Really, I don't. Why, you ask? Three words:

The Black Rock

Whatever caused that ship to crash happened a long long time ago. The Dharma Initative wasn't on the island then, it started in the 70's. So, this suggests whatever is special about this island has nothing to do with Dharma. Dharma didn't bring anything to the island, it came looking for something that was already there.

You also have to think in real-world terms. We're only in episode 27, and if the series goes for 6 seasons that would mean there are still about 120 more episodes to go! To give away a glimpse of the full explination this early would be somewhat nuts, as you'd start to lose interested viewers quite early on (since they already can figure it out themselves; everything just reaffirms their theory). We've only really uncovered the top two layers, and I imagine many more are underneath.

Really, this all hinges on the Black Rock. Without it, we can go either way: something mystical on the island or something created by Dharma. However, with the Black Rock in place, there is definitely something on the island that the Dharma Initiative was pursuing, which should be way more interesting than some wacky experiments.

Thoughts?

bloody brilliant!
but maybe the Black Rock justcrashed and has nothing to do with Hanso / the island.

I was thinking the same thing...that the one thing that feel really out of place is the blackrock. So here's my thoughts....Hanso sets up shop on this island...they are entrenched for a few years doing their experiments....then they discover the black rock....how it got there....etc. Maybe a disease...maybe some mystical elements.....but whatever it was wreaked havoc on the hanso team...merged/destroyed it's experiments to where they either no longer existed or became sentient...any thoughts?

I hope the Black Rock wasn't just a contrivance to provide a source of dynamite, as there are many questions marks, including some anachronisms, concerning it. One of the things that perplexes me in particular is its condition: a wooden sailing ship tossed onto the island by a violent tsunami (assuming such) at least 100+ years ago and yet so remarkably intact?

I certainly agree that this island has a longer history than Dharma alone. Perhaps the Black Rock was even sailing towards the island on purpose - reasons yet unknown -before disaster befell it; and I assume here that the ship's fate was not itself due to some design, as flight 815's may well have been.

I agree. I think Hanso is only one part of a bigger story.

How do we know the age of said Black Rock?? It could be a replica ship. It could have been one of the first ships sent by Hanso/Dharma to supply the Island. I agree..there is SO much more than meets the blinking eye on this place..I know it is hard...but we need to be patient.

HURRY UP WEDNESDAY!!!!

How do we know the age of said Black Rock?? It could be a replica ship. It could have been one of the first ships sent by Hanso/Dharma to supply the Island. I agree..there is SO much more than meets the blinking eye on this place..I know it is hard...but we need to be patient.

HURRY UP WEDNESDAY!!!!

For a futuristic research company, I doubt they would head over there in a wooden ship :D

Plus, the dynamite was aged enough that it had to be older than Dharma.

Glad some people agree, though. I think a lot of people are getting blindsided by the hatch discovery and are jumping to conslusions. We definitely don't know even part of the whole story :)

I hope the Black Rock wasn't just a contrivance to provide a source of dynamite, as there are many questions marks, including some anachronisms, concerning it. One of the things that perplexes me in particular is its condition: a wooden sailing ship tossed onto the island by a violent tsunami (assuming such) at least 100+ years ago and yet so remarkably intact?

And the same story with the lostaways. Definitely a running theme of things getting sucked into the island... A least there's a good slogan there:

Lost Island: It sucks!

What I am confused by is the number of people who think that the Orientation filmstrip and the Hanso Foundation somehow answers so many questions. For me, it just raised even more. I think the island itself has some mystery, and I agree that the Black Rock's presence there is curious. But the big reveal of Dharma and Hanso starts all sorts of questions. What do we really know about them? Who are they? What are they really doing? How did they get there? Where else are they? What is on the other filmstrips? Where are the other stations? Are they on the island, too? What do they do? What are they researching? Why the countdown clock? What does the clock do? What was the "incident?" Why did the plane crash? Why is the Dharma logo on the plane (http://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tabularasa5302gv.jpg)? Did Hanso cause the crash? Why? Why did these people survive, and not others? Who are the others? Why are they on the island? Why are they taking kids? and on and on and on...

To me, the filmstrip and the revelation of the Hanso Foundation just opened up a huge can of worms.

The worms are everywhere with that film strip...The Degroots to me were the man and woman on the boat that took Walt...I think season one was spring training and now it is game on...HAVE THEY GIVEN US ENOUGH TO TALK ABOUT?!?!?!?

The orientation film said that the dharma foundation were there investigating the unusual electromagnetic activity "in that sector". Electromagnetism can explain most of the current mysteries on the island like locke walking, hallucinations (both visual and audial, the E.M. monster with smoky swan-like tendrils etc...

But, the black rock gives the series more depth than we realise. s#*t has been happening there for a looooong time. The source of the EM could well be the cause. What I want to know is:

What is the source of the EM? How long has it been there? Were Dharma's investigation of it the cause of the incident? If not, why is it walled up in Desmond's Shag-Pad?

I can imagine the next few seasons showing us the after-effects of this "siren-like" island. 5 sets of people at least have washed up on this island, leaving behind their crews and other objects like the stuff rousseau had in her shack. Wonder what else is out there?

The Mama's & Papa's eh? Desmond? I knew it :)

or at least Mama Cass...any ham sandwiches in that bunker? (I know that was bad)

I have to agree that Hanso/Dharma is not the most important find but it is and important one for this season. It appears (imho) that Hanso?Dharma is there to find and study all the mysteries of the island. Somebody found or created this eyeland a long time ago. The makers of that orientation film were just there to find out what is going on and had a mishap of some sorts and have abandoned all operations with the exceptions of the ones they cannot shut down without causing an even bigger mishap.

The thing that gets me about the Black Rock is that the dang ship is in the middle of the island.

The thing that gets me about the Black Rock is that the dang ship is in the middle of the island.

The area where the Black Rock is may not have always been the middle of the island. The island may have sank and resurfaced, and very well could have done this many times over a period of many years. Remember when Sayid commented about the tide not being normal?

The area where the Black Rock is may not have always been the middle of the island. The island may have sank and resurfaced, and very well could have done this many times over a period of many years. Remember when Sayid commented about the tide not being normal?

Yeah, but would dynamite have survived to be able to detonate if it had been submerged over and over?

Really, I don't. Why, you ask? Three words:

The Black Rock

Whatever caused that ship to crash happened a long long time ago. The Dharma Initiative wasn't on the island then, it started in the 70's. So, this suggests whatever is special about this island has nothing to do with Dharma. Dharma didn't bring anything to the island, it came looking for something that was already there.

You also have to think in real-world terms. We're only in episode 27, and if the series goes for 6 seasons that would mean there are still about 120 more episodes to go! To give away a glimpse of the full explanation this early would be somewhat nuts, as you'd start to lose interested viewers quite early on (since they already can figure it out themselves; everything just reaffirms their theory). We've only really uncovered the top two layers, and I imagine many more are underneath.

Really, this all hinges on the Black Rock. Without it, we can go either way: something mystical on the island or something created by Dharma. However, with the Black Rock in place, there is definitely something on the island the Dharma Initiative that they were pursuing that should be way more interesting than some wacky experiments.

Thoughts?

I agree that the bigger question is, what is it about the island that made it the best choice for the Dharma Initiative? I believe Alvar put up the Initiative as a public face to hide his personal interest in the island and it's secrets. It could be the strange magnetic properties of the island or something we haven't been shown yet but I doubt a munitions magnet would be very interested in running a scientific Woodstock. There is something about that island but we probably won't find out until the last 10 minutes of the series finale. But I can wait. :biggrin:

Are they on the island, too?

We know there's at least one that has a radio transmitter. They most likely all are, as that makes things easy for the writers. Also, they refer to "*this* sector", indicating there are others on the island. So, with other sectors come other facilities :)

Why did the plane crash? Why is the Dharma logo on the plane (http://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tabularasa5302gv.jpg)? Did Hanso cause the crash? Why? Why did these people survive, and not others?

It's been said that we'll know why the plane crashed by the end of this season, so these sets of questions should be answered for us in 7 months or so :)

I'll go with the fact that the Hanso and the film aren't the end of the mysteries.

The way I see it is this: the island predated everything there, on the island.

Things have been crashing there for some time: at least two planes and two boats. Smugglers and 815, black rock and danielles ship.

The Hanso Foundation chose this island. Maybe or maybe not knowing all that stuff. If they did, they chose it BECAUSE of it. If not, that's what caused the 'incident' and the Initiative is just another chapter in the longer book that is the islands mythology.

Yeah, but would dynamite have survived to be able to detonate if it had been submerged over and over?

Its a ship. Why/How would have it been submerged? The island may have been submerged and/or the tides are being affected by the projects, but I don't think the ship itself was sunk. If there are very high tides/floods, then the ship could have been pushed inland. Just look at where some boats ended up after the hurricanes.

Ever think the black rock was Desmonds ship from his racearoundtheworld?

Hmm...from what I remember hearing about The Black Rock (I NEVER saw that episode... dunno why), there were people shackled up in the ship and also, why would Desmond need dynamite on a race around the world...? And if it was a "solar" race around the world, it doesn't make sense that The Black Rock would be his ship...

Either way, I believe the dynamite can be submerged and resubmerged in water and still work. I know the fuses would still work, anyway. Ever drop a lit firecracker in the water? Still goes boom...

Really, I don't. Why, you ask? Three words:

The Black Rock

...However, with the Black Rock in place, there is definitely something on the island that the Dharma Initiative was pursuing, which should be way more interesting than some wacky experiments.

Thoughts?

Nice post....I think you are probably correct. I wonder though if it was something that was on the Black Rock that was "set free" once the ship crashed on craphole island? There seems to be a connection between the island and Africa.....

Well see.

Really, I don't. Why, you ask? Three words:

The Black Rock

Whatever caused that ship to crash happened a long long time ago. The Dharma Initative wasn't on the island then, it started in the 70's. So, this suggests whatever is special about this island has nothing to do with Dharma. Dharma didn't bring anything to the island, it came looking for something that was already there.
__________________________________________________ _____

Hanso started his activities prior to WWII and so he was funding the Dharma Initiative way before the 1970's. It is obvious the Black Rock was on the island before Hanso, but that only means many ships have wrecked on the island over the time span the island has been in existence.

One of the projects the Hanso funded was the Electromagnetic Research Initiative which could be the way Hanso's people could cause the ship wrecks and plane crashes on the island as their project was developing. What better way to test what they had made?

If you recall, Jack's key on his neck was drawn to the electro-magnetic generator Sayid found in the hatch.
__________________________________________________ __
Quote:
You also have to think in real-world terms. We're only in episode 27, and if the series goes for 6 seasons that would mean there are still about 120 more episodes to go! To give away a glimpse of the full explination this early would be somewhat nuts, as you'd start to lose interested viewers quite early on (since they already can figure it out themselves; everything just reaffirms their theory). We've only really uncovered the top two layers, and I imagine many more are underneath.
__________________________________________________ _____

I think we are seeing the story of Lost starting some 7-10 years ago because so many of the things we have seen on the show come from that time period. For example, the comic Walt found with the polar bear and which Hurley brought on the plane came out in 1997. The milk carton Hugo found in the bunker had a photo of Walt on it. Milk cartons were used to publicize missing children in the same time period. So what Lost is is the story of the plane crash and the existence/happenings of the survivors thereafter. At the rate the show is being paced, it will take them 8 years to come up to the present. :cool:

This seems as good a forum as any to post these thoughts:

I agree that Hanso/Dharma is not the key to the mystery of the island. Certainly they had a presence on the island... at least in the past. Obviously, the hatch and the food come from them. I have difficulty, though, with the notion that some grand experiment on the Lostaways is taking place currently. How evil is this organization to conduct an experiment on innocent, unwilling subjects who were just trying to fly to Los Angeles? People are hurt and/or dying and Hanso is just observing and taking notes? The orientation film was copyrighted 1980. What kind of experiment requires over 25 years of testing? If it IS an experiment, can you imagine the lawsuits that will result when all is revealed? Hanso will be bankrupted in two seconds.

Quote:

How evil is this organization to conduct an experiment on innocent, unwilling subjects who were just trying to fly to Los Angeles? People are hurt and/or dying and Hanso is just observing and taking notes? The orientation film was copyrighted 1980. What kind of experiment requires over 25 years of testing? If it IS an experiment, can you imagine the lawsuits that will result when all is revealed? Hanso will be bankrupted in two seconds.
__________________________________________________ _____

It appears from the Hanso Foudation website that Alvar Hanso was a fanatic. He came to believe in the righteousness of his cause. After all his scientific studies were designed to "improve the human race". I imagine he would feel, like any other fanatic, that the ends justifies the means and is it a small price to pay, hurting or killing a few human subjects, for what he believes will be the betterment of man kind.

If you look at the projects Hanso was funding it could well be that though he may be dead, he and the Dharma Initiative are able to carry on their experiments using those who have passed away. One of the things he was working on was the extension of life.

If you recall, one of the books in the bunker was The Turn of the Screw. In that book by Henry James a governess is afraid two children are being used by "ghosts" to continue their existence. These ghosts are of people, one of whom was the former governess of the children who died under questionable circumstances. (See a synopsis and comments regarding The Turn of the Screw here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turn_of_the_Screw ) So could it be that Hanso is using Desmond and now the castaways to continue their work? In the book there is a theme of the corruption of the innocent. (See http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/screw/themes.html) Hanso could well be using our innocent castaways, as the ghosts in The Turn of The Screw, used the children.

I doubt Hanso cared/cares about lawsuits against him. First you have have to find him to serve him. As a fanatic, he is driven by his "cause" and anyone against him would be considered not important or expendable.

I agree with you timdorr, the mysteries of the island pre-date Hanso, and probably are what attracted Hanso to set up shop on the island. As for why the Black Rock is in the middle of the island, I was wondering if it was somehow transported to the island like the navy carrier that was allegedly transported through time and space during the Philadelphia Experiment (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=7720&highlight=philadelphia). The Westinghouse label is in the hatch, and George Westinghouse was a friend of Nikola Tesla, who's magnetic Tesla coils were the allegedly the basis of the science involved in the Philadelphia Experiment. That would explain why a ship was in the middle of the island. But then again, it could have come from Dorothy's tornado....cuz we all know they are not in Kansas anymore.:wink1:

Please read my thread "Theory on what is really happening on lost" and tell me what you think. It is long, so be patient, please. Ginbun :)

This seems as good a forum as any to post these thoughts:

I agree that Hanso/Dharma is not the key to the mystery of the island. Certainly they had a presence on the island... at least in the past. Obviously, the hatch and the food come from them. I have difficulty, though, with the notion that some grand experiment on the Lostaways is taking place currently. How evil is this organization to conduct an experiment on innocent, unwilling subjects who were just trying to fly to Los Angeles? People are hurt and/or dying and Hanso is just observing and taking notes? The orientation film was copyrighted 1980. What kind of experiment requires over 25 years of testing? If it IS an experiment, can you imagine the lawsuits that will result when all is revealed? Hanso will be bankrupted in two seconds. One nice thing, we don't seem to have any lawyers on our 'island' :rolleyes:

I really liked reading this thread. Just for fun: Very Stephen King Dark Tower. The black rock is the dark tower??? (I just bought book 7, the final in the series)

I think you guys are really onto something. Dharma/Hanso knew the island was special BEFORE they went there. MORE special than just the magnet stuff.

I like thinking about the island as a character and you just made the character a heck of a lot more interesting. So far I have Locke saying that he looked into the soul of the island and seeing beauty and Locke eating the "fruit of the island". So far, he is the only one who interacts with the character "Island". I think Eko knows more about this too.

Has anyone done any research into seeing whether or not the creators have devolped a history for that ship like they've done with Hanso and Dharma? I'm sure your all aware of the websites that exist for these companies, and others, and the clues that they're dropping. Might be worth checking on.

One of the more interesting speculations that stretches this supposed conspircy/experiment by DHARMA/HANSO is the possibility that the ship may have somehow started it all - the first page in an inimical, elaborate enterprise; and one that could well span generations of minds and agencies linked as one Machiavellian whole.

Perhaps the hapless "slaves" were the experiment's first unwitting victims?

Really, I don't. Why, you ask? Three words:

The Black Rock

Whatever caused that ship to crash happened a long long time ago. The Dharma Initative wasn't on the island then, it started in the 70's. So, this suggests whatever is special about this island has nothing to do with Dharma. Dharma didn't bring anything to the island, it came looking for something that was already there.

You also have to think in real-world terms. We're only in episode 27, and if the series goes for 6 seasons that would mean there are still about 120 more episodes to go! To give away a glimpse of the full explination this early would be somewhat nuts, as you'd start to lose interested viewers quite early on (since they already can figure it out themselves; everything just reaffirms their theory). We've only really uncovered the top two layers, and I imagine many more are underneath.

Really, this all hinges on the Black Rock. Without it, we can go either way: something mystical on the island or something created by Dharma. However, with the Black Rock in place, there is definitely something on the island that the Dharma Initiative was pursuing, which should be way more interesting than some wacky experiments.

Thoughts?


Well, the HANSO video did say that they set out to explore anomalies in that location
didn't it? I assume the anomalies predate HANSO.

There is further evidence that predates Hanso/Dharma. The couple (Adam & Eve), Jack found in the caves. He said that they had to have been there for around 50 years, that would put their death somewhere in the 1950's. There was a Black and a White Rock in their pocket.

There are many layers to the mysteries of the "Island" long before Hanso'Dharma arrived. I would think that some research was done prior to the decision as to what facilities were to be placed on this "Island". IMO, All 6 stations on based on the "Island" and each is placed in a sector that had unique properties.

What I am confused by is the number of people who think that the Orientation filmstrip and the Hanso Foundation somehow answers so many questions. For me, it just raised even more. I think the island itself has some mystery, and I agree that the Black Rock's presence there is curious. But the big reveal of Dharma and Hanso starts all sorts of questions. What do we really know about them? Who are they? What are they really doing? How did they get there? Where else are they? What is on the other filmstrips? Where are the other stations? Are they on the island, too? What do they do? What are they researching? Why the countdown clock? What does the clock do? What was the "incident?" Why did the plane crash? Why is the Dharma logo on the plane (http://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tabularasa5302gv.jpg)? Did Hanso cause the crash? Why? Why did these people survive, and not others? Who are the others? Why are they on the island? Why are they taking kids? and on and on and on...

To me, the filmstrip and the revelation of the Hanso Foundation just opened up a huge can of worms.

WOW!!!

hehe

I agree...

All those questions

and then some!


---- I did see somewhere

where the ship was marked

"Plymouth"

and that it meant it left from there

more than likely carrying convicts.

U remember

the convicts to Australia program?

Here's some info re Dharma:

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=23661

Namaste

:cool:

the way i look at it, the dharma initiative and the hanso foundation came to this particular island for a reason. there was something about it that they wanted to study. and whatever that something is, it's probably what made the black rock. and probably what made the drug plane crash.

the hanso people just got on board with whatever already makes the island mystical and magical and whatnot. it is so not the explanation to the bigger thing as to what the heck is going on.

Out of interest, was the issue of the anachronous standardised "DYNAMITE" spray logo on the boxes ever resolved? That is to say, did the creators ever acknowledge it as a prop blunder? If not then this leaves many avenues for speculation still open, since it negates the assertion that the vessel must date from around the late 1800s; it could be a much older ship - or much newer, as an elaborate prop in some DHARMA experiment perhaps - simply being used as a place to hide somebody else's dynamite.

Has anyone picked up the idea that the white and black rocks might correlate to backgammon?

Has anyone picked up the idea that the white and black rocks might correlate to backgammon?

Not rocks to the backgammon,

but both to black/white theme

amongst other items.

:cool:

I spend time looking at philosophers represented (Locke, Rousssssseu - never spell that one right, lol). I've been looking for the separation of power guy, montesquie. Haven't found reference to him on the lost except that I have seen mention that he made symbols for the three branches of government. The executive branch was a ROCK. I don't know if this thread is interested in that but anyway,,,,

I definitely think this island was strange long before Hanso/Dharma showed up. I think they're responsible for the polar bears, the 'security system,' the Others, and of course the Hatch and everything else that has the ubiquitous logo pasted all over it.... but I think that's about as far as it goes. The Initiative is just one piece of a much larger puzzle.

That having been said.... I could see how Hanso/Dharma COULD be responsible for everything, including the Black Rock. One theory of mine is that the Island is a sort of 'interdimensional junkyard'.... a place where things that disappear in the Bermuda Triangle and other such areas end up. If that's true, it begs the question of what created all the time-space anomalies that these ships and planes keeping falling into, and what connects them all to the Island. It could just be naturally occuring.... but one of my other theories (very vague, this one) is that the Dharma scientists came to the Island and tampered with something they should've left alone, and that's what resulted in the Others and pushing the Button and all that good business. What if the Island was sort of a 'focal point,' an important 'junction' or something in time and space? If it was, and they disrupted that somehow with their experiments, it could've created anomalies/fissures/whatever that would spread out from the Island in all directions.... timewise AND spacewise. One of these could easily have opened up in the Atlantic two or three hundred years ago, and swallowed up the slave ship.

well put ...

many of the theories have become convoluted to the point of absurdity ... many of the literary/mythological/film/biblical references are just allusions ... just because jin met sun because of an orange dress, and locke was sucking on an orange doesn't mean that "oranges" are behind it all ...

the island was weird, dharma came and exacerbated the situation, they did damage control but it failed, the dhama folks went lord of the flies (did you see how quickly the tailies went native?), rousseau's ship came, desmond's boat crashed, the plane came down, the losties are trying to figure out the island as well as what happened dharma, etal ...

anyway, jan. 11 cant' come to soon :)

NCP - your 2nd paragraph reminds me of a recent mini-series on the Sci Fi channel about the Bermuda Triangle. The upshot of the series was that, in trying to fix the Bermuda Triangle in the current time, scientists actually created the Triangle in the past. Perhaps that is what our Dharma scientist are guilty of . Not the Berumda Triangle, but in their zeal to fix some anamoly, they actually made it worse.

By-the-by - how many people understand your screen name?

I didn't get a chance to see the series "Triangle" but heard there were a lot of ties to Lost. Don't know if that is true, but it sure has fed a number of theories. I do agree that the Black Rock has a VERY integral part to play in this somehow. I am afraid that they will just explain it as the island has just risen in the apx 150 years since it shipwrecked there....who knows.

Long days and pleasant nights, sai HonBun.... you're the first one who's said anything about it.... *winks*

This show is simply awash in 'Dark Tower' parallels.... the numbers (19), the Dharma Initiative (NCP), the Monster (Shardik), Eddie's.... err, Charlie's flashback on the plane.... if a rough-looking fellow in a chambray shirt shows up, that'll clinch it....

But yeah.... the notion of the Dharma bums disrupting things on the Island totally puts me in mind of how North Central Positronics 'replaced the magic holding the Beams w/ technology' in the DT series. Good stuff.

'And may we meet again in the place where the path ends in the clearing when all worlds end.'

Plus, the dynamite was aged enough that it had to be older than Dharma.

The dynamite could've been aged artificially.

However, I find myself in a "strange place" w.r.t. this thread. I don't think the Black Rock or the dynamite was as old as it looked. But I also don't think the dynamite was really dynamite. (I think it was radio-controlled sticks of explosive, not sensitive at all, but rigged to blow on remote command.)

And I also don't think Hanso or Dharma "is Hanso or Dharma". That is, I think the people behind this have set up Hanso & Dharma to appear to be what they are. The real organization behind it all would not reveal their actual name, if they even have one.

In other words, there are so many layers of fakery here that it's hard to describe in this context!

Robert

Quote:

How evil is this organization to conduct an experiment on innocent, unwilling subjects who were just trying to fly to Los Angeles? People are hurt and/or dying and Hanso is just observing and taking notes? The orientation film was copyrighted 1980. What kind of experiment requires over 25 years of testing? If it IS an experiment, can you imagine the lawsuits that will result when all is revealed? Hanso will be bankrupted in two seconds.
__________________________________________________ _____

It appears from the Hanso Foudation website that Alvar Hanso was a fanatic. He came to believe in the righteousness of his cause. After all his scientific studies were designed to "improve the human race". I imagine he would feel, like any other fanatic, that the ends justifies the means and is it a small price to pay, hurting or killing a few human subjects, for what he believes will be the betterment of man kind.

Or...whoever is really behind this wants to defame Alvar Hanso.

The Island was no doubt "special" before Hanso/Dharma. First of all, it had never been discovered. For an island of its size, this is amazing. Maybe something to do with the electromagnetism? Somehow, Hanso/Dharma found the island in way that didn't involve them getting shipwrecked or in an airplane crash.

On the contrary.... there could've been a crash, but somehow whoever it was got off the island and reported back to Dharma; after all, it looked as though the Rafties might very well have escaped if it hadn't been for the Others' intervention. More likely, though, I think that someone connected with Hanso discovered the Numbers transmission, and that's what led them to the island....