Okay, it seems like Jack (despite being set up as the Holy Messenger from God Responsible for Everyone's Salvation - well, at least set up as Doc. Do-Right) it quickly becoming one of the most corrupted of the group. Torture to save a possibly dieing girl's life? Okay, I guess I can see that. Withdrawing necessary medication to get a fancy briefcase just because some pretty chick says so? No.

I like this plotline, what with all of Jack's previous: "We're not savages." It even looks like Sun is becoming the chief "doctor" of the group, or will be eventually.

I think it'd be an interesting plot device if Sawyer's medication somehow was stolen/ran out/lost with no help from Jack. Suddenly all of threats about how horrible it would be ("You'll be begging me to take the case just so I can cut off your arm") would be a lot more ominous, and that might bring Jack around again.

I don't believe Jack would have done that. I don't think Sawyer believed that either - but handed it over anyway for Kate.

i just think that Jack is going through alot, being a leader, being a doctor, being a peace maker and being problem solver. Give it time Jack will come around :laugh:

I don't believe Jack would have done that. I don't think Sawyer believed that either - but handed it over anyway for Kate.


It's possible he wouldn't have, but I think it's a slippery slope between threatining and doing. I mean, just the fact that he hinted at such a horrible thing to do to a person over something so trivial made me stop.

... Then again, it's also possible that I just don't like Jack ;)

Did you people even watch the episode?

The reason he made a threat and was so serious about getting the briefcase was NOT just because a "pretty girl" wanted it, it was because he had already been told it contained four guns, and he wasn't about to play games with sawyer.

Even though Jack didn't believe Kate was telling him the truth about what was in the case, he wouldn't want Sawyer to have any guns. I think he was playing it safe by not wanting Sawyer to have the case. We've already seen what Sawyer can do with a gun.

I still think he was being harsh, I guess it's just a case of differing opinions - but it seems to me like he was taking advantage of his position as resident doctor by making those threats. It seemed pretty corrupt to me... I mean, I would think that being a doctor he'd pay some heed to the Hippocratic Oath. Apparently not. (I'm aware the oath is not formally taken, but most medical schools have some form of this and I mean the concept rather than the actual oath. Jack seemed to be the type to put the patient's well being first and foremost)

There was no way Sawyer was getting that briefcase open. It was actually Jack's opening it put the guns into play, and unless he plans on burying them this is going to be an issue. Maybe Jack didn't know that, but it seems like a pretty lame excuse to basically threaten to torture people. I don't think this is the last time we're going to see Jack do something shady, either, no matter how justified he thinks it is.

I think... when you come right down to it, as with the torture episode, this is about wether or not you believe the ends justify the means. Personally, I don't which is why I'm a bit skeptical about the whole thing.

LATE, am I glad that someone else picked up on the fact that JACK now has FOUR guns! Jack who has tortured, Jack who has recently hallucinated, Jack who seems to hold grudges.....

But then, I'm trying to think of a single character I'd be comfortable leaving 4 guns with if I were on the island. I'm really trying. My head's starting to implode bacause of the extent of the trying.

Huh.

Maybe Rose. Yeah, so far I trust the Rose. That's about it.

How my dear characters have turned on me! Bad, all of them! Or at least sketchy! SHAME!

8i8

I think it means Jack and Kate aren't all that different - they both would risk harming another person for a "greater good" or some other pressing reason... I choose to believe it's good. Jack feared that Sawyer would start running the camp cowboy style. We don't know what Kate feared yet...

You just aren't looking at it from a realistic point of view.

The only thing Jack is concerned about, and he has even said it, is protecting everyone on the island and keeping them alive. *When he gave the okay to torture sawyer, it was because he believed sawyer had the medication needed to save a life. He wasn't going to kill.

You are CRAZY if you think he acted too harsh when he threatened Sawyer with the medication. *As soon as I heard "four guns" and "sawyer" in the same sentence, i would've ran at full speed and knocked sawyer out before he even had a chance to open the case. *Jack acted calm, he knew he wasn't going to get the case easy, so he did what he did- he only USED words.

When you're on an island with no law enforcement, everyman-for-himself, and you hear some shady and as far as you know heartless man has four guns, THE ENDS DOES JUSTIFY THE MEANS in disarming ANYONE on the island. *And yep, I think Jack has the most right to the guns. He's the only person whose life and career is expressly DEDICATED to PRESERVING human life.

Sawyer knew that Jack wasn't going to stop giving him the medicine, even Jack knew that. The whole no medicine thing was a pathetic threat. What Sawyer didn't know was that Jack and Kate were able to open the briefcase. Or he did know and just wanted to see what would happen next. Sawyer likes to play games and having the briefcase opened was one game he wanted to keep on going. As to who would I trust with four pistols on the island, it would be the Koreans. They like to keep to themselves, they are rational and good natured. Plus it would be an interesting plot twist that the guy who cannot communicate with anyone else on the island has all the firepower.

And since we know that Sun knows about the guns, and Jin asks Hurley for a favor in a future episode since he gives him a fish, and Hurley is close enough to Jack to take the briefcase but dumb enough not to question what is in the briefcase

Did you honestly just type on the internet that you would give the guns to two korean people whom you couldn't even understand when they spoke, and therefore knew NOTHING about? That would be your choice? The korean guy who brutally beat and tried to drown Michael in front of his son for no reason?

You just aren't looking at it from a realistic point of view.

The only thing Jack is concerned about, and he has even said it, is protecting everyone on the island and keeping them alive. When he gave the okay to torture sawyer, it was because he believed sawyer had the medication needed to save a life. He wasn't going to kill.

You are CRAZY if you think he acted too harsh when he threatened Sawyer with the medication. As soon as I heard "four guns" and "sawyer" in the same sentence, i would've ran at full speed and knocked sawyer out before he even had a chance to open the case. Jack acted calm, he knew he wasn't going to get the case easy, so he did what he did- he only USED words.

When you're on an island with no law enforcement, everyman-for-himself, and you hear some shady and as far as you know heartless man has four guns, THE ENDS DOES JUSTIFY THE MEANS in disarming ANYONE on the island. And yep, I think Jack has the most right to the guns. He's the only person whose life and career is expressly DEDICATED to PRESERVING human life.



Woah, hey. No need to call names and use caps ;) I'm just expressing my take on Jack's actions. I think that an "ends justify means" viewpoint is what's going to break apart the survivors. They're in a world with no rules, and you can takes that viewpoint a long way in that kind of world. I mean, will it eventually become "So-and-so has a piece of food, and I'm really hungry. Let me go... er, have a chat with him."?

And Sawyer hasn't really *done* anything that should make someone be seriously worried about him. I mean, unless I'm remembering incorrectly all he's basically done is stashed a bunch of stuff and got into a few little fist fights. I remember Jack using his fists, also. He's only used guns twice... once to shoot a polar bear, which I think was justified, and the other to try to put Capt. Shrap. out of his misery. (which the good capt. apparently asked for.) And he wasn't even able to do that properly. Not exactly mr. marksman.

Considering that Kate's a convict, abiet one with a heart of gold, I'd be more worried about her having the guns. No one on the island knew (unless she's been linked with others in the past) what she did. She could have been a mass murderer for all Jack knew - didn't he wonder why the marshall escorting her felt the need for so many guns...? Just because she seems sweet and kind to the people on the island really doesn't mean anything, she could have easily been the con (wo)man of the group.

Yes I did type that I would hand the guns over to the Koreans. Who would you prefer have the guns, Jack? The guy thought it was a good idea to stap someone over a freakin asthma inhaler. I could see maybe over insulin or heart medicine, but an asthma inhaler. I am not saying Jack isn't a good guy, but I would not trust him with guns. Also, Locke is on the edge and I would not give him a gun. Kate obviously cannot be trusted. Boone and Shannon would probably shoot themselves in the foot. Sayeed is a professional torturer, so God knows what he would do with the guns. I don't think anybody would want Sawyer to have them. Hurley is a great guy, but not that bright. Michael cannot kepp track of his own kid, let alone four guns. And Charlie is a little too emotional right now, plus he is an ex-drug addict rock star. So yea, I trust the Koreans with the guns more than anyone else because I think they are the most responsible and the least likely to use them.

Jack was only playing on Sawyer's terms. He would not withhold the medication. He knew Sawyer would never willingly give up the case, so he bluffed him out. Sawyer gave Jack the case because he gained a respect for him and saw Jack was tougher than he thought, like when he punched him.... The evidence Jack wouldn't have done it is in how even after Sawyer said he'd watch Jack die and told him he made out w/Kate, Jack stayed there pinching Sawyer's artery off w/his fingers. He even came to change his bandages.

A person can die of an asthma attack.

Jack cares for Kate, but at no point was he blind to Kate possibly lying. It's why he kept saying we'll open the case together. He could have walked off with case-he had the key. But he came and told her they'd open it together in the end because he knew it meant something to her, and he was keeping his promise "because that's what I said we'd do." Kate was shocked because she didn't expect Jack to still help her after what she had done. He's a man of his word and she's lucky to have him as a friend.

Interesting how folks are so forgiving of Sawyer for playing hard ball and then when Jack has to do so, he gets criticized. :P
Jack is *human*...One min he's too hero and the next he isn't hero enough. Jack has earned the benefit of the doubt through him constantly putting others ahead of himself to his own detriment... I think last night proved he's complex and not a one dimensional hero type. It goes along w/ what MF was saying that in order to get things done, Jack would have to be a bit more like Sawyer and vice vs. They're in the wild.

I don't believe Jack would have done it and I don't think Sawyer did either. I personally think Sawyer handed it over simply because it no longer interested him. Sawyer had his chance to bash the hell out of it and got bored, sorta similar to the manifest he gave Hurley. He's gotta ask himself "is it worth more hassle with people or should I just be cool?".

I also don't put Jack's threat in the same category with the torture. Sayid is the one that tortured Sawyer, not Jack, so I think it was more a bargain kind of thing. Sawyer is into bartering and Jack was playing that game with him, using the medicine in the same way Hurley used brownie points with the group.

Yes, thank you, Jack *has* earned the benefit of the doubt. How many people are alive that wouldn't be if it weren't for Jack? Rose, Sawyer, Charlie, who knows how many else. I thought the exchange between him and Sawyer was very well acted. While he was going on about what would happen to Sawyer, they were staring at each other, and I feel like they communicated very well that Jack was bluffing and Sawyer knew it.

Unfortunately the last min of the ep was edited @ last minute because Alias ran long...This scene was supposed to be included and was relased as a spoiler pic:

http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=129&pos=16

Unfortunately the last min of the ep was edited @ last minute because Alias ran long...This scene was supposed to be included and was relased as a spoiler pic:

http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=129&pos=16


Ah... that's good :) I hadn't seen that spolier. It wasn't really wether or not he actually would give Sawyer the medicine, but on shows like this where there is so much foreshadowing I don't like to hear threats like that coming out of character's mouths, you know?

i honestly think the safest person to look after the guns would be sayid.

but even so.. i personally think the best thing to do would be to separate the guns and the ammo so neither can be used. give the guns to one person, the ammo to another. failing that, it might be better to just throw the ammo into the water so the guns cant be used. But then i think that might peeve a few of the castaways who are scared of the big bad on the island and want a false sense of security.

Sawyer gave Jack the case because he gained a respect for him and saw Jack was tougher than he thought, like when he punched him....

This I disagree with. I doubt that Sawyer has respect for anyone, let alone Jack.

Interesting how folks are so forgiving of Sawyer for playing hard ball and then when Jack has to do so, he gets criticized. :P
Jack is *human*...One min he's too hero and the next he isn't hero enough.


This I do agree with. The "forgive the bad boy, hate the hero" syndrome exists in so many fandoms now... Sawyer is not a good person. Withholding information about the asthma medication was dangerous. The way he talks to Kate is not harmless flirting (not that she's all that worried about it, but God knows I would be). And yet so many fans are so ready to forgive him- "It's ok Sawyer, you've had a bad childhood Sawyer, we forgive you Sawyer". And then there's Jack, who has done everything in his power to protect the others, find water, help out. He made a very difficult decision about saving the life of a young woman, the kind of decision Sawyer could never be called on to make. Some fans have practically damned him for this choice- no forgiveness for the hero.

Misplaced, it is obvious that you have never needed an asthma inhaler and not had one available. In our society, where modern asthma medications are readily available, it is easy to forget that people can die from an asthma attack. Even so, there probably was a less drastic way to obtain the inhaler.* *
I also agree* with Banksy, separating the guns and ammo would probably be a good way to make sure they weren't used rashly. On the other hand, if the "monster" shows up, there might not be time for a vote!

Nope, I use to suffer from asthma, but before I got my inhaler I would wake up in the middle of the night and not be able to breathe. It was scary, but sitting over hot water helped me breathe again. If Shannon was suffering from an asthma attack they could have boiled some water, or went to Dr. Sun medicine woman. My whole point was that Jack thought torturing someone to get back an inhaler was a good idea, that he doesn't neccessarily make good decisions, and therefore is not the first one I would trust with four pistols. Besides asthma is usually brought on by air pollution, and being stuck on a tropical island I would think Shannon's asthma would eventually go away.

Nope, I use to suffer from asthma, but before I got my inhaler I would wake up in the middle of the night and not be able to breathe. It was scary, but sitting over hot water helped me breathe again. If Shannon was suffering from an asthma attack they could have boiled some water, or went to Dr. Sun medicine woman. My whole point was that Jack thought torturing someone to get back an inhaler was a good idea, that he doesn't neccessarily make good decisions, and therefore is not the first one I would trust with four pistols. Besides asthma is usually brought on by air pollution, and being stuck on a tropical island I would think Shannon's asthma would eventually go away.


I agree - Jack has his heart in the right place, but his judgement seems to be a little off (as is everyone's, honestly!) and he hasn't been exactly stable in past episodes. Possible dead father, hallucinations, etc?

Like someone else said, Rose is the only person I would really trust the guns with. Sun has the right judgement, but I think she's too submissive. Really, the only way I'd feel good about those guns were if they were dismantled and buried/dropped off cliffs/etc.

Asthma is not always caused by air polution, if that was the case, it would be a new disease. I recently moved out of the big city and to the country and while my attacks are less often, they still happen. And though boiling water, herbs, etc may help, sometimes they don't. And at that time, they did not know about Dr. Sun, medicine woman, remember? Sometimes even an inhaler doesn't help. The point is, Shannon needed her inhaler, they had reason to believe Sawyer had it and Jack and Sayid were doing what they thought they needed to do to save her life. I agree they went too far. But Sawyer also could have helped himself and Shannon (so they would have known to look elsewhere) by just telling them he did not have it. I don't think Jack is perfect. He's not my "woobie". But I don't think he's evil either. I think he's a flawed human being, like everyone else on that island (and this earth).

I don't think Jack is perfect. He's not my* "woobie". But I don't think he's evil either. I think he's a flawed human being, like everyone else on that island (and this earth).


*gasp* :o

Are you insinuating that there could be more than one Woobie. NOoooooooWay Withay!!!! Locke is THE Woobie. The Great and Benevolent Woobie.

*So Sayeth LockeMeUp!*

:P

Jack has held it together pretty well I'd say given the pressures he's under and he hasn't even begun to complete the Kubler Ross 5 stages of grief with his *father dying.

It was Sayid's idea to torture...but I think Jack believed it was just going to be a scare tactic and it went a lot further than he anticipated-it's why he got Sayid to back off...I don't know what they could have boiled water in-the only vessels they had were plastic bottles. And Sun doesn't speak-she only came up w/the hollistic medicine after the fact. As far as Jack was concerned Shannon's inflammation in her airways was going to get too severe unless they had the inhalers. Most western doctors trained in clinical mainstream medicine don't think of plants rt off the bat, but he was open to it. I think the torture was a mistake of Jack's, but his record in moving to the caves, burning the Fuselage, and all the judgement calls he's made w/medical situations have given him the benefit of the doubt. He deserves forgiveness too.

*gasp** :o

Are you insinuating that there could be more than one Woobie.* NOoooooooWay Withay!!!!* Locke is THE Woobie.* *The Great and Benevolent Woobie.*

*So Sayeth LockeMeUp!*

:P


Oh no, there could only be one "Woobie". But I could have a (much poorer example) "woobie-wanna-be of my own who could only dare to dream to be 1/100th of the Real Woobie. (humor her while I back away sloooowly......)

Nope, I use to suffer from asthma, but before I got my inhaler I would wake up in the middle of the night and not be able to breathe. It was scary, but sitting over hot water helped me breathe again. If Shannon was suffering from an asthma attack they could have boiled some water, or went to Dr. Sun medicine woman. My whole point was that Jack thought torturing someone to get back an inhaler was a good idea, that he doesn't neccessarily make good decisions, and therefore is not the first one I would trust with four pistols. Besides asthma is usually brought on by air pollution, and being stuck on a tropical island I would think Shannon's asthma would eventually go away.

I'm glad that worked for you, but that does not work for everyone. I used to work in a pediatric office and have been involved with "nebulizing" many asthma sufferers where we would heat up water and make them breathe it in as steam with the drug used in inhalers. There were many times where this did not work and the kids had to be rushed to the ER to be ventilated - and that was steam PLUS the drug.

Interesting how folks are so forgiving of Sawyer for playing hard ball and then when Jack has to do so, he gets criticized. :P
Jack is *human*...One min he's too hero and the next he isn't hero enough.


Ok, I think there's a reason for this (other than Sawyer being so damn cute you just can't hate him). For whatever reason, people love to see a hero fall. Once someone either holds himself out as being a hero or savior, or is given that role by others, people wait for that person to fail, or that least for him to show that he's fallible. On the other hand, Sawyer has never pretended to be someone he's not--he was the resident red-neck jerk from the very beginning, and thus there was no where for his character to go but up. Once a character starts at the bottom, it takes very little for him to begin to be redeemed, but the opposite is also true. I'm not saying it's right or fair, but it seems to be the case here, IMHO.

Ok, I think there's a reason for this (other than Sawyer being so damn cute you just can't hate him). For whatever reason, people love to see a hero fall. Once someone either holds himself out as being a hero or savior, or is given that role by others, people wait for that person to fail, or that least for him to show that he's fallible. On the other hand, Sawyer has never pretended to be someone he's not--he was the resident red-neck jerk from the very beginning, and thus there was no where for his character to go but up. Once a character starts at the bottom, it takes very little for him to begin to be redeemed, but the opposite is also true. I'm not saying it's right or fair, but it seems to be the case here, IMHO.


I agree welsh..... society is obsessed with finding dirt on ppl...I feel weird quoting the Green Goblin but in Spidey he said "more than ppl love a hero is to watch them fail"

It's not like I have a deathwish for Jack or think he's the scum of the universe - and I don't think that all of Sawyer's acts should be excused just because of his past. In Sawyer's case, I believe he has more bark than bite, and even his bark is more like an annoying "yip". But that's besides the point.

I just think it is a very obvious/likely direction for the writers of Lost to go for - Jack really has been set up as the leader from the very beginning, and they do seem to have been hinting at him being a bit unstable what with torture, possible hallucinations, etc. It probably is stress - I doubt Jack would do something horrible if he rationally thought it through, but come on...

Am I the only person who thinks it's a little odd that a Doctor who has been such a bleeding heart as Jack (working himself to "near death", betraying his father as an alcholic etc. for a patient) is suddenely the kind of guy who would go around even joking about what is essentially torture?

No way. So why has he been?

So... while the cause may be stress, good intentions, whatever I don't see it having a good outcome unless something changes. With all the hints at Jack's eventual fall, and the obviousness of a good plotline there, it only seems logical that the writers will have this happen sooner or late. If you're a jackaholic yourself, you don't have to take my comments as some slander against the man. I believe that he's a good guy. I just think that this is the obvious way for the writers to go, and that it might be sooner rather than later.

oh I agree Late..it seems he's going in the direction of a break down but it may be a necessary evil. He tries to handle so much stuff on his own. Really who does he lay his burden on? Kate a little...The guy is grieving for a father that ruined his life, that he now feels responsible for his death and betrayed him. No one should have to deal w/that alone. And on top of it-he's taking care of everyone else.

Jack was playing on Sawyer's terms-that's all. He's not an idiot, he knew, and we could tell as soon as he pointed to the case, Sawyer was not going to give it up w/o a fight. So Jack called his bluff.

The torture wasn't a joke to Jack-he hesitated.But as far as he was concerned it was about doing what it took to get the medicine-periodo. Shannon's life first, consequences later. I still think it went beyond what he expected just like the robbery did for Kate.

I think the writers are trying to show the subtle ways he is like his dad..His father was always hammering away at his self esteem-you don't have what it takes. And now in the wild-where the rules are different, he does have it but just doesn't think so. Thing I love about Jack is he makes no excuses, no justifications for his behavior. He isn't saying I had a bad life so that's why I did it. He just takes responsibility for it.

He needs to let it out-so he can release some of his pain. Unlike Sawyer he's kept it bottled up. Jack learns from his mistakes-he gets beat down, gets back up. So he won't be down for count very long.

[i]"I think he was playing it safe by not wanting Sawyer to have the case. We've already seen what Sawyer can do with a gun."</i>

Shoot a bear and potentially save all their lives?

[i]"I think he was playing it safe by not wanting Sawyer to have the case. We've already seen what Sawyer can do with a gun."</i>

Shoot a bear and potentially save all their lives?

Shoot a guy in his chest to put him out of his misery :lol2:

I got the same impression (teh) but at the same time I thought how Jack is really playing his power to the hilt. First torture and then this? *Maybe he is here to prove to himself that he has some power. *Afterall his relationship with his father was anything but powerful. *It seemed like his father was always putting him down or making a fool out of him.

Also to the poster that said asthma medication and/or inhalers are not that big of deal, I beg to differ. *Depriving an asmatic of their inhaler in an emergency situation such as this could result in the death of the afflicted. *I know, I have chronic asthma and have been in the hospital for it (almost died). *So just want yall to know that asthma is a big deal. *

Now....does anyone know why Jack didn't re-bury the Marshall? *Or even why he didn't burn the Marshall's body?

Jack and Sawyer had a stare down contest. Jack knew Sawyer wouldn't just give him the case so he played by Sawyer's rules. In a way, it made it easier for Sawyer to give him the thing since this way he does not have to appear weak. Jack appealed to his self-interest and let it be a barter between them, not a sign of generosity for Sawyer.

He got what he wanted and let Sawyer still be Sawyer. Like saving face. If anyone asked, he could say Jack forced him not that he was being nice.

People do make excuses for Sawyer but as we have seen, Jack didn't have a great childhood either and he isn't a con man. Sawyer is the way he is by choice. Bad childhood only grants you so much leaway.

I have excercise induced asthma so mine kicks in from activity, not pollution. It is still no fun and can be very dangerous. Asthma can scar your lungs, somehting that can not be reversed.

Oh, and whoever wrote it..
The end NEVER justifies the means.
That's like saying it doesn't matter how you win (lie, cheat, steal, hurt someone) as long as you win.

How you achieve something speaks more to a person's character than the achievement itself.

I got the same impression (teh) but at the same time I thought how Jack is really playing his power to the hilt. First torture and then this? Maybe he is here to prove to himself that he has some power. Afterall his relationship with his father was anything but powerful. It seemed like his father was always putting him down or making a fool out of him.

Now....does anyone know why Jack didn't re-bury the Marshall? Or even why he didn't burn the Marshall's body?


Re: Jack and his dad. Thinking about it, I realized Jack pulled the rug from under his dad even though it cost Jack alot. In other words, Jack had already proved himself by doing that, being alphamale over Sawyer is child's play compared to the high stress situation Jack had already been through. So maybe we are reading Jack wrong, he isn't a reluctant guy dragged into leadership, maybe he likes the power. But maybe he likes to pretend like he doesn't want it to camouflage his true self, which is consistent with everyone on that show hiding who they really are. Does this mean I think Jack would have denied the medicine to Sawyer? No, because in this new way of looking at it, Jack knew he had outplayed Sawyer, he KNEW Sawyer would hand over the case-because Jack is the topdog and had demanded it. It would never have come to Jack having to withhold meds. The medicine is a metaphor for the pecking order in their 'pack'. Sawyer has no position over Jack, he has nothing Jack wants or needs, but Jack controls something Sawyer needs. Sawyer had the case but that case wasn't even for Jack, it was for Jack to give to the alphafemale(Kate), the female that the Sawyerdog wants to mate with. Consider the ramifications of THAT.

I'm assuming Jack reburied the Marshal's corpse off camera later. In my opinion there's nothing about doing that requiring that it be shown, no drama or anything.

Re: Jack and his dad. Thinking about it, I realized Jack pulled the rug from under his dad even though it cost Jack alot. In other words, Jack had already proved himself by doing that

Oh I disagree, I think the effects that have been shown on Jack in his flashback episodes show that just because Daddy is dead doesn't mean the effect on Jack's life is gone. And just because Jack turned his father in doesn't mean that his father still didn't have emotional power over him. It's not as easy as that. And that's the whole sad thing, when it's something like parental emotional abuse, it can be such a part of a person that it actually affects how they view the world. It may seem like Jack obviously is top dog, he obviously got one over on his father but in Jack's emotional world view, he's still the same kid who didn't have what it took, who is always teetering on the verge of catastrophic failure, whose success only can come at the hands of his father's machinations, his molding him from soft metal into steel.

It was zero about power on Jack's part....He was trying to save a life and saw it as the only way to get Sawyer to talk... He wasn't doing it to get a rise. And that had nothing to do w/using his leader status. Sayid could have gotten ayone to help.

He buried the Marshal because as a doctor he saves lives, not takes them. I'm sure it's the first time he's had to kill someone in mercy w/his bare hands. So it was vey sentimental for him and he needed to bury him to pay respect and acknowledge what he did.

Bansh, you ARE my hero! :lol2:

thanks bw as long as you're not pulling my chain ;) :D

If Shannons asthma was so bad would not she have been carring one with her?
Again amazing on the whole plane nobody else had an inhaler.

If Shannons asthma was so bad would not she have been carring one with her?
Again amazing on the whole plane nobody else had an inhaler.


Boone said she had one but used it up. hat's why he had the spares. I would have had one in carry on, myself.

Trust with guns? Sawyer already had a gun for a while and did not attempt to control the others with it. He killed a bear (unbelievable feat with a 9mm) and he attempted a mercy killing but has also shown a selfish streak. Jack has hallucinations and did complete a mercy killing. *Kate had the first gun for a while and removed the ammo to keep others from using it. She has not tried to control others on the island despite her questionable pre-island actions. She also passed up an opportunity to protect her secret by killing the already dying Marshal - so of those 3, I would trust Kate more despite her past. But that is a shakey trust.

The others? Jin has used violent behavior against a fellow castaway and only Sun can communicate with him. Would you trust someone you cannot communicate with who has attacked another person in front of you? Sun - has been lying to the others by concealing her English language skills and the others do not know they can communicate with her. Walt is an immature kid. Boone stole the water showing poor judgment despite good intentions. Shannon up until now has been self involved. Rose umm she may have faith that her husband is alive but it could also be denial of reality. Charley is a drug addict on withdrawal and grieving for what happened to Claire. Michael, is a possible choice since he has not shown aggressive tendencies towards anyone else. Locke? Well up until the guns arrived he had weapons superiority over the others and only used the knives for supporting the group effort. However he has particapated in concealing the truth of their situation from the others as have Michael, Kate, Sawyer & Jack. *Sayid? if we hold the torture of Sawyer against Jack as a reason for Jack not having power, we should do the same for Sayid. Although I would personally trust Sayid over Jack. *hurley? seems too open to manipulation by others.

You know I don't think any of these people should be trusted with the guns. ;D

Anyone with an inhaler would not have brought a lifetime supply in carry-on luggage. And Sawyer had already taken and stashed anything he thought might have value which is why they thought he had the inhalers anyhow (him having the book just made Boone think that their luggage was part of what Sawyer had gone through).

Kate had the first gun for a while and removed the ammo to keep others from using it. She has not tried to control others on the island despite her questionable pre-island actions.

I love Kate and all, but that is a load of malarky. LOL. She has manipulated Jack and Sawyer both. A few times. More Jack than Sawyer. I'd include Sayid in this list as well, and I think she'll use it to her advantage later on down the line. She has Sawyer wrapped around her little finger. Jack was pretty well hitched on there, too, until the recent events. I think both men are starting to realize that she had them both fooled. Maybe she felt like she had to do it to protect herself, but it doesn't change the fact that she still did it.

As for all this nonsense about hate the hero/love the zero... God forbid someone root for someone with potential. I mean, Jack's ability has been shown over and over and OVER. Sawyer's potential to be a stand up guy and a bit of a hero himself has yet to be explored. I'm always interested in someone who is rough around the edges, but shows potential. Perhaps that's why my personal relationships have been so... strenuous, lol. The fact is, I like Jack. I just think it's silly to herald him as this savior of the survivors. He's got just as many issues as Sawyer, and has shown a tendency as of late to play just as dirty. The difference being that he uses the excuse of good to do the bad. Sawyer just does the bad because he wants to. The end does not justify the means. Someone else said that and I absolutely agree. God bless La Femme Nikita for teaching me that much, lol. Jack reminds me of Section One. His ends were just, but his means were ruthless... if you don't play by his rules, you die. *snerk*

[quote author=waywardwanderer link=topic=2863.msg43856#msg43856 date=1105171486]
I love Kate and all, but that is a load of malarky. LOL. She has manipulated Jack and Sawyer both. A few times. More Jack than Sawyer.. Jack was pretty well hitched on there, too, until the recent events. I think both men are starting to realize that she had them both fooled. Maybe she felt like she had to do it to protect herself, but it doesn't change the fact that she still did it.

Rt from Tabula Rasa, he had no illusions about who she could be, he just didn't judge her for it. Gave her the benefit of the doubt. & when he found out more from the Marshal, he kept quiet & gave her a chance to say something....He knew the min she suggested the case be dug up, that she was possibly lying the guns were all there were. It's why he asked to be present for it to be opened. He didn't fall for the key, & even after he had almost been deceived-he was being a man of his word to get the case and open it w/her.... He made sure she knew where she stood w/what she did..Sawyer is in it blind. He has no idea who she is. I'm not saying Kate hasn't been manipulative, I just don't think Jack has been oblivious to it. First thing he says when she walks up is-we have a problem, or you have a problem.

<As for all this nonsense about hate the hero/love the zero... God forbid someone root for someone with potential. I mean, Jack's ability has been shown over and over and OVER. >

I don't consider it nonsense because I've seen Jack get harshly criticized for both his good/mistakes & Sawyer get very easily forgiven/commended on a repeated basis.... So Sawyer has potential for redemption, Jack has potential for mistakes and flaws. They're starting at different points due to their architypes.. We've seen Sawyer shoot bears, Marshal's in mercy, give things over to Claire, Hurley, Kate, help Sayid w/Jin and Michael,* shoot off the flair, make an effort to be social in Solitary, & be charming to Kate, Walt,*and seen him be falsely accused enough times where his potential redemption is almost as frequent as Jack's hero ability-relative to each of their screen time..Sawyer makes a mistake-he's misunderstood he's not all bad, does a good deed-see he's a good guy. Jack rescues someone-he's SuperJack, he participates in torture for a desperate measure-he's a bad leader/person. No one's saying (at least me ;) ) that Jack isn't flawed, opposite actually, but if Sawyer is to be given such leeway no matter what way he goes-right/wrong, so should Jack. Heaven forbid ;) someone support a guy who's earned respect & the benefit of the doubt in any falls from grace & in re-rising to redemption. Jack isn't a plateau of heroics. In many ways I think he is the most human character because we all struggle w/walking the fine line of trying to regularly be a good person but being able to fall and exercise bad judgement at any moment.

ITA he has issues, but he hasn't made any excuses or justifications for his actions. It's one of things I like about him. He doesn't try to say I had a bad day, a bad life so this is why I did X,Y,Z. He's- I did it, not proud of it, but I'm not going to backpeddle and blame it on someone else. He just plain takes responsiblity.

Absolute, banshee. In fact I think you'd find very few "Jack fans" would ever think Jack's perfect. We like him because of his flaws. It's the "hero haters" who seem to on the one hand refuse to see them("Oh he's Mr Perfect") and on the other hand give him no leeway to make mistakes("Oh my god, see, he's a terrible person, he's a terrible leader, he isn't to be trusted....").

I think Jack is the most human of all the characters. And I think he's one of the most complex, easily one of the most complex. He's got issues but he tries to not let them keep him from doing what needs to be done for his community. Sure he slips up from time to time but he's at least trying to do what is right. I'd rather have someone who is trying to do what is right most of the time and who slips ups occassionally than someone who only does what's right when they don't have anything better to do(like lounge around on the beach, etc). Jack's slipped up but it's been because he's at least been trying to help people.

That doesn't make him the savior and I don't think you'd find many people who think that--in fact again, it's only the "hero haters"(so called :) ) who seem to feel he's supposed to be viewed that way. I think he's just supposed to be showing how very very difficult it is to be put into the position he's found himself in, in a very human way. Jack's "ability" hasn't been shown over and over again. What has been shown is how difficult it is to make these kinds of decisions and how sometimes finding the right solution isn't easy just because someone has decided "Hey we like you, you be the leader and take on that responsibity", he hasn't suddenly been gifted to know all the right answers overnight and he's made mistakes. Worse than that, it's going to be forcing him to confront all his demons from his past, because his father constantly berated and brow beat him that he didn't wasn't good enough and he didn't have what it took and he was weak, etc, etc. So it isn't even just the average "Uh oh I'm not ready for this", its actually something that his father actively put into his head all his life he wasn't good enough to be.

Certain viewers seem to hold everything against him, he can do no right. He does something good it's "Oh he's so perfect and heroic, ewww", he makes a mistake "it's see I knew it, he's really just a loser, he's worse than anyone else on the island".

So why are his mistakes so unforgiveable, why don't his good deeds give him some points(as Hurley might say) but instead they seem to count against him when the going gets difficult. It's ridiculous.

Banshee I love everything that you said....*hugs*

Seriously, how can Jack be criticized for playing Sawyers little game to get a case full of guns away from him??? As Bansh already posted, Jack gives Sawyer the meds (it just wasnt shown due to time limitations) He had NO intention of withholding the meds, he merely said it so Sawyer would hand over the case....even sawyer knew Jack would never do that...I mean come on Jack could have let Sawyer die and he didnt even though Sawyer was being an a**. And of course Jack isnt perfect, he isnt supposed to be. Yea he originally agreed to let sayid mess with Sawyer, but he thought it was just going to be a scare tactic, as soon as Sayid starting inflicting pain on sawyer, Jack got uncomfortable and proceeded to tell Sayid to stop....to me it seems like people think that Jack was the one doing all the torturing...geez.....I mean Sayid could have done it on his own, he just asked jack for help because Jack already knew what was going on....

It seems to me that any time Jack has "slipped" up its been for the good of someone else, or the whole group. He's never done anything for his own personal gain, which is more than we can say for most characters. Again not trying to say Jack is the all perfect hero....hes not, he's dealing with a lot and trying to be a good person and keep everyone safe at the same time.Its a lot to handle for one person and yea I think he will have a break down and people will jump all over that as well and say he's weak....well I just say he's human.

As for the gun debate, I think I would let Kate have them. Yes she has a criminal past, but no one but Jack really knows that. And from what he and everyone else has seen on the island she has never tried to harm anyone (besides her slapping and headbutting sawyer, both of which he deserved) and she seems to be the most sane right now. Yes she has been lying about things but that doesnt mean shes going to whip out the gun and go on a shooting rage. And as we the viewers have seen, shes pretty good with a gun, if things went bad on the island, I'd want her to have the weapons...

Ok thats all for now ;D

So why are his mistakes so unforgiveable, why don't his good deeds give him some points(as Hurley might say) but instead they seem to count against him when the going gets difficult. *It's ridiculous.

I find this statement insanely ironic. You say that most Jack fans dont' say that he's perfect, so it's stupid that hero haters keep saying they do. Yet you just sat there and said that for the most part, said hero haters say that Jack's actions are so unforgiveable. I don't believe anyone has said that, either. Both sides of this argument are just as prone to exaggeration. I've never said Sawyer was an upstanding citizen. Just that he has the potential to be. I've never said Jack was a cruel and heartles bastard. Just that he has the potential to be. The fact is, everyone has both sides of those coins in them. I know this, and so do most of the people on this board. Yes there are a few fanatics who will say that Sawyer can do no wrong, or that Jack is evil incarnate. Those are few and far between. In the big scheme of things I've only seen a handful of those. MY earlier response wasn't to those. There's no way to respond to those, because those people aren't going to debate in a civil manner. Their opinion can't be swayed, nor should they have to be. An opinion is just that.

This. This right here is exactly what the writers want. Fans are split between the 'hero', Jack, and the 'anti-hero', Sawyer. I'll site a perfect example. Any wrestling fan should be able to get this one. Stone Cold Steve Austin. The character was a loud, obnoxious, coarse, beer drinking redneck who'd just as soon kick you *** than look at you. *coughsawyercough* Then you had The Rock. Handsome, smart, witty, uber talented, jack-of-all-trades. (Pun FULLY intended) During this time, people liked The Rock. He had flaws (like he only did three moves... lol), but the fans were ok with that. And then came Austin, waving his middle finger around and just being generally disruptive. And just like that, a huge majority of wrestling fans began hating the Rock and loving Steve Austin. Austin should have been hated. He was rude, foul mouthed and constantly berating people. Yet, he became THE most popular WWF superstar, possibly in history. And just as easily, The Rock became the most hated. Were there people who still loved him and cheered for him? Yes. But it wasn't the same once they were pitted against each other. Despite all that was good about the 'hero', the 'anti-hero' became the one the fans rallied behind.

Austin = Sawyer
Rock = Jack

The fact is, Jack has done a lot of good. But the few bad things he's done have been BAD. Not just, oh well, not a big deal bad. I'm talking...le ick bad. This is why people are like, if he's so good, why is he doing some pretty awful things?

Sawyer has done plenty of bad things as well. Yes, he should have told them he didn't have the inhalers. Knowing Shannon's life was at risk and not doing anything about it was shameful. I understand it... but that doesn't make it right. No one has said Sawyer is a saint. No one has said Jack is the devil. It's all about shades of grey. In a show that seems predominately black and white, there seems to be two people who stand firmly in the middle. (Ok, maybe three if you count Kate... which is another debate entirely) *

And since there was another post while I was typing this up...

Jack gives Sawyer the meds (it just wasnt shown due to time limitations)
Yup. This was AFTER he had the case, though. There is no way we could know that Jack would have given him the meds had Sawyer not given up the case.

He's never done anything for his own personal gain
Yeah being all up in Kate's business was all for the well being of the group...

I'm getting weary of going round and round* :P though it is interesting ;) My only point was that whether Jack does something good or flawed he gets raked over the coals. And if Sawyer does something good or bad, he gets forgiven easily and commended. So if Sawyer should get that leeway in either direction, so should Jack because he has earned the benefit of the doubt...Doesn't matter if Jack's 2 bad things were "bad", Sawyer has a collective history. Jack was an *accomplice* to torture-he wasn't sticking the reeds under his nails. On that token Kate could be considered an accomplice because not only did she see them drag Sawyer off, she was within earshot, AND she had the opportunity alone w/Sawyer to set him free, but she walked off. And a maybe empty maybe not threat-ooo ;) . Sawyer said he'd watch Jack die...Track record also speaks in Jack's favor he wouldn't have withheld the meds because
after Sawyer said that and told him Kate and him made out, he could have gotten po'd & let go of his artery. Not only did he treat him anyway, but he came to the beach to change his bandages..He ran around w/a 12in gash in his side in the pilot treating everyone else before he treated himself...

I don't disagree w/ya wayward-the writers wanted Jack and Sawyer to be juxtaposed against each other. Otherwise their "triangle" and the tensions between the 2 wouldn't have any validity. I still find there to be a findamental difference between the 2 regardless of they both have potential to be flawed or good... Ultimately, Jack's motives for his bad deeds are unselfish, and Sawyer's aren't-that counts w/me.

Being all up in Kate's business is because *Kate* came to him for help and told him everything. Asked him to dig up the body of a man he buried in sentiment. Kudos if you would just agree to exhuming a man no questions asked and not want to see why....The 2nd time he wanted to know what was in the case-after she deceived him, was because he wanted to know *why* she would hurt him like that. He got the case in part a favor for her, and in part because he wanted to know that. He didn't have to let her open it w/him-he had the key-could have just walked off w/it, but he promised. I don't consider finding out the reason you were lied to and asked to dig someone up personal gain. Using a girl's asthma condition to emotionally coerce someone into a kiss is personal gain.

Kate is Jack's one indulgence, to which he's barely allowed himself. He has chosen duty and responsibility w/his position over his love life from day one, unlike Sawyer. So much so it prompted ppl to say why isn't he flirting as much w/her, or he's not into her because he's too busy helping ppl survive. I think Jack needs to be a little more personally selfish because putting everyone first is undermining his own efforts. I think MF is dead on and what we're seeing is Jack having to be more like Sawyer to get things done and vice vs.

In my view Kate manipulating others was to gain something she wanted not to gain control of the group. She has made frequent efforts to support the group. Sawyer has manipulated people only for personal gain. I do not expect Jack to be perfect and never make mistakes. I do dislike his attitude that he knows best in almost every situation. Jack has also been attempting to manipulate others and is the de facto leader of the group. *You can call it manipulation or persuasion or leadership or threatening etc, doesn't matter to me. He has good motives but he also assumes too often that his view must be the right one and he suffers hallucinations. Those traits make me leery of giving him my complete trust as a leader. I do not hold manipulation of others against any of these characters. My point in a prior post was meant to show that Kate was not attempting to gain control of the group i.e. did not want to be the leader which in my mind makes her more trustworthy to hold the implements (guns) that would in the wrong hands allow a person to gain forcible control over the group. She is not driven to be the leader Jack is driven. She is not as selfish as Sawyer and is more level headed than Jack. If I had to trust one of those 3 it would be Kate.

Personally I would parcel out the 4 guns to Sayid, Kate, Locke and Michael. *

Jacks mistakes are held against him more than Sawyer's mistakes are held against him because Jack presents himself as acting to a higher standard. Jack when he falls, falls from a self inflicted pedestal. It is similar to the slapstick humor of showing some over dressed pompous person slip on a banana peel. We are allowed to feel superior (even if we are not) and jeer at them. *Sawyer is more predictable because he admits to acting for self-interest first and foremost. *We cheer when someone like Sawyer rises above our expectations. I think what I like about Sayid, Kate and even Shannon over Jack is that they may be more cognizant of their own shortcomings.

. Jack has also been attempting to manipulate others and is the de facto leader of the group.* You can call it manipulation or persuasion or leadership or threatening etc, doesn't matter to me. He has good motives but he also assumes too often that his view must be the right one and he suffers hallucinations.

sorry Fogey I can't agree at all* :-\ ....Ppl have basically elected Jack as the leader of the group, he has not manipulated his position. His actions, his skills, his assets earned him the respect of the group to the point he had to say to Locke-"why me, why do they want me as leader?" to which Locke responded yet they all treat you like one. That's being aware of his shortcomings (unlike his dad who's arrogance made operate under the influence) Jack is underestimating himself.. They are all seeking him out to solve problems... Jack only butted heads w/Locke about searching for C/C because Locke was taking the stance of his father-go be the doctor-you don't have what it takes to be out here searching. I like Locke but he even passively aggressively made fun of Jack* "Good thing you're going in a circle....Not much of a search grid but we would have never found you otherwise." Why, cause he wanted to be the hunter.

But Jack recognizes ppls strengths and weaknessess and what makes him a good leader-is he steps aside, except for that time w/Locke, and has let a leader pro tempore take over. Locke for the hunts, Sayid w/electronics, Michael w//the construction, Kate's tracking. He didn't try to take credit for getting them out of the caves-he made sure ppl knew it was Charlie...The golf course-he acknowledged Hurley....And the biggest example-as a doctor, trained and seasoned-his ego should be huge in thinking he knows it all-yet he's *listening* and respecting Sun's knowledge of hollistic medicine....He made a decision no one else could-to burn the Fuselage-for the good of the group. There was no two ways around that, it was necessary... He was thinking practically w/the caves and just told ppl-there's fresh water, it'll be easier for you to survive, but no one was forced to go.

Higher standards are continually demanded of Jack. His parents did it to him _all_ the time. He's trying to not let ppl down and be responsible, plus he's just a good guy, but what it amounts to is the ones always doing favors for others are taken for granted. You let one person cut in line on the highway, everyone else takes advantage of you. And then when you set a limit, they forget what you've done and kick you in the teeth. He has the thankless job on the island and deserves some wiggle room.

despite the disagreement, I do appreciate everyone's civil and constructive debate* :)

sorry Fogey I can't agree at all What! Not even about the hallucinations! :lol2:

Leadership is manipulating/persuading people to do something. Without Jack's actions in persuasion/manipulation, all of the group would still be at the beach and possibly no one, except Jack, would be at the caves. Manipulation of people can be either good or bad. The ability to direct the actions of others is a part of Jack. How he uses that ability has moral implications: The presence of that ability in Jack does not.

I agree Jack was chosen leader that is why I called him the de facto leader. But Jack's assumption of a leadership role is what lead to him becoming the leader. It was not a random event. He chose his actions and leadership is the result.* Higher standards are demanded of Jack because he presents himself as having higher standards. Sawyer presents himself as having lower standards so people interpret & misinterpret his actions based on the view he has given them of his standards.

We do disagree on Jack's abilities to delegate responsibility (not activity, responsibility) and to quickly recognize when he is the one in error. I am saying he is usually right, but I do not feel he is right as often as he believes he is. Perfection is not one of his flaws. ;)

Couldnt have said it better myself bansh!

But Jack's assumption of a leadership role is what lead to him becoming the leader. It was not a random event. He chose his actions and leadership is the result.


I semi disagree Fogey....assuming I interpreted what you said correctly... ;)

You said he chose his actions...I assume you mean the actions of trying to help as many people as possible right after the crash which resulted in his leadership. My question is how could he have chosen NOT to help? He's a doctor and in situations like that you are required to help.....its not really a choice....(i know this is a tenuous line I'm crossing) I cant really explain more what I'm mean because I'm honestly not sure how to! But yea I just dont believe that Jack chose his actions, he just went and did what was required of him given his skills in the situation.......

Ok well I get what I'm saying, lol not sure if anyone else will

Couldnt have said it better myself bansh!
I semi disagree Fogey....assuming I interpreted what you said correctly... ;)

You said he chose his actions...I assume you mean the actions of trying to help as many people as possible right after the crash which resulted in his leadership. My question is how could he have chosen NOT to help? He's a doctor and in situations like that you are required to help.....its not really a choice....(i know this is a tenuous line I'm crossing) I cant really explain more what I'm mean because I'm honestly not sure how to! But yea I just dont believe that Jack chose his actions, he just went and did what was required of him given his skills in the situation.......

Ok well I get what I'm saying, lol not sure if anyone else will
Your point makes sense to me. So granted Jack had to provide medical help (although his doctor daddy might have done different) But Jack went beyond medical care in his assumptions of responsibility. After the crash several people, not just Jack, did everything they could to help others. Locke helped people and he went hunting for food since he was suited for that just as Jack was suited for giving medical aid. But Locke did not become the leader.* Jack did not confine himself to taking required medical care of the injured. He stood up and said in so many words all right people here is what we do. He assumed command/responsibility and took the leadership role. I suspect his daddy would have just done the medical assistance and no more. I am saying that Jack chose to accept responsibility for what happened to others (beyond medical) and this action is what brought the leadership mantle to his shoulders. He may very well have not recognised that he was setting himself up as the leader.

It could be argued that his personality required him to help others just as in the flash back where he helped the kid the bullies were picking on. An action his medically trained father disagreed with. I guess we are considering whether Jack was really free to choose not* to be the leader. If* Sawyer were a doctor, I could see him giving first aid at the crash and then taking no other responsibility or leadership role.

Am I talking in circles and killing my own point?

Without Jack's actions in persuasion/manipulation, all of the group would still be at the beach and possibly no one, except Jack, would be at the caves. Manipulation of people can be either good or bad. The ability to direct the actions of others is a part of Jack. How he uses that ability has moral implications: The presence of that ability in Jack does not.
Persuasion and manipulation are 2 different things.
a : the act or process or an instance of persuading b : a persuading argument c : the ability to persuade
manipulation:
: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

Persuasion leaves the option of choice. In order to be persuaded one must see validity in the arguement being made. Manipulation is the dishonest twisting of the truth so the choice is taken away from the person....Nothing Jack did to persuade ppl to move to the caves was unfair, insidious, or underhanded. He presented the facts. The caves had fresh water, a survival necessity, and natural shelter, it'll be easier to survive. Ppl made up their own minds if they wanted to go.

I'm a little disturbed by your defintion of a leader *:blink: ...A leader is someone who should be looking out for the best interests of the group, not someone who's decisions/suggestions are governed by selfish motive. A leader should guide them in a direction of prosperity and progress representative of the group's values and purpose. Sometimes yes that means persuading them to do something that may be better for them w/o them necessarily being aware of that. However, someone who manipulates for their agenda borders on totalitarianism or dictatorship. *I'm not saying leadership is cut and dry, what is they say sometimes it isn't always better to tell the truth...and I'm sure we could find plenty of examples..However in the case of the caves, Jack said it himself-ppl were soooooo wrapped up and hopeful they'd be rescued, they weren't thinking realistically and practically "They're not considering their own safety." And that's what happens when ppl become blinded by denial... Sayid and Kate couldn't make the tough choice to burn the Fuselage because they were allowing their emotions to cloud their judgement, not thinking logically. Jack wasn't cold hearted, he was pragmatic. . He's not abusing his position/power is my point. He honestly and sincerely looks out for everyone's well being.

gah-you guys always add things rt after I post ;) ....I think Jack's training as a doctor has it engrained upon him he needs to save lives-call it his professional conscience. However, only to a degree is his heroism a product of that. He isn't required as a doc, especially a spinal surgeon, to continually put his life in danger for others. So I'd say his training substantiates/supports his personal* motives of which are just being a selfless good guy, driven to save ppl in a palpable way when he couldn't emotionally or physically save his father, or even himself from the hurt his father caused him. And they say Jack isn't complex* ::)* ;)


Oh btw yeah I can agree about the hallucinations ;) We don't know though if that was the island's way of leading all the horse to water-ba dum bum. *::) LOL *:laugh: Ah hell it was a slice Fogey* :D

A leader is someone who should be looking out for the best interests of the group, not someone who's decisions/suggestions are governed by selfish motive. You defined what a good leader should be. A bad leader could very well lead with an eye towards his/her own gain. Dictators are leaders too. However I don’t think I said Jack acted out of selfish motivation. I was trying to say he sometimes was mistaken when he assumed he knew what was best. I think he is trying to do what he feels is best for the group but he makes mistakes and over assumes responsibility.

Does a "good" leader always use persuasion and never manipulate?
manipulation:
: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

So was threatening to with hold medication Manipulation or Persuasion?
Ditto torture.

Can “One’s purpose” include getting the group into a better survival situation or must “Ones purpose” always be selfish? Can “Ones purpose” coincide with the common good? A selfish motive might be keeping the group alive so Jack will not get lonely. ;) This definition of manipulation does not rule out manipulation for the common good. It contains qualifiers such as ‘or’ & ‘especially’ to indicate that unfair/insidious means are often used for manipulation. I think Jack was being artful when he persuaded them to move to the caves by manipulating them with their fear of thirst ;D

To me, persuasion and manipulation appear to slightly overlap rather than being 2 completely separate things. But this is spinning off in the wrong direction. I was not intending to define leadership or misdefine manipulation. I wanted to point out that Jack's reactions to the situation lead to his becoming the leader. It was not a random event, it was fostered by his chosen behavior. Although based on some of the responses, I will grant that he may not be able to fully choose his behavior, as it is part of his basic makeup to act the way he does. Hmm same excuse applies to Sawyer & Kate etc.

ah Fogster you're wearing me out LOL ;)

does a good leader never use manipulation and only persuasion?
I think this is subjective and in my opinion absolutely. I wouldn't personally feel right with a decision that was needing manipulation in order to sell it. Kinda like if you can't decide if you should buy something, you shouldn't buy it. (to quote Oprah-LOL)

<So was threatening to with hold medication Manipulation or Persuasion?
Ditto torture. >

Persuasion* ;D I think Sawyer knew it was a bluff , but none the less was persuaded the threat could be true. And if it was, it couldn't be a manipulation because he wasn't lying. ;) I have lil doubt his "makeup" would not allow him to withhold the meds.

< I think Jack was being artful when he persuaded them to move to the caves by manipulating them with their fear of thirst* >LOL!!!! Ok well, they could have argued they pee less without water.* ;D

* Although based on some of the responses, I will grant that he may not be able to fully choose his behavior, as it is part of his basic makeup to act the way he does. Hmm same excuse applies to Sawyer & Kate etc.
Aren't all the characters either consciously or subconsciously prone to certain behavior based on their makeups?At what point does a person get held accountable for their actions relative to their makeup over someone else?This is the paradox the judicial system is faced with except the castaways are in a non law enforced enviroment......Sawyer's character represents the hypocricy of society. From fans perspectives-I think many see him as a victim of his circumstances-misunderstood, as he has portrayed himself to be, and Jack has just dealt & tried to be a contributor to society vs. a victim of it, so ppl expect more of him. Therefore when he messes up-he's held harshly accountable, and when he does something good, it's taken for granted because it's expected of him. You said something similar, but alas my last brain cell has crapped out* :P All I know is it's a double standard.

Sawyer's character represents the hypocricy of society. From fans perspectives-I think many see him as a victim of his circumstances-misunderstood, as he has portrayed himself to be, and Jack has just dealt & tried to be a contributor to society vs. a victim of it, so ppl expect more of him. Therefore when he messes up-he's held harshly accountable, and when he does something good, it's taken for granted because it's expected of him. You said something similar, but alas my last brain cell has crapped out :P All I know is it's a double standard.


I basically think that, yes, they should be held up to the same standards. And what I mean by that, is Sawyer's lying about having the medication as bad as Jack's (perhaps) lying about taking away Sawyer's meds?

It seems like too many people are able to dismiss Jack's faults becausae Sawyer has done the same thing, but not willing to condem Jack for doing things that Sawyer has also done and recieved flak for. The system does and should works both ways.

Late, I don't quite follow, or maybe I misunderstood* :P -but my point is ppl do not dismiss Jack's flaws, and they are very willing to condemn him for doing similar things as Sawyer, but Sawyer is the one easily forgiven. Jack gets more flak from what I've witnessed over a collectivity of sites, whether what he does is good or bad.

Late, I don't quite follow, or maybe I misunderstood :P -but my point is ppl do not dismiss Jack's flaws, and they are very willing to condemn him for doing similar things as Sawyer, to which Sawyer is the one easily forgiven. Jack gets more flak from what I've seen whether what he does is good or bad.


Oh, sorry :D Sometimes what I'm thinking doesn't really come out the way I want.

Basically, I'm agreeing with you. I think people should try and look at the character's acts as what they are, instead of judging based on however many other good or bad things they did. So, if Sawyer all of a sudden started shooting up people he shouldn't get more or less flak than Jack would for doing the same thing, and vice versa.

And I agree, Jack does have it bad in some posts, but as evidenced by this thread there are plenty of others willing to defend his actions. I think it just depends on who you are asking.

gotcha Late ;D , glad we cleared that up-I thought I was going wiggy :P ;) :D

I think people should try and look at the character's acts as what they are, instead of judging based on however many other good or bad things they did. So, if Sawyer all of a sudden started shooting up people he shouldn't get more or less flak than Jack would for doing the same thing, and vice versa.
That is the way it should be, but it never will be. Our perception of an event includes our understanding of what the participants are like and who they are. Jack has presented himself to us as a do gooder and Sawyer has presented himself to us as a con man who cares for himself first. That mental image stays with us and colors our view of any event they are involved in. If you have 2 card playing friends and one of them had made no effort to hide that he/she cheats while the other had pointed out errors in the count even when they went against him/her, that would have an effect on your view of who was most likely the culprit if the 2 of them were suspects in a crime.

Part of the fun with this show is that they all have a chance for a fresh start in the new society that is being formed. To make the most of that chance they have to throw out old bad habits.

I don't think Jack's heart is in the wrong place, he may believe that he is doing things for the greater good, but the problem is that he makes poor judgement calls. And so if someone has double standards for Jack and Sawyer, that is because Jack needs to be making better decisions as leader of the survivors. For example, the way Jack treats Sawyer is wrong because Sawyer could be a valuable ally for Jack. Let's face it, Sawyer may not be the easiest guy to get along with, well he's an a$$hole, but the guy is like the freakin general store of the island. If you want it, Sawyer has it. And Jack thinks that the best way to get something from him is to act all macho and either a) have him stabbed, or b) threaten to let him die by taking away his medicine. As a leader, Jack should look out for what is best for the group; and that would include sucking it up, putting his testicles aside, and forming a partnership with Sawyer.

* *I don't think Jack's heart is in the wrong place, he may believe that he is doing things for the greater good, but the problem is that he makes poor judgement calls. And so if someone has double standards for Jack and Sawyer, that is because Jack needs to be making better decisions as leader of the survivors. For example, the way Jack treats Sawyer is wrong because Sawyer could be a valuable ally for Jack. Let's face it, Sawyer may not be the easiest guy to get along with, well he's an a$$hole, but the guy is like the freakin general store of the island. If you want it, Sawyer has it. And Jack thinks that the best way to get something from him is to act all macho and either a) have him stabbed, or b) threaten to let him die by taking away his medicine. As a leader, Jack should look out for what is best for the group; and that would include sucking it up, putting his testicles aside, and forming a partnership with Sawyer.

the only bad judgement calls Jack has made as a leader, is accomplicing the torture, and the meds-it was clear Sawyer would not give the case over. Otherwise he has pretty much been alright. He called it rt about the Fuselage,the camp had no idea what to do about the water in WR, coming to blows until Jack came back and told everyone to work together. The caves he was being a good leader in looking out for ppl's basic survival. Medically his judgement has been near dead on. I'm not saying he's been flawless, just that I'd consider him to be decent...Also Jack didn't have Sawyer stabbed. Sayid did that on his own...

Sawyer had it in for Jack before he knew him, & before Kate even came into the picture. Their 1st interaction is the pilot, "whatever you say doc, you're the hero" ..Sawyer starts it rt there after Jack witnessed him fighting w/Sayid, and telling Hurely to "shut up Lardo". If that was just a 1st impression it would be one thing, but Sawyer continues to insult near everyone, hoard the last of the peanuts, and Jack sees him in the Fuselage picking off the dead-to basically sell not share. Then he became jealous of Kate's attention to Jack, & wanted her too. He started to rub any attention Kate gave him in Jack's face. Jack was pretty cool about it for awhile. So I think Sawyer was the 1st to posture his testicles. How long do you put up w/something before you stop being a nice guy about it?So Jack finally started to give Sawyer a taste of his own medicine (no pun intended)LOL ...* :laugh:

Sawyer isn't a dumbell, he was an ace con man. He pack ratted off the dead so ppl would have to come to him for things of worth. It's his way of getting more attention, & holding a power over ppl. If they don't ask just the rt way-they don't get the item. It's making them sorta beg. He's finally learning if he doesn't behave like an ***, he won't get treated like one, from the survivors pov. From the fans pov, at least from what I've read collectively on various sites, Sawyer is like the architypal baby of the Lost family. He gets away w/a lot, and is forgiven very quickly. Plus is paid a lot of attention, especially when he does something rt. Jack is like the oldest child-expected to be super responsible, and not be allowed to mess up.

Sawyer had it in for Jack before he knew him, & before Kate even came into the picture. Their 1st interaction is the pilot, "whatever you say doc, you're the hero" ..Sawyer starts it rt there after Jack witnessed him fighting w/Sayid, and telling Hurely to "shut up Lardo". If that was just a 1st impression it would be one thing, but Sawyer continues to insult near everyone, hoard the last of the peanuts, and Jack sees him in the Fuselage picking off the dead-to basically sell not share. Then he became jealous of Kate's attention to Jack, & wanted her too. He started to rub any attention Kate gave him in Jack's face. Jack was pretty cool about it for awhile. So I think Sawyer was the 1st to posture his testicles. How long do you put up w/something before you stop being a nice guy about it?So Jack finally started to give Sawyer a taste of his own medicine (no pun intended)LOL ... :laugh:

Sawyer isn't a dumbell, he was an ace con man. He pack ratted off the dead so ppl would have to come to him for things of worth. It's his way of getting more attention, & holding a power over ppl. If they don't ask just the rt way-they don't get the item. It's making them sorta beg. He's finally learning if he doesn't behave like an ***, he won't get treated like one, from the survivors pov. From the fans pov, at least from what I've read collectively on various sites, Sawyer is like the architypal baby of the Lost family. He gets away w/a lot, and is forgiven very quickly. Plus is paid a lot of attention, especially when he does something rt. Jack is like the oldest child-expected to be super responsible, and not be allowed to mess up.


Beautifully said! And I'm impressed!! I'm still trying to recharge from all the typing I did yesterday and you're still going!!

But yes, the attention thing with Sawyer is what he's all about. He wants the attention and knows he'll get it if he has what everyone needs. And he resents the fact that Jack is the "man of the island" He really is a petulant child....but I think sawyer and jack are going to learn from eachother. Sawyer will learn how to think of others occasionally and be a bit nicer and Jack will learn that its ok to think about your own needs every so often and maybe flirt with Kate a bit more. ;D

As for Jack and his leadership, again i agree, being an accomplice was the only time he made a poor judgement call....and I really dont think he intended to see it go that far......but with the meds, it was just the quickest way to get sawyer to hand over the case without anyone beating anyone up.

Ok brain still a little mushy....

Some of Jack’s "good judgment calls”:
Using up irreplaceable medicine on a dying patient instead of saving it for someone who could be saved.
Refusing to believe Claire about the attack and trying to get her sedated instead of listening to her.
Panicking over Shannon’s asthma attack and partnering in torture instead of looking for a non-torture solution such as the one Sun found.
Wanting to skip the service which Claire then set up to help the survivors overcome their grief at the deaths on the plane.
Concealing events (the bear, the stones he found, the French broadcast, and etc) from others “for their own good” of course which IMHO shows a certain level of arrogance on his part..
Running off into the woods to chase a hallucination - OK that may not count as a leadership item.

Even if we exclude the torture Jack does not bat 100% - So lets not set him up for failure by expecting him to be a perfect leader. Good entertaining characters show flaws, not perfection. Perfection is boring.

Ahhh Fogey you are quite the battler (its good i enjoy it!!) Ok lets go over what you just said because...well because its fun to debate!


Some of Jack’s "good judgment calls”:
Using up irreplaceable medicine on a dying patient instead of saving it for someone who could be saved.

Ok I saw this as using medicine on a guy in terrible amounts of pain that at the time had a chance because they didnt know they werent going to be rescued within a few days...

Refusing to believe Claire about the attack and trying to get her sedated instead of listening to her.

I dont think it was refusing to believe claire it was thinking logically....she had been having dreams, walking in her sleep, and shes about to have a baby! Shes incredibly stressed and it was quite possible that she was hallucinating....plus Jack didnt find any marks on her stomach to indicate someone was trying to hurt her...and again at that point ethan hadnt tried to hurt anyone so yea i would try to give her a sedative and help her sleep.....some much stress could induce labor

Panicking over Shannon’s asthma attack and partnering in torture instead of looking for a non-torture solution such as the one Sun found.

This one I'll give you, although as someone mentioned before doctors arent trained in hollistic remedies, he knew there were inhalers and shannon needed one....plants did not come to mind

Wanting to skip the service which Claire then set up to help the survivors overcome their grief at the deaths on the plane.

I dont think this has any relevance to his leadership.....he had his own, personal reasons for not wanting to sit through that, perhaps because his father had just died and he wasnt ready to say goodbye like the rest of the survivors

Concealing events (the bear, the stones he found, the French broadcast, and etc) from others “for their own good” of course which IMHO shows a certain level of arrogance on his part..

I believe the group that was there decided not to share with everyone.....and why tell people about the french broadcast?? It will only cause panic...and if memory serves me correct Jack wasnt even there when they listened to the french transmission and shot the polar bear...he didnt decide not to tell people

Running off into the woods to chase a hallucination - OK that may not count as a leadership item.

If you saw your dead father, you might run after him too.....and it did lead him to fresh water.....AND the coffin was empty....so...yea


Ok well thats all I have to say and I agree hes not perfect but some on the* judgement calls you think are bad.....when looked at differently arent really bad at all...I think jacks doing the best he can on this unpredictable island and yea hes not going to be perfect all the time, but personally i think his track record aint really that bad!!* :)

Ok need to eat....byeee

Some of Jack’s "good judgment calls”:
Using up irreplaceable medicine on a* dying patient instead of saving it for someone who could be saved.[quote]

And it was a judgement call most doctors would make.* You can't not use the medicine because you might not have anymore--then no one would get to use it and it sits there going to waste.* Because there was a chance he might pull though so long as he could fight off the infection, which he couldn't do without the medication.* Also they'd still only been on the island for a couple of days--far too soon to give up hope of rescue, even if it was unlikely given how far off course they were.*

Refusing to believe Claire about the attack and trying to get her sedated instead of listening to her.

Already been covered over and over again.* There was absolutely NO proof of an attack.* In fact there still isn't.* It could have been a pre-cognitive dream of some sort.* But anyway, no proof of an attack.* No physical evidence on Claire's person.* An immediate search of the area found nothing.* Jack waited the better part of a day before even going to her to suggest the sedatives.* Most importantly, Claire had just the night before had such a lucid dream, she'd cut open her own palms.* He didn't "refuse" to believe.* There was quite simply no evidence of an attack.* And even if there had been, he'd probably still have suggested the sedatives BECAUSE it was for stress and if she'd been attacked she'd certainly be stressed out about it, whether they believed her or not.

Panicking over Shannon’s asthma attack and partnering in torture instead of looking for a non-torture solution such as the one Sun found.

True an error in judgement BUT it wasn't caused by panic.* You seem to forget that Shannon was like that for a full day before they resorted to "non-verbal" persuasion.* Boone gets beat up day one, Shannon is clearly having difficulty breathing, Jack and then Kate both try to get medicine from Sawyer Boone says he's has, Sawyer does encourages their belief he has the medicine, Night one--Shannon has attack, which Jack is attempting to treat when Sawyer walks into camp, looks unconcernedly in their direction, continues on his way to get water, etc,etc.* Day 2, Shannon has most severe attack yet, Jack decides he's going to get that medicine from Sawyer one way or another because Shannon is suffocating right in front of him.* * He didn't think of eucalyptus, but he's a western doctor not a plant expert--he may well not even have known a eucalyptus plant if he saw it.* More to the point, where's Sun's blame in all this?* She could have done something sooner, went out and gotten the plant on her own, at least a few leaves and shown it to Jack to maybe help "jog" his memory of the possibility.* Instead it was just left up to Jack.* So anyway, Jack's on his way to see Sawyer yet again, maybe to punch him harder this time when Sayid sidles up to him and says "Give me ten minutes".* Jack stopped Sayid pretty quickly, before Sawyer said he'd give them anything.* He made an error in judgement and he did what he could to stop it.* At that point he couldn't anything more than that.* He certainly wasn't in on the stabbing.* That was all Sayid.

Wanting to skip the service which Claire then set up to help the survivors overcome their grief at the deaths on the plane.

How is that a mistake in judgment?* He didn't think it was necessary but was convinced otherwise, as in he was willing to let everyone have their service.* He just didn't want to be part of it.* Big deal, he doesn't need to be part of it if he doesn't want to be.* A good leader doesn't need to come up with every good idea, all he needs to do is to be willing to allow someone else's good idea to take place.*

He didn't listen to Locke once but if he had Charlie would probably be dead right now(as I believe Ethan and whoever would have killed him in any case, he was dead weight to them, they just wanted Claire, there was no reason to let him live and every reason to kill him--he might be able to help lead others to them, etc), Locke wanted everyone to go the other way and everyone would have if Jack hadn't insisted they split up.* So just because he made one rash decision(not waiting for Locke and party to start on the search or as Locke suggest, Jack staying at the camp--so he could play big hunter), his other decisions were correct, despite his emotional state.*

Concealing events (the bear, the stones he found, the French broadcast, and etc) from others “for their own good” of course which IMHO shows a certain level of arrogance on his part..

It wasn't Jack's decision.* Jack simply went along with what Sayid and those ON the actual hike which found the French Broadcast and Bears decision.* It was their decision, Kate just filled him in on it.* So see Jack, the so-called arrogant think he knows best...didn't even think to override the decision they'd come to without him.*

He decided not to mention the pilot but I actually don't think that was an arrogant decision, it wouldn't have done anyone any good at that point to know what had happened to him.* They'd think he was dead in the crash anyway, like the others were.* There was still hope of getting the tranceiver to work and getting off the island at that point.* It had only been a day.* Not much use panicking people at that point.*

Honestly, I think the stones thing is being made to be too big a deal.* I'm sure in the long run they will figure into something important but Jack had no reason to think they would when he found them.* If I found a couple of stones like that my first thought wouldn't be "Wow must tell everyone about these stones, they must be important and MEAN something".* It wouldn't even occur to me.* I'd just think "Hmm...interesting...maybe I'll keep them" and arrogance wouldn't have anything to do with it.* It just wouldn't occur to me that they'd be anything of importance, just something interesting.* I'd assume the person who had them thought they were pretty stones(and kept them because there wasn't much else pretty on that lonely island).

Running off into the woods to chase a hallucination - OK that may not count as a leadership item.

No if anything that was a "running away from leadership" problem. :D* And if you will recall it was LOCKE who said to him, basically, you may not want it, but you've been given it...so it's yours whether you want it or not, now you need to do something with it.

Even if we exclude the torture Jack does not bat 100% - So lets not set him up for failure by expecting him to be a perfect leader. Good entertaining characters show flaws, not perfection. Perfection is boring.

Yes it is but I'm not expecting him to be a perfect leader.* I'm expecting him to be held to reasonable standards and to have all the good he does count for something, instead of actually being held against him.* As though wanting to help in and of itself is a flaw.* Because THAT is exactly what happens.* *

Some of Jack’s "good judgment calls”:
Using up irreplaceable medicine on a dying patient instead of saving it for someone who could be saved.

Except, of course, it wasn't clear that he couldn't be saved until the very end; Jack operated on Day Three, the transmission expedition came back Day Four, the wound went septic that day, he died that night. In other words, at best he used a day and a half of antibiotics, and no more than a dose or two after the expedition came back with evidence that they could be there a damn long time. Yeah, that's a real waste; spending any effort trying to save another person. I'm sure the rescue team and the medical board would have really appreciated his reasoning for not treating the marshal when they turned up, if they had been a normal plane crash instead of on Freaky Island.

Refusing to believe Claire about the attack and trying to get her sedated instead of listening to her.

I will point out that Claire was, in fact, dreaming part of that attack and possibly all of it. Go back and slow motion through that scene; note that when we switch into the 'attack' the view of her sleeping face jumps to a different angle and lighting. And in the parts where she is 'attacked' *she is wearing a different shirt*. White instead of black. Now it may be that she was simultaneously dreaming *and* being attacked, but given that no one saw a thing when woken by her screams, there was no mark on her stomach, and they didn't find any sign when they searched around the camp, it suggests Claire was at best having a Psychic Moment.

Panicking over Shannon’s asthma attack and partnering in torture instead of looking for a non-torture solution such as the one Sun found.

This is the only thing I'd consider a leadership mistake, and then less because of what he did (Sawyer was certainly due that much in karmic balance -- he's the one that decided that violence was the way to go for 'enforcement' of his personal views), but the precedent it set.

Wanting to skip the service which Claire then set up to help the survivors overcome their grief at the deaths on the plane.

He doesn't say that; he just says that he doesn't want to lead it, and that whatever she wants to do with the others is fine. He's a doctor and a secular leader, not a spiritual leader.

Concealing events (the bear, the stones he found, the French broadcast, and etc) from others “for their own good” of course which IMHO shows a certain level of arrogance on his part.

He merely decided not to overrule Sayid on the bear and broadcast, which indicates deference, rather than arrogance. Mind you, I think Sayid's wrong, but Jack isn't trying to decide he knows best for everyone. And really, the stones? Do you think anyone actually *cares* that he found two pebbles? I can just see it... "I've called this camp meeting to show you... THESE ROCKS! daDA!". It's significant to *us* because it feeds into the black/white symbolism we know the writers are using, but it'd be just silly to the people on the island.

Running off into the woods to chase a hallucination - OK that may not count as a leadership item.

He wasn't the leader at the time, at least not accepting the role -- he was at the time furiously trying to avoid it.

Even if we exclude the torture Jack does not bat 100% - So lets not set him up for failure by expecting him to be a perfect leader. Good entertaining characters show flaws, not perfection. Perfection is boring.

I don't expect him to be a perfect leader; he's just the best one they have at the moment. Sayid's shown himself to be too easily manipulated -- compare Locke's manipulation of him over Sawyer to Jack picking up very quickly what Kate was up to. Kate's too dishonest, Sawyer's too selfish, Michael's pleasant but doesn't demonstrate much leadership fu. Hurley is a possibility, except that while he's proved himself very good at the social side of leadership, he hasn't yet proved himself at the tactical side of leadership. That is, Jack's gift for making a decision under extreme stress and emergency, giving orders, and *having people do what he says*. Command voice is a skill that's hard to master.

To add my two cents... ;D

Since Jack has had his own very real hallucinations he had good reason to think Claire was imagining he attack, especially with no sign of the attack.

Jack did not set out to be the leader. He did what he saw needed doing, used his abilities to help people. It was the rest that turned to him and basically chose him as leader. He is not really in control since there are several people who don't go along with him, all those who stayed at the beach, Sawyer, Sayid, Sun & Jin. They are all sort of working together but they don't go to Jack for all things.

Even Hurely took matters into his own hands wth the golf course and all.

Sayid didn't go to the service for the dead since he didn't believe it was right. That was a personal choice, nothing to do with being a leader.

:lol2: Fun responses! I don't pretend to argue that anyone else has shown the willingness or ability to step forward into the overall leadership role at this point. “My Good Judgment Calls” was a reaction to people saying Jack has only made one error in judgment. So I stretched a few points in response. First of all Kate told Jack about the French transmission when the group returned. So he was in on that secret.* I would ask: (pilot ep) Didn’t Jack go wandering around the island looking for the rest of the plane etc before taking time to operate on the Marshal? Was that a good use of critical time where the operation on the Marshal was concerned?* Jack said the Marshal could not be saved unless he found more antibiotics and there was no indication he found those but he continued to medicate the Marshal instead of letting him die a natural death. (OK I would have too – but I am asking wasn’t it a choice that indicates Jack as a leader is not willing to put the welfare of the group ahead of his desire to ease the death of one person?) Jack at that point knew about the French transmission and was not expecting a rescue to arrive at any moment. I recognize his desire to ease the Marshal’s death by continuing to medicate a terminal patient, but they cannot replace the medicines and those medicines could be critical in saving another life. Gasp am I agreeing with Sawyer?* :o* (Sawyer is one person whose life was saved by use of the stash of remaining medicine.)

Judgment call by me - I am leery of placing complete trust in Jack as a leader; partly because of his hallucinations and partly because of my perception that he has difficulty with delegating responsibility (Responsibility not tasks, he delegates tasks).

Another Judgment call by me, I personally would rather have Sayid or Kate as the leader if I were in the group. But I also know that I am arguing against Jack as the leader just for the heck of it. Everyone in the group has strikes against them if we are looking for a world-class leader. You go to Lost Island with what you have, not with what you want to have or some nonsense like that.

Wow. Cool discussion, great character analysis.

I'm sorry to come in so late, I had a very busy end of the week.

First thing I thought of whenI saw this scene was how it relates to my ideas/discussion of Kohlber's Theory of Moral Development and the Heinz Dilemma:

http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=370.0

... in case anybody else is interested in returning to that discussion or spinning off here.

I think Jack's bad judgement call regarding Claire's nightmares, or whatever they are in reality, is really more the way he treated her about them. I'm stealing this from the Television without Pity review of "Raised by Another" (http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/story.cgi?show=136&story=7220&page=5&sort=&limit=) becuase I don't think I could say it any better than the reviewer does.

Jack approaches Claire. He lacks a little something doctors like to call bedside manner, because what he should say is something like: "Hey, I know that attack was as scary as hell and seemed totally real, but pregnant women often have anxiety nightmares that are terrifying and seem real. I know you don't want to hear this, because it was so realistic, but I am pretty certain that's what happened to you. It's nothing to be embarrassed about -- it happens to women in the best of circumstances, and being stuck on an island with a bunch of yahoos and one doctor who despite seeming perfect in every way is actually a lousy leader hardly qualifies as the best of circumstances. I will still make sure you're looked after, and if anyone does try and go after you, I'll make sure we'll get them, but you can feel a little safer now. And to help prevent early labor, I'd suggest you take this sedative." Instead, Jack basically frames the diagnosis in terms of Claire being loopy as a loon and him having to sedate her as a result.

Yeah. Not really the best use of judgement. Just sticking up for the poster who was pointing out some of the mistakes Jack has made - I believe this is a prime example. You can analyze that as what you will, I'm merely laying this out on the table ;)

Next Jack Threat...

Jack: Hand it over, or else!
Sawyer: Or else what, doc?
Jack: Or else... I'll rip your dural sac . I'll shred the base of your spine where all the nerves come together, and they'll spill out like angel hair pasta. Then I'll take those spilled nerves and cook up some Italian.
Sawyer: You jackass.

And we all said yes he knew about the French transmission BUT that group of people(of which there were quite a few mind you) decided it would be best not to mention the bear and transmission. *Jack simply went along with them after the fact. *He let their decision stand. *

Jack didn't remove the metal immediately because in fact medically it is best to leave an embedded object embedded until the individual can be taken to a proper medical facility for it to be surgically removed. *After a couple of days, that point passed, it then became, there was no way he would survive with that piece of shrapnel in him and they couldn't be sure of when or if rescue was coming BUT he might have a chance of surviving if it was removed. *Jack did find antibiotics but they were not terribly strong, that is what he was complaining about. *However they were what he had to treat the man with. *I said that even though Jack knew they were off course and it was probable rescue wouldn't be there soon, it was still too soon to give up all hope of that, even for Jack. * That is what Capt. Shrap signified, the hope of rescue coming soon enough to save him if Jack could keep him alive a little bit longer. ;)

He's a doctor for goodness sake, he did what doctor's do. *Capt. Shrapnel was injured NOW and that is what he had to treat, not what might happen in a future he couldn't predict. *That sort of thinking comes later in his leadership role. *But at this point, it's early, he's certainly not thinking of himself as a leader and in fact we see even after this it's a job he's not at all comfortable with being shoved on him. *Jack at that point,during those first few days, is just pretty much acting on instinct.

Actually Tavella had a good point, Jack's got a "Command Voice" and that isn't something that can easily learned. *In alot of cases it's either something you've got or you don't and it has alot to do with getting people to listen to what you say and carry it out. *That isn't all of course but honestly, thus far, I think Jack's shown himself to be more capable for the job than anyone else has.

RE: *Jack's treatment of Claire's nightmares. *Jack had already had that discussion with Claire when he first asks her about whether she'd ever done this before, etc when she had her lucid nightmare just the night before. *I'm not surprised he'd think she'd remember that seeing as it was only a little over 24 hours earlier. * Jack didn't frame the diagnosis as anything, Claire went off on a fit as soon as he suggested the sedatives, which he only suggested for stress. *He didn't even bring up her nightmares when he brought up the sedatives, she did. Frankly I watched that scene and wondered how the heck she made the jump from "You have been really stressed out and it isn't good so I'd like you to take these very mild sedatives" to thinking she was being called crazy. *Now that, made her seem crazy.

Hell if it was me, I think I'd probably be more than happy to agree with him--"yeah, I mean I just had that bad lucid dream just the night before, right? *This is probably the same thing?Phew what a relief. *" * It's not like he suggested she take the sedative and then go alone into a distant corner of the camp with no one to look out for her. * What seems to be left out of the equation here is that a large part of the reason she got all hysterical because of something Jack had no way of knowing about -- which was the psychic who told her danger surrounded her baby. *

I certainly wouldn't have expected that sort of reaction. *Think about how non-sensical it was, she's afraid for her baby and yet she takes off ALONE into the jungle to get back to the beach? *After she believes someone attacked her in the middle of a crowded camp? *That's just plain stupid. *I've known plenty of pregnant women and despite the stereotype that many women themselves seem to like to play into, the great majority of them do not get stupid and hysterical. *And I've noted the few of them who have ended up in difficult circumstances actually seem to shine best there, they stay manage calmer than anyone around them. *Now none of them have been crash landed on a semi deserted island but still...

How can they say he lacks bedside manner when we've seen him have perfectly fine "bedside" manner with her a day before, not to mention his treatment of some of the other people. *The way he talked to Rose when she was sitting stairing out at the ocean and he just sat with her for hours. *The way he talked to Charlie about his addiction. *Even if we say he didn't handle Claire the best in this situation, that is hardly indicative of his usual bedside manner. *It would be an exception to the rule.

* *

:lol2: Jack go wandering around the island looking for the rest of the plane etc before taking time to operate on the Marshal? Was that a good use of critical time where the operation on the Marshal was concerned?*

woah the good debate continues ;) Firstly, sorry Late but I'm not inclined to put much stock in a TWOP review ;) Complain complain lol..Alrighty Fogster ... ;) My mother was an ER/charge nurse...Jack would have been an idiot to try to remove the shrapnel too soon. At that point, he wouldn't have found everything he needed for a crude surgery of that magnitude. Not to mention it would make more sense to signal for help 1st so he can possibly be operated on in a sanitary environment...Meds-he couldn't just let him die :-\ And like was said, his abdomen didn't go rigid til the 3rd day.. On Fantasy Island, a cut can become deadly so thank god Jack's not so full of himself he disregards Sun's knowledge.. I didn't proport Jack made one error in judgement, I said he made 2 as a leader(I still don't consider his threat to Sawyer a "leader" thing)-the rest extends into his personal/professional judgement.

Another Judgment call by me, I personally would rather have Sayid or Kate as the leader if I were in the group. [quote]
hmmm..this flabbergasts me because the torture was Sayid's idea....I don't find his detox from his ways of a soldier any less potentially problematic than Jack's issues... With Jack it takes a bit to be pushed before he blows, Sayid is more impatient. Kate., skills, but she couldn't burn the Fuselage cause she was emotional vs. practical.... I don't see evidence of Jack having difficulty relegating responsibility, he just isn't a bully about it...He was the one who told everyone to stop being selfish & pitch in.. I recall Jack in the pilot giving duties to Hurley, Locke, & Boone...Oh, & the hallucinations..we still don't know if the island was helpin him out 1st to find the water, & 2nd he heard Claire which led to Charlie.

The girls have deftly covered these points so I'll just touch on them briefly:

<Refusing to believe Claire about the attack and trying to get her sedated instead of listening to her.
Claire was obviously demonstrating signs of stress. Jack examined her belly-no puncture marks..He again was being logical. Stress would make Claire come to term early which in their situation was dangerous. So real or not, she needed to calm down, & she took it emotionally.

<Panicking over Shannon’s asthma attack and partnering in torture instead of looking for a non-torture solution such as the one Sun found.>
Sun found it waaay after the fact. Jack had already approached Sawyer, Kate did too. As far as he was concerned a few more hours and the inflammation in her airway would become too much for a plant which basically amounts to Vics Vapor rub.

Wanting to skip the service which Claire then set up to help the survivors overcome their grief at the deaths on the plane.
a)I'd feel like a hypocrite saying words of memorial when it was my idea to burn them for my survival. b)he was on his way to a funeral so I imagine he wouldn't be in frame of mind to give a service.

<Concealing events (the bear, the stones he found, the French broadcast, and etc) from others “for their own good” of course which IMHO shows a certain level of arrogance on his part..>
Arrogance* ::no2:* can't give ya that one ;) He wasn't the only one & wasn't it Sayid who said if we tell everyone what's happened it'll insight panic?Locke said the same thing w/the missing water.. Then whatcha gonna do..Not only is everyone freaked out, but tensions will rise over survival supplies.

No one said Jack is perfect...matter of fact I find the odd paradox of one min representing/defending* ;) his heroics, and the next trying to defend his failures-LOL! Guy can't win...Pangs of Jack love lol ;)

always a pleasure Fogey* ;D

Umm thanks for the wail er reply Banshee & others. I believe the torture episode was designed to make us think about situational ethics. In this thread I mainly wanted to Jack people around a little on this topic to clarify my thoughts.* In my view Jack is still learning to be a leader and while I agree with a lot of what he does, I also personally dislike his bedside manner when it comes to leadership. Hey here is what I consider to be a mistake that Jack made. When Kate thought he was checking her out and gave him the go ahead by saying it was OK with her if he was, he blew it with his cave response :lol2: Guess he was too busy concentrating on leading the group to the safety of the caves. ::)

Well off to other topics.

LOL Fogey ;) ..I actually fit the Yeats/Scotts version of the banshee better than the wailing "to walk and talk w/a banshee is to find her loving and kind hearted" Hopefully that's the case ;)

LOL-yes, it was a _terrible_ judgement call on his part to be thinking of ppl's survival needs ahead of flirting w/Kate ;) I think the tattoo scene before it made up for that :laugh:

As far as Jack's bedside manner-I find him just the rt mix. He's patient enough to wait but gets tough when he has to. Rose even told him he has a nice way about him....I was very pleased w/the gentle & comforting manner in which he handled Shannon, Rose, and Claire in spite of her getting upset...I feel his WR speech is indicative that he has a uniting vs. devisive presence.

I'll agree he's still learning the leader ropes-but this is a bit of a unique position to be in. An ungoverned, non law enforced fledgling civilization in a traumatic survival situation. Talk about putting all the eggs in one basket...I none the less feel he has the tools/capabilities beyond what his father estimated, but I appreciate his ?ing himself because it keeps him more in tune with the others and more apt to considering what is best for all vs. himself.

When your thrown into a situation like they are all in, it would be expected that figuring out how to lead would be a learning process. Jack has made good decisions and some bad ones. In reality, the adjustment to a 'deserted' island from city life is in itself a huge change. Add into it the fact your father thought you didn't have in it you to be a leader and it is completely understandable that Jack's leadership skills aren't exactly perfect. I don't personally believe that Jack really wants to be in a leadership role, but he was forced into it. The torturing and the threatening of Sawyer wasn't the right way to go about either situation but Jack was just using his power to get what he thought was in the best interest of everyone. I think Jacks bad decisions often come from the fact he is inexperienced holding so much power over other people. The castaways look to him whenever they have a problem, and he's not experienced in that kind of a role.

The castaways look to him whenever they have a problem, and he's not experienced in that kind of a role. Umm Hey! That fits my saying he doesn't delegate responsibility very well. He should try to get them to solve some of their own problems and not rely on him all the time. But as we all seem to agree it is probably a learning experience for him not necessarily a character flaw. (It’s not like he ever had to lead a team into surgery) Jack, Kate, Locke, Sayid, Boone and Michael all had backgrounds that should have given them some limited experience in leading a group.

Banshee I do feel his bedside manner problem is more with leadership than with patients, Rose was a case of bedside manner in a situation that came close to his area of experience with patients. So there I agree he handled her problem very well. Once Boone pointed it out to him and indicated why he should be the one to deal with her that is. ;) With Claire Jack did indicate he had erred in dismissing her fears too readily. However outside of that his handling of Claire & Shannon’s medical concerns did seem OK to me. I don't think we can refer to his moments at the bedside of the Marshal as typical bedside manner.

What was wrong with Jack's bedside manner with Shannon? He was great with her, very calm and reassuring. If not for him she might have been dead before Sun decided to send Michael out to get the plants. Whatever happened with between him, Sayid and Sawyer was seperate from that. . Just because a doctor doesn't realize that hey, eucalyptus plants are available right here on this island doesn't mean there is anything wrong with their doctoring. He's not exactly an experienced witch doctor. ;) Given what tools he had(which was none that he knew of) to deal with Shannon's asthma, he did great with her.

What was wrong with Jack's bedside manner with Shannon? I don't know if anyone has found fault with his bedside manner where Shannon is concerned. Some have felt he should have thought of alternative treatments faster but that is not bedside manner.

After reading all these posts, I still think of Jack differently than most of you.

First, the more I think of it, the more I think Jack's feelings in terms of his relationship with his dad are confined to his 'dad time', times when he's thinking or doing something related to his dad. I don't think his relationship with his dad is coloring his day to day activities on the island.

Jack is a doctor, which means he has leadership skills. How can a doctor, even an average one, not have some leadership skills?

So I believe Jack's initial problems with leadership on the island stem more from a general discomfort with the situation itself(being stuck on an island with no real medical supplies) than with the idea of being a leader. I can see how someone with real skills in something might be very dismayed to find people calling on those skills when he or she lacks the proper tools or enviroment to use those skills. What good is a doctor without drugs, operating room, sterilized equipment, etc? I think that is what is going through Jack's mind.

Think about it, after that episode Jack 'accepted' his resposibility to lead, he hasn't had any problems being leader, has he? Maybe he's made the wrong decisions sometimes, but that's not the same as not wanting to lead.

Jack is sorta like Michael Corleone, he didn't try to take over, but when he became boss anyways he took to it like a fish to water..

well-I agree w/a lot of what game said...Jack may be a reluctant leader but he took to it like a fish to water and his doc skills were an obvious framework for being able to lead... As I mentioned before it's quite a unique compounded situation so I think it would be an adjustment for anyone. And I don't find much of a problem w/his leader manner...There was no reason Boone couldn't hall his cute patootey over there and talk to Rose himself ;) -but he came to Jack & passed the buck.... Thing about Jack is even when he doesn't like doing something, he takes full responsibility for it...His patent phrase is "Let's do this". He said that when ppl were reluctant to go for the transceiver, and when he set up the hike to go to the caves.

There was no reason Boone couldn't hall his cute patootey over there and talk to Rose himself -but he came to Jack & passed the buck.... Because as Boone in essence pointed out, Jack had already established a Dr./Patient relationship with Rose and was best qualified to help her at this point. Good move on Boones part. Shows some leadership style in delegating the job to the most qualified person for it. ;)

eh-Boone was just being lazy ;) and unsure-otherwise he wouldn't have sat there mulling w/Shannon if he should go talk to her. ;D

I won't hear any more of this Boone-bashing! It's unbelievable! Boone has proven his value time and time again on this island. Why, his great-great-great grandfather Daniel would be proud of the fine man Boone has become. Let's list his spectacular accomplishments to date:

1) Was ready to attempt a "pen-in-the-neck thing" (tracheotomy) right after the crash
2) Used his lifeguard skills to almost save someone's life
3) Moved all the water bottles to a safe location (where nobody else knew where they were)
4) Contrary to Shannon's jest, actually learned to tie his shoes two years ago

I'm trying to remember the rest of his wonderful accomplishments, but it's getting late and I'm going to go now.

I still think he was being harsh, I guess it's just a case of differing opinions - but it seems to me like he was taking advantage of his position as resident doctor by making those threats.* It seemed pretty corrupt to me... I mean, I would think that being a doctor he'd pay some heed to the Hippocratic Oath.* *Apparently not.* (I'm aware the oath is not formally taken, but most medical schools have some form of this and I mean the concept rather than the actual oath.* Jack seemed to be the type to put the patient's well being first and foremost)

There was no way Sawyer was getting that briefcase open.* It was actually Jack's opening it put the guns into play, and unless he plans on burying them this is going to be an issue.* Maybe Jack didn't know that, but it seems like a pretty lame excuse to basically threaten to torture people.* I don't think this is the last time we're going to see Jack do something shady, either, no matter how justified he thinks it is.

I think... when you come right down to it, as with the torture episode, this is about wether or not you believe the ends justify the means.* Personally, I don't which is why I'm a bit skeptical about the whole thing.


I completely agree with you. Sawyer is pretty honest about why he does the things he does. Jack wants to be good, but I don't think he is. I have found in life that people who make a big deal about how altruistic they are, are usually not to be trusted. He's on pretty shaky ground with the torture thing.

Also, this may be a controversial assertion for some, but I think one way to look at it is that Jack sold out his Dad in such a public manner because of his own resentment for years of abuse. He justified it to himself because the woman who died was pregnant, but he waited until a very public, can't-take-it-back moment to humiliate his Dad in front of his peers.

Don't get me wrong, I love the characters with all their moral ambiguities, and I think M. Fox is doing a great job, but I can't stand Jack as a character. He just gets on my nerves!

And Sawyer hasn't really *done* anything that should make someone be seriously worried about him.* I mean, unless I'm remembering incorrectly all he's basically done is stashed a bunch of stuff and got into a few little fist fights.* I remember Jack using his fists, also.* He's only used guns twice... once to shoot a polar bear, which I think was justified, and the other to try to put Capt. Shrap. out of his misery. (which the good capt. apparently asked for.)* And he wasn't even able to do that properly.* Not exactly mr. marksman.


I agree. In fact, I would trust Sawyer with the guns before I'd trust Jack with them. Sawyer took a huge responsibility in ending the marshall's life (actually in trying to end the marshall's life). And it was one that Jack, the big doctor/leader/grownup, shirked.

Sawyer just doesn't try to present himself as more altruistic than he actually is. Which is more honest and makes him a more appealing character , to me.

I completely agree with you. Sawyer is pretty honest about why he does the things he does. Jack wants to be good, but I don't think he is. I have found in life that people who make a big deal about how altruistic they are, are usually not to be trusted. He's on pretty shaky ground with the torture thing.

Ahh ok, I must say we disagree on Sawyer and honesty...the man IS a con man....and I dont think the whole Shannon's inhalers thing was that honest of him....as for Jack, I've never seen him ever make a big deal about how good he is....in fact, he readily admits he's no "saint" and always gives credit to the people who deserve it (charlie, hurley)

I also dont agree with Jack trying to spite his father by publically announcing his fathers wrongdoings.....his father had convinced him to stay quiet about things, but Jack couldnt do it, he wanted to do the right thing...so whether he told the truth right then, or talked to the review board after...it still would have been public, his father would have been called in front of another review board anyway if Jack had told someone after.....he was doing it to do the right thing, not spite his father or try to get back at him for anything.

*whew* all done

Ahh ok,* I must say we disagree on Sawyer and honesty...the man IS a con man....and I dont think the whole Shannon's inhalers thing was that honest of him....as for Jack, I've never seen him ever make a big deal about how good he is....in fact, he readily admits he's no "saint" and always gives credit to the people who deserve it (charlie, hurley)



Well, good point. But I didn't mean that Sawyer is always honest, just that he doesn't pretend to be a good guy or have pure motives if he doesn't. But you're right, it's not like he's a nice guy.

I have found in life that people who make a big deal about how altruistic they are, are usually not to be trusted.

When has Jack made a big deal about how altruistic he is? All the poor guy does is work endlessly to try and make the others safe and comfortable, and he really doesn't talk about it. Sawyer doesn't really do anything altruistic, so there's really nothing to compare there. I don't see how being selfish makes him more of an honest person?

When has Jack made a big deal about how altruistic he is?* All the poor guy does is work endlessly to try and make the others safe and comfortable, and he really doesn't talk about it.* *Sawyer doesn't really do anything altruistic, so there's really nothing to compare there.* I don't see how being selfish makes him more of an honest person?*

I never said Sawyer was altruistic, only that he doesn't pretend that he is.

And I was making a case that while Jack seemed to justify his betrayal of his father by the fact that the woman who died was pregnant, and that he was trying to do the right thing, he also had a personal grudge against his father, who was abusive. He seemed to justify going along with the torture of Sawyer because of the issue of Shannon's meds, but he also has a big personal issue with Sawyer and is competing with Sawyer for Kate's attention (or you could look at it that way). In either case, his motives were pretty ambiguous.

I never said Sawyer was altruistic, only that he doesn't pretend that he is.

And I was making a case that while Jack seemed to justify his betrayal of his father by the fact that the woman who died was pregnant, and that he was trying to do the right thing, he also had a personal grudge against his father, who was abusive.* He seemed to justify going along with the torture of Sawyer because of the issue of Shannon's meds, but he also has a big personal issue with Sawyer and is competing with Sawyer for Kate's attention (or you could look at it that way).* In either case, his motives were pretty ambiguous.*


So, Sawyer letting people know he is a liar and a rat makes him more honest? ;) ;D

I don't hink Jack turned on his dad just because the woman was pregnant but rather that was the last straw. He felt guilty from the beginning but having dreamed of his dad's approval since childhood he was persuaded by the appearance of it when the old man came to him later.

It was only at the hearing, seeing how callous his dad was about the death and the woman being pregnant that he was pushed past the point of being able to blind himself to what he dad had become.

He turned him in so no one else would die like that at the old man's hands.

So, Sawyer letting people know he is a liar and a rat makes him more honest?It makes his behavior honest not him. :lol2:
It makes him more predictable i.e. you can trust him to do things in a certain way.* You trust that you probably know what he will do or how he will react, so even if you don't trust the man you might have trust in your ability to forecast his reaction. Predictability vs the unknown is valued even if you don’t favor/like what Sawyer will do.

Jack did not time his disclosure of his father's problem based on a grudge against his father. The board was about to take a final vote and after that it would have been to late to out his father. Jack had to act then or continue living with a lie and guilt. Personally I think he should have disclosed his father's problems even earlier than he did. His prior silence establishes his complicity in the death of the pregnant patient.

PS I think Jack could make the same claim that Kate did about the killing a loved one. He could feel responsible for his father’s death since his father went into a drunken tailspin and then died as a result of Jack’s disclosing his problems. (An honorable action leading to an adverse result on one you love.)

No it makes him more predictable i.e. yuo can trust him to do things in a certain way.* You trust that you probably know what he will do or how he will react, so even if you don't trust the man you might have trust in your ability to forecast his reaction. Predictability vs the unknown is desirable even if you don’t favor/like what Sawyer will do.


Being sarcastic. Hence the smilies. ;D

Being sarcastic. Hence the smilies.* ;D
I know :( I was not trying to take away from your well directed sarcasm but it made a good lead in for me. :-*

Used! I feel so used! :o :'(

:-*

Used! I feel so used!* :o :'(

:-*
Like Sawyer I am a fan of Annie Lennox & the Eurythmics song "Sweet Dreams" (are made of this)

Sweet dreams are made of this
Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world
And the seven seas--
Everybody’s looking for something.
Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused. ;D

Also, this may be a controversial assertion for some, but I think one way to look at it is that Jack sold out his Dad in such a public manner because of his own resentment for years of abuse. He justified it to himself because the woman who died was pregnant, but he waited until a very public, can't-take-it-back moment to humiliate his Dad in front of his peers.


I think this is a good point. There was alot of time for Jack to 'out' his dad in a more discrete manner, he didn't have to do like he did.

I think it shows ALOT of hypocrisy on Jack's part too because apparently his dad negligently killing an adult woman was something Jack could tolerate, but an unborn baby too? Oh NO! That's over the line! ::)

It shows Jack's sneaky passive/aggressive methods, that we later see again with the torture(when Jack supervises but doesn't actually get his hands dirty), and the threat to Sawyer. This is deliberate on Jack's part, not the result of some unresolved dad issues. How about when Jack tells Kate he doesn't want to know her background, then later he wants to? Because it has to be when JACK wants to know, not when Kate wants to talk about it. See, that's just the way Jack is.

I also agree that a person like Sawyer, who is predictable in his amorality, is more trustworthy than a guy like Jack, who is acting on a twisted sense of morality.

I think this is a good point.* There was alot of time for Jack to 'out' his dad in a more discrete manner, he didn't have to do like he did.

I think it shows ALOT of hypocrisy on Jack's part too because apparently his dad negligently killing an adult woman was something Jack could tolerate, but an unborn baby too? Oh NO! That's over the line!* ::)

Jack had been manipulated by his father his whole life to think he was less and always wrong. What he showed was that he finally broke from that and stood up to his dad and for the woman, her child and any other person he might operate on in the future.

It shows Jack's sneaky passive/aggressive methods, that we later see again with the torture(when Jack supervises but doesn't actually get his hands dirty), and the threat to Sawyer.* This is deliberate on Jack's part, not the result of some unresolved dad issues.* How about when Jack tells Kate he doesn't want to know her background, then later he wants to?* Because it has to be when JACK wants to know, not when Kate wants to talk about it.* See, that's just the way Jack is.*

So ther man can't change his mind? He was looking at things as everyone starting new but when he began to get closer to Kate he wanted to know more. You make it sound like he's not entitled to a choice about things. Sure he wants to know wneh he waants to know. Wouldn't you?

I also agree that a person like Sawyer, who is predictable in his amorality, is more trustworthy than a guy like Jack, who is acting on a twisted sense of morality.

Sawyer may be predictable but trustworthy? You can trust that you can't trust him.

My head hurts. :-[

Has Sawyer actually lied to anyone on the island?? Lies of omission aside, and the little fact that his name isn't actually Sawyer (which we never hear him TELL anyone, but we can assume he did) When Hurley called him on the food stash, he admitted he had it. In fact, I don't think Sawyer has lied to anyone on the island yet. At least not that we've seen. In fact, he's been brutally honest for the most part. Hoarding doesn't mean he is untrustworthy. Selfish, sure. Untrustworthy? That seems to be stretching it a bit. Yes he was/is a con man. And I'm sure he's done quite a bit of manipulation since they crashed. But I'm not sure I've heard him tell a lie yet. I think we're being pushed to believe he's so untrustworthy... but Sawyer seems to give what he gets. If you don't trust him, he'll give you a reason to keep believing it. I think sometime soon, possibly in his next ep, we're going to see someone on the island trust him with something important.

You know, wouldn't it be ironic if Jack trusted Sawyer with the case? Granted, Jack would keep the key... but I mean, you KNOW Jack doesn't trust Kate right now, and as far as he knows Sayid is hearing voices in his head. Who else could he trust? Hurley? I can't see Hurley being comfortable with that at all. Most people wouldn't want that responsibility. Sawyer though, would see it as an opportunity to move up in the ranks as it were. Plus it would keep people at bay, and he seems to be perfectly fine with that.

Would seem to go along with Jack's flawed logic as of late, lol.

< think it shows ALOT of hypocrisy on Jack's part too because apparently his dad negligently killing an adult woman was something Jack could tolerate, but an unborn baby too? Oh NO! That's over the line!*
It shows Jack's sneaky passive/aggressive methods, that we later see again with the torture(when Jack supervises but doesn't actually get his hands dirty), and the threat to Sawyer.* This is deliberate on Jack's part, not the result of some unresolved dad issues.* How about when Jack tells Kate he doesn't want to know her background, then later he wants to?* Because it has to be when JACK wants to know, not when Kate wants to talk about it.* See, that's just the way Jack is.>
I'll agree Sawyer is more predictable in his amorality, but no way do I think Jack was a hypocrite about his dad...He was discreet for years..Being in the position of loving your father, & being faced w/ destroying his career* is not 1 I envy. There would never be a "rt time" personally....It took a lot of guts for Jack to turn him in. He sacrificed the last shred of connection he could have with his dad by doing that..Jack's entire life has been about trying to get his approval...It was obviously painful...Lying by omission about the baby was the last straw. It could have changed Jack's course of action in the OR... We don't know how "early" the pregnancy was-some women don't even show 9 mnths in. Babies have been C'd @5-6 months. ..Survival is unlikely, but in the event of the mother being terminal, they would've taken a chance. Even if that wasn't the case, I think the baby represented how many more innocent lives could be destroyed if he allowed his father to go on....He wasn't being passive aggressive w/the threat-that was pointed real or not..and as far as not actually torturing, I don't think he thought it would go as far as it did. Who has more training in torture-him or Sayid? Kinda makes sense to let Sayid do it.

I actually think Jack's character is the one of the most misunderstood......He's not judging Kate. If he was doing that, having known since TR, he wouldn't have defended her to Hurley, or he would have treated her like she wasn't his equal, & he hasn't. He sure as heck wouldn't have looked so torn about comforting her either... What he is doing is expecting honesty as you would from anyone you care about. I can't say I blame him...He has always given Kate the benefit of the doubt w.o being blind, & she disappointed him, just like dad...If anything, he's is using Kate's past an excuse to push her away because of how his father deceieved him....Kate came to him & offered up her past...at that time he didn't think it was his business. So now that he's started to care,* he wants to connect w/her & _needs_ honesty, especially in grieving for his father which folks forget, so it's resurfacing feelings of betrayl... Kate has kinda lied by omission to him, he senses she isn't telling him stuff, & that's why he wants to know what she did. Plus he wants to understand why she would hurt him. It's about time he thought of himself.

Sawyer not telling an upfront lie has little to do w/ why honest isn't the 1st adjective I'd use for him ;) His real motives are typically hidden beyond a physical metaphor.....He colored the events surrounding Shannon's misfortune to serve as device for his martyrdom. It wasn't about the inhalers. He got the 3 things he wanted-self punishment, Kate's attention, & Jack's jealousy.. He takes things of value not just need/want, but the purpose of making ppl come to him & sorta beg, ask a certain way. A form of power/attention.....The case-wasn't about that so much as he felt he wasn't good enough on his own to get Kate's-guess what -attention ;) , so the case was "collateral", way of making her confide in him.... So I'd say he's less honest in general, but honest in his selfishness/intention toward the physical metaphor.

I've been thinking a bit more about why I respond to the Sawyer, Jack, and Kate characters the way that I do. I think for me, family loyalty is an important value, and Jack betrayed his father for motives that I still consider could be suspect. Sawyer's character has been marred by his frustrated attempt to avenge wrongs done to his family, and that intrigues me.

Also, Kate's and Sawyer's lies bother me less because this group of people have all been thrown in with a bunch of strangers. As I've said elsewhere, I would lie to Jack too if I were Kate. A lot of his attitude toward her is motivated by, what's the polite term...wanting to "get with her." Here is where I prefer Sawyer's open approach. The drive to hmmm....mate is a human thing and neither noble nor ignoble, but Jack is kinda coy about it and prefers to frame his attitude toward Kate in terms of doing what's best for the group. Example: Sawyer was curious why the case meant so much to Kate, and said so. Jack was darn curious too, but he (and Kate) framed the whole thing in terms of "We can't let Sawyer have those guns."

I also have to politely disagree with banshee's statement that Jack isn't judging Kate. "Tell me the truth, just this once, I want the truth." He's judging her for lying to him. I don't think there's anything really wrong with judging people, by the way.

At bottom, it's all my own stuff, if you know what I mean, that makes me have such a different response to the Jack character than some people do. I loved him at the beginning...all that staying calm in the chaotic opening scene, the way he responded when panicky Boone randomly brought him a bunch of pens for the unecessary tracheotomy ("These are all fine. Thank you."), going off alone to try and treat his own wounds after doing everything he could for everyone else...that was all great stuff. It was his attitude toward Kate and his actions toward his father that changed my feelings about him.

One of the great things about these characters is the way they change--or reveal deeper layers of themselves.

I don't know, I guess I'm rambling quite a bit and it's obvious that all of this could be zestily argued from all sides. And admittedly, it's just my own weird values and prejudices that make me a little bit weirded out by Jack right now.

Have to completely disagree on a few things Lara....lol but thats the fun in this board!

Ok I think family loyalty is a great thing, but I would never let a family member go on killing people....IMO that can NOT be justified by family loyalty.....Jack outted his father so he wouldnt kill anyone else....not because Jack was resentful....Jack was so afraid to say anything because he WANTED his fathers approval....but he did the right thing by turning him in...how could he live with himself if he let his father go on practicing??

As for Jacks attitude towards Kate......he has NEVER once even begin to suggest that he wants to "get with Kate" If anything, Sawyer is the one who treats her like a sex object.....he's outwardly suggestive with her and personally I think that makes him a d*ck. Jack has never been suggestive towards Kate, even when shes given him the room to do so (with the whole are you checking me out thing?) Jack's main focus is keeping everyone safe.....although I think he SHOULD allow himself to flirt with Kate.....but like Javi said...people mistake Jacks attitude towards Kate, most people actually believe hes not interested in her at all, which is why I was shocked to hear a different opinion, lol, but yea he does like her but he's ultimate goal is not to get with her....right now he just wants to get to a level with her where they can be open, honest and trust eachother...

Ok brain hurts and I need to eat.... ;D

Nice thoughts, Wanderer. I think you're right about the Sawyer part, people assume that just because no one on the island likes him that he's a total scum bag that shouldn't be trusted with anything. He's selfish, sure... but as for being a con man. Kate was a convict, Sayid tortured people, and I'm sure there are many other secrets lurking around people's pasts. Kate and Sayid were probably both victims of circumstance, and it seems like Sawyer was as well. He has show regret for the things that he's done - if they get a pardon I don't see why he shouldn't :)

Have to completely disagree on a few things Lara....lol but thats the fun in this board!

So true!!! :P


Ok I think family loyalty is a great thing, but I would never let a family member go on killing people....IMO that can NOT be justified by family loyalty.....Jack outted his father so he wouldnt kill anyone else....not because Jack was resentful....Jack was so afraid to say anything because he WANTED his fathers approval....but he did the right thing by turning him in...how could he live with himself if he let his father go on practicing??

See, maybe this is totally weird of me, but if my Dad was a reckless alcoholic who should stop practicing medicine, I would try to stop it sure. But I would do everything in my power not to ruin him in the process. If I had to choose, seriously, I would always put family first. But Jack chose to out his father at the most destructive possible moment, when it would be completely humiliating and career-ending, and I see that as a significant choice. And I can't see myself putting "The Greater Good of Mankind" before my own father, even if we had a difficult relationship (which we have at times). The other thing that bothers me is the implication--which I really think is on purpose by the writers--that Jack's "It's for the greater good" MIGHT be a justification, when a big part of his motivation was really to satisfy his grudge against his Papa.

But a lot of that is my own interpretation, and the opposite interpretation has as much justification, you're definitely right there.


As for Jacks attitude towards Kate......he has NEVER once even begin to suggest that he wants to "get with Kate" If anything, Sawyer is the one who treats her like a sex object.....he's outwardly suggestive with her and personally I think that makes him a d*ck. Jack has never been suggestive towards Kate, even when shes given him the room to do so (with the whole are you checking me out thing?) Jack's main focus is keeping everyone safe.....although I think he SHOULD allow himself to flirt with Kate.....but like Javi said...people mistake Jacks attitude towards Kate, most people actually believe hes not interested in her at all, which is why I was shocked to hear a different opinion, lol, but yea he does like her but he's ultimate goal is not to get with her....right now he just wants to get to a level with her where they can be open, honest and trust eachother...


I'm reading into his actions that he wants to get with her...he's never said that he does. But he competes with Sawyer more than he needs to, he seems to want to put her on a pedestal more than he needs to...again, it's all interpretation but I do think we're seeing stuff onscreen that could lead to the interpretation that he wants some of that action. By which I mean, it's my interpretation that he wants to get with her...but it's not totally my imagination.

This is a huge leap, but I think Sawyer would be understanding of Kate's flaws and messed-up choices. Jack seems seriously bummed that she's not some little angel. Not that he shouldn't be! It's just, if I were Kate, I'd be like "Sawyer...this guy gets me" and "Jack...he's always going to be disapproving and rejecting and...blah." This is assuming Kate is a human with normal-ish emotions and not a cold-blooded psychopath or a man-killing android or somethin'.

I'm sure y'all are fascinated by my rambling...thppthh....going to get coffee now.

1. Kate is not a convict. She was accused of a crime and we know she also committed one - Both Sawyer and Jack have committed crimes.
2. We have seen Jack, Sawyer & Kate all lie, either directly or by omission.
3. Both Jack and Sawyer are shown as having grown up with family issues and it is starting to look like we may also find that is true with Kate.
4 Trust in Sawyer being more predictable than Jack is not the same as saying Sawyer is trustworthy.

1. Kate is not a convict. She was accused of a crime and we know she also committed one - Both Sawyer and Jack have committed crimes.
2. We have seen Jack, Sawyer & Kate* all lie, either directly or by omission.
3. Both Jack and Sawyer are shown as having grown up with family issues and it is starting to look like we may also find that is true with Kate.
4 Trust in Sawyer being more predictable than Jack is not the same as saying Sawyer is trustworthy.


I'm impressed! This post is so concise...I think I need to condense more...sigh :-[

I'm sure y'all are fascinated by my rambling...thppthh....going to get coffee now. On my second cup!
I'm impressed! This post is so concise...I think I need to condense more...sigh I love to ramble - most of my posts can be cut back by 75% or more without loss. But I am on limited time here today -gotta go. :'(

Lara...yes I do see your point on things as well! It just all depends on each individuals interpretation.....and I LOVE hearing everyones opinions and debating...so keep it coming! lol



I don't see Jack as being bummed that shes not an angel...I mean hes known since TR that she is a "criminal" (term used loosely since we still dont know her whole story, lol) and yet he likes her anyway...he was bummed that she lied to him, yes, and I would be too. Jack thought that they were both on the same level and that the could trust eachother...but he isnt disapproving or rejecting her, he was just really hurt (btw mad props to Matthew Fox for that scene!!) He doesnt and wont ever IMO expect her to be perfect, but after awhile I think he was hoping she would trust him more (honestly I still dont get why she didnt want him to see a toy plane...????) The point im attempting to make is that while yes, her and sawyer share a similar deceitful past, they might understand eachother, but they would always question the other and I dont think sawyer would appreciate her lying either. On the other hand, Jack, while not having the same type of past, still does IMO understand Kate, after all she has told him more than anyone else on the island....

This is assuming Kate is a human with normal-ish emotions and not a cold-blooded psychopath or a man-killing android or somethin'

HAHAHAHA yes assuming...we still dont know...she COULD be a man-killing android....lol...interesting plot twist

Ok well I have to let my coffee kick in...sorry for the rambling, I hope it made SOME sense

sorry for the rambling, I hope it made SOME sense


No no I love the rambling. And two things I have to wholeheartedly agree with you on:
1) The toy plane...also know as the "Huh?" heard 'round the world.
2) Props to Matthew Fox. He is doing an incredible job. Lost rules, that's all I have to say!

lol ok glad someone doesnt mind the rambling....yea the plane thing was def. weird...I mean I know it has some significance to Kates story but it boggles my mind why she tried so hard to hide it from Jack....I mean its not like him seeing it makes him suddenly aware of her entire past, lol....

lol ok glad someone doesnt mind the rambling....yea the plane thing was def. weird...I mean I know it has some significance to Kates story but it boggles my mind why she tried so hard to hide it from Jack....I mean its not like him seeing it makes him suddenly aware of her entire past, lol....


Kate does a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense. Why give the suitcase to Sawyer in the first place, or lie to Jack about what's inside? She could have just claimed the case contained something with sentimental value. I don't know what's up with her to be honest, hehe. :)

I have to say I seriously don't see Jack's outing his father as having anything to do with resentment on his part. *He himself never said anything about "the greater good" that was in his father's little speech to him when he was manipulating Jack into signing his report of the incident. *

Think about it this way, Lara--what if it was Jack's dad who was operating on YOUR dad and he botched it because he was drunk and it was something Jack could have stopped if he'd just put the good of the patients before family loyalty during that meeting? *Because the fact is, whether Jack had signed that agreement or turned in his own report with the truth of the matter to begin with, it still would have been turning in his father in public. *This isn't something that would have been able to be kept secret. *Jack still would have been turning in his father and it is something that did have to be done. *

Don't forget Jack did try to convince his father that this was a problem, also I thought it was clear from their confrontations in that episode that this is not the first time they'd talked about his "problem" even if this was the first time he'd been caught drinking on the job. * *Jack was so desperate for his father's approval after a lifetime of not having it(Jack's father practically admitted as much but it was under the guise of "molding soft metal into steel" and "needing to sacrifice certain aspects of my relationship with you so you would be the great surgeon you are today--all for the greater good") that Jack's father pulling out all the stops(which just shows the lengths to his father was willing to go in order to keep practicing despite having killed someone on the operating table because he was drunk) worked to delay Jack. *

Jack's father is the one in the wrong here. *Not Jack. * He's the one who used his son in a way a parent should never use a child, to lie for them. *And not just a little white "Daddy can't come to the phone right now because he's not feeling well" lie but a HUGE lie. *

I don't think the fact that the woman was pregnant in and of itself changed Jack's mind--I agree with banshee, that she was pregnant signified all the future "unknown" people Jack's father could kill if he was allowed to continue in the manner he had been and Jack realised he couldn't let himself go through with this lie. *Matthew Fox's acting in that scene was just brilliant, Jack looked just sick at heart.

And really when you think about it, if you want to look at it from a family loyalty first aspect--what had Jack's father done to earn such "family loyalty"? *Did he earn it just because he put a roof over Jack's head as a child? *In his own twisted words he admitted to not really treating Jack as a son. *He didn't say it in so many words but in his talk of "sacrificing certain aspects of our relationship", he was basically admitting that. *He didn't do it for Jack, he did it for himself. *He treated Jack like a pet project at best and emotionally abused him at his worst.

I also don't think Jack is being judgemental of Kate, not that the way it seems to be thought. *I don't think Jack wants to know about Kate to judge her but to KNOW her. *He's not judging her for her past but is her actions NOW. *Both she and he know that she hasn't been truthful and on his part to just live with knowing what he knows without knowing the rest of it would be impossible for just about anyone. * It's kind of like the situation of "I'm going to let you know this much but then I'm going to leave all the details out"--it's kind of like a game of "Nyah nyah I know something you don't know". *I know she didn't "let him", it just came out, but he kept her secret and in that time since then he treated her quite well and with trust. *It's only the last couple episodes that it started to get to him and I think it's because it became more obvious she was actively hiding things as opposed to simply not having the opportunity to reveal them yet. *So he's not having trouble trusting her because of her past but because of how she's acting now. *And that is a perfectly valid thing to "judge" someone on.

Well said...LostWord...well said!! *applause*

LostWord you took the words right out of my mouth. I agree with every point you made.

I've been reading this thread for a while and have been truly impressed by the ability of people to express their opinions, even if I don't always agree with them, and the maturity that everyone has shown. This debate could have easily disintegrated into a big name-calling disaster, but everyone still seems to respect each others opinions. I love this website!

Ok, enough for my Fuse-gushing. I just hope this debate continues, and becomes more interesting, as we learn more about each character!

I have to say I seriously don't see Jack's outing his father as having anything to do with resentment on his part. *

I know I'm doing a lot of interpreting to make that case, but I just think you can argue it either way. *I think his motives are tinged with ambiguity.


Think about it this way, Lara--what if it was Jack's dad who was operating on YOUR dad and he botched it because he was drunk and it was something Jack could have stopped if he'd just put the good of the patients before family loyalty during that meeting? *


But you see, that would put me on the exact opposite side of the situation, and my principle of family loyalty would then motivate me to act quite differently--trying to bring down the person who killed my father. Perfectly clear-cut. *I wouldn't expect Jack or Jack's dad to feel loyalty to my family either, or even loyalty to "the greater good." *I would just expect my own self to act on my own family loyalty.


Because the fact is, whether Jack had signed that agreement or turned in his own report with the truth of the matter to begin with, it still would have been turning in his father in public. *This isn't something that would have been able to be kept secret. *Jack still would have been turning in his father and it is something that did have to be done. *

Don't forget Jack did try to convince his father that this was a problem, also I thought it was clear from their confrontations in that episode that this is not the first time they'd talked about his "problem" even if this was the first time he'd been caught drinking on the job. * *


I agree that it was portrayed that Jack had tried to intervene in other ways and was fed up with trying to go that road. *I'm saying though, that I would not get fed up with going that road. *I would consider private intervention pretty much my only course of action. *There's a limit somewhere, and I'm not sure where it is--if Jeffrey Dahmer was your Dad, would you turn him in? I think I'd be too blind to ever see that it was him. *An extreme example I know, but I'm just trying to make it clear that I'm not saying "I'm morally superior to Jack," just that he started to rub me wrong at some point and I think the Dad betrayal was that point. Even though the dad was a monster! Not defending the Dad. *

Alos, let me just disclaimer a little here and say I know I'm deep into the hypothetical with all this "Here's what I would do" stuff. *And I fully acknowledge you can't say what you'd do unless you've been in the very same situation, so if Jack were a real person we knew, I'd definitely give all this "family loyalty" stuff a healthy dose of "Hey, who knows, I might have done the same thing in his shoes." *But I'm coming at this more from the angle of "Let's get to the bottom of why the character Jack bugs some people, while other people really like him." *


I also don't think Jack is being judgemental of Kate, not that the way it seems to be thought. *I don't think Jack wants to know about Kate to judge her but to KNOW her. *



Yeah but, in my opinion, he wants to be her boyfriend, and that makes his "I want to get to know you, plus I'm all about saving lives" a little ewww. Again, the desire to pair off is something all we humans feel, but something about his approach just creeps me. *His sideways "I'm not flirting" flirting skeeves me out. I guess what I'm saying is, It's not you Jack, it's me!! But we can still be friends...LOL :lol2:

It is not uncommon for a similar scenario to play out in people's lives as parents age and accumulate driving deficiencies which can be tougher since it is usually a gradual increased risk to themselves and others.

His sideways "I'm not flirting" flirting skeeves me out. Good point! I agree! Especially since she has already indicated to him that she was open to a straightforward honest & direct approach. *;) Jack is botching it if he wants Kate.

Jack's father needed help with his problem. However he would not face up to his problem until Jack forced him to by turning him in. Jack's father if allowed to continue might have directly caused another human death. Jack was showing loyalty to his father by turning him in for his own good. It was not Jack's fault that his father proceeded to swan dive off the high board after that. *

I've been reading this thread for a while and have been truly impressed by the ability of people to express their opinions, even if I don't always agree with them, and the maturity that everyone has shown. This debate could have easily disintegrated into a big name-calling disaster, but everyone still seems to respect each others opinions. I love this website!


Oh my gosh, I totally agree. I love that about the Fuselage. :-*

And I love this topic. Honestly, you people have driven me to take a much closer look at why I like the characters I like...it's fun.

Gee, grackle, that's a good point. *It's one situation to compare it to anyway. * *Does your family loyalty mean you keep letting your parents get behind the wheel. *Or even drunk driving? *Does family loyalty mean you don't take away the car keys if you can get ahold of them if a parent insists on driving while intoxicated? *Jack can't take away his dad's "keys" on his own because he can't take away his license to practice medicine, that can only happen by getting other people involved.

For a real life situation, the unibomber's brother is who finally turned him in. *I can't see that as being wrong even though it was probably a difficult decision to make.

Now as for Jack and Kate, honestly I can't see anything skeevy about Jack's behavior. *He hasn't been flirty with her, except for like once when she was clearly flirting with him. *Otherwise he's been anything but flirtatious with her. *He's treated her like a friend, someone he'd like to have on his side, but there is underlying tension of attraction there as well. *It's more subconscious than anything else. *In fact it probably only entered Jack's conscious mind at this point because OTHER people pointed it out to him. *Hurley and Charlie teasing him and then Sawyer constantly trying to provoke him with nasty sounding things about himself and Kate. *

You are acting like he sits around thinking he wants to get together with Kate but I don't think he does. *I think he is attracted to her inspite of what he wants. *I think the last he wants is to get involved with someone. *So he isn't "botching" it in the sense that's he's consciously trying to get together with her. *He's actually trying to avoid getting together with her, in which case he's not botching anything but is in fact being very successful. *:) *

Tho one thing I really disgree with is the idea that the woman's baby represented(to Jack) all the future people Jack's dad would kill.

Um, his dad's actions have already resulted in one known death, that's enough. Am I supposed to believe that Jack was thinking "well, it's just this one, one is okay", then when he heard about the pregnancy he thought "holy crap! Dad's killing has no end, I must stop it!". I don't think so.

That's why I say Jack has a twisted sense of morality, he WAS going to give his dad a free pass until he heard about the baby. That's a fact, watch the episode again if you must. Somehow, in Jack's mind, killing a pregnant woman is worse than killing just a woman. Jack feels icky about it, for want of a better word, and that's why he speaks up at that point and fingers his dad.

I'm convinced now that he didn't pick that point to do it because of any animosity towards his father, it is just that he didn't feel bad about his own involvement in the cover-up until then.

Because of this weird morality of his, I would not trust him with the guns, since I'd never know when or how he'd use them. I would trust Sawyer with them, because I'd know when and how he'd use them, and when those times came around I'd be ready to deal with it.

Gee, grackle, that's a good point. *It's one situation to compare it to anyway. * *Does your family loyalty mean you keep letting your parents get behind the wheel. *Or even drunk driving? *Does family loyalty mean you don't take away the car keys if you can get ahold of them if a parent insists on driving while intoxicated? *Jack can't take away his dad's "keys" on his own because he can't take away his license to practice medicine, that can only happen by getting other people involved.

For a real life situation, the unibomber's brother is who finally turned him in. *I can't see that as being wrong even though it was probably a difficult decision to make.



Well, in the first situation, my reaction would be to take the keys away. *My family member is in danger (first priority) and endangering others (second priority). But this is so much easier, because first and second priority are not in conflict with each other. *It doesn't ruin somebody to stop them from driving when they are no longer able to, although it might hurt their feelings. *

In the second situation, I know that the Unabomber's brother did the right thing. *But it's hard for me to be objective because my family could have been a target (seriously--my father has been the target of death threats before because of the work that he does, and the possibility of a Unabomber package was much discussed in his workplace at the time.) *

If I were the Unabomber's brother, geez, what would I have done? *I know it's wrong but I'm not sure I could turn in my own brother! *

Again, I'm not at all saying, "Oh Jack is bad," just "I respond to the character a certain way, and I think this is where he lost me."

But y'all are all making incredible points and I'm way into it.

Oh, and about the hittin' on Kate thing...maybe you're right and he just wants her as a friend. *But if I was on that island and he said to me, "No, I really want to get to know Kate as a friend," I'd be like, "As a friend...uh sure. *Come on buddy, I'm not blind, can you really deny you want to..."....I think the admins have suggested we keep the language clean on the board, so I'll leave the rest to your collective imaginations *;)

Clean language? What do they think this is nursery school(seeing as that is probably just about the last place where you'll hear "clean" language nowadays) ;) .

That's why I say Jack has a twisted sense of morality, he WAS going to give his dad a free pass until he heard about the baby. That's a fact, watch the episode again if you must. Somehow, in Jack's mind, killing a pregnant woman is worse than killing just a woman. Jack feels icky about it, for want of a better word, and that's why he speaks up at that point and fingers his dad.

I disagree, I don't think it was because he felt it was worse, but turning in your father is a tough thing to do. Look at him during that whole meeting, he looked sick and uncomfortable the whole time, he was barely containing himself as it was. The writers were most likely making the point that it wasn't easy for him, that it wasn't based on personal animosity, that what Jack wanted more than anything in the world was to hear his father's approval and that he TRIED to make excuses and tried to see it like his father told him he should, that it was for the greater good and he wouldn't do it again BUT he just couldn't and that was the final straw.

Jack's morality isn't twisted because he made the right decision to begin with--his first reaction was to want to turn his father in if his father wouldn't take measures himself to see that it didn't happen again--he just took a minor, temporary detour because his father seemed to give him the approval he's spent a lifetime seeking--before he got back there again. He made it even though it cost him his family, because that's what it did. Twisted and unhealthy and emotionally abusive as it was it was still his father and mother, his parents whose love and approval he desperately wanted.

And Lara, I have to say I don't agree about Saywer and "avenging the wrongs on his family" because I don't think it was avenging the wrongs on his family--it was about avenging the wrongs on himself. That is the way 8 year olds think. He felt what the real Sawyer did took his parents away from him and he wanted revenge for himself. It's perfectly understandable, I certainly totally sympathize but it's not the same thing.

Clean language? What do they think this is nursery school(seeing as that is probably just about the last place where you'll hear "clean" language nowadays) ;) .

I disagree, I don't think it was because he felt it was worse, but turning in your father is a tough thing to do. Look at him during that whole meeting, he looked sick and uncomfortable the whole time, he was barely containing himself as it was. ..


Those are good points, but consider other evidence we have seen of Jack's moral code. He was willing to be a party to torture because the victim(Sawyer) was a lesser person, in Jack's eyes, than his justification(Shannon). That is, I believe, evidence to support my view of his twisted morality. Would Jack have been willing to torture Claire for Sawyer's benefit, if Sawyer had asthma and Claire had the inhalers? I think not.

And Lara, I have to say I don't agree about Saywer and "avenging the wrongs on his family" because I don't think it was avenging the wrongs on his family--it was about avenging the wrongs on himself.* That is the way 8 year olds think.* He felt what the real Sawyer did took his parents away from him and he wanted revenge for himself.* It's perfectly understandable, I certainly totally sympathize but it's not the same thing.* *


Oh LostWord...*sigh* *No, I don't think so. *But ya know, my whole point is that it resonates with me a certain way because of my own values & experiences. So ya ain't gonna change my mind by arguing, although further developments could easily prove me wrong.

By the way, a bit of a tangent about Sawyer...anybody ever seen Casablanca with Humphrey Bogart? *Doesn't everybody find Rick irresistible? *He would never admit to being a good guy, he only does good behind the scenes, and only those who know him well know how good he really is. *When he does something good he tries his best not to take the credit. *This is one of the most popular films of all time, and Rick is one of the most loved characters. That trajectory--gruff exterior, inner good guy---just sparks with some people. Before you all start with the nitpicking, I know it's not a perfect analogy...Sawyer hasn't shown a good guy side a'tall. *But I'm hoping its there because I find that type of trajectory appealing for some reason. Don't really know why.

Now on the other hand, the only really good guy in Casablanca is Ilsa's husband...can't remember his name...the Prime Minister of Czechoslovakia, or whatever the deal is. *This guy is a wholly good character, *presented as perfectly pure and heroic, confident, good, even a great man...a true capital H-hero. Yet he's not annoying like Jack (like Jack is to me, sorry Jack fans). *On the other hand, this Ilsa's husband guy...dude, he's boring! *And say what you will about Jack, he ain't boring...hell, we just created this long string of posts picking the guy to pieces.

Those are good points, but consider other evidence we have seen of Jack's moral code.* He was willing to be a party to torture because the victim(Sawyer) was a lesser person, in Jack's eyes, than his justification(Shannon).* That is, I believe, evidence to support my view of his twisted morality.* Would Jack have been willing to torture Claire for Sawyer's benefit, if Sawyer had asthma and Claire had the inhalers? I think not.

Since day one Jack and Sayid have been swallowing Sawyer's crap and, as is all too typical of people, they had what they considered a legit reason to give some back. Does it make it right? No. Does it make it predictable? Yes.

Sawyer knew that. It's what he wanted.

These folks are in a major stressful situation. I don't see Jack doing the same thing in the real world. I do see Sawyer acting the same.

Which is why he can not be trusted except to do what is best for himself. Someone stated he hasn't lied. I would add the word "yet". He hasn't really needed to but since most admit he acts first in self interest that means if he feels the need, he will lie, and easily.

He does it for a living.

Oh one more thing guys...after much thought, if my brother was the Unabomber, I would be able to justify turning him in because if he was creating such horrible destruction, heedless of the pain and injury he caused to others, I would be able to say to myself, "My brother is seriously ill. *He needs help, more help than I can possibly provide. *The consequences will be horrible for me and for him, but for the sake of his soul if nothing else (if such a thing exists,) I can honestly say it is at least in part for his own good if I turn him into the authorities."

whew...glad that wasn't me in his shoes. * *That has to be one of the tougher situations...truth is stranger than fiction.

ok, stopping rambling for today.

Where are you getting that he did it because he viewed Sawyer as a lesser person? *He viewed Sawyer as the person with the medicine to help this person who was suffocating in front of him--who the heck else was he going to go after? *Remember Sawyer was the one who started in with the attitude towards Jack, right from the very first episode, when Jack helped pull Sayid and Sawyer apart when Sawyer attacked Sayid for being a terrorist. *Sawyer started in with the attitude towards him right away. *I don't think it had anything to do with him thinking Sawyer was a lesser person--Sawyer treated him with contempt first. *Remember how cocky he was when he tried to shoot the marshal, thinking he'd shown Jack up? *He didn't it out of "mercy" he did it to try and show Jack up and then Jack ended up having to kill the man himself. * *

But I don't think for a second Jack viewed Sawyer as a lesser person, just a person who made trouble and that trouble at that moment was endangering Shannon's life. *He saved Sawyer's life too, even while Sawyer was taunting him. *And Jack had nothing to do with stabbing him, he tried to stop Sayid when he ran off towards Sawyer in a rage. *

Doesn't everybody find Rick irresistible?

No, can't say I do. I never really liked Casablanca. :) Not really into Rick or Lisa. ;) Can't say I felt much for either one.

And really why is Jack's situation any different than the unabomber's brother? Jack's father was sick, he was an alcoholic, he refused to get help or even seriously acknowledge he had a problem. He had already killed at least one person, who knows how many would have been to come?

And really why is Jack's situation any different than the unabomber's brother?* Jack's father was sick, he was an alcoholic, he refused to get help or even seriously acknowledge he had a problem.* He had already killed at least one person, who knows how many would have been to come?*


Well, I haven't been shown the Unabomber's brother's situation in such rich psychological detail as I have Jack's, and I wouldn't judge him if I had. He's a real guy who really had to go through that, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone and I really shouldn't even be talking like I know anything about what he went through, to be honest. In fact, I wasn't-- I was just saying what I hoped I would be able to do in his shoes. Which, humble thanks to whatever powers there be, I am not.

I mean, like I was saying earlier, if Jack was a real guy that all of us knew, I would be a lot more careful not to judge. But! Jack's a character on TV, so I've been finding it interesting to judge why I react to him the way that I do. And I'm interested in why you like him so much, and lots of others like him too, and I think your reasons are good, no, totally unquestionable, in fact. It's all quite personal though.

And you know, the Unabomber's intent was to murder and maim people. Jack's Dad was just in denial about the damage he was doing in failing to save people. Kinda different. Yeah he was BAD, but it's different!

Now, another point about Jack after watching tonight's episode just now...and DON'T worry this is not a spoiler, it's common knowledge...

....dang, that Matthew Fox guy is good-looking.

LOL! Who Foxy? Yeah...he's alright. ;) Wish they'd let him shave, maybe grow his hair out half an inch. They much have found some razors in all that luggage, surely the guys managed to grab some of them before the chicks made off with the rest(Hey we've got more to shave, legs, arms :) ).

You are right, I should have qualified that it was fictional as opposed to a real situation because of course I take a real situation much more seriously.

I don't think the fact that Jack's father was in denial is much more of reason though. He KNEW the consequences of his actions if he chose to be willfully blind to them, I don't feel that somehow excuses him.

I still don't see how any one could trust Locke more with a gun after tonight though. :) He's got too much of a personal agenda. When Kate mentioned to Jack that maybe Locke wasn't hunting for them anymore because he wasn't getting anything for it, it still seemed like something that Jack was surprised about, I think Jack really does try to put other people first. He may not always succeed and he may not always make the best decision but I do think he really does put a high priority on other people's well being.

too tired from tonights escapades to respond to everything just wanted to say that I agree with this point Lara....

Matthew is one SEXY man!!! MMMMMMM

I think tonight H&M, proved Jack is not judging Kate generally....Being upset/hurt by a lie I agree makes a person judgemental of the person lying in that moment, but we were talking in the context of Jack judging Kate for who she is and what she's done in her past...I think Jack better understood Kate's reasons of why she did what she did after she got upset...She was the one in the wrong, and it* was Jack that bridged the gap, which he wouldn't have done if he looked down upon her...I have to* :lol2: at the statement Jack is trying to get w/Kate ;) and that's why he's behaving as he is to her...Ppl were complaining how he wasn't responding enough to her flirtations... It would be *Sawyer* who is making the obvious moves to get in her trousers lol. Jack has taken a liking to Kate yes, but caring for her is different than trying to bed her*...* It's not his style to treat ppl w/respect and equality only to get a payoff. He invests his time, trust, and energy in ppl. He's in it for the long hall, not a love em and leave em.

All I can add to his father being turned in the way he was is Jack did the honorable, difficult, and rt thing. Horse patookies* ;) he wasn't discreet enough or cold enough..I couldn't be so emotionally detached from such a decision that I could crucify a person I love w/no conscience at the first sign of trouble-I'd give them a chance, or on the same token, be so uneffected by what it is they were doing, that I sat passively back ... Bottom line is the comittee was closing the case-and it was now or never. Was he going to wait for another case to go wrong? Or should he have destroyed his dad's heart ages ago?There was no easy answer here, and frankly no way to be more discreet. Jack tried to reason w/him in private, told him how he felt, even warned him he may turn in him in. Why? So his father would have a chance to do the rt thing on his own, but he didn't. Matter of fact, Jack's done that w/Kate not being forthcoming about the Marshal, allowing her to tell him the truth before opening the case, Sawyer and the inhalers(just tell me where the inhalers are, it doesn't have to be this way), and his dad...Basically he gives ppl a shot before taking action. I think that's a fair compromise between the two extremes of bringing down the axe and doing nothing.

banshee, got to the Hearts and MInds spoiler thread on Lost Media please, post some of that. :D Explain why Jack would "forgive" her(of course it's bad, it's Jack, Jack is always wrong, Jack is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't).

sure LW i'll post it but which LM forum and which thread? I looked at the Ep 13 spoilers and didn't see such discussion.

LOL!* Who Foxy?* Yeah...he's alright. ;)* Wish they'd let him shave, maybe grow his hair out half an inch.* *They much have found some razors in all that luggage, surely the guys managed to grab some of them before the chicks made off with the rest(Hey we've got more to shave, legs, arms :) ).*


It is so funny how the men's stubble stays exactly the same length for 3 weeks! I kind of like the stubbly look on Mr. Fox tho.

Also, I've been wondering when Kate is going to run out of mascara. :lol2:


I don't think the fact that Jack's father was in denial is much more of reason though.* He KNEW the consequences of his actions if he chose to be willfully blind to them, I don't feel that somehow excuses him.*


I don't want it to seem like I'm making excuses for Jack's Dad, I'm just saying, if that was my Dad...I think I'd go pretty far to find a way to be on his side. Please don't think that I'm in favor of innocent people dying! But it makes for good drama.


I think Jack really does try to put other people first.* He may not always succeed and he may* not always make the best decision but I do think he really does put a high priority on other people's well being.*


You know, he was a lot nicer to Kate on last night's episode and it kind of put me in a different place with the Jack character. If he had written her off after the briefcase thing, I would have been like, "whatever, he's hot and all, but I hope he's the next one to git eaten up." ;) But he seemed a bit humble and trying to make up to her, so then I was kinda like, "Awww...." I dunno, maybe I'll be a Jack fan yet.

But... Probably just when I start liking him again they'll kill him off!

Lara NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO dont say that!!!! Jack will not die!!!! :P hehe awww I &hearts; Jack....he was really good with Kate on last nights ep....when he brought her the guava (sp?) seeds....i almost died....so cute.....and the man is good-looking!

Lara NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO dont say that!!!! Jack will not die!!!!* :P

Sorrry sorry sorry!!!! :laugh: I shouldn'tve said that!!!! I take it back!!!!

Ok....<sniff>...thats better...<wipes tears>.....thank you..... ;D

hey Lara's alright with me* ;D she's at least tryin to see Jack for his sweetness :)

Some ppl were saying whatever-that Jack was too soft on her in HM, but he made it clear how he felt in WTCMB, and didn't glaze over things in HM-he gingerly reminded her "Sometimes it's hard to tell w/you" re:secrets. You could tell Kate was sheepish toward him having lied, but I loved how Jack was the one to reach out a hand. I knew he'd do that, and I think it's a testament to his character that he doesn't just drop you like a hot potato when you make a mistake, he has a great capacity for forgiveness and he invests in you for the long haul. He himself said* "he's not big on rubbing it in", and that was illustrated further when he showed genuine concern for Charlie, even when Charlie was a bit snarky toward him. Jack was there asking him how he was doing and giving him something to make him feel better. Plus he was trying to make Kate smile after he was the one hurt. How can you not like him for that. :)

Plus he was trying to make Kate smile after he was the one hurt. How can you not like him for that. :)


Sorry... how did Kate hurt Jack?

By not telling him what was in her suitcase? Aw, poor baby...

Nah, just kidding, I'm just being a jerk. He wears his heart on his sleeve, it was good of him to drop it, as long as it wasn't just different script writers not following through! ;)

yah don't tease like that Late ;) <in a cowardly lion voice says put em up put em up> LOL* :laugh:

I'll just answer even if it was a jestful q-Kate asked Jack to dig up a guy he buried in sentiment...Jack endures gagging, maggots, even asks Kate if she's alright and is willing to get the key for her so she doesn't have to reach in that mess, and then ahem-Kate takes advantage of his trust by trying to trick him that key wasn't in there. After all he just did for her I'd be pretty peeved too.

Jack said himself-he's not one to rub it in and think of how many times he's had to forgive his alcoholic father. I mean Charlie yelled at him, got him buried in a cave and dislocated his shoulder-could've been peeved at Charlie-but he wasn't. Sawyer said he'd watch Jack die, Jack pinches off his artery w/his fingers (ewwwwww) and even after he says he Kate made out-comes to change his bandages. Kate kinda omitted the fact she knew the Marshal etc etc. So I think it's in Jack's character vs. a writer's glitch.

From his past we can deduce that Jack has learned to forgive the imperfections of those around him. He learned at an early age how to live with and even love someone less than perfect. He lived with someone who was not very nice to him (dad) and so is able to let it go and get past it, at least on the surface.

So, for the time being, he can get past what Kate has done. For now.