Let's start with a few questions: Have we seen the plane crash? Really seen it crash? Or have we seen it crash/break apart from the characters point of view?

Maybe the plane never crashed, but the people on board think or "remember" it crashing.

1. The tail broke off in mid-flight, no one realistically could have survived that, much less the fall into the ocean, and then make it to land on the OTHER side of island. (Unless it never actually broke off and the people were made to think it did)

2. The back stories are always from the characters point of view. Are we sure that they are recalling what "actually happened" or is it what they "remember happening"? Not necessarily the same thing. What is happening on the island is the only thing that we can actually believe, I think.

3. The "Orientation Video" gives evidence that island is part of a psych experiment. Notice in the video they showed a polar bear? Could that be part of some subliminal implant? I am tracking off-course here, but it is somewhat related.

4. Notice how different the front (oraganized) and back (seem tribal) the two halves of plane are? I admit, this is stretching it a bit. But it is like some of the other light v. dark theories (experiments?).

Well, this is the first rough cut and is open to comment. What do you think? Plausible? I am sure that is more evidence to support this theory than my tired mind can remember just now.

No comments?

Ok, one more idea to throw out there.....

Maybe...

... Locke was never paralyzed, but just thinks that he was
... Sarah was not real, in an accident, or saved miraculously, Jack just thinks she was
... Rose (is that her name?) knows that her husband is still alive, though he was in the back of the plane
... Desmond keeps pressing the button for no reason other than faith

Its a test of faith on many levels and may be part of the experiment.

I would call it an experiment in human physiological and social behavior

Hi All,

With regards to LosingIt's post: I also started suspecting this after Exodus part III, when the raft crew encounter the people on the boat.

old man on boat: "What's going on? What you folks doing this far out here."
Michael: "We were in a plane crash....."
old boat man: "Plane crash huh? Well, how bout that."
Michael: "We were on an island....flight 815............."
old man on boat: "Hey, it's a good thing we found you."
Michael: continues to explain....
old man on boat: "Well ain't that something."

To me, the old man talks as if he does not believe Michael and even sounds as if he is mocking him or being sarcastic. I thought this could be one of a few things:

1) The group of people on the boat had the 40+ survivors under surveillance and already knew they were in a plane crash.

2) The group of people on the boat had the 40+ survivors under surveillance and were responsible for bringing down the plane intentionally.

3) The group of people on the boat had the 40+ survivors under surveillance and knew that the survivors were NOT in a plane crash... the survivors were only led to believe they were in a plane crash by something on the island.

Also, writing the dialogue above reminded me of something. Both the old man and Desmond kind of seem surprised that people were trying to get off the island using a raft, almost as if they knew it would not work.

Hi All,

With regards to LosingIt's post: I also started suspecting this after Exodus part III, when the raft crew encounter the people on the boat.

old man on boat: "What's going on? What you folks doing this far out here."
Michael: "We were in a plane crash....."
old boat man: "Plane crash huh? Well, how bout that."
Michael: "We were on an island....flight 815............."
old man on boat: "Hey, it's a good thing we found you."
Michael: continues to explain....
old man on boat: "Well ain't that something."

To me, the old man talks as if he does not believe Michael and even sounds as if he is mocking him or being sarcastic. I thought this could be one of a few things:

1) The group of people on the boat had the 40+ survivors under surveillance and already knew they were in a plane crash.

2) The group of people on the boat had the 40+ survivors under surveillance and were responsible for bringing down the plane intentionally.

3) The group of people on the boat had the 40+ survivors under surveillance and knew that the survivors were NOT in a plane crash... the survivors were only led to believe they were in a plane crash by something on the island.

Also, writing the dialogue above reminded me of something. Both the old man and Desmond kind of seem surprised that people were trying to get off the island using a raft, almost as if they knew it would not work.

Also, when Locke told Desmond about the plane crash, he answered in the same manner, somethingn like a plane crash, you dont say? Although i dont think Desmond is one of the others, I wonder why he seemed to not be like OMG a plane crash?

The plane crash is suspicious on so many levels and I agree there is much more to the story.

A couple of things that have consistently bothered me about the crash;

-- Kate tells Sayid that she never passed out, that she 'saw the whole thing', so she would have insight into the crash but never says anything about it. (This conversation was early in Season 1, maybe in the pilot episode). No one else seems to have any memory of the actual crash, just of the plane breaking apart.

--Why was Charlie on the beach?? When the plane started to break apart, he had run up to First Class, right outside the bathroom behind the cockpit, where his heroin stash was. All those in First Class died...how did he end up on the beach with those from the middle of the plane?

And yes, I think the reaction of the Others and of Desmond to news of a plane crash was rather strange.

I thought about what Kate had said, too - and yes, it was in the pilot episode. Why wouldn't she say something? Maybe she's the spy for the mid section of the plane (Like Ana Lucia was for the tail section?)

Let's start with a few questions: Have we seen the plane crash? Really seen it crash? Or have we seen it crash/break apart from the characters point of view?

Maybe the plane never crashed, but the people on board think or "remember" it crashing.

1. The tail broke off in mid-flight, no one realistically could have survived that, much less the fall into the ocean, and then make it to land on the OTHER side of island. (Unless it never actually broke off and the people were made to think it did)

2. The back stories are always from the characters point of view. Are we sure that they are recalling what "actually happened" or is it what they "remember happening"? Not necessarily the same thing. What is happening on the island is the only thing that we can actually believe, I think.

3. The "Orientation Video" gives evidence that island is part of a psych experiment. Notice in the video they showed a polar bear? Could that be part of some subliminal implant? I am tracking off-course here, but it is somewhat related.

4. Notice how different the front (oraganized) and back (seem tribal) the two halves of plane are? I admit, this is stretching it a bit. But it is like some of the other light v. dark theories (experiments?).

Well, this is the first rough cut and is open to comment. What do you think? Plausible? I am sure that is more evidence to support this theory than my tired mind can remember just now.

I had thought about this as well.
Maybe this is all implanted in everyones minds some how.
The plane crash was designed to explain how everyone actually ended up on the island. so basically no one is looking for them because the crash never happened.
This would also explain how Desmond ended up on the island. His reason was staged as a boat crash. All the flashbacks everyone have are not actually past memories but rather memories implanted in everyones mind. This would give everyone a reason for actually being on the "airplane" from Australlia in the first place. Such as Desmond was on a race around the world, Jack was getting his father, and so on. Maybe the "others" were looking for Walt because somehow he got through without being fully implanted with these memories.
Sorry if this rant doesn't make much sense but i'm new to this board and fairly new to message boards in general.

Interesting comments, abstrakt32. There are also more crashes to consider - Danielle's ship supposedly crashed, as did the drug plane that Locke and Boone found. The Black Rock is another possible crash.

[QUOTE=belshep;526619]The plane crash is suspicious on so many levels and I agree there is much more to the story.

A couple of things that have consistently bothered me about the crash;

-- Kate tells Sayid that she never passed out, that she 'saw the whole thing', so she would have insight into the crash but never says anything about it. (This conversation was early in Season 1, maybe in the pilot episode). No one else seems to have any memory of the actual crash, just of the plane breaking apart.

Is it because:
A. Kate never used the oxygen mask which may have been the way a knock-out drug was administered
B. Kate is lying
C. ?

Is it because:
A. Kate never used the oxygen mask which may have been the way a knock-out drug was administered
B. Kate is lying
C. ?

C. Kate is part of the operation, as an observer of the social/psychological/medical/etc. experiment, capturing actual field data, disguised as a "trusted" passenger placed within the realm of theose being observed.

-Mang
(I put an extra splash of conspiracy in my Mang Tang tonight...)

Don't forget..Jack...the most educated in ways of the body..says it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to survive that crash. They were at least 20,000 feet. Air is close to 60 below zero at that height and when planes depressurize at that altitude, the passengers tend to freeze solid instantly...now..this plane...BROKE APART at that height and they are all just dazed on the beach.

That engine could not be running as the wing was severed and then so would the fuel line be...they bascially did a free fall from five miles high and had cuts and scratches but I remember seeing nobody with broken bones.

I think the plausability of this being staged is getting to make more sense...BUT WHY!!!

All the posts on this have been excellent, though I was hoping for a more lively discussion on this one as it would explain a lot, as well as open up a lot more questions (which is what LOST excels at).

I am more convinced now than ever that the plane crash never happened. Aside from the fact that most survived a high altitude breakup of the plane, the others (no pun intended) reaction to the news seems too flat (for lack of a better term). Where's the "holy sh#$, a plane crash?" As its been posted, the "a plane crash, you don't say?", what does that tell you?

Let's keep this thread going and I hope it picks up momentum, as I really believe that this is a key PART to the story, but only a part.

As a follow-up, maybe there was no plane per se.

Throwing something out for discussion: Could they all have been "Abducted" in Austrailia and made to think that they were on a plane, which explains why no one is looking for a lost plane.

Although the magnetic field could throw off a compass, most planes today have GPS systems which the field could not confuse. Besides, if the magnet drew them off course, how would anyone know that they were off course?

TPTB said that the crash was no accident. This could be a play on words, granted..

I agree...it requires a suspension of belief that is not plausible. Hell...a car crash at 20 mph can cripple you or put a world of hurt on you...and a free fall from five miles high gives you scrapes and cuts...gives you back your dead legs? Remember...Boone was damn near crushed to death after falling 20 feet with that plane out of the tree...broken bones...collasped lung..massive cuts...yet the pilot in the first show...who free fell from MILES..was rendered unconscious and woke up and stood up??? WHAT THE?!?!?

Wouldn't that be one heck of a scenario if it were faked...?

Maybe its not staged...just some massive virtural reality experiment. Maybe that was what Walt was when he appeared to Shannon...a glitch in the system. I mean the flashbacks show them getting on the plane, so for the crash to be staged their memories would have had to been staged also, no?

Then again, wasn't there something on one of the sites about the gate at the airport being wrong? Flight 815 was suppossed to take off from one gate, but they actually loaded at another. Maybe the plane they got in was Hanso owned, they were all drugged, in a semi conscious state they were force fed info about the plan crash, and then the experiment on the island began. Which meant the actual flight 815 made it to LA A OK which is why no one is looking for them. Maybe the guy on the boat who took Walt made those comments because he was kinda proud...like his drug worked and this experiment is going off without a hitch.

Who knows...

I personally would prefer an actual plane crash on a funky spooky islanld. But you all are right, there's no way they would have survived that crash.

[Is it because:
A. Kate never used the oxygen mask which may have been the way a knock-out drug was administered
B. Kate is lying
C. ?

I checked - Kate does use the mask. Of course, that doesn't mean she actually inhaled..

As for lying, I have thought about that too, but why would she lie about something that would cast suspicion on herself? I can't seem to come up with a good motive for this particular lie. Any ideas?

How was the hatch built with no one knowing about the island?
What kind of "deserted" island has multiple crash victims end up there without no one being discovered.
The plane crash being a hoax is very plausible.
Maybe everyone was a volunteer for a medical experiment.
About the flashbacks.
Maybe they are part of the experiment.
Locke could not walk in his flashbacks now he can.
Michael didnt have his son in his flashbacks now he has (or had) Walt.
Jack has problems with faith and miracles now he's in a situation were it's all around him. This could be to see how they react in these situations. I wouldnt be suprised if Locke loses his ability to walk in a future episode.
The group from this crash could also be a part of the 6 experiments from the Hanso Foundation. Just some thoughts.

..
Then again, wasn't there something on one of the sites about the gate at the airport being wrong? Flight 815 was suppossed to take off from one gate, but they actually loaded at another..

Just going with the thought..
Maybe the loaded into a Virtual reality/Flight simulator, or should that be crash simulator? The crash was simulated up until the dropping of the Omasks. At which time they were unconscience (gassed) then placed on the island ina crash setting.. from that point on.. all is real and observed.

There's a thread about the "CGI artifcact", or in my opinion the flying ET/monster, in the pilot which swoops down right before the engine explodes, seemingly causing the explosion.

I agree the crash was staged, but believe these flying "war weapons" or ETs or nanobots or whatever tore the plane apart and brought it down. Memories were wiped away, and they were all placed on the "crash site".

So it wasn't an "accident" per se, and the didn't "crash" in the sense that they free fell from 20K feet. But there WAS a plane on that beach, and a FUSELAGE.

1. The tail broke off in mid-flight, no one realistically could have survived that, much less the fall into the ocean, and then make it to land on the OTHER side of island. (Unless it never actually broke off and the people were made to think it did)

One clue as to what happened is in the orientation film. Did you notice the guy doing the magnetism experiments hovering a ball of metal in mid-air?

2. The back stories are always from the characters point of view. Are we sure that they are recalling what "actually happened" or is it what they "remember happening"? Not necessarily the same thing. What is happening on the island is the only thing that we can actually believe, I think.

The limited character POV is common in this kind of show. Everything we know is filtered through the perceptions of the characters and, if they're perceiving it wrong, so are we.

3. The "Orientation Video" gives evidence that island is part of a psych experiment. Notice in the video they showed a polar bear? Could that be part of some subliminal implant? I am tracking off-course here, but it is somewhat related.

Certainly some psych action is going on. That's one reason why it reminds me of other quirky, cult classic, TV shows. It also makes me worried that they'll either jump-the-shark or get canceled sooner rather than later. :ohwell:

4. Notice how different the front (oraganized) and back (seem tribal) the two halves of plane are? I admit, this is stretching it a bit. But it is like some of the other light v. dark theories (experiments?).

That's going to be something we'll learn more about soon, although I'd say from what we've seen so far the tail section people are more organized than the lay-abouts we see in the fuselage. It seems to me that they leave most of the heavy lifting up to a few people while the tail people are having to fight for their lives.

C. Kate is part of the operation, as an observer of the social/psychological/medical/etc. experiment, capturing actual field data, disguised as a "trusted" passenger placed within the realm of theose being observed.

-Mang
(I put an extra splash of conspiracy in my Mang Tang tonight...)

Just look at Kate's lines in disc 1 of the DVD set from the first couple installments of Lost. Her questions to Jack were approximately, "Why are you not afraid?" and "How do you know so much?" She asked Charlie whether they'd met before; possibly she'd been involved in recruiting him, and wanted to make sure he didn't recognize her. She asked Sawyer how he knew a certain passenger had been a US marshal. You give the wrong answer to Kate for any of those questions, you die "accidentally".

If you look very closely, you can also see her cuing the supposed "pilot" to "wake up" and go into his act. Then she assisted him in the "monster" illusion.

Of course this means the "marshal" wasn't a marshal, and was part of the plot with her. But he was double crossed. I've been guessing he's the equivalent of the Comedian character from Watchmen.

Robert

Well I don't know what to think. I was thinking it wasn't real because it is impossible to survive that, but then what about all the people that did die on the crash. Did they just kill them all for reality factor? And the 2 people they found in the water further away with the briefcase. Just doesn't add up. But neither does surviving a plane crash!

Just look at Kate's lines in disc 1 of the DVD set from the first couple installments of Lost. Her questions to Jack were approximately, "Why are you not afraid?" and "How do you know so much?" She asked Charlie whether they'd met before; possibly she'd been involved in recruiting him, and wanted to make sure he didn't recognize her. She asked Sawyer how he knew a certain passenger had been a US marshal. You give the wrong answer to Kate for any of those questions, you die "accidentally".

If you look very closely, you can also see her cuing the supposed "pilot" to "wake up" and go into his act. Then she assisted him in the "monster" illusion.

Of course this means the "marshal" wasn't a marshal, and was part of the plot with her. But he was double crossed. I've been guessing he's the equivalent of the Comedian character from Watchmen.

Robert
Great reference to the Watchmen...

Way to many things don't add up here about this crash. I HOPE that when all this plays out we all don't go.."H'UH!!?"

That would really suck..

There are a lot of really good theories on this thread. I definitely lean toward the 'no real crash' theory, but whether it's all part of virtual reality or an evil plot, or both, I'm not sure yet.

I keep remembering the plane boarding scene in Exodus, when Hurley and Walt exchange smiles and Hurley gives him the 'thumbs up' sign...it always seemed to me like they knew each other or were sharing something. Michael even looks surpised at the exchange. And Walt was playing a game at the time.

It seems almost impossible that it wasn't a real plane crash. But if it wasnt an actual plane crash, then those who died had to be targeted somehow. But why?

Maybe its not staged...just some massive virtural reality experiment. Maybe that was what Walt was when he appeared to Shannon...a glitch in the system. I mean the flashbacks show them getting on the plane, so for the crash to be staged their memories would have had to been staged also, no?

Good post. So why as Claire pulled out? Did get Claire get to loose in the experiment when she was freaking out. Than she comes back and is nice and calm again after her initial shock of not knowing anyone I mean. Also, where did Charlie get the gun to off that dude? That sort of got left off or I missed where he got the gun from .

It was Jack's gun...he dropped it after tackling Ethan...Charlie picked it up and you know the rest...

You sure, I thought he dropped a black gun and than was firinig chrome piece. Will have to look again to be sure.

You sure, I thought he dropped a black gun and than was firinig chrome piece. Will have to look again to be sure.
With this show? I am NEVER sure of anything. Someone could post the ocean is actually whipped cream and I would go "Really? How did I miss that one??"

But I am pretty sure there was a dropped gun..wether it is the gun Charlie picked up or not I am not sure...I just know Jack was walloping Ethan so he didn't have his...

OMG ive been thinking that these so called crashes were some kinda hoax. I think that the survivors were picked and planted there by some secret government group.
they were giving hallucinagents( however you spell it) and strategicly placed on this island.

I kinda of touched on this in another thread....

I can get on board with the plane crash being staged. But in order to pull of such an eloborate hoax, you think they would leave some signs behind. Like how do you plant half an airplane on the beach w/o heavy equipment, or in the middle of a jungle? Plus you need people, lots of people to do this. Yes they could be hinding on a different part of the island. If Locke can spot boar tracks, you think he would miss a human sneaker or boot print? The logistics are staggering for pulling this off?

I'm leaning either way with this. But what a great thread.

With this show? I am NEVER sure of anything. Someone could post the ocean is actually whipped cream and I would go "Really? How did I miss that one??"

But I am pretty sure there was a dropped gun..wether it is the gun Charlie picked up or not I am not sure...I just know Jack was walloping Ethan so he didn't have his...

I remember Jack's gun being dropped of course, and to me it was black when it hit but than it was silver when Charlie used it. Just an error in prop or Charlie was hiding a gun in his guitar case.

It seems almost impossible that it wasn't a real plane crash. But if it wasnt an actual plane crash, then those who died had to be targeted somehow. But why?

(I take it you mean "died" in the sense of "disappeared".)

To be used as pawns in a hoax to convince the world falsely of something big that's supposed to be good for us. In Watchmen it was to make people think the world was under threat from outside the Earth -- a plot theme previously used in an Outer Limits episode (Architects of Fear seemed to be acknowledged by Watchmen) and in a short story, The Martian Shop, I'm told -- so the nations would unite and stop fighting each other. In Lost I don't know what it's going to be yet.

The Losties are being prepared. If they can be convinced to key in some numbers every 104-108 min., they can be convinced to do anything, and they can convince others when they get off Craphole.

Robert

C. Kate is part of the operation, as an observer of the social/psychological/medical/etc. experiment, capturing actual field data, disguised as a "trusted" passenger placed within the realm of theose being observed.

-Mang
(I put an extra splash of conspiracy in my Mang Tang tonight...)

Look at Kate at 32:53 of episode 1, disc 1 of the DVDs; she's cuing the "pilot". Then see 29:21 of episode 4, disc 1; she's deliberately dropping the radio. At 29:27, she smiles at the monster's approach.

Robert

Ok, now I’m getting on board with this theory. Kate’s behavior seems very suspect.

On another level, I’m digging what abstrakt32 wrote:
“Maybe they are part of the experiment.
Locke could not walk in his flashbacks now he can.
Michael didnt have his son in his flashbacks now he has (or had) Walt.
Jack has problems with faith and miracles now he's in a situation were it's all around him. This could be to see how they react in these situations…”

Everyone on the island seems to be working on some emotional issue. Claire is learning to be a mother. Charlie is learning to be a nurturer and deal with addiction. Michael is learning about fatherhood. The list seems to go on and on…
I think this is a psychosocial experiment about group dynamics and individual perception… Also, the monsters (“security systems, shark, polar bear”) all seems to be manifestations of the psyche as well, keeping the “survivors” from leaving the parimeters of the experimental playing field…

Ok, now I’m getting on board with this theory. Kate’s behavior seems very suspect.

On another level, I’m digging what abstrakt32 wrote:
“Maybe they are part of the experiment.
Locke could not walk in his flashbacks now he can.
Michael didnt have his son in his flashbacks now he has (or had) Walt.
Jack has problems with faith and miracles now he's in a situation were it's all around him. This could be to see how they react in these situations…”

Everyone on the island seems to be working on some emotional issue. Claire is learning to be a mother. Charlie is learning to be a nurturer and deal with addiction. Michael is learning about fatherhood. The list seems to go on and on…
I think this is a psychosocial experiment about group dynamics and individual perception… Also, the monsters (“security systems, shark, polar bear”) all seems to be manifestations of the psyche as well, keeping the “survivors” from leaving the parimeters of the experimental playing field…

yes it s interesting, maybe there is two claire due to the first is bad for the experiment and that the hallucinations are memories, and maybe vincent is the island that s why shannon has hallucinations

I love this thread!

Ok, so the plane didn't crash. The survivors are merely participating in some sort of experiment, without them knowing.

Originally Posted by LostElphie1287
It seems almost impossible that it wasn't a real plane crash. But if it wasnt an actual plane crash, then those who died had to be targeted somehow. But why?

Good point. Because a lot of the survivors didn't want/plan to be on flight 815 in the first place.

* Jack is bringing home his dead father, almost got rejected boarding the plane;
* Sun wanted to escape her husband on the airport, but on the final moment she decided to stay with him;
* Claire is very reluctant to go to the US, where she was going to give up her child;
* Kate surely didn't want to be on that flight
* Sawyer is thrown out of the country (I guess) and also doesn't want to be on that plane
* At the time, Michael didn't want to pick up his son and bring him to back to the US
* Walt doesn't want to be on the plane, wants to stick with his 'new' father
* Locke wanted to do a walkabout, but is rejected and sent home

So, what does that say? Does it mean they all SHOULD have been on the plane (and of course, they all were). It supports the experiment-conspiracy, I think.

But why would it be a hoax? How could the plane crash not be real? It just seems that there is a reason why the plane crash occured, just like the Black Rock and the Nigerian plane crashed onto the island for a reason.

C. Kate is part of the operation, as an observer of the social/psychological/medical/etc. experiment, capturing actual field data, disguised as a "trusted" passenger placed within the realm of theose being observed.

But if that were the case, would she really be playing the part of a con? That certainly wouldn't get her on everyone's side. Was there just not enough emotional stress going on at the beach that the experimentors needed to shake things up a bit by making her a murderous criminal?

I think she was lying about being awake, or at least believed she was awake because she couldn't reach the mask to be knocked out by the oxygen.

But, I certainly do believe the crash was set up and that the realities of the passengers are being manipulated.

I started a thread in the Spoiler Theory section with a similiar idea entitled "How Do You Bring Down a Plane?" (I pasted it here for those that do not want to venture into Spoiler areas)

I have been thinking about the plane crash and asking myself "How do you bring down a plane?"

- Shoot it down with another plane or missle. This would most certainly bring it down, but depending on where you hit it, there is no guarantee that you would have anything left to safely bring down your survivors.

- Pull it down with a giant magnetic tractor beam. While this works well in Star Trek and other sci-fi movies, it can't be done today. The magnetic nature of the island could generate a large magnetic pull, except most airplanes are made of metals that are not magnetically attactive (aluminum, titanium, etc.).

- Land it. This is the easist and the only way to make sure all of the passengers arrive at the "crash site" intact.

When Kate was talking about the crash with Jack (I believe), Jack mentions that he blacked out and didn't remember anything. Kate said that "she saw everything." This has always bothered me. If the passengers were drugged (food and drinks), then the crash we see is really a mass halucination implanted in the collective memories of the "survivors." Since Kate was handcuffed, she was not able to finish her drink. She also was not able to get her oxygen mask on quickly, and may have missed most of the sleeping drug introduced through the mask.

The plane could be landed someplace else and the "survivors" placed at their appropriate "crash" site that had already been established by the Dharma/Others. How the survivors react and interact could all be part of the overall island experiment (ala "Lord of the Flies" or "Survivor Meets CastAway").

[ New Observation ] Was watching the end of last season when Jack and Ana were talking. Jack said his seat was 23B. When he sat down in the plane, he went to the window seat. In most commercial aircraft, the A seat is always a window seat. Just before the turbulance hits, Jack gets up and starts to leave his seat. He then drops down into the seat by the isle which is his correct seat location 23B not the window 23A.

Not sure that means anything, but on this show everything means something ... just a matter of degree.

Let's start with a few questions: Have we seen the plane crash? Really seen it crash? Or have we seen it crash/break apart from the characters point of view?

Maybe the plane never crashed, but the people on board think or "remember" it crashing.

1. The tail broke off in mid-flight, no one realistically could have survived that, much less the fall into the ocean, and then make it to land on the OTHER side of island. (Unless it never actually broke off and the people were made to think it did)

2. The back stories are always from the characters point of view. Are we sure that they are recalling what "actually happened" or is it what they "remember happening"? Not necessarily the same thing. What is happening on the island is the only thing that we can actually believe, I think.

3. The "Orientation Video" gives evidence that island is part of a psych experiment. Notice in the video they showed a polar bear? Could that be part of some subliminal implant? I am tracking off-course here, but it is somewhat related.

4. Notice how different the front (oraganized) and back (seem tribal) the two halves of plane are? I admit, this is stretching it a bit. But it is like some of the other light v. dark theories (experiments?).

Well, this is the first rough cut and is open to comment. What do you think? Plausible? I am sure that is more evidence to support this theory than my tired mind can remember just now.

That totally reminds me of a book I read. The main character thought he was experiencing a life, but found out later that he was just experiencing through a very real computer simulation. I think it was called Dragonfly or something like that. It was really shocking when you found out that everything was cg and simulated.

Makes sense all around.

Now, in interviews and the like, creators said something like the first season was the survivors' first 40 days on Craphole Island. What if that's not true either? I mean, the "theislandiswaiting" script red herrings make me less and less trusting of these duders. That said, I think the VR/CGI scenario is a bit farfetched. I seem to recall that the Powers That Be said that everything on the show will have a logical and realistic (ha!) conclusion.

It's my understanding that elaborate memory implantation would take a while. First, there's the creating of and getting all those peoples' stories straight among test designers, let alone the subjects. Then, there's the time needed to break and reprogram the peoples' minds. And, let's not forget the space involved for housing, feeding and mind-destroying 40+ people.

Enter the hatch(es). The Swan doesn't look to be big enough for a large-scale brainwashing facility. The TailSection one (the Arrow? see my lingering quesitons thread) does indeed look large enough to house quite a few of your zombie mindslaves. Heck, looks like said mindslaves are returning to roost.

Desmond has been there at least three years...and I'm not convinced him being there is a mistake. Being there that long may've been an accident/mistake, but I feel like he's a plant. "But I_M_A, if that's true, how's come he didn't recognize Kate?" Well, different American/worldwide campuses for training of operatives seems a good idea. If Hanso/Dharma is big enough to pull of the island at all, who's to say how far their reach is?

Now, let's talk the clean/dirty hatch issue. In the Season 2 premier, much was made of the fact that the Des story at the beginning shows a well-maintained and homey hatch, which changes abruptly when Jack & co. enter. It appears old, grimy, and starting to fall into disrepair. Again, I ask: who knows the scope Dharma/Hanso will go? If they're staging the crash, the monster, etc., who's to say they wouldn't dirty up/age a place to go along with their own reality.

Whew.

Thanks for reading all that. Hope it made sense. :confused:

Well these are all interesting things to think about, but I don't think they are going to be the answers on Lost. It's not a very existential show, which is what a lot of these theories seem to point.

For all you know, you are not actually posting here right now at all, you are part of someone's imagination in a VR simulator that is being pacified for biological experiments by creating an alternate reality for them to live in while scientists pump them full of drugs. Think about it; when has there EVER been a show this good on network television? NEVER!! That's because it's NOT REAL DUDE. It's not possible to make a show this good and everybody knows it. Face it. We're all a figment of someone else's imagination. When they wake up; POOF.

I seem to recall that the Powers That Be said that everything on the show will have a logical and realistic (ha!) conclusion.
Which doesn't really say much imho. One could make a pretty good case of why/how 2001 could be considered "logical and realistic" (scientifically plausible explanations to explain something extravagant / fantastical).

It's my understanding that elaborate memory implantation would take a while. First, there's the creating of and getting all those peoples' stories straight among test designers, let alone the subjects. Then, there's the time needed to break and reprogram the peoples' minds. And, let's not forget the space involved for housing, feeding and mind-destroying 40+ people.
This project may have been going on for many (MANY) years... and past 2004. The "survivors" as we see them now may not be in 2004 at all but some point in the not-too-distant future. They believe it's 2004 because they've been programmed, conditioned, whathaveyou to believe it. I'd also presume they would have probably never been anywhere else but the island... raised there all their lives. Their flashbacks, the plane crash... it's all fake, staged by Hanso / Dharma.

Enter the hatch(es). The Swan doesn't look to be big enough for a large-scale brainwashing facility.
Of course, there is an underbelly to even the Swan hatch... what if it goes even deeper?

The TailSection one (the Arrow? see my lingering quesitons thread) does indeed look large enough
Possibly, but there could be up to at least four other hatches on the island. We don't know how big any of those are. They could be monstrous. However, I lean more towards the idea of a possible enormous underground / underwater facility under "the island" and maybe surrounding it as well.

Desmond has been there at least three years...and I'm not convinced him being there is a mistake. Being there that long may've been an accident/mistake, but I feel like he's a plant.
I'm leaning towards him being a plant too. When Jack questions him about if he's in contact with those who did this to him, Desmond answers with another question. "Do you think if I were, I'd still be down here?" Well... yes, I think he would... if he's down there willingly.

Unless he's also in the same boat as the "survivors" (his "shipwreck" may be no more real than the Lostaways "plane crash"), he just doesn't realize it.

Again, I ask: who knows the scope Dharma/Hanso will go? If they're staging the crash, the monster, etc., who's to say they wouldn't dirty up/age a place to go along with their own reality.
Or they just abandoned the "Arrow" Hatch because it was no longer needed. How many vacant, derelict buildings can you find in a big city at any given time? Probably plenty.

It seems almost impossible that it wasn't a real plane crash. But if it wasnt an actual plane crash, then those who died had to be targeted somehow. But why?

Ok.. The only thing that bothers me about this theory is just that! Ok to bring people to study them or whatever (not so morally ok, but acceptable) , but to kill a bunch of them beffore the whole thing starts?

If the people were dying because of the stay in the island, I would accept it. But if they do follow with the crash was faked, they are going to have to explain why some of the passengers died before hand.

I'm leaning towards him being a plant too. When Jack questions him about if he's in contact with those who did this to him, Desmond answers with another question. "Do you think if I were, I'd still be down here?"


That quote bothers me.

If Desmond crashed on the island he would have responded something to the effect that "I don't know who to contact" or "I got here by accident" or something like that.

Instead he responded as if he knew who to talk to, but did not know how to reach them.

He knows more than he is willing to tell Jack.

I'm now believing that they were in fact brain-washed and that maybe the crash didn't happen.

Cuz why the heck couldn't Claire remember what Ethan did to her?

yay! someone dissected my ramblings. \/\/007!

Kate was in handcuffs...
and when we see her with Jack sewing him up, WaLa...No cuffs...

I can get on board with the plane crash being staged. But in order to pull of such an eloborate hoax, you think they would leave some signs behind. Like how do you plant half an airplane on the beach w/o heavy equipment, or in the middle of a jungle? Plus you need people, lots of people to do this. Yes they could be hinding on a different part of the island. If Locke can spot boar tracks, you think he would miss a human sneaker or boot print? The logistics are staggering for pulling this off?

Our Lostaways are pretty clueless. They have not explored the island, completely missed the hatch door, did not bother to investigate the cable leading to/from the water... It would not surprise me one bit that they were not perceptive enough to pick up on any clues left behind. To give them some credit :smile: , unless you *know* what you are looking for sometimes its hard to spot inconsistencies. I don't think any of them suspect a staged crash at this point.

old boat man: "Plane crash huh? Well, how bout that."

Great point. Wow, totally forgot about that. His tone was definitely mocking.

Kate was in handcuffs...
and when we see her with Jack sewing him up, WaLa...No cuffs...

There was a scene showing her reaching into the marshals pockets to get the key because she couldn't reach the oxygen mask with the cuffs on...

Yep...she took off the cuffs on the plane..that's why they found them on the beach and used them on Jin...

Hi All,

With regards to LosingIt's post: I also started suspecting this after Exodus part III, when the raft crew encounter the people on the boat.

old man on boat: "What's going on? What you folks doing this far out here."
Michael: "We were in a plane crash....."
old boat man: "Plane crash huh? Well, how bout that."
Michael: "We were on an island....flight 815............."
old man on boat: "Hey, it's a good thing we found you."
Michael: continues to explain....
old man on boat: "Well ain't that something."

To me, the old man talks as if he does not believe Michael and even sounds as if he is mocking him or being sarcastic. I thought this could be one of a few things:

1) The group of people on the boat had the 40+ survivors under surveillance and already knew they were in a plane crash.

2) The group of people on the boat had the 40+ survivors under surveillance and were responsible for bringing down the plane intentionally.

3) The group of people on the boat had the 40+ survivors under surveillance and knew that the survivors were NOT in a plane crash... the survivors were only led to believe they were in a plane crash by something on the island.

Also, writing the dialogue above reminded me of something. Both the old man and Desmond kind of seem surprised that people were trying to get off the island using a raft, almost as if they knew it would not work.

I agree.
I always thought there was something fishy about the way the bearded man talked to Michael. I guess I dismissed it as him just being a *******, but I think you might be onto something. It's a great idea.

ARG...thats right...Okay, thanks for the refresher

back to the conspiracy theory....

This project may have been going on for many (MANY) years... and past 2004. The "survivors" as we see them now may not be in 2004 at all but some point in the not-too-distant future. They believe it's 2004 because they've been programmed, conditioned, whathaveyou to believe it. I'd also presume they would have probably never been anywhere else but the island... raised there all their lives. Their flashbacks, the plane crash... it's all fake, staged by Hanso / Dharma.

I think that you are unto something there. This would make alot of the theories about implanted memories make sense.....

I think that you are unto something there. This would make alot of the theories about implanted memories make sense.....
Elaborating on what I said earlier a bit, I actually think real time (or the "real world", as Morpheus might call it) ended in 2004. Some huge apocalyptic event that wiped out most or all of the population of the planet (maybe accidentally or, more likely, intentionally caused by Hanso / Dharma). This is why the "crash" on this "island" had to happen when it did. Real-time ended September 2004, so thus the Lostaways would have memories of the "real world" they believe they've left until 2004 ... but no further. Anything else would have had to be completely fabricated by Dharma/Hanso and, in theory, they were unwilling to do that. So, instead, they drop them on this "island" (if it is an island) when the "real world" memories, essentially, run-out per se. The Lostaways are allowed to "wake up". Like Will Farnaby waking up to the mynah birds in Huxley's Island ("Attention! Attention!"). Except, Jack didn't really wake up to a utopia (even if it seems that way on the surface.... a paradise, tropical island).... more like a dystopia a la Brave New World (a world completely created and controlled by Dharma / Hanso).

Again, the Lostaways themselves are not in 2004. It hasn't been "September 2004" for, maybe, decades. However, we can't get too far ahead of 2004 mostly due to the items in Desmond's hatch. Unless those items were actually built and created on the island (which I suppose is a possibility). If it were, for example, two hundred years in the future, many of those items would probably falling apart after 200 or more years. They seemed in fairly descent shape by the looks of them. It still could be the future, but not *that* far ahead.

Elaborating on what I said earlier a bit, I actually think real time (or the "real world", as Morpheus might call it) ended in 2004. Some huge apocalyptic event that wiped out most or all of the population of the planet (maybe accidentally or, more likely, intentionally caused by Hanso / Dharma). This is why the "crash" on this "island" had to happen when it did. Real-time ended September 2004, so thus the Lostaways would have memories of the "real world" they believe they've left until 2004 ... but no further. Anything else would have had to be completely fabricated by Dharma/Hanso and, in theory, they were unwilling to do that. So, instead, they drop them on this "island" (if it is an island) when the "real world" memories, essentially, run-out per se. The Lostaways are allowed to "wake up". Like Will Farnaby waking up to the mynah birds in Huxley's Island ("Attention! Attention!"). Except, Jack didn't really wake up to a utopia (even if it seems that way on the surface.... a paradise, tropical island).... more like a dystopia a la Brave New World (a world completely created and controlled by Dharma / Hanso).

Again, the Lostaways themselves are not in 2004. It hasn't been "September 2004" for, maybe, decades. However, we can't get too far ahead of 2004 mostly due to the items in Desmond's hatch. Unless those items were actually built and created on the island (which I suppose is a possibility). If it were, for example, two hundred years in the future, many of those items would probably falling apart after 200 or more years. They seemed in fairly descent shape by the looks of them. It still could be the future, but not *that* far ahead.

That is the exact same speculation that people have made about Lord of the Flies another story of a crash on a deserted island. Hmmmm. . .

i believe that the mocking tone of voice used by the Others to Michael isn't odd for a couple of reasons. if we are to assume that the plane crash *was* real, then i would imagine it would be hard to miss if the Others live on the island as well, regardless of if they were responsible for it or not. not only that but if we're assuming Ethan was one of the Others then they obviously know that they all had crashed (as Ethan was posing as one of them).

if we're assuming that the plane crash was *not* real (and i think perhaps the cast surviving might just be a factor of 'suspension of disbelief'), then i would question why the Others would want Walt at all. or why it seemed they wanted Claire's unborn baby originally, but then changed to Walt. it would make more sense that they are not sure what they're looking for either. guess it depends on if we think this is a science oriented show or a mystical one, doesn't it? ;-)

i did have the thought that they might all be in some sort of rehab earlier in season one, but as time has gone on i have decided that most of the fans would lynch the creators if at the end of the series they 'woke up'. (unless i suppose they 'wake up' and it becomes a whole new type of being 'lost', ie: trying to find out who did this to them, etc) :-) either way, i'm enjoying the ride and these posts!

I think the plane crash was real...sort of.

I think the plane was brought down intensionally, carved up in sections and lowered to the ground safely via either a pulse magnetic beam or some kind of psychokinetic force. Each section brought down far enough way so that the passengers can more easly be dealt with.

I think they key passengers were selected in advance by Hanso operatives, each specifically selected. The rest would be the "Controll" group, like you'd have with lab rats. I think seating was important, the team or whoever got to the crash site before they awoke needed to "program" them, either for control or for the experiment.

My main reason for thinking this starts with Jack in scene 1, episode 1. He's lying in a Bamboo grove, no indication via broken limbs or schutes as to how he got there uninjurred.

Then you have the flight attendants and their "juice". Plus it seemed that they got too upset about Charlie being in the bathroom and then the ensuing chase. Why did he need to be in his seat? Sure the "Fasten Seatbelt" sign was on but he would have gone back. Was there a schedule to keep?

Then, at the gate when Hurley begged the attendant to let him on the flight, she spoke to a "Mr Hunter". Come on, "Hunter"? You don't need to be Fellini to figure that one out. "Mr. Hunter" let Hurley on board.

I don't think I'm on to anything deep, just pointing out stuff I've caught(?) so far.

what do thy do then get rid of all of their memories??? why were they brought there - who staged it -- what was with all the dead bodies that they burned then ? if it were staged who were they?

My thoughts :

I am wondering if there is something about most of them having lots of money ? could they have paid for some sort of virtual reality experience ?

Boone / Shannon - wedding dress empire - Kate - had access to a bank vault:rolleyes: Jack the doctor, Hurley the lottery winner, Sawyer the con man, Locke - the loner - could have had money through life savings or even compensation for being made paraplegic ? , Sayid - terrorist funds ? Sun - rich father, Charlie - bandmember, Claire - could have sold her unborn child for adoption, Micheal - may have inherited something from his deceased wife...

I honestly hope this is not the real situation. I would rather it be that it is some sort of governement scientific experiment type of thing even if some there is some alien involvement.:undecide: :lipsseal: :o

I believe as I have from the beginning that this is just a mind ****. Danielle and Desmond are just playing along, and the others are the results of the last bunch that were "tested".
Remember kiddies, its not personal, it business....

My thoughts :

I am wondering if there is something about most of them having lots of money ? could they have paid for some sort of virtual reality experience ?

Boone / Shannon - wedding dress empire - Kate - had access to a bank vault:rolleyes: Jack the doctor, Hurley the lottery winner, Sawyer the con man, Locke - the loner - could have had money through life savings or even compensation for being made paraplegic ? , Sayid - terrorist funds ? Sun - rich father, Charlie - bandmember, Claire - could have sold her unborn child for adoption, Micheal - may have inherited something from his deceased wife...

I honestly hope this is not the real situation. I would rather it be that it is some sort of governement scientific experiment type of thing even if some there is some alien involvement.:undecide: :lipsseal: :o

Most of them have money because they were on an international flight. Very few poor people fly around internationally.

Also, if they were poor people, the flashbacks would be too depressing. There are no poor people on TV, unless you are watching the news. There are people who claim poverty and appear to have low paying jobs, but then they have Bose audio equipment and designer clothes and nice cars etc.

The writers of Lost are trying to be at least a little bit realistic, so most of the characters have money.

You've a point. I have read a great deal of literature. In SF there is a thematic about people waking up somewhere when they were supposed to have been some-where-else....
A book (John Varley, I think) wrote a story called 'Air Raid' which in turn became a novel Millenium which was about how people were rescued from the past and sent far ahead into the future (a decent movie starring Cheryl Ladd and Kris Kristofferson was made out of it). Airplanes were associated with it. Another story, from the late 60's early 1970's was called 'Seahorse in the Sky' with a similar thematic. I happen to enjoy all the twists and turns....

(This is my first post, please be gentle if I f*** something up :))

This thread prompted me to register and finally "de-lurk". I have been thinking about this idea more and more and I really think that this whole thing may be a mind experiment/implanted memories experiment. Four things have bothered me (okay, more than three, but only four that pertain to this thread!). First, the marshall slugged Kate while they were in the little police office (or whatever that place was) before the flight. Yet, she never had a bruise. Second, when Boone visited Shannon (I believe it was about 2-3 days, max, before the flight). Yet Shannon never had a bruise after the crash. Third, Charlie made a comment about checking his guitar, yet in the "flashback" that we saw, he was stuffing it in the cabinet on board the plane. Fourth, at a time when there was no more fresh water left over and people were starting to suffer, Jack sees a "ghost" who miracously leads him to fresh water.

Now, the lack of bruises would be consistent with the mind implants. That is, let's say you THINK that you got decked by the marshall or beaten up by your boyfriend, and that's what you remember. But in reality, that never happened--you were just given a mind implant to think that it happened. So, no bruise. (I only fixated on the bruise thing because I used to work with battered women/men, and I know that bruises last a pretty long time). Regarding Charlie, his memory implant could have obscured what he really did what with the guitar (that is, he really didn't check it, as we saw in the flashback, but the implant scrambled his brain and he thinks he did). Lastly, the "ghost" of Jack's dad could have been a "plant" by whomever is controlling this dastardly experiment. I mean, if everyone dies of thrist in the first week, your mind control experiment isn't gonna work too well so you need to keep them alive, by "leading" them to water.

The mind implant thing would answer some other questions for me, as well. That is, the reason why there was no body in Jack's dad's coffin is that there was no dead dad to begin with...his implant just told him that. Further, if there was some giant mind implant/brain washing session (like in the Manchurian Candidate), one of the brainwashers could have repeated the numbers at some point, and that is why the numbers show up so much in the "memories". What I mean is, in movies like the Man. Candidate, little residual memories often intertwine themselves into the fake memories. So, if there were references during the brainwashing/implant sessions to the numbers, then the numbers may have somehow wound themselves into the fake implant memories. I hope that makes sense...like many things, it's clear in my mind but I'm not sure if I am explaining it well :)

If this idea turns out to be true, it'd be interesting to see who they "really" are. That is, who's to say that some of them aren't married in "real life", or complete opposites of the "personas" that they have been given. It would be interesting if this is true, and it turns out that they are really different people, if they choose to stay in these "personas". That is, if Kate is really a boring, predictable person who has been given mind implants/brain washing to think she is an on-the-run fugitive...well, maybe in the last episode she will get her memory back but decide to keep the "bad ***" persona that she has been living. (I might!)

I hope this makes sense, and I hope it was okay for a first post!!

Patti

Welcome, PattiJD! That was a very well thought out post. I also lean to the "no real crash" theory but I've never even thought of the reasons you mention.

You bring up the issue of pre-flight bruises and one thing that I've always questioned was why the survivors seem to have crashed with no apparent bruises at all. Now, the people who were badly injured in the pilot episode (like the guy with the crushed leg) seem to have died, but our main Lostaways have very few cuts, scratches or bruises. Jack was the only one with anything that even required stitches and Rose needed CPR, but no one else seems hurt at all. Just some more food for thought.

.

Thanks, Belshep :)

There is also the fact that Jack somehow "landed" in the jungle...I've never been able to figure that out. Oh heck, I haven't been able to figure out lots :)

Patti

There is also the fact that Jack somehow "landed" in the jungle...I've never been able to figure that out. Oh heck, I haven't been able to figure out lots :)Patti

Yes, Jack and Vincent were apart from everyone else...curious, isn't it?

Also curious is the fact that jack fell into a forest of bamboo and was not shredded into pieces by broken Bamboo. When broken Bamboo can be as sharp as a knife.

Right, Me! He somehow managed to land flat on his back in a clearing between the bamboo stalks.

Sayid mentioned the fact that they were pretty much unharmed after the crash in one of the season one eps.

Bamfer, I remember that...as I recall, Sayid also thought it was rather strange.

Jack did get a cut guys, remember Kate had to sow him up but yes maybe more injuries or less? Fate. Who knows. It does happpen though. Remember that Canada flight not to long ago skidded off the runway and everyone got off in less than 2 min before it burst into flames.

This is something nobody but Locke can really grasp...there is no way they could survive that crash with superficial wounds. How did Jack get where he was without slicing himself to ribbons? Vincent in the same place as Jack is really weird. The engine still running detached from the plane is not possible either...something about this says staged...I think much more is going to happen to show us how these people didn't get torn to pieces and frozen solid from that height with that force of air coming in....what a great show.

I think the plane crashed mainly for one reason: The obvious explanation is that the plane did not crash because its impossible. TPTB WANT us to think that it didn't crash. It wouldnt be a shock (unless they really dont care at this point what we think and want to take the show in another direction) since that would be the easy solution.

Sorry, not to keep beating a dead horse, but I was discussing this with my husband, and he reminded me about the pilot episode, when Boone tried to give someone (Rose, I think?) mouth-to-mouth, but was doing it wrong. When Jack ran over to him to correct him, Boone said something like, "I'm a certified (lifeguard?)" (sorry it's late and I can't remember exactly) and Jack made a crack like, "You might want to seriously think about giving that license back." Well, the Manchurian Candidate brainwashing idea would support that...if you've been brainwashed to think you are a lifeguard, but don't actually have the skills, then you wouldn't know how to perform basic CPR skills. Also, the mind plants would explain (for me anyway) how Shannon has been through so much (marriage, living in France for quite some time, etc.) and only be 20 years old. (Although I guess there are other explanations for that).

Patti

PattiJD - the lifeguard thing is also questioned when Boone almost drowns as he swims out to try and save Joanna. Jack has to save him.

Just look at Kate's lines in disc 1 of the DVD set from the first couple installments of Lost. Her questions to Jack were approximately, "Why are you not afraid?" and "How do you know so much?" She asked Charlie whether they'd met before; possibly she'd been involved in recruiting him, and wanted to make sure he didn't recognize her. She asked Sawyer how he knew a certain passenger had been a US marshal. You give the wrong answer to Kate for any of those questions, you die "accidentally".

If you look very closely, you can also see her cuing the supposed "pilot" to "wake up" and go into his act. Then she assisted him in the "monster" illusion.

Of course this means the "marshal" wasn't a marshal, and was part of the plot with her. But he was double crossed. I've been guessing he's the equivalent of the Comedian character from Watchmen.

Robert

I do not believe Kate is part of this. When she was being chased by the monster(pilot ep) she was afraid. She was alone in the tree(hiding) counting to 5. There was no one around for to to be "acting" afraid. She was genuinely scared.

Good point, cullmnt, why would she act that way when she's all alone? If she was acting, we should have seen her messing herself up a little to be convincing when she found someone else. I agree, in that at least, she was being sincere.

I do not believe Kate is part of this. When she was being chased by the monster(pilot ep) she was afraid. She was alone in the tree(hiding) counting to 5. There was no one around for to to be "acting" afraid. She was genuinely scared.

She was afraid their act might not have been convincing enough! In which case she might have to kill somebody, or have him killed.

But a few episodes afterward (sorry I don't have the time reference on the DVD with me right now), there's a close-up of her hands deliberately dropping the radio from up in the tree. If that doesn't convince you, what would?

Robert

I was awake last night thinking about the Lost theories, and I thought why could the plane not be tracked by satellite if it crashed ?:confused: would this have something to do with the magnetic field on the island acting as some sort of force field hiding the island ? I remembered the dome in the dharma filmstrip and thought it might represent a type of cloak on the island. I do think it was a staged crash of sort otherwise there would be no survivors unless they were reanimated...:undecide:

She was afraid their act might not have been convincing enough! In which case she might have to kill somebody, or have him killed.

But a few episodes afterward (sorry I don't have the time reference on the DVD with me right now), there's a close-up of her hands deliberately dropping the radio from up in the tree. If that doesn't convince you, what would?

Robert


Nobody was around to see her "act afraid"..why would she put on a show for herself....There are other theories out there suggesting even Rose could be in on it..but when she saved the candy bar for Bernard(and again no other losties saw her do this) then that theory doesn't pan out. I could see anyone who is in on the experiment "acting" for the other lostaways..but when we (the viewing audience) see them when they are alone and do nothing shady or stop the act..then I do not believe they are in on this experiment.

the only time we see them act shady when they are alone is when they are trying to deceive the other losties for selfish reasons..like when Kate told jack about the suitcase and needed the key but tried to hide it, sawyer and his inventory, locke and the hatch..etc..but as far as a whole(meaning why they are lost) i do believe the losties(main losties) are clueless

[/i]

Ok.. The only thing that bothers me about this theory is just that! Ok to bring people to study them or whatever (not so morally ok, but acceptable) , but to kill a bunch of them beffore the whole thing starts?

exactly, that's one of the main problems I see with it also...(although great ideas posted here no question)...the problem is not so much that any would be string pullers would be willing to have some in the experiment be expendable from the start, but that "they" allegedly knew which exact ones would survive...

what I mean is even if it was staged, they still dangerously placed virtually everyone in the midst of a crash scene ...how would they know who would do what in such chaos...where they would run, walk, stay still etc...

someone got sucked into one of the turbines for c's sake, then it explodes, a large burning section of the plane drops from the sky behind Charlie, Claire almost gets crushed by a collapsing part of the plane....I'm sure there were more disasters we didn't even see in such an uncontrollable enviroment...how do you stage an outcome of who lives or dies in that scenario?

...to answer my own question though:biggrin: , maybe you don't...if it's all staged, then they just had a certain number of ones(that were pre-picked) that they firgured would survive and the rest of the survivors would be expendable.....which makes me wonder even more about all the other ones once collectively represented by Artz.....

...and if staged placement was important, what does that say about Jack, a great deal from the crash in the jungle....I can't think of anyone else in the main group placed away from the flying, burning debris, hmm..maybe Kate?...which would tie into the covert agent idea...

with that all said though, I still can buy into the idea that they were chosen and there is an experiment going on...I say this because, among many other clues, as I'm sure it's been pointed out many o' time on many a board..

...the Oceanic website has the public announcement that they've closed the business after 25yrs of being in service...with a crash date in 2004, that would place Oceanic's origins in 1979, one year before the Orientation film was made...if the announcement was '05 then it places right at 1980...so I can see how it all.looks like a multi-stage plan...

Thanks for starting this thread, LosingIT and all the awesome theories expressed here. I am a firm believer that "they are not the survivors they thought they were" because there was no plane crash. IMO, there is no way that anything could survive being exposed to the atmosphere at 40,000 feet, or a plunge from that altitude.
The only way there could have been a plane crash is if the monster could have somehow controlled the fall by guiding the plane down, but I still think the atmosphere would have killed them at that altitude.
So, I think that those people all boarded flight 815 and the passengers/crew were drugged and it was landed somewhere for them to implant memories, or whatever. Then I think the passengers were brought to the island and either placed: 1) on the beach, 2) with the tailenders, 3) the cockpit, or 4) the dead pile. We don't know that the dead were from the passengers they could have just been imported corpses.
I am wondering if this Is this apart of a game that they signed up for, to be what they couldn't be in reality (Locke-walk; Desmond-race around world; Boone-free of Shannon, Shannon to be needed, Jack to discover faith/recover from alcoholism, Sawyer to learn to be loved, Jin to be free of father-in-law, Sun to have Jin love her like he used to, Claire to have baby, Charlie to be free of drugs, Sayid to be free of terrorism, Michael to be a father, Walt to have a father), but instead they ended up part of a terrible experiment? Or is it just a game?
If its a game the hatch, Hanso, Dharma initiative, the shark are all a part of it. If it is an experiment, our losties bit off waaaaay more than they can chew. If it is an experiment, then did the nefarious ones only want Walt and Aaron? Are all of the losties a part of the plan or are some innocent bystanders?
I don't know much, but I am certain of one thing, this show ROCKS! It is a puzzle, and an event, in and of itself. Thanks for sharing the journey!:nuts:

well those are some interesting ideas...I tend to agree about the effects of exposure at that altitude of 40,000 feet including freezing...I believe Bailey's Dad explained it well including the enigma of the pilot just getting up and moving around considering Boone suffered massive internal injuries from a fall off a cliff...

...but did you also read that if it was a staged crash site, the amount of effort it would take to transport it all there...if you saw the extras on the DVD you know what I'm talking about...there would be signs left behind...considering Locke and Kate are trackers something would have been spotted..although who knows if Locke would say anything...and actually even Kate for that matter...so strike that ...I'm hoping though that we find out at least some of what been happening isn't tied to an experiment...I'm kinda missin the "supernatural"/ what the...? side of everything....

exactly, that's one of the main problems I see with it also...(although great ideas posted here no question)...the problem is not so much that any would be string pullers would be willing to have some in the experiment be expendable from the start, but that "they" allegedly knew which exact ones would survive...

what I mean is even if it was staged, they still dangerously placed virtually everyone in the midst of a crash scene ...how would they know who would do what in such chaos...where they would run, walk, stay still etc...

someone got sucked into one of the turbines for c's sake, then it explodes, a large burning section of the plane drops from the sky behind Charlie, Claire almost gets crushed by a collapsing part of the plane....I'm sure there were more disasters we didn't even see in such an uncontrollable enviroment...how do you stage an outcome of who lives or dies in that scenario?

...to answer my own question though:biggrin: , maybe you don't...if it's all staged, then they just had a certain number of ones(that were pre-picked) that they firgured would survive and the rest of the survivors would be expendable.....which makes me wonder even more about all the other ones once collectively represented by Artz.....

...and if staged placement was important, what does that say about Jack, a great deal from the crash in the jungle....I can't think of anyone else in the main group placed away from the flying, burning debris, hmm..maybe Kate?...which would tie into the covert agent idea...

with that all said though, I still can buy into the idea that they were chosen and there is an experiment going on...I say this because, among many other clues, as I'm sure it's been pointed out many o' time on many a board..

...the Oceanic website has the public announcement that they've closed the business after 25yrs of being in service...with a crash date in 2004, that would place Oceanic's origins in 1979, one year before the Orientation film was made...if the announcement was '05 then it places right at 1980...so I can see how it all.looks like a multi-stage plan...

Well bud, what if we take a look at who was where when the accidents were occuring. How many "special" characters were in harms way.

I still believe that Jack's father is part of this. Look where Jack landed. In the middle of the woods, safe, by himself, away from harm...ready to get things started.

People were placed in specific areas I think...

...the only ones not near the scene or shown were Jack or Kate...don't remember seeing Sayid or Sawyer either...whether Jack's father is involved or not, if it is a conspiracy then somebody at least wants Jack alive...although I don't think he's in on it, a point was made to show him far away from it...then again, wouldn't they know that a person would be curious to find out what's going on, and being a doctor would run out there to help?...

...but did you also read that if it was a staged crash site, the amount of effort it would take to transport it all there...if you saw the extras on the DVD you know what I'm talking about...there would be signs left behind...considering Locke and Kate are trackers something would have been spotted..
Hi lightnshadows,
Actually, it was watching that extra on the DVD about creating the crash site that made me think that it would be possible to stage the crash. IMHO, it seems more probable that the crash was staged than the odds of anyone surviving it. My big question is why would it be staged?

what's going on? ...I can't say it wasn't staged, but in Hawaii it was a massive effort, lots of people and heavy equipment...an effort assisted by planes, cranes, wires, no threat of attacking Polar Bears or Others lol ...and most importantly roads to transport it all....if they dragged all that over the island without leaving a huge swath...if it's by plane they need a large enough landing strip...only 3 ways I can think of it happening...

1) by sea...weather, tides, and currents obvious problems- any amphibious landing with heavy equipment is tricky and dangerous

2) dragging over land thru the jungle....the island covers the tracks of people and things passing through it...whatever's ripping up or down the trees and plants may actually be "replacing" the foliage periodically....like a revolving horizontal door

3) the equipment was stored underground and brought up to arrange...the whole island may be "hollow"...who knows what's really built underneath it....

..or it actually did crash and they survived another way....I don't know, but as to why...Lol, have you seen those Tiberius threads:cool: ? whole novels friend, whole novels....

If this theory were true it would open up alot of possibilities. Remember when Danielle was COMPLETELY convinced Sayid was one of "the others"? Maybe they all were before they became a part of this experiment and she saw him with them but went with it after she saw he truly believed what he was saying. Also maybe Ethan is really Claire's husband and the baby is his and he chose not to participate or escaped being forced to participate. It would explain why he had it in for Charlie, he was hitting on his girl!

Just to add my 2cents here, I don't have trouble believing that they could have survived the crash with only superficial wounds. They would have to be damned lucky, but history has shown us it is possible. Just for the sake of it, ill give some examples that I know off the top of my head.
With regaurds to the temperature when the plane broke apart at that altitude, the plane was nose-diving so it would not have been high enough for long enough for them to freeze to death, or to unconciouseness. The G forces would be more of a worry and thats more than likely why they passed out. A real life example was in 1989 when a United 747 that had taken off from Honolulu, climbing through 23 000 feet (I think) lost a cargo door, along with a large section of wall and several unfortunate passengers. The plane landed safely and everyone who remained on board survived. Its more the pro-longed exposure to cold that is the killer, and the lack of oxygen at altitude, but provided it got down quick enough (2 minutes i believe) then you can survive, and considering it was diving, i suspect 2 minutes would have been more than ample time.

As for Them getting out relatively unscathed, Im sure many people here have seen footage of another unfortunate United plane, this time a DC10 literally cartwheel down a runway in Sioux City, Iowa, (it had lost Hydraulics inflight and was attempting to land. however was too fast and barelly controlled) again back in the late 80s. the pieces of plane that remained were nothing as big as what we see on the beach on LOST, and there was also a fireball when it went out of control. Amazingly, of 230 odd people on board over 150 survived, a majority of them walking away through surrounding cornfields with nothing more than scratches. There was just randomness when it came to who made it out and who didnt, but again, real life has shown us that its not THAT infaessible for people to survive such a crash, with only minor injuries. It seems to be just a matter of luck.

And lastly, i have been told that the engine still running on the beach is in fact technically possible- i for one dont believe it however i have been told by friends who are aircraft engineers for Qantas, that even if the fuel line had been broken, provided there was still fuel in the line, and the pressure was still there, then it 'could' keep running, though id say its damned near unlikely.

Just rambling i know, and i must say i totally support the idea that this could have been all staged, however i think its good to see real life similarities before discounting the reality of the situation. I guess, it 'could' have happened exactly as we have seen- as improbable as it may seem.

have you seen those Tiberius threads:cool: ? whole novels friend, whole novels....

yes, my brain exploded :blowup: a few times going through all that stuff
and I am only 1/2 way through the first thread.... they did quote you though on your Circle post, very impressive lightnshadows!!
..sorry for the OT post...

LightnShadows - I believe Jacks' father placed Jack in the woods for absolute safety. Of course he knew he would run out to see what was going on. Thats the point. His son would be the leader and hero. I think Jack was experiemented on by his father when he was younger, and that led his father to making sure Jack came out alive and ready to be tested. He wnated to see if the experiemnts work. Why keep him on the beach where a fluke accident could injure him. Allow him to regain his composure in the woods and then get going.

And Vincent...ohhhhh Vincent...what is he.

Vincent? it's obvious he was placed as second to last resort for chow..I kid... interesting idea...we agree if it's an experiment with placement important, Jack was supposed to live...curious though, where do you get the idea that Jack's dad is invovled and subjected him to presumably medical experiments?....

lostcape, I agree, it's been a brain meltdown since I found this board....and please, if google makes one appear smart, then call me Tesla:)...

...oh it opens a ton of possibilities, and good idea but DC, didn't we meet Aaron's father?...if Ethan is Claire's husband, well then Locke can no longer be called the strangest on the island....

...great examples Bond81...I think it's possible...in fact, it was a given before the show started to be taken apart piecemeal...the writers chose though an extreme, a combo of the two examples you gave...in the first example, the plane lost a section from it's side and some passengers but landed....the second example, the plane's outer structure was intact and it crashed during landing...here Oceanic ripped apart at such an altitude AND crashed...no landing involved...the odds aren't good but all it takes is that one out of how many million odds...the wheel of fortune...just like Hurley and the ticket, Jack and Sarah's surgery, Locke and his legs,. Jin and Sun finding each other etc...I guess it's impossible odds/miracles for all...depending how you look at one started it all...I wonder will one end it all too?....

yes lightnshadows, I was talking about the possibilities of the crash being staged and the implanted memories theory being discussed earlier in the thread.

yeah, with implanted memories, anything goes........
I would like a few implanted memories of Sawyer ....:blshing1:

I just watched Charlies flashback episode in Season 1. When the plane starts shaking, charlie gets thrown up into the ceiling of the bathroom. After that happens, he runs out of the bathroom and back to his seat and straps himself in.

Kate did use the mask. After the Marshall got knocked out by the case, she put one around him and then herself.

Jack did get a cut guys, remember Kate had to sow him up but yes maybe more injuries or less? Fate. Who knows. It does happpen though. Remember that Canada flight not to long ago skidded off the runway and everyone got off in less than 2 min before it burst into flames.


But they had landed and were on the runway. This plane broke apart @ 30k in the air and crashed into the ocean and onto the beach. That impact should have just obliterated them. I have never heard of a plane crashing into the ocean and have survivors. As someone stated earlier, if boone could die from dropping 20 feet inside the smuggler's plane, then the losties all should have been toast. The more i think about it, the less i think this was a real crash. They should all have died.

This is interesting guys....

Well if it is a hoax or whatever or some virtual reality....
Would for example....Boone.... would he still be alive then?
i know weird question, but it poped into my mind when i was reading everyones ideas

This is interesting guys....

Well if it is a hoax or whatever or some virtual reality....
Would for example....Boone.... would he still be alive then?
i know weird question, but it poped into my mind when i was reading everyones ideas

What if Boone is "dead" because he became aware of the fact that he was just in a virtual reality and they pulled him out? . . .

I don't know if the memories were implanted and then our losties were actually set on the 'Island' or if they are 'hooked in' Matrix style. Either way, I suppose Boone may be dead. But your excellent comments made me think about Boone's 'dream' about Shannon's death. Holy smokes did that seem real. And what about Sawyer's experience with the boar, and Jack with seeing his dad. All those things could be explained by implanted memories....
But even if Boone were dead, doesn't Dharma study regeneration? That could explain Locke walking....and, the others could be 'undead regenerates'???:24:

This will be long winded so here we go:
You can put a lot of the Hanso Foundations projects into this theory of no plane crash and fake memories. One interesting project to me is the Cryogenic one. Who knows how long these peopel have been out or experimented on. Also, one project does deal with regeneration. The positive spin around actual cloning is that it can be used for regeneration of limbs and organs and stuff. If this island has been doing studies like this since the 80's then it is very possible that they can clone and this theory holds true:

The "Others" are the survivors of the plane crash. A plane crash that did happen. The people we are watching are clones of them, that were raised, lived on the island in one of the Hanso foundations Utopian societies til the age we see them on the show, then cryogenically frozen to allow ages to match up, thoughts and memories implanted, set in place, and observed to see how they react to each other and the surroundings from one of Hanso Foundations many accelarated remote viewing facilites. The inconsistencies people find in different flashback as to where people sat on the plane, or how many seats there were in certain sections. People just remember what they think they remember. Also, a clone wouldn't have any of the original peoples health issues that happened post birth. Like Locke not being paralyzed. For this reason, I really wish they would have chopped off Boones leg to save him just to see if it would have grown back.
Okay, I know there was a lot in there to soak in, but I had to get it out somewhere. That felt like a good place.

Okay, now I'm tripping out. I bet they aren't doing anything as weird as we're suggesting on this page, but man wouldn't it be wild if it all WAS virtual reality.

Nobody was around to see her "act afraid"..why would she put on a show for herself....

She wasn't acting afraid, she was afraid her acting (for Jack & Charlie) hadn't been good (convincing) enough.

There are other theories out there suggesting even Rose could be in on it..but when she saved the candy bar for Bernard(and again no other losties saw her do this) then that theory doesn't pan out.

First of all, how do you know she was saving it for Bernard? Second, if she was saving for Bernard, how does that imply that she & Bernard aren't in on it, as I think?

Robert

Well, since we're dealing with the theory of implanted memory, what if there WAS a plane crash, but the Losties weren't on the plane. This is sort of combining two of the theories from this thread. The only Lostie we can say for sure DIDN'T wander to the site was Locke, as he was lying amidst the wreckage before he got up to take his first steps without his wheelchair. Others that we see at the site in the first scene of the pilot, like Charlie and Boone, could have reached the wreckage in the same manner that Jack did.

So, the Oceanic flight goes down purposely, and everyone (just about) dies. After the crash, which according to the theory is real, our set of characters begin the experiment with implanted memories of being on the plane that has now crashed. All the interactions/dialogue that characters had pre-crash could be part of the implant. Remember the bottle of alcohol Jack has in his pocket? Are we to believe that it survived the freefall intact? The director made a big deal about Jack pulling it out of his pocket at the beginning of the pilot and looking at it before he took off for the beach. Maybe that's a clue that Jack wasn't on the plane. So if Jack wasn't on the plane, several other characters could be in the same situation.

I do think the crash is real, but in thinking about the theories on the thread, it seems entirely possible that our cast of characters wasn't on the plane when it did crash.

But they had landed and were on the runway. This plane broke apart @ 30k in the air and crashed into the ocean and onto the beach. That impact should have just obliterated them. I have never heard of a plane crashing into the ocean and have survivors. As someone stated earlier, if boone could die from dropping 20 feet inside the smuggler's plane, then the losties all should have been toast. The more i think about it, the less i think this was a real crash. They should all have died.
This line of thinking is very rational. The plane broke off into three distinct sections, and each one fell from commericial cruising altitude. The impact of the crash alone would have dessimated any organized structure that the plane had, but yet we see two (and presumably three), relatively-unscathed pieces of a plane. It doesn't mesh with logic.

On that same note, and this has probably been pointed out before, why would a plane cruising in sunny skies suddenly snap into three sections from turbulence? I think the only time I've ever heard of anything even remotely similar to that was right after 9/11 when that plane's tail section snapped off just after take-off. The problems with that example are two-fold: First, the force of taking off was supposedly the reason for the plane's crash, and secondly, the crash of that plane is probably shrouded in more mystery than this show is.

I guess, what it comes down to, is that nothing about how they got to the island is plausible.

Further to the theory that they weren't on the plane, there are theroies that this island also has an underwater lab of some sort because of the power cord going into the ocean. When Ana-Lucia was asked what she remembers about the crash, she says that all she remembers was waking up in the water and then swimming to shore. If her memories were implanted then they could have been done in the underwater lab. And that's where she was set loose from.
Just more speculation.

I really hope that this theory pans out. I would LOVE a final arc of episodes where they figure out who did this to them and retaliate, Lostie-style. Then maybe, they will realize that their "real lives" sucked/were boring and run off together or something. Or, it would be cool if it turned out that in "real life", they were coupled completely differently (you know, like Jin and Kate were married or something that we wouldn't expect).

Patti

The plane broke off into three distinct sections, and each one fell from commericial cruising altitude. The impact of the crash alone would have dessimated any organized structure that the plane had, but yet we see two (and presumably three), relatively-unscathed pieces of a plane. It doesn't mesh with logic.

This is precisely why I've always leaned toward the 'no real crash' theory. People who have survived horrific plane crashes have either crashed on or close to the runway or have fallen from relatively low altitudes. I don't even think it's physically possible for a human body to survive a fall from cruising altitude. Something just doesn't add up with the crash.

Love this Thread!:41:
Ok, so for those of us who agree that there was no plane crash and our Losties were programmed to believe that there was a crash, I would love to hear your theories about WHY it happened, er, or didn't happen....
Were our all -- or some -- of our losties sought out by Hanso? Were they chosen because some are good, and some are bad to be part of an expeirment? Did they opt to participate in a VR game? Were they all broken and trying to get "fixed" somehow? Are the Others regenerated undead or just sick?
Why would someone stage something like this, and for what/whose benefit?:7:
Thanks!

Love this Thread!:41:
Ok, so for those of us who agree that there was no plane crash and our Losties were programmed to believe that there was a crash, I would love to hear your theories about WHY it happened, er, or didn't happen....
Were our all -- or some -- of our losties sought out by Hanso? Were they chosen because some are good, and some are bad to be part of an expeirment? Did they opt to participate in a VR game? Were they all broken and trying to get "fixed" somehow? Are the Others regenerated undead or just sick?
Why would someone stage something like this, and for what/whose benefit?:7:
Thanks!
This doesn't have to be staged. The idea of the plane debris on the island doesn't necessarily preclude the Purgatory theory. They could all be dead still, and their Purgatory is simply representation of the fact that they all died in a real plane crash.

yes lightnshadows, I was talking about the possibilities of the crash being staged and the implanted memories theory being discussed earlier in the thread.

of course, my bad...Lol, like someone posting on the show's site, under a theory section no less would somehow forget the episode with Aaron's biological father...very creative idea about Ethan as spouse...that would be one dark revelation, twisted and depressing even though for Claire, not to mention Charlie if one or both of their "real" memories returned....lostie style revenge, as mentioned and aptly put, would be warranted...that's just great lol, why are we turning this thing grimmer than it already is?

The "Others" are the survivors of the plane crash. A plane crash that did happen. The people we are watching are clones of them, that were raised, lived on the island in one of the Hanso foundations Utopian societies til the age we see them on the show, then cryogenically frozen to allow ages to match up, thoughts and memories implanted, set in place, and observed to see how they react to each other and the surroundings from one of Hanso Foundations many accelarated remote viewing facilites. The inconsistencies people find in different flashback as to where people sat on the plane, or how many seats there were in certain sections. People just remember what they think they remember. Also, a clone wouldn't have any of the original peoples health issues that happened post birth. Like Locke not being paralyzed. For this reason, I really wish they would have chopped off Boones leg to save him just to see if it would have grown back.
Okay, I know there was a lot in there to soak in, but I had to get it out somewhere. That felt like a good place.

...I think variations of the idea are legion around here, but still an astoundingly good idea yet equally creepy...you're saying that the "Others"(whatever group the Others actually are) were the original survivors?...they were cloned....and the cloned are our lostaways?...implanted with false memories, set loose for observing interactions with each and the environment....so there are the originals, the Others, and the imitations, our lostaways....both inhabiting and roaming around the island.....any one of our group could meet up with their doppleganger at any time.....that my friend is CRAZY...in good way and creative goes without saying....

....as said, likely far-fetched but let's say the duplicate idea was true....then a few random thoughts:
1) would that play into the weird looking and acting "Vincent" Shannon saw at night?
2) was that really Claire who returned to the group that night?
3) what a reunion if the two groups meet, do all the "Others" know they have clones?
Do any in the lostaways or tallies know? Are Desmond or Rosseau aware?
4) who were the guys on the boat? and the ones in the jungle? other members of our original group represented by Artz(he's not really "dead" gang-just teaching elsewhere)
5) different pairings PattiJD, maybe the Others are matched all different:P
6) was that "Walt", the other one, who appeared to Shannon?
7) Kate will see "Sawyer" again;) and Sun "Jin" and Boone can now re-enter the picture
8) completely new flashbacks from the group on Other side of the island
9) I'm spending way too much time on an endless and likely fruitless list lol

lostscape, good questions....I don't know why it was done...if true then I think that all of the survivors were specifically selected including the ones we never see...ours just stepped forward and became the focal point....not to mention time constraints of the show lol....although I could see it if the ones in the background were chosen to add believability and credibility to our lostaways predicament...however would it make a difference if our group were the only survivors?...or what differences, if any would exist if they knew they were the only ones?

..and although it makes for top notch drama to see our character's deal with past issues...I can't see a company spending this type of energy, time and money just to help some people deal with personal issues and problems...if it's an observed experiment, planted memories or not, those issues/memories are a tool for some other test or agenda....like Jack seeing his father for example...or maybe those issues have very little to do with the big picture and are virtually indendepent to what "they" are really trying to accomplish....

If my theory there holds true, then it could explain why the back half survivors threw michael, jin and sawyer in the hole when they first found them. They might have recoginezed them and thought they looked like some of the "others" that they have come in contact with before. One Hanso project does deal with life extension. So the "others", if they are the originals, might not be far off in age from what our losties are now. The people on the boat might be original survivors we've never met. There were some 70+ people on the plane. And about 25 or so are nameless and faceless and just part of the middle-plane survivors that wander the beach. Any of them could be clones of the boat people. I had a theory going for a while that Claire is Danielle's clone, being pregnant and all. But they just look too different. Unless of course she's a cloning experiment gone a bit wrong.

your theory wouldn't be discounted if the tailies never ran into the lookalikes...but if they did, I would think that would be a major topic of discussion between the two sides...you have to believe it would come up in the questioning if they were attacked by another Asian, AA, and long haired Southerner that actually looked like the guys they threw in the pit...then again, there hasn't been much of any dialogue between the two sides...still it's an interesting idea...

edit: actually it still wouldn't be discounted as Ana's group reacted with hostility due to the fact their group had lost so many members...who knows who Ana ran into during that time...can't wait for their flashback...

I'm not too keen on the theory regarding there being pairs of clones on the island. When Jin and Echo were lying on the ground, we saw some of the Others. You'll recall that the last of the group was a small, white person, presumably a child.

If that's the case, and if you believe in the clone idea, who is the white child a clone of? There are no white children in any of our groups - at least, none that I've seen.

Couple of postulations here:

1. There was no crash and the memories are planted
2. They are on a "island" that has both paranormal and possibly world-ending-catastrophic happenings going on as the result of the "incident"
3. They have a mission and there are "clues" being planted to help them "remember" or "guide" them to thier final objective..including the numbers
4. The planted memories have clues, which is why the numbers appear in everyone's past in some capacity
5. The planted memories have shared "characters" who represent actual people -- they most likely also work with the Losties; the Losties and the characters in thier memories may be scientists involved in the initial Dharma Initiative trying to go back in and correct the problem. The voices are thier real memories surfacing.
6. The reason for the planted memories is that the "island" or something on the island has the ability to read minds -- therefore they needed to go there with clean slates. The "island/experiment" has taken on a life of it's own due to the "incident"
7. Since island was chosen for the experiments because of it's strong magnetic fields, there may have been a shift in the magnetic fields that caused the "incident".
8. There is a "traitor" amongst the Losties (like Dr. Smith for you Lost in Space fans)
9. The Others are victims of the "incident" and are being controlled
10. The Tailers are a diversion to keep the Others busy and let the Losties accomplish their mission.
11. Vincent is a there as the Losties "guide" to help them achieve thier mission
12. Walt: haven't quite figured him out but he probably holds the key to destroying or fixing the problem with the incident...the Others sense this and kidnap him.

I'm exhausted now so someone please pick this up and run with it....

Nice theories.. i do believe that they have implanted memories. It makes sense that the reason the 'others' kidnapped walt was due to him being the key to fixing whatever they need to fix. i am not sure if the whispers are their own voices. I think they might be hearing the voices of the people that transplanted the memories.

But then again, like most of us, i have no idea but speculating is a blast! :undecide:

Excellent first post Westerberg. Who do you think is Dr. Smith? Love the idea about the island becoming aware or such after the incident.
Aphasia_1- Whispers as the voices of the ones tranplanting the memories - cool theory. Just like that Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind movie!!

i am not sure if the whispers are their own voices. I think they might be hearing the voices of the people that transplanted the memories.

Very, very cool idea! I recall reading somewhere that some of Sayid's whispers were in Arabic. Shannon's whispers didn't sound familiar to me, although some people believe they heard Boone. And Sawyer heard Frank say "it'll come back around". So this theory makes sense to me. They could have all been voices heard while under hypnosis or anesthesia or something wrose, like implants.

It would be such a mind-blowing revalation to discover that you weren't on an island, you had never been in a plan crash -- what if the lostaways were all somewhere else -- in a lab or just a room hooked up to equipment and computers --- ohh and what if the organization running it has lost it's funding, and people like Walt are dying because no one is maintaing the set-up.

...mind blowing ideas people and great post Westerberg....if they've been chosen for the mission then they must each have a unique talent specifically geared towards some aspect of it....why pick "random" people for a critical mission...

...liked the idea about the traitor, the role of the tailsters, the reason for the implanted memories, and the voices....it will be good entertainment though to see what happens if/ when Ana hears the words expendable and your team together....also, maybe this is "their" second shot at the problem...Danielle and her groups "chance arrival" being the first...she's heard the whispers also as well as knowledge of the Others and clues like the numbers...makes her story even more melancholy and sympathetic...her group failed, they won't/can't get her because the mission's not accomplished, it's too dangerous, or she's just plain expendable...sad, left for 16yrs in a twilight world of implanted memories....or maybe she's the traitor lol...

It would be such a mind-blowing revalation to discover that you weren't on an island, you had never been in a plan crash -- what if the lostaways were all somewhere else -- in a lab or just a room hooked up to equipment and computers...
Oh NO! I just realized something... if our losties are hooked up somewhere and the experience is not at all real, than Sawyer might not look like Sawyer.:bawling:

It would be such a mind-blowing revalation to discover that you weren't on an island, you had never been in a plan crash -- what if the lostaways were all somewhere else -- in a lab or just a room hooked up to equipment and computers --- ohh and what if the organization running it has lost it's funding, and people like Walt are dying because no one is maintaing the set-up.
I doubt that writers like Abrams would stoop to mimicing The Matrix. I am 100% confident in saying that whatever they've come up with will be something that's never been done before.

More postulations:

The island has morphed into it's own mind-bending wacked-out world and is now conduting the experiments on it's own...the computer systems and experiments have created the "islandworld" and the effects of this have implications on the rest of the world ... not big on the "jacked-in-Matrix" scenario but do believe the Losties are somehow "programmed" to perform a mission that they do not yet understand...

The construct of the Dharma Initiative and the "incident/magnetic field shift" leaves open the possiblilies that ALL of the experiments have somehow gone haywire and therefore the issues of Life Extension, Cyrogenics, Aliens, Remote Viewing, etc are ALL in play...no end to plot twists, cross-over crazy phenomenon and effect on those who were both on the "island", monitoring the experiments and funding the experiments...

"LOST" most likely doesn't mean lost on the island but the goals and ideals of the Dharma Initiative are "lost" and thus the future of mankind may be "lost"... and the writers have done a great job in also making "LOST" mean, on a personal level, "lost-in-life" as the characters are all searching for higher meaning...

Bottom line and hopeful big reveal this year will be there was no plane crash...probably can't reveal the planted memories until next year...then who the "real" characters are their roles in the mission after that...

And Charlie is the Dr Smith here...Ethan (who is actually not an Other but part of the advance team) killed him because he knew....and Charlie had to then kill him before Ethan outed him...

Very, very cool idea! I recall reading somewhere that some of Sayid's whispers were in Arabic. Shannon's whispers didn't sound familiar to me, although some people believe they heard Boone. And Sawyer heard Frank say "it'll come back around". So this theory makes sense to me. They could have all been voices heard while under hypnosis or anesthesia or something wrose, like implants.

Perhaps the whispers they hear are from their own selves, or from untampered memories in their minds. This would explain Sayid hearing the voices in Arabic. Then it could be possible the man we know as Sawyer is really a wounded, but not dead, Frank. Yes, that is confusing.

Personally, I hope what we see on the Island is not some virtual world, ala The Matrix. If the Island happenings we see are merely in a mind, one tends to become much less invested in caring about what happens, regardless of the potential real world implications. If events on the Island are, on the other hand, phoney but still of real matter, like in Westworld or The Truman Show, then there is still the potential to stay strongly interested in what will happen to its inhabitants. IMHO.

The island has morphed into it's own mind-bending wacked-out world and is now conduting the experiments on it's own...the computer systems and experiments have created the "islandworld" and the effects of this have implications on the rest of the world ... not big on the "jacked-in-Matrix" scenario but do believe the Losties are somehow "programmed" to perform a mission that they do not yet understand...
I also like the idea "the island" (aka, Dharma's projects run amok) has essentially taken over control. I also lean towards the idea the "Flight 815 Survivors" have planted memories and, further, may have been programmed possibly their entire or a good portion of their lives (in other words, everything we see *prior* the island is/was all Virtual). Some of the older island inhabitants (Rose, Locke, Bernard, etc) may have had memory modifications and reprogramming. But... do I think they're trapped in some sort of Virtual World a la The Matrix now? I'm leaning towards no. Your above scenario could really work either way. I do favor the idea the island events being all Real. Don't quote me on this, but I think the show creators have pretty much said that what we're seeing on the island is real (while they were debunking the literal purgatory specs)... but they haven't been so concrete in regards to the memories / flashbacks.

This could explain why Claire has amnesia. The plane crash survivors could very well be more like machines than human beings, they just don't realize it. I'm not suggesting they're literally robots or whatnot, but that they may have been programmed as if they were. They've never really lived as human beings, at least, not before the island (they only believe they have). Claire essentially rebooted to being on the plane flying towards Sydney after the trauma of being captured by Ethan (like when Windows crashes and you pull out your trust back-up disk and reboot in an *earlier* safe version). However, her reboot may have also NOT been of her own accord. She may have been rebooted by an outside source (her memory was purposefully modified / erased). Either by Desmond or maybe Danielle, either or both possibly working for Hanso/Dharma. They didn't want her remembering where she'd been, what/who she might have seen or what Ethan may have told her in a crazy tirade.

And Charlie is the Dr Smith here...Ethan (who is actually not an Other but part of the advance team) killed him because he knew....and Charlie had to then kill him before Ethan outed him...
It's possible, per this theory, Claire may have seen who the traitor / mole is... hence, the need to erase / modify her memory. This memory may eventually come back to her at some point... and if your spec is right and it's indeed Charlie? Claire better have someone watching out for her who isn't Charlie. Charlie himself may not even realize what he is or what he's (unknowningy) doing? Perhaps something like The Manchurian Candidate... he's a reluctant traitor / mole?

Getting a little more insane, in regards to the "memories are all planted" or "pasts were all simulated" spec/s, I'd even suggest Ethan may be Aaron's biological father. Something Ethan knew of course, but not Claire, thus his interest in her and her unborn baby. It's his baby too (and it's been specced time and again and all but implied in the storyline he knew something about it Claire did not). Not suggesting Ethan and Claire ever had a relationship once (or they might have, I suppose we can't be sure). However, I've also wondered if Boone might be Aaron's real father. With all the messianic symbolism to Boone in particular (and Boone dying when Aaron was born)? Perhaps Aaron is something of a figurative Da Vinci Code? Not that he or any of the protagonists are literally Jesus or sang real as Dan Brown put it... but that there may be something about Aaron, and Walt, that is different from all the other "Flight 815 Survivors" (aka, the subjects of the planted/programmed memories). Walt and Aaron are prototypes, perhaps, of the perfected collective of the Dharma Initiative? The adults around them are close, but not quite as unflawed as Walt or Aaron?

"LOST" most likely doesn't mean lost on the island but the goals and ideals of the Dharma Initiative are "lost" and thus the future of mankind may be "lost"... and the writers have done a great job in also making "LOST" mean, on a personal level, "lost-in-life" as the characters are all searching for higher meaning...
My brother and a few friends of mine suggested the title, "Lost", may not solely be referring to "lost-in-life" (although, I agree with you, that is a major theme in the show one way or another).... but that Hanso/Dharma/some as yet unseen great player.... has essentially "lost" some kind of war. Hanso/Dharma were destroyed by their own creation... but the artificial creation then became the Creator and recreated it's former masters? Eventually giving birth to the "Flight 815 Survivors", amongst others? It's the "Flight 815 Survivors" task to either find Harmony with it's "Creator" (man/machine find a way to peaceably co-exist) or destroy it? I suppose with the ties to Buddhism in the story, I'm more inclined (right now anyway) in considering the protagonists need to find harmony between man and machine (Creation and Creator.... man and God). Find the balance between science and faith.

Great post Sess...that's where I'm at on this too. And it was brilliant from a creative perspecitve for the writers to create 6! Experiments based on differing theories...my guess is they started with one but when the show became such a huge hit and it's lifespan now at least 4 or 5 years (if not more) it gives them more ways to muck up the machine, create diversions, cross theories (i.e. steal from the Fuselage) and introduce new characters....

Sesostris, your post is great food for thought and you raise some really interesting questions.

Are you suggesting that all the 'survirors' are Dharma creations and all the memories are planted? Because I think that theory is plausible. It certainly explains Locke's miraculous cure.

Walt and Aaron (and presumably Alex) would then be next-generation creations, which may be why they are of interest to the Others (remaining scientists? First generation creations?) And as you note, it raises questions about the actual parentage of these offspring.

Also, I agree that the island is running amok and things are breaking down. Perhaps the project has been abandoned. That could explain the hallucinations, the whispers, the security system, the polar bears - things are out of whack because no one is doing their job anymore.

Sesostris, your post is great food for thought and you raise some really interesting questions.

Are you suggesting that all the 'survirors' are Dharma creations and all the memories are planted? Because I think that theory is plausible. It certainly explains Locke's miraculous cure.

Walt and Aaron (and presumably Alex) would then be next-generation creations, which may be why they are of interest to the Others (remaining scientists? First generation creations?) And as you note, it raises questions about the actual parentage of these offspring.

Also, I agree that the island is running amok and things are breaking down. Perhaps the project has been abandoned. That could explain the hallucinations, the whispers, the security system, the polar bears - things are out of whack because no one is doing their job anymore.that's way too depressing and enclosing a theory for the series to develop in. all creations? that would not explain the.... wait! actually, that seems to make the most sense; firstly, in the case of the lostaways, they are all interconnected somehow in their past experiences, they all have unusual situations consering the crash and how they got on the plane, they all have deeply engrained issues that forced them to be on that plane, considering that as a fact (which actually may or may not be one) the lostaways seem to be from the same "batch".. too much to be coincidence...

Welcome to the Fuselage from across the pond, lumpia!!

Just FYI - I didn't mean 'creations' to imply non-human, more like specially bred on the island. There are a few other threads here that discuss the BF Skinner Utopian Society mentioned in the Dharma film and it raises questions about whether one of the 'experiments' was breeding and raising children to form this perfect society.

"The Hatch" could be a real play on words.

"The Hatch" could be a real play on words.
Adding onto that particular wordplay.... was I the only one that thought Locke's cable (which he used to lower Kate into The Hatch) looked an awful lot like a perverse umbilical cord (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=722&pos=1)? Look where's it's even tied to Kate (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=722&pos=29). As if the child is being put back into the womb / the egg.

Are you suggesting that all the 'survirors' are Dharma creations and all the memories are planted?
Yup. More or less. I've also considered, as I said above, maybe not all of them are "creations", but perhaps willingly took part in the procedure but don't remember it since their memories have been modified / reprogrammed (Rose, Bernard, Locke... the older island inhabitants). However, even in their cases, I could find loopholes. If the story is taking place in the not-too-distant future (my guess, around 2012) and the project started in in the 60s (if Desmond's record collection is any clue), early 70s or even decades earlier .... Locke, Rose, Bernard, Danielle (probably certain persons in her crew too) would be early test subjects but still make it within the timeline the project - again, in theory - started. However, I do suspect whatever is going on the island outdates even this supposed "Dharma Initiative", possibly by very many years. Various scientific methods - some possibly considered inhumane or unethical - predating Dharma/Hanso but adopted by them, but also we're dealing with an "island" that may have had strange occurrences for, maybe, centuries (the slave ship so far inland?).

Walt and Aaron (and presumably Alex) would then be next-generation creations, which may be why they are of interest to the Others (remaining scientists? First generation creations?)
Some of them perhaps are remaining scientists. I also think The Others (or some of them anyway) are also possibly the parents / relatives of the "Flight 815 Survivors".

And as you note, it raises questions about the actual parentage of these offspring.
Hell. It puts all their parentages into question if the flashbacks are all fabricated. There was no Christian or Margo Shephard. There was no Emily Locke or Anthony Cooper. At least, not in the way the "Flight 815 Survivors" remember them.

This might seem anvilicious (Desmond certainly enjoyed using the word), but haven't nixed the possiblity yet .... I actually think Desmond and Jack are, literally, brothers. Faith and Science... except a more complimentary duo than the antagonistic relationship between Jack and Locke. I think Locke may also possibly be related to Jack as well.

I also think "Susan" (or Walt's biological mother, whoever she may be) and Shannon, maybe Ethan and Sawyer as well, all share the same biological father (although I'm more inclined to think Shannon/"Susan" and Ethan/Sawyer have two different fathers). Of which, I admit, I'm basing this on little to nothing concrete outside of conjecture. However, if there's been some kind of advanced genetic or eugenic research (http://www.thehansofoundation.org/jedi.html) going on on the island involving parapsychology (psionic abilities / telepathy / remote viewing / etc)... people who are genetically connected may possibly have a higher receptivity towards each other. Walt is able to communicate with Shannon because they're both "special" (and Walt gets his "specialness" from his mother's side, not his father's. Michael - if he's Walt's real dad - may have his own role to play, but I suspect he's, more or less, a normal person) AND they're biologically connected. Shannon is his (half-)aunt. Sawyer's voice (actually, I think he's using telepathy, but he obviously doesn't realize that) can calm Aaron - if Ethan is his biological father - so effectively because they too have a "connection" (both via "specialness" and genetics). However, Walt and Aaron are considerably more "special" than either Shannon or Sawyer. Given time to develop, Sawyer and Shannon could also become more "special" as time goes on. All the Lostaways might.

I like it, Sesostris.

One other thing to consider - Locke has also been called "Special" (by Emily) and seems to have the deepest connections to the island, he 'hears' it. He is also the one who tells Walt a 'secret' and teaches him about 'seeing things in his mind's eye'. So his role as 'teacher' or 'guide' could indeed be due to his older age and longer time on the island. And he's the most invested in staying there (i.e. knocking out Sayid to stop the transmission).

The shared parentage theory is also interesting because genetic traits for "specialness" would increase within the same gene pool.

Furthermore, many of the Lostaways appear to be disconnected from their supposed nuclear families (according to backstories). There's a whole thread about Adoption and Foster Care themes among the Lostaways, which would fit nicely. They have limited or distorted memories of actual family life because they aren't real.

One other thing to consider - Locke has also been called "Special" (by Emily) and seems to have the deepest connections to the island, he 'hears' it. He is also the one who tells Walt a 'secret' and teaches him about 'seeing things in his mind's eye'. So his role as 'teacher' or 'guide' could indeed be due to his older age and longer time on the island.
I agree. This also could explain Rose believing - seemingly without a doubt - her husband was still alive. They're not genetically related (yuck!), but they've been together so long, even in stasis (as I'd presume they would have had to be... a la The Matrix, but of course without the ugly plugs, baldness, atrophy, etc Dharma/Hanso found some way to compensate for all that)... they've developed a very deep connection. A connection that extends beyond time and space? The closest science will come to soulmates.

And he's the most invested in staying there (i.e. knocking out Sayid to stop the transmission).
Locke, who was so desperate for a father figure he kept fruitlessly driving in front of his father's house... knowing he wasn't wanted, but still going there anyway. I think Locke - on some level - is so connected to the island because he sees it's (some part of him knows, like Rose knew her husband was alive) the island is *both* his mother and father. The parents he so desperately wanted in his flashbacks IS "the island". As it is for all the Lostaways (hence Locke's adamance on them *all* staying. In a way, all the "Flight 815 Survivors" are his brothers and sisters even if he isn't literally genetically connected to all of them).... yet that doesn't necessarily mean that's where the Lostaways are destined to stay. "The island" - like any set of parents - may not want or intend them to stay forever. It expects them to, eventually, abandon the roost.... but not until they're ready to take care of themselves? Ready to face whatever world (or what's left of it?) is out there?

Furthermore, many of the Lostaways appear to be disconnected from their supposed nuclear families (according to backstories).
Although I don't think the flashbacks are real, I do think (like you as it seems) there are still clues hidden amongst them. Some truth hidden in the lies. Little things, that if you tie them all together, it paints a broader picture of the storyline as a whole.

I agree that if the theory is correct, the backstories aren't real. What I meant was that they may not have 'memories' of real nuclear families because they never really existed. So they "remember" foster homes or fleeting adoptive parents, not a united and connected family that didn't really exist.

And I like the idea about Rose, Bernard and Locke being most connected because they've all been around longer. And you're very right about Locke and the island - he even told Sun he was 'found', a strange thing to say under normal circumstances. He and Rose seem to be rather, well, okay about being on the island. No panic, no fear like the others express at first. And remember, Rose says the 'security system' sounds familiar - this suggests she's heard it before.

One other thing I thought about - false memories could also explain why some people show up in the memories of more than one person...Christian = Jack and Sawyer, Sawyer's girlfriend = Hurley's lottery girl, Randy = Hurley's and Locke's boss.

I think the Losties have a mission and the memories are planted as a means of guiding them to thier goal... something within the island (or the island itself) can read minds and if they went in with conscience knowledge of thier quest they'd be destroyed...can't be a cooincidence that some memory characters are being portrayed by the same actors....or that people like Jack's father show up on the island and in both he and Sawyers memories...they would be the people who planted the memories and are somehow also helping guide the Losties via remote control of some kind...

Good point, cullmnt, why would she act that way when she's all alone? If she was acting, we should have seen her messing herself up a little to be convincing when she found someone else. I agree, in that at least, she was being sincere.


I believe that there are a few people who's memories were not messed with. Check out the dvd's. The eyes are a very important clue - big part of the show. But we NEVER have seen Katie's eyes open like all of the rest of them in an opening shot. She has had a few of her own flashback shows now and none of them show her eyes opening like everyone elses'. It just goes right into the story line - I think that there is something to this.......any thoughts?

Good point about Kate's eyes (or lack of), General. There is a lot that is not explained about Kate's experience with the crash and this might be another clue about her being a part of the experiment. I myself have found it meaningful that she ALWAYS has to be part of anything that related to the Lostaways trying to communicate with the world - "I'm going with you" is her typical refrain. Kind of like she has to monitor what's being done. Oh yeah, and then she dropped the transceiver from the tree!

She wasn't acting afraid, she was afraid her acting (for Jack & Charlie) hadn't been good (convincing) enough.



First of all, how do you know she was saving it for Bernard? Second, if she was saving for Bernard, how does that imply that she & Bernard aren't in on it, as I think?

Robert


Because Rose had mentioned Bernard having a sweet tooth. The last scene with Rose was supposed to show that she knows(meaning has faith) Bernard is still alive which is why she saved the candy bar.

As for Kate..you mean to tell me that when she was alone in tree hiding from the monster (crying and counting to 5) that she was "afraid of her act" for Charlie and jack...c'mon now...

It could very be that some of the losties are in on it but I just haven't seen anything convincing with these two...

I haven't decided about Kate, whether she's in on it or not. There's some convincing evidence for both points of view. But I think we should also keep in mind that she has a real motive NOT to be rescued - she would most likely be arrested immediately - and that influences some of the choices she makes.

I believe that there are a few people who's memories were not messed with. Check out the dvd's. The eyes are a very important clue - big part of the show. But we NEVER have seen Katie's eyes open like all of the rest of them in an opening shot. She has had a few of her own flashback shows now and none of them show her eyes opening like everyone elses'. It just goes right into the story line - I think that there is something to this.......any thoughts?


now that my friend is very interesting..also could be why she wanted to find her message on the bottle when it washed back to shore..hmmm

I think what would be really profound and definitely shocking, would be if the ones who seems the most freaked out and the least comfortable with what is happening were actually the ones who were in on it. It would be incredibly shocking if Michael who just wanted to escape was really in the "know" and was just acting all stressed out to up the impact of the experiment.

Because Rose had mentioned Bernard having a sweet tooth. The last scene with Rose was supposed to show that she knows(meaning has faith) Bernard is still alive which is why she saved the candy bar.

How is that sufficient to infer either of these things: "First of all, how do you know she was saving it for Bernard? Second, if she was saving for Bernard, how does that imply that she & Bernard aren't in on it, as I think?"

As for Kate..you mean to tell me that when she was alone in tree hiding from the monster (crying and counting to 5) that she was "afraid of her act" for Charlie and jack...c'mon now...

Yes, that's exactly what I mean to tell you.

It could very be that some of the losties are in on it but I just haven't seen anything convincing with these two.

If nothing else convinced you about Kate, watch the DVD's close-up of Kate's hands while she was up a tree, deliberately dropping a transceiver.

As to Rose, for her to have been telling the truth about Bernard and not concealing the illusion of a "plane crash", either:

the plane crash would've had to be real, which is physically impossible; or

the world would've had to know Oceanic 815 was "lost", and that would invite far too much scrutiny.

By process of elimination, Rose and all the Tailies must be shills.

Robert

Adding onto that particular wordplay.... was I the only one that thought Locke's cable (which he used to lower Kate into The Hatch) looked an awful lot like a perverse umbilical cord (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=722&pos=1)? Look where's it's even tied to Kate (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=722&pos=29). As if the child is being put back into the womb / the egg.

Wow, great catch!