The very first thing Desmond says to Locke ... "Are you him?"

Does that mean he's been waiting for a partner, a replacement, a savior ...

Any thoughts?

HURLEY!!! i immediately thought of that!! who else of the lostaways has the most connections to the numbers!???!?!?!?!?! HURLEY!!!!!!! yay!!!!! lol sorry

Replacement...Totally his replacement.
Maybe it could be Hurley...I even like that idea.
But then I'd say is the whole Desmond/Dharma/Hatch thing seperate from the Walt/Others ordeal?

That is what I assumed, at least...

Its gotta be someone to replace him, or brief him, or save him. He obviously thinks there is some kind of virus thats up there and he wants to get off the island. I wonder why he didn't recognize Jack.

Its gotta be someone to replace him, or brief him, or save him. He obviously thinks there is some kind of virus thats up there and he wants to get off the island. I wonder why he didn't recognize Jack.
I thinkn he did recognize him ... he had a certain "gleem" in his eyes when he stuck his head around Locke to look at Jack.

I think it's either someone to replace him or brief him on what to do next. He gave a riddle to Locke to answer. That's what spies do to identify their contacts. I really think, after that bit, that he is working on some government project!

Eh, I still think its debateable, he didn't recognize him from the spyglass and he wasn't quick to say "Hey jack!" or anything like that. I think our ideas last week about him bringing Jack to island are false. I think this is all just a coincidence.

Yeah there was definite recognition when he looked at Jack...really looked at him.

As for Him, Im reminded of the signals going out over seas. I almost wonder if he made a sort of SOS signal and got a response. And hes been waiting for Him (the response) to come. Could be the crazy guy in Hurley's flashback.

Yeah there was definite recognition when he looked at Jack...really looked at him.

As for Him, Im reminded of the signals going out over seas. I almost wonder if he made a sort of SOS signal and got a response. And hes been waiting for Him (the response) to come. Could be the crazy guy in Hurley's flashback.

There's a good idea. Maybe he's been broadcasting the numbers out over the airwaves.

omg, after that extra RIVETTING episode, I was preparing to come to the 'lage and post up a STORM today (and I still might), but then something happened in my 'hood and I ended up being up waaaaaaaaaay too late with waaaaaaaay too much cortisol coursing through my veins, so now I'm exhausted and not able to form a coherent thought, but I just HAVE to comment in this thread!!!!! I was going to do a thread and entitle it "Are you him?" if no one else had! I totally have a theory here! Speculation ahead...

When Desmond said "Are you him?", and because of the deferential, almost awestruck way in which he said it, I definitely got the feeling that maybe what is going on in the underground society is some sort of CULT, like a doomsday cult!!!! The "doomsday" part of my theory came in later when Desmond seemed genuinely thrown by the fact that the world is still out there and Locke was on a flight from Sydney to LA, life going on as normal. Apparently, Desmond had been led to believe that the world apart from the underground society there has ENDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think the "him" Desmond was hoping for is the leader of this doomsday/utopian cult, someone who is supposed to come there at some point (maybe once the outside world has truly ended) and begin this wonderful new society in earnest?

I'm still hanging onto my bioexperimentation theory but instead of a military angle, I've been leaning towards a privately funded, international corporate angle for a while now, and now we have this whole new added dimension (that is what the LOST team is so fabulous at: added dimensions galore!!!!!!!!!) of maybe it isn't just experimentation funded for the sake of future profits, but maybe for some idealistic, cult-like vision of a future utopian society once the world above reaches a doomsday scenario? LAST NIGHT'S EPISODE ROCKED!!!!

P.S. Are you him? What did one snowman say to the other snowman? ...:crybaby: YOU'RE NOT HIM!

I think he definiely recognized jack, I mean from Ep 1 to this one there is about 2 sec of extra footage on that scene. Jack in ep 1 slightly lowers the gun when he recognizes desmond, then the episode cuts out. Now in ep 2, at that same part he Re-raises the gun and kind of snarls at him (gives him a look)

There is bad blood there somehow...At least it seems that way.

I am thinking replacement. Just looking at all the slash marks on the wall! Someone has been counting the days. I also kinda of like the Hurley idea now too....too much for so early in the morning but it seems its the only time I can get on the boards anymore!

After he asked Locke if he was 'him' and locke said yes. Didn't Desmond say some sort of code thing.. and Locke said he had no idea what he was talking about. Then Desmond was like 'oh, you're not him'

I missed what Desmond said to him bc my dog decided to be pain right then.

After he asked Locke if he was 'him' and locke said yes. Didn't Desmond say some sort of code thing.. and Locke said he had no idea what he was talking about. Then Desmond was like 'oh, you're not him'

I missed what Desmond said to him bc my dog decided to be pain right then.

yes, what did the snowman say to the other snowman....

My thought was he was hoping he was his replacement. He seemed very excited to see him, and very angry to find that he was not him. And then when he asked about how long they'd been on the island, he seemed - to me- disappointed or surprised to hear the number of days. Don't know why that's relevant considering the ticky marks on the wall, unless those marks aren't counting down days, but keeping track of something else.

I'm not so sure he was expecting a replacement because when the "alarms" went off signaling an intruder, that's when Desmond stopped his normal routine and sprang into action, getting into the jumpsuit, grabbing the gun, looking at the cameras, etc. If he was expecting someone, I'm not sure he would have acted like that.

yes, what did the snowman say to the other snowman....

thanks :biggrin:

Since we've already seen Hurley in the preview for next week. I'd assume the numbers are going to hit him in a WHOLE new way in the next couple episodes. Hurley definitely has the strongest ties to the numbers and they are plastered ALL OVER the hatch. Plus, the synopsis for 2-04 says that Hurley has a difficult task relating to the numbers.

thanks :biggrin:


didn't Hurley tell the snowman joke to someone in Season One ?

I think Desmond is down there, from the giant Y2K scare, and he was forgotten about...

I'm not so sure he was expecting a replacement because when the "alarms" went off signaling an intruder, that's when Desmond stopped his normal routine and sprang into action, getting into the jumpsuit, grabbing the gun, looking at the cameras, etc. If he was expecting someone, I'm not sure he would have acted like that.

Hmmm, very true. But at the same time, he did ask him that code question- so he was at least hoping it was someone he should be expecting.

What did one snowman say to the other snowman?
Do you smell carrots?

I think Desmond is definitely expecting a replacement, or a ride home. It seems like he's been waiting awhile (though nowhere near 16 years), depending on routine and exercise to take his mind off of the loneliness and boredom. (Last episode I thought he had had a roommate down there, but after last night I've changed my mind.)

I'm fascinated to find out how he got there. He's really starting to grow on me, I hope they keep him around for occasional appearances a la Danielle. (If someone knows whether or not they are going to do that, don't tell me! I'm trying to stay as unspoiled as I can.)

when some of yall said it was might be hurly, in the commercial after the show that showed whats going to happen on next weeks show i could of swore i saw hurlly in the hatch or walk into the hatch....or whatever. did anybody catch that?

I got a feeling that there are two "Locke's" from the way he asked "Are you him". As if he recognised Locke but didn't trust him.

didn't Hurley tell the snowman joke to someone in Season One ?

I think Desmond is down there, from the giant Y2K scare, and he was forgotten about...

Are you thinking of Michael's penquin joke?

I'm not so sure he was expecting a replacement because when the "alarms" went off signaling an intruder, that's when Desmond stopped his normal routine and sprang into action, getting into the jumpsuit, grabbing the gun, looking at the cameras, etc. If he was expecting someone, I'm not sure he would have acted like that.

He probably wouldn't be expecting his replacement to come knocking with a stick of dynamite...

I can't see Hurley being a replacement though. Whoever "him" is, it would be someone who knows that Desmond is in the hatch and who has the answer to the snowman question. Either Hurley is putting on a great act or he doesn't know anything about what's in the hatch.

Unless he's a "sleeper". Maybe the numbers have programmed the snowman answer into his brain and sent him to the island.

Nah.

He probably wouldn't be expecting his replacement to come knocking with a stick of dynamite...

I can't see Hurley being a replacement though. Whoever "him" is, it would be someone who knows that Desmond is in the hatch and who has the answer to the snowman question. Either Hurley is putting on a great act or he doesn't know anything about what's in the hatch.

Unless he's a "sleeper". Maybe the numbers have programmed the snowman answer into his brain and sent him to the island.

Nah.
What about Ethan being "him"? We still have no idea what Ethan was doing on the island nor what his motivations were. IF Ethan is "him" it will be interesting to see Desmond's reaction when he finds out that Ethan has been killed.

I am basing my theory on the fantastic physical conditioning that both Ethan and Desmond have been displaying. What are the chances that two apparently disconnected individuals both have conditioning far above the norm?

Just a thought.

It's been a lot of years, and he only met Jack for a few minutes one day at the stadium. Who's to say he *would* remember jack? The meeting was much more memorable for Jack, considering its relevance to his future wife's physical condition. Desmond ( IF this is the same Desmond... ) will probably recognize him if Jack reminds him, but I wouldn't necessarily expect it.

I'm not so sure he was expecting a replacement because when the "alarms" went off signaling an intruder, that's when Desmond stopped his normal routine and sprang into action, getting into the jumpsuit, grabbing the gun, looking at the cameras, etc. If he was expecting someone, I'm not sure he would have acted like that.

The only thing that alerted him to an intruder was the explosion. There was no alarm before he sprang into action.

I think that he was expecting somebody to come. That person (replacement, supply man, messaih, whatever), never did come. Any communication that he may have had has been severed, and he is assuming that the outside world (anything away from the island) is gone.

when some of yall said it was might be hurly, in the commercial after the show that showed whats going to happen on next weeks show i could of swore i saw hurlly in the hatch or walk into the hatch....or whatever. did anybody catch that?

Yes I caught that, it was Hurley in the hatch looking all confused and amased at what he was seeing,, or either he was going crazy againg..

"Are you him" is from a funny scene in the movie "Scrooged" where Bill Murray waits for the next ghost to visit him, he's seeing things, and he grabs the waiter asking several times, "Are you him?" The waiter bends down as if to reveal himself as the next ghost only to reply, "Are you he", correcting Murray's English.

But I digress. It seemed to me that Desmond was waiting for his replacement who is apparently very, very late arriving.

Eh, I still think its debateable, he didn't recognize him from the spyglass and he wasn't quick to say "Hey jack!" or anything like that. I think our ideas last week about him bringing Jack to island are false. I think this is all just a coincidence.
You may be right. I've had more time to think on it. But that little gleam in his eye ... I just can't toss that away. :39:

But I definetly think that Desmond is working for someone bigger than he is. Possibly it's that someone that brought the plane to the island because Desmond didn't even know about the crash!

There's a good idea. Maybe he's been broadcasting the numbers out over the airwaves.
I don't think he's broadcasting the numbers. We clearly saw that the numbers reset the timer (whatever it's for ... ). I don't think they've been sent outside of his bunker.

omg, after that extra RIVETTING episode, I was preparing to come to the 'lage and post up a STORM today (and I still might), but then something happened in my 'hood and I ended up being up waaaaaaaaaay too late with waaaaaaaay too much cortisol coursing through my veins, so now I'm exhausted and not able to form a coherent thought, but I just HAVE to comment in this thread!!!!! I was going to do a thread and entitle it "Are you him?" if no one else had! I totally have a theory here! Speculation ahead...

When Desmond said "Are you him?", and because of the deferential, almost awestruck way in which he said it, I definitely got the feeling that maybe what is going on in the underground society is some sort of CULT, like a doomsday cult!!!! The "doomsday" part of my theory came in later when Desmond seemed genuinely thrown by the fact that the world is still out there and Locke was on a flight from Sydney to LA, life going on as normal. Apparently, Desmond had been led to believe that the world apart from the underground society there has ENDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think the "him" Desmond was hoping for is the leader of this doomsday/utopian cult, someone who is supposed to come there at some point (maybe once the outside world has truly ended) and begin this wonderful new society in earnest?

I'm still hanging onto my bioexperimentation theory but instead of a military angle, I've been leaning towards a privately funded, international corporate angle for a while now, and now we have this whole new added dimension (that is what the LOST team is so fabulous at: added dimensions galore!!!!!!!!!) of maybe it isn't just experimentation funded for the sake of future profits, but maybe for some idealistic, cult-like vision of a future utopian society once the world above reaches a doomsday scenario? LAST NIGHT'S EPISODE ROCKED!!!!

P.S. Are you him? What did one snowman say to the other snowman? ...:crybaby: YOU'RE NOT HIM!
That is a good theory, Lockefan! A cult can work, too, from what we've seen so far. But I'm still debating that he didn't say "world still up there" but said "are they ALL still up there?" because when he said that, he and Locke were talking about the crash and number of survivors and then he went into the bit about asking if any of them had gotten sick. It makes more sense that he was asking if the rest of the survivors were still up there ... alive.

But I am so happy that you liked this eppy as much as I did. I'm shocked that there are at least 2 threads dissing this eppy as boring! Shocking, just shocking!

I'm not so sure he was expecting a replacement because when the "alarms" went off signaling an intruder, that's when Desmond stopped his normal routine and sprang into action, getting into the jumpsuit, grabbing the gun, looking at the cameras, etc. If he was expecting someone, I'm not sure he would have acted like that.
But he obviously was expecting someone but he still went into stealth mode. So, I don't that his attack reaction had anything to do with it. Until he saw Locke, he thought he had been infiltrated.

Didn't Desmand say to Jack on the stairs of the stadium, "I am training for a race around the world" or something to that effect. Could he have meant that he was racing time to get to the bunker before the world ended.

I think Desmond is definitely expecting a replacement, or a ride home. It seems like he's been waiting awhile (though nowhere near 16 years), depending on routine and exercise to take his mind off of the loneliness and boredom. (Last episode I thought he had had a roommate down there, but after last night I've changed my mind.)

I'm fascinated to find out how he got there. He's really starting to grow on me, I hope they keep him around for occasional appearances a la Danielle. (If someone knows whether or not they are going to do that, don't tell me! I'm trying to stay as unspoiled as I can.)
I'm with you! I'm totally taken by Desmond. :biggrin: I would hope, too, that they keep him around like Danielle. But I also don't want any spoilers! But if they kill him off, it's going to be a real drag. :frown:

Maybe he didn't have a room mate already but perhaps the "him" he was expecting was a room mate/partner.

What about Ethan being "him"? We still have no idea what Ethan was doing on the island nor what his motivations were. IF Ethan is "him" it will be interesting to see Desmond's reaction when he finds out that Ethan has been killed.

I am basing my theory on the fantastic physical conditioning that both Ethan and Desmond have been displaying. What are the chances that two apparently disconnected individuals both have conditioning far above the norm?

Just a thought.
I hear this theory in other places on the board but I don't see any proof that Desmond is super strong. Sure, he works out, but his body is not in rock-hard shape (notice the detail of his chest and abdomen while he's mixing the shake in the blender). He has a soft body but with a fair amount of muscle. Just looks like he works out daily to keep in shape since he goes nowhere. But, still, Ethan might have been who Desmond was waiting for but where was Ethan hanging out all that time and where did he get what he tried to inject into Claire's belly? Is there another hatch?

Didn't Desmand say to Jack on the stairs of the stadium, "I am training for a race around the world" or something to that effect. Could he have meant that he was racing time to get to the bunker before the world ended.
I find it really interesting that when Desmond first meets Jack, he seems so optimistic and spiritual and then, in the hatch's bunker, he seems wild and scared as if he's lost that faith that he had when speaking with Jack. I think that's a clue ... to what yet, I dunno'.

I find it really interesting that when Desmond first meets Jack, he seems so optimistic and spiritual and then, in the hatch's bunker, he seems wild and scared as if he's lost that faith that he had when speaking with Jack. I think that's a clue ... to what yet, I dunno'.
Yeah, I think that was part of the point of the flashback, to make us wonder, "How did such a vibrant, positive person end up stuck in a quarantine bunker on some godforsaken island in the middle of nowhere with a small arsenal?" I'm dying to find out.

Amazing how after bits of two episodes, Desmond has more personality and nuance than characters in other long-running hit series.

when some of yall said it was might be hurly, in the commercial after the show that showed whats going to happen on next weeks show i could of swore i saw hurlly in the hatch or walk into the hatch....or whatever. did anybody catch that?

Yes, Hurley is seen walking through a doorway that has two objects on the floor that have the symbols on them.:)

Hey guys....not to be a nudge, but as it says in the Announcement at the top of the thread, the preview is a spoiler and should be fonted as such. Thanks. :-)

Sorry

something not mentioned is the gun. Not sure if it is relevant or not but the gun looked like an AK-47. Now given all the stuff Desmond has been issued with down there (the shots, the food, etc) it would be safe to assume he'd be issued with the gun too. But the gun isn't an American issue gun so could we assume that he's been put down there as part of another goverment?

Yeah, I think that was part of the point of the flashback, to make us wonder, "How did such a vibrant, positive person end up stuck in a quarantine bunker on some godforsaken island in the middle of nowhere with a small arsenal?" I'm dying to find out.

Amazing how after bits of two episodes, Desmond has more personality and nuance than characters in other long-running hit series.
Stack it up to the amazing writers! They really have a finger on the pulse of what real people are all about!

something not mentioned is the gun. Not sure if it is relevant or not but the gun looked like an AK-47. Now given all the stuff Desmond has been issued with down there (the shots, the food, etc) it would be safe to assume he'd be issued with the gun too. But the gun isn't an American issue gun so could we assume that he's been put down there as part of another goverment?
I know nothing about guns but since Desmond is Scottish, I think that's a good assumption ... even if when we first met him he was in America. The symbol on the shirt he was wearing when meeting Jack also has a Scottish connection. It's for the Free Masons of Scotland.

I know nothing about guns but since Desmond is Scottish, I think that's a good assumption ... even if when we first met him he was in America. The symbol on the shirt he was wearing when meeting Jack also has a Scottish connection. It's for the Free Masons of Scotland.

Well, as a military Weapons Tech in the past, I'd have to say...all things being equal, if I had to choose a gun to give someone who would be without direct support for a lenghty period of time, it would be the AK-47. Extremely reliable and hard to break. Also of large enough calibre that it could be used to take down big game (say... polar bears).

My $0.02 on the choice of gun.

For the gun angle, check out the thread in the first episode forum.

Desmond definatley has been led to think that the world above has been ended, contaminated, destroyed in some way. He is stockpiled expecting to 'hide' in the bunker to wait it out.

Cult? Naw...cult's are not that damn organized.

I know nothing about guns but since Desmond is Scottish, I think that's a good assumption ... even if when we first met him he was in America. The symbol on the shirt he was wearing when meeting Jack also has a Scottish connection. It's for the Free Masons of Scotland.
Wow, I didn't catch that. From what I know of Scottish Freemasonry, the order traces its origins to the Knights Templar, so named because of their affiliation with the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem. Legend has it that the Knights rescued something (the Ark of the Covenant? Knowledge of a lost civilization?) from the ruins of the Temple during the Crusades, and that from that stems many of the rituals of modern Freemasonry. Could this island have some connection to that lost knowledge?

Any Masons on the board might be able to enlighten us or speculate further.

Oh, I read about that in Dan Brown books. But I don't know how much is fact and how much is fiction. That was Angels and Demons, wasn't it?

Oh, I read about that in Dan Brown books. But I don't know how much is fact and how much is fiction. That was Angels and Demons, wasn't it?
I read about it, IIRC, in a book called "Uriel's Machine", which would probably be classified as "speculative non-fiction". It was by a couple of UK Masons who had done some research into this stuff and how it tied in with neolithic British calendar sites. You know, like Stonehenge and all? I read books like that a lot, because I'm a total sucker for lost civilization theories.

My memory is not what it once was, so I don't have the details handy, I just remembered that connection, and I think it would actually be cool to see a development like that in Lost. If Desmond is indeed a Mason, and a Scottish Mason at that (I believe the institution started in Scotland), then he's a Mason for a reason.

Never read any Dan Brown, maybe I need to give one of his books a try.

Wow, I didn't catch that. From what I know of Scottish Freemasonry, the order traces its origins to the Knights Templar, so named because of their affiliation with the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem. Legend has it that the Knights rescued something (the Ark of the Covenant? Knowledge of a lost civilization?) from the ruins of the Temple during the Crusades, and that from that stems many of the rituals of modern Freemasonry. Could this island have some connection to that lost knowledge?

Any Masons on the board might be able to enlighten us or speculate further.
I had mentioned Knights Templar in a few earlier threads when only the first eppy had aired. But I can't yet figure how what they were/are supposed to be guarding fits in.

Hurley sounds like an intelligent guess. He knows about the numbers and didn't he tell that snowman joke to someone in season 1? What did one snowman say to the other? Have a ice day!

Does anyone remember that?

I don't think there is any way at all that Jack and Desmond meeting before was a coincidence. There are way too many coincidences... especially the fact that they met in a stadium and that symbol that is all over the hatch and on Desmond's clothing looks just like a stadium. There is some deeper connection there.

Hurley sounds like an intelligent guess. He knows about the numbers and didn't he tell that snowman joke to someone in season 1? What did one snowman say to the other? Have a ice day!

Does anyone remember that?
a lot of people are saying Hurley told that joke in season one but no one seems to be able to point us to it for verification.

I think Desmond is definitely expecting a replacement, or a ride home. It seems like he's been waiting awhile (though nowhere near 16 years), depending on routine and exercise to take his mind off of the loneliness and boredom. (Last episode I thought he had had a roommate down there, but after last night I've changed my mind.)

I don't know... I was thinking maybe Desmond has been down there more than 16 years (though that'd mean Jack would have been a VERY young newly married MD) ...just because of the vinyl record collection and the super old stationary bike, and that dinosaur of a computer... but then I suppose that all that stuff could have already been in the underground biosphere when Desmond got there (to take over for the previous guardian/Knight Templar?). So, okay, it could be alot less than 16 years... (that's just me thinking in circles again)... Then again, those "Apollo" candy bars that Kate found make me think maybe late '60's to early '70's - but their shelf life is probably really long... so they could have been down the hatch before Desmond got there too...

I think that there could be a roommate - did you see how shiny that stainless steel sink was where Desmond was slicing fruit for his power smoothy? Wow, impressively bright & shiny sink... so he either has a roommate... or a maid.

I can't wait to see what happens next...
I had to get Tivo, because my new work schedule came out, and I have night ER shifts EVERY WEDNESDAY NIGHT from next week until who knows when (7pm to 3am wheeee!!!) At least I can watch Lost thursday mornings starting next week :rolleyes:

I don't think anyone's brought this up, but I think that "him" is Walt. It seems he does have special powers, and the Others wanted him, so I think it makes sense that he was brought to the island for a reason, and the Others and Desmond are both expecting him. Also, the black face on the mural could be of Walt, like they predicted he'd come...

I have to go back to season 1, but my understanding is that either Michael or Hurley told Walt the snowman joke - so he would know the answer to the test question too (although I don't know how Desmond would know about that...)

The more I think about it, the more I think that Walt is the central character. It's almost like this fantasty world for him, where his father (who was forced to abandon him when he was younger) gets to be close to him again, and then has to rescue him from the Others. He just seems to have control over so many things and happenings on the island - the polar bear, for example (which Michael gave to him as a kid, and then which was also in his comic book); the raft burning; getting so close to Locke and Hurley; appearing to Shannon in the jungle; etc. I don't know, it just seems like this island is connected to him somehow...

Just my ramblings :)

I know nothing about guns but since Desmond is Scottish, I think that's a good assumption ... even if when we first met him he was in America. The symbol on the shirt he was wearing when meeting Jack also has a Scottish connection. It's for the Free Masons of Scotland.


Thanks for all the help!!!!!!!!!!:smile:

Oh, I read about that in Dan Brown books. But I don't know how much is fact and how much is fiction. That was Angels and Demons, wasn't it?

For what it's worth, I come from a Freemason family, and Brown put his own spin on Freemasonry (as well as the (fake) Priory of Scion and Opus Dei in The Da Vinci Code). He basically used standard anti-Mason conspiracy theories as basis for his plots. I don't recommend taking his writings on such societies as fact. ;)

Back on topic, I'm not exactly privy to Freemason secrets (maybe one day...?), but people seem to link them with international conspiracies. I think a better place to start researching secret societies and conspiracy would be the Illuminati.

OMG! I wondered what that was! A lot of my own speculation right now is revolving around the numbers, and especially this quote I saw from Damon:

The only number was always sort of a key number was 23, and anybody who knows anything about Robert Anton Wilson or any of his writing can read into that what they will. That's an important number in terms of the scheme of the show.

So it's easy to connect the dots from there to Freemasonry and imaginary secret societies... that seems like something the creators would gleefully throw into the mix.


I don't understand the reference to 23, dangerdork. Could you give more background? Thanks!

I don't think anyone's brought this up, but I think that "him" is Walt. It seems he does have special powers, and the Others wanted him, so I think it makes sense that he was brought to the island for a reason, and the Others and Desmond are both expecting him. Also, the black face on the mural could be of Walt, like they predicted he'd come...

I have to go back to season 1, but my understanding is that either Michael or Hurley told Walt the snowman joke - so he would know the answer to the test question too (although I don't know how Desmond would know about that...)

The more I think about it, the more I think that Walt is the central character. It's almost like this fantasty world for him, where his father (who was forced to abandon him when he was younger) gets to be close to him again, and then has to rescue him from the Others. He just seems to have control over so many things and happenings on the island - the polar bear, for example (which Michael gave to him as a kid, and then which was also in his comic book); the raft burning; getting so close to Locke and Hurley; appearing to Shannon in the jungle; etc. I don't know, it just seems like this island is connected to him somehow...

Just my ramblings :)

But if Desmond thought Locke was Walt and the black face on the mural might be Walt ... why would Desmond think it's Locke? Locke surely isn't black!

Actually, I'm almost 100% sure that the symbol on his shirt in the stadium scene is the same symbol that's on the hatch and his jumpsuits and everything else -- Most people wouldn't have noticed it at the time because they didn't know to look for it - but if someone wants to go back and take a look at the scene or can come up with a screen capture of that scene to find out for sure, PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!! :smile:
No, they're totally different. I've seen caps of both (here in threads from the first eppy). The stadium shirt has a 2 headed Falcon within a pentagon shape (that looks hand drawn). The emblem for Desmon's jumpsuit is a white swan dividing a circle all within an octagon shape. Not the same at all.

Sounds like you know more about it than most Masons I know. and since Dan Brown prepped the market with the Da Vinci Code, the market is ripe for a nice Illuminati connection. You mentioned the Freemason / Templar connection (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1559701269/qid=1128044341/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0756673-3191930?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) and the recovery of the Ark of The Covenant... well, here's a wild-*** theory.

The Templars, supposedly the predecessors of the Freemasons, indisputably were guarding some secret buried beneath the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem, during the Crusades. Most people speculate it was the Ark of the Covenenant. And we all remember from Raiders of the Lost Ark just how powerful an artifact that is.

Stay with me here.

In the bestseller The Sign and the Seal (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671865412/qid=1128044833/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-0756673-3191930?v=glance&s=books), Graham Hancock lays out a well-researched case that in ancient times, Menelik, the son of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, spirited away the Ark of the Covenant from the Holy of Holies in the Temple in Jerusalem to a secret location in Ethiopia, where it remains to this day.

Now, this was many centuries before the Crusaders came along. What if the secret that the Knights Templar discovered beneath the Temple of Solomon was not the presence of the Ark of the Covenant, but its absence? There is historical evidence in The Sign and the Seal (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671865412/qid=1128044833/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-0756673-3191930?v=glance&s=books) that the Templars did go traipsing off to Ethiopia in search of it.

What the hell, I can hear you all asking, does this have to do with Lost? Well, let's connect some more dots. Desmond's shirt tells us he may be a Scottish Freemason (the oldest and most esoteric kind). Freemasons, many believe, are the keepers of the Templar secrets. And the Illuminati, with their esoteric connection to the number 23, are nothing but a secret, elite society within Freemasonry.

So let's stipulate that maybe this is one of the ancient Templar secrets kept by the Masons / Illuminati. What if the Templars, or even better, some of their Freemason descendants, actually found the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia? And at some point, say oh, a couple hundred years ago, they decided to move it? The Templars who founded Freemasonry were notorious sailors and even pirates. Look up the history of the Jolly Roger sometime. Perhaps they sent one of their ships to Ethiopia, in Eastern Africa, to move it somewhere more remote... their ship, The Black Rock.

Take the ball and run with it from there.

So that's my own, original pet nutbar theory. Take it or leave it, but it would make one hell of a good show wouldn't it?

I like this theory. The Masons have an honorable history of taking the starring role in elaborate conspiracy theories. See, for example, Umberto Eco's classic novel of the conspiratorial mind, "Foucault's Pendulum." The only group that may be better for that purpose is the Society of Jesus (the Jesuits).

For what it's worth, I come from a Freemason family, and Brown put his own spin on Freemasonry (as well as the (fake) Priory of Scion and Opus Dei in The Da Vinci Code). He basically used standard anti-Mason conspiracy theories as basis for his plots. I don't recommend taking his writings on such societies as fact. ;)

Back on topic, I'm not exactly privy to Freemason secrets (maybe one day...?), but people seem to link them with international conspiracies. I think a better place to start researching secret societies and conspiracy would be the Illuminati.
Oh definitely The Da Vinci Code is fiction. Just for the record, my thoughts on any possible connection with Desmond, the hatch and the Freemasons has nothing to do with The Da Vinci Code.

the Illuminati is a much better source.

Actually, I'm almost 100% sure that the symbol on his shirt in the stadium scene is the same symbol that's on the hatch and his jumpsuits and everything else -- Most people wouldn't have noticed it at the time because they didn't know to look for it - but if someone wants to go back and take a look at the scene or can come up with a screen capture of that scene to find out for sure, PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!! :smile:
Here ya go. http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=desshirt2lo.jpg

Looks like a two-headed griffin in a pentagon shape to me.

Sounds like you know more about it than most Masons I know. and since Dan Brown prepped the market with the Da Vinci Code, the market is ripe for a nice Illuminati connection. You mentioned the Freemason / Templar connection (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1559701269/qid=1128044341/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0756673-3191930?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) and the recovery of the Ark of The Covenant... well, here's a wild-*** theory.

The Templars, supposedly the predecessors of the Freemasons, indisputably were guarding some secret buried beneath the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem, during the Crusades. Most people speculate it was the Ark of the Covenenant. And we all remember from Raiders of the Lost Ark just how powerful an artifact that is.

Stay with me here.

In the bestseller The Sign and the Seal (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671865412/qid=1128044833/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-0756673-3191930?v=glance&s=books), Graham Hancock lays out a well-researched case that in ancient times, Menelik, the son of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, spirited away the Ark of the Covenant from the Holy of Holies in the Temple in Jerusalem to a secret location in Ethiopia, where it remains to this day.

Now, this was many centuries before the Crusaders came along. What if the secret that the Knights Templar discovered beneath the Temple of Solomon was not the presence of the Ark of the Covenant, but its absence? There is historical evidence in The Sign and the Seal (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671865412/qid=1128044833/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-0756673-3191930?v=glance&s=books) that the Templars did go traipsing off to Ethiopia in search of it.

What the hell, I can hear you all asking, does this have to do with Lost? Well, let's connect some more dots. Desmond's shirt tells us he may be a Scottish Freemason (the oldest and most esoteric kind). Freemasons, many believe, are the keepers of the Templar secrets. And the Illuminati, with their esoteric connection to the number 23, are nothing but a secret, elite society within Freemasonry.

So let's stipulate that maybe this is one of the ancient Templar secrets kept by the Masons / Illuminati. What if the Templars, or even better, some of their Freemason descendants, actually found the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia? And at some point, say oh, a couple hundred years ago, they decided to move it? The Templars who founded Freemasonry were notorious sailors and even pirates. Look up the history of the Jolly Roger sometime. Perhaps they sent one of their ships to Ethiopia, in Eastern Africa, to move it somewhere more remote... their ship, The Black Rock.

Take the ball and run with it from there.

So that's my own, original pet nutbar theory. Take it or leave it, but it would make one hell of a good show wouldn't it?

I like this theory, too. While I'm not sure, though, that the writers would go to the point of sticking to that particular story (since it's not really an original one). I do think they could be using it as a basis for their storyline. The fact that the shirt Desmond wears in the staidum is the Scottish Freemason emblem, does connect it to the Knights Templar.

But now who did Desmon think Locke was? I know too little of the Freemasons to understand who that might be. Can you shed some speculative light on that?

Here ya go. http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=desshirt2lo.jpg

Looks like a two-headed griffin in a pentagon shape to me.
No linon's tail to be a griffin. It's a falcon. :smile:

No linon's tail to be a griffin. It's a falcon. :smile:

Could be :) I just assumed the tail was hidden behind the spread wings.

Sooooooo, any hints what it is? I searched the net for a symbol like that with no success to date.

How's this (http://www.scottishritemasons-can.org/) for a match?
Yes! I knew it! Good find, danger!!

Now we know that Desmond is some how connected to the origins of the Freemasons. Now, does the symbol on his jumpsuit tie into it or is that made-up for the show?

If he is a Freemason, I think he would have been asking Locke if he was his contact. Someone that is supposed to come to give him his next orders or direction. But who can that be? A real person or someone made up for the show?

LOST has used real people in season one (the man that Sawyer head butted was a real politician of Australia - not the actor, but the man he was playing).

How's this (http://www.scottishritemasons-can.org/) for a match?

Looks pretty darn good! :)

And the slash/hatch marks forming a pentagon around it on his shirt? (No pun intended there---just hatch marks seems to best discribed that lines around the symbol on his shirt...at least to me.)

Yes! I knew it! Good find, danger!!

Now we know that Desmond is some how connected to the origins of the Freemasons. Now, does the symbol on his jumpsuit tie into it or is that made-up for the show?
I'm still not convinced but ok for the time being ;)

If he is a Freemason, I think he would have been asking Locke if he was his contact. Someone that is supposed to come to give him his next orders or direction.
Masons are men's territory and being female I admit I know zelch about it but don't they have some secret handshake or something? I'm not being sarcastic, honest, just asking....but then again, guess it is hard to offer your hand for a secret handshake when you are pointing a weapon at someone.

Something I thought I'd throw out there:

In Stephen King's The Stand (book about a man-made killer plague for those living in holes), the antagonist/devil man/whatever-you-want-to-call-him was often refered to as "him"

Wellllll.... as elaborated in this thread (http://http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=20206&page=2), each angle of a pentagon is 108 degrees.
The link didn't work for me but I get the point! Thanks:smile: that makes sense.

Ever wonder if all the writers are sitting laughing at us and just how many wild goose chases they have sent us on? Don't know about you but I can't help picking it apart and have been since this time last year.

How to the Masons fit in with all this Dharma stuff? More food for thought. (Just wondering out loud *ahem* via the keyboard.)

I'm gonna be up all night! AGAIN!

ROTFL *big grin*

Well, Danger, calling it a night here. :smile: Enjoyed the musing over the puzzlement with ya.
Night.

Looks pretty darn good! :)

And the slash/hatch marks forming a pentagon around it on his shirt? (No pun intended there---just hatch marks seems to best discribed that lines around the symbol on his shirt...at least to me.)
I think the term you're thinking of is "hash" marks. Those are like the hash marks on the wall and mural ... for counting off days.

Thanks, fixed that link (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=20206).


What's even worse, what if somebody guesses RIGHT and they change the story because of it. That would stink.


I'm gonna be up all night! AGAIN!
They love that we do this as much as we love doing it! I doubt they'd change anything if we guess it. That's not what it's all about. But too bad we don't win something if we get it right ... like maybe a week's paid vacation with the Lostaway of our choice on some ... tropical isle. ;)

Here is how Dr. Besant defined the term DHARMA in a 1902 lecture:

"WHEN the nations of the earth were sent forth one after the other, a special word was given by God to each, the word which each was to say to the world, the peculiar word from the Eternal which each one was to speak. As we glance over the history of the nations, we can hear resounding from the collective mouth of the people this word, spoken out in action, the contribution of that nation to the ideal and perfect humanity. To Egypt in old days, the word was Religion; to Persia the word was Purity; to Chaldea the word was Science; to Greece the word was Beauty; to Rome the word was Law; and to India, the eldest-born of His children, to India He gave a word that summed up the whole in one, the word Dharma. That is the word of India to the world."

And when Dr. Besant felt a greater need to emphasize the requirement of a belief in God or a Supreme Being to the indoctrination to Co-Casonry, it was the Dharma ritual which was added to the charter.
***
So much for the history lesson, we'll try to tie this in to LOST somehow tomorrow.
So, then it's Eastern and not Asian as we thought?

Here ya go. http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=desshirt2lo.jpg

Looks like a two-headed griffin in a pentagon shape to me.

AH HAH!!!! I KNEW IT!!!

J K Rowling has teamed up with the Lost creators and the "Him" that Desmond is waiting for is in fact....DUN DUN DUUUUUN.........HARRY POTTER!!!!

Sorry I couldn'thelp it :redface:

Sounds like you know more about it than most Masons I know. and since Dan Brown prepped the market with the Da Vinci Code, the market is ripe for a nice Illuminati connection. You mentioned the Freemason / Templar connection (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1559701269/qid=1128044341/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0756673-3191930?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) and the recovery of the Ark of The Covenant... well, here's a wild-*** theory.

The Templars, supposedly the predecessors of the Freemasons, indisputably were guarding some secret buried beneath the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem, during the Crusades. Most people speculate it was the Ark of the Covenenant. And we all remember from Raiders of the Lost Ark just how powerful an artifact that is.

Stay with me here.

In the bestseller The Sign and the Seal (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671865412/qid=1128044833/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-0756673-3191930?v=glance&s=books), Graham Hancock lays out a well-researched case that in ancient times, Menelik, the son of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, spirited away the Ark of the Covenant from the Holy of Holies in the Temple in Jerusalem to a secret location in Ethiopia, where it remains to this day.

Now, this was many centuries before the Crusaders came along. What if the secret that the Knights Templar discovered beneath the Temple of Solomon was not the presence of the Ark of the Covenant, but its absence? There is historical evidence in The Sign and the Seal (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671865412/qid=1128044833/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-0756673-3191930?v=glance&s=books) that the Templars did go traipsing off to Ethiopia in search of it.

What the hell, I can hear you all asking, does this have to do with Lost? Well, let's connect some more dots. Desmond's shirt tells us he may be a Scottish Freemason (the oldest and most esoteric kind). Freemasons, many believe, are the keepers of the Templar secrets. And the Illuminati, with their esoteric connection to the number 23, are nothing but a secret, elite society within Freemasonry.

So let's stipulate that maybe this is one of the ancient Templar secrets kept by the Masons / Illuminati. What if the Templars, or even better, some of their Freemason descendants, actually found the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia? And at some point, say oh, a couple hundred years ago, they decided to move it? The Templars who founded Freemasonry were notorious sailors and even pirates. Look up the history of the Jolly Roger sometime. Perhaps they sent one of their ships to Ethiopia, in Eastern Africa, to move it somewhere more remote... their ship, The Black Rock.

Take the ball and run with it from there.

So that's my own, original pet nutbar theory. Take it or leave it, but it would make one hell of a good show wouldn't it?

Ooh, I love this theory. I read "The Sign and the Seal" years ago, too, and couldn't put it down. I also recommend Hancock's "Fingerprints of the Gods".

AH HAH!!!! I KNEW IT!!!

J K Rowling has teamed up with the Lost creators and the "Him" that Desmond is waiting for is in fact....DUN DUN DUUUUUN.........HARRY POTTER!!!!

Sorry I couldn'thelp it :redface:


....and the amazing part is that THAT isn't even the most far-fetched theory I've heard on The Fuselage!!!!

:rolleyes:

It's Hurley. He wanted to go off somewhere far away so his family would be safe...

Well, India is Eastern. Most of Asia's major religions have their roots in India, just as most of Western religion can be traced back to the Arabic region of the Middle East.

Taoism, though, originated in China if I'm not mistaken. And the symbol with "Dharma" written across it definitely reeks of the I-Ching and yin and yang.
Yes, it does resemble the Ying Yang symbol a lot. So what then would be the connection between China's religion and India's?

Maybe Mr. Abrams et. al. are subliminally encouraging their viewers to go out and learn more about the great religious and spiritual traditions of the world. :smile:
danger, your comment with the word "world" got me to thinking.

Desmond told Jack that he was in training for a "race around the world." We know (from Jack's hospital badge) that the year was 1997. So, I did a Google search for "race around the world" + 1997 and found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_Ocean_Race#Whitbread_1997_to_1998 Click on the 1997-1998 race (#7) and there are some interesting connections.

One is that the race went through Australia and two, it went through San Sebastiao, Chile. San Sebastiao = St. Sebastian, the name of Jack's hospital.

Perhaps it's nothing but I found the two connections quite interesting!

Wow, I really like this idea! For some reason a boat race would never have occurred to me! I don't know about the specific connections, cuz it looks like the general route would put them close to both Australia and the Lost Island every year. But it provides a great explanation for Desmond being there! I personally thought there was going to be time travel or alternate universes involved - this would be a lot less controversial and let ABC keep selling cars and soda!
I don't think LOST is going to resort to time travel or alternate universes because the producers have said that it can all be explained with simple normal explanations.

But I couldn't find any reference to anything else that would possibly connect Desmond to this race. There were no entries from Scotland, no captains named Desmond (though I didn't find a list of crew), nor did I find any numbers that matched up with the numbers and it doesn't explain why Desmond is so well furnished in his bunker beneath the hatch. But I did like the two connections I found.

RIGHT. well good luck to them on that. Locke's mysterious cure? Walt's powers? The black clouds that chase people around? The only "simple normal" explanation left would be the beyond-cliché "It was all a dream / drug-induced hallucination." If that turns out to be the case, then the best thing I can say about the hours I've invested in watching the show up to this point is -- I will be cured forever of wasting my time on watching television.
Oh ... I don't know. We aren't the writers. It might be so simple that when the show finally does end we'll all be sitting there during the final credits with our mouths hanging open! :24:

I don't think they would use a real ship or crew, but they might invent a fictitious entry into the race. And what if the race is just a cover to provide Desmond with someone to sponsor his transportation to the island?
I kind of thought that way, too. But I didn't think about the sponsorship angle. But still, I don't think Desmond has stocked his bunker and there are new items added of late (like the new washer and dryer). He didn't go out and get those ... someone on the outside has had them delivered. That makes me think that if the project has been abandoned, it's only just happened.

Well, Jane, we can only hope right? I for one am hoping that it will be aliens or Illuminati or time travel or all of the above, that would be a blast! But it would risk turning off a significant portion of the audience, and thus lose ratings, and thus drive down the profits on advertising time. :mad: I'm SO afraid that those forces are going to ruin the potential of this show...

On the BRIGHT side, to the writers said that there was a simple, normal explanation. Aren't these the same writers who planted a fake, inaccurate script page in a "secret" page of the LOST website and then went out and plastered the "secret password" to that "secret" page through dozens of channels anonymously, ALL just to misdirect us? hmmmmmmm......
I never heard of that! LOL Maybe someone was getting to close to figuring it all out? ;)


Yeah, I get the sense that the bunker has been there since the 60s. And Desmond doesn't look old enough to have even been alive since it's been there. Thus the time travel angle.
Yeah, Desmond looks like he's in his 30s (he was 33 a year or so ago ... Henry, that is) so he surely hasn't been/couldn't have been down there from its beginnings. And while I am a HUGE fan of time travel stories ... I don't want that to be it. It's to simple and too easy a way out. I want to see how the writers & JJ have managed to take something simple and spin it into this massive web of mystery!

Back to the original question, "Are you him?" I'd like to throw something out that has been on my mind. I keep coming to Locke as central to the mystery... in a way. Do we KNOW for a certainty that he was disabled? His survival skills and personality fit a trained military person. Perhaps one involved in black operations. Perhaps being a disabled worker in a box factory was a cover. After the plane crash, the cover was no longer necessary. He can walk on the island because he could always walk. If we accept that he is actually a spy-type, it's not inconceivable that over the years he had heard tales of some operation going on at some island in the middle of nowhere. Tall tale stuff. Now, because of the crash, he's actually on the island. Major coincidence to be sure... but possible and plausible... and a "normal" explanation. OK. So here he is lost on some island and strange stuff starts happening. It begins to dawn on him where he is. When he saw the "dinosaur" he smiled. He recognized it. He's totally sanguine with the island and its weirdness because he knows what it is. He went right for the hatch because he knew what he'd find inside. So, when Desmond asks, "Are you him?" Locke answers "Yes" because he knows who "him" is and that this would be a correct answer. Locke always tells the others to (paraphrase) "work with the island." Also, in the preview of next week he says (paraphrase)
This isn't how it's supposed to be!
which I believe he has said in the past. How does he know? ...unless he knows.

To coin a phrase, I believe Locke is the key.

BTW... has it occured that The Others want the children to protect them from the "disease" rather than for nefarious reasons?

Back to the original question, "Are you him?" I'd like to throw something out that has been on my mind. I keep coming to Locke as central to the mystery... in a way. Do we KNOW for a certainty that he was disabled? His survival skills and personality fit a trained military person. Perhaps one involved in black operations. Perhaps being a disabled worker in a box factory was a cover. After the plane crash, the cover was no longer necessary. He can walk on the island because he could always walk. If we accept that he is actually a spy-type, it's not inconceivable that over the years he had heard tales of some operation going on at some island in the middle of nowhere. Tall tale stuff. Now, because of the crash, he's actually on the island. Major coincidence to be sure... but possible and plausible... and a "normal" explanation. OK. So here he is lost on some island and strange stuff starts happening. It begins to dawn on him where he is. When he saw the "dinosaur" he smiled. He recognized it. He's totally sanguine with the island and its weirdness because he knows what it is. He went right for the hatch because he knew what he'd find inside. So, when Desmond asks, "Are you him?" Locke answers "Yes" because he knows who "him" is and that this would be a correct answer. Locke always tells the others to (paraphrase) "work with the island." Also, in the preview of next week he says (paraphrase)
This isn't how it's supposed to be!
which I believe he has said in the past. How does he know? ...unless he knows.
That theory has been discussed in great length throughout season one. But too many things lead to the fact that Locke was disabled. When he's on the phone with Helen, there is a machine next to his bed that is used to strengthen muscles so that they don't atrified (sp?). No one was in the room with him so there was no reason for him to use the machine unless he needed to strengthen legs that didn't work. The skills that Locke has learned have, most likely, come from books and maybe nature shows. He had been preparing himself for the Walkabout so he probably read up on all of those things. And he told Boone that he had been in a wheelchair before he crashed. There is no reason for him to reveal that once he's on the island because now that he's walking, that "cover" would be pointless. And he began to lose the use of his legs while with Boone on the trek to the plane that fell with Boone in it. No. He truly could not walk before the crash. But just how he got into that condition is still a mystery.

To coin a phrase, I believe Locke is the key.

BTW... has it occured that The Others want the children to protect them from the "disease" rather than for nefarious reasons?
I don't think they are trying to do anything good by taking the children. If they were, I don't think they would have tried to kill those adults on the raft. If they were really trying to save anyone, they could have simply explained the "infection" the island is supposed to have. Jack, being a doctor, would have listened with no problem and maybe even been able to assist in some kind of cure or prevention. No, they're up to no good!

I know nothing about guns but since Desmond is Scottish, I think that's a good assumption ... even if when we first met him he was in America. The symbol on the shirt he was wearing when meeting Jack also has a Scottish connection. It's for the Free Masons of Scotland.

If you look up Freemasonery on Wikepedia it shows the square and compass emblem that they use. It looks like what was crudely drawn on Desmonds shirt (around the 2-headed bird). I think the Freemason/Knights Templar theory is pretty promising. Will they find the Ark of the Covenant in the hatch? Remains to be seen.

If you look up Freemasonery on Wikepedia it shows the square and compass emblem that they use. It looks like what was crudely drawn on Desmonds shirt (around the 2-headed bird). I think the Freemason/Knights Templar theory is pretty promising. Will they find the Ark of the Covenant in the hatch? Remains to be seen.
I couldn't find the image you spoke of. Could you give us a link, please?

But I did find this, under Freemason conspiracy theories: "Freemasonry is a form of Satanism and intends to start Armageddon." This ties in with Desmond asking Locke if the world was still there. Was he expecting doomsday or Armageddon to happen? If he was, then the question he asked Locke, "Are you him?" might imply Christ. Was Desmond actually thinking that Locke was Christ in his second coming? :confused:

AWESOME! Great theory, I would totally buy that. Except....

How would you explain his going to the Outback Walkabout company and keeping up the pretense... and then getting on a plane and going home? Did he have some OTHER ulterior motive for being in Australia that will be revealed in a future flashback?
It would be a pretense that must be maintained for some reason. If he were a "spy-type" it would be vital. (It wouldn't do much good to adopt a cover but drop it for your 2-week vacation!) Or, perhaps you're right, the Walkabout may not have been the true goal of his visit.

That theory has been discussed in great length throughout season one. But too many things lead to the fact that Locke was disabled. When he's on the phone with Helen, there is a machine next to his bed that is used to strengthen muscles so that they don't atrified (sp?). No one was in the room with him so there was no reason for him to use the machine unless he needed to strengthen legs that didn't work. The skills that Locke has learned have, most likely, come from books and maybe nature shows. He had been preparing himself for the Walkabout so he probably read up on all of those things. And he told Boone that he had been in a wheelchair before he crashed. There is no reason for him to reveal that once he's on the island because now that he's walking, that "cover" would be pointless. And he began to lose the use of his legs while with Boone on the trek to the plane that fell with Boone in it. No. He truly could not walk before the crash. But just how he got into that condition is still a mystery.

If Locke is maintaining a false identity (or condition) he would need to make it plausible. The machine could just be a prop to be seen by visitors to his apt. He seems a little to expert at his survival skills to have only read up on them. He's too practiced. Locke was in a wheelchair before the crash. (Whether he needed to be or not.) I don't know his motivation for telling Boone, but it was not a lie. The fact that his legs began to fail out by the airplane is troubling, but Locke isn't a young man anymore.

I'm new to this forum so please forgive me if I cover old ground, but I can't quite accept that the island has mysterious powers of healing. Unless Locke's disability was psychosomatic... or the plane crash somehow readjusted his spine... it seems more likely to me that the reason he can walk on the island is because he could always walk. It seems easier to me to find an explanation for someone keeping up a pretense than explaning how a paraplegic can all-of-a-sudden jump out of his chair. Our proof of his disability comes only from Locke's actions and Locke's words. We've not yet seen, for instance, a doctor saying, "Mr. Locke, I have some bad news..."

Anyway... just a theory that has intrigued me.

If Locke is maintaining a false identity (or condition) he would need to make it plausible. The machine could just be a prop to be seen by visitors to his apt. He seems a little to expert at his survival skills to have only read up on them. He's too practiced. Locke was in a wheelchair before the crash. (Whether he needed to be or not.) I don't know his motivation for telling Boone, but it was not a lie. The fact that his legs began to fail out by the airplane is troubling, but Locke isn't a young man anymore.

I'm new to this forum so please forgive me if I cover old ground, but I can't quite accept that the island has mysterious powers of healing. Unless Locke's disability was psychosomatic... or the plane crash somehow readjusted his spine... it seems more likely to me that the reason he can walk on the island is because he could always walk. It seems easier to me to find an explanation for someone keeping up a pretense than explaning how a paraplegic can all-of-a-sudden jump out of his chair. Our proof of his disability comes only from Locke's actions and Locke's words. We've not yet seen, for instance, a doctor saying, "Mr. Locke, I have some bad news..."

Anyway... just a theory that has intrigued me.
First, Tom, let me apologize if I made you think I was telling you not to discuss it 'cause it's been talked about already. I was just trying to let you know that it's been thought of and hashed out all last season (you can probably find the old threads for some reading up, too) and we've thought of a lot of different angles. :biggrin: I don't think anyone would expect you to have read the whole board before posting. :smile:

The machine could have been a prop for anyone that stopped by except that he turned it off and that implied he had been using it. Also, when Locke first realizes that he can move his feet, the look on his face shows that it's a surprise to him. I know that I brought up the possibility that it was all in his head (but I'm sure I wasn't the first) several months ago. Goodness knows he's been through a lot that would make most people crack so it's very understandable. But here's the rub on that one ... we know by the flashbacks and seeing how young Locke looked when he donated his kidney to his father that he was nowhere near the age he is now. And yet on the Walkabout he tells the guide that he's been in the chair for only 4 years. So, the chances of its being related to the trauma of his father is not too likely. So, either he was hurt (my speculation is that he is the man in the ER who is mistaken for Adam Rutherford and some time after the accident his injuries got so severe that he was eventually confined to the wheelchair) or it's all in his mind ... but then what was the trauma that caused him to lose the use of his legs?

Isn't this show just the BEST? :biggrin:

OK, OK, I know this is an obvious question, but bear with me. If Locke is not "him," then who is, and when is he coming?

When did THAT happen?
danger, do you mean when did I come to that conculsion or when did it happen on the show?

OK, OK, I know this is an obvious question, but bear with me. If Locke is not "him," then who is, and when is he coming?
I don't know, paradise, that's what this thread is kind of talking about. Who did Desmond think Locke was supposed to be. Some think it's Hurley, I think it's someone much higher than him. But not enough clues yet to figure that out yet. :smile:

What about Ethan being "him"? We still have no idea what Ethan was doing on the island nor what his motivations were. IF Ethan is "him" it will be interesting to see Desmond's reaction when he finds out that Ethan has been killed.

I am basing my theory on the fantastic physical conditioning that both Ethan and Desmond have been displaying. What are the chances that two apparently disconnected individuals both have conditioning far above the norm?

Just a thought.

similar to what i thought... that Ethan was sent to relace Desmond, but reneged and started his own little crusade....

and on the look on D's face when Locke tells him how long ago the plane crashed... it looked more to me like maybe he had been doing something 44 days ago and saw a relation.....

I thought the "Mr. Rutherford" died in the E.R. How could that be Locke then, and what made you guess that it was.

Your post sounded like there was an episode that explicitly showed us that Locke was Rutherford.... I'm confused now.
I've seen some really good caps of the man on the gurney in the ER and I think he looks exactly like a younger Locke (as Terry did when we saw him back with his father but a few years older). He is even wearing a white & blue plaid shirt and tan slacks (sound familiar ... Locke dresses the same) and while I don't think it's the same outfit, obviously, it is a similar dress style which I think is a give-away.

Now as to his dying. Ture, he was pronounced dead but on the island 2 people have been brought back to life already. Charlie and Michael (Mike by Sawyer who's not even trained in CPR). If these 2 could be brought back in the adverse conditions in which they died (and yes, they were dead or there wouldn't have been need to get their hearts going again by pounding on their chests), why couldn't a man in an ER/Hospital be brought back with all of the equipment they have on hand? Just because a] we didn't see it happen and b] Jack told Sarah he had died does not mean that he remained dead. Jack was not the attending physican for that man so any changes in his condition would not be reported to him but to the doctor that did assist in the ER. So, since Jack was totally focused on Sarah, it's not unbelievable that he never heard any word on Rutherford's improvement and he certainly wouldn't have asked because he believed him dead.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! :biggrin:

Locke was definately paralized, 1st episode, watch the way he wiggles his big toe, could be Rutherford though. Nice theory JB

danger, your comment with the word "world" got me to thinking.

Desmond told Jack that he was in training for a "race around the world." We know (from Jack's hospital badge) that the year was 1997. So, I did a Google search for "race around the world" + 1997 and found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_Ocean_Race#Whitbread_1997_to_1998 Click on the 1997-1998 race (#7) and there are some interesting connections.

One is that the race went through Australia and two, it went through San Sebastiao, Chile. San Sebastiao = St. Sebastian, the name of Jack's hospital.

Perhaps it's nothing but I found the two connections quite interesting!

There is that boat wrecked off the shore in Danielle's map and still convinced they will go diving this year and that is how Desmond ended up in the hatch. Found an underwater entrance. ( I think there are numerous hatches with all those houses drawn on the mural). And will someone please take a right turn instead of a left and follow that darn cable into the water?

Sorry JB, gotta bust your bubble on this one. If you listen to what's going on in the background of this scene, "Mr. Rutherford" is coding when he arrives in the E.R. (That means the patient's heart has stopped and the medical team IS doing CPR and other interventions). Jack makes a triage decision -- He decides to keep working on Sarah, and can't stop to intubate Mr. Rutherford, a procedure which only he is qualified to do. I thought this was a major plot point, because we see Jack is aware that he has been forced to let another patient die in order to save Sarah. We even hear them very clearly pronouncing Mr Rutherford dead -- "time of death, 8:15" - oooooh, Numbers!

When they pronounce you dead in the ER, that means ain't nobody going to be revivin' ya no more.

EDIT: You were joking weren't you? Duh.

Let me tell you a story. I swear to GOD this is true. I worked as a ward clerk in a major hospital for years. One afternoon I came on shift in Intensive Care, and the girl I was relieving told me the patient in cubicle #11 had died after coding for four hours. Later on in my shift, one of the nurses went in to prepare his body to be taken to the morgue... and a few minutes later I began to hear from behind the curtain things like, "can you wiggle your toes?" She came out a few minutes later, pale and shaken. The patient had woken up -- who had been left unattended since pronounced dead six hours earlier, after hours of heroic effort to revive him. The doctors were unable to explain how this could have happened.

So maybe you were joking... but I know from first hand experience that what you jokingly described can actually happen. The End.
I wasn't joking. And your "true" story proved my point! It can happen and I think it did.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! :biggrin:

Locke was definately paralized, 1st episode, watch the way he wiggles his big toe, could be Rutherford though. Nice theory JB
Yes, he was stunned that he could move his feet!

Let me clarify, I don't think Locke is Rutherford (that wouldn't work because Shannon knows what Rutherford looks like) but I think it was a case of mistaken identity in the ER. That part could be a dozen things. He was borrowing Rutherford's car for some reason and when the accident occured, he had no ID on him (just like Sarah) so they took the car registeration to ID him. How he got in the SUV I don't know. But I do think that who they thought was Adam Rutherford was in fact Locke.

There is that boat wrecked off the shore in Danielle's map and still convinced they will go diving this year and that is how Desmond ended up in the hatch. Found an underwater entrance. ( I think there are numerous hatches with all those houses drawn on the mural). And will someone please take a right turn instead of a left and follow that darn cable into the water?
I think the houses could be other hatches, too.

I don't recall the shipwrecked boat on Danielle's map. Did it show what kind of boat it was or did she say? The reason I ask is that one of my theories on how Desmond got to the island is from a "Race Around the World" boat race that was done in the same year that he met Jack ... 1997 and their route covered Australia and St. Sebastian, Chile (St. Sebastian is the name of Jack's hospital).

I think the houses could be other hatches, too.

I don't recall the shipwrecked boat on Danielle's map. Did it show what kind of boat it was or did she say? The reason I ask is that one of my theories on how Desmond got to the island is from a "Race Around the World" boat race that was done in the same year that he met Jack ... 1997 and their route covered Australia and St. Sebastian, Chile (St. Sebastian is the name of Jack's hospital).

Here ya go:http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/2246/map5xy.jpg (http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/2246/map5xy.jpg)
(Click it again to enlarge)

If you don't see it, JB, let me know and I will make a copy and circle the wreck.

If you don't see it JB, let me know I will edit the image and outline it.

The map is in French (somewhere on this computer I have the English translation one but couldn't find it at the moment.) The boat is bottom right on a rock or small outter island, just left of the triangle.

HIM is the mastermind behind the whole thing.

Here ya go:http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/2246/map5xy.jpg (http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/2246/map5xy.jpg)
(Click it again to enlarge)

If you don't see it JB, let me know I will edit the image and outline it.

The map is in French (somewhere on this computer I have the English translation one but couldn't find it at the moment.) The boat is bottom right on a rock or small outter island, just left of the triangle.
I see that boat but it doesn't look like a shipwreck, just aboat anchored.

Question ... what was she on when she did this map? It looks like she's out at sea. 2 boats?

Also I noticed that she's called the Lagoon "Blue Lagoon." Wonder if we'll find any references from the film of the same name? I haven't watched that movie is years so I can't recall anything but 2 young people marooned on the island.

If you don't see it, JB, let me know and I will make a copy and circle the wreck.

If you don't see it JB, let me know I will edit the image and outline it.



Did I hiccup?

I see that boat but it doesn't look like a shipwreck, just aboat anchored.

Question ... what was she on when she did this map? It looks like she's out at sea. 2 boats?

Also I noticed that she's called the Lagoon "Blue Lagoon." Wonder if we'll find any references from the film of the same name? I haven't watched that movie is years so I can't recall anything but 2 young people marooned on the island.

I should have found the English translation. Danielle labeled it "wreck"

HIM is the mastermind behind the whole thing.
Most likely, yes. But still who IS he? It's someone Desmond has never laid eyes on, that much we know.

Found it!

Here: http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3996/mapenglish1cx.jpg

I believe "him" refers to the one who should replace him. By the way, I checked Webster's Dictionary of first names and found Desmond:
(Celtic) "Of the South"
(Anglo-Saxon) "protector" ------> hmmmm. Maybe his "mission" is in his name?

I believe "him" refers to the one who should replace him. By the way, I checked Webster's Dictionary of first names and found Desmond:
(Celtic) "Of the South"
(Anglo-Saxon) "protector" ------> hmmmm. Maybe his "mission" is in his name?
I dunno ... I thought that too but wouldn't he just ask "are you my replacement?" Using the term "him" makes it sound like a much higher being that he was expecting. Like the "big boss" ... whoever that could be. :confused:

I found it interesting that Desmond looked relieved and believed Locke until Locke explained that "Kate was with him". Then Desmond wanted the answer to the snowman riddle.
Evidently, whoever Desmond was expecting, he did not expect him to bring another, especially a woman, along.

Perhaps my theory about Locke is shakey, but I still cling to the "black op" ju-ju surrounding the island. When Desmond asks, "Are you him?" it may be something as simple as the fact that he doesn't want to reveal too much information with his question.

"Are you the supreme being?"
"You're expecting GOD here!!!???"

"Are you HIM?"
"Huh?"

Perhaps my theory about Locke is shakey, but I still cling to the "black op" ju-ju surrounding the island. When Desmond asks, "Are you him?" it may be something as simple as the fact that he doesn't want to reveal too much information with his question.

"Are you the supreme being?"
"You're expecting GOD here!!!???"

"Are you HIM?"
"Huh?"
Well there are some that (despite what the Bible says) believe that Christ will come in the flesh on his second coming and the Jews, since they don't believe Jesus was the Mesiah, believe he's stll yet to come (in the flesh). So, with all of these Eastern and Asian religious references ... I don't think it would be odd if Desmond was expecting Christ. And if he is in a doomsday/Armadeggon bunker, he might just think that's what is supposed to happen. His emblem on the shirt he was wearing when he met Jack is the symbol for the Scottish Freemasons. They are rumored to be believed to want to start Armageddon. If he's part of that, then it may well be who he's waiting for.

Well there are some that (despite what the Bible says) believe that Christ will come in the flesh on his second coming and the Jews, since they don't believe Jesus was the Mesiah, believe he's stll yet to come (in the flesh). So, with all of these Eastern and Asian religious references ... I don't think it would be odd if Desmond was expecting Christ. And if he is in a doomsday/Armadeggon bunker, he might just think that's what is supposed to happen. His emblem on the shirt he was wearing when he met Jack is the symbol for the Scottish Freemasons. They are rumored to be believed to want to start Armageddon. If he's part of that, then it may well be who he's waiting for.

Perhaps, but would anyone ask Christ the snowman riddle? :rolleyes:

ok firstly desmond didnt recognise jack but jack did know who desmond was AND he wasnt happy to see him ! he pulled a face and tightened his grip on the gun, desmond is waiting for someone to relieve him of his duties. So why is jack not happy to see him ? what did desmond do ? he saved sarah then did he take it away because jack wouldnt believe ? and thats why jack is no longer married ?.....

Perhaps, but would anyone ask Christ the snowman riddle? :rolleyes:
Why not? Jesus knows all! LOL

You're right. My bad. :24:

OK. So we've concluded that Desmond was not expecting Jesus.

Next theory ...

ok firstly desmond didnt recognise jack but jack did know who desmond was AND he wasnt happy to see him ! he pulled a face and tightened his grip on the gun, desmond is waiting for someone to relieve him of his duties. So why is jack not happy to see him ? what did desmond do ? he saved sarah then did he take it away because jack wouldnt believe ? and thats why jack is no longer married ?.....
I think he didn't recognize Jack until they met face-to-face. I think at that point Desmond did know who he was. The look on Desmond's face, when he peers out from behind Locke, has a little "hehehehe" look in his eyes. And I'm torn on why Jack didn't seem thrilled to see him, too. It might just be because he had recently been thinking about him (his flashbacks are his thoughts) and that might have just been too weird for him.

But IF Desmond did have a physical hand in curing Sarah, I don't think Jack knows that so I don't think his lack of faith would have played into it. Besides, Desmond already understood that Jack didn't believe in miracles ... had no faith.

I couldn't find the image you spoke of. Could you give us a link, please?

But I did find this, under Freemason conspiracy theories: "Freemasonry is a form of Satanism and intends to start Armageddon." This ties in with Desmond asking Locke if the world was still there. Was he expecting doomsday or Armageddon to happen? If he was, then the question he asked Locke, "Are you him?" might imply Christ. Was Desmond actually thinking that Locke was Christ in his second coming? :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry

I have loved reading everyone's strikingly intelligent theories on the tie-ins with the freemasons and the occult. I wouldn't have expected a popular American television show to delve into that sort of thing, but there is a lot of evidence pointing towards the significance of these things, such as the symbol, and the ties with apocalyptic concepts {when he was surprised the world was still going on properly}. Still, I do believe that this might be a bit too deep for the average viewer, and if it does pop up, it would be more of a hardcore-viewer type thing to explore.

From the first introduction of Desmond, I felt that his Scottish nationality must be significant, because although sometimes English actors can be easily thrown into American television, it is rare to have a specific Scottish character unless it is significant to the plot in some way. At the very least, it seems that Scottish actors are asked to do English accents when their nationality is not particularly important, even if it is just because the average American would have trouble understanding a Scottish accent much more than most English accents, especially if you get into Weegie accents, and obscure, thick accents that are confined to a very small region.

Anyway, about this miracle business. Did anyone else feel that perhaps Desmond gave the miracle to Jack, or that he was at least connected to it in some way. It could, of course, just have been him instilling a true hope in Jack that helped the miracle occur. But there is a reason that Desmond was related to that specific occurance in Jack's life.

I really wonder what Desmond is doing on that island, and was generally irritated when I found that the preview for the next episode provided more answers to certain questions than this actual episode. I agree with the rest of you who said that there's a lot of intrigue in how Desmond went from being an athletic, optimistic, spiritual man in America to a messy-looking, lost, isolated man on a strange island. I look forward to explanations in the future.

I've just been watching all of the first season, and there were no snowman jokes involved. And yes, 'him' is so definitely Harry Potter. I think I would laugh for a day if that happened, and then I would be happy for the rest of my life just from pure amusement. That's as good a guess as any, as I don't think we have anything except vague speculation on who 'him' is.

I have loved reading everyone's strikingly intelligent theories on the tie-ins with the freemasons and the occult. I wouldn't have expected a popular American television show to delve into that sort of thing, but there is a lot of evidence pointing towards the significance of these things, such as the symbol, and the ties with apocalyptic concepts {when he was surprised the world was still going on properly}. Still, I do believe that this might be a bit too deep for the average viewer, and if it does pop up, it would be more of a hardcore-viewer type thing to explore.
But the fans of LOST arehardcore-viewers! The writers know this and know about how much we delve into every little detail. JJ has the same kind of fans with his show "Alias" so he has put together a top-notch creative team to write for those types of fans. There was so much speculation on just what was in the bunker and I don't recall reading one that thought it was a man! They are giving us deep and tangled plots, what with all of the characters having a tie-in, a connection to one another, that alone is a plot that way beyond what other current (and semi-current) shows have provided the average TV viewer.

From the first introduction of Desmond, I felt that his Scottish nationality must be significant, because although sometimes English actors can be easily thrown into American television, it is rare to have a specific Scottish character unless it is significant to the plot in some way. At the very least, it seems that Scottish actors are asked to do English accents when their nationality is not particularly important, even if it is just because the average American would have trouble understanding a Scottish accent much more than most English accents, especially if you get into Weegie accents, and obscure, thick accents that are confined to a very small region.
I totally agree that it is quite significant that Desmond is Scottish! And that is even more strong evidence that the Freemasons could fit into all of it. Desmond's emblem on his shirt, when he first met Jack, was for the Scottish Freemasons. There must be a connection there ... somehow.

Thanks for the post! You really seem to be among those of us "hardcore-viewers!" :biggrin:

Probably the paste that Locke put on Boone's head.


Could it have anything to do with the fact that the guy just SHOT at him?

NO, wait! I got it!

The guy in the stdium and the guy in the bunker are either twins or clones! and, Stadium Desmond has informed Hatch Desmond that Jack is going to be arriving on the island! So when Hatch Desmond asks Locke, "are you him?" it's because he's expecting Jack! Yaaaaaaay!
That's a possibility for sure! Good one! While I'm still not in the camp of their being clones, and twins wouldn't have the same name ... it might be the way they're going.

The guy in the hacth never says his name is Desmond... we just assume...
No. Locke asks him what his name is and he says "Desmond."

Hi all; new here. Jumping in with both feet...

ouch. :smile:

Not sure who the "him" would be, but I am ruling out his replacement. Desmond seemed surprised that the world was still out there. If he was expecting a replacement and believed the world was no longer out there, where was he planning to go when his replacement got there? I'm leaning towards the idea that he is waiting for someone with more answers than him... vague, I know, but it's all I've got. :)

Also, I think Locke was hoping to be "him". Locke is sure that somehow this island was his destiny; he gets to be and do what it is he has been dreaming of doing for quite a long time. He may have thought that being "him" was his destiny- as he believed that it was his destiny to open the hatch. It would be easy to think that as a reward for all of his efforts that he would be the "him".


~som

Hi all; new here. Jumping in with both feet...

ouch. :smile:

Not sure who the "him" would be, but I am ruling out his replacement. Desmond seemed surprised that the world was still out there. If he was expecting a replacement and believed the world was no longer out there, where was he planning to go when his replacement got there? I'm leaning towards the idea that he is waiting for someone with more answers than him... vague, I know, but it's all I've got. :)

Also, I think Locke was hoping to be "him". Locke is sure that somehow this island was his destiny; he gets to be and do what it is he has been dreaming of doing for quite a long time. He may have thought that being "him" was his destiny- as he believed that it was his destiny to open the hatch. It would be easy to think that as a reward for all of his efforts that he would be the "him".

~som
Great first post, somthnclever! I, too, don't think he's waiting for a replacement and for the very reasons you gave. I think the term "him" does imply someone VERY special ... someone like a leader, that was going to fill Desmond in on what had happened on the surface.

the whole scene made me think of Locke's convo with his mother...about her saying he was a messiah or whatever it was she said....like he was a modern day jesus of sorts

just throwing in my 2 cents worth

What the hell, I can hear you all asking, does this have to do with Lost? Well, let's connect some more dots. Desmond's shirt tells us he may be a Scottish Freemason (the oldest and most esoteric kind). Freemasons, many believe, are the keepers of the Templar secrets. And the Illuminati, with their esoteric connection to the number 23, are nothing but a secret, elite society within Freemasonry.

So let's stipulate that maybe this is one of the ancient Templar secrets kept by the Masons / Illuminati. What if the Templars, or even better, some of their Freemason descendants, actually found the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia? And at some point, say oh, a couple hundred years ago, they decided to move it? The Templars who founded Freemasonry were notorious sailors and even pirates. Look up the history of the Jolly Roger sometime. Perhaps they sent one of their ships to Ethiopia, in Eastern Africa, to move it somewhere more remote... their ship, The Black Rock.
dangerdork: ...I am floored! I especially love this speculation because it connects to my own interest in the Book of Enoch, aka the "Lost" text, aka the Ethiopic Apocalypse. Do you and/or others believe the fremasons/illuminati/templars are playing a good or positive roll in the plan, or is their goal more nefarious?

dangerdork: ...I am floored! I especially love this speculation because it connects to my own interest in the Book of Enoch, aka the "Lost" text, aka the Ethiopic Apocalypse. Do you and/or others believe the fremasons/illuminati/templars are playing a good or positive roll in the plan, or is their goal more nefarious?
When I did a Google search I found that one of the theories is that the Freemasons are considered satanic and that they want to start Armageddon. This info plus the question Desmond asked Locke about whether the "world" was still up there, leads me to think that there is a doomsday connection. If that is the case, then I'd have to say they have a decidely bad involvement in the whole scheme of things.

OK, I did a little research, and isn't this fun. I knew that the real John Locke was a 17th century English philosopher whose works had a profound influence on Jefferson, Franklin, and other founding fathers of the United States (many of whom, by the way, were Freemasons).

I was trying to find any evidence that Locke himself was a Freemason when I discovered something even more interesting. Locke's two best friends amongst the intelligentsia of England at the time were the Alchemist, Sir Robert Boyle - and Sir Isaac Newton. Those gentlemen consecutively held the office of Grand Master of a group called The Priory of Scion. Those of you out there who have read the da Vinci Code (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385504209/qid=1128052879/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0756673-3191930?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) should recognize the name. For those who haven't, the Priory of Scion (http://www.ordotempli.org/priory_of_sion.htm) is the uber-elite group within the Illuminati to whom most grand world-spanning conspiracy theories can be traced. And at least back then, they definitely existed.

WTF, you're asking, does this have to do with Lost?? Well, have another look at this quote from Damon Lindelof from a chatroom interview:

The only number was always sort of a key number was 23, and anybody who knows anything about Robert Anton Wilson or any of his writing can read into that what they will. That's an important number in terms of the scheme of the show.

Robert Anton Wilson wrote this indescribable book called The Illuminatus Trilogy (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0440539811/qid=1128051860/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0756673-3191930?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) which involves among many other things the wildest Illuminati theories ever printed, the religion of Discordianism (http://http://seti23.org/illuminati/discordia.html), and superstitions surrounding the number, all together now, 23 (http://www.mintchaos.com/mercuriosity/archives/002706.shtml).

This actually all makes sense in a disturbing sort of way.

For the record, the organization called the Priory of Scion has been proven to be a hoax, perpetrated by Plantard, and Les Dossiers Secrets, ostensibly listing famous historical figures as members of the order, were proven to be forgeries. Read just about any non-fiction book on the subject and on Plantard. He was a con-artist.

When I did a Google search I found that one of the theories is that the Freemasons are considered satanic and that they want to start Armageddon. This info plus the question Desmond asked Locke about whether the "world" was still up there, leads me to think that there is a doomsday connection. If that is the case, then I'd have to say they have a decidely bad involvement in the whole scheme of things.

You realise that these links are anti-Masonic propaganda, don't you? I come from a Masonic family, and the order is simply a philanthropic brotherhood. There isn't a Masonic conspiracy to end the world or control governments. It's basically a bunch of old men who hold luncheons.

You realise that these links are anti-Masonic propaganda, don't you? I come from a Masonic family, and the order is simply a philanthropic brotherhood. There isn't a Masonic conspiracy to end the world or control governments. It's basically a bunch of old men who hold luncheons.
I only found the quotes in a Google search. But there is no reason to not believe that the writers are taking the non-accepted angle. There are connections to the Scottish Freemasons in the emblem that Desmond is wearing when he first meets Jack. That isn't on his shirt for nothing. :smile:

I have read tons of books on related subjects, and was aware of Plantard. You are obviously interested and well-versed in these matters too, and I'm sure you'll agree that whenever you dig deep enough into the subject of Freemasonry or the Templars, you invariably run into a zillion different contradictory stories and a lot of con jobs and nutbar theories.

In fact, that's what makes relating that stuff to this show kind of fun. I for one would bet money that Mr. Abrams et al are well aware of this and intentionally slipping enough clues into the show to encourge these kinds of speculations.

Whether or not The Priory or the Illuminati are complete fabrications, exaggerations, or very real, they have become a part of our cultural mythology and a more and more common device in our entertainment and literature.
And if people in real life have fallen prey to false claims, why not one (or more) of the characters on LOST? :rolleyes:

After reading, scanning 16 pages, I have forgotten but did anyone mention Walt?
We all agree Desmond is waiting for someone special.....ah, special. Walt.

Perhaps, just perhaps that is why the 'others' wanted him first.

After reading, scanning 16 pages, I have forgotten but did anyone mention Walt?
We all agree Desmond is waiting for someone special.....ah, special. Walt.

Perhaps, just perhaps that is why the 'others' wanted him first.
That is a possibility but somehow I think with Desmond asking Locke if he was "him" he's not waiting for a child. Although, he may not know who he is waiting for. He might not even know if it's a man or a woman, though I think he might since he asked Locke and not Kate.

Very interesting stuff on the Masons, Knights Templar, and Illuminati, especially the 23. Even more food for thought. It's also popular right now, and Lost may very well be capitalizing on it.

I do think that the "Him" will be end up being someone we--and they--don't suspect. Maybe one of the lostaways inadvertantly answering the question. Not the original "Him" but a descendent or something (a "him" once removed)--someone given the code's answer as a backup by "Him", but not being cognizant of why that knowledge is important.

It's been a lot of years, and he only met Jack for a few minutes one day at the stadium. Who's to say he *would* remember jack?Did anyone else feel that perhaps Desmond gave the miracle to Jack, or that he was at least connected to it in some way.
I got the impression that Desmond was at the stadium specifically to meet Jack. That "what if you did fix her" conversation just seemed laden with double meaning--like Desmond knew something Jack didn't.

Maybe he's been broadcasting the numbers out over the airwaves.
He can't be. Danielle changed the message after her team got sick. The broadcasting message is the one Sayid and the group picked up last season that Shannon translated. Sayid said they couldn't transmit off the island because of it. Boone's transmission was clearly on the island.

Didn't Desmand say to Jack on the stairs of the stadium, "I am training for a race around the world" or something to that effect. Could he have meant that he was racing time to get to the bunker before the world ended. In Stephen King's The Stand (book about a man-made killer plague for those living in holes), the antagonist/devil man/whatever-you-want-to-call-him was often refered to as "him"
Or the race of a plague sweeping the world, killing everyone off. Someone mentioned to me that The Stand covers this too. Dunno if that's true. Desmond did seem surprised that the world was still out there and that Locke, et. al. had only been on the island 44 days.

a lot of people are saying Hurley told that joke in season one but no one seems to be able to point us to it for verification.
I did a search for "snowman" in the transcripts (http://www.lost-tv.com/transcripts/season1.html), but came up with nothing.

I think that there could be a roommate - did you see how shiny that stainless steel sink was where Desmond was slicing fruit for his power smoothy? Wow, impressively bright & shiny sink... so he either has a roommate... or a maid.
Desmond was also sleeping on the top bunk. He has--or had--at least one roommate.

What if the Templars, or even better, some of their Freemason descendants, actually found the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia?
How sad is it that I immediately flashed to Raiders of the Lost Ark and the scene where they take off the lid and the spirits kill all who are unworthy? Y'know--like a plague.

And how even sadder is it that I'm also thinking about all the Pandora's Box connections raised from Locke wanting the hatch to be opened so much? "What do you think's in the hatch?" "Hope."

It seems easier to me to find an explanation for someone keeping up a pretense than explaning how a paraplegic can all-of-a-sudden jump out of his chair. Our proof of his disability comes only from Locke's actions and Locke's words.
I can't see that super-meek guy we met--who's so gullible his own father can con a kidney out of him--being some secret spy in disguise. I think he really was disabled, but somehow when the plane crashed it reversed (fixed) his paralyzing injury. It does happen occasionally.

HIM is the mastermind behind the whole thing.Also, I think Locke was hoping to be "him". Locke is sure that somehow this island was his destiny; he gets to be and do what it is he has been dreaming of doing for quite a long time. He may have thought that being "him" was his destiny- as he believed that it was his destiny to open the hatch. It would be easy to think that as a reward for all of his efforts that he would be the "him".

That's what I think too.

Perhaps, just perhaps that is why the 'others' wanted him first.
Hmm. I think they wanted Claire first though. She's the one they originally went after and we really have no idea why. It's only speculated that it was because of Aaron, but Claire was having those prophetic dreams like Locke apparently is.

When I did a Google search I found that one of the theories is that the Freemasons are considered satanic and that they want to start Armageddon.

Uh oh.. my grandpa was a part of the Masons..:undecide:

I hear this theory in other places on the board but I don't see any proof that Desmond is super strong. Sure, he works out, but his body is not in rock-hard shape (notice the detail of his chest and abdomen while he's mixing the shake in the blender). He has a soft body but with a fair amount of muscle. Just looks like he works out daily to keep in shape since he goes nowhere. But, still, Ethan might have been who Desmond was waiting for but where was Ethan hanging out all that time and where did he get what he tried to inject into Claire's belly? Is there another hatch?

You have to be pretty strong to do chin-ups like he did when you've got so much body mass.

Well there are some that (despite what the Bible says) believe that Christ will come in the flesh on his second coming and the Jews, since they don't believe Jesus was the Mesiah, believe he's stll yet to come (in the flesh). So, with all of these Eastern and Asian religious references ... I don't think it would be odd if Desmond was expecting Christ. And if he is in a doomsday/Armadeggon bunker, he might just think that's what is supposed to happen. His emblem on the shirt he was wearing when he met Jack is the symbol for the Scottish Freemasons. They are rumored to be believed to want to start Armageddon. If he's part of that, then it may well be who he's waiting for.


lol @ "despite what the bible says"
:Jumpy:

But the fans of LOST arehardcore-viewers! The writers know this and know about how much we delve into every little detail. JJ has the same kind of fans with his show "Alias" so he has put together a top-notch creative team to write for those types of fans. There was so much speculation on just what was in the bunker and I don't recall reading one that thought it was a man! They are giving us deep and tangled plots, what with all of the characters having a tie-in, a connection to one another, that alone is a plot that way beyond what other current (and semi-current) shows have provided the average TV viewer.


I just meant that there are casual average-type viewers AND 'hardcore' viewers. I watch the show with my dad every week, and he can't be bothered with loads of details. He just watches it to be entertained and likes it quite a lot. He makes a big deal over making sure no one bothers us between nine and ten and I can sometimes talk about some theories with him, but that's the extent of it. I, on the other hand, spend quite a bit of extra time reading and writing theories and thinking about the show. My point was that while people like you & me might be ecstatic about complex occult-type tie ins or the like, it wouldn't really phase average viewers.

I don't think LOST is going to resort to time travel or alternate universes because the producers have said that it can all be explained with simple normal explanations.


Unless the producers have come out and changed their position on this, I think there is a bit of the "telephone game" going on. The original quote from last season was something to the effect that everything could be explained by science or pseudoscience.

That's a far cry from simple and normal. Pseudoscience, as I would understand the term, would include any wild theory proposed on "Coast to Coast" radio with Art Bell/George Noory, http://www.coasttocoastam.com/.

If Art Bell's theories come in, then the lid is off the cookie jar.

Yeah, I think that was part of the point of the flashback, to make us wonder, "How did such a vibrant, positive person end up stuck in a quarantine bunker on some godforsaken island in the middle of nowhere with a small arsenal?" I'm dying to find out.

Amazing how after bits of two episodes, Desmond has more personality and nuance than characters in other long-running hit series.

I so agree with this. I already love the man ... the accent alone got me and what a wonderful smile he has!!! :kiss:

I'm thinking that like many of the storylines in LOST, Desmond's is more of an allegory or allusion to religious events/stories/beliefs. He's likely not waiting for an actual religious figure like Jesus, but instead a savior that would be messiah like to him, because it would get him out of that place. The fact that there is a codephrase, (What did one snowman say to the other snowman?) that Desmond must "check in" with the computer everytime the counter/timer runs down and it beeps, and Desmond's previous statement that he's going on a trip/race around the world make me think he's an unwitting part of an experiment. Some sort of test to see how people can survive or how they would survive in an apocolyptic type situation.

I have read tons of books on related subjects, and was aware of Plantard. You are obviously interested and well-versed in these matters too, and I'm sure you'll agree that whenever you dig deep enough into the subject of Freemasonry or the Templars, you invariably run into a zillion different contradictory stories and a lot of con jobs and nutbar theories.

In fact, that's what makes relating that stuff to this show kind of fun. I for one would bet money that Mr. Abrams et al are well aware of this and intentionally slipping enough clues into the show to encourge these kinds of speculations.

Whether or not The Priory or the Illuminati are complete fabrications, exaggerations, or very real, they have become a part of our cultural mythology and a more and more common device in our entertainment and literature.

I have more faith in the writers of Lost. ;) I'm really, really hoping they're not jumping on the Dan Brown bandwagon. These things have become somewhat clichéd subjects in conspiracy theory fiction. We need something more original!

Do you think there is a connection between Desmond and the numbers??????

There is something...but I think (just my lousy opinion) that Desmond doesnt even understand the significance of the numbers. I think he is obsessed with them because he has to be...they are keeping him alive.

Him is definitely one of the "others"

Do You think there could be a connection between Danielle and Desmond

I just meant that there are casual average-type viewers AND 'hardcore' viewers. I watch the show with my dad every week, and he can't be bothered with loads of details. He just watches it to be entertained and likes it quite a lot. He makes a big deal over making sure no one bothers us between nine and ten and I can sometimes talk about some theories with him, but that's the extent of it. I, on the other hand, spend quite a bit of extra time reading and writing theories and thinking about the show. My point was that while people like you & me might be ecstatic about complex occult-type tie ins or the like, it wouldn't really phase average viewers.
But I believe that your father is in the minority of viewers that watch LOST. This board is a perfect example of that ... and there are tons of other boards, pod casts, diaries, etc. on the internet all done by fans like us that reserach and look for every little detail. I have even met people outside of the internet that watch the show and they do the same thing on their own or on the internet. And with all of the hints and clues that the writers give us in every eppy, I think it's clear to see that that is what they are doing on purpose. LOST is as near to interactive-TV as it comes! :biggrin:

I so agree with this. I already love the man ... the accent alone got me and what a wonderful smile he has!!! :kiss:
OT: Yes, when I first saw Desmon and didn't even know we'd see him again, that smile at Jack just grabbed me! Henry is an amazing actor! :biggrin:

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=19504

I'm thinking that like many of the storylines in LOST, Desmond's is more of an allegory or allusion to religious events/stories/beliefs. He's likely not waiting for an actual religious figure like Jesus, but instead a savior that would be messiah like to him, because it would get him out of that place. The fact that there is a codephrase, (What did one snowman say to the other snowman?) that Desmond must "check in" with the computer everytime the counter/timer runs down and it beeps, and Desmond's previous statement that he's going on a trip/race around the world make me think he's an unwitting part of an experiment. Some sort of test to see how people can survive or how they would survive in an apocolyptic type situation.
Yes, I must agree with what you said. My Jesus theory was shot down when I was reminded of the snowman question. LOL Silly me!

I'm thinking that like many of the storylines in LOST, Desmond's is more of an allegory or allusion to religious events/stories/beliefs. He's likely not waiting for an actual religious figure like Jesus, but instead a savior that would be messiah like to him, because it would get him out of that place. The fact that there is a codephrase, (What did one snowman say to the other snowman?) that Desmond must "check in" with the computer everytime the counter/timer runs down and it beeps, and Desmond's previous statement that he's going on a trip/race around the world make me think he's an unwitting part of an experiment. Some sort of test to see how people can survive or how they would survive in an apocolyptic type situation.

I agree I think Desmond is waiting for someone to relieve him or to say it's all clear. Then he can leave the hatch.

But what would Desmond do when he left the hatch??? He's so paranoid and disconnected....or is he??

But I believe that your father is in the minority of viewers that watch LOST. This board is a perfect example of that ... and there are tons of other boards, pod casts, diaries, etc. on the internet all done by fans like us that reserach and look for every little detail. I have even met people outside of the internet that watch the show and they do the same thing on their own or on the internet. And with all of the hints and clues that the writers give us in every eppy, I think it's clear to see that that is what they are doing on purpose. LOST is as near to interactive-TV as it comes! :biggrin:


Wow jbdean. I've never thought of it that way. It clearly is quite the interactive show. At first it seemed to me like any other show. I really really liked it and started posting on the ABC message board first. I ended up on the Fuselage some how. The addiction started. It's the kind of show that if you're really into it you'll want to scour every little detail for clues. Now there's things on the DVD and internet where you can hunt for information besides the episodes. I bet they know they're driving us crazy. Just sitting there laughing at us because we can't figure it out. Gotta love it.

Wow jbdean. I've never thought of it that way. It clearly is quite the interactive show. At first it seemed to me like any other show. I really really liked it and started posting on the ABC message board first. I ended up on the Fuselage some how. The addiction started. It's the kind of show that if you're really into it you'll want to scour every little detail for clues. Now there's things on the DVD and internet where you can hunt for information besides the episodes. I bet they know they're driving us crazy. Just sitting there laughing at us because we can't figure it out. Gotta love it.
That's just why LOST is such a hit! Nothing really been done like this before in such a way that we can follow the clues and yet they're not all that obvious (most of the time). I read somewhere that the writers are as challenged with giving the fans info/hints/clues as they are with writing the show! They love how we've glammed onto the show! :biggrin:

But I believe that your father is in the minority of viewers that watch LOST.
No, he's not. The internet comprises at most 1% of the viewers for Lost--and that's being extremely generous. Last season averaged 18 million viewers (without repeats). 180,000 American viewers don't go online to Lost forums or research Lost related stuff. I doubt that 180,000 worldwide do either.

Yes, this is a watercooler show, and yes, people do look for clues and discuss them, but not nearly to the extent the internet fandom does. Almost all of the subtleties are being "lost" on the general public--stuff like the shark's logo, Hurley's numbers in the airport, "Adam Rutherford", Hurley on Jin's whoever's TV, the Tustin connection, etc.

Almost all of the subtleties are being "lost" on the general public--stuff like the shark's logo, Hurley's numbers in the airport, "Adam Rutherford", Hurley on Jin's whoever's TV, the Tustin connection, etc.


I have to agree with this. I know many who watch but do not pick it apart like I do. My hubby, who catches some of the stuff, didnt catch the Rutherford reference. He did catch the shark logo...barely. My mom watches every week but totally missed...well a lot of things. She is still fixating on seeing the "smoke monster" and not interested in much of the rest. She didnt catch the logo cuz she was waiting for Sawyer to get eaten (gasp!).

I wont go as far as talking about everyone I know and how they watch but I will say that I believe the general public watching is just checking out the cliffhangers.

*stepping off the soapbox*

OT: Yes, when I first saw Desmon and didn't even know we'd see him again, that smile at Jack just grabbed me! Henry is an amazing actor! :biggrin:

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=19504

Well he had me with that smile as well ... and the accent ... I have been running around trying to do that accent ROFL but no way ... can a Texan do a Scottish accent :) At least not this Texas haha

I found an interesting, maybe, tie-in on of all places ... ebay!

http://cgi.ebay.com/THE-WORLD-HELD-HOSTAGE-desmond-macforan_W0QQitemZ8340070666QQcategoryZ1127QQrdZ1Q QcmdZViewItem

Any thoughts? And the last name is in Scottish form.

I found an interesting, maybe, tie-in on of all places ... ebay!

http://cgi.ebay.com/THE-WORLD-HELD-HOSTAGE-desmond-macforan_W0QQitemZ8340070666QQcategoryZ1127QQrdZ1Q QcmdZViewItem

Any thoughts? And the last name is in Scottish form.

Very interesting! Now your going to make me google this guy! Not only is the last name in the Scottish form but it says the book is located in the United Kingdom.

We really could be reaching to far into research, but this is always the fun part.

Very interesting! Now your going to make me google this guy! Not only is the last name in the Scottish form but it says the book is located in the United Kingdom.

We really could be reaching to far into research, but this is always the fun part.
Totally fun!!! I did a search on ebay for "Desmond" hoping I'd find a pix of Henry from the show and found that instead. Funny how things work. :biggrin:

If you're gonna' google him, I'll not do it. Save me the exploring as I have tons of other stuff to google. LOL

From amazon.com:

A consultant to governments and multinational corporations on political and economic affairs, McForan establishes his expertise with a singularly impressive account of the complicated maneuvering that led to the formation, unification and growth of the Palestine Liberation Organization. He sees the PLO as the "principal coordinating, logistic and supply centre for terrorist groups on a global basis" and believes that it is so generously financed by the Arab states because they fear attempts to topple their regimes. One backer nation without that concern, however, is Libya, which has lavishly funded the PLO ever since Colonel Khadafy came to power in 1969, asserts McForan. Another interested party, he argues, is the U.S.S.R., always eager to promote instability in democratic nations. He concludes with a list of recommendations for combating the terrorist menace, including more stringent airport security and economic sanctions against countries that abet terrorism.

Doubtful this means anything now that I google him.

From amazon.com:

A consultant to governments and multinational corporations on political and economic affairs, McForan establishes his expertise with a singularly impressive account of the complicated maneuvering that led to the formation, unification and growth of the Palestine Liberation Organization. He sees the PLO as the "principal coordinating, logistic and supply centre for terrorist groups on a global basis" and believes that it is so generously financed by the Arab states because they fear attempts to topple their regimes. One backer nation without that concern, however, is Libya, which has lavishly funded the PLO ever since Colonel Khadafy came to power in 1969, asserts McForan. Another interested party, he argues, is the U.S.S.R., always eager to promote instability in democratic nations. He concludes with a list of recommendations for combating the terrorist menace, including more stringent airport security and economic sanctions against countries that abet terrorism.

Doubtful this means anything now that I google him.

You're probably right. But it was exciting for a split second! :lol2:

You're probably right. But it was exciting for a split second! :lol2: LOL yes it was. But for some reason it got me thinking about the hatch and rather or not there is a chance it was once a rather large submersible. Not a submarine because they do not have windows, but submersibles do. Of course im pretty sure the windows on those are convex for a reason, and the window on the hatch was flat.

But it was fun to search for it :biggrin:

LOL yes it was. But for some reason it got me thinking about the hatch and rather or not there is a chance it was once a rather large submersible. Not a submarine because they do not have windows, but submersibles do. Of course im pretty sure the windows on those are convex for a reason, and the window on the hatch was flat.

But it was fun to search for it :biggrin:
Wonder if we'll ever know Desmond's last name?

Hmm. I think they wanted Claire first though. She's the one they originally went after and we really have no idea why. It's only speculated that it was because of Aaron, but Claire was having those prophetic dreams like Locke apparently is.

Yes, Ethan went after Claire but who is to say Ethan is an "other"? The 'others' stay hidden while Ethan was out and about and pretending to be one of the crash victims.
I am still swayed that Ethan was Desmond's roommate.

Yes, Ethan went after Claire but who is to say Ethan is an "other"? The 'others' stay hidden while Ethan was out and about and pretending to be one of the crash victims.
I am still swayed that Ethan was Desmond's roommate. There does seem to be two bunk beds when looking into the hatch.

Ethan went after Claire but who is to say Ethan is an "other"?
There's lots of reasons, but mainly because Ethan Rom is an anagram of Other Man, and JJ has confirmed this.

There's lots of reasons, but mainly because Ethan Rom is an anagram of Other Man, and JJ has confirmed this.

Not doubting you that he said that, but where did he say that? I hadn't heard anyone official confirm this fact.

Not doubting you that he said that, but where did he say that? I hadn't heard anyone official confirm this fact.

Shoot. It was in the printed version of TVGuide a long time ago. I don't think I'll ever be able to find it online. Crud.

Hey! Here's a link (http://www.tvguide.com/Redirect?cmsguid=%7BB18CA11B-D82B-4A92-BA59-ECECC5B89ECE%7D)! I was slightly wrong, it didn't name JJ per se. Also, that's not how it was covered in the print edition. I really did think they named someone with the confirmation.

There's lots of reasons, but mainly because Ethan Rom is an anagram of Other Man, and JJ has confirmed this.

Aware of the anagram, don't know about JJ confirming it but I still think Ethan is different from "the others". Just my humble opinion and most likely wrong but I'll hold on to it for the time being :rolleyes:

There's lots of reasons, but mainly because Ethan Rom is an anagram of Other Man, and JJ has confirmed this.
But couldn't he be the "Other man" in the hatch?

When he asked Locke, "are you him" and Locke said "yes, yes I am"

it reminded me of this song, (which goes nicely with Terry's last name)

Ev’rybody’s building the big ships and the boats,
Some are building monuments,
Others, jotting down notes,
Ev’rybody’s in despair,
Ev’ry girl and boy
But when quinn the eskimo gets here,
Ev’rybody’s gonna jump for joy.
Come all without, come all within,
You’ll not see nothing like the mighty quinn.

I like to do just like the rest, I like my sugar sweet,
But guarding fumes and making haste,
It ain’t my cup of meat.
Ev’rybody’s ’neath the trees,
Feeding pigeons on a limb
But when quinn the eskimo gets here,
All the pigeons gonna run to him.
Come all without, come all within,
You’ll not see nothing like the mighty quinn.

A cat’s meow and a cow’s moo, I can recite ’em all,
Just tell me where it hurts yuh, honey,
And I’ll tell you who to call.
Nobody can get no sleep,
There’s someone on ev’ryone’s toes
But when quinn the eskimo gets here,
Ev’rybody’s gonna wanna doze.
Come all without, come all within,
You’ll not see nothing like the mighty quinn.

When he asked Locke, "are you him" and Locke said "yes, yes I am"

it reminded me of this song, (which goes nicely with Terry's last name)

Ev’rybody’s building the big ships and the boats,
Some are building monuments,
Others, jotting down notes,
Ev’rybody’s in despair,
Ev’ry girl and boy
But when quinn the eskimo gets here,
Ev’rybody’s gonna jump for joy.
Come all without, come all within,
You’ll not see nothing like the mighty quinn.

I like to do just like the rest, I like my sugar sweet,
But guarding fumes and making haste,
It ain’t my cup of meat.
Ev’rybody’s ’neath the trees,
Feeding pigeons on a limb
But when quinn the eskimo gets here,
All the pigeons gonna run to him.
Come all without, come all within,
You’ll not see nothing like the mighty quinn.

A cat’s meow and a cow’s moo, I can recite ’em all,
Just tell me where it hurts yuh, honey,
And I’ll tell you who to call.
Nobody can get no sleep,
There’s someone on ev’ryone’s toes
But when quinn the eskimo gets here,
Ev’rybody’s gonna wanna doze.
Come all without, come all within,
You’ll not see nothing like the mighty quinn.
I love that song, Michelle Friday! I remember when it was a new song. ;)

But, the line is "everybody's gonna want a dose" not doze. The song is a reference to LSD. Gotta love those days ... maybe. ;)

But couldn't he be the "Other man" in the hatch?
Personally, I think Occam's Razor rules this out--unless Desmond is also an Other, which I seriously doubt. I don't think he's been in the hatch long enough.

All clues point to Ethan being one of the "Others" Danielle was talking about--the ones who whisper, took her baby, etc.

Personally, I think Occam's Razor rules this out--unless Desmond is also an Other, which I seriously doubt. I don't think he's been in the hatch long enough.

All clues point to Ethan being one of the "Others" Danielle was talking about--the ones who whisper, took her baby, etc.
"Occam's Razor" ??? Can you explain this? Thx.

Occam's Razor (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&q=define:Occam%27s+Razor). When given a choice, the simplest answer is usually the correct one.

Occam's Razor (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&q=define:Occam%27s+Razor). When given a choice, the simplest answer is usually the correct one.
Are you on the same island that I am? ;)

Are you on the same island that I am?
Yes. Yes, I am. Things that seem to get too complicated are usually the first signs that there's probably one overriding explanation tying it all together that's just being missed. Lost is chock full of examples of this concept.

Yes. Yes, I am. Things that seem to get too complicated are usually the first signs that there's probably one overriding explanation tying it all together that's just being missed. Lost is chock full of examples of this concept.
With things like polar bears and whispers in the dark ... murals on a wall in a hatch below the ground that's lived in by a man who has computers from decades ago and a modern washer and dryer ... a man who was in a wheel chair and can now walk ... a boy that "knows" things that others don't ... all of these things lead you to believe that there are examples of simple explanations through out the show? I just don't see it.

One of the things the writers love about the fans is that they look for and usually find the deep hidden hints. Those hints aren't put there for nothing. This island is no ordinary island and that is much more evident in the show than normal answers. :smile:

Wow, I finally made it through all 21 pages on this thread. There has been a lot of interesting theories and information. I'm a bit tired but I just want to throw out a few things to think about.

There have been a number of things that have bothered me about Danielle for quite sometime now. I don't believe that her explanation of how she came to be on the "Island". She knows about the numbers, had maps of the "Island", transmit a message using the Black Rock as a point of reference, called the "Security system" a protection for the "Island", said there were no monsters, knew about the bears, knew about the sickness and seems to be pretty well versed in arms and survival. I think she has a tie to Desmond. Maybe she was part of an extraction team that got marooned. I don't know but I have a deep feeling that she has a much bigger role in what is going on than just being an innocent that came to the "Island" by mistake.

Ahhhh.......lostbylot you're a breath of fresh air. LOL. Finally someone who sees a little deeper into Danielle's character. I too don't believe she's so innocuous. She knows too much. Granted she's been there for about 16 years. If she's never seen the Others how did she get to know so much? I'll bet my blue bonnet that she has ties to Desmond.

On this theory of a Daniele/Desmond connection ... I just keep coming back to the question Desmond asked Locke about the "world still up there?" I just think that if he knew of Danielle he'd not have asked that ... perhaps he'd have asked if Locke knew or had seen her. I just think that poor, sweet Desmond has been down there all alone for a very long time ... at least since he first met Jack. I think it's not unbelievable that Danielle would know as much as she does having been on the island 16 years. That's an awfully long time to be alone. Lots of time to go over the island with a fine tooth comb. But not odd that she never found the hatch. It was totally over-grown and had Boone not stumbled over it, it may well have gone undetected for another 16 years.

But speaking of the map that Danielle had ... anyone notice the "crater"? We haven't yet been shown that part of the island. Wonder what it holds? Maybe the main command post to Desmond's underground bunker? Hmmm ...

There was a thread during last season, where they had translated what Danielle's message said. It was a bit different than Shannon's translation. Danielle says that it killed them all and that she will try to make it to the Black Rock She also states that Brandon has the key, that Brandon took the key. Anyway, I just started thinking that maybe it wasn't a key in a physical sense but maybe the key to the numbers or the key to the riddle.

There was a thread during last season, where they had translated what Danielle's message said. It was a bit different than Shannon's translation. Danielle says that it killed them all and that she will try to make it to the Black Rock She also states that Brandon has the key, that Brandon took the key. Anyway, I just started thinking that maybe it wasn't a key in a physical sense but maybe the key to the numbers or the key to the riddle.
I don't know about that thread. Until it's in the show, it's a spoiler if it's presented as fact. You should spoiler font your post.

Since I have to go on what the show has given us for Danielles transmission, I can't go after that lead. Sorry. :smile:

Something else I find interesting is the fact that Desmond has power for his biosphere. Does that power come from the cable in the Ocean? If so, Then what is under the ocean off the shore? Remember when Sceve was killed and Locke said he came from the ocean. I wonder if there is a hatch that leads to an underwater bunker of sorts?

I don't know about that thread. Until it's in the show, it's a spoiler if it's presented as fact. You should spoiler font your post.

Since I have to go on what the show has given us for Danielles transmission, I can't go after that lead. Sorry. :smile:

I actually ask the Mods how to treat the information and was told that if it had aired it was not a spoiler. It's just like translating Korean to English. When Jin or Sun spoke Korean in the presence of non-Korean speaking characters, there were no sub titles but what they said was still a part of the show that had been aired and was bible. Danielle's french transmission is the same.

Something else I find interesting is the fact that Desmond has power for his biosphere. Does that power come from the cable in the Ocean? If so, Then what is under the ocean off the shore? Remember when Sceve was killed and Locke said he came from the ocean. I wonder if there is a hatch that leads to an underwater bunker of sorts?
That's been speculated and I certainly think it's a strong possibility! We never did find where the other end went as Sayid was interrupted by Danielle's snare. Perhaps it goes to Desmond's bunker. But we haven't seen all of the bunker yet. There might well be an energy source within the bunker ... perhaps in the room that had the light that shone in through his kitchen window.

Man, I can't believe it's still 3 days until Wed! LOL

This island is no ordinary island and that is much more evident in the show than normal answers.
That's not the point of Occam's Razor. I said the simplest answer is usually the correct one, not the simple one. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck, then it probably isn't an elephant with cats hanging off it.

What's the point of leaving clues (or trying to find, follow, and draw conclusions from them) if the answers ultimately come out of nowhere? Why bother making the connections for Adam Rutherford and Shannon, Hurley and Locke's box company in Tustin, Hurley's psychiatric stay with Leonard, Danielle/Charlie/Sayid's conversation and Walt's Others, ALL the clues pointing to what's in the hatch, the magnet and Locke's compass, etc. etc, if in the end the answers don't tie in to the evidence left before? That's Occam's Razor, and LOST has shown in the past that they're pretty good at following it.

And yeah, I do think there's an overall explanation for everything that's rooted in normalcy: It's a ship I tell ya! A plague ship! Answers everything for me! :biggrin:

We never did find where the other end went as Sayid was interrupted by Danielle's snare.
In "Numbers" we found out it went into the ground. It's possible Danielle was just splicing off it to get a little electricity for herself.

I don't know about that thread. Until it's in the show, it's a spoiler if it's presented as fact. You should spoiler font your post.

Since I have to go on what the show has given us for Danielles transmission, I can't go after that lead. Sorry. :smile:

That was on the show. It was played over the radio but it was in French. Shanon didn't translate the whole thing..just bits and pieces. Those among us who had some French caught it and reported what they heard.

You realise that these links are anti-Masonic propaganda, don't you? I come from a Masonic family, and the order is simply a philanthropic brotherhood. There isn't a Masonic conspiracy to end the world or control governments. It's basically a bunch of old men who hold luncheons.
This is actually why I originally asked the question of their motives on the show. I agree that an evil conspiracy is most plausible since I've yet to see a work of fiction that presents the masons or illuminati in a positive light. Still, would be just like Lost, a show that breaks so many other molds, to shatter this cliche, as well. We also know that one of the protagonists, Jack, is portrayed as a man of science and reason. The masons and illuminati are often associated with those values generally, and the elightenment specifically.

schoff: I'm with jbdean re Occam's razor. Any good natural scientist will tell you it's an unreliable heuristic that generates wrong results as often as it does right ones. My own feeling is that Occam's razor has even less application to a fictional work like Lost, where the writers' preferences matter much more than logic and simplicity. Think rube goldberg device...or even better, Mousetrap.

[QUOTE=

schoff: I'm with jbdean re Occam's razor. Any good natural scientist will tell you it's an unreliable heuristic that generates wrong results as often as it does right ones. My own feeling is that Occam's razor has even less application to a fictional work like Lost, where the writers' preferences matter much more than logic and simplicity. Think rube goldberg device...or even better, Mousetrap.[/QUOTE]


I think Occam's razor still applies to this show. I have Read many posts from them and interviews. The whole idea is to give "US" the opportunity to make judgments for ourselves. IMO, We will be able to decide what we believe. Whether it is totally explainable by science or of a paranormal, sans Alien, nature. Good writing is always open to interpretation. I for one believe that TV can be a source of good writing.

Excellent thread.

Not to take it too far off topic, but some speculation I've read on other threads regarding the mural in the hatch goes along with the faith/Ark of the Covenant/Mason/savior stuff mentioned here... The mural is full of fishes, which is a glyph (called "Ichthys") used by early Christians (and modern ones with their car decals, lol) as a secret symbol and a sort of "secret handshake." You can read more about it in this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys

Hope it helps you flesh out this theory. For what it's worth, here's a screenshot of the mural with prominent fish...

http://img382.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mural1od.jpg

:biggrin:

I dont think that anyone would go down there unless one day they thought someone would be comming... and he was expecting some one who knew the answer to the snowman question (i guess locke never had two four year old girls living in his house my kids told that joke for years and thought that they were soooo funny every time that they told it, when Desmond asked the question i Yelled the answer at my tv.Boy I need a life.)
How long do you all think he was down there? My girls TAPED over the eppisode and i missed the last 10 mins or so ( yes they are sooo busted)
Did they make a referance to how long he was down there?

Sorry if this as already been discused.

No, the length of time is still not known.

We caught a glimps of the expiration date on the Apollo candy bar. If I recall correctly (forgive me if I"m wrong. It's not even 6:00am yet) the exp date was Oct 04. I'm not sure what the standard is for candy bars. You'd think they'd be good for awhile. I guess you can speculate how long he's been there. Maybe. Ha ha.

We caught a glimps of the expiration date on the Apollo candy bar. If I recall correctly (forgive me if I"m wrong. It's not even 6:00am yet) the exp date was Oct 04. I'm not sure what the standard is for candy bars. You'd think they'd be good for awhile. I guess you can speculate how long he's been there. Maybe. Ha ha.

It was Oct or Nov (Nov I think) "23" 2004 :biggrin:

Replacement...Totally his replacement.
Maybe it could be Hurley...I even like that idea.
But then I'd say is the whole Desmond/Dharma/Hatch thing seperate from the Walt/Others ordeal?
I believe that due to the fact desmonds hatch has a shower, and surely if the people who kidnapped walt were the others then why were they so dirty? Leads me to believe they kidnappers dont have anything to do with the hatch so who are they really?

I believe that due to the fact desmonds hatch has a shower, and surely if the people who kidnapped walt were the others then why were they so dirty? Leads me to believe they kidnappers dont have anything to do with the hatch so who are they really?
I don't think the Others are connected to Desmond's bunker either. But do keep in mind that both Goodwin and Ethan were very neat and clean. But, of course, that still doesn't mean that they used Desmond's shower. There is still so much of that island still not seen by us and the lostaways (like the huge volcanic crater on the west side of the island ... which would be a great place to hold a base camp).

ethan wasn't even that clean he always seemed covered in dirt, with scars/etc. I always thought of him as a rogue member of the lost aways. Just so strange we never knew much about him and still dont.

ethan wasn't even that clean he always seemed covered in dirt, with scars/etc. I always thought of him as a rogue member of the lost aways. Just so strange we never knew much about him and still dont.Really? I thought he was a lot cleaner than the lostaways. I think we'll learn more about him as the show progresses. I doubt he'll never be tied into anything.

Yeah its a good point they cant really leave such an amazing part of the show unanswered. Afterall it was the first ever amazing thing that really happened on lost, or for me at least.

I haven't read this whole thread but I rewached "Adrift" again yesterday. With all the speculation around about "Are you him?" Something clicked again. I know we were shown this in MOS/MOF and again in the beginning of this episode, what happened to Kate when she wes being lovered into the Hatch? She wasn't at the bottom when she was snatched and pulled, so what exactly happened?

The other thing, when Locke gets down into the Hatch and Desmond asks Locke "Are you him?" There was a look on Kate's face, we see her face, is Kate supposed to be "Him"?

I haven't read this whole thread but I rewached "Adrift" again yesterday. With all the speculation around about "Are you him?" Something clicked again. I know we were shown this in MOS/MOF and again in the beginning of this episode, what happened to Kate when she wes being lovered into the Hatch? She wasn't at the bottom when she was snatched and pulled, so what exactly happened?

The other thing, when Locke gets down into the Hatch and Desmond asks Locke "Are you him?" There was a look on Kate's face, we see her face, is Kate supposed to be "Him"?I took that look on Kate's face of something like, "Locke? You really have a connection to this hatch?" LOL

But did anyone connect the "him" that Desmond asks about and the "him" that Zeke tells Ethan about? My ears perked up immediately! I wonder if they are the same "him."

But did anyone connect the "him" that Desmond asks about and the "him" that Zeke tells Ethan about? My ears perked up immediately! I wonder if they are the same "him."

Hmm, I never really noticed that. I don't think they are the same him, but it would like the Producers/Writers/Whatever to do something like that. I don't think they are the same because I don't think that Desmond is at all related to Zeke and Ethan (the Others.)

Hmm, I never really noticed that. I don't think they are the same him, but it would like the Producers/Writers/Whatever to do something like that. I don't think they are the same because I don't think that Desmond is at all related to Zeke and Ethan (the Others.)He may not be knowlingly. He might just have been waiting to be contacted by "him" and, unknown to Desmond, that "him" is Zeke connected because I am sure that Zeke is DHARMA connected. Follow my line of thought? :smile:

He may not be knowlingly. He might just have been waiting to be contacted by "him" and, unknown to Desmond, that "him" is Zeke connected because I am sure that Zeke is DHARMA connected. Follow my line of thought? :smile:

Yep, I follow. And it's a good one, too!:biggrin:

Yep, I follow. And it's a good one, too!:biggrin:I just thought it odd (in an enlightening way) that the writers (again, Yay Raggs!) would use "him" just like they did for Desmond. But while I'm sure Zeke knows who "him" is ... I'm kind of doubting that Desmond knows who his "him" is. (boy ... that sounds way too confusing! :24: )

Hi,

We really should find out how long Jack has been married...that should give us some idea about how long Desmond would have been down there...He was going to travel around the world and Jack wasn't married yet...but can't have been that long (though his dad sure seemed very sober back then ;-)

Hi,

We really should find out how long Jack has been married...that should give us some idea about how long Desmond would have been down there...He was going to travel around the world and Jack wasn't married yet...but can't have been that long (though his dad sure seemed very sober back then ;-) Desmond says he was on the island for 3 years.

Thx Sam G,

I'm a rookie, I admit, and we've only seen the first 2 eps of season 2 so far...3 years...

Waw, you're in first class (could you order me a drink?, you can hand it out to me before take off, I will be on the tarmac ;-) for some time I guess LOL

Thx Sam G,

I'm a rookie, I admit, and we've only seen the first 2 eps of season 2 so far...3 years...

Waw, you're in first class (could you order me a drink?, you can hand it out to me before take off, I will be on the tarmac ;-) for some time I guess LOLWhat do you want to drink? I'm sure I can slip it to you. Welcome to the 'Fuse.

He may not be knowlingly. He might just have been waiting to be contacted by "him" and, unknown to Desmond, that "him" is Zeke connected because I am sure that Zeke is DHARMA connected. Follow my line of thought? :smile:


When Zeke mentioned "Him" in "Maternity Leave" I didn't recall that Desmond mentioned "Him" to Locke in "Adrift" until today...when I rewatched Adrift...

The "Him"s have to be connected...I am intrigued how Desmond would know about "Him" Desmond also seemed to think the world had ended too...he was shocked that the world still existed when he caught Locke, initially.

Did Desmond use the computer to communicate to the Others' Hatch? How did Desmond communicate with "Him"...or did Desmond meet him in the world somehow, or when he began his race around the world....

The Season 2 DVDs better freakin' come out soon...I think there's a lot of important revelations/plants in the earlier Season2 eps that we can all go back and "see" in a new light....

im guessing "Him" is jack. desmond said to jack "We will meet in another life" in the stadium so im thinking thats jacks reason he was brought to the island

I'm really beginning to think that "him" is the same "him" that Desmond asked of Locke, "Are you him?" "Him" is a great man, according to Henry and I think that he must be DHARMA connected and would thererfore be known to Kelvin who would have told Desmond about him. The way Henry spoike of "him" he's like a messiah to them. That might have been why Desmond was saying it the way he did ... "Are you him?" He really asked him with reverence ... he was in awe of Locke, thinking he was him.

I've read a spoiler somewhere else, I forget where that says it's Christian, Jack's dad but I just can't buy that. That's just too "out there" for me.:eek2:

I'm really beginning to think that "him" is the same "him" that Desmond asked of Locke, "Are you him?" [...] The way Henry spoke of "him" he's like a messiah to them. That might have been why Desmond was saying it the way he did ... "Are you him?" He really asked him with reverence.

You summed it up, really. Besides, it's LOST; there's no coincidence in both Desmond and Henry speaking about HIM ... it's definitely the same person.

I also imagined Desmond's question immediately as "Are you Him?" with a capital 'H'. If I were in Desmond's place and were supposed to be asking about a specific person with a specific task, I'd say:
"Are you the replacement?" or
"Are you this company's owner?" or
"Are you the guy that built this thing?" or whatever.
But in this scene I also felt, besides the apparent reverence, the overwhelming secrecy and a bit of fear on part of Desmond. I felt it was more:
"Are you Him, the powerful man with a secret agenda that I have a reason to fear?" than: "Are you him, the guy that was supposed to come here a long time ago, but didn't and now I'm pissed?"

After that, there was the question about the snowman, further conveying the secrecy feeling.

< p >

You summed it up, really. Besides, it's LOST; there's no coincidence in both Desmond and Henry speaking about HIM ... it's definitely the same person.

I also imagined Desmond's question immediately as "Are you Him?" with a capital 'H'. If I were in Desmond's place and were supposed to be asking about a specific person with a specific task, I'd say:
"Are you the replacement?" or
"Are you this company's owner?" or
"Are you the guy that built this thing?" or whatever.
But in this scene I also felt, besides the apparent reverence, the overwhelming secrecy and a bit of fear on part of Desmond. I felt it was more:
"Are you Him, the powerful man with a secret agenda that I have a reason to fear?" than: "Are you him, the guy that was supposed to come here a long time ago, but didn't and now I'm pissed?"

After that, there was the question about the snowman, further conveying the secrecy feeling.

< p > Oh, thank you! I have come across so many that think all Desmond was doing was asking about his replacement. I just know he was asking about someone much higher up and very powerful. Perhaps Kelvin told him that "Him" (and I do think a capital H is in order) might come by one day (maybe he came once for Kelvin) and so Kelvin gave Desmond the riddle so that he would know who "Him" was should Kelvin not be there to identify him.

I also recall when Zeke mention "him" to Ethan. Although he said "he" ... it was said in a way that I just know that Zeke had to have meant the same Him as Desmond and Henry were talking about.

I also imagined Desmond's question immediately as "Are you Him?" with a capital 'H'. If I were in Desmond's place and were supposed to be asking about a specific person with a specific task, I'd say:
"Are you the replacement?" or
"Are you this company's owner?" or
"Are you the guy that built this thing?" or whatever.
But in this scene I also felt, besides the apparent reverence, the overwhelming secrecy and a bit of fear on part of Desmond. I felt it was more:
"Are you Him, the powerful man with a secret agenda that I have a reason to fear?" than: "Are you him, the guy that was supposed to come here a long time ago, but didn't and now I'm pissed?"

After that, there was the question about the snowman, further conveying the secrecy feeling.


Pretty sure Desmond is waiting for Walt, because Michael put the snowman question in a card for him (incidentally, i'm 85% sure the answer is "Freeze")

Pretty sure Desmond is waiting for Walt, because Michael put the snowman question in a card for him (incidentally, i'm 85% sure the answer is "Freeze")
The most popular answer to the Snowman joke is "Do you smell carrots."

This is the joke Michael put in Walt's card.

Nurse: How about a joke?
Michael: I don't know. What kind of joke?
Nurse: How about what's black, white, and red all over?
Michael: Yeah, a newspaper, right?
Nurse: A penguin with a sunburn.
Michael: That's really dumb.

What did one snowman say to the other snowman?

a) Freeze!
b) Can you smell carrots?
c) Have an ice day!

Pretty sure Desmond is waiting for Walt, because Michael put the snowman question in a card for him (incidentally, i'm 85% sure the answer is "Freeze") Why would Desmond be waiting for Walt? Besides, I'm also thinking that since both Zeke and Henry refered to a "him" that Zeke implied was a leader and Henry said was ... I'm thinking that Desmond was truly waiting for someone huge! I doubt Walt is that "Him" ... and I can't see him as the "Him" Henry spoke of for two reasons ... 1] Henry said he's not forgiving, I think Walt is and 2] that he spoke of Walt as "Walt" when he said they'd never give Walt back. I think it would have been written to be, "They'll never give him back."
The most popular answer to the Snowman joke is "Do you smell carrots."

This is the joke Michael put in Walt's card.

Nurse: How about a joke?
Michael: I don't know. What kind of joke?
Nurse: How about what's black, white, and red all over?
Michael: Yeah, a newspaper, right?
Nurse: A penguin with a sunburn.
Michael: That's really dumb.Thanks. :kiss: I don't know why some think that the snowman joke was told by Michael and/or Hurley. Neither one told this snowman joke. This is the only snowman riddle in the whole show.

No idea why he'd be waiting for Walt...maybe something to do with his "abilities" and maybe there is much MUCH more to Walt than meets the eye.

No idea why he'd be waiting for Walt...maybe something to do with his "abilities" and maybe there is much MUCH more to Walt than meets the eye.I don't know. Seeing how Walt was kidnapped and is being held against his will but Zeke et al (which I'm sure was the plan all along once they knew he was on the island), I kind of doubt that he'd have made it down the hatch to meet Desmond. And I'd also wager that Desmond was expecting an adult since he asked Locke if he was "Him." I think it's more likely whomever Henry was talking about and Zeke was talking about with Ethan.

But as for the riddle's reply ... I have a feeling that it doesn't have to make sense. It's not like a regular question but more like a spy I.D. step. So the answer doesn't have to go along with the question. Not saying it won't (if we ever find out what it is), just saying it doesn't have to.

But as for the riddle's reply ... I have a feeling that it doesn't have to make sense. It's not like a regular question but more like a spy I.D. step. So the answer doesn't have to go along with the question. Not saying it won't (if we ever find out what it is), just saying it doesn't have to.

I agree, Jean. I'm pretty sure it's code or ID or something. Also, I don't think the "him" is Walt. I'm thinking more like Hanso or something. I wonder what's up up with good ol' Alvar...;)

I agree, Jean. I'm pretty sure it's code or ID or something. Also, I don't think the "him" is Walt. I'm thinking more like Hanso or something. I wonder what's up up with good ol' Alvar...;)Well, I read on some blog that the head of the whole thing is Christian Shephard!But I don't buy that.

But as for the riddle's reply ... I have a feeling that it doesn't have to make sense.


Of course -- it's a secret code used to ID a person. If the answer is a logical one, wouldn't it be a really dumb code? ;)

Imagine that scene:
Desmond: "What did one snowman say to the other snowman?"
Locke: "Do you smell carrots?"
Desmond (kneeling & crying): "I spent three years in this hole waiting for some answers, thank God you're finally here."

< p >

Of course -- it's a secret code used to ID a person. If the answer is a logical one, wouldn't it be a really dumb code? ;)

Imagine that scene:
Desmond: "What did one snowman say to the other snowman?"
Locke: "Do you smell carrots?"
Desmond (kneeling & crying): "I spent three years in this hole waiting for some answers, thank God you're finally here."

< p >:24: Exactly! (I think I see a Saturday Night Live or MAD TV parody there ... );)

lol thats brilliant. i origionally thought that it was snow men cant talk which was suggested by a friend but now i think it has been replaced :biggrin:

Watching adrift last night, got me sad about the fact that Locke was so Happy at the prospect of finding Desmond and the Hatch. he really wanted to be "him". Then to see how the season turned out, completely the opposite. I liked Locke better when he was happy and thought he had a purpose!! Hhis faith has to be restored!!! Kind of off topic but sorry,
ms