Where do youse think his body went? Did it fall out somewhere and the lid just closed after it landed on the island or has the island somehow brought Dr.C Shepherd back to life?:confused:
P.S
sorry if this has been posted before

It's entirely possible that Jacks father's body was never on the plane at all. They may have just told him it was to get him to stop pitching a fit at the counter.

That's probably more likely:)

RE way back TPTB said "his body was on the plane" they did not say dead body

We have 3 strange things that appear in the woods:
1) Whispers
2) Jack's Dad
3) Walt

Anybody think that these are all linked to the Others somehow? The whispers could be the others, Jack's Dad could have been brought back by the Others (he was only dead for 24-48 hours after all, and the Others could be doing biological experiments)...and Walt is definately with the Others and appears in the Woods similar to Jack's Dad.

Personally I believe CS's body is on the plane. I think he may have been involved in research for the Hanso corp (I have a whole thing about Doctor's and human experimentation that I've discussed here (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=463990&highlight=tokyo#post463990) andhere (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=539027&postcount=312)

as a researcher in one project, say eugenics or zoology and test subject in another, say, the immortality project...

Just my ideas, I think there were several people that were meant to be on the plane, but of those, Christian may have been the most important.

It's entirely possible that Jacks father's body was never on the plane at all. They may have just told him it was to get him to stop pitching a fit at the counter.

That's a good point, but then, if it wasn't on the plane, what did Oceanic do with it?

I don't think an airline would SAY a body was on a plane, and not put it on, he would find out. and, you know how much they could get sued for...and where would they even put the body??

if you think about it, what would they do with the body if they didn't put it on the plane? throw it in the trash? really, what could oceanic do with it do with it? it is probably on the island somewhere or in the ocean.

Taking it a step further, where were all the other bodies??? I don't recall Jack et al. finding a single body, or even mentioning other bodies, in the wreckage of the tail section.

Furi161-The fuselage was supposedly full of them, and they had to burn itbecause it was attracting boars.

I always assumed that Christians body never got shipped, and that jack knew it. Re watch the scene at the ticket counter and notice how he keeps saying "casket" instead of body. I think he arranged for the body to be shipped later, or cremated locally or whatever, as the casket was all he really needed for the funeral. He just wanted to symbollicaly put his dad to rest. When he looked in the casket after the crash I always assumed his reaction was one of realizing his failure.

Where did the TPTB say that about his body? I couldn't find any quote or anything.

shipping a casket without a body wouldnt make sense, atleast to me.

It would if he wanted to please his mom. I don't imagine he would tell her that the body wasn't in it, but just let her believe he was being put to rest. If the body IS on the plane, what kind of deal/arrangement did he have to make, and with who? Did he have a secret benefactor that helped him?

if he knew the body wasn't there, why would he freak out when he opened it, and it was empty??

and why would they ship an empty casket?? what would be the point, "ok dad, your dead body can wait here, and we'll ship an empty casket, and then, when we feel like it, we'll ship your body, spending twice as much for another casket to ship you in"

and he talks about how it needs to be over, needs to be done NOW.

seriously, guys common sense...

The bodies they burned were in the middle section of the fuselage, not the tail. I don't think they had even discovered the tail section at that point. As I recall, there were no bodies shown when Jack came upon the wreckage, and the only bodies that were even mentioned in the area of the tail wreckage were Adam and Eve, in the nearvy cave.

Doesn't anyone else think it very odd that there were no bodies at all in the tail wreckage?

we havent seen the tail wreckage yet...

have we?

we just found out that there were tail survivors....

First, did we actually HEAR from the check in-woman that they would put the body on the plane? As far as I remember we only herd Jack arguing that he wanted it to be, but did we her the woman give in?

Second, if Christians body was on the plane it is most probably eaten by now since birds, boars, bears and other wild creatures do that. And the same is true about every body not burned in the fuselage, or were buried in their cemetery with the Marshal, Boone and Sceve.
Dead bodies just don't last very long in the tropics with wildlife around......

Third, we don´t know anything about the tail section yet. We do know hover that the front section was full of bodies, but know nothing about what happened to them (probably decomposed and got eaten by wildlife, perhaps including monster).

Actually, we have seen some bodies. In Episode 1 when they get to the front of the plane (to get the tranciever) there were bodies in the front section. not many but we did see one or two.
Also, at the start of Whatever The Case May Be when Sawyer and Kate jumped in to the pond thing, with the waterfall, they found a bunch of people still strapped in their seats at the bottom of the pond. One seathad the case with the guns under it.
So there are bodies around, and they always spoke of the bodies in the middle section on the beach, so i guess, just because we dont see them, doesnt mean they arent around. I also guess, there is a limit to what they can show us on TV, and dead bodies may be pushing it a bit.

shipping a casket without a body wouldnt make sense, atleast to me.

It just only doesn't make sense; we have seen Jack searching for the casket in order to see if his fathers body is still in there.

Maybe the others snatched him for some reason. Or maybe his body just fell out of the casket during the "crash".

We have 3 strange things that appear in the woods:
1) Whispers
2) Jack's Dad
3) Walt

Not to mention black columns of smoke, strange lights and a growling thing that we can't see.

Do we even have confirmation that Christian is dead? If there is a 'conspiracy' to get Jack to the island, how do we know Christian hasn't been coopted by TPTB to participate in it? As for the idea that an airline would never say they were transporting a body when they weren't, how do we know that Oceanic is even a real airline? If it is real, how do we know that this one plane wasn't taken over by the Hanso Foundation in an elaborate plot to get exactly this group of people to the island for some as yet unknown purpose?

Right on, Clemdane. I'm with you and cmcd:

Personally I believe CS's body is on the plane. I think he may have been involved in research for the Hanso corp (I have a whole thing about Doctor's and human experimentation that I've discussed here andhere

as a researcher in one project, say eugenics or zoology and test subject in another, say, the immortality project...

Just my ideas, I think there were several people that were meant to be on the plane, but of those, Christian may have been the most important.

Christian is alive. He met up with the Others. And he knows what is happening on the island.
Furthermore, the plane (and I think the whole airline) is owned by Hanso (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimagepopup&pid=14867&fullsize=1).

We have 3 strange things that appear in the woods:
1) Whispers
2) Jack's Dad
3) Walt

Anybody think that these are all linked to the Others somehow? The whispers could be the others, Jack's Dad could have been brought back by the Others (he was only dead for 24-48 hours after all, and the Others could be doing biological experiments)...and Walt is definately with the Others and appears in the Woods similar to Jack's Dad.

I'd like to point out that VIncent is often running around in the woods at these times... and has a tendency to just stand off in the woods staring at people like "WHAT? DONT YOU GET IT?" :cool:

I think these reply's are great!!!! but more would be most welcome!!!

I'd like to point out that VIncent is often running around in the woods at these times... and has a tendency to just stand off in the woods staring at people like "WHAT? DONT YOU GET IT?" :cool:

I always thought Vincent was creepy, the way he would just stand in the bushing and spy on people.

I always thought Vincent was creepy, the way he would just stand in the bushing and spy on people.
And if you think there is something fishy about Brian & his mom (especially his mom)... then we have to consider that something might be fishy and very special about this dog... the last "person" we'd expect.

I just thought it sorta strange that Shannon had her experience with the voices and visions in the woods while chasing Vincent.

I think the dog is a catalyst or somehow a medium with some of the stuff going on...

I havent gone back through the old episodes to check on the correlations between the strange events and vincent's wandering... but i think it's quite high.

I can't believe I've been watching LOST this whole time, been on other sites, and only just today found The Fuselage...

I'm onboard with the whole "Jack's father is involved with Dharma" theory. I think Desmond was involved, I think the reason Sarah got her ability to walk back was because of medicial experiments that Jack's father knew about.

As far as what's going on with the body, I believe it was on the plane, just because I don't think Jack would have left Australia without it.

We've already seen two other people being brought back from the brink of death: Rose and Charlie. What if Jack didn't bring 'em back? What if they were dead, and there's something about the island that "repaired" them? Dead a short while, get "repaired" and no one's the wiser. Dead a quite a bit longer, and you're "repaired" but not acting totally of your own accord. Not exactly a "yum-yum I'll eat your brains" zombie, but not exactly alive the way you used to be either.

This repairing theory also lets Locke get tied in with this (his legs), and Sarah (her legs). I personally think it's all nanotechnology that's doing it, and we've seen it. That weird black smoke could have been some sort of nanotechnology.

People have already commented on why Jack's Father was wearing white sneakers with that white suit. We've seen the white sneakers hanging in the jungle. Maybe those are the same sneakers.

.....or not. :)

Welcome, interesting 1st post

also consider how many character's have relationships with hospitals...

(i def think the island has regenerative powers but im not convinced his dad is alive)

I can't believe I've been watching LOST this whole time, been on other sites, and only just today found The Fuselage...

I'm onboard with the whole "Jack's father is involved with Dharma" theory. I think Desmond was involved, I think the reason Sarah got her ability to walk back was because of medicial experiments that Jack's father knew about.

As far as what's going on with the body, I believe it was on the plane, just because I don't think Jack would have left Australia without it.

We've already seen two other people being brought back from the brink of death: Rose and Charlie. What if Jack didn't bring 'em back? What if they were dead, and there's something about the island that "repaired" them? Dead a short while, get "repaired" and no one's the wiser. Dead a quite a bit longer, and you're "repaired" but not acting totally of your own accord. Not exactly a "yum-yum I'll eat your brains" zombie, but not exactly alive the way you used to be either.

This repairing theory also lets Locke get tied in with this (his legs), and Sarah (her legs). I personally think it's all nanotechnology that's doing it, and we've seen it. That weird black smoke could have been some sort of nanotechnology.

People have already commented on why Jack's Father was wearing white sneakers with that white suit. We've seen the white sneakers hanging in the jungle. Maybe those are the same sneakers.

.....or not. :)

Nice thoughts, welcome to the Lage.

You know, the more you think about Jack's father, the more questions you come up with.

I'm extrapolating a lot here, so keep that in mind:

Christian went off to Australia, and died of a heart attack.

Beyond the obvious answers, that he just happened to go to Australia and it was just his time to go, what else could have happened?

Say he was involved in experiments that used human subjects, Desmond was his contact and Sarah was one of those experimented upon. Whatever was used had to be relatively fast acting, not require additional surgery, and no detectable. That would be how he'd be able to get away with it for some time.



After he killed that patient, two months pass. Could he have been in Australia to confront someone about these experiments? Desmond maybe? Was he told to go to Australia to meet someone because he jeopordized the project? Was he killed? If he was killed, was he killed with the same sort of technolgy that he had been using on other patients? Something fast acting, not requiring surgery, and not detectable?

I know this seems a little far-fetched, but there's something really wierd about Christian leaving his wallet behind in the hotel room, and that he turned up dead later.

I know this seems a little far-fetched, but there's something really wierd about Christian leaving his wallet behind in the hotel room, and that he turned up dead later.

Maybe the bar tender was running him a tab and he didn't need any money that time. Or maybe, he was abducted by aliens.

Would doing that make them illegal aliens? :rolleyes:

Well, Jack's dad being involved with Hanso/Dharma is definitely a plausible theory and one that I haven't put much thought into yet, save for a bit just now. It would make exceptionally good sense that he is involved because of Jack's run-in with Desmond. What are the chances of those two meeting prior to meeting in the hatch? Slim to none in all reality... Yet pretty good if Jack's dad had something to do with Desmond getting into that hatch. He could have "sponsored" Desmond's attempts or even asked him to participate in the race around the world... Knowing that he'd be a good subject to get down in the hatch. Perhaps Christian was so upset about Jack 'ratting' him out that he decided he may as well subject Jack to it for awhile.

Well, Jack's dad being involved with Hanso/Dharma is definitely a plausible theory and one that I haven't put much thought into yet, save for a bit just now. It would make exceptionally good sense that he is involved because of Jack's run-in with Desmond. What are the chances of those two meeting prior to meeting in the hatch? Slim to none in all reality... Yet pretty good if Jack's dad had something to do with Desmond getting into that hatch. He could have "sponsored" Desmond's attempts or even asked him to participate in the race around the world... Knowing that he'd be a good subject to get down in the hatch. Perhaps Christian was so upset about Jack 'ratting' him out that he decided he may as well subject Jack to it for awhile.

I like this theory about Jack's Dad being involved with Dharma. What do we know about Jack's fathers history. Is there some some clue in any of the ealier episodes that could lead us down this train of thought?

I like this theory about Jack's Dad being involved with Dharma. What do we know about Jack's fathers history. Is there some some clue in any of the ealier episodes that could lead us down this train of thought?

I can't do so right now, but I'll take a look at Christian's comments to Jack I know he makes a comment similar to you have no idea what I've had to do (or sacrifice, something like that, that I used on the charactrer thread when the idea that maybe Christian was a military doctor was being batted around)

And I've always felt like something had to have broken his spirit that made him so hard on Jack as a way of preparing him for this profession. Makes the hope lecture before Sarah's surgery interesting.

All day I'll be thinking about Dr. Shepherds...cursed cursed lost

i dunno if this was already said, but i was wondering that maybe jacks tattoos are in rerference to something. Maybe Jack was in the military, or something like that....

There is no island, there is no body, there is only Jack and his delusions.

i dunno if this was already said, but i was wondering that maybe jacks tattoos are in rerference to something. Maybe Jack was in the military, or something like that....

There's a "5" on his arm... There might be much more to Jack than Christian Shepard ever let him know about.....

When somebody mentioned Desmond's involvement i just rolled my eyes... but then i realized that Desmond and his father both took interest in Jack's "girl" and his attitude.

In fact, they took precisely the same interest with Desmond implying a miracle...

IMO, these hospital phenomenon are definately related but until this moment i never took Desmond to be lying about just getting stuck on the island 3 years ago.

Then again... perhaps Desmond's story is that he too was at that hospital and looking for a miracle (and got it, but ended up stranded on the island anyways)

I'm also comfortable with the idea that Jack's dad was involved with Dharma in the past... and that there's a reason he (and so many others) went to australia... but im not convinced he's alive unless he too is now one of The Wisps.

The body was in the casket.. That I think is the most obvious answer...
The company would not lie to Jack..
It would be meaningless (even though Jack IS crazy), to board an empty casket, just to bring back the body at a later date...
And unless he was brought back to life, someone must have tken the body, the casket was in perfect condition, so even if the body flew out , it could not have been far, granted the plane was shattered and the survivors were fine!

We shall find out soon enough

Another possibility is that Jacks father never died. Yes we saw Jack view his dad in the morgue and yes Jack is a doctor and should have an idea if someone is dead or not. But it could all be an illusion to get Jacks dad back into Dharma or into Dharma for the first time. I could be that Jacks dad has been involved with Dharma all along and decided to get back in full time when Jack told the truth about the surgery

The body was in the casket.. That I think is the most obvious answer...

As far as the body being in the casket if the theory is right maybe Jacks father was never in the casket

The company would not lie to Jack..

By company I think you mean Oceanic. If so, then who is to say that Oceanic is not involved somehow? There has been a screen capture showing Walt walking in the plane wreckage. Behind Walt, on a big piece of fuselage we see what appears to be Dharma symbol. Could Oceanic have a part in all of this? Please read my post about the plausibility of this here:http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=22825&page=2

It would be meaningless (even though Jack IS crazy), to board an empty casket, just to bring back the body at a later date..

I think Jack didn’t know that the casket was empty. Other wise why was he so surprised to find it empty. Are we sure that that was his fathers casket? Maybe his dad was either dumped in the ocean or is somewhere on the island in his casket dead.

And unless he was brought back to life, someone must have tken the body, the casket was in perfect condition, so even if the body flew out , it could not have been far, granted the plane was shattered and the survivors were fine!

Maybe the casket was placed there for Jack to find to keep him off balance. That’s why the casket is in such fine shape. Of course you bring up a very good question. How could there be survivors if the plane broke up at 40,000 ft. Makes you wonder if they ever took off to begin with. They could have been knocked out and place on the island. Of course I can’t explain how all of the survivors have memories of the crash.

There has been a screen capture showing Walt walking in the plane wreckage. Behind Walt, on a big piece of fuselage we see what appears to be Dharma symbol. Could Oceanic have a part in all of this? Please read my post about the plausibility of this here:http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=22825&page=2.

I subscribe to this possibility with you, even though some people say that the markings were already on the plane when they bought it... The markings are different and on another place (but this is a discussion for another thread :P)
.



. How could there be survivors if the plane broke up at 40,000 ft. Makes you wonder if they ever took off to begin with. They could have been knocked out and place on the island. Of course I can’t explain how all of the survivors have memories of the crash.

That's just it, it is easier to beleive that there was no crash (and I do!) , but it bothers me that some of them remember the fact!

This is an interesting theory; it certainly ties together alot of plot points.

Someone mentioned how the island may have brought a few people back to life. Don't forget to include Claire's baby on that one. In the pilot episode, she said she hadn't felt the baby kick for awhile. Then, Jin gave her some of the sea urchin and right away the baby started moving again.

I think that perhaps CS was not dead when Jack saw him. Perhaps they had put him into some sort of cryogenic sleep (cryogenics is one of Hanso's projects). They put CS's imobilized body in the casket and onto Flight 815. After the plane crash, someone (the Other's, Desmond, other Others?) did what they needed to do and now CS is working on some project in one of the underground bat caves.

Now, it makes me think about Desmond meeting up with Jack in LA before Sarah's surgery. Remember when he said "Lift it up". Perhaps this was some code phrase and then when Jack didn't give the correct response, Desmond covered by saying "Your foot".

Now, it makes me think about Desmond meeting up with Jack in LA before Sarah's surgery. Remember when he said "Lift it up". Perhaps this was some code phrase and then when Jack didn't give the correct response, Desmond covered by saying "Your foot".

The idea that "Lift it up" could be a code phrase is a very interesting idea which I had not thought about. Desmond (most likely) asks a code phrase question to Locke in the bunker, so the implication is that the Dharma Initiative used coded phrases. Of course, we do not know where Desmond learned the particular phrase that he repeats to Locke. Perhaps he learned it from Kelvin or from some manual or filmstrip in the bunker (if the story he told everyone regarding his arrival on the island is true), or perhaps it is a Dharma Initiative code phrase that he knew from way back. Either way, if "Lift it up" was a code phrase, the question becomes 'Why did Desmond expect Jack to respond to the code phrase when he met him in the stadium?"

Perhaps Desmond was in the stadium to meet his contact and assumed it was Jack (just as he assumed Locke was his replacement when they met in the bat cave).

Perhaps Desmond was in the stadium to meet his contact and assumed it was Jack (just as he assumed Locke was his replacement when they met in the bat cave).

That makes sense. If it is true, then it is possibly a coincidence that Desmond and Jack met up at all. (by that I mean that it was coincidence that Jack just happened to be running stairs in a stadium where a meeting that had nothing to do with Jack was set to take place). Also, the fact that Desmond mentions that he 'almost' became a doctor suggests (depending upon how you interpret that sentence) that he was involved in a scientific field. Further evidence that he was working for an organization like Dharma?
*I guess this is getting pretty OT, so I'll quit here.*

That makes sense. If it is true, then it is possibly a coincidence that Desmond and Jack met up at all. (by that I mean that it was coincidence that Jack just happened to be running stairs in a stadium where a meeting that had nothing to do with Jack was set to take place). Also, the fact that Desmond mentions that he 'almost' became a doctor suggests (depending upon how you interpret that sentence) that he was involved in a scientific field. Further evidence that he was working for an organization like Dharma?
*I guess this is getting pretty OT, so I'll quit here.*

I'm not sure of the sequence of events, but did Jack introduce himself to Desmond as Dr. Jack Shepard. If so maybe Jacks dad was suppose to be Desmonds contact. And the only thing Desomond knew was the name of the contact "Dr. Shepard". So when Desmond gave the code phrase "Lift it up" and Jack did not respond correctly he covered it up. This accidiental meeting between Jack and Desmond could have been oberserved by the late arriving Christian Shepard which sent the plans into place for the illusion of Christian being dead.

I know this seems rather far fetched but I'm just trying to connected the dots.

That's just it, it is easier to beleive that there was no crash (and I do!) , but it bothers me that some of them remember the fact!

Only Kate said she remembered it all, and Kate's lying. She knows it's a hoax.

i think that the others may've taken it or have it somewhere, when jack sees it he'll go balistic.

Flight simulator..pcp in the gas masks...implanted memories?? NO WAY could they survive at 40,000 feet...the air temp is -60 up there and they would all have frozen within seconds...

The crash has to be fake...the dead are collateral damage...

Flight simulator..pcp in the gas masks...implanted memories?? NO WAY could they survive at 40,000 feet...the air temp is -60 up there and they would all have frozen within seconds...

The crash has to be fake...the dead are collateral damage...

I couldn't have said it better myself.....

I'm not sure of the sequence of events, but did Jack introduce himself to Desmond as Dr. Jack Shepard. If so maybe Jacks dad was suppose to be Desmonds contact. And the only thing Desomond knew was the name of the contact "Dr. Shepard". So when Desmond gave the code phrase "Lift it up" and Jack did not respond correctly he covered it up. This accidiental meeting between Jack and Desmond could have been oberserved by the late arriving Christian Shepard which sent the plans into place for the illusion of Christian being dead.

I know this seems rather far fetched but I'm just trying to connected the dots.

According to the Lost-TV transcript, he only introduces himself as Jack. I like the idea that Christian was watching the Jack/Desmond conversation. I can see a future flash back from Desmond where we see Christian come out of the shadows after Jack leaves and they make their nefarious plans.

Someone mentioned how the island may have brought a few people back to life. Don't forget to include Claire's baby on that one. In the pilot episode, she said she hadn't felt the baby kick for awhile. Then, Jin gave her some of the sea urchin and right away the baby started moving again.

I think that perhaps CS was not dead when Jack saw him. Perhaps they had put him into some sort of cryogenic sleep (cryogenics is one of Hanso's projects). They put CS's imobilized body in the casket and onto Flight 815. After the plane crash, someone (the Other's, Desmond, other Others?) did what they needed to do and now CS is working on some project in one of the underground bat caves.

excellent thread, and im glad i saw you post this, cryogenic sleep/shock has been associated with airlines/death/accidents since the first time i at least, have ever heard of it, ...which was a dead man who was a cargo hold ramp rat who caught his arm in the door of the belly of the plane as they were loading it, the trafficers down on the ground reported an object hanging from the plane and upon landing it was found how man had tragically died and sadly how he had been dragged off, thing was, at some point before he was actually embalmed, they saw signs of life,
same seems true of what happened to christian shepard, only he was in an induced cryogenic sleep ~by way of natural normal methods it is a form of shock that shuts the body down to the point that all the people around the body believe it to be dead {i.e. people buried that have been dug up later and nail scratches have been found on coffin lid}
still not sure if cryogenic is the correct word if it is applied to natural mortal shock, however the theroy is the same, someone put christian in the coffin; morge director being in on it, would also explain why he was drinking so much, i would be nervous if i knew all this was going down, christian knew his wife well enough to know jack would be sent to find him, for all we know, there was someone from dharma following all along, and for that matter maybe they are the ones who drive that pontiac that is myteriously seen at accident sites from state to state with our losties, {kate, micheal, locke} ...someone is/was getting around quite well and being undetected, i say, christian is alive, and in one of the hatches we havent yet seen, afterall, desmond flat out sure knew where he was going!

okay, what if
Christain is now one of the OTHERS?

i think that the others may've taken it or have it somewhere, when jack sees it he'll go balistic.

That would be pretty awesome, I'm not gonna lie!

and if Ol Christian is now one of the OTHERS, imagine if you will just what Jack would do...Lots of crying and I think Jack would be ready to trip on over to the other side and sink into the black hole of his mind.

and if Ol Christian is now one of the OTHERS, imagine if you will just what Jack would do...Lots of crying and I think Jack would be ready to trip on over to the other side and sink into the black hole of his mind.

Ha ha, that would be unfortuante, as I didn't know he had a black hole of his mind.

Oh, yes he hdoes...its where he hides all his 5 seconds of fear, his lost love, and his hatred of his father....
way deep down inside that cold dark black hole

excellent thread, and im glad i saw you post this, cryogenic sleep/shock has been associated with airlines/death/accidents since the first time i at least, have ever heard of it, ...which was a dead man who was a cargo hold ramp rat who caught his arm in the door of the belly of the plane as they were loading it, the trafficers down on the ground reported an object hanging from the plane and upon landing it was found how man had tragically died and sadly how he had been dragged off, thing was, at some point before he was actually embalmed, they saw signs of life,
same seems true of what happened to christian shepard, only he was in an induced cryogenic sleep ~by way of natural normal methods it is a form of shock that shuts the body down to the point that all the people around the body believe it to be dead {i.e. people buried that have been dug up later and nail scratches have been found on coffin lid}
still not sure if cryogenic is the correct word if it is applied to natural mortal shock, however the theroy is the same, someone put christian in the coffin; morge director being in on it, would also explain why he was drinking so much, i would be nervous if i knew all this was going down, christian knew his wife well enough to know jack would be sent to find him, for all we know, there was someone from dharma following all along, and for that matter maybe they are the ones who drive that pontiac that is myteriously seen at accident sites from state to state with our losties, {kate, micheal, locke} ...someone is/was getting around quite well and being undetected, i say, christian is alive, and in one of the hatches we havent yet seen, afterall, desmond flat out sure knew where he was going!

OOOooooooooooooK. I don't buy it. I think Christian was just a vision or hallucination of Jacks. Granted there could be some science fiction on, but there is really no such thing as being cryogenically frozen in a reliable sate. There are procedures used in surgery where the brain is cooled to the point where it can go without blood for up to 45 minutes, but even that is very risky. Christian would be dead simply after being in the fridge at the morgue that long. He would be Double Dead after being in a coffin for a damn long while. Keep in mind he was probably in the cooler a good while before good ole' Jack got to him. As far as people clawing their coffins, those stories are associated with deaths in the early 20th century, when bodies where buried much quicker and we had less reliable means of telling when they are dead (this differs state to state, but declaring someone offically dead takes a few documented facts).
There may be a mastermind behind all of them being on the plane, but I have a hard time thinking a family member was in on it. IF Christians body is on the island, I am pretty sure he is just as dead as Ethan.... he's really dead too, right?

If Christain were an "other" or anything evil (alive or dead), he probably wouldn't have helped Jack and the castaways by leading Jack to the caves and the water. There was nothing malevolent about Christain in Jack's "vision" or whatever it was. As a matter of fact, Christain's last words we heard (with Sawyer in the bar) and his last encounter with Jack (the "vision") were very positive with regards to Jack. It seems like these things are small steps towards healing Jack's pain and guilt.

"OOOooooooooooooK. I don't buy it. I think Christian was just a vision or hallucination of Jacks."
*this makes walt a hallucination, then shannon is crazy
"Granted there could be some science fiction on, but there is really no such thing as being cryogenically frozen in a reliable sate. There are procedures used in surgery where the brain is cooled to the point where it can go without blood for up to 45 minutes, but even that is very risky."
*i never said "frozen"

"Christian would be dead simply after being in the fridge at the morgue that long. He would be Double Dead after being in a coffin for a damn long while. Keep in mind he was probably in the cooler a good while before good ole' Jack got to him."
*how do we know he was in the morgue that long? we didnt even see christian die, did we now?

"As far as people clawing their coffins, those stories are associated with deaths in the early 20th century, when bodies where buried much quicker and we had less reliable means of telling when they are dead (this differs state to state, but declaring someone offically dead takes a few documented facts)."
*documented doesnt mean a thing if hanso/dharma/oceanic are in on this together
*i say christian works for hanso/dharma, he was induced {maybe the drugs desmond used?} and is now at corvus crow station working

"There may be a mastermind behind all of them being on the plane, but I have a hard time thinking a family member was in on it."
*locke, lied to by parents to donate *cough* kidney
*jack, manipulated by christian, his father, to keep surgery death a secret
*boone, manipulated by shannon via money, lies etc
*sun/jin, had to live life of crime in loo of their dreams
*charlie, his brother and a band ring a bell?

"IF Christians body is on the island, I am pretty sure he is just as dead as Ethan.... he's really dead too, right?"
*also believe that he is the one to have involved jack, good question, is ethan dead lol


@->>->:-

Hello all! This is my first post. I just recently spent the past 2 weeks watching the first season and second season two times in a row. What a great show. So enough of that babble..
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

At first, I thought this was a rediculous topic. It seems that one could make something out of nothing in this show (ie. the whole "Iron Mike" thread). But, this is a great topic.

While, I think a lot of the points being made are valid. I do have to believe that Jack's father IS indeed on this island. The fact that the body is missing almost makes me completely believe the crash was indeed faked. That would be a very simple process. Just once all the passengers are on the plane and start to hit some turbulance. Have the passangers freak out, and once they all start sucking on their oxygen masks, GAS 'EM! Kate says she remembers, but Kate is a liar anyway. No one remembers anything once they put the gas mask on.

Anyway, my belief is that Christian has been working with Dharma for YEARS! I would even go so far as to speculate that Christian used some experiments on Jack when he was younger. Thus, the reason he pushes Jack so hard to be extrodinary at what he does. When talking to Sawyer he says, "My son is a good man, maybe even a great one". While, it could just be drunken fatherly love, maybe he knows that his son has the potential to be "Special".

I believe that Christian was set to meet with Desmond that day and give him his "spondership" from the Hanso Corporation. Jack ended up being there instead, and they just had a simple conversation.

I dont believe the operation on Sarah had anything to do with anything other then story driven plot.

I do think Christian is in a hatch somewhere. I think the visions Jack had were only visions, but his father is very much alive.

As for Desmond, I think Desmond is aware of a few other stations on the island. Perhaps one of the 6 is still fully functional and a safe house?

thoughts?

React - welcome to the 'lage! Great first post :cool:

I like the thought that Jack was being groomed for more than doctor-hood. Was he being trained to join the Dharma Project? Things that make you go hmmm.

I do think that Desmond knows where the other stations are. When he was running from Swan, he seemed to have a directional purpose; there didn't appear to be any floundering. It would make sense that he is headed towards one of the other (Others?) stations. Whether those stations are safe houses has yet to be seen. Whatever happens, we will see Desmond again.

Lust for Lost - you assume that all of the Others are evil. There are some threads that think there are 2 or more factions of Others - some evil, some not. Perhaps, Christian is in the good camp, thus explaining his desire to aid his son to find water and shelter. Christian's appearance reminds me of Walt's appearance - both were trying to give helpful information. There really is something odd about Christian's appearance - remember the white sneakers. Christian doesn't strike me as the type of man to wear white sneakers with a business suit. So, if Jack is hallucinating, why would he add white sneakers?

puttingittogether - don't forget that TPTB have noted that they will use pseudo-science in the show. While cryogenics is not a viable science now, they may have written the possibility in the show. The Hanso/Dharma Project website notes that cryogenics is one of the sciences they are currently working on.

Fist of all welcome to the Fuselage...:biggrin:

While, I think a lot of the points being made are valid. I do have to believe that Jack's father IS indeed on this island. The fact that the body is missing almost makes me completely believe the crash was indeed faked. That would be a very simple process. Just once all the passengers are on the plane and start to hit some turbulance. Have the passangers freak out, and once they all start sucking on their oxygen masks, GAS 'EM! Kate says she remembers, but Kate is a liar anyway. No one remembers anything once they put the gas mask on.


I concur. There are numerous threads pertaining to this topic. I have a hard time believing that these passengers survived a 35,000 ft free fall. Not to mention when the plane broke up there was low oxygen and sub freezing temperatures.


Anyway, my belief is that Christian has been working with Dharma for YEARS! I would even go so far as to speculate that Christian used some experiments on Jack when he was younger. Thus, the reason he pushes Jack so hard to be extrodinary at what he does. When talking to Sawyer he says, "My son is a good man, maybe even a great one". While, it could just be drunken fatherly love, maybe he knows that his son has the potential to be "Special".

I too believe that Christian has been working with Dharma for years. We just didn't see enough of Christians death to make me believe he is actually dead. Good point about Jack being used in experiments. I never thought of that. This could be a thread of it's own.


I believe that Christian was set to meet with Desmond that day and give him his "spondership" from the Hanso Corporation. Jack ended up being there instead, and they just had a simple conversation.


I said the same thing in this post here (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=565727&postcount=49).

I dont believe the operation on Sarah had anything to do with anything other then story driven plot.

I'm not so sure on this. Could be Jack was involved in some experiments, unknown to him, Sara's operation could have been Dharma's test to see if Jack was "ready". Ready for what I don't know. Maybe for more experiments. For example the island.....

I do think Christian is in a hatch somewhere. I think the visions Jack had were only visions, but his father is very much alive.

Could be Jack returned to Dharma to fix what ever went wrong to begin with. So maybe Christian is monitoring things from somewhere else. Makes sense.


As for Desmond, I think Desmond is aware of a few other stations on the island. Perhaps one of the 6 is still fully functional and a safe house?


Don't forget Desmond only had 108 minutes to explore. I would think about 54 minutes. He would need time to get back to the hatch. Unless there are maps of the island with locations the other stations we haven't seen yet. But I doubt this. The hatchs current mission was to keep people inside. Why tease the occupants with maps of whats around you especially if you think nothing is alive outside.

I always thought Vincent was creepy, the way he would just stand in the bushing and spy on people.

Me too!!! Vincent is wicked creepy. Shouldn't he have been eaten by now???? :rolleyes:

And I'll just put my 2 cents in about Jack's Dad. I believe his body was on the plane. Why would Jack leave it? What if his Mom had wanted to see the body before burial? Jack couldn't risk that. I think partly his frustration at finding the coffin empty was that NOW he wasn't sure what he was seeing AND feeling he failed his mother and father. Although this last he had noway of stopping.

I do very much like the theory that CS (hmmm I knew another CS...CSM he was very secretive as well) isn't dead and is part of the Hanso project...probably some big wig. Maybe that's why he drank so much! :redface:

Some background and why I'm behind on the posts...no local channels here, my daughter bought dvd's, hooked me and is now taping the eps for me. She lives 2 hours away and I just saw ep 3 of season 2. Please BEAR with me while I catch up.

I'm not so sure on this. Could be Jack was involved in some experiments, unknown to him, Sara's operation could have been Dharma's test to see if Jack was "ready". Ready for what I don't know. Maybe for more experiments. For example the island.....


Another possiblity is that, unbeknowst to Jack, the Dharma Project (maybe in the form of Christian) used Sara in one of their experiements and that is how she regained the use of her legs. I'm not a doctor (and I don't play one on TV!), but Jack believed that the operation was not successful. How could a doctor not know that his operation was successful? I can see where he would be unsure if he succeeded, but he was absolutely sure that Sara would not walk.

Adding to this thought, perhaps that was the same thing Hanso did to Locke to help him regain the use of his legs.

Another possiblity is that, unbeknowst to Jack, the Dharma Project (maybe in the form of Christian) used Sara in one of their experiements and that is how she regained the use of her legs. I'm not a doctor (and I don't play one on TV!), but Jack believed that the operation was not successful. How could a doctor not know that his operation was successful? I can see where he would be unsure if he succeeded, but he was absolutely sure that Sara would not walk.

Adding to this thought, perhaps that was the same thing Hanso did to Locke to help him regain the use of his legs.

So no mystical mystery for you with those legs, huh? :rolleyes: What about the anomalies that brought Hanso and the Dharma group to the island in the first place? Something strange has been happening at the island for one of two hundred years (it seems to me considering the Black Rock). The Island has become Locke's Walkabout that he so desprately wanted. As soon as Charlie handed over the herion, Locke pointed up and there was Charlies guitar. He knew the rain would start in a minute give or take 3 or 4 seconds. He found the hatch. He found the drug plane, he sacrificed Boone to the Island to regain the use of his legs. He has come face to face with whatever is knocking the trees down and didn't die. And whether or not the thing knocking down the trees and the black smoke are one in the same (I personally think not at this time, but I am only on ep3 of season 2--so I might have a change of mind) The black smoke wanted Locke down that hole! Does the noise from the black smoke sound mechanical to anyone else like a huge chain being hauled out and a quit work whistle from the flintstones? :undecide:

BlueMoon - actually, I don't think there is one all inclusive answer to the island mysteries. I believe that Hanso/Dharma is just one part of several answers. I think that there are several somethings going on that have collided on that island and created what we now know (or don't know as the case may be!).

Another possiblity is that, unbeknowst to Jack, the Dharma Project (maybe in the form of Christian) used Sara in one of their experiements and that is how she regained the use of her legs. I'm not a doctor (and I don't play one on TV!), but Jack believed that the operation was not successful. How could a doctor not know that his operation was successful? I can see where he would be unsure if he succeeded, but he was absolutely sure that Sara would not walk.

Adding to this thought, perhaps that was the same thing Hanso did to Locke to help him regain the use of his legs.

I was saying the same thing, but unsuccessfully. I believe that Sara might have been part of an experiment. Either Jack unknowingly through childhood experiments on him, was able to make Sara walk again. Or after Jack operated on Sara, the Dharma team did their thing to her and was able to make her walk. This could explain why Jack was so certain that he failed Sara.

Although, doctors are trained to do only so much. They realy on the body to do most of the healing. Take for instance organ transplants. Sometimes the body rejects the organ sometimes it doesn't. The doctor doesn't know until sometime later. Or reattachment of limbs. Sometimes it works, probably most times, but there are times when it doesn't.

I thought of that too. I was also trying to link Locke's and Sara's ability to walk again. Maybe this fits in with the fact that there was no crash. And that the survivors were placed on the island. But before that happened, Dharma performed their magic on Locke and *Poof* he can walk.

Fist of all welcome to the Fuselage...:biggrin:

Don't forget Desmond only had 108 minutes to explore. I would think about 54 minutes. He would need time to get back to the hatch. Unless there are maps of the island with locations the other stations we haven't seen yet. But I doubt this. The hatchs current mission was to keep people inside. Why tease the occupants with maps of whats around you especially if you think nothing is alive outside.

Thanks for the welcome. That is a very good point. I was thinking maybe Kelvin could have told him about other stations or a place to go if things went wrong.

See, i have this hard time believing that someone would just push a button. I mean, seriously...

For awhile, I thought when Desmond said, "Are you him" he was referring to Jack's father or his replacement. But, I dont think its either of those anymore.

Ulitmately, you have to begin to wonder how often people were replaced down there. Yes, we are led to believe every 540 days, but...come on now...we're also led to believe not pushing that button will result in the destruction of the world.

Wrong thread i know...

BlueMoon - actually, I don't think there is one all inclusive answer to the island mysteries. I believe that Hanso/Dharma is just one part of several answers. I think that there are several somethings going on that have collided on that island and created what we now know (or don't know as the case may be!).

Honbun...I agree. I also apologize for misreading your post. Just seems like everyone is leaning towards the scientific/conspiracy since the hatch opening instead of the mystical.

I'm right on board with the whole experimenting on Sarah and Locke's being able to walk being related. I'd even go so far as to say that Desmond and Christian knew each other, and Christian (as head of surgery) was doing experiments on people at the hospital; possibly even Jack (I only say that because of the "5" on his shoulder, and how they'll explain that on the show). I mentioned some of this earlier in this thread (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=551062&postcount=27) and I have a much more long winded theory that relates to this in the LOST theories (http://magiclamp.org/?page_id=31) section of my website.
<p>
Again, this is all purely theory, of course. But it's fun to speculate. :-) The way the writers are structuring everything in the show, they leave themselves with a lot of "outs" in the direction they're taking the stories. I think there's an overall story they're telling, but they're having fun adding the little things (like the shark, for example) without having a fully developed idea of where they want to take it.

React - welcome to the 'lage! Great first post :cool:


Lust for Lost - you assume that all of the Others are evil. There are some threads that think there are 2 or more factions of Others - some evil, some not. Perhaps, Christian is in the good camp, thus explaining his desire to aid his son to find water and shelter. Christian's appearance reminds me of Walt's appearance - both were trying to give helpful information. There really is something odd about Christian's appearance - remember the white sneakers. Christian doesn't strike me as the type of man to wear white sneakers with a business suit. So, if Jack is hallucinating, why would he add white sneakers?

Actually, I totally agree on the idea that there is more than one faction of "others." I am certain that there are good and evil others. Still am not certain if Christian is alive, but I am open to the idea of him being a good other. His appearance was strange and similar to Walt's. You made a great point about the white sneakers! Thanks, I didn't notice that.

P.S. I also agree with you that Desmond has probably found another hatch.

I'm still not convinced that his body ever made it on the plane. I know a lot fo you think it sounds ridiculous, but I think we were given some clues. In 16 hours I need to land at LAX, and I need that coffin to clear customs because there's going to be a hearse waiting there. And I need that hearse to take me and that coffin to a cemetery.Why? Why, Crissy, can't I just bring him to a funeral home and make all the arrangements? Why can't I really take my time with it? Because I need it to be done. I need it to be over. I just. . . I need to bury my father. I think the last part is the most obvious. He wants the whole ordeal over with. You don't need a body for a funeral, you just need to say goodbye. What did they do with the body? Who knows. He could have arranged to have it cremated. When Jack opens the coffin at the cave, I don't think he's surprised, I think he's mad. I think he realized that he failed to bury his father, not just for himself but for his mother.

I think Christian leaving his wallet was just a plot device to get him talking to Sawyer. It cracks me up that people think he's part of a conspiracy because he forgot his wallet while on a week long bender. I wish I had an evil plot hatching for every time I've forgotten my wallet. It's misdirection, meant to fuel speculation. Like the white shoes, I think Jack's vision, brought on by stress, fatigue, and exhaustiong just pulled the shoes out of his subconcious. Most of the time we have these crazy theories to explain simple, though sometimes odd events. i.e. there were a hundred posts about the shoes jack found in the hatch, and it was simply that wet shoes make noise so Locke took them off. Polar bears? No drifting island, or manifestations by Walt, somebody just brought them there. I definitely think Christian had some dark secrets, but helping to mastermind a plane crash probably wasn't one of them.

Speaking of the plane crash TPTB have said "we'll find out why the plane crashed." Not "if" the plane crashed or "how they covered up" the plane crash. I think the reason so many people survived is simple. That's how they wrote it. They needed to get the characters to an uncharted island. Can't exactly have a tour bus make a wrong turn. Plus it reinforces the idea that the island is special. And it's not like they just dropped straight down from 35,000 feet, they were probably gliding down, and until the tail broke off they probably had a modicum of control. Plus if one engine was still running while on the ground, I'd assume it was running before it crashed. Still odd that anyone survived, granted, but I don't think impossible for a tv show.

I guess I just always believe the simplest most logical explanation, which has usually been the case. it's how all the explanations are related that's fascinating. Let the discussion continue.

This is going to be kind of a stream of conscience/theory thing so bear with it.

Christian is alive
Christian works for DHARMA
Christian had 2 sons
One is the constant 1 is the variable
They lead similar lives "Both were going to be doctors"
Desomond also works for Dharma.
Desmond is the constant
Jack and Desmond are watching Jack

That was my weird stream of conscience. Please add or subtract as needed.

What, you think Desmond is Jack's brother somehow?

I dont know man...but who knows rightr!

TenGlan: Ya know man, i am with you 100%. I think its very easy to over analyze anything. But, the shoes in the tree were not a figment of Jack's mind...I dont think thats possible at all. Perhaps it was just a pair of shoes hanging on the trees to kind of makes us think, 'Woa...they're on an island..."

No, I meant the reason he saw his dad wearing the white tennis shoes, was because that was one of the first things he saw. I didn't mean for it to sound like he imagined the shoes in the tree.

Sawyer met Jacks dad alive. Sawyer had a run in with an Australian Politician and the Australian government had him deported the next day. What is the timeline of these events? Im assuming both bar events occured the same night.

If Sawyer saw Jacks dad Friday night, and killed Aussie Friday night, went to jail Saturday night, was deported Sunday. This means that if JAck were in US, across international dateline, he gets called as soon as dad dies say he died that saturday, so jack gets notified saturday night. Suppose he gets a flight out Saturday night (which I dont think is practical considering all the stuff he had to pack business and leisure clothes) but lets just say he leaves sat night. He would arrive in australia friday night aussie time, conduct his business Saturday and return on sunday. DO you think this is feasible or a time paradox?
Im wondering why jack was in australia in the first place if it wasnt to retreive dads body.
I dont think poroducers are being sly here, by body they mean corpse. Corpse was on plane and casket landed in different place than corpse.
Desmond may be Jacks brother from another mother Christian was an alcoholic, maybe a philanderer too. Desmond as Jacks brother is most plausible theory i have read in this thread.

Well, they never said his dad died. In fact, I dont think Jack knew his father was dead until he arrived in Sydney. He did have to go ID him. I think while he was in Sydney he recieved a call that his father was dead.

Or, do you think his mother knew he was dead? That something that was never touched on.

Oh, it wasn't my theory Desmond was Jack's brother...but i'll take credit unless someone actually said this.

The accent thing doesnt work too well though...so I dont think thats possible.

I think when Jacks mother asked him to go get his father she said it in a way as if to say, "Its time for you father to come home." as if he was still alive. So Jack only found out about his fathers death when he arrived in Australia. And because he doesn't have a clue about what his dad might be involved in, he thinks the casket has is fathers body in it.

I agree about Jack thinking his father was still alive, otherwise why go to his hotel room first? I don't know about hotels in Australia, but I assume they have a mandatory check out policy for dead people.

Jack's father is dead. However his body has been infected with nanobites and has now become an Other. The dad that Jack saw in White Rabbit tho, was just a vision or hallucination like Shannons's visions of Walt.

His body has become infected with nanobites? How did you draw this conclusion ?

Watching White Rabbit now, Jacks Dad left his wallet in his room. Not the behavior of someone on a bender. And Locke said yes his white rabbit might be a halucination, but that it happened for a reason, that he may really be on the island. Locke is sure he saw him for a reason.

Also Jack ID's the body in the mourge.

Crazy: We THINK Jack ID"s the body.

Perhaps he faked it. I believe Jack faked the ID'ing of the body as part of an elaborate scheme. I think Christian performed tests on Jack his entire life preparing him for this "Final Experiment". To see if you can make an ordinary man, extrodinary through science. Thats why i believe Jack begins this adventure in the woods by himself with the dog.

See, I dont think Jack knows he's part of this test, but just maybe he does. I'm really torn on this. If you get a theory like that and re-watch the show, you can see bits of time where Jack seems to understand whats happening. Like when he tells Michael he'll see him again definitly soon.

Maybe, but don't forget Jack's character was supposed to die in the first episode.

yeah but Crazy, its not the first episode anymore. And perhaps they changed their minds. I dont think the fact he was supposed to die really means anything because well...he didnt die. That makes that point moot.

Well so far they have given us absolutely no reason to believe that the flashbacks are false, so for now, I must take them at face value. That being said, you see Jack looking at his dead Dad in the mourge.

Yes Crazy, but we dont' see it. And i feel a reoccuring theme is that what you think you see in your mind is not what you're really seeing.

I dont know. Before i hit the internet to read about Lost, i believed it to be a mystical island, now i'm starting to hit the scientific side of it all...strange how views change...

True about the scientific side, but just so everyone is clear they do show the body bag being unzipped and Jacks dad inside it. I do however think he is alive(via regeneration or whatever, somehow Hanso related). Most importantly is what Locke had to say in White rabbit, that maybe what Jack saw wasn't his Dad, but that he may be alive on the island.

True about the scientific side, but just so everyone is clear they do show the body bag being unzipped and Jacks dad inside it. I do however think he is alive(via regeneration or whatever, somehow Hanso related). Most importantly is what Locke had to say in White rabbit, that maybe what Jack saw wasn't his Dad, but that he may be alive on the island.

I also think that Christian is alive. He could have been drugged to make it looked like he was dead to convince Jack at the morgue. I think Christian has been a part of Dharma all along. I have no proof to back this up just my own speculation. Of course Jack finding an empty casket could have been in his head all along.

This question has been hounding me since I watched this episode. I just don't get it.

If the body was supposed to be in the casket, why did Jack only freak out for a second and not go on a tear to find the body?

If the body wasn't supposed to be in the casket, why did he freak out?

:confused:

Awwwwww

This question has been hounding me since I watched this episode. I just don't get it.

If the body was supposed to be in the casket, why did Jack only freak out for a second and not go on a tear to find the body?

If the body wasn't supposed to be in the casket, why did he freak out?

:confused:

I think he freaked out because he realized that he HAD been seeing his father after all. Jack refuses to believe that there is anything 'special' about the island. Remember how he reacts to Desmond and Locke asking about Desmond recognizing him. He completely ignores it (maybe he does his count to five thing!?!?). So he freaked out for a bit then went on as normal.

So he freaked out for a bit then went on as normal.
I hadn't watched a single episode of this show until two weeks ago, but that would be perfectly logical since I've noticed that the writers' most favorite tension-building tactic is to have everyone keeping major secrets. It actually makes me angry that they keep going to the well on that tactic, but such is life.

:drowsy:

I guess I can see Jack just holding that in to himself, particularly given some of the other things that have happened to him on the island. Still, if Jack's holding in the notion that his dad is running around the island, you have to think that he will snap soon. That's a pretty big secret to keep.

It's entirely possible that Jacks father's body was never on the plane at all. They may have just told him it was to get him to stop pitching a fit at the counter.


I think this would cause quite a lawsuit for an airline to say they placed a body on the plane when they in fact did not. I would be utterly shocked to find out this were true. "Ok, ok, your dad's body is on the plane now, get aboard" turns to the pilot and winks knowingly.

I think this would cause quite a lawsuit for an airline to say they placed a body on the plane when they in fact did not. I would be utterly shocked to find out this were true. "Ok, ok, your dad's body is on the plane now, get aboard" turns to the pilot and winks knowingly.

That would create a really big lawsuit, so I dont think that would have happened. It would just create too many legal issues.

But if Dharma controls Oceanic, what would they care?

But if Dharma controls Oceanic, what would they care?

According to Javi the crashed airliner was not a Dharma plane. You can read his post here (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=22034).

Right. He said it wasn't a Dharma plane. He didn't say it wasn't a Hanso plane. There's a lot of wiggle room in that message.

Right. He said it wasn't a Dharma plane. He didn't say it wasn't a Hanso plane. There's a lot of wiggle room in that message.

LOL Todel, I think we are following each other on this one.....:biggrin:

edited title because there's only one Jack and he only has one father :)

I also think that Christian is alive. He could have been drugged to make it looked like he was dead to convince Jack at the morgue. I think Christian has been a part of Dharma all along. I have no proof to back this up just my own speculation. Of course Jack finding an empty casket could have been in his head all along.

I´m no coroner, but I guess the procedure when someone is found dead outside a hospital is similar in Sweden, the US and Australia. Namely, a coroner preforms an autopsy to determine the cause of death. And I guarantee, non living person, no matter how drugged will survive an autopsy... Not to mention that the coroner would see that the person was still alive.....

Furthermore, why on earth would anyone want to drug Christian and put him in a casket on an airplane? There is absolutely no logic in that.

Jacks reaction when finding the casket empty could have been sheer frustration, he went across the world, to find his father and bring him home to his mother, and only to find him was difficult, there were difficulties to get the body on the plane, and when he finds the casket in the woods the body is gone, and he cannot fulfill his promise to his mom. Jacks behavior when finding the casket empty is perfectly explainable in physiological terms.
One don´t have to go searching for strange explanations when there is one perfectly logical right in front of you....

This is an interesting theory; it certainly ties together alot of plot points.

Someone mentioned how the island may have brought a few people back to life. Don't forget to include Claire's baby on that one. In the pilot episode, she said she hadn't felt the baby kick for awhile. Then, Jin gave her some of the sea urchin and right away the baby started moving again.

I think that perhaps CS was not dead when Jack saw him. Perhaps they had put him into some sort of cryogenic sleep (cryogenics is one of Hanso's projects). They put CS's imobilized body in the casket and onto Flight 815. After the plane crash, someone (the Other's, Desmond, other Others?) did what they needed to do and now CS is working on some project in one of the underground bat caves.

Now, it makes me think about Desmond meeting up with Jack in LA before Sarah's surgery. Remember when he said "Lift it up". Perhaps this was some code phrase and then when Jack didn't give the correct response, Desmond covered by saying "Your foot".

yes i tend to agree there, that desmond is in on this some how...maybe even possible that he is an unknowing participant as the lostaways are... Remember too
that Desmond said he did the medical training to become a doctor, and pulled out at the last minute? so he says... so dessie boy is as knowledgable as a doctor... and what was the real reason for pulling out??? did he not like something that he was becoming involved with, but couldn't get out and still be a doctor...

Diamondone

Ok what is the chance that Desmond Desmond and Jack are brothers? (That’s why he call him brother all the time) Part of a Dharma Gene experiment? That is why Jack father mentions something about you don't know what I’ve had to sacrifice. Jacks dad had to sacrifice his Kid(s).
Desmond who is involved in Dharma) was brought in to fix the girl by Jacks dad and they just happened to meet in the stadium.
May be he was trying to bring Jack into the organization.

I´m no coroner, but I guess the procedure when someone is found dead outside a hospital is similar in Sweden, the US and Australia. Namely, a coroner preforms an autopsy to determine the cause of death. And I guarantee, non living person, no matter how drugged will survive an autopsy... Not to mention that the coroner would see that the person was still alive.....

Furthermore, why on earth would anyone want to drug Christian and put him in a casket on an airplane? There is absolutely no logic in that.

Jacks reaction when finding the casket empty could have been sheer frustration, he went across the world, to find his father and bring him home to his mother, and only to find him was difficult, there were difficulties to get the body on the plane, and when he finds the casket in the woods the body is gone, and he cannot fulfill his promise to his mom. Jacks behavior when finding the casket empty is perfectly explainable in physiological terms.
One don´t have to go searching for strange explanations when there is one perfectly logical right in front of you....

Having been a fan of many a crime novel, I can tell you that have someone pretending to be dead is a common plot point. What happens is that the doctor/coroner/ambulance driver is in on the scheme. They show the "body", even sometimes using some drug to simulate death. Once the sucker is shown the body, the "body" is reawakened to continue on with the nefarious plot.

I don't think its such a strange explanation for such an unusual show.

kotw32 - it is my understanding that the use of the word "brother" is synonymous with "pal" or "buddy" in the UK (or, at least, that's what I learned here on the Lage).

Having been a fan of many a crime novel, I can tell you that have someone pretending to be dead is a common plot point. What happens is that the doctor/coroner/ambulance driver is in on the scheme. They show the "body", even sometimes using some drug to simulate death. Once the sucker is shown the body, the "body" is reawakened to continue on with the nefarious plot.

I don't think its such a strange explanation for such an unusual show.

Also being a fan of murder mysteries, it is not that hard to fake someone's death. It is certainly possible that Jack's dad wasn't really dead but perhaps paid a doctor or someone to proclaim that he was dead.

I am one of them that don't think that Christian Shepard is just dead and still in Sydney. But, why would he fake his death? He isn't a scumbag as Locke's dad. Was he blackmailed or forced to pretend to be dead? Have they drugged or brainwashed him? He looked cold, empty and emotionless when Jack saw him on the Island. So maybe ha have been drugged or brainwashed all along? But who would do something like that and why? Does Jack or Christian have any enemies?

I´m no coroner, but I guess the procedure when someone is found dead outside a hospital is similar in Sweden, the US and Australia. Namely, a coroner preforms an autopsy to determine the cause of death. And I guarantee, non living person, no matter how drugged will survive an autopsy... Not to mention that the coroner would see that the person was still alive.....

Furthermore, why on earth would anyone want to drug Christian and put him in a casket on an airplane? There is absolutely no logic in that.

Jacks reaction when finding the casket empty could have been sheer frustration, he went across the world, to find his father and bring him home to his mother, and only to find him was difficult, there were difficulties to get the body on the plane, and when he finds the casket in the woods the body is gone, and he cannot fulfill his promise to his mom. Jacks behavior when finding the casket empty is perfectly explainable in physiological terms.
One don´t have to go searching for strange explanations when there is one perfectly logical right in front of you....

Please read Honbun26's response. Mine was going to be verbatim.
Christian was never going on the plane. He was going be be reawakened to join up with his Hanso/Dharma pals.

Having been a fan of many a crime novel, I can tell you that have someone pretending to be dead is a common plot point. What happens is that the doctor/coroner/ambulance driver is in on the scheme. They show the "body", even sometimes using some drug to simulate death. Once the sucker is shown the body, the "body" is reawakened to continue on with the nefarious plot.

I don't think its such a strange explanation for such an unusual show.

kotw32 - it is my understanding that the use of the word "brother" is synonymous with "pal" or "buddy" in the UK (or, at least, that's what I learned here on the Lage).

Thanks Honbun26 for the backup.....:biggrin:

I am one of them that don't think that Christian Shepard is just dead and still in Sydney. But, why would he fake his death? He isn't a scumbag as Locke's dad. Was he blackmailed or forced to pretend to be dead? Have they drugged or brainwashed him? He looked cold, empty and emotionless when Jack saw him on the Island. So maybe ha have been drugged or brainwashed all along? But who would do something like that and why? Does Jack or Christian have any enemies?

Christian needs to return to Hanso/Dharma full time. Maybe Jack is ready for whatever they are planning. The best way to sever ties is plan your own death. It's not too hard to believe that Hanso/Dharma could have helped Christian with this.

Anytime!

Please read Honbun26's response. Mine was going to be verbatim.
Christian was never going on the plane. He was going be be reawakened to join up with his Hanso/Dharma pals.



Thanks Honbun26 for the backup.....:biggrin:



Christian needs to return to Hanso/Dharma full time. Maybe Jack is ready for whatever they are planning. The best way to sever ties is plan your own death. It's not too hard to believe that Hanso/Dharma could have helped Christian with this.

Also, if Jack is part of an experiment it may be time to monitor him without his father around. I don't know if Christian is a willing experiment, but I honestly believe Hanso has been experimenting on him and his son and that causing the separation on these two is a form of control for the experiment. Still not sure if I think Christian is with Hanso or if he has rebelled against them...

How are they both without each other as the crutch?

I think Christian may have been WITH them, but ultimately in the end he's going to help his son.

Who knows...WHO KNOWS!!!!

Great thread. But I need to review here, because I'm reading that the tail wreckage hasn't been found. I need someone to clear this up if I'm wrong.

Fact: At the end of "White Rabbit," Jack discovers the wreckage of the tail section near the caves/water. The dolls, the casket, Charlie's guitar, the golf clubs Hurley found, all of that was from the tail section of Oceanic 815. There is at least one good shot of the wrecked tail section in the background.

Fact: Lots of wreckage there, but no bodies. No crash victims. No survivors. No Christian Shephard. (Only Adam and Eve, in the caves.)

Fact: The site is "about a mile, if that" from the beach.

Fact: We since have learned that there originally were 23 survivors from the tail section. That number is now down to six or so. Why didn't the tail survivors head to the beach, and hook up with the other 48 or so? Logical that they would do so, for the same reason the mid-section survivors initially maintained a presence on the beach: To watch for rescue ships/planes.

Fact: Eko tells Jin, "You don't know what they're capable of" (presumably referring to the Others, or whoever is responsible for the dwindling number of tailers).

Fact: Every person that has either heard whispers or seen visions of other people was exhausted, strained, and/or sleep deprived at the time.

Conclusion: Christian Shephard's body was on the plane and in the casket. He was dead. Jack's vision of him being alive was just that - a vision. The tailers, living or dead, were taken - abducted - by the Others before they could even set up a survival camp. (The initial appearance of the "monster," in the trees the first night, had something to do with this mass abduction.) The bodies, including that of Jack's father, were taken away for some as-yet unknown purpose (but probably related to Hanso/Dharma research). The tail survivors were abducted, for reasons as yet unknown.

If you can refute this theory, please do so. Hopefully, "The Other 48 Days" will go a long way toward either confirming or refuting these ideas.

Furi161 - I like your logic and agree with you.

About the bodies, there were at least a couple of days between the crash and Jacks hike, and since there are wild animals on the island the disappearance of the bodies can simply be explained by wild animals and/or the thing eating the pilot.....

Furi161 - I like your logic and agree with you.

About the bodies, there were at least a couple of days between the crash and Jacks hike, and since there are wild animals on the island the disappearance of the bodies can simply be explained by wild animals and/or the thing eating the pilot.....

Definitely, yes there are numerous explanations of how the bodies could have disappeared.

Furi161 - I like your logic and agree with you.

About the bodies, there were at least a couple of days between the crash and Jacks hike, and since there are wild animals on the island the disappearance of the bodies can simply be explained by wild animals and/or the thing eating the pilot.....

Jack said to the Pilot when he woke up that it's been 16 hours since the plane went down. Fact. :biggrin: it wasn't days before the hike when they found the front section of the plane and pilot.

Diamondone. :hypocrit:

I was referring to the hike when Jack was looking for water and saw his father.

About bodies in the front/cockpit section, there were bodies, still strapped in the seats.

Great thread. But I need to review here, because I'm reading that the tail wreckage hasn't been found. I need someone to clear this up if I'm wrong.

Fact: At the end of "White Rabbit," Jack discovers the wreckage of the tail section near the caves/water. The dolls, the casket, Charlie's guitar, the golf clubs Hurley found, all of that was from the tail section of Oceanic 815. There is at least one good shot of the wrecked tail section in the background.

Fact: Lots of wreckage there, but no bodies. No crash victims. No survivors. No Christian Shephard. (Only Adam and Eve, in the caves.)

Fact: The site is "about a mile, if that" from the beach.

Fact: We since have learned that there originally were 23 survivors from the tail section. That number is now down to six or so. Why didn't the tail survivors head to the beach, and hook up with the other 48 or so? Logical that they would do so, for the same reason the mid-section survivors initially maintained a presence on the beach: To watch for rescue ships/planes.

Fact: Eko tells Jin, "You don't know what they're capable of" (presumably referring to the Others, or whoever is responsible for the dwindling number of tailers).

Fact: Every person that has either heard whispers or seen visions of other people was exhausted, strained, and/or sleep deprived at the time.

Conclusion: Christian Shephard's body was on the plane and in the casket. He was dead. Jack's vision of him being alive was just that - a vision. The tailers, living or dead, were taken - abducted - by the Others before they could even set up a survival camp. (The initial appearance of the "monster," in the trees the first night, had something to do with this mass abduction.) The bodies, including that of Jack's father, were taken away for some as-yet unknown purpose (but probably related to Hanso/Dharma research). The tail survivors were abducted, for reasons as yet unknown.

If you can refute this theory, please do so. Hopefully, "The Other 48 Days" will go a long way toward either confirming or refuting these ideas.

I'll take that challenge! :biggrin:

I just looked through the screen captures on Lost Media. You can see wreckage in the background when Jack finds Christian's casket. However, it doesn't have to be the tail section. You can only see a side of the plane with windows, but no visible tail. Here are the links to the pix with the wreckage:

picture 1 (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=47&pos=549)
picture 2 (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=47&pos=551)
picture 3 (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=47&pos=552)

Now, I don't know much about planes, except what I see when I fly. But (you knew there would be a but!), I always see them loading luggage in the center of the plane, not the rear. It seems like it might be safer to load luggage in the middle because of shifting weight concerns and the balance of the airplane.

So, all this to say that I don't think that Jack found the tail section; he just found more of the center of the plane. I can only assume that the tail section and the Tailers fell on the other side of the island, somewhere inland. They must have been attacked early on, as you speculate, but I don't think "the monster" our Lostites saw in the beginning was the cause. There might have been another "monster" or it might have been the Others. But, whatever attacked the Tailers, it kept them from moving on to find the beach.

In addition, not all of the Tailers were captured/killed early on. Remember in And Found when Jin came upon that guy with the knife/pole sticking out of him (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=757&pos=251)? That body was relatively fresh and this was a month and a half after they crashed. As was mentioned, there are wild animals, but the body didn't appear to have been eaten.

I am not sure how you jump from your facts section to your conclusion. None of the facts lead you to definatively state that Christian was dead. This is still only a hypothesis, and one of several possiblities.

Great post Honbon,

I'll take that challenge! :biggrin:

I just looked through the screen captures on Lost Media. You can see wreckage in the background when Jack finds Christian's casket. However, it doesn't have to be the tail section. You can only see a side of the plane with windows, but no visible tail.

After looking at them too,
I agree with ya there. I'ts not the tail section just wreckage scattered from the cargo area under the mid section of the plane. Did you also note on some of the screen captures, the shape of the Dharma symbol again appears as the same in the walt screen capture walking through the wreckage that peeps have discussed before? Blew me away again lol interesting. :biggrin: One thing is certain that casket was shut, not sign of disturbance debris and items still hanging off it, so i.e christian getting out, or being removed is not likely... pretty sure that he never boarded that plane with the casket, hence Jack's reaction because all that time he never even had his father and he was decieved by the airline. Still not made my mind up if Christian was dead or not though.... :rolleyes:
http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=47&pos=552

Now, I don't know much about planes, except what I see when I fly. But (you knew there would be a but!), I always see them loading luggage in the center of the plane, not the rear. It seems like it might be safer to load luggage in the middle because of shifting weight concerns and the balance of the airplane.

So, all this to say that I don't think that Jack found the tail section; he just found more of the center of the plane. I can only assume that the tail section and the Tailers fell on the other side of the island, somewhere inland.

I tend to agree with you that Jack didn't find the tail section at all, but i don't believe that the tail is on the island at all.:rolleyes:
As didn't Ana Lucia say to sawyer, that the tail section landed in the ocean,
she woke up under water and swam to the beach. I know she was being decieptful to find out info on them in the pit, but basically what she said otherwise was true, and i find no reason to doubt that is what happened to her and the tailies probably also floated on debris and swam ashore.
So i tend to thing that the tail is in the ocean, hence why they are tapped on the other side of the island with the remainder of the plane scattered further across the island. The island is a huge place we've seen from "adrift" i think that the tailies are right in "The others territory" hence their fate and survival has been such a challenge for them. :biggrin:

Diamondone :hypocrit:

Ok i gotcha now, :wink1:
can be read both ways lol i took it the other way as you included the pilot in it.:smile1:
Diamondone

I was referring to the hike when Jack was looking for water and saw his father.

About bodies in the front/cockpit section, there were bodies, still strapped in the seats.

One thing is certain that casket was shut, not sign of disturbance debris and items still hanging off it, so i.e christian getting out, or being removed is not likely... pretty sure that he never boarded that plane with the casket, hence Jack's reaction because all that time he never even had his father and he was decieved by the airline. Still not made my mind up if Christian was dead or not though.... :rolleyes:

That's another point I was never sure is relevant. It is my understanding that a casket has to be sealed in order to be transported by plane, especially internationally. It has to do with customs requirements. And, don't they usually place the (very expensive) casket inside another container in order to lessen potential damage?

I say this may not be relevant because perhaps the writers didn't include this because for the audience POV seeing the actual casket is easier to understand what Jack is looking at than if it was just a plain container.

Just an addendum - I just checked out the US Mexican Consulate website and they state:

In accordance with regulations of health authorities, all remains that are exported must be carried in metallic containers and placed in canvas bags.

Okay, I got a little obsessive about this. I searched the internet and found that airlines require something called an "air tray" around the casket. You can find basic information in this newspaper article (http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2004/0928/local/stories/02local.htm).

What section did Sawyer and Kate find when they were out swimming? Ana Lucia mentions waking up in the water and I wonder if she landed in the same section as the bodies Kate and Sawyer found.

I assume the seats were near where Kate and the Marshall were seated since his case was found under the seats. Then again, perhaps the case slid all the way to the tail section.

Okay, just realized I didn't answer the questions and I just confused myself even more!

That's another point I was never sure is relevant. It is my understanding that a casket has to be sealed in order to be transported by plane, especially internationally. It has to do with customs requirements. And, don't they usually place the (very expensive) casket inside another container in order to lessen potential damage?

I say this may not be relevant because perhaps the writers didn't include this because for the audience POV seeing the actual casket is easier to understand what Jack is looking at than if it was just a plain container.


Yes that is correct, All caskets have to be sealed no matter what, i.e for transportation, after any viewing, even so before the burial or cremation.:redface:
And that goes for customs transportation of a deceased in the cargo area as well. I don't know about any other custom requirements and arrangements as far as double sealed into another cargo box/ container metal or wood for shipping. But certainly there is A LOT of paper work and red tape involved with customs between australia and USA (been there done that with my visa, i'm australian) . And that is what the problem was for Jack at the terminal, the paperwork wasn't complete. :rolleyes:
http://travel.state.gov/family/family_issues/death/death_595.html
No matter what that clerk could swing, that is something she is not permitted to make a personal judgement on, as it is part of the international laws and customs requirements. :rolleyes: The body was not on the plane when Jack took off, hence the sealed/closed casket in the crash debris. Now what they did with Christian, i cannot speculate, but i'm sure it's not the first time that situation has occurred before at a terminal, and they would have to have some kind of arrangement in those situations. :biggrin:

Diamondone :smile:

I assume the seats were near where Kate and the Marshall were seated since his case was found under the seats. Then again, perhaps the case slid all the way to the tail section.

Okay, just realized I didn't answer the questions and I just confused myself even more!

LOL yeah you answered the question, :biggrin: and i think your right, the marshall's bag in the middle of the plane under the seats close by to where they were originally seated, maybe moved somewhat with the breaking up of the plane, hence no longer under kate and his seats.:rolleyes:
Though I seriously doubt it would slide backwards all the way to the tail, with restrooms blocking it's pathway, if you look at the overview of the planes layout, the front, middle and tail sections are usually separated sections by the restrooms and walls that mount the video screens and such on. Which means it was just another part of the mid section of the plane that was found. :biggrin:

Diamondone :hypocrit:

What section did Sawyer and Kate find when they were out swimming? Ana Lucia mentions waking up in the water and I wonder if she landed in the same section as the bodies Kate and Sawyer found.


see my comment about Ana Lucia :rolleyes:

As didn't Ana Lucia say to sawyer, that the tail section landed in the ocean,
she woke up under water and swam to the beach

Diamondone :biggrin:

What section did Sawyer and Kate find when they were out swimming? Ana Lucia mentions waking up in the water and I wonder if she landed in the same section as the bodies Kate and Sawyer found.

If I remember correctly, we only saw a row of seats (3 seats) with persons still strapped into their seats. No way of telling which part of the plane they came from, however it is logical to assume the seats were situated close to one of the breaks, that is just behind Kate and the Marshal, either on the fuselage part or the tail part, or close to the break in first class.....

Yes that is correct, All caskets have to be sealed no matter what, i.e for transportation, after any viewing, even so before the burial or cremation.:redface:
And that goes for customs transportation of a deceased in the cargo area as well. I don't know about any other custom requirements and arrangements as far as double sealed into another cargo box/ container metal or wood for shipping. But certainly there is A LOT of paper work and red tape involved with customs between australia and USA (been there done that with my visa, i'm australian) . And that is what the problem was for Jack at the terminal, the paperwork wasn't complete. :rolleyes:

No matter what that clerk could swing, that is something she is not permitted to make a personal judgement on, as it is part of the international laws and customs requirements. :rolleyes: The body was not on the plane when Jack took off, hence the sealed/closed casket in the crash debris. Now what they did with Christian, i cannot speculate, but i'm sure it's not the first time that situation has occurred before at a terminal, and they would have to have some kind of arrangement in those situations. :biggrin:

Diamondone :smile:


Yes, but we never see what happens after Jack gives the speech to the clerk about why he needs his father on the plane. Does she call someone? Someone up the chain of command at Oceanic Airlines that might O.K the body being on the plane? Who knows? And it would makes sense to me that if Christian were alive, and someone wanted him on the island, they would makes sure that his coffin wasn't sealed, so that he could get out when the time came. :dead:

see my comment about Ana Lucia :rolleyes:


Diamondone :biggrin:

Not to quibble but according to the transcripts here (http://www.lost-tv.com/transcripts/) Ana Lucia says:

ANA LUCIA: I don't know. I don't know. The plane came apart, and somebody's fricking hardside came out of the overhead and knocked me out. I woke up under water and made my way to the top -- swam to shore.

The case could have been what knocked her out and by shore she could have simply meant land. And considering that she was hit with something, which could have been the case since the plane was jostled all around, perhaps her memory is disturbed.

I'm just suggesting another area for survivors, who knows.

And it would makes sense to me that if Christian were alive, and someone wanted him on the island, they would makes sure that his coffin wasn't sealed, so that he could get out when the time came. :dead:

I highly doubt that anyone would count on someone in a coffin would survive a plane crash and thereby leaving the casket open......

Not to quibble but according to the transcripts here (http://www.lost-tv.com/transcripts/) Ana Lucia says:
ANA LUCIA: I don't know. I don't know. The plane came apart, and somebody's fricking hardside came out of the overhead and knocked me out. I woke up under water and made my way to the top -- swam to shore


The case could have been what knocked her out and by shore she could have simply meant land. And considering that she was hit with something, which could have been the case since the plane was jostled all around, perhaps her memory is disturbed.

I'm just suggesting another area for survivors, who knows.

i can see how you would read shore meaning lake,:ohwell:
but it's a doubtful reality though? think about it, most times shore means a shoreline on the border of land, not a pond or lake of the size they were at.

Where kate and sawyer were swimming is on the opposite side of the island and for Ana lucia to wake up there in that area of water, would have meant she was nearer to the lostaway camp... Then how does it explain her many miles now way over on the other side of the island where ana lucia is roaming with the other tailies, she wouldn't have wandered that far away from a base point. Even the other lostaways haven't managed to explore that much of the island and there are way more of them. The Tailies were still basically hanging around the beach area, and had gone inland a little and found there abandoned hatch but were inhibited doing much exploring due to the Others presence.
I really do think she meant shore aka Beach... it's more plausible with the remaining facts added to the plot don't you think? :rolleyes:

Diamondone :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

I highly doubt that anyone would count on someone in a coffin would survive a plane crash and thereby leaving the casket open......


Unless they are part of a "Life Extension," (http://www.thehansofoundation.org/activeproject.html) i.e., immortality, project.

Yes, but we never see what happens after Jack gives the speech to the clerk about why he needs his father on the plane. Does she call someone? Someone up the chain of command at Oceanic Airlines that might O.K the body being on the plane? Who knows? And it would makes sense to me that if Christian were alive, and someone wanted him on the island, they would makes sure that his coffin wasn't sealed, so that he could get out when the time came. :dead:

No we didn't find out that result, accept to see a glimpse of a casket (could be an empty one) on a baggage trolley heading to a plane passing underneath the window jack looks out of and him having a look of releif. :smile:

Not even the Airline company director couldn't bend the rules, nor over rule here even if she *speculating* 'did make a call" . As no director of an airline has the abiltily to bend the International rules, or control the recieving country policies aka the USA customs end recieving the body...

If the law isn't followed and the paperwork doesn't provide proof that all is done according to those custom laws, then that body isn't permitted to pass through customs and is sent right back to australia again. Same as the live ones whom come through with invalid documents. Beleive me it happens..and the first flight out of there there escorted back on the plane and returned.

Diamondone :rolleyes:

Not even the Airline company director couldn't bend the rules, nor over rule here even if she *speculating* 'did make a call" . As no director of an airline has the abiltily to bend the International rules, or control the recieving country policies aka the USA customs end recieving the body...

If the law isn't followed and the paperwork doesn't provide proof that all is done according to those custom laws, then that body isn't permitted to pass through customs and is sent right back to australia again. Same as the live ones whom come through with invalid documents. Beleive me it happens..and the first flight out of there there escorted back on the plane and returned.


Well, exactly. But what if the person who OK'd the body being on the plane knew that the body would never have to pass through customs, because they knew the plane wouldn't be making it to LAX. Ever.

Unless they are part of a "Life Extension," (http://www.thehansofoundation.org/activeproject.html) i.e., immortality, project.

However, that is still science fiction and everything on Lost is supposed to be possible IRL....

However, that is still science fiction and everything on Lost is supposed to be possible IRL....
Then why is it on the official site? The creators (http://www.boston.com/ae/tv/articles/2005/10/23/whos_running_the_show/) had that site created.
And would someone please point me in the direction of the quote that said everything is realtiy-based on the show? I see this being dragged up all the time, and I don't have the quote on hand, but I remember there being some ambiguity to the quote. Anyone have it?

I thought TPTB said that they were using science and pseudo-science.

Well, exactly. But what if the person who OK'd the body being on the plane knew that the body would never have to pass through customs, because they knew the plane wouldn't be making it to LAX. Ever.

Who is suppose to arrange the proper documents to ship a body back to its home country? The family member, who is not from that country and not familiar with the local laws, or the morgue director who would have all the correct forms and understand the law to coordinated the process correctly?

I would think it would be the morgue director. Because Jack is a doctor he knows a thing or about following procedure. Because if you don't follow procedure during surgery then your patient dies. Thats why I find it odd that Jack is trying to circumnavigate obvious laws. He must have thought that the proper paperwork was complete. Hanso/Dharma probably didn't count on him putting up so much of a stink. Maybe they thought that since he was so distressed that he would just go on without his father on the assumption that his father would be on a later flight. Like I've said in other posts, the incorrect paperwork was probably done just for this purpose to keep the very much alive Christian and put him to work. So when Christian didn't arrive back at home there would be evidence of a screw up. Oh sorry Dr. Sheppard we seemd to have shipped you father to Greenland. I'll let you fill in the rest.

I thought TPTB said that they were using science and pseudo-science.

Exactly. And an immortality project would certainly fit in a pseudo-science field.

Todell -

Okay, I knew I had read an interview with the pseudo-science reference. It was an interview on Sci Fi Wire with David Fury in 2004 (http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-tv.html?2004-09/07/12.00.tv).

Thanks Honbun! This is what I found most interesting:

It may not come for a very long time, but certain information about the island will explain how things are possible. We'll try to root it in real science or real pseudo-science. There will be no mystical reason or an island of monsters.

If the Dharma Initiative and the projects listed on the Hanso site aren't "pseudo-science," then I'm not sure what is. But, as you can see, it isn't all grounded in real science. I'm just saying, keep open the possibilty that Christian is alive on the island based on information we have about Hanso, and I'm happy to keep open the possibility that he is dead and/or never made it on the plane in the first place. They've given us enough information that there is an explanation for how it could go either way.

Who is suppose to arrange the proper documents to ship a body back to its home country? The family member, who is not from that country and not familiar with the local laws, or the morgue director who would have all the correct forms and understand the law to coordinated the process correctly?.

K did some research, http://travel.state.gov/law/info/death/death_708.html
The US Consulate ie the Embassey located in country of death is to be contacted by the family appointed rep, and arrangements and paperwork arranged by the family, the funeral director would be called to take the deceased from the Morgue and would do as they normally do, prepare and embalm the person and prepare the casket and seal it, the paperwork would then accompany the deceased and the escort to where ever arranged for transport out of the country. The US consulate paperwork expediates the entry through customs in the USA. Answer its a combination of efforts by many. :biggrin:

Morgue contacts next of kin, asks what arrangements they wish ie, where the deceased should be sent to, they notify the Funeral home chosen, Family contacts US consulate makes arrangements and completes appropriate paperwork, relays info to funeral home, then family escorts deceased out of country with the appropriate paperwork.

But he's still dead i say and not on the island in the life extension project, he's probably still hanging in the wings at sydney terminal somewhere... or maybe they sent him to that weird funeral home that was on the news a while back, where they faked burials and cremations and had hundreds of bodies buried all over the land behind the home and sent empty caskets to the funerals and cremations. hehehe lol :24:

Diamondone :biggrin: :biggrin:

Then why is it on the official site? The creators (http://www.boston.com/ae/tv/articles/2005/10/23/whos_running_the_show/) had that site created.
And would someone please point me in the direction of the quote that said everything is realtiy-based on the show? I see this being dragged up all the time, and I don't have the quote on hand, but I remember there being some ambiguity to the quote. Anyone have it?

Raggs answering that question; http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=20832

OK, but really look at what he says. half of the statement is rather ambiguous:

YES! As strange as some of it may seem (and some of it even seems strange to us) everything you see could actually occur in the real world. Now, the scenario that would have to take place in order for these things to happen? Well, that's a different story...

...thus leaving open the door for "pseudo-science." I think the creators were having to spend a lot of time trying to convince people that this was not purgatory, and thus all the emphasis on "the real world." But it does not eliminate the possibility of "pseudo-science" as the quote from David Fury above confirms.

I agree on there being some wiggling room, BUT what he says is (to me at least) that science fiction is not a part of Lost, and so far life extension, time traveling (also stated to not occur), droids etc IS science fiction.

As you can see in my signature, I´m a HORTA and believes in the KISS theory. Why make things more difficult then they are? To me, everything about Jacks fathers death, the transportation of the body, and Jacks reaction when finding the empty casket, is logically explained. Christopher dies in Sidney, Jack takes him home as he promised his mother, he is upset because of the arguments Jack and his father had in the past, he gets the casket with body in on the plane (after an argument with the check in personnel) and when he is stressed out, he starts hallucinating and sees his father, when he find the empty casket he realizes that the body is gone and he wont be able to take him home.
it isn´t as interesting and sci fi as some other explanations I have read, but this is the simples explanation based on the info we have gotten in the show.

K did some research, http://travel.state.gov/law/info/death/death_708.html
The US Consulate ie the Embassey located in country of death is to be contacted by the family appointed rep, and arrangements and paperwork arranged by the family, the funeral director would be called to take the deceased from the Morgue and would do as they normally do, prepare and embalm the person and prepare the casket and seal it, the paperwork would then accompany the deceased and the escort to where ever arranged for transport out of the country. The US consulate paperwork expediates the entry through customs in the USA. Answer its a combination of efforts by many. :biggrin:

Morgue contacts next of kin, asks what arrangements they wish ie, where the deceased should be sent to, they notify the Funeral home chosen, Family contacts US consulate makes arrangements and completes appropriate paperwork, relays info to funeral home, then family escorts deceased out of country with the appropriate paperwork.

But he's still dead i say and not on the island in the life extension project, he's probably still hanging in the wings at sydney terminal somewhere... or maybe they sent him to that weird funeral home that was on the news a while back, where they faked burials and cremations and had hundreds of bodies buried all over the land behind the home and sent empty caskets to the funerals and cremations. hehehe lol :24:

Diamondone :biggrin: :biggrin:

Thanks Diamondone for your research. I think my statement still stands. Why would Jack blatantly ignore the proper laws to get his father back home. Plus the mortician could still have played a part by placing weights in the coffin so no one would know that Christian is not in it....

Why would Jack blatantly ignore the proper laws to get his father back home.

To fulfill his promise to his mother, she more or less accused Jack of being responsible for Christians actions and quilted jack into going to Sydney. Furthermore, Jack blames himself probably even more. To get the body home is a symbol for doing something for his father, a way to reconcile with the past and get some kind of forgiveness .....

Or the mortician could have placed an unembalmed Christian in the coffin. I don't understand why one conspiracy is believable, and another is not.

And what Raggs' statement says to me is that they created the whole Dharma Initiative to give them an opportunity to explore pseudo-science explanations to the mysteries of the island.

Honestly? I don't think we'll ever receive a conclusive answer to what happened to Christian's body for this very reason. Some of us would be disappointed to find out that it was just that he died and Jack hallucinated, and some of us would be disappointed to discover that Christian had been a part of the Dharma project, never really died, and walked away from the crash. As long as they keep it up in the air, none of the viewers will be disappointed, and these discussions can continue forever! :)

Honestly? I don't think we'll ever receive a conclusive answer to what happened to Christian's body for this very reason. Some of us would be disappointed to find out that it was just that he died and Jack hallucinated, and some of us would be disappointed to discover that Christian had been a part of the Dharma project, never really died, and walked away from the crash. As long as they keep it up in the air, none of the viewers will be disappointed, and these discussions can continue forever! :)

I can only agree, for once ;)

I agree on there being some wiggling room, BUT what he says is (to me at least) that science fiction is not a part of Lost, and so far life extension, time traveling (also stated to not occur), droids etc IS science fiction.

As you can see in my signature, I´m a HORTA and believes in the KISS theory. Why make things more difficult then they are? To me, everything about Jacks fathers death, the transportation of the body, and Jacks reaction when finding the empty casket, is logically explained. Christopher dies in Sidney, Jack takes him home as he promised his mother, he is upset because of the arguments Jack and his father had in the past, he gets the casket with body in on the plane (after an argument with the check in personnel) and when he is stressed out, he starts hallucinating and sees his father, when he find the empty casket he realizes that the body is gone and he wont be able to take him home.
it isn´t as interesting and sci fi as some other explanations I have read, but this is the simples explanation based on the info we have gotten in the show.

Kristina, I think you are getting hung up on semantics. Pseudo-science is just another way to say science fiction. From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo_science)...

Pseudoscience is any body of knowledge, methodology, or practice that is erroneously regarded as scientific

Click on the Wikipedia link for a very detailed definition.

On a side note, I'm a sci-fi fan and proud of it! Most (good) sci-fi books are based, in part, on scientific theory. In fact, some writers are scientists. Take for example Issac Asimov. He was a prolific sci-fi writer and also a well regarded physicist. He wrote some seminal pieces on black hole theory. In addition, a lot of what sci-fi writers dream up becomes true years later.

All this to say, I think we will see things on Lost that have a basis in current scientific thought and theory but has not been actualized yet.

I can only agree, for once ;)

What's funny, Kristina, is that I'm not agitating that the discussion stop by saying that we'll never receive an answer. The more we argue, the stronger each side of the arguement becomes. The more you have to defend a position, the clearer it becomes. So keep it coming!:wink3:

Why would Jack blatantly ignore the proper laws to get his father back home. ...

Well i don't believe Jack is blatantly ignoring any laws, he's just stressing out and trying to make someone here his plight and importance of his duty to get his father home.
Put your self in Jacks shoes... You would be SUPER STRESSED and on top of that GREIVING.
No matter what rational knowledge you have plus after being explained of the laws, the frustration of being stopped in your plans, and left with a disorganised no quick fix to an urgent problem would leave you feeling extremely agitated and upset.
You know you have a whole funeral planned out and waiting and depending on you back home... having any delay with no idea of how long that delay would be, would warrant that kind of reaction from anyone. Let alone a stranger in a strange country unaware of how that country handles these matters, and what they practice for their own rules. Regardless of him being a doctor, all doctors do with the management of a deceased person is pronounce them dead and issue and sign death certificates> After that they don't have any part in the processes of what happens beyond that. So being a doctor doesn't give jack the knowledge of how a deceased person in processed after passing.
Diamondone :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Kristina, I think you are getting hung up on semantics. Pseudo-science is just another way to say science fiction. From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo_science)...

Perhaps I´m, since English isn´t my first language it is a bit more difficult to get my point than for the majority of you.

I took a look at Oxford English Dictionary and found the following;
Pseudoscience; http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/50191499?single=1&query_type=word&queryword=pseudoscience&first=1&max_to_show=10
Science fiction; http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/50215798?single=1&query_type=word&queryword=science+fiction&first=1&max_to_show=10

I agree they are similar but not the same.

I can only speak for my self, but I have to admit that I would be VERY disappointed if Lost turns into a new version of the X files, and starts circling about life extension, clairvoyance, time traveling, aliens, strange genetic experiments etc.

To fulfill his promise to his mother, she more or less accused Jack of being responsible for Christians actions and quilted jack into going to Sydney. Furthermore, Jack blames himself probably even more. To get the body home is a symbol for doing something for his father, a way to reconcile with the past and get some kind of forgiveness .....

Good points... exactly!
Jack is in the greiving stage that he feels responsible for his fathers death, re afirmed by his mothers' point of making jack accountable for his fathers actions. Jack trying to make it right by doing this final important act, and get that forgiveness from within himself. But having the plane crash prevents him fullfilling that physically, but on an emotional level his now feeling he completely failed that mission, as his father was all that time not in the casket after finding it opening it and no dad inside. Bringing up all that emotion all over again, the anger, the frustration, feelings of failing that one important act. And now never being able to forgive him self, and be forgived spiritually by his dad....The emotions we see fromt he episode is a reflection of all that self blame, guilt, anger, denial...

On another note, this is another theory i'd like to toy with :rolleyes:
The hallucination/?Dream of his dad on the island? We don't really know if that whole scene of finding the casket as well as seeing his dad, is all included in several or one big dream sequence at all.. and the Writers have inserted lots of dream sequences that appear mixed with reality..
I'm kinda thinking that whole scene finding the coffin seeing his dads image was all one dream entwined.... :biggrin:

Diamondone...:hypocrit:

Diamondone - I agree with you on Jacks emotion, what I saw was a very frustrated and desperate man, grieving his father and knowing that he would never ever get to talk things through, never be able to get forgiveness. Let´s not forget that he had been working day and night, was very tired, probably dehydrated and had a hardly eaten....


About the hallucination; That is not impossible, since we never saw anything more of the casket. The bags and fuselage parts were left when Jack returned with Kate, Locke and Charlie but no casket (as far as I remember at least...). That could suggest it was a dream.

So you accept that Jack could receive a vision in a dream that tells him where to find shelter and water? Why that seems rather improbable to me! Sorta sci-fish!

No I accept that Jack was wandering around the jungle and saw things that were not really there and ultimately ended up at the caves.

Kristina -

I guess our disagreement is the whole point of the show! I know I read an article with one of TPTB that notd that this season would be all about the struggle between Locke's side (faith) and Jack's (science). I guess I never though I'd be in Locke's camp, but here I am!

Kristina -

I guess our disagreement is the whole point of the show! I know I read an article with one of TPTB that notd that this season would be all about the struggle between Locke's side (faith) and Jack's (science). I guess I never though I'd be in Locke's camp, but here I am!

And I never thought I would take sides with Jack*** :biggrin:

What is that saying about strange bedfellows?

So you accept that Jack could receive a vision in a dream that tells him where to find shelter and water? Why that seems rather improbable to me! Sorta sci-fish!
yes , i do believe there is alot of unexplained spiritual FAITH type stuff out there,
*and that coming from a person of the science field hehe*,
Many Believe that the dead can do stuff like this in dreams as a way of angel like guidance, connecting with us to reassure us. But maybe in this case Christian is dead and manifesting as his own image in a way of guidance for jack to find the water and shelter..The again i agree with Kristina that he was sleep deprived and wandered aimlessy is a plausible "SCIENCE aka Logical" explanation....

Not all things in life can be explained with science though, Faith seems to hold those answers, kind of a Ying and Yang thing, Black stone white stone thing, they go hand in hand and one cannot exist without the other....

Just cos you believe in one, doesn't mean the other doesn't co exist...
that is where we struggle with faith -
For those people of the world who don't beleive in the unexplainable can't accept it...

Diamondone :biggrin:

We've already seen two other people being brought back from the brink of death: Rose and Charlie. What if Jack didn't bring 'em back?

Rose I believe to have been in on the simulation, and to have been in a simulated state of brink-of-death. Jack couldn't miss; she'd've eventually woken up on her own.

Actually, we have seen some bodies. In Episode 1 when they get to the front of the plane (to get the tranciever) there were bodies in the front section. not many but we did see one or two.
Also, at the start of Whatever The Case May Be when Sawyer and Kate jumped in to the pond thing, with the waterfall, they found a bunch of people still strapped in their seats at the bottom of the pond. One seathad the case with the guns under it.
So there are bodies around, and they always spoke of the bodies in the middle section on the beach, so i guess, just because we dont see them, doesnt mean they arent around. I also guess, there is a limit to what they can show us on TV, and dead bodies may be pushing it a bit.

those bodies had facial skin and muscle removed-way too much decomposition to be part of flight 815. those corpses are from another flight.

those bodies had facial skin and muscle removed-way too much decomposition to be part of flight 815. those corpses are from another flight.

Remember, this is a tropical island, rather moist climate and probably a LOT of bacteria, insects etc.... Bodies decomposes very fast under those conditions

Remember, this is a tropical island, rather moist climate and probably a LOT of bacteria, insects etc.... Bodies decomposes very fast under those conditions

Very true. The rate of decomposition is dependant on climate.

Because I NEVER tire of this argument, I thought I dredge it back up.

To become reacquainted: I believe Christian is alive. (Or something like being alive, i.e. he can't die. He's become immortal.)

Something just occurred to me after reading Mr. Find's thread on Beautiful, which is that Jack has the "hallucination" of his father on the island. No one else sees anyone from their past who is dead, but they do feel as though they are being haunted. Sawyer with his boar, Kate with Wayne's "possession" of Sawyer. My point being, no one else sees "ghosts," but rather possessions. Christian is the only "ghost" that we see.

My point being, is there a difference between the vision of Christian and the other hauntings that we see? The other hauntings manifest themselves through others, but not Christian.

Because I NEVER tire of this argument, I thought I dredge it back up.


My point being, is there a difference between the vision of Christian and the other hauntings that we see? The other hauntings manifest themselves through others, but not Christian.

I agree. Christian is also the only "hallucination" we see when a character isn't looking directly at it. In White Rabbit, Jack is looking at the ground near the end of the ep. We SEE his father walk by in the background and Jack HEARS it (or the sound of ice clinking in the glass anyway). That's no hallucination. He then follows the sound to the water/casket.

Another thing I believe points to Christian being alive is his shoes. Shoes are a recurring theme in the show, I know. Locke's shoes are off in the pilot, Kate switches shoes with a corpse, and we see the white sneaker in the tree when Jack wakes in the jungle. Along with the whole Others lack of footprints thing.
But, they usually don't put shoes on corpses in caskets. Often pants aren't even on the body. I've written about this in threads before b/c Christian being alive is one of my pet theories as it is for many of us in this thread.

I think his shoes are the biggest clue. He's not just wearing white shoes because he's the proverbial White Rabbit for Jack in the ep. I think that's too easy a clue. They don't spoonfeed us easy clues like that. At least they haven't so far. Dead men don't wear shoes!!

Dead men don't wear shoes! Dead men have no soles! Dead men have no souls!

Great connection, Roger!

I agree. Christian is also the only "hallucination" we see when a character isn't looking directly at it. In White Rabbit, Jack is looking at the ground near the end of the ep. We SEE his father walk by in the background and Jack HEARS it (or the sound of ice clinking in the glass anyway). That's no hallucination. He then follows the sound to the water/casket.

Another thing I believe points to Christian being alive is his shoes. Shoes are a recurring theme in the show, I know. Locke's shoes are off in the pilot, Kate switches shoes with a corpse, and we see the white sneaker in the tree when Jack wakes in the jungle. Along with the whole Others lack of footprints thing.
But, they usually don't put shoes on corpses in caskets. Often pants aren't even on the body. I've written about this in threads before b/c Christian being alive is one of my pet theories as it is for many of us in this thread.

I think his shoes are the biggest clue. He's not just wearing white shoes because he's the proverbial White Rabbit for Jack in the ep. I think that's too easy a clue. They don't spoonfeed us easy clues like that. At least they haven't so far. Dead men don't wear shoes!!

Yay! This is the second thread mentioning shoes today. Don't know what it would mean, but remember that Sun's mom switches the shoes she is going to wear.From black heels to white flats, iirc.

but, yay for christian being alive. i mean his name is christian. I am with you, one of those with a pet theory about christian. no evidence, but I wonder if Goodwin was looking for Christian, and was spotted by Bernard and thus, adapted.

LOL yeah you answered the question, :biggrin: and i think your right, the marshall's bag in the middle of the plane under the seats close by to where they were originally seated, maybe moved somewhat with the breaking up of the plane, hence no longer under kate and his seats.:rolleyes:
Though I seriously doubt it would slide backwards all the way to the tail, with restrooms blocking it's pathway, if you look at the overview of the planes layout, the front, middle and tail sections are usually separated sections by the restrooms and walls that mount the video screens and such on. Which means it was just another part of the mid section of the plane that was found. :biggrin:

Diamondone :hypocrit:

Kate tells Jack that the Halliburton case was checked by the Marshall because the airline would not let him bring it on board. So how did that piece of checked baggage land under the seat of the dead couple in the middle of the lake?

In that epi, Kate heard the sound of the water and it was Sawyer who suggested swimming. Perhaps "the island" wanted Kate to have the toy plane back but what did she give it in return? Charlie gave up drugs and got his guitar back in the Moth episode...Locke got his legs back and wants to keep everyone on the island in return (hit Sayid over head to prevent signal transmission.) So here's my question for continuing discussion on this thread (I'm also a believer of "Christian faked his death and is alive on the island" theory) -- what did Kate give or will she be required to give?

Kate tells Jack that the Halliburton case was checked by the Marshall because the airline would not let him bring it on board. So how did that piece of checked baggage land under the seat of the dead couple in the middle of the lake?

In that epi, Kate heard the sound of the water and it was Sawyer who suggested swimming. Perhaps "the island" wanted Kate to have the toy plane back but what did she give it in return? Charlie gave up drugs and got his guitar back in the Moth episode...Locke got his legs back and wants to keep everyone on the island in return (hit Sayid over head to prevent signal transmission.) So here's my question for continuing discussion on this thread (I'm also a believer of "Christian faked his death and is alive on the island" theory) -- what did Kate give or will she be required to give?

we don't know that she hasn't given something up already. She tells the marshall that he doesn't know why she killed Wayne. Maybe it was a form of initiation. We don't know what else she learned about her supposed father, Austin, aside from when he was stationed in Korea. Perhaps she has learned more about Wayne, other than he was just a bad guy. Maybe he was 'bad' in the Dharma sense. He needed to go.

I don't know, I'm just a conspiracist, of course. I just think the subjunctive is really really important in this show. Just because they gave us an episode called "what kate did" and we see what she did, did we see any reason why? We don't see Wayne beating her mom up (like Sawyer's memory of his parents) we don't see Wayne's pov at any point. What if Kate did it because... becomes the question.

BTW, Have you heard the good news? Christian is risen! I've said it hundreds of times and I'll continue to say it, CHRISTIAN is alive. I don't need for him not to wear shoes or white shoes as evidence, we've seen him on the island and his name is Christian. I take it on faith.

[quote=cmcdtv;675824] Perhaps she has learned more about Wayne, other than he was just a bad guy. Maybe he was 'bad' in the Dharma sense. He needed to go. quote]

cmcdtv - I'm with you on this. Maybe she tried to explain her reasoning to the Marshall and he finds the story (dharma) ludicrous. That is why he says (increduously), "Don't worry, kiddo, maybe they'll believe your story."

His knowledge (through Kate) and disbelief may be why he needed to be eliminated/killed.

[quote=cmcdtv;675824] Perhaps she has learned more about Wayne, other than he was just a bad guy. Maybe he was 'bad' in the Dharma sense. He needed to go. quote]

cmcdtv - I'm with you on this. Maybe she tried to explain her reasoning to the Marshall and he finds the story (dharma) ludicrous. That is why he says (increduously), "Don't worry, kiddo, maybe they'll believe your story."

His knowledge (through Kate) and disbelief may be why he needed to be eliminated/killed.

That's part way toward what I think. I do think that when the Marshal said to Kate on the plane, "There's always a chance they'll believe your story. I know I do.", that had a hidden meaning that we'll eventually find out. (The "obvious" meaning was that her "story" would be whatever she'd tell a jury, and the audience was supposed to be fooled into thinking that's what it meant.) I think Kate and the Marshal did know about events that we now see unfolding on Craphole, but I doubt they had anything to do with Wayne.

That's why the Marshal asked Kate for confirmation that he was going to die. He wasn't looking for her to pass along medical prognosis from Jack; rather, he was seeking confirmation, and/or showing her that he knew, that he had to be put to death.

Rewatch the 2 hous of "Pilot" on DVD 1, and pay att'n to Kate's lines. They're cleverly constructed to sound innocent, but she's probing for info that other Losties know more than they're supposed to. Had Jack, Charlie, or Sawyer given "wrong" answers to certain questions -- "Why aren't you afraid?" "How do you know...?" "Have we met before?" -- they were to get the Marshal treatment.

Robert

Kate tells Jack that the Halliburton case was checked by the Marshall because the airline would not let him bring it on board. So how did that piece of checked baggage land under the seat of the dead couple in the middle of the lake?

In that epi, Kate heard the sound of the water and it was Sawyer who suggested swimming. Perhaps "the island" wanted Kate to have the toy plane back but what did she give it in return? Charlie gave up drugs and got his guitar back in the Moth episode...Locke got his legs back and wants to keep everyone on the island in return (hit Sayid over head to prevent signal transmission.) So here's my question for continuing discussion on this thread (I'm also a believer of "Christian faked his death and is alive on the island" theory) -- what did Kate give or will she be required to give?

Exodus part 1
Official: You going to be armed?
Marshal: Yes, sir, ankle holster.
Official: You have to stow this in the crew luggage compartment in the front. (Haliburton Case.)

If Christian faked his death it's a real good trick. He was already missing for 3 days when Jack got to OZ. We don't know how long he was in the morgue but they ran blood tests on him. We went into this when the episode first aired. I'll see if I can find the thread.

Doctor: The police found him in an alley in Kings Cross. Now, a tox screen showed a blood alcohol content, which for a man of his size, probably brought on myocardial infarction a sizable, and fatal heat attack.

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=4437 Clues into the death of Dr. Christian Shephard

Exodus part 1
Official: You going to be armed?
Marshal: Yes, sir, ankle holster.
Official: You have to stow this in the crew luggage compartment in the front. (Haliburton Case.)

If Christian faked his death it's a real good trick. He was already missing for 3 days when Jack got to OZ. We don't know how long he was in the morgue but they ran blood tests on him. We went into this when the episode first aired. I'll see if I can find the thread.

Doctor: The police found him in an alley in Kings Cross. Now, a tox screen showed a blood alcohol content, which for a man of his size, probably brought on myocardial infarction a sizable, and fatal heat attack.

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=4437 Clues into the death of Dr. Christian Shephard

We have discussed before, before Hanso Foundation and Life Extension were introduced on the show.

Second of all, faking his death, that isn't such a stretch in literature. Romeo kills himself because Juliet has taken a drug that makes her appear dead so it isn't a stretch that a similar story would be used for a character named Christian Shepherd. And yeah he's been gone for 3 days, perhaps collecting things he needs for his objective he is a spinal surgeon who may no more about slowing the body down than the average person.

Third of all, you can run blood tests on living people and the Doctor says it was probably a heart attack and I don't remember seeing any scars from an autoposy when we see his body and the doctor doesn't mention one.

We have discussed before, before Hanso Foundation and Life Extension were introduced on the show.

Second of all, faking his death, that isn't such a stretch in literature. Romeo kills himself because Juliet has taken a drug that makes her appear dead so it isn't a stretch that a similar story would be used for a character named Christian Shepherd. And yeah he's been gone for 3 days, perhaps collecting things he needs for his objective he is a spinal surgeon who may no more about slowing the body down than the average person.

Third of all, you can run blood tests on living people and the Doctor says it was probably a heart attack and I don't remember seeing any scars from an autoposy when we see his body and the doctor doesn't mention one.
They didn't embalm Juliet. :)

1: The first requirement comes from the airlines, and that would be the requirement for the remains to be embalmed. I do not know of any airline that will ship an unembalmed body. Also, the airlines require that the body be shipped in an approved container or "air-tray." Additionally, each foreign country has different rules and regulations regarding the shipping of human remains. Some of the more common requirements would be for the following documents to accompany the body: death certificate, embalming report, passport, burial permit, and a letter from the physician stating that the deceased did not die from a communicable disease. (this was written by a coroner)

Yes, they can fake the paperwork and all that, it is TV but it does seem that Jack was missing some paperwork because the airline couldn't let the body on the plane. If it was a plan or sceme to get Christian out alive, and they went through all the trouble to fake his death, wouldn't they have the paperwork correct?

The Dr. didn't say they performed an autopsy, so probably not.
http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=47&pos=510

They didn't embalm Juliet. Embalming is one of the things that has to happen for a body to be taken out of a country. Yes, they can fake the paperwork and all that, it is TV.

Was it ever said he was embalmed? If I remember correctly Jack was having a difficult time getting his body out of the country.

Was it ever said he was embalmed? If I remember correctly Jack was having a difficult time getting his body out of the country.

I don't remember the discussion of embalming coming up, and the agent didn't say what the problem was, so agreed sister.

Which begs the question, how and why was was it allowed on the plane? Who gave approval to the agent to allow Jack and his father onto the plane? And if that person knew the plane would never make it to America, they could easily allow a non embalmed body onto the plane.

I looked and can't find that any of TPTB confirmed that the coffin was really on the island. I could be wrong.

I don't remember any of the other Lostaways seeing the coffin. I went back and watched WR and HOTRS. I think the coffin could be a Jack hallucination. We only see the coffin in WR, it isn't there in HOTRS. It is extremely odd that Jack finds the coffin inside the cave. It's strange that wreckage is in there too????

I don't think Christian's body was ever on the plane, that doesn't mean that he isn't on the island though.

I don't think Christian's body was ever on the plane, that doesn't mean that he isn't on the island though.

touche, SamG, touche.:biggrin:

I'm just married to the resurrection theme of his name I guess, it could still apply though.

[QUOTE=Punky;675850]

That's part way toward what I think. I do think that when the Marshal said to Kate on the plane, "There's always a chance they'll believe your story. I know I do.", that had a hidden meaning that we'll eventually find out. (The "obvious" meaning was that her "story" would be whatever she'd tell a jury, and the audience was supposed to be fooled into thinking that's what it meant.) I think Kate and the Marshal did know about events that we now see unfolding on Craphole, but I doubt they had anything to do with Wayne.

That's why the Marshal asked Kate for confirmation that he was going to die. He wasn't looking for her to pass along medical prognosis from Jack; rather, he was seeking confirmation, and/or showing her that he knew, that he had to be put to death.



Dr Suds - I like your interpretation of the Marshall asking Kate if he was going to die.

I'm going to rewatch the Pilot episode & pay attention to Kate's dialogue.

[QUOTE=Dr. Suds;676949]

Dr Suds - I like your interpretation of the Marshall asking Kate if he was going to die.

I'm going to rewatch the Pilot episode & pay attention to Kate's dialogue.Punky,
Come over and read "Juice - the theory"
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=15069

I totally argee that there is more meaning to the lines. We haven't seen the flashback where Kate is calling the Marshal @ home. She had to have more contact with him. Why bother trying to reson with him? How'd she get his home phone number? Someone connected to the Marshal had to have gotten her the key to the Safe Deposit Box and at least given her given her the clue as to what town it was in.

There is a much bigger relationship between Kate and the Marshal, everything the Marshal says to Jack is important, look back and watch with the new information you have. It's amazing what pops out now. I agree with Dr. Suds that Kate was probing for information in the beginning episodes but I disagree about the Marshal, I think there was a much closer bond between Kate and the Marshal, I think he fell for her or at least believed her story at one point but Kate broke away. The Love/Hate coin? In the end when he was dying, he knew it, knew what pain he was in, knew Kate had killed before, he asked her to end his misery and she couldn't but Sawyer was there and stepped in.

Sam G - I agree that there is definitely more the relationship between the Marshall & Kate. I was hoping for more info on that with the last episode! There is definitely a big gap to be filled in. One thing that stand out in my mind with Kate is - how did she know Wayne was her father? She found out the man married to her mother could not be her father. Is she assuming Wayne is her father or does she know it for sure? Hope that question gets answered. Whoa, getting way off the thread topic here! Sorry.

To get back on topic of Jack's Dad - If the coffin was on the plane - I think it was empty. I believe whole Christian was missing & died was a ruse to get Jack to Australia & on the plane. For some reason, Jack must believe his father is dead.

I looked and can't find that any of TPTB confirmed that the coffin was really on the island. I could be wrong.

I don't remember any of the other Lostaways seeing the coffin. I went back and watched WR and HOTRS. I think the coffin could be a Jack hallucination. We only see the coffin in WR, it isn't there in HOTRS. It is extremely odd that Jack finds the coffin inside the cave. It's strange that wreckage is in there too????


Just because Jack was the only one who saw the coffin, doesn't mean that it's a hallucination. I couldn't imagin Jack returning home without his father's body. He likely would have stay behind and take another flight.

I don't think Christian's body was ever on the plane, that doesn't mean that he isn't on the island though.

....when Jack found the empty coffin, we all assume that it belong to Jack's father, but it also could have belong to sayid, who was on his way to claim his friend body. so the coffin Jack found, could have belong to Sayid's friend.



From The Greater Good:

Agent Hewitt

Yeah, well, there's no one to claim the body.

Sayid

I'll claim him.

Agent Hewitt

You can't claim him when you're on a plane in 2 hours, mate.

Sayid

Then change my flight to tomorrow. The agents nod in agreement.

iamlost2, dude you got it all wrong. The whole reason Sayid's flight was changed to a day after was because he wanted to stay in Sydney and bury his friend there. Thats why he said he should be buried, he would bury him, not take him on the plane. In the finale of season one when sayid was in it, it showed him waiting for his plane, and there was no sign of a mention of a coffin there.

This whole delay of Sayid's flight was supposed to depict that he had a choice, just like Locke did when they said they couldnt find the wheelchair and they asked if they could carry him on, otherwise he'd have to get a different flight. just like when Jack could of stopped at sydney when the secretary told him he couldnt put the body on the plane.Charlie had a choice to stay with hsi brother and go to rehab, they all had a choice, i can't be bothered to explain this all. They created their own destinies, they chose this path.

Just because Jack was the only one who saw the coffin, doesn't mean that it's a hallucination. I couldn't imagin Jack returning home without his father's body. He likely would have stay behind and take another flight.
From The Greater Good:When Jack is the only one to see the coffin and we go back to the caves with the Lostaways and there's no sign of it, it makes me think hallucination. Short of producing the proper documentation, I don't think Jack got his father's body on the plane.

Jack: What do you mean you won't put it on the plane?
Chrissy: I'm sorry Mr. Shepard, but out policy is that the body must have the proper documentation. There's just no latitude.
Jack: No latitude? No latitude?
Chrissy: Without the proper documents...
Jack: Look you can't do this to me. I'm ready to go now.
Chrissy: Perhaps another carrier...
Jack: No! I want you to listen to me, okay. Because I'm asking you a favor, Crissy. I'm standing in front of you in the same suit that I'm wearing to my father's funeral and I'm asking you a favor. In 16 hours I need to land at LAX, and I need that coffin to clear customs because there's going to be a hearse waiting there. And I need that hearse to take me and that coffin to a cemetery. Why? Crissy, why can't I just bring him to a funeral home and make all the arrangements? Why can't I really take my time with it? Because because I need it to be done. I need it to be over. I just... I need to bury my father.

The other option is Jack taking the empty coffin to LA to burry and have closure.

Sam -

I don't buy the empty coffin theory because I don't picture Jack doing that. There is no reason to have a funeral with a closed coffin; they would most likely have open viewing. Even if they didn't, I can't imagine is mother not wanting a viewing. Can you imagine how she would have wigged out if Jack brought back an empty casket. After all, she was the one who sent him to bring his father back.

One of the first things we see in Lost is Jack's dad's white shoe hanging on a branch in the bamboo forest that Jack wakes up in, so logic says he was on the plane, but then again....

Sorry if it's been mentioned before, as a latecomer to the forum it's almost impossible to contribute witout feeling it's alllllll been said before, I tried to read the whole thread, I really did

One thing that stand out in my mind with Kate is - how did she know Wayne was her father?.

She was making a photo album and came across photos of her army dad in, can't remember where it was, Korea I think (probably important), but the photos were dated 4 months after her mom was pregnant with Kate, meaning he was'nt her real dad, hope that makes sense

I can't agree with the empty coffin either - at least insofar as Jack knew. He says he needs to bury his father, to have it done, but burying an empty coffin doesn't really accomplish that. And if he knew there was no body, wouldn't he have just told the lady at the counter that it was an empty coffin? Then there wouldn't have been a problem. Jack definitely thought his dad was in there. Whether he was or not is debatable.
I originally liked the idea the Christian may have faked his death, but if he was going to go through all that trouble to make sure Jack was on the flight, wouldn't he have made sure that Jack was given all of the necessary paperwork to avoid any customs problems?

White Rabbit

JACK: I want you to listen to me, okay? Because I'm asking you a favor.
Chrissy, I'm standing in front of you in the same suit that I'm wearing to my
father's funeral, and I'm asking you a favor. In sixteen hours, I need to land
at L.A.X. And I need that coffin to clear customs because there's gonna be a
hearse waiting there. And I need that hearse to take me and that coffin to a
cemetery. Why? Chrissy, why can't I just bring him to a funeral home and make
all the arrangements? Why can't I really take my time with it? Because --
because I need it to be done. I need it to be over. (with tears in his eyes) I
just -- I need to bury my father.

There was going to be no viewing, no open coffin. I think Christian caused a scandal. I don't think Margo and Christian were still married. http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=255&pos=600

The only other choice for me is the coffin was an hallucination.
I just don't see the airlines bending the rules, maybe the right paperwork showd up, short of that the body doesn't get on the plane.

One thing that stand out in my mind with Kate is - how did she know Wayne was her father? She found out the man married to her mother could not be her father. Is she assuming Wayne is her father or does she know it for sure? Hope that question gets answered. Whoa, getting way off the thread topic here! Sorry.



She was making a photo album and came across photos of her army dad in, can't remember where it was, Korea I think (probably important), but the photos were dated 4 months after her mom was pregnant with Kate, meaning he was'nt her real dad, hope that makes sense

Richardstone - yes, that explains how she found out Sam Austen was not her father. It doesn't explain how she she found out that Wayne is her father. I don't think that has been revealed yet.

As for the coffin - nice catch Sam G. - Jack does see it in the cave but when he brings people back there - there's no coffin. I'm going to have to rewatch some episodes!

There was going to be no viewing, no open coffin. I think Christian caused a scandal. I don't think Margo and Christian were still married.

Sam - I didn't get that feeling from Jack's mother (that they are seperated. Here is the conversation between his Mom (Margo) and Jack:

Margo: Your father's gone Jack. Did you hear what I said? He's gone Jack.

Jack: He'll be back.

Margo: This time it's different. I want you to bring him back.

Jack: He hasn't talked to me in 2 months, Mom.

Margo: You have talked to him in 2 months.

Jack: He doesn't want me to bring him back, trust me. Let one of his friends.

Margo: He doesn't have friends anymore. Why do you think that is? He was right about you.

Jack: Right about what?

Margo: You don't understand the pressure that he's under.

Jack: I understand pressure.

Margo: Jack, please you know how he gets. . . he doesn't. He won't take care of himself. You have to go after him.

Jack: I'm sorry. I can't.

Margo: I can't? You don't get to say "I can't." Not after what you did. Bring your father home, Jack.

Remember how she was acting? She was frantic. When she gets to the "I can't" dialogue, it looked like Margo was about to, uh, *female dog* slap Jack. :rolleyes:

I don't think a woman that worked up is:
a. seperated from her husband; and
b. willing to allow a closed casket/direct to the cemetary funeral.

Jack may have said that he wants to take his father to the cemetary, but he might have just said it that way to be overly dramatic and get his point across.

White Rabbit

JACK: I want you to listen to me, okay? Because I'm asking you a favor.
Chrissy, I'm standing in front of you in the same suit that I'm wearing to my
father's funeral, and I'm asking you a favor. In sixteen hours, I need to land
at L.A.X. And I need that coffin to clear customs because there's gonna be a
hearse waiting there. And I need that hearse to take me and that coffin to a
cemetery. Why? Chrissy, why can't I just bring him to a funeral home and make
all the arrangements? Why can't I really take my time with it? Because --
because I need it to be done. I need it to be over. (with tears in his eyes) I
just -- I need to bury my father.

There was going to be no viewing, no open coffin. I think Christian caused a scandal. I don't think Margo and Christian were still married. http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=255&pos=600

The only other choice for me is the coffin was an hallucination.
I just don't see the airlines bending the rules, maybe the right paperwork showd up, short of that the body doesn't get on the plane.http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=364&pos=526

His dad isn't wearing a wedding ring in either picture. I'm off hunting for better screen caps from White Rabbit in his father's office, when he's a kid and MoS/MoF to see if his dad has a wedding ring on when he's walking in the hall with Jack. I know some men just don't wear them but I think, I need to look anyway.

http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=364&pos=526

His dad isn't wearing a wedding ring in either picture. I'm off hunting for better screen caps from White Rabbit in his father's office, when he's a kid and MoS/MoF to see if his dad has a wedding ring on when he's walking in the hall with Jack. I know some men just don't wear them but I think, I need to look anyway.

I think this is an interesting avenue to go down--just throwing a fly into the ointment--he is a surgeon. As a surgeon's daughter, I've known a few who never bothered with them. Too much trouble when you're scrubbing in and out. But! Still very interesting.

Richardstone - yes, that explains how she found out Sam Austen was not her father. It doesn't explain how she she found out that Wayne is her father. I don't think that has been revealed yet.

As for the coffin - nice catch Sam G. - Jack does see it in the cave but when he brings people back there - there's no coffin. I'm going to have to rewatch some episodes!

He smashes the coffin up though doesn't he? He could have used the wood for something else, like kindling for fires in the caves?

He smashes the coffin up though doesn't he? He could have used the wood for something else, like kindling for fires in the caves?


Thanks for clearing that up for me cmcdtv! That would make sense.

He smashes the coffin up though doesn't he? He could have used the wood for something else, like kindling for fires in the caves?
Jack seems to have a temper...as does Locke (anger management class), Helen (same, although she's not on the Island...yet)...as does Ana Lucia...perhaps we'll find out such about Eko in his epi...perhaps Charlie too (his addiction)? Just noting, in case this means something. I still think that all the stress could be contributing to their behavior, but.

http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=29740

I adress this at length in my post "How Jack's Dad Crashed the Plane... Kinda"

What if Christian Shepherd was "supposed to be on" flight 815? What if he gummed up the master plan by having the nerve to die a couple of days too early? What if Jack is filling that slot by proxy? Paying for the sins of his father?

Jack just seems too decent to be on Craphole Island with all the murderers, con artists, and maniacs. Now Christian Shepherd would have fit right in.

He smashes the coffin up though doesn't he? He could have used the wood for something else, like kindling for fires in the caves?Except when? He goes back to camp with no wood and we see the caves when everyone comes back with him. No Coffin.

I just went through the screen caps and now I have to watch the DVD because, if Jack thought his father was supposed to be in the coffin, wouldn't he have acted surprised instead of mad when the coffin was empty?

I'm not even sure why Jack would want to open the coffin if he thought his father was in it.

I'll put the DVD on when the game is over...YAY VINCE Young!

sorry about that unusual burst of school pride, back to Christian...


ETA. In minute 36 of the DVD, Jack smashes the coffin that he finds. We then are taken back to the beach to see Boone provide water to Claire and Jack's return.

we don't know that Jack immediately left the cave. What if, in his campaign to win the people over to the cave idea he cleaned it up a bit? Removed some of the broken coffin and dolls he found before returning to the beach to tell everyone about the great place he found.

I'm not even sure why Jack would want to open the coffin if he thought his father was in it.

Because he needed to Prove John wrong. He needed to know Christian was in the coffin and dead. When he wasn't he ended up pretty angry.

Just as he didn't tell Desmond about Sarah walking, he didn't tell John about not finding his father's body but that probably is one of the more important events that led to him ultimately pushing the button.

Jack's dad has a wedding ring on when Jack goes to see him, when he's a kid. Shot of his dad's hand holding a glass with the ice cubes tinkeling.

we don't know that Jack immediately left the cave. What if, in his campaign to win the people over to the cave idea he cleaned it up a bit? Removed some of the broken coffin and dolls he found before returning to the beach to tell everyone about the great place he found. The dolls were still in the cave when he brought the Losties there.

Jack's dad has a wedding ring on when Jack goes to see him, when he's a kid. Shot of his dad's hand holding a glass with the ice cubes tinkeling.

The dolls were still in the cave when he brought the Losties there.

Well, dolls are a little better left around than pieces of a coffin, I suspect. It's again a matter of faith.

As to the ring, think it's a nice parallel to Jack. While he had it on when he ws a kid, he may have lost his and not bothered to replace it.

I think a woman who blames her son for her husband's 2 month bender is probably willing to put up with a lot from her husband, least of which is his wedding ring. Also, doesn't drinking make your hands swell? He could have lost it on a bender.

Well, dolls are a little better left around than pieces of a coffin, I suspect. It's again a matter of faith.

As to the ring, think it's a nice parallel to Jack. While he had it on when he ws a kid, he may have lost his and not bothered to replace it.

I think a woman who blames her son for her husband's 2 month bender is probably willing to put up with a lot from her husband, least of which is his wedding ring. Also, doesn't drinking make your hands swell? He could have lost it on a bender.That's possible but he didn't have it on for Jack's wedding and Margo didn't seem to be there either. You'd think she'd have made it to her sons wedding.

Sam - Christian certainly seems the type to have a little, uh, fun outside of the marriage. I've known many a guy who takes their wedding rings off when they are on the prowl. cmcdtv also has a good suggestion.

As to Margo's absence at the wedding - do we actually see the whole wedding? All I remember is Jack sitting by the pool with his private bottle. Just 'cause we don't see Margo at the wedding doesn't mean she wasn't there, off camera.

Except when? He goes back to camp with no wood and we see the caves when everyone comes back with him. No Coffin.

I just went through the screen caps and now I have to watch the DVD because, if Jack thought his father was supposed to be in the coffin, wouldn't he have acted surprised instead of mad when the coffin was empty?

I'm not even sure why Jack would want to open the coffin if he thought his father was in it.

The coffin fell approximately 30,000 feet. I would be more surprised that it retained structural integrety (read: didn't obliterate) upon landing, less it actually retained its contents.

But, yeah, my gut feeling tells me the good Dr. isn't dead. He's on that island.

I know this seems a little far-fetched, but there's something really wierd about Christian leaving his wallet behind in the hotel room, and that he turned up dead later.

Yeah, it's almost as if he NEEDED to forget his wallet so he'd have an excuse to bum free drinks off Sawyer.

i dunno if this was already said, but i was wondering that maybe jacks tattoos are in rerference to something. Maybe Jack was in the military, or something like that....

They'll definately serve a purpose. Actors don't go through that sort of makeup for every scene for character.

They'll definately serve a purpose. Actors don't go through that sort of makeup for every scene for character.

Those are Matthew's. The writers are said to be thinking of writing them in somehow.

They'll definately serve a purpose. Actors don't go through that sort of makeup for every scene for character.

Jack's tats are the actor's; he got them prior to Lost. In fact, one relates to his show Part of Five. However, they may work them into the show, but not necessarily (since they were not created by the show).

ETA: Fak! You're too fast!

Jack's tats are the actor's; he got them prior to Lost. In fact, one relates to his show Part of Five. However, they may work them into the show, but not necessarily (since they were not created by the show).

ETA: Fak! You're too fast!

Hey Hunbun, just running thru here to say Hi...
Im thinking of getting at Tat...something to do with LOST...
Do you think John Locke tattooed on my butt would be too much?

Jack's tats are the actor's; he got them prior to Lost. In fact, one relates to his show Part of Five. However, they may work them into the show, but not necessarily (since they were not created by the show).

ETA: Fak! You're too fast!

heh, would have been faster but I had to work around not being bothered working out how to spell tattoo :)

I don't believe that Jack's father is actually alive. We've not heard him speak, only walk around which implies that he is a vision. Does that make the vision in Jacks head or something that is projected for him to see. If it is all in his head, then there is some credence to his father's body not making the flight, but then why put a coffin with no body on the plane? If he is a projection, then you have to assume that the body is on the island somewhere or else how would you explain them having a perfect replica of his father?

Hey Hunbun, just running thru here to say Hi...
Im thinking of getting at Tat...something to do with LOST...
Do you think John Locke tattooed on my butt would be too much?

Heyah!

I can just picture the tatoo artist's face when you make that request!

I don't believe that Jack's father is actually alive. We've not heard him speak, only walk around which implies that he is a vision. Does that make the vision in Jacks head or something that is projected for him to see. If it is all in his head, then there is some credence to his father's body not making the flight, but then why put a coffin with no body on the plane? If he is a projection, then you have to assume that the body is on the island somewhere or else how would you explain them having a perfect replica of his father?

There is a perfect replica...in Jack's head, for a while I was toying with the idea that people were seeing things from their subconcious/past that were'nt physically there, that went out the window when Kate touched that black horse

Kate didn't see Jack's dad in the surf. Where cold he have gone so fast for Kate not to have seen him?

I think Jack even believes it was an hallucination because his father keeps disappearing. Locke is the one who throws the wrench in because he suggests maybe it isn't, when all logic points the other way.

The Walt viewing by Sayid and Shannon is still a mystery, and this seems to be pointing to people haveing their minds played with.

AHHHHHHHH.

I think that the body probably fell out of the coffin when it was, like, flying through the air during the plane crash. I think that the whole, 'Oceanic stole the body' idea was a cool one but, realistically, what could they have done with it. Also, if Jack or another member of the family wanted to say their final goodbyes and they discovered the body was gone, they could sue Oceanic. Good idea though. It would be cool if he was alive but I don't see that happening seeing as how he would have had to be embalmed and all.

I know this seems a little far-fetched, but there's something really wierd about Christian leaving his wallet behind in the hotel room, and that he turned up dead later.

I think the whole Christian leaving his wallet was to show the audience the discrepancy between the Hotal manager acccount of what happen that day, and the hotal maid account of what happen.

The hotal manager stated that hotal security escorted Dr. Christian Shepard,to his hotal room after a incident in a hotal bar.( It's implied that it happen after the fight in the bar, although it's never stated that was the incident he was refering to. It's also implied that security escorted him all the way in.

The hotal maid noted that he hasn't used the bed in the past three days. So there is a small discrepancy over rather or not he actually was escorted up to his room at all. If Dr. Shepard was escorted to his room, why wouldn't he retrieve his wallet if he was planning on leaving again? ( I do not think Dr. Christian Shepard made back to the room at all on the night of the incident.)

There is also a small mystery as to how Dr. Christian Shepard wound up dead in an alley in Queens Cross, considering he couldn't rent a car, nor take a cab, since he left his wallet at the hotal. Someone must have driven him there....or his body there.


I think that the body probably fell out of the coffin when it was, like, flying through the air during the plane crash.

...I would have thought the same thing ( actually, the coffin should have broken on impact) but if the body had fell out of the coffin, than the coffin wouldn't have been lock. the coffin was lock when Jack found it. (..or that coffin could have belong to someone else, like Sayid, who was claiming his friend body)



I think that the whole, 'Oceanic stole the body' idea was a cool one but, realistically, what could they have done with it. Also, if Jack or another member of the family wanted to say their final goodbyes and they discovered the body was gone, they could sue Oceanic.

I agree. The airline would not have been authorize to remove the body, especially without Jack knowledge. ..and since it would not have been reasonable for Jack to take a empty body back for a funeral..I believe there were two options, the Agent let Jack through without the proper documentation, or Jack decided on a 'another carrier', like the agent suggested

I think the whole Christian leaving his wallet was to show the audience the discrepancy between the Hotal manager acccount of what happen that day, and the hotal maid account of what happen.

The hotal manager stated that hotal security escorted Dr. Christian Shepard,to his hotal room after a incident in a hotal bar.( It's implied that it happen after the fight in the bar, although it's never stated that was the incident he was refering to. It's also implied that security escorted him all the way in.

The hotal maid noted that he hasn't used the bed in the past three days. So there is a small discrepancy over rather or not he actually was escorted up to his room at all. If Dr. Shepard was escorted to his room, why wouldn't he retrieve his wallet if he was planning on leaving again? ( I do not think Dr. Christian Shepard made back to the room at all on the night of the incident.)

There is also a small mystery as to how Dr. Christian Shepard wound up dead in an alley in Queens Cross, considering he couldn't rent a car, nor take a cab, since he left his wallet at the hotal. Someone must have driven him there....or his body there.

HOTEL MANAGER: The maid says he hasn't used the bed in the past three days.

(The Hotel Manager pulls the curtains open. Jack walks over to the chair and
picks up his father's jacket off of it.)

JACK: Did he rent a car from the concierge?

HOTEL MANAGER: No, sir.

(Jack walks over to the dresser where there are multiple prescription bottle
containers.)

HOTEL MANAGER: Quite honestly, Mr. Shephard, I don't think your father rented a
car at all.

JACK: Yeah? Why's that?

(Jack opens the dresser drawer and finds two bottles of hard liquor inside. He
shuts the drawer.)

HOTEL MANAGER: There was an incident a few nights ago here at the hotel bar. I
had to get security to escort your father to his room.

JACK: What's that have to do with renting a car?

(Jack turns around to look at the Hotel Manager.)

HOTEL MANAGER: I'm sorry, sir. I shouldn't have said --

JACK: (interrupts) Come on, what's that have to do with renting a car?

HOTEL MANAGER: Mr. Shephard, I don't think any rental agent in Sydney would
lease your father a car in his condition.

JACK: My father is the Chief of Surgery.

HOTEL MANAGER: Of course, sir. I apologize.

(Jack finds his father's wallet.)

JACK: He left his wallet.

(He opens it and finds money still inside the abandoned wallet. The bills
inside are large.)

JACK: Who leaves their wallet?

HOTEL MANAGER: (o.s.) Perhaps you should talk to the police, Mr. Shephard.

(Jack's starting to get worried.)
I don't believe there is any problem with the time. The incident was a few nights ago in the hotel bar. There is space for Christian to have been gone more than 3 days.

HOTEL MANAGER: The maid says he hasn't used the bed in the past three days.

(The Hotel Manager pulls the curtains open. Jack walks over to the chair and
picks up his father's jacket off of it.)

JACK: Did he rent a car from the concierge?

HOTEL MANAGER: No, sir.

(Jack walks over to the dresser where there are multiple prescription bottle
containers.)

HOTEL MANAGER: Quite honestly, Mr. Shephard, I don't think your father rented a
car at all.

JACK: Yeah? Why's that?

(Jack opens the dresser drawer and finds two bottles of hard liquor inside. He
shuts the drawer.)

HOTEL MANAGER: There was an incident a few nights ago here at the hotel bar. I
had to get security to escort your father to his room.

JACK: What's that have to do with renting a car?

(Jack turns around to look at the Hotel Manager.)

HOTEL MANAGER: I'm sorry, sir. I shouldn't have said --

JACK: (interrupts) Come on, what's that have to do with renting a car?

HOTEL MANAGER: Mr. Shephard, I don't think any rental agent in Sydney would
lease your father a car in his condition.

JACK: My father is the Chief of Surgery.

HOTEL MANAGER: Of course, sir. I apologize.

(Jack finds his father's wallet.)

JACK: He left his wallet.

(He opens it and finds money still inside the abandoned wallet. The bills
inside are large.)

JACK: Who leaves their wallet?

HOTEL MANAGER: (o.s.) Perhaps you should talk to the police, Mr. Shephard.

(Jack's starting to get worried.)
I don't believe there is any problem with the time. The incident was a few nights ago in the hotel bar. There is space for Christian to have been gone more than 3 days.


As a stoner who's left his wallet behind a few times I think it's safe to say the detail of Christian leaving his wallet behind while on a permanent bender (remember Sawyer saw him the night he died and told Jack he was "trying to set a record or something" - that's pretty drunk) may just be to reinforce the fact that Christian was an alcoholic to a fatal degree. Remember that we see the Hotel scene before we see the Drunken ER scene.

There are also many pill bottles around Christian's room. Some of them for a heart condition.
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=9297&highlight=taking

There are also many pill bottles around Christian's room. Some of them for a heart condition.
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=9297&highlight=taking
Also, one is marked "Placebo" which could mean that he is/was an experimental subject (unless it's an indirect clue, or just a joke).

Also, one is marked "Placebo" which could mean that he is/was an experimental subject (unless it's an indirect clue, or just a joke).Everyone knows what placebo means now, especially a Dr. I'm guessing that that was a joke for the fans.

Unless Christian was dispensing drugs and needed to know which ones had no kick to them.

The hotal manager said that no one would have rented a car to Jack's father, and without his wallet and money I doubt he would be able to take a cab, so how would he have gotten to Queen Crossing?.

Queen's Cross/King's Cross is probably walking distance form some very nice hotels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_Cross%2C_New_South_Wales