She's tough when she needs to be, and knows exactly what to say when someone needs comfort. Now the island has a spiritual leader in addition to the doctor, hunter, tech guy, etc. I hope she finds her husband alive. It would be a great reward for her having the faith she has in the fact that he is still alive. I hope that Charlie is on his way to getting better now that he's been comforted.

I love how this episode ended with prayer and music, which are two of the most comforting and spiritually uplifting things in the world.

*raises hand*

*and huuuuugs Charlie* ;)

OMG Rose totally wins at life.

I was glad to see her back--and she was exactly what Charlie needed.

This wasn't my favorite episode ever, but I too loved the way it ended.

At first I was like, be nicer to Charlie! but he really did need a push in the direction towards self-recovery. She is uber cool in my book! Plus, she was totally clearing away all the wreckage like what! *;)
Then when she was like, I can't help you Charlie. I was like, you better! but I think praying is nice...

Yay! I'm so glad you guys have the love for Rose too! She's a tough lady but is also very motherly. It's important to have that kind of influence. And Charlie definately needed to get up off his bum and do something instead of sitting there dwelling on a situation he could do nothing about.

This episode wasn't my favorite either, but it did have its moments. Especially the end. :laugh:

I love Rose. She's a great character. I'm not too fond of the religious thing, but that's what Charlie needs, IMO.

I liked what you said about her being the island's spiritual leader, Charliesgal. She did a great job of getting Charlie back on his feet and sharing her loss and coping mechanism with him so that he could find a way out of his funk. I'm happy to see Rose back and I hope that they expand her character. ;D

Thanks, Hoodie. It appears that the named characters are beginning to place themselves into roles, or are falling into roles according to their skills, strengths, etc. Every society needs some sort of spiritual guidance, so I see Rose filling this void very nicely.

theG, faith doesn't have to be religious. Faith is the most important part of life, and faith in God sustains people when they need comfort. From my answers and reactions to that moment in the episode, you can obviously tell that faith and prayer are a big part of my life, but even if they are not a big part of yours, I appreciate the fact that you say that's what Charlie needed at the time. After all, he was a religious person before he became an addict.

I agree with those who said it she seems to be becoming the island's spiritual leader. *In disasters, people either turn to their faith or away from it. *Plus, Charlie's backstory made a big deal out of his sense of religion before he was in the band.

I am sooo looking forward to more interactions between Rose and other survivors. *I wonder what kind of conversation that her and Locke would have. *CharliesGal...I too enjoyed the end of the show this evening, prayer and song. *I enjoyed that Rose led Charlie to the fact that Faith is stronger than denial and then led him in a direction that puts him on a path to finding faith...prayer.

I think Rose was exactly who Charlie needed....She was great. And it was nice to see her.

Jessica

CharliesGal, "Heavenly Father" implied religion to me, that's all. And I agree, faith and religion are different. It was a moving moment from the character's perspective for me, even as an atheist.

theG,
I see where you're coming from. No argument here. I think that Rose is a deeply religious person who believes that prayer has the power to heal. Since I agree with that perspective, it meant a lot to me to see it on a show that's not 7th Heaven or Touched by an Angel (both of which I can't tolerate!) I love the fact that, even though you don't agree with the sentiment, you still find it moving from the character's perspective. You must be very open minded.

I was really glad to see more of Rose.. i was beginning to wortry that she had dissapeared into the forrest or something. And I liked the addition of faith ( not necessarily religion as was already stated) being able to heal here..

I'm loving how much Rose and Charlie compliment each other. They've both lost someone, granted they're both hoping that's only temporary. It's perfect that they bond. I'm loving it.

I've always kind of liked her. It's nice to see that even after all the horror these people have been through that one person can stay so strong. Faith is what these people need(religious or not...I would prefer not.) But everyone is giving up hope of everything it seems. And the more they give up, the more the island will take effect on them. Maybe that's the real "sickness".

*runs off since she was starting to get to deep*

did anyone realize that both charlie and rose experienced near death experiences. Rose had to be revived by Jack in the first episode and Charlie in the last episode befor tonight. and now they are friends and comforting each other. hmmmmm...weird.

did anyone realize that both charlie and rose experienced near death experiences. Rose had to be revived by Jack in the first episode and Charlie in the last episode befor tonight. and now they are friends and comforting each other. hmmmmm...weird.

Maybe that's a reference to resurrection of Jesus. When Rose first said you need to ask for help they cut to the cross that marks the dead marshall's grave. And I know Christians believe that when you are saved you are "born again" like He was resurrected

I liked Rose's character quite a bit before this, but her appearance today was very well done. Given that we already have philosophical references in Locke and Rousseau, too, Rose's beliefs may be another philosophical pillar all their own. Locke and Rousseau have both already shown themselves as more than we think, as sages of one form or another, and Rose may be in that group as well.

But if her last name is Augustine or Aquinas, I'm outta here.

Maybe her last name is Luther?

The thing about Rose that keeps me from being so impressed by her- she told Charlie that he wasn't to blame for what happened to Claire, that no one blames him. Um, what if he was sad about what happened, not because he thought he was responsible? Now, in the back of his mind he thinks some people blame him for not saving her. Gee thanks lady.

I also think their bond is not religion but the fact they were both brought back from the brink. Locke sorta shares that with them, in that a part of him that was dead is now alive. Locke has also told someone to ask for something, although he noted that to get something, you have to give something.

I don't know where I'm going with this, other than the same way Locke said it would rain in one minute and it did, Rose may be saying her hubby is alive and he turns out to be.

i loved the scene... i am not very religious... i was once upon a time... i am spiritual however and i still have a belief in a higher power... i just don't know what exactly my perception of the higher power is... i was very touching to see Rose help Charlie in what i viewed to be the best way for him... i do somewhat agree with gameoverman's comment about the nobody blames you, but at the same time i think that Rose is very perceptive and knew what needed to be said. we only see a portion of what happens on the island and i am sure that Rose was just working on what she perceived. ok rambling now... gonna stop.

Not me. That is, I like her a lot, and I'm glad to see her back, but I was not thrilled at all with her approach to Charlie. Frankly, I wanted more sympathy from her. Maybe she should have thought back to when Jack helped her out of her funk - I don't recall everything he said, but I do know his tone was not harsh. She wouldn't have made me feel better. I agree with the Gameoverman. Why on earth did she think that Charlie would be blaming himself? Maybe a little bit (for no reason, he didn't do anything wrong), but he was mostly griefstricken at losing Claire, something Rose apparently didn't notice. Then again, Rose, like everyone else, didn't seem to know who the heck Claire was, so why should she care?

I hope that this show doesn't turn into some silly religious propaganda. This is the second time Rose has said she 'knows' her husband is alive, so that should be interesting.

It seems like Charlie is being pulled in two directions; good and bad (the monster (Ethan) and Rose)...again I hope this show
doesn't get religious on my ***.. :-[

I wouldn't have a problem with their being religion shown as long as its just shown as a part of some people's lives and not preaching a particular set of beliefs. . Claire seemed to be a New Ager or something, Charlie is Catholic...Locke seems to have something of his own going on...and so does Rose. If they show religion, that's one thing. Its part of everyday life and it would silly to think all of the survivors were agnostics or something. There are probably varying degrees of belief just like in real life. Pushing a parituclar religion is something else. I hope they don't do that either.


We don't know what Charlie was thinking or feeling deep down.* He may well have been blaming himself AND feeling bad for Claire's disappearance. Remember it was he who convinced her to move to the caves. He was the one who said he wouldn't let anything happen to her and it did.* I would certainly feel guilt if it were me. Rose got right to the heart of the matter as far as I'm concerned.

I think Rose gave Charlie what he needed, "tough love". Sometimes you need someone to give you a verbal slap across the face, and that's what she did. Like others have said, Rose and Charlie have a bond because they were both pretty much brought back from death's grip.
She's also the "mother and nurturer" as far as I'm concerned. I have no problems with the small religious undertones. Remember, Charlie was once quite religious before the drugs. Faith can be an anchor in rough waters, and that's certainly where they are right now.

Rose kinda started to creep me out at the end

I have always loved the character of Rose. And just seeing her interact with Charlie and help him get his emotions out was breathtaking. She is such the perfect Earth Mother for the island. She is the complete opposite of Locke. He is attack attack attack , while she is more focus, believe, pray. Man I love that woman. And it doesn't hurt the fact she was helping my man Charlie work through his problems, since no one else seemed to have time to do it.

i am loving rose's tough attitude too! i understand charlie's crappy attitude, but c'mon get off your duff and help move some stuff! she really did a good job lining him out....yet she was so tender about his pain too!
breezy

Yah, I really enjoyed Rose in this episode, too. I agree with mr. booboo that the most interesting thing (for me) was that Rose has twice said she knows her husband is alive. And both times, she has said that with a peaceful conviction--what if he is alive?

My little sister and I are starting to see her as the "God" figure on the Island. What do you guys think? :angel:

Not only have both she and Charlie been separated from someone they care about deeply, they both were brought back from the edge of death by Jack!

Not only have both she and Charlie been separated from someone they care about deeply, they both were brought back from the edge of death by Jack!


Good Point babygotbackgammon! I hadn't thought of that.

Not only have both she and Charlie been separated from someone they care about deeply, they both were brought back from the edge of death by Jack!


Does this mean that Rose is just a prophet and Jack gets to be the 'God' figure? (And I put 'God' in quotes to mean no one specific god, but an all-knowing giver and taker of life.)

I agree with elf that there were several different "belief" systems going and if that is what is going on in that particular person's life so be it.

No one was uneasy when Claire was talking about astrology hocus pocus, we just took it all in stride as part of her life and her storyline.

I also think that although we hadn't seen Rose, she had been around enough to see along with everyone else that Charlie spent a lot of time with Claire.* Especialy if Claire mentioned that no one could look her in the eye.* It wasn't a stretch for her to know Charlie was feeling guilty. It is called survivor guilt and is very common for those who have survived a tragedy in which others didn't fair as well.

I like Rose, always have.

I hope that this show doesn't turn into some silly religious propaganda.* This is the second time Rose has said she 'knows' her husband is alive, so that should be interesting.

It seems like Charlie is being pulled in two directions; good and bad (the monster (Ethan) and Rose)...again I hope this show
doesn't get religious on my ***.. :-[


I love the fact that God has been brought into the picture. I didn't see your posting when Sayid was upside down parying to Allah, which is simply God in Arabic.......... I am certin IMO we will see much more Spiritual implications to the show..........

Religion is simply how you practice your Faith............ Religion is not about God.

I loved Rose in this. I loved that they brought her back, I loved that they brought back the mystery of her conviction that her husband lives, and I especially loved how she handled Charlie. We might not have seen it, but knowing how people walk on eggshells around you after a traumatic event, I'm sure Charlie had received the due sympathy, gentleness and space. He obviously didn't respond (note Rose's "I hear you not speaking much these days" - approx what she said at least). I think her initial tough love was great to get him not only to get off his butt and get out of his own head a bit, but also, I think made him want to come to her later. She didn't just pity him or handle him with kid gloves. She SAW him and what was going on. Later, when he came to her, she then responded with the necessary peacful compassion that he needed. Before her tough love, I honestly, think he was too marred down in his own thoughts to be benefitted by anyone.

As for the prayer, I like that they brought a religious aspect in. Religion exists, whether one believes in a higher deity, many higher deities, not none at all. To never mention it and to ignore all religious aspects of our various human cultures because it is more politically correct, is IMO unrealistic and a bit silly. Rose's prayer to me was the same as Claire's astrology. As DiamondLife said, no one felt force fed astrology by Claire's line. Rose's line is the same. IMHO at least.

I LOVED Rose! I thought it was very believable that she would pray. It's almost not believeable that in a random sampling of 46 people stranded and fighting for their lives that there wouldn't be more prayer. Rose is obviously a Christian (I'm assuming that because her comments on faith, and the wording of her prayer, and her faith that God would help Charlie) and Charlie seems a deeply believing Catholic, though his lifestyle has strayed. ;) So, it was very plausible and I was glad that ABC had the courage to air it.

TPTB have mentioned a connection to the Stephen King book "The Stand". *I have heard mention by the producers that Locke is based on the evil character Randall Flagg. *The opposite power in that book was an old black woman named Mother Abigail. *Flagg was the stand-in for the devil, Mother Abigail was te stand-in for God. *The Rose character seems to be taking on the Mother Abigail role in Lost.

TPTB have mentioned a connection to the Stephen King book "The Stand". *I have heard mention by the producers that Locke is based on the evil character Randall Flagg. *The opposite power in that book was an old black woman named Mother Abigail. *Flagg was the stand-in for the devil, Mother Abigail was te stand-in for God. *The Rose character seems to be taking on the Mother Abigail role in Lost.


Hehehe! I just created a topic to that effect in the Wild Theories section. It seems plausible, however, given the shows general theme that nothing and no one is exactly what they appear on the surface, I don't think they will go for a strictly Abagail- like characte = good, Flagg like character = bad, approach. I think they might use the comparison to highlight a different approach/worldview between the two, but then twist it around, mix it up, and add depth from there.

I LOVED Rose! I thought it was very believable that she would pray. It's almost not believeable that in a random sampling of 46 people stranded and fighting for their lives that there wouldn't be more prayer. Rose is obviously a Christian (I'm assuming that because her comments on faith, and the wording of her prayer, and her faith that God would help Charlie) and Charlie seems a deeply believing Catholic, though his lifestyle has strayed. ;) So, it was very plausible and I was glad that ABC had the courage to air it.


I totally agree. In a world where putting a couple of scenes about faith makes people start talking about religious propaganda, it was couragous to air this episode. You're right, more people would be praying in that situation, no matter what their previous beliefs were. You tend to cling to whatever you think might help when you are trying to survive.

What a great discussion my little post sparked! It has been very interesting reading everyone's replies.

Rose kinda started to creep me out at the end


LOL. She was more like The Oracle from the Matrix to me. I was waiting for her to offer Charlie a piece of candy.

Jeez, guys. One prayer doth not a religious nut or Oracle make.

I totally agree Andrea! I think especially with this show, people need to have an open mind about different things, and that may include religion , psychic abilities, or herbal medicines.

Does this mean that Rose is just a prophet and Jack gets to be the 'God' figure? (And I put 'God' in quotes to mean no one specific god, but an all-knowing giver and taker of life.)


With Jack being the giver and taker of life, if rthat why he was the one to euthanize the pilot?

Jeez, guys. One prayer doth not a religious nut or Oracle make.


Exactly!!

Maybe that's a reference to resurrection of Jesus. When Rose first said you need to ask for help they cut to the cross that marks the dead marshall's grave. And I know Christians believe that when you are saved you are "born again" like He was resurrected


POSSIBLE SPOILER! Sorry, don't know how to make it disappear...PM me if anyone wants to explain! The Butterfly ain't too bright! :P


I like that...it also ties in with the theory that the pilot was not the body in the tree...that it may have been the co-pilot...and should he be alive and find his way back to the fold, he would appear "resurrected" to the Lostaways

I started another thread about this, but it seems to fit here...anyone see a Mother Abigail figure (The Stand) in Rose?* And if there's a fine line between faith and denial, then who do we think is on the denial side?* Everyone without faith?* And faith in what, exactly...faith in rescue, faith in fate, faith in a god of some sort, faith in fellow man?

8i8

I think Rose was saying "I know my husband is alive" and that she was walking a fine line between faith and denial. She chooses to think that her belief in her husband being alive is faith, but realizes it looks very similar to denial.

I think Rose was saying "I know my husband is alive" and that she was walking a fine line between faith and denial. She chooses to think that her belief in her husband being alive is faith, but realizes it looks very similar to denial.


I agree with you. I think she really does believe that he is alive somewhere. I loved that one line of hers:

"There is a fine line between denial and faith. It's nicer on my side."

I liked that line a lot too - in fact I thought it was the strongest of the whole episode. I am (in my current incarnation) happy exercising my constitutional right to not believe,* but Rose (and the actress playing her) makes it sound so nice on "her" side!
wish it were that simple...

btw what IS her name?

btw what IS her name?


L. Scott Caldwell

wasnt it a bit unhealthy.. for rose to keep saying that her husband is still alive. isn't that denial? she needs to grieve properly, and find acceptance in what has happened, yet she seems unwilling to let go of the idea that her husband is still alive.

she has been very good to charlie this last ep though, i am so pleased she gave him a shoulder to lean on. bless xxx

Jeez, guys. One prayer doth not a religious nut or Oracle make.


Jeez, guys. *If thou must know I was referring to her mannerisms and voice patterns. *Next time I'll keep my opinions to myself. *But probably not.

I don't think Rose could have been any other way with Charlie. I bet she's a mom. And being a mom, you know in your heart that sometimes, being kind isn't always the kindest thing you can do for a person. Charlie absolutely needed Rose to give him a dose of tough love. It made him talk, made him move. It's helping him move on.

I also think Charlie does in fact blame himself for Claires kidnapping. She's gone, and he's still there. He said he'd protect her because of the weird dreams and attacks she'd been having, then the next thing you know, they're both taken. True he nearly died, but I think he's feeling guilty that he lived. Didn't he say something like, "maybe it would have been better if I'd died"... I think Charlie really needed to hear that the others didn't blame him for Claires disappearance.

I personally like Rose's quiet faith that her husband is still alive. The island has given some remarkable gifts already, Locke and his legs, helping Charlie survive the crash even though he was in the first class bathroom (not to mention when he was hung) it gave Walt his dog (wasn't he in the baggage area?) . Who's to say whether or not Rose's husband will make an appearance.

Thanks, Hoodie.* It appears that the named characters are beginning to place themselves into roles, or are falling into roles according to their skills, strengths, etc.* Every society needs some sort of spiritual guidance, so I see Rose filling this void very nicely.

theG, faith doesn't have to be religious. Faith is the most important part of life, and faith in God sustains people when they need comfort.* From my answers and reactions to that moment in the episode, you can obviously tell that faith and prayer are a big part of my life, but even if they are not a big part of yours, I appreciate the fact that you say that's what Charlie needed at the time.* After all, he was a religious person before he became an addict.*


I like what you said about the everyone finding their roles idea, CharliesGal. One of the key reasons I first became interested with this show was that the idea of exploring a situation where people are thrown into an isolated location following major trauma and seeing how they establish their own society and create interactions and relationships under the strains of their new exsistance is, to me complelely riviting. I was, I admit, a little disspointed when I saw the whole "mystery 'dinosaur'" supernatual-esque threats because I was more interested in the humanism of the situation, (but, sidenote, now I like the mixing it up with weird factors because it adds new stress and interesting drama.) Rose showing her true character with peace and faith is just what I was waiting for- hers, of course, is the most hopeful of most of the characters, and it is neat to see that the writers decided to portray the character of someone at peace with conflict and disruption of life when they are trown into trauma. In so many traumatic situations, the hope and faith in life is what pulls people thorugh- babies born after tragedies, communities coming together to rebuild after disaster- faith in so many forms, not just religious. Finally they started to show a bit of this on the show, and I hope they are able to develop Rose's character much more throughout the show!

Ilove Rose and I was quite happy they had the prayer scene. As many people have already mention mentioned, for many people religion is an aspect of their lives and for a program where a show starts out with a disaser, it wouldn't look to sensible not show someone praying at least once.

I have to say that kind of bothered me with Star Trek the Next Generation. Only one character (Worf) was religious or spiritual, and through out the whole run of the show (7 years) not a single character entered a long term relationship or got married. That's just not realistic when dealing with a large group of people.

I agree that it was brave. I am religious and personally, I liked it, but I think it was important for the character progession. It shows Charlie's path to redemption, and the redefinition of his faith. I liked that he found someone who got him, and where he was coming from. (By the way, I also think that the writers are doing a good job of portraying different ways of thinking and different religious views.) It was well written and well acted. It made me teary eyed. :'(

I like what you said about the everyone finding their roles idea, CharliesGal.* One of the key reasons I first became interested with this show was that the idea of exploring a situation where people are thrown into an isolated location following major trauma and seeing how they establish their own society and create interactions and relationships under the strains of their new exsistance is, to me complelely riviting.* I was, I admit, a little disspointed when I saw the whole "mystery 'dinosaur'" supernatual-esque threats because I was more interested in the humanism of the situation, (but, sidenote, now I like the mixing it up with weird factors because it adds new stress and interesting drama.)* Rose showing her true character with peace and faith is just what I was waiting for- hers, of course, is the most hopeful of most of the characters, and it is neat to see that the writers decided to portray the character of someone at peace with conflict and disruption of life when they are trown into trauma.* In so many traumatic situations, the hope and faith in life is what pulls people thorugh- babies born after tragedies, communities coming together to rebuild after disaster- faith in so many forms, not just religious.* *Finally they started to show a bit of this on the show, and I hope they are able to develop Rose's character much more throughout the show!


Suzie,

This was one of the most interesting aspects of the show for me as well.* I just graduated from college with a minor in sociology, and seeing how the writers show these people forming their own society in the midst of their post traumatic reactions and trying to survive is fascinating to me.* And they have done a very good job so far.* I really believe the reactions and situations we have seen are close to what would really happen.* This show is great about making the viewers identify with the characters because they are written to be real.* Now to bring this back full-circle, to show some of the characters with religious convictions of one kind or the other is very real to me, as I know very few people who don't believe in something.

I have always loved the character of Rose. And just seeing her interact with Charlie and help him get his emotions out was breathtaking. She is such the perfect Earth Mother for the island. She is the complete opposite of Locke. He is attack attack attack , while she is more focus, believe, pray. Man I love that woman. And it doesn't hurt the fact she was helping my man Charlie work through his problems, since no one else seemed to have time to do it.


I don't see her as the complete opposite but as a mirror image.

Locke is also a spiritual leader of a different sort, as apparently Rose will be.

I think they are also parts of the Black/White symbolic theme we've been tracking. Balance, neutrality, yin/yang.

TPTB have mentioned a connection to the Stephen King book "The Stand". I have heard mention by the producers that Locke is based on the evil character Randall Flagg. The opposite power in that book was an old black woman named Mother Abigail. Flagg was the stand-in for the devil, Mother Abigail was te stand-in for God. The Rose character seems to be taking on the Mother Abigail role in Lost.


The thought had also crossed my mind.

Suzie,

This was one of the most interesting aspects of the show for me as well.* I just graduated from college with a minor in sociology, and seeing how the writers show these people forming their own society in the midst of their post traumatic reactions and trying to survive is fascinating to me.* And they have done a very good job so far.* I really believe the reactions and situations we have seen are close to what would really happen.* This show is great about making the viewers identify with the characters because they are written to be real.* Now to bring this back full-circle, to show some of the characters with religious convictions of one kind or the other is very real to me, as I know very few people who don't believe in something.


I agree with you CharliesGal- I was pleasantly surprised with the way the show turned out... it could have easily been a sort of Melrose Place Goes to the Beach with a bunch of scantily clad guys and gals traipsing the island looking for coconuts while 'discovering' each other (seen "Blue Lagoon"?* haha one of my favourites, but still...)*
Instead, they've created an intellectual and very human show that isn't afraid to delve into real human reactions and qualities that most television shows tiptoe over in trying to stay neutral and "politically correct".* The fact that they are in a post-traumatic, very odd situation is the perfect medium to show human nature to its extreme, and this episode used that vechicle marvelously.* Of course, most shows has to have their entertaining and superficial moments, but this show has rarely- if ever- fallen back on weak plot gags for viewers... even the golf game a few episodes ago showed the reaction to trauma of taking a brief "vacation" from stress and emotion to find solace in some leisure activity from before.* In the same way, the glimpse of Rose's faith, and her helping Charlie with so much quiet confidence- not trying to force him into believing in any sort of source of help, but instead gently leading him to the point where he can choose to ask for help, and then showing him where he can ask for it, was very well done, and a beautiful scene.

I have heard mention by the producers that Locke is based on the evil character Randall Flagg. The opposite power in that book was an old black woman named Mother Abigail. Flagg was the stand-in for the devil, Mother Abigail was te stand-in for God. The Rose character seems to be taking on the Mother Abigail role in Lost.
That is really really fascinating. The fact that they're the only two middle aged people on the island... the fact that white (light) guy/ black (dark) woman is an ancient archetype for evil vs. good (respectively)... The radical difference in their tactics that can almost be seen as paternal and maternal... I think you guys are on to something.

I absolutely agree about the tactics of Locke and Rose. He is definately paternal, especially with Boone and Walt, teaching them, passing on his expertise to a younger generation. She is absolutely maternal, the way she got Charlie off his butt to begin with and then the way she comforted him and guided him to the path that would be of the greatest help to him.

This deserves some thought. *goes off to consider everything*