of people, myself included, enjoy the relationships on the show. I'm glad they made the show not just about the mysteries, but about the relationships as well - that's what gives it depth, in my opinion.

BTW, did we get any closer to deciding which is a better couple? :lol2:

Zatherran

02-08-2006, 06:12 AM

i rewatched exodux 2 last night. and jack traded out her backpack so she didnt take the explosives.
why? . kate has a serious tendency to run. and if you watch her run when the monster showed, well jack was right. of course she became defensive about him making choices, but he was right, becasue hurly and her would be all over that jungle if he had not traded with her.
i feel he made the choice with kate on HP because though she wants to be braver and thinks she can handle those moments, in truth she runs or does something to put others in danger. and that is exactly what she did.
his anger at her imo is for two things, he cares for her and doesnt want her hurt, and two, she could have put them in danger.
I dont like the way he handled her afterwars, but per his anger level, I'd say he decided to walk away so he didnt shake her up a bit. all imo.
what her thoughts are about the army and ana - lulu, well, as Locke told Walt in the pilot deleted scene, some people you can't read.
maybe jack just knows how she will react. now as i write this, does ana-lulu act any different. She let her fears pour out and shot shannon.
it should be interesting to see this play out.

aredburn

02-08-2006, 04:15 PM

Listen to what the actors, the writers, and TPTB say --- it all confirms this!

LIES! at least that's what they must think.

*giggles*

Sorry, but Jack has done some pretty crappy things to Kate, and "The Hunting Party" episode proves it.

So has Sawyer, and much more btw. But let me guess, you never saw any of it?
What I find amazing is that many Jaters do not see any faults in Jack when it comes to Kate.

While the skaters cannot see any faults in Sawyer, always excusing what he does with some good intention behind it, when there is NONE.

At that time Sawyer was more supportive

woa. stuff like that happens one time and he's the God.

I have noticed that skaters tend to bring out the bad in Kate, everything bad she's done and that's what she is. Why is that? To make them deserving of each other? I don't understand, Sawyer has treated her so badly several times and yet she was always the one standing up for him

AFaithL

02-08-2006, 06:04 PM

Listen to what the actors, the writers, and TPTB say --- it all confirms this!
LIES! at least that's what they must think.

Oh, I don't think it's lies at all. Especially Josh Holloway saying that Skate is here for the lonngggggg haul - not as a temporarily obstacle. That if they break up, they'll get back together, break up again, and get back together. That it would be constant. Oh, and that was also confirmed *recently* by a writer - which would be TPTB. The tone has changed in writers/producers/actors interviews since season 1.

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Sorry, but Jack has done some pretty crappy things to Kate, and "The Hunting Party" episode proves it.

So has Sawyer, and much more btw. But let me guess, you never saw any of it?

Nope, I've pointed out Sawyer's faults. Can you honestly point out Jack's?

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What I find amazing is that many Jaters do not see any faults in Jack when it comes to Kate.

While the skaters cannot see any faults in Sawyer, always excusing what he does with some good intention behind it, when there is NONE.

Nope. Skaters have seen lots of faults in Sawyer and mentioned them. It's the Jaters (most of them) that won't talk about Jack's faults.

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At that time Sawyer was more supportive

woa. stuff like that happens one time and he's the God.

Nope, just a multi-layered guy. He's not evil, like some Jaters want to think. Just like Jack isn't a saint who has treated everyone perfectly, like some Jaters want to believe.

Arcane

02-08-2006, 06:12 PM

Zatherran

02-08-2006, 06:13 PM

Just like in real life we are at the mercy of the powers that be.........
Just 3 more hours to go! and thats it for me, I am gonna get off this computer and try not to think about LOST.......... YEA right!

Fish1941

02-08-2006, 06:43 PM

And from that point of view, no matter how fun/cutsey/hot it might be, Sawyer/Kate doesn't make any sense in the long run. And it's kind of... unhealthy.

Actually, I can say the same about Jack and Kate. I get the feeling that Kate is willing to depend upon Jack to make her life better. And that Jack believes that he can help or "fix" her. But I don't think they really understand each other. And neither Jack or Kate (especially her) seemed to realize that Jack has his own personal crap to deal with, before he can really help someone else. And I don't think that a woman with a tendency to put him on a pedestal is the person to do it.

I think that Sawyer and Kate understand each other a lot better. Whether they can succeed in being a positive force in each other's lives remains to be seen. I don't know. Maybe they can grow together.

banshee

02-08-2006, 06:58 PM

Actually, I can say the same about Jack and Kate. I get the feeling that Kate is willing to depend upon Jack to make her life better. And that Jack believes that he can help or "fix" her. But I don't think they really understand each other. And neither Jack or Kate (especially her) seemed to realize that Jack has his own personal crap to deal with, before he can really help someone else. And I don't think that a woman with a tendency to put him on a pedestal is the person to do it.

I think that Sawyer and Kate understand each other a lot better. Whether they can succeed in being a positive force in each other's lives remains to be seen. I don't know. Maybe they can grow together.
I think it's a misnomer to say Jack doesn't understand Kate because imo, Jack/Sawyer understand different parts of her. Kate is not a one dimensional criminal/killer anymore than Sawyer is. She has vulnerability & an emotional side which I feel Jack has tended to more up to this pnt. This is demonstrated by his history of gestures of friendship & support. Continuing to keep her secrets, telling her if she needs him she knows where he is & many other i.e.'s I referenced in my posts above.

The crux of Kate's issues stem from the inadequacy Wayne made her feel. Jack has been through this exact same experience with his alcoholic father. They were both emotionally repressed/abused.

Imo, the problem Jack/Kate have is miscommunication & that is a surmountable obstacle. The WR script states "in some cosmic way they just 'get' each other" which suggests they understand one another in a way outside of rationale.

It would seem Sawyer expects the same honesty & respect from Kate that Jack does. His actions in BTR in withholding the case in exchange for personal info & outing her were because he wanted to know her & was hurt when he thought she disrespected him by casting suspicion about the poisoning on to him.

There's a saying "Don't just love someone, adore them". I really don't find Kate thinking of Jack so highly to negate her being able to help him grow which I'll address in a later post. I think she's well aware he's messed up in his own ways. Imo, it speaks even more of her feelings of him if she thinks he's perfect in spite of that.

Zatherran

02-08-2006, 07:00 PM

im back, i cant take anymore, I am going crazy waiting...
but I must be of old school, and very old fashioned. but if they got rescued, kate is taken back and put under trial. I ponder the how she will be if she is found not guilty.
I mean, all these years of running, keeping in your heart that this is the life you have to lead, what does she want to do in her life? who was kate before the wayne incident?
from the pictures and trophies on her mothers cabnet, maybe she loved horses.
you know it has to weight heavy on her mind. Which one would wait for her if she was found guilty? If sawyer comes to terms with his issue what then, what did he want to do as kid or what would he like to do. ( i think a school teacher would be a good thing)(maybe english lit). Jack, would he go back to being a doctor, or this do what he really wanted ( from comment about family business it wasnt what he really wanted).
just the rambling of a Jater Fan......
anyway, just some thoughts.

Jate48

02-08-2006, 07:02 PM

im back, i cant take anymore, I am going crazy waiting...

Lol
And rachael100, well done, you definately caused a discussion with this thread :smile:

SweetiePie

02-10-2006, 05:00 PM

Bella

02-10-2006, 05:23 PM

Kate & Jack...

Kate and Sawyer have a lot in common, including their criminal pasts, their ability to survive in terrible circumstances, and a wrong-side-of-the-tracks upbringing. But... Jack has the depth and complexity that Kate needs to stay engaged, while also offering security, safety, sensitivity and a whole lot o' sex appeal!

AFaithL -- Maybe Jack fans (and I am one) are buying into the character's own God complex. ;) I kid, I kid.

But I must stand up for myself and other Jack/Jater fans, especially those of us who also love Sawyer, and say that it's not true that we can't see that Jack is human. There have been moments when I've said, "What's his problem?" after he's been irritable or mean or unreasonable because even the best of us have our not-so-great moments.

And for the record, Jack is by faaaar my favorite Lostie, but I'm a huge Sawyer fan and think it's silly that people believe fans need to be either/or.

LostFANatic91

02-10-2006, 05:27 PM

Kate needs a guy who will treat her good, and different. Someone who doesn't run. That is Jack.

Carencey

02-11-2006, 04:19 AM

A quick mod type note: just in the name of keeping discussion civil, let's try to keep this on the topic of the characters and 'ships, rather than the posters who love them...what with the price of heating gas this year, we really can't afford a flame war!

*hides from bad joke tomatoes*

Sphynx

02-11-2006, 07:26 AM

I voted Sawyer & Kate. Despite all, Sawyer is not as bad as he seems to be in the first season, and (I haven't seen ep 2x13 yet), Jack's character is getting darker, IMHO. And I think they have very similarities, both with stronger characters. Sawyer is now learning the meaning of friendship. And I think Kate is one of his reasons to stay at the Island and collaborate. Let's see...

P.S.: I hope this post was on-topic, if not, let me know.! :smile:

4815Waiting for disaster16234

02-11-2006, 12:27 PM

Claudia815

02-11-2006, 12:34 PM

SAWYER: "A tiger can't change its stripes."

JACK: "Three days ago, we all died. We should all be able to start over."

Well, I guess it's all about choices, isn't it?

aredburn

02-11-2006, 12:39 PM

Well, I guess it's all about choices, isn't it?

That's what TPTB have been saying all along :)

And if you can't, what's the point of being stranded in that Island?

Kate wants to change, Sawyer doesn't (and apparently has no faith at all in Kate and seems not to want her to change). Now tell me how that can work.

I guess that's the difference between Jack and Sawyer, too.

While Jack wants to bring Kate out of the whole, Sawyer is holding her in there.

Joshypoo

02-11-2006, 12:53 PM

SKate all the way.

banshee

02-11-2006, 03:27 PM

SKate forever. They both need someone who can understand the things they've gone through and how they are feeling. Kate is the only person who's managed to bring out the friendly, sweet side to Sawyer & they are both outKaSts - they belong together. Besides Jack doesn't trust Kate, he judges her because of her past.

If Jack truly didn't not accept her for her past vs. being exasperated by her present choices, then why would he give her seeds to apologize after he was betrayed & told she was a killer in the previous episode?

And if he didn't trust her on some level, why ask her to have his back, be the only one he confided in about Locke, or not tell Ana the combination yet trust Kate's judgement enough to ask Ana where she was when Sun was taken.

ccrider

02-11-2006, 05:17 PM

Sawyer is who he is -- and Kate seems drawn to him. They have such great chemistry together! It's the main reason I watch the show.

I started watching Lost at the second episode/Part II of the pilot. I thought the show was okay, but I didn't feel like I HAD to watch it. It seemed obvious to me that the plan was for Kate and Jack to hook up. Not because of any attraction there, but because they had this hero/heroine thing going on.

It was only when I saw the previews for Confidence Man that I decided this show was for me. Sawyer and Kate's kiss sealed the deal. I haven't missed an episode since, and I treasure my Season One DVD's.

QueenElessar

02-11-2006, 05:26 PM

SAWYER: "A tiger can't change its stripes."

JACK: "Three days ago, we all died. We should all be able to start over."

Well, I guess it's all about choices, isn't it?

That's a very selective quote selection ;)

And it hardly sums up the complexities of both relationships.

Power-Out

02-11-2006, 05:49 PM

Kate needs a guy who will treat her good, and different. Someone who doesn't run. That is Jack.

Jack "boys don't cry" Shephard ran from the monster... ;)

Claudia815

02-11-2006, 05:54 PM

That's a very selective quote selection ;)
And it hardly sums up the complexities of both relationships.

Pshhh. Who cares? I just want Kate out of the way so that Ana and Sawyer can fullfill their destiny as teh hottest couple in the history of primetime. :p

banshee

02-11-2006, 06:18 PM

Jack "boys don't cry" Shephard ran from the monster... ;)
ah the real men don't cry ... Jack has also ran back for ppl when the monster has been coming. And he's sat still while dynamite has been thrown between his legs which I'd venture to say most men would be shedding a tear or two at the prospect.

aredburn

02-11-2006, 08:48 PM

And it hardly sums up the complexities of both relationships

Actually, I think it sums it up perfectly, because that's basically how both relationships are.

I just want Kate out of the way so that Ana and Sawyer can fullfill their destiny as teh hottest couple in the history of primetime.

Go Sana! They're canon, you know that right? :D

QueenElessar

02-11-2006, 11:47 PM

Actually, I think it sums it up perfectly, because that's basically how both relationships are.

After Jack said Kate should get a new start and not have to say anything about her past...he asked her several times to tell him the truth...sometimes when he was angry. This is NOT a slam at Jack at all...but it illustrates that when you use a simple quote to sum up an entire relationship, you take it totally out of context. Jack did make that statement...but he DID go back on his own words several times...(although Kate's behaviour did justify that)

And as for Sawyer's statement..."a tiger can't change his stripes"...that hardly sums up everything he shares with Kate. That has far more to do with Sawyer's internal struggle with himself than it does with his relationship with her. And his actions have actually contradicted that his statement many times...no matter how much he wants it to be true. (Because Sawyer more than anyone else wants to believe he can't change...because he's scared to). However, incidentally the statement also illustrates that Sawyer and Kate have because she is as well afraid to change...and struggling with herself in that manner. That's one of the things they BOTH have to overcome...and the fact that she understands his struggle speaks to their connection.

Whether you Skate or Jate...the fact remains that simple quotes taken out of context can hardly make a viable case for either relationship. I could choose different quotes that would scew it in a more Skate direction...but I don't think that's a convincing argument :)

banshee

02-12-2006, 01:20 AM

After Jack said Kate should get a new start and not have to say anything about her past...he asked her several times to tell him the truth...sometimes when he was angry. This is NOT a slam at Jack at all...but it illustrates that when you use a simple quote to sum up an entire relationship, you take it totally out of context. Jack did make that statement...but he DID go back on his own words several times...(although Kate's behaviour did justify that)
I agree he went back on the aspect that he didn't want to know about her past several times...The HOTRS script of the "dig in" scene illustrates it's not because he's judging her vs. needing to understand her & why she's shutting him out. She misinterprets the intent. As she does when he gets mad after she's lied/used him because rather than take accountability for her action she reacts out of insecurity over her past,

He said we all 'deserve' a fresh start which I think is a key word because through his other actions (such as telling her no one owes anyone anything, keeping her secrets despite his anger, hearing she's a killer & reaching out the olive branch etc) he makes her feel deserving.

I know you were using it as an example for the quote thing so I just wanted to elaborate lol :)

lisse

02-12-2006, 02:21 AM

I'm confused :confused: with who Kate likes best at anyone time, she seems to play each off against oneanother to get what she wants (good girl!). But it's weird how they can develop these sorts deep feelings such as Sawyer saying he loves Kate, because THERE'S A MONSTER OUT THERE??!! - Oh yea it's only T.V :grin: - Brilliant & best however! :coolorng: Cool site too..! Hello everyone

bichitolindo

02-12-2006, 11:18 AM

I think Sawyer is the best choice for Kate, he can understand her, not like Jack, who, IMO lives in his world where he does (almost) everything fine and is a good guy. I also find Jack a bit boring, but Sawyer with his sense of humor, his niknames... he'd be a funnier boyfriend.

Besides, i think that together, Kate and Sawyer will finally be better people.

_Wanda_

02-12-2006, 11:58 AM

I don't think Sawyer is a better person with Kate, especially after his con. I think Jack and Kate should be together, but not immediately. They like each other, at least I think. But they are not ready right now.

bichitolindo

02-12-2006, 02:28 PM

I think that Kate will make Sawyer overcome his fears and will let her come closer than anyone until now, and will begin expressing his feelings towards her. With time, he'll become a better person.

I think Kate really liked Jack at the beginning, but with AnaLucía now and with that new facet of overprotection (or margination towards her) of his... I think she has stopped "loving" him. She prefers the freedom that Sawyer gives her.

lostgurl

02-12-2006, 02:36 PM

I don't know which couple to pick. Kate is much too unstable for Jack, and Sawyer is even too unstable for Kate. I don't think at this point any of them deserve anyone. Jack seems to be the only one that is stable. Kate would make him crazy with all her issues, and Sawyer is too crazy to care about anyone else.

Lela

02-12-2006, 03:07 PM

Kate and Sawyer. :D

banshee

02-12-2006, 04:56 PM

I think Kate really liked Jack at the beginning, but with AnaLucía now and with that new facet of overprotection (or margination towards her) of his... I think she has stopped "loving" him. She prefers the freedom that Sawyer gives her.
Imo, Sawyer knew he could use Kate in his con to get to Jack because he saw Kate was jealous of Ana-Lucia. Especially when he noticed her reaction to saying "Looks like I'm not the only one on the outs with the doc"...In addition, how Kate was intent on apologizing to Jack in HP & how disappointed she looked when he implied he was sorry their romantic relationship didn't work out, I don't think she's stopped loving/liking him.

For some reason I think the events of TLC are going to stick with Kate. I believe she'll forgive Sawyer, but after BTR & this I don't think things will be the same. I'm not sure how can she trust him.

bobbinghead1

02-12-2006, 08:40 PM

I think Kate really liked Jack at the beginning, but with AnaLucía now and with that new facet of overprotection (or margination towards her) of his... I think she has stopped "loving" him. She prefers the freedom that Sawyer gives her.
I agree. Jack seems like a nicer and more reasonable person when he's with AnaL He sees her as equal and respects her opinions. I like Jana very much.

ForbiddenRomance16

02-13-2006, 02:13 AM

Jack and Kate

South Shore

02-13-2006, 09:18 AM

None of the above! I think both possibilities are way too contrived at this point.

wicket55

02-13-2006, 09:33 AM

Imo, Sawyer knew he could use Kate in his con to get to Jack because he saw Kate was jealous of Ana-Lucia. Especially when he noticed her reaction to saying "Looks like I'm not the only one on the outs with the doc"...In addition, how Kate was intent on apologizing to Jack in HP & how disappointed she looked when he implied he was sorry their romantic relationship didn't work out, I don't think she's stopped loving/liking him.

For some reason I think the events of TLC are going to stick with Kate. I believe she'll forgive Sawyer, but after BTR & this I don't think things will be the same. I'm not sure how can she trust him.

I agree with this - I think he used Kate's apparent jealousy over AnaL. to procure the guns for himself - just as he used Charlie's exile from Locke to get him to be apart of the Sun kidnapping and tracking the guns. Kate has had a lot of problems in the past - always running (hello? Born To Run?) - so she feels a connection to Sawyer since he has authority issues like her. But I really think she has actually feelings for Jack but thinks that she doesn't deserve someone like Jack and to be with someone like Jack, she has to settle down - something she is definitely not used to. She would like to be with Jack but her nature and instincts won't allow it.

No, I think that things are definitely changed between Kate and Sawyer. And hopefully Jack will see that Kate was conned with the rest of them and stops this relationship/friendship thing he has going on with AnaL.(please please please!!!) and starts letting Kate in more. Hopefully Jack can show Kate that she can stop running and stop pushing people away - that she can trust him and he won't con her like Sawyer did.

So yeah, apparently I'm going with the Kate and Jack vote. :)