So here we have it . . . SAWYER actually saving someone's life! And it appears he WAS trying to save Walt, not himself - he jumped into the water, knowing there was a shark there, bleeding, to get on his own piece of raft. Sound like a man trying to save his own butt?

So, is this a sign they're playing with the antihero and hero characters? Will Jack become more like Sawyer, and Sawyer more like Jack? What will the hero and antihero look like by the end of the series?

Interesting question.

Actually I don't think of either of them as a hero. I know everyone sees Jack as the ultimate hero and it is funny how they're starting to make fun of it now, but: When did he actually do something really heroic? I'm not trying to bash Jack or something, I like Jack... most of the time...

Do I think Sawyer is a hero? No, not really either. He did save Michael's life, he tried to save Walt and got shot for that but I think his motives are not purely heroic. He just doesn't care about his own life very much and he kinda admitted it to Michael in last season's finale:

Michael: Since the day you told me you wanted on this raft, I couldn't figure it out. Why does a guy who only cares about himself want to risk his life to save everyone else? The way I see it, there's only 2 choices - you're either a hero or you want to die.

Sawyer: Well, I ain't no hero, Mike.

I think that's what Sawyer's trying to achieve since the beginning of the show: to end his life and in doing so, end the pain and guilt he feels for killing the wrong guy. Just with one tiny difference: After these 44 days on the island he starts caring about the ppl around him.

I got this off of dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hero)

he·ro n. pl. he·roes
1. In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.

2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.

3. A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity.

4. The principal male character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation.




Actually I don't think of either of them as a hero. I know everyone sees Jack as the ultimate hero and it is funny how they're starting to make fun of it now, but: When did he actually do something really heroic? I'm not trying to bash Jack or something, I like Jack... most of the time...

Well, swimming out to save Johanna only to find Boone, and then go back out for her, well I thought that was pretty heroic. ;) So I think he's qualify in that instance.


Do I think Sawyer is a hero? No, not really either. He did save Michael's life, he tried to save Walt and got shot for that but I think his motives are not purely heroic. He just doesn't care about his own life very much and he kinda admitted it to Michael in last season's finale

I have to agree that that is how Sawyer started. When he was stabbed in the arm by Sayid, and was saying those mean things to Jack, I think he was trying to get Jack to let him die, that he wanted all the pain over with. He always acted like he didn't care, but did you notice that one time Boone was ostracized for hiding the water, and Sawyer asked how it felt to take his place as the most hated person on the island, he added, "Sucks, don't it?" He may act like he doesn't care, but he does.



I think that's what Sawyer's trying to achieve since the beginning of the show: to end his life and in doing so, end the pain and guilt he feels for killing the wrong guy. Just with one tiny difference: After these 44 days on the island he starts caring about the ppl around him.
I agree, once you start caring for people, you realize it'll hurt you if something happens to them, so you start to look out for them as well. And we saw that with Sawyer trying to save Walt, rescuing Michael, and calling for Jin. He risked his own life to try and save Walt, and to get the pontoon for himself and Michael. I think he'd also qualify as a hero too.


The thing is with LOST, and the thing I love about it, it isn't always black and white. While you may be a hero in one instance, you may be the villian in another. And that could go for both Sawyer AND Jack.

The thing is with LOST, and the thing I love about it, it isn't always black and white. While you may be a hero in one instance, you may be the villian in another. And that could go for both Sawyer AND Jack.

I agree wholeheartedly here. I've pointed out many instances where Jack's behavior/actions are less than shiny. (Search moral dilemma).

I do think TPTB are playing with archetypes of hero / anti-hero. I also think there's a parallelism running throughout the show, we see dark and light in most of these characters including both Jack and Sawyer.

So here we have it . . . SAWYER actually saving someone's life! And it appears he WAS trying to save Walt, not himself - he jumped into the water, knowing there was a shark there, bleeding, to get on his own piece of raft. Sound like a man trying to save his own butt?

Lol, well, I don't think jumping into the water while bleeding was heroic, esp with a shark there, (given the well known fact that sharks are attracted to blood) but I was glad to see Sawyer doing CPR on Mikey ... while it is something we all would automatically do, it shows Sawyer's growth from someone who traded on a woman's serious medical condition for his own desire, to a man who unhesitatingly gave CPR.

I think first and foremost what Lost is trying to do is illustrate the human struggle. After all what makes a hero is someone who overcomes adversity to help others. Certainly neither Jack or Sawyer will be shiny all the time because they are human first & to be human is to be flawed.... Some of the most revered heroes in mythology committed unsavory acts such as Gilgamesh who killed in sport & even Hercules who murdered his wife and children.

I think Jack/Sawyer both share the reluctance to consider themselves in any heroic capacity, but it's just part of who they are no matter how much they resist. I don't see it as a competition of the hero/anti & that they will wind up opposite of what they are now per se, as I do that they are each embarking on their own hero's journey, & have to overcome the self-doubt & demons which hinder their growth.

2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.


Getting his own piece of raft to be stubborn? No, not heroic I'd say. But swimming for a safer piece of raft for himself and Michael, when HE'S the one who's bleeding, then I, and dictionary.com, would agree that YES, that was heroic of him. :grin:

I agree with this statement 100% :)

I think first and foremost what Lost is trying to do is illustrate the human struggle. After all what makes a hero is someone who overcomes adversity to help others. Certainly neither Jack or Sawyer will be shiny all the time because they are human first & to be human is to be flawed.... I think Jack/Sawyer both share the reluctance to consider themselves in any heroic capacity, but it's just part of who they are no matter how much they resist. I don't see it as a competition of the hero/anti & that they will wind up opposite of what they are now per se, as I do that they are each are embarking on their own hero's journey, & have to overcome the self-doubt & demons which hinder their growth.
Very well said. I think as far as the characters go, it will be about their struggle - to deal with unresolved pre-crash issues and then new ones the island presents. The island, and all thats there is part of what they have to deal with and overcome. I don't think any of the crash survivors were part of a conspiracy to get them there - they may have had interactions pre-crash to tie them together - and somehow were destined to be on that flight and survive - but I really don't think anyone was part of it or had prior knowledge.
And I've said it before - once we see more episodes, a lot more will become clear and we'll have lots more to talk about and debate :drowsy:

Well, swimming out to save Johanna only to find Boone, and then go back out for her, well I thought that was pretty heroic. ;) So I think he's qualify in that instance.

Okay, I forgot about this incident... probably distracted by wet/shirtless Boone :blush:

And since you've mentioned him... Boone.... hero? No hero?

(and no, I wasn't going to mention him from the start... *gg*)

Sawyer is a hero, but he seems like he's still punishing himself more than he is doing it for others.

And since you've mentioned him... Boone.... hero? No hero?



I'd say Boone was a hero in heart, although not success: he tried his best to help and save people (Rose, Joanna, protecting the water, guard duty), but somehow it never quite worked out the right way. So I'd say yes, he was heroic in intentions, just not in results (poor Boone).

I think we're getting glimpses of the hero and anit-hero in everybody on the island. Because we've been shown it exists in all of them. Through present day or flashbacks. With Sawyer though I think this is one the first times we've seen him acting heroic.

Again, that's what makes all of them so watchable, the flawed human element as well as the noble component exists in every one of the characters. They've all done something that took great courage where they put aside their own concerns for another. Personally I thought Sayid's risk to help Nadia was one of the most heroic instances on the show period. He's also a natural born leader.

I don't know if they're going to switch it up between the two because again imo it already has been shown to exist in not only them but virtually all of the lostaways. You never know what side is going to come out in any given instance.
That's absolutely what I love about this show . . . Sawyer and Jin specifically are characters that seemed at first to be "bad", but when the picture of their lives was revealed, it wasn't that simple. What is it that they say? A man is more than the sum of one bad act. I'd think that applies to all of them. I've been watching the show with my 9 year old niece, and she's noted too, that almost all of them are good people who've done bad things, like most of us I'm sure.

On that note, have you seen "Crash" with Sandra Bullock, Don Cheadle, and Matt Dillon? That movie accomplishes the same thing . . . demonstrating that things are not always black and white (no pun intended). That's the best movie I've seen in a long time.


Okay, I forgot about this incident... probably distracted by wet/shirtless Boone :blush:

And since you've mentioned him... Boone.... hero? No hero?

(and no, I wasn't going to mention him from the start... *gg*)
I'd absolutely say he was a hero . . . it's the intention. I can't imagine telling a firefighter's wife that her husband was a hero in effort if not in results, just because he wasn't able to get out of the building with a victim. Think of all the men and women who died trying to save others, whether it be firefighters, policemen, or regular people like Boone - it's the sacrifice, the effort, the "noble act" that makes them a hero, not the result.

Boone definatley made a "valiant attempt" or you could say a heroic attempt to save Johanna. To bad he failed and thus kinda lead to her death.

Boone is a tragic figure ala greek myth:

- The guy who found a bunch of pens.
- The lifeguard who couldn't perform CPR.
- The lifeguard who couldn't swim.
- The guy who hid the water.
- The man who threatened the trained soldier and the guy with perfect aim and a suitcase full of knives.
- The guy who was in love with his sister.
- The guy who couldn't stay awake one guard duty.
- The guy who was surprised by a dog.
- The guy who had a dream about his sister dying.
- The guy who was a sidekick.
- The kid who got his nanny killed.
- The guy who fell down in a plane while attempting to SOS
- The guy who dies before talking to his sister
thanks to Traekos, gogi at the fuselage

I think this issue is at the heart of the series. To me, the character of Jack only got interesting as he started to discover his dark side. As he became less and less purely heroic and began to act more Sawyer-like. The same holds true for Sawyer. As he began to act less and less in a selfish fashion and more and more herioc, he became more interesting to me. Each man is coming to grips with his own duality, and each struggles with change. I love it!

As far as heroism and Jack goes. We have Jack to thank for how the mid plane survivors have done. Without Jack's speeches the Mid plane Lostaways lives would be very different then they are now. There would be no raft, there would be no sharing of food or of anything. It would truly be "Lord of the flies" time. I think we'll realize this now as we find the people from the tail section of the plane, the people who havent had anyone to organize them and help form a new society out of the wilds.

It should be really interesting to see the two groups merge if the tail section survivors make it to the mid section survivors. Or maybe the Others take out one group or the other...

As far as heroism and Jack goes. We have Jack to thank for how the mid plane survivors have done. Without Jack's speeches the Mid plane Lostaways lives would be very different then they are now. There would be no raft, there would be no sharing of food or of anything. It would truly be "Lord of the flies" time. I think we'll realize this now as we find the people from the tail section of the plane, the people who havent had anyone to organize them and help form a new society out of the wilds.

It should be really interesting to see the two groups merge if the tail section survivors make it to the mid section survivors. Or maybe the Others take out one group or the other...


Nicely put, yet so easily overlooked ...

Yeah, well if I were in charge I'd have had a regular armed guard set up around the perimeter on day two and had latrines dug on day three.

Jack's grown on me, but I'm still a pretty non-plussed by his leadership skills. Apparently not a one of 'em has a lick of survivalist common sense in 'em.