I tried. I really tried to give this show a break. But it has jumped the shark.

We are in a hatch on an island and we find a guy with computers and washer dryers. We act totally normal. Wouldnt you be out of your mind? Wouldnt you be unable to function?

And then there is Hurley, jack, locke, kate, and sayid in the room. Hurley hasnt told anyone that the numbers he won the lottery with are on the hatch. He doesnt when they are all together and typing them in to the computer. They have a gun to Desmond at first- then just let him go away. He cant answer anything? Jack knows he has met desmond before but that is not paramount on his mind - he is not incredulous at this fact and doesnt tell anyone. Sayid fixes a computer without any explanation. They argue about doing the numbers in the computer when they could just do them and have 108 minutes to discuss it afterward.

And on and on and on and on. Its like a bad cartoon where the audience sees something right behind a character but everytime the character turns around it is gone.

THIS IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD BEHAVE. IT IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD COMMUNICATE.

These people are supposed to be smart but yet we are subjected to them acting like morons continuously.

Sorry, im done with this show.

I tried. I really tried to give this show a break. But it has jumped the shark.

We are in a hatch on an island and we find a guy with computers and washer dryers. We act totally normal. Wouldnt you be out of your mind? Wouldnt you be unable to function?

And then there is Hurley, jack, locke, kate, and sayid in the room. Hurley hasnt told anyone that the numbers he won the lottery with are on the hatch. He doesnt when they are all together and typing them in to the computer. They have a gun to Desmond at first- then just let him go away. He cant answer anything? Jack knows he has met desmond before but that is not paramount on his mind - he is not incredulous at this fact and doesnt tell anyone. Sayid fixes a computer without any explanation. They argue about doing the numbers in the computer when they could just do them and have 108 minutes to discuss it afterward.

And on and on and on and on. Its like a bad cartoon where the audience sees something right behind a character but everytime the character turns around it is gone.

THIS IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD BEHAVE. IT IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD COMMUNICATE.

These people are supposed to be smart but yet we are subjected to them acting like morons continuously.

Sorry, im done with this show.

Thanks for sharing?

I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I think you're in the minority. Yes, everyone wants to know exactly what's going and and wants to have all the mysteries solved. But I think that's a lot to ask for. You should look at what the episode had. Lots of interesting interaction and dialogue between Jack and Locke. Even more backstory on Locke's character. I mean the show was amazing and I don't say that just because I love Locke. I mean it because it was great storytelling.

I had some trouble with Desmond saying "damn" last week, but "darn" this week.
Same line, same scene, but "darn"?? what's up with that?

Its not so much that I want answers.

Its that I want an intelligent show with any answers.

The characters are not intelligent and do not behave according to their own personas - and this is lazy writing.

Thanks for sharing?
Hello... exactly!

Imagine for a second that you are Jack.

Wouldnt the FIRST THING YOU DO, before you could conceive of doing anything else, is say to Desmond "How the hell did I meet you 4 years ago and now we are both here?"

And would Desmond upon realizing he has met Jack before be so blase about the whole thing?

I would think that this would be a show stopper - enough to put a shotgun in your mouth and blow it off - but both characters seem fine with not asking each other or finding out.

IS THAT HOW THEY WOULD ACT??

My opinion is diametrically opposite of yours. If you don't like the show, go to a hater board. No point in making people mad here.

Look, I realize that there are loyalists who cant think about anything other than how good the show is.

No problem. Dont read. But I am sharing because I know there are people who are frustrated just like me. People who feel that any good writing needs to rely on the consistency of character development and not random unexplained behavior.

If you love this show no matter what this thread is not for you.

THIS IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD BEHAVE. IT IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD COMMUNICATE.

These people are supposed to be smart but yet we are subjected to them acting like morons continuously.

Sorry, im done with this show.


YOU, nor anyone you know, have ever been on an island like this...You have no idea what's going on and why they act like they do. No one does.

Its so funny - if you post something that is in dissent to the popular opinion here you are told to go to a hater board?

What?

Ever hear of thinking? How about a discussion?

Go to a hater board and let you drink the Kool Aid. No problem.

No, I think the general census is along the lines of, "If you don't like it, fine. But we really don't care to hear it."

No one is forcing you to watch the show, if you don't want to you are more then welcome not to but why post about it?

OK jet -what is a POSSIBLE - and I mean ANYTHING POSSIBLE - explanation for them behaving this way?

Just connect some of the dots for me. Please.

Adios amigo, more great show for the rest of us.

As Hurley might say, Dude.. why would you bother to post to say that you are done with the show? Do you want us to convince you otherwise? To beg you to watch again?
Sorry, im done with this show.
While I accept your apology, I have to say, I'm not sure it's needed. If you've decided that you're done, just move on. We'll be ok. :)

i agree with both sides. i think you're overreacting a bit, but i do grow tired with loyalists who can't see a single fault in the show.

it's the best show on tv, but this season has been really iffy so far.

Why is there such militant opposition to anything questioning the show?

If you dont want to read it or participate - dont!

Im just looking to be educated. Im open minded. Im sharing my opinions in the hopes of being shown new opinions or similar opinions.

If you want a rah rah thread just go in the other 100000 posts here.

As Hurley might say, Dude.. why would you bother to post to say that you are done with the show? Do you want us to convince you otherwise? To beg you to watch again?

While I accept your apology, I have to say, I'm not sure it's needed. If you've decided that you're done, just move on. We'll be ok. :)

Ding ding ding!

WOW. Im really amazed at the amount of folks on here that just cant or wont engage in an intelligent discussion if it at all threatens their like of the show.

Really incredible.

Um... I thought the whole thing with Jack not confronting Desmond was that maybe Jack couldn't remember all that well who Desmond was, or maybe it was too much for him. You saw how Jack was going nuts about the whole concept of putting the numbers in and pressing the button. Seeing this guy in a hole in the middle of an island is so out there for Jack, and we know that he has a hard time believing in weird stuff.

He hasn't slept in a while either...

Does anyone have anything to say to the content of my message?

There have been 10 replies but nothing content oriented.

I think everything you've pointed out is within character.

Hurley has explained that he knows that people think he is crazy when he talks about the numbers being cursed and that he doesn't want people to think him crazy. He tries to stop Locke from inputting the numbers and when Locke gets the last number wrong he is willing to allow him to enter it incorrectly.

They take the gun off Desmond because they realize he is more concerned with trying to fix the computer than with hurting them.

Sayid explained why he didn't need an explanation. He saw there was a counter counting down and he deduced that the broken computer is necessary to halt/reset that countdown. Being a scientist and philosopher, this wasn't a difficult problem for him.

Jack doesn't want to admit that there is a fate and destiny. He is the "man of science", a doctor. That's why he doesn't make a big deal about having known him before. But as Locke points out, Jack is angry only because Desmond recognized him thereby forcing Jack to acknowledge that he recognizes Desmond as well.

These characters are staying true to themselves and Jack showed a great evolution in this episode back to a more Locke-friendly Jack.

No offense intended, but perhaps the problem is that you are a lazy viewer.

Um... I thought the whole thing with Jack not confronting Desmond was that maybe Jack couldn't remember all that well who Desmond was, or maybe it was too much for him. You saw how Jack was going nuts about the whole concept of putting the numbers in and pressing the button. Seeing this guy in a hole in the middle of an island is so out there for Jack, and we know that he has a hard time believing in weird stuff.

He hasn't slept in a while either...

EXCELLENT. That is what I am looking for. I can accept this, but being that he is so sleep deprived and at the end of his rope - I would think he would react by just holding a gun to desmond and demanding answers. He never asked the pivitol question "HOW THE HELL ARE WE HERE TOGETHER!!!???"

Imagine for a second that you are Jack.

Wouldnt the FIRST THING YOU DO, before you could conceive of doing anything else, is say to Desmond "How the hell did I meet you 4 years ago and now we are both here?"

And would Desmond upon realizing he has met Jack before be so blase about the whole thing?

I would think that this would be a show stopper - enough to put a shotgun in your mouth and blow it off - but both characters seem fine with not asking each other or finding out.

IS THAT HOW THEY WOULD ACT??

Jack wasn't sure it was Desmond and refuses to believe something so coincidental. So, he does not want to blurt out "Holy crap! I knew you 4 years ago. There must be some meaning to our meeting again!". That sort of thing stares him in the face, but he doesn't want to believe me.

Desmond can be passive about the whole thing because the guy is nuts. He's been stuck in a room for 3 years now. I wouldn't expect anything out of his actions. He's been trained to believe that the timer is not to be tampered with, so I'm sure his focus is on getting away, not getting aquainted with Jack.

Sorry, im done with this show.


Well then.... SEE YA.

IS THAT HOW THEY WOULD ACT??
Hard to say... people are different. Usually when people, oh I don't know, decide they're done with a show they either turn off the TV or change the channel or get on with their lives in some other way. But then there are a select few that go to the shows forums and complain about the show.
Anyway, I think Desmond was ready to talk about the fact that it IS odd that the two met up here, and Jack chased after Desmond because he was probably curious too but Desmond took the conversation into the direction of his wife and he just didn't want to go there I guess... I don't know but its certainly nothing that would stop me from watching the show... and I'm guessing you'll be watching next Wednesday too.

Everybodyhateshugo - thanks for the response.

Seeing this guy in a hole in the middle of an island is so out there for Jack, and we know that he has a hard time believing in weird stuff.

He hasn't slept in a while either...


I agree. I also think Jack is in a complete state of denial. You're right. All these island occurances are just too much for someone as grounded as Jack. He may not have acted as you or I would have, and it was a bit frustrating to watch, but he acted as Jack would.

Vanzack, you haven't tried to give this show a break at all. You have been slamming and coming on this board since last season talking about how much you hate the show. Once again, call me a prick if you will, and I remember saying the exact same thing to you last season... don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out.

-Harv-

Dangerdork - cant wait to hear what you have to say.

I ask one question. Hurley knows the numbers and their significance. He won the lottery with them. He made a quest before getting on the plane to find out their significance.

Then he sees them on the hatch. Then he sees them entered in to the computer. Being that you are trying to survive TOGETHER on an island - isnt this information something you would share?

Everybodyhateshugo - thanks for the response.
No problem. It helped me further appreciate just how amazingly this show is put together.

One further note is that - The threat of impending doom tends to give people a singularity of purpose.

Van, it's network TV. We've been tortured to death with the same blah-blah writing on other shows forever, all with the same result of slot-a into slot-b. While this show does sometimes becomes "lazy" in it's writing of it's characters, it does present plot-lines that we haven't seen before and we become engrossed in it's outcome.

Thanks harv - you and onaonxm must live very well in your shell.

you are quite the conversationalists. If we disagree with you - well then we are wrong and shouldnt post.

A little more on Jack, I took this from the "Jack on the Verge" thread, this is probably the best description of Jack at the moment:

besides the fact that jack needs rest, I think seeing Desmond brings home to Jack that just maybe Locke is right, that all this is happening for a reason, and that just blows him away. His whole reality is shifting, and he is having a really hard time dealing with it. Jack has always held on to logic and science. He's a realist. And he's finding himself at a loss and unable to handle and succeed in the situation he finds himself in applying logic. He can't use his mind and he is realizing that he's not in control. That's really tough for a guy like Jack to handle.
As for Jack and Sarah, I think something has happened to her, that is why Jack is so emotional when he says "I married her" obviously there's more to that.

wilekiyote - I AGREE. Its like having a kid that is so smart but gets D's in school.

Thats why I care - because it has such potential and is not like every other show and I hold it to a higher standard. I have never posted anything about WIll and Grace.

Thanks Sickotriz

plausible.

What about Hurley?

Thanks harv - you and onaonxm must live very well in your shell.

you are quite the conversationalists. If we disagree with you - well then we are wrong and shouldnt post.
Whatever man, I call them as I see them. I even took a second to address how I see the Desmond/Jack thing. If you don't like that I'm calling you out on the fact that you're NOT "done with the show" then I can't help that.

Thanks harv - you and onaonxm must live very well in your shell.

you are quite the conversationalists. If we disagree with you - well then we are wrong and shouldnt post.

You know, he was just pointing out that all you've been doing is making threats that you won't stop watching the show since season one and have been posting things like this for months.

All people are saying is if you don't like the show, good for your. We really don't care too much about your reasons though.

No one is afraid of your opinion, however much you would like to think so. You are obviously also interested in the show as you continue to talk about it with others after you say you will never watch it again, whats up with that?

Dangerdork - cant wait to hear what you have to say.

I ask one question. Hurley knows the numbers and their significance. He won the lottery with them. He made a quest before getting on the plane to find out their significance.

Then he sees them on the hatch. Then he sees them entered in to the computer. Being that you are trying to survive TOGETHER on an island - isnt this information something you would share?

Being told that you're crazy for many years, and being put in a mental hospital would make you second guess yourself most likely. He already threw a mini fit about the 'bad' numbers when the rest of them were trying to blow open the hatch. I'm guessing that he just doesn't want everyone to think he is crazy.. and I think that he will eventually tell everyone his story.

As for Hurley, I believe that he thinks the numbers are so dangerous that they should be known to as few people as possible. I seriously thought he was going to do something that prevented them from entering the numbers into the computer (like smash it or something), thereby causing a catastrophe and the title of next week's episode! Good to see it didn't go down like that.

*Edit*

Yeah, and the whole "everyone will think I'm crazy" thing... he DID spend some time in a mental institution, and that certainly doesn't help his case either. See what happened when he told Jack? Everyone's just gonna focus on the mental institution thing!

Thx onaonxm

Very insightful. My brain is full with your wisdom.

I don't completely agree with this poster's negative opinion, but I support his right to express it.

Alius - also thanks for your insight. It is incredibly insightful. I have never felt so full of insight.

What about Hurley?

As he has said before, he doesn't want to appear crazy to the rest of the group. The only person who has ever agreed that he might be right was Rousseau and look at how the survivors view her.

You know, he was just pointing out that all you've been doing is making threats that you won't stop watching the show since season one and have been posting things like this for months.

All people are saying is if you don't like the show, good for your. We really don't care too much about your reasons though.

No one is afraid of your opinion, however much you would like to think so. You are obviously also interested in the show as you continue to talk about it with others after you say you will never watch it again, whats up with that?

Yeah, enough with your negative crap. People will, eventually grow tired of it.

I'm So So So So So sick of posts like these.

As for Hurley, I believe that he thinks the numbers are so dangerous that they should be known to as few people as possible. I seriously thought he was going to do something that prevented them from entering the numbers into the computer (like smash it or something), thereby causing a catastrophe and the title of next week's episode! Good to see it didn't go down like that.

That is also a little frustrating. Watching Hurley try to stop things is like watching the coyote trying to catch the road runner. Always close but never enough.

He could have dove on that computer and made it a pancake if he wanted to - but just did enough to not do anything.

I'm So So So So So sick of posts like these.


Contos - heres a suggestion - DONT DONT DONT DONT DONT read them

You will be happier

I tried. I really tried to give this show a break. But it has jumped the shark.

We are in a hatch on an island and we find a guy with computers and washer dryers. We act totally normal. Wouldnt you be out of your mind? Wouldnt you be unable to function?

And then there is Hurley, jack, locke, kate, and sayid in the room. Hurley hasnt told anyone that the numbers he won the lottery with are on the hatch. He doesnt when they are all together and typing them in to the computer. They have a gun to Desmond at first- then just let him go away. He cant answer anything? Jack knows he has met desmond before but that is not paramount on his mind - he is not incredulous at this fact and doesnt tell anyone. Sayid fixes a computer without any explanation. They argue about doing the numbers in the computer when they could just do them and have 108 minutes to discuss it afterward.

And on and on and on and on. Its like a bad cartoon where the audience sees something right behind a character but everytime the character turns around it is gone.

THIS IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD BEHAVE. IT IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD COMMUNICATE.

These people are supposed to be smart but yet we are subjected to them acting like morons continuously.

Sorry, im done with this show.

I guess a huge point of the show is to know the reasoning behind the actions some of the Lostaways make. The point of this episode was allowing Jack to finally accept that some things are beyond his mental reasoning.

Its not neccessarily about what YOU would do persay, but what the people on the island is going to do.

"Hurley hasnt told anyone that the numbers he won the lottery with are on the hatch."
Hes hesitant to reveal his lottery winnings. His time will come.

"They have a gun to Desmond at first- then just let him go away"
I suppose the freakout of the computer and what to even do was to much for them...of course it didnt stop Jack from following him.


"Jack knows he has met desmond before but that is not paramount on his mind - he is not incredulous at this fact and doesnt tell anyone"
But thats why he reacts the way he does. He cant let himself accept it. Running into someone he randomly met 4 years previously in a hatch in the middle of nowhere was mind boggling. Thats why he wanted Desmond to admit there was nothing behind the hatch. Something he could wrap his mind around.

"Sayid fixes a computer without any explanation."
This was brought up you know. Locke goes to tell him and Sayid says they will talk about it afterwards. All Sayid needs to know is that people he has grown to trust need him to fix it. Not to mention he is military bred which means act act act asap.

"They argue about doing the numbers in the computer when they could just do them and have 108 minutes to discuss it afterward."
But its not that easy when they dont really know what it does. For all they know not putting the numbers in somehow allows them to escape. Jack has to work out his issues, which mean believing in something that is totally out of this world. Locke knows Jack needed to put it in, or else he would have mentally distanced himself from the whole situation.

The writers do everything for a reason, if not to add to the growth of one individual character.

Vansack, I don't have an opinion at the moment on whether or not the characters' reactions were totally realistic because it's late and I'm exhausted, and I'm in no way ready to give up on the show, but I agree with you on one thing. It makes no sense to me that people don't wish to allow other fans to engage in discussions that consist of topics other than positive and glowing commentary. We are not all exactly the same, which I would think would be obvious, and we like to discuss different things, so I have no idea why someone would feel a need to comment on this thread simply to berate you for your opinion. Seems totally counterintuitive to me, but hey -- whatever.

Cheers.

He could have dove on that computer and made it a pancake if he wanted to - but just did enough to not do anything.
See now that would have been out of character....and lazy writing to boot. :)

I liked the comparison to wily coyote trying to get the roadrunner...

i agree with both sides. i think you're overreacting a bit, but i do grow tired with loyalists who can't see a single fault in the show.

it's the best show on tv, but this season has been really iffy so far.


There are posts about continuity in this season, problems with it.

This epi frustrated you and you wanted to vent about it, and few tolerate that.
But there are a few who will; and will validate your strong feelings about
a show that draws strong feelings.

Sorry to be negative.

Somebody pass the KoolAid.

I guess its taboo to discuss anything except how awesome Sawyer is or how hot Jack is - but I thought some would.

Sorry to be a black rock to your white rock. But I am science and you are faith. I have no faith in the writers and you do. Im just looking for those of science to have a rational discussion with so if your feelings are hurt because I said a meany about the show then Im sorry - have a cookie and go to bed.

vanzack

I was also very annoyed by tonights episode... but I don't think to the point where I'm going to stop watching the show. I don't watch very much TV anyway besides sports.

The only character who I thought acted from what in my opinion made sense was Jack. He was the only one that wanted answers....Locke was giving up crap and it showed, Jack was just looking so frustrated.

But Desmond, I mean, really, I don't understand what's so difficult about saying he recognized him. He was brought to tears because he remembered him, and the 'miracle' that happened to his wife. Was it because it brought back memories of his wife?

I hope he didn''t let Desmond just run off without a trace. That would be like killing Ethan off without getting explanations all over again.

Great answer Jenn and Thanks.

But according to a former writer in rolling Stone your assumption that the writers do everything for a reason is not true. He states there is tons of backwriting and that there is no direction.

Im not saying that is gospel but interesting none the less.

Thanks again

Contos - heres a suggestion - DONT DONT DONT DONT DONT read them

You will be happier

I just don't understand the purpose of threatening to never watch the show ever again,
"I'm done with this show." multiple times, then continuing to watch the show, then posting threats again, etc. It's a vicious cycle I tell ya! I understand the frustration, having the characters sometimes or often (cough Jack) not acting as they would in real life but either stick with it or quit!

*This is a friendly message* - it's sometimes hard to tell without hearing tone of voice.

Its not so much that I want answers.

Its that I want an intelligent show with any answers.

The characters are not intelligent and do not behave according to their own personas - and this is lazy writing.

The problem is not that the characters are not intelligent it's that you're not understanding why the characters react the way they do so you don't agree with it.
Hurley would NOT tell the others that he won the lottery with those numbers because (as it's been shown repeatedly) he has issues with people thinking that he is crazy and the one time he Does give in and tell one of them Jack doesn't see anything past the "mental institution" so no his character would Not continue to tell people so they would think he was insane. He's had one person believe him (Danielle) and that one is all he's willing to risk... especially after the Jack thing.
And as for Jack not getting answers from Desmond... he doesn't WANT answers from Desmond because he already "knows" what's going on and that's that Desmond is being experimented on by someone and is insane for just blindly following without asking more questions. Would Another person try to demand answers? Certainly, but Jack has issues with any type of faith (as it's been shown time after time) so he already knows all that he needs to know about Desmond.
Would I share the numbers if I was Hurley? Yes, but I don't have issues with being perceived as crazy like he does. Would I question Desmond a lot more if I was Jack? Certainly because I don't have issues with faith the way that he does. It wouldn't be true to their Specific Characters if they just reacted the way anyone else would.

Vanzack,

I completely agree that someone that doesn't share the same opinion as me has as much right as I have to post my enjoyment of this episode. You missed the point of my post entirely. You're one of those people that has to argue with anything and everything just for the sake of having an argument with someone. The point of my post was that you've been making these threats of no longer watching this show since last season when you weren't pleased with some of the episodes. You threatened to leave then... but wait.. you're still here! Strange how that works. You've said you're done. What better way to start than leaving now and never looking back? Stop arguing with people for the sake of arguing, and put your money where your mouth is.

Adios, and watch out for that door...

-Harv-

The problem is not that the characters are not intelligent it's that you're not understanding why the characters react the way they do so you don't agree with it.
Hurley would NOT tell the others that he won the lottery with those numbers because (as it's been shown repeatedly) he has issues with people thinking that he is crazy and the one time he Does give in and tell one of them Jack doesn't see anything past the "mental institution" so no his character would Not continue to tell people so they would think he was insane. He's had one person believe him (Danielle) and that one is all he's willing to risk... especially after the Jack thing.
And as for Jack not getting answers from Desmond... he doesn't WANT answers from Desmond because he already "knows" what's going on and that's that Desmond is being experimented on by someone and is insane for just blindly following without asking more questions. Would Another person try to demand answers? Certainly, but Jack has issues with any type of faith (as it's been shown time after time) so he already knows all that he needs to know about Desmond.
Would I share the numbers if I was Hurley? Yes, but I don't have issues with being perceived as crazy like he does. Would I question Desmond a lot more if I was Jack? Certainly because I don't have issues with faith the way that he does. It wouldn't be true to their Specific Characters if they just reacted the way anyone else would.

Great explanation. Love it. I still wouldn't have let Desmond go regardless if I think he's an idiot for beliving a button will save the world.

EXCELLENT. That is what I am looking for. I can accept this, but being that he is so sleep deprived and at the end of his rope - I would think he would react by just holding a gun to desmond and demanding answers. He never asked the pivitol question "HOW THE HELL ARE WE HERE TOGETHER!!!???"Besides being emotionally torn about the whole thing, he DID ask Desmond a bunch of questions. Mostly about the island, but it might have been his only chance to find out what's really going on. But after the story Desmond tells him about how he got there, even though Jack doesn't believe it initially, did it ever occur to you that Jack figures Desmond doesn't know how the hell they both ended up there either?

If Jack was willing to chalk up Hurley's story about the numbers winning him the lottery AND being on the hatch as a "coincidence", then he can chalk up meeting a guy he saw a few years ago as a coincidence too.

But according to a former writer in rolling Stone your assumption that the writers do everything for a reason is not true. He states there is tons of backwriting and that there is no direction.

Im not saying that is gospel but interesting none the less.Then you need to track down Javi's response to it. He's since deleted it from his blog, but it's floating around somewhere. Javi basically blows away everything Fury claimed about the show.

vanzack

I was also very annoyed by tonights episode... but I don't think to the point where I'm going to stop watching the show. I don't watch very much TV anyway besides sports.

The only character who I thought acted from what in my opinion made sense was Jack. He was the only one that wanted answers....Locke was giving up crap and it showed, Jack was just looking so frustrated.

But Desmond, I mean, really, I don't understand what's so difficult about saying he recognized him. He was brought to tears because he remembered him, and the 'miracle' that happened to his wife. Was it because it brought back memories of his wife?

I hope he didn''t let Desmond just run off without a trace. That would be like killing Ethan off without getting explanations all over again.

My thoughts EXACTLY.

You would think that they would have learned from killing ethan that anything they could learn from anyone could be useful.

AND HERE IS A GUY WHO HAS BEEN THERE FOR YEARS IN A HATCH WITH LOTS OF QUESTIONS.

"Hey desmond, who provides your food?" "Hey desmond - how do you get rid of garbage / waste?" "Hey desmond - have you ever seen anyone else on the island?" "Hey desmond - we saw a polar bear - tell us more about that?" "Hey desmond - you inject yourself with crap - tell us about that?" "hey desmond - wheres the electricity coming from?"

I mean come on. They just let him run away??????

ok looky here vanzack. Your basing you opinion on the show on what you THINK SHOULD be correct. your basing your argument that the show is dead to you knwo based on your own interests, prejudices, and preferences. First of all, its what you want the show to be like and quite frankly its not what you want it to be like. All the things you said about how the characters would act, is how YOU would act, not how the actual characters would act. I'm gonna say that your wrong here mate. If you can't accept the fact that the show isn't what you want it to be, just skippy out of here mate.

Sorry to be a black rock to your white rock. But I am science and you are faith. I have no faith in the writers and you do. Im just looking for those of science to have a rational discussion with so if your feelings are hurt because I said a meany about the show then Im sorry - have a cookie and go to bed.
See now that's the problem...you just want to stir the pot. There are tons of people just like you..with that same character nature. They aren't happy unless people are paying attention to them and berating them.

I can see flaws with shows that I truly enjoy. For instance, I truly enjoyed Alias, but after the season premiere last week I don't think I will ever watch it again unless I feel the direction of the show has been changed and becomes true to the earlier seasons.

Your motivation has nothing to do with science and is purely ego driven. The points you have made have been discussed logically and proven to be well thought out plot and character progressions but you continue hoping that you will incite more wrath and furious discussion all directed at you.

Enjoy your cookie and sleep well. I hope that you find something that you can enjoy and excel at so that you can focus your abilities for your own benefit. Focusing all your energy on amassing hatred upon yourself is impressive, but what do you really get out of it.

IMO, this was a great episode. And here's why.

In this episode, our two, seemingly, leaders are tested and, I think, neither passed the test. That, to me, was what I enjoyed about this episode.

For instance, let's go back to what Locke and Jack have labeled themselves: Jack is a man of science and Locke is a man of faith. However, Locke is *dead set* on pushing that execute button. But, Jack - Jack has *faith* that not pushing the button will warrant no response. So, in this episode, it was Jack that was the man of faith and Locke that was the man of science.

I think this is - if all goes right - going to play heavily into this season.

And there was obviously something unspoken about Sarah in the moment between Desmond and Jack.

The way I see it, you have - what - four, five people who have been living on an island without any real similarities to the civilization they know. And suddenly, they're thrown a bit of what they had. It's a shock. And in very dire situations, people usually act on instinct during these situations until they are out said situation. That's when the realization creeps in. I can compare one instance with my own life being when I was in a car when a tornado touched down. My mother, in the car with me, said that I just looked at it, turned the car around, hit the accelerator and drove in the opposite direction. She said I did this as if it were an everyday occurance. And honestly? I can only remember the moment before and after. That more than explained, at least to me, their reaction to their surroundings inside the hatch.

My thoughts EXACTLY.

You would think that they would have learned from killing ethan that anything they could learn from anyone could be useful.

AND HERE IS A GUY WHO HAS BEEN THERE FOR YEARS IN A HATCH WITH LOTS OF QUESTIONS.

"Hey desmond, who provides your food?" "Hey desmond - how do you get rid of garbage / waste?" "Hey desmond - have you ever seen anyone else on the island?" "Hey desmond - we saw a polar bear - tell us more about that?" "Hey desmond - you inject yourself with crap - tell us about that?" "hey desmond - wheres the electricity coming from?"

I mean come on. They just let him run away??????

This is true. I was oh so frustrated that Jack or any of them did not hold a gun to his head and force him to answer these questions. Or at least, that Jack didn't even warn him about the Others on the island, just in case he wasn't aware of their presence. Other than that, I enjoyed today's episode very much.

Vanzack,

I completely agree that someone that doesn't share the same opinion as me has as much right as I have to post my enjoyment of this episode. You missed the point of my post entirely. You're one of those people that has to argue with anything and everything just for the sake of having an argument with someone. The point of my post was that you've been making these threats of no longer watching this show since last season when you weren't pleased with some of the episodes. You threatened to leave then... but wait.. you're still here! Strange how that works. You've said you're done. What better way to start than leaving now and never looking back? Stop arguing with people for the sake of arguing, and put your money where your mouth is.

Adios, and watch out for that door...

-Harv-

Sorry pal - but im not arguing anything. Not one thing.

And I wrote one thread last year. ONE!!

Thanks for letting me know that you are the sherriff around here but Im choosing to take my chances.

Sorry pal - but im not arguing anything. Not one thing.

And I wrote one thread last year. ONE!!

Thanks for letting me know that you are the sherriff around here but Im choosing to take my chances.

why do you bother responding?

Thx amber -

and those that do give good explanations for jack not pressing Desmond - wouldnt one of the others want to know:

"Hey desmond, who provides your food?" "Hey desmond - how do you get rid of garbage / waste?" "Hey desmond - have you ever seen anyone else on the island?" "Hey desmond - we saw a polar bear - tell us more about that?" "Hey desmond - you inject yourself with crap - tell us about that?" "hey desmond - wheres the electricity coming from?"

Jack wasnt the only one there. Kate could have manhandled Desmond like a schoolboy. Wouldnt anyone want to know these things?

I think they were more concerned about the numbers that were counting down, and getting the computer fixed so it wouldn't count down. It wasn't exactly time for show and tell, much as we all would have liked it to be!

Wouldnt anyone want to know these things?

In one episode? No. :smile:

The fact that the group just let Desmond leave when they had

1. No reason to let him go
2. Had the power to make him stay.
3. Had a HUGE interest in making him stay

Leaves me uneasy. Anyone care to comment? I just think you would see Jack or Locke or Kate say with a gun "you arent going anywhere until we get this computer fixed and we can sit down and talk" and make him sit there until everything was fixed.

Then have an interrogation.

It is totally illogical that they watched him get supplies and walk out the door.

"Hey desmond, who provides your food?" "Hey desmond - how do you get rid of garbage / waste?" "Hey desmond - have you ever seen anyone else on the island?" "Hey desmond - we saw a polar bear - tell us more about that?" "Hey desmond - you inject yourself with crap - tell us about that?" "hey desmond - wheres the electricity coming from?"
He already explained that he happened upon the island and was immediately brought into the hatch and convinced to stay there, sealed in and never leaving in all the time he's been there because he has to put in the code every hour and a half, and thinks the rest of the island is diseased.

If this story is true, did you really want a scene where Desmond gave the following answers?
"I don't know"
"I have a garbage disposal"
"No, just Kelvin"
"I don't know"
"They're just some vitamins"
"I don't know"

...because those are probably the only answers you'd get, making a scene like that needless. Besides, Jack asked him plenty of things. The film did explain a few things too, that a company called Dharma built the hatch as a research lab. With a full pantry of jars with Dharma logos on it, electricity, and running water, you can pretty much assume Dharma is responsible for all of that, so why even ask?

And as for letting him go instead of holding him at gunpoint, Jack's not exactly the type to take hostages. He already got enough flak for that when he and Sayid interrogated Sawyer.

Vanzack, I think more people would be open to discussion if you didn't end your post with, "I'm done with this show." Why would anyone engage in discussion/debate with someone who states they're no longer watching the show?

You set the "rules" for the thread and the posters are merely responding.

As far as the episode, I think you've received quite a few responses as to why this episode does show the characters acting consistently considering the situation they're in.

"Hey desmond, who provides your food?"

--The Hanso Foundation's Dharma Initiative. as answered in the film.

"Hey desmond - how do you get rid of garbage / waste?"

--Good question, I guess it never crossed their minds.

"Hey desmond - have you ever seen anyone else on the island?"

--He was dragged into the shelter right when he arrived like he told Jack.

"Hey desmond - we saw a polar bear - tell us more about that?"

-Part of the Hanso Foundations original project as detailed in the orientation film.

"Hey desmond - you inject yourself with crap - tell us about that?"

-No one saw him inject himself with anything let alone crap, but that would explain what happens to his waste.

"hey desmond - wheres the electricity coming from?"

-The habitat was created by the Hanso Foundation, who provided for the living conditions. Locke grilled him on the lighting in the second episode
.
Jack wasnt the only one there. Kate could have manhandled Desmond like a schoolboy. Wouldnt anyone want to know these things?"

Desmond was busy with trying to fix the computer and Kate volunteered to go get Sayid to help. The primary concern was fixing the computer to avoid the impending whatever/doom.

Vanzack, I think more people would be open to discussion if you didn't end your post with, "I'm done with this show." Why would anyone engage in discussion/debate with someone who states they're no longer watching the show?

You set the "rules" for the thread and the posters are merely responding.

As far as the episode, I think you've received quite a few responses as to why this episode does show the characters acting consistently considering the situation they're in.

Note taken.

I wish I could retract.

"Hey desmond, who provides your food?"

--The Hanso Foundation's Dharma Initiative. as answered in the film.

"Hey desmond - how do you get rid of garbage / waste?"

--Good question, I guess it never crossed their minds.

"Hey desmond - have you ever seen anyone else on the island?"

--He was dragged into the shelter right when he arrived like he told Jack.

"Hey desmond - we saw a polar bear - tell us more about that?"

-Part of the Hanso Foundations original project as detailed in the orientation film.

"Hey desmond - you inject yourself with crap - tell us about that?"

-No one saw him inject himself with anything let alone crap, but that would explain what happens to his waste.

"hey desmond - wheres the electricity coming from?"

-The habitat was created by the Hanso Foundation, who provided for the living conditions. Locke grilled him on the lighting in the second episode
.
Jack wasnt the only one there. Kate could have manhandled Desmond like a schoolboy. Wouldnt anyone want to know these things?"

Desmond was busy with trying to fix the computer and Kate volunteered to go get Sayid to help. The primary concern was fixing the computer to avoid the impending whatever/doom.

I have to respectfully disagree. There is so much more. He has a front door. Wouldnt you want to know 3 years of experience? I think writing all of that intelligence off is just not consistent with people who are clueless in their surroundings.

The fact that the group just let Desmond leave when they had

1. No reason to let him go
2. Had the power to make him stay.
3. Had a HUGE interest in making him stay

Leaves me uneasy. Anyone care to comment? I just think you would see Jack or Locke or Kate say with a gun "you arent going anywhere until we get this computer fixed and we can sit down and talk" and make him sit there until everything was fixed.

Then have an interrogation.

It is totally illogical that they watched him get supplies and walk out the door.

They panicked. Plus no one is helping Jack.

"hey desmond - wheres the electricity coming from?"

I think everyone, including myself, assumed that the hatch was outfitted with power generators that were probably powered by god knows what. I have no idea about electro magneticism so I don't know if that could handle power generators or not.

Desmond didn't seem to have too many answers himself. He had been, IMO, conned into believe that he had to stay in this hatch. In 2x02, he seemed genuinely surprised to find out that anyone was living outside the hatch.

I know I'm going to be ordering my copy of The Third Policeman, though!

I wouldn't be asking questions about how he gets rid of his garbage/waste.

I would want to know what he's saving the world from or whatever by pushing the button, and how Calvin/Kelvin died.

When he's running, I would be shouting, "Where the hell are you going?"
and he would reply:
"Brotha, I'm going to the other stations on this island so I can push more buttons and be crazy outta my mind! I'll race ya!"

everybodyhateshugo, even more good points.

I think what's frustrating about a show like tonight's is that the people aren't reacting the way you would react (or how you want the characters to react.) And, when they don't act the way you want them too; ie: asking Desmond more questions, not letting him flee the hatch, etc., you get frustrated.

Sometimes it really is the simplest answers; they were concerned with getting the computer fixed. Oh, and while Desmond did flee, Jack did go after him.

I'm not a Loyalist but You have to be tripping not to like or to be done with this show, Instead of trying to figure out things or act like you know the study of human behavior on an island in the middle of know where, why not just watch and enjoy and appreciate the show compared to some of the other crap that's on TV, open your mind to imagination, possiblity and creativity if your able

I have to respectfully disagree. There is so much more. He has a front door. Wouldnt you want to know 3 years of experience? I think writing all of that intelligence off is just not consistent with people who are clueless in their surroundings.
That is true, but they didn't have the luxury of time to sit back and deliberate on what intelligence they could gather from this guy. They were concerned with fixing the computer and stopping the countdown. One of the hindrances was that Jack and Locke were in conflict over what they wanted to do. Jack left Locke by himself, unarmed, with Desmond. Locke was trying to figure things out...Desmond got frustrated and scared and got the hell out of there.

Desmond didn't have that much information to give them. He was pretty much in the dark about everything except what was presented in the film...oh and he knows how to use that cool mirror device which I am sure Sayid will easily figure out how to use it if needed. He wasn't sure about the whole thing, he admitted that he doubted the whole business on a daily basis, but the fact that the fillings in his mouth hurt by the magnetic wall meant that at least some of what the film said was true.

Not to mention Desmond's masterful dart playing skills which will come in handy when they meet up with the Others. lol. From the description his life was sleep..key in the code..., relax, key in the code...sleep, wake up key in the code...work out...key in the code sleep. Not a lot of valuable experience there.

But really, three years of experience of what? Pushing a button? Desmond had nothing to offer beyond the film he told them to watch.

It's entirely possible that this may be addressed in future episodes too. Charlie might say, Why did Desmond flee? Why did you let him go? Etc.

I'm not a Loyalist but You have to be tripping not to like or to be done with this show, Instead of trying to figure out things or act like you know the study of human behavior on an island in the middle of know where, why not just watch and enjoy and appreciate the show compared to some of the other crap that's on TV, open your mind to imagination, possiblity and creativity if your able

This is not in my nature. I would sincerely like it to be - but its not.

I have to respectfully disagree. There is so much more. He has a front door. Wouldnt you want to know 3 years of experience? I think writing all of that intelligence off is just not consistent with people who are clueless in their surroundings.Experience with what? This guy has to be there at all times to put in a code roughly every hour and a half. Besides screwing up your sleep schedule, it doesn't leave a whole lot of time for island excursions, especially if you've been told there's a disease outside and the world will blow up if you don't keep putting in the code.

I called it in the first episode, Desmond is just a button-pusher and doesn't really know anything other than what he's been told.

I just don't really see your logic. You make it seem like Jack's first priority is asking him how they're both on the island together, and that it's out of character for him not to ask that first. Then you wonder why he didn't ask him about whether or not he has a garbage disposal? That'd be about the last thing I'd expect Jack to ask.

But really, three years of experience of what? Pushing a button? Desmond had nothing to offer beyond the film he told them to watch.

It's entirely possible that this may be addressed in future episodes too. Charlie might say, Why did Desmond flee? Why did you let him go? Etc.

Charlie will probably ask that question and Sawyer will bring up the point that they had a gun pointed to his head why didn't they get answers. Why? It's who those characters are and that is how they go about doing things. Charlie second guesses other people's decisions, but isn't able to do anything about it and Sawyer is a hot head who acts then thinks about it later.

WOW. Im really amazed at the amount of folks on here that just cant or wont engage in an intelligent discussion if it at all threatens their like of the show.
Really incredible.

That's a whole different ballgame. When you end a post with " Sorry, im done with this show." - it is not exactly inviting discussion. In fact, "THIS IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD BEHAVE. IT IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD COMMUNICATE". if they wanted to have an intelligent discussion - or any discussion at all. The majority of people here do enjoy discussing all aspects of the show - and not everyone agrees - but for someone to think that stating what was written in the original post would spark intelligent discussion -- that's just not going to start any discussion.

It really seems Kate has no clue what to believe.

And I've heard so many people say they're not watching anymore, yet next week, they're right back in front of the TV screen.

So... yeah.

Im sick of the people always complaining. Why dont you go make a TV show and have it live up to everyone's expectations. Ive said before....no matter what they end this show with...its never going to be able to compare to what people are expecting. Doesnt mean its not a great show. I mean i dont even think we've started to figure out whats really going on here....we've just got a taste.

That's a whole different ballgame. When you end a post with " Sorry, im done with this show." - it is not exactly inviting discussion. In fact, "THIS IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD BEHAVE. IT IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD COMMUNICATE". if they wanted to have an intelligent discussion - or any discussion at all. The majority of people here do enjoy discussing all aspects of the show - and not everyone agrees - but for someone to think that stating what was written in the original post would spark intelligent discussion -- that's just not going to start any discussion.

This point was already made several pages ago. He says he wishes he could retract the statement "I'm done with the show".

I don't look at it as people complaining so much as people questioning the behaviors of characters; that's not unusual at all. Unfortunately, the initial post came off as complaining rather than one looking for discussion. (The original poster acknowledged this though.)

Initial posts typically set the tone and "rules" for a thread. Something to always keep in mind when beginning a topic for discussion.

I think they let Desmond go because at that point, I think they all had the hope that sayid would be there soon to fix everything, and then the numbers would get pushed. The idea that something bad would happen if the numbers weren't pushed was so strong that they stayed and did not go after him.

And I do remember Jack getting mad and making him answer some questions before he got to work on the computer. I think Desmond got tired of answering those questions, so he referred them to the video. I wish he had answered some more questions, but there was so much going on for all the characters....

While I don't share your frustration with the show I am feeling something strange. Oddly it's similar to what is going on the show. I have felt disoriented since they went down the hatch. I had gotten used to the surroundings. The island, the jungle... hell even the monster. It's like I'm feeling a little of what Jack feels. He wants to keep everything status quo. "I'm going to fix you" "we'll be all right if we stick together". Now he's faced with this thing, this "miracle" if you will, and he doesn't know what to make of it. I'm feeling the same thing. "Lost is great - I love watching them survive. I hope this never changes. Can it get any better?" Suddenly I am in this 70's furnished underground dome and I feel, frankly, lost. I do, however, have the faith that the writers know what they are doing. I think jumping the shark is a bit strong... but they shot one.

As for the characters, I can only say this (and I'm sure this is going to get long)... Jack frustrates the hell out of me. He's all action and no thought. He seems to think that pointing a gun and anything that threatens him will protect him from unhappy truths. (My one real complaint about the show is that it's gotten a little gun crazy. Way too much gun waving, not enough drama. But that could easily go away.) Jack is completely lost right now. Just as he was starting to get his bearings on the island and figure out his place, the rules all changed. Remember what we have spent the last 3 weeks pondering his character has experienced in about an hour. He's at the edge.

Locke acted completely in accordance with his character. There wasn't a single move that he made in tonight's episode that was out of character. With the exception of realizing that the bigger leap of faith would be to let the counter run out.

Kate doesn't care who's right or wrong. She just flat out doesn't get involved in Jack and Locke's deep philosophical war. What is happening right now is all that matters. I'm tied up. I want some chocolate. Oh look guns. Hit that guy. On top of that she realized that the computer getting damaged was partly her fault. Shut up and get it fixed, we'll sort the rest out later. Again, nothing out of character for her.

Sayid stated the same feeling. This computer needs to get fixed or something bad could potentially happen. Fix it and sort the rest out later. If it ain't broke, don't fix it... if it is, I can. That's always been him.

As for Hurley, as frightened as he is, he's curious. He always has been. He has little or no concern for his own well being, he just wants to know what's going on. He doesn't care what happens, he just wants to know. That's why he went after Rousseau, went to the Black Rock to get dynamite and that's why he's in the hatch. As for not talking about the numbers... others on this thread have already stated why he said nothing.

As for not questioning Desmond further... where do you start? The minute Jack walked in everyting went down and Desmond went nuts. If you walked into a building and the first thing you see is some one in a panic running for the door screaming "Get out! Get out!" Do you stop them and say "Why are you here? How do you eat?" Do you ignore their panic and continue on? Of course not. Most anybody, regardless of who they are would feel an adrenaline surge and get caught up in running.

I don't think that any of this is lazy writing. Quite the opposite. The lazier thing would be to have an hour long interrogation of Desmond and allow the audience a huge, cathartic question answering session. The better writing focuses on the character interaction (and that scene between Jack and Locke at the end was brilliant) and walk the tightrope with the ongoing mystery. The thing that made Lost so good was the characters and who they were. The monster, the hatch... those are all catalysts for finding out who they are and finding the drama. If Lost was simply about a bunch of crazy shit on an island, it wouldn't be as good as it is. I wouldn't watch something that is simply flat characters standing around explaining the huge, complex backstory of the island and its secrets. To achieve that the writers need to give only what the audience needs to further the story AND bring them back next week. If they gave it all up in the next episode, that would be lazier. Knowing what's going on and holding back while still keeping the audience in the game is harder.

At least for me it's something that I find compelling every week. There may be a mis-step here and there, I'll admit. I think it's pretty obvious that you are looking for other things in Lost and honestly I don't think the writers and producers are going to give it to you. And there's no harm in simply walking away from something that doesn't make you happy. I think most everybody feels that way here. However, coming in and announcing that you are leaving will understandably irk some of the people who are having the time of their lives. You have to at least see why some people might get upset.

Me? I'm SO not done with this show.

With the exception of realizing that the bigger leap of faith would be to let the counter run out.

That was the really interesting thing for me about this episode. In this episode, Jack became the man of faith by wanting to see what the outcome would be by not pressing the button.

It was almost as if they switched for a moment and I'm intrigued by that and wonder if it will come up again. Are they going to tango until they begin fighting the other's battle? Or will they become a perfect synergy of science and faith?

I dunno, but this episode has completely fascinated me.

Imagine for a second that you are Jack.

Wouldnt the FIRST THING YOU DO, before you could conceive of doing anything else, is say to Desmond "How the hell did I meet you 4 years ago and now we are both here?"

And would Desmond upon realizing he has met Jack before be so blase about the whole thing?

I would think that this would be a show stopper - enough to put a shotgun in your mouth and blow it off - but both characters seem fine with not asking each other or finding out.

IS THAT HOW THEY WOULD ACT??
Why would Jack ask that? Jack is still fighting against fate. He's still in denial. He's not going to suddenly ask that. That would be out of character for him. It might be what you would ask, but not Jack. And, to me, it's only odd that they've met before because of all that we've seen. In reality, it's not odd that he bumps into Desmond. After all, not much on that island has happened according to our realities. I think you're trying to force characters to react as they would in normal conditions. Their lives are helter skelter and what might be a logical reaction in downtown Chicago would not be the logical reaction in downtown LOST island.

This eppy rocked! It had a lot of punches and kicks and a lot of teasing (which I love). It's getting better and better with every episode!

And Desmond got away!! Yay! :biggrin:

That was the really interesting thing for me about this episode. In this episode, Jack became the man of faith by wanting to see what the outcome would be by not pressing the button.

It was almost as if they switched for a moment and I'm intrigued by that and wonder if it will come up again. Are they going to tango until they begin fighting the other's battle? Or will they become a perfect synergy of science and faith?

I dunno, but this episode has completely fascinated me.
I loved this part, too! I'm thinking that this would be the ideal time for Locke and Jack to try harder to compromise. With the huge battle that's going on with the rafters and those savages (ooooh, I hate all of them! AnaLucia ... look out babe 'cause Sawyer's gonna' take you out ... and it ain't gonna' be to dinner! LOL), having a little more mellowness on this side would be a good balance. I don't think we can continue with Jack and Locke batteling and the rafters batteling. That would be too much.

I think the'll be some changes made ... :biggrin:

Imagine for a second that you are Jack.

Wouldnt the FIRST THING YOU DO, before you could conceive of doing anything else, is say to Desmond "How the hell did I meet you 4 years ago and now we are both here?"

And would Desmond upon realizing he has met Jack before be so blase about the whole thing?

I would think that this would be a show stopper - enough to put a shotgun in your mouth and blow it off - but both characters seem fine with not asking each other or finding out.

IS THAT HOW THEY WOULD ACT??

It's called fiction.

I love Lost but it seems we are getting some plot holes but with so much pressure on the show there are always going to people that say it does not live up to all the hype. That is life and its perfectly normal but to come on a forum where most people love it and you say its basically rubbish people are going to jump down your troat and you have to expect that.

vanzack.... you are just taking things too seriously.....

I remember reading one of matt roush´s "ask matt"-columns and one of the poster wrote that people always want reality from their series but then who the heck would want to watch jack bauer scraping up money for gas bill.... hey, when i watch television i want to escape the reality of my life and see some fantastic shows....

...and in a island with polar bears, nuthing would suprise me.... =)

Imagine for a second that you are Jack.

Wouldnt the FIRST THING YOU DO, before you could conceive of doing anything else, is say to Desmond "How the hell did I meet you 4 years ago and now we are both here?"



Not necessarily - we don't know the rest of Jack's backstory - it was obvious that it was extremely painful for Jack to look at Desmond. He had all sorts of emotions flooding him & was having problems dealing with it. (And it was 3 years ago per Desmond).

I have to say, one of my top five beefs with movies and television shows, is that characters almost never do or say what a normal person would do in a situation where doing or saying that something would be beneficial! But, I think that's pretty much every movie or show, not just LOST.

I too was irritated that Jack didn't pursue more of a "I KNOW you!" conversation with Desmond, but I chalked it up to his equally irritating defiance to anything Locke questions him about. Pretty much everything Locke suggested, Jack did the opposite- not watching the film a second time, not putting the gun down, etc. He demanded answers from Locke, but wouldn't answer any of Locke's questions with civil answers. I'm thinking this is something to do with his relationship with his own father- acting out against Locke, when that's what he really wanted to do with his dad. Or feeling guilty about his dad, and taking it out on Locke. On the other hand, we also still know very little about what happened with Jack, his "divorce" (if that's what really ended the marriage), and his father's death. So, maybe his defiance of Locke is really more a defiance of faith or believing in something you can't see.

As far as Sayid fixing the computer with nary a question- yeah, I thought that was dumb at first. But as my husband pointed out, Sayid also knows more than we have seen him tell others. He's heard the whispers, seen the cable on the beach, he was the one that first wanted to tramp through the jungle to fix the transievers (probably butchered that spelling)- so, out of any of them, he would likely assess the situation, see others freaking out, and think it best to get the situation under control- i.e., fix the computer- then figure out what in the world was going on. Hurley and Sayid both knew that the hatch existed, just not what was down there. So, it wasn't like a "where are you taking me?!" convo was neccessary.

And I think a lot of Hurley's negligence in sharing the importance of the numbers, will play out next week. On one hand, it doesn't seem very nice or thoughtful of him to keep a potentially dangerous or "unlucky" piece of knowledge to himself. But, then again- he doesn't know or really care about these people. The only reason they are even hanging out together, is because the alternative is fending for yourself.
Which is likely how all the people on the island feel- romantic pursuits included. Stick together for safety and comfort, but it's still every man for himself if need be.

If ever a show could be given a break for the characters not divulging what seems to be beneficial info, LOST would be the show. It isn't like they're related, or even best buddies. They are only together because they have to be. I doubt that any of them feel that they owe any of the others anything- much less an open window into their past.

Besides, I'm still not convinced that anything we see is real. I still believe that all the Losties might be participants in some sort of virtual reality computer program. After all, in a game you closely guard what you know in order to advance.

Originally Posted by vanzack http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/images/FuselageGreen/misc/backlink.gif (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=524740#524740)
I tried. I really tried to give this show a break. But it has jumped the shark.

We are in a hatch on an island and we find a guy with computers and washer dryers. We act totally normal. Wouldnt you be out of your mind? Wouldnt you be unable to function?

And then there is Hurley, jack, locke, kate, and sayid in the room. Hurley hasnt told anyone that the numbers he won the lottery with are on the hatch. He doesnt when they are all together and typing them in to the computer. They have a gun to Desmond at first- then just let him go away. He cant answer anything? Jack knows he has met desmond before but that is not paramount on his mind - he is not incredulous at this fact and doesnt tell anyone. Sayid fixes a computer without any explanation. They argue about doing the numbers in the computer when they could just do them and have 108 minutes to discuss it afterward.

And on and on and on and on. Its like a bad cartoon where the audience sees something right behind a character but everytime the character turns around it is gone.

THIS IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD BEHAVE. IT IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD COMMUNICATE.

These people are supposed to be smart but yet we are subjected to them acting like morons continuously.

Sorry, im done with this show.

I had very similar feelings. This was not up to the standard that LOST has been to date. I just got 3 people addicted to the show by watching the DVD's for the past week trying to catch up in time for last nights episode, and now I'm embarrassed. I have not given up on the show, not even close. I just hope last night was a fluke. All the points made in the previous post that I copied were very much what I was thinking about the episode. First of all, I hate the whole Hatch thing anyway, but can deal with it, but to have so much of the episode down there, and then not to have these people freaking out about all the elements mentioned is absurd! The food, the electronics, (and really, can a blown computer that's smoking be fixed with a power breaker????), the coincidence of knowing each other..... One minute they're about to kill each other, next they're having conversations about how to fix the computer? We're all gonna die? Didn't he just want to kill them a sec ago? Not enough disbelief on behalf of the characters. Not enough Island......I know next week is about Hurley, hope we get back on track ..... sorry my view is negative...hoping to change that.

(and really, can a blown computer that's smoking be fixed with a power breaker????),

Could be wrong, but I think they were looking for the power breaker so that the lights would come on, and the computer would have a power source- so that Sayid could try and fix it from there. If there is no power, you couldn't work on it in the first place. ;)

OK jet -what is a POSSIBLE - and I mean ANYTHING POSSIBLE - explanation for them behaving this way?

Just connect some of the dots for me. Please.

Let's see...you've survived a seemingly unsurvivable plane crash...you have already seen and heard many strange things for the past month and a half...now you are trying to make a plan how to evade these mysterious 'others'...you have some crusty crazy french woman haunting you...you've already been aware of some pre-crash connections between other persons on the island...

So given all that has ALREADY happened to these people, is finding a stupid hatch in the jungle that reveals a company doing experiments on the island REALLY all that 'put a shotgun in your mouth and pull the trigger' weird?

Can you say 'perspective'?

I've come to the realization that every week some people will absolutely love the episode and some people will absolutely hate the episode. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

Alius - also thanks for your insight. It is incredibly insightful. I have never felt so full of insight.

You ask for intelligent discussion and explanations, then you go and be all sarcastic?

Why?

First, Vanzac's message got lost in his delivery. The fact is, there are many questions about motivation in this episode, and it's correct to question the motivations of the characters.

As you may know from either my profile or posts I made in the get-to-know board, I'm a high school English teacher. I've shown LOST in my 11th grade English classes for the past year and a half. I do this to get students to critically evaluate modern culture for signs of literature. LOST generally has many standard literary elements, and especially characterization. We focus on this literary element in all episodes.

This week I'll be asking them to deduce why a character of their choice did or did not do something--what do they know about that character from previous episodes that helps them understand why a character behaves the way they do in this episode. So thanks all for the scattered but useful truly insightful comments on this board--it's the question my students will be addressing.

Now, my input into this argument, for what it's worth:

I'd prefer this episode have been called Leap Of Faith, because that's where it takes so many characters.

IMHO, Jack did not confront Desmond with their prior reunion and the apparent coincidence of their reunion because the memory of Sarah and its association with Desmond was so painful. Also, the character of Jack is primarily involved in safety--do no harm--and he has become so centrally focused on this that other conversations probably do not allow themselves daylight in his consciousness. Moreover, let's not forget, Jack still has his father's belief system instilled in him. As Sawyer said last season, and Jack said last night, if you beat something long enough it will begin to listen to you.

Which may make you believe that one of this show's central themes may be that this is a runaway psychological experiment.

When Jack confronts Desmond in the forest, and Desmond begins to remember their prior meeting, and Jack is holding his gun on Desmond, Jack refuses at first to join in Desmond in this conversation: "It doesn't matter." And do you recall last season in Tabula Rasa when Jack told Kate, "It doesn't matter. Three days ago we all died. Everyone gets a new start." Jack quite clearly is keeping his own past secret.

Is this so hard to believe? The creative team behind this show is great at showing us just little pieces of each character. I was just commenting yesterday to one of my classes that although we've had a lot of Jack's background, we really don't know much about HIS background. All we really know about what HE has done in his life is that his father emotionally beat him down, and he has doubts about his own competency. And that he turned his father in for incompetency. And that he was married to a woman he "cured." And that he ran into a guy in a stadium who he now sees in a subterranean chamber on a lost island in the Pacific.

All it takes is a leap of faith. There's more to Jack than we know. Like Holden Caulfield in Catcher In The Rye, we don't ever get the whole story in one lump.

If you want to flame, you won't get the intelligent discussion that will enlighten us all. This is a community of generally insightful LOST advocates. Let's keep it that way--sharing our theories and insights, rather than our anger.

Aside from the back story, I too think that this was a lazy show. Jack just turns weak knee's cause Locke aske him to push a button that he does not believe in? And Im the biggest Locke fan going...but brotha, this one was a stinker

The show last night gave me a real odd feeling...almost a "Truman Show" type experiment. The tail of the plane...they survived with seemingly no "miracles" within the group and turned into savages. The entire Desmond affair seemed Pavlovian by comparison...ring the bell and drool versus press this button or die.

Also Jack seemed to really switch his personality to one for all to all for one...he was so concerned with saving everyone all the time and once he was in that bunker..he turned into a total I'm for me type of thing when he left Locke alone. This is totally against the charector of Jack.

Why did he not pursue the Desmond connection?? Why was the pain of admitting he married Sarah so evident?? What connection does she have to all of this maddness??

Wow, DMCquickly, Thanks so much for your post. I hope to read a lot more from you.

I think the problem is some people are having a tough time transitioning for a all questions, no answers... to answers, but more questioned added type of show. Last year everything that happened brought up questions and we rarely got any answers. Now we are getting answers and those answers ask more questions. I've had a hard time believing some of the reactions that the castaways would have. Jack has bothered me the most. He seems to change his mind every 30 seconds. One minute he's pissed and holding a gun, the next hes got the gun down. I just keep reminding myself that they are in a situation that I haven't been in and under stress I haven't experienced so I really can't know.

Remember, Baileysdad.
Everything happens for a reason. :)

I agree with vanzack about the change of the character and what a person in our eyes would respond to the situation.
I also want to say that I do feel that people here at the fuselage should let other opinions out in the sunlight. Let their opinions be met with other opinions with the except of comments like "you don't belong here", "take your opinion somewhere else, poobag or "your opinion suck butt, like totally, dude".

Let's face it; even Lost is not a perfect show, even though some do think so.
It is a great show, but it does have human flaws in the writing or production process.

The behavior of the characters has struck me as odd on occasion (not just in this episode, but in others as well). But, I have never been stranded on an island, lost a brother, seen a man blown up, had my child stolen, etc. I would imagine "freaking out" is a mild way to describe my reaction.

My personal opinion regarding Jack is that his system is on overload. Within a month he has been in a plane crash, met a crazy French lady who said some weirdos are after them, some monster thing is in the woods, he's seen his dead father and then his father's empty coffin, found out someone on the plane actually met his father...the list goes on. Seeing someone on the island that he has actually met was just too much and he was in shock. I may not be right, but that was what I got out of it.

Also, in the pit, I had a gut feeling after watching Ana-Lucia's facial expressions and her probing questions that she had an agenda. Why the guys didn't see this until it was too late I'm not sure (for the sake of the story I guess).

I can completely relate to Van's frustration. I'm starting to have a nagging feeling, not because I dislike the show or where it is going, but because I have been enthralled with shows before (X-Files/Twin Peaks) and both shows just went down the toilet. I sincerely hope that this one doesn't. Overall I love the show. I think my not dissecting it as many fans do keeps me from getting to annoyed when small details are screwed up (continuity errors, etc).

As a side note, Vanzack has a right to express his opinion. Continually bashing him or responding to his insults isn't going to help the situation. It will just add fuel to the fire. We saw a similar situation last week after that episode, please don't let this evolve into a similar situation.

Great answer Jenn and Thanks.

But according to a former writer in rolling Stone your assumption that the writers do everything for a reason is not true. He states there is tons of backwriting and that there is no direction.

Im not saying that is gospel but interesting none the less.

Thanks again

I guess after next Wednesday's episode we won't see you post about how bad you think the show is since you aren't watching the show anymore?

Not saying that you not posting is gospel but it will be interesting to see if you do none the less. :biggrin:

Vanzack, actually, I clearly see your point. I'm NOT giving up on the show, but I do take it for a show.... not Reality TV... for once. Yes, I was wondering the same things you were. Realistically, if I were Jack, I'd be like... hey, wait a minute, I remember you from... but then again, despite that vague recognition, he was dealing with someone who is still pretty much a stranger WITH a gun, so perhaps the whole GUN/STRANGER thing takes precidence over the recognition thing. But again, this isn't REALITY tv, so I'll give the writers a few grains of salt.

I'm not giving up on it too, because eventually the writers DO ask the same questions that we do... and so far they've always given aswers, just not as quickly as we'd often like them to. So Vanzack... turn the channel if you want to... or just be patient like the rest of the LOST FANs.

I thought this episode provided a lot more "meat" than we usually get. A lot more explanations for things.

Of course since it is LOST the answers or insights lead to MORE questions that need to be answered.

But for example now we know who Helen was and that the girl on the phone was not Helen but a paid representation of Helen. So what happened to Helen? did she die or give up trying to keep him away from that place? (Dont want to use spoilers).

See answers lead to questions.

Writing for television is not like writing a novel. You have to keep the story flowing. If you get too bogged down in explanations the show literally..stops. I don't mean in the sense of 'don't give us too many answers too quickly', I mean as in the flow of creativity will dry up.

There is something so gut wrenching and painful about Jack's memory of Sarah..something that seeing Desmond brought it close to the surface again. I think it was there from the first and Jack was during this whole ordeal trying to suppress THAT. No questions about this or that or why not that about Desmnd and the hatch..it was something about Sarah that was trying to come to the surface that he was trying to push down all the while he was dealing with another loon on the island. It came out visibly as a conflict because internally it was a conflict. Jack was not expecting to have to deal with his innermost hurts while having at the same time to deal with the real time things going on. I honestly don't know a lot of people who can pull that off.

Now, this should have been your first post ... or at least this tone should have been in your first post.

You post all the faults you find in the episode and that you're not going to watch the show anymore and then you get upset when people come back to say they don't care? Nothing in your first post elicited any compassion or desire to sway you. By your own admission, you had already thrown in the towel. Yet you are still here. Why?

While we, the "loyalists" don't want anyone to not like LOST, we are also not going to try and turn someone around that has said, in their first post, that they're not going to watch the show anymore. Why bother? It's your mind and you had obviously made it up ... though not quite as "obviously" as you led us to believe. It's posts like yours that incite the arguments and the call to action that we loyalist will automatically do. Did you hope to have a thread of tons of people echoing your opinion? Here? On the 'Lage? Not going to happen. By saying that you're done and yet remaining to counter other posts, you only look like you are trying to cause a division in the fans. If you truly want to be swayed, educated or shown the error of your views, all one needs to do is read through the posts on the board to find why so many here believe in this show and trust the writers to know the characters better than we do.

But posting that you're done with the show and yet sticking around to express your dismay in the negative reactions is just pointless. If you're done, then be done, let go and move on.

Have a nice life, bruhtha!

I think the problem is some people are having a tough time transitioning for a all questions, no answers... to answers, but more questioned added type of show. Last year everything that happened brought up questions and we rarely got any answers. Now we are getting answers and those answers ask more questions.

No that isn't the problem. I'm pretty satisfied with the answers we're getting. Not surprises, but after a year of speculation hardly anything could be a suprise.

THIS is the problem:

I've had a hard time believing some of the reactions that the castaways would have. Jack has bothered me the most. He seems to change his mind every 30 seconds. One minute he's pissed and holding a gun, the next hes got the gun down. I just keep reminding myself that they are in a situation that I haven't been in and under stress I haven't experienced so I really can't know.

And it's not merely Jack. It's everyone (witness Sawyer and "Mike" on the raft last week). As the OP said, they don't react the way real people react. AT ALL. They react inorganically, automatically (as in: unthinking automatons), in ways needed to serve the plot. Last week S&M are lost miles out to sea, literally up the creek without a raft, being attacked by a SHARK. Jin is dead. Do they care? Do they care that they're almost certainly going to die? No, they squabble like two kids in kindergarten.

This week, Locke pulls his ridiculous power play, and Hurley, Sayid, and Kate just sit around and LET Jack and Locke argue for five minutes (LITERALLY!) about whether or not to risk the world ending. I was sick of it; why weren't they? Why didn't Sayid just press the button and say, "Okay, now you can argue for another hour and a half." At the very least, Hurley should have been shouting, "DUDE! just press the frigging button."

It's ridiculous. RIDICULOUS. It's contrived, artificial, and worst of all--BORING.

I wish I could stop hoping this show wouldn't suck...but every episode seems determined to help me along with that.

There is something so gut wrenching and painful about Jack's memory of Sarah..something that seeing Desmond brought it close to the surface again. I think it was there from the first and Jack was during this whole ordeal trying to suppress THAT. No questions about this or that or why not that about Desmnd and the hatch..it was something about Sarah that was trying to come to the surface that he was trying to push down all the while he was dealing with another loon on the island. It came out visibly as a conflict because internally it was a conflict. Jack was not expecting to have to deal with his innermost hurts while having at the same time to deal with the real time things going on. I honestly don't know a lot of people who can pull that off.

I thought the same thing. The pain in his face and his reaction makes me think Sarah died.

Writing for television is not like writing a novel. You have to keep the story flowing. If you get too bogged down in explanations the show literally..stops. I don't mean in the sense of 'don't give us too many answers too quickly', I mean as in the flow of creativity will dry up.

There is something so gut wrenching and painful about Jack's memory of Sarah..something that seeing Desmond brought it close to the surface again. I think it was there from the first and Jack was during this whole ordeal trying to suppress THAT. No questions about this or that or why not that about Desmnd and the hatch..it was something about Sarah that was trying to come to the surface that he was trying to push down all the while he was dealing with another loon on the island. It came out visibly as a conflict because internally it was a conflict. Jack was not expecting to have to deal with his innermost hurts while having at the same time to deal with the real time things going on. I honestly don't know a lot of people who can pull that off.

*claps* Nicely written!

Look, I realize that there are loyalists who cant think about anything other than how good the show is.

No problem. Dont read. But I am sharing because I know there are people who are frustrated just like me. People who feel that any good writing needs to rely on the consistency of character development and not random unexplained behavior.

If you love this show no matter what this thread is not for you.

There are other ways of writing effective fiction besides focusing on realistic character development. But in any case, I'm not prepared to concede that these characters are unrealistic. Human nature acts as a constraint of sorts, but it is a very broad constraint and within its bounds a vast diversity of personalities are possible. Given how profoundly odd the situation is, I don't see Jack's reaction to Desmond (to take an example) as absurd. It seems perfectly plausible to me that Jack would keep quiet about his earlier encounter with Desmond for fear that revealing it would seem to implicate him in the strange goings-on.

Does anyone have anything to say to the content of my message?

There have been 10 replies but nothing content oriented.
Huh? Are you reading the same thread that I am? My first post to yours was an explanation of how Jack reacted in character. Maybe you should re-read the replies.

The season 2 started ok, but quickly falls back to the problems in season 1. Booring... loong wait for nothing.

I´m also finished with this show. I rather look at Teletubbies... the weird thing is, that Teletubbies actually makes more sense.

Don´t flame! And don´t badmouth Teletubbies... or me... or anyone else for that matter. Behave ppl!

There is something so gut wrenching and painful about Jack's memory of Sarah..something that seeing Desmond brought it close to the surface again. I think it was there from the first and Jack was during this whole ordeal trying to suppress THAT. No questions about this or that or why not that about Desmnd and the hatch..it was something about Sarah that was trying to come to the surface that he was trying to push down all the while he was dealing with another loon on the island. It came out visibly as a conflict because internally it was a conflict. Jack was not expecting to have to deal with his innermost hurts while having at the same time to deal with the real time things going on. I honestly don't know a lot of people who can pull that off.
I totally agree, elf! I could just hear Jack finally blurting out ... "What happened? She died!" He had a hard time accepting faith and then, with Sarah being cured, it began to accept faith into his heart and then, [if] she dies ... all that faith has been destroyed and he becomes the bitter man we see, one not wanting to believe for fear of it being dashed from him again. His reactions were spot on!

Dangerdork - cant wait to hear what you have to say.

I ask one question. Hurley knows the numbers and their significance. He won the lottery with them. He made a quest before getting on the plane to find out their significance.

Then he sees them on the hatch. Then he sees them entered in to the computer. Being that you are trying to survive TOGETHER on an island - isnt this information something you would share?

Sure. Except when Hurley broached the lottery subject with Jack earlier, Jack treated him like a lunatic and Hurley clammed up. I think it is in keeping with Hurley character that he follow the group, keep quiet, and try to solve the mystery of the numbers on his own.

Vanzack--sorry about the undeserved flaming. Last season, I had some of the same concerns about irrational behavior that you did.

I think Desmond thought he was going to die. So running away was his longshot at survival. I think he was willing to bluff that Jack wouldn't shoot him and if he did, he's going to die anyway when the clock counts down.

Imagine for a second that you are Jack.

Wouldnt the FIRST THING YOU DO, before you could conceive of doing anything else, is say to Desmond "How the hell did I meet you 4 years ago and now we are both here?"

And would Desmond upon realizing he has met Jack before be so blase about the whole thing?

I would think that this would be a show stopper - enough to put a shotgun in your mouth and blow it off - but both characters seem fine with not asking each other or finding out.

IS THAT HOW THEY WOULD ACT??

Um, sorry to burst your bubble, but this is not a REALITY show. This is a work of fiction and the actions of the characters serve to progress the story. This entire program is based on an unrealistic premise! I mean, dude, you've been watching a show that is centered around a large group of people who have survived a catastrophic plane crash and are living on a tropical island that has a POLAR bear on it and comes complete with strange whispers, visions, bad numbers, etc. and your just NOW realizing it's just a tad on the fantastical side? I mean, NONE of it is realistic. If realism is what you're looking for, Survivor is on tonight at 8, 7 central. :smile:

I tried. I really tried to give this show a break. But it has jumped the shark.

We are in a hatch on an island and we find a guy with computers and washer dryers. We act totally normal. Wouldnt you be out of your mind? Wouldnt you be unable to function?

And then there is Hurley, jack, locke, kate, and sayid in the room. Hurley hasnt told anyone that the numbers he won the lottery with are on the hatch. He doesnt when they are all together and typing them in to the computer. They have a gun to Desmond at first- then just let him go away. He cant answer anything? Jack knows he has met desmond before but that is not paramount on his mind - he is not incredulous at this fact and doesnt tell anyone. Sayid fixes a computer without any explanation. They argue about doing the numbers in the computer when they could just do them and have 108 minutes to discuss it afterward.

And on and on and on and on. Its like a bad cartoon where the audience sees something right behind a character but everytime the character turns around it is gone.

THIS IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD BEHAVE. IT IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD COMMUNICATE.

These people are supposed to be smart but yet we are subjected to them acting like morons continuously.

Sorry, im done with this show.

I have to agree about the computer. I mean it blows up and knocks out the power. All of a sudden sayid comes along and fixes it in a jiff. That was pretty silly. I think he just said something about removing the hard drive and putting in a new one. Oh ya, thats all that was needed lol

And he just happened across one? FANTASTICAL

Still love the show though

Sure. Except when Hurley broached the lottery subject with Jack earlier, Jack treated him like a lunatic and Hurley clammed up. I think it is in keeping with Hurley character that he follow the group, keep quiet, and try to solve the mystery of the numbers on his own.

Vanzack--sorry about the undeserved flaming. Last season, I had some of the same concerns about irrational behavior that you did.

I agree.

Let's see. There is a loon babbling about a the world ending if a code isn't entered.

That would be a REAL good time to pipe up..'Oh by the way guys..those numbers are bad luck!"

Jack had enough on his mind without THAT coming from someone who had just admitted he had been in a mental hospital.

I thought the same thing. The pain in his face and his reaction makes me think Sarah died.

I've thought that before, but now I'm thinking maybe she left him? Well, that's what I'm thinking for now, that's bound to change.

J.J. was on our local radio show a few weeks back and he addressed the article and the writer who said they had no direction. He said that writer was NOT asked back because he was not apart of the inner circle of ideas and direction of the plot and or plot twists and not well liked by the main writers and he is angry. He also said they have written the cliff hanger for this season and worked backward. At that point he said episode 2.9 was already written and we were all in for a major suprise. Everything he aluded to about the last two weeks have proven out in a sense.

This is what makes compelling storytelling...by going off in a direction the major fan base do not understand is a perfect way to get us all that much more enamored with what they are going to do. Did I feel empty last night? Yes...but there is a purpose this show was written this way. You don't win awards for writting to suddenly lose direction and purpose after three weeks.

Not to get off track...but did anyone else see Locke's dad in that "Orientation" film??

Not to get off track...but did anyone else see Locke's dad in that "Orientation" film??

Hum? I missed that. I was so focused on what they were saying that I missed the details.
Which is one of the (many) reasons why I was so frustrated with last night's episode.

A suggestion for this season's DVD's: include a bonus disc with the Orientation film on it.

I didn't like this epi. I'm getting tired of Lost being turned into the Jack and Locke Show. I like the characters, but enough already.

Its not so much that I want answers.

Its that I want an intelligent show with any answers.

The characters are not intelligent and do not behave according to their own personas - and this is lazy writing.

Most humans are "not intelligent" under stress and act oddly when outside of their comfort zone. Environment alters perception, which in turn alters behaviour. If they always acted the way we expected, the show would get very boring, very quickly. Besides, this isn't Reality TV, it's escapism. If I wanted intelligent answers to real questions, I would watch National Geographic.

Okay Vanzack let's get a grip here. You have every right to express you're opinion, anywhere (you don't have to go on the haters board). But are you really gonna write off the show just like that? Please say it ain't so. Anyway, I agree with you that it's completely frustrating to see character react and act differently to how we would react, and to seemingly simple/not so simple situations. But--would you entertain the idea that maybe where they're at- the island(if it is an island) is effecting them in someway, shape, or form?

Lastly, I think the show would be soo predictable if the characters did everything the audience assumed. I don't know just my thoughts.

I wanted to start a thread like this, but am very happy someone has already created one.

I am a lost fan, I love the boards, the viewers who watch the show AND post theories or talk about the show are seeming very intelligent and articulate.

With that being said, I am completely dumbfounded. Please hear me out.

First of all, I think that Jack most likely couldn't handle being a "savior" in the marriage with Sarah, I think perhaps her health detiorated during the marriage, and that he was unable to handle it. Hence the writers creating the scene where Jack looks down at Sarah's ex-fiance like he is a piece of scum. Perhaps when the tables were turned and he may have had to be the one to take care of her, he couldn't.

That is my take. If it was a simple divorce, where she thought he was great, he thought he was great, and couldn't live up to the expectations, then I can't see someone completely breaking down while trying to get some answers from a guy who he 2 minutes ago found in a hatch that is telling him the world will end. Even if he thought Desmond played a part in making him have faith, and that faith ruining his life by him feeling he had to marry Sarah, wouldn't explain why he comeplete breaks down.

Jack seems cold and stoic at time, and he just lost it when talking to Desmond. He completely discounts anything anyone tells him (like hurley with the numbers and locke with the island secrets). But gets emotional over something he can't change, while having the chance to get answers from Desmond.

Also, a sadistic company who could possibly be performing experiments on people who haven't explicitly signed up, that is what is 2005 we call terrorism.

I know that is a word that is not like at this point in time. What are the writers thinking!?! Hello, here are the definitions and some interesting tidbits... Have some intersiting tidbits of your own? Then please PM me or write them here.

Terrorism: the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=11&oi=define&q=http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dterrorism)


Acts of terrorism can be carried out by individuals or groups. According to some definitions, clandestine or semi-clandestine state actors may also carry out terrorist acts outside the framework of a state of war. The most common image of terrorism is that it is carried out by small and secretive cells, highly motivated to serve a particular cause. However, some acts have been committed by individuals acting alone, while others are alleged to have the backing of established states.

Cognitive science is a large field, and it contains many sub-fields. However, it should be recognized that cognitive science is not equally concerned with every topic which might bear on the nature and operation of the mind or intelligence. Social and cultural factors, emotion, consciousness, animal cognition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cognition), comparative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_psychology) and evolutionary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology) approaches are frequently de-emphasized or excluded outright, often on the basis of key philosophical conflicts. Some within the cognitive science community, however, consider these to be vital topics, and advocate the importance of investigating them.
Some of the prominent areas of research in cognitive science include:

Cognitive science has much to its credit. Among other accomplishments, it has given rise to models of human cognitive bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias) and risk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk) perception, and has been influential in the development of behavioral finance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_finance), part of economics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics). It has also given rise to a new theory of the philosophy of mathematics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics), and many theories of artificial intelligence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence), persuasion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasion) and coercion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercion). It has made its presence firmly known in philosophy of language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_language) and epistemology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology) - a modern revival of rationalism - as well as constituting a substantial wing of modern linguistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistics).
Discovery of systemic human cognitive bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias), usually credited to Amos Tversky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_Tversky) and Daniel Kahneman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman), 1967. Basis of behavioral finance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_finance).
Assertion of equivalence of Euler's identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_identity) (basis of complex analysis in mathematics) with basic cognitive processes, George Lakoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lakoff) and Rafael E. Núñez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_E._N%C3%BA%C3%B1ez), 2000. Basis of the cognitive science of mathematics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_science_of_mathematics).

Cognitive science of mathematics

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.


The cognitive science of mathematics is the study of mathematical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics) ideas using the techniques of cognitive science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_science). Specifically, it is the search for foundations of mathematics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_mathematics) in human cognition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognition).
This approach was long preceded by the study, in cognitive sciences proper, of human cognitive bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias), especially in statistical thinking, most notably by Amos Tversky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_Tversky) and Daniel Kahneman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman), including theories of measurement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement), risk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk) and behavioral finance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_finance) from these and other authors. These studies suggested that mathematical practice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_practice) and perhaps even mathematics proper had little direct relevance to how people think about mathematical concepts. It seemed useful to ask where, if not from intuition, formal mathematics came from.
One central claim that justifies a cognitive science of mathematics is that Euler's Identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_Identity) reflects a cognitive structure unique to humans, or less specifically to a narrow range of beings similar to humans, e.g. hominids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominid). This claim may or may not be necessary or central to the overall study of the subject, and there are other approaches that might come to be included as part of the study of the relationship between human cognition and formal modern mathematics.
The most accessible, famous, and infamous book on the subject is Where Mathematics Comes From (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_Mathematics_Comes_From) (George Lakoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lakoff), Rafael E. Núñez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_E._N%C3%BA%C3%B1ez), 2000).

Does anyone have anything to say to the content of my message?

There have been 10 replies but nothing content oriented.

The average newspaper is written at the sixth grade level. Even if it is critically considered 'intelligent', relatively speaking that is, what do you expect from a prime time tv show? With all due respect to your opinions, either get over it or go read a book.

I think the guy Hurley heard muttering the numbers in the mental institution was someone who was on the island in the hatch and had finished their tour. The isolation or something on the island drove them crazy so that's why they were in the institution.

I tried. I really tried to give this show a break. But it has jumped the shark.

We are in a hatch on an island and we find a guy with computers and washer dryers. We act totally normal. Wouldnt you be out of your mind? Wouldnt you be unable to function?

And then there is Hurley, jack, locke, kate, and sayid in the room. Hurley hasnt told anyone that the numbers he won the lottery with are on the hatch. He doesnt when they are all together and typing them in to the computer. They have a gun to Desmond at first- then just let him go away. He cant answer anything? Jack knows he has met desmond before but that is not paramount on his mind - he is not incredulous at this fact and doesnt tell anyone. Sayid fixes a computer without any explanation. They argue about doing the numbers in the computer when they could just do them and have 108 minutes to discuss it afterward.

And on and on and on and on. Its like a bad cartoon where the audience sees something right behind a character but everytime the character turns around it is gone.

THIS IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD BEHAVE. IT IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD COMMUNICATE.

These people are supposed to be smart but yet we are subjected to them acting like morons continuously.

Sorry, im done with this show.

I disagree!! I liked it!!

Not to get off track...but did anyone else see Locke's dad in that "Orientation" film??

No, but other people caught it. Check out the Orientation film thread. More discussion on that there.

Imagine for a second that you are Jack.

Wouldnt the FIRST THING YOU DO, before you could conceive of doing anything else, is say to Desmond "How the hell did I meet you 4 years ago and now we are both here?"

And would Desmond upon realizing he has met Jack before be so blase about the whole thing?

I would think that this would be a show stopper - enough to put a shotgun in your mouth and blow it off - but both characters seem fine with not asking each other or finding out.

IS THAT HOW THEY WOULD ACT??

I think both Jack and Desmond's brains were "fried" at that moment. Jack's pushing the button was just the end result of some major revelations that have shaken the very core of his belief system. I also think he is suffering post traumatic shock syndrome and is physically and mentally been pushed to the limit. I don't think Desmond was being blase at all.... he was in survival mode. When you're in survival mode, all of your energies are focused in that direction. Later in the jungle, Desmond attempted to find some answers regarding their past meeting, but Jack was scared sh**less to fiind the answers to questions he might not even be able to face at that point. Too many strange things, surviviing a plane crash that he (as a doctor) knows better than anyoone that NO one should have survived, seeing his dead father, the odds of meeting up with some guy he met in a stadium years before just prior to his future wife's "miracle" recovery.... and more.
-NOTPURGATORY

i think that poster vanzack has jumped the shark. in my opinion he's just not acting in a way that rational posters would act when confronted with these types of situations. in my opinion, it's just bad writing. i mean, who could possibly summon up all of the energy to rant on and on about a show he supposedly "hates"? i mean, what kind of a job would a person like that have to have in real life to be able to post that many times like that? i remember the good old days in the beginning of vanzack when you could depend on some good solid entertainment and escapism from reading his posts. dissapointing. i guess i'll just have to read more or dangerdorks posts. he doesn't seem to show any signs of jumping the shark anytime soon.

Its so funny - if you post something that is in dissent to the popular opinion here you are told to go to a hater board?
What?
Ever hear of thinking? How about a discussion?
Go to a hater board and let you drink the Kool Aid. No problem.
If you don't like the show then why waste your time posting that to people who DO clearly like it? If you have a problem with a theory or storyline, then fine. But to say you just don't like the show seems argumentative.
Seems awfully trolllike to me.

I tried. I really tried to give this show a break. But it has jumped the shark.

We are in a hatch on an island and we find a guy with computers and washer dryers. We act totally normal. Wouldnt you be out of your mind? Wouldnt you be unable to function?

And then there is Hurley, jack, locke, kate, and sayid in the room. Hurley hasnt told anyone that the numbers he won the lottery with are on the hatch. He doesnt when they are all together and typing them in to the computer. They have a gun to Desmond at first- then just let him go away. He cant answer anything? Jack knows he has met desmond before but that is not paramount on his mind - he is not incredulous at this fact and doesnt tell anyone. Sayid fixes a computer without any explanation. They argue about doing the numbers in the computer when they could just do them and have 108 minutes to discuss it afterward.

And on and on and on and on. Its like a bad cartoon where the audience sees something right behind a character but everytime the character turns around it is gone.

THIS IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD BEHAVE. IT IS NOT HOW PEOPLE WOULD COMMUNICATE.

These people are supposed to be smart but yet we are subjected to them acting like morons continuously.

Sorry, im done with this show.


I'm not "done" but I'm getting worried. I love this show and want to continue loving it. It was my new "Buffy". This review pretty much sums up how I reacted to last night's episode.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/commentary/0,6115,1114570_3_0_,00.html

i think that poster vanzack has jumped the shark. in my opinion he's just not acting in a way that rational posters would act when confronted with these types of situations. in my opinion, it's just bad writing. i mean, who could possibly summon up all of the energy to rant on and on about a show he supposedly "hates"? i mean, what kind of a job would a person like that have to have in real life to be able to post that many times like that? i remember the good old days in the beginning of vanzack when you could depend on some good solid entertainment and escapism from reading his posts. dissapointing. i guess i'll just have to read more or dangerdorks posts. he doesn't seem to show any signs of jumping the shark anytime soon.

bigyellowdogs I just had to come out of lurking to say that was the funniest thing I have read in a while, here or anywhere. good for you!

Which may make you believe that one of this show's central themes may be that this is a runaway psychological experiment.

Outstanding post, Dmcquickly, I very much enjoyed your analysis. I snipped the above quote because last night's episode has convinced me that a psychological experiment is responsible for what the lostaways are experiencing. I think Jack has it exactly right when he says, "this isn't real." Each character seems to be confronting either their own flaws or past mistakes they have made (or both) and through this experience on the island are being given the chance to deal with those flaws. What I don't know is how all the lostaways have come to be a part of such an experiment but the more I see, the more convinced I become that this whole thing is indeed psychological.

Sorry, im done with this show.Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you.

bigyellowdogs I just had to come out of lurking to say that was the funniest thing I have read in a while, here or anywhere. good for you!

anytime.

Also, a sadistic company who could possibly be performing experiments on people who haven't explicitly signed up, that is what is 2005 we call terrorism.


Mmmmm....don't thinks so. Try human rights violation. Such as when the US allowed medical experiments on federal prisoners from the 40's up to the 70's.


Anyways (jumping back to the topic of Lost) at least this show is better than reality TV.

Uh, Vanzack - You invited this backlash with your wording my friend. It's one thing to not be happy with the direction, but to say your finished with it implies, well, that you finished with it. I think what you meant to say is that you aren't happy with the direction of the show but will continue to watch and post in the hopes that it will get back to form and gain your interest once more. When you said that you were done with the show, I think some people actually believed you.

Its so funny - if you post something that is in dissent to the popular opinion here you are told to go to a hater board?

What?
Ever hear of thinking? How about a discussion?
Go to a hater board and let you drink the Kool Aid. No problem.

A lot of people take this stance because there have been so many of these post it gets a bit tiresome after a while.
I have found that most of these posted for one reason or another try to start an argument and or piss people off. If you don't like it fine, We do and most of us are just bored to tears buy post that go "I hate this show" "I think it should give us more info" ect. ect. We love it just the way it is.
I suspect that after the 50th similar post that many, who love the show, feel the same way.

J.J. was on our local radio show a few weeks back and he addressed the article and the writer who said they had no direction. He said that writer was NOT asked back because he was not apart of the inner circle of ideas and direction of the plot and or plot twists and not well liked by the main writers and he is angry. He also said they have written the cliff hanger for this season and worked backward. At that point he said episode 2.9 was already written and we were all in for a major suprise. Everything he aluded to about the last two weeks have proven out in a sense.

Well, what was JJ supposed to say? "Yes, it's true that we've been lying through our teeth for the past year and that we did so because we have nothing but contempt for our audience"?

Uh, probably not.

I think it's very likely that the writers had and have a plan in place. But it's equally possible that they are making up most of the details as they go along--and the filler is, IMO, glaringly obvious. The Black Rock reveal in Ex1, for example, was excellent, and clearly had been planned for most of the season, dating back to the mention in the title. But SHOULD it have taken 24 episodes to get there? NO. Many of those episodes were what poet Kenneth Koch called "white turnip filler." And much of the last three eps have been white turnip.

This is what makes compelling storytelling...by going off in a direction the major fan base do not understand is a perfect way to get us all that much more enamored with what they are going to do. Did I feel empty last night? Yes...but there is a purpose this show was written this way. You don't win awards for writting to suddenly lose direction and purpose after three weeks.

Compelling storytelling leaves the audience feeling empty? If you insist.

There are shocking changes of direction, and then there are pointless digressions. I know which make me more enamoured of the show, and which make me feel empty, and they are NOT the same thing.

think that poster vanzack has jumped the shark. in my opinion he's just not acting in a way that rational posters would act when confronted with these types of situations. in my opinion, it's just bad writing. i mean, who could possibly summon up all of the energy to rant on and on about a show he supposedly "hates"? i mean, what kind of a job would a person like that have to have in real life to be able to post that many times like that? i remember the good old days in the beginning of vanzack when you could depend on some good solid entertainment and escapism from reading his posts. dissapointing. i guess i'll just have to read more or dangerdorks posts. he doesn't seem to show any signs of jumping the shark anytime soon.

Charming. Debate the post, not the poster.

Maybe it is just me, but it seemed like Jack was having a breakdown last night. So I'm not surprised that he didn't tell anyone that he'd met Desmond. You have to consider that there is so much going on right now, that every law the survivors have become aqainted with on this island in the last 40 days has suddenly been proven false! I truly think they are all reeling and to me, the amount of conversation (or lack of) is very realistic. Have you ever been in a socking situation...a truly freaky incident? Logic does not come readily. When your system is under that much stress (and in the case of the survivors - has been for 40 days) you don't think. You don't communicate.

Personally, I think season 2 is twice as good as season 1 - which really just feels like an extended exposition to me now.

Well, what was JJ supposed to say? "Yes, it's true that we've been lying through our teeth for the past year and that we did so because we have nothing but contempt for our audience"?

Uh, probably not.

I think it's very likely that the writers had and have a plan in place. But it's equally possible that they are making up most of the details as they go along--and the filler is, IMO, glaringly obvious. The Black Rock reveal in Ex1, for example, was excellent, and clearly had been planned for most of the season, dating back to the mention in the title. But SHOULD it have taken 24 episodes to get there? NO. Many of those episodes were what poet Kenneth Koch called "white turnip filler." And much of the last three eps have been white turnip.



Compelling storytelling leaves the audience feeling empty? If you insist.

There are shocking changes of direction, and then there are pointless digressions. I know which make me more enamoured of the show, and which make me feel empty, and they are NOT the same thing.



Charming. Debate the post, not the poster.

i think some of us are taking our love and devotion to a t.v. show a little too seriously. it's fun. it's entertaining. it's escapist. it's clever. it's...a t.v show.

besides, i'm sure more people thought my post was more clever and appropriate to this thread than those that bothered to read through all of yours.
get over yourself.

My point being anything that makes people feel all these emotions and feelings wether good or bad is good writing wether it is pointless (which I agree it was last night) or it is fullfilling. It got us talking. It got us angry. It got us wondering if this fresh new show had fallen flat. Some loved it. Some hated it. All have an opinion. If it was just ho-hum...we wouldn't care. This episode touched a major nerve with people enough to turn them away from it. That is pretty amazing stuff.

i think some of us are taking our love and devotion to a t.v. show a little too seriously. it's fun. it's entertaining. it's escapist. it's clever. it's...a t.v show.

And as such, people are allowed to have different opinions about it. Even to express them!

besides, i'm sure more people thought my post was more clever and appropriate to this thread than those that bothered to read through all of yours.
get over yourself.

Again with the charm.

My point being anything that makes people feel all these emotions and feelings wether good or bad is good writing wether it is pointless (which I agree it was last night) or it is fullfilling. It got us talking. It got us angry. It got us wondering if this fresh new show had fallen flat. Some loved it. Some hated it. All have an opinion. If it was just ho-hum...we wouldn't care. This episode touched a major nerve with people enough to turn them away from it. That is pretty amazing stuff.

Well, yes and no. :) Emotions are good, but controversy is not the same thing as good writing. Debates that are ABOUT the characters or events in the fiction are a mark of good writing: Is Locke guilty or innocent in Boone's death? Are Danielle and Desmond crazy, or is there a "sickness"? Heck, should Kate be with Sawyer or with Jack or be eaten by starving piranhas?

But when people find that the show is so badly constructed, so disappointing, that they want to turn it off, that's not good. It's sad.

And as such, people are allowed to have different opinions about it. Even to express them!



Again with the charm.

what's with you? you feel free to criticize while at the same time defending people's rights to self-expression? and you do it in a smarmy way too, which, honestly, is incredibly alienating.
no fun at all.
and, as a matter of fact, people tell me quite frequently just how charming i am.
well you win.
feel free to quote your koch and shelley and o'hara till the cows come home and i'll pack up my toys and go play in another sandbox.
cheers!

what's with you? you feel free to criticize while at the same time defending people's rights to self-expression? and you do it in a smarmy way too, which, honestly, is incredibly alienating.
no fun at all.
and, as a matter of fact, people tell me quite frequently just how charming i am.
well you win.
feel free to quote your koch and shelley and o'hara till the cows come home and i'll pack up my toys and go play in another sandbox.
cheers!

Oh, for Pete's sake. Yes, I'm in favor of self-expression, and that's why I thought you were being flip and dismissive to Vanzack. Why make fun of him/her for having a different opinion? Especially when it's an opinion that agrees with mine. :angel:

I'm sure you're very charming. I, on the other hand, am a grumpy, pesky, smarmy meanie whom you should not allow to chase you to another sandbox.

And now back to your regularly scheduled topic...

Anyways (jumping back to the topic of Lost) at least this show is better than reality TV.

There's something we can (most of us!) agree on. :)

Oh, for Pete's sake. Yes, I'm in favor of self-expression, and that's why I thought you were being flip and dismissive to Vanzack. Why make fun of him/her for having a different opinion? Especially when it's an opinion that agrees with mine. :angel:

I'm sure you're very charming. I, on the other hand, am a grumpy, pesky, smarmy meanie whom you should not allow to chase you to another sandbox.

And now back to your regularly scheduled topic...



There's something we can (most of us!) agree on. :)

i didn't really leave. i lied about that.

i have often wondered how exactly the creative process works for a show like this. do they have all the answers and they work out to them, or what? if that's the case then the show has to have a life-span, a fixed number of episodes and seasons. i've always been afraid it will be like the x-files who answered the aliens question and then ansered it again and then answered it again until it didn't make any sense just so they could extend the run. and we all know how that sucked by the end. british shows on the other hand seem to be pitched differently and have fixed runs. i'm sure somebody knows the anwer to this regarding lost.

I am sorry but I LOVE LOST , but I did not like that episode, that is the only episode I did not like. YES it had its moments that I loved, but compared to all the other episodes, I have to say this was my least favorite

Quick question because after reading 16 pgs. I'm a little LOST (pun intended). Are we debating the ep's merit or the original poster's?

I won't debate about the original poster because everyone's entitled to their own opinion and I'm not one to give it to them.

As for the ep, I liked it much better than last week's. (So very tired of Mike being angry all the time and the Sawyer bashing when it's uncalled for as it was last week. My opinion of the character's reactions:

Kate's - definitely consistent; don't care about beliefs; ummm, chocolate; ohhh, guns; electronics broke? "I'll go for Sayid while you two argue belief systems." Definitely par for the course.

Sayid's - help needed. Quick assessment and miltary trained to do without question. Countdown in the bad hatch with a broken computer; explain later, fix now. Very normal. (For the record, he mentioned that Desmond had replaced the mother board already but had crossed some wires in the processor, I think, resulting in the blown fuse so half the computer was already fixed and he mainly needed power to finish it. They didn't show us details because they wanted us to see Jack and D in the jungle. Selectful editing.)

Locke - consistent with the hatch will reveil all eventually. Must watch tape again.

Desmond - remarkably borderline insane due to the continuous pressure and captivity. He reminded me a lot of Danielle. Maybe that's why both names begin with D (wink). Totally freaked when faced with the end of his job of keeping himself safe and alive.

Small note of interest: Remember how Locke was reluctant to believe Danielle about the Others, saying she appeared to be "mentally challenged", and Jack didn't want to take a chance on not believing her. Now, the roles are switched with Jack not believing and Locke not wanting to take a chance. I thought that was curious.

Hurley - There's no way after telling Jack, the group's appointed leader, and having his concern about the numbers but the fact that he was in a mental institution centered on, that he would reveal that secret to anyone else. Besides, Locke already refused to listen to him by blowing the Hatch last Season. Who else can Hurley trust to confide in about the numbers, considering Jack's, Locke's and Charlie's reactions to his attempts? He's seen how the group reacted to Kate once she was outted. If I was him, I wouldn't take another chance either. Everyone believes they are just numbers and therefore have no power. Does anyone out there really think the numbers actually have power?

Jack - He's extremely stressed and overwrought. Remember, it's been less than a week since he was pouring his own blood into Boone. He didn't have any sleep that night. Then there was the chase for shannon, finding the Hatch, Danielle and the Others, the Black Rock and Artz, the Security System chase with Dynamite and Locke's capture, and mainly, no sleep for at least the last 24+ hours. Don't forget all the mental games with Locke during that time.

Now, when he's faced with Desmond who has a gun to Locke's head and Kate is missing, who here wouldn't believe it was a halucination? I mean honestly, the man's hanging on by less than a thread. Then Kate acts and the shot goes off. Locke has to calm Jack down as he pins Desmond, who then ominously remarks, "We're all going to die." Jack is still more than mentally stunned by all this as D frantically works to repair the computer. He comes out of it a bit to ask some questions and is referred to the film. D fails to fix the computer and flees as Jack and Locke mentally try to wrap their minds around the situation. Jack finally determines it's not worth it and leaves Locke behind, sealing him to his destiny (remember Jack locked the door behind him to get the rejection across to Locke). D's being there bothers Jack so he follows him for more answers. I agreee that Jack's wife is a severe sore spot for Jack who just couldn't cope anymore and D was free to continue into the woods.

So why does Jack return to the hatch with the numbers when he doesn't believe? Because he had the numbers, the code, probably. But remember he doesn't believe in the countdown. This becomes the crucial part of this whole ep and the show, resulting in the showdown.

Jack doesn't want to believe in anything Locke does because then he couldn't make Locke his enemy. Remember the "Locke" problem that Jack was seeing? If Jack admitted to Locke that he knew D previously, it might give credidence to Locke's "Everything happens for a reason" and destiny. This is a major issue for Jack anyway and the Locke-Boone incident resulting from the Hatch has made it even larger. Jack is terrified of Locke's utter faith and doesn't want to be a part of it in any way.

Locke knows this. Hence, the showdown with Jack. Remember Jack is the group's leader with some looking to Locke for guidence before Boone. In having Jack push the button, Locke is having Jack acknowledge that Locke's belief "might" have some substance. The "leap of faith" was also a symbolic shred of faith in Locke bridging the divide between the two making a tentative truce.

Why did Jack do it? For the same reason that everyone, even the very religious, fear the unknown and death. Regardless of what you believe will happen, you never really know for sure until it's done. Then there's no going back. Who in his right mind would take such a chance when there's a simple option? Even Jack acknowledged that and that's all that Locke wanted so that Jack would stop fighting so much.

Darn, I think too much. Need more coffee.

If you don't like it fine, We do and most of us are just bored to tears buy post that go "I hate this show" "I think it should give us more info" ect. ect.


This wasn't directed at me but I have in the past received similar comments when discussing this show on other boards so I wanted to address it. I guess my biggest question is - why would someone who is "bored" with negative threads about the show open a thread which is clearly negative? I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the OP's decision to start this thread but I am curious why anyone who dislikes negative discussion about this show even bothers reading these kinds of threads.


We love it just the way it is. I suspect that after the 50th similar post that many, who love the show, feel the same way.

I certainly have no qualms with you loving the show (although I'm never a big fan of using the word "we" when expressing opinions as that implies speaking for others) but at the same time I have no qualms with those who are dissapointed with the show in general or specific episodes. Therefore, a second question from me - does the fact that someone dislikes any or all of an episode (and subsequently posts about it) impact your ability to 1) enjoy the show and 2) enjoy the message board?

These questions are not delivered with an eye towards picking fight but rather with sincere interest in discussing message board psychology.

BTW, to the person with the Teletubby comment, Dora and Boots are trying to avoid the snow bears on Nick right now.:biggrin:

Vanzack, I completely disagree. Jump the shark?!? WTF?? That was one of the best episodes yet. I think you'd go a little nuts being on an island for 40+ days with limited food, scary monsters (whatever it is), someone telling you you're all going to die. I mean c'mon.

Locke having Jack push the button to me was about who had control.
This round it would seem Locke won, but who wins the war is left to be seen.

Imagine for a second that you are Jack.

Wouldnt the FIRST THING YOU DO, before you could conceive of doing anything else, is say to Desmond "How the hell did I meet you 4 years ago and now we are both here?"

And would Desmond upon realizing he has met Jack before be so blase about the whole thing?

I would think that this would be a show stopper - enough to put a shotgun in your mouth and blow it off - but both characters seem fine with not asking each other or finding out.

IS THAT HOW THEY WOULD ACT??

Is that how they would act? Obviously the answer is yes, because that is how they did act.

Is that how you would act? or how I would act? Perhaps not, but of course none of us actually knows how we would act. We only know how we think we would act. Unless there are any in our number who have ever been stranded in a similar situation.

Personally, I've never seen a TV show or movie where the characters acted like my perception of the way real people behave in a given situation. Add to that the 2 minor points that no two people behave exactly the same and that we are discussing fictional characters -- and their behavior doesn't seem nearly so odd.

If we were all facinated by the way real people behave in real situations, this would be a Biography Channel site.

It seemed as if Locke and Jack switched roles last night...another post made a great point of Jack insisting they believe Danielle after Locke dismissed her. Now...other way around. And...why did Jack come back if it was all babble...

We need to remember too about behaviors when things get upside down. We all saw what happened after Katrina...and that took, what, a day? These folks have been on this Island for 44 days and are just now showing signs of unraveling. Unlike the other survivors on the other side of the Island...they look like they melted down totally and fast. This has to mean something.

I seriously suspect the tail section survivors have had a much harder time of it, probably without a doctor to help them out.

i didn't really leave. i lied about that.

i have often wondered how exactly the creative process works for a show like this. do they have all the answers and they work out to them, or what? if that's the case then the show has to have a life-span, a fixed number of episodes and seasons. i've always been afraid it will be like the x-files who answered the aliens question and then ansered it again and then answered it again until it didn't make any sense just so they could extend the run. and we all know how that sucked by the end. british shows on the other hand seem to be pitched differently and have fixed runs. i'm sure somebody knows the anwer to this regarding lost.

I don't know about their long term plans, but I did read somewhere here (The Fuse) today that JJ in an interview said that they started with the cliff hanger for the season 2 finale and wrote all the episode backwards from that episode (for this season). So, I'm pretty sure this whole season is planned out (from what I read).

This wasn't directed at me but I have in the past received similar comments when discussing this show on other boards so I wanted to address it. I guess my biggest question is - why would someone who is "bored" with negative threads about the show open a thread which is clearly negative? I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the OP's decision to start this thread but I am curious why anyone who dislikes negative discussion about this show even bothers reading these kinds of threads.




I certainly have no qualms with you loving the show (although I'm never a big fan of using the word "we" when expressing opinions as that implies speaking for others) but at the same time I have no qualms with those who are dissapointed with the show in general or specific episodes. Therefore, a second question from me - does the fact that someone dislikes any or all of an episode (and subsequently posts about it) impact your ability to 1) enjoy the show and 2) enjoy the message board?

These questions are not delivered with an eye towards picking fight but rather with sincere interest in discussing message board psychology.


To adress your guestions:
First: the thread is named So So So So So Bad....
Which in truth could refer to the situation Sawyer, Mike and Jin are in. It could have pertained to anything. That is why I opened it in the first place.
Second: I do not mind if someone has a constructive point of criticism to make. Nothing is perfect or will ever be perfect. I found odd moments in the episode myself. Which I have stated in other threads but in truth,
"I tried. I really tried to give this show a break. But it has jumped the shark."
IMO is just a remark to inflame a war of words. Which I usually try not to respond to but I was just in the wrong mood today and found myself responding anyway.
The word We was used, not in assuming that I speak for all but in a camaraderie type reference, to all those that have posted in a positive way to the original posters words.

OK jet -what is a POSSIBLE - and I mean ANYTHING POSSIBLE - explanation for them behaving this way?

Just connect some of the dots for me. Please.

Actually, there is... but I'll get to that in a second.

First let me say thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings. As a sociologist, I value differing perspectives, especially when they might break up group think.

I don't want this place to be one where people are not free to express criticism of the show or any part of it. I think that the people who do not care to read or participate in dissenting or constructively critical threads are the ones who should exercize their free will to skip such threads, rather than attempt to censor you and drive you off.

There are a number of us here who do actually enjoy discussiong both strengths and weaknesses of the show, various episodes and characters.

I don't see why the happy go lucky crowd can't just leave us the heck alone.

I also had some serious reservations and concerns after the first two episodes and the last few of season 1, though I have enjoyed all of them. I agree with you that much of the behavior, or lack of it, is non-sensical. I was starting to feel like I could only suspend so much disbelief.

However... getting back to your question above, the writers have now framed the island mystery explicitely within the realm of social science experimentation. This could be a red herring (though I hope not) or it could be another way to just completely fool the Lostaways. No matter what, when we analyze the show through sociological theory quite a bit of their irrational behavior is more plausible.

I'm still irritated that they didn't eat the polar bear, haven't built latrines, didn't figure out for weeks that Locke was lying about hunting, didn't set up an armed guard in the first place and didn't keep it up after Homecoming (I mean, Duh!), actually consented without argument to putting Walt on that raft, believed Danielle Rousseau that their only choices were to "run, hide or die" without the slightest bit of probing follow-up questions, thought dynamiting an unknown hatch was a good solution to save everyone, performed successful CPR on a bobbing raft in the ocean, and still haven't asked Kate just what the hell it is that she did.

Despite all my reservations and criticisms, I still love every minute of every show and can't wait for more.

But I'm not going to pretend it's perfect.

YOU, nor anyone you know, have ever been on an island like this...You have no idea what's going on and why they act like they do. No one does.


Excellent point!!!!!!!! We don't know how we would react to anything that has gone on with the show.:)

Dangerdork - cant wait to hear what you have to say.

I ask one question. Hurley knows the numbers and their significance. He won the lottery with them. He made a quest before getting on the plane to find out their significance.

Then he sees them on the hatch. Then he sees them entered in to the computer. Being that you are trying to survive TOGETHER on an island - isnt this information something you would share?

Hurley believes the numbers are cursed and that sharing them will spread the curse. The only people he's talked to about it either thought he was nuts or had experienced the curse (NUM). He believes he's protecting them by keeping the numbers to himself.

And he has tried to talk to peopleor stop them on the island.

He did talk to Jack about it, but Jack more or less told him he was crazy. If the supposed leader invalidates you, why would you have any belief that anybody would take you seriously? (MOSMOF)

He tried to talk to Charlie and he was invalidated there due to Charlie's self-absorption. (NUM)

He tried to stop Locke twice when things involved numbers (Ex and OR).

I don't want this place to be one where people are not free to express criticism of the show or any part of it. I think that the people who do not care to read or participate in dissenting or constructively critical threads are the ones who should exercize their free will to skip such threads, rather than attempt to censor you and drive you off.

There are a number of us here who do actually enjoy discussiong both strengths and weaknesses of the show, various episodes and characters.

Excellent post, creme, and not just because I totally agree with it - or maybe because I totally agree with it!

However... getting back to your question above, the writers have now framed the island mystery explicitely within the realm of social science experimentation. This could be a red herring (though I hope not) or it could be another way to just completely fool the Lostaways. No matter what, when we analyze the show through sociological theory quite a bit of their irrational behavior is more plausible.

I'm still irritated that they didn't eat the polar bear, haven't built latrines, didn't figure out for weeks that Locke was lying about hunting, didn't set up an armed guard in the first place and didn't keep it up after Homecoming (I mean, Duh!), actually consented without argument to putting Walt on that raft, believed Danielle Rousseau that their only choices were to "run, hide or die" without the slightest bit of probing follow-up questions, thought dynamiting an unknown hatch was a good solution to save everyone, performed successful CPR on a bobbing raft in the ocean, and still haven't asked Kate just what the hell it is that she did.


The characters have done alot of things that don't make sense, the things you listed and more. I think we have made some assumptions about their environment that may turn out to be untrue. For example, that they are really survivors of a downed 777. For all we know, they are all in some sleep lab in Sydney or on some man-made island on the next season of Survivor, "Survivor--Real Life", or heck, even characters in a video game.

As viewers, Lost is requiring us to take a leap of faith that these apparent oversights and gaping plot holes are intentional. Heck, the writers are banging us over the head with the "keep the faith" message in almost every episode.

Should we be allowed to b!tch about it? Sure! Are all of the mistakes intentional? I doubt it---all TV shows have continuity issues, but they should still be discussed.

These forums are fantastic and well managed. You should visit some of the other Lost message boards sometime. Sheesh!!

Excellent post, creme, and not just because I totally agree with it - or maybe because I totally agree with it!

Agreed. Let's not all drink the koolaid folks...just because we disagree with a certain premise doesn't mean we don't like the show or the direction. I learned a long time ago that acceptance depends on just how much belief you have to suspend to grasp and agree with what is going on. There were several of those moments last night that just took way too much suspension of belief to grasp. I am sure, however, those gaps will be filled in as we go along. ENJOY THE RIDE!

Actually, there is... but I'll get to that in a second.

First let me say thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings. As a sociologist, I value differing perspectives, especially when they might break up group think.

I don't want this place to be one where people are not free to express criticism of the show or any part of it. I think that the people who do not care to read or participate in dissenting or constructively critical threads are the ones who should exercize their free will to skip such threads, rather than attempt to censor you and drive you off.

There are a number of us here who do actually enjoy discussiong both strengths and weaknesses of the show, various episodes and characters.

I don't see why the happy go lucky crowd can't just leave us the heck alone.

I also had some serious reservations and concerns after the first two episodes and the last few of season 1, though I have enjoyed all of them. I agree with you that much of the behavior, or lack of it, is non-sensical. I was starting to feel like I could only suspend so much disbelief.

However... getting back to your question above, the writers have now framed the island mystery explicitely within the realm of social science experimentation. This could be a red herring (though I hope not) or it could be another way to just completely fool the Lostaways. No matter what, when we analyze the show through sociological theory quite a bit of their irrational behavior is more plausible.

I'm still irritated that they didn't eat the polar bear, haven't built latrines, didn't figure out for weeks that Locke was lying about hunting, didn't set up an armed guard in the first place and didn't keep it up after Homecoming (I mean, Duh!), actually consented without argument to putting Walt on that raft, believed Danielle Rousseau that their only choices were to "run, hide or die" without the slightest bit of probing follow-up questions, thought dynamiting an unknown hatch was a good solution to save everyone, performed successful CPR on a bobbing raft in the ocean, and still haven't asked Kate just what the hell it is that she did.

Despite all my reservations and criticisms, I still love every minute of every show and can't wait for more.

But I'm not going to pretend it's perfect.

Best post yet!! Thank you and I will try to take your style of watching.

Great post

Great answer Jenn and Thanks.

But according to a former writer in rolling Stone your assumption that the writers do everything for a reason is not true. He states there is tons of backwriting and that there is no direction.

Im not saying that is gospel but interesting none the less.

Thanks again

I would be ever so grateful if you could link to this story or give me the edition of RS so I can find it. TIA.

I would be ever so grateful if you could link to this story or give me the edition of RS so I can find it. TIA.
Keep in mind this writer is no longer on the show and I'm sure is a tad bitter...lots of spin out of both camps on that article but what is...is...we don't know the backstory.

I would be ever so grateful if you could link to this story or give me the edition of RS so I can find it. TIA.

Im pretty sure that Evangeline Lilly is on the cover - very recent - former writer has lots of not so nice things to say especially how they "backwrite" - a technique that they use to make it look like lots of things connect but they really mean nothing.

i hope i didn't get put into the happy go lucky crowd (a la creme's earlier post) because i made fun of vanzack before. i'm actually very surly and i'd hate to misrepresent myself. criticism of the show is cool, unbridled passion for the show is cool too. what i think started this thread on such a crazy, and at times unpleasant and defensive ride is vanzack's use of the words "jumping the shark" in the first post of the thread. also, the gratuitous use of all the "so's" in the title. for a show where a lot of fans have pictures of the stars faces on their pillow cases things like that tend to get people a little wound up.
if sometimes i have to watch the show all the while pretending to have had a labotomy to make sense of the characters actions then so be it. it's still more entertaining than most things on t.v.

Im pretty sure that Evangeline Lilly is on the cover - very recent - former writer has lots of not so nice things to say especially how they "backwrite" - a technique that they use to make it look like lots of things connect but they really mean nothing.

That's the one. The writer you are referring to is David Fury, who left Lost late last season.

The fact that the group just let Desmond leave when they had

1. No reason to let him go
2. Had the power to make him stay.
3. Had a HUGE interest in making him stay

Leaves me uneasy. Anyone care to comment? I just think you would see Jack or Locke or Kate say with a gun "you arent going anywhere until we get this computer fixed and we can sit down and talk" and make him sit there until everything was fixed.

Then have an interrogation.

It is totally illogical that they watched him get supplies and walk out the door.

I agree, and I had the exact same problem with how they handled Danielle. They had three chances to detain and further question her: while she was in the camp, when she left them at the Black Rock, and when they found her at the Black Smoke.

Non-sensical. But I choose to believe that at least part the irrationality of the Lostaways is one of the mysteries of the island, now very possibly related to scientific experimentation.

Are you familiar with the concept of learned helplessness? If there isn't already a thread discussing this and other soci - psych theories I'll start one soon.

Aside: I think Harvester might be confusing you with Malachy, who was hauled off to security and temporarily banned after expressing his seditious views last week. He's supposed to be unbanned in a few more days. Long live Malachy.

In the future you might want to put a disclaimer at the top of any critical posts stating that constructive criticism follows and blindly loyal fans not interested in dissent and debate need not reply.

Big
I was thinking the same thing about myself being in that group

I'm glad vanzack made a reappearance. I was begining to think we were blowing smoke over here.

Did we help you 'connect' any dots at all? I mean those of us who were trying to answer your questions and not attack you or your right to question certain things about the show.

I do not mind constructive criticism
I did not find the first post constructive criticism at all, hence my post.
I guess that is just another point of view.

I love this show and I can't get enough!!!!....but I do have to admit....last night's episode was really ridiculous...the whole Locke telling Jack that he must believe and have faith was a little CHEEZY upon the last seconds ticking down till he pushed the button. I had to sort of laugh but I still love the fact that there is a lot that my mind gets wrapped around, and by the way, MICHELLE R. is such a wonderful additon to the cast. She is a fierce B****H and I love her! I she hooks up with SAWYER....that would be HOT!

Wow vansack. You really opened up a can of worms. I have not had time to read all hundred pages of this thread, so forgiveme if some of the things that I say have already been mentioned. I am mostly responding to your quesions from the first 7 pages or so of the thread.

Oh, and by the way, I have always appreciated your well thought out comments, even if I don't agree with all of them... I also think that is is good to have productive discussion regarding the strenghts and weaknesses of the show, and can't understand why some people get so defensive. I think that is the point of JJ creating this board.

I agree with everything that has been said about Jack. I felt that he was losing his grip last night because all this "coincidental" stuff that can't really be coincidental is just too much for him... he cannot process it, he cannot accept it, it is too much for his scientific, tired, brain. He is sleep and food deprived, not to mention, there have been some pretty traumatic stuff happen to him just previous to the crash. I am of the opinion that no matter how "well put together" Jack tries to present himself as, he is probably the one suffering the most from PTSD. He blames himself for his father's death, etc... now all this. I think that he was asking questions as best as he could for the state of mind he is in, and as fast as he could, not really listening to answers but mostly trying to process it all in his own traumitized brain.

I think that desmond is a bit off his rocker. I don't buy his whole explanation... he didn't even mention anything about a "sickness" and the serum that he has, and obviously thought was inportant to take with him. He was probably glad and a little relieved for the chance to get out of there when he could, even if he realy does think that he is saving the world. He is also sleep deprived too.

Hurley - Has anyone mentioned that Hurley actualy DID tell Jack about the numbers and the lottery, and that they are cursed, etc? And what was Jack's reaction? That would be enough for me to not tell anyone else. But I also think he was trying to explain, and Locke told him "this isn't the time or the place"... Also, there was precious little time for him to say anything or do all the explaining in that moment with the countdown looming over his head, and when he realized the numbers weren't correct, maybe he thought that there was therefore not a reason to have to explain in that moment.

I think Sayid's reaction was actually very plausible and logical. I would have done the same thing... there is a countdown, we don't know what will happen when it reaches zero, fix it, then discuss later. He woudl rather have the extra time than take a chance that something will happen. Remember that Sayid wasn't a big fan of the hatch anyway, he was opposed to going into it, and I think that the military background of his also plays a role, where there is a "countdown" his frame of reference would be that it cannot be a good thing.

Hope some of this makes sense... I have to go back now and read your first post to see what else I wanted to add... :smile: Don't get discouraged by those that are defensive, because there are those of us that enjoy these discussions.

Good ideas lostinSLC, especially that of Jack having PTSD. I wouldn't be surprised if they all are experiencing it in one form or another, and the lack of food and sleep doesn't help matters at all. Desmond looked a bit wacky to me too. He's been alone and pushing those buttons for a long time, and an hour of sleep here and there doesn't help matters at all.

I loved this part, too! I'm thinking that this would be the ideal time for Locke and Jack to try harder to compromise. With the huge battle that's going on with the rafters and those savages (ooooh, I hate all of them! AnaLucia ... look out babe 'cause Sawyer's gonna' take you out ... and it ain't gonna' be to dinner! LOL), having a little more mellowness on this side would be a good balance. I don't think we can continue with Jack and Locke batteling and the rafters batteling. That would be too much.

I think the'll be some changes made ... :biggrin:

Well, Jin did say in the promo:

Everything is going to change. GUH!

I think there was so much going on in this episode that people don't even realize everything that happened. I think it will take repeated viewings. My friend compared this episode to some of the Rod Serling eps of The Twilight Zone (big praise!). I can't stop thinking about it, personally.

Dmcquickly said:
As Sawyer said last season, and Jack said last night, if you beat something long enough it will begin to listen to you.

This is the at the heart of learned helplessness.

Dmc - I hope you come back more and share your literary insights. We have a section at the Long Lost List specifically dedicated to Lit References in the show, I'm sure you have much to contribute. (See the link in my siggy for more info on the LLL).

I think I'm about half way through this thread now and I'm really happy with the direction the discussion has taken, asit has turned into just the sort of intelligent discussion/debate that van was looking for. (Mostly).


Also, in the pit, I had a gut feeling after watching Ana-Lucia's facial expressions and her probing questions that she had an agenda. Why the guys didn't see this until it was too late I'm not sure (for the sake of the story I guess).


I knew within nano-seconds that she was lying. I think they didn't pick it up because a) she's purty (that's why she was sent down there) and b) they are on a hero kick now - especially Sawyer. They didn't see because they didn't want to see, they wanted to believe that she was a victim also because it made them less alone.

I'm not "done" but I'm getting worried. I love this show and want to continue loving it. It was my new "Buffy". This review pretty much sums up how I reacted to last night's episode.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/commentary/0,6115,1114570_3_0_,00.html

I have to say: That was a horribly written review. It was written for EW in the vein of TWoP, but failed. Miserably.

As one of the commenters said on that page, "I like the other writer of this column way more.". The problem is, the reviewer doesn't seem to get the show. First, he had issue with flashbacks. That's just part of the make-up of the series. Has this reviewer actually been watching the show or did he do a bit of research and lay down the law (don't knock it. I've had to write movie reviews before for movies I didn't see - long story)?

Anyway, that's just my two cents on that particular review. :smile:

Not to get off track...but did anyone else see Locke's dad in that "Orientation" film??

If this is true, please find a screen cap and add it to the LLL Observations Thread.

Oh, and by the way, the posts by creme in my opinion are right on and I agree with them.. being in the field of Social work, I have had a taste of how people react when they are under alot of stress, and it is not exactly always rational or normal. Which is why I guess I can sometimes accept their peculiar behavior sometimes. Though I do agree about not interrogating Danielle when they have had the chance. That has always been frustrating for me.

I'm glad vanzack made a reappearance. I was begining to think we were blowing smoke over here.

Did we help you 'connect' any dots at all? I mean those of us who were trying to answer your questions and not attack you or your right to question certain things about the show.

Yes I have read every word - Im just choosing not to get involved in the debate over how I worded my post or how I should be nicer.

I think the general tone is that the lost cast MIGHT be behaving in character because of all of the stress on them. This is an acceptable answer to a certain extent.

I beleive that the test for good writing is whether or not your storyline and characters follow the RULES THAT YOU SET UP. Im not upset that in Star Wars characters behave a certain way on planet X. But here the show has gone to great lengths to tell us about the characters. I would like them to behave in consistency with their buildup - thats all.

I dont beleive that Hurley wouldnt explain "look everyone, I won the lottery using these numbers and I saw them on the hatch lid, and I saw them on Danielles map". At the very least - wouldnt he make the observation that the numbers were on the hatch lid and on Danielles notes? How does that make him crazy? I mean you reach a certain point where you cant question yourself after being rejected by the crowd and you just yell out "THIS IS CRAZY!!"

And I dont beleive that they would all just let Desmond go. There is no way. I dont think the distraction of the computer would come first. I beleive that these people who are trying to survive would jump at the first chance to find out HOW TO SURVIVE. Computers and social interaction would come second. They would get answers. It would be paramount to their survival.

So overall - there have been several insightful posts - and a lot of suspended disbeleif posts.

I will keep reading!

Oh don't get me wrong. I've had issue with Lost eps before. Just not this one. The main one I had issue with was "Do No Harm". I get the emotional value of the episode and overall, I liked it, but the medical "treatments" were extremely farfetched. I still laugh at the idea of Jack attempting to give Boone a transfusion with whatever that thing was.

as far as hurley not telling anyone about the numbers goes...
i don't think he is necessarily behaving in an irrational or out-of-character manner. i think that could be explained away by his psych ward experience. he could possibly be suffering from a certain amount of self-doubt and paranoia. not to mention distrust of other people believing him, which has already been show with people his is close to (jack, charlie). and maybe he does have issues still. maybe he needs his meds or just to talk to his therapist or something. we still don't know enough about his history to judge what is in or out of character (and along with that, what is or is not lazy storytelling.)

I understand what you are saying, vansack.

Let me try again, as I am not doing a good job of explaining what I want.

It is my opinion that the point of the flashbacks are to show you that these people and the way the are reacting to the situations is a direct result of their own peculiar circumstances and life experiences (that may be an obvious statement, but oh well). If you think about it, ALL of these people have already suffered and been through VERY traumatic things in their life, thus their actions and RE-actions will already be skewed, in the direction of their experiences. My point is, I DO think that each character's reactions are following the rules that the writers have set up for them.

For example, Hurley - He was in a psych ward, probably is senstive already that people think he is crazy, has tried to tell Charlie and Jack both about winning the lottery, has not gotten anywhere with that as they have not believed him or put ANY importance on what he is saying... the only one that does believe him is Danielle, which they beleive is crazy herself... on top of all of this, he has suffered UNBELIVEABLE bad luck and a set of circumstances due to the "numbers" that may push anyone over the edge... and no matter how many times he tried to tell someone that he had "bad luck", they didn't believe him... even the widow of the other guy that died didn't believe him. I think that he questions his own sanity as well through all of this... THEN put him in the situation he was in last night, where he DID try to explain, was told it wasn't the time or place, and then sees that Locke used the wrong numbers and takes the path of least resistance to just let him use the wrong numbers instead of trying to explain. On top of that, there is this countdown clock and the suggestion that "something bad" will occur unless they take some action, which is a highly stressful situation in itself and then for him to hae to try to explain... I think that it is within Hurley's personality NOT to say anything and to "take the path of least resistance", as I have already said. He is not a particularly assertive person, in my opinion.

And about letting Desmond go... IMO, Locke was the one that "let him go", and to him, the "countdown" would come first... He belives that that it very well may be a threat to their survival and the WORLD'S survival, so deal with that crises first and sort the rest out later. After all, it is an island, and where is Desmond going to go?

But JACK did NOT let Desmond go, he went after him, and he was already at the breaking point, and then to have the whole thing drudged up about the coincidence that he has met Desmond before... AND about his wife, which we don't really even know all the information about that yet... too many conicidences and strange occurances, to much for logical minded Jack's to sort through in that moment... I just think that it was all too much for him to handle at that point, and he knew that he didnt' have the real energy to go after him at that point.

Yes I have read every word - I'm just choosing not to get involved in the debate over how I worded my post or how I should be nicer.


We would not want to get all negative now would we.
Yes, now that we have successfully broken through that group think. Were people shift gears in mid thread, so they'll all be on the same page.
Why address someone else's criticism of your critical post?
hummm...... guess that means only you have the right to criticize.

are you sure we broke through the group think thing or are we just wording it differently?

I have to say: That was a horribly written review. It was written for EW in the vein of TWoP, but failed. Miserably.

As one of the commenters said on that page, "I like the other writer of this column way more.". The problem is, the reviewer doesn't seem to get the show. First, he had issue with flashbacks. That's just part of the make-up of the series. Has this reviewer actually been watching the show or did he do a bit of research and lay down the law (don't knock it. I've had to write movie reviews before for movies I didn't see - long story)?

Anyway, that's just my two cents on that particular review. :smile:

Agreed... the Entertainment Weekly review has to be the most pretentious, annoying bit of writing that I've seen in a while. Ugh... it's like they've never seen the show before this episode. That was incredibly lame!

no, maybe people wouldn't behave like that in real life.... I know I for sure would be asking a million questions.

What you seem to have forgotten is that this isn't real life! It's a TV show and since when do characters on television act as though they were in reality?

I watch TV, Lost in particular, to be entertained. If you're no longer entertained, no problem. But to stop watching because the writers have their characters acting differently than someone in real life would... that's just a little much for me...
Nothing personal...

Okay, having plowed through 21 pages of this I have formulated an opinion or two.

1) some people like to start fights.

2) Some people are easy to set off.

3) Some actually find something intelligent to say.

I will try to add to the 3rd.

I must agree with Ladylunne (is that right?) about Jack and Desmond. To admit that he had met D before especially to Locke, and that now they were together in this billion to one sort of way would be to admit Locke might be right about his "we are all here for a reason", something Jack does not want to do. He is stressed big time and this is close to the last straw. Jack considers himself and man of reason and logic. To accept this whole scenerio with D might lead to having to accept Locke's "faith" and admit that things are out of his control.

I don't see them switching positions. Jack does hit the button but more as a tired of fighting kind of action. It fits more in with Sayid's way of thinking. Like "okay, this time I'll hit the button" but I seriously doubt he will do so again. Not without a lot of discussion.

As far as these people not acting like "real people" would act, like Danielle said, "are you on the same island as the rest of us" (okay something like that. :rolleyes: )

We don't really know as much about the characters as we might think. How many thought Helen was nnot Locke's girlfriend (like his boss)? Or at the beginning believe Kate would turn out to be misunderstood and innocent?

I don't think anyone can say with certainty what they would do under extreme circumstances until they have been there. I mean, these folks think they are alone but now the island is getting down right crowded, there is no one coming for them, there is something that can pull up large trees by the roots, dead people make appreances, the jungle whispers and there is a big, 200 year old ship sitting in the middle of the jungle.

Like someone said, is an underground government facility really that hard to believe? It makes much more sense than a lot of what they have dealt with.

Again, people don't act rationally in crazy situations. Heck, even in safe places people do dumb things. Just check out this site. http://www.darwinawards.com/

At my job they put books in each office to tell people what to do in case of an emergency. One of the flip cards actully tells you not to try and feed and unconscious person. :confused: Many people don't think logically under panic/stressful conditions.

For the poster who said that psychological experiments being performed was terrorism, please check out government programs and experiments from the 50's and 60's. Some scary stuff was done in the name of research, much out of ignorance. Many who worked on them were quite sincere in their research.

As to Mike and Sawyer sniping in their situation, some people when faced with such an extreme situation will grab onto anything that will help them keep their sanity. The enormity of their perdicament is too much after everything that has happened. They are doing something that is, to them normal that will perhaps make them feel closer to normal and so give them the ability to face the bigger stuff.

If you or someone you know has dealt with the death of a close relative, it can help to put ones' mind to dealing with the paperwork and arragements rather than the loss. Small stuff first. Smart in M&S place? No, but these two have shown they are not always very smart.

Surely you all have been in a bad situation, car accident, fire, whatever and had someone yell about whose fault it is when the fire is spreading or the gas is leaking. You can expect calm, rational thinking at a time like that but will be disappointed often. Not everyone can live up to that.

Men in foxholes will argue over who gets the last cigarette. By the way, Jack hitting the button could be a matter of "no athiests in foxholes'.

As with last year, I am content to watch and wait. I will not judge an enitre season or story line by one or two episodes. The mysteries still intrigue me as do the characters.

I'm happy with it so far. :)

Well I only read to the end of page 5 before I registered to post this reply, so forgive me if things are (likely) covered extensively in the remaining 15 or so pages I've yet to read.

Honestly, I would rate this as perhaps the worst episode yet of Lost, and I would put it down to, what I thought, was an overly cliche ending between Locke and Jack. Of course it remains to be seen what Jack's reasoning was to hit execute, but Locke told Jack that Jack needed to do it, and went on how it was a two person job, and he'd seen the Orientation film with Locke, I couldn't help but audibly groan. So typical of bad writing, IMO.

The rest of the (few) problems I have with the writing I can overlook, as they're not really horrid.*

But to me, you have 5 people standing around a computer, and one obviously wants to push the button. One obviously doesn't, but comes back to give the correct final number (indicating that he wants to believe in something, but not this). The other 3 are suddenly simply observers.

The fact that THIS is what the (possibly, but unlikely) final showdown between Faith and Science is extremely disappointing. The fact that there was a showdown over this at all (with the timer so dramatically close to zero) was the most disappointing to me, though. Contrived, and I simply don't believe that it would have happened with these 5 people in that situation (even given all they've been through in over 5 weeks).

That being said, this is still the best show on TV by far, but I'll also admit that I've been looking for things such as this ever since I heard that a second season was given the go-ahead. Moreso after I read that they're already planning for a 3rd season (pre-season USA Today article talking about trying to come up with a 2nd season-ending cliffhanger).

I couldn't help but think back to X-Files getting milked to the point that few people cared anymore about the main storyline (including myself), and have feared since that day that the same thing would happen with me and Lost.

I hope it doesn't go all bad, but there's a part of me that expects it to. I still think it should have been a one-season show (ala 24), and be talked about for a long time as one of the all-time great TV shows. It still has a chance to be one, but I can't help but be afraid that it will fizzle to an end instead of end with a bang.


* Though Hurley not telling ANYONE about the numbers in over 5 weeks is a huge stretch, especially after he sees them on the hatch, and tries to intervene, and reveals he knows the numbers, but not what he used them for, to Jack, and then to not speak up loudly, by some sort of explanation about the numbers specifically, instead of just mentioning that they don't know what they do, blah, blah. I mean, he's already told Jack, so why not also tell the other 3. He was running towards DYNAMITE in his desire to stop an action because of the numbers, but not do anything the next time? That's simply, to me, unbelievable.

Sorry if this has been posted already, BUT IT'S A TELEVISION SHOW.
Can't be right all the time!

Computers and social interaction would come second. They would get answers. It would be paramount to their survival.



I still think you are missing the point on this one. They were concerned that something horribly life threatening would happen IF THEY DIDN'T FIX THE COMPUTER. So yes, they were concerned primarily with their survival. They certaintly weren't excited about seeing it because Locke had been hankering to play tetris like his days as regional manager at the box company. Grilling Desmond for answers that he didn't have made no sense at the time...He had already shown that he was willing to answer their questions as best as he could. The guy doesn't know as much as you'd like to think he does. That mural didn't exactly give the impression that the guy was a genius. Here's an angry looking blue guy attacking some indian chick...and just to add some flavor here are some purple fishies to swim around.

Yes, there were a lot of questions they could have asked him, but the problem was they were strapped for time in a situation that could have been life-threatening for all of them. And to be honest, sitting around grilling some guy for 60 mins while there is a potential bomb counting down just doesn't seem plausible to me. I wouldn't be thinking about a whole mess of questions to ask someone if I thought I was going to die...I'd be trying to fix the computer.

Creme, here's a link to the Rolling Stone article: http://marx.se/?p=531

I have to say that I was disappointed by this episode as well.

To date I have loved the show almost without reservation. I was mildly frustrated by the repetition of most of the content in the last episode, but other than that I had no major complaints about the show, this season or last.

But last night's episode really, really rubbed me the wrong way. The dialogue seemed too composed. Like it wasn't being spoken by a real human being, but being read by an actor as it was written by a writer that was simply trying to hammer home a point without much regard for authenticity.

I have no problem with fantastic plot twists and things that don't make sense at first. I am perfectly able to suspend my normal beliefs and immerse myself in the reality that this show provides. But having such bad dialogue and such unrealistic human interaction (which is surprising considering that I have always thought the personal relationships were one of the major strengths of the show) completely jolted me out of the rhythm of the show, if you will.

I, too, thought that perhaps last night was the night that Lost jumped the shark. But I sure hope it didn't. And I will continue to watch it in the hopes that last night's episode was an aberration.

And last night's episode wasn't all bad. There were a lot of very interesting plot elements revealed. I can't wait to find out about Ana Lucia and The Others. And Kate is still a babe. :kiss:

Here's looking forward to next Wednesday!

I dont beleive that Hurley wouldnt explain "look everyone, I won the lottery using these numbers and I saw them on the hatch lid, and I saw them on Danielles map". At the very least - wouldnt he make the observation that the numbers were on the hatch lid and on Danielles notes? How does that make him crazy? I mean you reach a certain point where you cant question yourself after being rejected by the crowd and you just yell out "THIS IS CRAZY!!"

He did. He told Jack that the numbers were cursed. He told him about the lottery and that he saw them on the lid. And how did Jack respond? By telling him that was crazy. If you were stuck on an island with 40 people who you were forced to live with, don't you think you would pick and choose what you told them about yourself? Don't you think you'd leave out the part about you being in a mental institution? I know I would (ummm......not that I've ever been in an institution or anything....never mind).

Yes, Hurley did tell Jack about him winning the lottery with the numbers, all the bad stuff happening thereafter, and those numbers being on the hatch, but why didn't he tell Jack about the numbers being heard coming from the island by Sam, Lenny and Danielle? And why tell Jack, the skeptical doctor of all people, if you're worried about being considered crazy? Why not tell someone more inclined to take you seriously? For that matter, WHY tell Jack you were in a psych-ward if you don't want him to think you're crazy?! :confused:

I understand that Hurley is very sensitive to people thinking he's crazy and probably wants to keep the numbers as secret as possible, but since he already ran toward dynamite to prevent the hatch from being opened, why didn't he tell everyone all he knows about the numbers to prevent them from going inside the hatch? He'll risk his life chasing after dynamite, but won't tell people what he knows? :confused: If he had stomped out the fuse, he was going to have to explain why anyway, or they'd have just relit the thing again.


Now many people know what the numbers are and will be typing them into the computer to "save the world," so I think it will be ludicrous if he still doesn't tell people everything he knows about the numbers.

I'm with people who believe the characters acted in-character last night, especially Jack, Sayid, and Hurley. I also don't think there's anything odd about them "not asking questions." It seems to me whenever this particular complaint is brought up, it's always about a moment when there are more important things going on, such as a computer that needs to be fixed so that a button can be pushed so that they all won't die. These guys need to prioritize, and they do a damn good job of it. (I thought at one point both Jack *and* Locke were gonna have complete mental breakdowns. I thought the episode should have been called "Leap of Faith" too.)

Lost does not specifically write scenes for the sole purpose of preventing viewers from learning answers. All the "cop-outs" made sense logistically and plot-wise (except for Sayid refusing to take Jack to see Danielle). There's too much going on in these situations that we really need to take into consideration, and a lot of people don't seem to want to do it. They just seem to get stuck on the truncation of "answers" they want to know. (I find this true of people who also say that the backstories add nothing to what they already know. This show is layered, not superficial.)

And I gotta say, another reason I think these guys act so on in these situations is because it's how I would react. So saying Jack, et al don't act like ordinary people means nothing to me. It's a matter of perception.

I dont believe that Hurley wouldn't explain "look everyone, I won the lottery using these numbers and I saw them on the hatch lid, and I saw them on Danielles map". At the very least - wouldnt he make the observation that the numbers were on the hatch lid and on Danielles notes?
Oh, I totally buy it. Ever try being the poster going against the grain of the majority opinion? Impossible. Hurley *has* told people about the numbers, for well over a year. Only Danielle took him seriously. Hurley allowing Jack to press the button one more time literally isn't going to kill anything. Keeps the status quo. They can always not push the button at some time later in the future.

Besides which, Hurley--or anyone else for that matter--is not bound to tell anybody anything, ever. With Hurley's experience of never being believed anyways, I can see why he wouldn't exactly volunteer what he knows. Of course, I also seem to watch a different show where these guys talk to each other and share information quite a bit--which happens on camera incredibly frequently. I don't know why I'm the only one who seems to notice this.

Why not tell someone more inclined to take you seriously?
Thats easy, because he realizes how crazy it all sounds. Whats he going to say, "Hey, the reason we crashed and you are stuck on this island is all my fault. I used these numbers, blah, blah, blah." The next thing you know Sawyer would find a straight jacket and lock him up.

For that matter, WHY tell Jack you were in a psych-ward if you don't want him to think you're crazy?!
If you remember that slipped out. I don't think he ever meant for that bit of info to come out.

I hope it doesn't go all bad, but there's a part of me that expects it to. I still think it should have been a one-season show (ala 24), and be talked about for a long time as one of the all-time great TV shows. It still has a chance to be one, but I can't help but be afraid that it will fizzle to an end instead of end with a bang.


Whaaaa? One season? 24 is too good to last for just one season. The other seasons have been great. I didn't even start watching until season 4, and it was so good that I went and watched seasons 1-3 also.

Why are people fearing the ending to Lost so much? This show is about the journey, not the ending. And the writers have constantly stated that they have most of it already mapped out, which I doubt could be said for the X Files.

As long as they keep coming with quality episodes and storylines like Orientation, I don't mind them milking it for many many seasons. As long as the milk is good, why stop? They've earned it.

And I dont beleive that they would all just let Desmond go. There is no way. I dont think the distraction of the computer would come first. I beleive that these people who are trying to survive would jump at the first chance to find out HOW TO SURVIVE. Computers and social interaction would come second. They would get answers. It would be paramount to their survival.
For one thing, Desmond was expecting something pretty cataclysmic to happen in the Hatch in about 15 minutes, and there was no way he wanted to be anywhere near it. Nothing could be said to convince him to hang around.
Jack and the others could have tried to use force to keep him there, but they didn't see a point in it. He couldn't really help them with survival skills, as he's been living in a comfortable underground chamber for three years, and the survivors have been doing fine on their own for about two months.
Plus, he's a human, not just an encyclopedia of answers. The guy's been living through psychological torture for three years; they probably felt enough sympathy for him to let him run free for a change. Holding him hostage would be cruel. I'm not saying sympathy was the main thing that convinced the survivors to let him go, but it probably played at least a small part in the decision.
But, Jack did chase Desmond when he fled, so I doubt Jack was planning to let him escape. However, when Desmond pointed out that they had met before, it forced Jack to seriously consider the possibility of destiny. If it was possible that there was some merit to what Locke had been saying all along about fate, it was also possible that Locke could be right about the button. Jack was forced to make a choice, and he decided to return to the Hatch to try to prevent a possible disaster rather than pursuing Desmond. Besisdes, it's not like Desmond is gone forever- it is an island.
I dont beleive that Hurley wouldnt explain "look everyone, I won the lottery using these numbers and I saw them on the hatch lid, and I saw them on Danielles map". At the very least - wouldnt he make the observation that the numbers were on the hatch lid and on Danielles notes? How does that make him crazy? I mean you reach a certain point where you cant question yourself after being rejected by the crowd and you just yell out "THIS IS CRAZY!!"I don't think Hurley broke character or was just being stupid. When he saw Locke entering the Numbers you could tell he was seriously consider doing something to stop him, but then Locke entered the wrong number and Hurley felt relief. Then a moment later Jack appears and corrects Locke, and I think Hurley just got fed up with trying to get them to avoid the Numbers.
He had screamed at Locke that the Numbers were bad earlier, and Locke completely ignored him because he was so determined to open the Hatch. Then Hurley told Jack about the Numbers, and Jack just shrugged them off. I think Hurley was thinking something like, "You know what? I've had it with trying to convince them about this."
Plus, that was an extremely tense situation with the countdown, and Hurley was hesitant to butt into Jack and John's debate.
So Hurley is still terrified of the Numbers but intimidation, bitterness, and possibly subdued curiousity kept him from doing anything. I don't think that's really breaking character.

I do think that Lost has had contrived moments, but I didn't think Orientation had any significant ones.

* Though Hurley not telling ANYONE about the numbers in over 5 weeks is a huge stretch, especially after he sees them on the hatch, and tries to intervene, and reveals he knows the numbers, but not what he used them for, to Jack, and then to not speak up loudly, by some sort of explanation about the numbers specifically, instead of just mentioning that they don't know what they do, blah, blah. I mean, he's already told Jack, so why not also tell the other 3. He was running towards DYNAMITE in his desire to stop an action because of the numbers, but not do anything the next time? That's simply, to me, unbelievable.

EXACTLY.

Thats easy, because he realizes how crazy it all sounds. Whats he going to say, "Hey, the reason we crashed and you are stuck on this island is all my fault. I used these numbers, blah, blah, blah." The next thing you know Sawyer would find a straight jacket and lock him up.

I can't believe that anyone would lock Hurley up just because he told them of his experience with the numbers, but regardless, my point is if Hurley truly was afraid of being considered crazy, it doesn't make sense to me that he'd tell Jack, the person probably least likely on the island to believe him.


If you remember that slipped out. I don't think he ever meant for that bit of info to come out.


Looked to me like he purposely said it. The first thing he said when he began to tell the story is "Awhile ago I was in this kind of psych ward . . ."

I tried. I really tried to give this show a break. But it has jumped the shark.



ya know what;s jumed the shark...

using the phrase "JUMED THE SHARK."

it was funny for like 5 minutes...its over now

I can't believe that anyone would lock Hurley up just because he told them of his experience with the numbers, but regardless, my point is if Hurley truly was afraid of being considered crazy, it doesn't make sense to me that he'd tell Jack, the person probably least likely on the island to believe him.

Really? You don't think it sounds crazy that these numbers caused the eventual crashing of the plane and stranding of all of them on the island? I think its at the very least paranoid behavior and would certainly cause me to keep some distance from that person. Also, I can't believe that you would be trapped on an island with a very large, crazy person and NOT think to protect yourself form him in some way. Thats simply human nature.
I guess the problem is that you think his explanation is plausible and I think it would sound crazy if I were actually there listening to it.

People like Sun and Claire would listen sympathetically and think "Well..HE believes its true and we must humor him'. Jack is struggling with the fantastic things going on around him and that would be just one more unbelievable thing for him to deal with.. and right now Charlie has his own agenda and can't see past his own needy self although he *might* get it in his head that he should keep Hurley away from Claire if he for some reason thinks he's dangerous.

Kate and Sawyer would find someway to use it. Kate wouldn't be deliberately cruel with the info but she would hold it in reserve. I honestly don't think Sawyer would hold it over his head either (hey psycho boy!) but he would store it up for some future use.

van said:
Yes I have read every word - Im just choosing not to get involved in the debate over how I worded my post or how I should be nicer.

This is wise.
I got booted off the internet in the middle of this thread and only just got to reconnect. I feel so far behind in the episode discussions this week!

Anyway, re: your comments on Hurly shouting out, "This is all crazy!"... that does seem like a normal response for a person to reach in a breaking point. There's a very real possibility that Hurley also believes he's crazy and in the middle of a breakdown. A lot of unbelievable, nutty stuff has happened to him. At this point he probably feels that speaking up will do no good and will possibly make things worse.

We would not want to get all negative now would we.
Yes, now that we have successfully broken through that group think. Were people shift gears in mid thread, so they'll all be on the same page.
Why address someone else's criticism of your critical post?
hummm...... guess that means only you have the right to criticize.

are you sure we broke through the group think thing or are we just wording it differently?

Oh, the irony...

Brickyard said:
Honestly, I would rate this as perhaps the worst episode yet of Lost, and I would put it down to, what I thought, was an overly cliche ending between Locke and Jack. Of course it remains to be seen what Jack's reasoning was to hit execute, but Locke told Jack that Jack needed to do it, and went on how it was a two person job, and he'd seen the Orientation film with Locke, I couldn't help but audibly groan. So typical of bad writing, IMO.

The rest of the (few) problems I have with the writing I can overlook, as they're not really horrid.*

But to me, you have 5 people standing around a computer, and one obviously wants to push the button. One obviously doesn't, but comes back to give the correct final number (indicating that he wants to believe in something, but not this). The other 3 are suddenly simply observers.

I actually really liked the ending. I haven't had much chance to explore this week's episode discussions yet, but I know there are threads discussing the Milgram experiments, and we should be talking about other social-psych experiments.

Within the framework of that body of research and theory, the ending and Jack's reaction makes perfect sense.

Creme, here's a link to the Rolling Stone article: http://marx.se/?p=531

Thank you!

Also, if anybody has direct quotes or links to JJ's or Damon's response to Fury that would be awesome. We'll copy these to the Interviews section of the Long Lost List so we can pull them up for easy reference in the future. (For more information on the LLL, see the link in my siggy line).

* Though Hurley not telling ANYONE about the numbers in over 5 weeks is a huge stretch, especially after he sees them on the hatch, and tries to intervene, and reveals he knows the numbers, but not what he used them for, to Jack, and then to not speak up loudly, by some sort of explanation about the numbers specifically, instead of just mentioning that they don't know what they do, blah, blah. I mean, he's already told Jack, so why not also tell the other 3. He was running towards DYNAMITE in his desire to stop an action because of the numbers, but not do anything the next time? That's simply, to me, unbelievable.

EXACTLY.

At risk of sounding competely repetitive, this is completely in line with the concept of learned helplessness. He's tried to prevent bad things from happening, he keeps getting zapped. Now he's just taking the zap, it's easier to do that than to expend more energy trying to avoid the zap.

Brickyard said:


I actually really liked the ending. I haven't had much chance to explore this week's episode discussions yet, but I know there are threads discussing the Milgram experiments, and we should be talking about other social-psych experiments.

Within the framework of that body of research and theory, the ending and Jack's reaction makes perfect sense.

I agree. I think the trite, chiche`d ending was exactly on point.

It's not real. It can't be. It's too overdone. It's too chiche`. This is crazy and I'm not going to be a party to it !

But ... what if ... just this once ... it only appeared chiche` and actually was true.

Can't ... take ... that ... chance ... must ... press ... button ...

* Though Hurley not telling ANYONE about the numbers in over 5 weeks is a huge stretch, especially after he sees them on the hatch, and tries to intervene, and reveals he knows the numbers, but not what he used them for, to Jack, and then to not speak up loudly, by some sort of explanation about the numbers specifically, instead of just mentioning that they don't know what they do, blah, blah. I mean, he's already told Jack, so why not also tell the other 3. He was running towards DYNAMITE in his desire to stop an action because of the numbers, but not do anything the next time? That's simply, to me, unbelievable.

EXACTLY.

Didn't Hurley tell another character about his lottery win and the other character's facial reaction was like, "Okay, and I am the King of Englsnd." Maybe we'll see in the upcoming episode, "Everybody Hates Hugo" why he might prefer to keep hush-hush on his lucky winnings. I use the word, "lucky", loosely.

My problem was why Hurley was part of the group that went to the hatch in the first place. I mean like, when they got to the hatch what were they expecting to find when they opened it? An escalator?

To tell the truth, them seeking refuge in the hatch in the first place seemed a bit illogical to me. One would think the characters would figure that The Others, whom Danielle spoke of, could be in it? Or other bad and nasty things might lurk in there. And they risked their lives carrying the dynamite sticks to then open a hatch and face these other potential risks. I didn't get that.

Having said this, I still like this show alot, though three episodes in it it still has not reached the great level of quality found in season one (that season set the bar so high, the creative team will face this difficult challenge the rest of the show's run). I don't think LOST has jumped the shark, although IMHO the Ana Lucia character may be our Ted McGintley moment (character/casting that is not quite right for the show's format).

To me LOST is still the best show on TV, even if there has been a bit of decline from season one. I am glad there are people like you, vanzack, voicing your reservations, but am a tinge sad that you are totally giving up on the show. I still think LOST is able to reach the great level of quality it had in season one.

Sorry for the serial posting. I had to catch up ;)

I had an epiphany in the middle of another sleepless night pondering the problems faced by those of us who like to critically evaluate this show. Anytime somebody starts a thread or a post that involves criticism, loyalists pull out the flame-throwers and complain they are sick of reading the negativity.

So let's start our own "club" with consistent and clearly labeled threads every episode that the loyalists can easily avoid should they choose not to engage in this sort of critical debate.

I propose that we start a new group called

C.R.I.T.I.C. L.O.S.T.
(Critical Reviewers Interested in Theoretically Investigating Creative License On Serial Television)

We can have a episdoe thread every week named something along the lines of:

2:03 Cave of Critical Evaluation and Episode Complaint

or to be less wordy, we could just title it
"C.R.I.T.I.C. L.O.S.T. Discussion: Episode Name"

Then we could add a disclaimer at the top of the very first post every time that says something along the lines of:

Warning: This thread will discuss constructive criticism, complaints and continuity errors on Lost. If you are not interested in reading or participating constructively in such a discussion, please skip this thread.

So. Anybody interested?

I don't have time to manage a Group Ship type list but I'll gladly be the first to sign up and actively participate in the discussions every week!

(If somebody does start something like this, please PM a link to me).

Even Mr. Lindelhof acknowledges that they were taking a big risk with the way the Hatch plot is running.

The first acid test is “the hatch,” the enigmatic portal in the ground opened in last season’s finale. The first three episodes of this season take place in the seven hours after the hatch opens; none of the Lost actors will say what’s inside, but they agree it’s very trippy. “Lindelof says, “It will either be viewed as supercool or as the most colossally bad decision in the history of televison.” http://marx.se/?p=531

Creme, I don't mind critiques of the show as long as there isn't a thread labeled Worst Episode Ever. It's not even that I mind the idea of that thread title, it's just overused.

I enjoy reading these critiques of Lost and they open my mind to the different views of the episodes. I find it interesting that us fans still have various interpretations and impressions of the individual episodes. I'm also gald that this thread didn't turn into a huge flame war, but got into some really good critical analysis of the epsiode. Kudos to most of the posters in this thread for taking a mature approach to the critique of this episode.

I can relate to being irritated by overused phrases, though I appreciate clearly labeled and even repetitively themed thread titles with each episode. (i.e. people know to look for "LLL Observation Thread" or "Philosophy 101" threads). I should think that people not interested in criticism or irritated by theads titles "Worst Ever" would simply avoid those threads.

Every week we also see a "Best Ever" thread. I mean, so what? If you don't want to read and participate, then don't.

(Aside: I am supremely irritated by the overuse of the word "brutha" right now.)

My experience has been that some of the most valuable episode and character analyses come out of critical threads, even when they are started by someone who is so thoroughly frustrated that they are venting they are ready to leave the show.

I'm also really glad this didn't devolve into a flame war. I really half expected that by the time I got to the end that would happen and I'd see more bannings this week.

(Malachy: My candle is still burning in anticipation of your return. I hope they are following the Geneva Convention during your detention at Security.)

At risk of sounding competely repetitive, this is completely in line with the concept of learned helplessness. He's tried to prevent bad things from happening, he keeps getting zapped. Now he's just taking the zap, it's easier to do that than to expend more energy trying to avoid the zap.


I think Hurley is becoming fatalistic about the numbers. For at least a year he has tried to track down info on them, tried to thwart them, stop them, get around them and explain them. Nothing has helped. He has tried more than once on the island to do something about them and it didn't help. Nobody listens to him.

He tried to stop the explosion and they stopped him. Do you really think telling them that while in a mental ward he got these numbers that are evil or unlucky would have changed Locke's mind?

The poor guy told Jack, probably because the man is a doctor and he thought if anyone would listen it might be him. He was sadly wrong.

He seems to have given up trying very hard.

(Aside: I am supremely irritated by the overuse of the word "brutha" right now.)

lol :laugh:


My experience has been that some of the most valuable episode and character analyses come out of critical threads, even when they are started by someone who is so thoroughly frustrated that they are venting they are ready to leave the show.

I'm also really glad this didn't devolve into a flame war. I really half expected that by the time I got to the end that would happen and I'd see more bannings this week.

(Malachy: My candle is still burning in anticipation of your return. I hope they are following the Geneva Convention during your detention at Security.)

Agreed, that's why I read them even if I don't always agree with the view points. A thread like this has given me a lot of insight into the episode that I hadn't thought of. And I am also eagerly awaiting Malachy's return. He is one of my favorite posters, and I can't wait to continue reading his ideas.

BTW. On the subject of title. You are right the best of title is also overdone. I think my first post on this thread was the observation that every week some people love the episode and some people hate the episode, which is confirmed by the Worst/Best Episode thread titles. I don't really care what the threads are called and I can understand how the Best Ever threads can be just as annoying. I agree that it is easier to find the LLL thread and Philosophy threads, so I think your idea of a repeat title is a good one to let people know where to go to make their critiques.

I have to leave for a whlie but I'll return to this conversation later. Does anybody know if there are threads/discussions on learned helplessness already started? If not, I'll dig up some theory links.

It's telling that looking down the first couple of pages in this forum today there are a lot of complaining type threads. A number of fans, more than usually post here, are frustrated right now.

Personally, (as I posted on another thread) I'm having a much harder time with information overload than anything else right now. Especially after trying to slog through just a few threads here. I feel like too much was thrown at us in two episodes, and I wish they had wrapped up last season with this sort of cliff hanger so we could have digested and investigated all summer long.

The poor writers are between quite the rock and hard place. Many are calling for more answers (I think they must be blind to the sheer number of clues all over the place) and some are crying for things to slow down.

Anyway, re: your comments on Hurly shouting out, "This is all crazy!"... that does seem like a normal response for a person to reach in a breaking point. There's a very real possibility that Hurley also believes he's crazy and in the middle of a breakdown.
I didn't get the impression that Hurley was in the middle of a breakdown at that moment at all. He seemed completely in control of his emotions, unlike when he was running at the hatch. The way he was going to let Locke enter in the incorrect code was very calculating IMO.

Creme, I don't mind critiques of the show as long as there isn't a thread labeled Worst Episode Ever. It's not even that I mind the idea of that thread title, it's just overused.
In that case, a consistent thread title format should be used for each episode's critiques, praise, etc. "2:3 Orientation: Thoughts and Reactions." That way all views can be expressed and it would cut down on extraneous threads.

PG said:
BTW. On the subject of title. You are right the best of title is also overdone. I think my first post on this thread was the observation that every week some people love the episode and some people hate the episode, which is confirmed by the Worst/Best Episode thread titles. I don't really care what the threads are called and I can understand how the Best Ever threads can be just as annoying. I agree that it is easier to find the LLL thread and Philosophy threads, so I think your idea of a repeat title is a good one to let people know where to go to make their critiques.

I thought of suggesting to the admin here that they create a forum for Critics, a sort of Critical Corner or Cliffs of Criticism, sicne so many members seem to get so genuinely upset whenever we talk about negative things.

If I had a dime for everytime I've read something along the lines of, "If you don't like it, then leave..."

I decided to hold off on the suggestion though, because it doesn't seem fair to segregate critical thinkers and I believe more often than not these are really productive discussions, even when flames are involved.

In that case, a consistent thread title format should be used for each episode's critiques, praise, etc. "2:3 Orientation: Thoughts and Reactions." That way all views can be expressed and it would cut down on extraneous threads.

We could try that but I suspect that trying to force the Loyalists and Critics to hang out on the same playground could result in some pretty nasty knock down, drag 'em outs. This thread avoided that level of disintegration, probably in large part because vanz refused to get overly defensive of his personal self.

At any rate, the sorts of evaluation and analysis that come out of "Best of" vs. "Worst of" type threads are very different, because the people who gravitate toward them are analyszing the show through different filters.

Of course, that's also a good argument for combining the threads.

At any rate, we won't be able to control what and where people post.

My hope in a consistently labelled thread for Episode Criticism is simply that people who are irritated by these sorts of discussions will stay away so we can avoid the flame wars. I don't want any more critics and rebels to be banned because they get defensive and caught up in a fight.

Didn't I say I need to leave now? Stop making me post!

After thinking about the ending a bit more, I think I like it even less.

I don't mind the hatch, Desmond, and all that, but the way Locke reacted to the computer, timer and orientation video.

For starters, even if he tried to, I have a very hard time believing that anyone could do the same action, in solitude, every hour and 48 minutes, for 3 straight years. Not once did he get more than 90 or so minutes of uninterrupted sleep, for over a 1000 days. He'd be much further gone (in terms of sanity or health) than he appeared to be, unless, of course, those injections are some sort of help against mental and physical deterioration.

But even accepting that Desmond could have entered the numbers on time over 13,000 times in a row without a single mistake, it should have been so totally obvious to Locke (who I had thought was relatively sane) that pushing the button wasn't "saving the world". To take that literally, the least that would happen if Desmond (or any member of a Hatch Team) failed to enter it in time would be something along the lines of electricity not functioning as we know it, so life as we know it was fundamentally changed. The other extreme would be something like a new Deluge, as when the numbers weren't entered, the magnetic field on the island started some strange reaction that triggered a huge volcano or underwater earthquake, which would lead to massive tsunami's and the Earth's air heating, and very little livable land left for the few people who survived the disaster.

If either of those (or something within the range of each, or similar) were the potential result of the code not being entered, you can bet that those in the know wouldn't have left it up to a circa 1980's PC to be manually handled by a two man team who were isolated from anyone else. Or at least they would have sent relief teams regularly, but most likely would have set up an automated system to punch the code in, and be manned by a fully staffed military base to ensure that the code got entered (or whatever the result of the code getting entered happened).

So it should have been obvious to Locke that he wasn't "saving the world" by getting Jack to hit execute. I can accept that there's a chance that entering the code was "saving the island", which is uncharted and seemingly inhabited by those who happened upon it by chance alone. But that's it.

And I believe Hurley told Charlie only that he was a millionaire (perhaps also that he won the lottery), but he didn't mention the numbers as far as I recall. And Charlie replied sarcastically, implying he didn't believe him. But I still don't buy that he would risk life and limb by running towards lit dynamite to stop an action due to the numbers being present, but then do nothing the next day, especially after telling Jack about his experience with the numbers.

And thinking more of the final confrontation, while I think Hurley should have said something, I also think Said would have spoken up (he does that) after having rushed to the Hatch, fixed the computer (or transformer), and gotten everything done in time, only to witness Locke and Jack have some force of will battle. Before it got to the point it did (under 10 seconds), he would have casually walked over and hit execute, and said something along the lines of not having come all that way and repaired the computer for nothing, and then asked what the timer did.

Wow, a 25 page thread. Cool. No way I could read it all, so I will post me reactions to Vanzak's initial feelings.

I love this show, but the ease of which they can now freely enter and leave the hatch via a font door keeps nagging at me that it IS lazy writing, and a cop out so Kate could go get Sayid quickly enough.

All I needed was ashot of Kate having to pull down heavy growth or somehting to show us that door could never have been seen from the outside. They never bothered.

And the fact is, the show is different this year. The entire pacing, and even the "purpose" of the show has drastically changed. I don't want to watch a show about Lock and Jack arguing, and now, typing in the code ever 108 minutes.

Last year, Locke was larger than life, he was very cool. Now he is a lab rat reduced to an instant obsession with resetting this countdown. I think he would have recognized it as a damn game instantly.

I also think Locke would be able to overcome the voices he is hearing in his head.

Jack was written to be a jerk last year, but he was smarter than this. And the whole Desmond situation is very forced into the story, and very contrived. I LOVE the character of Desmond though, and don't mind the contrivance, but we have to acknowledge it for what it is.

I love the show, but I will not deny there are some problems with the show this year. I think the fact the JJ is off making films has adversely affected the show.

Noeland----------------

We could try that but I suspect that trying to force the Loyalists and Critics to hang out on the same playground could result in some pretty nasty knock down, drag 'em outs. This thread avoided that level of disintegration, probably in large part because vanz refused to get overly defensive of his personal self.


Well, I guess you could say I'm a loyalist, since I've never had any major complaints with the show or the episodes. But I still like to read the critical threads. I think separating us is not a good idea.

Last season when the first of the Worst Episode Ever threads started to pop up, I was defensive. I will admit that. I was one of the people that would say oh, your being too impatient, they will tell us in time, just relax and wait for the story to unfold. But, (I'd like to think) over time I've learned to read the threads and critiques and not take it personally. If there are well written critiques of the show, then great. I will admit that I was worried about the opeing post to this thread and I thought at first it may be an invitation to be attacked, but I was wrong. And then I realized that I am not the most eloquent writter either, so if I was trying to express the same thing, I may not have done any better (and frankly, I may have done worse). I was afraid this thread would errupt into a flame war, but instead it evolved into a well written debate over the episode. I think if we could use this thread as a model, we could have some very healthy debates on future episodes of the show. I think both loyalists and critics should be able to post in the thread and if it appears that a flame war will errupt, we should ignore the instigators and continue w/ a heathy debate.

Edited to respond to Noeland post
Last year, Locke was larger than life, he was very cool. Now he is a lab rat reduced to an instant obsession with resetting this countdown. I think he would have recognized it as a damn game instantly.


I agree that Locke was larger than life at first, but I also realized last season that he is a very sad man. I forget which episode it was, but the whole back story with his father and his temper tantrums made me realize that he was not this larger than life character that I thought he was a first. I think his character is even more interesting now than I ever thought it would be in the begining, even if he is sad. It's kind of like realizing that your parents are just human.

We could have a 'nitpicker's' thread.

That's where you're just a little bit criticle.

Where you like the episode but some things just 'niggle at you.

While I like the overall scope of the show there are some things that I just don't undestand..and no I'm not talking about 'why aren't the women more hairy kind of things. Things like "How did Locke know about the French transmission?" "How did Boone know the Pilot died'...kind of things.

Doesn't mean you're a loyalist or a detractor. It just means either you are paying close attention or you hope that there is someone out there who caught something you missed.

Vanzack, I agree with you. There is no way normal people would react to these situations as the 815's, but if they did the show would not be as addicting as it is.
Continue the insanity!

Wow, a 25 page thread. Cool. No way I could read it all, so I will post me reactions to Vanzak's initial feelings.

I love this show, but the ease of which they can now freely enter and leave the hatch via a font door keeps nagging at me that it IS lazy writing, and a cop out so Kate could go get Sayid quickly enough.

All I needed was ashot of Kate having to pull down heavy growth or somehting to show us that door could never have been seen from the outside. They never bothered.

Yeah, that kind of bugged me too.

And the fact is, the show is different this year. The entire pacing, and even the "purpose" of the show has drastically changed. I don't want to watch a show about Lock and Jack arguing, and now, typing in the code ever 108 minutes.

I say, keep the faith here. The writers have some very cool directions they can take with this. I don't think they'll drag out the countdown plotline too far; if anything they've done the opposite in the past. (Example: The Ethan storyline last year.)

Last year, Locke was larger than life, he was very cool. Now he is a lab rat reduced to an instant obsession with resetting this countdown. I think he would have recognized it as a damn game instantly.

He was a lab rat last year, too, I think he is just starting to realize it now.

I also think Locke would be able to overcome the voices he is hearing in his head.

Jack was written to be a jerk last year, but he was smarter than this. And the whole Desmond situation is very forced into the story, and very contrived. I LOVE the character of Desmond though, and don't mind the contrivance, but we have to acknowledge it for what it is.

I agree about the contrivance, and my suspension of disbelief is being stretched pretty far. But, it was almost worth it for the wonderful sequence where Jack is struck by the impossible coincidence of meeting a guy he once ran into in a stadium, halfway around the world in an underground quarantine bunker, and the way it shakes his convinctions about a rational world to the point where he's not sure enough that all Locke's "destiny" talk is bunk to refrain from pressing the button.

And Jack's not a jerk, he just intense. Sawyer is a jerk. :)

I love the show, but I will not deny there are some problems with the show this year. I think the fact the JJ is off making films has adversely affected the show.

Noeland----------------
I don't think it's really been adversely affected, but I can't forget the turn that Alias took for the worse. I hope that doesn't happen here.

And Jack's not a jerk, he just intense. Sawyer is a jerk.

Hey! :(

Where did Vanzack go? :) Hope he isn't really gone.

Had to laugh about the front door thing... I had the same thought. Glad I wasn't the only one. It all seemed to easy. And they discovered a BURIED HATCH but not a really obvious front door??? I hope that they address that further. I DO actualy agree that was a lazy bit of writing. Also, they have to address the hatch as well... are they going to bury it again? If they are afraid of the others, they can't exactly leave it as a gaping hole in the ground so that they can be snuck up on from the back.

But sorry, that is beside the point.

Creme - I like the idea of clearly labeling a thread so that people know it will be a critique, not just a praise, of the content of an episode. I dont' think that you will be able to get away from the ranters, though. I think they will appear anyway. I like the idea of just ignoring them and contiuning the discussion. But I must say that I am getting frustrated at the number of threads that are reduced to meaningless, nasty squabbles that don't really serve any purpose.

I do have to say that I agree with Brickyard, that Sayid would have gone ahead and just pushed the button. I expected him to, even when Jack told him no. That is the ONE thing that I did think was out of character. I was not surprised that Kate and Hurley stood by while Jack and Locke hashed it out, but I was surprised about Sayid.

Why oh why do people keep posting that they're gonna stop watching? Why don't they just stop and leave the rest of us who enjoy the show alone? :rolleyes:

Delete double post. Sorry. See response to Drake below.

We could have a 'nitpicker's' thread.

That's where you're just a little bit criticle.

Where you like the episode but some things just 'niggle at you.

While I like the overall scope of the show there are some things that I just don't undestand..and no I'm not talking about 'why aren't the women more hairy kind of things. Things like "How did Locke know about the French transmission?" "How did Boone know the Pilot died'...kind of things.



If it makes you feel better they had a deleted scene on the DVD's that showed (someone help me here) talking about Charlie (the English guy) telling everybody about the pilot.:)

After this weeks backstory I think we can see that Locke appeared larger than life last season. Now we know that this is a man who has a (persumably) phone sex person call herself by a girlfriend's name and sits outside his evil daddy's house even thought it only hurts himself. He seems to have an obsessive personality that is damaging to him.

He has been obsessed since finding the hatch. With getting into it and now with doing whatever needs doing inside. He doesn't question that it is his destiny. The obsession didn't start with the computer, it just grew to encompass it.