I know that this episode really didn't move any big story lines forward too much, but I liked that it was full of romance. Sun and Jin are the best couple on television! But more than that, I liked that Kate revealed that she really cares about Sawyer. She didn't say it outright, but when she said "I didn't say goodbye", she looked so incredibly sad. And Sun obviously could tell that Kate's feelings for Sawyer ran a lot deeper than anyone else knew. I'm hoping for a lot of Kate/Sawyer interaction this season. You know...once he gets back to their camp. I know that a lot of people think Kate is destined to be with Jack, but after watching that scene, I really hope she and Sawyer end up together.

I felt really sad for Kate when she said she didn't get to say goodbye. But then again, it was their own faults because they were too stubborn to say anything! :smile:

That was a great moment and great line. Anymore would have been going overboard, but this was just subtle enough to be great.

Yeah you could definetly tell since the way she reacted to the message bottle and how she wanted to read Sawyer's message.

Are we REALLY sure that that was why she was reading hte messages? I mean, she's really manipulative, and I htink Sawyer nad Kate belong together.

But I just don't think we can under-estimate her.

That was a great moment and great line. Anymore would have been going overboard, but this was just subtle enough to be great.

definitely! yay! kate and sawyer! i wonder how she'll react when she finds out sawyer is alive...:smile:

When Kate tour through the messages I immediately thought she was looking for information or to see if someone told info about her.
The way she said she didn't say goodbye could mean many things and depending on what you want to happen you will interpret it that way. These writers are SMART and CRUEL.
I agree that Sun and Jin's story is so heartbreaking and romantic. You just see their desire to be with each other, but were torn apart by circumstances in the world around them.

I think Kate was definitly looking for something from Sawyer but in regards to the preview:

They better not kill off Sawyer that would be a horrible mistake, maybe someone else but not Sawyer at this point at least.

I agree that Sun and Jin's story is so heartbreaking and romantic

Yeah, when Sun found her wedding ring, I felt so happy for her! A few moments before, she was saying that it was just a thing, but when she found it, it was clear that it was so much more to her.

I guess Locke's advice to stop looking came in quite handy! :)

Kate was lying! She wanted to retrieve her message from the bottle before someone read it.

Kate was lying! She wanted to retrieve her message from the bottle before someone read it.

She wouldn't write something incriminating about herself, she's not blonde. :biggrin:

i totally agree that kate and sawyer need to get together...however, i think ana lucia might like sawyer a little and that is why she is playing the "tough" gal with him. sometimes the way she looks at him seems like she is intrigued by him.

I think Kate had more motives than just looking for Sawyer's note. I also think
she was sorry they didn't say good bye and that she is worried about him,
however she's been running for too long to let down her guard.

Kate was lying! She wanted to retrieve her message from the bottle before someone read it.

Kate didn't WRITE a message....

I know that she's not always straight forward...and I admit that she often has ulterior motives...but I didn't see any hints in the writing that this wasn't about Sawyer.

The theme of the episode was about Sun and Jin and their seperation. That bottle symbolized the potential loss of her husband to Sun. The Kate/Sawyer thing was like a nice side-note to that because they'd started something in it's earliest infancy that was cut short.

If Kate wanted to read the notes to see if anyone said anything about her...she wouldn't have gone tearing through them in front of Sun. That's not in her MO...she's much more calculating than that when she's being deceptive. Plus Evi would have played the scene in a way that was less clear...so we weren't QUITE sure where she was coming from. She's good at that. But it wasn't cryptic at all. She seemed genuinely upset that Sawyer might be dead...and Sun picked up on it too. I loved that knowing look that came into Sun's eyes when she realized that Kate might really care about Sawyer much more than she'd let on. ;)

She wasn't thinking straight and she was upset about Sawyer..

Kate and Jack will definately end up together you can tell the way it's playing out. Just like when Jack was stuck in the caves, man Kate ran right after him. Remember she CHOSE to not say goodbye to sawyer, sure didn't seem that important then. I think she "felt bad" that she didn't say goodbye because he was her friend, but nah Sawyer's hit on her enough and she still follows Jack. I think that Kate and sawyer will be together this season for character development only. He does nothing for her character and she does nothing for his. The would not change or grow with eachother. Also I don't think Kate was looking for anything from Sawyer in that bottle, I think she was lying. Perhaps Kate did put a message in the bottle, but maybe it wasen't really for anyone. Maybe she was letting go of what she did, who knows, but I don't think that scene was as clear as some would like to think it was.

Kate and Jack will definately end up together you can tell the way it's playing out. Just like when Jack was stuck in the caves, man Kate ran right after him. Remember she CHOSE to not say goodbye to sawyer, sure didn't seem that important then. I think she "felt bad" that she didn't say goodbye because he was her friend, but nah Sawyer's hit on her enough and she still follows Jack. I think that Kate and sawyer will be together this season for character development only. He does nothing for her character and she does nothing for his. The would not change or grow with eachother. Also I don't think Kate was looking for anything from Sawyer in that bottle, I think she was lying. Perhaps Kate did put a message in the bottle, but maybe it wasen't really for anyone. Maybe she was letting go of what she did, who knows, but I don't think that scene was as clear as some would like to think it was.

She chose not to say goodybe to Sawyer because she didn't know how. Remember her comment about not being good at goodbyes? And if it wasn't important to her...why did she look around the entire time they were leaving on the hike...when they were at the raft? If it didn't matter to her...the writer's wouldn't have emphasized that she was looking for him...and then later shown him looking for her. I think she realized what not sayingn goodbye meant then. She even asked Charlie where he was...but then she had to go. It was like she wanted to...but she didn't know how...so as a result she kept walking, but also looking over her shoulder

As to what Kate and Sawyer could do for eachother...I'm not about to start a shipper war, but I think it's completely up to personal interpretation and there are many people who think they could both give a LOT to eachother's character! :biggrin: ...really help eachother out..

Who knows who Kate will end up with...it's all speculation at this point.

But Damon did say that Kate and Sawyer would be thinking about eachother even though they weren't together...and if this isn't the first sign of that...then I don't know what is...;)

No one is saying it means they're destined to be soulmates forever...but it was just a nice subtle moment where Kate showed that she cares about him a lot. Sun sure picked up on it ;)

Even Sun said it and Kate confirmed that she was upset about Sawyer. I think she was looking for a letter from him :(. I hope they are reunited soon. They belong together. ;)

I liked the scene with the bottle and it wouldn't matter what anyone wrote about Kate ,because the bottle is back on the island.

Kate did not write a message. My take on why she was looking through them was that she was looking to see if there was anything in there from anyone who was actually on the raft.

~~dear whoever finds this, our mast broke and the raft is being pulled apart by a strong current. We are going to die. blah blah blah~~

If the bottle was in the water, something has gone terribly wrong. Did they know and have time to react and leave any last minute thoughts? Or did something sudden come upon them ... no time ... just gone.

Nice point about looking for a message from those that were on the raft. Ohh and don't worry I'm not trying to start a shipper war, I was just posting my thoughts. Trust me a show does not get me upset ha ha, I take it for what it is ........a TV show.

Nice point about looking for a message from those that were on the raft. Ohh and don't worry I'm not trying to start a shipper war, I was just posting my thoughts. Trust me a show does not get me upset ha ha, I take it for what it is ........a TV show.

No...sorry...LOL...I didn't mean that YOU were getting upset or trying to start a shipper war! I meant that if I got too deeply into my thoughts regarding S/K vs J/K...it WOULD end up starting a shipper war (not just between us...tons of people would get involved..lol ;) ). It's just been my experience that that's what happens ;)

No...sorry...LOL...I didn't mean that YOU were getting upset or trying to start a shipper war! I meant that if I got too deeply into my thoughts regarding S/K vs J/K...it WOULD end up starting a shipper war (not just between us...tons of people would get involved..lol ;) ). It's just been my experience that that's what happens ;)

You can bunt all you want, but when Randy Johnson throws a fastball over the plate, I'm going to swing for the fences Big Papi style.

It amuses me to no end that people see what they want in reality instead of what is actually there. The rationalizations that people have started to post about why Kate went through the notes in the bottle (because, oh no, it couldn't have been about Sawyer!) are ridiculous. What reason would Kate have to go through the notes if it weren't to see if Sawyer sent a message to someone? Was she worried someone would spill her secret? Only Hurley and Jack know and the former isn't going to waste limited space on her and while the latter isn't going to turn her in.

It is becoming more and more obvious every episode that Kate and Sawyer are meant for each other storyline wise. The only person either one can rely on is the other (some gratitude Michael has, huh?) and the only person either one can fully open up to is each other. No one else takes Sawyer seriously and anytime Kate opens up to Jack he acts holier than thou and makes her ashamed of herself. Of course, she could always go for someone who is afraid of her like Hurley is.

This episode sealed it. The point of the scene with Kate and Sun at the end was to show Sun recognizing the feelings she has for Jin in Kate.

I have no problem acknowledging Kate was missing Sawyer here, but my views are different on the observations made about Jack and Kate.

It is becoming more and more obvious every episode that Kate and Sawyer are meant for each other storyline wise. The only person either one can rely on is the other (some gratitude Michael has, huh?) and the only person either one can fully open up to is each other. No one else takes Sawyer seriously and anytime Kate opens up to Jack he acts holier than thou and makes her ashamed of herself. Of course, she could always go for someone who is afraid of her like Hurley is.

That's personal opinion which is fine, but I'd disagree that Jack acts holier than thou toward her. He has been nothing but supportive to her & had rightful upset when she has LIED to and USED him... She tried to get him to kill the Marshal, for whatever intent, while concealing her status as his prisoner, and after Jack finds her mugshot-he tells her she deserves to start over...He goes even further to tell her "If you need me, you know where to find me." ..After she tries to trick him into digging up the Marshal & catches her w/the key, not only does he still give her the plane, but he gives her seeds in a gesture of good will & friendship after she tells him she killed a man. ..Kate drugs him, he makes a passing joke. She is outed to the group & does Jack turn away-no, he tries to carry the dynamite for her to protect her AND tells her "No one owes anyone anything." There is even room for interpretation he knows she partook in the poisoning which I believe he does. Then in EHH at diner everyone knows she's the criminal, & Jack is sitting by her, being kind & not giving a care what anyone thinks. I think he's more than proven his caring for her is unconditional, & I feel all of the above is very self-affirming & positive for Kate.

Absolutely, Jack has been anything but holier than thou with Kate. He's been supportive, he's been kind, he thinks more highly of her than she does herself.

That's personal opinion which is fine, but I'd disagree that Jack acts holier than thou toward her. He has been nothing but supportive to her & had rightful upset when she has LIED and USED him... She tried to get him to kill the Marshal, for whatever intent, while concealing her status as his prisoner, and after Jack finds her mugshot-he tells her she deserves to start over...He goes even further to tell her "If you need me, you know where to find me." ..After she tries to trick him into digging up the Marshal & catches her w/the key, not only does he still give her the plane, but he gives her seeds in a gesture of good will & friendship after she tells him she killed a man. ..Kate drugs him, he makes a passing joke. She is outed to the group & does Jack turn away-no, he tries to carry the dynamite for her to protect her AND tells her "No one owes anyone anything." Then in EHH at diner everyone knows she's the criminal, & Jack is sitting by her, being kind & not giving a care what anyone thinks. I think he's more than proven his caring for her is unconditional.

Exactly. He treats her likes a child by "forgiving" her "transgressions" like he is in some morally superior place to her. Jack obviously wants Kate, that's not the point.

I know! So, that's what drives me crazy. IThe promo killing Sawyer. I really liked Sawyer.

Exactly. He treats her likes a child by "forgiving" her "transgressions" like he is in some morally superior place to her. Jack obviously wants Kate, that's not the point.
Forgiveness has nothing to do with treating someone like a child. It's a normal component of the human condition because we ALL make mistakes and if we DON'T forgive is when we're acting holier than thou. Part of friendship and love is sticking by people even when you've been wronged which will happen in any relationship.

No he doesn't. He doesn't "forgive" her transgressions, except if they happen to have been towards himself, in which case it's his right to forgive her and there is nothing childish about it. Forgiveness is not childish and superior. He's trying to be supportive of her, to help her see for herself isn't just the sum of her mistakes in life.

If someone lies to and tries to manipulate you but you get over it, does that mean you are acting morally superior by not holding a grudge against them? It's a good thing, it's something people strive to be able to do and it's got nothing to do with feeling morally superior. Jack cares about Kate so naturally he's going to do that--that is what people who care about each other do for each other.

Forgiveness has nothing to do with treating someone like a child. It's a normal component of the human condition because we ALL make mistakes and if we DON'T forgive is when we're acting holier than thou. Part of friendship and love is sticking by people even when you've been wronged which will happen in any relationship.

Definition:

for·give ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fr-gv, fôr-)
v. for·gave, (-gv) for·giv·en, (-gvn) for·giv·ing, for·gives
v. tr.
To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
To renounce anger or resentment against.
To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).

To forgive someone means you must be offended by them or find some fault in who they are. Any person who finds fault in another places themself over that person.

Jack "forgives" Kate because he finds fault in the way she is or is offended by how she acts. Compare that to how Sawyer treats her (he expects her to be her, reacts to it accordingly, and deals with her in a way that shows he understands her) or how mature characters like Locke and Rose deal with the personalities of others (don't pass judgement on what is done and continue to treat them as if everything is normal).

Was she worried someone would spill her secret? Only Hurley and Jack know and the former isn't going to waste limited space on her and while the latter isn't going to turn her in.


Just wanted to correct you here....
Actually everyone knows about Kate now. Sawyer outed her in Born to Run, remember?

Kate, I think, has always been a bit ashamed of herself. She doesn't need Jack to make her feel that way. (You don't think she didn't feel ashamed when Sun said "you were only trying to help me" in BTR?) Do you think she likes the fact she's been a fugitive for who knows how long? I think she got in over her head.. doesn't know how else to live... and is stuck. Or feels like she is.

Jack hasn't been holier than thou. If he was he wouldn't be associating with Kate b/c of her fugitive past. But what do we see? Last episode, EHH - which takes place a day or so after everyone has found out about Kate - Jack and Kate goofing around by the fire. Close friends. He doesn't hold it against her (as some of the others did when they found out - which to ME is a "holier than thou" attitude) but only looks at what she's doing now. That fresh start he said everyone deserved...

But anyhoos... this thread is about sawyer and kate ;)....

I think that it's the popular consensus that Jack and Kate wind up together, but she's really much more compatible with Sawyer.

And I haven't seen discussed the scene between Sawyer and Kate that is the most psychologically important. Kate asked Sawyer after he "outed" her why he wanted so badly to go on the raft, and he gave her this look and said, "Because there's nothing here worth staying for."

After flirting with her all season, Sawyer was rejecting her. Kate was hurt badly enough by that rejection to avoid Sawyer and not say goodbye to him before the raft launching.

If you look at the real world psychology of the situation now, Kate knows she can seduce Jack at any time and he will be accepting and just roll over. And Kate, knowing that she's a criminal, finds Jack weak because he accepts her, when she in fact has not forgiven herself for her past.

Sawyer recognizes Kate for who she really is, and having a checkered past himself (let's remember their powerful scene of them playing the "I never" drinking game), Sawyer is the one person fully capable of understanding Kate. Kate needs to overcome the challenge of Sawyer's rejection, and only through his forgiveness will she begin to find her own redemption.

I think we saw those feelings beginning to bubble to the surface in the bottle scene.

Actually quite the opposite. She was totally non-plussed when Jack, whom she'd just been doing what I'm quite sure she felt was such a good job flirting with (In HOTRS) didn't fall for her "Are you checking me out?". Jack is the one who she knows is the hard nut to crack, she's never been able to play him. All her usual tricks just fell flat when she tried them on him. And it wasn't because he wasn't interested in her. And yet, despite that, he wasn't rolling over for her.

If he had fallen for that stuff she would have totally lost respect for him--because then he'd be just like all the other weak guys she'd played. But he didn't. Not only did he call her on her stuff but then for some reason he didn't betray her back for it.

definitely! yay! kate and sawyer! i wonder how she'll react when she finds out sawyer is alive...:smile:

My quick impression of Kate/Sawter reunion...


SAWYER: (falls to the ground exhausted) Nice to be home.

KATE: (spots Sawyer from afar and pushes Jack ans Sayid aside...takes off running for Sawyer) Oh my .... Are you ok? I am so glad you are alive! What happened out there? Who the hell is that (looking at Ana)?? You didnt trick her into making out with you did you? Why is she looking at me like that?

j/k :lol:

couldnt help it :hypocrit:

I felt really sad for Kate when she said she didn't get to say goodbye. But then again, it was their own faults because they were too stubborn to say anything! :smile:

kate was not stubborn, they left quick and hurried remember? the others were ominously lurking...didnt they leave before she went into the jungle with jack.

It's odd how people see the same thing (we are watching the same show, are we not?) sooo differently.

From what I've seen, the only thing I've seen Kate do which would demonstrate any peculiar feeling for Jack was when she ran away from Sawyer to help dig Jack out of the cave in.

Otherwise, she behaves in a fashion which seems very close to what I believe I would do. She establishes and maintains a close relationship with the defacto leader. It often pays to be teacher's pet. If the people in charge are inclined to dole out favors, it's good if you can jockey a place at the front of the line.

Plus, when she is with Jack, there is always a reason for her to be there. Either she needs something or something is going on and she wants to in on anything happening.

There have been numerous occasions when she was just there with Sawyer. No reason at all. That would lead me to believe that when she is just being herself - just hanging out - just wanting to be comfortable - she chooses to keep company with Sawyer.

I'd say that speaks volumes about how she feels about the two men.

I think that it's the popular consensus that Jack and Kate wind up together, but she's really much more compatible with Sawyer.

And I haven't seen discussed the scene between Sawyer and Kate that is the most psychologically important. Kate asked Sawyer after he "outed" her why he wanted so badly to go on the raft, and he gave her this look and said, "Because there's nothing here worth staying for."

After flirting with her all season, Sawyer was rejecting her. Kate was hurt badly enough by that rejection to avoid Sawyer and not say goodbye to him before the raft launching.

If you look at the real world psychology of the situation now, Kate knows she can seduce Jack at any time and he will be accepting and just roll over. And Kate, knowing that she's a criminal, finds Jack weak because he accepts her, when she in fact has not forgiven herself for her past.

Sawyer recognizes Kate for who she really is, and having a checkered past himself (let's remember their powerful scene playing the "I never" drinking game), Sawyer is the one person fully capable of understanding Kate. Kate needs to overcome the challenge of Sawyer's rejection, and only through his forgiveness will she begin to find her own redemption.

I think we saw those feelings beginning to bubble to the surface in the bottle scene.

I don't agree with that psychological assessment. Kate was rejecting Sawyer in that scene imo. He was looking for her to confirm that there was something to stay for & instead she asked why he wanted the raft spot so bad.

Kate being able to seduce Jack at any time has not been the way their dynamic has been set up. Matter of fact it was made clear when she attempted to flirt with him in HOTRS but she was disappointed he wasn't checking her out. Jack expects more out of Kate than her sexuality & it's exactly because she can not use her feminine wiles on him that I think draws her to him.The shower scene was meant to juxtapose to the "checking out" because this time that is exactly what he was doing to demonstrate he is attracted to her which some put into question.

He hasn't been "weak" toward her & that contradicts the claim he's acted holier than thou. He has not been blind to her tendencies. He knew when she approached him that her intent to dig up the Marshal was not just the guns. He caught her with the key, called her on being involved in the poisoning.

If anything the forgiveness he offers is what she needs imo. Jack doesn't give her permission to wallow in self pity but at the same time offers positive support and encouragement she needs to reach her full potential. She has been miserable assuming the outsider role and the only way she'll be "free" imo is if she confronts herself and takes responsibility for what she can change.

Plus, when she is with Jack, there is always a reason for her to be there. Either she needs something or something is going on and she wants to in on anything happening.

There was no reason for her to be sitting with him laughing and eating dinner. Playfully bantering back and forth. Or standing there making conversation after a shower when she could have high tailed it out of there.

Definition:


To forgive someone means you must be offended by them or find some fault in who they are. Any person who finds fault in another places themself over that person.

Jack "forgives" Kate because he finds fault in the way she is or is offended by how she acts. Compare that to how Sawyer treats her (he expects her to be her, reacts to it accordingly, and deals with her in a way that shows he understands her) or how mature characters like Locke and Rose deal with the personalities of others (don't pass judgement on what is done and continue to treat them as if everything is normal).

Well that's an interesting way of looking at it. So your friend/family member/boyfriend/girlfriend/Significant Other lies to you--you find out about it. You forgive them for that.

That's a bad thing? Because that is what you are saying. Because Kate outright lied and tried to manipulate Jack(and she tried to make Sawyer look bad to so I'd remind) and he was upset about it. Totally natural reaction in that situation. Then he went back to treating her as usual and even tried to do something special FOR HER. This is a bad thing? This is a holier than thou thing?

What you described is actually exactly what Jack does with Kate. He treats like usual. He talks to her, he tells her stuff, he gets her opinion, he asks for her help. He never makes a thing about "I forgive you", he just goes back to treating her as usual and his "as usual" with her is way better than she's used to being treated from what I can tell.

Have to disagree with ya sheba ;)

That's like saying that if Kate is hanging out with Jack (say like in the end scene in EHH) it's just b/c she's trying to be teacher's pet. But when b/c Sawyer isn't the leader - it must be b/c Kate likes him that she hangs around him. It's a convienent way to label all J/K interactions so that they are nothing but "business" almost....

Just wanted to correct you here....
Actually everyone knows about Kate now. Sawyer outed her in Born to Run, remember?

Ah, yes, you're dead on. Thank you for finding an error in my statements.

Jack is the one who she knows is the hard nut to crack, she's never been able to play him.

It's when people make statements like the above one that I have to ask, "Are you even watching the same show I am?"

In Whatever the Case May Be, Sawyer had to inform Jack that Kate wasn't as sweet and innocent as she appeared to be and Jack expressed clear disappointment and regret when he realized what Sawyer said was true when Kate tried to hide the key from him. Disappointment and regret which seemingly lurked until the now infamous shower scene.

Have to disagree with ya sheba ;)

That's like saying that if Kate is hanging out with Jack (say like in the end scene in EHH) it's just b/c she's trying to be teacher's pet. But when b/c Sawyer isn't the leader - it must be b/c Kate likes him that she hangs around him. It's a convienent way to label all J/K interactions so that they are nothing but "business" almost....

Not almost ... exactly. I'm not saying there is nothing attractive about Jack. But I just can't imagine a person with Kate's background ever seeing anyone as *establishment* as Jack as anything other than a means to an end.

Whereas with a man like Sawyer, they can play on a more even field.

Well that's an interesting way of looking at it. So your friend/family member/boyfriend/girlfriend/Significant Other lies to you--you find out about it. You forgive them for that.

That's a bad thing? Because that is what you are saying.


Ah, isn't that exactly the problem with many relationships? We see it done in an over-the-top style in sticoms all the time. One person lies, the other person finds out and withholds forgiveness, the liar is made to feel guilty. The withholder is thus in a position of power because they've decided that the liar must feel guilty until they are forgiven.

A truly smart/mature person would look at the liar and say "Why is it within the makeup of this person to lie/lie about this certain thing?" They would then decide whether such a person is someone they want to spend time with.

Not almost ... exactly. I'm not saying there is nothing attractive about Jack. But I just can't imagine a person with Kate's background ever seeing anyone as *establishment* as Jack as anything other than a means to an end.

Whereas with a man like Sawyer, they can play on a more even field.

IMHO, that's just a misunderstanding of Kate's character... There's more to Kate than being a fugitive. Damon even said that Jack will represent more of what Kate actually wants - a real "adult love" or whatever his exact words were. The real Kate, that's down in there somewhere doesn't want to run anymore. Doesn't want to be the fugitive anymore.

but that's my take. lol I respect the fact that we could completely disagree on that ;)

Not almost ... exactly. I'm not saying there is nothing attractive about Jack. But I just can't imagine a person with Kate's background ever seeing anyone as *establishment* as Jack as anything other than a means to an end.

Whereas with a man like Sawyer, they can play on a more even field.
A means to an end for what though... They get back to the mainland Kate is screwed no matter what... Jack and Kate have shared emotional moments they've bonded from beyond him serving any agenda for her.

In Whatever the Case May Be, Sawyer had to inform Jack that Kate wasn't as sweet and innocent as she appeared to be and Jack expressed clear disappointment and regret when he realized what Sawyer said was true when Kate tried to hide the key from him. Disappointment and regret which seemingly lurked until the now infamous shower scene.
Sawyer wasn't telling Jack anything new. He didn't get so upset over the case because he wasn't aware of her having certain tendencies. He was peeved at Sawyer for twisting the knife that Kate had been dishonest about why she wanted the case.

I see no connection to WTCMB and the shower scene.

Ah, yes, you're dead on. Thank you for finding an error in my statements.



It's when people make statements like the above one that I have to ask, "Are you even watching the same show I am?"

In Whatever the Case May Be, Sawyer had to inform Jack that Kate wasn't as sweet and innocent as she appeared to be and Jack expressed clear disappointment and regret when he realized what Sawyer said was true when Kate tried to hide the key from him. Disappointment and regret which seemingly lurked until the now infamous shower scene.


No he didn't need Sawyer to inform of that. He already KNEW. He's known about her criminality since Tabula Rasa. Actually Jack already had the key when Sawyer told him that. Kate had already twice tried to mislead and lie to him. She's already tried to hide the key from him when that happened. Jack didn't go to Sawyer to get the case back until after they'd dug up the key, that is why Kate was surprised he was still going to keep to the plan, she figured he'd just take the case on his own and open it and she was out of luck.

That was the whole thing--Sawyer thought he was telling Jack something Jack didn't know but he wasn't. But Jack already knew it and he was continuing to do it anyway, with eyes wide open. But yeah he was disappointed that even though he was doing it she still continued to try and mislead him--why shouldn't he be. He'd have helped her without the tricks.

IMHO, that's just a misunderstanding of Kate's character... There's more to Kate than being a fugitive. Damon even said that Jack will represent more of what Kate actually wants - a real "adult love" or whatever his exact words were. The real Kate, that's down in there somewhere doesn't want to run anymore. Doesn't want to be the fugitive anymore.

but that's my take. lol I respect the fact that we could completely disagree on that ;)

Isn't that the point though? Sawyer and Kate both want to stop running from their past and be "real adults" (whatever that means anyway).

Besides, your signature has an important quote:

"They're like two brothers who were separated at birth." ~JH (on Jack and Sawyer)

And let's not forget:

"You're actually comparing yourself to Jack?" -Kate
"The difference between us ain't that big, sweetheart." -Sawyer

A means to an end for what. They get back to the mainland Kate is screwed no matter what. Jack and Kate have shared emotional moments they've bonded from beyond him serving any agenda for her.


If they get back to civilization, she has no need for him. She's smart enough to realize that on craphole island, no matter how much she may want Sawyer, she needs Jack. Not only is he the defacto leader, he is the only doctor and he has the hots for her.

It wouldn't be very clever to spurn the only doctor in town. She may need one.

Isn't that the point though? Sawyer and Kate both want to stop running from their past and be "real adults" (whatever that means anyway).

Besides, your signature has an important quote:

"They're like two brothers who were separated at birth." ~JH (on Jack and Sawyer)

And let's not forget:

"You're actually comparing yourself to Jack?" -Kate
"The difference between us ain't that big, sweetheart." -Sawyer
I'm not quite sure what these quotes have to do with the pnt in question, but Sawyer did run (for now), he left on the raft.


If they get back to civilization, she has no need for him. She's smart enough to realize that on craphole island, no matter how much she may want Sawyer, she needs Jack. Not only is he the defacto leader, he is the only doctor and he has the hots for her.

so the only reason Kate has been hanging around Jack is because she needs a doctor & a leader? I don't see how that can hold true with the developments they've had in their relationship. Kate didn't care about having a leader when she chose to stay back at the beach instead of going to the caves with him.

I read it the opposite. He WAS checking her out but denied it. I think he IS affected by her playing him, but resisting it because although he is attracted to her as a woman he DOES feel "holier than thou" as a person... and all of his forgiveness for her is being driven by the chemistry of the attraction. He is slowly coming to accept and like her as a person IN SPITE of her past, but he only gave her a chance because her games are working. Kate was in total control in the shower scene, and Jack was the one who was nonplussed.

and I still think everything I said about Sawyer applies.

Jack didn't seem non-plussed in the shower scene just surprised, as was Kate. No one was in control of the shower scene.

And I don't think Jack was checking her out in HOTRS--he really was very focused on the caves. That wasn't a "checking her out" look, that was actually part of the point of the shower scene--"you'd know it if I was checking you out". The writers did a clever thing where when they heard the sound, Jack actually says to Sayid "I'll go check it out"--it was a nice natural little way of referring back to it. He WAS checking her out there and she knew it.

With the HOTRS scene--he was just sort of blankly staring while thinking about the caves. However I'm sure he wished he was checking her out and he'd probably checked her out at other times. :) But he was clearly focused on the caves. From the time their conversation in the caves onward his mind was clearly focused on those caves as a shelter.

No he didn't need Sawyer to inform of that. He already KNEW. He's known about her criminality since Tabula Rasa. Actually Jack already had the key when Sawyer told him that. Kate had already twice tried to mislead and lie to him. She's already tried to hide the key from him when that happened. Jack didn't go to Sawyer to get the case back until after they'd dug up the key, that is why Kate was surprised he was still going to keep to the plan, she figured he'd just take the case on his own and open it and she was out of luck.

That was the whole thing--Sawyer thought he was telling Jack something Jack didn't know but he wasn't. But Jack already knew it and he was continuing to do it anyway, with eyes wide open. But yeah he was disappointed that even though he was doing it she still continued to try and mislead him--why shouldn't he be. He'd have helped her without the tricks.

Wrong, just wrong. There's no other way to put it. There is a far cry between knowing someone is something and seeing them be that something. I mean, someone can tell you they are a professional boxer, but do you really see that side of them until you bring yourself to watch one of their matches?

Jack thought Kate was sweet and treated him nicely because she hide behind that facade. Whatever the Case May Be was the episode in which Jack's perception of Kate changed. Sawyer knew it was a facade because he is an expert at reading people quickly. He needs to be able to for his profession (if one can be so kind to call conning that).

She's smart enough to realize that on craphole island, no matter how much she may want Sawyer, she needs Jack. Not only is he the defacto leader, he is the only doctor and he has the hots for her.

Well there you have it. In matters of the heart, one cannot choose based upon what is most politically and/or pragmatically rationale.

I get it. Jack is the hero. Kate is the heroin. I just don't buy it.

Night.

I thought Kate wanted to read Sawyer's message (though he didn't write one). But after reading some posts here ... maybe she did want to take hers back or see if anyone else wrote about the "fugitive" on the island ... hard to tell. But I'm hoping it was that she cares for Sawyer. I have my money on those two and not Kate and Jack.

Wrong, just wrong. There's no other way to put it. There is a far cry between knowing someone is something and seeing them be that something. I mean, someone can tell you they are a professional boxer, but do you really see that side of them until you bring yourself to watch one of their matches?

Jack thought Kate was sweet and treated him nicely because she hide behind that facade. Whatever the Case May Be was the episode in which Jack's perception of Kate changed. Sawyer knew it was a facade because he is an expert at reading people quickly. He needs to be able to for his profession (if one can be so kind to call conning that).


No I'm not wrong. Kate had already lied to and misled Jack twice by the time Sawyer said that to him and on both those occassions Jack had already caught her and called her on them. In fact as soon as Kate approached Jack about the case he called her on what she was really trying to do but he knew it must have been important to her and so he put some of his own "requirements" on his help, which she agreed to. Then she tried to palm key, which he actually quite cleverly caught--she totally did not expect Jack to catch her out on that key. Rather than listening to her excuse he just said something like "Don't" and walked away, to get the case from Sawyer and still stick with his and Kate's deal. Sawyer wasn't telling Jack anything he didn't know.

I also do not believe that Kate's niceness is a facade. I believe she truly is a nice person just someone whose life has caused her to have live on the edge, always in fight or flight(usually flight). People are complicated, just because she's lived a criminal life doesn't mean she can't also be genuinely nice and kind. She's shown time and again she is. But certain things are her weak spots and bring on her urge to run. And Jack has a pretty good pick up on what those spots are.

Well there you have it. In matters of the heart, one cannot choose based upon what is most politically and/or pragmatically rationale.

I get it. Jack is the hero. Kate is the heroin. I just don't buy it.

Night.

I'm certain you meant heroine but it's oversimplifying their relationship to reduce them to the token hero couple. There's a lot more complexity to them than that imo.



Jack thought Kate was sweet and treated him nicely because she hide behind that facade. Whatever the Case May Be was the episode in which Jack's perception of Kate changed. Sawyer knew it was a facade because he is an expert at reading people quickly. He needs to be able to for his profession (if one can be so kind to call conning that).

How can a person have illusions about someone when a Marshal is telling him "she's dangerous she's dangerous", & he finds her mugshot? I think it's pretty clear cut from the beginning Jack hasn't been going into things w/blinders on. It perplexes me how on one hand he's considered holier than thou because he believes himself to be on a higher plane of morality-implying he knows he's better than her because she's a criminal, and then on the other hand he's been referred to as naive & played in so many words because he's offered her forgiveness. Can't have both.

There's an important juxtaposition going on between Christian and Kate that I think often gets overlooked. Jack was burned by lies his father told, & he's been far more hurt when he feels like he doesn't know the truth ,than anything Kate has revealed she's done....Their relationship hasn't moved forward in part, because of fears he would be hurt in the same way. Christian was self serving, however, through living on the island, gaining "family", & being forced to face herself, Kate is learning to put others ahead of herself (slowly by going back for ppl when she's terrified of monsters, & putting her life on the line for ppl). This is how her character has to and will grow in order to make her way along the hero's journey which I believe BOTH Kate and Sawyer are on the road to as much as Jack... Point being Kate is not Christian because he was too late when he realized how self serving he was being. So while Kate's past may be an obstacle for Jack now, I don't believe it will be in the future.

Kate has shown compassion and caring so I think she's more than just a one dimensional "bad" girl. She has as much a sweet side as she does the facade I believe she puts up in trying to be tough. She's more vulnerable than she believes herself to be and that's shown by her drawing upon Jack's strength and coutning to 5 when she's scared. He's helped her tap into her courage because he knows she is capable and has offered her forgiveness because he believes she is worth more than her mistakes. Jack's no saint either as you pntd out ;) He has his own issues to work out and needs to see grey areas to let go of some of his pain. Kate can help with that.

I thought Kate wanted to read Sawyer's message (though he didn't write one). But after reading some posts here ... maybe she did want to take hers back or see if anyone else wrote about the "fugitive" on the island ... hard to tell. But I'm hoping it was that she cares for Sawyer. I have my money on those two and not Kate and Jack.

I think at this point it could go either way... either Kate had written something she didn't want other ppl to see (which means, actually, that Sawyer DID see it, lol since he was going through the letters on the raft) or she wanted something of Sawyer's. I'm not sure.

Kate's initial rxn to Sun's news about the bottle wasn't concern about the rafters ... it was where is the bottle now? And she goes with Sun to dig it up.

Just reminded me of when she got Jack to dig up the Marshal's body when she wanted the key.....

why would kate write something to incriminate her self she too smart for that as for sawyer dying hes too beautiful to ever leave the show lol

I think at this point it could go either way... either Kate had written something she didn't want other ppl to see (which means, actually, that Sawyer DID see it, lol since he was going through the letters on the raft) or she wanted something of Sawyer's. I'm not sure.

Kate's initial rxn to Sun's news about the bottle wasn't concern about the rafters ... it was where is the bottle now? And she goes with Sun to dig it up.

Just reminded me of when she got Jack to dig up the Marshal's body when she wanted the key.....

I still don't see any logic in that, I'm sorry....

We never saw Kate write a message...and there has been no hint of it...so unless the writer's are planning to follow up on it...it would make no sense to just put it in and assume we'd get that from it, with no previous hint. Not to mention the fact that she didn't find anything. And if she'd written it...it WOULD be there.

Kate DID look very concerned about the rafters when Sun mentioned it...but how is someone who is emotionally closed off like Kate supposed to deal with that kind of thing? Her natural reaction was to think in physical terms...let's get the bottle, let's see what's inside it...let's deal with something tangible that I can hold onto because I don't know HOW to deal with the possibility of something less definable...more emotionally confusing, right now.

Kate DID look very concerned about the rafters when Sun mentioned it...but how is someone who is emotionally closed off like Kate supposed to deal with that kind of thing? Her natural reaction was to think in physical terms...let's get the bottle, let's see what's inside it...let's deal with something tangible that I can hold onto because I don't know HOW to deal with the possibility of something less definable...more emotionally confusing, right now.
If there was nothing to her feelings for Sawyer, we wouldn't have been given those scenes in Exodus, where they're both looking for each other. And that look on her face tonight - she was tearing up.

The writers have SAID they'll be thinking about each other, they CREATED the triangle, they'll continue to PLAY UP the triangle. Face it - there's going to be concern on Kate's part for Sawyer, if we explained away every time it looked like Kate might care for Sawyer, then there would BE no triangle, and if you believe that, you're living in de Nile. ;)

I think that Ana Lucia might want Sawyer a little, but he's going to end up with Kate in my opinion. The hate-hate relationship makes it all the more better if they did because you can tell that it is the kind of schoolyard pull-hair and hit relationship that means they like each other.

I think that Ana Lucia might want Sawyer a little, but he's going to end up with Kate in my opinion. The hate-hate relationship makes it all the more better if they did because you can tell that it is the kind of schoolyard pull-hair and hit relationship that means they like each other.

In the immortal words of Eddie Izzard, "Splashy, splashy."

Shippers war - at it´s best :)

I think we can agree on one thing though, depending on what one wishes for, one sees things in different ways......;)

However, there are some "hard" facts, like what TRoss stated;
The writers have SAID they'll be thinking about each other, they CREATED the triangle
and also; The creatives have also said that Ana-Lucia will turn the triangle into a quadrant.

There IS going to happen things between Kate/Sayer/Ana/Jack, no matter what we want and sees, and how we interpret situations. Just forget about shipping for a while and think about how "ordinary" watchers of Lost sees things, and you have the most probably way the creatives intended the scene to be.......... :rolleyes:

Kate was lying! She wanted to retrieve her message from the bottle before someone read it.


That was also my impression. She wanted to get her message back.

She didn't write a message, I think. I believe she wanted to read Sawyer's message!

That was also my impression. She wanted to get her message back.

As far as we know, Kate never wrote a message.
And why should she? She has none to write to, if they get of the island she will be arrested so why announce where she is???
Kate isn´t stupid, she is used to running and being careful...

As far as we know, Kate never wrote a message.
And why should she? She has none to write to, if they get of the island she will be arrested so why announce where she is???
Kate isn´t stupid, she is used to running and being careful...

not that I'm necessarily agreeing with the fact she wrote to someone, but she did imply in Moth she may have someone waiting back inland for her because she said to Sawyer "You have no one to go back for. No body you miss and no one misses you." Someone cared enough to send her that letter & knew how to notify her of Dianne-was it Tom? Dunno. He didn't even know why she was hiding out in the back of his car.

Anyhoo, speaking for myself I'm not contesting Kate cares for Sawyer. At the very least she looked worried when Sun told her about the bottle. As far as looking for the message some ppl have brought up good pnts that make me consider the above possibilities as reasons for that. It doesn't negate though she was concerned for Sawyer in some capacity imo.

Personally I know they're setting up the triangle & have no illusions about what can or might happen. In order for a triangle or a trapezoid to work, all sides need to be primed. I was primarily responding to points raised about Jack and Kate when they were juxtaposed with KS because I have a different perspective on JK's relationship.

I still don't see any logic in that, I'm sorry....

We never saw Kate write a message...and there has been no hint of it...so unless the writer's are planning to follow up on it...it would make no sense to just put it in and assume we'd get that from it, with no previous hint. Not to mention the fact that she didn't find anything. And if she'd written it...it WOULD be there.

Kate DID look very concerned about the rafters when Sun mentioned it...but how is someone who is emotionally closed off like Kate supposed to deal with that kind of thing? Her natural reaction was to think in physical terms...let's get the bottle, let's see what's inside it...let's deal with something tangible that I can hold onto because I don't know HOW to deal with the possibility of something less definable...more emotionally confusing, right now.

I'm not saying she wasn't concerned for the rafters at all - she was. But her initial rxn was to ask Sun "where is the bottle?" I was just pointing that out. All the little things, the writers throw in ;) But ya, I agree that Kate was concerned about Sawyer.

I think the main point is, do we really think Kate is THAT self absorbed to think that of all the things the Lostaways could be writing about (like, mum i love you, im ok, etc) is HER and her being on the run. Im sure it is in peoples minds but i would think that almost all of them would be MORE concerned with surviving, and now that the opportunity presented itself, letting loved ones know they are actually alive and to send help. I dont think Kate is that self-absorbed, but you know, could be wrong.

I don't think that kate even wrote something. She's likes to keep her feelings and such to herself. I don't like Kate and Sawyer together as much as I like ana lucia and Sawyer together. The tension between the two could make a relationship more interesting.

I don't think Kate is that self absorbed either and I really think she didn't write anything. She was looking for Sawyer's note because she realised that she misses him and didn't even say goodbye. Sun knew straightaway that she was talking about Sawyer when she said "I didn't say goodbye".

Okay let me just tell you how I view Sawyer, and this has nothing to do with Kate whatever. Sawyer is HOT right like totally. However, he's just such a jerk, and even though I LOVE his character, I pity the person that ends up with him for longer than ten min. He needs someone like ana so she can put him in his place ha ha.

I don't think he's a jerk anymore, he's shown that he cares about people and if he ends up with Kate I think we'll see his softer side (like we did before).

i also loved that scene, and i completely agree that sun/jin are amazing. best couple on televison.


but i definitely agree with others, kate was being manipulative and lying.

I don't know about anyone else... but this is what I think. We know that Sawyer didn't write anything. He says as much on the raft to Walt ("The only letter I ever wrote was to the man I'm going to kill."). Classic Sawyer. Kate at least fronts the idea that she knows Sawyer well. It seems a bit off that Kate would actually think that Sawyer wrote anything and put it in the bottle. Besides that... the bottle contained messages that were supposed to be for those in the real world and not stuck on the island.

What the reason was, I have no idea. She probably DOES feel bad for not having said goodbye to Sawyer, but in all honesty... I think that has nothing to do with why she was tearing through those messages. There was another reason.

Kate was lying! She wanted to retrieve her message from the bottle before someone read it.

You may be right. She seemed to think about her answer to Sun just a little bit. I think there was an element of truth in her sadness about Sawyer ... but I am not sure her answer was completely honest. I think there were other motivations for her actions.

That being said, I would like Sawyer to be with someone ... any one.

Kate is very troubled herself ... but if she gives Sawyer understanding then yippee. I think Ana-Lucia would make him laugh and keep him in line. Claire could bring him to a place of love and nurturing. As long as that boy gets a little love soon, then I don't care who it is. :biggrin:

Just as long as Sawyer stays away from Jack, Sayid and Michael ... those fellows are not his friends in any form. They have done nothing but abuse him.

Kate was lying! She wanted to retrieve her message from the bottle before someone read it.

Totally agree. And acting like she "lost" Sawyer much like Sun lost Jin... just a fake bond she was trying to create with Sun. Kate is a snake, IMO.

She didn't write a message, I think. I believe she wanted to read Sawyer's message!


I really think that is what she wanted to do. I also thought that maybe she thinks Sawyer wrote something about her.

I myself am open to the fact that there will be at least a 'short term' Kate/Sawyer ship so I will say that Kate does care about Sawyer. That's not much of a problem with me.

But things just do not make sense.

WE know that Sawyer didn't write a note. Kate doesn't. I don't think Kate wrote one because we didn't seet it but Charlie was going around with the bottle before the Hatchlings left because he made the offer to Locke and Hurley. We also didn't see Jack write one so that one is kind of open ended. We don't know if Kate wrote anything or not.

But if she did..why would she want to retrieve her own note? Did she confess all? Say "Give this my friend Beth' and then have some kind of code written where all the money is buried? Did she tell everyone she is sorry..or perhaps she did write one and gave her name as JoAnna or Joan Hart or whatever her alias was. Did she tell the Australian farmer all is forgiven or Tommy's wife and kid she's sorry??????????

Why would she want to retrieve Sawyer's note if she thought he had written one? Did she think he would confess his undying love for her to anyone 'out there' who might get it? Did she think he would give her a 'good by' note? The notes were not intended for people on the island..they were intended for people in the 'real' world.

Heck..for all we know she might have been looking for Jack's note to see who he was writing to...

Her 'We didn't say good by' just doesn't make sense to me. She might really care about Sawyer..that's not the issue. It just doesn't add up.

I think she was up to something else personally.

I don't know about anyone else... but this is what I think. We know that Sawyer didn't write anything. He says as much on the raft to Walt ("The only letter I ever wrote was to the man I'm going to kill."). Classic Sawyer. Kate at least fronts the idea that she knows Sawyer well. It seems a bit off that Kate would actually think that Sawyer wrote anything and put it in the bottle. Besides that... the bottle contained messages that were supposed to be for those in the real world and not stuck on the island.

What the reason was, I have no idea. She probably DOES feel bad for not having said goodbye to Sawyer, but in all honesty... I think that has nothing to do with why she was tearing through those messages. There was another reason.


Seriously, you've never done anything that seemed illlogical when you were upset? I know that Kate isn't always the most forward person, but not everything she does has an ulterior motive. If there WERE an ulterior motive I think it would have been highlighted for us...there would have been some facial expression or some hint that she was up to something. It wasn't there. Whenever Locke does something shady, or someone else does...there is a moment where the camera acknowleges that with the way they focus on his face. I think people are reading too much into this. Kate acknowledging that she really cares about Sawyer fit right into the epiosde theme! Not everything on this show has to have a 'mysterious' element to it. Some of the character moments are straightforward and heartfelt.

I know that logically Sawyer would not have written a note...Kate knows that somewhere too...BUT at that moment she wasn't thinking logically.

Also there is a chance that if the rafters were in trouble they might have written a note themselves and put it in the bottle for someone to find later...to at least explain to their loved ones what happened to them.

Kate was just looking for a scrap of something to take the place of the goobye she never got.

I myself am open to the fact that there will be at least a 'short term' Kate/Sawyer ship so I will say that Kate does care about Sawyer. That's not much of a problem with me.

But things just do not make sense.

But if she did..why would she want to retrieve her own note? Did she confess all? Say "Give this my friend Beth' and then have some kind of code written where all the money is buried? Did she tell everyone she is sorry..or perhaps she did write one and gave her name as JoAnna or Joan Hart or whatever her alias was. Did she tell the Australian farmer all is forgiven or Tommy's wife and kid she's sorry??????????

Why would she want to retrieve Sawyer's note if she thought he had written one? Did she think he would confess his undying love for her to anyone 'out there' who might get it? Did she think he would give her a 'good by' note? The notes were not intended for people on the island..they were intended for people in the 'real' world.

Heck..for all we know she might have been looking for Jack's note to see who he was writing to...

Her 'We didn't say good by' just doesn't make sense to me. She might really care about Sawyer..that's not the issue. It just doesn't add up.

I think she was up to something else personally.

The thing is if Kate wrote a note...it would have been there....and she would have retrieved it. If she were being devious...she wouldn't have done it in front of Sun. She'd have found out where the bottle was and gone back later. Kate is very calculating when she's up to something. Same would hold true if she was curious about what Jack or anyone else wrote...They are not in danger so she wouldn't be tearing through the notes without thinking.

She wasn't looking for a note that Sawyer wrote to HER. She was just looking for something he might have written. It's not totally logical, but again...not really thinking with logic there. Kate is the only one who knows about Sawyer's past...who understands what his life has been like somewhat. They had a connection and they didn't get a chance to say goodbye. If there was someone he cared enough to write to..I just think she wanted to hold onto it or something because it's something tangible and she never had that tangible goodbye with him.

I'm not saying she wasn't concerned for the rafters at all - she was. But her initial rxn was to ask Sun "where is the bottle?" I was just pointing that out. All the little things, the writers throw in ;) But ya, I agree that Kate was concerned about Sawyer.

Where's the bottle' is exactly what I would say if I had someone I cared about on that raft. For one thing I wouldn't want to believe Sun...I'd want to see it for myself. Denial. And also again it's something tangible to hold onto. Seemed a perfectly normal reaction to me.

You are right but that is not the way they have written Kate. The few times she 'loses' it normally has to do with having to confront someone in real physical pain or something she could not plan ahead for. At other times she is methodical and manipulative and seems to have an underlining ulterior motive at times.

I'm NOT saying that there isn't more to her than that. I'm just saying that someone who has lived that way for so long NORMALLY doesn't suddenly let their guard down..ever. That's the way she has been written up til now.

And as I said I have NO problem with the idea that she cares about Sawyer. None at all. Its just that we have a long history of her deflecting the answer to straight forward questions.

And just because she might have an hidden agenda that also does not mean she doesn't honestly also care about Sawyer. It doesn't have to be either/ or. It can be and/both. She has to look out for herself and her own intersts first AND she cares about what happened to Sawyer.

Strictly out of curiosity... last week, after the *girls at a sleepover* moment of giggling while eating dinner, were Jate threads bombarded by boorish SKaters bent on exposing the insipidness which is Jack?

Just wondering if the digression in this thread is revenge for some perceived slight, or an opening salvo of a planned invasion?

You are right but that is not the way they have written Kate. The few times she 'loses' it normally has to do with having to confront someone in real physical pain or something she could not plan ahead for. At other times she is methodical and manipulative and seems to have an underlining ulterior motive at times.

I'm NOT saying that there isn't more to her than that. I'm just saying that someone who has lived that way for so long NORMALLY doesn't suddenly let their guard down..ever. That's the way she has been written up til now.

And as I said I have NO problem with the idea that she cares about Sawyer. None at all. Its just that we have a long history of her deflecting the answer to straight forward questions.

And just because she might have an hidden agenda that also does not mean she doesn't honestly also care about Sawyer. It doesn't have to be either/ or. It can be and/both. She has to look out for herself and her own intersts first AND she cares about what happened to Sawyer.

I know...lol...it's not that I think people are saying she didn't care about Sawyer, it's just that I really didn't see manipulation from Kate in that moment. She's more calculating when she's being manipulative. She seemed to be acting from instinct in that scene. And the way they showed Sun's reaction, it was like it dawned on her what Kate was doing and a knowing look came onto her face. And Kate looked like she didn't really want Sun to know.

The only other times that we've seen Kate be TRULY manipulative on the island were with in the Pilot with Sawyer and the gun, Jack and the case...and in Born to Run. And by that I mean that there were obvious ulterior motives...she was out of herself. And all of those times we had serious hints with her behaviour. There just wasn't any of that.

Plus it would just seem really out of place in this episode to me...given the theme with Sun and Jin and the emotional tone.

And it's not true that Kate hasn't let her guard down...she was upset visibly several times on the island...which had nothing to do with schemes of her.

I read the whole thread and noone mentioned the look on Kates face when Sun told her she had found the bottle. I watched twice and I read fear on her face, not sadness or any other emotion, pure fear. Did anyone else see that?


I think that it's the popular consensus that Jack and Kate wind up together, but she's really much more compatible with Sawyer.

I won't be surprised either way, but I would enjoy watching Sawyer and Kate's relationship develop more than her and Jack. My life parallels S&K's love life. I'm reunited with my childhood sweetheart who was the poster child for the "bad boy" and he is now a Teddy Bear. We brought out the good soft side in each other because we felt safe together and unjudged. Sound familiar?


My quick impression of Kate/Sawter reunion...

SAWYER: (falls to the ground exhausted) Nice to be home.

KATE: (spots Sawyer from afar and pushes Jack ans Sayid aside...takes off running for Sawyer) Oh my .... Are you ok? I am so glad you are alive! What happened out there? Who the hell is that (looking at Ana)?? You didnt trick her into making out with you did you? Why is she looking at me like that? :hypocrit:

It will be a beautiful thing.


There have been numerous occasions when she was just there with Sawyer. No reason at all. That would lead me to believe that when she is just being herself - just hanging out - just wanting to be comfortable - she chooses to keep company with Sawyer.

I'd say that speaks volumes about how she feels about the two men.

I never noticed that before. Until the scene in EHH where they are eating on the beach, they've never just hung. I can picture a few times where she's joined Jack on the beach, when he's sitting alone, but I think it was always right after a major trauma.

Of course Kate didn't want Sun to know whatever it was that she was doing. When she 'palmed' the key from the Marshall's wallet she deflected attention from herself by 'pretending' to be upset. When she wanted to get information from Jack about the Marshall "Did he say anything' she pretended to be concerned. Its not all that big of a stretch that she could also 'pretend' that what she was doing was looking for info about Sawyer while in reality be looking for something else.

Its a fine line they are walking with Kate and this scene shows that while some see a piece of humanity in her and others seem to see her behavior as 'business as usual-we can't really trust her' kind of thing.

I'm still in the 'neither scenario' makes sense.

She told Sawyer she didn't like good byes. She knew the raft trip was dangerous. She is a woman who has lived with life and death and danger. Suddenly the reality of something happenining to the raftees makes her lose it and all of a sudden she 'cares'.

It could be just old fashioned emotional reaction coming to the fore but then again with Kate we really truly can't be sure.

I liked that Kate revealed that she really cares about Sawyer. She didn't say it outright, but when she said "I didn't say goodbye", she looked so incredibly sad.

I DON'T THINK SHE WAS REFERRING TO SAWYER!!! This doesn't give any reason to why she'd be reading the messages. Furthermore, why would Sawyer write a message if he was ON the raft? He could ideally give any message he wanted to verbally!

I think Sun guessed wrong. Kate didn't deny it. THINK of Kate's character. She doesn't give in to ANYONE - male or female - who can't benefit her!

Well understanding logically that she might not see Sawyer again...and that he might die...is really different from seeing the reality of that.

And YES Kate is very closed off...but she really didn't show her hand TOO much last night. It's not like she broke down in tears or anything, she just had a vulnerable moment. I like when Kate has those moments...for any reason. And to ME they just seem different than her more manipulative moments

When she palmed the key with Jack...we KNEW about it right away. It wasn't like she palmed the key and we were never told whether she did it or not...or left guessing. And with the Marshall....it was a great moment because that same episode we found out what her concern for the Marshall was REALLY about ;)

So I SUPPOSE there could be a follow-up episode where we find out Kate was up to something. If that happens I'll eat my words I swear...LOL ;). But if we never hear anything about Kate and a letter in the bottle again...then I don't believe she was up to something. Because the writers wouldn't put that in there and not reveal it or give us something concrete to at least make us go 'hmmm'. If some viewers suspect something suspicious and it's never followed up on, I think it's fair to say that they were reading too much into it.

If some viewers suspect something suspicious and it's never followed up on, I think it's fair to say that they were reading too much into it.

That's completely fair. Its like the theorists who make much ado about ONE prop that is seen once and never commented upon. If they don't come back to this I will say it was an emotional reaction.

If we see Kate trying to sneak a look at the bottle when no one else is around...I'll say she is up to something. ;)

Strictly out of curiosity... last week, after the *girls at a sleepover* moment of giggling while eating dinner, were Jate threads bombarded by boorish SKaters bent on exposing the insipidness which is Jack?

Just wondering if the digression in this thread is revenge for some perceived slight, or an opening salvo of a planned invasion?
ppl who don't like Kate and Jack expressed their viewpoints on those threads and pardon but I think it's uncalled for to refer to us as boorish because we're giving our opinions. Ppl have been pretty respectful & this is a discussion thread so to imply it's a planned shipper war is inflammatory & inaccurate. Frankly I'd rather not be involved in shipper debate at all & often go to great lengths to avoid & prevent it. I think many wouldn't have responded if Jate hadn't been brought up in comparison.. I know personally I had no intention to participate until several analyzations were made about Jack and Kate that I had another viewpoint on.I'm certain had the Jack and Kate threads been inaccurately analyzing Kate and Sawyer in your opinion, then ppl would have replied in kind & I wouldn't have ?'d their reason or right to do so.

After Kate palmed that key - I wonder if she took away a note or two from that bottle that Sun did not see her do.

With Kate - there's always two things going on - her genuine concern for someone and her own self-interest. It's her own self-interest that usually wins out - but doesn't always get her very far!

It will be interesting to see where the TPTB go with this - if anywhere.

All in all - interesting scene - interesting thread!

I think Kate definitely had a nefarious, or at least mischevious, purpose in going through those messages. She was looking for something, and I don't buy for a minute that it had to do with saying good-bye to Sawyer. Why would she expect him to have written something, when he was the delivery boy?

I don't think she wrote a message herself, either. Who would she write to? And she'd have to expect Sawyer to get bored on the raft and read everyone's messages, so she wouldn't send a confession or anything incriminating, would she?

Maybe.....she wrote something to Sawyer, expecting him to read it, and doesn't want any fellow castaways to see it.

ppl who don't like Kate and Jack expressed their viewpoints on those threads and pardon but I think it's uncalled for to refer to us as boorish because we're giving our opinions. Ppl have been pretty respectful & this is a discussion thread so to imply it's a planned shipper war is inflammatory & inaccurate. Frankly I'd rather not be involved in shipper debate at all & often go to great lengths to avoid it. I think many wouldn't have responded if Jate hadn't been brought up in comparison.. I know personally I had no intention to participate until several analyzations were made about Jack and Kate that I had another viewpoint on.I'm certain had the Jack and Kate threads been inaccurately analyzing Kate and Sawyer in your opinion, then ppl would have replied in kind & I wouldn't have ?'d their reason or right to do so.

I did not refer to you, or anyone in particular as boorish. Although I do believe the term has applied to most of us in both camps at times. In my observations, it is usually the newer posters who open the can of worms. I know that I was guilty of that myself when I first began posting in character threads. I would not pay any particular attention to the forum or thread title and jump in with inappropriate posts and cause explosions. Thus I usually ignore "war" posts from newer posters. I was just a little surprised to see several veterans jumping into the fray here. (particularly in light of the recent incursion into OutKasts, which you very deftly nipped in the bud)

As I implied in my first post in this thread, what I find really facinating is how completely differently the same scene can be interpreted.

Personally, I think there should be an officially sacntioned shipper war forum/thread. It would give everyone a place to get their frustrations out ... a place to scream and yell .. and perhaps keep it from spilling across the site. But then again, it might just end up making it worse. Who knows.

I don't know about anyone else... but this is what I think. We know that Sawyer didn't write anything. He says as much on the raft to Walt ("The only letter I ever wrote was to the man I'm going to kill."). Classic Sawyer. Kate at least fronts the idea that she knows Sawyer well. It seems a bit off that Kate would actually think that Sawyer wrote anything and put it in the bottle. Besides that... the bottle contained messages that were supposed to be for those in the real world and not stuck on the island.

What the reason was, I have no idea. She probably DOES feel bad for not having said goodbye to Sawyer, but in all honesty... I think that has nothing to do with why she was tearing through those messages. There was another reason.

Your right rvarzea, both of them arent very likely to have written anything for the bottle, but to me she seemed frantic about finding a note that she consciously knew probably wasn't there, but subconsciously hoped. Actions speak louder than words :D...

I'm not totally certain what to make of things...but I did notice Kate seemed most concerned with getting her hands on that bottle. Her first words weren't in wonder about the raftees...her first words were "where is it?". My suspicion is that she wrote a note to someone back home, thinking she would be rescued and long gone before anyone read it....she looked like she was in self-preservation mode going through those notes, and honestly would it make sense for her to be looking for something from Sawyer? What? Was he supposed to sit down and write a note while the raft was sinking?

I'm not totally certain what to make of things...but I did notice Kate seemed most concerned with getting her hands on that bottle. Her first words weren't in wonder about the raftees...her first words were "where is it?". My suspicion is that she wrote a note to someone back home, thinking she would be rescued and long gone before anyone read it....she looked like she was in self-preservation mode going through those notes, and honestly would it make sense for her to be looking for something from Sawyer? What? Was he supposed to sit down and write a note while the raft was sinking?

I don't think she was necessarily looking for something from Sawyer. I think she may have been looking to see if anything was added after the raft left. Particularly from Jin. Any kind of clue ... if not to what eventually happened, then perhaps at least to how things were going before the end.

She didn't appear to be reading the messages. She appeared to be looking to see who wrote them, then tossing them and moving on.

But ... the one thing I have not seen mentioned is that she didn't resume looking through the notes once she saw Sun's ring. Sun was very upset. Kate was trying to comfort her.

Kate didn't know where the ring was ... but if by chance Jin had written a message and put it into the bottle, then Sun would at least have something tangible to hold on to.

I did not refer to you, or anyone in particular as boorish. Although I do believe the term has applied to most of us in both camps at times. In my observations, it is usually the newer posters who open the can of worms. I know that I was guilty of that myself when I first began posting in character threads. I would not pay any particular attention to the forum or thread title and jump in with inappropriate posts and cause explosions. Thus I usually ignore "war" posts from newer posters. I was just a little surprised to see several veterans jumping into the fray here. (particularly in light of the recent incursion into OutKasts, which you very deftly nipped in the bud)

As I implied in my first post in this thread, what I find really facinating is how completely differently the same scene can be interpreted.

Personally, I think there should be an officially sacntioned shipper war forum/thread. It would give everyone a place to get their frustrations out ... a place to scream and yell .. and perhaps keep it from spilling across the site. But then again, it might just end up making it worse. Who knows.

apologies if I sounded as if you were directing it at me personally...I took your statements as general to Jaters and was replying in that vain. I just added my personal viewpoint as well.

Well, I suppose the nature of the show is to leave room for interpretation & there are others here not partial to JK who are questioning Kate's motives. I believe she did express some concern.... As another example of varying interpretation, many Jaters believe that Jack knows about Kate partaking in the poisoning from their scene in BTR, but a lot of Skaters disagree. I think the writers use that little bit of room as a tool to maintain the triangle.

I don't want to hijack the thread here lol, so lastly in terms of a ship debate section I think it would just make things worse.:undecide: There was a thread like that & folks feel too passionate where it becomes kind of passive undermining of the other pairing. Doesn't really serve a purpose imo so all we can do is continue to express ourselves respectfully when debate arises.

definitely! yay! kate and sawyer! i wonder how she'll react when she finds out sawyer is alive...:smile:

I cannot wait for that moment, myself.

There are so many ways to interrupt Kate's actions, you guy's have hit on some great ones, I did notice she stopped looking at the notes when she spotted Sun's ring, that was a great scene, also she DID seem to have a definate purpose for searching thru the notes, not really stopping to read any of them.

Even when Sun called her on it, she did not give an excuse, which i thought was strange, looks like she would have taken up for herself. With Kate, it's always something!!

Did you notice, she didn't even have any air-time until 45 minutes into the show? I thought they were going to leave her out all together last nite.

I don't think she was necessarily looking for something from Sawyer. I think she may have been looking to see if anything was added after the raft left. Particularly from Jin. Any kind of clue ... if not to what eventually happened, then perhaps at least to how things were going before the end.

She didn't appear to be reading the messages. She appeared to be looking to see who wrote them, then tossing them and moving on.

But ... the one thing I have not seen mentioned is that she didn't resume looking through the notes once she saw Sun's ring. Sun was very upset. Kate was trying to comfort her.

Kate didn't know where the ring was ... but if by chance Jin had written a message and put it into the bottle, then Sun would at least have something tangible to hold on to.


Hmm....possible that she was looking for something from Jin to Sun....but again, same as with Sawyer, would she think he would sit down and write a note while the raft was sinking? Something still isn't right...I may have to rewatch a few times and see if she appears to palm anything, but thus far things just don't add up.

I think Kate had more motives than just looking for Sawyer's note. I also think
she was sorry they didn't say good bye and that she is worried about him,
however she's been running for too long to let down her guard.

I kind of don't think that "Sawyer's note" exists. Why would he have written something if he was going to physically be there? :confused:

By far the least interesting aspect of this show is which character is going to hook up with someone else. Unless it serves to give us further understanding of the characters, I could care less. Sayid and Shannon's relationship was very telling as far as both of their characters went, and has a long way to go yet before we can completely be convinced that Shannon isn't just using him like she has all the other men in her life.

I am much more concerned with whether or not I can trust them or think they are good people than whether or not they're going to make out with each other.

By far the least interesting aspect of this show is which character is going to hook up with someone else. Unless it serves to give us further understanding of the characters, I could care less. Sayid and Shannon's relationship was very telling as far as both of their characters went, and has a long way to go yet before we can completely be convinced that Shannon isn't just using him like she has all the other men in her life.

I am much more concerned with whether or not I can trust them or think they are good people than whether or not they're going to make out with each other.

It's not about whether they are going to 'make out with eachother' :rolleyes:

That's completely simplifying complex human relationships. Romance and or deep human connection is an incredibly important aspect of life. It would be impossible to show a group of people stuck on an island for a long period of time without exploring developing feelings and connections.

That's completely fair. Its like the theorists who make much ado about ONE prop that is seen once and never commented upon. If they don't come back to this I will say it was an emotional reaction.

If we see Kate trying to sneak a look at the bottle when no one else is around...I'll say she is up to something. ;)


LOL...totally. Like I said if they adress this issue again in a way that's suspicious...I'll willingly admit that she was probably up to something!

I still think she looked genuinely upset about Sawyer in a way that suggests she really cares about him...and generally when someone is 'up to something' I look for clues in the acting which indicate there's another level to it. I've seen it with Evi before. Like when Jack asked her what was in the case besides the guns and she said "nothing"...it was written all over her face that she had something to hide. I didn't see it last night personally...but it's just my own opinion :)

I truly believe her concern for Sawyer is real...and even if she IS for some reason up to something, I'll stand by that. But if we hear more about Kate and the bottle..I'll admit it's not as straigtforward at I thought :)

Just identifying another parallel/connection of Kate and Sawyer that I don't think I've seen pointed out anywhere else: They were the only two people that blatently went through the notes, reading them. Sawyer did it out in the open on the raft, and Kate did it right in front of Sun.

No idea what that shows... Except maybe their disregard for privacy, or their trusting that the other people/person around them won't care or stop them.

I know curiosity would make me want to read the notes, too!

-kt

Ohh poor Kate misses Sawyer, :sadwalk: I bet she jumps his bones the second they make it to LOST-a-WAY camp, just like she did to Jack when he got out of the cave in.

Kate was looking for Jack's message. She knows full well that Sawyer did not, and would not, for that matter, write a message to put in a bottle. I think she wants to know if Jack is writing home to his wife or not.......

Kate was lying! She wanted to retrieve her message from the bottle before someone read it.

I think your right because I thought that I remember Sawyer saying he didn't want to put a message in the bottle... I know Kate might not know that but that would be a good excuse

Well understanding logically that she might not see Sawyer again...and that he might die...is really different from seeing the reality of that.

That point is EXACTLY the point I am trying to make about Jack "knowing" Kate was a criminal. Sure, Jack knew she was a criminal logically, but emotionally, especially considering he wants her, he didn't want to believe she would treat him the same way as everyone else, so he didn't believe it. In Whatever the Case May Be, Sawyer threatened that belief and then Kate destroyed it by palming the key. Jack's hurt in that scene was twofold. He was upset that Kate doesn't treat him differently than anyone else and he was upset that Sawyer knows Kate better than he does.

Ok, so Kate is this devious manipulative brilliant criminal, so could someone explain to me the stupidity of acting suspicious in front of Sun? The only reason they dug up the bottle was to find Sun's ring. It would be really easy for Kate to convince Sun to bury it again if she was that worried someone would find something incriminating in it. I could see someone arguing that Kate dug it up with Sun to make sure it was reburied, but why would you sift through the letters in a manner that draws that much attention to yourself?

To read the scene properly you need to read the episode properly. The episode was about true love and how it can't wait. In the beginning flashback, Jin said it could wait and his friend warned him otherwise. His friend turned out to be right. Sun searching for her wedding ring reminded everyone on the island of true love. It made Jack think about his own "missing" (we still don't know why) wedding ring. Someone else pointed out that marriage was all over the episode, Mr. Eko, Jack, Sawyer, the flashbacks, it was everywhere. The final scene was the continuation of this theme. Kate saw Sun's sadness over the bottle and it struck a chord in herself. She saw herself reflected in Sun which, in turn, caused Sun to see herself reflected in Kate. Kate may be a methodical criminal, but she's still a woman and when emotional, women often act in confusing ways, especially when it comes to the most powerful emotion of all love.

On a final note, is it really so hard to believe that Kate wasn't trying to manipulate Sun, the person she has manipulated the least (if at all) out of the people she talks to the most on the island? In many ways, Sun reflects Kate's lost innocence.

Kate was lying! She wanted to retrieve her message from the bottle before someone read it.


yep. This was my thought while that scene played out. Kate had NO reason
to read the notes because of James.

James didn't add a note to the bottle. He was ON THE RAFT.

Kate must have written something in her note that was NOT for island consumption.


wanna bet that James will taunt her with it once he's back with her?
I'm sure he read all the notes.

Is there a place to make an online wager on whether or not Kate EVER had a message in that bottle?

If so, I would happily bet at least a month's salary that there is not, nor was there ever a note from Kate in that bottle.

[QUOTE=QueenElessar;555997]Well understanding logically that she might not see Sawyer again...and that he might die...is really different from seeing the reality of that.[QUOTE]

That point is EXACTLY the point I am trying to make about Jack "knowing" Kate was a criminal. Sure, Jack knew she was a criminal logically, but emotionally, especially considering he wants her, he didn't want to believe she would treat him the same way as everyone else, so he didn't believe it. In Whatever the Case May Be, Sawyer threatened that belief and then Kate destroyed it by palming the key. Jack's hurt in that scene was twofold. He was upset that Kate doesn't treat him differently than anyone else and he was upset that Sawyer knows Kate better than he does.

Ok, so Kate is this devious manipulative brilliant criminal, so could someone explain to me the stupidity of acting suspicious in front of Sun? The only reason they dug up the bottle was to find Sun's ring. It would be really easy for Kate to convince Sun to bury it again if she was that worried someone would find something incriminating in it. I could see someone arguing that Kate dug it up with Sun to make sure it was reburied, but why would you sift through the letters in a manner that draws that much attention to yourself?

To read the scene properly you need to read the episode properly. The episode was about true love and how it can't wait. In the beginning flashback, Jin said it could wait and his friend warned him otherwise. His friend turned out to be right. Sun searching for her wedding ring reminded everyone on the island of true love. It made Jack think about his own "missing" (we still don't know why) wedding ring. Someone else pointed out that marriage was all over the episode, Mr. Eko, Jack, Sawyer, the flashbacks, it was everywhere. The final scene was the continuation of this theme. Kate saw Sun's sadness over the bottle and it struck a chord in herself. She saw herself reflected in Sun which, in turn, caused Sun to see herself reflected in Kate. Kate may be a methodical criminal, but she's still a woman and when emotional, women often act in confusing ways, especially when it comes to the most powerful emotion of all love.

On a final note, is it really so hard to believe that Kate wasn't trying to manipulate Sun, the person she has manipulated the least (if at all) out of the people she talks to the most on the island? In many ways, Sun reflects Kate's lost innocence.


Well said. The entire theme was Lost and Found Love. Just as Kate is realizing she might have been feeling something close to love...she loses it (or she thinks she does).

Ties in nicely with Sun/Jin's storyline.

What makes no sense is Kate having a note in there...

First off...

Who was she writing to?
She already tried telling the authorities her side of the story and they didn't believe her. Kate likes to keep momento's of the men she's loved. The airplane was Tom's, she hoped she would find either a note to her from Sawyer or Sawyer's letter to the real Sawyer - something she could have since as of right now she thinks she's lost him.

Is it possible that Sawyer was looking specifically for Kate's message (which would have been to Sawyer and not some family member) when he opened up the bottle? (as opposed to just reading them all because he was bored and nosy). Maybe he and Kate had something worked out, and she was expecting to see a message back from Sawyer in the bottle. I'm not sure what their scheme could be, though...

We don't know who had a note in there except Hurley, Charlie, Shannon...some lady who is sleeping next to old Steve every night (forgot her name). Those are the only ones I remember but it looked like there was a bunch more in there...but those are the only ones we KNOW about. We don't even KNOW that Jack wrote one.

Kate had the opportunity. Charlie made the offer to Locke and Artz and of course Hurley before they set off for the Black Rock so I would 'assume' (a dangerous thing to do) that he made the offer to Kate off camera. Whether she did or not..we don't know. It doesn't make sense that she would. She might write to her friend Beth but other than that..I don't know who she would write to.

If she had written to Beth there might be something incriminating in that but for right now that seems unlikely.

On a final note, is it really so hard to believe that Kate wasn't trying to manipulate Sun, the person she has manipulated the least (if at all) out of the people she talks to the most on the island? In many ways, Sun reflects Kate's lost innocence.

Yikes I have to disagree Kate didn't manipulate Sun at all. She wanted the raft spot and it was her plan to poison Jin. She let Sun think she did it to help her (note the guilty look on Kate's face when Sun says "You were only trying to help me") . I love Kate & don't think she's all bad but in that instance I have to say it seemed kind of obvious she was being opportunistic taking advantage of Sun's desperation. She even went to Jack and asked him if someone would be taking Michael's spot & was offended he suggested she partook in the event when we know she did. Jack was right, he knew when she approached him to dig up the Marshal it was for more than just the guns, & he caught her with the key. I think he knows her pretty well.

We don't know who had a note in there except Hurley, Charlie, Shannon...some lady who is sleeping next to old Steve every night (forgot her name). .

That was Tracy. :biggrin:

Yikes I have to disagree Kate didn't manipulate Sun at all. She wanted the raft spot and it was her plan to poison Jin. She let Sun think she did it to help her (note the guilty look on Kate's face when Sun says "You were only trying to help me") . I love Kate & don't think she's all bad but in that instance I have to say it seemed kind of obvious she was being opportunistic taking advantage of Sun's desperation. She even went to Jack and asked him if someone would be taking Michael's spot & was offended he suggested she partook in the event when we know she did. Jack was right, he knew when she approached him to dig up the Marshal it was for more than just the guns, & he caught her with the key. I think he knows her pretty well.


You know that's the SECOND time I've mispoken about something from Exodus. Why am I blocking that episode? Probably because it was last to air and I had a lot going on in real life during that time. Anyway, me forgetting doesn't mean I wasn't wrong and the final note should be struck from the record!

Just like when Jack was stuck in the caves, man Kate ran right after him
Kate ran to the caves because that's physically possible. And this happened before she became attached to Sawyer.

What did you expect Kate to do to find Sawyer, swim out to open sea and search for the raft?

The problem with Jack is that he acts like the 40-Year Old Virgin around Kate. See him all blushed up and peeking at a woman who's obviously tightly wrapped in a bath towel just seemed so forced. Pretty out of character.

I think she was looking for her message... but I think it was a message for Sawyer, and here's why. When she was looking, she wasn't really reading. She looked and then threw it down. She didn't seem to find what she was looking for. Also, if you remember back to S1, Sawyer had been reading the letters. Perhaps he found her letter to HIM (she'd know he'd read them... I mean.. it's Sawyer, lol) and she didn't find it because he kept it with him. If that's the case... then maybe it will replace his old letter if it survived the water and such?

And you know, even if she didn't know if he'd read them on the raft, eventually when the got back to civilization and they pulled them out, he'd see the one with his name on it. Eventually he would have seen it one way or the other. I could see her panicking over the fact that he might never have gotten to read it...

Kate ran to the caves because that's physically possible. And this happened before she became attached to Sawyer.

What did you expect Kate to do to find Sawyer, swim out to open sea and search for the raft?

THANK YOU!

I know that Kate cares about Jack and I don't deny that...but that doesn't mean she wouldn't have done the same for Sawyer. Jack was in the caves...and as you said, she could run there to HELP. Kate deals with things by throwing herself into it physically. She was digging frantically...trying to DO something.

Actually I found her tearing through the notes last night to be similar. She was just looking for something tangible...and the bottle was all she had.

She can't physically go after Sawyer. And it's like all they have is this vague idea that he might not be okay. That's tough for her to deal with because she can't tackle the problem by throwing herself into it.

Well, as much as I hate to say it... I really was glad that Kate acknowledged a bit of her feelings towards Sawyer. Actually, I thought it was really sweet. I found myself liking her more because of that moment. I'm not always crazy about the Kate character, but if it's going to be between she and Ana... Well, I'll just SKate away now... :biggrin:

On a final note, is it really so hard to believe that Kate wasn't trying to manipulate Sun, the person she has manipulated the least (if at all) out of the people she talks to the most on the island? In many ways, Sun reflects Kate's lost innocence.

I agree! We have seen Kate manipulate Sawyer in numerous ways, Jack with the Halliburton case, I never bought her little speech to him before she went to follow Locke into the hatch, she manipulated Sun into poisoning Jin (so she could have a spot on the raft) and I know there have been other examples. So- a little more Sun manipulation is nothing.
While there may have been some truth about her comment about Sawyer, that's just a cover.

I don't think she was sending a message to Sawyer, I think if that was the case, she would put it in his gear or something to be sure he got it. I think it was for someone back in the real world. Beth maybe?

Lastly, the first thing she said when Sun told her about the bottle was 'Where is it?". Not "OMG I wonder if they are OK" or "I wonder what happened" her first thought was for the bottle. If she was really that concerned about Sawyer I would think his well being would be her first thought instead.


I like Kate, but as Jack said, I don't know what she is capable of.

The problem with Jack is that he acts like the 40-Year Old Virgin around Kate. See him all blushed up and peeking at a woman who's obviously tightly wrapped in a bath towel just seemed so forced. Pretty out of character.

So if a guy doesn't get like a wolf or is somewhat shy around a woman he cares for it's negative upon his manhood? It's along the same lines he hasn't put the power play on Kate after 40 days so he must be gay. :29:

I wouldn't say it's out of character for Jack or that it was forced. Jack is a gentleman & he does have a shy quality about him at times, his nervous smiles & laughs in contrast to his sometimes toughness. I prefer it because in my personal experiences I've grown weary of players. Ppl get embarrassed or timid regardless of their profession when they encounter a situation that catches them off guard. He didn't high tail it out of there like he could have. He stuck around & made pointless conversation to bide his time, who asks how a shower was? lol. And with a towel there's the element of excitement preserved when the person isn't completely naked. It leaves something up to the imagination & the concept it could unravel at any moment adds to the charge. I thought it was a very honest moment actually. There should be some giddyness & shyness when you have an affinity for someone imo in certain circumstances. Especially when you have not yet crossed a certain line. When you set out to seduce a person is when it's a calculated & manipulated moment. Ppl responding w/o control & surrendering to the butterfly feeling you get in an awkward spot does not disappear w/age & varies w/the person & situation...It's funny Kate who is so used to having her way w/men is reduced to nervous mush, & Jack as you pntd out, a doctor who has seen naked bodies, has feelings for her that would make him get flustered. It all contributed to the naturalness, sincerity & sweetness of the scene imo.

The problem with Jack is that he acts like the 40-Year Old Virgin around Kate. See him all blushed up and peeking at a woman who's obviously tightly wrapped in a bath towel just seemed so forced. Pretty out of character.

You don't agree with assessments of Kate and her motivations with the bottle so you feel a need to dig back an episode and take some cheap (not to mention way off the mark) shots at Jack and the shower scene? Interesting...you must not feel your arguments on the subject at hand are all that persuasive to resort to that tactic. Just an observation.

What would you have thought Jack should do when he walked into that shower? Should he have been all neanderthal and attacked her? "Me Jack, me take Kate!"?:rolleyes:

I don't agree that he acts like a virginal 40 year old at all....he acts like a guy who is smitten but has too much on his mind to act on it.

And just so you know, since you're resorting to Jack shots to support your argument...not everyone who noticed something off with Kate's reactions was a Jack or Jate fan....I've encountered a lot of fans from many different groups who believe Kate was pulling something there. Even some Sawyer fans. So let's roll up the sleeves and work on some cheap shots at the whole darned crew.....

As for the "Kate swimming for the raft" thing......I'd like to point out that nothing qualmed her anxieties when Jack was trapped...people couldn't even talk to her without getting that dagger glare because they were in her way. Whatever prompted her concern in this instance, whether it be the fate of the rafteers or retrieving her own note, it only lasted about 10 seconds. There was a huge difference in her attitude in these two instances. I'm not saying she doesn't care about Sawyer, because I think she does (as a friend), but there appeared to be something else going on here....and these writers are infamous for little things going on while you're busy noticing something else.

I really don't think she wrote Sawyer a note.....if she had written him a note to say goodbye, why would she say she didn't get to say goodbye? Again, something that doesn't add up. Unless, as I have seen speculated elsewhere, she wasn't talking about Sawyer when she said she didn't get to say goodbye (someone at home maybe?). She never said Sawyer's name, Sun did. I'm not saying that is what happened, but it's another possibility.

I'm still confused that some people (in other threads, I don't recall seeing this in this thread) say "who would Kate have written to?".....obviously she had someone back home who cared about her. She had money and a letter waiting for her at that hotel, which has yet to be explained. Someone was helping her.

I still say that Kate was looking for Jack's message, to see whom he was writing to. Sure, she cares about Sawyer, but she also knows deep down that Sawyer will lead to heart break, something she is quite used to. She also knows that Sawyer would not take the time to write a note to anyone. This may be her way of finding out indirectly about Jack's marital status.........I am all for Jack and Kate

But, Kate's current criminal status could pose a problem.......:)

I am not so sure that Kate wrote to anyone. As a fugitive, that might not be the best idea, you would think she would want the world to think her dead. I think she uses Sawyer as a buffer between herself and Jack, not knowing what Jack's feelings are for her.

I still say that Kate was looking for Jack's message, to see whom he was writing to. Sure, she cares about Sawyer, but she also knows deep down that Sawyer will lead to heart break, something she is quite used to. This may be her way of finding out indirectly about Jack's marital status.........I am all for Jack and Kate

But, Kate's current criminal status could pose a problem.......:)

I am not so sure that Kate wrote to anyone. As a fugitive, that might not be the best idea, you would think she would want the world to think her dead. I think she uses Sawyer as a buffer between herself and Jack, not knowing what Jack's feelings are for her.

Okay...I know that Kate cares a lot about Jack...I'm not denying that at ALL. But I dont' think it makes any sense for her to tear through messages in a bottle right away in front of Sun if she wanted to see what Jack wrote to someone. SURE she'd be curious, I don't put THAT past her...LOL. But there would be no need to get frantic and upset about it given that she could go back to the bottle at any time and check in secret...read the notes. And Jack is alive and well on her side of the island, so it's not as if she's worried about him.

Okay...I know that Kate cares a lot about Jack...I'm not denying that at ALL. But I dont' think it makes any sense for her to tear through messages in a bottle right away in front of Sun if she wanted to see what Jack wrote to someone. SURE she'd be curious, I don't put THAT past her...LOL. But there would be no need to get frantic and upset about it given that she could go back to the bottle at any time and check in secret...read the notes. And Jack is alive and well on her side of the island, so it's not as if she's worried about him.

Charlie didn't have to read Claire's diary either, but he wanted to know what was in her head, as well as her heart without the pressure of being face to face. She could have come back and dug the bottle up, but I think she was caught up in the moment and couldn't resist. But you have a good point :)

Yeah....lol...I mean Kate's a lot like Sawyer and I believe she's curious to read people's notes. I just think if she wasn't really worried about Sawyer, she'd be thinking logically and she'd realize that she could read them ALL at her leisure if she came back later ;)

okay well here are the points. The writers even say that Kate and Jack will get through a lot to be together, that there are going to be character developments and we will in fact see Kate and Sawyer together for a bit. They have said that Kate sees Jack as an adult relationship she wants and I'm sure that's what it's all headed for. Sawyer and Kate do not do anything to help eachother turn into better people, they both have the same deceptive ways. I still haven't seen anything to answer the question I've been asking for so long. What have we seen so far from either of them that will actually help change and develope their characters into better people. I'm open to sugestions and I like to view the story from as many ways as possible. The fact is that Jack and Kate do a lot for eachother to Grow, and are on a level of close friends, and have an attraction to eachother. The writers have said that in several intereviews.

okay well here are the points. The writers even say that Kate and Jack will get through a lot to be together, that there are going to be character developments and we will in fact see Kate and Sawyer together for a bit. They have said that Kate sees Jack as an adult relationship she wants and I'm sure that's what it's all headed for. Sawyer and Kate do not do anything to help eachother turn into better people, they both have the same deceptive ways. I still haven't seen anything to answer the question I've been asking for so long. What have we seen so far from either of them that will actually help change and develope their characters into better people. I'm open to sugestions and I like to view the story from as many ways as possible. The fact is that Jack and Kate do a lot for eachother to Grow, and are on a level of close friends, and have an attraction to eachother. The writers have said that in several intereviews.

*scratches head*

I am a little confused at the moment... Do you remember the source, KNJ? Because the only source I have seen so far on the matter is DL confirming that Kate and Sawyer would get together in season 2. I remember the other part about Kate and Jack distinctively from an interview with Mat Fox, where he said that he sees Kate and Sawyer getting together in the nearer future and that Kate and Jack might get together in a farer future. But that was just his opinion, it didn't mean that is what is going to happen. This interview with Foxy has been tossed around a lot and at some point was quoted as having been said by the writers. But I clearly remember it was a part of that Fox interview.

I think the only first hand confirmation on the matter is DL saying that Kate and Sawyer would hook up this season. So if you have some additional sources on the Kate and Jack part that would be just great, KNJ! :smile:

(for the record, I do believe that Kate and Sawyer will get together this season and that Kate and Jack will get together on the long run, I just want some sources, if it has been said by the writers, you see... :biggrin: )

As for the messages in the bottle:

Come on, guys, of course she was looking for a Sawyer message. That is what the entire scene was about, her admitting to Sun that she has feelings for him. Nobody in their right mind could possibly believe that she goes through the messages just to see if Jack said anything nice about her. Seriously.

The notes were all about sending out messages to those loved ones that were NOT around (family at home etc.) and if there was trouble on the raft then Kate quite rightly concluded that the rafters themselves might have left a message in the bottle and thrown it in the water hoping the current would take it back to the island, so the other survivors would know the had run into trouble and most likely were not going to make it.

Kate wasn't looking for a Jack message about HER because there was no reason for him writing one. What would that message have been like anyway: "Btw, I love Kate, the hot chick who incidentally is with me on the island right now. If someone finds this message tell her I like her because I am too much of a chicken to do it myself."? Come on... :biggrin:

The only other option is the one that waywardwanderer mentioned, namely that SHE left a message for Sawyer in the bottle, hoping she read him right and that he would eventually read the messages. ;)

okay well here are the points. The writers even say that Kate and Jack will get through a lot to be together, that there are going to be character developments and we will in fact see Kate and Sawyer together for a bit. They have said that Kate sees Jack as an adult relationship she wants and I'm sure that's what it's all headed for. Sawyer and Kate do not do anything to help eachother turn into better people, they both have the same deceptive ways. I still haven't seen anything to answer the question I've been asking for so long. What have we seen so far from either of them that will actually help change and develope their characters into better people. I'm open to sugestions and I like to view the story from as many ways as possible. The fact is that Jack and Kate do a lot for eachother to Grow, and are on a level of close friends, and have an attraction to eachother. The writers have said that in several intereviews.

The writers have said equally good thinga about Kate and Sawyer as well though. This is a triangle...and they're playing it down the middle. They're not really taking sides because the whole point is that they want viewers to be able to root for either.

I disagree that Kate and Sawyer do nothing to help eachother...but that's an entirely different discussion ;). If you seriously want me to go through all of the reasons, I'll send you a rather lengthy PM soon...LOL

At any rate....the writers have no said Jack and Kate will be together in the end...and vice versa. They've made cases for both couples :)

The writers have said equally good thinga about Kate and Sawyer as well though. This is a triangle...and they're playing it down the middle. They're not really taking sides because the whole point is that they want viewers to be able to root for either.



Actually, make that a trapeze, because with Ana-Lucia showing up, that is, confirmed by the writers, where the story is going: Ana-Jack-Kate-Sawyer. :biggrin:

(P.S.: Queen, do you think I should put this in spoiler tags?)

Honestly I would love for you to send me a pm (when you have the time) I've been waiting to have a discussion with someone to get another point of view. i'm not a person to argue ha ha I just LOVE to get different takes on things and dind't want anyone to get upset. I've just heard that stuff from different interviews and write ups with DL and JJabrams. Now wheather it's word for word or not.......I certainly couldn't tell you that. I just know it's been said several times, so i'm assuming from MY take on things and the things that have been said that's how it's gonna go:)

Honestly I would love for you to send me a pm (when you have the time) I've been waiting to have a discussion with someone to get another point of view. i'm not a person to argue ha ha I just LOVE to get different takes on things and dind't want anyone to get upset. I've just heard that stuff from different interviews and write ups with DL and JJabrams. Now wheather it's word for word or not.......I certainly couldn't tell you that. I just know it's been said several times, so i'm assuming from MY take on things and the things that have been said that's how it's gonna go:)

Ah, but you have seen it mentioned in some DL and JJ stuff with your own two eyes, then I am cool, KNJ, lol, that is what I wanted to know since so many stuff goes around several corners these days and you never know most of the time where it is coming from anymore. :biggrin:

Was the "waiting for the pm" part addressed to me or one of the other lovely ladies in this thread, KNJ? :smile: I am not a person to argue either (though my husband would probably disagree, lol!), but like you I love sharing different perspectives so if that "discussion invitaton" was meant for me let me know. ;)

YES I swear I have seen and heard these things with my own two ears and eyes. Now can I remember where and all that jazz, well some of it's been posted here before, I know I bought the lost magazine so it could have been there. I would not make it up. I wrote the pm thing for Queen elliser because she said she would pm me about it. I personally just find differen opinions interesting because it's not how I want the show to go, it's what I see happening. I love mystery books, shows ext. But it's so interesting to me how someone can interepret things soooo differently from myself. I'm like either WOW I never thought of it that way, or good lord that can't be so. ha ha I'm such a dork, but anywho non the less I never post anything to ruffle feathers but more to gain insight and put my own feelings online.

*snort*

Well, if it puts your mind at ease I never considered you a dork. :biggrin: And of course I believe you saw and read it in the DL and JJ stuff. :smile:

And yes, it is interesting how the same scenes can sometimes be perceived and interpreted so very differently...

The only thing Island catty is this.........I can't remember where I read that stuff, and now you've got me thinking...........ugg let me find it tonight after work before you take it for fact and not opinion mixed in with interviews.

the Jate/Skate comments by Damon KNJ speaks of can be found in Kristin's E online chat w/Damon from Sep 19th.

http://www.eonline.com/Gossip/Kristin/Trans/Lindelof/index.html

I know the topic got on JK/KS because Jack and Kate were questioned, but I think it deviated from the thread intent of KS developments. So for me unless JK are brought into q again, I'm going to refrain from ship debate here. :)

ohhh YAY banshee thanks so much, I thought I was losing it, whoohoo. I'm so glad ya helped me out:)

the Jate/Skate comments by Damon KNJ speaks of can be found in Kristin's E online chat w/Damon from Sep 19th.

http://www.eonline.com/Gossip/Kristin/Trans/Lindelof/index.html

I know the topic got on JK/KS because Jack and Kate were questioned, but I think it deviated from the thread intent of KS developments. So for me unless JK are brought into q again, I'm going to refrain from ship debate here. :)

Thanks so much, banshee! :smile: As I said I *did* believe KNJ (honestly, hon, I DO!!! :biggrin: ), but with all the rumors it is good to have some black and white reference every now and then. So thanks again for digging that up.

Thanks so much, banshee! :smile: As I said I *did* believe KNJ (honestly, hon, I DO!!! :biggrin: ), but with all the rumors it is good to have some black and white reference every now and then. So thanks again for digging that up.
no problem :) I was just aware of where they came from.

no problem :) I was just aware of where they came from.

Then your memory is WAY better then mine. :biggrin:

Btw, I have been meaning to ask... that "I got HER back" line in your Avatar, what is that about, I can't picture it anywhere and I am curious. ;)

Also... I just thought of something else. I wonder if maybe she didn't write a confession of some sort... maybe she wrote a letter for Sawyer, telling him EVERYTHING. She figured she'd never see him again, right?? What a perfect time to tell someone so important. She didn't have to worry about the consequences.

Perhaps that's what sent her into a panic. The fact that all her dirty little secrets were buried on that beach. She would HAVE to find it, right?

I don't think she found what she was looking for... and maybe Sawyer read it after all...

Then your memory is WAY better then mine. :biggrin:

Btw, I have been meaning to ask... that "I got HER back" line in your Avatar, what is that about, I can't picture it anywhere and I am curious. ;)
oh lol...it's a play on Kate's words to Jack, "I got your back" when he's checking hers out in EHH after the shower LOL.

I read it the opposite. He WAS checking her out but denied it. I think he IS affected by her playing him, but resisting it because although he is attracted to her as a woman he DOES feel "holier than thou" as a person... and all of his forgiveness for her is being driven by the chemistry of the attraction. He is slowly coming to accept and like her as a person IN SPITE of her past, but he only gave her a chance because her games are working. Kate was in total control in the shower scene, and Jack was the one who was nonplussed.

and I still think everything I said about Sawyer applies.

Exactly it was Jack who believed her crap about not being the leader in the poison game....She played the manipulation game with Jack and she wins..She plays it with Sawyer..and he sees right thru the game..and calls her on it

Exactly it was Jack who believed her crap about not being the leader in the poison game....She played the manipulation game with Jack and she wins..She plays it with Sawyer..and he sees right thru the game..and calls her on it

And did you see the deleted scene, where Sawyer realizes that Kate went out into the jungle on his boar hunt because she wanted to get the gun back for Jack? He didn't see that one coming.

Personally, I think Jack did know Kate was behind the poisoning. He suspected her immediately, and she didn't respond when he asked her. He actually reads her pretty well. I recall that when she wanted him to help her dig up the marshal, he knew immediately there was more to it, and he caught her in the act.

I wouldn't say Kate was 'in control' in the shower scene...not at all! She was a nervous wreck until she managed to gain composure as she was headed out the door. The girl couldn't hold onto her bra for goodness sakes.

I agree, in fact I always figured that Jack managed to figure out it was Sun who did the actual poisoning THROUGH the fact that he knew Kate was involved but just needed to figure out how. He asked her and when she was only able to answer him with a "do you really think I could do something like that..." instead of a simple "no" that she was involved.

However he knows Kate's MO, because she used it on him. She likes to use other people to do her "dirty work" for her. She uses something she know will get to a person(with Jack it was keeping people safe--thus not having the guns fall into the wrong hands but right away he KNEW there was more to it than that and called her on it--what was "WE have a problem or YOU have a problem?" something like that). From there all he had to do was think "Someone Kate is close with who has some sort of stake in one of the people on the raft", not much of a jump to get to Sun and her estranged husband Jin.

Even though it was never outright said, I am firmly convinced Jack totally knows Kate was involved in that poisoning. THAT is one of the reasons he was able to NOT let everyone know Sun was also the guilty party.

If he really believed Kate was innocent in this, he wouldn't have let her take the blame to Michael and everyone else(as she did when Sawyer let everyone know about her criminal record). But he believes she was involved and she and Sun did it together. So rather than having two people outcast, and esp. to destroy the relationship between a husband and wife who were already having serious issues--he was able to keep Sun's secret. This way at least Kate still has Sun and Jack and probably Hurley, Sun still has everyone's respect and is able to make up with her husband before he leaves on a very dangerous journey.

For me that is the only way the whole scenario makes sense. Otherwise Jack just came up with Sun out of the blue and yet he still would have let everyone believe Kate was guilty even though he knew(or so he would think) she was innocent. And I don't think he'd do that.

And let's bring it back to Kate and Sawyer . . .

why would kate write something to incriminate her self she too smart for that
I think that's one of the best points I've read in this entire thread. ;)


Kate was lying! She wanted to retrieve her message from the bottle before someone read it.
So let me get this straight, she was trying to retrieve a letter she didn't want anyone to read, that she had slyly put in a bottle that was intended to be given over to authorities for delivery upon the raftees' rescue, or that could be intercepted by anyone and read by any number of people?



the Jate/Skate comments by Damon KNJ speaks of can be found in Kristin's E online chat w/Damon from Sep 19th.

http://www.eonline.com/Gossip/Kristi...lof/index.html

THANK YOU for backing up my point that the writers DID intend there to be something between Sawyer and Kate - not just a bunch of lusting on Sawyer's side. If Kate didn't have any feelings for Sawyer, it wouldn't be a triangle, it would be Sawyer the Stalker.



And did you see the deleted scene, where Sawyer realizes that Kate went out into the jungle on his boar hunt because she wanted to get the gun back for Jack? He didn't see that one coming.

Emphasis on DELETED. There are two reasons to delete a scene - either there's a lack of time, or it doesn't fit with the intent of the story. Seeing as Kate has yet to get one over on Sawyer (he pegged her lying to Jack in WTCMB even), I'm betting it was the latter. And Damon's comment from the article in banshee's post, that "they're cut from the same cloth", would tend to back up that interpretation as well.

Ok, I made it to page 14, and I can't stop giggling. I swear. This stuff gets a little funny after a while.

Lets get it out in the open here. Kate has a thing for both Jack and Sawyer right now. Yes....I said it....both of the men. Now, define "thing." lol

Take a look at the episode people. As some have said before, the episode had a theme. Losing something....finding something. Everybody remember Sun ripping through the garden because she was having an emotional break? Take another look at the scene where Kate is ripping through the letters. Have we made a connection here? Maybe. I think there is a good reason the writers put these scenes in the same episode. Kate was not, and I repeat, not looking for a letter from Jack. lmao I had to get that out of the way.

There is more to Kate then just lies. There is so much more. She is more complicated then most of the character combined. The thing is, the look on her face didn't seem like an act. The girl can only pull off so much.

Why would she have been worried about people getting her letter? Oh no! They might find out she's a fugitive....oh wait...they already did. I think she would have been more worried about the police finding a letter then the rest of the people on the island. If you are going to paint Kate a criminal then you better strike her writing a letter off your list.

I think she was going through those letters looking for something to hold onto. If there was a piece of the man she never got to say goodbye to, then maybe she wouldn't feel so guilty. Sawyer and Kate have something. It's undeniable. The writers have even said it. Maybe it isn't the most "adult" thing in the world, but who are we to say? Some people believe Kate needs to be saved. No. She's a strong woman who has to save herself. Nobody can save her. Not Jack, not Sawyer. (jumpin' topics here...sorry...it's late tehehe)

One more thing: Why do people always say Sawyer is going to bring Kate down? Sawyer gave Kate a chance to free herself. What do I mean by that? Well, they are on equal ground. He excepts her blood on her hands and all. They both live two different lives, and together they could piece themselves into a whole again.

Think of it this way....Alcholics....What do they do? They join a group called AA. There, they use their life experiences to support and guide each other. They have done horrible things in their lives, but they grow together. They hold each other up. Through the thick and thin. That's how I view Skate. They will hold each other up through the thick and thin.

Sometimes you just need somebody who understands you. Evi said it best when she said:
"When she is around Sawyer, suddenly who she is doesn't have to be hidden and I think she's less ashamed of it. I think she is more able to say, "This is who I am. Take it or leave it,buddy!'' That's a real gift. In real life, usually the people we feel the most in love with and attracted to are the people that allow us to be ourselves- faults and all."

Emphasis on DELETED. There are two reasons to delete a scene - either there's a lack of time, or it doesn't fit with the intent of the story. Seeing as Kate has yet to get one over on Sawyer (he pegged her lying to Jack in WTCMB even), I'm betting it was the latter. And Damon's comment from the article in banshee's post, that "they're cut from the same cloth", would tend to back up that interpretation as well.

I don't buy that they cut it because it didn't' fit the intent of the story....not at all. The entire script was written and approved before it was even filmed...it's not like they were editing the tape and said "How did that get in there? That doesn't belong." That just doesn't make sense at all. It was a part of the story, it just didn't make it onto the screen. It would still be in the script though, and the intent would still be the same. I don't think Damon's "cut from the same cloth" comment backs up anything related to the subject of deleted scenes. Not quite making the stretch with you there.

For the record, I don't believe Kate would be looking for something from Jack in the bottle. That doesn't make sense. Nor does it make sense that she would be looking for something from Sawyer in the bottle...he was on the raft, why would he have written a note to someone? And why would he have written a note back to her....would he have known the raft was going to be blown to bits? I still believe Kate may have written something. We know that she had been planning to take on Joanna's identity not long before the notes were written. Maybe she wrote a goodbye to someone at home (there is someone who cares about her, we know that even though we don't know their identity yet), planning to fake her own death somehow if/when rescued. I'm not saying it's absolutely what happened, but there are things that just don't add up. Kate's first words were "where is it?" No one finds that to be a little strange? Belittle other theories and opinions as much as you want, but if you'll search around it seems that there are very few people who believe Kate acted in the way she did because of Sawyer.

Ok, once again. Sun ripping her garden apart...Logical? I think not. Kate, looking for something of Sawyer's....all that logical? No.

People do strange things when they're upset. Read the episode more. It just goes with the theme. Also, somebody said she was only upset for about 10 seconds. When the camera pans away you can tell she is still upset. Is she still going through notes? No. She's looking off to the ocean....the ocean.

Kate being upset over Sawyer fits the episode. I guess we'll have to find that out when we read the notes the writers left over, just like the kiss. I'm fine with waiting. The writers said they would give us a little Sleepless in Seattle, and I trust them. I believe this was it.

I wouldn't say Sun tearing her garden up is all that illogical. Sure she was upset, but she works in that garden a lot and it would make sense that she could have lost the ring there. Comparing that with Kate wanting the bottle seems to be apples & oranges.

Well that's an interesting way of looking at it. So your friend/family member/boyfriend/girlfriend/Significant Other lies to you--you find out about it. You forgive them for that. That's a bad thing? Because that is what you are saying. Because Kate outright lied and tried to manipulate Jack(and she tried to make Sawyer look bad to so I'd remind) and he was upset about it. Totally natural reaction in that situation. Then he went back to treating her as usual and even tried to do something special FOR HER. This is a bad thing? This is a holier than thou thing?
Yes - to all the above - and at no time were there any exchanges where "forgiveness" was begged for, asked for, or granted.
What you described is actually exactly what Jack does with Kate. He treats like usual. He talks to her, he tells her stuff, he gets her opinion, he asks for her help. He never makes a thing about "I forgive you", he just goes back to treating her as usual and his "as usual" with her is way better than she's used to being treated from what I can tell.
The way Jack went back to his "as usual" treatment of Kate is one of the major redeeming qualities I see in that character. Generally he doesn't hold grudges. We know Kate has trust issues - but her character is slowly evolving.
I was happy to see Kate acknowledge her concern about Sawyer - but I didn't take it to mean that she now wants to spend the rest of her life with him or share a tent with him.
I can't imagine what Kate was looking for in the message bottle - unless she somehow thought someone put a message in saying - "yo. we have a fugitive here so please come save us" - I bought that she wanted to hold onto something after finding out she may never see Sawyer again.
The cool thing is how everyone interprets things differently.

I wouldn't say Sun tearing her garden up is all that illogical. Sure she was upset, but she works in that garden a lot and it would make sense that she could have lost the ring there. Comparing that with Kate wanting the bottle seems to be apples & oranges.

Lost is all about connections. For some reason, I just don't think Sun and Kate being together at the end of that episode wasn't on purpose. They are one of the only two women that have a man to lose on that raft. The end, with the music and all, seemed so metaphorical.

hehe...Sun ripping her garden apart logical? I think her searching her garden would have made more sense if she was just looking for her ring. In that scene it was all her emotion coming out. You said she had worked a lot in that garden, meaning she has worked very hard on it. If she was just looking for a ring she wouldn't have ripped it apart. It's like when you're upset and lets say you throw something across the room. It breaks. You didn't throw it across the room meaning to break it. You were upset. That wasn't so logical now was it?

Comparing it to Kate's scene isn't apples and oranges if you look into the Episode's theme. Seeing as themes seem to be important to the writers, it just makes sense that Kate was doing something illogical because she was upset.

Sun had told Kate to stop, and then it hits her. I think she got that it wasn't about the letters, and probably even thought back to her own garden incident. 'Cause let me tell you, that scene had a much deeper meaning then just a ring.

It's been fun guys, but I have to get to bed now. I have a casino to defeat tomorrow. Birthday fun, here I come! lol ;)

Happy Skate or Jate dreams for all. If you don't go with either ship, then happy Lost Dreams!

Sun was frantic, yes...but she was also holding onto a terrible secret that was overloading her senses. Yeah, I still say it's apples and oranges. And even though Kate may care about Sawyer, it is hardly the same situation Sun's in....it's not "her man" out there on the raft as you suggest, for now that's your wishful thinking. (That could absolutely change, we all know well, but for now he is merely her friend). Perhaps the scene would have been more clear if Kate herself had said it was about Sawyer....but she didn't, Sun did. Sun also believes that Kate suggesting poisoning Jin was was only because she was trying to help a friend....but we all know better than that because we know how desperate Kate was to get a seat on the raft. Did Kate correct Sun's incorrect perception of that? No. Most likely the writers wanted there to be controversy as to what was really going on in the bottle scene, and they certainly got it..

I don't buy that they cut it because it didn't' fit the intent of the story....not at all. The entire script was written and approved before it was even filmed...it's not like they were editing the tape and said "How did that get in there? That doesn't belong." That just doesn't make sense at all. It was a part of the story, it just didn't make it onto the screen. It would still be in the script though, and the intent would still be the same.

Au contraire, mon frair. Scripts and footage are constantly edited. Scripts are approved yes, but there still ends up being three different versions of them if not more. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they even show Damon on the DVD extras editing a script, and explaining to us that the process is continuous. So it doesn't matter if a script is approved, it is an ever changing process. And I don't know if you've ever SEEN one of the scripts, but I have five of them, and there are things that are VERY different from what actually made it onscreen.

As for the editing process, it isn't all about hooking scenes together and checking for timing. It's a whole other element of directing, which is why the directors are in the room with the editing tech. It's entirely possible for a director to look at a scene and decide, nah, I think that just doesn't fit right with the story line we're following.

Here's something that might help explain the editing process a bit more. It's a quote from an interview with Peter Webber, director of Girl With A Pearl Earring:

FM: There’s a prolonged sense of anticipation that exists throughout the all the scenes that Greitt and Vermeer share, did you find it difficult to maintain that tension for as long as seemed necessary?

PW: No, I think they difficulty lay in charting the path through that tension that had to start at a certain level and end at a certain level. This meant that in the editing room we had to make a lot of hard decisions about reorganise scenes which we had originally intended a different way. The emotional through line had changed simply by the fact that the relationship was now being filmed. It’s part of my job as director to keep hold of the emotional tone of the piece, sometimes some scenes take on their own life and become something different from what you expect and this can be a very good thing as well. It was something that we were aware of, but what you can’t control is the chemistry, is the chemistry going to work or not; that’s down to what the actors bring to the table.

You see, it IS entirely possible for something already filmed to not sit right with the director, even though it was already included.



Not quite making the stretch with you there.

Sorry your mind isn't that flexible. Though how you can say ripping apart a garden while crying hysterically is a logical way to look for a small ring, maybe it's flexing in a TOTALLY different direction than mine.


For the record, I don't believe Kate would be looking for something from Jack in the bottle. That doesn't make sense. Nor does it make sense that she would be looking for something from Sawyer in the bottle...he was on the raft, why would he have written a note to someone? And why would he have written a note back to her....would he have known the raft was going to be blown to bits?

Okay, I already posted this, but I guess you didn't read it:
I can see how it could be interpreted different ways, but based on what the writers have said, that they'd both be thinking about each other, I took it as her hoping to find some message from Sawyer, some sort of closure he may have written if the raft were in trouble. :(

Again, Kate doesn't know exactly WHAT happened to them. For all she knows, the raft might have been slowly falling apart, or maybe she hoped he had put something in there just in case the something might happen to them on the raft, such as a huge wave toppling it in rough seas - his only chance to say goodbye.



I still believe Kate may have written something. We know that she had been planning to take on Joanna's identity not long before the notes were written. Maybe she wrote a goodbye to someone at home (there is someone who cares about her, we know that even though we don't know their identity yet), planning to fake her own death somehow if/when rescued. I'm not saying it's absolutely what happened, but there are things that just don't add up. Kate's first words were "where is it?" No one finds that to be a little strange?

Again, already answered this, but it needs to be said again apparently:
So let me get this straight, she was trying to retrieve a letter she didn't want anyone to read, that she had slyly put in a bottle that was intended to be given over to authorities for delivery upon the raftees' rescue, or that could be intercepted by anyone and read by any number of people?

Now THAT I would find strange, and more than a little stupid on Kate's part.

tehehe What I meant by man, was simple. The definition of a man. You insinuated the whole boyfriend thing. That's not what I meant, silly. ;) Wishful thinking? I think we both do a little bit of that now don't we?

I'm looking at the theming of the episode. It happened to go in our favor. That will happen every now and then. It's ok.

You can compare caring....Sun and Kate both seem to care for the person each are worried about out on sea. This doesn't mean Kate's going to marry Sawyer, and have millions of babies with him. It just means that she is worried about a "friend" lost at sea. Sun is worried about a husband lost at sea. Both horrible things.

Now, I really have to go to bed.....Lets hope I win some money tomorrow!! Whoow!! Once again, happy Lost dreams. :D

Au contraire, mon frair. Scripts and footage are constantly edited. Scripts are approved yes, but there still ends up being three different versions of them if not more. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they even show Damon on the DVD extras editing a script, and explaining to us that the process is continuous. So it doesn't matter if a script is approved, it is an ever changing process. And I don't know if you've ever SEEN one of the scripts, but I have five of them, and there are things that are VERY different from what actually made it onscreen.

As for the editing process, it isn't all about hooking scenes together and checking for timing. It's a whole other element of directing, which is why the directors are in the room with the editing tech. It's entirely possible for a director to look at a scene and decide, nah, I think that just doesn't fit right with the story line we're following.

Here's something that might help explain the editing process a bit more. It's a quote from an interview with Peter Webber, director of Girl With A Pearl Earring:

FM: There’s a prolonged sense of anticipation that exists throughout the all the scenes that Greitt and Vermeer share, did you find it difficult to maintain that tension for as long as seemed necessary?

PW: No, I think they difficulty lay in charting the path through that tension that had to start at a certain level and end at a certain level. This meant that in the editing room we had to make a lot of hard decisions about reorganise scenes which we had originally intended a different way. The emotional through line had changed simply by the fact that the relationship was now being filmed. It’s part of my job as director to keep hold of the emotional tone of the piece, sometimes some scenes take on their own life and become something different from what you expect and this can be a very good thing as well. It was something that we were aware of, but what you can’t control is the chemistry, is the chemistry going to work or not; that’s down to what the actors bring to the table.

You see, it IS entirely possible for something already filmed to not sit right with the director, even though it was already included.



Sorry your mind isn't that flexible. Though how you can say ripping apart a garden while crying hysterically is a logical way to look for a small ring, maybe it's flexing in a TOTALLY different direction than mine.


Okay, I already posted this, but I guess you didn't read it:
I can see how it could be interpreted different ways, but based on what the writers have said, that they'd both be thinking about each other, I took it as her hoping to find some message from Sawyer, some sort of closure he may have written if the raft were in trouble. :(

Again, Kate doesn't know exactly WHAT happened to them. For all she knows, the raft might have been slowly falling apart, or maybe she hoped he had put something in there just in case the something might happen to them on the raft, such as a huge wave toppling it in rough seas - his only chance to say goodbye.



Again, already answered this, but it needs to be said again apparently:
So let me get this straight, she was trying to retrieve a letter she didn't want anyone to read, that she had slyly put in a bottle that was intended to be given over to authorities for delivery upon the raftees' rescue, or that could be intercepted by anyone and read by any number of people?

Now THAT I would find strange, and more than a little stupid on Kate's part.


Actually, no need for you to keep repeating yourself for my benefit....I read it, I was just reitterating that I don't agree.

And actually, my mind is quite flexible, that's why I'm asserting that there are multiple interpretations...I'm not set into one. I'm also not taking great leaps of logic.

I also understand quite well how the editing process works, so no need for you to tutor me, thanks all the same. I've read scripts also. I would just offer that saying only your way of thinking is the right one shows that perhaps it's your mind that is lacking in that 'flexibility' you mentioned.

tehehe What I meant by man, was simple. The definition of a man. You insinuated the whole boyfriend thing. That's not what I meant, silly. ;) Wishful thinking? I think we both do a little bit of that now don't we?

I'm looking at the theming of the episode. It happened to go in our favor. That will happen every now and then. It's ok.

You can compare caring....Sun and Kate both seem to care for the person each are worried about out on sea. This doesn't mean Kate's going to marry Sawyer, and have millions of babies with him. It just means that she is worried about a "friend" lost at sea. Sun is worried about a husband lost at sea. Both horrible things.

Now, I really have to go to bed.....Lets hope I win some money tomorrow!! Whoow!! Once again, happy Lost dreams. :D

Okay, I don't know if I could buy into the 'theme of the episode' being that significant. Sometimes things happen in an episode that aren't entirely related to theme, but rather to set up something down the road.

I agree, you can compare caring...on that point we're the same. I just have a lot of questions as to some of Kate's behavior in this scene. Things that don't add up. I certainly hope it is cleared up down the road, but it just doesn't seem that clear and simple at the moment.

Good luck at the casino.

Actually, no need for you to keep repeating yourself for my benefit....I read it, I was just reitterating that I don't agree.

Excellent! Then we shall agree to disagree.


I'm also not taking great leaps of logic.

That too, is open to multiple interpretations. As is your interpretation that Tarrish's opinion is "wishful thinking". :)


I also understand quite well how the editing process works, so no need for you to tutor me, thanks all the same. I've read scripts also.

I apologize. I did not get that impression from your statements.


I would just offer that saying only your way of thinking is the right one shows that perhaps it's your mind that is lacking in that 'flexibility' you mentioned.
Hmm, I hope I'm not saying mine is the "right" way, my intent was to offer my 'interpretation' as you say. Care to show me where I said only my way of thinking was right so that so I can rectify it? Thanks. :)

I couldn't go to bed feeling the tension in the room.

I understand how you are looking from two prespectives. Kate's character can make a person do that. I think we just need to watch other episodes, and see what happens. It just seems that the writers set up this special scene between Sun and Kate. It just seemed to be more there then Kate doing her "regular" criminal acts.

Maybe I'm totally off, but that is what's so great about Lost. You can be totally off at every moment. You just have to complete the puzzle to see what is right and what isn't.

It sure is one big puzzle.

Thanks for the good luck. I'll need it.

I'm really going to bed now. **pulls self away from the fuse** It's so hard leaving this webpage sometimes. :D

Care to show me where I said only my way of thinking was right so that so I can rectify it?

"Okay, I already posted this, but I guess you didn't read it:"

That does seem to sound a little like you're saying you are right and I made the mistake of 'not getting it'?

I could say more but I think you're right, we should agree to disagree because it's unlikely this is going to go anywhere constructive.

:ohwell:

Tarrish, get some sleep...you need to rest before breaking the banks at the casino, don't gamble when exhausted.

"Okay, I already posted this, but I guess you didn't read it:"

That does seem to sound a little like you're saying you are right and I made the mistake of 'not getting it'?
Not meant in a "not getting it" kind of way. If I thought you didn't get it, it would be pointless to post it a second time. I assumed you skimmed through some of the posts, as I did, since there were so many not on the SK topic. :)

No offense intended, just a little frustrating having to repeat myself so often. Seems like it's pointless to post sometimes.

So we shall agree to disagree, and respect each other's right to post their own interpretations, which are, as always since this is a message board, open to debate. :)

Not meant in a "not getting it" kind of way. If I thought you didn't get it, it would be pointless to post it a second time. I assumed you skimmed through some of the posts, as I did, since there were so many not on the SK topic. :)

No offense intended, just a little frustrating having to repeat myself so often. Seems like it's pointless to post sometimes.

So we shall agree to disagree, and respect each other's right to post their own interpretations, which are, as always since this is a message board, open to debate. :)

I do apologize for my part in taking this off the S/K topic. I would wager that not many Jaters would have entered into the conversation here had there not been a shot taken at J/K that got the ball rolling....it took on a life of it's own from there.

I do entertain several interpretations of what happened, and some are possibly very similar to your own, but I have questions I need answered before I make up my mind. It's the law school flashbacks, I read the case and then figure out what the points of law are. There are a lot of loose ends from that scene. And with this show it really doesn't help to make assumptions, because the moment they think you're anticipating going right they are going to take a sharp left. I really believe the writers wanted there to be controversy, otherwise things could have been presented much more clearly.

Sun was frantic, yes...but she was also holding onto a terrible secret that was overloading her senses. Yeah, I still say it's apples and oranges. And even though Kate may care about Sawyer, it is hardly the same situation Sun's in....it's not "her man" out there on the raft as you suggest, for now that's your wishful thinking. (That could absolutely change, we all know well, but for now he is merely her friend). Perhaps the scene would have been more clear if Kate herself had said it was about Sawyer....but she didn't, Sun did. Sun also believes that Kate suggesting poisoning Jin was was only because she was trying to help a friend....but we all know better than that because we know how desperate Kate was to get a seat on the raft. Did Kate correct Sun's incorrect perception of that? No. Most likely the writers wanted there to be controversy as to what was really going on in the bottle scene, and they certainly got it..

Wow...I missed some fun last night! LOL ;)

Okay...just a comment on the Sun/Kate comparison. I also think that Kate tearing through the bottle was a parallel to Sun ripping apart her garden. Sun's destruction of that STARTED as a logical move. She wanted to find her ring...but very early on she started to get angry and frustrated because of how overwhelming the entire thing was. It wasn't about her ring anymore...she was taking her frustration out of something physical because she may have lost her husband. It was never really about the ring...Sun was upset because she doesn't know if Jin is alive or dead.

Now obviously it's not the exact same thing with Kate because Sawyer is not her husband or her boyfriend. He's just someone she connected with...someone who she had the POSSIBILITY of finding 'more' with. So that's why her tearing through the bottle was on a smaller scale. But I believe it WAS a similar action. Kate was worried and upset because at the least she thought her friend might be dead...and she'd never said goodybe to him. She was tearing through the bottle looking for SOMEthing that would explain it all...or something physical to just hold on.

Clearly there are very different scales here...but that's what I thought made the parallel so powerful. You have one woman who just lost her husband...someone she had shared her life with. She doesn't want to lose what she HAD. Then you have another woman who thinks she lost someone she connected with, but didn't really get to share much time with. She is upset because she lost the possibility of something she COULD have had.

Now this doesn't mean I'm saying that Kate was in love with Sawyer, but it's often not until you think you've lost something...that you start to wonder if there was the possibility it could have meant something more to you. Kate knew Sawyer was leaving on the raft, and she knew she'd probably never see him again...and although that bothered her a little (hence the looking for him in Exodus)...it's not the same as thinking someone is dead. That just makes it all the more real. And it's natural for anyone to be upset that they never explored the full possibility of any type of relationship with someone while they were still alive.

I think the scene, if taken straightforward, fits perfectly into the theme of the episode because although they are coming from very different places...Sun and Kate WERE nicely paralleled in that scene in my opinion :)

Just commenting on Deleted Scenes and their significance now:

I agree to a certain extent with TRoss that if a scene is deleted it's for a reason. The producers have the final say in how a show is shot and edited. If a scene ends up on the cutting room floor, it's because they didn't think it was necessary to tell the story. So technically it no longer exists in the chronology of the show. I'm not suggesting that some of intentions or emotions expressed in those scenes aren't really true to the characters...or indicitive of their mindset at that point in the story...but they never showed up on screen. So as far as the audience is concerned...they really never took place :ohwell:

And as for the scene where Sawyer realizes Kate wants the gun. I don't think she really manipulated him there. Because nothing in that scene changes the fact that she didn't go on that hunt just for the gun. She admitted in "I never" that she went because she wanted to spend time with someone who understood her. That WAS included on air. And the writer's included in their notes that "He NAILED her" with that statement. She wasn't playing him the whole time....he was just irritated that she also wanted the gun back for Jack. But again, since the scene was never aired...the producers may have decided they didn't want that scene to take place anymore. For whatever reason.

Damon said at one point that it's only what happens on-air that can be considered part of the chronology of the story. We don't know WHY deleted scenes were deleted....and while they are fun to watch...they're not part of the finished story that the Lost producers ended up telling.

QE....I think I'd have to respectfully disagree that it can't be considered because it was deleted. There has to be some reason it was chosen to be on the dvd. If a scene is selected to be put out for public consumption, then I have to believe it's something that they believe we should have seen....otherwise I'm certain there are tons of other deleted scenes they could have chosen that wouldn't have had the potential to shine the light on a different perspective.

It's just like the scenes they sometimes air on Good Morning America the day after the show airs....they actually have said that those are scenes the producers wanted us to see but didn't have time to show. And as I recall Outlaws ran over the normal time anyway, so they had to trim everywhere they could to make it fit.

Anyone that doesn't want to believe it is free to hold that opinion, but if I can pop it in my dvd player and cue it up anytime I want....I'd say it exists.

And did you see the deleted scene, where Sawyer realizes that Kate went out into the jungle on his boar hunt because she wanted to get the gun back for Jack? He didn't see that one coming.

Personally, I think Jack did know Kate was behind the poisoning. He suspected her immediately, and she didn't respond when he asked her. He actually reads her pretty well. I recall that when she wanted him to help her dig up the marshal, he knew immediately there was more to it, and he caught her in the act.

I wouldn't say Kate was 'in control' in the shower scene...not at all! She was a nervous wreck until she managed to gain composure as she was headed out the door. The girl couldn't hold onto her bra for goodness sakes.

The key word being DELETED..For what ever reason that scene wasnt shown on screen........And even if it was added..it wouldnt have bothered me..Skate didnt start out as the preordained couple..not everythign was set up to make sure we seen them as the ROOT FOR couple..The beauty of Skate is in their transformation right in front of our eyes....It wasnt planned..but it couldnt be denied either

And as about Jack knowing that Kate was behind theh poisoning..You can make up anything you want to fit your needs..but that doesnt make it true on scree..The scene I recall was Kate giving Jack a line of bull..and him falling for it.....Just like I couldnt deny the Jate shower scene..it was there..and I know it was meant as a flirty moment for Jate..That I cant deny....So I seen it the same way Jaters did..The only difference would be that I seen no chemistry between the actors/characters

Emphasis on DELETED. There are two reasons to delete a scene - either there's a lack of time, or it doesn't fit with the intent of the story. Seeing as Kate has yet to get one over on Sawyer (he pegged her lying to Jack in WTCMB even), I'm betting it was the latter. And Damon's comment from the article in banshee's post, that "they're cut from the same cloth", would tend to back up that interpretation as well.

Again Skate minds think alike....I also pointed out the DELETED part as well...lol

The key word being DELETED..For what ever reason that scene wasnt shown on screen........And even if it was added..it wouldnt have bothered me..Skate didnt start out as the preordained couple..not everythign was set up to make sure we seen them as the ROOT FOR couple..The beauty of Skate is in their transformation right in front of our eyes....It wasnt planned..but it couldnt be denied either

And as about Jack knowing that Kate was behind theh poisoning..You can make up anything you want to fit your needs..but that doesnt make it true on scree..The scene I recall was Kate giving Jack a line of bull..and him falling for it.....Just like I couldnt deny the Jate shower scene..it was there..and I know it was meant as a flirty moment for Jate..That I cant deny....So I seen it the same way Jaters did..The only difference would be that I seen no chemistry between the actors/characters

I didn't see Jack falling for anything, actually, that's why Kate made a hasty retreat.....you feel free to make up what you wish to fit your needs too. :rolleyes: Works both ways sweetie.

I think we've discussed the deleted scene thing to death here...again, I feel that if they put it out there for us to see, they had some reasoning for wanting us to see it. Believe it or don't, makes no matter.

For what it's worth...you don't see chemistry between J/K, and I'm appalled at what is viewed as chemistry between K/S. To each their own.

Okay can we quit with the Jack/Kate stuff on this thread? I think this thread was here for people to talk about the current developments of SAWYER/Kate thanks to that awesome scene between Kate and Sun. I'm not saying people can't offer interpretations of the scene of the episode but please why go on about chemistry/or lack thereof and extol or discredit other scenes when it's frankly irrelevant to this particular scene and the episode in question? We are getting into 'my ship is better' territory. Why can't those of us who support Kate/Sawyer have our moment to discuss these developments positively and with enthusiasm? Clearly Kate has finally indicated to someone (Sun) that she does have feelings for Sawyer and regrets not getting the chance to say goodbye. This is exactly what the producers/writers were hinting at, and it's wonderful that Kate and Sawyer don't have to be in the same scene together but still the connection they have is brought into the spotlight, however brief.

Agreed!

Okay can we quit with the Jack/Kate stuff on this thread? I think this thread was here for people to talk about the current developments of SAWYER/Kate thanks to that awesome scene between Kate and Sun. I'm not saying people can't offer interpretations of the scene of the episode but please why go on about chemistry/or lack thereof and extol or discredit other scenes when it's frankly irrelevant to this particular scene and the episode in question? We are getting into 'my ship is better' territory. Why can't those of us who support Kate/Sawyer have our moment to discuss these developments positively and with enthusiasm? Clearly Kate has finally indicated to someone (Sun) that she does have feelings for Sawyer and regrets not getting the chance to say goodbye. This is exactly what the producers/writers were hinting at, and it's wonderful that Kate and Sawyer don't have to be in the same scene together but still the connection they have is brought into the spotlight, however brief.

If someone hadn't felt the need to say this: Jack he acts holier than thou and makes her ashamed of herself. then the Jack/Kate stuff wouldn't really have come into it. KNJ made a mention but that was going off into something else when someone felt the need to disparage Jack and naturally people came to defend that. This isn't in the ship section it's in the episode section so that's what happens.

It's just that I saw a thread about Kate/Sawyer and then found it was mostly about Jack needing to be defended and talk about Jack and Kate versus Skate.

Now I'm actually all for both sides (soon to be a third and fourth perhaps when Ana gets added to the mix) trying to be more sensitive and not jumping all over each other regarding ship preferences. So....

Let's just take a breath and chill.

this thread is both slightly disturbing and utterly fascinating.

The whole storyline about Sawyer and Kate, from the kiss, then the I never game, their fight just before their separation and their never getting to say goodbyes but were still looking for each other at the raft were all setup to lead to the latest development. The whole thing about Kate flirting a little with Jack, and Sawyer and Ana meeting up is to detract the viewers a little. Then Kate just admitted to Sun she had feelings for Sawyer.

The writes/producers are great story tellers and they know just the right amount of tension to to bring on the drama of a love relationship between 2 people. Why else would they delay their reuion to 8 episodes. To make their reuion more longing and sweet. So I think Sawyer and Kate are definitely going to fall in love.

So bring it on.

It's just that I saw a thread about Kate/Sawyer and then found it was mostly about Jack needing to be defended and talk about Jack and Kate versus Skate.

Now I'm actually all for both sides (soon to be a third and fourth perhaps when Ana gets added to the mix) trying to be more sensitive and not jumping all over each other regarding ship preferences. So....

Let's just take a breath and chill.

I agree about the topic & stated as such back a little further...It's to be expected though whenever Jack and Kate are brought into question, or KS/any other respective ship, especially negatively, regardless of thread topic ppl will respond in rebuttal as this is open forum and not ship threads.... I have no idea what happened since I was last here lol, but things had returned to the original intention of the thread after claims about JK were responded to.

Posts shouldn't have to resort to condescending tone, personal attacks, or passive aggressive digs at each others ships in order to prove pnts. So it's in each person's responsibility to keep the thread on topic and within a constructive range.

This thread has gotten interesting! My two cents...

I thought it was a great scene! It showed that Kate cares about Sawyer, IMO nothing we saw made it seem like it was more than a concern for a friend, but again my opinion. As for Kate possibly being manipulative....personally I dont think we can rule that out yet. She did seem overly concerned about the bottle and frantically searching through the messages. Now sure she could have been really upset about the fate of the raft people but to me she seemed to recover pretty quickly. I'm sure we'll see soon enough, but again I liked seeing Kate's concern for Sawyer. It showed that they did form a friendship on the island

This thread has gotten interesting! My two cents...
I'm sure we'll see soon enough, but again I liked seeing Kate's concern for Sawyer. It showed that they did form a friendship on the island
I'd say they did form more than a friendship there. We will see in 4 weeks.

Besides, I don`t necessarily believe into a pairing of Kate&Sawyer. Though I don`t like Ana-Lucia, lets say intense as her relationship with Sawyer has been so far, I wouldn`t be surprised, if their antipation would turn into - knowing both - more animalic passion, at some point...

L&P
Grisu

Wow I cant beleive we almost have 20 pages already of chatting about Sawyer & Kate vs. Jack & Kate, with a little AL mixed in, lol. The writers really know what they are doing :D....

Don't you mean Jack & Kate with a little Sawyer mixed in?

Don't you mean Jack & Kate with a little Sawyer mixed in?

As has been mentioned, it is not the intention of anyone to keep the Jack and Kate topic going in here....I myself apologized for it yesterday and the reasons for it were explained by several people, yet a few more digs were taken afterwards, so I had to respond again (as at least a couple were directed at me personally...can't you just feel the love in this room?).

If people wouldn't make passive aggressive comments, I'm sure it would die down. There seems to be at least a couple of people though who don't seem to want it to end....

As was mentioned before...this isn't in the ship section, so if something is said that is highly debatable it's likely someone will do just that. Debates wouldn't happen if someone didn't 'go there' in the first place.

I agree about the topic & stated as such back a little further...It's to be expected though whenever Jack and Kate are brought into question, or KS/any other respective ship, especially negatively, regardless of thread topic ppl will respond in rebuttal as this is open forum and not ship threads.... I have no idea what happened since I was last here lol, but things had returned to the original intention of the thread after claims about JK were responded to.

Posts shouldn't have to resort to condescending tone, personal attacks, or passive aggressive digs at each others ships in order to prove pnts. So it's in each person's responsibility to keep the thread on topic and within a constructive range.

Jack/Kate was brought into this thread on page 2. And clearly not by someone who was bringing that ship into question.
Kate and Jack will definately end up together you can tell the way it's playing out. Just like when Jack was stuck in the caves, man Kate ran right after him. Remember she CHOSE to not say goodbye to sawyer, sure didn't seem that important then. I think she "felt bad" that she didn't say goodbye because he was her friend, but nah Sawyer's hit on her enough and she still follows Jack. I think that Kate and sawyer will be together this season for character development only. He does nothing for her character and she does nothing for his. The would not change or grow with eachother. Also I don't think Kate was looking for anything from Sawyer in that bottle, I think she was lying. Perhaps Kate did put a message in the bottle, but maybe it wasen't really for anyone. Maybe she was letting go of what she did, who knows, but I don't think that scene was as clear as some would like to think it was.
There had been no mention of Jack (negatively or positively) prior to this post.

As you can plainly see, the negative assertions which required defense were made about Sawyer/Kate.

I went to the Jack/Kate thread in the EHH forum and I found it facinating that the alleged "defense" of J/K in this thread has apparently required more posts than an entire thread supporting J/K. (a thread, which I might add, was not hijacked)

Jack/Kate thread (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=22398)

Jack/Kate was brought into this thread on page 2. And clearly not by someone who was bringing that ship into question.

There had been no mention of Jack (negatively or positively) prior to this post.

As you can plainly see, the negative assertions which required defense were made about Sawyer/Kate.

I went to the Jack/Kate thread in the EHH forum and I found it facinating that the alleged "defense" of J/K in this thread has apparently required more posts than an entire thread supporting J/K. (a thread, which I might add, was not hijacked)

Jack/Kate thread (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=22398)

Okay...I haven't even been to that J/K thread, because my computer time has been limited and most days I don't cruise around browsing. Thanks for the link though, now I know it's there. I found this thread because when I did sign on it was listed in the 'new posts' folder. The first post I saw was one taking a huge dig at Jack...very derogatory, and very uncalled for. The post you refer to that started the talk of J/K here was not made to start an argument, the person explained themselves. It was someone stating an opinion, in a section of the board that IS NOT listed as just for ships I might remind, so opinions are not forbidden, and any tension it may have created seemed to have passed already before things turned nasty.....it's when things escalate to cheap shots that you're going to get a lot more people involved...as that is what brought me here, and I'm sure others probably joined in for the same reason. If people could express their opinions without taking digs, it wouldn't get out of hand. People keep trying to let it die, but others persist in bringing it up time and again (such as yourself). If you don't like it...get back to your topic and stop harping on it, then it will die.


ETA: Okay, I looked at that J/K thread, and actually there were a couple of dissenting voices posted there, at least one or two skaters. Difference is, no one took cheap shots. I'm sure if a very derogatory Sawyer post had been made in there, it would have been 'hijacked'.

it is absurd listening to this, you guys are spending more time on who said,did, what than actually talking about the show. Get your egos in check and lets get back to talking about the show.

As was mentioned we keep reaching agreements & more things are said so it's only fair ppl can respond to represent themselves. I'm personally being accused of derailing the thread so should have an opportunity to set the record straight.

Jack/Kate was brought into this thread on page 2. And clearly not by someone who was bringing that ship into question.

There had been no mention of Jack (negatively or positively) prior to this post.



this is the reason I participated on this thread & responded:

It is becoming more and more obvious every episode that Kate and Sawyer are meant for each other storyline wise. The only person either one can rely on is the other (some gratitude Michael has, huh?) and the only person either one can fully open up to is each other. No one else takes Sawyer seriously and anytime Kate opens up to Jack he acts holier than thou and makes her ashamed of herself. Of course, she could always go for someone who is afraid of her like Hurley is.

that is a negative opinion on Jack's character & an undermining of JK that I disagreed with.

I went to the Jack/Kate thread in the EHH forum and I found it facinating that the alleged "defense" of J/K in this thread has apparently required more posts than an entire thread supporting J/K. (a thread, which I might add, was not hijacked)

Well you can up that to at least 2 cause I think those two have zero chemistry together (re:JK on the EHH thread) & I thought Kate loved Sawyer. There was nothing on that thread to defend KS wise. I did make a comparison about Kate/Sawyer being moral counterparts because someone said Kate had a bad heart, but it was in fact of what they had each done. If ppl would have disagreed & responded I wouldn't have thought anything of it because it is open forum. And were ppl questioning Sawyer's validity for Kate or KS as a pairing on the thread, again I wouldn't have been surprised nor begrudged folks the need to rebut. I would have expected it actually.

Many ppl both JKers/KSers have replied here and said let's consider this water under the bridge.

Okay...I've stayed out of anything relating to Jack on this thread at all...but I just have something to say about the direction this thread took.

I am NOT trying to point fingers or blame anybody. I'm not angry at anyone, or angry in general....but I confess that I was a little disheartened that the thread had to turn into a defense of Jack and Kate, when it was supposed to be about Sawyer/Kate.

I'm not denying that IN the discussion about Sawyer and Kate, there were things said by people about J/K that may not have been flattering, or even relevant to the discussion at hand.

BUT my question is (and again this is not intended at an attack...I'm coming at this from a very calm and friendly angle) why does that mean that Jack and Kate fans HAVE to respond to those negative comments? Obviously you don't agree with them, but is it necessary to show up in a thread that is supposed to be about Sawyer/Kate and the bottle scene in some capacity and defend Jack and Kate?

Just because someone makes an offhand comment about J/K, it doesn't mean that it needs to be adressed by people who love them. If it's in a thread related to them or to relationships in general, etc...then it makes perfect sense to me. But if the subject of a thread is about S/K and someone takes a cheap shot at J/K in the thread...wouldn't it make more sense just to shrug it off and let it go?

Because when you feel the need to defend J/K EVERY time someone makes a less than polite comment about them, it changes the direction of those discussions, and essentially DOES hijjack the thread :ohwell:

And I'm not saying that Skaters are never guilty of this...they have been, I've seen it. Often times it's hard to just grin and bear it when you see a comment (no matter how offhand or unrelated to the discussion) that you disagree with.

But my philosophy is that I'm not out to defend Skate every time someone makes a comment about them. I'll argue 'till I'm blue in the face in a relationship thread...or in a thread like this where the subject is Sawyer and Kate. But I wouldn't go into a J/K thread if I saw someone insult Skate (and believe me it's happened there...same as it did with J/K here). It's just not the time or the place for that discussion in my opinion. Because any comments made are just offhand comments by people who are arguing for Jack and Kate or discussing them, and I'm not about to go in there and rebutt anything they say about Skate in the process. If I see something I don't like....I still don't agree with it, but I don't get involved.

I don't think it's necessary or productive for EITHER ship to come into an unrelated discussion, to rebutt offand remarks (even if they're negative).

That would be like going into a thread about Hurley's behaviour, where someone said "at least he's not as annoying as Charlie", and making the thread into an avid defense of Charlie's good characteristics. That's just another discussion for another time. Making small reference to the comment in the context of the larger discussion might be okay, but launching a full fledged debate about it takes away from the intention of the thread.

Am I making any sense at all? :ohwell: . I mean, again, there is no anger or accusation involved in anything I'm saying. I completely understand the urge to defend something you believe in. But I think it would be far less frustrating for BOTH sides if people were able to let offhand negative comments go...if it's in an unrelated thread. If the comment really bothers you, start a thread called "Jack is not holier than though" and go to town. That would make perfect sense to me and you'd be more than justified in doing it! :)

Okay...I've stayed out of anything relating to Jack on this thread at all...but I just have something to say about the direction this thread took.

I am NOT trying to point fingers or blame anybody. I'm not angry at anyone, or angry in general....but I confess that I was a little disheartened that the thread had to turn into a defense of Jack and Kate, when it was supposed to be about Sawyer/Kate.

I'm not denying that IN the discussion about Sawyer and Kate, there were things said by people about J/K that may not have been flattering, or even relevant to the discussion at hand.

BUT my question is (and again this is not intended at an attack...I'm coming at this from a very calm and friendly angle) why does that mean that Jack and Kate fans HAVE to respond to those negative comments? Obviously you don't agree with them, but is it necessary to show up in a thread that is supposed to be about Sawyer/Kate and the bottle scene in some capacity and defend Jack and Kate?

Just because someone makes an offhand comment about J/K, it doesn't mean that it needs to be adressed by people who love them. If it's in a thread related to them or to relationships in general, etc...then it makes perfect sense to me. But if the subject of a thread is about S/K and someone takes a cheap shot at J/K in the thread...wouldn't it make more sense just to shrug it off and let it go?

Because when you feel the need to defend J/K EVERY time someone makes a less than polite comment about them, it changes the direction of those discussions, and essentially DOES hijjack the thread :ohwell:

And I'm not saying that Skaters are never guilty of this...they have been, I've seen it. Often times it's hard to just grin and bear it when you see a comment (no matter how offhand or unrelated to the discussion) that you disagree with.

But my philosophy is that I'm not out to defend Skate every time someone makes a comment about them. I'll argue 'till I'm blue in the face in a relationship thread...or in a thread like this where the subject is Sawyer and Kate. But I wouldn't go into a J/K thread if I saw someone insult Skate (and believe me it's happened there...same as it did with J/K here). It's just not the time or the place for that discussion in my opinion. Because any comments made are just offhand comments by people who are arguing for Jack and Kate or discussing them, and I'm not about to go in there and rebutt anything they say about Skate in the process. If I see something I don't like....I still don't agree with it, but I don't get involved.

I don't think it's necessary or productive for EITHER ship to come into an unrelated discussion, to rebutt offand remarks (even if they're negative).

That would be like going into a thread about Hurley's behaviour, where someone said "at least he's not as annoying as Charlie", and making the thread into an avid defense of Charlie's good characteristics. That's just another discussion for another time. Making small reference to the comment in the context of the larger discussion might be okay, but launching a full fledged debate about it takes away from the intention of the thread.

Am I making any sense at all? :ohwell: . I mean, again, there is no anger or accusation involved in anything I'm saying. I completely understand the urge to defend something you believe in. But I think it would be far less frustrating for BOTH sides if people were able to let offhand negative comments go...if it's in an unrelated thread. If the comment really bothers you, start a thread called "Jack is not holier than though" and go to town. That would make perfect sense to me and you'd be more than justified in doing it! :)

QE....again, this IS NOT a ship section. People are free to post their thoughts and opinions...all people, not just the ones who agree. If you want to chat with opposing views not imposing on your party, perhaps your ship thread would be a more appropriate place. Why start another thread to disagree with a statement made in a thread out on the open board? Chances are the person you are disagreeing with would never even see it. I have seen you reply in threads that were not Sawyer topics before to defend Sawyer, so what you suggest is not something you necessarily practice yourself. You say you are not blaming anyone, but a paragraph later you comment specifically to those who came in to dispute derogatory statements about Jack and J/K. How many people in this thread have just let it lie after we had come to amicable agreements to move on? If you want to point fingers and ask "Why couldn't you have done it this way?", then don't just point your fingers at one group. How many times must I say this....if you don't like the disagreements and arguing about it....move on with your topic and stop bringing it up, and it will disappear. Continuing to harp on it just keeps it alive, when you really would probably be happier back on your topic.

I haven't gotten involved in this argument at all actually...The only time I've posted in this thread was to discuss Kate's motivations with the bottle, since that was the intention of this thread.

And I'm not saying that people have to agree on everything. This has nothing to do with Ship issues really. It's about taking a discussion in a totally different direction because of an offhand comment. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing, it's about needing to defend every offhand comment made about a ship OR a character, or anything really. It's one thing to get actively involved in an argument...I love to argue, but it's another to change the direction of an argument completely. It's not about being allowed to disagree, it's about the need to point out every comment someone makes that you don't like (not YOU...anybody), when it's a seperate issue. I think my Hurley/Charlie example was pretty clear.

I wasn't pointing the finger at one group. I said in my post that Skaters have been guilty of it as well! In this particular instance the topic was switched to Jack and Kate...so that's obviously what I'm focusing on, but I made a point of saying that every group does it and I just don't see why.

And I made no remarks about Jack and Kate in this thead...I make a conscious effort not to when it's not related to the discussion.

And I actually don't go into non-Sawyer related threads just to defend him. I will mention a comment if I'm already involved in a larger discussion. But I GENERALLY don't go into a thread and switch the subject over to Sawyer, if it wasn't already about that. I'm sure I've done it inadvertantly at least once...everyone makes mistakes...

Why start another thread to disagree with a statement made in a thread out on the open board? Chances are the person you are disagreeing with would never even see it.

So what though? I guess I just don't understand why everytime a comment is made that someone disagrees with, they feel they HAVE to make sure the person knows they disagree. Even if it's not at all related to the thread. And, again, it's not just you or other J/K fans. I'm just frustrated in general with topics that go waaay off their intended discussion points because of off-hand comments.

If you want to chat with opposing views not imposing on your party, perhaps your ship thread would be a more appropriate place.

I WAS chatting with people who had opposing views. I was having a debate with many people about Kate's intentions with the bottle...what her real motivation was. I was making points...they were making points....It was about Kate and the bottle, and if she was really upset about Sawyer, or if it was something else. There were many different views on this thread.

You yourself contributed your thoughts on Kate's motivations...quite eloquently :)

But that was the debate that went along with the thread topic.

How Jack treats Kate...is a complete seperate issue. I understand that there were some comments made which were cheap shots...none by me, but I acknowledge they existed. But they weren't reall relevant to the bottle debate.

I ignored the subsequent Jack/Kate debate and continued to discuss Kate and the bottle scene. But it kept continuing...and it was disheartening to see the thread going so off topic.

I stated before that I'm not pointing fingers...I'm not angry in the slightest...I just think that there's a way to avoid threads going really off topic and it involves keeping the debate focused on the main subject.

Banshee,

Your position is that you were obliged to jump into the fray because of the negative Jate comment in the below quote. I fully understand your reaction, and if this comment had come out of the blue as a sudden unprovoked attack on Jack, I would believe you were completely justified.

However ... the below comment ...

It is becoming more and more obvious every episode that Kate and Sawyer are meant for each other storyline wise. The only person either one can rely on is the other (some gratitude Michael has, huh?) and the only person either one can fully open up to is each other. No one else takes Sawyer seriously and anytime Kate opens up to Jack he acts holier than thou and makes her ashamed of herself. Of course, she could always go for someone who is afraid of her like Hurley is.

... was in reaction to an exchange which began with this quote from KNJ (who is a Jate shipper, is she not?).

Kate and Jack will definately end up together you can tell the way it's playing out. Just like when Jack was stuck in the caves, man Kate ran right after him. Remember she CHOSE to not say goodbye to sawyer, sure didn't seem that important then. I think she "felt bad" that she didn't say goodbye because he was her friend, but nah Sawyer's hit on her enough and she still follows Jack. I think that Kate and sawyer will be together this season for character development only. He does nothing for her character and she does nothing for his. The would not change or grow with eachother. Also I don't think Kate was looking for anything from Sawyer in that bottle, I think she was lying. Perhaps Kate did put a message in the bottle, but maybe it wasen't really for anyone. Maybe she was letting go of what she did, who knows, but I don't think that scene was as clear as some would like to think it was.

My point is ... had the original offending poster not chosen to begin her post as follows ...

Kate and Jack will definately end up together you can tell the way it's playing out. Just like when Jack was stuck in the caves, man Kate ran right after him.

... then chances are, this thread would have never taken the turn it took.

Since Lost is a character driven show, I don't suppose there really is any way to avoid these little tiffs, since there are few aspects of the show (since it is so intertwined) which can be discussed without discussing character interactions.

What caused me to bring this issue back up, was the posts attempting to make it seem that the problems in this thread were instigated by Skaters talking trash about Jate, when in fact it was a Jater who threw the first salvo.

I haven't gotten involved in this argument at all actually...The only time I've posted in this thread was to discuss Kate's motivations with the bottle, since that was the intention of this thread.

Actually, that's not true, you contributed to the disagreements yesterday in regards to the deleted scene.


It's about taking a discussion in a totally different direction because of an offhand comment. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing, it's about needing to defend every offhand comment made about a ship OR a character, or anything really.

.....Or cheap shots taken at any one person or group personally. You don't think people should be able to represent themselves? The cheap shots and passive aggressive comments weren't all directed at Jack or J/K. :rolleyes:

It's one thing to get actively involved in an argument...I love to argue, but it's another to change the direction of an argument completely.

Like making derogatory comments about Jack in a thread about Sawyer and Kate?

It's not about being allowed to disagree, it's about the need to point out every comment someone makes that you don't like (not YOU...anybody), when it's a seperate issue. I think my Hurley/Charlie example was pretty clear.
Oh, there were a lot of comments that got dropped and not discussed further because bigger ones came along.

I wasn't pointing the finger at one group.
"why does that mean that Jack and Kate fans HAVE to respond to those negative comments? Obviously you don't agree with them, but is it necessary to show up in a thread that is supposed to be about Sawyer/Kate and the bottle scene in some capacity and defend Jack and Kate?"

Not pointing a finger? Those words kind of sound like you were.


I said in my post that Skaters have been guilty of it as well! In this particular instance the topic was switched to Jack and Kate...so that's obviously what I'm focusing on, but I made a point of saying that every group does it and I just don't see why.

Again, I have seen you do it...so pose the question to yourself as well. Right now the topic here seems to be "Why can't we just move on?"

And I made no remarks about Jack and Kate in this thead...I make a conscious effort not to when it's not related to the discussion.

Never said you did. It started out with a couple of comments, disagreements were posted, and it would have been left alone except that everyone seems to want to get their two cents in also, and some like to make personal attacks when doing so. If I defend myself to a dig taken at me, why ask me why I defend myself? Aren't the person's who made the comments that started it at least as culpable of those who spoke in defense? Your commentary doesn't seem to suggest that you put equal responsibility on the parties involved.

And I actually don't go into non-Sawyer related threads just to defend him. I will mention a comment if I'm already involved in a larger discussion. But I GENERALLY don't go into a thread and switch the subject over to Sawyer, if it wasn't already about that. I'm sure I've done it inadvertantly at least once...everyone makes mistakes...

I know I've seen you do it before....maybe not intentional, but you have done so. Everyone does make mistakes. So, why can't we let this go and let people get back to the topic they supposedly want to talk about? I've been trying for at least 24 hours now.

and it was disheartening to see the thread going so off topic.

*sigh* I hear you...I have honestly been trying to encourage closure here so that you can get back to your thread. It seems the posts just keep on coming though. :ohwell:

Banshee,

Your position is that you were obliged to jump into the fray because of the negative Jate comment in the below quote. I fully understand your reaction, and if this comment had come out of the blue as a sudden unprovoked attack on Jack, I would believe you were completely justified.

However ... the below comment ...



... was in reaction to an exchange which began with this quote from KNJ (who is a Jate shipper, is she not?).



My point is ... had the original offending poster not chosen to begin her post as follows ...



... then chances are, this thread would have never taken the turn it took.

Since Lost is a character driven show, I don't suppose there really is any way to avoid these little tiffs, since there are few aspects of the show (since it is so intertwined) which can be discussed without discussing character interactions.

What caused me to bring this issue back up, was the posts attempting to make it seem that the problems in this thread were instigated by Skaters talking trash about Jate, when in fact it was a Jater who threw the first salvo.

KNJ meant no harm...and was just stating her honest opinions. Opinions are one thing, nastiness is another. I thought most seemed to accept that she meant no harm (just as the J/K fans on the thread you linked to earlier were accepting of the differing opinions posted there), and it seemed to be water under the bridge. There was no reason for it to resort to cheap shots...yet it did. And that's what you have to thank for this entire fiasco. You can blame Jaters if you like, but check the hands of those standing around you and see if their hands are entirely clean. Why don't you just let your thread go back to Kate/Sawyer talk? Isn't that what you want?

Actually, that's not true, you contributed to the disagreements yesterday in regards to the deleted scene.

I was stating a general opinion on a KATE AND SAWYER deleted scene...which I mentioned because it was related to the discussion of whether or not Kate is manipulative with Sawyer...and in general. Which is the topic of this thread. I said nothing about Jack and Kate.

"why does that mean that Jack and Kate fans HAVE to respond to those negative comments? Obviously you don't agree with them, but is it necessary to show up in a thread that is supposed to be about Sawyer/Kate and the bottle scene in some capacity and defend Jack and Kate?"

Because that's what happened in THIS thread. Sorry, but it is. In THIS particular thread, Jack and Kate fans responded to one admittedly cheap shot someone made in a post about Sawyer and Kate. I followed it up by saying that I realize that ALL sides have been gulity of this at some point. However, in this thread, the issue at hand is this discussion being turned into a Jack and Kate discussion...which was due to the repsonse to some comments by Jack and Kate fans. And, again, I said I understood the impulse, but was suggesting an alternative.

.....Or cheap shots taken at any one person or group personally. You don't think people should be able to represent themselves? The cheap shots and passive aggressive comments weren't all directed at Jack or J/K.

No cheap shots were taken at YOU or your group. Jack and Kate are fictional characters...that's not the same as someone insulting YOU. And again, I don't advocate cheap shots. But if someone makes an offhand comment about a CHARACTER on a thread, it's not representing yourself to step in. 'Cause real people and J/K are seperate issues.

Like making derogatory comments about Jack in a thread about Sawyer and Kate?

Actually that wasn't changing the subject at all, tacky as it may have been. That person was discussing Kate and Sawyer and mentioned why they liked their relationship better than J/K...that's not really off-topic. From THERE the topic was changed to just purely defending Jack...which isn't at all on S/K.

And LNL - You keep saying that YOU'VE been trying for over 24 hours to get it back on topic...but you keep responding to all of my posts. Why is it other people that are continuing this, and you trying to get it back on track?

I made a post with a suggestion for how not to let things get off track next time...and that apparently turned into more of an argument...

SHRUG...honestly, I waited for days to say anything just because I hoped the thread WOULD get back on topic, but it didn't. So I said my piece. It's not a big deal in the end...

I'm done :)

I was stating a general opinion on a KATE AND SAWYER deleted scene...which I mentioned because it was related to the discussion of whether or not Kate is manipulative with Sawyer...and in general. Which is the topic of this thread. I said nothing about Jack and Kate.



Because that's what happened in THIS thread. Sorry, but it is. In THIS particular thread, Jack and Kate fans responded to one admittedly cheap shot someone made in a post about Sawyer and Kate. I followed it up by saying that I realize that ALL sides have been gulity of this at some point. However, in this thread, the issue at hand is this discussion being turned into a Jack and Kate discussion...which was due to the repsonse to some comments by Jack and Kate fans. And, again, I said I understood the impulse, but was suggesting an alternative.



No cheap shots were taken at YOU or your group. Jack and Kate are fictional characters...that's not the same as someone insulting YOU. And again, I don't advocate cheap shots. But if someone makes an offhand comment about a CHARACTER on a thread, it's not representing yourself to step in. 'Cause real people and J/K are seperate issues.



Actually that wasn't changing the subject at all, tacky as it may have been. That person was discussing Kate and Sawyer and mentioned why they liked their relationship better than J/K...that's not really off-topic. From THERE the topic was changed to just purely defending Jack...which isn't at all on S/K.

QE...I don't have time to respond to all of this properly right now, but there were absolutely personal shots taken....I'm not talking character shots here, and standing in proxy of a character...I know the difference, trust me. There were PERSONAL shots taken. Not by you, but they were...you can deny it all you want, but go back and read everything and I'm sure you will find them.

Once again, your post seems to lay all the blame at the feet of the Jaters. You acknowledge that comments that brought us here were inappropriate, but still persist in the claim that we shouldn't have responded and that somehow we were ultimately to blame. It's an open forum! We are allowed to defend any position we want....but voicing dissenting opinions and taking it to a nasty level are separate issues, and you need to take a closer look at the behaviors of some of your colleagues.

Why doesn't someone post something about Sawyer and Kate to give people something else to talk about?

And LNL - You keep saying that YOU'VE been trying for over 24 hours to get it back on topic...but you keep responding to all of my posts. Why is it other people that are continuing this, and you trying to get it back on track?

I made a post with a suggestion for how not to let things get off track next time...and that apparently turned into more of an argument...

SHRUG...honestly, I waited for days to say anything just because I hoped the thread WOULD get back on topic, but it didn't. So I said my piece. It's not a big deal in the end...

I'm done :)

QE...as long as I see the double standard blame game being tossed around, and people are making comments directed at things I have said, I will feel compelled to respond. Anytime you're ready for me to stop responding, just stop blaming or directing comments to me. It's simple. I keep asking people to get back to their discussion, but everyone seems more interested in blame than they are in actual discussion.

I didn't say the comments that brought you here were inappropriate. They were tacky perhaps...but they were NO BIG DEAL! Someone said something about Jack being holier than though...or treating Kate a certain way. I like Jack, and I disagree wholeheartedly with most negative comments about him. But wouldn't bother to get into it here, beacuse it was never the point.

As for the comments being personal...they certainly weren't initially. I'm sure once you starting defending J/K, they may have GOTTEN personal. But if you guys hadn't bothered, it wouldn't have happened :ohwell:

All I'm saying is that it's not worth it to bother to respond to every MINOR derogatory comment that someone makes about a character. If people make offhand comments about Jack or Kate...or ANY character...take the high road. Because, although I understand why it's frustrating...it's a side issue that doesn't need to be argued in the forum of the main discussion.

Anyway, in the spirit of getting this discussion back on topic...I'm waiting until the next few episodes to see if they ever follow up on the bottle and the notes again ;)

I haven't gotten a chance to address thoughts after my last reply..

I personally go to great lengths to avoid shipper debate or conflict. I have spent many hours of my time smoothing over disagreements between ships I wasn't even involved in.

Fact of the matter is topics do deviate all the time so it it being a ship development thread doesn't exclude it.The Ana Lucia is a ___ thread in the EHH forum was chalked full of off topic detours. To the pnt it prompted a comment from someone;

We started out discussing AnaLucia and have now ventured out into the structures of society, how to reach alienated children, school issues,the rights of people during wartime....etc etc. What fun!

Comparisons of Ana/Sawyer to Kate/Sawyer as a couple were made which isn't relevant Ana's personality being a _____ but KS were defended because folks disagreed w/the observations made:
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=22348&page=35

That's what happened here.

sheba- I was stating when I personally got involved and why...As you know we can't control every single person but for what it;s worth KNJ is new to Fuse and was not aware of the kind of unspoken rule not to begin conversation of another ship on a non topic thread. It's not as sensitive an issue to her as those of us who have been here a bit longer. Who fired the 1st shot becomes irrelevant when replies following are directed toward furthering the debate. It becomes a 2 way street for topic deviation.

Again personally I try to avoid cases which may instigate ship debate or go too far off hand of topic. Sometimes it happens.... However, when things are made part of a discussion it's fair game IMO. Karri has repeatedly addressed the issue of threads being exclusionary...Jack/JK are frequently brought into ? , especially negatively and it would be impossible to respond to it all. But just because a lot of what is debated in re: to them occurs outside of their forums, doesn't make ppl partial to them any less warranted in their responses, than when other fans rebut every pnt against a character within their sections....Jack/JK fans are not in the minority of replying to opinions they disagree with about their characters regardless of topic.

Anyway as Jan said as long as anything is said that ppl have a different view on, there will be responses.It's the nature of discussion. I'm all for letting it go back to the scene, but the discussion now is the discussion itself lol.

I didn't say the comments that brought you here were inappropriate. They were tacky perhaps...but they were NO BIG DEAL! Someone said something about Jack being holier than though...or treating Kate a certain way. I like Jack, and I disagree wholeheartedly with most negative comments about him. But wouldn't bother to get into it here, beacuse it was never the point.

As for the comments being personal...they certainly weren't initially. I'm sure once you starting defending J/K, they may have GOTTEN personal. But if you guys hadn't bothered, it wouldn't have happened :ohwell:

All I'm saying is that it's not worth it to bother to respond to every MINOR derogatory comment that someone makes about a character. If people make offhand comments about Jack or Kate...or ANY character...take the high road. Because, although I understand why it's frustrating...it's a side issue that doesn't need to be argued in the forum of the main discussion.

Anyway, in the spirit of getting this discussion back on topic...I'm waiting until the next few episodes to see if they ever follow up on the bottle and the notes again ;)

Okay, okay...skaters are always right, and should say anything they want, any time they want, and anyone that doesn't agree should just stay quiet about it. And if they do make the mistake of saying that a comment was out of bounds, they should be accepting of cheap shots, even of a personal nature, that are fired at them. Okay, I understand your rules of play now.

If I never disagreed with a skater, I wouldn't have cheap shots thrown at me by them. :rolleyes: Nice.....

Once again, you yourself have not practiced what you preach in the past Q. More double standard.

How am I not practicing what I preach? Explain to me how I've taken any shots at you, or insulted you at ALL on a personal level. I've never once made this personal. This is about keeping threads relatively on topic.

Once again...taking a cheap shot at J/K is NOT the same thing as taking a cheap shot at a JATER. Those are totally seperate issues. Explain to me how even saying something horrible about Jack and Kate is a personal shot at the jaters? Again, I'm not advocating it. I love Jack...more and more every day! and I don't agree with the comments that were made, which you responded to.

I once read a Shannon thread where people went on and on about how everybody was so hard on Shannon and yet they loved Sawyer, even though he was much worse. Than they listed all the reasons why Sawyer was worse than Shannon. Was it irritating? YES. But I didn't say anything because the topic of the thread was Shannon, and not Sawyer. And in the end, it's not worth it. I'll save it for a discussion when it's relevant.

This was not an issue about you disagreeing with Skaters...How many shipper debates have we all had where we all disagreed and no one was complaining about it being off topic? Disagreeing is not the issue. It's a time and place thing.

And, AGAIN, I know it's been done by both sides. I"ve seen Skaters do it, and I did grit my teeth and wish they would save it for later.

I don't see how suggesting that NOBODY jumps into unrelated threads just to comment on one offhand comment, is taking a cheap shot at Jaters.

Banshee - Yes, I realize that some threads get somewhat offtopic naturally. In the case of Ana Lucia is _____, it did veer away sometimes, but most of the conversation WAS about Ana Lucia. Whether it be her attitude, her relationship to Sawyer, her vs. K/S...it was all about her. Then it grew into a broader debate about rules and authority and the structure of society, which was all very related to her tactics as a leader. But the topic was pretty vague...it was basically just opinons on Ana Lucia :)

You two are funny :roflmao:

Banshee - Yes, I realize that some threads get somewhat offtopic naturally. In the case of Ana Lucia is _____, it did veer away sometimes, but most of the conversation WAS about Ana Lucia. Whether it be her attitude, her relationship to Sawyer, her vs. K/S...it was all about her. Then it grew into a broader debate about rules and authority and the structure of society, which was all very related to her tactics as a leader. But the topic was pretty vague...it was basically just opinons on Ana Lucia

In that context though with the title of this thread being KS developments, which is also fairly general, those developments could include Jack/Kate & how they effect/differ from KS. Much like how A/S's relationship differs from/effects any further developments with K/S as was discussed on the Ana thread.

I think we're all just making ourselves dizzy :teehee:

I think I helped derail the Ana Lucia thread. Sorry.

It took me a while before I realized that I don't have to jump into every debate where my favorite characters/ships are bashed.

However its hard when someone posts a point of view that comes across like it is written in stone and the poster only looks at one side of a character's make up. What is seen as 'holier than thou' to one person another person sees an inner emotional quagmire. Its also hard when one person seems to highlight one part of a character's behavior without taking into consideration other factors or when it seems like they are willing to give their character a pass for basically the same behavior. You feel like you have to jump right in there and say "But what about when X did this..or what about that? You're not taking into consideration everything else involved!!" and on and on.

The best way is to acknowledge right away that "Yeah..my favorite character can be a pain in the butt at times but I still like him because...." Maybe x and y should not go together but I think they would work.

And you have to realize that no matter how well you state your case and even if help someone to see your side of things (they may not ever like your fave character but they might at least understand why you do) there will always be someone new who will start posting and say 'Jack is control freak with a hero complex!" and you have to find yourself starting all over..

After a while you just..quit. Until someone completely misses the point of a scene or a bit of dialogue of course. ;)

Which is what some of might have done with Kate and the bottle for instance. ;)

WOW I just read that basically I was the starter of this whole thing. I'm truely DEEPLY sorry, lord I so meant no harm, I just like to discuss things. I PROMISE I WILL NEVER EVER post another thing about Jack and Kate in any thread that has Kate and sawyer in it. I didn't think it was that big of a deal, and it wasn't in the shipper thingy so I thought it was fair game and okay. Again, my sincere deepest appologies. I'm not sure where, or what to post but I'll sure will be careful from now on.

WOW I just read that basically I was the starter of this whole thing. I'm truely DEEPLY sorry, lord I so meant no harm, I just like to discuss things. I PROMISE I WILL NEVER EVER post another thing about Jack and Kate in any thread that has Kate and sawyer in it. I didn't think it was that big of a deal, and it wasn't in the shipper thingy so I thought it was fair game and okay. Again, my sincere deepest appologies. I'm not sure where, or what to post but I'll sure will be careful from now on.

Don't worry about it. I'm sure everyone will get over it.

WOW I just read that basically I was the starter of this whole thing. I'm truely DEEPLY sorry, lord I so meant no harm, I just like to discuss things. I PROMISE I WILL NEVER EVER post another thing about Jack and Kate in any thread that has Kate and sawyer in it. I didn't think it was that big of a deal, and it wasn't in the shipper thingy so I thought it was fair game and okay. Again, my sincere deepest appologies. I'm not sure where, or what to post but I'll sure will be careful from now on.
Don't worry KNJ you honestly didn't know. Folks made their own choices to debate.

KNJ - I don't think you started anything at all actually! It's not that people can't mention Jack and Kate if the subject is Sawyer and Kate :) You weren't being offensive!

I think it's just when the entire thread starts to veer off into the virtues of Jack or Jack/Kate....it started to have nothing to do with Sawyer and Kate. But KNJ you were actively discussing the bottle and the Sun/Kate scene as well, so I certainly don't fault you for making an offhand comment :) You stayed pretty much on topic.

Gah...I'm back! What did I miss? Oh, nothing....we're right where we were. :biggrin:

QE....you seem to have misread some of the things I said...perhaps I misstated them, as I had to be somewhere and was on my way out the door as I sent, so let me go over it and clarify.

How am I not practicing what I preach? Explain to me how I've taken any shots at you, or insulted you at ALL on a personal level. I've never once made this personal. This is about keeping threads relatively on topic.

By not practicing what you preach I meant that you have posted in threads to defend Sawyer, when the topic of the thread wasn't really Sawyer. I didnt' say you had taken personal shots...you yourself have not. But there were some taken by others. Not by you personally, you're above that. :)

Once again...taking a cheap shot at J/K is NOT the same thing as taking a cheap shot at a JATER. Those are totally seperate issues. Explain to me how even saying something horrible about Jack and Kate is a personal shot at the jaters? Again, I'm not advocating it. I love Jack...more and more every day! and I don't agree with the comments that were made, which you responded to.

And once again...I understand the difference between taking a shot at J/K and taking a shot at a Jater. I said that already. Trust me, if you read enough of it, ye shall find. It started out with hostilities over the derogatory remarks but it went other places.

I once read a Shannon thread where people went on and on about how everybody was so hard on Shannon and yet they loved Sawyer, even though he was much worse. Than they listed all the reasons why Sawyer was worse than Shannon. Was it irritating? YES. But I didn't say anything because the topic of the thread was Shannon, and not Sawyer. And in the end, it's not worth it. I'll save it for a discussion when it's relevant.

Hey, we've all been there....when we decide to just walk away because we really don't need that right now. Sometimes we decide to voice an opinion though...and there is nothing wrong with doing so. The trick is to try and do it in a constructive manner. That was why I pointed out that no one seemed to have a problem with the two skaters who posted on the J/K thread that was mentioned. It wasn't done in a nasty way, it was merely differing opinions and the conversation moved on. There is no reason for people to take cheap shots...it isn't helpful and only serves to create a hostile environment when there really didn't have to be one, even with differing opinions voiced.

This was not an issue about you disagreeing with Skaters...How many shipper debates have we all had where we all disagreed and no one was complaining about it being off topic? Disagreeing is not the issue. It's a time and place thing.

What would be the time and place then? This thread is in the episodic section. As far as I know, everyone is entitled to voice their opinions there. Again, if you want to have a discussion with likeminded souls on the wonders and merriment of your ship, without anyone offering other opinions, perhaps your ship thread would be a better location. Why is there no burden of responsibility put upon those who actually took cheap shots? Again, are they not at least as culpable as those who responded to them? That's all I've been asking.

And, AGAIN, I know it's been done by both sides. I"ve seen Skaters do it, and I did grit my teeth and wish they would save it for later.
We've all been there too.


I don't see how suggesting that NOBODY jumps into unrelated threads just to comment on one offhand comment, is taking a cheap shot at Jaters.
I don't believe I said it was. Cheap shots were taken at Jack, and at Jate, and after some voiced dissent on those opinions, the discussion went downhill fast, and yes, some got a little personal. I never said that you were the one to take a cheap shot, you were not.



KNJ...don't worry. You're new, you meant no offense, and it wasn't you that started it, even though you posted here. You were not being nasty in your post, and it was certainly nothing that warrented a nasty retaliation. This thread is in the open forum, and everyone is entitled to post if they desire.

LOL
It's like watching first graders fight on the play ground!

LOL
It's like watching first graders fight on the play ground!

We have better vocabularies...you gotta give us that at least. :smile:

you are so hilarious! yes you absolutely have better vocabs!

By not practicing what you preach I meant that you have posted in threads to defend Sawyer, when the topic of the thread wasn't really Sawyer. I didnt' say you had taken personal shots...you yourself have not. But there were some taken by others. Not by you personally, you're above that.

Okay, sorry...I did mis-understand what you meant by that :). But I still stand by the fact that I very rarely try to defend Sawyer in threads where it's not the issue. I do it constantly in his character section, and in threads about him. But I don't recall any recent incidents where I defended Sawyer in a thread that wasn't related to him. I defended him somewhat in the Ana Lucia thread...because the topic was about her behaviour towards him and whether it was warranted...but other than that....

And once again...I understand the difference between taking a shot at J/K and taking a shot at a Jater. I said that already. Trust me, if you read enough of it, ye shall find. It started out with hostilities over the derogatory remarks but it went other places.

Oh I completely concede that it went downhill from there...it always does...lol. :rolleyes: But what I meant was that when Jack and Kate were initially slammed, it was only about them and not about 'jaters'. So, it wasn't really a case of defending yourselves when the sugject was initially switched to J/K. Honestly...that's another thing that bothers me too. It IS a shame that it's starts getting personal...But don't you think that that COULD possibly be avoided if sometimes EVERYONE let some deragatory remarks towards couples or characters go? :ohwell: . If you think about it...if someone makes an offhand remark in a thread like this that is tacky or kind of nasty....how likely are they to listen to reason if you bother to defend that character? I'm guessing not much...I'm just saying that personally I think it makes more sense to shrug it off and save the defense of Jack for a serious debate where people are really willing to get into an interesting discussion.

The trick is to try and do it in a constructive manner. That was why I pointed out that no one seemed to have a problem with the two skaters who posted on the J/K thread that was mentioned. It wasn't done in a nasty way, it was merely differing opinions and the conversation moved on. There is no reason for people to take cheap shots...it isn't helpful and only serves to create a hostile environment when there really didn't have to be one, even with differing opinions voiced.

I completely agree with this. And if people want to post differing opinions on a thread like this, and it's constructive, I have NO problem whatsoever with that :). My problem wasn't the differing opinions at all. It was more that the topic was kind of switched over to Jack and Kate because people were defending them...and Kate and Sawyer were not even being discussed anymore. If the issue was some constructive comments about J/K vs. K/S on a thread like this...that wouldn't really be a problem :). It was more that the original topic kind of got overlooked because it became about defense of Jack and Kate. :ohwell:.

What would be the time and place then? This thread is in the episodic section. As far as I know, everyone is entitled to voice their opinions there. Again, if you want to have a discussion with likeminded souls on the wonders and merriment of your ship, without anyone offering other opinions, perhaps your ship thread would be a better location. Why is there no burden of responsibility put upon those who actually took cheap shots? Again, are they not at least as culpable as those who responded to them? That's all I've been asking.

Okay...what would be the time and place? In a thread that is related to Jack or Jack and Kate...or an event which involved them. It doesn't have to be about agreeing with people.I realize this isn't a ship...but it IS a topic. Meaning the discussion in here should be about Kate and Sawyer (positive AND negative opinions) I feel perfectly justifed posting in a Jack and Kate thread as long as I'm talking about THEM. Just as you should feel perfectly justified in posting in a Sawyer and Kate thread as long as you're talking about THEM. You don't have to be posting in support of them...just at least discussing them :).

In terms of the people who took cheap shots at Jack and Kate. I'm not agreeing with them...but they were offhand remarks. And in a thread that is about Sawyer and Kate, it's likely that a J/K comparison IS going to come up at least in passing. If you read a sentence or a small remark about J/K that irks you because you feel its a cheat shot, why humour the person by attempting to get into a real discussion about it? Like I said, if they're making forceful anti-J/K statements, they're probably just going to get nastier if you bother to take the bait. I'm not praising them for making remarks that are incindiary, but I don't think that every silly comment needs to be met head on. It just makes the situation worse. Does that make any sense? :ohwell:

RE: Shipping

My money is on: Kate & Sawyer, Ana & Jack, Charlie & Claire, Sun & Jin, Rose & Bernard, Desmond and Rousseau, Sayyid and Shannon

but then I write romance novels.

RuneMuse

Which is what some of might have done with Kate and the bottle for instance. ;)
I guess you are a better interpreter than all others who have opposing views then?

I have no problem with you expressing your own point of view but to say others are wrong and exaggerating is pretty rude.

runemuse, I just read your siggy - if you wrote a Kate and Sawyer romance, I'd gladly read it. :drool:


I do entertain several interpretations of what happened, and some are possibly very similar to your own, but I have questions I need answered before I make up my mind. It's the law school flashbacks, I read the case and then figure out what the points of law are. There are a lot of loose ends from that scene.
Ah, law school. Perhaps that's the reason behind our adversarial approaches. That is how we were trained, is it not?



And with this show it really doesn't help to make assumptions, because the moment they think you're anticipating going right they are going to take a sharp left. I really believe the writers wanted there to be controversy, otherwise things could have been presented much more clearly.
I agree, there are several possible interpretations of the scene, and it all comes down to which facts each poster gives the most weight to. Seeing as everyone's different, we won't all have the same interpretation. And its the same in law, isn't it? Both sides have a different interpretation, and they find themselves in a court of law to have their dispute settled. Unfortunately here, on a discussion board, there is no judge or jury to decide that. It's just positing of an opinion - your position on something, and having someone respond. Then you respond to that, and so on, and so on, in a never-ending cycle, until one decides to let it go.

I guess you are a better interpreter than all others who have opposing views then?

I have no problem with you expressing your own point of view but to say others are wrong and exaggerating is pretty rude.

I have no opposing views. The only opposing view I had was with QE and we agreed to disagree.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Where did I say that anyone else was wrong and and exaggerating? Do you have me mixed up with someone else?

The line you quoted was a joke..my attempt to try and get this thread back on topic but I think its way too late. The 'ship' has sailed. ;) That was another joke btw.

The only opposing view I had was with QE and we agreed to disagree.

LOL...yes, I promised to eat my words...or a hat in the near vicinity...if they go back to this bottle and we find out Kate was 'up to something' ;)

:lol2:

RE: Shipping

My money is on: Kate & Sawyer

RuneMuse

But you know the leading lady always seems to end up with the leading man in TV shows(and in movies). Except for Dawson's Creek when Joey picked Pacey . It would be interesting if she didn't pick the leading man. It all depends on who Kate really loves.

:kiss1:

The one thing I love about this scene, is that Kate not only is admitting to herself that she has regrets about how Sawyer and she parted, but that Sun is a witness to that and seems to be understanding. We now have another person on the island who is aware that there is something between the two of them.

[quote=LostNLuvinIt;558337]
What would you have thought Jack should do when he walked into that shower? Should he have been all neanderthal and attacked her? "Me Jack, me take Kate!"?:rolleyes:
[quote]

Cool, I didn't even realize I create such a big reaction. I usually just put in my 2 cents and move on. Didn't mean to upset you ladies with my opinons on your man.:redface:

I have one thing to say about all this.

The 'ships are co-dependent. Neither would be HALF as interesting without the other. Can we all at least agree on THAT? LOL

X Rated Hatch Shower scene with Kate, Sun and Claire or STFU!

I have one thing to say about all this.

The 'ships are co-dependent. Neither would be HALF as interesting without the other. Can we all at least agree on THAT? LOL

Yup. :smile:

Plus the Lost creatives will never go all the way with one combination. There won't be a "shipper winner" so to speak. We will get to see a little Jack/Kate, a litte Sawyer/Kate, a litte Jack/Ana and a little Sawyer/Ana. It will give every shippper group a little something to melt their butter at one time and keep their hopes up that "their" combo will make it in the end. Best daytime soap strategy: "Keep them hoping = Keep them watching" (two words: Brooke & Ridge on "The Bold and the Beautiful" :biggrin: ). Simple really. All the shipper groups will be served one way or another, but none of them will have a "five-course-shipper-dinner" in the end. :biggrin:

Yup. :smile:

Plus the Lost creatives will never go all the way with one combination. There won't be a "shipper winner" so to speak. We will get to see a little Jack/Kate, a litte Sawyer/Kate, a litte Jack/Ana and a little Sawyer/Ana. It will give every shippper group a little something to melt their butter at one time and keep their hopes up that "their" combo will make it in the end. Best daytime soap strategy: "Keep them hoping = Keep them watching" (two words: Brooke & Ridge on "The Bold and the Beautiful" :biggrin: ). Simple really. All the shipper groups will be served one way or another, but none of them will have a "five-course-shipper-dinner" in the end. :biggrin:

very true. i cite my former fandom. the Buffy/Angel verse. oh my that was a huge thing
over who was her true love and with whom she could ever be happy. in the end, it was
with neither/none of her suitors. not carved in stone but pretty much dashed every
hopeful Bangel/Spuffy/Ruffy. so yeah i wanna see Kate with Locke. just kidding. ;)
or maybe Desmond. :lol: i am a Skater but i dont deny the Jack attraction.
i prefer to wait and see, while i scarf up all the morsels that the writers hand out. :)

okay i will stop now. :biggrin: