Tonight was the first time we saw Jack actually ask someone to push the button. I never started a thread about it, but back when everyone was complaining about that final scene in Orientation (saying it was contrived), I was thinking of the 'foot in the door' principal. 'Foot in the door' states that once you get a person to say yes to something once, it's much easier to get them to say yes again. That's why car salesmen offer free stuff "if you just take a test drive". Locke needed Jack to push the button in Orientation- now it has clearly paid off. Even if Jack is not a believer in the button, Locke has this little power over him now.

And once you get someone to say yes to something like a button- what else can you get them to say yes to?

i had a bit of a different take on it. i thought Jack was using the button to get John out of his way. bc he knows that John is a believer and therefore it's Jack with the power.

I agree with dm.

I don't think that Jack believes in the button. When Locke was looking to see what was going on, Jack didn't want to be bothered and the beeping was a simple way to get rid of him at that moment. I also found the way he said "John, the button" was kind of patronizing. Sort of the way I would humour my daugther who insists on doing something that I know she will out grow soon enough.

Both of these theories sound good. I honnestly don't know what to think of Jack.

wasn't it weird that locke actually seemed to forget about the button for a few minutes? that's been his whole thing lately.

I don't think that it's so much that Locke has Jack believing in the button- I was mostly defending Locke's reasoning in Orientation- get Jack to push the button once, and not only will he stop telling others not to push it, but he'll start pushing it himself, or even remind others to push it. This is the power he has over Jack.

You bring up an interesting point, though, dm, about how Jack has the power over John. Certainly that's one way to see it, but since Locke wants the button pushed anyway, and he has all of these people to push it now that Jack isn't trying to stop them, I think he comes out ahead in the power struggle.

I also thought it was odd that Locke could forget about the button, Standing on the Beach.

My husband thought it was interesting how Desmond took care of the button pushing all those years and now we have a whole clan of people, on shifts, and it gets forgotten, almost. Too much distraction.

The promo for next week looks great, and once again I can hardly wait.

I need a countdown clock for 7 days.

Put me in the betting pool for Locke being the first one who misses inputting the numbers!!!!

Put me in the betting pool for Locke being the first one who misses inputting the numbers!!!!

I think so too. That would be a good thing, IMO. It's like the time my dad accidently mopped the hardwood floor with the wrong kind of cleaner. When he realized it, he ran around getting the stuff up before it could stain, cussing up a storm, angry as hell. Although the rest of the family was sorry that it happened, we were all glad it was his fault- because the way he was acting, he would have killed whoever had done it.

It's like that. John would flip out at whoever forgot the button, so it better be him.

Who was on the shift with Locke?

As you can see in the preview, Locke does miss the countdown...

reminder ALL PREVIEW discussion is to be spoiler fonted.

You always lose a certain amount of freedom when you take charge of a situation

Locke might have won the psychological "battle" against Jack (and the other sceptics) to continue pushing the button, but he is now worse off because of the burden of responsability towards that button.

It's interesting that Locke can't be pinned down one way or another:

On one hand he's expressed the need for "restriction" and "structure" (folding the baby / doing what "the island wants us to do") and on the other hand he is the very symbol of freedom (gaining the use of his legs again / starting with a blank slate).

He also has a habit of "deciding" when things should change for everyone. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point he purposely allows the timer to run out "because it's time to move on".

I agree with dm.

I don't think that Jack believes in the button. When Locke was looking to see what was going on, Jack didn't want to be bothered and the beeping was a simple way to get rid of him at that moment. I also found the way he said "John, the button" was kind of patronizing. Sort of the way I would humour my daugther who insists on doing something that I know she will out grow soon enough.
I didn't find anything patronizing...They had 4 min left so someone had to push it. Kate was off getting supplies & Locke was distracted asking a bunch of questions about Sawyer. I didn't even think it was a case of trying to get rid of Locke, it was just being practical-it's beeping & somebody needs to handle it.

Jack can be reluctant to accept certain responsibilities at first, but when he commits himself it's absolutely. He's either in or out. He pushed it in Orientation & to him that was a promise so he's bound now. It's why he resisted in the first place, both for himself & because he knew it would enslave them all.

Jack has been suspicious of Locke ("we're going to have a Locke problem") ever since the hatch was found.

He did sound exasperated and patronizing to Locke... in a "will you please stop asking me questions and go push that little button of yours" kind of way.

As you can see in the preview, Locke does miss the countdown...

I have a feeling that will end up being another dream sequence, like when Jin spoke in English in the preview for EHH.

Jack has been suspicious of Locke ("we're going to have a Locke problem") ever since the hatch was found.
Jack did seem to sound patronizing, in a "will you please stop asking me questions and go push that little button of yours" kind of way.
I didn't find it to have that tone....Jack had his hands full so he can't really be verbose. It was more like "hey time's running out" or "John don't forget about it" than "you got us into this mess so why don't you do your job."

But we know from Rose that Jack recently completed a shift in the hatch. So I assume it means he's a regular button pusher now like everyone else until they figure something out.

I didn't find that tone to it. I think that's reading more into it...Jack had his hands full so he can't really be verbose. It was more like "hey time's running out" or "John you're supposed to be pushing it" than "Hey you got us into this mess so why don't you do your job."

I took it more like when my daughter insists for weeks on end that she has to be the one to turn on the porch light the second we get home, then one day she is excited about something else and gets distracted and runs into the house to play with something and doesn't give the light a second thought. I stood there and said "Katie, the light?" and she was like - oh yah and ran back to turn it on, but she had forgotten how important it was for those few minutes until I mentioned it again.

That's how I saw Jack and Locke in that exchange. Like, Jack realized that the button was soooo important to Locke until something else comes along to replace his attention.

Get out! Is that true? Where did you get that?

As you can see in the preview, Locke does miss the countdown...

reminder ALL PREVIEW discussion is to be spoiler fonted.

its on the canadian promo.

its on the canadian promo.

Do you have a link? I want to see that.

That's how I saw Jack and Locke in that exchange. Like, Jack realized that the button was soooo important to Locke until something else comes along to replace his attention.

No kiddin' ... Locke the one that was so gung ho on the button, and yet when the alarm sounded, he forgot?

people ANY AND ALL PROMO talk is to be spoiler fonted. period.
some people dont watch the promos and want to avoid them.
so please, use the font or i will start deleting comments about the promo
that are unfonted. thank you.

Can you tell us more, in spoiler fashion if required, of what you saw on the Canadian promo? Thanks....

I thought Locke was acting in his weak character in this epi. He has 2 sides to
him, the strong wiseman hunter, and the frail weak side. He seemed out of
his depth with Eko standing there. Locke was taking it all in, though, for
his connection to what the Island will do next, demand next, seek next,
at least that is my impression of it. And I do think Jack dismissed Locke
by telling him to get back to the button. Whether Jack believes it now or
not, he was still dismissive of Locke, I agree with that opinion.

Michelle, I am gonna have to disagree with you on this one. Although I usually agree with you and credit you.

It seemed like Locke gave him the "ahhh, my equal" or the"at last we meet, Batman" look. Locke was not afraid; he questioned the stranger Eko.

And yes, Locke got the "get outta my hair" line from Jack.

But this is all minor stuff.


I thought Locke was acting in his weak character in this epi. He has 2 sides to
him, the strong wiseman hunter, and the frail weak side. He seemed out of
his depth with Eko standing there. Locke was taking it all in, though, for
his connection to what the Island will do next, demand next, seek next,
at least that is my impression of it. And I do think Jack dismissed Locke
by telling him to get back to the button. Whether Jack believes it now or
not, he was still dismissive of Locke, I agree with that opinion.

I think it was just a matter that the alarm was beeping, and there would be plenty of time to explain to Locke what the deal was with Sawyer as soon as he pushed the button.

But we know from Rose that Jack recently completed a shift in the hatch. So I assume it means he's a regular button pusher now like everyone else until they figure something out.

Hmmm. That's an interesting thought. I just took it as he's been spending so much time there doing more Jack-type stuff...investigating the ins and outs, etc. Or maybe showering! :biggrin:

Also...I TOTALLY agree with whoever (sorry) said that Locke will probably be the one who misses the button push. And I add...and Jack - the button nonbeliever - will be completely irate that Locke blew it.

In the Canadian promo:

We see Sawyer whisper " I love her" but we can only assume it means Kate. We see Jack and Kate kiss and then Kate pull away from someone. They make it look like Jack but i think the shirt color is different. Michael and Ecko watch the filmstrip and they find blast doors in the hatch. Also Locke supposedly misses the countdown

Michelle, I am gonna have to disagree with you on this one. Although I usually agree with you and credit you.

It seemed like Locke gave him the "ahhh, my equal" or the"at last we meet, Batman" look. Locke was not afraid; he questioned the stranger Eko.

.

I'll have to watch again, but that was my first impression. I want to see the epi
again any way, I thought it was that good! I'll watch it this evening (after
Survivor & The Apprentice, of course)!;)

He did sound exasperated and patronizing to Locke... in a "will you please stop asking me questions and go push that little button of yours" kind of way.

I saw it as Jack's way-delayed comback to Locke's "with all due respect Jack, since when do I report to you."
If Jack was truely concerned about the countdown, he would have asked with urgency for Locke to push the button and then help out Kate with getting supplies. Instead he was almost staking out his territory. As in, I'm saving someone's life now, you go do your 'all roads lead to this button which is our destiny' thing.
As a Jack fan, I found that exchange to be among season two's funniest moments so far.

I saw it as Jack's way-delayed comback to Locke's "with all due respect Jack, since when do I report to you."
If Jack was truely concerned about the countdown, he would have asked with urgency for Locke to push the button and then help out Kate with getting supplies. Instead he was almost staking out his territory. As in, I'm saving someone's life now, you go do your 'all roads lead to this button which is our destiny' thing.
As a Jack fan, I found that exchange to be among season two's funniest moments so far.

Beautiful synopsis!

I saw it as Jack's way-delayed comback to Locke's "with all due respect Jack, since when do I report to you."
If Jack was truely concerned about the countdown, he would have asked with urgency for Locke to push the button and then help out Kate with getting supplies. Instead he was almost staking out his territory. As in, I'm saving someone's life now, you go do your 'all roads lead to this button which is our destiny' thing.
As a Jack fan, I found that exchange to be among season two's funniest moments so far.

Hee hee! John, go back to the kid's table, the grown-ups are trying to talk.

Actually, that sounds 'bout right. I can see how you would think of Jack as being the one in control of this situation. Though I still think that Locke getting Jack to "accept" the button on some level was a big show of power, and that it stemmed from the end scene in Orientation.

Jack didn't need a comeback- he already had a great one, "With all due respect, John- but you lied." Why does everyone forget that part? It was great!

I saw it as Jack's way-delayed comback to Locke's "with all due respect Jack, since when do I report to you."
If Jack was truely concerned about the countdown, he would have asked with urgency for Locke to push the button and then help out Kate with getting supplies. Instead he was almost staking out his territory. As in, I'm saving someone's life now, you go do your 'all roads lead to this button which is our destiny' thing.
As a Jack fan, I found that exchange to be among season two's funniest moments so far.

I hate disagreeing w/a fellow Jack fan lol :doh: but I have trouble finding this much in that exchange. I think Foxy's inflection/tone was more indicative of the clock almost being out & Locke didn't have time to ask questions rather than it being any payback. Kate was already gone & she wouldn't need Locke's help to get a few medical supplies.

Imo Jack does care...He pushed the button initially because he doubted that he was right it did nothing. He took a leap of faith & committed himself which is typical of him even if wrongly.

I hate disagreeing w/a fellow Jack fan lol :doh: but I have trouble finding this much in that exchange. I think Foxy's inflection/tone was more indicative of the clock almost being out & Locke didn't have time to ask questions rather than it being any payback. Kate was already gone & she wouldn't need Locke's help to get a few medical supplies.

Imo Jack does care...He pushed the button initially because he doubted that he was right it did nothing. He took a leap of faith & committed himself which is typical of him even if wrongly.

With all due respect...you're blinded by your Jacklove! :biggrin:

With all due respect...you're blinded by your Jacklove! :biggrin:
It's just my take on what the exchange meant. I don't think because I have a different opinion it means I'm blind ;) Maybe I read it right, maybe someone else did. It's the beauty of discussion to try and figure it out :)

Imo Jack does care...He pushed the button initially because he doubted that he was right it did nothing. He took a leap of faith & committed himself which is typical of him even if wrongly.

We disagree on the meaning of Jack's comment to Locke, but I think you are right that he sees the importance in pushing the button and that the end of Orientation was a big step for him.
But for now the button is just something he would rather let others take care of. Something more comfortable for him to dismiss as important to others rather than accept as important for himself. Kind of like the memorial service when they burned the fuselage. He reluctantly saw how much it meant to everyone else, but still didn't feel comfortable taking part. The button represents a lot of faith-issues he's still struggling with, and we're learning bit by bit why (I expect the fate of his marriage will explain a lot).

All in all, it was great to see Jack again after being MIA (new episode wise) for four weeks (counting the reruns in Oct.)

We disagree on the meaning of Jack's comment to Locke, but I think you are right that he sees the importance in pushing the button and that the end of Orientation was a big step for him.
But for now the button is just something he would rather let others take care of. Something more comfortable for him to dismiss as important to others rather than accept as important for himself. Kind of like the memorial service when they burned the fuselage. He reluctantly saw how much it meant to everyone else, but still didn't feel comfortable taking part. The button represents a lot of faith-issues he's still struggling with, and we're learning bit by bit why (I expect the fate of his marriage will explain a lot).

All in all, it was great to see Jack again after being MIA (new episode wise) for four weeks (counting the reruns in Oct.)



Seems about right to me

I do not beleive that Locke would be the one to forget to push the button unless he wanted to... The button is Locke's "thing" like his power over everyone to do what he wants them to do

It's just my take on what the exchange meant. I don't think because I have a different opinion it means I'm blind ;) Maybe I read it right, maybe someone else did. It's the beauty of discussion to try and figure it out :)

I know...and I was just teasing you because you began your post with stating you were a fan of Jack...and I just noticed that your admiration/devotion seemed to shine through your post.

Personally, I hope you're right because, though I'm not a card-carrying Jack fan, nor a card-carrying Jack hater, I find him to be condescending and controlling most of the time...which I attribute not to a personality flaw in and of itself, but more to his doctorness. :biggrin: So it would be a refreshing aspect of his personality.

It seems to me that many of the characters have some connection to Jack, I am wondering if the whole show is going to end up revolving around him and his life...

It seems to me that many of the characters have some connection to Jack, I am wondering if the whole show is going to end up revolving around him and his life...

That's true grif-fan. I thought it was Hurley. But it's Jack that has more connections.

I thought that, when Locke and Eko were talking, I heard the alarm sounding again. Then, still while they were talking it stopped. Haven't had the chance to go back and see/hear again? Does anyone else recall that? Do you suppose the alarm stopping--when clearly Locke was occupied talking to Eko--meant that someone else had pushed the button, or that it had been missed?

I remember hearing when he told him to go back...but I don't recall if it stopped. I haven't rewatched it yet. Football is on. Happy Thanksgiving Beag!

Thanks, car! You and yours too!

did i miss something?? i got the impression that AL shot another cop. who said she got shot other than losing the baby and shooting jason?

Missy I was confused about that too, because I didn't get the "officer related shooting" part. I misunderstood it until today, and someone's post gave me a lightbulb moment. I think she was in councelling because she was shot and needed to deal with that before she could go back to work. Until today I was under the impression that she did something that caused another officer to be shot.

That's true grif-fan. I thought it was Hurley. But it's Jack that has more connections.

I read someone's post somewhere, suggesting maybe that Jack was the one that operated on AL after she was shot ... so possibly their "connection" is that, not just the bar scene ...

I read someone's post somewhere, suggesting maybe that Jack was the one that operated on AL after she was shot ... so possibly their "connection" is that, not just the bar scene ...

Initially I had the same idea, but wouldn't Jack have remembered her (at least recognized her face?). And wouldn't Ana have remembered who her surgeon was? Although I'm fairly sure that if we ever see the moment where Ana was shot, we'll also get a scene at St.Sebastian and our trusty Dr. Shepherd will be somewhere nearby. :biggrin:

Regarding Jack's line to Locke: I could see how it might have different interpretations. It really depends on how you're approaching the Jack-Locke dynamic and how you see Jack as a character. If you think he's patronizing, then that line could fit in with your POV.

I saw it as a good way of getting Locke out of the room so that Jack could do his job and look after Sawyer. Not to mention the fact that someone actually did have to go punch in the code (unless they wanted the world to end ;))

I think Jack, while being focused on getting Sawyer's fever down didn't have the time to play "trauma tour guide" to Locke, as well as reminding Locke of the obligation the Locke has committed them all to.

wasn't it weird that locke actually seemed to forget about the button for a few minutes? that's been his whole thing lately.

Maybe seeing a giant, menacing-looking stranger come into the hatch with an incoherent Sawyer draped over his shoulder interrupted his routine. :biggrin:

I also took it like Jack just wanted to get Locke out of his way, and he knew that would do the trick.

I thought that, when Locke and Eko were talking, I heard the alarm sounding again. Then, still while they were talking it stopped. Haven't had the chance to go back and see/hear again? Does anyone else recall that? Do you suppose the alarm stopping--when clearly Locke was occupied talking to Eko--meant that someone else had pushed the button, or that it had been missed?

Kate was still in the bunker. So was Jack, I do believe. If you did hear the alarm going off, either one of them could have pushed the button.

No one missed a button push this episode..

I know...and I was just teasing you because you began your post with stating you were a fan of Jack...and I just noticed that your admiration/devotion seemed to shine through your post.

Personally, I hope you're right because, though I'm not a card-carrying Jack fan, nor a card-carrying Jack hater, I find him to be condescending and controlling most of the time...which I attribute not to a personality flaw in and of itself, but more to his doctorness. :biggrin: So it would be a refreshing aspect of his personality.
No worries :) My MO is to primarily reply in rebuttal to provide a different perspective..It's not about thinking Jack has no flaws but rather saving wrist strain as I discuss enough as it is lol.

I think that's a problem Jack's character faces...His motivations often aren't examined passed the face value of what is characteristic of his stereotypes (leader, doctor etc.). So I think the real Jack gets lost in there somewhere... Though I'm not saying he has no stereotypical traits...Just for i.e. controlling, imo, connotates something different than what is asked of his positions in providing direction & control/order over a crisis/situation. It's being domineering & personally repressive on others..Jack doesn't lock ppl away for disagreeing with him or dictate who they should be. He is someone though who needs to feel like he has personal control over his emotions & world order (logic), so feels unsettled when those are brought into ?.

Kate was still in the bunker. So was Jack, I do believe. If you did hear the alarm going off, either one of them could have pushed the button.

No one missed a button push this episode..

Except that Kate was trying to find the medication, and Jack was trying to save Sawyer. Locke was the only one not busy.

Why has nobody commented on the title of this thread being WRONG?! Jack never says that line. I just watched the episode again, and Jack says, pretty calmly-

"John, the button"

No exclamation point, no "The button, John!", WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Why has nobody commented on the title of this thread being WRONG?! Jack never says that line. I just watched the episode again, and Jack says, pretty calmly-

"John, the button"

No exclamation point, no "The button, John!", WRONG WRONG WRONG.
that's exactly how it came across to me...very calm and matter of fact.

that's exactly how it came across to me...very calm and matter of fact.

calm, matter-of-fact, with a slight twinge of "i'm a doctor, not a button pusher, and i'm busy, so get out of my hair". But very slight.

Terry and Matthew are amazing actors, mostly Terry's facial expressions and Matthew's tones of voices...

Why has nobody commented on the title of this thread being WRONG?! Jack never says that line. I just watched the episode again, and Jack says, pretty calmly-

"John, the button"

No exclamation point, no "The button, John!", WRONG WRONG WRONG.

I don't have a photographic memory- and I like exclamation points.
!!!
:biggrin:

I don't think it changes the debate in any way.

And I agree that Jack does have a control freak streak in him- but I also think that Locke can be very controling as well, he's just better at hiding it. Things like the way he treated Boone, or the way he tends to go around telling everyone what they should do (he did this like crazy in Collision) tell me that he can be just as controlling as Jack.
Really, Jack only seems to be a crazy control freak when he skips out on sleep. Locke is that way all the time.