Well, on the ABC Site it was a Hell fire of a topic, and now it was on last nights show. The God factor is beginning to take shape. As a God Follower, I think this is an attempt to spin us either off track, of foreshaddowing the "Help me, I am not the one who can help you." Heavenly Father prayer at the end of the show.......

It will be interesting to see how us clones of the show react, and how the take this or drop this story line. I did wonder all the time that Jack last talked to the Black Lady (Don't know her name") and her Husband was in the tail section. Now She says she KNOWS he is alive. One of two possibilities.

A- He is alive in Heaven after his Physical death

B- He is on the Island some place.

Interesting since we have Locke actin like Budah, and Sayid a Muslim, and Clair into New Age religion.... looks like there is bait to take it to God here, but I think not.

I think it is all avbout the mechanics of that island, and that it is NOT really an Island.....

If we find Walt Disney frozen some plave on the Island its' all over !!!!

It will be interesting to see how us clones of the show react, and how the take this or drop this story line. I did wonder all the time that Jack last talked to the Black Lady (Don't know her name") and her Husband was in the tail section. Now She says she KNOWS he is alive. One of two possibilities.


When she sat on the Beach and would not talk drink or eat, it was like she was Fasting................ Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Interesting my dear watson!

I thought the prayer was fantastic. Kudo's to ABC for not being afraid of it! I thought it was very fitting considering both of the characters seem very religious.

I love that the writers of this show seem so open to embrace so many different styles of mysticism and faith-systems; and, not just that, but that, the way they do it, we see exactly how similar the roles these peoples' beliefs take in their (not exactly day-to-day) life. Rose and Charlie praying, Claire's astrology, Sayid's praying...I kinda want to assume, too, that, when Locke sits alone on the beach, looking out to see, he's meditating. I kinda have to assume, too, that Sawyer is an agnostic or atheist, especially based on his very pragmatic disbelief of Walt's retelling of Claire's kidnapping & everything.

If there is an atheist or agnostic person, I would rather it be someone like Hurley (liked by the castaways) than Sawyer. I think some people might assume that Sawyer has no faith because of his childhood. I would rather a character who didn't believe in God to not believe in God because he/she doesn't think it makes sense.

I love that the writers of this show seem so open to embrace so many different styles of mysticism and faith-systems; and, not just that, but that, the way they do it, we see exactly how similar the roles these peoples' beliefs take in their (not exactly day-to-day) life.* Rose and Charlie praying, Claire's astrology, Sayid's praying...I kinda want to assume, too, that, when Locke sits alone on the beach, looking out to see, he's meditating.* I kinda have to assume, too, that Sawyer is an agnostic or atheist, especially based on his very pragmatic disbelief of Walt's retelling of Claire's kidnapping & everything.


I think it's easy for them to embrace all of these belief systems because it's an ensemble cast. The characters are all individuals from different backgrounds. It's easier for viewers to accept, knowing for example that it's only Rose (supposedly) who believes that Jesus is her savior. They don't all subscribe to one (controversial) belief system.

I just watch parts of the episode again *on TiVO and I don't know if this was intentional or not but when Rose said she wasn't the one who could help Charlie...Charlie closed his eyes FIRST..before Rose started praying as if he were starting to pray *to himself . Its pretty obvious if you watch the scene closely. It seems Rose took the cue from Charley...not the other way around.

I have no idea if that means anything or not...but its there.

If there is an atheist or agnostic person, I would rather it be someone like Hurley (liked by the castaways) than Sawyer.* I think some people might assume that Sawyer has no faith because of his childhood.* I would rather a character who didn't believe in God to not believe in God because he/she doesn't think it makes sense.


Well, I can't speak for Hurley, as we don't have evidence, but I think we couls safely guess that Jack falls into the Athiest or Agnostic category. *I don't remember him showing an real kind of belief in a higher power, and at least to me (I might be forgetting something) not particularly receptive to the thought of believing in it himself. *He might not have had the best past, but given his medical training, I could defnitely see a sense of being agnostic or athiest stemming from a very empirical education. *

I don't think it needs to be about anything other than showing reality. I was so happy to hear Rose start praying. The first thing believers usually do in awful situations is pray, but TV never shows it. It doesn't have to be about anything other than showing what some people would actually do in the situation. It is interesting that Rose is so happy now. I'll go along with the person who said maybe she thinks her husband is in heaven. A religious person might consider it being "alive" to be living eternally in heaven. If she thought he was alive somewhere else on the island, you would think she would be worried about him being hurt, or getting eaten by the monster, but she's just so darn happy now. It makes sense that she's happy because she's accepted the fact that he's in a better place.

How can you call Locke a Buddhist? The guy hunts more than Ted Nugget and last I checked Buddhist do not kill living creatures. And just because Charlie prayed does not mean it is going to be the second coming of Jesus Christ on the island. Let's see, Charlie just quit using drugs, the girl he liked was just kidnapped, and he had a very-near death experience. Who wouldn't pray after that? I pray every time I run a yellow light that it doesn't turn red, that doesn't mean a war of the angels is going to show up in my front lawn. This show is not going to turn into some kind of Left Behind novel, because then it would suck. The writers seem to know how to use faith in a story, but not overuse faith in a story.

I pray every time I run a yellow light that it doesn't turn red, that doesn't mean a war of the angels is going to show up in my front lawn.


Wow, that was really, really funny!




This show is not going to turn into some kind of Left Behind novel, because then it would suck. The writers seem to know how to use faith in a story, but not overuse faith in a story.


Completely agree.

I just watch parts of the episode again on TiVO and I don't know if this was intentional or not but when Rose said she wasn't the one who could help Charlie...Charlie closed his eyes FIRST..before Rose started praying as if he were starting to pray to himself . Its pretty obvious if you watch the scene closely. It seems Rose took the cue from Charley...not the other way around.

I have no idea if that means anything or not...but its there.




I love the way Charlie has kind of gone full circle. We saw in "The Moth" that in his pre-driveshaft days Charlie was a pious Catholic (going to confession, careful about his language, upset with all the women/drugs/alcohol surrounding the band), and now he's kind of rediscovering his faith. Perhaps he'll ride that out and return to a pre-Driveshaft state of mind?

I love the way Charlie has kind of gone full circle.* We saw in "The Moth" that in his pre-driveshaft* days Charlie was a pious Catholic (going to confession, careful about his language, upset with all the women/drugs/alcohol surrounding the band), and now he's kind of rediscovering his faith.*

This is the ONLY reason I got ok with the prayer ending.* Granted I am speaking as a non-Christian, and while showing prayer under diress for believers is fine with me, I found ending the episode that way a little... its hard to put language to it but I'm going to say 'one sided', religiously speaking.* *There are better words I'm not thinking of right now. Not Preachy, and I hope it never goes that way.* I do like the melting pot that's so far been shown - Sayid is Muslim, the Koreans are probably non-Christian, etc.* I just REALLY hope religion doens't become a main theme.

For the record, I think that Rose was eluding to her husband being dead and in a better place, she’ll meet with him in the afterlife (Christianity's heaven), etc.

Also in response to Misplaced's comment "How can you call Locke a Buddhist? The guy hunts more than Ted Nugget and last I checked Buddhist do not kill living creatures." I completely concur!* Locke is no Buddist, and I don't think the show has told us what (if anything) he is.* I do like that he seems to be thoughtful and meditative though. :)

How can you call Locke a Buddhist? The guy hunts more than Ted Nugget and last I checked Buddhist do not kill living creatures.

That is the funniest thing I have heard in weeks!! But so true.... Thanks for that!!! Ted Nugent ha ha ha

Peace!

How can you call Locke a Buddhist? The guy hunts more than Ted Nugget and last I checked Buddhist do not kill living creatures. And just because Charlie prayed does not mean it is going to be the second coming of Jesus Christ on the island. Let's see, Charlie just quit using drugs, the girl he liked was just kidnapped, and he had a very-near death experience. Who wouldn't pray after that? I pray every time I run a yellow light that it doesn't turn red, that doesn't mean a war of the angels is going to show up in my front lawn. This show is not going to turn into some kind of Left Behind novel, because then it would suck. The writers seem to know how to use faith in a story, but not overuse faith in a story.


Actually, Left Behind series is a much different theme than this, so saying it would suck would be mindless since you dont know how lost will end. Left behind is a fictional movie about the Boor of Revelation. I dont see any similarities here. Why is it any time anyone likes a little God or Christianity in a show, people have to flip out over it. You don't hear people in an uproar over idiot TV reality shows that IMO are the most moralistically degrading shows to people.

Oh well long live Lost!

Well, on the ABC Site it was a Hell fire of a topic, and now it was on last nights show. The God factor is beginning to take shape. As a God Follower, I think this is an attempt to spin us either off track, of foreshaddowing the "Help me, I am not the one who can help you." Heavenly Father prayer at the end of the show.......

It will be interesting to see how us clones of the show react, and how the take this or drop this story line. I did wonder all the time that Jack last talked to the Black Lady (Don't know her name") and her Husband was in the tail section. Now She says she KNOWS he is alive. One of two possibilities.

A- He is alive in Heaven after his Physical death

B- He is on the Island some place.

Interesting since we have Locke actin like Budah, and Sayid a Muslim, and Clair into New Age religion.... looks like there is bait to take it to God here, but I think not.

I think it is all avbout the mechanics of that island, and that it is NOT really an Island.....

If we find Walt Disney frozen some plave on the Island its' all over !!!!




Holy Frickin Crap! Thats too cool! I've been calling Locke Buddah since like the first few episodes! Thats hilarious I thought I was the only one that saw that! :)

I think we don't see more characters praying because, frankly, it is boring just watching someone pray.

I think the Rose/Charlie scene worked precisely because it was a scene about two characters, and that scene happened to involve praying- not because that scene was about praying.

Imagine if it had ended with just Rose by herself praying, it would be boring to watch.

Well as a Christian I for one really appreciated the positive portrayal of faith and prayer - and I left JJ and the writers of this episode notes on the board to express to them my gratitude... :lol2:

I thought it was a wonderful moment

I could do without the praying, personally. But since Charlie's religious feelings have been previously introduced, there was, at least, some foundation for the scene. And they could setting Rose up for a "The Stand' type role...

Actually, I wondered about the cross (made from sticks) on the marshal's grave. If Jack was the one who did that, how did Jack know the marshal was a Christian? On an island where it's obvious that several different religious faiths are represented, one should perhaps be careful about what symbols are used to mark graves.

Templeton

Actually, I wondered about the cross (made from sticks) on the marshal's grave. If Jack was the one who did that, how did Jack know the marshal was a Christian? On an island where it's obvious that several different religious faiths are represented, one should perhaps be careful about what symbols are used to mark graves.

Just curious....What else would you use to represent a grave? A cross is the most recongizable form to represent that. What if everyone on the island dies, and 20 years down the road someone finally finds the island. The families would maybe want the "remains" of their loved ones buried at home. Do you think a stone? a coconut? would be a good enough grave marker that people would recognize it? Since as far as I recall, they don't have any religious connotation?

I enjoyed the praying and thought it was very realistic. And I'm not religoius.

Why is it any time anyone likes a little God or Christianity in a show, people have to flip out over it. You don't hear people in an uproar over idiot TV reality shows that IMO are the most moralistically degrading shows to people.


I completely hear you on the reality show comment - but I want to quickly address the other question you pose.

For the record, I assume here that you were not speaking to me with that, and I certainly don't take it personally at all. *Also, I have NO intent to turn this into a religous battle - there are enough of those already in the world. *(So many disclaimers needed these days...) *
However: *I would only point out that this is not a one-sided happening. *I have witnessed on countless occasions the exact opposite occuring - breathe the idea of Paganism in the mass media and watch the extremist Christian hackles rises. * Heaven forbid you mention the words Wicca or Witch (pun obviously intended) and you get a full blown and often well funded Christian crusade on your hands. *
I am not suggesting this behavior is carried out by all Christians so please no-one take personal offence. *

As to the interesting discussion regarding the cross Jack made to mark the grave, even as a non-Christian I have to go with the recognizable symbol here. *Whether they agree or not, most people will recognize a cross marker as a grave. *I'd prefer not to have one on mine, but I'd less like my loved ones to overlook or never find me (for their sake) because my resting place wasn't identifiable.
It also may have been a reflection of Jack's faith, as he said he buried the officer because 'he-Jack' needed to... or simply so he could find it again if there were a need. . . which there was.

I'm done now! *;)

How can you call Locke a Buddhist? The guy hunts more than Ted Nugget and last I checked Buddhist do not kill living creatures. And just because Charlie prayed does not mean it is going to be the second coming of Jesus Christ on the island. Let's see, Charlie just quit using drugs, the girl he liked was just kidnapped, and he had a very-near death experience. Who wouldn't pray after that? I pray every time I run a yellow light that it doesn't turn red, that doesn't mean a war of the angels is going to show up in my front lawn. This show is not going to turn into some kind of Left Behind novel, because then it would suck. The writers seem to know how to use faith in a story, but not overuse faith in a story.


HA! ;D This is one of the best posts! Kudos to you, and I totally agree!

The difference between Locke and a game hunter is that Locke hunts for food. Not for the sport of killing a live animal to stuff and place over their fireplace as a trophy.

There is a difference between the two. Locke kills for food, not for the sport of killing the animal. To me he's like an aboriginal hunter where he becomes the animal he tracks and kills it.

Didn't Locke plan to go on a hunting walkabout in his backstory? Isn't that why he had so many knives with him? :-\

PEACE!

A Walkabout isn't about hunting, it's about becoming one with the land. A spiritual awaking.

Ok, thanks, I didn't know that. Why did he have so many hunting knives though? ???

There's a saying in the outback, you'll go further in the jungle with a knife than a gun although the knife was a machette.

You still need to learn basic survival techniques in the outback, it's not all safe what with funnel webs, aligators and snakes. Although if you meet an aligator you better have a gun!

I think we should see more of Locke's backstory before we can give any reason as to why he had so many knives.

Although if you meet an aligator you better have a gun!


LOL!! I guess we will have to wait to find out more about the knives. I don't know how I got it in my head he was going on a hunting excursion.. :-\

Maybe somebody told me that was what a Walkabout was earlier???? I just hate misinformation!! ;)

Thanks Trueogre!

I think originally a Walkabout was when an aborigini went into the outback as a rite of passage...found this:

A "walkabout" is a ritual in which a young man goes on a solitary journey through the wilderness in an attempt to learn more about his own character and strength

Locke signed on for a Walkabout when he only qualified for a Rollabout. Maybe he put the knives in his spokes so he'd sound like an aboriginal bullroarah as he rolled along the countless handicapped ramps of the outback. Locke's travel agent ain't the brightest light, I hope he got a refund on the surfing safari too.

To say Locke hunts soley to bring home the bacon is to ignore the "DON'T TELL ME WHAT I CAN'T DO!" blood march moments that make him such a loveably sweet soul. The food seems rather like a nice side effect of Locke's thrill kill hobby. If they discovered an underground bunker of Dinty Moore stew cans, I'm pretty sure Locke would still be poking porkys in the bush.

Cuzzin it's fun and such!! Yeeha!

Thanks! *I found basically the same description a moment ago. *I thought I had a part of the puzzle somewhat figured out with the knives and all but it looks like I'm back to being LOST! *ha ha * :lol2: *

I know this thread originally started with God and we got on the hunting track due to the "very funny" Ted Nugent reference! *That had me laughing for quite awhile. *But, on the religious thread... *I really like that the writers seem to have people of varying faiths on this show. *Ending the episode with a prayer and a song was a beautiful thing IMO.

PEACE!

Locke signed on for a Walkabout when he only qualified for a Rollabout.* Maybe he put the knives in his spokes so he'd sound like an aboriginal bullroarah as he rolled along the countless handicapped ramps of the outback. Locke's travel agent ain't the brightest light, I hope he got a refund on the surfing safari too.

To say Locke hunts soley to bring home the bacon is to ignore the "DON'T TELL ME WHAT I CAN'T DO!" blood march moments that make him such a loveably sweet soul. The food seems rather like a nice side effect of Locke's thrill kill hobby. If they discovered an underground bunker of Dinty Moore stew cans, I'm pretty sure Locke would still be poking porkys in the bush.

Cuzzin it's fun and such!! Yeeha!


I'm rolling on the floor laughing right now!! You're great Mr. Tibbs!! :D

Woah!! Let me defend myself against the dude in the red shirt. I wasn't "flipping out" that Charlie (gasp!) prayed. I was responding to the wild speculation that Charlie praying was anything more than what it was: a guy with some serious problems doing some soul searching. If I was on that island I would be doing the same thing, well that and having as much sex as possible. But I guess more people would be "flipping out" over the sex thing than praying. And to put an end to it, Locke is not a Buddhist. If you don't believe me, then ask Buddha: "Him I call a brahmin who lays aside the rod with regard to creatures, moving or unmoving, and neither kills nor causes (their) death."

If I was on that island I would be doing the same thing, well that and having as much sex as possible. But I guess more people would be "flipping out" over the sex thing than praying.

LOL :lol2: DITTO!!

This was the most touching scene so far! :angel:

This show is not going to turn into some kind of Left Behind novel, because then it would suck. The writers seem to know how to use faith in a story, but not overuse faith in a story.


I'm not sure if you were implying that someone suggested it would....but no one did. All I've read so far are comments from people who are talking about one simple and very tastefully done incident with Rose and Charlie praying; nothing about going overboard with it.

Imagine if it had ended with just Rose by herself praying, it would be boring to watch.*


Absolutely not....a good writer could make a scene like that unforgettable. It would all depend on the situation, and what she said and how she said it.

I thought the prayer scene was sweet, and touching.

I think originally a Walkabout was when an aborigini went into the outback as a rite of passage...found this:

A "walkabout" is a ritual in which a young man goes on a solitary journey through the wilderness in an attempt to learn more about his own character and strength


I guess Sayid is the one who has gone walkabout then. ;D

Charlie/Rose scene was just two people, one a lapsed Catholic and the other Christian sharing a moment of comfort. They share the same basic beliefs so it is only natural they would deal with a problem the same way.

Just curious....What else would you use to represent a grave? A cross is the most recongizable form to represent that.


Uh, only if you're a Christian. Folks from other religious traditions mark their graves with different symbols. (Assuming they bury their dead instead of cremating them or placing the bodies on the Towers of Silence to be devoured by vultures).

Templeton <whose family lived among Buddhists, Jains, Hindus and Muslims in India, whose former spouse was a Muslim, and whose current partner is an atheist of Jewish descent>

Templeton, is it really that elastic of a stretch to see a man, who hails from a predominantly Christian society (we'll call it "America" just for the Christ's sake of it), using his society's most common symbol for burial? Jack is also a doctor, which means he's got an entire set of work luggage with crosses sewed on the side, big red ones in fact, and his daily grind lapel is tattooed with a caduceus.....which kinda sorta resembles a cross wouldn't you say?

As far as we know Jack didn't live among Buddhists, Jains, Hindus and Muslims in India or bump uglies with atheist muslims of Jewish descent that work at Tibetan monestaries teaching Native American rain dances and the Macarena to Mormons. If the show has a long enough run, we just might see all that in backflashes, but we have not to this point.

I can't remember the last time I drove by a notoriously dangerous intersection and saw nine brass kumbhas laid out by the side of the road, but those crosses made from yardsticks seem to sprout like spring daisys. My next door neighbor is Jewish, yet there's a cross in the ground behind their house where their dog is buried. Go figure. If the writers had used something other than a cross to define a gravesite, frankly that would have seemed odd.

It's an American show for an American audience. That's why Rose mentions the name "God", not "Waheguru". Roll with it.

Ok being from the UK and knowing how different cultures are. We've had a sudden spate of you can't do this or you'll offend them, etc...

Are you talking about the same thing?

I mean we have a soap over here called Eastenders and in it they had a Nativity play but they couldn't have Christ in it in case it upset the Jewish or something like that, or they'd upset the Muslims, etc..

I didn't see Rose praying to God all that strange. People all have their own beliefs and at the moment their situations are dire at the moment.

Maybe it's because when I was at school we had to do the lord prayer and sing religous songs at assembly. That's why I don't find it strange. I am not religous myself, but I didn't find anything wrong with it myself. I'm just surprised that some people were supprised by it.

I think templeton was just answering someones question, not saying that a cross was the wrong thing to use. It's sometimes hard to tell when someone is being sarcastic, rude or whathaveyou on the board.

I went thru a misunderstanding of how someone was speaking to me and ended up with a new user name because of it. So, we need to try to make sure we somehow notate what type of emotions we are talking with so as not to be *rude*. ;D

PEACE!

No there are people saying that they were surprised that the Lord Prayer was in there and that it was brave to do that.

I think it was awesome that they put some more religion into the show. :angel:

Jack is also a doctor, which means he's got an entire set of work luggage with crosses sewed on the side, big red ones in fact, and his daily grind lapel is tattooed with a caduceus.....which kinda sorta resembles a cross wouldn't you say? ...It's an American show for an American audience. That's why Rose mentions the name "God", not "Waheguru". Roll with it.


Mr. Tibbs -- Hey, no worries, mate. I made a couple of observations and comments, but I have no particular emotional investment in crosses or no crosses, prayers or no prayers. I do like that the characters on Lost represent several nationalities, cultures, and religions. That being so, a grave could be marked in a variety of ways -- a small pile of stones, for example. Or flowers. Come to think of it, most of the graves of dead folks I know in the U.S. are not marked with crosses, but with small, rectangular stones <g>.

For what it's worth, a caduceus consists of a staff, one or more snakes and sometimes wings, depending on whether it's the caduceus of Hermes or the caduceus of Asclepius. It's a pre-Christian symbol. And the International Red Cross is the International Red Crescent in many parts of the world.

Cheers,
Templeton

I think templeton was just answering someones question, not saying that a cross was the wrong thing to use. It's sometimes hard to tell when someone is being sarcastic, rude or whathaveyou on the board.
PEACE!


Thanks Nob! Let peace prevail.

Cheers,
Templeton

hello, new here. i posted something like this on abc.

there seems to be some difference of opinion on the use of a cross to mark a grave. i think it seems perfectly natural. think of how visually interesting that transition is from rose and charlie to the cross on the grave. in that one second those sticks come to symbolize both the sacred and the profane. for rose that cross represents christ, love, faith, hope, the next world, etc. for kate it is not a cross so much as it is an "x" that marks the spot. compare the dignity of rose looking to the sky and praying to kate cravenly digging around a corpse with her bare hands. these are visual clues to these characters. it is not christians vs heathens, but idealism vs. materialism graphically illustrated. i think it is an example of good and thoughtful directing. a rare commodity in television i think.

I think it was very appropriate to have Rose praying with Charlie. Charlie was a very religious person before he got sucked into the music industry. So to have Rose bring him full circle and bring him back to his roots was brilliant. I think by doing this...Charlie will get a new faith in himself and become stronger because of it.

If I had buried someone on an island, even though I'm not a religious person, I would still use a cross.

It's a universal language telling someone it's a grave.

I think in many cases a "cross" is used just as a grave maker, not a comment on the person's religion. It is also a useful design for putting a name up when there is nothing permenant like stone. A stick with a cross piece on which to carve a name so it won't rot on the ground and can be seen easier.

I think that Jack used a cross to mark the grave because after he took the time and energy to dig a grave and bury the marshal's body he was just too damn lazy to go out, find a twenty pound piece of granite, carve out the marshal's name and a nice epitath, and then plant it next to the grave. Instead lazy Jack just took a couple of sticks and tied them together with some dental floss. I mean let's face it, you would take the easy way out too after you just buried a dead body. Oh, and speaking of burying bodies, where in the hell did Jack find a shovel? Or did he just use his bear hands?

If I had buried someone on an island, even though I'm not a religious person, I would still use a cross. It's a universal language telling someone it's a grave.


Ok, question for you then:

If Sayid, a Muslim, who prayed when he was hanging upside down in Danielle's trap, were burying a fellow Muslim on the island, would he mark the grave with a cross?

If a Jew on the island were burying another Jew, would she mark the grave with a cross?

What about Jin? If Sun died and Jin buried her, would he mark her grave with a cross? (Although there are Christians in Korea, it's not the major religious tradition in that country, so for the sake of argument, let's assume they're not Christians).

Given that Jack is probably from a Christian background (his dad's name was Christian), and given that the dead guy was also an American and thus more likely to have been a Christian than anything else, I can see why Jack would use a cross.

But the cross is not the universal symbol for graves. It's a Christian symbol.

Templeton the Stubborn ;)

Oh, and speaking of burying bodies, where in the hell did Jack find a shovel? Or did he just use his bear hands?


Do you mean he used the paws of the polar bear? :lol2:

He probably used a piece of metal from the wreck. It wasn't a very deep grave.



But the cross is not the universal symbol for graves. It's a Christian symbol.

Templeton the Stubborn ;)

A stick with a cross piece is not necessarily a "cross" so the others might.

Ok, question for you then:

If Sayid, a Muslim, who prayed when he was hanging upside down in Danielle's trap, were burying a fellow Muslim on the island, would he mark the grave with a cross?

If a Jew on the island were burying another Jew, would she mark the grave with a cross?

What about Jin? If Sun died and Jin buried her, would he mark her grave with a cross? (Although there are Christians in Korea, it's not the major religious tradition in that country, so for the sake of argument, let's assume they're not Christians).

Given that Jack is probably from a Christian background (his dad's name was Christian), and given that the dead guy was also an American and thus more likely to have been a Christian than anything else, I can see why Jack would use a cross.

But the cross is not the universal symbol for graves. It's a Christian symbol.

Templeton the Stubborn ;)


When you have absolutely no way of knowing what the guy's religion is, and no one probably cares at the moment because (let's face it) they're trapped on the jungle island of things that eat people, I think the last thought in Jack's mind would have been. "Oh, perhaps he's a (insert religion of choice). I should find out the proper funeral rites."

And maybe the guy would have wanted to be cremated. They went over this when they burned all the bodies in the fuselage.

The base of it was that Jack buried a body and he needed a way to mark the grave. The thought that would instantly come to mind is a stick-cross... I mean, how many times, in pop culture, do you see an eleborate symbol made to mark the place of a burial? Someone above even posted that their Jewish neighbors use this cross, so clearly it's a symbol that does serve as a universal symbol for graves.

The guy didn't draw a man being crucified upon the cross or anything like that, it was just a way to mark the grave and serve as a plot device for the previous scene in which Rose tells Charlie she isn't the one who can help him.

What on earth would you rather have had Jack do to mark the spot of the grave? If the Marshall was a Christian, all those options are just as likely to offend him. He had to pick something.


Oh, and speaking of burying bodies, where in the hell did Jack find a shovel? Or did he just use his bear hands?


Same place they got the axe? :-X

But the cross is not the universal symbol for graves.* It's a Christian symbol.
Templeton the Stubborn* ;)


FIRST:* I agree Templeton.* I'm a Pagan.* Should I get stranded on an island with a body to bury* :-\ I'd mark a grave with the religious symbol of the deceased IF KNOWN, and if not, I'd mark it with a Pentacle, my religious symbol... out of respect and in an attempt to show whomever found the body (if) that someone tried to do something to mark the spot.

SECOND and HOWEVER:* I go back too to what I said earlier:* Whether they agree or not, most people will recognize a cross marker as a grave.* I'd prefer not to have one on mine, but I'd less like my loved ones to overlook or never find me (for their sake) because my resting place wasn't identifiable.* ALSO:* It also may have been a reflection of Jack's faith, as he said he buried the officer because 'he-Jack' needed to... or simply so he could find it again if there were a need. . . which there was. :-\

THIRD:*
in that one second those sticks come to symbolize both the sacred and the profane. for rose that cross represents christ, love, faith, hope, the next world, etc. for kate it is not a cross so much as it is an "x" that marks the spot. compare the dignity of rose looking to the sky and praying to kate cravenly digging around a corpse with her bare hands. these are visual clues to these characters.
THIS was a brilliant pick-up, the cross to the 'x' comparison.* Nicely done and I like it! :D

FINALLY - Let me also say a big kudos to all of us who are for the most part handling such personal topics with sensativity and respect.* This is so sadly rarely found on message boards - so thanks! ;D

* I think that Jack used a cross to mark the grave because after he took the time and energy to dig a grave and bury the marshal's body he was just too damn lazy to go out, find a twenty pound piece of granite, carve out the marshal's name and a nice epitath, and then plant it next to the grave.

If you're Christian, Pagan, Jewish, Muslim or any Other Faith, I don't much care... THAT was freaking FUNNY! :lol2:

Ok, question for you then:

If Sayid, a Muslim, who prayed when he was hanging upside down in Danielle's trap, were burying a fellow Muslim on the island, would he mark the grave with a cross?

If a Jew on the island were burying another Jew, would she mark the grave with a cross?

What about Jin? If Sun died and Jin buried her, would he mark her grave with a cross? (Although there are Christians in Korea, it's not the major religious tradition in that country, so for the sake of argument, let's assume they're not Christians).

Given that Jack is probably from a Christian background (his dad's name was Christian), and given that the dead guy was also an American and thus more likely to have been a Christian than anything else, I can see why Jack would use a cross.

But the cross is not the universal symbol for graves. It's a Christian symbol.

Templeton the Stubborn ;)


Templeton wins!
Long live Templeton!

I especially enjoyed the scene between Rose and Charlie because I think it marked the end of his battle with drugs. it's pretty obvious that when he joined DriveSHAFT and they got popular, he fell away from God, since God would not look kindly on the women, drinking, and drugs. Then, on the island, he kicks drugs, has no access to alochol , and as of yet has not had any women. Him praying with Rose marked his return to his life before DriveSHAFT, i.e. before he was a messed up druggie. I see the prayer as a metaphor for Charlie's "rebirth" and the beginning of a better life for him.

About the ongoing grave marker debate. No one has mentioned the possibility that the writers, producers, director, or whoever simply added the cross because it was a great way to cut from a scene of Rose talking to Charlie and alluding to seeking help from God. I can't recall exactly what Rose said, but I do remember seeing the cross and immediately thinking, "Oh, how clever. Rose was just talking to Charlie about religion and now we see this nice symbol." It's possible that the symbol of the cross had nothing to do with Jack's beliefs and everything to do with making the scenes of the show flow together nicely.

I agree with those who said that since this show is American and intended for an American audience, symbols of Christianity will be most easily recognizable. Consider WWII victims. At the American cemetary in Normandy, France, all graves are marked with crosses except those of Jewish soldiers, who are given a Star of David as their marker. Nevermind if the other soldiers were not Christian, they are still given crosses as gravemarkers. It's simply an American tradition that continues to be prevalent among society to this day.

That being said, the arguments that other gravemarkers would do just as well are entirely credible. But since Christianity is the majority religion in America, and Jack had no access to any stone carving tools, the cross is the easiest to make and the easiest to recognize as a gravemarker.

I especially enjoyed the scene between Rose and Charlie because I think it marked the end of his battle with drugs. it's pretty obvious that when he joined DriveSHAFT and they got popular, he fell away from God, since God would not look kindly on the women, drinking, and drugs. Then, on the island, he kicks drugs, has no access to alochol , and as of yet has not had any women. Him praying with Rose marked his return to his life before DriveSHAFT, i.e. before he was a messed up druggie. I see the prayer as a metaphor for Charlie's "rebirth" and the beginning of a better life for him.



Are you kidding me? God loves to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Haven't you ever been to a Christian rock show? Those bands can wail, especially Creed. Creed is almost as good as Jesus, at least they think they are. But seriously, can't it be possible that Charlie was just grieving the loss of Claire. I'm not saying I think Charlie should continue sniffing the brown sugar; but is there not anyone out there who has ever lost a loved one, prayed/mourned, and then did not become a born-again Christian? Or am I just alone?

Christian Rock is an oxymoron.

Christian Rock is an oxymoron.


Why do you say that, theG? I'm a fan of several Christian rock bands. Not Creed, though. NEVER Creed.

Real rock is about "sticking it to the Man" (if I must quote School of Rock). Worshipping any higher being would be giving in to the Man. You're supposed to defy any being larger than yourself. You're supposed to worship the music. Real, true and blue, rock is about rebellion, breaking the rules, causing an uproar, and not apologizing or asking for forgiveness for a damn thing you do (whether or not it's "sinful"). I wouldn't even consider very spiritual people to be rockers (musicians, yes).

Christian "rock" is really just music about Christianity and electric guitars.

But seriously, can't it be possible that Charlie was just grieving the loss of Claire. I'm not saying I think Charlie should continue sniffing the brown sugar; but is there not anyone out there who has ever lost a loved one, prayed/mourned, and then did not become a born-again Christian? Or am I just alone?


I've lost more than my share and have not become a born again. You are not alone! 8)



Real rock is about "sticking it to the Man" (if I must quote School of Rock). Worshipping any higher being would be giving in to the Man. You're supposed to defy any being larger than yourself. You're supposed to worship the music. Real, true and blue, rock is about rebellion, breaking the rules, causing an uproar, and not apologizing or asking for forgiveness for a damn thing you do (whether or not it's "sinful"). I wouldn't even consider very spiritual people to be rockers (musicians, yes).

Christian "rock" is really just music about Christianity and electric guitars.


Having grown up in the time of some of the originators of Rock I have to disagree. Some rock is about that but Elvis was very religious (messed up but still...) I think if you check back with some who have been around for 40 years you will find that there are more than a few who have strong beliefs.

Punk rock and the like may be different but your basic Hip-Hop artist rages against authority, not God.

By the way, not a very religious person myself.

I should have said modern rock, and using music as a religious outlet--I'll give you the lousy "Hey, I'm 15!" excuse for not clarifying that. I'm quite young, so I really don't have the same the same views on music as you do.

Well, I don't think Elvis could be considered the best Christian. He certainly didn't treat his body like a temple (as you kind of mentioned).

Elvis did treat his body like a temple.

A big Mormon sized one.

Real rock is about "sticking it to the Man" (if I must quote School of Rock).* Worshipping any higher being* would be giving in to the Man.* You're supposed to defy any being larger than yourself.* You're supposed to worship the music.* Real, true and blue, rock is about rebellion, breaking the rules, causing an uproar, and not apologizing or asking for forgiveness for a damn thing you do (whether or not it's "sinful").* I wouldn't even consider very spiritual people to be rockers (musicians, yes).

Christian "rock" is really just music about Christianity and electric guitars.


Tell that to Bono. Lead singer of the only band that matters... :angel:

Real rock is about NO RULES WHATSOEVER including the ones in the paragraph above. Once you start putting rules to it..then its not rock.

Are you kidding me? God loves to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Haven't you ever been to a Christian rock show? Those bands can wail

I didn't say Christians can't rock. I like Christian rock and I'm sure God smiles on music that glorifies Him. I was talking about the lifestyle Charlie adopted once he became famous, i.e. the drugs, alcohol, and sex.

I'm not saying I think Charlie should continue sniffing the brown sugar; but is there not anyone out there who has ever lost a loved one, prayed/mourned, and then did not become a born-again Christian? Or am I just alone?

Yes, that's entirely possible. But considering that Charlie's backstory had a strong emphasis on his relationship with God (it started in a confessional, after all!) and there was some religious symbolism going on during The Moth, it's more plausible that his praying with Rose had a lot to do with Charlie's God as well as his mourning for Claire. (However, as she's not dead and WILL NOT DIE, perhaps mourning is not the best wording. Sorry, diehard C/C shipper here.)

I'm not trying to turn this into some sort of religious debate. I'm just saying, the producers obviously raised the religious question when they demonstrated Charlie's conflicting desires (to be a Catholic and to pursue fame) during his episode, so when they showed Charlie praying it was probably saying something about a change he was making in his life.

I accidently went to a christian rock gig because it was being advertised in my school. Me and a friend thought it would be good to check them out. OMG I've never seen anything so ... I don't know. I'd say strange, but to fellow christians it would be normal and that's what they do. But as soon as the gig was over me and my friend scarperd out there as quickly as possible. We didn't even take on their kind offer of orange juice afterwards. I don't think we could leave either because there were bouncers on the door.

If there is an atheist or agnostic person, I would rather it be someone like Hurley (liked by the castaways) than Sawyer. I think some people might assume that Sawyer has no faith because of his childhood. I would rather a character who didn't believe in God to not believe in God because he/she doesn't think it makes sense.

You could have two atheists, since there are two main types of atheists. There are atheists were religious once, but got very angry and turned their backs on God. That reminds me of Sawyer. Then there are atheists that simply don't believe in God because they might be a little skeptical or just think that we're not meant to know. That seems like Hurley.

Are you kidding me? God loves to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Haven't you ever been to a Christian rock show? Those bands can wail, especially Creed. Creed is almost as good as Jesus, at least they think they are. But seriously, can't it be possible that Charlie was just grieving the loss of Claire. I'm not saying I think Charlie should continue sniffing the brown sugar; but is there not anyone out there who has ever lost a loved one, prayed/mourned, and then did not become a born-again Christian? Or am I just alone?

They didn't mention rock music anywhere. They mentioned sex and drugs which would definately turn somebody from God because it is lust and chemical dependancy.