Why does he think he's saving the world? Where did he get that idea? I mean, I know he got it from Calvin, or whatever the other guy's name was, but there wasn't any evidence of that in the Orientation video. As far as I can tell, the video explained it as that there was an 'incident' that happened once that they were trying to prevent again. But it says nothing of apocalyptic catastrophes, like Desmond seems to fear. Plus, if it already happened once, how bad could it have been?

Not only that, but the film was made in 1980, and they said they'd be stationed there for 540 days. So, OK, that's about a year and a half. But 25 years have passed, and there's still food there??

Desmond is lying. He has to be.

He's a pretty good liar too ...he really stuck by his story...

but you know what? if you're stuck like he was under there for 20 some odd years....you'd start believing anything you'd want to believe...for the sake of finding purpose to his life.

And where did he get the new washer and dryer? And detergent? His explanation is sorely lacking.

That's true! Jack asked him about how the heck does he get his food too!

But, didn't Desmond say he'd been down there for 3 years? It was Kelvin who was already down there, and was waiting for his replacement.

And where did he get the new washer and dryer? And detergent? His explanation is sorely lacking.

Ha! That's what I was thinking. That's one of the newer Bosch W/D sets, isn't it? :smile:

He's a pretty good liar too ...he really stuck by his story...

but you know what? if you're stuck like he was under there for 20 some odd years....you'd start believing anything you'd want to believe...for the sake of finding purpose to his life.

I thought he said he was in the hatch for 3 years.?

That's true! Jack asked him about how the heck does he get his food too!

At that point, I don't think Jack knew about the food store.

I thought he said he was in the hatch for 3 years.?

Yes. Desmond has only been there for 3 years.

The video said that their "replacements" would arrive every 540 whatever days. Desmond has only been down there 3 years.

Yes, Desmond had only been there for three years (if he is to be believed, but I think that one's safe, since Jack didn't say "Well now that can't be true, you said you were training for that race when I met you, and that was X number of years ago" or anything of that nature).

But regardless, this home could not possibly have been stocked for 25+ years. Especially since the shelves seem so FULL! There aren't bare shelves anywhere. He doesn't seem to be running low on anything. How did he get re-supplied?

EDIT: and since Desmond obviously wasn't the real replacement for Kelvin/Calvin, we can assume that Calvin had been down there for longer than 540+ days as well. So, that adds up to somewhere around 5 years without official contact. And yet the pantry is still that full, and he has new appliances?

But, didn't Desmond say he'd been down there for 3 years? It was Kelvin who was already down there, and was waiting for his replacement.

He said 3 years ago his boat wrecked off the island and he swam to shore and Kelvin grabbed him and took him to the hatch. Danielle also has a boat wreck off shore drawn on her map.

what was Kelvin doing outside of the hatch? who was manning the terminal?

Another fine point. How was Kelvin so sure he could get out and back in 108 minutes?

Something about it seems staged.

Another fine point. How was Kelvin so sure he could get out and back in 108 minutes?

Something about it seems staged.

Unless he was a plant fron the dahrma group, and the expariment was to see what someone would do if they were told that they had to push this button every hour and 48 minutes. You coudl never sleep you would always worry, the stress would be incredable. thenontop of that they tell you you can't leave becasue there is a disease out side. And the whole thing is reset as soon as you fail to compleat the code. when it reaches zero they send a recue and reset again. Ok that theory has a lot of wholes, like how did they get the boat to crash... but lets face it a lot of people seem to crash on this island. So even if you pretend that there is enough traffic (crashes) to restart the expariment it still dosen't explain the original guys death. Or maybe it dosen't have to.

540 is 5 times 108 for whatever the heck that means????????

Unless he was a plant fron the dahrma group, and the expariment was to see what someone would do if they were told that they had to push this button every hour and 48 minutes. You coudl never sleep you would always worry, the stress would be incredable. thenontop of that they tell you you can't leave becasue there is a disease out side. And the whole thing is reset as soon as you fail to compleat the code. when it reaches zero they send a recue and reset again. Ok that theory has a lot of wholes, like how did they get the boat to crash... but lets face it a lot of people seem to crash on this island. So even if you pretend that there is enough traffic (crashes) to restart the expariment it still dosen't explain the original guys death. Or maybe it dosen't have to.

This makes sense. Calvin would not even have known Desmond crashed if he's stuck in the Hatch pressing buttons (unless there is a coastal alarm system?) so it makes sense his intentions were to con Desmond into a "mind game experiment" Then he conveniently disappears (dies?) in order for the experiment to go on unimpeded.

And where did he get the new washer and dryer? And detergent? His explanation is sorely lacking.

Now THAT, I would love to know. Was this just a set dressing faux pas or what?

In order to obtain a perfect experiment, you need a random sample. What is more random than people crashing on an island? Especially a plane full of people. One problem, it is highly unethical and therefore this thing is top secret - The people who originally ran the experiments may not even run them anymore and they just left whoever was in the hatches in fear they would spread information about what went on and just left them there to die. Maybe the "incident" was someone escaping from the hatch and not going back and pressing the button like they were told, or maybe some people crashed on the island and "infected" their study. In a perfect study you also need to keep a third variable OUT of the experiment - that would include random people crashing on the island.

I'm still thinking about all of this and I have to rewatch the episode, specifically the film portion. I could of swore they said something about a utopian society.

This reminds me though of Milgram's Experiment, but the opposite. In Milgram's they asked participants to send shocks of voltage to someone everytime they got an answer wrong (they told the participants they were testing memory but what they were actually testing was obedience to authority). Would the participant continue to send shock voltages to an unseen man (who is screaming in the next room for you to stop) if there was an authority figure sitting behind them telling them to continue with the shocks because it is part of the research?

This makes me think that it's possible that one area they were trying to test was if someone would sit at a computer and press a button every 108 (or any number) minutes if they were told it would "save the world". How would you know for sure? You have to take authority's word for it. But how do you know authority is right? They're in authority and psychologically that makes you think it could be true. I really don't know what to think, if something bad would happen or not. But it is plausible that the whole intention of this button pressing is to simply see how long someone will obey authority.

Danielle also has a boat wreck off shore drawn on her map.
Wow, great catch. I had forgotten all about that.

if Desmond swam to shore how did his photo survive.......
maybe that's what we were supposed to get out of that shot- in that moment jack determined Des was lying.

if Desmond swam to shore how did his photo survive.......
maybe that's what we were supposed to get out of that shot- in that moment jack determined Des was lying.

Well Sayid went through a plane crash and his photo of Nadia was in perfect shape. Then it survived Danielle's hut explosion, so anything is possible.

Oooh, a lot of good observations in this thread! :biggrin:

I'm a Desmond fan (my avi gives that away LOL) but I must admit that I also had doubts about his story. I'm not sure if I doubted it because I really think he was lying or because I don't believe all of it even if he does.

Good points brought up here were: 1] How did the new washer and dryer get there if he's been alone for 3 years and they are newer than that? 2] How did he manage to still have all that food? Even though it's a lot of food and he's only one person, could it have lasted 3 years? But, there might have been another pantry. This we don't know yet. 3] How did the guy find him if he's not supposed to leave the bunker? 4] What or who was it that convinced Desmond that the numbers and pressing the button did anything more than reset the counter?

Somethings I thought of were, who was this man that found Desmond. Sure the name is new, but that doesn't mean that it still wasn't someone that we have already seen ... like Ethan, giving another name to Desmond. Also, if that photo was so special (and I'm sure it must have been ... being his only connection to the life he had before he crashed on the island ... why didn't he take it with him? And why did he take the vials with him? What do those things do to/for him? Does he need them to stay alive?

As for the crashed boat on Danielle's map. It doesn't look like a ship wreck to me. It looks like a boat docked at the island. How do we know it's supposed to be a ship wreck?

Just some thoughts of mine... great thread. I'll be back after I get some sleep! ;)

Would'nt it be weird if this turned out like the truman show :p. Desmond has been tricked and now he has tricked Jack and his people. None of it makes sense to be honest unless its one big hoex.

Also, why does Desmond ask if the world is still out there? I mean, if he honestly believes his button punching is saving the world, and he's been faithfully hitting them, why wouldn't the world be out there? Has Desmond ever failed to punch the numbers in? Is that what brought the plane down?

Why does he think people get sick and die on the surface? The film makes no indication of any surface infection. Something Kelvin told him?

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=20410 (my thread on this being a psychological experiment)

But I wonder if Ethan was Calvin's bunker buddy. Ethan doens't seem to fit with any specific group. I wonder if he left the hatch and that is why Calvin was so desprate to get Desmond down there. The video did say they worked in teams of 2.

I think that his name is Calvin. Calvin was a philosopher that is how Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes got his name. I am wondering if it is a reference to the same person.

I got the feeling Desmond's little "speech" was staged too. I'm really beginning to think more and more that the plane crash was intentional/staged.

Desmond said, "I don't get out much." to Jack, in response to (I think) Jack asking how it was that Desmond hadn't noticed the plane crash.

I wonder if Desmond was simply giving a smart aleck response, or if he actually doesn't get out much. Which would imply that he does get out sometimes.

Notice that he appeared to know which way to go when he bolted from the hatch. He wasn't wildly looking around or anything. He seemed to be running with purpose and direction.

If he does get out sometimes ... maybe the "security system" is simply a mechanism to compel someone back into the hatch if the counter is about to run down and the hatch is empty.

Desmond said, "I don't get out much." to Jack, in response to (I think) Jack asking how it was that Desmond hadn't noticed the plane crash.

I wonder if Desmond was simply giving a smart aleck response, or if he actually doesn't get out much. Which would imply that he does get out sometimes.

Notice that he appeared to know which way to go when he bolted from the hatch. He wasn't wildly looking around or anything. He seemed to be running with purpose and direction.

If he does get out sometimes ... maybe the "security system" is simply a mechanism to compel someone back into the hatch if the counter is about to run down and the hatch is empty.

I thought about that also... he also knew that the wheel to open the door stuck sometimes... which means he must have used it from time to time. So he's clearly been outside... maybe when Kelvin was there and was on shift?

Desmond said, "I don't get out much." to Jack, in response to (I think) Jack asking how it was that Desmond hadn't noticed the plane crash.

I wonder if Desmond was simply giving a smart aleck response, or if he actually doesn't get out much. Which would imply that he does get out sometimes.

Notice that he appeared to know which way to go when he bolted from the hatch. He wasn't wildly looking around or anything. He seemed to be running with purpose and direction.

If he does get out sometimes ... maybe the "security system" is simply a mechanism to compel someone back into the hatch if the counter is about to run down and the hatch is empty.
Nice theory on the "security system." But that doesn't explain why it uproots trees or killed the pilot. But still, as I think there is more than one, it could be possible.

I do think that Desmond's response was a sarcastic one and the exit door did seem hard to open, leading me to believe it hadn't been opened in a long time and I'm not sure if Desmond was running with any other purpose than getting as far aways from the hatch as he could (after all, we didn't have a scene of him emerging from the exit so we didn't see him, possibly, looking around franticly before he took off running). But there is something 'not right' with Desmond's story, that I have to admit.

But I don't think it was planned (at least not by Desmond) to get anyone down there to take over. Seeing him go commando when the hatch was blow, with no one to see him so that he'd have to pretend his reactions, makes me believe that this part was chance.

the vials are supposed to be a vaccine for whatever sickness lies ion the island. if you look at the vials look at the numbers....and look at what they say.....

I agree that Desmond was running with purpose in a specific direction. Was to go to another sphere?

540 is 5 times 108 for whatever the heck that means????????

Well, 540 days is 777600 minutes, divide that by 108 and you get 7200. Then divide that by 108 and you get....66.6!!!! The number of the devil! :biggrin: hehe

I have a timing question.

Doesn't Sarah say at the wedding that she was fixed four years ago?

Desmond says he's been on the island three years. How long does an around the world solar sail race take? More than a year? Because, unless the race takes an awful long time, I'm really confused by the timing issues here.

I have a timing question.

Doesn't Sarah say at the wedding that she was fixed four years ago?

Desmond says he's been on the island three years. How long does an around the world solar sail race take? More than a year? Because, unless the race takes an awful long time, I'm really confused by the timing issues here.

You're assuming Desmond left for the race immediately after running into Jack. Maybe he trained for another 6-9 months and then left on the race...

Now, what I'm thinking is just what is it that's going to "end the world" anyway? Is it a nuclear bomb blast, that would poison the surface -- earth-wide? Or is it literally blowing up the whole earth -- perhaps from the core out?

If it's #1, then Desmond would have been safer if he stayed in the bunker. If it's #2, why run? ... there'd be no place to hide.

No, I think that counter works but it's not a doomsday machine. It has some other purpose.

I think Desmond is a pawn in this just as the lostaways are now pawns...Desmond probably didn't tell them the whole truth b/c Jack was going psycho waving the gun in his face, he probably told him the bare minimum.

So, how could Desmond just leave after 3 years of button pushing? If not pushing the button would destroy the world then running to the other side of the island would not make much sense now would it? So I don't think that not pushing the button blows up the world but maybe just his world, the hatch?

Also if the film says that there are 5 other pods or hatches out there wouldn't you less inclined to keep pushing the button, wouldn't you wonder if the other 5 hatch people had just stopped pushing theirs and you were the dumb a. left in the hatch pushing the button?

You're assuming Desmond left for the race immediately after running into Jack. Maybe he trained for another 6-9 months and then left on the race...

Thank you. That's exactly the logic I was missing. You're right. He says he's "training," not that he's going the next day. I'm better now.

He probably ran out to meet up with Danielle. Hey...no stone left unturned and all that.

Remember her transmission and her explanations don't make a lot of sense either...

I think Desmond is a pawn in this just as the lostaways are now pawns...Desmond probably didn't tell them the whole truth b/c Jack was going psycho waving the gun in his face, he probably told him the bare minimum.

So, how could Desmond just leave after 3 years of button pushing? If not pushing the button would destroy the world then running to the other side of the island would not make much sense now would it? So I don't think that not pushing the button blows up the world but maybe just his world, the hatch?

Also if the film says that there are 5 other pods or hatches out there wouldn't you less inclined to keep pushing the button, wouldn't you wonder if the other 5 hatch people had just stopped pushing theirs and you were the dumb a. left in the hatch pushing the button?

I think it's fairly clear that Desmond is a pawn. If you can set up a computer to reset a counter every 108 minutes, why couldn't you automate that process? You could. The only reason to make it manual is to keep a person tethered to the machine through fear.

But even if Desmond is a pawn, he has fresh supplies. Either that's a continuity error, or Desmond was getting fresh supplies from somewhere else... which he failed to mention to Jack.

Was there any mention whole long ago this Calvin died? I don't think that was brought up in the episode at all. Would be interesting to know how long Desmond was in the hatch entering the code alone.

Or how Calvin died would have been a good question to ask considering there is the "sickness, the others and the security system.

Now, what I'm thinking is just what is it that's going to "end the world" anyway? Is it a nuclear bomb blast, that would poison the surface -- earth-wide? Or is it literally blowing up the whole earth -- perhaps from the core out?

If it's #1, then Desmond would have been safer if he stayed in the bunker. If it's #2, why run? ... there'd be no place to hide.

No, I think that counter works but it's not a doomsday machine. It has some other purpose.

Did he say it would be the end of the world? I don't recall. I know he said, "We're all going to die." That is subtley different.

Suppose the past incident referenced in the film happened inside the hatch, or in it's immedaite vicinity? Running, therefore would be a logical response, no?

This makes sense. Calvin would not even have known Desmond crashed if he's stuck in the Hatch pressing buttons (unless there is a coastal alarm system?) so it makes sense his intentions were to con Desmond into a "mind game experiment" Then he conveniently disappears (dies?) in order for the experiment to go on unimpeded.

Maybe that is Desmond's role. To accomplish this same task on the losaways.

Did he say it would be the end of the world? I don't recall. I know he said, "We're all going to die." That is subtley different.

Suppose the past incident referenced in the film happened inside the hatch, or in it's immedaite vicinity? Running, therefore would be a logical response, no?

He said that he was "saving the world" with that computer.

After 3 years getting no more the 104 minutes sleep, chances are you might convince yourself of a few things like the fact your saving the world.

After 3 years getting no more the 104 minutes sleep, chances are you might convince yourself of a few things like the fact your saving the world.

But he said those were Kelvin's words, not his. So Kelvin told him he was saving the world, but he doesn't expand on it at all.

It just seems to me that what we (and Desmond) are meant to believe is that at some point in time there was an 'incident', so they set up this computer to prevent that incident from happening again. Why it requires an iterative code-entering sequence, I don't know. But what we do know is that this incident allegedly has already happened once... and the world didn't end. So why would Kelvin or Desmond think that its happening again would cause the world to end, or cause them all to die? What is Desmond not telling Jack and the others?

Answer to the Washer and Dryer question - Those came out in 2000. If Desmond arrived in 2001 (making it 3 years before the plane crash), they would have already been there. I think we are overthinking this part. Those washer and dryers were around 3 years ago before Sept. 22, 2004, so everything still works out just fine.

What is Desmond not telling Jack and the others?

^^^^ that he ( Desmond) is in on it and they are all lab rats.

Answer to the Washer and Dryer question - Those came out in 2000. If Desmond arrived in 2001 (making it 3 years before the plane crash), they would have already been there. I think we are overthinking this part. Those washer and dryers were around 3 years ago before Sept. 22, 2004, so everything still works out just fine.

No, if Kelvin died waiting for his replacement(s), they couldn't possibly have been delivered in 2001. And how would Danielle not have noticed a huge freighter from SEARS rolling up on the beach??

No, if Kelvin died waiting for his replacement(s), they couldn't possibly have been delivered in 2001. And how would Danielle not have noticed a huge freighter from SEARS rolling up on the beach??


She seems to have not noticed an international jetliner crashing on the beach.

I still believe the reef surrounding the island is man made and occupied. (Ethan came from the water) And, it connects to the hatch somewhere. In keeping with this theory, supplies could easily be restocked via submarine.

Somewhere in the hatch complex (I believe) there is a designated *re-supply* point and periodically the Others (who are running this little freak show) re-stock provisions for the hatch occupants.

The occupants are probably put to sleep (via the air duct system) during this re-stocking.

I think it's fairly clear that Desmond is a pawn. If you can set up a computer to reset a counter every 108 minutes, why couldn't you automate that process? You could. The only reason to make it manual is to keep a person tethered to the machine through fear.

But even if Desmond is a pawn, he has fresh supplies. Either that's a continuity error, or Desmond was getting fresh supplies from somewhere else... which he failed to mention to Jack.

I think the writer's make it very VERY clear that he has fresh supplies, and I think their motive for doing that is to keep everyone wondering WHERE the fresh supplies are coming from, and WHO is bringing them into the hatch. From the plasma television, to the state of the art blender, and more importantly, the FRESH FRUIT in the blender in the first episode... it's one of the unanswered (intentionally) questions we'll have to wait to get an answer to.

We finally learned that there's a second entrance to the hatch - that was huge!! But we also know Desmond isn't going out to pick fresh fruit and shop at the Island's local Best Buy... so... it remains to be answered, and I can't WAIT!

Two more things I picked up on.

1] The film that Locke and Jack are watching, near the very end the man says something like, "and be sure not to use the computer to [garbled]." I think he was saying "and be sure not to use the computer to contact anyone." This would explain why neither man no longer had contact with the outside world. If they had put the fear in them not to use the computer for anything but the 108 minute count down, they'd be stranded in the bunker.

2] Desmond says, as Kate heads for the exit, "the latch sticks." How does he know it sticks if he hasn't used it?

And since Locke has assumed the First Watch ... looks like he IS him after all ... Desmond's partner. :biggrin:

so why is everything else in the hatch so 1970's??????????

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/156478214X/104-8145868-5331935?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance

This is a link to the book Desmond was reading (at least was on his bed). It was published in 1999... so I don't think he's lying about how long ago he go there. The plane crashed in 2003. So either desmond had the book with him or someone had been in contact with the island as late as 1999.

so what I mean to say is that maybe Desmond isn't lying, maybe he is telling the truth. The whole BF Skinner behaviorism stuff explains why he hit the button (look it up), but why does he inject himself?

Hey Mighty FUlkron, what do you think about all the eastern religion symbols etc......words etc.....

No, if Kelvin died waiting for his replacement(s), they couldn't possibly have been delivered in 2001. And how would Danielle not have noticed a huge freighter from SEARS rolling up on the beach??

We have no clue when Kelvin died. Desmond says hes been down there for "3 years" - Kelvin died at some point *after* that, which still makes it well into 2001 so those wahers and dryers still exist.

The question about Danielle not noticing them is irrelevant since we have no information on her right now. I seriously doubt that Sears or a big moving truck brought them though.

Either way, Kelvin died between 2001 and 2004. The w/d set is made in 2000 so my point still stands.

Where does that second door empty? Kate just showed up. The book on the shelf was called "The Third Policeman." Does anyone know the history of that book??

I tried to look it up all I found were short essays, google it and maybe we can find what it looked like to help us. Do you recall who it was by?

Answer to the Washer and Dryer question - Those came out in 2000. If Desmond arrived in 2001 (making it 3 years before the plane crash), they would have already been there. I think we are overthinking this part. Those washer and dryers were around 3 years ago before Sept. 22, 2004, so everything still works out just fine.
Thank you, sier! We can now discard the "new washer and dryer" theory! :biggrin:

Hey Mighty FUlkron, what do you think about all the eastern religion symbols etc......words etc.....

I think the guy, whoever set up Dharma (bearded guy from filmstrip) is Middle Eastern or Indian, and that's why the prevalent theme of Dharma, and I also think they were thrying to create a Utopian society among other things which would explain much of the symbolism.

www.thehansofoundation.com (http://www.thehansofoundation.com)

check this out, then look up what juxtapostional eugenics would mean, its kind of scary. Can you say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

On Oct. 5, one of Dalkey's books -- a 1999 reprint of the comic novel "The Third Policeman" by Flann O'Brien, an Irish writer who died in 1966 -- "will be prominently featured at a key moment" in the third episode of this season of "Lost," says Craig Wright, who wrote the script with Javier Grillo-Marxuach.

yeah, check out my amazon link a few posts back baileysdad, should give a good explanation of what its about and when it was published, which was my whole point.

Book Description
Fiction. The last of O'Brien's novels to be published and now reissued by Dalkey Archive, THE THIRD POLICEMAN is Flann O'Brien's brilliant comic novel about the nature of time, death, and existence. Told by a narrator who has committed a botche d robbery and brutal murder, the novel follows him and his adventures in a two-dimensional police station where he is intruduced to "Atomic Theory" and its relation to bicycles, the existence of eternity (which turns out to be just down the road), and the view that the earth is not round but "sausage-shaped."

Here is some info on the Calvin I was talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin

Here is a bio of Kelvin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Thomson%2C_1st_Baron_Kelvin

He was part of a trans-atlantic cable among many other experiments.

Now I can't decide.

There are many other questions, such as why Desmond has a room full of guns, or what happened to Calvin's original partner, since we learn from the video that he should have had one. I guess we can assume the same fate?

Also, on the topic of The Third Policeman, I must say that it is one fine book, I read it about 2 months ago. There is a very interesting "surprise ending" to the book, which for those of you who don't plan on reading it (which I recommend you do, it's really short), can discover:

The main character finds out at the end of the book, that much like the movie Sixth Sense, he was killed in the opening scenes, and has been wandering around dead for the whole story. I must say that it is faaaar better than the sixth sense, and written years and years before, as I'm sure you all know.

yeah, check out my amazon link a few posts back baileysdad, should give a good explanation of what its about and when it was published, which was my whole point.
Thanks everyone...I thought they showed that book for a reason!! Off to the Library! As soon as Bailey wakes up that is:)

We have no clue when Kelvin died. Desmond says hes been down there for "3 years" - Kelvin died at some point *after* that, which still makes it well into 2001 so those wahers and dryers still exist.

The question about Danielle not noticing them is irrelevant since we have no information on her right now. I seriously doubt that Sears or a big moving truck brought them though.

Either way, Kelvin died between 2001 and 2004. The w/d set is made in 2000 so my point still stands.

No, your point doesn't stand. Desmond arrived in 2001, I'm not disputing that .And it doesn't matter when Kelvin died, only when he arrived. At that point, Kelvin is by himself (where was his partner?), and has obviously been there a while, already. The implication is that he had already been there for more than his 540 days by the time Desmond arrived. If someone had arrived in 2000 or 2001 to deliver his new washer/dryer, why wasn't he replaced?

Of course, you could make the argument that Kelvin was in on a conspiracy and he had just arrived prior to Desmond's arrival and fed Desmond a bunch of lies. But why go to great extents to make the place look like it was built in the 70's and then stock it with cutting edge appliances?

And my comment about the Sears freighter was a joke.

If Kelvin died what did Des do with the body? Did he go outside and bury it?

I have a feeling that ole Des has been out there a lot...he knew the door sticks...he knew what he needed and took off...if it was contaminated out there..as he was told..why did he leave so fast. If that machine melted down the Island or the world...where did he think he was going??

No, your point doesn't stand. Desmond arrived in 2001, I'm not disputing that .And it doesn't matter when Kelvin died, only when he arrived.

Kelvin died after Desmond arrived. If we are to assume Desmond never had anyone come and help him/drop off supplies, this would mean that our timeline starts in 2001, well *after* the washers we made. We dont know ANYTHING about Kelvin or his situation.

At that point, Kelvin is by himself (where was his partner?), and has obviously been there a while, already.

This is an assumption. We know nothing about Kelvin or that his situation was anything like Desmond's. They could have easily just dropped off new supplies 2 weeks before Desmond landed ashore. I'm using dates and what was said - nothing else. Speculation is nothing but filling in gaps with unfactual information.

The implication is that he had already been there for more than his 540 days by the time Desmond arrived. If someone had arrived in 2000 or 2001 to deliver his new washer/dryer, why wasn't he replaced?

Where was his *other* coworker? How do you know Kelvin didn't arrive *with* the supplies? How do you know Kelvin didn't wreck on the island two weeks before Desmond? It is never established that Kelvin was waiting for Desmond to be his replacement. This is nothing but assumptions. Obviously a year 2000 washer and dryer had to get into the hatch somehow, right?

Of course, you could make the argument that Kelvin was in on a conspiracy and he had just arrived prior to Desmond's arrival and fed Desmond a bunch of lies. But why go to great extents to make the place look like it was built in the 70's and then stock it with cutting edge appliances?

Because the place *has* existed since the 70's. We dont know ANYTHING except someone named Kelvin had to put the numbers in previous to Desmond. We dont know for how long. Speculation makes no sense when trying to determine the date of something and most logical explanation. Those washers and dryers are from the year 2000, Desmond arrived in 2001. Period.

This makes the washer and dryer WHILE DESMOND WAS IN THE HATCH perfectly feasible.

And my comment about the Sears freighter was a joke.

Yeah I know, mine was too. =]

540 is 5 times 108 for whatever the heck that means????????

You are right as rain!!! So we have another instance of the numbers in a different form shaping things.

This makes the washer and dryer WHILE DESMOND WAS IN THE HATCH perfectly feasible. My arguments are based on speculation, I concede that point, but I disagree that it is "perfectly feasible". There aren't really many plausible scenarios where the new washer and dryer are explained easily. There are a few stretches where it's theoretically possible, but not "perfectly feasible".

but the guy before him had been there god knows how long and replacements never came. btw, 365 x 3 = 1095, clearly more than 540 days.

my guess is that the Dharma Initiative, or possibly the Hanso Institute altogether, was abandoned.

Desmond obviously hasn't told us the whole story just yet since his explainations don't explain: the serum he shoots into himself and the "What does one snowman say to the other snowman?" question. I guess Kelvin could have told Des about this before but still, why the serum?

But he said those were Kelvin's words, not his. So Kelvin told him he was saving the world, but he doesn't expand on it at all.



Yes he does. He says something about the strong magnetic field to impress upon Jack the significance of the site and the importance of his role.

But what about the strong magnetic field? There are strong magnetic fields all over the world. What's so 'world-saving' about this one?

But what about the strong magnetic field? There are strong magnetic fields all over the world. What's so 'world-saving' about this one?

Nowhere in the world is there a natural magnetic field that would make a key rise from your chest or make your fillings hurt. Maybe the site keeps the Earth's magnetic field from flipping, as we are overdue I believe.

I agree that the newer washer & dryer is not any big deal. I am surprised how much play it is getting on this board. Supplies & appliances obviously arrived sometime in the past 5 years. Since we have no real idea what happened before Desmond was brought into the hatch, the 3 year time frame still works with all of the supplies & appliances, IMHO.

However, I am wondering where the underground cable attaches to, now that we *know* (or I assume) that it is supplying electricity to the hatchlor pad...

DO we know how long Calvin was in the hatch before Desomond showed up?

For all we know he was never part of the original experiiment either..he himself could have been dragged off the beach by someone. He may not have given Desmond any answers because he had none to give.

then how would you explain the orientation film and everything else there already? I think calvin or kelvin is for sure a player in the experiment and now it is Desmond, we just don't know why yet.

then how would you explain the orientation film and everything else there already? I think calvin or kelvin is for sure a player in the experiment and now it is Desmond, we just don't know why yet.

The film and everything else were already there..whoever was there before Calvin just showed it to him the same way he showed it to Desmond.

That's not a hard and fast theory with me..its just one of many possibilities.

do you think Jack/Locke/Kate, are replacements? What is your theory on that?

Nope. I think they are plane crash survivors with no clue to what's going on.

questions abound
1. wheres calvins body, and who buried him
2. did he really exist?
3. why did the film guy say and dont use the computer for anything besides number entering?
holy monkey

If Desmond spent all those years making sure the world was safe
why run away and not even ask about the other survives?
Not even a if you want to live I suggest you get your people this way or that.
Also if the world is ending, were is her running to? With food for what, 2 days?
you are right it does not add up.

"Kelvin" (or "Calvin" pronounced with a Scottish accent) was the button-pusher, then Desmond arrives and shares button-pushing duties, then sometime in the past 3 years Kelvin died. Maybe "sometime in the last 3 years" was a few weeks ago, and Kelvin and Ethan were the same person? Ethan appeared from nowhere, took Claire somewhere where she was maybe injected with something, then Claire escaped, Ethan came after her, and Charlie shot him dead. Maybe they'll find some evidence of Claire in the hatch...

540 is 5 times 108 for whatever the heck that means????????

Good catch. I think most everything on this show means something, but what it is, I don't have a clue! :smile:

I think the kicker that Kelvin had been down there *at least* a bit longer than Desmond (meaning Kelvin had lived there for a few days longer, if not years) is that Kelvin told Desmond that the button saves the world. The "Orientation" film does not say this at all. So Desmond obviously got this idea from Kelvin who either got it from being down there a long time and figuring things out, someone told him it saved the world., or he made it up and told Desmond.

This is, of course, assuming that Desmond is being honest. But he seems like he might be.

I think the writer's make it very VERY clear that he has fresh supplies, and I think their motive for doing that is to keep everyone wondering WHERE the fresh supplies are coming from, and WHO is bringing them into the hatch. From the plasma television, to the state of the art blender, and more importantly, the FRESH FRUIT in the blender in the first episode... it's one of the unanswered (intentionally) questions we'll have to wait to get an answer to.

If the hatch is a Skinner's box... then perhaps the food just "appears." Desmond doesn't know where it comes from. He hits the button, the world is "saved" and the food/washer/dryer/motherboard appears.

(When, in reality, the DeGroots bring it in their little powered sharks that swim up to the hatch)

Ok, that's a stretch. But you heard it here first!

I do not understand why The Turning of the Screw isn't causing more of a ruckus on The Fuselage?? This could be a HUGE clue...why would Desmond hide the film reel behind this exact book?! It seems that the writers made it a POINT to have this novel mentioned in the script. I don't think this is something we should take lightly. Anyone have any info on this or happened to have read it??

Any thoughts/feelings/ideas/theories are appreciated!

I have read it and its a strange book. A governess gives an account of the posession of two children by evil ghosts.

However the weird thing about it is some have theorized that the events never happened but that the narrarator was mentally ill, in love with the father of the two children... and imagined the whole thing.

You can read it two ways. The first time through as though it were the factual account of something that happened and then it can be read again as the ravings of a mad woman. It makes sense either way.

Yes, I have read it a while ago.
It is what ED says. It leaves you with the perception of not knowing if what you just ( witnessed ) was real or not.
I took this as a clue and added this to my own out look on this episode.
Was what I just saw real or was it a ruse?

I think the writer's make it very VERY clear that he has fresh supplies, and I think their motive for doing that is to keep everyone wondering WHERE the fresh supplies are coming from, and WHO is bringing them into the hatch. From the plasma television, to the state of the art blender, and more importantly, the FRESH FRUIT in the blender in the first episode... it's one of the unanswered (intentionally) questions we'll have to wait to get an answer to.

We finally learned that there's a second entrance to the hatch - that was huge!! But we also know Desmond isn't going out to pick fresh fruit and shop at the Island's local Best Buy... so... it remains to be answered, and I can't WAIT!
I agree with you but I have to clarify that the cherries that Desmond used in his "shake" were from the huge jars of cherries in the pantry. He didn't pick them himself.

Now, while he says he he has to be down there to reset the counter every 108 minutes, he did say two things that sent up red flags for me.

1] "I don't get out much." Might have been a sarcastic remark but
2] He told Kate that the exit hatch lock "sticks." How would he know that if he's NEVER been outside.?

Hmmm ... Desmond's holding out on some info!

I think the guy, whoever set up Dharma (bearded guy from filmstrip) is Middle Eastern or Indian, and that's why the prevalent theme of Dharma, and I also think they were thrying to create a Utopian society among other things which would explain much of the symbolism.

www.thehansofoundation.com (http://www.thehansofoundation.com)

check this out, then look up what juxtapostional eugenics would mean, its kind of scary. Can you say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"
All I get is a "coming soon" registeration page. Is that what you wanted us to see? It's a tie-in website to the show. It's been registered by Bryan Burk, one of the LOST producers.

My arguments are based on speculation, I concede that point, but I disagree that it is "perfectly feasible". There aren't really many plausible scenarios where the new washer and dryer are explained easily. There are a few stretches where it's theoretically possible, but not "perfectly feasible".
We know that Desmond arrived 3 years prior to the plane crash. Plane crashed in 2004. That puts Desmond there in 2001 ... just when in 2001, we have no idea. Could have been Jan. 2001, could have been Dec. 2001. Most people don't figure the month to month dates when saying "X # of years." They simply go by the year to year calculations.

We don't know how long Calvin was there before Desmond crashed. He, too, might have come in Dec. 2000 and the washer and dryer might have already been there (perhaps delivered days or even months before his arrival).

What we do know is that Desmond said "Calvin died waiting for his replacement." That tells us that 1] Desmond was not his replacement. 2] Calvin was there (with or without Desmond) for over the 540 days.

So, if Desmond has been there 3 years (365 x 3 = 1095 days) and Calvin died before his replacement came and IF Calvin arrived in 2000, that would mean that Calvin lived at least 1 year and 175 days before he died. Of course, he may have lived way past the 540 days but the soonest he would have died (if he got on the island in 2000) would have been 2001 + about 6 mos. That proves that Desmond was taken in by Calvin since we know Desmond crashed 3 years before, which would be 2001.

What I want to know is ... if Calvin died AND Desmond has never been above ground since he went underground -- what did he do with Calvin's body? Did Calvin die above ground (and if so, how did Desmond verify that he died?)? Or did Desmond lie and he went above ground to burry Calvin? If he did that, then he'd know that the exit lock sticks when you try to open it. But would Desmond have gone above ground with the QUARENTIEN sign inside his hatch?

And what's in those buckets by the mural? Not paint! Is Calvin chopped up in those buckets? JUST KIDDING! ;)

The film and everything else were already there..whoever was there before Calvin just showed it to him the same way he showed it to Desmond.

That's not a hard and fast theory with me..its just one of many possibilities.
I don't think someone showed the film to Calvin. Desmond told us Calvin was alone. They work in pairs. I think Desmond would have told us that Calvin's partner died and he was waiting for his "partner" and not his replacement. They're two different things.

But the film could have been lying out with a note to explain to watch it or it might have already been set up in the projector when Calvin got there and of couse he'd watch it.

But ... if they work in pairs ... what did happen to Calvin's original partner? Or did they arrive on the island separately and his partner never did show up?

I do not understand why The Turning of the Screw isn't causing more of a ruckus on The Fuselage?? This could be a HUGE clue...why would Desmond hide the film reel behind this exact book?! It seems that the writers made it a POINT to have this novel mentioned in the script. I don't think this is something we should take lightly. Anyone have any info on this or happened to have read it??

Any thoughts/feelings/ideas/theories are appreciated!
I had picked up on that but totally forgot about it! Thanks for bringing it up.

Yeah, I do think that it plays into the idea of whether or not all we were told by Desmond was fact/fiction or a combination of both. But I kind of think that many of those here (including me) have already come to that conclusion.

All I get is a "coming soon" registeration page. Is that what you wanted us to see? It's a tie-in website to the show. It's been registered by Bryan Burk, one of the LOST producers.

It's http://www.thehansofoundation.org not .com. =]

It's http://www.thehansofoundation.org not .com. =]
That one is registered to ABC.

I have read it and its a strange book. A governess gives an account of the posession of two children by evil ghosts.

However the weird thing about it is some have theorized that the events never happened but that the narrarator was mentally ill, in love with the father of the two children... and imagined the whole thing.

You can read it two ways. The first time through as though it were the factual account of something that happened and then it can be read again as the ravings of a mad woman. It makes sense either way.
Would that be a kick in the gut if this is just a dream sequence of some kind...if that is the case..who is dreaming it??

Does anyone else think that Alvar Hanso looks a LOT like Leslie Nielsen??

http://www.thehansofoundation.org/alvarhanso.html

Found this: http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/namaste1.html when searching the meaning of Namaste ... one of the sign-off words in both the film in Desmond's bunker and on the website mentioned by sier. (Which, yes, is a fab read!) Thoughts?

There's an Easter Egg on this page: http://www.thehansofoundation.org/activeproject.html

Can you find it? ;)

Danielle thinks she killed them all. Any chance she was once a button pusher. She'd have been lying about not seeing the hatch before but then, she lied a lot in that episode. And, well she is crazy and was on a scientific expedition.

There's an Easter Egg on this page: http://www.thehansofoundation.org/activeproject.html

Can you find it? ;)

If you're referring to

the film

then, :biggrin: .

They just added it today. Last night the hidden name was there, but nothing happened when you clicked it.

Glad you found it, sheba!! :biggrin:

I thought his story was hysterical. Thanks for the laughs, Desmond. Ok... he crashes on the island, a strange man comes running out of the jungle, "Hurry, hurry! Come with me to my underground lair! Naturally, you go -- who wouldn't?! (I don't know about you, but I was always taught to rush off into the jungle with strange men to their secret hiding places.) So, the guy types in some numbers, pushes a button and tells you he just saved the world! And then, of course, you start doing it, too! And it is lovely.

You trust a man who just happened to be out for a walk when you crashed, even though he has to push a button every 108 minutes. You trust a film that tells you to push the button, but doesn't tell you why. As Vertical said, if it was so important to push the button, why did Dharma not just automate the process? Why did they leave it abandoned to Kelvin and then Desmond?

Since Dharma made a film to explain to the hatch monkeys about Dharma and what they need to do, it's obvious that they aren't just sending their own people in there to push the button. They're targeting people who don't know what Dharma is and tricking them into pushing the button.

Somehow Desmond falls for all this. I don't know if he was lying or this is just bad writing, but I can't believe he's that stupid and gullible.

Does anyone else think that Alvar Hanso looks a LOT like Leslie Nielsen??

http://www.thehansofoundation.org/alvarhanso.html
LOL yes! I've said that a few times in various posts regarding the film.. so far, that's about the only thing i'm sure i think right now - i'm trying to go through the boards and just catch up to things

I thought his story was hysterical. Thanks for the laughs, Desmond. Ok... he crashes on the island, a strange man comes running out of the jungle, "Hurry, hurry! Come with me to my underground lair! Naturally, you go -- who wouldn't?! (I don't know about you, but I was always taught to rush off into the jungle with strange men to their secret hiding places.) So, the guy types in some numbers, pushes a button and tells you he just saved the world! And then, of course, you start doing it, too! And it is lovely.

You trust a man who just happened to be out for a walk when you crashed, even though he has to push a button every 108 minutes. You trust a film that tells you to push the button, but doesn't tell you why. As Vertical said, if it was so important to push the button, why did Dharma not just automate the process? Why did they leave it abandoned to Kelvin and then Desmond?

Since Dharma made a film to explain to the hatch monkeys about Dharma and what they need to do, it's obvious that they aren't just sending their own people in there to push the button. They're targeting people who don't know what Dharma is and tricking them into pushing the button.

Somehow Desmond falls for all this. I don't know if he was lying or this is just bad writing, but I can't believe he's that stupid and gullible.
It all goes to tie-in with taking that "Leap of Faith." For someone like Desmond, not stupid or gullible but trusting, he was a no-brainer. Now, I'm not saying everything Desmond told us was truth or if he left out things but I do believe that he'd been in there for 3 years pushing that button and I do believe his story of how he was found. You crash on a deserted island and then you find someone who takes you to their "home" (I doubt Calvin said, "come to my underground bunker where I have to push this button to save the world" but probably said, come with me. I live over here aways ..." Desmond's choices would have been ... go with Calvin or stay with no shelter, no food or water. I might be scared, but I'd go if the man seemed okay. I don't think it's bad writing at all. We have to keep in mind that the circumstances of everyone on this island are not like any in the worlds we all know. "Drastic Times Call For Drastic Measures."

LOL yes! I've said that a few times in various posts regarding the film.. so far, that's about the only thing i'm sure i think right now - i'm trying to go through the boards and just catch up to things
LOL Thank goodness! I thought I was nuts seeing that man as Leslie Nielsen!

I've been like you ... just trying to keep my head above the threads! This is so much fun!!

It all goes to tie-in with taking that "Leap of Faith." For someone like Desmond, not stupid or gullible but trusting, he was a no-brainer. Now, I'm not saying everything Desmond told us was truth or if he left out things but I do believe that he'd been in there for 3 years pushing that button and I do believe his story of how he was found. You crash on a deserted island and then you find someone who takes you to their "home" (I doubt Calvin said, "come to my underground bunker where I have to push this button to save the world" but probably said, come with me. I live over here aways ..." Desmond's choices would have been ... go with Calvin or stay with no shelter, no food or water. I might be scared, but I'd go if the man seemed okay. I don't think it's bad writing at all. We have to keep in mind that the circumstances of everyone on this island are not like any in the worlds we all know. "Drastic Times Call For Drastic Measures."

Desmond said after he crashed Kelvin came running out of the jungle and said "Hurry, hurry! Come with me!" Desmond then followed him into the hatch and watched Kelvin push the button just in time, and then say he just saved the world. To me, that doesn't sound like the actions of a man who is "okay." I wouldn't follow him anywhere until I knew a lot more about him. It's not like Kelvin just walked up to Desmond, struck up a casual conservation and politely asked him to visit his home and have a drink.

It also must have occurred to Desmond how suspicious it was that Kelvin just happened to see him when he is supposed to be far inland pushing a button every 108 minutes.

Desmond said after he crashed Kelvin came running out of the jungle and said "Hurry, hurry! Come with me!" Desmond then followed him into the hatch and watched Kelvin push the button just in time, and then say he just saved the world. To me, that doesn't sound like the actions of a man who is "okay." I wouldn't follow him anywhere until I knew a lot more about him. It's not like Kelvin just walked up to Desmond, struck up a casual conservation and politely asked him to visit his home and have a drink.

It also must have occurred to Desmond how suspicious it was that Kelvin just happened to see him when he is supposed to be far inland pushing a button every 108 minutes.
The hatch is less than a mile from shore (this based on their telling us that it was 1/2 a mile from the caves and the caves aren't all that far from shore). It didn't take Kate that long to get to Sayid on the beach and for all we know, and it's a speculation, Calvin did go outside. Maybe, too, Calvin knew about the "Others" and didn't want Desmond getting caught by them. It does sound odd that he'd be there right when Desmond was but I'm sure, if that part of Desmond's story is truthful, we'll get filled in on it. I don't think we've heard the last of Calvin. There's another backstory there, if only from Desmond's memories.

if Desmond swam to shore how did his photo survive.......
maybe that's what we were supposed to get out of that shot- in that moment jack determined Des was lying.

Assuming that is a photo of Desmond and that he brought it to shore with him in a non-waterproof bag. I would expect an experienced sailor to keep a watertight bag full of items such as matches, flares, rations, some sort of beacon in case of such an emergency. He should also have a knife attached to his belt (from the various wilderness/survival things I've read/seen).

The question that interests me is as a round the world yachtsmen, he would have been in contact with his crew back on land and they would have been tracking his progress. Did the whopping electromagnet they seem to have hear his hatch interfere with his instruments, and is this what keeps causing stuff to crash into the island?

My first post...<grin>

Okay guys, I have a question/theory about pushing the button (sorry if it's a repeat). Has anyone thought that by NOT pressing "the button" every 108 minutes that action caused the plane to crash or a boat to sink...i.e., keeps people AWAY from the island? Just a thought.

The hatch is less than a mile from shore (this based on their telling us that it was 1/2 a mile from the caves and the caves aren't all that far from shore). It didn't take Kate that long to get to Sayid on the beach and for all we know, and it's a speculation, Calvin did go outside. Maybe, too, Calvin knew about the "Others" and didn't want Desmond getting caught by them. It does sound odd that he'd be there right when Desmond was but I'm sure, if that part of Desmond's story is truthful, we'll get filled in on it. I don't think we've heard the last of Calvin. There's another backstory there, if only from Desmond's memories.

When did we learn the hatch is less than a mile from shore? I don't recall that. It took Kate about an hour to go from the hatch to the shore and back at full speed, so it must be farther away than that. Locke and Boone went very far inland to find it when they were searching for Charlie and Claire. It's not believable to me that Kelvin would somehow have been on the beach to see Desmond crash at a time when he barely had enough time to make it back to push the button.

Assuming that is a photo of Desmond and that he brought it to shore with him in a non-waterproof bag. I would expect an experienced sailor to keep a watertight bag full of items such as matches, flares, rations, some sort of beacon in case of such an emergency. He should also have a knife attached to his belt (from the various wilderness/survival things I've read/seen).

The question that interests me is as a round the world yachtsmen, he would have been in contact with his crew back on land and they would have been tracking his progress. Did the whopping electromagnet they seem to have hear his hatch interfere with his instruments, and is this what keeps causing stuff to crash into the island?
Well, first we don't know that Desmond was in the water. A boat wreck doesn't mean that he was submerged in the water. It might have run up on the reef and gotten a hole in it and then he might have been able to make it to shore in a life boat or raft. Also, if whatever it is that messed up the plane's radio and got them off course could have done that, it's not surprising that it could have done the same with Desmond's instruments.

When did we learn the hatch is less than a mile from shore? I don't recall that. It took Kate about an hour to go from the hatch to the shore and back at full speed, so it must be farther away than that. Locke and Boone went very far inland to find it when they were searching for Charlie and Claire. It's not believable to me that Kelvin would somehow have been on the beach to see Desmond crash at a time when he barely had enough time to make it back to push the button.
I'm going to rewatch the eppy because I don't think it took her that long. I'll have to note the time when she leaves and what it says when she gets back. But, from the eppy of them moving to the caves, it just didn't seem like that long of a trek.

I'm going to rewatch the eppy because I don't think it took her that long. I'll have to note the time when she leaves and what it says when she gets back. But, from the eppy of them moving to the caves, it just didn't seem like that long of a trek.

The counter was around 45 minutes when she left the hatch to go fetch Sayid and at 5 minutes when they got back. So that makes it around 20 minutes one way.

Everyone runs at different speeds, but the average person walks at 3 miles per hour.

So ... had Kate been walking ... we could estimate the distance at about 1 mile.

But ... since she was running ... we are safe in assuming it is a significantly farther distance ...

***and also note that Kate went out via a door leading into the jungle. We don't know where the door is, so we don't know how long it took Kate to orient herself and figure out where she was, so she would know which way to go to get to the beach.

Ok I meant to post this last night but didn't have time. Just a note on the whole hatch thing and the idea that there might be an alarm when a boat crashes, remember that the shark had the same logo as everything in the hatch. So obviously there's more going on here than just an underground bunker with a button.

There's a lot of good stuff in here that I hadn't thought of or at least hadn't had a chance to think of yet. I was also curious as to why Desmond just took off and where he was going to. Perhaps it is all a lie and there's another bunker on the island. I have to watch again.

I think the hatch is 1.5 miles from the beach. The caves are 1 mile from the beach (I think this was said many times). I believe it is Jack who says in EP 2.1 (don't quote me on this, I'm not 100%) that the hatch is 0.5 miles away; this was while he was at the caves.

This struck me as odd b/c I thought the hatch much further into the jungle than just 0.5 miles from the caves. But we have to remember that when they found the hatch perhaps they had alredy traveled in one direction and then when Locke and Boone went off perhaps it was in a direction that went back in the vininity of the caves?!!? make sense?

Danielle thinks she killed them all. Any chance she was once a button pusher. She'd have been lying about not seeing the hatch before but then, she lied a lot in that episode. And, well she is crazy and was on a scientific expedition.
Didn't Danielle say that her crew was all "infected". If that's the case, maybe at one time there was a sickness on the island, then it was decontaminated, and Desmond just didn't know about it.

What puzzles me now about the whole "sickness" thing is that it's not mentioned in the film, nor is the quarantine. Which means that it must be something that came up after Desmond got to the island. Yet if that's the case what about the injections? Those aren't mentioned in the film either. And there's also Danielle's sickness, which could be something else entirely.

I think the hatch is 1.5 miles from the beach. The caves are 1 mile from the beach (I think this was said many times). I believe it is Jack who says in EP 2.1 (don't quote me on this, I'm not 100%) that the hatch is 0.5 miles away; this was while he was at the caves.

This struck me as odd b/c I thought the hatch much further into the jungle than just 0.5 miles from the caves. But we have to remember that when they found the hatch perhaps they had alredy traveled in one direction and then when Locke and Boone went off perhaps it was in a direction that went back in the vininity of the caves?!!? make sense?
I think you're right. 1.5 miles from shore sounds about right. And, yes, Jack did say the hatch was .5 miles from the caves.

Now, if man walks 3 miles an hour (average), one could believe that one could walk 1.5 miles in a half hour. That would give Calvin time to go to the beach and back with 8/10 of an hour left over. 108 minutes = 1.8 hours. And since Desmond said Calvin came "running" out of the jungle to meet him on the beach, he may have been running all or part of the way, which would have cut down the time allowed to go out and return by quite a bit. With 1.8 hours between pushing the button, it doesn't seem odd at all that Calvin might have gone outside of the bunker and accidently seen Desmond when he came ashore.

And how many days in 3 yrs? 1,095. A little overdue aren't they?

I tried to catch up by reading all the pages but finally gave up and scanned so if all this has been said before, sorry!

I think Skinner is the clue. How many times will a rat push a button?

jbdean, way back there somewhere you ask how do we know its a wrecked boat---Danielle labeled it that way on her map.

I want the flashback to see exactly what Desmond was doing while they watched that film. I don't buy any of it. Something is very wrong with his story and you don't fix any computer with a jar full of rusty pieces. Also he seemed much too sane for someone who has gotten no REM sleep for a long period of time, perhaps years without it. Sheesh! He should be dead.
Desmond said pushing the button saves the world. Computer bust and he runs, on an island, to where? Even if he could get off the island, if not pushing the button destroys the world.....where the heck ya gonna go?

What bothers me the most is why oh why Jack didn't drag him back with him? I would have made him come back with me to the hatch, sit him down and say, "Now, start with day one." What happened to Kelvin's button-pushing partner? When did Kelvin die? Where did you bury him? What.......
You get the point ;)

I tried to catch up by reading all the pages but finally gave up and scanned so if all this has been said before, sorry!

I think Skinner is the clue. How many times will a rat push a button?

jbdean, way back there somewhere you ask how do we know its a wrecked boat---Danielle labeled it that way on her map.

I want the flashback to see exactly what Desmond was doing while they watched that film. I don't buy any of it. Something is very wrong with his story and you don't fix any computer with a jar full of rusty pieces. Also he seemed much too sane for someone who has gotten no REM sleep for a long period of time, perhaps years without it. Sheesh! He should be dead.

Desmond said pushing the button saves the world. Computer bust and he runs, on an island, to where? Even if he could get off the island, if not pushing the button destroys the world.....where the heck ya gonna go?

What bothers me the most is why oh why Jack didn't drag him back with him? I would have made him come back with me to the hatch, sit him down and say, "Now, start with day one." What happened to Kelvin's button-pushing partner? When did Kelvin die? Where did you bury him? What.......
You get the point ;)
So, then you want the show to end this season? :24: It will be so much more fun to watch them unravel the mysteries within the bunker than to have Desmond sit there and spill his guts.

You said Danielle's map had it marked as a shipwreck? I've seen one of her maps (not the arial one but the one that shows the island at sea level) and all it has is a boat looking like it's docked at the shore. Which map has the "shipwreck" marked on it? And are we sure it's not her ship on that map?

As for Desmond's "should be dead" due to lack of good sleep, I agree. But we still don't know what's in those vials. They must hold the key to why he's been able to last as long has he has in the conditions he's been in.

Desmond ran off into the woods. He lived. He'll be back to share more bits and pieces as the show progresses. I just have "faith" that he will! :biggrin:

Of course, I don't want it to end! Just commenting on his behavior. Don't think that is what most would do......just let Desmond go off to no where. Talking human nature here, not plot. (I also like the Desmond character, worry over the red shirt spinning in the dryer and would have liked to have him around a bit longer.)

I think we have plenty of plot left as they go from hatch to hatch to hatch. :rolleyes:

I do hope they are not revealing too much this early to placate all those that complained they wanted ALL the answers last season. I like the character interaction and could use a bit more of it than we have seen thus far this season.

Here is Danielle's map with English translation. Note the boat/ship wrecked on the reef area. Been wondering from last season when they would tie that in.

http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapenglish1cx.jpg

Of course, I don't want it to end! Just commenting on his behavior. Don't think that is what most would do......just let Desmond go off to no where. Talking human nature here, not plot. (I also like the Desmond character, worry over the red shirt spinning in the dryer and would have liked to have him around a bit longer.)

I think we have plenty of plot left as they go from hatch to hatch to hatch. :rolleyes:

I do hope they are not revealing too much this early to placate all those that complained they wanted ALL the answers last season. I like the character interaction and could use a bit more of it than we have seen thus far this season.

Here is Danielle's map with English translation. Note the boat/ship wrecked on the reef area. Been wondering from last season when they would tie that in.

http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapenglish1cx.jpg

Cool, hadn't seen that before. I can't quite make out her actual writing in some places, but maybe the shipwreck is her own boat. The picture she has drawn (over the island, so added after the original drawing - presumably done whilst at see before her boat crashed) doesn't look like a round the world yacht - I think it's her research vessel.

I wonder if she knew about Desmond crashing at all. If she did, would she have tried to locate him?

I think the replacements aren't coming becuase danielle changed the signal from the one with the numbers to her own distress call.

Also he seemed much too sane for someone who has gotten no REM sleep for a long period of time, perhaps years without it. Sheesh! He should be dead.


True dat! No way could Desmond have been pushing that button every 108 minutes for any length of time without serious psychosis (at the least) setting in... when a body is deprived of REM sleep, the body will create a REM state even when fully awake which would result in some very serious and scary hallucinations... unless, of course, you had some sort of magic vaccine to counteract it! :smile:

Another thing that bugs me... why would the hatch have the "Quarantine" warning with its lower ladder rungs ripped out, yet the front door exit have no such precautions? And did anyone else notice that when Kate, Desmond and Jack all exited through the inner front door, a definite "whoosh" sound of depressurization occurred? Now why would that be, considering the blown hatch should have equalized any air pressure variations?

If you live underground for several years like Desmond, and you never get to sleep more then an hour everytime. Then you will get used to it. Maybe he sleep between almost every "input"?

But then, as far as I can think, he is a liar! The photo of him and the girl obviously states that he wasn't stranded on the island. At least not in the way he meant. If he has to swim to shore then all his belongings except clothing will be destroyed. But apperantly the photo didd just fine deep down under water.

About the shipwreck on Danielles maps, maybe it is the ship Danielle once came with. Who knows? Maybe it is a shipwreck not belonging either to Danielle or Desmond. For all we know the island may be full of stranded people. I mean, 5 other hatches with expirements (at least?)

But one thing is for sure in my little head. The Degroots (spelling?) is still on the island, or at least not far away. Mr DeGroot is one bearded man who likes to kidnapp kids in the middle of the night. Mrs Degroot is a filthy woman who likes to throw explosives onto homebuilt rafts. And Mr Alvar Hanso, has a son who is bald and he once stole his kidney. Maybe I am way of? But as I said, in my little head, this is obvious!

If you live underground for several years like Desmond, and you never get to sleep more then an hour everytime. Then you will get used to it. Maybe he sleep between almost every "input"?

umm, no. Your body could not survive sleeping consistently in one-hour intervals. REM sleep is as necessary as air, food, and water. REM is normally not achieved in the sleep cycle until you have slept for at least 90-100 minutes. Keeping that button pushed every 108 minutes requires a minimum of two people working in shifts; it's simply not physically possible for one person to do it alone for any extended length of time.

About the shipwreck on Danielles maps, maybe it is the ship Danielle once came with. Who knows? Maybe it is a shipwreck not belonging either to Danielle or Desmond.

agreeance... I wonder who's yellow shipwreck appears in the background of this photo (between Michael's and Shaft's heads)? Maybe it belongs to that unknown person in the background, on the left side of Michael's head?
http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimagepopup&pid=46305&fullsize=1

But one thing is for sure in my little head. The Degroots (spelling?) is still on the island, or at least not far away. Mr DeGroot is one bearded man who likes to kidnapp kids in the middle of the night. Mrs Degroot is a filthy woman who likes to throw explosives onto homebuilt rafts. And Mr Alvar Hanso, has a son who is bald and he once stole his kidney. Maybe I am way of? But as I said, in my little head, this is obvious!

For the DeGroots to have appeared on the Others' boat would mean that the date of the Orientation film is false or they have discovered the Fountain of Youth... and I didn't really notice any "shocked" reaction by Locke if Alvar was indeed his father. But hey, stranger things have happened, no?

I think the hatch is 1.5 miles from the beach. The caves are 1 mile from the beach (I think this was said many times). I believe it is Jack who says in EP 2.1 (don't quote me on this, I'm not 100%) that the hatch is 0.5 miles away; this was while he was at the caves.

This struck me as odd b/c I thought the hatch much further into the jungle than just 0.5 miles from the caves. But we have to remember that when they found the hatch perhaps they had alredy traveled in one direction and then when Locke and Boone went off perhaps it was in a direction that went back in the vininity of the caves?!!? make sense?

It strikes me as very odd also. I personally think this is another error by the writers, though there's no way to prove it. Locke and Boone were out there for many hours searching for Charlie and Claire, and they didn't seem to be wandering around or going in circles. Some time after they split off from Jack and Kate in another direction, Locke said to Boone "The trail's been cold for a quarter mile, dangerous terrain ahead. If you start now, you'll make it back before dark." We next saw them at night, still traveling in the same direction, and Boone said "I think we should head back." I got the strong impression that they were many miles from the caves.

I think you're right. 1.5 miles from shore sounds about right. And, yes, Jack did say the hatch was .5 miles from the caves.

Now, if man walks 3 miles an hour (average), one could believe that one could walk 1.5 miles in a half hour. That would give Calvin time to go to the beach and back with 8/10 of an hour left over. 108 minutes = 1.8 hours. And since Desmond said Calvin came "running" out of the jungle to meet him on the beach, he may have been running all or part of the way, which would have cut down the time allowed to go out and return by quite a bit. With 1.8 hours between pushing the button, it doesn't seem odd at all that Calvin might have gone outside of the bunker and accidently seen Desmond when he came ashore.

Thanks for the info about Jack saying the hatch is .5 miles from the caves. Kate left the hatch at 85:00 and returned at 24:00, and I assume she was running most of the time. Of course, she (inexplicably) brought Hurley along, so that probably slowed her down a ton. To me, though, the key is that -- regardless of how far inland the hatch is and whether he was running or walking -- Kelvin was at the beach at a time when he just barely had enough time to go back and push the button, and he just happened to see Desmond crash within this very short timeframe, and he somehow got Desmond to believe this story. This isn't believable to me, but that's just my opinion.

Of course, I don't want it to end! Just commenting on his behavior. Don't think that is what most would do......just let Desmond go off to no where. Talking human nature here, not plot. (I also like the Desmond character, worry over the red shirt spinning in the dryer and would have liked to have him around a bit longer.)

I think we have plenty of plot left as they go from hatch to hatch to hatch. :rolleyes:

I do hope they are not revealing too much this early to placate all those that complained they wanted ALL the answers last season. I like the character interaction and could use a bit more of it than we have seen thus far this season.

Here is Danielle's map with English translation. Note the boat/ship wrecked on the reef area. Been wondering from last season when they would tie that in.

http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapenglish1cx.jpg
>>Of course, I don't want it to end!<< Whew! That's good to know! ;)

But you know, while I can see what you're saying ... I don't know really if Jack would have done that. After talking about Sarah, his mind was elsewhere. This whole thing has really unsettled him and besides being exhausted, he's having some major conflict inside of himself right now. Those last moments that we see Jack on that crest, as Desmond takes off, has Jack just nearly having a nervous break down. I think the writers did a fantastic job (as did Matt) in showing that all that has happened so far on the island is really taking its toll on him. I mean, for one thing, for Jack to pull the gun on Desmond out there, threatening to shoot him, is so opposite to what "Jack, the all-caring doctor" is really like it showed us how close to cracking he probably is. Jack could never shoot someone in a situation like that ... unarmed man. That would go against everything he stands for -- saving life. I don't think it's odd that he just let him go. Letting him go was logical because he's in the middle of something that he just cannot explain, cannot rationalize, cannot comprehend.

The map: That's the same one I saw. But note that there is no French to explain the boat and the boat does not look like it's wrecked, only docked. I think that map has had the text added by someone that put 2+2 together on their own. I think that boat represents Danielle's boat. But my question about the map, and I've posted this before but no one has commented back, is: where was the "artist" standing when they drew the map? They are obviously out at sea. At first I thought, it must be Danielle standing onboard her own boat but then I thought, if she's on her boat ... how does she know all the points to draw if she's not on the island yet? And do we know that she drew it? Because I'm thinking ... the Others have a boat. Did they draw it and she "found" it?

umm, no. Your body could not survive sleeping consistently in one-hour intervals. REM sleep is as necessary as air, food, and water. REM is normally not achieved in the sleep cycle until you have slept for at least 90-100 minutes. Keeping that button pushed every 108 minutes requires a minimum of two people working in shifts; it's simply not physically possible for one person to do it alone for any extended length of time. First, Desmond has 108 minutes between cycles of pushing the button. That's 1.8 hours. If he fell asleep instantly, which wouldn't be hard to explain considering his situation of being exhausted, he'd have enough time to get in some REM at least some of the time. And, again, we have no idea what the injections do for him. It's only been speculated that it's to ward off the "sickness." Could be something that helps him fall asleep when the time comes ... or a combination of lots of things.

agreeance... I wonder who's yellow shipwreck appears in the background of this photo (between Michael's and Shaft's heads)? Maybe it belongs to that unknown person in the background, on the left side of Michael's head?
http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimagepopup&pid=46305&fullsize=1
I see the yellow "something" ... good catch! But I'm not going to commit to it being a ship off of that photo. Could be, but it's just not clear enough to tell for sure. BUT who is the shirtless man that's in the small clearing (to our left of Michael's head)? When I first saw that pix, before I saw the eppy, I thought it was Sawyer. But now we know it can't be. I hope it wasn't someone from the crew that accidently got caught on camera! That would blow! LOL

For the DeGroots to have appeared on the Others' boat would mean that the date of the Orientation film is false or they have discovered the Fountain of Youth... and I didn't really notice any "shocked" reaction by Locke if Alvar was indeed his father. But hey, stranger things have happened, no?This I totally agree with. The people on the boat, while resembling the DeGroots, are too young to be them. And if they've found the "Fountain of Youth" and look that bad (LOL), I think they need to get their money back 'cause they've been rooked! :24:

I wonder who's yellow shipwreck appears in the background of this photo (between Michael's and Shaft's heads)? Maybe it belongs to that unknown person in the background, on the left side of Michael's head?
http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimagepopup&pid=46305&fullsize=1


Is it the back of the plane? We can't take any of Ana Lucia's story seriously.

Though, the bottom does look rather keel-ish.

Hmmmmmmm.

Who *is* that guy?

Is it the back of the plane? We can't take any of Ana Lucia's story seriously.

Though, the bottom does look rather keel-ish.

Hmmmmmmm.

Who *is* that guy?
Yeah, look really closely and 1] you can't see his legs below the knees, or behind him 2] he seems to be standing in front of something that doesn't look organic ... it looks like it's metal & 3] he looks like he's holding a white piece of paper (a script?). There's a white square just at chest level and it looks like his hands are clasping it because there is a thin dark line that seems to run from his forearm to the white paper, like a hand.

I really want to know who that is!

Jocko said:

agreeance... I wonder who's yellow shipwreck appears in the background of this photo (between Michael's and Shaft's heads)? Maybe it belongs to that unknown person in the background, on the left side of Michael's head?
http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimagepopup &pid=46305&fullsize=1
My first reaction?
Yellow school bus
If there can be a power boat in the vicinity, I guess there could also be a school bus.

- I'm watching Orientation again and jeeze nice how Kelvin was the same size as Desmond...he had jumpsuits that he could wear after Kelvin died...just a thought.

Ok so no one takers on the shark thing......having the logo, does that indicate that there are more stations on the island or that this is the only one on the island. If there were more on the island, wouldn't Desmond have tried to find them? Is this station called the Swan or is that the whole project name and if it's just this station then are there other logos perhaps? Maybe not hitting the button either shuts down the security system or starts it up??

My hubby picked up on the original scientists being the others as well and after watching it again that guy definitely bears a strong resemblance to the other on the raft. Apologies if this has been discussed and shot down but when the others first appeared I heard people saying that the two other guys on the raft were twins? Can anyone confirm or deny this? If they are twins, it would make even more sense.

I can't help thinking about Ethan and wondering if maybe he's Calvin but then how would Desmond know he's dead without knowing about the plane crash but then maybe he did know about it and is lying.

One other thing a friend and I are wondering about is why he didn't take more with him, he only took some of those injection thingys and not much food?

Here's a question that hasn't been asked after reading fifteen pages of text in this thread...

How did Calvin\Kelvin know that Desmond had crashed in order to run to the beach to collect him?

Right, because we all know Desmond doesn't get out much that's why he didn't know about the plane. hmmm

My first reaction?
Yellow school bus
If there can be a power boat in the vicinity, I guess there could also be a school bus.
LOL True, true!

But I had had an idea of how I think the Other's boat was powered. Does anyone recall when we saw those little white flecks floating in the air? Well, I think what we were seeing was ash. Yep, I think the boat is powered by wood or someother burnable organic substance ... like an old locamotive. I really could not reconcile with the gasoline theory and wood burning seems the logical energy source plus that ash floating in the air fits.

Thanks for the info about Jack saying the hatch is .5 miles from the caves. Kate left the hatch at 85:00 and returned at 24:00, and I assume she was running most of the time. Of course, she (inexplicably) brought Hurley along, so that probably slowed her down a ton. To me, though, the key is that -- regardless of how far inland the hatch is and whether he was running or walking -- Kelvin was at the beach at a time when he just barely had enough time to go back and push the button, and he just happened to see Desmond crash within this very short timeframe, and he somehow got Desmond to believe this story. This isn't believable to me, but that's just my opinion.
I can see your point but I'm a strong believer in coincidence and I don't find it odd that Calvin happened to be there at the same time Desmond was. And for Desmond to believe Calvin, I don't disbelieve that either. He's a man of faith and as Locke to Jack (when refering to Desmond's story), 'he's all we've got ... ' something to that effect. What he was saying is what I think Desmond believe with Calvin. He's all he had to rely on for the truth so why doubt him? Until he was proven wrong, Desmond kept pushing the button. And as for lack of sleep ... we don't know what is in those vials. Might be something to keep them going and I still think he would have enough time for REM sleep if he'd get up, push the button and go back to sleep 8 times a day or more. Wouldn't be ideal but it could work.

LOL True, true!

But I had had an idea of how I think the Other's boat was powered. Does anyone recall when we saw those little white flecks floating in the air? Well, I think what we were seeing was ash. Yep, I think the boat is powered by wood or someother burnable organic substance ... like an old locamotive. I really could not reconcile with the gasoline theory and wood burning seems the logical energy source plus that ash floating in the air fits.
Or those were just bugs swirling around the lights as bugs are wont to do.

When Desmond met Jack running on the bleachers, he had the logo on his shirt. If he crashed on the Island an never knew about this place then why was he wearing that shirt??

if Desmond swam to shore how did his photo survive.......
maybe that's what we were supposed to get out of that shot- in that moment jack determined Des was lying.
When our house burned down ( i mean to the ground) there was a small corner of my bedroom left and it had a small box full of photos.. we were able to save a lot of them.
so its not impossible to have the photos be in okay condition.

When Desmond met Jack running on the bleachers, he had the logo on his shirt. If he crashed on the Island an never knew about this place then why was he wearing that shirt??
Are you kidding?? A MISSED IT AGAIN!!! Damn..you can't blink on this show. Nice catch.

umm, no. Your body could not survive sleeping consistently in one-hour intervals. REM sleep is as necessary as air, food, and water. In fact, that seems not to be true. According to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_eye_movement

some people does not have REM sleep (because of brain damage), and certain anti-depressants inhibit REM sleep.

Moreover, ISTR that if you start sleeping in short periods, your brain slids into REM phase faster to compensate.

What is the connection between Desmond and Sara?

Here's a question that hasn't been asked after reading fifteen pages of text in this thread...

How did Calvin\Kelvin know that Desmond had crashed in order to run to the beach to collect him?
Why do we assume that Calvin knew that Desmond's boat had wrecked? Why couldn't he have been on the beach, or heading toward it when he saw Desmond? I mean ... what are the chances that the very spot where Michael and Sawyer crawl up on to the beach is the exact same spot that Jin comes running out to? Simple. Coincidences just happen sometimes.

Or those were just bugs swirling around the lights as bugs are wont to do.
Can't be insects. We know they were 15 miles out to sea. Insects don't fly that far from land.

Does anyone want to know the sort of secret? I think most of you have figured it out. First five people to PM me will get an awesome spoiler. Well, you've already figured it out sorta. Just do it.

In fact, that seems not to be true. According to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_eye_movement

some people does not have REM sleep (because of brain damage), and certain anti-depressants inhibit REM sleep.

Moreover, ISTR that if you start sleeping in short periods, your brain slids into REM phase faster to compensate.
Leonardo Di Vinci used to sleep for 20 minutes every hour so he had more time to get things done. "Seinfeld" had an episode that saw Kramer try that to disasterous results (he got tossed into the river after falling asleep on top of his mob connected girlfriend) so the jury is out as to wether it works or not...at least for Kramer.

When Desmond met Jack running on the bleachers, he had the logo on his shirt. If he crashed on the Island an never knew about this place then why was he wearing that shirt??
Sorry. Wrong logo. Two totally different logos. Desmond's shirt has a red 2 headed falcon (Scottish Freemason's emblem). Nothing at all like what's in the hatch or on the shark.

When Desmond met Jack running on the bleachers, he had the logo on his shirt. If he crashed on the Island an never knew about this place then why was he wearing that shirt??
The logo on Desmonds shirt at the stadium was not the dharma logo.

Can't be insects. We know they were 15 miles out to sea. Insects don't fly that far from land.
True...but neither do little boats like that unless there is a port somewhere near...hmmm.

Are you kidding?? A MISSED IT AGAIN!!! Damn..you can't blink on this show. Nice catch.
No you didn't miss anything. Different logos completely.

In fact, that seems not to be true. According to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_eye_movement

some people does not have REM sleep (because of brain damage), and certain anti-depressants inhibit REM sleep.

Moreover, ISTR that if you start sleeping in short periods, your brain slids into REM phase faster to compensate.
Thank you, Lektu! Excellent find. I'm bookmarking that one! :biggrin:

No you didn't miss anything. Different logos completely.
*whew*...Bailed me out again Jane...I didn't think I missed that.

True...but neither do little boats like that unless there is a port somewhere near...hmmm.
One has nothing to do with the other.

Insects do not have the ability to rationalize. They simply would not be that far out from land. The people in the boat could take precautions to not have the boat fill with water, rationalizing that they might sink. What you said does not show that insects would be 15 miles out from land.

One has nothing to do with the other.

Insects do not have the ability to rationalize. They simply would not be that far out from land. The people in the boat could take precautions to not have the boat fill with water, rationalizing that they might sink. What you said does not show that insects would be 15 miles out from land.
Actually...I had moved past the insects not knowing they were that far away and was wondering how such a small boat would be so far out unless there was another launch point we are not yet privy too..

Actually...I had moved past the insects not knowing they were that far away and was wondering how such a small boat would be so far out unless there was another launch point we are not yet privy too..
Oh! Sorry. :smile:

Well, I guess that the boat could go farther than a mile out to sea if they were careful. What I'm thinking is that from the shore, where the raft took off, you can easily see 15 miles out and you can't see anything but water and the horizon. While Walt pointed out how much bigger the island was than he thought, as they were going out to sea, it was land to the right of where the raft left. By the time they got 15 miles out, that part of the island would have been long behind them. I know Sawyer said that a boat like that isn't for farther than a mile from shore but that doesn't mean that it can't go out farther. It just means that if it does, they have to be really careful and I think they were. They weren't speeding or anything so I think they could have been out farther than a mile ... and the sea was very calm. But wouldn't it be something if way out at sea they have some kind of underwater set up? Like they'd dock the boat at the "hatch" that just sticks up from the water and then they go down into it like into Desmond's bunker but it's under water. Ooooh, shades of Jules Vern! :biggrin:

Oh! Sorry. :smile:

Well, I guess that the boat could go farther than a mile out to sea if they were careful. What I'm thinking is that from the shore, where the raft took off, you can easily see 15 miles out and you can't see anything but water and the horizon. While Walt pointed out how much bigger the island was than he thought, as they were going out to sea, it was land to the right