In all the hype for these past two episodes we were supposed to come to some sort of understanding of Ana-Lucia and sympathize with her. Understanding, yes. Sympathy? I'm sorry, but they really shouldn't try to push the "bad girl with a reason" thing. She's not as forgivable or lovable as Sawyer, and most of it's because she's in charge. I think it'll be the episodes to come that'll make her likable, because she'll be outcasted and stripped of the power she clings to so dearly.

The only thing in this episode that gave me the slightest bit of sympathy to her was at the very, very end when she looked at Jack. It was the most naked and unguarded expression. She was truly scared and sorry.

I think shooting Shannon is what will eventually lead her to be a decent human being. She wouldn't have assumed power at all in the main camp had she been with them from the start. The fusies don't want a cop telling them what to do. Sure she helped Bernard and the others survive, but not without letting them know that they were worthless maggots who couldn't do it without her. That's not really helping someone survive. That's just keeping them alive.

When her own flock abandoned her, I finally realized where the storyline was headed. Her flirtation with Jack in the airport was so dead-on to her personality. It was comandeering and meant to be strong and belittling while playing off someone else's weakness. Now I think she's finally going to understand that Jack Sheppard don't play that. He's aint nobody's bitch. Ana-Lucia will be sad and helpless, and be begging for his affection. Wow. Now I like her. Now she's actually about thirty times more attractive, too. The shell's gone, and it's just a scared girl underneath.

Jack's in charge, baby. Better bring him roses.

Ana-Lucia is a pathetic, insecure and immature little girl who tries to make up for her weaknesses via bravado and strut.

Great episode. Lost is just an awesome show. That said, I didn't learn anything tonight that makes me like Ana-Lucia any more. Murdering the bad guy at the end of her flashback was just an awful deed, far worse than Sawyer's murder of the shrimp guy because A-L was supposed to be upholding the law. She's someone who craves authority but has no respect for same. And, based upon what we saw in the last episode, her claim to have kept the tailies alive strikes me as an exaggeration.

Damon was on the LB last night. he made a few comments about Ana
and what the posters had to say about her. check it out. :biggrin:

AL was only in charge because she had a gun.

TheGreenSaga, we're terribly sorry you feel that way. We'll change the script around just so you can like Ana-Lucia

I don't like AL at all. I do feel sorry for her because she lost her baby, but hey, that's a risk you take being a cop, and a patrol cop at that especially in LA (am I right about that?). She had an opportunity to put that guy away, and she shot him in cold blood anyways. Now how many people has she managed to kill in 48 days? Shannon, Goodwin, Nathan if she had the chance, Sawyer if they would have let her, and then she threatened Libby, Bernard, Michael, Jin...................Somehow I am NOT overwhelmed with her humanity.

Wdnesday: Actually, she was the defunct leader of the Tallies before she had a gun...

I have to agree with the title of this thread. If anything, AL's flashbacks actually made me like her less rather than sympathize with her. I'm finding it hard for the writers to redeem her character now that they continue to make her such a remorseless you-know-what. What was the point of a flashback if all that we saw turned out to be the same as what we see on the island every episode?

In contrast, I'm liking Eko more and more every week...

Very well put The Green Saga...I agree with everything you said!!! Thank you for posting!

I think Mr. Ecko is actually emergent as the tailees leader.

Ana Lucia is on the verge of a psychological melt. Libby and Jack will help her but not easily or willingly.

Great episode. Lost is just an awesome show. That said, I didn't learn anything tonight that makes me like Ana-Lucia any more. Murdering the bad guy at the end of her flashback was just an awful deed, far worse than Sawyer's murder of the shrimp guy because A-L was supposed to be upholding the law. She's someone who craves authority but has no respect for same. And, based upon what we saw in the last episode, her claim to have kept the tailies alive strikes me as an exaggeration.

She most definitley kept the tailies alive. It was clear in the last episode that AL and Ecko were the two leaders of the group. And what kind of leader was Ecko who wouldn't even talk for 40 days?? As much as she asserted herself as the leader she also was pushed into the position by necessity and the vulnerability of the tailies.

Her murder was worse than Sawyer's?? that she has no respect for authority?? I felt the exact opposite. She is from a cop family, she grew up in a world of authority and law. She probably knew that the man who killed her child would serve 5 years and then be free to go. She made a judgement call and brought justice into her own hands. Sawyer was essentially a hit man, killing an innocent man. They both sought justice on those who caused them pain, at least AL used her emotions to a practical end.

The key to understanding AL is to understand that she blames herself and only herself for the death of her unborn child. She is a cop who lives by procedure, and she broke procedure when she allowed the burglar to reach for his "ID". She killed the burglar on her own terms, outside of the justice system....but I don't beleive that gave her closure. I bet her being in Austrailia will have something to do with that.

If that's not enough to sympathize with here than how about her mother?? She seemed cold and detatched, especially taking into consideration that her grandchild was killed and her daughter shot. I believe that the mother knew that AL was going to kill him when she said "do you really want him out on the street?". Seemed like she knew what AL was thinking.

But the most telling moment for me was when she was on the domestic disturbance call and she gave a long and heartfelt look at the baby. That was the emotional AL, and what that triggered was the AL we all know, gun totin and on the edge. She is a protector by nature, to whichever means neccesary. Not a bad person to have on an island like that.

Wdnesday: Actually, she was the defunct leader of the Tallies before she had a gun...

Yeah, true. But in this episode, her authority was falling apart as people were leaving her and standing up to her. She was only holding things together with the gun. Before, people needed the authority to tell them what to do.

I was just saying to my husband, I hate AL even more after today...I need to check out the Fuselage...and what do you know...I'm not the only one. She should be reminded that it takes more muscles to frown than to smile. What a sour puss...gosh, she could make a guy on death row look like as joyful as Richard Simmons. Get over yourself AL.

Damon was on the LB last night. he made a few comments about Ana
and what the posters had to say about her. check it out. :biggrin:

Where is that?

I definitely have more sympathy for her. It's obvious that the base motivation of her actions is the killing of her unborn child. And yes, it's the shooting of Shannon that is a huge realization for her. I think we'll see a different Ana Lucia from now on.

Great episode. Lost is just an awesome show. That said, I didn't learn anything tonight that makes me like Ana-Lucia any more. Murdering the bad guy at the end of her flashback was just an awful deed, far worse than Sawyer's murder of the shrimp guy because A-L was supposed to be upholding the law. She's someone who craves authority but has no respect for same. And, based upon what we saw in the last episode, her claim to have kept the tailies alive strikes me as an exaggeration.

I felt the exact same. I loved the episode, but I still hate AL, perhaps moreso. If anything, I will respect her for being honest with Sayid, and he with her, which is why I suspect she spared him. He may be her closest thing to an ally in the next little while, since nobody else respects her. But, even with her arrogant trigger happy persona, I'm glad she's on the show simply because she adds another dimension, and conflict. :)

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who can't stand her, I was feeling like an AL myself for not feeling sorry for her even after she lost her baby... but really that whole episode solidified her B-status in my mind, like I really can't stand her and not in a "love to hate" kind of way... I wonder if her character is truly on the road to redemption or self-destruction?

I nearly peed my pants with laughter when Libby pulled a Sawyerism saying "I just don't think you are the best judge of character!" Brilliant Libby! Besides, didn't she have only one bullet, and didn't she use it on Shannon, so weren't her threats empty!?! She just seems like a total psycho, and I thought Kate had problems, makes her look like Mother Teresa!

Damon was on the LB last night. he made a few comments about Ana
and what the posters had to say about her. check it out. :biggrin:


what's the LB? and how do I find it?

If that's not enough to sympathize with here than how about her mother?? She seemed cold and detatched, especially taking into consideration that her grandchild was killed and her daughter shot. I believe that the mother knew that AL was going to kill him when she said "do you really want him out on the street?". Seemed like she knew what AL was thinking.

But the most telling moment for me was when she was on the domestic disturbance call and she gave a long and heartfelt look at the baby. That was the emotional AL, and what that triggered was the AL we all know, gun totin and on the edge. She is a protector by nature, to whichever means neccesary. Not a bad person to have on an island like that.

Nope, I felt a lot more sympathy for her mother having to be her boss. Her mother wanted to take care of it LEGALLY, as opposed to AL's revenge on her own terms. Which she should be doing anyway since she was police captain. And her mother knew AL would not deal well with patrol duty since she had not properly dealt with the loss of the unborn baby. So her mother tried to protect her by putting her on desk duty, which AL promptly objected to and demanded to be tranferred. Her mother had her best interests in mind, whereas AL's motive was to get back to work to find this guy to exact her revenge.

In all the hype for these past two episodes we were supposed to come to some sort of understanding of Ana-Lucia and sympathize with her. Understanding, yes. Sympathy? I'm sorry, but they really shouldn't try to push the "bad girl with a reason" thing. She's not as forgivable or lovable as Sawyer, and most of it's because she's in charge. I think it'll be the episodes to come that'll make her likable, because she'll be outcasted and stripped of the power she clings to so dearly.

I have to agree. I understood why she did what she did, and the way she acted, but it didn't engender a lot of sympathy for her until the end.

This episode has dragged her character to the lowest low point she's had on the island. She killed someone. All her friends, the people she's protected for 48 days left her. She was going to let Sayid kill her.

I agree that future episodes will definitely make her more sympathetic.

what's the LB? and how do I find it?

The LB is the linear board.
There is a link at the top of the page and the linear board is the home page.When you get to the LB scroll down the right hand side and you can find all the latest VIP posts in the VIP archive.

Here is part of what Damon said last night . His username is the Nomad

Man, you guys are BRUTAL on the Ana Lucia
tip...

Well, what can we say?

Some characters you sympathize with, others
you don't. Just remember... it's a long (and
winding) road.

I still love you all.

If you go into the archive and hit the context button by this post, you will see the posts that led to his response.

She is from a cop family, she grew up in a world of authority and law. She probably knew that the man who killed her child would serve 5 years and then be free to go. She made a judgement call and brought justice into her own hands.

How does that make her better? Revenge killing the guy is in my understanding worse than simple homicide. That in the shooting he killed her to-be child was even more an accident as her shooting Shannon, killing Nathan by negligence, threatening Sawyer's life by the same...

No, she combines violence with bad judgement to a level that I would feel best around her, when she was tied to a tree with the monster watching after her.

Well, I often feel like beating some of the characters in the face, especially if they insist on not talking or pay tribute to egyptian rivers and other irrational behaviour, but Ana is definitely a terrible person. + gun-toting cops just creep me out


The key to understanding AL is to understand that she blames herself and only herself for the death of her unborn child. She is a cop who lives by procedure, and she broke procedure when she allowed the burglar to reach for his "ID". She killed the burglar on her own terms, outside of the justice system....but I don't beleive that gave her closure.

No, but it makes her a murderer...

But the most telling moment for me was when she was on the domestic disturbance call and she gave a long and heartfelt look at the baby. That was the emotional AL, and what that triggered was the AL we all know, gun totin and on the edge. She is a protector by nature, to whichever means neccesary. Not a bad person to have on an island like that.

And her reaction to the situation was totally uncontrolled and excessive. A person with such poor judgement is nowhere a good one to have around. Especially not on an island, but, hey, I'm not there! So let's see into what interesting conflicts this will get us. I sense some interesting storylines coming up

Philipp

ditto on kudos to her mom, I like that actress, wish there had been more of her in the show, she always rocks!

I would have to agree with GreenSage. After last night and they way she treated everyone, like firing an extra shot, i was just mad!!! Chill out lady!!!

how did she fire that extra shot!?! I thought she only had one bullet?

thanks addicted2much... I've never posted there before, I don't get it's structure, just post whatever?

how did she fire that extra shot!?! I thought she only had one bullet?

She fired it from Sayid's gun.

Philipp

Actually I have to disagree with you. Shooting Shannon will be the thing that finally pushes her over the edge. If you think they've gotten away from the Others because they've found the Lostaways. your wrong. And when people start disappearing from this camp as well it's just going to push her more beyond what she is capible of handling mentally.

As far as supposing to like or hate her? I dunno. It's way too soon to judge how it's all gonna turn out.

She most definitley kept the tailies alive. It was clear in the last episode that AL and Ecko were the two leaders of the group. And what kind of leader was Ecko who wouldn't even talk for 40 days?? As much as she asserted herself as the leader she also was pushed into the position by necessity and the vulnerability of the tailies.

Her murder was worse than Sawyer's?? that she has no respect for authority?? I felt the exact opposite. She is from a cop family, she grew up in a world of authority and law. She probably knew that the man who killed her child would serve 5 years and then be free to go. She made a judgement call and brought justice into her own hands. Sawyer was essentially a hit man, killing an innocent man. They both sought justice on those who caused them pain, at least AL used her emotions to a practical end.

The key to understanding AL is to understand that she blames herself and only herself for the death of her unborn child. She is a cop who lives by procedure, and she broke procedure when she allowed the burglar to reach for his "ID". She killed the burglar on her own terms, outside of the justice system....but I don't beleive that gave her closure. I bet her being in Austrailia will have something to do with that.

If that's not enough to sympathize with here than how about her mother?? She seemed cold and detatched, especially taking into consideration that her grandchild was killed and her daughter shot. I believe that the mother knew that AL was going to kill him when she said "do you really want him out on the street?". Seemed like she knew what AL was thinking.

But the most telling moment for me was when she was on the domestic disturbance call and she gave a long and heartfelt look at the baby. That was the emotional AL, and what that triggered was the AL we all know, gun totin and on the edge. She is a protector by nature, to whichever means neccesary. Not a bad person to have on an island like that.
Sorry but anyone that shoots or kills a cop does not do 5 years. They get the max. The system always protects its own.

Whether or not she's a likable character, at least we now understand how she got to be that way. Everything from her trust issues to her need to protect kids to her alienation from everyone else was set up pretty good.

It's up for debate whether her actions were in anyway justified by what she's been through. But consider that had Sayid not been around, Shannon would have shot an innocent Locke, and she's been through far less than AL

Am I the only not completely buying her losing her kid as, if not an justification but at least an explanation, of her actions? I mean, seeing as her losing that kid was partly due to her own incompetence? I'm pretty sure the LAPD have a how-to book on how to interact and apprehend potential criminals, and lowering ones gun is probably not in it.

Also, if you are pregnant, you might not want to do any patrolling.

Am I the only not completely buying her losing her kid as, if not an justification but at least an explanation, of her actions? I mean, seeing as her losing that kid was partly due to her own incompetence? I'm pretty sure the LAPD have a how-to book on how to interact and apprehend potential criminals, and lowering ones gun is probably not in it.

Also, if you are pregnant, you might not want to do any patrolling.


I agree with you. I don't know what she is even doing back on the job after the shooting of her and her partner. I can't stand Ana either.

It was comandeering and meant to be strong and belittling while playing off someone else's weakness. Now I think she's finally going to understand that Jack Sheppard don't play that. He's aint nobody's vincent. Ana-Lucia will be sad and helpless, and be begging for his affection. Wow. Now I like her. Now she's actually about thirty times more attractive, too. The shell's gone, and it's just a scared girl underneath.

Jack's in charge, baby. Better bring him roses.

So a woman has to be beat down, submissive, distraught, and weak to be attractive? Wow....that's scary that you think that. And, what is this idea you have of Jack as being mr. giant schlong 'Ana be my bitch' idea? What show are YOU watching? He's the smitten one....all you have to do is open your eyes and ACTUALLY watch the show before you talk about it. :)

No, but it makes her a murderer...
Hear, hear.

And her reaction to the situation was totally uncontrolled and excessive. A person with such poor judgement is nowhere a good one to have around. Especially not on an island, but, hey, I'm not there! So let's see into what interesting conflicts this will get us. I sense some interesting storylines coming up
You could have a point, but I honestly have no interest in seeing ANY storylines, "interesting" or otherwise, that involve Ana Lucia. She's a psycho headcase unlikeable character, and if they were going to try and make her sympathetic, they had the chance last night - - and failed miserably, IMO. Her flashbacks only made me want her to get eaten by the Island Monster that much faster. She's annoying beyond belief...I think she may be the first fictional television character that I've ever bothered to summon enough energy to genuinely loathe.

Just sayin'. :)

So a woman has to be beat down, submissive, distraught, and weak to be attractive? Wow....that's scary that you think that. And, what is this idea you have of Jack as being mr. giant schlong 'Ana be my vincent' idea? What show are YOU watching? He's the smitten one....all you have to do is open your eyes and ACTUALLY watch the show before you talk about it. :)


Ana and Jack have the same personalities. They both have to be in charge. Actually they were put in charge because of their strong personlities. I personally feel that Ana would not thrive if there are 2 people with such strong personalities. But she will probably be welcomed by Jack. I don't know about the rest of the losties. I think they may have some sort of a grudge since she shot Shannon. Even though it was an accident.

So a woman has to be beat down, submissive, distraught, and weak to be attractive? Wow....that's scary that you think that. And, what is this idea you have of Jack as being mr. giant schlong 'Ana be my vincent' idea? What show are YOU watching? He's the smitten one....all you have to do is open your eyes and ACTUALLY watch the show before you talk about it. :)
WHAT does any of this have to do with her being attractive? I think you're missing the whole point. Who cares if she's attractive or not? What does a pretty face have to do with her vile personality? Nothing. You're linking those that don't like her to whether she's attractive or not is what's scary. I could be blind and not like her ... and I'll bet those here that don't like her will agree with me. It's about character, not attractiveness. At least that's the show I'm watching ... don't know about you, though.
Whether or not she's a likable character, at least we now understand how she got to be that way. Everything from her trust issues to her need to protect kids to her alienation from everyone else was set up pretty good.

It's up for debate whether her actions were in anyway justified by what she's been through. But consider that had Sayid not been around, Shannon would have shot an innocent Locke, and she's been through far less than AL
No backstory can justify her actions of killing someone in cold blook that was set to go through the system and get sent to prison for what he did. It might explain her actions, but it can never justify them. We all make our own choices. She chose to do the wrong thing ... and continues to do the wrong thing thus far.
Am I the only not completely buying her losing her kid as, if not an justification but at least an explanation, of her actions? I mean, seeing as her losing that kid was partly due to her own incompetence? I'm pretty sure the LAPD have a how-to book on how to interact and apprehend potential criminals, and lowering ones gun is probably not in it.

Also, if you are pregnant, you might not want to do any patrolling.
No you're not. And while that might be part of why she's now the way she is, it's not good enough in my book.

Worse than Sawyer? They were both out for revenge, Ana shot the correct person for revenge and shot Shannon by accident. She show’s remorse for shooting Shannon. Sawyer shot an innocent 3rd party in his revenge attempt and shot the Marshal in the wrong place in a misguided mercy killing. Sawyer shows no remorse for killing. Charlie shot Ethan in revenge, Locke’s judgment resulted in Boone’s death and Kate’s actions resulted in her friend’s death when he insisted on staying with her despite her being pursued by police. Kate shows remorse.

I don’t think Ana’s mistakes are any worse than the other characters. I also think she shows higher moral values than Sawyer. I like her better after this episode. She has more of a reason for the chip on her shoulder than Sawyer did. Her motives are every bit as understandable as Sawyers.

WHAT does any of this have to do with her being attractive? I think you're missing the whole point. Who cares if she's attractive or not? What does a pretty face have to do with her vile personality? Nothing. You're linking those that don't like her to whether she's attractive or not is what's scary. I could be blind and not like her ... and I'll bet those here that don't like her will agree with me. It's about character, not attractiveness. At least that's the show I'm watching ... don't know about you, though.
.

How bout you actually read what I was quoting, thanks. That person said that at her current state, which they view as basically an emotionally raped position, she's much more attractive....you want to ask your question to THAT person I think since THEY were the ones who made such a rediculous comment.

Worse than Sawyer? They were both out for revenge, Ana shot the correct person for revenge and shot Shannon by accident. She show’s remorse for shooting Shannon. Sawyer shot an innocent 3rd party in his revenge attempt and shot the Marshal in the wrong place in a misguided mercy killing. Sawyer shows no remorse for killing. Charlie shot Ethan in revenge, Locke’s judgment resulted in Boone’s death and Kate’s actions resulted in her friend’s death when he insisted on staying with her despite her being pursued by police. Kate shows remorse.

I don’t think Ana’s mistakes are any worse than the other characters. I also think she shows higher moral values than Sawyer. I like her better after this episode. She has more of a reason for the chip on her shoulder than Sawyer did. Her motives are every bit as understandable as Sawyers.
I totally agree with you.

Worse than Sawyer? They were both out for revenge, Ana shot the correct person for revenge and shot Shannon by accident. She show’s remorse for shooting Shannon. Sawyer shot an innocent 3rd party in his revenge attempt and shot the Marshal in the wrong place in a misguided mercy killing. Sawyer shows no remorse for killing. Charlie shot Ethan in revenge, Locke’s judgment resulted in Boone’s death and Kate’s actions resulted in her friend’s death when he insisted on staying with her despite her being pursued by police. Kate shows remorse.

I don’t think Ana’s mistakes are any worse than the other characters. I also think she shows higher moral values than Sawyer. I like her better after this episode. She has more of a reason for the chip on her shoulder than Sawyer did. Her motives are every bit as understandable as Sawyers.


It seems to me that Sawyer is very troubled over shooting the wrong person.


Ana was in a place(USA) that has a system of punishing criminals. She decided to take the law into her own hands.
Charlie shot Ethan on an island with no accepted set of rules.

Yoyo....me too....and lets not forget that Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Sayid, Danielle, AND Charlie have all murdered someone either on or off the island, or both. But only Ana is the cold blooded murderer, even though her reason was possibly the most justifiable of all. I think that says a lot about that viewpoint. And the fact that people still hold onto that as a reason to loathe her since they refuse to acknowledge how she's done is the exact same as half the regular castaways makes their point even more unsubstantial.

It seems to me that Sawyer is very troubled over shooting the wrong person.


Ana was in a place(USA) that has a system of punishing criminals. She decided to take the law into her own hands.
Charlie shot Ethan on an island with no accepted set of rules.
So your saying if there weren't any rules where I live I should just shoot anybody I see?

I'm not surprised that I like AL no better now that before the Collision episode. I had thought previously that if the writers could pull some empathy for Ana from me that I would bow down and worship them as gods. They're still mortal it seems... I think the only way that AL can be redeemed is through her death. I think we'll see her give her life for someone, probably Claire or the baby, and we'll all feel a lot better about her then.

I can see the possibility of a triangle developing between Claire, Charlie and Ana (not necessarily romantic). Ana will have her emotional reaction to the sight of the baby and wish to protect the baby and Claire. Claire is wanting some space from Charlie, but still needs help with the baby, and AL would be perfect for that. Perhaps we'll see a more maternal side out of Ana which will help endear her to us.

So your saying if there weren't any rules where I live I should just shoot anybody I see?


The criminal justice system in America is based on what society feels is moral. Where there are no rules, there is no society. If you were to live in such a place, who is to say that killing random people is wrong?

I said that because you said Charlie shot Ethan because there were no rules. I said that because that isn't an excuse for him shooting Ethan. He shot Ethan because he didn't want him coming back after Claire again.:smile:

How bout you actually read what I was quoting, thanks. That person said that at her current state, which they view as basically an emotionally raped position, she's much more attractive....you want to ask your question to THAT person I think since THEY were the ones who made such a rediculous comment.
Woah, chill out please. I looked back at your post and you're right and I'm sorry that I directed my post to you. But no need to be rude. Thanks. :smile:
Worse than Sawyer? They were both out for revenge, Ana shot the correct person for revenge and shot Shannon by accident. She show’s remorse for shooting Shannon. Sawyer shot an innocent 3rd party in his revenge attempt and shot the Marshal in the wrong place in a misguided mercy killing. Sawyer shows no remorse for killing. Charlie shot Ethan in revenge, Locke’s judgment resulted in Boone’s death and Kate’s actions resulted in her friend’s death when he insisted on staying with her despite her being pursued by police. Kate shows remorse.

I don’t think Ana’s mistakes are any worse than the other characters. I also think she shows higher moral values than Sawyer. I like her better after this episode. She has more of a reason for the chip on her shoulder than Sawyer did. Her motives are every bit as understandable as Sawyers.
Bottome line ... she was a cop. A cop is beyond the revenge mode. Once they go to that level they are aptly titled Bad Cop.

And I do believe that Sawyer has shown remorse and a lot of it. Locke's judgement call? So Boone had no say in going into the plane? I must have missed the scene where Locke put a gun to his head and made him go in. Boone is responsible for his own actions just like AL is for hers.

And how can Kate be held responsible for her old bf's death? What was she supposed to do? Push him out of his own car?

Sure they've all done something bad (with the exception of maybe Rose, Hurley, Sun and Claire) but being a cop is a big issue in one's actions. It's bad enough when normal citizens take the law into their own hands but when a cop does ... that's madness of a whole nother level.

oh yeah peopole (being nice her :D) WELL I LIKE ANA LUCIA :P i still feel bad for her and that inside she is just trying to get through this like the other people are doing. and she is still a caring person because she was crying and eko made her feel better and yeah pretty much, I LIKE HER AND THERES NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT


~The End~

oh yeah peopole (being nice her :D) WELL I LIKE ANA LUCIA :P i still feel bad for her and that inside she is just trying to get through this like the other people are doing. and she is still a caring person because she was crying and eko made her feel better and yeah pretty much, I LIKE HER AND THERES NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT


~The End~
Rachel, she was crying for herself not for the wrong she's done ... not for losing her baby. She was feeling sorry for herself.

I think she was crying because she had so much pressure on herself plus she was holding up all her feelings until then. I would cry to if I was on an island like that.

People need to relax on hating AL. The lack of sympathy for her is kind of ridiculous in my mind. I actually think people are associating AL with Michelle Rodriguez who seems to be generally unliked in the Fuselage...anyway back to the character....

I feel like most people have a problem with her attitude, but in my mind it is completely justified and actually the most realistic mindset of all the survivors. Remember, she really was in charge of keeping the tailies alive; from what we know that was a job that was destined for failure and yet she kept vigilant. No doubt that at night when Bernard Libby and company were resting easy she had the burden of protection upon her. Of course she would always be on edge. It would be irrational not to be on edge. AL, above the others, is predisposed to feeling responsible for the safety of the rest of the survivors.

She has had an incredibly taxing, stressfull, and demanding time on the island, more so than any other person on the entire island.

More than Jack, the leader on the other side, whose greatest concern the first week was finding water and dealing with boars. That first week she was watching her camp get raided and her fellow castaways get snatched by ridiculously creepy people. If any person should be excused for their actions recently, it should be AL.

And anyone who has lost a child can tell you that your thoughts may be irrational and you may act upon them.
Do you think for a second that Michael would not shoot every single "other" he can find if he could?
AL had the means to act upon that maternal/paternal instinct, and she did. Ten times more justified than Sawyer's killing.....

[quote=foggynotion;626067
AL had the means to act upon that maternal/paternal instinct, and she did.quote]


AL had the means and she took advantage to commit an immoral act of revenge. IMHO she now falls into the same category of "bad guys" as all the other authority figures, ie priests, elected officials, rogue cops, etc, who use their position to their advantage and immoral ends. We've seen too many of them in the news in recent months to somehow feel sympathy for a police officer who abuses authority. By the same token, we've seen too many corrupt or dishonest authority figures in real life to get enraged by a fictional one.

I'm really disappointed in this flashback reveal because I liked AL up until last night's episode. I admired her strength, her ability to lead, and her ability to shepard the rest of the tailies.

But AL's flashbacks did not make me sympathize with her further, nor did they make me hate her. They just left me wishing she had gotten that backpack of necessities and vanished into the jungle.

Woah, chill out please. I looked back at your post and you're right and I'm sorry that I directed my post to you. But no need to be rude. Thanks. :smile:



Sorry bout that, guess I'm just sick and tired of people misreading and misinterpreting my posts like they do the episodes. But you saw so that's cool.

Controversleigh - Good call on what you said. I was afraid when I posted it that it might sound like something completely different. No, of course I don't think she's more attractive because she's beat down and submissive. Nonono.

I think she became more attractive because she became real.

Power and domination can be very attractive and appealing. There's nothing sexist about it. It works both ways. But someone who's weak pretending to be strong and making everyone else around her feel weak and useless... there's nothing less attractive. It's an ugly personality that's so outward and prominent that it destroys physical beauty.

And for the person who suggested that the script be rewritten - I interpret your comment as a hasty defense, not a meditated counter-argument. Therefore I forgive you for being slightly rude. It happens. But I think you misunderstood my post.

My post was about how I do not agree with Mr. Lindelof's prediction that Ana-Lucia is now more likeable and easier to sympathize with. I was actually very happy with the way the episode turned out. As a matter of fact, I thought it was brilliant. Finally, for once, we have someone who we can't just forgive and say "oh, but look what happened to her beforehand". I think that's what we were all expecting, and to tell you the truth it was starting to become a bit of a cliche. I wouldn't want the script changed at any price. It was an exquisite step forward on the behalf of the writers.

I wasn't saying there was anything wrong; I was only saying that if the goal was to make her more likable then it failed... and thankfully so. If it was truly the intent of the writers, then we have what's called a "happy accident". Serendipity. She wasn't supposed to be bad, but now she is. Work with it. Carry the show's thread from there. Jesus, do they all have to be good guys? I love how the cripple, the ex-torturer, the former chauvenist, the construction worker and the international fugitive make up most of the moral strength and/or wisdom on the island. We already have the doctor who does good things. How about the cop who does bad things? How about the cop who tracked down and shot an unarmed man for the sake of the premeditated revenge of an unborn fetus not but a few months along? How about the cop who made an un-democratic judgment on an innocent man, dug a hole for two days straight, physically injured him, and threw him in the hole for over three days without any food or water... all because it took him a little bit longer to take a piss three weeks beforehand. How about the cop who learned of her mistake and showed no remorse for it at all? How about the cop who claims to want to protect people but actively tries to convince everyone to leave an injured man behind... a man who got his injury trying to protect a ten-year-old kid from the people she's so afraid of?

How about the cop who belittles everyone around her and assumes control in any situation and makes everyone else feel small and intimidated... oh, wait... that's what cops usually do. Nevermind.

But how about the cop who, after learning that the owner of the gun is perfectly allowed to have it, confiscates it and displays a quick and paranoid judgment when she decides to use it? How about the cop who deals with this situation by once again taking control, tying up an innocent man, and ordering everyone around as if she were perfectly in the right? How about the cop who comes close to killing the innocent man just because she herself is afraid of living with her own guilt?

How about the cop who only realizes her own delusions once everyone has abandoned her?

That's an awesome character. A bad guy. Someone who can grow and become a better person. That's what the show's all about. It's about lost people finding themselves on the island. She's a bad guy. Plain and simple. But her arc towards becoming a good and likable person is what will make her part in the show so intriguing.

We can't always expect that a series of flashbacks will suddenly turn bad people into good. It doesn't always work that way. That's why I think this episode was so brilliant. If anything, they should've left out the whole pregnancy thing. That didn't really do anything for me. It didn't make much sense for the character. They should've had AL kill Jason simply because she was outraged that he tried to shoot her long ago. That deep, psychological threading seems more fitting for her. If there's anything wrong with the writing, I think it's that they chickened out when it came to that. Show some balls! Make her a ruthless killer! She already is, so why add the pregnancy thing? Let her become good.

No bother. For those of you who buy the sympathy thing, you'll enjoy watching the character become even better. For those of you, like me, who don't buy it, we can watch her grow.

Here we are, all talking about it. Arguing about it. Getting heated. That's the sign of a gooooood show.

If she'd been revealed to be a misunderstood good girl, we wouldn't all be here. Lost is fantastic, and I see her murder of Jason as an amazingly unexpected plot twist in the opposite direction that you'd expect. Revealing her as even more bad, and more crazy, is one of the best flashback-related twists yet. I can't wait till next week.

I hate her more. She was an idiot for going out on a call when she was pregnant. Even I know not to let a suspect reach for anything, but she lets a suspect go for an ID? Instead of letting the justice system take over, she went all Charles Bronson. I could see that coming a mile away.

She killed Shannon, bullied the other tailways, and is an all-around hateful person. Anybody is strong and tough when they have a gun in their hands. Lots of women have miscarriages, but they don't go around killing people.

Been watching patiently about AL character in the other 48 days and collision. Still don't get how she gets to be so violent and uncaring. Yes she was shot and lost her baby but that wasn't anyone's fault other than the guy she already killed. So what's her problem with all these innocent people. She still too hitler to my taste, Sorry she's got to do more than getting shot and losing her baby to get me like her.

People need to relax on hating AL. The lack of sympathy for her is kind of ridiculous in my mind. I actually think people are associating AL with Michelle Rodriguez who seems to be generally unliked in the Fuselage...anyway back to the character....


Nope. I got no problems with Michelle Rodriguez. She's an actor doing a job. I've never seen her in anything else and don't feel I've seen enough of her in Lost to judge her talent. I know absolutely nothing about her aside from what I've seen of her on my screen for the past few Wednesdays.

Ana-Lucia, on the other hand, I loathe, detest, and hate. I'm entitled to--she's a fictional character who is not going to be harmed by my detestation.

There's no connection between the two.

I dislike Ana-Lucia very, very much. Only an exceptional actress could instill such emotion in me. Michelle Rodriguez does an amazing job portraying the character. I think the fact that so many people detest the character is an enormous credit to Rodriguez' acting ability, and possibly an example of how an actress can take a script and add much more to it. If you can hate a character so much, the actor/actress must be doing a damn fine job.

Originally, I had found her gutsy, now... although I understand where Ana Lucia is coming from, my gut reaction is that I really don't like her.

-NotPurgatory

Oh my Jesus you have a big sceen name!

(and I thought mine was big)

:D

Ana-Lucia is a pathetic, insecure and immature little girl who tries to make up for her weaknesses via bravado and strut. But wait, didnt she have some traumatic event in her life, that gives her carte-blanche to bully around anyone, treat others like crap, threaten the life of anyone who gets in her way or disagrees with her? Isnt she simply a "strong, independant" person?

Her murder was worse than Sawyer's?? that she has no respect for authority?? I felt the exact opposite. She is from a cop family, she grew up in a world of authority and law. She probably knew that the man who killed her child would serve 5 years and then be free to go. She made a judgement call and brought justice into her own hands. Sawyer was essentially a hit man, killing an innocent man. They both sought justice on those who caused them pain, at least AL used her emotions to a practical end.

I'm from a police family and there is no way that I'd make that same choice. It's cops like her that give the rest of us a bad name. I don't see how her emotions were practical in any sense of the word.

The key to understanding AL is to understand that she blames herself and only herself for the death of her unborn child. She is a cop who lives by procedure, and she broke procedure when she allowed the burglar to reach for his "ID".

If she only blames herself then she does a bad job of showing that seeing as she went as far as to kill the guy in cold blood. That's also no excuse to go around taking her feelings out on everyone else.

If that's not enough to sympathize with her than how about her mother?? She seemed cold and detatched, especially taking into consideration that her grandchild was killed and her daughter shot. I believe that the mother knew that AL was going to kill him when she said "do you really want him out on the street?". Seemed like she knew what AL was thinking

There's no way AL should've been working directly under her anyway. The biggest problem with her letting him go is not only is it completely against police procedure but it's also dangerous because what if he decided to hurt other people while she let him go? Stupid. Her mother was trying to make the right choice in the matter but as we already know Ana Lucia is too hard headed for that.

But the most telling moment for me was when she was on the domestic disturbance call and she gave a long and heartfelt look at the baby. That was the emotional AL, and what that triggered was the AL we all know, gun totin and on the edge. She is a protector by nature, to whichever means neccesary. Not a bad person to have on an island like that.

To me it is a bad thing because it's all fine and good if she wants to protect people but you don't go about that by making bad impulsive decisions, beating on others, or ordering people around. I haven't seen this supposed emotional side that some have. Maybe it's the actress and I don't personally get that from her, I don't know. But so far, haven't seen any remorse or sympathy.

It baffles me to see how Ana-Lucia is widely despised and hated when compared to Sawyer she has been a much better person from what we've seen. She did murder Jason in cold blood, which is very similar to how Sawyer killed Frank Duckett. There are some telling differences though. Ana-Lucia's pain was less than a year old, while Sawyer's was more than 25 years old. Ana-Lucia murdered the man that caused her to lose her child, while Sawyer murdered the wrong man. Even if Duckett had been the man Sawyer was looking for, he wasn't directly responsible for the death of Sawyer's mother, Sawyer's father was. Going beyond the differences in their murders, Ana-Lucia was a police officer while Sawyer was a profesionnal con artist. While such professions often get a dashing, roguish portrayal on television, you can be sure that in real life their exploits can be devastating. Sawyer himself can attest to that, and yet he chooses to become one himself. I honestly can't see how anyone can hold Sawyer in a more positive light than Ana-Lucia. As for remorse, Sawyer has never displayed any after leaving that shrimp stand. Ana-Lucia may or may not have depending on how you interpret her response to Sayid's question. I like both characters, but I do admit that seeing her background didn't make her a lot more sympathetic (I felt the same way after seeing Sawyer's background).

Ana said in the episode that she was pregnant when she was shot. It did not say when she found out she was pregnant. I saw no indication that anyone else knew she was pregnant. It's possible she didn't find out she was pregnant until after the shooting.

I was really impressed at how well Sayid handled himself against Eko, who is considerably larger and started in an advantageous position. Eko probably saved Ana's life, but I fault him for not disarming Ana afterwards. She was obviously spinning out of control and he shouldn't have left her there like that, especially armed.

I think if Jack finds one more walking flashback on the island (i.e. Desmond, Ana-Lucia) he'll snap. :biggrin:

Am I the only not completely buying her losing her kid as, if not an justification but at least an explanation, of her actions? I mean, seeing as her losing that kid was partly due to her own incompetence? I'm pretty sure the LAPD have a how-to book on how to interact and apprehend potential criminals, and lowering ones gun is probably not in it.

Also, if you are pregnant, you might not want to do any patrolling.
just a quick reply in Ana's defense ~ as a woman who has been pregnant multiple times, I can tell you for a fact that you don't always know that you are pregnant right away. It is possible that she didn't know at the time she was out on patrol that she was pregnant and only found out after she had been shot. Just observing her protective nature *especially of children* I'm guessing if she knew she was preggers, she wouldn't have put herself in a dangerous position. Just a thought :)

It baffles me to see how Ana-Lucia is widely despised and hated when compared to Sawyer she has been a much better person from what we've seen.I

I've seen nothing to indicate she was a better person. She was an adult who had something bad happen to her - we don't know what she was like before - but it seems like it may not have changed her personality much - or the psychiatrist wouldn't have put her back on duty.

As for Sawyer - he was a child when the conman Sawyer destroyed his family. Technically, his father killed his mother - but from a child's perspective, you will blame someone from outside your family, before blaming your parents. He grew up with that - and yet - we've seen humor & some caring out of him, even BEFORE his flashbacks. He's charming & witty. AL comes across as brash & arrogant.

I've seen nothing to indicate she was a better person. She was a police officer, ergo a civil servant. She gave to the community, while Sawyer only took from it.

Technically, his father killed his mother - but from a child's perspective, you will blame someone from outside your family, before blaming your parents. You're trying to rationalize what he's done, but is that because you agree with what he did or because you like him despite it? He should have set aside his anger and moved on with his life, but he didn't. He chose to cling to it just like he chose a life of crime. He made a choice every day of his life to keep embracing his hatred rather than letting it go. He kept that hatred burning for 25 years. He has kept his hatred for about as long as Ana-Lucia has been alive. Sawyer tricks people out of their money for a living, while Ana-Lucia was a street cop. She made her living by putting her personal safety on the line for society.

He grew up with that - and yet - we've seen humor & some caring out of him, even BEFORE his flashbacks. He's charming & witty. AL comes across as brash & arrogant. How charming he is has nothing to do with how good of a person he is. Numerous villains have been charming and eloquent, but that doesn't make them any better of a person. Just because Ana is less likable doesn't make her a worse person.

There are some telling differences though. Ana-Lucia's pain was less than a year old, while Sawyer's was more than 25 years old. Ana-Lucia murdered the man that caused her to lose her child, while Sawyer murdered the wrong man. Even if Duckett had been the man Sawyer was looking for, he wasn't directly responsible for the death of Sawyer's mother, Sawyer's father was.

Brilliant post. Sawyer spent years (decades?) trying to murder a man who committed a nonviolent crime. And on top of that he ended up murdering a completely innocent man. Much worse than Ana's revenge crime.

BTW, I like both characters.

I'm from a police family and there is no way that I'd make that same choice. It's cops like her that give the rest of us a bad name.

I agree 100%.

She was a police officer, ergo a civil servant. She gave to the community, while Sawyer only took from it.


Going vigilante negates much of what she gave to the community. She tarnished the integrity of the police force, and abandoned the oath of service she swore to, by abusing her position for personal gain.

If this episode was supposed to show justification for her actions, it really failed.
A cop should be held to a higher standard, and killing someone out of revenge is not cool. It shows that she is a mean, wicked, bad, nasty bully who is apparently a spoiled brat and used to getting her own way.

Maybe, if her mom were not the the captain, she wouldn't have even gotten to be a cop. She may have failed the psych exam. Maybe she'd be better at making change at the 7-11. Maybe Nepotism was a factor, and put a person in a place of authority who had no business being there.

Maybe this episode name should have been "All the Best Cops Have Mommy Issues"

Don't like her, and even if she finds a cure for cancer and swims back to Australia carrying it in her little pocket, I won't like her.

And she sure didn't cut Michael any slack even though he lost a child. Her expression of sympathy? "Yeah, they took a lot of things" Like your common sense apparently, Ana Lucifer.

HATE

Ever think that maybe she didn't know she was pregnant until after it was lost?

Or maybe she just found out that day?

Or maybe she just wanted to be able to provide for her baby, not to pull out of work until absolutely necessary?

Being pregnant on the job, even a dangerous job, doesn't necessarily make someone an idiot.

We don't know the exact circumstances, so I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt.

That said, I loved the episode, and I really empathized with Ana-Lucia. If I were on the island, I probably would have reacted like Bernard or Libby, but since I'm just the viewer, I can enjoy the loveable (to me) twisted mess that is Ana-Lucia, and hope that she finds what she can finally be able to find some kind of happiness ("Everyone gets a new life on this island"). We've seen her hit rock bottom (which isn't pretty), and we've seen her take the first step (sparing and being spared by Sayid). Remember, she's a relatively new character. The possibilities are endless. If she's utterly (reasonably) unlikeable at the end of the season, then I'll join you. But, I really don't think that's the case.

She was a police officer, ergo a civil servant. She gave to the community...

With all due respect, you do not know that. Not all cops are good, for all we know A-L joined the force only to exploit it as an outlet for her aggressive nature and bullying needs.

It baffles me to see how Ana-Lucia is widely despised and hated when compared to Sawyer she has been a much better person from what we've seen.

Really? Because I haven't seen any evidence that she is a better person.

Ana-Lucia's pain was less than a year old, while Sawyer's was more than 25 years old.

Pain doesn't have a time limit. In fact, sometimes if hatred is allowed to grow over the years, it can be even more dangerous because the feelings can grow stronger and more potent.

Ana-Lucia murdered the man that caused her to lose her child, while Sawyer murdered the wrong man. Even if Duckett had been the man Sawyer was looking for, he wasn't directly responsible for the death of Sawyer's mother, Sawyer's father was.

If he had been the man Sawyer had been looking for then he was indirectly responsible for the deaths of Sawyer's parents. Just as in my opinion, Ana Lucia is the one who put her baby at risk in the first place. I'm not justifying what Sawyer did by the way, I think he was completely wrong. However, what allows me to sympathize more with Sawyer is that I see more remorse and pain in him for things he does wrong which I don't see in Ana Lucia. Maybe Josh is just better to me when it comes to expressing that on his face than Michelle. Also he doesn't try to become the leader of the group, ordering them around or beating on them when they don't start it first like Ana Lucia does. It's their attitudes on the island that make the end difference for me.

Going beyond the differences in their murders, Ana-Lucia was a police officer while Sawyer was a profesionnal con artist.

That's what makes it even worse with Ana Lucia for me. As a cop she should know better and it's her actions that give cops a bad name.

As for remorse, Sawyer has never displayed any after leaving that shrimp stand. Ana-Lucia may or may not have depending on how you interpret her response to Sayid's question.

I guess it depends on how you view them because I've always seen nothing but remorse on Sawyer's face whereas I didn't see any on Ana Lucia's, not even when she shot Shannon.

Ana said in the episode that she was pregnant when she was shot. It did not say when she found out she was pregnant. I saw no indication that anyone else knew she was pregnant. It's possible she didn't find out she was pregnant until after the shooting.

That's true but if she's sexually active, then she must be smart enough to know it's a possibility. Police work can be dangerous stuff and she knows that every time she goes out on the job that there is the chance that she could be shot. Now I'm definitely not saying that all sexually active police women should go onto desk duty, some of the best women I know work out on the field. However, they know that they take that risk every day they go out there. They make a choice to still go out there despite the risk and so did Ana Lucia.

Yeah, but you also don't know why she was still working....the Danny guy coulda just lost his job and they needed the money...maybe she was just working for a little while and planning to take it easy after that/go to a desk....who knows, but I'm sure the character feels a lot of guilt either way....a mother ALWAYS blames themselves when ANYTHING bad happens....so, there's just yet another negative emotion Ana is dealing with....dang, she's got so much going on, it's just so poignant.

If Sawyer were truly remorseful, he would have turned himself in after shooting the innoncent man rather than hightailing it out of there.
He doesn't seem to have much concern for the innocent man's family. They at least deserve the closure of knowing who shot their loved one and why. I don't think they would sympathize with Sawyer or consider him remorseful.
I mean, I still dig the guy, but... you know.

Yeah, but you also don't know why she was still working....the Danny guy coulda just lost his job and they needed the money...maybe she was just working for a little while and planning to take it easy after that/go to a desk....who knows, but I'm sure the character feels a lot of guilt either way....a mother ALWAYS blames themselves when ANYTHING bad happens....so, there's just yet another negative emotion Ana is dealing with....dang, she's got so much going on, it's just so poignant.

It's not poignant to me, it's boring and pretty pointless. You're pulling up plenty of excuses for her but I didn't see any evidence at all to suggest that she was considering taking up desk duty soon. If we see or hear of that later on so be it but as of now, I see no proof. So good, she should blame herself. You know what though everyone on this island has "negative emotions" to deal with but they don't all act continuously snotty like she does.

She was a police officer, ergo a civil servant. She gave to the community, while Sawyer only took from it.

How do you know she was a 'good' cop? Maybe she was a crooked one. Not all police officers give to the community. WE JUST DON'T KNOW YET.

You're trying to rationalize what he's done, but is that because you agree with what he did or because you like him despite it? He should have set aside his anger and moved on with his life, but he didn't. He chose to cling to it just like he chose a life of crime. He made a choice every day of his life to keep embracing his hatred rather than letting it go. He kept that hatred burning for 25 years. He has kept his hatred for about as long as Ana-Lucia has been alive. Sawyer tricks people out of their money for a living, while Ana-Lucia was a street cop. She made her living by putting her personal safety on the line for society.


He had no family - how was he supposed to learn to let go of that anger? Did he have the advantage of having therapy to work through it? Probably not. What happened to him can scar a person forever. He's a much more sympathetic character and has always been IMO.

How charming he is has nothing to do with how good of a person he is. Numerous villains have been charming and eloquent, but that doesn't make them any better of a person. Just because Ana is less likable doesn't make her a worse person.

I never said he was a good person - but he is much more likable. We do not know yet if she was EVER a good person or likable- she certainly isn't a likable person by any stretch of the imagination from what we've seen so far.

If Sawyer were truly remorseful, he would have turned himself in after shooting the innoncent man rather than hightailing it out of there.
He doesn't seem to have much concern for the innocent man's family. They at least deserve the closure of knowing who shot their loved one and why. I don't think they would sympathize with Sawyer or consider him remorseful.
I mean, I still dig the guy, but... you know.

Being remorseful doesn't necessarily mean turning yourself in. And the innocent man's family doesn't have to be the one to sympathize with him, we do. It can be said that people who knew and loved the guy Ana Lucia shot probably wouldn't sympathize with her either but clearly some here on the board still do.

Being remorseful doesn't necessarily mean turning yourself in. And the innocent man's family doesn't have to be the one to sympathize with him, we do. It can be said that people who knew and loved the guy Ana Lucia shot probably wouldn't sympathize with her either but clearly some here on the board still do.

The guy Ana killed was running around pumping bullets into people. The guy Sawyer murdered was running a food stand. I think there's a big difference.

I think Sawyer feels bad about killing an innocent guy, but not bad enough to sit in a prison cell for it.

The guy Ana killed was running around pumping bullets into people. .

That's a bit of a stretch. The only person we know he shot was AL.

That's a bit of a stretch. The only person we know he shot was AL.

Admittedly, I don't know too many folks who would shoot a cop point blank rather than risk an arrest. But I think it's safe to assume that the ones who do are pretty dangerous people.

He had no family - how was he supposed to learn to let go of that anger? Did he have the advantage of having therapy to work through it? Probably not. What happened to him can scar a person forever. He's a much more sympathetic character and has always been IMO.
He had no family, is that an assumption or show canon? Sawyer was orphaned at an age where he would probably have either been placed with a foster family or perhaps with a family member such as an aunt/uncle/grandparent or relative etc.

how was he supposed to learn to let go of that anger? Well if he can't let go after about 25 years or so he is a slow learner. Ana had far less time to let go of her anger. Does the presence of a therapist really mean she could heal in a year or so? and the absence of one mean, we can forgive Sawyer for continuing on his destructive course for 25 +/- years?

Did he have the advantage of having therapy to work through it? – Probably he did if the social welfare system got involved, which they tend to do in cases involving children.

What happened to him can scar a person forever. That’s true for both Sawyer and Ana. Sawyer as a con man puts a better false face forward to others than Ana does. So do some of us cut him more slack because he is a loveable rogue instead of a blunt person like Ana?

I like both characters without approving of the past actions of either. But I find Ana more sympathetic based on the fact that the events damaging her psyche are far more recent than those harming Sawyer. He has continued to harm others for far too many years. Sawyer continues to represent himself as being out for Sawyer first, Ana at least makes an effort to help others even if her attempts go awry. The island can be a fresh start for either or both of them; that is what I am watching for. A development & improvement of their characters, not a rehash of their past misdeeds.

Sawyer continues to represent himself as being out for Sawyer first, Ana at least makes an effort to help others even if her attempts go awry. The island can be a fresh start for either or both of them; that is what I am watching for.

I wouldn't necessarily believe Ana has tried to help anyone except maybe Bernard and the kids. I think she was just taking care of Ana, and if it helped others, then so be it. But at the end of the day, Ana is looking out for Ana.

Admittedly, I don't know too many folks who would shoot a cop point blank rather than risk an arrest. But I think it's safe to assume that the ones who do are pretty dangerous people.

Actually that's not true. A lot of the people who end up shooting cops are the ones who are inexperienced and majorly spooked which causes them to use less judgement.

how was he supposed to learn to let go of that anger? Well if he can't let go after about 25 years or so he is a slow learner. Ana had far less time to let go of her anger. Does the presence of a therapist really mean she could heal in a year or so? and the absence of one mean, we can forgive Sawyer for continuing on his destructive course for 25 +/- years?

I honestly don't know what time has to do with anything. Hate festering over the years can be just as lethal as recent hate.

Did he have the advantage of having therapy to work through it? – Probably he did if the social welfare system got involved, which they tend to do in cases involving children.

(A) It would depend on what social welfare system he went through because some are just that, a "system". They throw the kids in it without a care to their feelings. (B) Therapy doesn't guarantee help. If Sawyer as a child didn't cooperate or pretended to be helped so that they'd drop it, then it solved nothing for him.

What happened to him can scar a person forever. That’s true for both Sawyer and Ana. Sawyer as a con man puts a better false face forward to others than Ana does. So do some of us cut him more slack because he is a loveable rogue instead of a blunt person like Ana?

The impression I've gotten from Sawyer doesn't make me think he's putting a better face forward because he's a con man and therefore more able to "fool" people if that's what you're saying. Being a con man doesn't make Sawyer a bad person in his flashback life just as being a cop doesn't make Ana Lucia a good one.

I'd also like to add here because the thread I read it in doesn't seem to be a debate thread and more just a pro-Ana thread. A number of times I've seen the comment that people don't like her because she doesn't fit the preconceptions of a female protagonist. It has NOTHING to do with her being a woman. I'd feel the same if she were a man. I don't like people who are bossy, impulsive in such a way that people are continuously hurt by it, irresponsible, demanding, abusive, and rude (and then to top it off I haven't seen the remorse in any of her wrong choices that some others seem to have seen). Especially not when those people decide to play leader because it's those leaders who remind me of dictators and who think their way is always the right way despite how others in the group may feel. I'm also personally more sensitive when it comes to how police officers are portrayed and she is not a good one in any sense. I've seen a few comments making excuses for her killing Shannon because she was confused and there were voices around. Well for me, that was just one more instance in my opinion of her being a bad cop. Whenever a police officer goes out on a bust, there are constantly things going on around them. They are trained to work with that which just leads me to see her as trigger happy.

Actually that's not true. A lot of the people who end up shooting cops are the ones who are inexperienced and majorly spooked which causes them to use less judgement.

I still think that people who shoot cops are more dangerous than people that cook shrimp. But I'm losing interest here...so cheers!




I like Ana. :) And I vote.

Hey I think cop killers (or attempted killers) are dangerous too. But you seemed to be making your point that it was likely this guy was the kind of criminal that was going around shooting lots of people and I merely said that it doesn't often work like that.

Being a con man doesn't make Sawyer a bad person in his flashback life just as being a cop doesn't make Ana Lucia a good one. Well my intended point was more towards the mannerisms they have in dealing with others - Blunt and to the point vs smooth and polished, when he wants to be. I believe that makes a major difference in how we interpret their actions and character. I agree cop does not always = good, but the odds of her having been good at one time should go up if she is the kind of person who chose a career where she 'serves and protects' the public. You did lose me with, "Being a con man doesn't make Sawyer a bad person in his flashback life.". Using good in the moral sense instead of the skilled at their job sense, how many ‘good’ con men do you know? I somehow equate being a con man with cheating others, which in my view makes him at least a little bit bad in his prior life. To me the major test will be how they treat others over the long term on the island, not who they used to be pre crash.

I agree cop does not always = good, but the odds of her having been good at one time should go up if she is the kind of person who chose a career where she 'serves and protects' the public.

Here are two reasons that they still haven't sold me on this. (1) For some of us, coming from a police family causes us to do the same. That's part of my impression from Ana Lucia...that mom's job made her want to do the same. (2) There are some who go into it because they like or feel they need that sense of power. That's another thing I get from Ana Lucia just because of her personality.

You did lose me with, "Being a con man doesn't make Sawyer a bad person in his flashback life.". Using good in the moral sense instead of the skilled at their job sense, how many ‘good’ con men do you know? I somehow equate being a con man with cheating others, which in my view makes him at least a little bit bad in his prior life.

Yeah I wasn't exactly sure how to say my point in this. Basically the reason I made the statement was because it seems a lot of people make the comment that because Sawyer is a con man (i.e. "one of the bad guys"), then he is more at fault for his choice than Ana Lucia was because she was a cop (i.e. "one of the good guys"). Asking how many "good" con men do I know is a loaded question because it's more like "good" in what sense of the word. I've known essentially good men who led criminal lives because they felt they had no choice and then they try to make amends because they still feel guilty about it all. I do think Sawyer was a "little bit bad" as you say as was nearly everyone on this island. But the reason I'm harder on Ana Lucia I suppose is as I've said a couple of times, I haven't seen any remorse in her for her wrong actions and I find it very difficult to find sympathy for any police officer who murders in cold blood. It's a personal reaction for me based on my own experiences.

To me the major test will be how they treat others over the long term on the island, not who they used to be pre crash.

This is exactly it for me though. Because while I'm still not sure I'd have sympathy for any murdering cop, it makes it even more difficult for me to even try when she hasnt' treated people well on the island either.

Going vigilante negates much of what she gave to the community. If she gave anything to the community, it's still more than Sawyer has.

Maybe, if her mom were not the the captain, she wouldn't have even gotten to be a cop. She may have failed the psych exam. Maybe she'd be better at making change at the 7-11. Maybe. Maybe not. Wild speculation could be done either way. We have no evidence that she got where she was due to any special treatment.

With all due respect, you do not know that. Not all cops are good, for all we know A-L joined the force only to exploit it as an outlet for her aggressive nature and bullying needs. Yes I do. She took four bullets in the line of duty from an armed robber. She wasn't shot in a shady deal -- she was shot trying to apprehend a criminal. Nothing we've been shown gives any indication that she was anything else. Bad cops don't get shot trying to stop a crime and as far as we've been told that's what happened to her. You can speculate all you like, but it's just that.

Really? Because I haven't seen any evidence that she is a better person. Then you should look again with an impartial eye.

Pain doesn't have a time limit. In fact, sometimes if hatred is allowed to grow over the years, it can be even more dangerous because the feelings can grow stronger and more potent. True, but that's no one's fault but Sawyer. No one could stop that hatred but him. No one could nurture it but him. He made a choice every day to keep searching for that man. He made a choice to go back to that shrimp stand and shoot Duckett. He had 25+ years to avoid that confrontation and let the hatred go. He didn't. If his hatred grew it's because he wasn't strong enough to move past it. I see that as a sign of weakness on his part, much as it is hers, but his weakness is that much greater.

If he had been the man Sawyer had been looking for then he was indirectly responsible for the deaths of Sawyer's parents. Sawyer's mother was equally, if not more responsible for what happened than the con artist. Regardless, Duckett was not that man. Sawyer shot him and he was innocent. Cold blooded murder as a result of misdirected revenge.

Just as in my opinion, Ana Lucia is the one who put her baby at risk in the first place. How far along was she? When did she find out? How long had she known? You can't answer any of these questions with any certainty. We know she was pregnant and that she lost her child as the direct result of Jason Elder's actions. You are trying to place blame on her, but you don't know to what degree she was responsible.

However, what allows me to sympathize more with Sawyer is that I see more remorse and pain in him for things he does wrong which I don't see in Ana Lucia. What remorse is that? A habitual life of crime? Becoming the man he himself despises? All I see is a reoccuring weakness of character. A stronger person would have made something of their life.

Maybe Josh is just better to me when it comes to expressing that on his face than Michelle. Also he doesn't try to become the leader of the group, ordering them around or beating on them when they don't start it first like Ana Lucia does. It's their attitudes on the island that make the end difference for me. I'm not debating which one is more of a pain in the neck, I'm debating which one is a better person. For all her bad attitude, Ana-Lucia was very upset about having shot the wrong person. Sawyer just seemed to shrug it off and go back to his bad boy ways.

As a cop she should know better and it's her actions that give cops a bad name. She's no more deserving of damnation than Sawyer. Sawyer knew better too, and he had a whole lot more time to think about what he would do when (if) the day came. Unlike Ana, Sawyer most likely never would have (hasn't and still might not) run into the man that he blames for ruining his life if he hadn't gone out of his way to find him. They've both killed someone in cold blood, but when you compare what we know of the rest of their lives I have to conclude Ana's the more productive member of society.

I guess it depends on how you view them because I've always seen nothing but remorse on Sawyer's face whereas I didn't see any on Ana Lucia's, not even when she shot Shannon. What you see as Sawyer's remorse I see as disbelief or self-pity depending on the scenes. When he reads that letter he's feeding his own feelings of suffering. He's reminding himself of just how bad his life was and whose fault it was (in his mind).

That's true but if she's sexually active, then she must be smart enough to know it's a possibility. Police work can be dangerous stuff and she knows that every time she goes out on the job that there is the chance that she could be shot. And every time she does so she's giving to the community. She took great personal risk every time she went to work, which is a lot more than Sawyer has done.

She was pregnant. Jason Elder killed her unborn child. The rest is speculation. She might have known, or she might not.

How do you know she was a 'good' cop? Maybe she was a crooked one. Not all police officers give to the community. WE JUST DON'T KNOW YET. She took a bullet from a criminal. Bad cops don't do that for other people's property. You don't stand there and face off against a potentially dangerous suspect without conviction in what you're doing.

He had no family - how was he supposed to learn to let go of that anger? Did he have the advantage of having therapy to work through it? Probably not. What happened to him can scar a person forever. He's a much more sympathetic character and has always been IMO. We are not shown what became of Sawyer after his parents death. He was raised by someone, whether it was his extended family or a foster family. He had a chance to make something of his life, he made his choices. Sawyer isn't sympathetic. He moved past that a long time ago. When he chose to set foot on the same path that the original Sawyer took he became unsympathetic. From victim to victimizer, he's now the one ruining others lives.

I never said he was a good person - but he is much more likable. I said she was a better person than Sawyer. She can be a bad person and still be a better person than Sawyer. It's a relative comparrison, not absolute. Likability has nothing to do with it.

That's a bit of a stretch. The only person we know he shot was AL. That's still one person more than we know of Duckett harming.

I honestly don't know what time has to do with anything. Sawyer had plenty of time to deal with it his hate, but he chose not to. That is a reflection of his character. Ana has had a year or less to deal with hers, so some feel that she is due a bit of slack since her pain is so recent. Old scars might still ache but they don't hurt like the wound does when it is still healing.

(B) Therapy doesn't guarantee help. If Sawyer as a child didn't cooperate or pretended to be helped so that they'd drop it, then it solved nothing for him. The same applies to Ana. She pretended to be helped but it solved nothing.

Being a con man doesn't make Sawyer a bad person in his flashback life just as being a cop doesn't make Ana Lucia a good one. Yes it does. Being a habitual law breaker and thief does make him a bad person. What morals do you live by? What sense of ethics? Making a living at the expense of others does make you a bad person!

I don't like people who are bossy, impulsive in such a way that people are continuously hurt by it, irresponsible, demanding, abusive, and rude (and then to top it off I haven't seen the remorse in any of her wrong choices that some others seem to have seen). Especially not when those people decide to play leader because it's those leaders who remind me of dictators and who think their way is always the right way despite how others in the group may feel. I wholeheartedly agree. I hate overbearing people in real life myself. Were I to meet Ana-Lucia I wouldn't be able to stand her. Nor would I like Sawyer either, even if he is from Knoxville. I can like the character without liking the person. I like Annakin Skywalker/Darth Vader too, but don't for a moment claim that he is a victim of anything but his own choices.

Whenever a police officer goes out on a bust, there are constantly things going on around them. They are trained to work with that which just leads me to see her as trigger happy. She is certainly trigger happy now, but it would seem she wasn't before she herself was shot. Were that the case she would have shot Jason Elder first and not become a victim herself. She could have been a good cop before and be too emotionally scarred to be one now. IMO anyway. It would seem her fear of being shot again has instilled her with an overinflated sense of danger. It compels her to strike first to protect herself and those she cares for. But that's just a layman's guess. :)

Here are two reasons that they still haven't sold me on this. (1) For some of us, coming from a police family causes us to do the same. That's part of my impression from Ana Lucia...that mom's job made her want to do the same. (2) There are some who go into it because they like or feel they need that sense of power. That's another thing I get from Ana Lucia just because of her personality.

1. Family tradition just like being born into a Mafia family or into a family of Doctors as Jack was. Yes that influences your career choice, but it doesn’t mean you made a choice at odds with your abilities or ethics.
2. So? A person who hates to exercise power or hold power might not make a good cop either. Try to picture someone like Hurley as a cop or as a leader during a dangerous situation. The people I know who went into law enforcement tended to be a little more assertive (or aggressive if you prefer) than average. Personality traits like that are neither good nor bad, they do suit people to different tasks & lives.

1. Family tradition just like being born into a Mafia family or into a family of Doctors as Jack was. Yes that influences your career choice, but it doesn’t mean you made a choice at odds with your abilities or ethics.

Right but I haven't seen her ethics OR abilities matching those of a good cop.

2. So? A person who hates to exercise power or hold power might not make a good cop either.

Very true. But my problem with Ana Lucia in this regard is she does so in a bullying manner and tends not to consider how other people in the group feel about this. That's not the way a good cop handles their power IMO.

He had 25+ years to avoid that confrontation and let the hatred go. He didn't. If his hatred grew it's because he wasn't strong enough to move past it. I see that as a sign of weakness on his part, much as it is hers, but his weakness is that much greater.

I see it as weakness on his part as well. The majority of the people on this island have been weak in certain decisions including Sawyer and Ana Lucia. I don't see how it makes his weakness any greater than other people's though. Especially because we really have no idea what went on in those 25+ years to still nurture this kind of bitterness he had.

Sawyer's mother was equally, if not more responsible for what happened than the con artist. Regardless, Duckett was not that man. Sawyer shot him and he was innocent. Cold blooded murder as a result of misdirected revenge.

Sure Sawyer's mom is. I'd even put Ana Lucia's mom for being a little responsible for what happened to Jason because she was blind to Ana Lucia saying it wasn't him and she allowed Ana to still go out there. These survivors seem to be good at cold blooded murder...

How far along was she? When did she find out? How long had she known? You can't answer any of these questions with any certainty. We know she was pregnant and that she lost her child as the direct result of Jason Elder's actions. You are trying to place blame on her, but you don't know to what degree she was responsible.

Yeah because she is to blame. Obviously not completely because Jason was the one to pull the trigger. But she's to blame for putting herself in that situation to begin with (not only because a cop is bound to be in that circumstance but also by choosing to make a bad, impulsive decision in that situation). All those questions you give, don't mean a thing. Unless she's an idiot who doesn't know how babies are made, she must be aware that having sex puts her in the possibility range of getting pregnant. All sexually active female police officers know that they take the chance that not only are they putting themselves at risk on the job (just as a male police officer is) but also the possibility that they could have a baby coming along that is also at risk.

What remorse is that? A habitual life of crime? Becoming the man he himself despises? All I see is a reoccuring weakness of character. A stronger person would have made something of their life.

Yeah, I saw remorse for becoming the man he despises. Having remorse doesn't mean I don't think his choices are a weakness, it just means that I think he feels remorse for that weakness. By your definition then none of these characters are very strong people because they've all made choices that could be defined as a weakness in their character.

I'm not debating which one is more of a pain in the neck, I'm debating which one is a better person. For all her bad attitude, Ana-Lucia was very upset about having shot the wrong person. Sawyer just seemed to shrug it off and go back to his bad boy ways.

I guess it's all a matter of interpretation. I didn't see Ana Lucia upset at all. I saw her as nervous that she's shot the wrong person and that people would revolt against her but not particularly affected by the actual killing. Whereas I'd also disagree that Sawyer just shrugs it off because I saw him as being very affected emotionally. But I'm sure it's how we personally read the characters in this case.

She's no more deserving of damnation than Sawyer. Sawyer knew better too, and he had a whole lot more time to think about what he would do when (if) the day came. Unlike Ana, Sawyer most likely never would have (hasn't and still might not) run into the man that he blames for ruining his life if he hadn't gone out of his way to find him. They've both killed someone in cold blood, but when you compare what we know of the rest of their lives I have to conclude Ana's the more productive member of society.

I don't think she deserves damnation more than Sawyer but then again i don't think that for anyone on this island. But at the same time, I don't think Sawyer deserves more either. I don't know what this big thing about time has to do with anything. Just because he's had more time to dwell on it doesn't mean he's more at fault for his actions or something. We can't really compare much of what we know of the rest of their lives at this point because I haven't seen evidence that Ana was a good cop yet so I don't know if she was all that productive. If we're comparing the two, then sure her having a responsible job makes her more productive but it doesn't necessarily make her a better person IMO.

What you see as Sawyer's remorse I see as disbelief or self-pity depending on the scenes. When he reads that letter he's feeding his own feelings of suffering. He's reminding himself of just how bad his life was and whose fault it was (in his mind).

That's exactly why we're disagreeing becuase I still see it as remorse. However, I see Ana Lucia as you see him...with feelings of disbelief and self pity towards herself.

She was pregnant. Jason Elder killed her unborn child. The rest is speculation. She might have known, or she might not.

Well as I said above, whether she knew for sure or not doesn't mean all that much to me since I'm thinking she's intelligent enough to know that there is always that possibility that she could be pregnant. Because of course the rest is speculation, practically this whole show is speculation. This board would be fairly pointless without it. However, there is degree of speculation. If I wanted to get into some real speculation, I'd start asking questions about whether Jason still would've shot her had he known for sure she was pregnant or what would've happened had she allowed him to be tried.

We are not shown what became of Sawyer after his parents death. He was raised by someone, whether it was his extended family or a foster family. He had a chance to make something of his life, he made his choices.

This is something difficult to determine based on speculation. Because we don't know what happened to him after his parents' died, we don't know what kind of life he was thrown into. It could've been the kind of environment that teaches kids bad values and would be the perfect place to feed into his hatred of who he saw as the guilty party. It may've been a good environment that tried to break into his shell that he created when his parents died but failed. We have no idea.

Old scars might still ache but they don't hurt like the wound does when it is still healing.

Again, you're speaking of time as if having enough of it is always enough. I don't see why Sawyer's pain should be any less hard on him than Ana's just because less time has gone by. As I've said before, time can feed into hate just as easily as it can diminish it. Old wounds can be just as painful if not more.

Yes it does. Being a habitual law breaker and thief does make him a bad person. What morals do you live by? What sense of ethics? Making a living at the expense of others does make you a bad person!

Maybe my answer was badly worded. I was speaking of "good vs. bad" less in the action taking sense and more in the emotional (personality) sense. Say for example, a person breaks the law and I have to arrest them. They made a bad choice and they will be punished for it. But say I'm talking to this person and they are really kind and I learn that they got into this lifestyle because they had a family to support and they didn't know how else to do it or they were raised in a bad environment and didn't see any other way out. Does that make their actions any less bad, illegal, or hurtful to other people? No, they're still going to stay under arrest and be tried in court. But I don't personally label them a "bad person". On that same note, there are people who do good deeds, work for charity, follow the law, etc but if they continue to treat other people badly, I don't necessarily see them as good people. Not completely bad people but certainly not any better than other people who do bad things. I don't particularly see any of these characters as better people than each other which is why I have a hard time saying Ana Lucia is better than Sawyer because despite leading a more legal life than he did (except of course lying to the police and then murdering a man), her personality still doesn't allow me to think of her as that good either.

I can like the character without liking the person. I like Annakin Skywalker/Darth Vader too, but don't for a moment claim that he is a victim of anything but his own choices.

For me, if I don't like the person then I don't like the character. Now liking a character despite their bad choices is different but there still has to be something about that person that I like. But if they make bad choices AND their personality puts me off, then I have an impossible time liking either the person or character if that makes sense.

I had to remove some of my stuff and re-reply with the rest of my comments in this message due to length.

Bad cops don't get shot trying to stop a crime and as far as we've been told that's what happened to her. You can speculate all you like, but it's just that.
>>>>>
She took a bullet from a criminal. Bad cops don't do that for other people's property. You don't stand there and face off against a potentially dangerous suspect without conviction in what you're doing.

Not true. Bad cops aren't necessarily bad all the time. My brother's best friend from the academy was recently found to be dirty because he was skimming drugs off some of the evidence that should've been turned in just to name one of the illegal things he pulled. However, just a year ago he took a knife to the gut when on a bust. Bad cops can be very likeable and fool people easily. We don't know at this time whether Ana Lucia was a good cop or a bad one though we do know that she made bad choices even on the job. Although I'm willing to bet if/when we get another flashback episode of hers, we'll probably see her as this excellent, honorary cop because the writers are aware that many people still didn't fall for the old cliche of the person turning bad because they lost their baby so this will be a different way for them to try and get the audience to like her. I'd actually probably be more impressed if they didn't go that route because it's too predictable and blatant on the audience IMO.

She is certainly trigger happy now, but it would seem she wasn't before she herself was shot. Were that the case she would have shot Jason Elder first and not become a victim herself. She could have been a good cop before and be too emotionally scarred to be one now. IMO anyway. It would seem her fear of being shot again has instilled her with an overinflated sense of danger. It compels her to strike first to protect herself and those she cares for. But that's just a layman's guess.

Now I could understand that however, I would also argue that her having not shot Jason first doesn't mean that she doesn't still have that in her. It's true someone who is trigger happy tends to shoot first, ask later more often than not but that's not true in every single case with that person. Also most cops tend to have an overinflated sense of danger just because of what it takes to do this job. However, they are also taught how to even handle that. Some learn better than others it's true but part of the reason I was horrified by Shannon's death is that Ana Lucia exhibited no police training at all. Most importantly she shouldn't have had her finger on the trigger before she got a clear view of her target. If Ana Lucia was indeed so scarred by her experience that she didn't even know how to properly handle a gun, then she should NOT have been the one to hold it.

Nothing really to add except a huge

WORD to everything RaceTheSun said.

If she gave anything to the community, it's still more than Sawyer has.

How do you know that Sawyer never gave anything to the community - maybe he was like RobinHood - stealing from the rich to give to the poor - Now, I don't know -but that is the point - WE DO NOT KNOW THAT SAWYER NEVER GAVE ANYTHING BACK TO THE COMMUNITY & WE DO NOT KNOW THAT ANA EVER GAVE ANYTHING BACK.

Maybe. Maybe not. Wild speculation could be done either way. We have no evidence that she got where she was due to any special treatment.

Bad cops don't get shot trying to stop a crime and as far as we've been told that's what happened to her.

Bad cops don't just let criminals go -they do their job for the most part and can still be a bad cop.

True, but that's no one's fault but Sawyer. No one could stop that hatred but him. No one could nurture it but him. He made a choice every day to keep searching for that man. He made a choice to go back to that shrimp stand and shoot Duckett. He had 25+ years to avoid that confrontation and let the hatred go. He didn't. If his hatred grew it's because he wasn't strong enough to move past it. I see that as a sign of weakness on his part, much as it is hers, but his weakness is that much greater.

And how was he supposed to let go of that hatred with no one to teach him how?

Sawyer's mother was equally, if not more responsible for what happened than the con artist.

But a child loves their parents unconditionally & as such, they need to find someone else to blame. It's the same reason kids blame themselves for their parents' divorce- it has to be someone's fault other than mom & dad.

A stronger person would have made something of their life.

Given the right opportunities - he may have had none of those opportunities.

I'm not debating which one is more of a pain in the neck, I'm debating which one is a better person. For all her bad attitude, Ana-Lucia was very upset about having shot the wrong person. Sawyer just seemed to shrug it off and go back to his bad boy ways.

She was not upset in the least about shooting Shannon -the only thing she was concerned about was losing control of the group & that Sayid was going to kill her.

Sawyer knew better too,


How do you know?

She took a bullet from a criminal. Bad cops don't do that for other people's property. You don't stand there and face off against a potentially dangerous suspect without conviction in what you're doing.

Even bad cops do their jobs.

We are not shown what became of Sawyer after his parents death. He was raised by someone, whether it was his extended family or a foster family. He had a chance to make something of his life, he made his choices. Sawyer isn't sympathetic. He moved past that a long time ago. When he chose to set foot on the same path that the original Sawyer took he became unsympathetic. From victim to victimizer, he's now the one ruining others lives.

Do you have ANY idea what the foster care system is like in most places? If he ended up in a bad foster care system, he had no chance or any good choices. And maybe he set foot on the same path to try & understand what happened when he was a child. We see that he does come to a realization when he walks away from that con because of the child.

That's still one person more than we know of Duckett harming.

But Sawyer thought that Duckett was the real Sawyer - AND he was obviously into some sort of criminal behavior, because he knew why Sawyer had been sent (not for the reason that Sawyer thought). And do we know that the person AL killed was actually the person who shot her? It could have been a brother or someone who looked a lot like him.

Sawyer had plenty of time to deal with it his hate, but he chose not to. That is a reflection of his character. Ana has had a year or less to deal with hers, so some feel that she is due a bit of slack since her pain is so recent. Old scars might still ache but they don't hurt like the wound does when it is still healing.

Again - was Sawyer ever given the tools to deal with it? Probably not given the timeframe of when it occurred. Kids were considered resilient & it was thought they would just get over things. Ana had therapy and if she was such an upholder of the law, she would have let the law take care of the man.

I don't like AL at all. I do feel sorry for her because she lost her baby, but hey, that's a risk you take being a cop, and a patrol cop at that especially in LA (am I right about that?). She had an opportunity to put that guy away, and she shot him in cold blood anyways. Now how many people has she managed to kill in 48 days? Shannon, Goodwin, Nathan if she had the chance, Sawyer if they would have let her, and then she threatened Libby, Bernard, Michael, Jin...................Somehow I am NOT overwhelmed with her humanity.

Agreed. Hopefully, we'll see some humanity develop in coming episodes. Certainly, there are other characters that are more sympathetic, but the writers have to give us a good mix, and she's definitely the least sympathetic of all that we've seen to date.
It would've been a bit interesting if Ethan had lived and been held captive long enough to learn more about what made him tick. On the other hand, the producers wouldn't have gotten another season or two of money out of the story if they had allowed that.

Each of the characters have their flaws. I'm actually a bit concerned right now about Charlie even though he's not my favorite character. It's just that he beat the habit, and now it appears that he might be taking it up again. I hope I'm wrong and that he's just re-examining his addictions from the past. If so, maybe he'll succumb, and then again, he might just beat it for good.

I'm really anxious to see what we learn with Eko and John teaming up.

I also figure they can't allow the Walt issue to stay in limbo for very long. They'll have to attempt to find and recover Walt.

i have to say,i couldn't read all the posts here..but ppl have raised many good issues here i think..In my opinion,Ana is a very interesting and a real character..i think there are some reasons that make her actions understandable,but have to admit that in some cases,i was a bit bothered by the way she acted,like when she started pointing the gun at everyone around her,including the other tailies who have been through the same bad experiences as her on the island,after what happened to Shannon.But in general,i think she can be understood for not being able to trust anyone..
In my opinion,she regrets the day she let that 'kid' who claimed to be a student to reach for his gun and shoot her which resulted in her losing her baby..She made a snap judgment and it cost her her baby and she regrets it..As for her shooting the 'kid',i'm not sure if we should be the judge of that,i mean this is the kind of experince that ppl can only understand if it personally happened to them,and God forbid,and the reactions ppl give to this kind situation,the way they deal with it depends on their personalities which cannot be known until it happens..I know that it's legally wrong,but personally i can't say that she definitely shouldn't have done that,that what she did was wrong..We all know that there is no one right in this world,there are many colors,except for just black and white..So her not trusting anyone could just be b/c she once did and id ended up hurting her in the most harsh way..
i hope i'm not going off-topic here but,as for Sayid being tied to a tree,i think she did it b/c she just knew what he was capable of doing,simply b/c she did the same herself to the guy who shot her..So she knew exactly what he would do and that's why later i think she gave him the gun and a chance to shoot her..She simply knows what it's like to lose someone you love and how far would you go when it happens..
I don't know,i like her character and even though i also sometimes feel a bit irritated by some of her actions,i'm thinking that's just fair,b/c none of the other survivors do everything right,b/c no one can,they're all humans after all..And ppl make mistakes and they pay the consequences..So she did..But i'm also not saying that all her actions are reasonable,i only think that we don't know much about her yet,and like the other her personality..

Yeah because she is to blame. Obviously not completely because Jason was the one to pull the trigger. So the people that died in the World Trade Center were to blame for their own deaths? They put themselves in that situation. Do you blame drunken women that are sexually assaulted too? Are they to blame? By that logic, Shannon is to blame for her own death -- so cut Ana some slack.

All sexually active female police officers know that they take the chance that not only are they putting themselves at risk on the job (just as a male police officer is) but also the possibility that they could have a baby coming along that is also at risk.
That's so disgustingly chauvanistic that I can't come up with a coherent reply that wouldn't come across as exceedingly bitter.

I didn't see Ana Lucia upset at all. I saw her as nervous that she's shot the wrong person and that people would revolt against her but not particularly affected by the actual killing. That being the case then why did she go and sit with Shannon's body after everyone else left? That serves no purpose if all she's worried about is herself.


Whereas I'd also disagree that Sawyer just shrugs it off because I saw him as being very affected emotionally. How? What has changed in him? What sign has he given, what act has he taken to show he feels bad?

I don't know what this big thing about time has to do with anything. Time heals wounds, nothing else does. The only way for Sawyer to still be carrying that grudge is because he wants to.


If we're comparing the two, then sure her having a responsible job makes her more productive but it doesn't necessarily make her a better person IMO. Then what would? I really don't think it would take much to make her a better person that Sawyer.

That's exactly why we're disagreeing becuase I still see it as remorse. When he reads that letter he's not regretting what he has done, he's regretting it was the wrong person. The letter is not directly connected to Duckett, it's directly connected to the man Sawyer wants to kill.

As I've said before, time can feed into hate just as easily as it can diminish it. Old wounds can be just as painful if not more. Only if you choose to make them so. The only way he carries that grudge to this day is if he chooses to. It's his choice every day to go on hating and he makes it everyday.

But I don't personally label them a "bad person". On that same note, there are people who do good deeds, work for charity, follow the law, etc but if they continue to treat other people badly, I don't necessarily see them as good people. Sorry, I just don't see Sawyer as one of those people. He's not a good man that stumbled. He's made a living stealing from others. That is greed of the worst kind. He knows what harm can come from what he does but he does it anyway. Again he has a choice and takes the bad one.

I don't particularly see any of these characters as better people than each other I have no trouble saying that Jack, Hurley and Claire are all better people than Sawyer. Given what we've seen I would also include Michael, Jin, Boone, and Sun.

For me, if I don't like the person then I don't like the character. There are several characters on the show that I like but wouldn't like as people. Liking them as characters means that I like their backgrounds and what they bring to the story. I like Locke as a character but I don't trust him one bit.

Not true. Bad cops aren't necessarily bad all the time. My brother's best friend from the academy was recently found to be dirty because he was skimming drugs off some of the evidence that should've been turned in just to name one of the illegal things he pulled. However, just a year ago he took a knife to the gut when on a bust. Sorry, I don't find that compelling. He has to be in on the bust to get the evidence to skim the drugs.

I'd actually probably be more impressed if they didn't go that route because it's too predictable and blatant on the audience IMO. I'd be more impressed if they didn't give in to popular pressure and kept Sawyer the SOB that we've been shown he is. But they won't do that. Countless housewives would flood them with objections. :biggrin:

If Ana Lucia was indeed so scarred by her experience that she didn't even know how to properly handle a gun, then she should NOT have been the one to hold it. There was no one there to make that decision except Ana herself, and obviously she's not capable of making that decision.

WE DO NOT KNOW THAT SAWYER NEVER GAVE ANYTHING BACK TO THE COMMUNITY & WE DO NOT KNOW THAT ANA EVER GAVE ANYTHING BACK. Sure we do. She was a police officer. That is a civil service job and automatically gives back to the community. Being a teacher means you give back to the community. Being a thief does not. All we can do is look at what we're shown and draw conclusions. Everytime we're been shown Sawyer's flashbacks he's always self-serving. If we draw the wrong conclusion it's because the writers have mislead us.

And how was he supposed to let go of that hatred with no one to teach him how? No teaching necesary. It happens naturally over time, if you let it. He didn't, he chose to embrace that hatred instead.

Given the right opportunities - he may have had none of those opportunities. Or he may have had all of them. Regardless, ultimately no one can make him forgive. He chooses not to.

She was not upset in the least about shooting Shannon -the only thing she was concerned about was losing control of the group & that Sayid was going to kill her. Then why did she go and sit at Shannon's corpse? By that point she had already lost control of the group and she could kill Sayid at any time.

How do you know? Because he has no diminised capacity. He is a mentally healthy adult raised in civilized society.

Even bad cops do their jobs. No, that's what makes them bad cops. Race the Sun said he knew a bad cop that skimmed drugs. That's not doing his job. Not doing their job is what makes them bad cops.

We see that he does come to a realization when he walks away from that con because of the child. We see one event. We see him drop that one con, but they do not tell us he left his life of crime entirely.

But Sawyer thought that Duckett was the real Sawyer Irrelevent.

AND he was obviously into some sort of criminal behavior, because he knew why Sawyer had been sent (not for the reason that Sawyer thought). Duckett owed Hibbs money. We don't know why, though Sawyer assumes he borrowed money from him. That's not necessarily illegal.

And do we know that the person AL killed was actually the person who shot her? If it's not him, then the writers are misleading us. This goes back to the topic of "what do we trust if we can't trust what we're shown?"

It could have been a brother or someone who looked a lot like him. It could have been a body snatcher...:rolleyes:

Again - was Sawyer ever given the tools to deal with it? Yes, time.

So the people that died in the World Trade Center were to blame for their own deaths? They put themselves in that situation. Do you blame drunken women that are sexually assaulted too? Are they to blame? By that logic, Shannon is to blame for her own death -- so cut Ana some slack.

I personally feel that there are levels to blame. You have to take some level of responsibility for every choice that you make in life. For instance, there is a big difference between your World Trade Center example and Ana Lucia's. Ana Lucia knows that there is a danger that she will be shot every time she goes out on the job. It's a risk that she is aware of. Whereas the people at the World Trade Center were not aware that there was this risk. It's not exactly something that they are in danger of every day they go to work. I never said Shannon was completely without blame either. Like I said, everyone plays a part in something that happens involving them. Maybe the problem is blame is too severe a word for you. So I'll lower it to simply say she had some responsibility in what happened.

That's so disgustingly chauvanistic that I can't come up with a coherent reply that wouldn't come across as exceedingly bitter.

It's not chauvinistic at all. The definition of being chauvinistic is "prejudiced belief in the superiority of one's own gender". I never once said that women aren't just as good as cops as men or that they don't have the same right or ability to be out there on the job. In fact, some of the best cops I know are women. You're the one making the choice to see something bad in what I said. Every female officer I know is aware that there is the risk that if she's pregnant or could be pregnant then she could be putting her baby at risk by putting herself into a situation where she may be shot. It's a fact that comes with the occupation. Deal with it.

That being the case then why did she go and sit with Shannon's body after everyone else left? That serves no purpose if all she's worried about is herself.

Well unless we're told otherwise, I just got the impression that she was using the time to think of what her next gameplan was.

How? What has changed in him? What sign has he given, what act has he taken to show he feels bad?

I've seen it in his face, in the way he has eased up on people once they give him a chance, the way he stands back from the others when they don't bother him, the way he tries to change by telling Jack about his father or all the raft stuff that went on. The way he tried to back out of the deal in one of his flashbacks when he saw that he was doing what the real Sawyer did to another family. I could go on but me justifying why I like Sawyer and see him as feeling bad for what he's done obviously isnt' going to change your opinion if you don't want it to. Maybe it's mostly in how I see Josh's portrayal and why Michelle's still hasn't done it for me personally.

Time heals wounds, nothing else does. The only way for Sawyer to still be carrying that grudge is because he wants to.

Not in my opinion. While it's true that he carries a grudge because he wants too (since no one can really force you into feeling a certain way), I don't think that just because he's had some time, that it's what would be enough to heal him. I don't believe that nothing but time heals wounds. I believe it's essential to have loved ones and people who can help nurture and teach you in order for you to get over something. If he didn't have that, all the time in the world won't necessarily help him and again could just serve to reinforce his hate.

Then what would? I really don't think it would take much to make her a better person that Sawyer.

Nothing for me. I don't see her as a better person. I don't see him as a better person. I see them both as messed up people who aren't any better than anyone else. Unless someone has somehow gone through life as a perfect saint, I don't see how they can be judged as being better as someone else. JMO.

When he reads that letter he's not regretting what he has done, he's regretting it was the wrong person. The letter is not directly connected to Duckett, it's directly connected to the man Sawyer wants to kill.

That's in your opinion and obviously I read the scene differently. I saw Sawyer as regretting a whole bunch of things that are connected. While you see him as only regretting that it was the wrong person, I see him as regretting that he killed that person just as he regrets a bunch of the other choices he made along the way. Again another thing that we wont' be able to convince each other otherwise because it's all in our interpretations.

Only if you choose to make them so. The only way he carries that grudge to this day is if he chooses to. It's his choice every day to go on hating and he makes it everyday.

Um, exactly. Everyone makes their own choices. Ana Lucia chose to murder a man. Kate chose to rob that bank or whatever it was. Charlie chose to take drugs. Boone chose to go up in that plane. Sayid chose to torture Sawyer while Jack chose to stand by and let it happen.

Sorry, I just don't see Sawyer as one of those people. He's not a good man that stumbled. He's made a living stealing from others. That is greed of the worst kind. He knows what harm can come from what he does but he does it anyway. Again he has a choice and takes the bad one.

Most of these characters had a choice in things they've done and made bad ones. To me greed of the worst kind is more when people don't care at all when they make these choices and we already know that you and I disagree in that I feel Sawyer does care when he's doing these things. I don't think you and I will be able to see eye to eye on that.

I have no trouble saying that Jack, Hurley and Claire are all better people than Sawyer. Given what we've seen I would also include Michael, Jin, Boone, and Sun.

I think all those people you named are good people but I still have difficulty saying they are "better" people because like I said, I don't like that label.

There are several characters on the show that I like but wouldn't like as people. Liking them as characters means that I like their backgrounds and what they bring to the story. I like Locke as a character but I don't trust him one bit.

I can see that. However, the reason I'm even in this debate is that I neither like Ana Lucia's background nor what she brings to the story. I can't think of one thing I like about her.

Sorry, I don't find that compelling. He has to be in on the bust to get the evidence to skim the drugs.

The time he got knifed had absolutely nothing to do with drugs on that bust. He has arrested many criminals in his six years on the job that have had nothing to do with drugs either. Being a bad cop does NOT mean you are in on every single deal that they bust or that they won't risk their lives at times to help other people. Only in movies will you maybe see a bad cop who is 100% dirty. Most cops out there who have been found to be bad have done some brilliant work and have also put their lives on the line during certain cases.

I'd be more impressed if they didn't give in to popular pressure and kept Sawyer the SOB that we've been shown he is. But they won't do that. Countless housewives would flood them with objections. :biggrin:

True and I find it unfortunate when they do things solely to try and convince the audience to stick around.

There was no one there to make that decision except Ana herself, and obviously she's not capable of making that decision.

Personally I think that Ana Lucia has exhibited presense of mind enough to know that she's not the best person to handle a gun right now. But being the control freak she is, I think she ignored the little voice that told her not to. If only the others had seen it earlier on as well.

Sure we do. She was a police officer. That is a civil service job and automatically gives back to the community Being a teacher means you give back to the community. Being a thief does not.

Well again not necessarily. Did it ever say how long she's been a cop? I can't remember now. If she and her partner have just walked around on their shifts and not really done anything, then just showing up doesn't automatically give anything to the community. Just like, you can be a teacher but if you never really teach the kids anything then you're still not really giving anything back to the community. Though I will agree that being a thief isn't doing that either. I'm just pointing out that jobs that are supposed to be there to give to the community, don't necessarily do so either.

continued from my other post...

No, that's what makes them bad cops. Race the Sun said he knew a bad cop that skimmed drugs. That's not doing his job. Not doing their job is what makes them bad cops.

What I think was meant when she/he said that even bad cops do their jobs isn't that they always do it, but that they sometimes do which is how my brother's friend was and why it's often difficult to weed out the bad cops. Like I mentioned in the other post, not everything he did was bad. He collared a lot of criminals cleanly and legally. Unfortunately for him and for those that trusted him, that wasn't always the case.

We see one event. We see him drop that one con, but they do not tell us he left his life of crime entirely.

True but they don't tell us that he didn't either. All of this is pure speculation which is a lot of what brings us to this board anyway.

If it's not him, then the writers are misleading us. This goes back to the topic of "what do we trust if we can't trust what we're shown?"

Personally I don't fully trust anything that they show us and I think they take great joy out of misleading us.

Yes, time.

Again though if other things in your environment don't aid in your healing over time, it won't matter how long it's been.

With Sawyer we see a lifetime of lapses in morality and judgement following a few life altering events.
With Ana we see several lapses of morality and judgement following a few life altering events.

Based on what I have seen in the show my personal reaction is that:
As much as I enjoy Sawyer as a character, I disagree with some/many of his actions and would not trust him as a friend.
With Ana, I disagree with some of her actions, but I would trust her as a friend.

With Sawyer we see a lifetime of lapses in morality and judgement following a few life altering events.
With Ana we see several lapses of morality and judgement following a few life altering events.

Based on what I have seen in the show my personal reaction is that:
As much as I enjoy Sawyer as a character, I disagree with some/many of his actions and would not trust him as a friend.
With Ana, I disagree with some of her actions, but I would trust her as a friend.

In this case, I'm waiting for my final decision on Ana Lucia. At this point I can't stand her but also true, at this point we haven't seen who she was as a person before this flashback's timing. As for real trust, if I just knew both of them not as close friends but as acquaintances, I probably wouldn't trust either of them. In order to fully trust someone, they have to be my real friends. Someone who I think would be there for me. Right now, I'd actually lean more towards trusting Sawyer because he seems like the kind of person that once he cares for you, he'll stick with you. But with the way Ana Lucia seems both on the island and in her flashbacks, she seems to be too much of a loner to allow anyone to get close enough to be her real friends which is why I couldn't trust her completely.

Time heals wounds, nothing else does.
That is a falacy - without the proper coping mechanism/tools, time does not heal wounds.

Only if you choose to make them so. The only way he carries that grudge to this day is if he chooses to. It's his choice every day to go on hating and he makes it everyday.

It's not a choice if you don't know any different.


Sorry, I don't find that compelling. He has to be in on the bust to get the evidence to skim the drugs.

Not necessarily -if he has access to the evidence room or an accomplice.


Sure we do. She was a police officer. That is a civil service job and automatically gives back to the community.

Not if she was not a good cop to begin with.

No teaching necesary. It happens naturally over time, if you let it. He didn't, he chose to embrace that hatred instead.

Again- a fallacy - letting go of something like that does not happen naturally. It takes counselling of some sort -whether from a therapist, spiritual leader or a wise friend - but it does take some sort of intervention.


Because he has no diminised capacity. He is a mentally healthy adult raised in civilized society.

But you don't know how he was raised. If he was never given any moral teaching, the fact that we live in a civilized society means nothing. A child doesn't automatically know that it is wrong to steal or kill - it has to be taught.

No, that's what makes them bad cops. Race the Sun said he knew a bad cop that skimmed drugs. That's not doing his job. Not doing their job is what makes them bad cops.

So bad cops NEVER arrest criminal?:rolleyes: Bad cops can do their job 99% of the time & still be a cop gone bad because of the other 1% of the time.


Irrelevent.

How is Sawyer thinking that Duckett is the real Sawyer irrelevant? He wouldn't have shot him otherwise.

Duckett owed Hibbs money. We don't know why, though Sawyer assumes he borrowed money from him. That's not necessarily illegal.

It was obviously some sort of loan shark or gambling situation-which is illegal- especially if Hibbs set up Sawyer to kill him.

It was obviously some sort of loan shark or gambling situation-which is illegal- especially if Hibbs set up Sawyer to kill him. That is conjecture. We never learned why Duckett owed Hibbs money.
Loan sharking would have been illegal for Hibbs as the lender, not Duckett as the borrower/victim. Even if Duckett owed Hibbs money based on gambling, there are places and ways where the gambling could have been legal. For all we know Duckett needed the money to set up his shrimp fry business and borrowed from the wrong person.

But it doesn't matter, as the reason for the debt can not and does not excuse the murder, even if Duckett borrowed the money to pay for a hit on his spouse.

But the truth is that some people are just more likeable than others. There are honest respectable decent folks out there that have the personality of shoe leather and people tend not to like them much. In day to day life, charm DOES matter. And Sawyer has more of it than Ana. For instance, if I were sick and injured in a jungle, I wouldn't want either one of them to have my back because they have both proven that they would leave me there to die. Both of them. Sawyer would have left Michael and Ana would have left Sawyer. They so deserve each other actually. I'm actually starting to enjoy hating Ana. Sort of a JR type character could be a lot of fun actually.

With Sawyer we see a lifetime of lapses in morality and judgement following a few life altering events.
With Ana we see several lapses of morality and judgement following a few life altering events.

.

Could that be because the tragic event happened to Sawyer when he was a CHILD & therefore, had more time in which to have "lapses in judgement" ? Ana hasn't been dealing with it as long and was an ADULT when her tragic event occurred - she had therapy - I find her's more reprehensible because she had the tools available to cope with her tragedy.

That is a falacy - without the proper coping mechanism/tools, time does not heal wounds. Nothing heals wounds but time. All counselilng does is speed up the process. People can and have recovered from the worst possible horrors without the benefit of counseling. It's not a necessity.

It's not a choice if you don't know any different. It is a choice. Everything is a choice.

Again- a fallacy - letting go of something like that does not happen naturally. Letting go happens naturally if you let it.

It takes counselling of some sort -whether from a therapist, spiritual leader or a wise friend - but it does take some sort of intervention. You can repeat it as often as you like, but I do not agree. Counseling expedites the process, it does not make it possible as that implies it was not before.

But you don't know how he was raised. They haven't shown us he was raised in a life of immorality. If they wanted us to think that they would show us that.

How is Sawyer thinking that Duckett is the real Sawyer irrelevant? He wouldn't have shot him otherwise. He shot him without any real proof he was the man he was looking for, He could have investigated, but he didn't. Another bad choice.

It was obviously some sort of loan shark or gambling situation-which is illegal- especially if Hibbs set up Sawyer to kill him. Speculation. What you see as obvious and what I see as obvious are not the same.

Nothing heals wounds but time. All counselilng does is speed up the process. People can and have recovered from the worst possible horrors without the benefit of counseling. It's not a necessity.

As I said on the page before this last night a couple of times, you seem to be under the impression that no matter what, as long as you have time on your side, you can be healed but it really does not always work like that. Pain has the ability to increase or decrease with time. It can't be healed magically just because enough time has gone by.

They haven't shown us he was raised in a life of immorality. If they wanted us to think that they would show us that.

Well obviously your first sentence is true but not the second one. We can't determine anything for sure about a character just because they haven't shown it to us yet. That's why all of this stuff about Sawyer, Ana Lucia, Kate, etc is speculation. Because we know there is more information and flash backs to come where we will learn more. If they want us to think that, maybe they will show us that. Nothing is for sure until that time. Maybe you meant that we'll have to wait and see and if so then I agree but that's not how I interpreted your second sentence.