In the celebrated graphic novel Watchmen, one of the main characters is a superman named Dr. Manhattan. A scientist, he is reduced by a freak accident (the incident?) to pure energy. His physical body is obliterated but his electromagnetic “soul” persists.

With this transformation in mind, check out this quote from the whispers Sawyer hears on the beach in outlaws:*
Oh my god there's a guy out there
Dennis (?) find out what's going on
Did he see us?
Maybe
Open it
Did you see what direction he went?
Right through those trees
Go and get him
There is an explanation (resolution?) and I bet you haven't thought of it
What is it?
He's been in a plane crash
Are you sure?
I know what it's like for a plane to crash
Complain, complain, complain
I want to get closer
I know what you said, but he's looking around
What if he shoots us or something
------
There may be something, but it may be slack (?)
Let's go
Has he seen us?
(Alarms go off)
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry
(faint...could be echo from alarm)
Intruder, Intruder
Hide against the bushes
Open the door
I know what it's like for a plane to crash
Complain, complain, complain
I know what you said, but...
As others have noted, the foregoing sounds eerily like the dialogue of ghosts – ones who may not know they’re dead. Now check out this quote from the whispers in the jungle when Shannon gets shot:
Shannon
She likes the guy, she likes the guy
Shannon
Your life and time is up
Help me
(Screaming in the background)
Shannon, meet me on the other side
Her song
Hi sis
(Gun shot)
Note how at least one of the whispers apparently refers to Shannon as "sis" when she's shot. Recall as well that Vincent led Shannon to Boone's grave right before she died.

Is it possible the whispers are the electromagnetic remains of everyone who's ever died on the island? Could this explain the island's strange electromagnetic forces? Perhaps, nothing, not even our electromagnetic souls can escape the Island's magnetic embrace.

Could the whispers be a chorus of the dead?

*Transcripts of the whispers courtesy of rvturnage, penyours, and the other incredible folks of the Whispers Thread (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=38199) at the fuselage.

ETA May 10, 2007:I think Ben is holding Jacob's electromagnetic "ghost" prisoner in that remote house. Maybe He was once the leader of the Others and got killed during the hostilities. For a long time, Ben was the only one who could "hear" Jacob and thus tap his powerful psychic mind. But now Locke can too, which threatens Ben immensely. And what did Jacob say to Locke? "Help me..."

I once argued that the Lost Experience is a metaphor for what's happening on the show. Recall that the main plot line involved a dude of dubious origins (i.e., Mittelwerk) taking control of the Hanso Foundation and imprisoning old Alvar himself. That's basically what's happening on the Island now. Ben has seized control of Jacob's foundation, holding Him prisoner and speaking in His name.

*Transcripts of the whispers courtesy of lost-links (http://lostlinks.net/whispers.htm).
Since I read the Whispers threads here, I thought I'd add that those transcripts were done by our own "penyours" and "rvturnage". They worked on the whispers from surround sound with audio equipment to isolate them into left, right and center tracks. If you listen to the audios...it's even eerier than reading the transcripts. Lostlinks is hosting them (ETA the transcripts, that is). Do not listen late at night...LOL.

bigmouth: some of the other whispers mention a gate and I found some info
on the Ganzir gate in Sumerian mythology. Maybe it should go on the Tiberius thread.

I like your theory..almost forgot to mention that. I'll give it some more thought.

tabby: It's already there! When I say "others have noted," I'm referring to the Gathered. I actually posted some of these thoughts on Tiberius, then decided to repost in the main forum, as well. You're right as well that I should have credited the transcribers--thanks! Do you know if recordings of the separate channels available on-line? I've only read the transcripts.

Excellent!!!

tabby: It's already there! When I say "others have noted," I'm referring to the Gathered. I actually posted some of these thoughts on Tiberius, then decided to repost in the main forum, as well.

I know. :) I was referring to the "Ganzir gate" info.


You're right as well that I should have credited the transcribers--thanks! Do you know if recordings of the separate channels available on-line? I've only read the transcripts.
I was just trying to provide additional info for those interested...no problemo!

Yes they are. I'll get the link for you.
ETA: two whisper threads
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=25491
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=26636

The "Ich weiss nicht" German tidbit is interesting since one of the tailies who was initially captured by the Others was German.

Tabby: Oh my...you may be onto something with this Gates of Ganzir stuff. Check out this description from the Myth of the Huluppu (http://www.mindspring.com/~mysticgryphon/huluppu.htm)Tree involving Gilgamesh:
Because of the cry of the young maidens,
His pukku and mikku fell into the "great dwelling,"
He put in his hand, could not reach them,
Put in his foot, could not reach them,
He sat down at the great gate ganzir, the "eye" of the nether world,
Gilgamesh wept, his face turns pale . . . .
More shortly.

Tabby: Oh my...you may be onto something with this Gates of Ganzir stuff. Check out this description from the Myth of the Huluppu (http://www.mindspring.com/~mysticgryphon/huluppu.htm)Tree involving Gilgamesh:

More shortly.
Thanks, bigmouth...I saw that too but didn't follow up.

And "GIZA RN" is an anagram for Ganzir. Just kidding.:biggrin:

I'm not one to go in for Grand Unified Theories of Lost, but here's one I'm mulling over:
If indeed the Whispers are voices of the dead, they seem to parallel the idea of EVP (electronic voice phenomenon) recordings of strange voices that are believed to be spiritual in nature and perhaps be communications of ghosts or the dead. Paranormal research into EVP goes all the way back to Edison, who thought he could invent a machine subtle enough to detect and communicate with the spirits. Broadly speaking, EVP can be lumped in with psi or psychic phenomenon. Usually EVP is manifest by making recordings, then playinig those recordings back later and listening for messages. Thus, the Whispers might be similar to EVP, but are not EVP.
In another thread, someone points out that other psychic phenomenon. For example, Locke's dream about Boone and the smugglers' plane, or Claire's visions before she was abducted by the Others, or Jack seeing his father's apparition (perhaps). Locke might also have been psychically healed.

Now, some people speculate that certain psychic phenomenon are induced by strong electromagnetic impulses that interfere with brain activity. This has been used to explain alien abduction experiences, as well as religious transcendental experiences. In fact, people have even invented helmuts that can be worn with alternating electro-magnetic waves that induce the wearer to experience transcentental (if not psychic) episodes.

So, I guess my theory is that all the paranormal activities in the island are related to the strong electomagnetic forces at work on the island. This doesn't necessarily rule out or explain away the psychic experiences. In fact, maybe the EM actually enhances this experiences.

Something like that, anyway. I'm just sayin'.

BM,

As I write this...I am in the sunken part of my living room. To the left are six door walls (glass) facing the pool which is surrounded by now bare tall trees facing the lake front...it is dusk...gray and dim light...the wind is blowing causing the trees to cast shadows into the living room...which out of the corner of my eye appear to be "things" moving about the room...I AM FREAKED OUT after reading that transcript...chill bumps are up and down my arms and my hair is standing up on my neck...HOLY CRUD!!!!

After I read the "Hi Sis" line...Bailey's baby monitor picked up her yawning...I jumped out of my chair.

I am alone...so alone..ya...I'll sleep tonight. Think I will go wake Bailey up now.:(

I love this theory.

In the celebrated graphic novel Watchmen, one of the main characters is a superman named Dr. Manhattan. A scientist, he is reduced by a freak accident (the incident?) to pure energy. His physical body is obliterated but his electromagnetic “soul” persists.

With this transformation in mind, check out this quote from the whispers Sawyer hears on the beach in outlaws:*

As others have noted, the foregoing sounds eerily like the dialogue of ghosts – ones who may not know they’re dead. Now check out this quote from the whispers in the jungle when Shannon gets shot:

Note how at least one of the whispers apparently refers to Shannon as "sis" when she's shot. Recall as well that Vincent led Shannon to Boone's grave right before she died.

Is it possible the whispers are the electromagnetic remains of everyone who's ever died on the island? Could this explain the island's strange electromagnetic forces? Perhaps, nothing, not even our electromagnetic souls can escape the Island's magnetic embrace.

Could the whispers be a chorus of the dead?

*Transcripts of the whispers courtesy of lost-links (http://lostlinks.net/whispers.htm).

This is SO COOL! Could it be played out on mainstream tv, tho??? Or, would only us 'Lage-Geeks like it???

Only one problem, if the voices are the spirits of people who have died ON the island, why did Frank Duckett speak to Sawyer?

Only one problem, if the voices are the spirits of people who have died ON the island, why did Frank Duckett speak to Sawyer?

That's a GOOD point...very logical...maybe it's ANY dead people? Nah, that's too far-fetched...maybe it's the Losties's subconscious? Nah, that doesn't work...I don't know...it certainly seems, at least to me, that some of the whispers are of "beings" that are watching the Losties or the Losty in question...that's on camera at the time...but the Frank Duckett one has me confused...at least we know that he's dead, that's one thing that matches with this theory...

And where could the whisperers "be" if they are alive? And doesn't it seem that the whispers are heard inside the heads of the Losties vs. the Losties are walking through the jungle and hear someone NEARBY whispering?

Baileysdad: Thanks for the support! I know what you mean about the chills--got a little freaked out myself when the thought first occurred to me.

BTD Greg: Definitely agree. Have you seen my thread (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=19854) re the pineal gland and the "sickness"? Occultists like Lovecraft believed that the pineal gland is a psychic "third eye." And modern science has shown that the pineal gland is responsive to electromagnetic fields.

Junie and Jayemel: Great point re Duckett. I'm guessing that wasn't really his electromagnetic soul speaking to Sawyer. Who or whatever brought them to the Island likely has the ability to read minds. Perhaps Duckett's voice was to keep Sawyer focused on the boar, which struck me as a test of sorts (i.e., whether he would overcome his thirst for revenge).

Besides, we've heard Walt whisper, and I'm fairly confident he's not dead. Perhaps the whispers also relate to remote viewing, which could involve projecting one's electromagnetic consciousness over a distance. I've even wondered if remote viewers can somehow occupy or possess animals with their electromagnetic "souls."

Junie and Jayemel: Great point re Duckett. I'm guessing that wasn't really his electromagnetic soul speaking to Sawyer. Who or whatever brought them to the Island likely has the ability to read minds. Perhaps Duckett's voice was to keep Sawyer focused on the boar, which struck me as a test of sorts (i.e., whether he would overcome his thirst for revenge).

So then how do we know that any of the voices are real and aren't just used to manipulate the survivors? Maybe the "Hi Sis" was whomever trying to comfort Shannon by conjuring Boone in her dying moments.

So then how do we know that any of the voices are real and aren't just used to manipulate the survivors? Maybe the "Hi Sis" was whomever trying to comfort Shannon by conjuring Boone in her dying moments.
Jayemel: We don't! Certainly not for certain, if that makes sense. But no whispers comforted Boone in his dying moments--at least, none that we heard, though his mind was admittedly on Shannon. Besides, most of the rest of the dialogue whispered to Shannon, Sawyer, and Sayid was anything but comforting. Ranges from odd to outright creepy, if you ask me.

I also feel like a single voice would speak more decisively, without all the background chatter. I get the sense there is a powerful voice, but that it struggles to be heard over the crowd.

But no whispers comforted Boone in his dying moments--at least, none that we heard, though his mind was admittedly on Shannon. Besides, most of the rest of the dialogue whispered to Shannon, Sawyer, and Sayid was anything but comforting. Ranges from odd to outright creepy, if you ask me.

Could that be because the whispers can only make themselves heard in the jungle? I don't know what the reason for that would be, but I don't remember anyone hearing whispers in the caves or on the beach.

I also feel like a single voice would speak more decisively, without all the background chatter. I get the sense there is a powerful voice, but that it struggles to be heard over the crowd.

That's a VERY interesting idea. Any ideas about who or what the powerful voice would be? And I got goosebumps from reading the transcripts! So spooky! :)

Jayemel: We don't! Certainly not for certain, if that makes sense. But no whispers comforted Boone in his dying moments--at least, none that we heard, though his mind was admittedly on Shannon. Besides, most of the rest of the dialogue whispered to Shannon, Sawyer, and Sayid was anything but comforting. Ranges from odd to outright creepy, if you ask me.

But in different situations the subjects need to be poked differently. For instance, maybe the scared Shannon first to lead to her death and then felt guilty for needing to kill her so they comforted her in her dying moments.

Right now, it is a very reasonable deduction to say that all the voices, including Frank Duckett, are from dead people, however, we don't know if it's really the dead people speaking or why they would be or why their voices would be utilized.

I think next week's episode will shed light on this theory as:

In the preview Kate asks, "Do you believe in ghosts?" Perhaps she hears the whispers.

Woah, cool topic. I've heard the theory before around here, but wow, I had no idea that the whispers have been translated! This is crazy.

Must... avoid... spoiler above until after Wednesday night!!!

Those are some good thoughts on EVP, BTD_Greg

sickotriz, not only are the whispers translated but they're separated into left, right and center tracks from surround sound, noise filtered and available to listen to

Must... avoid... spoiler above until after Wednesday night!!!

The spoiler is info contained in the preview and my speculation on it. The only reason I spoiler fonted the statement is because the mods have done their job and beaten me into submission by levying two warnings seemingly without expiration dates upon my my account.

And perhaps I should stop watching so many episodes of Scrubs in a row because I'm beginning to rant like Dr. Cox.

So...who believes in ghosts?

In all seriousness, though, Jayemel's question persists. Still not clear to me whether these are actually the ghosts of the people they seem to be (e.g., Kate's creepy father) or simply someone or something manipulating them by reading their subconscious.

Also, I found the posts (here (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=635711&postcount=333)and here (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=635711&postcount=333)) on the threads Tabby linked where folks can listen for themselves to the separated channels. Like Tabby said, muy creepy stuff!.

bigmouth, I started a thread about the fact that Jin worked as a doorman at the Seoul Gateway Hotel in Korea.

Is this a hint about a "Soul Gateway" in the story? We have an apparent reference to someone being near the gate (in the whispers) and there is the Ganzir gate in Sumerian mythology (ties to Mesopotamia mentioned by Locke).

Then I remembered your thread, so I'm posting it here too. Maybe it makes sense to merge my new one into here?

after reading the transcripts of the whispers, it sounds more like a bunch of security guards spying on people and somehow communicating in a way where the transmissions are manifested as whispers that people can hear. a lot of the comments seem kind of like a smart-alec peanut gallery of sorts talking to the television, kind of like when someone is watching a horror movie and they're telling the character not to go into a room because the killer is obviously in there or something like that...

That said, I think that souls communicating would be a lot cooler than a bunch of fat rent-a-cops talking while they watch security monitors.

after reading the transcripts of the whispers, it sounds more like a bunch of security guards spying on people and somehow communicating in a way where the transmissions are manifested as whispers that people can hear. a lot of the comments seem kind of like a smart-alec peanut gallery of sorts talking to the television, kind of like when someone is watching a horror movie and they're telling the character not to go into a room because the killer is obviously in there or something like that...

I've actually posted this in the whispers thread. That's the feeling I get from them too.

As for a chorus of the dead: There's only one line of dialogue in all the transcriptions that is definately from a dead person, and that's "It'll come back around". The line "Dying Sucks" is close to what Boone said, but not exact...and the "hi sis" lines...well, just to throw it out there, a brother and sister were also taken from the Tailies as well as a German guy. Not that i believe it's the kids, but it certainly is as possible as ghosts.

also, for anyone interested, lostlinks.net now has the audio available to download, so you don't have to dig through the threads for it.

rvt

I Paranormal research into EVP goes all the way back to Edison, who thought he could invent a machine subtle enough to detect and communicate with the spirits. .

I was mulling over this myself... and you know what came back to me?


"Do not attempt to use the computer to communicate {insert film splice "with the dead." }"


The only communication we've seen is with Walt. Walt who is missing. Walk who manifested an image in the forest then vanished. Walt who is probably dead.

koralis: That's brilliant! I'd add as well that, if Walt is indeed an electromagnetic "spirit," it makes sense he would use the computer as an entry point for the Hatch, which seems otherwise designed to block out em fields.

I also like your comment for another reason. Forgive me for constantly linking my own threads and posts, but did you see my comment (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=837646#post837646) over on the Aaron is the Messiah thread? Aaron was the brother of, and mouthpiece for, Moses.

If they are, as you suggest elsewhere (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=40445), the children of Dharma, that would make Aaron the "brother" of Walt. And if Walt is an electromagnetic "ghost," Aaron may be called upon to serve as Walt's mouthpiece.

Thank you. Now lets start tying in some other observations and see what I can corroborate!

1) Someone had mentioned that Jin worked at the Seoul Gateway hotel. Hmmmm.

2) In the whispers, we keep hearing someone say "Eye to eye". In the intro scenes we often see a closeup of a character's eye. What phrase comes to mind? "The eyes are the gateway to the soul"

3) The title of the show... LOST. By itself, a wierd title for the show... it's less about the group being lost and more about being stranded/crashed/etc. However... it could be read as shorthand for the phase "Lost Souls", which in a bit of misdirection is not describing our group at all, but describing the dead on the island.



It could be that the swan station serves as a bottleneck, a gateway, to the spirit world. The magnetic field serves to cap it closed. I think the spirits on the island were deliberately chosen to be released, then they capped it again. They're letting the known "good" souls roam free while keeping the bad ones (or the ones they don't know about one way or antoher) in the bottle. How would they know that they're good souls? Well, many of those are probably ex-dharma employees whether they died on the island or not probably doesn't matter.

Opening up the bottle to send a message to the other side might allow a gap where something could attempt to come through. Hence, "the incident" and why the dharma employees are instructed to only use the computer to enter the numbers. After further thought they realized that even letting people know that they CAN communicate with the dead might be too much temptation and so they cut it out of the film strip.

It is possible, maybe even likely, that there are two groups of spirits on the island... the good Dharma spirits (such as welcomed Shannon into death) and the evil spirits that were inadvertantly let out of the bottle (the monster.)

I love the direction this theory is taking. What if the incident accidentally opened a portal, releasing spirits both good and bad? Maybe there are spirits on the island that have unfinished business with the survivors -- the man Sawyer killed, Jack's father, Boone (for Shannon), etc. And I don't have the clip handy, but weren't most of the images in Eko's mind some of us theorize were being scanned by Smokey actually images of people? I'm just brainstorming now, but what if Smokey needed to know what spirits to release or something? This is just pure, utter (and wild) speculation...

3)LOST. By itself, a wierd title for the show

But not novel. Just a few years ago there was a game show with that title. I liked the concept, though not the execution. It may still be in production in some countries.

I thought I'd weigh in on some bigger-picture plot points if what I've stipulated about the gateway turn out to be true. Basically, Dharma becomes the authority on which spirits get to live on one side or another. In essence, Dharma would be in control of the keys to the jail, the only access across the Berlin wall, or whatever metaphor suits your fancy.


Let me take an aside to discuss Dharma motivations. BF skinner was responcible for more than merely the concept of the Skinner box. I think the Lost writers were lobbing an easy one by making it look like it's a reference to the hatch. I'm more and more convinced that the hatch is in fact operational and important (as stated above. :) So, what else did Skinner believe and work on? He wrote some books about social engineering...

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/B.F._Skinner

Beyond Freedom and Dignity advanced the thesis that obsolete social concepts, like free will and human dignity (by which Skinner meant belief in individual autonomy) stood in the way of greater human happiness and productivity.
...

Dignity is the practice of giving individuals credit for their actions. To say "Skinner is brilliant" means that Skinner is an originating force. If Skinner is right, he is merely the locus of his environment. He is a not an originating force and he had no choice in saying the things he said or doing the things he did. Skinner's environment and genetics allowed and made him write his book. This is not to say that that means it is not true. The environment and genetics of the advocates of freedom and dignity make them fight the reality of their activity being grounded in determinism.

BF skinner believed that subsuming oneself into the collective would lead to greater human happiness, and after all there really is no "self" really because he seemed to be an adherant to predestination and determinism. I stipulate that this is the "work' that Dharma was interested in, not so much the boxes. As further corroboration, reference the Whispers... one of the lines said something like "that's the role you play" or something similar. I've tried to find it again but am having trouble. It was indicitive of someone being "forced" to do the collective will even though they didn't personally like it.



Ok, so Dharma has a goal of a worldwide collective utopian society. A pipe dream, right? Not everyone is going to play along... it can't work because the individualists are going to prey upon the community. It's exactly the reason that communism can't work and Dharma knows it, but has a cunning plan.

They've discovered proof positive of an afterlife. Souls linger on past physical death, and they discover the Soul Gateway. A plan forms... "kill them all and let Dharma sort them out." Those souls that will be compatible with the collective can stay on one side of the gateway (the "good" souls that are on The List), everyone else stays on the other side. they will have achieved their utopian ideal society.

So, Dharma develops a plague that they intend to unleash on the world. As far as they're concerned it's not "killing" anyone really... they're just moving people from one reality phase-state to another. They aren't ready to do it just yet though... something isn't ready. (what? *shrug*) Dharma will still need some corporal beings to man the gateway and to bring new beings into the world, or given the likely theology of the group, allow the souls on the "bad" side of the gate to be reborn as dharma children and help them achieve a status that will allow them to become part of the collective. By controlling reproduction, doing indoctrination of the only children on earth, etc, Dharma will eventually move all of humanity into harmony. It's a long-term goal, but it starts with wiping out everything here so that they can seize control.

So, that brings us back to the rumors of the sickness, the innoculations, etc. Dharma can keep a limited number of people alive during the sickness (who wants to bet it's either a period of 40 days like noah or 108 days such as we see in the mural?) Anyone from 815 that's ready for nirvana now gets killed off so that Dharma doesn't need to use the medicine on them and won't need to reincarnate them, etc.


I know, it's out there... but what a story, eh? It ties up most of the elements and seems plausible enough given what we know of the group. If I turn out to be right, then I called it! If not, well it was fun speculation. ;)

Concerning the "good" souls (at peace), I just stumbled on the translation of La Mer from roussue's paper.. posted in the whispers thread, and copied here. There seems to be precognition and foreshadowing going on concerning what conditions would allow the characters to move on?

---------------------------

Forshadowing, or for-knowing? It would seem to imply what conditions are neccessary for Shannon to be at peace so that she could die. (Similarly to Boone needing to let go of Shannon to be at peace... so that he could die.)


The whispers, concerning Shannon:
http://www.lostlinks.net/whispers.htm
Shannon
She likes the guy, she likes the guy
Shannon
Your life and and time is up
Help me
Shannon, meet me on the other side
Her song



Shannon translates the song on Roussoue's paper:
http://www.lostlinks.net/lyrics.htm



The Sea
Rocks them
Along the clear gulfs
And a song of love
The Sea
Soothes my heart for life



"And a song of love... Soothes my heart for life."

soothes my heart for life
That can be taken either way, for the rest of my life, or for my life before. Considering that the whispers kept saying "It'll come back around" some degree of foreshadowing is implied in the whispers.

Then can we qualify Walt as the leader of the chorus of the dead?

Then can we qualify Walt as the leader of the chorus of the dead?
CrichtonClone: That's a definite possibility. But don't rule out Adam and Eve. Don't think it was a coincidence that Jack followed an apparition to the caves, where they just happened to be buried.
100%

So, Dharma develops a plague that they intend to unleash on the world. As far as they're concerned it's not "killing" anyone really... they're just moving people from one reality phase-state to another. They aren't ready to do it just yet though... something isn't ready. (what? *shrug*) Dharma will still need some corporal beings to man the gateway and to bring new beings into the world, or given the likely theology of the group, allow the souls on the "bad" side of the gate to be reborn as dharma children and help them achieve a status that will allow them to become part of the collective. By controlling reproduction, doing indoctrination of the only children on earth, etc, Dharma will eventually move all of humanity into harmony. It's a long-term goal, but it starts with wiping out everything here so that they can seize control.

Koralis: I love it! I don't believe there's a sickness, but could certainly buy the scenario that they want to wipe humanity out and start from scratch. So what's the significance of Aaron and Walt?

Koralis: I love it! I don't believe there's a sickness, but could certainly buy the scenario that they want to wipe humanity out and start from scratch. So what's the significance of Aaron and Walt?

I didn't buy the sickness either, because of the skinner-box idea. "Nah... they're just lying as a way to manipulate Desmond" But then I ran across a link that reminded me about thehansofoundation web site... remember this?

http://www.lostlinks.net/images/hanso9-05b.jpg

It nails down as an outside verification that hanso is involved in a sickness, which they were experimenting on in Africa. After alarming the GHO, hanso buys them off and the alarm goes away. Incidently, note the dates on the letters.

http://www.lostlinks.net/images/hanso10-05.jpg


(aside: Similar to the change in tone of the psychic that insisted that Claire MUST raise the baby alone, then called her to tell her it was ok for her to give the baby up for adoption. I think the psychic was manipulated by hanso.)


Another implied reference lies with the mural... the people on the light side are standing up (alive) and the people on the dark side are lying down (dead.) The people on this page make some interesting mural observations, but some are stretching things. The Sick -> cross-hatch thing is beyond bizarre. Who had an opportunity to change the mural? When did it change? Desmond? Locke??
http://www.cs.iastate.edu/~andorfc/iowa_mural.html




As for Aaron and Walt, I don't think that Walt is going along with the Dharma plan and is trying to undermine them from within, much like Alex did with Claire. However, Walt is probably going to be cut off from the computer-communication, and needs another way to talk to the losties to coordinate. That's where Aaron comes in as the mouthpiece of Walt... somehow they have a connection that lets it happen.

ah nice thread

electromagnetic souls in dharma like limbo

BM,

As I write this...I am in the sunken part of my living room. To the left are six door walls (glass) facing the pool which is surrounded by now bare tall trees facing the lake front...it is dusk...gray and dim light...the wind is blowing causing the trees to cast shadows into the living room...which out of the corner of my eye appear to be "things" moving about the room...I AM FREAKED OUT after reading that transcript...chill bumps are up and down my arms and my hair is standing up on my neck...HOLY CRUD!!!!

After I read the "Hi Sis" line...Bailey's baby monitor picked up her yawning...I jumped out of my chair.

I am alone...so alone..ya...I'll sleep tonight. Think I will go wake Bailey up now.:(

I love this theory.

Baileysdad, your post made me literally LOL! It reminded me of the first night I ever listened to the audio tracks posted by rvt and pen. My husband works nightshift, and I decide this would be a good thing to kill time at 1am (BAD idea.) About 20 seconds into one of the audio files, the shelf in the top of my son's room gave out and there was huge crash in the end of the house where there were no people. I lost my mind! LOL I ran in there to fight ghosts with a huge butcher knife, but I couldn't find them:)

Anyway, I am realy loving this theory also, thanks for posting it! I've seen a lot about EVP on those haunting type shows on Discovery Channel. It does all tie in rather nicely with the electromagnetics!

Jen

I thought I'd weigh in on some bigger-picture plot points if what I've stipulated about the gateway turn out to be true. Basically, Dharma becomes the authority on which spirits get to live on one side or another. In essence, Dharma would be in control of the keys to the jail, the only access across the Berlin wall, or whatever metaphor suits your fancy.

A very nice theory, Koralis. It's the most well thought out and convincing argument i've seen for a collective conciounce/soul theory.

I have 2 questions: How do the whispers fit in? In particular, whispers like "Intruder, Intruder", "hide against the bushes", "hide the scope", "Security Issue", the latest voices heard in the Hatch in One of Them, and aslo the voices found in Smokey's encounter with Eko? none of these particularly strike me as "dead" voices.

Second...what do yo mean by "Aaron becomes the mouthpiece for Walt"?

Honestiy, it's quite an interesting theory. Much more solid than a lot that I've read. Good work!

rvt

A very nice theory, Koralis. It's the most well thought out and convincing argument i've seen for a collective conciounce/soul theory.

I have 2 questions: How do the whispers fit in? In particular, whispers like "Intruder, Intruder", "hide against the bushes", "hide the scope", "Security Issue", the latest voices heard in the Hatch in One of Them, and aslo the voices found in Smokey's encounter with Eko? none of these particularly strike me as "dead" voices.


I haven't reconciled most of the content in the whispers at this point (except the Shannon/Boone thing as I posted in the whispers thread.) Like you say, there are weird combinations of things being said. Another example was expressing dismay about them having a gun... what do spirits care about a gun unless they don't know that they're dead?

Perhaps we're being misled a little by the show? (Knowing that eventually we'd discover this dialog.) Perhaps the whispers are merely indicitive of telepathy/psychic communication and it is being practiced by both spirits and physical beings, rather than just one or the other?




Second...what do yo mean by "Aaron becomes the mouthpiece for Walt"?


Recall that Locke asked Claire what Aaron ment and she didn't know? The name Aaron is biblical. In the story of Exodus, Moses complained to God that he wasn't the guy to present demands to Pharoh... he was timid and could not speak well. He'd just botch the job. To shut Moses up, God sent his brother Aaron to be Moses' "mouthpiece" and do the actual interaction with Pharoh... present their demands, etc.

In other words, it was Aaron actually doing the work but Moses was telling him what to say and do. I suspect the name is foreshadowing in that Aaron is going to be Walt's "mouthpiece" to the losties... Walt will interact with them by using Aaron as a conduit.

It has occured to me that Walt and Aaron might present one of the dualities on the island and this is what allows the conduit... The mural shows a white face (Aaron?) with the living, and a black face (Walt?) with the dead.






Honestiy, it's quite an interesting theory. Much more solid than a lot that I've read. Good work!
rvt


Thank you for the compliment, and thank you for the hard work of decoding the audio.
100%
Something else came to me... why the hatch was named the Swan station. I'd done some research on the Swan constellation after diabolo237 noted that they were all linked. (note: Swan, Arrow, Ophiuchus = medical, and Crater is on Danielle's map)

Originally Posted by diabolo237
There are six constellations of Apollo
1. Cygnus = swan
2. Sagitta = arrow
3. Corvus = crow
4. Crater = goblet
5. Ophiuchus = serpent handler
6. Orion = the hunter


http://www.coldwater.k12.mi.us/lms/planetarium/myth/cygnus.html
Phaethon had a very devoted friend, Cycnus, the Musician-king of the Ligurians. On hearing of Phaeton's fate, Cycnus plunged into the Eridanus and swam back and forth, diving repeatedly to try to find the body of his friend. His motions through the water made him look like a swan searching for food. Apollo took pity on Cycnus, who died of grief, and raised him to stardom, where he became the constellation Cygnus the Swan.

This would further support the idea of the Swan station being the gateway to the netherworld, and Dharma was using the station to search for their dead friends (to extract them.)


I'd already covered this in my previous (but very dead) thread, so thought I may as well repost the information here as further corroboration. Ophiuchus was a healer of such reknown that Hades became angry at the interferance of souls.

http://www.coldwater.k12.mi.us/lms/planetarium/myth/ophiuchus.html

So expert had he become that Hades, God of the Underworld, complained to his brother Zeus that fewer and fewer souls were being sent down to the Underworld. Hades, of course, was worried about losing his important position.

Aesculapius once is said to have brought Hippolytus back to life by "gluing" him back together. Hippolytus had been dragged to death and dismembered when his horses were frightened by a bull. Just as Aesculapius was about to bring the famous hunter, Orion, back to life after he had been accidentally shot with an arrow by his lover, Hades' patience ran out. He demanded that Zeus stop this wholesale restoring of life. After all, only the gods were immortal. If Aesculapius were permitted to increase his skill in bringing the dead back to life, mankind, too, would have attained immortality. Thus went Hades' argument to Zeus.

I haven't reconciled most of the content in the whispers at this point (except the Shannon/Boone thing as I posted in the whispers thread.) Like you say, there are weird combinations of things being said. Another example was expressing dismay about them having a gun... what do spirits care about a gun unless they don't know that they're dead?

Perhaps we're being misled a little by the show? (Knowing that eventually we'd discover this dialog.) Perhaps the whispers are merely indicitive of telepathy/psychic communication and it is being practiced by both spirits and physical beings, rather than just one or the other?

They are quite perplexing sometimes..but you could be onto something with the idea of being both spiritual and physical beings. It very well could be that some of the whispers are of the DHARMA security force. For a long time, I've thought the whispers could be simply radio transmissions being picked up and amplified by the electormagnetic anomolies of that part of the island. Stands to reason, if a portion of the whispers is some bizarre variation of EVP, then it could work with radio broadcasts as well. Further, that could explain the differences in tone of some of the whispers...some sound very human and much like a security patrol. Others comforting or concerned (good souls?) other still sound quite bizarre, and menacing...could be the "bad souls?"

Still not sure how the voices in the Hatch and Henry fit in, but still...it's got legs!

Recall that Locke asked Claire what Aaron ment and she didn't know? The name Aaron is biblical. In the story of Exodus, Moses complained to God that he wasn't the guy to present demands to Pharoh... he was timid and could not speak well. He'd just botch the job. To shut Moses up, God sent his brother Aaron to be Moses' "mouthpiece" and do the actual interaction with Pharoh... present their demands, etc.

In other words, it was Aaron actually doing the work but Moses was telling him what to say and do. I suspect the name is foreshadowing in that Aaron is going to be Walt's "mouthpiece" to the losties... Walt will interact with them by using Aaron as a conduit.

It has occured to me that Walt and Aaron might present one of the dualities on the island and this is what allows the conduit... The mural shows a white face (Aaron?) with the living, and a black face (Walt?) with the dead.

Got it...I see what you're saying now... The tie in with the mural is very interesting too! Very cool. In addition, the black figure is behind the white figure, which would further signify the white figure (Aaron) being the mouthpiece, for the figure in the back. very cool indeed.

rvt

Further, that could explain the differences in tone of some of the whispers...some sound very human and much like a security patrol. Others comforting or concerned (good souls?) other still sound quite bizarre, and menacing...could be the "bad souls?"


You know what I glibly said about {some of} the souls not realizing they were dead? I think that might actually be the key after a little further thought.

One of the books mentioned on the show was Ambrose Bierce's "An Occurance at Owl Creek Bridge." It's the story of a guy in the process of being hung, who has an out-of-body experiance shortly before his consciousness dies.

http://eserver.org/fiction/occurrence-at-owl-creek.html

Doubtless, despite his suffering, he had fallen asleep while walking, for now he sees another scene--perhaps he has merely recovered from a delirium. He stands at the gate of his own home. All is as he left it, and all bright and beautiful in the morning sunshine. He must have traveled the entire night. As he pushes open the gate and passes up the wide white walk, he sees a flutter of female garments; his wife, looking fresh and cool and sweet, steps down from the veranda to meet him. At the bottom of the steps she stands waiting, with a smile of ineffable joy, an attitude of matchless grace and dignity. Ah, how beautiful she is! He springs forward with extended arms. As he is about to clasp her he feels a stunning blow upon the back of the neck; a blinding white light blazes all about him with a sound like the shock of a cannon--then all is darkness and silence!

Peyton Farquhar was dead; his body, with a broken neck, swung gently from side to side beneath the timbers of the Owl Creek bridge




Another book is The Turn of the Screw, in which the governess communicates with the ghosts merely by eye contact ("eye to eye", sound familiar?)

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/screw/themes.html

Throughout The Turn of the Screw, references to eyes and vision emphasize the idea that sight is unreliable.Vision (javascript:ScrollingPopup('http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/screw/terms/theme_4.html', 'a17f29c53a', '500', '500')) and the language used to describe it are particularly important in each of the governess’s encounters with Quint and Miss Jessel. She deems her first meeting with Quint a “bewilderment of vision,” an ambiguous phrase that suggests she imagined what she saw. Characters lock eyes with each other several times in the novella. The governess shares intense gazes with both Quint and Miss Jessel and believes she can determine the ghosts’ intentions by looking into their eyes. Although she and Miss Jessel do not actually talk, the governess claims Miss Jessel’s gaze appears “to say” she has a right to be there. At times, the governess regards the clarity of the children’s eyes as proof that the children are innocent. In these cases, she determines whether the children are capable of deception by looking at their eyes, when it may be her own eyes that deceive her.

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/screw/section8.rhtml

The governess demurs that they are not totally alone, and Miles agrees that there are “the others.” Miles turns to the window.



In Owl Creek Bridge, we're to understand that it happened, or at least he perceived it happening before he died. In the Turn of the Screw, it's left very ambiguous as to whether it happenend or she was just crazy imagining it and other people were just playing along.



Now, lets move onto the Third Policeman. Here's a guy that doesn't realize that he's dead, which is ultimately what I'm getting at.

http://www.necessaryprose.com/obrien.html

That this particular plot of Hell resembles Ireland manages to throw off the novel's narrator to such an extent that he doesn't even know he's already dead.



Lets go back to the whispers... specifically the one with Boone near Shannon's death.

http://www.lostlinks.net/whispers.htm

Dying sucks
Shannon
I don't think you should tell her when she comes
Obviously she likes you
Who's the guy?
I want to see Shannon
Eye to eye



This STRONGLY suggests that some of the dead realize it, but they keep others in the dark about what has actually happened. It could be that the "security force" voices were told by Hanso that they were able to cloak themselves, and talk to each other, but in fact they're dead and just not in on the secret.

rvturnage: I agree that koralis is really onto something. And may I say, many thanks to you for your translation of the whispers and comments interpreting them.

koralis: I note that the original idea was that some of the whispers don't know they're dead. But as I say, I love this notion that Dharma are soul police. What about this?

Let's say the Island's magnetic field preserves the electromagnetic "souls" of those who die there. We know some pretty bad people, including Eko's old pals, have met their demise on the Island.

Let's say the original Dharma scientists are dead too. Their em souls are locked in combat with other "bad" souls on the Island. Maybe the scientists originally lost their lives imprisoning the "bad" souls in the Hatch. Some of the latter have escaped over time.

Dharma now has to bring living bodies (Desmond) to the Island to maintain the countdown, which resets the containment field. They also enlist some of these people to continue their experiments, which may include cloning, with an eventual eye towards reincarnation.

This is why Zeke dresses up as DeGroot. The latter is physically dead (though alive as an em "ghost") and Dharma wants to maintain the illusion it still exists. So one of Dharma's recruits dresses up to look like the guy in the orientation film. My guess is he's Kelvin who "graduated" from the Hatch.

This is also explains the persistence of game metaphors like backgammon. People brought to the Island are basically "pieces" that are manipulated by the two "soul" factions in their conflict.

Bigmouth: You could be right and that it's an organized soul-police squad. However, based on their concerns for hiding, etc, at least some of the rank-and-file don't realize it. The higher-ups certainly would and may be manipulating the underlings.


Yes, having "soul police" to round up the bad eggs that manage to escape and throw them back into jail (ie. through the gateway/eye) would definitely fit the motif. As previously stipulated, I think "the incident" let some bad eggs loose on our world. Dharma can't be happy about that.

I recently discovered that the gateway to the underworld was referred to as the Earth-Eye in sumerian texts which is interesting.

http://www.catshaman.com/13Sumerian/03Sumerian2.htm

The face of Underworld or earth-eye was an important symbol in the Sumerian rituals.

This is the Gateway to Underworld made of clay tom manifest the concept. A writing symbol was a fork downwards and under it an eye. We may suggest even Egypt had a ritual including some ritual with the underworld in focus. That was in the river temple and the Egyptologists seldom tell about them

I found this reference via Locke's crossword puzzle.
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=855865#post855865

Soul police ay?

Hurley needs more batteries so we can get "Karma Police" by Radiohead on the show

:biggrin:

Bigmouth: You could be right and that it's an organized soul-police squad. However, based on their concerns for hiding, etc, at least some of the rank-and-file don't realize it. The higher-ups certainly would and may be manipulating the underlings.[/URL]
koralis: Unless these em "souls" can occupy animals, e.g., Sawyer's boar or Vincent. That could explain why some are afraid of getting seen or shot. I still think it's telling that, when Shannon asked where Walt was, Vincent led her to Boone's grave.

I also wanted to expand a bit upon the "soul police" angle and link it with eschatological speculations. I really think the sun with 108 in the center is a clue (as is the name Alvar Hanso) that the sun is about to do some serious damage to the earth. This is actually true in the real world -- we're about to enter a major period of sunspot activity that could seriously disrupt satellites, power grids, etc..

I don't think Dharma is trying to cause worldwide catastrophe. I think they're waiting for it to happen, at which point they'll reemerge and impose a new world order on humanity's chaotic remnants.

PS: Richard Stone, that's one of my favorite songs!

koralis, I like where your going with this. Great thread and wowsome thinking going on today. From the first time we ever heard the whispers I thought it sounded very familiar to other programs I watch that have EVP, parapsychology and the likes. I love this kind of stuff. Very interesting and thanks for the link to Sumerian Astrology. As a matter of fact if you tune in this Friday on The Travel Channel to "Most Haunted" you'll probably hear, in the background noise's something very interesting. I won't say what so as not to taint anyones idea or conception. Just wanted to share.

ETA: Bigmouth I wish I would have seen this thread back when you started it. I have certain posters I like to try and follow along with, and your one of them.

koralis: Unless these em "souls" can occupy animals, e.g., Sawyer's boar or Vincent. That could explain why some are afraid of getting seen or shot. I still think it's telling that, when Shannon asked where Walt was, Vincent led her to Boone's grave.


Yes, I definitely think they can. One of the whispers definitely implied that one of the souls was controlling the polar bear and that Sawyer's gun wasn't powerful enough to stop it. Another whisper said not to risk it because they couldn't repair that kind of damage.

Lost
Season 1 Episode 2
Pilot, pt. 2
1st Encounter wth Polar Bear

full audio clip (http://www.doorway815.com/lostaudio/pilot2/Pilot-Bear)

1. ?? Right? (5 sec)
2. Wait (6 sec)
3. They're coming (13 sec)
4. Who are they? (http://www.doorway815.com/lostaudio/pilot2/Pilot-who-are-they.mp3) (15 sec)
5. I see something coming get up, get up, get up (http://www.doorway815.com/lostaudio/pilot2/Pilot-something-coming.mp3) (19 sec)
6. Already seen the crash (http://www.doorway815.com/lostaudio/pilot2/Pilot-seen-the-crash.mp3) (23 sec)
7. What's he doing (37 sec)
{Sawyer starts shooting}
8. no way he can stop me, the bullets to weak (http://www.doorway815.com/lostaudio/pilot2/Pilot-bullets-too-deep.mp3) (41 sec)
9. Wait a minute (46 sec)
10. Stay down (http://www.doorway815.com/lostaudio/pilot2/Pilot-stay-down.mp3) (46.5 sec)
11. No, It's no good (52 sec)
12. what do i do (53 sec)
13. Stay ready (56 sec)
14. How'd he sneak a gun (http://www.doorway815.com/lostaudio/pilot2/Pilot-sneak-a-gun.mp3)(1:10)
15. Stranger (http://www.doorway815.com/lostaudio/pilot2/Pilot-stranger.mp3)(slowed down slightly 1:15)
16. you want me to do anything (http://www.doorway815.com/lostaudio/pilot2/Pilot-want-me-to-do-anything.mp3)(1:20 slowed down, behind Kate's voice; can be heard in at begining of clip below)
17. Not yet(1:23)
18. why (1:24)
19. won't be able to repair it (http://www.doorway815.com/lostaudio/pilot2/Pilot-wont-be-able-to.mp3) (1:26)




But you're right... it could be that every time one appears anxious about positioning, being seen, etc, that it's a possession of sorts. I've been more inclined to think that they can manifest themselves as physical which would explain weirdness such as polar bears, a horse on the island, etc, instead of merely native species.



I also wanted to expand a bit upon the "soul police" angle and link it with eschatological speculations. I really think the sun with 108 in the center is a clue (as is the name Alvar Hanso) that the sun is about to do some serious damage to the earth. This is actually true in the real world -- we're about to enter a major period of sunspot activity that could seriously disrupt satellites, power grids, etc..


I'd been saving this for another post, but since you brought it up...

The sun with the 108 in it is odd in one notable respect... the 108 doesn't line up with itself. Both the 1 and the 8 are lower and angled, but the 0 is right smack-dab in the center. The 108 to the lower left is in-line. http://www.cs.iastate.edu/~andorfc/mural1.JPG

So what? Well, it makes me think that the 0 was deliberately placed in the center and that the 1 and the 8 are afterthoughts. So, a circle with another circle inside it...
http://www.wordsources.info/apollo.html

Just to reinforce the idea, there's a second one right above the 42.




I don't think Dharma is trying to cause worldwide catastrophe. I think they're waiting for it to happen, at which point they'll reemerge and impose a new world order on humanity's chaotic remnants.

PS: Richard Stone, that's one of my favorite songs!

I'm still convinced that they're intent on causing it to happen. This is only further reinforced by the fact that just last night I finished watching Season 4 of Alias. Lets just say that there are some serious parrallels between the shows. :)




Btw, I just found and have started reading "Jin's Seoul Gateway Hotel = Soul Gateway? " thread. My appologies to anyone if it looked like I was stealing ideas from people who had posted on it. A lot of what I've posted was also noted by others, even if I hadn't read them. I'll content myself with having come up with the Big Picture plot. :)

after reading only a few posts here, and reading the transcripts for the whispers, i get this creepy feeling, that yes, 1. they are being watched, but it is limited and flawed.
(did he see us) 2. if they are watching, listening, at a limited ability, why?
3. many seem to be surprised at seeing these plane crash victums.
4. any method of visual or auitory monitoring has to have a devise, or a tracable path.
so has or does it leave a signature?
5. there are other suttle things that not many have caught. Kate in the woods with charlie before the kiss, you can hear a horse whining in the back ground.
6. if you watch walkabout, the scene where jack sees his father in the water, very creepy sounds there. i had the speakers on in the living room, kinda loud, and i got goose pumps, thought i heard the monster.
anyway, glad i found this place. cant say enough for everyone who has spent countless hours listening and recording!

after reading only a few posts here, and reading the transcripts for the whispers, i get this creepy feeling, that yes, 1. they are being watched, but it is limited and flawed.
(did he see us) 2. if they are watching, listening, at a limited ability, why?
3. many seem to be surprised at seeing these plane crash victums.
4. any method of visual or auitory monitoring has to have a devise, or a tracable path.
so has or does it leave a signature?
5. there are other suttle things that not many have caught. Kate in the woods with charlie before the kiss, you can hear a horse whining in the back ground.
6. if you watch walkabout, the scene where jack sees his father in the water, very creepy sounds there. i had the speakers on in the living room, kinda loud, and i got goose pumps, thought i heard the monster.
anyway, glad i found this place. cant say enough for everyone who has spent countless hours listening and recording!

Not to hijack this great thread, but Zatherran: you should really check out the whispers & other hidden audio thread (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=38199). There's a nice lonnnng list of scenes we're planning on checking out for hidden voices. it's long, but pretty easy to navigate. The second post is a "index" to the transcripts we have. The 4th and 5th are the lists of scense...You can just skim the posts throughout, and be pretty much up to date.


On topic: Bigmouth funny you mentioning posessing animals... koralis, pointed out one of the transcripts we're working on where voices were hidden in polar bear growls. We've got transcripts on the second polar bear attack as well, although Pen & I have quite different results, and will need to go back and re-work our files and try to figure out why they're so different...Also, while jokes have been made about it on this site, we're pretty confident there's voices hidden in the frog from One of Them as well...it never occured to me that possesion could be an explanation for the voices in the animal scenes, and that the animals possession could be an explanation for the whisperers being concerned with being seen. It does make sense, though.

rvt

Also, while jokes have been made about it on this site, we're pretty confident there's voices hidden in the frog from One of Them as well...it never occured to me that possesion could be an explanation for the voices in the animal scenes, and that the animals possession could be an explanation for the whisperers being concerned with being seen. It does make sense, though.


Aha, I knew it! I speculated to my wife that Sawyer might have been annoyed by the frog because subconciously he was hearing something that was being said in whispers and that's why he was determined to destroy it. He wouldn't know why it was irritating him.

How do we explain the voices in the hatch though, if it's solely possession-based? There's no animals. Unless they took over Jack and that's how the one voice would "protect [his] men"? It certainly seemed like Jack though, so if it's true then it's not "possession" in the traditional sense, but more of a seeing through their eyes and proceeding with suggestion and coaxing.

Perhaps the whisperers can only possess living things, that's how they get around and spy on our Losties. Perhaps when we hear them in the jungle they are occupying bugs and things, they need something alive to see/channel through. It would go some way toward explaining the oddness of voices in the polar bear (or seemingly from bear) and frog...

I guess the black smoke could be their weird organic technological transport, something they made that is both alive and a machine that they can all inhabit and move around in...

Just a thought, hope it made some sense

How do we explain the voices in the hatch though, if it's solely possession-based? There's no animals. Unless they took over Jack and that's how the one voice would "protect [his] men"? It certainly seemed like Jack though, so if it's true then it's not "possession" in the traditional sense, but more of a seeing through their eyes and proceeding with suggestion and coaxing. It doesn't have to be soley possession based. it could be that possessing the animals is so that the whisperers can physically interact with the world.

Wow, some great great great conversations going on in this thread. Ya gotta love it!! It just keeps getting better. Ok having wowed that, I'm just so excited that there is finally some sound theories going on about the possibility of the paranormal.

wow... tried piecing some of this together with the facts the show has given us thus far along with a bit of sci fi imagry and its quite interesting.

1. Island bunkers and whatnot is built in 1970s for various science related projects, amoung them a group that tries to contact the dead in the swan bunker.

2. They do so, although it's basically the opening of pandora's box (sort of like the movie White Noise, some spirits good, some bad)

3. "Incident" insues, things eventually cleaned up, life goes onward with warning system installed on "machine" covered by 8 feet of concrete. (I don't know exactly how the egyptian word for death printed on the countdown clock fits, but it is important).

4. Initiative eventually stops its work and leaves a small crew on the island (what i assume is Kelvin & as yet unseen others). A bit of lather, rinsing, and repeating, and ghosts arrive en masse and permiate the area around the swan bunker (dont remember if weve heard them with the tailies until they meet up with the main group. Anyone know?) This gives us things like the smoke "security system" as well as the sounds of voices in the hatch.

For some reason it sounds alot like Doom3. Maybe dharma built a portal to the underworld?

wow... tried piecing some of this together with the facts the show has given us thus far along with a bit of sci fi imagry and its quite interesting.

1. Island bunkers and whatnot is built in 1970s for various science related projects, amoung them a group that tries to contact the dead in the swan bunker.

2. They do so, although it's basically the opening of pandora's box (sort of like the movie White Noise, some spirits good, some bad)

3. "Incident" insues, things eventually cleaned up, life goes onward with warning system installed on "machine" covered by 8 feet of concrete. (I don't know exactly how the egyptian word for death printed on the countdown clock fits, but it is important).

4. Initiative eventually stops its work and leaves a small crew on the island (what i assume is Kelvin & as yet unseen others). A bit of lather, rinsing, and repeating, and ghosts arrive en masse and permiate the area around the swan bunker (dont remember if weve heard them with the tailies until they meet up with the main group. Anyone know?) This gives us things like the smoke "security system" as well as the sounds of voices in the hatch.

For some reason it sounds alot like Doom3. Maybe dharma built a portal to the underworld?

I like your attempt at some kind of organization groucho. Better than I could do. I'm not out all over the threads promoting this thread but it might answer, or at least be an attemp at answering your #4 question
The Whispers and Other Hidden Audio Clues - The Fuselage#post796631#post796631 (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=796631#post796631)

it's also my favorite thread and very well organized, so you'll appeciate it.

lather, rinse, repeat, good one.:msn-wink: :lol2:

I posted it on another thread, but to keep allt he ideas in one place I'll toss it in here too.


About the countdown... my theory is that it's a deadman's switch with a safety override. Basically, having someone enter the numbers every 108 minutes keeps the gate closed, but allows them the ABILITY to open the gate later (if other numbers are entered perhaps... maybe the mirror image sequence actually opens the gate: 4 8 15 16 23 42 -> 24 32 61 51 8 4) If no one is manning the station, something bad is assumed to have happened and rather than risk someone opening the gate accidently or otherwise the station goes into emergency "permanent" lockdown as a safety precaution.

If the losties don't enter the code I don't think anything personally catastrophic happens, but they'll lose access to the swan station. For the losties, not a huge deal, though I suppose if the Dharma people are intending to use the station to "save the world" then losing it would be pretty devastating.

wow... tried piecing some of this together with the facts the show has given us thus far along with a bit of sci fi imagry and its quite interesting.

1. Island bunkers and whatnot is built in 1970s for various science related projects, amoung them a group that tries to contact the dead in the swan bunker.

2. They do so, although it's basically the opening of pandora's box (sort of like the movie White Noise, some spirits good, some bad)

3. "Incident" insues, things eventually cleaned up, life goes onward with warning system installed on "machine" covered by 8 feet of concrete. (I don't know exactly how the egyptian word for death printed on the countdown clock fits, but it is important).

4. Initiative eventually stops its work and leaves a small crew on the island (what i assume is Kelvin & as yet unseen others). A bit of lather, rinsing, and repeating, and ghosts arrive en masse and permiate the area around the swan bunker (dont remember if weve heard them with the tailies until they meet up with the main group. Anyone know?) This gives us things like the smoke "security system" as well as the sounds of voices in the hatch.

For some reason it sounds alot like Doom3. Maybe dharma built a portal to the underworld?
Very nice. Fits in nicely with Koralis' thoughts. to answer #4: as far as we were shown, the Tailies never heard whispers until they were near the Swan hatch, and Shannon got shot.

As for the egyptian word for "death", or "cause to die"... well, that fits Pandora's Box...by not pushing the timer, the box gets opened again.

We've seen a lot of religious references, of all sorts. This island is probably part of a shared constant of all religions: Death. All religions deal with death, they just differ on what it is that actually comes after death...The island the actual gateway into whatever comes next. Why specifically heiroglyphics though? maybe ancient Egyptian ideas were the closest to the truth in what DHARMA has found out about what comes next.

rvt

Ah, the veil, afterlife, crossing over and so much more of what organized religions perceive as the ultimate after death existence. However, if this could be a path the writers are contemplating to choose, I'm almost 99.9% sure it will not have anything to do with one particular organized religious belief, that we know of, or are aware that exists, but will be a compilation for a new one. Possibly a new one that was started by way of what they, the scientists created/discovered thru there experimentations. They found the gateway, the portal to the other side(s). Life or existence after our life, has left our bodies, has puzzled mankind since time began. It is one of the most researched and holiest of holy in any one religion. What you do with your life while in the physical body and so forth, and it's a prerequisite or an assurance to get you thru the pearly gates, (ah there's that word gate again) so some believe, with every fiber of their being. Your a murderer, cold blooded killer you get executed and your going to hell. Well, you know something like that anyway. Good vs evil, which has been depicted on numerous epis for our mystery hunting enjoyment. It's always going to be there. It's the heart of any good story. You choose the good guy or you choose the bad guy.

I've always found it extremely interesting and I love the possibility that they might be dealing with life after death and the form(s) it takes. It will not be anything I could ever imagine. At least I don't think I could. Hum? Well, to me, so far, this is what we have been seeing in this program. Life going on and surviving and people dyeing and people that have died in one sense or another, be it spiritually or physically.
Just a little pre epi thinking going on with me today. Anyone else?

the other interesting thing about this gost idea is that it explains why the others dont care about the swan hatch and seem to concentrate themselves far away from main group's side of the island. Would explain why tailes were more effected by the others as well as potentially explain Ethan's scout like activities during the first season.

Also i went to the voices post, couldn't hear anything specifically, but the transcripts were enough for me to turn a few lights on.

Just stating the obvious here... the hatch door map mentions one Cerberus. This is interesting on many levels... it's loaded in potential meaning.


The most obvious one is the 3 (or 50?) headed dog that guards the entrance to hell (which of course, is exactly what we've been talking about and speculating on.)

http://www.theoi.com/Ther/KuonKerberos.html

KERBEROS was the fierce watchdog which guarded the house of Haides.
He was depicted as a three-headed dog with a serpent's tail, a mane of snakes, and a lion's claws.
...
"As a twelfth labour Herakles was to fetch Kerberos from Haides' realm. Kerberos had three dog-heads, a serpent for a tail, and along his back the heads of all kinds of snakes." - Apollodorus, The Library 2.122
...
"Typhaon the terrible, outrageous and lawless, was joined in love to her [Ekhidna] ... And next again she bore the unspeakable, unmanageable Kerberos, the savage, the bronze-barking dog of Haides, fifty-headed, and powerful, and without pity." - Hesiod, Theogony 310


So we have the guardian of the gateway to the underworld, who is multi-headed (aka. many-minded) which ties in with the collective-consciousness idea.



Supporting the idea further is the etymology of the root... Cerebrus and cerebrum, cerebellum, etc, seem to share the same "brain" root derivation.
http://www.emory.edu/ANATOMY/AnatomyManual/Etymology.html


And I ran into this little blog entry discussing the philosopher Locke, and how it ties into Cerebrus
http://maverickphilosopher.blogspot.com/2005_01_01_maverickphilosopher_archive.html

Locke, in An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, Book 2, Chapter 27, has quite a bit to say about substances and persons. By ‘a substance’, he means a fundamental entity and he says that, in this sense, there are three kinds of substance: God , finite intelligences [finite spirits], and bodies [atoms]. By ‘a person’, he means ‘a thinking intelligent being that has reason and reflection and can consider itself as itself the same thinking thing in different times and places’ (section 9). He gives an account of the unity of the mental items of a person at a time in terms of introspection and gives an account of the unity of the mental items of a person at different times in terms of memory. He says that just as atoms constitute an organism so long as their joint activity constitutes a life, so a spirit constitutes a person so long as its activity constitutes a consciousness. Same life; same organism. Same consciousness; same person. But he also thinks that just as the same atoms can compose different organisms at different times and different atoms can compose the same organism at different times, so the same spirit can constitute different persons at different times and different spirits can constitute the same person at different times. But there is no reason why, if so, the same spirit cannot constitute more than one person at the same time and more than one spirit cannot constitute the same person at the same time.

...

I think this is a serious objection worthy of response. Here's how I handle it. I deny that the one substance who is God is a divine person. I know it sounds weird, but the creeds don't say God is one person with three persons. They teach that God is one substance with three persons. The personal nature of God is possessed by each person of the Trinity, not the one substance that they share.In their excellent introductory book, Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview, J. P. Moreland and William Lane Craig use the analogy of Cerberus, the mythical three-headed guard dog of Hades. It is possible to imagine that Cerberus has three "persons" or states of consciousness, while constituting only one being. There isn't a need to hypothesize another consciousness that is over the three to maintain the oneness of Cerberus. Likewise, I think orthodox Christians can avoid the infinite regress by denying the need for a "person" behind the three persons of the Trinity.








There are other possibilities and allusions also. It is known that the writers have a great respect for Alan Moore and The Watchmen. There's another comic that Alan Moore wrote From Hell (about Jack the Ripper) which was introduced in another comic entitled Cerebus (apparently about an aardvark??)

http://www.sequart.com/fromhell.htm

[I]Taboo was published intermittently and stopped publication with #7, which featured chapter 6 of From Hell.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebus_the_Aardvark

Minds. Cerebus and Cirin ascend, then are separated by a mysterious force. As Cerebus flies through space, he is shown images from his past and is forced to reconsider his past and his faith. He is then shown Cirin's history, including her original identity as Serna, an assassin. Serna replaced Cirin's sect. Cerebus is shown visions of possible futures between himself and Jaka; none go well for Cerebus.
....
The Last Day. The conclusion of the series. In the first 40 pages Cerebus has a dream or vision in which cosmology is seen as a reflection of theology, complete with explanatory footnotes by Sim. Upon waking Cerebus — now incredibly aged, decrepit and pain-ridden — makes the laborious trek to his writing desk to write down his new revelation. He then hides the manuscript, and it is implied that nobody will find it for two thousand years (a possible homage to I, Claudius in which the dying Claudius does the same thing).

Cerebus spends most of the rest of the book trying to persuade his chief of security, Walter O'Reilly (named after Corporal Walter (Radar) O'Reilly from M A S H) to admit his son, Shep-Shep, with whom he remembers sharing an idyllic father-son relationship. But the Sanctuary is under lockdown due to opposition from a new and even more rabidly "feminist-homosexualist" group — ironically led by Shep-Shep's mother "New Joanne", who actually resembles Jaka in appearance — which favors such "rights" as pedophilia, zoophilia, juvenile recreational drug use and lesbian motherhood. As a result, social values have undergone a complete breakdown.

Cerebus finally goes to bed despairing of seeing his son again, and feeling as if he should say "Rosebud" (an obvious reference to Citizen Kane.) But Shep-Shep — or more correctly, Sheshep — sneaks into Cerebus' room late that night.

Their subsequent conversation shatters Cerebus' last illusions about his son, who is planning to have himself cloned with a lion's body, marry his mother, and rule Egypt as the god Harmaclus.

As he leaves Cerebus grabs a knife, intending to kill him, but falls out of bed and dies of a broken neck — alone, unmourned and unloved, just as the Judge had predicted. His life flashes before his eyes in a series of flashback panels and his ghost sees many of his old friends (and enemies) waiting for him in "the Light". At first he eagerly rushes to join them, thinking they are in Heaven, but then realises that the Light may in fact be Hell. He calls God for help, but is dragged into the Light anyway.



I personally doubt the comic has a a whole lot of bearing, but am including it for completeness. :) The idea that reality is a manifestation of belief however, seems to tie in.

koralis, you're a busy one today. WOW...Good work!! Just a thought. On the podcast Carlton and Damon said this ep, Lockdown, would be a significant one in that we would see more of the"mythology". It seems to me, out of the whole ep, this would be the case.

There is some reason to believe that Desmond may not have survived the blast. He woke up naked instead of clothed as Locke and Eko were ("you can't take it with you.") and the losties on the beach seemed completely oblivious to the half-naked Desmond on the beach twirling around, instead focussing solely on Hurley.

Hurley has seen "invisble friends" before, witness Dave.

People ask ouiji boards about the future, and the spirits are reputed to answer. This implies that ghosts can know the future much like Desmond knew what Locke was going to say.

Some more info at this link:
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1229706&postcount=414


Just because someone is still active on the show doesn't mean that they're not still dead. ;) We've seen a flash of Christian Shepherd on the island with no explaination. We've also seen Dave, whom we are led to believe is a hallucination... maybe not. Maybe Dave was one of the guys that Hurley killed and he's actually been seeing an actual ghost.

Yemi, Boone, Anna Lucia, etc, have appeared in visions... it could just be that the people they are appearing to in those circumstances just aren't receptive to seeing the dead unless in dreams or under the influence of drugs. Others might be under conditions of stress (Jack) etc.

I'm just saying that we should probably be paying attention to just how much interaction Desmond gets in the coming episodes. If we see scenarios where it would be natural to at least acknowlege him and people seem to ignore him, that's a hint that they aren't seeing him like the camera is.

Remember also one of the whisper quotes mentioned "our brothers that help us." It could be attributed to ghosts referencing some of the Others that can see them and do things for them that they can't do themselves.

There is some reason to believe that Desmond may not have survived the blast. He woke up naked instead of clothed as Locke and Eko were ("you can't take it with you.") and the losties on the beach seemed completely oblivious to the half-naked Desmond on the beach twirling around, instead focussing solely on Hurley.

Hurley has seen "invisble friends" before, witness Dave.
koralis: Whoah -- that's a highly provocative possibility I hadn't even considered! And while I'm still not 100% sure Des exhibited precognition (as opposed, say, to reading Locke's mind) your point about the dead seeing the future is very well taken. The near death experience of the psychic's daughter seems connected with precognition...

The analogy that occurred to me was to Phillip Jose Farmer's Riverworld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverworld) series. When characters therein die, they wake up naked. Maybe Des was dead but got resurrected because someone or thing still needs him for something. In the interim, he heard the Chorus of the Dead whispering of the future like Charlotte Malkin.

koralis: Whoah -- that's a highly provocative possibility I hadn't even considered! And while I'm still not 100% sure Des exhibited precognition (as opposed, say, to reading Locke's mind) your point about the dead seeing the future is very well taken. The near death experience of the psychic's daughter seems connected with precognition...

The analogy that occurred to me was to Phillip Jose Farmer's Riverworld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverworld) series. When characters therein die, they wake up naked. Maybe Des was dead but got resurrected because someone or thing still needs him for something. In the interim, he heard the Chorus of the Dead whispering of the future like Charlotte Malkin.


My main problem with the "reading locke's mind" theory is that Desmod spoke of Locke's speech, not of Locke's plan. You don't think that Locke was rehearsing what he was going to say in oratory fashion in his head do you? That doesn't seem Lockey.

Interesting tie in to Riverworld... it could be the allusion that we were looking for. The writers DO like their literary references!

If Desmond did die, I don't think he came back simply because the writers have said that's something they don't want to do. Given that the beach people were ignoring him, I'd suggest that it implies they didn't see him and that he's still dead.

best original, well-thought out supposition ive seen in months... well done

My main problem with the "reading locke's mind" theory is that Desmod spoke of Locke's speech, not of Locke's plan. You don't think that Locke was rehearsing what he was going to say in oratory fashion in his head do you? That doesn't seem Lockey.
koralis: Like I said, you're probably right (see my recent post re zero time (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1232815&postcount=56)). But I do still find it plausible that Des might have read Locke's mind. As one who has given a LOT of speeches, I always practice what I will say and visualize myself giving the speech. Des may have read Locke's mind's eye -- esp. since he never actually witnessed the speech (he was throwing rocks on the beach, as I recall).
Given that the beach people were ignoring him, I'd suggest that it implies they didn't see him and that he's still dead.
That is an excellent point! My main question would be why he manifested with no clothes. Have any of the other manifestations done the same?

Wow!!! I love this theory!!! Um...sorry about copying theory, I had no idea that there was another...But, really, dead people do seem to play an important role in the show...hmmm....Maybe the dead people are the REAL Others....

Time for a resurrection of this theory, given that Cooper seemed convinced that he died. (aka. He was given a seditive as the last conscious thing he remembers and then wakes up on the island)

So Cooper was either
1) abducted (sedative and then moved to the island),
2) wished there in body via "magic box" or
3) he had died and his spirit was conjured there for Locke's resolutions


In case 3, that may tie in with the soul-gateway idea... with the island being at a thin point between life and afterlife.

Discuss.

Time for a resurrection of this theory, given that Cooper seemed convinced that he died. (aka. He was given a seditive as the last conscious thing he remembers and then wakes up on the island)

So Cooper was either
1) abducted (sedative and then moved to the island),
2) wished there in body via "magic box" or
3) he had died and his spirit was conjured there for Locke's resolutions


In case 3, that may tie in with the soul-gateway idea... with the island being at a thin point between life and afterlife.

Discuss.

Indeed, cheers for BM again.

I think the island is like the first circle of hell (like purgatory), but not.
http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=77952

The whispers are souls that have been caught by the island's magnetic field.

The Losties (not sure about everyone else) have had their souls transported to replica bodies.

I dislike the idea, actually, but Cooper's words seem to give this credence.

The time thing though... Is there a time thing? Are they in stasis? In Dante's conception of Hell, time doesn't exist...

I've noticed that many seem to cling to psuedo-scientific reasons for the happenings on the island.

Koralis and Mike: Wow...this is an oldie but goodie -- thanks for the bump! Truth be told, I actually find choice #1 to be the most plausible. Cooper was probably brought to the Island and sedated or placed in an artificial coma while he healed.

BUT...

I have been kicking around two alternative scenarios that dove-tail neatly with this thread. First, what if channeling the Island's energy actually involves forcing the electromagnetic ghosts of the dead to do your bidding? After all, if certain characters can channel the Island's electromagnetism, and that same em field contains the remains of the dead, that's basically what we're describing...

Second, what if the Island reconstructs dead people from your memories like the planet Solaris? Cooper's banging reminded me a lot of the scene from both film versions wherein the Sartorius/Gordon character has a "visitor" (i.e., manifestation of someone from their past) that bangs around behind a locked door...

First, what if channeling the Island's energy actually involves forcing the electromagnetic ghosts of the dead to do your bidding? After all, if certain characters can channel the Island's electromagnetism, and that same em field contains the remains of the dead, that's basically what we're describing...

Are you saying there isn't direct control over anything physical but rather power over the trapped souls? Might Jacob con them as Ben cons the Losties?


Second, what if the Island reconstructs dead people from your memories like the planet Solaris? Cooper's banging reminded me a lot of the scene from both film versions wherein the Sartorius/Gordon character has a "visitor" (i.e., manifestation of someone from their past) that bangs around behind a locked door...

I'm currently loving the reconstruction idea... It would explain the odd health effects (not exactly human--just an approximation). Cooper definitely seemed weird.

My take is that souls/minds (with memory intact) are portable. These are injected into dopplegangers. But they can also be disembodied and trapped in the EM field, or even injected into other physical forms (Yemi's form and Smokey for example).

But why would Ben and the Others or whomever want to inject the memories, souls, etc., into dopplegangers? To help the original people achieve salvation or redemption? Maybe, the bodies that were found were the original bodies of the people on flight 815 and the ones that needed help in a spiritual sense had their souls and memories put into dopplegangers so that they can work things out...that is cool, but it seems a little far-fetched...
100%
Are the Others and the possible other group on, above or below the Island fighting for this group of people's souls?

But why would Ben and the Others or whomever want to inject the memories, souls, etc., into dopplegangers? To help the original people achieve salvation or redemption? Maybe, the bodies that were found were the original bodies of the people on flight 815 and the ones that needed help in a spiritual sense had their souls and memories put into dopplegangers so that they can work things out...that is cool, but it seems a little far-fetched...


I agree it's far-fetched... At least I did until The Brig. No one survives a 70 mph impact into concrete. Sure, he could just be Smokey... but then that's also far-fetched. I much prefer realistic scenarios, but I think we're beyond that point.


Are the Others and the possible other group on, above or below the Island fighting for this group of people's souls?

Sounds an awful lot like purgatory (the first circle)... yet it also sounds like a decent possibility and great catch at this point.

Given the original name of the series, it makes even more sense...

The Circle

Clearly the Others would be on the bad side, if murder is necessary for membership. I wonder if Juliet's murder of whatshisname was her right of passage.

Second, what if the Island reconstructs dead people from your memories like the planet Solaris? Cooper's banging reminded me a lot of the scene from both film versions wherein the Sartorius/Gordon character has a "visitor" (i.e., manifestation of someone from their past) that bangs around behind a locked door...


BM. ive read Solaris recently and it's clearly been part of the inspiration for the island.
i made this post at the queST recently
http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1524583&postcount=727

like you im hovering round the abduction scenario ( with a twist of fate ) for cooper being on the island but its interesting how we've found out that 815 was full of dead bodies and that cooper thinks he died in a car crash in the same epidose...

samsquanch makes a great observation about the missing combs
http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1528684#post1528684

Basically, they would be a great source of DNA to fake the bodies in the (presumably fake) plane in the trench.

If they can make clones, the comb angle would support the Losties being the originals. Why else take the combs from the baggage and fuselage?

Cooper was either healed (via Jacob or some island power) and brought to the island, or his mind/soul was whisked into a clone of Cooper. The hand biting to me is suspicious.

The hand biting to me is suspicious.

Cooper taking a "sample" from Locke? Could you get a valid DNA sample from such an action?

BM. ive read Solaris recently and it's clearly been part of the inspiration for the island.
i made this post at the queST recently
http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1524583&postcount=727...

Re: your Solaris post. Strange coincidence; I read Solaris last month, also viewed the early 1970s Tarkovsky film of the same. It's perhaps a tribute - or a bigger tie-in - that at the end of the film,
Kelvin descends to the planet, finds a (mostly) exact replica of his family's country house, and we find that Kelvin is really ... on an island in the middle of the vast Solaris 'ocean.'

Check out Ben's reincarnation theory:

http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=78311


Dharma, karma, consciousness, Alpert, samsara, The Circle...

Of course reincarnation would be a central tenet of a group related to the Dharma Initiative... It makes me want to bang my head.

Perhaps the Others are looking for reincarnated previous inhabitants as Ben suggested; perhaps they're looking for Jacob in Locke (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=73566) or a kid. The Lamas in Tibet "test" kids when they're looking for the next incarnation of the Dali Lama. Jacob may be physically dead but they may be expecting him to be reincarnated.

Again, it ties back to the portability of souls. The show might be giving some technological teeth to old theories of souls, rebirth, and illusory vessels for the soul (bodies).
100%
Cooper taking a "sample" from Locke? Could you get a valid DNA sample from such an action?

Sounds good, but... I imagine it was more a reaction to being disoriented.

Mike and Junie: My instinct is similar to Junie's -- what would be the point of injecting those memories? I am, however, down with a reincarnation scenario, which I'll return to in a moment.

BL: I'm so glad you read the book! Have you seen the Tarkovsky film? Lem wasn't such a fan, but apparently the writers of Lost are. Perhaps that's because Tarkovsky basically made Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment in space. As Stefanie notes, the ending (which is very different from the book's) has some interesting implications for the show.

Mike and HV: LOL -- I love this notion that the bite was to extract DNA! It's funny how things come back around. From my very first post (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=879) on the fuselage:
Any significance[to the missing hairbrushes]? My friends insist that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I say you guys are too smart for that. I also think a hairbrush would be a great place to obtain genetic samples...except for Locke, obviously.
Stefanie: Strongly agree, though you might want to spoiler font the ending of Solaris. Anyway, how cool would it be if the last scene of the season finale has Jack kneeling down before Christian?

Mike: Great link -- I will comment there shortly. Koralis and I have kicked around the notion that the Others are "Soul" police of some kind -- here's how koralis put it:
Ok, so Dharma has a goal of a worldwide collective utopian society. A pipe dream, right? Not everyone is going to play along... it can't work because the individualists are going to prey upon the community. It's exactly the reason that communism can't work and Dharma knows it, but has a cunning plan.

They've discovered proof positive of an afterlife. Souls linger on past physical death, and they discover the Soul Gateway. A plan forms... "kill them all and let Dharma sort them out." Those souls that will be compatible with the collective can stay on one side of the gateway (the "good" souls that are on The List), everyone else stays on the other side. they will have achieved their utopian ideal society.

So, Dharma develops a plague that they intend to unleash on the world. As far as they're concerned it's not "killing" anyone really... they're just moving people from one reality phase-state to another. They aren't ready to do it just yet though... something isn't ready. (what? *shrug*) Dharma will still need some corporal beings to man the gateway and to bring new beings into the world, or given the likely theology of the group, allow the souls on the "bad" side of the gate to be reborn as dharma children and help them achieve a status that will allow them to become part of the collective. By controlling reproduction, doing indoctrination of the only children on earth, etc, Dharma will eventually move all of humanity into harmony. It's a long-term goal, but it starts with wiping out everything here so that they can seize control.
A related thought I had recently: what if the Swan shield was designed to PREVENT reincarnation, thereby slowing humanity's spiritual evolution? Perhaps the conception problems on the Island are the result of these backlogged souls trying to cram their way into available bodies...

A related thought I had recently: what if the Swan shield was designed to PREVENT reincarnation, thereby slowing humanity's spiritual evolution? Perhaps the conception problems on the Island are the result of these backlogged souls trying to cram their way into available bodies...

This seems as viable as preventing fetal development. Actually, doing that would achieve both ends. But whatever the means, the motivation (a weapon to contain the Others' power) seems right. I guess we'll find out if Sun makes it through her 2nd trimester.

Also, if that were the case, and Jacob were waiting for a vessel, wouldn't he have popped into a vessel by now? (Or is John about to be possessed? "Yes, just right through that door John.. hang a left... no no.. we'll wait out here...";)).

Also, if that were the case, and Jacob were waiting for a vessel, wouldn't he have popped into a vessel by now? (Or is John about to be possessed? "Yes, just right through that door John.. hang a left... no no.. we'll wait out here...";)).
Mike: Maybe He has -- ever wonder why Aaron kicked a few days after the crash? What if the real Aaron died and Jacob's soul took his place?

Mike: Maybe He has -- ever wonder why Aaron kicked a few days after the crash? What if the real Aaron died and Jacob's soul took his place?

Ooooh...

I guess that would assume Jacob is (or rather was) among the trapped souls on the island... that would make sense if he previously died there.

How long have they been waiting for him?


And what of the Losties? Were the bodies in the trench just cloned tissue? Or are we back to a spacetime bubble?

Stefanie: Strongly agree, though you might want to spoiler font the ending of Solaris. Anyway, how cool would it be if the last scene of the season finale has Jack kneeling down before Christian?

Sorry, wasn't thinking. Fixed.

You know, when I read your words, they seemed like such a *powerful* way to end the story. That would really be beautiful. It would be like everyone's broken relationship with their own fathers would be concentrated into that one gesture. Great thought.

A related thought I had recently: what if the Swan shield was designed to PREVENT reincarnation, thereby slowing humanity's spiritual evolution? Perhaps the conception problems on the Island are the result of these backlogged souls trying to cram their way into available bodies...

That is a phenomenal idea. I like very much!

Are you familiar with the "Well of Souls" idea in Jewish and Islamic tradition? This relates to the "axis mundi" idea that BlackLotus has brought up elsewhere. Under the Temple Mount in Jerusalem there was said to be the Well of Souls - the point where the supernatural world intersected ours. Through the Well of Souls came those souls destined to be reborn into human bodies.

According to an article I read a long time ago in Biblical Archaeology Review, the folklore was that if you listened carefully inside the Temple, you could actually hear the souls "whispering" as they entered our world. Interestingly, Mel Gibson alludes to that in his movie The Passion of the Christ, when Mary is in the outer court of the Temple and puts her ear to a crack in the stone floor, and you briefly hear this odd whispering sound effect.

So it may be that The Others are indeed not living in harmony with The Island - because they're *preventing it* from being such a focal point between our world and Elsewhere.

But in different situations the subjects need to be poked differently. For instance, maybe the scared Shannon first to lead to her death and then felt guilty for needing to kill her so they comforted her in her dying moments.

Right now, it is a very reasonable deduction to say that all the voices, including Frank Duckett, are from dead people, however, we don't know if it's really the dead people speaking or why they would be or why their voices would be utilized.

I think next week's episode will shed light on this theory as:

In the preview Kate asks, "Do you believe in ghosts?" Perhaps she hears the whispers.

This is great discussion, and I agree that the whispers are important and spooky. :) I don't think that we can reasonably deduct that all the voices are of dead people however. There are some hints, like Frank and "sis", that some of them could be but nothing conclusive to tell us that all of them are.

It's the "did they see us?" questions the Whispers seem to ask, that make me curious. I don't think they could be dead if they are sometimes visible.

It's the "did they see us?" questions the Whispers seem to ask, that make me curious. I don't think they could be dead if they are sometimes visible.


If we're lucky... Maybe next week we'll see one of them make its way into baby Ben. :)

You know, when I read your words, they seemed like such a *powerful* way to end the story.
Stefanie: Or how about this as the much rumored "snake in the mailbox"?
Are you familiar with the "Well of Souls" idea in Jewish and Islamic tradition? This relates to the "axis mundi" idea that BlackLotus has brought up elsewhere. Under the Temple Mount in Jerusalem there was said to be the Well of Souls - the point where the supernatural world intersected ours. Through the Well of Souls came those souls destined to be reborn into human bodies.

According to an article I read a long time ago in Biblical Archaeology Review, the folklore was that if you listened carefully inside the Temple, you could actually hear the souls "whispering" as they entered our world.
Verrrry interesting! A related, more sinister possibility (they are, after all, in hell) is that these particular souls were very bad people who were IMPRISONED in the Island's electromagnetic field. Maybe Dharma unleashed them somehow and the Swan shield was supposed to prevent them from reincarnating.
This is great discussion, and I agree that the whispers are important and spooky. :) I don't think that we can reasonably deduct that all the voices are of dead people however. There are some hints, like Frank and "sis", that some of them could be but nothing conclusive to tell us that all of them are.
Desmundo: Oh, I quite agree. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that some of these "dead" voices (e.g., Frank Duckett's) are reflections of our Losties' (e.g., Sawyer's) minds.
It's the "did they see us?" questions the Whispers seem to ask, that make me curious. I don't think they could be dead if they are sometimes visible.
Again, I quite agree. One possibility that occurs to me is that they now possess animals, though some of the whispers refer to Sawyer's boar at one point, which casts doubt on that possibility. Another possibility is that they're poltergeists of some kind, who don't realize they're dead. Finally, they could be astral projections like Walt -- some posters claim to see ghostly images of faces in various screencaps. I'm personally skeptical but it would explain the whispers...
If we're lucky... Maybe next week we'll see one of them make its way into baby Ben. :)
Hmmm...do you suppose Benjamin Linus escape the prison of reincarnation, setting all of this in motion?

BL: I'm so glad you read the book! Have you seen the Tarkovsky film? Lem wasn't such a fan, but apparently the writers of Lost are. Perhaps that's because Tarkovsky basically made Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment in space. As Stefanie notes, the ending (which is very different from the book's) has some interesting implications for the show.



bm: haven't seen either film but i've heard that the Tarkovsky one is interesting. i loved the book, very thought provoking although the translation made it a bit stilted to begin with.

walt aside, most of the manifestations are of people that are already dead, so the idea that the island may be able to bring dead people over from the other side ( or recreate them ) to whisper or manifest is pretty plausible. If cooper really was dead then he could fall into this category too.
it could even give some insight at the other's apparent double standards about killing cooper if they knew he was already dead.

im sure you've come across this before, but i havent seen it mentioned in this thread, electronic voice phenomena is my favorite explanation for the whispers ( whether it be angels or dead people :))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon

Stefanie: Or how about this as the much rumored "snake in the mailbox"?

Verrrry interesting! A related, more sinister possibility (they are, after all, in hell) is that these particular souls were very bad people who were IMPRISONED in the Island's electromagnetic field. Maybe Dharma unleashed them somehow and the Swan shield was supposed to prevent them from reincarnating.

LOST crossover with Superman - The Island as Phantom Zone. Interesting. People were always letting the Krypton criminals out, setting them free to pillage and otherwise cause trouble.

I didn't know the producers of LOST liked Tarkovsky's Solaris. That's pretty cool.

Verrrry interesting! A related, more sinister possibility (they are, after all, in hell) is that these particular souls were very bad people who were IMPRISONED in the Island's electromagnetic field. Maybe Dharma unleashed them somehow and the Swan shield was supposed to prevent them from reincarnating.


Hmm... I like it. However, Ben's group has been there a lot longer than Dharma has apparently. Were they trying to figure out how to bridge the gap previously, and just been unable? Ben's group is a cult which worships these souls and works toward their resurrection?

Either way, it would certainly explain why Ben was trying to convince Locke to stop pushing a button.




Hmmm...do you suppose Benjamin Linus escape the prison of reincarnation, setting all of this in motion?

Ben's statement that he's always lived on the island would have some interesting ramifications if he was referring to several lifetimes.



Btw, with regards to my original bump of the thread... like you, I'm pretty sure that Cooper was mechanically abducted and brought to the island under sedation. Why? The best answer I have is this:

1) The Others have a prophecy about the coming of one with the broken back who was made to walk by the island. He will lead them to glory.

2) Ben finds out about Locke being on the island, finds his backstory, and begins to prepare to undermine him. Ben brings Cooper to the island to show up Locke as not being worthy of being followed whent he time is right.

3) Ben plays the role of the Grand Inquisitor (from The Brothers Kharamazov, the book Locke lent to Ben in the swan station) who will ultimately kill the prophet (Jesus/Locke), knowing full well who it is, because the prophet will undermine the authority of the church (Ben.) Ben can't kill him now because his people believe... first Ben needs to convince them that Locke isn't the prophet, hence Cooper.

I agree it's far-fetched... At least I did until The Brig. No one survives a 70 mph impact into concrete. Sure, he could just be Smokey... but then that's also far-fetched. I much prefer realistic scenarios, but I think we're beyond that point.Sounds an awful lot like purgatory (the first circle)... yet it also sounds like a decent possibility and great catch at this point.Given the original name of the series, it makes even more sense...The CircleClearly the Others would be on the bad side, if murder is necessary for membership. I wonder if Juliet's murder of whatshisname was her right of passage.Well, MikeNY, I wouldn't be surprised to find out something like this is going on. I like what you said in your spoilerfonted section about Juliet's branding, although some people have said that it might have been done just to help her gain Jack's sympathy - and aloe! ;)

samsquanch makes a great observation about the missing combshttp://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1528684#post1528684
Basically, they would be a great source of DNA to fake the bodies in the (presumably fake) plane in the trench.If they can make clones, the comb angle would support the Losties being the originals. Why else take the combs from the baggage and fuselage?
Cooper was either healed (via Jacob or some island power) and brought to the island, or his mind/soul was whisked into a clone of Cooper. The hand biting to me is suspicious.That's right! Locke has no hair! Unless it didn't matter which passengers they cloned as long as they cloned enough to have a decent amount of "dead bodies" still in the water when the "wreckage" was found? I know it would take a longer time that it seems the Others' had to clone the people on the plane, but well, who knows? The fact that they could be cloning anyone is a little far-fetched, too!

Speaking of Cooper, I know that some people are wondering why he had a southern accent when he spoke to Sawyer and not when he spoke to Locke (on the Island). I actually, for once, didn't get too suspicious over the whys behind that...I thought that by the time that he and Sawyer were talking, he had let his guard down and there was no more need for any pretenses. Cooper was possibly from the south and talking in a southern accent was how he really talked. He just never talked that way in front of Locke so that he could keep some things about his true identity to himself...possibly? That being said, the idea that the Cooper that we saw was some kind of man-made or Smokey-made image that spoke with a southern accent to Sawyer because that's how Sawyer/James "knew" him was interesting to me, too...

Cooper taking a "sample" from Locke? Could you get a valid DNA sample from such an action?Interesting...and...OUCH!

Check out Ben's reincarnation theory: http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=78311
Dharma, karma, consciousness, Alpert, samsara, The Circle...Of course reincarnation would be a central tenet of a group related to the Dharma Initiative... It makes me want to bang my head.Perhaps the Others are looking for reincarnated previous inhabitants as Ben suggested; perhaps they're looking for Jacob in Locke (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=73566) or a kid. The Lamas in Tibet "test" kids when they're looking for the next incarnation of the Dali Lama. Jacob may be physically dead but they may be expecting him to be reincarnated.Again, it ties back to the portability of souls. The show might be giving some technological teeth to old theories of souls, rebirth, and illusory vessels for the soul (bodies).
100%Sounds good, but... I imagine it was more a reaction to being disoriented.That would definitely be bizarre if the Others (perhaps through the DI's work) fouond a way to reincarnate themselves...and with each reincarnation, comes enlightenment of some kind? Special abilities, possibly? That might explain why Patchy said, "Thank you!" to Locke when Locke pushed him into the electric fence...

Ooooh...I guess that would assume Jacob is (or rather was) among the trapped souls on the island... that would make sense if he previously died there.How long have they been waiting for him?And what of the Losties? Were the bodies in the trench just cloned tissue? Or are we back to a spacetime bubble?I posted a few times in a few different threads last week that I thought that Locke is Jacob and in the timeline that we are privy to currently, he is about to be reborn into Jacob. The lower-lever Others obviously (or so it seems to be) think that he's special, but whatever it is that the Others think about Locke, he doesn't know about. He almost seems to feel silly when he and Ben talk about Locke being special, but I think that he really wants it to be true. I think that Ben wants Locke to become Jacob so that Ben can usurp some of his new power. On the other-hand, when Ben told Locke that he was getting better quicker by "hanging out" with Locke, I got suspicious. Jack saw Ben's tumor, so there was something there on his spine, but was it even as harmful as it looked? Or, is Locke really able to heal people, including Ben, just like Jacob can? I find the similarity kind of cool...that Jacob and Locke can supposedly heal people. By the way, what are the examples that we have of Jacob healing people? Rachel, Juliet's sister, never got sick again, IMHO. I think that that was just another one of Ben's tricks to con Juliet. Who else, though?


Hmm... I like it. However, Ben's group has been there a lot longer than Dharma has apparently. Were they trying to figure out how to bridge the gap previously, and just been unable? Ben's group is a cult which worships these souls and works toward their resurrection?Either way, it would certainly explain why Ben was trying to convince Locke to stop pushing a button.Ben's statement that he's always lived on the island would have some interesting ramifications if he was referring to several lifetimes.Btw, with regards to my original bump of the thread... like you, I'm pretty sure that Cooper was mechanically abducted and brought to the island under sedation.
Koralis: But how long has Ben really been on the Island? And, in his case, was he "born" on the Island or "reborn" on the Island (kind of like how Locke is seemingly being reborn on the Island)? My gut reaction is that the real Cooper was brought to the Island the exact same way that he descirbed. I don't think, if I had to bet my two cents right now, that that was a "Fake Cooper"...


Why? The best answer I have is this:1) The Others have a prophecy about the coming of one with the broken back who was made to walk by the island. He will lead them to glory.What does Ben want out of this situation, though? I can't help but think there's something in it for him if things go according to his plan? How does whatever Ben might have told the Others about Locke's "specialness" play into what Ben really knows about Locke, the other Losties and what the heck is going on on the Island?

2) Ben finds out about Locke being on the island, finds his backstory, and begins to prepare to undermine him. Ben brings Cooper to the island to show up Locke as not being worthy of being followed whent he time is right.Is Ben really trying to undermine Locke because he knows that Locke is potentially more powerful than him and even though he's naive and goofy now, Locke could takeover Otherville if he had more knowledge, power and people on his side?

3) Ben plays the role of the Grand Inquisitor (from The Brothers Kharamazov, the book Locke lent to Ben in the swan station) who will ultimately kill the prophet (Jesus/Locke), knowing full well who it is, because the prophet will undermine the authority of the church (Ben.) Ben can't kill him now because his people believe... first Ben needs to convince them that Locke isn't the prophet, hence Cooper.I think that Locke will end up the new leader of the Others and that it won't end pretty for him...whenever that is...hopefully not for awhile for Locke...TOQ is great!
100%
ETA: I just had a thought: Maybe, Ben wants to transfer his mind and soul into Locke's body and somehow keep Locke's "special connection" to the Island?

Wow! This show has made me a Super Geek!

bm: haven't seen either film but i've heard that the Tarkovsky one is interesting. i loved the book, very thought provoking although the translation made it a bit stilted to begin with.
BL: In a nutshell, the Tarkovsky version is more faithful to the plot of the book but not its themes. The remake (which I actually prefer) is more faithful to the themes of the book but not its plot. Anyway, I actually have a theory that Lost is basically a mash-up of Solaris and another Tarkovsky film called Stalker, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalker) which is based on a short story called Roadside Picnic. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadside_Picnic)
LOST crossover with Superman - The Island as Phantom Zone. Interesting. People were always letting the Krypton criminals out, setting them free to pillage and otherwise cause trouble.
stefanie: He is General Zod! Actually, in all seriousness, the phantom zone strikes me as an excellent analogy and Terry Stamp would frankly make an excellent Jacob...
Hmm... I like it. However, Ben's group has been there a lot longer than Dharma has apparently. Were they trying to figure out how to bridge the gap previously, and just been unable? Ben's group is a cult which worships these souls and works toward their resurrection?
koralis: Are we sure about that? Consider the symbolism of the names Adam and Eve. That suggests to me they were the first to visit the Island in a long time -- at least since the Black Rock. Here's my speculation based on recent spoilers:
Ben was conceived on the Island but his parents somehow escaped and he was born outside Portland, where an Island portal is located. The DeGroots find baby Ben by the road and raise him, eventually realizing that he's special. Curious about his mysterious origins, they return to the spot where they found Ben and find the portal to the Island.
Ben's statement that he's always lived on the island would have some interesting ramifications if he was referring to several lifetimes.
Agreed -- great point!
Btw, with regards to my original bump of the thread... like you, I'm pretty sure that Cooper was mechanically abducted and brought to the island under sedation. Why? The best answer I have is this:

1) The Others have a prophecy about the coming of one with the broken back who was made to walk by the island. He will lead them to glory.

2) Ben finds out about Locke being on the island, finds his backstory, and begins to prepare to undermine him. Ben brings Cooper to the island to show up Locke as not being worthy of being followed whent he time is right.

3) Ben plays the role of the Grand Inquisitor (from The Brothers Kharamazov, the book Locke lent to Ben in the swan station) who will ultimately kill the prophet (Jesus/Locke), knowing full well who it is, because the prophet will undermine the authority of the church (Ben.) Ben can't kill him now because his people believe... first Ben needs to convince them that Locke isn't the prophet, hence Cooper.
Ben tried to taint the prophet, eh? I like that, I like that a LOT! Admittedly, I'm always a tad skeptical of theories that make Locke out to be special. Remember, Ben manipulates people by exploiting what they want most, and Locke will do anything to feel special. But I think you've nailed the manipulation aspect -- Ben is using Locke's desire to be special to PREVENT the latter from truly being special. So what does this prophecy entail? My guess is it's foretold that the man who heals himself will oversee the reincarnated Messiah's christening and spiritual development...
Speaking of Cooper, I know that some people are wondering why he had a southern accent when he spoke to Sawyer and not when he spoke to Locke (on the Island). I actually, for once, didn't get too suspicious over the whys behind that...I thought that by the time that he and Sawyer were talking, he had let his guard down and there was no more need for any pretenses. Cooper was possibly from the south and talking in a southern accent was how he really talked. He just never talked that way in front of Locke so that he could keep some things about his true identity to himself...possibly? That being said, the idea that the Cooper that we saw was some kind of man-made or Smokey-made image that spoke with a southern accent to Sawyer because that's how Sawyer/James "knew" him was interesting to me, too...
Junie: LOL -- geek power! I thought the accent thing, which Mang pointed out to me, as well, is a very interesting catch. I, too, am intrigued by speculations that the accent was because that's how Sawyer remembered him. Do we know for sure that Sawyer ever met Cooper? He might have just put two and two together from the names, locations, etc....
Interesting...and...OUCH!
Yes, though, the more I think about it, couldn't the Others have just asked Locke for a sample? I'm sure he would have complied. I'm thinking more and more that this was to clarify that the encounter with Cooper was tangible and not some Island vision...
That would definitely be bizarre if the Others (perhaps through the DI's work) fouond a way to reincarnate themselves...and with each reincarnation, comes enlightenment of some kind? Special abilities, possibly?
That's a distinct possibility!
Is Ben really trying to undermine Locke because he knows that Locke is potentially more powerful than him and even though he's naive and goofy now, Locke could takeover Otherville if he had more knowledge, power and people on his side?
I think that's right. Let's assume the Others are charged with watching over the special kids. Maybe there's a prophecy involving one special kid who will be mentored by one special guy. Maybe Ben wants to be that guy (or at least control him) which is why he's so intent on preventing Locke from fulfilling the prophecy...

Ben tried to taint the prophet, eh? I like that, I like that a LOT! Admittedly,
I'm always a tad skeptical of theories that make Locke out to be special. Remember,
Ben manipulates people by exploiting what they want most, and Locke will do anything to feel special. But I think you've nailed the manipulation aspect -- Ben is using Locke's desire to be special to PREVENT the latter from truly being special. So
what does this prophecy entail? My guess is it's foretold that the man who heals
himself will oversee the reincarnated Messiah's christening and spiritual
development...I like that, especially the last part. For some reason, it made me think that whomever the Others think that Locke is supposed to be or become, might make him the real Jacob's "caretaker". I'm kind of partial to the idea that Locke is supposed to become Jacob (and is Jacob already in another timeline...or something...I'm new at this "Geek Stuff"), but I'd like it if he became Jacob's #1 helper...

I like that, especially the last part. For some reason, it made me think that whomever the Others think that Locke is supposed to be or become, might make him the real Jacob's "caretaker". I'm kind of partial to the idea that Locke is supposed to become Jacob (and is Jacob already in another timeline...or something...I'm new at this "Geek Stuff"), but I'd like it if he became Jacob's #1 helper...
Holy crap, that's brilliant, Junie! Locke will preside over Jacob's reincarnation...

Holy crap, that's brilliant, Junie! Locke will preside over Jacob's reincarnation...

I almost forgot about it, but poking around on my bookshelves I came across an old favorite: Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light). A great book, and one that has so many elements of the reincarnation phenomenon, as well as identity issues for its hero!

Holy crap, that's brilliant, Junie! Locke will preside over Jacob's reincarnation...Thanks, BM! :redface: After reading HV's link for Lord of Light, I wonder (providing what we're talking about happens on the Island) if everyone in the Others' community is given the chance (or the Choice) to be reincarnated?

I almost forgot about it, but poking around on my bookshelves I came across an old favorite: Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light). A great book, and one that has so many elements of the reincarnation phenomenon, as well as identity issues for its hero!Cool similarities between L of L and LOST...

Cool similarities between L of L and LOST...

From the wiki page on Lord of Light (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light):

A juvenile scientific genius, he was mortally injured in an explosion, so that he had to be quickly reincarnated into the first available body, which happened to be middle-aged. He was "old before he was young", and did not have the same outlook as someone who has "known first love in the days of spring". As a result he is the cold, calculating master of arms and sciences

Wow, what if this was Ben? A child at the time of the "incident", who got dumped into an older body... "Born" on the island, but not born there.
100%
Continuing along the "if Ben is Yama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yama_%28Hinduism%29)" line of thinking:

Yama is the Guardian of the South (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardians_of_the_directions) who weilds a "danda" or stick...

Yama can be loosely related to the Greek deity Hades or Pluto, the god of the underworld.

ETA: Chitragupta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitragupta), who worked with Yama is the "recorder" of the dead. Brahma said of him:

Thou hast been conceived in my mind (Chitra) and in secrecy (gupta), thy name shall also be Chitragupta.

Secrets of the mind, eh? I think this is Smokey!

I thought you might be interested in this answer from Gregg Nations regarding the whispers (or lack thereof) this season, considering your discussion of them in this thread.

Gregg was asked about the fact that plenty of losties have been wandering around the jungle this season and no one has encountered any whispers.

Gregg's Response: That is curious the whispers haven't been around. Hmmm... What could that mean?


Which I take to mean
Something to do with the hatch implosion is preventing the whispers from being heard

Gregg was asked about the fact that plenty of losties have been wandering around the jungle this season and no one has encountered any whispers.

Gregg's Response: That is curious the whispers haven't been around. Hmmm... What could that mean?


Which I take to mean
Something to do with the hatch implosion is preventing the whispers from being heard

Or (worse?)... set free.

I absolutely love where this is going!

The Swan being the thumb in the dike trapped souls... Scary...

Why would releasing them mean the end of the world?
100%
Junie -- I love your comments... I'm too mentally taxed right now though to do them justice.

Steff: Thanks for sharing that Gregg information. Is he hinting at what the Swan Hatch really does/did? What is/was it's real purpose? If it has prevented the Whisperers from whispering, what does that imply or how does that affect the Losties? If keeping the Swan Hatch going kept the Whisperers whispering, it seems like it was also keeping them able to see what they were whispering about, which is the Losties and the Others. From what I can tell, the Whisperers always seemed to be able to see what was going on on the Island, but, possibly, they can't anymore. Where are they? The Whispers never seemed too hostile, but almost torn and somewhat confused, like they wanted to help the Losties, but they couldn't expose themselves (so to speak). They can see the Losties, but the Losties couldn't see them. So many possibilities, so...many...questions...are the Whisperers dead people stuck on the Island? Are they from the future and are somehow looking back at that Losties because they want to make sure that something does or doesn't happen, but they aren't supposed to interfere?

Too much caffeine for me today...:eek2: :eek2: :eek2:

My gut reaction is that the real Cooper was brought to the Island the exact same way that he descirbed. I don't think, if I had to bet my two cents right now, that that was a "Fake Cooper"...


Well, he described dying and waking up in Hell. :) But yes, I don't think he was lying, and I don't think that was a fake cooper. I think that Ben drugged and abducted him to use against Locke.



What does Ben want out of this situation, though? I can't help but think there's something in it for him if things go according to his plan? How does whatever Ben might have told the Others about Locke's "specialness" play into what Ben really knows about Locke, the other Losties and what the heck is going on on the Island?


Ben's been probably telling them that he'd find their prophet, etc, if they let him lead. Now that the prophet is here... well, that's bad for Ben.


Is Ben really trying to undermine Locke because he knows that Locke is potentially more powerful than him and even though he's naive and goofy now, Locke could takeover Otherville if he had more knowledge, power and people on his side?


That's my impression, yes. Not just more powerful, but "favored" by God (or the island, jacob, whathaveyou.) The people want to believe, and if they do then Ben's power base erodes.. you saw how freaked he was getting about people asking to leave on the sub in the other episode... his hands were tied because if he told them they couldn't leave that there'd be a revolt.

If it came down to chosing between Locke and Ben, the Others would side with Locke.



I think that Locke will end up the new leader of the Others and that it won't end pretty for him...whenever that is...hopefully not for awhile for Locke...TOQ is great!


That's my guess too. That eventually Ben will be outwitted and out-manipulated, and get his long-deserved comeuppance.
100%
Lord of Light is one of my all-time favorites. It was the book I thought about when doing the Lost Experience game and learning about Master Joop, the 105 year old orangutang. Serial reincarnation.

The Whispers never seemed too hostile, but almost torn and somewhat confused, like they wanted to help the Losties, but they couldn't expose themselves (so to speak). They can see the Losties, but the Losties couldn't see them. So many possibilities, so...many...questions...are the Whisperers dead people stuck on the Island? Are they from the future and are somehow looking back at that Losties because they want to make sure that something does or doesn't happen, but they aren't supposed to interfere?

Hm, maybe wherever Ben is taking Locke is to the area used for remote viewing, could be where the people who we hear whispering are/were.

From what I can tell, the Whisperers always seemed to be able to see what was going on on the Island, but, possibly, they can't anymore. Where are they? The Whispers never seemed too hostile, but almost torn and somewhat confused, like they wanted to help the Losties, but they couldn't expose themselves (so to speak). They can see the Losties, but the Losties couldn't see them. So many possibilities, so...many...questions...

Juniebun - I agree with what you said (especially about so many questions:biggrin: ). I always thought the whisperers were watching everything that was going on with the Losties. Almost like they were watching a TV show and commenting on it with each other. It never seemed as if they were trying to speak to the Losties or give them direction, just more them making observations amongst themselves. Whether these whisperers are dead/trapped souls or actual people observing the events (via remote viewing or some other paranormal activity) - I'm torn. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I almost forgot about it, but poking around on my bookshelves I came across an old favorite: Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light). A great book, and one that has so many elements of the reincarnation phenomenon, as well as identity issues for its hero!
HV: Hmmm...I'm familiar with Zelazny but not this particular work. Seems most intriguing -- is it still in print?
Wow, what if this was Ben? A child at the time of the "incident", who got dumped into an older body... "Born" on the island, but not born there.
That is a very cool possibility! I wonder if certain people adept at astral projection can transcend death by leaping into new bodies. BTW, have you read Extinction or Evolution? All that said, we shouldn't forget that Ben's physical age means he was only a boy when Dharma began. Unless the Island retards aging, I'm inclined to think that Ben has always occupied the same physical form. Maybe he was referring to his identity as Ben? Or maybe there WAS a Ben Linus (son of Roger?) who was indeed born on the Island...
Secrets of the mind, eh? I think this is Smokey!
Agreed -- love the part about the "recorder" of the dead!
I thought you might be interested in this answer from Gregg Nations regarding the whispers (or lack thereof) this season, considering your discussion of them in this thread.

Gregg was asked about the fact that plenty of losties have been wandering around the jungle this season and no one has encountered any whispers.
Gregg's Response: That is curious the whispers haven't been around. Hmmm... What could that mean?
Steff: Whoah...that is indeed huge!
Which I take to mean
Something to do with the hatch implosion is preventing the whispers from being heard
I agree! The potential implications are just mind boggling...
Or (worse?)... set free.

I absolutely love where this is going!

The Swan being the thumb in the dike trapped souls... Scary...

Why would releasing them mean the end of the world?
Mike: Me too! A few possibilities occur to me. First, the particular souls that are trapped might be agents (whether knowingly or not) of the Apocalypse. Second, and relatedly, these souls may be destined to be reincarnated as Homo Superior-type special people. Third, it the Island may be interfering generally with the process of reincarnation in hopes of stalling our spiritual evolution. There are some new age types who believe that humanity is rapidly approaching a moment of dramatic spiritual evolution that will simply kill those unprepared to deal with it.
Steff: Thanks for sharing that Gregg information. Is he hinting at what the Swan Hatch really does/did?
Junie: I get the sense it was a side effect, which may nonetheless provide a clue to Swan's real purpose (i.e., preventing reincarnation). I wonder, is there something about being reincarnated on the Island that's different than the regular world? Do people remember their past lives? Is that somehow dangerous?
Are they from the future and are somehow looking back at that Losties because they want to make sure that something does or doesn't happen, but they aren't supposed to interfere?
Geek girl strikes again -- I love it! Maybe the Island is no longer visible from the future following implosion of the Swan...
Ben's been probably telling them that he'd find their prophet, etc, if they let him lead. Now that the prophet is here... well, that's bad for Ben.
koralis: LOL -- I continue to love that speculation!
Hm, maybe wherever Ben is taking Locke is to the area used for remote viewing, could be where the people who we hear whispering are/were.
Desmundo: Intriguing...but say a bit more if you would. What kind of area do you have in mind?

BM, Lord of Light should still be in print. If not, check your local library system. They'll likely have it. I started to reread it last night. In it, the "gods" are first-generation colonists of a planet that was originally inhabited by energy beings. They've set themselves up as gods and are keeping the rest of the colonists subjugated. The book opens with Yama, who has been "deposed" downloading "Sam", the Buddha, from Nirvana! Sam had been exiled to a non-corporeal state, a band of particles/energy haloing the planet. They procede to transfer his conciousness into a body and reanimate/reconnect him to corporeal being.

I'm really convinced this kind of thing is happening in LOST. There are tons of religious analogies, I believe because someone wants people involved in the process to limit their understanding of it to a religious perspective. Just have "faith" that you're being reborn, don't worry about the man behind the curtain.

That man though, is doing it for some purpose of his own. He's got a system for plugging conciousnesses into corpses and turning 'em loose to accomplish his ends. Along these lines, I'm gonna guess that when the Lostaways "awoke" from the "crash", it was after a significant delay (timewise) in which they were processed into various bodies (probably regenerated from near- or fatal injuries).

The man behind the curtain can't do the work himself, because he's from the future. If he messes with the timeline directly, he messes up his own reality. But, if he gets "time locals" to do it, he's saved! That means a long process of indoctrination and training so that the time locals can get it right, when the time comes...

BM, Lord of Light should still be in print. If not, check your local library system. They'll likely have it. I started to reread it last night. In it, the "gods" are first-generation colonists of a planet that was originally inhabited by energy beings. They've set themselves up as gods and are keeping the rest of the colonists subjugated. The book opens with Yama, who has been "deposed" downloading "Sam", the Buddha, from Nirvana! Sam had been exiled to a non-corporeal state, a band of particles/energy haloing the planet. They procede to transfer his conciousness into a body and reanimate/reconnect him to corporeal being.I've often wondered if Gerald DeGroot originally created Jacob to play God with the Island natives and then something crazy happened to him one day. Is he looking for a physical body and wants Locke's body (so to speak)?

I'm really convinced this kind of thing is happening in LOST. There are tons of religious analogies, I believe because someone wants people involved in the process to limit their understanding of it to a religious perspective. Just have "faith" that you're being reborn, don't worry about the man behind the curtain.Maybe, a certain someone wants followers because he and his friends (whomever they are) need their bodies to "download" their souls and consciousnesses into at a certain time? Every time the Swan Hatch button had to be pushed, it meant another soul was getting a physical body? ;)

That man though, is doing it for some purpose of his own. He's got a system for plugging conciousnesses into corpses and turning 'em loose to accomplish his ends. Along these lines, I'm gonna guess that when the Lostaways "awoke" from the "crash", it was after a significant delay (timewise) in which they were processed into various bodies (probably regenerated from near- or fatal injuries).So, who were they before and what's next for them - and why do some of them die?


The man behind the curtain can't do the work himself, because he's from the future. If he messes with the timeline directly, he messes up his own reality. But, if he gets "time locals" to do it, he's saved! That means a long process of indoctrination and training so that the time locals can get it right, when the time comes...
I like that concept. I've seen inklings that Ben does things like this, including wanting Jack to want to do the surgery and wanting Locke to kill Cooper, but not overtly forcing either one of them to do those things...close, but not totally...

lol im sorry but the whole souls occupying other bodies kinda sounds like scientology to me...crazy scientology

Yeah, the soul theories are a little wacky...I agree...

BM, Lord of Light should still be in print. If not, check your local library system. They'll likely have it. I started to reread it last night. In it, the "gods" are first-generation colonists of a planet that was originally inhabited by energy beings. They've set themselves up as gods and are keeping the rest of the colonists subjugated..


If anyone picks it up, it's a little rough in the reading department. Starting from scratch it takes a LONG time to figure out what's going on. Given the big hint that hearingvoices just gave you, it should be much easier to follow on the initial reading. :)

lol im sorry but the whole souls occupying other bodies kinda sounds like scientology to me...crazy scientology

Then just think of it as overwriting a file on a computer hard drive. ;)

If I had to commit, I'd say that the Lostaways got plugged back in to their original bodies. I think it took a bit to regenerate them though. I've mentioned in some other threads that there is lots of good evidence for suspended animation research on the island. That fits in this scenario, I think.

From Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny:

Do you remember a snot-nosed brat of dubious parentage, third generation, named Yama? The kid who was always souping up generators, until one day one blew and he was so badly burned that he got his second body--one over fifty years old--when he was only sixteen? The kid who loved weapons? The kid who anesthetized one of everything that moves out there and dissected it, taking such pleasure in his studies that we called him deathgod?

Sound like a template for Ben?

I definantly agree with the idea about an electromagnetic soul and the theory the the Island has the ability to drag a soul from a body, or enable the possibility of transcendence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendence_%28religion%29) via enlightenment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_%28concept%29) based on the third-eye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_eye) theory.
This has probably been said already but I can't be certain.
This idea is based on the fact that when the electomagnetic barrier is active the souls or rather sentient beings bounce off it and can not escape without a physical body, so this theory is based on the living and deads consciousnesses floating around. The others are remote viewing the losties, they can enter other bodies and act as a puppet master. For eg while the barrier was down Desmonds consciousness entered his body at an earlier time and allowed him to contol his previous self. In this very same event Boone and Locke were remote viewing the airport before the flight took off. Another example could be the girl who drowned was speaking on behalf of someone(Yami?) on the tape Mr Eko heard or Juliets ex hubby walking in front of the bus and lets not forget Sawyers boar and frog.

Regarding the Losties being clones. Quoted on Lost Spoilers (from Ausiello):

"Damon and I are willing to go out on a limb and ding that theory," Carlton Cuse says. "They are not clones."
100%
I definantly agree with the idea about an electromagnetic soul and the theory the the Island has the ability to drag a soul from a body, or enable the possibility of transcendence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendence_%28religion%29) via enlightenment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_%28concept%29) based on the third-eye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_eye) theory.
This has probably been said already but I can't be certain.
This idea is based on the fact that when the electomagnetic barrier is active the souls or rather sentient beings bounce off it and can not escape without a physical body, so this theory is based on the living and deads consciousnesses floating around. The others are remote viewing the losties, they can enter other bodies and act as a puppet master. For eg while the barrier was down Desmonds consciousness entered his body at an earlier time and allowed him to contol his previous self. In this very same event Boone and Locke were remote viewing the airport before the flight took off. Another example could be the girl who drowned was speaking on behalf of someone(Yami?) on the tape Mr Eko heard or Juliets ex hubby walking in front of the bus and lets not forget Sawyers boar and frog.

Almost remote possession then, not just remote viewing?

It is quite bizarre that Locke saw the Nigerian plane before finding it. As far as we know, only Paulo of the Losties, had seen it before him. Does his vision coincide? (I doubt it, but worth a check.)

The others are remote viewing the losties, they can enter other bodies and act as a puppet master. For eg while the barrier was down Desmonds consciousness entered his body at an earlier time and allowed him to contol his previous self. In this very same event Boone and Locke were remote viewing the airport before the flight took off.

Cool ideas, Murasaki! And thanks for the Third Eye link! I'd been poking around with chakras and powers and the idea of mind transfer stuff, and hadn't come across that. Arigato!

His physical body is obliterated but his electromagnetic “soul” persists.

The worst part about having an electromagnetic soul is the bit about expanding at the speed of light. I mean really, only fools are enslaved by time and space.

Cool ideas, Murasaki! And thanks for the Third Eye link! I'd been poking around with chakras and powers and the idea of mind transfer stuff, and hadn't come across that. Arigato!
Yeah and notice in that link the cerebrospinal nervous system, that may be the real meaning of the cerberus system
Oh and hearingvoices i'm not japanese so don't let the name fool you.

Well, I'd say this theory got a heck of a shot in the arm after last night's episode.... Are the dead actually on the island, or is Smokey (or Jacob independantly of Smokey) merely manifesting illusions of them?

koralis: That is indeed the million dollar question. I think there really are ghosts trapped in the Island's electromagnetic field -- the operative word being "trapped." You know what else? I think Ben is holding Jacob's "ghost" prisoner in that remote house. Maybe He was once the leader of the Others and got killed during the hostilities. For a long time, Ben was the only one who could "hear" Jacob and thus tap his powerful psychic mind. But now Locke can too, which threatens Ben immensely. And what did Jacob say to Locke? "Help me..."

I once argued that the Lost Experience is a metaphor for what's happening on the show. Recall that the main plot line involved a dude of dubious origins (i.e., Mittelwerk) taking control of the Hanso Foundation and imprisoning old Alvar himself. That's basically what's happening on the Island now. Ben has seized control of Jacob's foundation, holding Him prisoner and speaking in His name.

koralis: That is indeed the million dollar question. I think there really are ghosts trapped in the Island's electromagnetic field -- the operative word being "trapped." You know what else? I think Ben is holding Jacob's "ghost" prisoner in that remote house. Maybe He was once the leader of the Others and got killed during the hostilities. For a long time, Ben was the only one who could "hear" Jacob and thus tap his powerful psychic mind. But now Locke can too, which threatens Ben immensely. And what did Jacob say to Locke? "Help me..."


Yes, but I think he's trapped in a more concrete than dying there.... Ben has surrounded that cabin with a binding circle!! It's something used when conjuring demons and spirits so that they can't attack you (they can't cross the circle.) Possibly made out of the wierd magnetic material that screws up the compasses on the island.


From the whisper's thread... since it's thematically relevant here.

Originally Posted by penyours http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/images/FuselageGreen/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1541915#post1541915)
That's a good possibility though a bit sloppy on Dharma's part in terms of security. Hey Koralis what did you think of Alpert asking Ben whether his mom died on the island, in connectiont to the whole lost souls/ghosts comments and theories.


Yes, it's a curious and pointed question. My guess is that spirits that die on the island stay on the island... people that have died elsewhere are merely illusions conjured by Jacob. When Ben answers that his mom died off the island he's essentially telling Alpert that Jacob is communicating to him... which ultimately leads to Ben being the leader.

When Ben sees that Locke is talking to Jacob, Ben's authority is sharply thrown into question. Ben didn't hear what was said to Locke... he was excluded.

Yes, but I think he's trapped in a more concrete than dying there.... Ben has surrounded that cabin with a binding circle!! It's something used when conjuring demons and spirits so that they can't attack you (they can't cross the circle.) Possibly made out of the wierd magnetic material that screws up the compasses on the island.
koralis: Oh, I quite agree! I gathered that the circle kept Jacob contained but was wondering what the substance was -- great catch! Hope you don't mind, but I'm going to mention your find in my blog...
Yes, it's a curious and pointed question. My guess is that spirits that die on the island stay on the island... people that have died elsewhere are merely illusions conjured by Jacob. When Ben answers that his mom died off the island he's essentially telling Alpert that Jacob is communicating to him... which ultimately leads to Ben being the leader.
Brilliant -- I wholeheartedly agree!
When Ben sees that Locke is talking to Jacob, Ben's authority is sharply thrown into question. Ben didn't hear what was said to Locke... he was excluded.
Ah, another great catch -- you're on a roll koralis!

Go for it, just credit me. ;)

Go for it, just credit me. ;)
I'm sure you saw my faq.
Do you have a link for information on binding circles, I've looked but can't find anything with the fundamentals of them.

Big: this isn't much, but the Closed Captioning said "ghostly whispering" during the whispers in TMBTC...
100%
ETA:

A screencap from S3/TMBTC shows DHARMA worker "Gasey" (http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/05/gemologist.html), on The Island, greeting Ben and his father as they arrived.

In a previous episode, Gasey was spoken to in the hidden audio transcript (link to recent quote of that transcript Whispers (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1543928&postcount=1617)):

20. you’re kidding right? come back here Gasey (26 sec possible teenage boy)


Also, dz77 posted a catch on the Tiberius thread that the "curtain" in TMBTC epi title might be a reference to "The Veil" between this world and the next.

Finally, from an old epi (#3!):


S1E3 Michael
I'm going to get your dog back as soon as it stops raining. Hey listen to me, I'm going to get your dog back. Yeah, soon as it stops raining good, nice. I'm going to find your dog... yeah, I'm just going to go walking through the haunted damn jungle looking for your... Vincent? Vincent? That you buddy?

I'm sure you saw my faq.
Do you have a link for information on binding circles, I've looked but can't find anything with the fundamentals of them.

What faq?


Everyone talks about binding circles, but no one seems to go into a lot of detail on what it's about. It's made all the harder because of all of the video games and role-playing games using the terms hiding the more relevant entries. :)


http://www.unexplainedstuff.com/Prophecy-and-Divination/Necromancy.html

A spirit could not be called without the magician first taking steps to protect himself. Should he not do this, his soul would be in danger. Protection took the form of talismans, seals, special powdered concoctions, and, most importantly, the magic circle. As long as the magician stood within the magic circle, he was invulnerable to whatever spirit entity he managed to call up.




There's a lot of human sacrifice happening on the island...

http://scifipedia.scifi.com/index.php/Category:Witchcraft

Control over these magical minions is maintained through words of power and actions dictated by a ritual, including the correct components for the summoning. A magic cirle, sometimes including a pentagram at the center, prevents creatures from harming the wizard as long as he stands within it.
....
Necromancy is associated with raising the dead, bestowing curses upon others, and summoning demons. As in conjuration, a magic circle is used when a necromancer summons an undead minion, a spirit, or demon. Blood and sacrifices- sometimes human- are common components for raising a creature through necromancy.




Here's one describing standing within the circle to be protected from things outside the circle. Again the principle is that the spirit can not cross the boundary.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta24.htm

This spirit was faithful for a long time, but to tell you how he served me is not possible in a document of this length and I will here only indicate how spirits are to be invoked and how the circles for protection are to be prepared. There are many kinds of spirits which will permit themselves to be invoked by man and become his servant.
...
Now, if you desire the aid of the spirit to get this or that, then you must first draw the sign of the spirit whom you desire to invoke. The drawing must be made just in front of a circle made before sunrise, in which you and your assistants will stand.




The Marlowe play Doctor Faustis (much more elaborate than Lost :)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.03.0010;query=scen e%3D%233;layout=norm%3Dcompare;loc=1

Faustus, begin thine incantations,
And try if devils will obey thy hest,
Seeing thou hast prayed and sacrificed to them.
Within this circle is Jehovah's name,
Forward and backward, anagrammatis'd,
The breviated names of holy Saints,
Figures of every adjunct to the heavens,
And characters of signs and erring stars,
By which the spirits are enforced to rise.





Here's an example from the TV show Supernatural


Sam makes a circle with the black powder, and tells the man to stay inside. Not long after, there is growling and the door begins to rattle. The hellhound has arrived.
...
The demon, eager to get Dean's soul, doesn't find this strange, but just before it enters the car, it notices salt on the ground. A Devil's Trap.
...
Or tries to. Dean has painted a Devil's Trap on the bottom of the tower, above the demon's head. It's trapped, and Dean begins the exorcism ritual to send it back to hell.



An another example from the "common knowlege" (In this case, the game of D&D)
http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd/srdschoolsofmagic.rtf

Spells that call powerful extraplanar creatures are most useful when the conjurer has a magical trap to hold the summoned creature. The simplest type of trap is a magic circle spell (magic circle against chaos, magic circle against evil, etc.). When focused inward, a magic circle spell binds a called creature for a maximum of 24 hours per caster level, provided that the character casts the spell that calls the creature within 1 round of casting the magic circle. However, if the circle laid down in the process of spellcasting is broken, the effect immediately ends. The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly, but other creatures can.




Here's an article whereby tibetan accolyltes are creating/summoning a ghost. Sounds like a plausible way fr Ben to manifest Jacob, but perhaps he never allowed Jacob out of the circle?

http://www.newdawnmagazine.com.au/Article/How_to_Make_a_Ghost.html

When the student was saturated in Yidam lore, he would typically be advised to find a remote cave and there create a magic circle (known as a kylkhor) using powdered chalk. The purpose of the circle was to encourage the visible appearance of the Yidam.


In order to achieve this, the pupil was instructed to visualise the Yidam within the circle. Over a period of weeks, or months, the pupil had to continue the exercise until a full-scale hallucination resulted and the Yidam appeared. At this point, the pupil would be told he was obviously favoured by the god.


But for his next step, he would have to persuade it to leave the circle.
The process might take several more months, but eventually the pupil would report that the god had stepped out of the kylkhor. He would be congratulated, then told to see if he could manage to get the Yidam to speak to him.


Once this was achieved, the goal-posts were moved again. The pupil was required to receive the Yidam’s blessing, a process that, in Tibet, involved the laying of hands on the pupil’s head.


Once the pupil reported positively on this latest task, the guru would typically tell him he had only one more step to take. He had achieved conversation with and blessing from the Yidam, but it was still confined to the cave. In order to establish the deity as his personal guru, the pupil had to persuade the Yidam to leave its circle and accompany him wherever he went. Off went the pupil to his Himalayan cave again.

I definantly agree with the idea about an electromagnetic soul and the theory the the Island has the ability to drag a soul from a body, or enable the possibility of transcendence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendence_%28religion%29) via enlightenment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_%28concept%29) based on the third-eye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_eye) theory.
This has probably been said already but I can't be certain.
This idea is based on the fact that when the electomagnetic barrier is active the souls or rather sentient beings bounce off it and can not escape without a physical body, so this theory is based on the living and deads consciousnesses floating around. The others are remote viewing the losties, they can enter other bodies and act as a puppet master. For eg while the barrier was down Desmonds consciousness entered his body at an earlier time and allowed him to contol his previous self. In this very same event Boone and Locke were remote viewing the airport before the flight took off. Another example could be the girl who drowned was speaking on behalf of someone(Yami?) on the tape Mr Eko heard or Juliets ex hubby walking in front of the bus and lets not forget Sawyers boar and frog.
Murasaki: Great stuff! Have you seen my thread re the pineal gland and melatonin (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1537949)? Also, are you familiar with Terry McKenna's work? He believed the pineal gland was the key to transcending time and space...
Big: this isn't much, but the Closed Captioning said "ghostly whispering" during the whispers in TMBTC...
100%
ETA:

A screencap from S3/TMBTC shows DHARMA worker "Gasey" (http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/05/gemologist.html), on The Island, greeting Ben and his father as they arrived.

In a previous episode, Gasey was spoken to in the hidden audio transcript (link to recent quote of that transcript Whispers (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1543928&postcount=1617)):

Also, dz77 posted a catch on the Tiberius thread that the "curtain" in TMBTC epi title might be a reference to "The Veil" between this world and the next.

Finally, from an old epi (#3!):
Tabby: Great stuff! Sure does seem like the Island is a Soul Gateway (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=29401), no?
Everyone talks about binding circles, but no one seems to go into a lot of detail on what it's about. It's made all the harder because of all of the video games and role-playing games using the terms hiding the more relevant entries. :)
koralis: I'd say that's a pretty good start! Someone asked an interesting question on my blog -- how is the circle maintained against breaches by wind, rain, etc.? Or does Jacob periodically escape, perhaps seizing control of Cerberus when He does?

I put this up on the whispers thread already. EVP:

From [/URL]Wiki:
Electronic voice phenomenon (EVP) is a term used to refer to sounds that are captured on [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recording_media"]recorded media (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon) or other electronic devices and are said by paranormal investigators to be voices of paranormal origin.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon#_note-aaevp1) Examples of purported EVP are typically short, usually the length of a word or short phrase, although longer segments have also been reported.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon#_note-fort1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon#_note-Baruss)
Explanations proposed by those who say that they are paranormal in origin include that they are the voices of deceased human beings, psychic projections from EVP researchers, or communications from intelligent non-human entities.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon)

Examples of EVP in real life:
http://paranormal.about.com/library/blevps01.htm

What faq?

Magic_circles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_circle_%28Wicca%29) or summoning circles are known to be salted
A magic circle can be used for several things.
Conjuration of the ghosts or souls of the dead for the purpose of divination is called necromancy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy). Alchemy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy) is the process of combining of chemistry, metallurgy, physics, medicine, astrology, semiotics, mystisism, spirtualism and art all as parts of one greater force(the creation of smokie?). Jacob could be a summoned deity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity). Some deity's are thought to be invisible or inaccessible to humans, to dwell mainly in otherworldly, remote or secluded and holy places, such as heaven, hell, the sky, the under-world, under the sea, in the high mountains, or deep forests, or in a supernatural plane or a celestial sphere, choosing but rarely to reveal or manifest themselves to humans, and to make themselves known mainly through their effects.
I urge you to check the link to deity.

A deva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_%28Buddhism%29) is a type of deity that is invisable to humans unless they have opened their divine eye(possibly third-eye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_eye)).

Another interesting link http://www.eng.taoism.org.hk/religio...ls/pg4-3-6.asp (http://www.eng.taoism.org.hk/religious-activities&rituals/talismans-registers&magic-skills/pg4-3-6.asp)
Hmm I'm starting to think the hostiles are taoists.

I posted this a few days ago on the main board and it generated no feedback but i know bigmouth and some of the other regular posters would understand this concept.

I put this up on the whispers thread already. EVP:

From Wiki:
Electronic voice phenomenon (EVP) is a term used to refer to sounds that are captured on recorded media (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recording_media) or other electronic devices and are said by paranormal investigators to be voices of paranormal origin.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon#_note-aaevp1) Examples of purported EVP are typically short, usually the length of a word or short phrase, although longer segments have also been reported.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon#_note-fort1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon#_note-Baruss)
Explanations proposed by those who say that they are paranormal in origin include that they are the voices of deceased human beings, psychic projections from EVP researchers, or communications from intelligent non-human entities.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon)

Examples of EVP in real life:
http://paranormal.about.com/library/blevps01.htm
I've heard rumors of this but didn't check up on it. I have to agree that is the way the sounds got on the tape that eko heard. Thanks for the links.

Yeah and notice in that link the cerebrospinal nervous system, that may be the real meaning of the cerberus system
Oh and hearingvoices i'm not japanese so don't let the name fool you.

Gracias, Murasaki. ;) That connection got me thinking: What if Smokey is a soul collector? In fetal development, it looks like the Thalamus (more specifically thalamic connections), which is regarded as the seat of consciousness, is formed between 26 and 38 weeks. What if these fetuses, ready to receive souls, get conflicting signals, or no signals (assuming souls come from an outside source)? That might explain the pregnancy problems.

koralis: That is indeed the million dollar question. I think there really are ghosts trapped in the Island's electromagnetic field -- the operative word being "trapped." You know what else? I think Ben is holding Jacob's "ghost" prisoner in that remote house. Maybe He was once the leader of the Others and got killed during the hostilities. For a long time, Ben was the only one who could "hear" Jacob and thus tap his powerful psychic mind. But now Locke can too, which threatens Ben immensely. And what did Jacob say to Locke? "Help me..."

BM, Tantric Buddhism defines the stream of consciousness proceeding endlessly from lifetime to lifetime and beyond as an inclusive continuum; the mindstream. Could the island be a channel for the mindstream, a place where consciousness actually enters the earth?

My guess is that spirits that die on the island stay on the island... people that have died elsewhere are merely illusions conjured by Jacob. When Ben answers that his mom died off the island he's essentially telling Alpert that Jacob is communicating to him... which ultimately leads to Ben being the leader.

I like this idea, koralis. Continuing the mindstream-channel idea, what if the island holds a well of souls?

Some deity's are thought to be invisible or inaccessible to humans, to dwell mainly in otherworldly, remote or secluded and holy places, such as heaven, hell, the sky, the under-world, under the sea, in the high mountains, or deep forests, or in a supernatural plane or a celestial sphere, choosing but rarely to reveal or manifest themselves to humans, and to make themselves known mainly through their effects. A deva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_%28Buddhism%29) is a type of deity that is invisable to humans unless they have opened their divine eye(possibly third-eye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_eye)

Tagzig Olmo Lung Ring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagzig_Olmo_Lung_Ring) is a non-dual spiritual realm of the Bön tradition (a Buddhist variant) which resides beyond dualism. A non-dual realm is defined as one without distinctions between, for example, mind and body. This might make a denizen of such a realm "invisible" to our "dual" senses. As you suggested, to see the "deva", maybe you have to open your divine (non-dual) eye.

Tagzig Olmo Lung Ring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagzig_Olmo_Lung_Ring) is a non-dual spiritual realm of the Bön tradition (a Buddhist variant) which resides beyond dualism. A non-dual realm is defined as one without distinctions between, for example, mind and body. This might make a denizen of such a realm "invisible" to our "dual" senses. As you suggested, to see the "deva", maybe you have to open your divine (non-dual) eye.
Wow great find that sounds just like the Island.
With your idea about fetuses being a host for souls is an interesting idea but that would beg the question of why not adults, though I do believe the children will have a vital part later in the show.
I would like to state some ideas about alchemy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy) which is combining things of a different nature together(merging).
The use of combining souls with another object could result in possibilities like souls+physical bodies=person with a different conciousness.
There could be other formula's that might create smokie with this method as well.

What if the 6 stations surrounding the pearl(?) were used as a huge magic circle generating vast amounts of energy for summoning, necromancy, alchemy ect?
Mr Eko's stick is probably a wand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wand) which are supposably one metre in length.

In wicca and ceremonial magic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_magic), practitioners use wands for the channeling of energy, they serve a similar purpose to the athame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athame) although the two have their distinct uses. While an athame is generally used to command, a wand is seen as more gentle and is used to invite or encourage. Though traditionally made of wood, they can also consist of metal or crystal. Practitioners usually prune a branch from an Oak, Hazel, or other tree, or may even buy wood from a hardware store, and then carve it and add decorations to personalize it; however, one can also purchase ready-made wands. In Wicca the wand usually represents the element fire, or sometimes air.
Ceremonial magic is the ancient art of invoking and controlling spirits by a scientific application of certain formulæ. A magician, enveloped in sanctified vestments and carrying a wand inscribed with hieroglyphic figures, could by the power vested in certain words and symbols control the invisible inhabitants of the elements and of the astral world. While the elaborate ceremonial magic of antiquity was not necessarily evil, there arose from its perversion several false schools of sorcery, or black magic.

Two of the main purposes of magic circles is invocation, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invocation) and evocation. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evocation)
Possible relevence the key of solomon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_of_Solomon).
I could ramble about them but you would understand better if you checked the links.

Originally posted by hearingvoices
As you suggested, to see the "deva", maybe you have to open your divine (non-dual) eye.If find that interesting that you use the words "divine eye." Back in season 1, Locke is teaching Walt how to throw a knife into the tree, but Walt is having difficulty at doing so. Then Locke tells Walt to use his "mind's eye." Immediately after that, Walt throws his knife perfectly into the tree. It is interesting that the conversation about the "mind's eye" would come from the two characters who have garnered the most interest from the Others.

It diffintely sounds like the writers were referring to the "divine eye" as described in Tagzig Olmo Lung Ring.

Originally Posted by hearingvoices http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/images/FuselageGreen/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1547836#post1547836)
Tagzig Olmo Lung Ring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagzig_Olmo_Lung_Ring) is a non-dual spiritual realm of the Bön tradition (a Buddhist variant) which resides beyond dualism. A non-dual realm is defined as one without distinctions between, for example, mind and body. This might make a denizen of such a realm "invisible" to our "dual" senses. As you suggested, to see the "deva", maybe you have to open your divine (non-dual) eye.

I was thinking Jacob's ladder could tie in with this theory being the gateway to heaven or hell.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob%27s_Ladder_%28Bible%29

I read an interesting thread by qu4d smokie is a djinn (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=65580).
It is a summoned being and has the characteristics of smokie.

Yes, the thought occurred to me too, which is why I mentioned the "Devils trap" and such. Djinn and Ifrit are ultimately two varieties of spirits/demons with free will. Mostly the commentary about Djinn mesh fairly well with western folklore about ghostly spirits or demons and are largely interchangable.


http://www.answers.com/topic/genie-1


For the ancient Semites, jinn were spirits of vanished ancient peoples who acted during the night and disappeared with the first light of dawn; they could make themselves invisible or change shape into animals at will; these spirits were commonly believed to be responsible for diseases and for the manias of some lunatics. Types of jinn include the ghul ("night shade", which can change shape), the sila (which cannot change shape), the afrit [ai'fɾɪt], and "marid" [mʌ'ɾɪd]. From information in The Arabian Nights, marid seem to be the strongest form of jinn, followed by afrit, and then the rest of the jinn.


Arabs believed that the jinn were spirits of fire, although sometimes they associated them with succubi (demons in the forms of beautiful women). The feminine form of jinn is "jinniyah" or "jinneyeh".

According to the majority of Islamic scholars, Qur'an states that the Devil was not an angel (which is believed by Christians), but a jinn who was given a higher honour and rank than angels.[2] According to Islam, angels are different physical beings,made from light and unlike the fiery nature of jinn,


Possession to impregnate? Djinn and humans don't mix well causing the deaths? Harsh treatment?

IT would explain various visions that losties have had, and the possession whereby Charlie tried to steal Aaron.

http://survivorsareus.com/index.cfm/Spiritual%5FWarfare%5FPrayer%5FRuqyah%5FII

"Evil spirits mostly gain control of those having little religous inclination and those whose hearts and tongues faith has deserted; t

...

1. "The occasional possession of man by the Jinn may be due to the sexual desires on the part of the Jinn...or even love, just as it may be among humans."

2. " Demonic possession sometimes also occurs as a result of horseplay, jest or plain evil on the part of the jinn, just as eviland mischief occurs from among humans for similar reasons."

3. " However, possession is most often a result of the Jinn being angry because some wrong has been done to them. Thus, the jinn punish those who wronged them. For example, when humans accidentaly harm or hurt them by urinating on them, pouring hot water on them or by killing some of them, the jinn think that they have been intentionally harmed. Although humans may not realize what they have done, the jinn by nature are very ignorant, harsh and volatile in their behavior, so they may vengefully punish humans much more severly than they deserve."

...

"The Jinn usually communicate by either visions or voices with those seeking information among the idol worshippers , Christians, Jews and heretical Muslims driven astray by the devils....The devils will often respond while taking the form of one besought , whether dead or alive...This frequently happens to Chrisitans (survivorsareus.com note: or heretical Muslims like Sufi's and so on and so forth) who call upon those whom they edify, whether dead or alive...." Elsewhere he said, "And among them (i.e., disbelievers, pagans, magicians, ect..) are those who believe that when someone dies he can return and communicate with them, pay their debts, retrieve their lost items, and advise them. Images of those who who die come to them [doing these things], but they are actually devils taking their forms."

Like murasaki, I think it comes back to the pineal gland, which is believed by many cultures to be the mind's (or third) eye and which is sensitive to electromagnetism. Indeed, Descartes thought that the pineal was the gland whereby spiritual and material worlds interacted (i.e., body and soul). I also love the references to alchemy, which has a spiritual dimension, as well. Murasaki's circle diagram reminds me of the Gnostic Circle (http://www.aeongroup.com/gc.htm), which is a symbol of spiritual alchemy and incorporates zodiacal elements, too. Interestingly, the underlying cosmology is about human evolution and a concept called restoration of the Lost Sun, which harkens back to the Rig Veda.

BTW, koralis, did you see that the most recent podcast basically confirmed the binding circle speculation?

Like murasaki, I think it comes back to the pineal gland, which is believed by many cultures to be the mind's (or third) eye and which is sensitive to electromagnetism. Indeed, Descartes thought that the pineal was the gland whereby spiritual and material worlds interacted (i.e., body and soul). I also love the references to alchemy, which has a spiritual dimension, as well. Murasaki's circle diagram reminds me of the Gnostic Circle (http://www.aeongroup.com/gc.htm), which is a symbol of spiritual alchemy and incorporates zodiacal elements, too. Interestingly, the underlying cosmology is about human evolution and a concept called restoration of the Lost Sun, which harkens back to the Rig Veda.

This part stood out to me the most.


'The Gnostic Circle is merely the combination of the zodiac - the occult circle which contains the knowledge of the evolution - and the structural pattern of the solar system. The Circle of 12 is the zodiac, and the Circle of 9 is our actual solar system, each orbit representing one year of Earth life. The joint harmony of these two, superimposed or synthesized in one circle, is what constitutes our key to the evolution and flowering of the seed of the Spirit. In fact we can say that the Gnostic Circle is mainly for this purpose. It shows mankind the ultimate and ideal perfection that can be attained during this particular phase of the evolution, during this great transition point from animal-mental to the more divine mankind.'
The Gnostic Circle p. 159, 1975, Patrizia Noreill-Bachelet

The Gnostic Circle allows us to measure the progression of any event in time. And it provides the means of assessing an event's relevance to time and place within a global and universal context. Above all, it permits us to appreciate the interconnectedness of events through a unified, spherical approach to Time. The Gnostic Circle is a yardstick which can be applied to any event and by which that event or object may be made to reveal its intrinsic nature and objective value. In ancient literature and tradition, such a tool was sometimes referred to as the Golden Rod, or the Philosopher's Stone. Its value resided in the fact that because of its special relation to Time and Space, it could provide an objective means to assess the truth-conscious substance of any given situation or event or object. In a word, it could objectively reveal the element's inner pulse and place within the greater harmony of life on Earth and within the solar system.
The Vishaal Newsletter, - Oct 30, 1991
Two of the things really stood out to me about th gnostic circle.
One was the philosophers stone, that is said to have the ability to create an elixir via alchemy that gives eternal life, obviously that could explain Richards ability to stay young.
Secondly the references to evolution, I still believe alot of the events on the Island are because of a higher state of evolution, active pineal glands, new species ect.
Very interesting bigmouth nice find.

Like murasaki, I think it comes back to the pineal gland, which is believed by many cultures to be the mind's (or third) eye and which is sensitive to electromagnetism. Indeed, Descartes thought that the pineal was the gland whereby spiritual and material worlds interacted (i.e., body and soul). I also love the references to alchemy, which has a spiritual dimension, as well. Murasaki's circle diagram reminds me of the Gnostic Circle (http://www.aeongroup.com/gc.htm), which is a symbol of spiritual alchemy and incorporates zodiacal elements, too. Interestingly, the underlying cosmology is about human evolution and a concept called restoration of the Lost Sun, which harkens back to the Rig Veda.

BTW, koralis, did you see that the most recent podcast basically confirmed the binding circle speculation?

How did it confirm it? When in the podcast?

BTW, koralis, did you see that the most recent podcast basically confirmed the binding circle speculation?
I just heard the podcast, sounds like a binding circle.

I love the stuff about the Jinn! (We have a cat named "Djinn" here at the house.)

I think that stuff ties into things I was writing about in The Water Babies (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=79676), suggesting that an explanation for the immortals and the "otherworldly" aspects might in fact be related to Faerie legends.

I know that stuff has probably all come up before, but I think there is an interesting co-dependency between the first folk and humankind: Humans want the magic powers and immortality and the Faeries want children to continue their lines of descent.

ETA: And, according to the Koran, both humans and jinn are drawn to the place of the holy black stone:

Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for Al-'Alamin (the mankind and jinns). In it are manifest signs (for example), the Maqam (place) of Ibrahim (Abraham); whosoever enters it, he attains security. And Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah) to the House (Ka'bah) is a duty that mankind owes to Allah, those who can afford the expenses (for one's conveyance, provision and residence); and whoever disbelieves [i.e. denies Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah), then he is a disbeliever of Allah], then Allah stands not in need of any of the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns). [Qur'ân 3:96-97]

Regarding volcanic ash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_ash).
This is mainly aimed to bigmouths post that "smokie is static cling" (dead thread).
Due to the recent develepment of the fact that the island used to have volcanic activity i think this may be relevent.

Unlike the ash that forms from burning wood or other combustible materials, volcanic ash is hard and abrasive, rather than soft and fluffy. It does not dissolve in water, and it conducts electricity, especially when it is wet. During a severe ash fall, the sky may seem hazy or yellow, and light may fade altogether. The approaching ash cloud may appear to be a weather cloud: lightning and thunder are often present. The air often smells of sulfur.

The volcanic type eruptions and smokies appearance, the weather cloud and electical activity are all things we have noted when we see smokie.

BTW, koralis, did you see that the most recent podcast basically confirmed the binding circle speculation?


No, I missed that... what did they say exactly?

Btw, the one point in favor of Djinn rather than western ghost or devil is that according to islamic legend, Djinn were created first and lived on earth as people do... basically a different race of people (with more powers.) We have seen ancient artifacts on the island... and who's to say that Djinn don't have 4 toes? :)

No, I missed that... what did they say exactly?

Btw, the one point in favor of Djinn rather than western ghost or devil is that according to islamic legend, Djinn were created first and lived on earth as people do... basically a different race of people (with more powers.) We have seen ancient artifacts on the island... and who's to say that Djinn don't have 4 toes? :)
If the djinn formed as an early image of man being shapeshifters and all.
Heres the link for the latest podcast http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/podcast?dt=20070511
100%
A new addition to my magic circle theories.
In classical Greco-Roman mythology, the god Hermes/Mercury has a special wand called a caduceus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus). The caduceus is one of the Dharma Initiative symbols.Dharma logo picture (http://bp0.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/Rkddvpsh7nI/AAAAAAAAFbE/46wqXg5RGgY/s1600-h/Caduceus_logo.jpg).
In astrology Mecury is linked to the caduceus and budha (I doubt that has any significance though).

Murasaki: Wow...that stuff about the interconnectedness of events via a spherical approach to time strikes me as highly relevant. I actually posted a whole theory on this subject (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=42790)way back when, before Desmond's time traveling episode. Truthfully, I'd come to believe this Gnostic Circle angle was dead. So pleased you've convinced me otherwise!

HV and Murasaki: Love the connection between black rock, the Philosopher's stone, and the holy black stone. I, too, have wondered if they're all one and the same -- check out Part II (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=952189&postcount=2) of my mirror matter post for some related speculations.

Murasaki: Speaking of volcanic ash, I'm now thinking back to those little piles of dirt in the Pearl. I figured they were dust and debris from the ceiling when the Beechcraft fell. Could those have been volcanic ash, too?

Milgram and Koralis: Here's the quote:
I think that there’s kind of a couple of possible explanations. One explanation is that yes that substance combined with other things, perhaps might be keeping Jacob confined. The other explanation is that the Volcano that Annie was making spew out a lot of ash and that ash happened to fall in a nice symmetrical pattern around the cabin.

HV and Murasaki: Love the connection between black rock, the Philosopher's stone, and the holy black stone. I, too, have wondered if they're all one and the same -- check out Part II (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=952189&postcount=2) of my mirror matter post for some related speculations.

Thanks for the link, BM! I can't help wondering whether your reference to Circe's Feast has implications for Locke. He has eaten natural food from the island almost exclusively AFAIK, so would that put him even more in touch with the island's powers? I think so!

BM after reading some of your older threads and looking at the dates they were submited makes me realise you were already on the right track with some of your stuff a long time ago, a lot of them seem to be coming into play now.

I was thinking the hostiles might be using placebo's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo) as their injections
I've just been looking into shamans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism) and initiation processes.
There's some great stuff.

A shaman may be initiated via a serious illness, by being struck by lightning and dreaming of thunder to become a heyoka, or by a near death experience or one might follow a "calling" to become a shaman. There is usually a set of cultural imagery expected to be experienced during shamanic initiation regardless of the method of induction. According to Mircea Eliade, such imagery often includes being transported to the spirit world and interacting with beings inhabiting the distant world of spirits, meeting a spiritual guide, being devoured by some being and emerging transformed, and/or being "dismantled" and "reassembled" again, often with implanted amulets such as magical crystals. The imagery of initiation generally speaks of transformation and the granting powers to transcend death and rebirth.

Locke and his out of body experience in the spirit tent and Boone as his spirit guide.
Also if jacob was a shaman he had the ability to heal people

Shamanic illness, also called shamanistic inititatory crisis, is a psycho-spiritual crisis, or a rite of passage, observed among those becoming shamans. The episode often marks the beginning of a time-limited episode of confusion or disturbing behavior where the shamanic initiate might sing or dance in an unconventional fashion, or have an experience of being "disturbed by spirits". The symptoms are usually not considered to be signs of mental illness by interpreters in the shamanic culture; rather, they are interpreted as introductory signposts for the individual who is meant to take the office of shaman.

The sickness?

Neoshamans (new age shamans) focus on the ritual use of entheogens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entheogens), as well as Chaos magic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic).

Entheogens sound exactly like the stuff Boone ate when he saw the hallucination Shannon being killed and Locke ate it before he went in the spirit tent. Chaos magic has references to Gnosic conciousnesses and Taoism.
Forgive me if I'm jumping the gun but it sounds an awful lot like Locke will be innitiated as a shaman.
I really think we're onto something

I just watched the "The Answers" clip show/podcast last night. Mostly nothing new... but there was one little recap that struck me as very clever of the writers from the first season, because it went unnoticed and even in the clip show not neccessarily obvious... in case anyone missed it, I'll recap it here. :)


When Shannon was translating Danielle's radio message she says, "Send help! The others... they're all dead." At that point, we assume that the others refers to the rest of her crew so it's not that notable.

Later they meet Danielle and the losties ask if she's alone on the island, to which she replied something like, "I can not see the others, but I hear them."

This is similar to the understated hints such as the Seoul Gateway hotel, etc. Both clips were on The Answers last night, but seperated out slightly so as not to make it too obvious to link them. :)


Taken together, I believe that Danielle is aware that the whispers consist of the dead and that the writers told us this very early on, but in a rather clever semi-hidden fashion. Props to the writers and storyline guys!

When Shannon was translating Danielle's radio message she says, "Send help! The others... they're all dead." At that point, we assume that the others refers to the rest of her crew so it's not that notable.

Later they meet Danielle and the losties ask if she's alone on the island, to which she replied something like, "I can not see the others, but I hear them."

Taken together, I believe that Danielle is aware that the whispers consist of the dead and that the writers told us this very early on, but in a rather clever semi-hidden fashion.

Cool link, koralis. It makes me wonder more about the significance of Locke hearing Jacob, but not seeing him. Like Danielle? I still can't shake the feeling that she is connected to Alpert, sort af an Artemis to his Apollo, but that's another theory I suppose...

BM after reading some of your older threads and looking at the dates they were submited makes me realise you were already on the right track with some of your stuff a long time ago, a lot of them seem to be coming into play now.

I was thinking the hostiles might be using placebo's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo) as their injections
I've just been looking into shamans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism) and initiation processes.
There's some great stuff.

Locke and his out of body experience in the spirit tent and Boone as his spirit guide.
Also if jacob was a shaman he had the ability to heal people

The sickness?

Entheogens sound exactly like the stuff Boone ate when he saw the hallucination Shannon being killed and Locke ate it before he went in the spirit tent. Chaos magic has references to Gnosic conciousnesses and Taoism.
Forgive me if I'm jumping the gun but it sounds an awful lot like Locke will be innitiated as a shaman.
I really think we're onto something

Really interesting, think you may be on to something. I am going to read a little more about it.

...When Shannon was translating Danielle's radio message she says, "Send help! The others... they're all dead." At that point, we assume that the others refers to the rest of her crew so it's not that notable.

Later they meet Danielle and the losties ask if she's alone on the island, to which she replied something like, "I can not see the others, but I hear them."

(snips)

....Taken together, I believe that Danielle is aware that the whispers consist of the dead and that the writers told us this very early on, but in a rather clever semi-hidden fashion. Props to the writers and storyline guys!

I posted something similar in the "Jacob is dead" thread just a few minutes ago. If you read through the entire translation of her message (it can be found on the Distress Signal page at Lostpedia) it really makes a lot of sense. Some excerpts that might be relevent:

If anybody can hear this, they are dead. Please help us ... Please help us. They are dead. They are all dead. Help us. They are dead ... Please help us ! They are all dead. They are dead. It [or he] killed them. It [or he] killed them all.

Is "it" the island? The monster? If it was to be translated as "he" rather than "it," could she be referring to Jacob?


DLKD-

Wow...it took me a few reads to get what you guys were saying but it really makes sense -- "they" (i.e, the Others, who are the source of the whispers) are all dead. What if the Others need people like Ben (and perhaps Hurley) to manifest physically?

So, the Whisperers that are possibly dead, are they in a state of existence that's similar to Jacob? Are they trapped like Jacob seems to be? What will it take to free them - and is that a good thing?

In Islamic tradition, the Well of Souls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_of_Souls) is the place where the souls of the dead gather for the last judgment, an event often associated with a Messiah. That’d explain Richard’s focus and fascination on a messianic figure, one who would possibly free them from their bondage. It’d be natural for Ben, being alive, to be “distracted” by pregnancy issues and such.

I’ve posted (as have others) in some other threads the idea that the island forms a sort of magnetic core memory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_core_memory) wherein souls are stored. I think that at some point, either the souls, or visitors to the island decided it’d be worth reconnecting those souls to bodies. I think that the DHARMA Initiative must have either discovered the “secret” or somehow co-opted the process in such a way that the dead decided they must be purged.

Still riffing on this notion that Danielle was referring the Others when she said "it killed them all." Can anyone think of a single confirmed instance where Danielle has actually SEEN an Other? I'm wondering if maybe only certain special people can actually see them...
So, the Whisperers that are possibly dead, are they in a state of existence that's similar to Jacob? Are they trapped like Jacob seems to be? What will it take to free them - and is that a good thing?
Junie: I wonder about that...as well as how Ben managed to "trap" Jacob. I also wonder what happens to the bodies of special people like Walt when they project astrally. What if your body was killed while your soul was separated. Would you become a ghost?
I’ve posted (as have others) in some other threads the idea that the island forms a sort of magnetic core memory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_core_memory) wherein souls are stored. I think that at some point, either the souls, or visitors to the island decided it’d be worth reconnecting those souls to bodies. I think that the DHARMA Initiative must have either discovered the “secret” or somehow co-opted the process in such a way that the dead decided they must be purged.
HV: Very cool stuff! Do you suppose anyone on the Island can control the dead? I've often wondered if the whispers during Charlotte Malkin's autopsy were spirits sent to deliver a message. This could account for how Cooper got to the Island as well (i.e., various agents, including the orderly, were possessed to do someone's bidding).

Do you suppose anyone on the Island can control the dead? I've often wondered if the whispers during Charlotte Malkin's autopsy were spirits sent to deliver a message. This could account for how Cooper got to the Island as well (i.e., various agents, including the orderly, were possessed to do someone's bidding).

Possession wouldn't surprise me. I'm half convinced that the reason the pregnancies are failing is that multiple souls are trying to inhabit the fetuses and they're fighting over 'em.

Looking at the big picture, I'm wondering if another way to "solve" the Valenzetti Equations/survival of the species issues might have been to try to throw multiple minds at it, perhaps contained within one body. There's some cool discussion in chess circles about humans working in parallel with AI's and how strong the combo is. So maybe a combined hive-mind (the island) might need to find certain humans (http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cia/reducing_analytic_error.htm) to work with it to solve the problem of survival?

Wow...it took me a few reads to get what you guys were saying but it really makes sense -- "they" (i.e, the Others, who are the source of the whispers) are all dead. What if the Others need people like Ben (and perhaps Hurley) to manifest physically?


Lets make a dstinction between the whisperers (aka others, ghosts) and Others with a capital O like Ben, Juliette, the stewardess, etc. It souns like you understand that distinction since you're talking about Ben being needed, but just for clarity.

I think originally Others were intended to mean the ghosts, but the audience assumed it was Ethan etc, and the writers have gone with it by having all of the losties refer to Ben's group that way. :) "The Others" was a ghost story after all.


I think Ben has made it his mission to find new bodies for these ghosts to inhabit (to save his mom, amongst other things) but they can't just "take over" under normal circumstances because a person's will is too strong. But a new baby body... that's different.



Junie: I wonder about that...as well as how Ben managed to "trap" Jacob. I also wonder what happens to the bodies of special people like Walt when they project astrally. What if your body was killed while your soul was separated. Would you become a ghost?[/quote[

Try on this theory.. Jacob was a real, physical person who was doing the astral projection thing and working on "ascending" after refining his spirit. Ben trapped Jacob in the process. The rest of the gang assumes it happened and that Jacob is still running the show, and Ben lets that stand and takes over from the #2 spot.

However, that doesn't mesh with an earlier thought which was that Ben was chosen because Jacob would talk to him (Alpert asking is his mother was killed on or off the island... if off it wasn't really her spirit, but Jacob pretending to be his mom.)


[quote]HV: Very cool stuff! Do you suppose anyone on the Island can control the dead? I've often wondered if the whispers during Charlotte Malkin's autopsy were spirits sent to deliver a message. This could account for how Cooper got to the Island as well (i.e., various agents, including the orderly, were possessed to do someone's bidding).

Sounds plausible (within the context of the already fantastic premise :) )

I think I saw something posted on another thread by HV saying the black powder may stop the EM waves getting into the space that Jacob occupies. I was thinking that the waves may make Jacob visable(the torch), and if so that may mean some of the other Island dwellers could be just like Jacob.
Any thoughts.

I think I saw something posted on another thread by HV saying the black powder may stop the EM waves getting into the space that Jacob occupies. I was thinking that the waves may make Jacob visable(the torch), and if so that may mean some of the other Island dwellers could be just like Jacob.
Any thoughts.

I think it might have been this post (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1565499&postcount=20). About Pozzolana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozzolana).

I think the waves making Jacob visible is a good idea. I'm also messing around with the idea that Jacob may exist in a mirror world (http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20000909/bob10.asp).

I think it might have been this post (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1565499&postcount=20). About Pozzolana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozzolana).

I think the waves making Jacob visible is a good idea. I'm also messing around with the idea that Jacob may exist in a mirror world (http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20000909/bob10.asp).

Wow mirror matter.
I had a little look around myself.

The only way mirror matter can interact with ordinary matter via forces other than gravity is via so-called kinetic mixing of mirror bosons with ordinary bosons or via the exchange of as of yet unknown particles which carry both ordinary and mirror charges
The kinetic energy of an object is the extra energy which it possesses due to its motion.

This sort of works with the Bosonic String Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosonic_string).
The unknown particles being tachyon's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon).

Kinetic energy is defined as the work needed to accelerate a body of a given mass from rest to its current velocity. Having gained this energy during its accelleration, the body maintains this kinetic energy unless its speed changes. Negative work of the same magnitude would be required to return the body to a state of rest from that velocity.

LOL -- we are officially a collective consciousness! Check out the Mirror Matter Theory of Lost. (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=46622) Could Jacob's chirality be reversed? What if your soul is really your mirror matter twin?

Also, koralis, I'm now slightly confused. You're suggesting that the whispers are ghosts who interact somehow with the Others? I can certainly dig this but am confused how Danielle's comments support this conclusion. Here's what she said to Sayid:
SAYID: Your distress signal? The message I heard, you said, "It killed them all."

DANIELLE: We were coming back from the Black Rock. It was them. They were the carriers.

SAYID: Who were the carriers?

DANIELLE: The others.

SAYID: What others? What is the Black Rock? Have you seen other people on this island?

DANIELLE: No, but I hear them. Out there, in the jungle. They whisper. You think I'm insane.

LOL -- we are officially a collective consciousness! Check out the Mirror Matter Theory of Lost. (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=46622) Could Jacob's chirality be reversed? What if your soul is really your mirror matter twin?

Tee hee, BM! Thanks for the link. I've always got mixed reactions to finding out that someone has already posted extensively on something that is taking shape in my mind. First, I'm sad because of the loss of primacy, but (more importantly) I'm excited because someone has had a chance to synthesize the ideas and write about them in terms of LOST (something you're particularly good at, BM.)

I love the idea that your soul is "your mirror matter twin"! The discussion in your linked thread about souls electromagnetically embedded in the material of the island was intriguing too. It's all very ouroboros, this quest for the mystery of LOST.

That said, I find that I'm both drawn in and repelled. I want to find answers, and especially love it when the quest becomes a dialog. But, crossing over the same ground so thoroughly explored by others, feels superflous. Anyway, I don't mean to get maudlin about it. Thanks so much for all your thought-provoking research and eloquent posts!

LOL -- we are officially a collective consciousness! Check out the Mirror Matter Theory of Lost. (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=46622) Could Jacob's chirality be reversed? What if your soul is really your mirror matter twin?

Also, koralis, I'm now slightly confused. You're suggesting that the whispers are ghosts who interact somehow with the Others? I can certainly dig this but am confused how Danielle's comments support this conclusion. Here's what she said to Sayid:

Hmm... yes the full quote does put a damper on Danielle knowing. Bah. Should have looked it up myself before posting. :) I DO think that the ghosts are whisperers that are working with the others (one of the whispers transcripts contains the line "Our brothers who help us") but ghosts can't be carriers of disease.

Oh, oh... I've got it! Carriers doesn't have to mean "carrier of disease!" If the ghosts/demons are capable of possession, then the body (of one of Ben's group) is a carrier!

I think Ben is holding Jacob's electromagnetic "ghost" prisoner in that remote house. Maybe He was once the leader of the Others and got killed during the hostilities. For a long time, Ben was the only one who could "hear" Jacob and thus tap his powerful psychic mind. But now Locke can too, which threatens Ben immensely. And what did Jacob say to Locke? "Help me..."

I once argued that the Lost Experience is a metaphor for what's happening on the show. Recall that the main plot line involved a dude of dubious origins (i.e., Mittelwerk) taking control of the Hanso Foundation and imprisoning old Alvar himself. That's basically what's happening on the Island now. Ben has seized control of Jacob's foundation, holding Him prisoner and speaking in His name.
Time to revisit this possibility in light of the S3 DVD commentary...

Oh Bigmouth! I'm glad you dug this up. Hearingvoices has started a thread called Souler Energy (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=86110) that is similar to this. I've posted there about Chi energy that also entails bioelectric magnetic energy. There has to be a tie-in to Jacob and the Swan hatch with all this.

A couple of quick thoughts:

First, is Ben a kind of mouthpiece for Jacob the way Aaron spoke for Moses? Is that why Jacob needs him -- at least until Locke comes along? No one else can hear Jacob...

Second, suppose some calamity happened on the Island in ancient times, burying its inhabitants under volcanic rock. What if the ghosts of these ancients survived? Maybe the energy Dharma released in the Incident was actually these ghosts...
Oh Bigmouth! I'm glad you dug this up. Hearingvoices has started a thread called Souler Energy (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=86110) that is similar to this. I've posted there about Chi energy that also entails bioelectric magnetic energy. There has to be a tie-in to Jacob and the Swan hatch with all this.
Cin: I'm crunched for time, but will definitely check out HV's thread. Thanks for the tip!

PS: Is Richard "possessed" by one of these ancient ghosts? Is that why he can't age?

Second, suppose some calamity happened on the Island in ancient times, burying its inhabitants under volcanic rock. What if the ghosts of these ancients survived? Maybe the energy Dharma released in the Incident was actually these ghosts...

Or, what if the waveforms or patterns that defined these people were contained within the released energy/field in some way?

This seems to be a relevant topic to post this catch. I was watching ATOTC earlier today, and in one of the scenes where Juliet is leaving her half of Jack's 'cell' (i think it may be the one where Juliet finally breaks Jack) the frame shows Jack sitting in the corner on the other side of the glass. In this shot, you see the reflection of someone in the glass as they start to stand from a cross-legged sitting position on the floor. The outline looks like Ben, but Ben isn't in the room during that scene. I'm watching this on the DVD, so I can't imagine it was left in there by accident. Those kinds of mistakes can be omitted digitally, a la the cobra in Raiders of the Lost Ark. At first glance it seems to only be Jack's reflection, but if you watch closely, it is not Jack at all. The reflection moves separately. Has anyone seen this, or has there been a discussion of it in the past?

42, I recall that
we had a spoiler about a scene with the little girl from the off-Island playground showing up in Jack's Island cell...but it wasn't canon and not in the epi (unless there was just a shadow.

Another whackadoo speculation to kick around. What if all these near death experiences we've seen on the show are actually cases of people being possessed by spirit energy from the Island? As you die, your spirit departs, allowing one of these Island "ghosts" to take its place. Is this why Juliet had to die on the way to the Island? What happened to Aaron while in utero?
Or, what if the waveforms or patterns that defined these people were contained within the released energy/field in some way?
HV: I can get down with that! Hauntings are associated with concentrations of electromagnetism. Some say this energy can somehow record a psychic imprint of people and events...
. The outline looks like Ben, but Ben isn't in the room during that scene. I'm watching this on the DVD, so I can't imagine it was left in there by accident. Those kinds of mistakes can be omitted digitally, a la the cobra in Raiders of the Lost Ark. At first glance it seems to only be Jack's reflection, but if you watch closely, it is not Jack at all. The reflection moves separately. Has anyone seen this, or has there been a discussion of it in the past?
42ndFloor: I don't yet have the S3 DVDs, so I can't verify. But I've often wondered if Ben can somehow project himself astrally through those monitors...
42, I recall that
we had a spoiler about a scene with the little girl from the off-Island playground showing up in Jack's Island cell...but it wasn't canon and not in the epi (unless there was just a shadow.
Tabby: That's *totally* what I thought of when I read 42ndFloor's post. See my comment above above -- do near-death experiences allow one to be possessed by Island spirits?

Tabby: That's *totally* what I thought of when I read 42ndFloor's post. See my comment above above -- do near-death experiences allow one to be possessed by Island spirits?
Hey Big:) The only problem with that example is that I think that
the playground scene with Jack saving that girl's life was never shown...so not canon. Unless I'm forgetting something...

Tabby: True, but it's consistent with what we've seen and thus highly suggestive. One wonders if it's an opportunity for some other spirit to step in to take the departing spirit's place. Could that be how "special" children are born? Did Walt have a near death experience as a child? We know that Aaron certainly did...

BM, along these lines, I'm wondering if that is what is going on with Locke. He seems like a different person on the island. Is it possible that, in a way, he really is a different person? The symbolism from Claire's dream of the white and black eye seems to suggest this as well. When Locke "lost faith" in the island, did this "spirit" temporarily forsake him? Was it looking for a better vehicle, or just trying to goad him into accomplishing the spirit's ends?

BM, along these lines, I'm wondering if that is what is going on with Locke. He seems like a different person on the island. Is it possible that, in a way, he really is a different person? The symbolism from Claire's dream of the white and black eye seems to suggest this as well. When Locke "lost faith" in the island, did this "spirit" temporarily forsake him? Was it looking for a better vehicle, or just trying to goad him into accomplishing the spirit's ends?

thats a nice interpretation hv, i think locke is definitely got something pulling his strings, just after he 'looked into the eye of the island' he caught the boar. if you listen to the soundtrack its actually smokey who kills the boar - you can hear it squeal as it runs into the moving trees. having accepted this 'offering' i think locke signed up to team island and has been used as a willing puppet ever since.

Question about the whispers. Did penyours and rvturnage transcribe the same, or similar stuff? Last I looked at part of it I thought I saw large discrepancies, however it was just a small portion of their work that I looked at.

BM, along these lines, I'm wondering if that is what is going on with Locke. He seems like a different person on the island. Is it possible that, in a way, he really is a different person?
Sure. I'm convinced by other evidence that there are two of "him". Probably one of them is bald, the other a "hairy man" who shaves to become a "smooth man".

BM, along these lines, I'm wondering if that is what is going on with Locke. He seems like a different person on the island. Is it possible that, in a way, he really is a different person? The symbolism from Claire's dream of the white and black eye seems to suggest this as well. When Locke "lost faith" in the island, did this "spirit" temporarily forsake him? Was it looking for a better vehicle, or just trying to goad him into accomplishing the spirit's ends?
HV: I wonder about Locke. My guess is that his "spirit" was replaced with one from the Island when Cooper pushed him out the window. The rebirth on the Island could be the result of this spirit returning home. I do, however, like your suggestion of his spirit forsaking him!
thats a nice interpretation hv, i think locke is definitely got something pulling his strings, just after he 'looked into the eye of the island' he caught the boar. if you listen to the soundtrack its actually smokey who kills the boar - you can hear it squeal as it runs into the moving trees. having accepted this 'offering' i think locke signed up to team island and has been used as a willing puppet ever since.
BL: I'm with you 100% on Smokey killing the boar. I feel like that encounter, Jack's with his father, and Eko's with Yemi are all attempts by Jacob to manipulate them. Locke just happens to be the most amenable to coercion...
Question about the whispers. Did penyours and rvturnage transcribe the same, or similar stuff? Last I looked at part of it I thought I saw large discrepancies, however it was just a small portion of their work that I looked at.
Jack: There are definitely discrepancies, and the whispers don't fit neatly into one category -- more like three or four with different agendas. I think the main point to take away is that the Island is haunted by whispers and apparitions of the dead.
Sure. I'm convinced by other evidence that there are two of "him". Probably one of them is bald, the other a "hairy man" who shaves to become a "smooth man".
Doc Suds: Sounds kinky...LOL!

Further thoughts after Episode 1 of season 4... I'm shocked that no one has travelled this road yet (that i've read!)


Lets stipulate that in this one instance Hurley was NOT seeing fictitious people as a result of mental delusion. Hurley actually saw the other patient, who told him about Charlie manifested and staring at him. Ok? So, we're left with:

1) The island can manifest the dead (or mockeries of the dead!) both on the island and in the "real world."

2) The island is using the Charlie manifestation to try to push Hugo into returning to the island to make things right... perhaps rescuing the island from the people on the freighter (not that the motive matters here.)


Now, if Charlie can appear to Hugo that way... Christian could have started appearing to Jack that way. In this episode Jack has it together... he's looking forward to work, clean-shaven, etc. A bit later (end of season 3) he's a wreck... drinking, taking prescription drugs on false signatures, is suicidal... claims that his dad is still alive and "upstairs."

Maybe Christian was haunting Jack to get him back to the island, and why Jack was at the end of his rope as he's discovering that he can't return despite his best efforts.


Many people agree that it was Christian Shepherd in the rocking chair in Jacob's cabin. A dead man rocking away with Jacob... when whispers are happening for hurley.


We've seen Christian before on the island in his white-white tennis shoes.

Now, if Charlie can appear to Hugo that way... Christian could have started appearing to Jack that way.

That's sort of what Hurley said to Jack in the mental hospital when he mentioned that "it" would do anything it could to get them to come back, I certainly thought that Hurley meant The Island when he said "it" and via Jacob/Smokey we know The Island can manifest the dead.

Many people agree that it was Christian Shepherd in the rocking chair in Jacob's cabin

You'd be mad not too, it was him...

Christian Shepherd (http://bp2.blogger.com/_8HhjIy50yEY/R6KepKLiPEI/AAAAAAAAAQU/B5x9-faA0pc/s1600-h/mr.shephard2.jpg)

Richardstone >
We know The Island can manifest the dead.


I still don't think there's any reason to believe the Manifestations are only of those who have died. There's no indication Kate's horse is dead. Hurley's Dave obviously can't be dead. Walt's apparitions, if they're the same thing, don't mean he's dead.

I still don't think there's any reason to believe the Manifestations are only of those who have died. There's no indication Kate's horse is dead. Hurley's Dave obviously can't be dead. Walt's apparitions, if they're the same thing, don't mean he's dead.

I didn't say it manifested the dead exclusively, I don't think Dave was a manifestation at all. :cool:

But I don't think their being dead is even relevant, personally. I think it's all just from Memory. You're not the only one who speaks of "manifesting the dead", some even think Smokey literally took Christian's body.

Dave could go either way, of course, but I think it would be overly confusing to have some "appearances" as Manifestations and others as Hurley's insanity. My guess is it was the exact same thing as Christian and Yemi.

But I don't think their being dead is even relevant, personally. I think it's all just from Memory. You're not the only one who speaks of "manifesting the dead", some even think Smokey literally took Christian's body.

I don't know what happened to Christian's corpse, what happened to Yemi's?

I'd agree that it's from memory, I've thought that for a long time, that's where it draws all it's imagery from, Charlie being in nice new clothes is something of a conundrum where that theory is concerned though, up until then manifestations (be they of people, living or dead, or even animals) turned up in exactly the same clothes they had on when they were last seen, the freshest memory if you will, in the case of Ben's mother she turns up dressed in the same way as the only image of her he has.

Dave could go either way, of course, but I think it would be overly confusing to have some "appearances" as Manifestations and others as Hurley's insanity. My guess is it was the exact same thing as Christian and Yemi.

Even during his stay in Santa Rosa before he gets to The Island? I still think that Dave was just Hurley's illness made manifest rather than a manifestation generated by The Island/Jacob/Smokey.

No, I imagine pre-Island Dave was Hurley's "imaginary friend", and that on Craphole Smokey has taken that Memory and Manifested it. It's the on-Island part that I think would blur the issue, if, I mean, Hurley was seeing Dave for reasons other than those behind the other Visions.

Great thoughts, guys!
Lets stipulate that in this one instance Hurley was NOT seeing fictitious people as a result of mental delusion. Hurley actually saw the other patient, who told him about Charlie manifested and staring at him. Ok?
koralis: I wonder about the other mental patient. Note how Charlie wasn't captured by the surveillance video just like Dave didn't show up in the polaroid. Mental illness often goes hand in hand with accounts of hauntings, as stories like Turn of the Screw suggest. Do you suppose Hurley's fellow patient sees dead people, too? Same is true of the kids -- maybe Jacob covets them because they can hear him more easily. In fact, are Alex and Carl channeling the Island's ghost when they rebel against Ben?
Maybe Christian was haunting Jack to get him back to the island, and why Jack was at the end of his rope as he's discovering that he can't return despite his best efforts.
Dude, that's brilliant!
We've seen Christian before on the island in his white-white tennis shoes.
I noticed that too -- so creepy!
That's sort of what Hurley said to Jack in the mental hospital when he mentioned that "it" would do anything it could to get them to come back, I certainly thought that Hurley meant The Island when he said "it" and via Jacob/Smokey we know The Island can manifest the dead.
Ricardo: I agree, though I personally see Jacob as synonymous with the "Island" at this point. I also think we should distinguish between the appearances of Christian and Yemi, which were both Jacob using Smokey to snatch bodies, and the appearances of Ana Lucia, Emily Linus, and Boone, which I believe were Jacob tapping the mind to create dreams and hallucinations.
But I don't think their being dead is even relevant, personally. I think it's all just from Memory. You're not the only one who speaks of "manifesting the dead", some even think Smokey literally took Christian's body.
Luc: Ineed -- and Yemi's, too. I also think Jacob himself is dead -- i.e., a ghost -- which is why he has such difficulty communicating. Don't forget, Richard asked Ben if his mother died on the Island. I tend to agree that visions of the dead are Jacob, particularly when they involve people who died off the Island (Duckett, Christian, etc.). But I'm less sure of examples like Ana Lucia, Boone, and now Charlie. Are they Jacob assuming the form of these individuals? Or can Jacob somehow command spirits suspended with him in the Island matrix?

That said, like you, I'm leaning towards a Solaris scenario where Jacob communicates by manifesting people from your memories. Death is only relevant insofar as it leaves a strong impression on the psyche. Interestingly, Jeremy Davis (i.e., the bearded dude) played Snow in Stephen Soderbergh's 2002 remake of Solaris. I know Gregg Nations prefers Andrei Tarkovsky's original, but I actually think the remake is more faithful to the themes and philosophical outlook of Stanislaw Lem's book.

Regardless, the influence of Solaris hangs heavily over this show. My whackadoo prediction: there will eventually be a scene where Jack encounters Christian in the cabin and kneels before his father as rain pours down...
No, I imagine pre-Island Dave was Hurley's "imaginary friend", and that on Craphole Smokey has taken that Memory and Manifested it. It's the on-Island part that I think would blur the issue, if, I mean, Hurley was seeing Dave for reasons other than those behind the other Visions.
That's entirely plausible and logical, but I have a different take. I think *both* Daves are examples of Jacob trying to communicate with Hurley, though I agree that was probably Smokey on the Island. I'm also hoping there's a connection lurking with Libby's dead husband, Dave.

That said, like you, I'm leaning towards a Solaris scenario where Jacob communicates by manifesting people from your memories. Death is only relevant insofar as it leaves a strong impression on the psyche.

BM, I wonder if, as you brought up earlier in your post, there is some significance to the distinction between having died on the island or off it. What if Jacob (or an equivalent) is able to manifest using memory as a source, while the island (or an equivalent) is able to manifest using the physical stuff of those who have died on the island?

Could be that Jacob learned this trick from the island, but isn't powerful enough to create full manifestations like the island. (or vice versa?) I wonder if this is what Mikhail is then? A true disciple of the island because he is a construct of the island itself? Maybe Radzinsky?

BM, i think the solaris angle is re-enforced by the appearance of CS in the 13th mobisode.

the manifestations are independent (both in actions and existence) from the mind from which they are 'extracted'.

I read about the possiblity of CS appearing to future jack over on the epi board and agree that it's a very likely scenario that would facilitate jack's deterioration into the bearded, suicidal addict we saw in TTLG

I'm not one to go in for Grand Unified Theories of Lost, but here's one I'm mulling over:
If indeed the Whispers are voices of the dead, they seem to parallel the idea of EVP (electronic voice phenomenon) recordings of strange voices that are believed to be spiritual in nature and perhaps be communications of ghosts or the dead.

...

So, I guess my theory is that all the paranormal activities in the island are related to the strong electomagnetic forces at work on the island.

I tend to agree on both fronts: I don't go in for Grand Unified Theories, yet clearly, these are the voices of the dead (they also function like Greek choruses, commenting on the action, even if we can't hear their commentary without the help of audio technology). The island has special geophysical magnetism. True north has been difficult to find. The Swan had some technologies that concentrated or modified electromagnetism, and once the key was turned, it appears, that electromagnetism discharged (is that the source of the higher-pitched voices or whispers when Hurley was near the shack--or the shack was near him?).

So I think its incredibly plausible, esp. given the connections you made, that the whispers are of the dead, channeled via electromagnetism--or via a technology, Philip K. Dick style.
100%
BM,

As I write this...I am in the sunken part of my living room. To the left are six door walls (glass) facing the pool which is surrounded by now bare tall trees facing the lake front...it is dusk...gray and dim light...the wind is blowing causing the trees to cast shadows into the living room...which out of the corner of my eye appear to be "things" moving about the room...I AM FREAKED OUT


Hello, I don't know you, but I have a great solution to your problem there in your house... I can move into your house with the huge wall of glass, and the pool, and the big trees, and you can move into my cramped urban row house, where you will feel very, very safe, because you will never be alone... Just kidding! :1smiling::harhar1::1smiling: Seriously, I felt the same way when I first read the transcripts...shiver...

A fellow(?) named romy made an elegant comment on my theory page. To paraphrase and extend it slightly:

Jacob may be so-named not so much because he is the patriarch, but because he is the bridge between Earth and the island, over which the angels travel (i.e., Jacob's ladder).

Referring to Jacob might be a way of referencing a collective or a communication line.

Seems to dovetail nicely with the thoughts here and in HV's most recent comments.

where is that post mike ?

sounds like something for the Angel Dimension thread too

where is that post mike ?

sounds like something for the Angel Dimension thread too

Off-site... here (http://mirrormattermoon.blogspot.com/2007/12/lost-on-earths-mirror-matter-moon.html#c5357247012834127333)

And yes (smacks head) definitely fits with the thread. :)

Great thoughts, guys!

koralis: I wonder about the other mental patient. Note how Charlie wasn't captured by the surveillance video just like Dave didn't show up in the polaroid. Mental illness often goes hand in hand with accounts of hauntings, as stories like Turn of the Screw suggest. Do you suppose Hurley's fellow patient sees dead people, too? Same is true of the kids -- maybe Jacob covets them because they can hear him more easily. In fact, are Alex and Carl channeling the Island's ghost when they rebel against Ben?


Note that Hurley also saw Christian in Jacob's cabin. No one was expecting him. The Island wasn't trying to tell him something by sending a vision... the most obvious conclusion I come to is... Hurley sees dead people.

Others might too. Like the other crazy patient.



Dude, that's brilliant!


Thank ya. :)




Ricardo: I agree, though I personally see Jacob as synonymous with the "Island" at this point. I also think we should distinguish between the appearances of Christian and Yemi, which were both Jacob using Smokey to snatch bodies, and the appearances of Ana Lucia, Emily Linus, and Boone, which I believe were Jacob tapping the mind to create dreams and hallucinations.


Yes, I do think there's something to the missing bodies element contrasted to the dream visitations.




Luc: Ineed -- and Yemi's, too. I also think Jacob himself is dead -- i.e., a ghost -- which is why he has such difficulty communicating. Don't forget, Richard asked Ben if his mother died on the Island. I tend to agree that visions of the dead are Jacob, particularly when they involve people who died off the Island (Duckett, Christian, etc.). But I'm less sure of examples like Ana Lucia, Boone, and now Charlie. Are they Jacob assuming the form of these individuals? Or can Jacob somehow command spirits suspended with him in the Island matrix?


I'm wondering if there are two forces at work... as suggested before with the "white smokey" that was attacking juliet/kate. Also Locke looked into the eye of the island twice... once was beautiful, the other terrifying. Maybe one swallows corpses and subsumes them into itself (and can push them back out), while the other merely mimics what you've already created in your mind.

It doesn't jive 100% though. Yemi showed up in a dream, not in body, etc.


That's entirely plausible and logical, but I have a different take. I think *both* Daves are examples of Jacob trying to communicate with Hurley, though I agree that was probably Smokey on the Island. I'm also hoping there's a connection lurking with Libby's dead husband, Dave.

Or dave has been his dead-friend the whole time, and the island decided to use that imagery to screw with hurley and get him to commit suicide... which he didn't. That was a definite "not good" island encounter, though I suppose the island may know that Hurley will be a thorn in its side later and tried to get rid of him early to head it off. But why then try to get him back? Again.. sounds like 2 different agents.

You know, I had a thought last night that chilled me... it answers too many questions. The first question that brought on this line of thinking, was "what happened to the bodies?" As I sat and pondered that, I thought... "Naomi said that everyone died on 815, what's up with that?" Then I thought, "Bigmouth suggested that Hurley could see dead people... hmmm."

An idea clicked... what if everyone on the island (well, Losties and natives anyway) is actually dead, but re-incarnated by virtue of the island for its own uses? Christian Shepherd's body isn't on the island because the island is a spiritual place... Christian's body is in exactly the same place that Jack's body is... at the bottom of the ocean in the 815 wreckage. What miracle allowed all of these Losties to survive the plane crash? The island selected them to be reborn. The island didn't select others.

How can Mikhail keep coming back over and over again? The island keeps granting him a new body because it still has uses for him.

Locke's question... why is everyone on the island super-healthy, except Ben? How did Rose's cancer get cured? How can Locke walk again? Because Ben is actually living... he "portaled" from the physical world to the spiritual world via the dharma transport through a portal... the looking-glass if you will. A transition from physical into the spiritual. The island can manipulate spirits, but it can't affect the living that way.

Why is Alpert perpetually young? He's a spirit, and the island keeps his body in peak shape just like it can cure "cancer", etc. Time has no meaning to the spiritual realm.

Why was Ben relieved that the sub was destroyed? Because the sub can't actually take them back to the physical realm... the sub is a sham. The island(/Jacob?) can manifest spirits back in the real world, but otherwise it's a one-way trip.

How did Juliete get to the island if the sub is a sham? The same way that Cooper got there... they killed her with the concoction that they injected her with.

What did Ben mean when he stated that the people on the freighter would kill everyone living on the island? He meant that the freighter people would kill HIM.

How can Hurley see dead people? He's dead himself. Maybe more than once. He may have died in the accident that landed him in the mental ward, only to have the island bring him back for future use... it knows the future too. Dave was another dead person that Hurley was seeing earlier.


No, this isn't quite the Purgatory scenario... in the purgatory scenario people that die go to a place to work out their issues. In this scenario it's an afterlife where the island is using people for its own agenda, gives people real physical bodies, etc. The island can also make people appear and vanish on a whim, or they can last pretty much forever.

People that die on the island stay dead... the producers said so, right? That pretty much mimics what Charlie said in episode 1 of season 4... Yes, I'm dead and yet I'm right here. Christian is dead, and he's right in the chair.


So what's the island's agenda? I'm leaning towards a refinement theory again... it has all of these spirits with their own problems, worries, etc. It wants to begin shaping the spirits into something greater than the sum of its parts. First they need to be harmonious... get rid of their past hangups, etc. Once that's happened, then they can join Cerberus.. the multi-headed guardian of the underworld.


There may be some kinks in the theory and I'm happy to hear them, but I think I've convinced myself. Lost is a more convoluted version of The Others where it's not merely a matter of being dead and not knowing it, but being used as pawns in some larger game that they don't know that they're playing.

No, they are not dead... until they are dead. But they are being used. Jacob or the island can use dead unburied bodies like Charlie's to inhabit.

No, they are not dead... until they are dead. But they are being used. Jacob or the island can use dead unburied bodies like Charlie's to inhabit

Would you like to back up the idea that they're not dead with a reason, or is this simply stating an opinion? (Which is fine... I just want to keep facts, theories, and feelings in 3 seperate categories.)

Have you noticed that other people who have died on the island are not seen the way that Yemi, Charlie, and Christian are ... as manifestations obviously not the real ghosts of these persons...the only thing they have in common... they were unburied.

Have you noticed that other people who have died on the island are not seen the way that Yemi, Charlie, and Christian are ... as manifestations obviously not the real ghosts of these persons...the only thing they have in common... they were unburied.

Ok. There may be a reason that Anna Lucia never shows up physically again, but even that's not certain. Locke said once that things that are buried on this island don't tend to stay buried. I think it was more than a casual comment.

In any case that doesn't address the point of unburied Jack, Hurley, etc, etc, being dead or not. I'm stipulating that they are dead from the 815 crash, but reincarnated just like Charlie was in the previous episode, and like Mikhail was repeatedly, for various purposes.

Is there any basis for the opinion that the must be non-dead, except that you've never seen them die firsthand?

And yes, I think the dead can die a second, or even third time... and each time the island can decide to bring them back or not. Most every time the answer is no as the subject is either found wanting (Eko, Ana Lucia, etc) or has found redemption (Shannon).. it's my working theory anyway. :)

I think we agree on one thing but not another. I understand that you think the Losties bodies are sitting on the ocean floor, but I think that th eplane actually crashed on the island. I do think that Desmond, Charlotte Malkin, Charlie, Eko, and Locke were all killed but were "sent back." We seem to agree with this but maybe not the why they were sent back.

Secondly, I believe that only unburied bodies can be used by the malevolent force on the island" or the "it" Hurley speaks of that wants the Ocean 6 back.

Don't forget cremated bodies.

What did Ben mean when he stated that the people on the freighter would kill everyone living on the island? He meant that the freighter people would kill HIM.



Though I'm not yet onboard with your whole theory, I do think that odd redundancy--Ben saying "every living person on this island will be killed"-- means something.

Related: does anyone else think that the final episode of Missing Pieces, in which we autonomously see Christian Shepard on the island, is a mind blower?! It means he was not a figment of Jack's consciousness, or even a manifestation of the smoke monster.

Lordy I'm confused. Happy, but confused.:confused: :)
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I've noticed that many seem to cling to psuedo-scientific reasons for the happenings on the island.

Is psuedo-science anything like psuedo-spelling? Just joking. LOST is a sci-fi sort of endeavor, and the 'fi' part is license to bend the rules, but imo, more accurate science = always better. So please tell us what parts you see as pseudo?


Separate but related:

I love this 4-D bubble business. Do you think this idea might mesh with the Looking-Glass-As-Portal theory in some way? Not to mix theoretical physics terms I barely understand (see above), but might the Looking Glass be a sort of event horizon for such a zero-time bubble?

Related: does anyone else think that the final episode of Missing Pieces, in which we autonomously see Christian Shepard on the island, is a mind blower?! It means he was not a figment of Jack's consciousness, or even a manifestation of the smoke monster.

I still think he is dead...and his consciousness went to the island which is a soul-catcher or well of souls and through Dharma technology, he is transferred into another body.

If this is true then reincarnation is possible... and Charlie may yet be reborn.

I'm not sure I understand how he could be dead and in another body if we see him DIRECTLY (i.e., not through the eyes of Jack or anyone else) and he still looks just like Christian, white tennies and all. Am I missing something?:confused:

We saw him through the eyes of Vincent....weird, huh?

Exactly. Please tell me we can trust Vincent's POV... if I have to take into account possible subconscious/wishful-thinking/unresolved-issues type of sightings for a DOG, well, I give up!
:eek2: :rolleyes: :biggrin:

We saw him through the eyes of Vincent....weird, huh?
Exactly. Please tell me we can trust Vincent's POV... if I have to take into account possible subconscious/wishful-thinking/unresolved-issues type of sightings for a DOG, well, I give up!
:eek2: :rolleyes: :biggrin:
LOL...you have to be able to trust your dog. :biggrin:

That said, we've suspected Vincent of being a spy/robot/sci-fi-being/angel for 3+ years around here... ;) But more recently, we know about Jacob, so now we can think about him using Vincent's body... :biggrin:

I hope that the "So It Begins" Missing Piece wasn't just a nod to the fans who want a Vincent-centric epi...and way more info about his "role" in the story...

Maybe Jacob's dog (in the painting) is using Vincent's body? :biggrin:

Was Christian buried in those clothes?

I think Walt can use Vincent's body....

remember the Retriever's of Truth website?
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It seems likely that Vincent is himself after the crash... or ... is that really Vincent?

No, but the RoT website implied that dogs are in fact just another vehicle for intelligent consciousness...

Maybe Jacob's dog (in the painting) is using Vincent's body? :biggrin:
Oh, that's rich...you're killin' me, CQ! I love it... :biggrin:

LOL...you have to be able to trust your dog. :biggrin:

That said, we've suspected Vincent of being a spy/robot/sci-fi-being/angel for 3+ years around here... ;)

Yeah, I've definitely heard some of that stuff on various podcasts, etc., but I'm not a subscriber. Like you said, you have to be able to trust your dog... and, if you're me, trust that dogs are just dogs (they're perfect as they are!). Otherwise we have to start questioning all manner of absurd things... maybe the bodies of the flock of seagulls were being used by the soul of an '80s one-hit wonder band...?

Okay, I'll stop.:) I can sometimes be a notorious thread hijacker, but I don't mean any harm.:redface: :hypocrit:

PS, yes I think Christian was buried in those clothes.

BM, I wonder if, as you brought up earlier in your post, there is some significance to the distinction between having died on the island or off it. What if Jacob (or an equivalent) is able to manifest using memory as a source, while the island (or an equivalent) is able to manifest using the physical stuff of those who have died on the island?
HV: To clarify, are you attributing independent agency to the Island? I tend to think any time Locke speaks in terms of the Island doing X, he's really referring to Jacob. To my mind, therefore, the operative distinction is between Jacob by himself and when he's in possession of Smokey. In the latter case, Jacob can assume physical form by snatching bodies.
A true disciple of the island because he is a construct of the island itself? Maybe Radzinsky?
I think Mikhail, like most Others except Ben, is devoted to Jacob, first and foremost. But I love the notion that Mikhail and Richard might be physical manifestations of the Island/Jacob. That would explain their loyalty and immortality...
the manifestations are independent (both in actions and existence) from the mind from which they are 'extracted'.
BL: To clarify, does Island Christian (or Island Yemi) really think he's Christian Shepard? Or is it Jacob simply using an avatar generated from the subject's memories? Stated another way, are these physical manifestations somehow conscious?
(they also function like Greek choruses, commenting on the action, even if we can't hear their commentary without the help of audio technology).
onelittlenumber: That's the original inspiration for the title of this thread!
Jacob may be so-named not so much because he is the patriarch, but because he is the bridge between Earth and the island, over which the angels travel (i.e., Jacob's ladder).
Mike: Can't it be both, like the late Earl Warren? Now who's being naive...LOL! Seriously, though, I completely agree with the Jacob's ladder analogy to the Island. Interesting how one man's ladder to heaven is another's chute to hell...
Referring to Jacob might be a way of referencing a collective or a communication line.
I like that! Say a bit more, if you would...
An idea clicked... what if everyone on the island (well, Losties and natives anyway) is actually dead, but re-incarnated by virtue of the island for its own uses? Christian Shepherd's body isn't on the island because the island is a spiritual place... Christian's body is in exactly the same place that Jack's body is... at the bottom of the ocean in the 815 wreckage. What miracle allowed all of these Losties to survive the plane crash? The island selected them to be reborn. The island didn't select others.
koralis: Oh, very cool! This was one my first impressions ("http://eyemsick.blogspot.com/2004/10/resurrected.html"/) of the show, as well. Jack did say to Kate in the Pilot that "we all died yesterday." I'm curious, though, what you make of the Marshall, whom I mention in the post, or the guy whose fracture Libby fixes.
So what's the island's agenda? I'm leaning towards a refinement theory again... it has all of these spirits with their own problems, worries, etc. It wants to begin shaping the spirits into something greater than the sum of its parts. First they need to be harmonious... get rid of their past hangups, etc. Once that's happened, then they can join Cerberus.. the multi-headed guardian of the underworld.
Interesting...I have a slightly different take on the refinement aspect. It seems to me that a recipient's subconscious impulses interfere with Jacob's attempts to communicate. Refinement is simply a means to the end of clearer communication with Jacob.
Have you noticed that other people who have died on the island are not seen the way that Yemi, Charlie, and Christian are ... as manifestations obviously not the real ghosts of these persons...the only thing they have in common... they were unburied.
simone: Verrry interesting!
Ok. There may be a reason that Anna Lucia never shows up physically again, but even that's not certain. Locke said once that things that are buried on this island don't tend to stay buried. I think it was more than a casual comment.
koralis: Ah, good catch! Also given that Smokey can uproot trees, it seems odd that he would be phased by buried bodies.
Don't forget cremated bodies.
jane: I think you've nailed it! I've always thought we were shown that funeral scene for a reason...
Related: does anyone else think that the final episode of Missing Pieces, in which we autonomously see Christian Shepard on the island, is a mind blower?! It means he was not a figment of Jack's consciousness, or even a manifestation of the smoke monster.
FUTURE PAINT: It was definitely a mindblower! I tend to think that was actually Jacob taking Christian's form. It reminded me of Eko's confrontation with Yemi (whom I believe was Smokey). Recall that Eko said, "you speak to me *as if* you are my brother"...
I love this 4-D bubble business. Do you think this idea might mesh with the Looking-Glass-As-Portal theory in some way? Not to mix theoretical physics terms I barely understand (see above), but might the Looking Glass be a sort of event horizon for such a zero-time bubble?
Take a gander at Somewhere Over the Rainbow ("http://eyemsick.blogspot.com/2006/06/somewhere-over-rainbow.html"/) for one possible take on a 4-D spacetime bubble. I tend to think the Looking Glass was to prevent communication with the outside world...

Simone, Future Paint, Seaquest, and Tabby: Don't forget Locke's story about his sister being reincarnated as a dog. I tend to think the picture of the dog in Jacob's cabin was to set up some character (Aaron? Jack? Locke?) as a reincarnation of Jacob.
I hope that the "So It Begins" Missing Piece wasn't just a nod to the fans who want a Vincent-centric epi...and way more info about his "role" in the story...
My guess would be that this storyline is geared towards those who have been clamoring for a Christian resurrection...
Maybe Jacob's dog (in the painting) is using Vincent's body?
seaquest: LOL! Or maybe Jacob is using Christian's body?
Was Christian buried in those clothes?
yes I think Christian was buried in those clothes.
Bingo!

HV: To clarify, are you attributing independent agency to the Island? I tend to think any time Locke speaks in terms of the Island doing X, he's really referring to Jacob. To my mind, therefore, the operative distinction is between Jacob by himself and when he's in possession of Smokey. In the latter case, Jacob can assume physical form by snatching bodies.

BM, I hesitate to view the island as agent, but there is certainly ambiguity about that (from TTLG):

MIKHAIL: The Island told you it was necessary for you to jam your own people?
BEN: Yes it did. You've always been a loyalist, Mikhail, now I'm asking you to trust me, to trust Jacob who told me to do this.
MIKHAIL: Why would Jacob ask you to lie to your own people?

That sounds like Jacob is a mouthpiece for the island, doesn't it? My thinking was more along the lines that Jacob might manipulate people with false memories and/or hallucinations, while the island (perhaps via the quantum spontaneity that is its essential property) "provides" an avenue for "souls" to re-inhabit corpses. Not necessarily the corpses they "occupied" in "life", mind you.

I wonder if Jacob's relationship to the Island is like Decker's relationship to V'ger in Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Or maybe Ilia's relationship to V'ger.

The fact that Smoky stays out of Banyan groves I think is significant. Smoky will uproot other trees, but not Banyans. Why is that? Seems to me that Banyans are important to the life of the Island. Does part of the Island consciousness reside or depend on these special World Trees?

Hmmm, now I'm thinking of Speaker for the Dead, and how the consciousness of the piggies is transformed from their dead bodies into the trees which are the next stage of their evolution. It's like the Moth metaphor, how the caterpillar pretty much dissolves in the cocoon, reforms and becomes something new, something which can fly.

So, thinking about how Christian Shephard is dead, yet still there... or how Charlie Pace is dead, but also there... Maybe they really are dead, they've "dissolved", and yet they've somehow reconstituted into a new life form, a life form somewhat resembling who they used to be but yet "reborn" into something new...

That sounds like Jacob is a mouthpiece for the island, doesn't it? My thinking was more along the lines that Jacob might manipulate people with false memories and/or hallucinations, while the island (perhaps via the quantum spontaneity that is its essential property) "provides" an avenue for "souls" to re-inhabit corpses. Not necessarily the corpses they "occupied" in "life", mind you.
HV: Hmmm...I interpret those lines to suggest that Jacob and the Island are interchangeable. The Island is simply a tool that Jacob utilizes to effectuate his will. But I certainly see your point -- they could be suggesting there's a disconnect between Jacob and the Island. I'll have to mull this further...
I wonder if Jacob's relationship to the Island is like Decker's relationship to V'ger in Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Or maybe Ilia's relationship to V'ger.
Jane: Love that analogy! Which reminds me, have you read Solaris or seen either film adaptation? If not, do not pass go, and do not collect $200 -- read or watch Solaris posthaste. I think you will find much food for thought along these lines...
The fact that Smoky stays out of Banyan groves I think is significant. Smoky will uproot other trees, but not Banyans. Why is that? Seems to me that Banyans are important to the life of the Island. Does part of the Island consciousness reside or depend on these special World Trees?
Verrrry interesting!
Hmmm, now I'm thinking of Speaker for the Dead, and how the consciousness of the piggies is transformed from their dead bodies into the trees which are the next stage of their evolution. It's like the Moth metaphor, how the caterpillar pretty much dissolves in the cocoon, reforms and becomes something new, something which can fly.
Oh, very, very cool! Believe it or not, "Speaker for the Dead" was my original working title for "The Cancer Man's Con." (http://eyemsick.blogspot.com/2008/01/cancer-mans-con.html) BTW, I seem to recall reading that Orson Scott Card is a big Lost fan!

I think the Banyan tree thing is likely just a prop issue-- the Banyan trees are real and the crew doesn't rip them up; instead they use generic-looking trees for that. But who knows.

Maybe I am just talking to myself here but I'm trying to make a connection between the idea of dead/souls and one of multi-dimensions. To my way of thinking, the island is a wormhole in the sense that it is a place where space-time has been folded and thus provides an anomalous connection. The Looking Glass is a piece of Dharma technology designed to make easier use of the island as a portal. The whispers are echoes from one side of the fold to the other, sometimes from entities that are passing through/by unknowingly, sometimes from entities that are there intentionally. I think Jacob is trapped in the fold and that that is his real 'power'. I think it is Ben who has cast Jacob as an all-seeing leader when really he (Jacob) is lost/caught between two dimensions.

Does that make any sense? I would post this as a theory in a new thread but I suspect I'm not the first to have suggested this (or something like it). Thoughts?

___

Okay, never mind; I'm just going to start that new thread after all.

BL: To clarify, does Island Christian (or Island Yemi) really think he's Christian Shepard? Or is it Jacob simply using an avatar generated from the subject's memories? Stated another way, are these physical manifestations somehow conscious?



well, i think so BM, to me it was significant that we saw CS talking to Vincent in the mobisode because this means he has existence and purpose beyond the immediate viscinity of Jack. If jacob/smokey/the island had wanted to talk directly to vincent, wouldnt he have appeared as walt or something?
if you remember, in Solaris, once the physical manifestations were created, they were there continuously, they existed in every sense, and they were virtually indestructable.

Jane - i did some research of the banyan tree a while back and found out that it is a 'tree of life/axis mundi' symbol but also check this out

http://www.banyan-project.de/banyan.html


Tree of immortal refuge
The vat or banyan tree is one of the most venerated trees in India. Because of its ability to survive and grow for centuries, it is often compared to the shelter given by God to his devotees. It also symbolises the personality of a benevolent ruler or head of family who nourishes and looks after all those under his care. Its large leaf is a motif commonly used in worship, rituals and festive sacrifices. The Banyan tree is mentioned in many scriptures as a tree of immortality.

how cool is that :)

I don't see Jacob as the island. Of course, it's likely that I'm wrong and Jacob is synonymous with the island or at least controls it. Do we have enough information to tell the difference?


... I love the notion that Mikhail and Richard might be physical manifestations of the Island/Jacob. That would explain their loyalty and immortality...

Interesting, but I get the feeling Richard's and Mikhail's situations might be different..
yet the fact that Mikhail didn't die and the fact that Desmond, Charlie, Locke, and Eko should have died when the Swan imploded, makes me think something intervened in their deaths or brought them back. Who or what could do that? If Jacob, what's the motivation?

Also before that when Charlie is hanged by Ethan... still a mysterious happening...Charlie revived but had amnesia (on the first two occasions of his demise). And lastly when Locke is shot by Ben he seems to be able to get up and keep on ticking.

(all together now)

hello!

So now we have an authentic medium on the island that talks with ghosts, deliberately chosen to be part of the team that went there. That certainly gives the ol' chorus of the dead theory a shot in the arm. :)

So now we have an authentic medium on the island that talks with ghosts, deliberately chosen to be part of the team that went there. That certainly gives the ol' chorus of the dead theory a shot in the arm. :)

I know, cool. The theorists who refused to buy the ghost story are probably rethinking their ideas...

Has anybody mentioned the episode of Star Trek TOS titled "Spock's Brain" in connection with Lost? There is the idea of an underground, there are "the Others" and a division between males and females... check it out Spock's Brain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spock%27s_Brain)

If there's something weird, in your Island wood, who you gonna call? Ghostbusters! I was just about to jump ship and embrace the Solaris explanation for every appearance of the dead except Jacob, who I really believe is a ghost. But Miles basically confirms the ghost angle -- I loved how he described Naomi as a slab of meat after her soul departed. Is the Island some kind of accumulator for what hearingvoices calls soular energy? A capacitor of the dead?

What if Walt is channeling the souls of dead folks when he taps natural energy of the Island?

i guess if god cant see the island then there is no place for the souls to go - there must be quite an accumulation of them by now....

If there's something weird, in your Island wood, who you gonna call? Ghostbusters! I was just about to jump ship and embrace the Solaris explanation for every appearance of the dead except Jacob, who I really believe is a ghost. But Miles basically confirms the ghost angle -- I loved how he described Naomi as a slab of meat after her soul departed. Is the Island some kind of accumulator for what hearingvoices calls soular energy? A capacitor of the dead?

What if Walt is channeling the souls of dead folks when he taps natural energy of the Island?


All of the brain scanning that goes on... it could just be the island determining who in their past could influence them, and then it summons their souls to the island. For instance, Ben's mom died off the island yet was selected to speak with him.

Here's a portion of the whisper transcript from the scene with Ben and his mom... apparently the mom to other ghosts/etc....
http://lostwhispering.blogspot.com/
1.(..tell you) I'm glad you decided to see me/ to send me/to send him(10)
2. Because I love him (12.6)

Right before Harper appeared to Juliette in the jungle, the whispers quite clearly said "Lazarus."

Haper materialized, delivered her message to someone that can't normally communicate in spirit-speak, and vanished pretty much in front of Jack's eyes.


Further verification of the "Many of the people on this island are dead" theory. And if spirits linger on, is it any wonder that Ben has no problem killing everyone off with poison gas to protect the island?

Right before Harper appeared to Juliette in the jungle, the whispers quite clearly said "Lazarus."

Haper materialized, delivered her message to someone that can't normally communicate in spirit-speak, and vanished pretty much in front of Jack's eyes.


Further verification of the "Many of the people on this island are dead" theory. And if spirits linger on, is it any wonder that Ben has no problem killing everyone off with poison gas to protect the island?
koralis: Oh, very cool with the Lazarus whisper!

When I first saw Harper in the jungle, I turned to my friend and said, "she's dead." I figured it was really Jacob using Smokey to assume her form. It appears, however, that Harper is still alive. That doesn't exclude Jacob's involvement, especially since Smokey seemed to scan Juliet in Left Behind. But you'd think he'd use Goodwin's ghost to communicate her. The more likely explanation, therefore, is that Ben sent Harper because he wants to initiate another Purge...

On a related note, was that Harper's physical form or an astral projection? The whispers that preceded her sudden appearance reminded me of similar whispers heard right before Wet Walt appeared to Shannon and when Taller Ghost Walt ordered Locke out of the ditch. And if it was astral projection, are we sure it was really Harper?

koralis: Oh, very cool with the Lazarus whisper!

When I first saw Harper in the jungle, I turned to my friend and said, "she's dead." I figured it was really Jacob using Smokey to assume her form. It appears, however, that Harper is still alive.

Just because Harper was alive when Juliette came to the island doesn't mean that she's still alive. She may be, but it's hardly conclusive... smokey could have killed her for instance, or Harper could have been one of the people that the Losties killed on the way to getting captured by Ben.

The "long time no see" line implies to me that she was dead.




On a related note, was that Harper's physical form or an astral projection? The whispers that preceded her sudden appearance reminded me of similar whispers heard right before Wet Walt appeared to Shannon and when Taller Ghost Walt ordered Locke out of the ditch. And if it was astral projection, are we sure it was really Harper?


Not neccessarily, no. One poster made a fairly convincing arguement that "Harper" seemed to have a lot of Ben's mannerisms and patterns of speech. Could be....

If it's ben... is he puppet-mastering a spirit, projecting a different image than his own, or ?

why was juliets reaction the way it was if she knew that Harper had already died...

wouldn't she be more surprised than "long time no see"

having said that, my first reaction was that Harper wasn't "really" there... that Ben was controlling that interaction...

does anyone know if we've seen Harper in any of the GROUP shots we had when ben was leading his people through the jungle.

I definitely got the feeling that Harper was dead. Whether what Juliet saw was a Ben-controlled Smokey manifestation or an anomaly-related dimensional shift, I couldn't guess.

I wish I could say I hear "Lazarus" in the most current whispers but I really don't. Listen here and see what you think. Maybe it's my limited equipment but this time al I hear is a bunch of s-shh-ss-sh-ing, whether backwards or forwards.

For my money, the content of the whispers matters less (in this case, anyway) than the course of events: 1.whispers, 2. Harper appears, 3. more whispers, 4. Harper disappears.

why was juliets reaction the way it was if she knew that Harper had already died...
wouldn't she be more surprised than "long time no see"

Not if she's used to seeing dead people bringing messages probably. Not that she couldn't be alive, but Miles certainly doesn't seem phased about dead people as one example... once you accept it as a matter-of-course it's no longer shocking.






I wish I could say I hear "Lazarus" in the most current whispers but I really don't. Listen here and see what you think. Maybe it's my limited equipment but this time al I hear is a bunch of s-shh-ss-sh-ing, whether backwards or forwards..

I heard it quite clearly on my bose surround speakers, playing forwards. "Lazarus" was in a deeper booming voice than the normal "whisper" shhshshing. It was right when Juliet was spinning around and before Harper appears onscreen for the first time. Edit: relistened last night... still there, but my memory of the qualities was wrong. Not a deeper sound, just "stonger" and more noticable.

Pythagoreas in the Whisper thread says he hears it too, but disagrees that it's "lazarus" instead insisting that it's hebrew apparently. *cough*

You didn't provide a link so that I could listen on my cheap headphones and see if there's a difference? :)

You didn't provide a link so that I could listen on my cheap headphones and see if there's a difference? :)

D'oh! Sorry. I can't even remember which link I was using, but I'll let you whisper-hearers battle it out, since I can very rarely hear what's in there even with transcripts provided. Carry on!

I also got the impression Harper could be dead... but given the timeline it would have had to have happened after Goodwin died (which day he die on?)

I also got the feeling that the whispers were related to her appearing and vanishing so quickly. The whispers might be heard when a person is being transported with the machine that the whispers refer to.

If Harper is dead, maybe this machine projects an image or holograph that is computer generated. Of course, this could be the case whether Harper is alive or not.

The Valis Reference could be because the island is a machine that allows communication between the dead and living.

I also got the impression Harper could be dead... but given the timeline it would have had to have happened after Goodwin died (which day he die on?)

Probably. The most likely scenario is that she was one of Bens group that was tailing the losties as they went to "rescue" michael and walt. The losties killed several watchers on the way there.

But. Try this on for wacky theory... Goodwin had mentioned sleeping on the couch for a month. Maybe she'd already been dead that long and had lost interest at that point. ;)



I also got the feeling that the whispers were related to her appearing and vanishing so quickly. The whispers might be heard when a person is being transported with the machine that the whispers refer to.

There's definitely a correlation between the whispers and the manifestation of watchers. How or why, we don't know. Following the Chorus of the Dead philosophy, the whispers may include background-hum from the afterlife that people can overhear when the gateway opens.

What machine are you referring to? links? I don't recall that.

Or maybe there is no opening and closing gateway, and no machine, and no difference between the whisperers and the watchers. Maybe it's a bunch of varyingly confused beings who inhabit the anomaly that is the island, commenting on the action, parrying with each other, using terms (such as 'the machine,' which I'm guessing is Smokey) they've made up to describe the odd situation they're in.

I gotta go with those who believe Harper is still alive -- Juliet just doesn't seem surprised enough to see her. But I also like koralis's suggestion that Harper might have died en route.

So when else have we heard whispers preceding someone's appearance? Walt was one example -- someone else mentioned just before the Others attacked Michael, Jack, and Co. in S2. Hurley at Jacob's cabin is another instance.

We should also keep in mind that the whispers also told Danielle to kidnap Aaron when the Others' target was Walt. It makes no sense as misdirection because the latter's capture took place at sea. Also, no Others were waiting for Danielle. This seems to imply that at least some whispers don't share the Others' agenda. I keep coming back to Jacob...

PS: If that wasn't Harper, but rather a projection, what an odd choice of avatars. It's almost like whoever sent her wanted Juliet to mistrust her message...

PS: If that wasn't Harper, but rather a projection, what an odd choice of avatars. It's almost like whoever sent her wanted Juliet to mistrust her message...

Interesting point...if Ben sent Harper then he could have sent ayone...why Harper?

Harper hates Juliet..so she might give misinformation...but she knows Juliet and how she ticks.

Harper hates Juliet..so she might give misinformation...but she knows Juliet and how she ticks.
simone: Hmmm...good point! Of course, if Jacob/Smokey snatched Harper, it would have that same info. If Jacob doesn't want everyone dead, maybe he picked Harper to raise doubts. No matter how you slice it, there seems to be some reverse psychology at work...

ETA: What if the Others are attacked by Smokey on the way to the Temple? Maybe that's when Harper dies, which would explain why Juliet isn't surprised to see her.

To interject —

Maybe it was Harper because she's adept at projection (presumably being a psychologist and all).

Interesting point...if Ben sent Harper then he could have sent ayone...why Harper?



Who better? As the flashbacks showed, the very presence of Harper would allow Ben to say to Juliet: I know you're betraying me with Jack just like you did with Goodwin, and I can do the same thing this time as I did last time, because I am in control no matter what you do. As Juliet said, "he knew just how to get to me".

Who better? As the flashbacks showed, the very presence of Harper would allow Ben to say to Juliet: I know you're betraying me with Jack just like you did with Goodwin, and I can do the same thing this time as I did last time, because I am in control no matter what you do. As Juliet said, "he knew just how to get to me".
FP: Ah...that makes perfect sense. Good thinking!

One poster made a fairly convincing arguement that "Harper" seemed to have a lot of Ben's mannerisms and patterns of speech.

That'd put an interesting twist on the the apparitions that the Losties have seen, especially the ones that spoke (such as Ana Lucia.) I find myself wondering if there is a coincidence between Ben getting out of the basement and the appearance of Harper? Is this why Ben was so ready to make a deal with Locke, so he could get above ground to "broadcast" apparitions?

the very presence of Harper would allow Ben to say to Juliet: I know you're betraying me with Jack just like you did with Goodwin, and I can do the same thing this time as I did last time, because I am in control no matter what you do. As Juliet said, "he knew just how to get to me".

Great insight, FP. And very classic Ben. Just like he practically shouted "you're mine" to Juliet, such heavy-handed tactics would fit right in with his jealous-schoolboy mentality. IMO, Ben hasn't progressed much past teenage in his emotional development... That possesive jealousy was a hallmark of Prospero in the Tempest.

Though Ben's projection (or Harper's ghost) has a strange ability to incorporate the weather into their image... or Harper was there.

Very true, Simone-- whatever state Harper is in and however she got there, she's certainly corporeal.

I'll admit I'm very confused about the whispers v. hallucinations v. Smokey v. Ben's abilities to call people into being in various contexts. Since simple always feels best to me, I'm still sticking (for now) with the theory that they're all different manifestations of the same phenomenon, i.e.,

1. the anomaly/island is a place where the past, present and future coexist, meaning that anyone who ever encountered the island in a bodily form (even as a corpse, such as Yemi and Christian) is in effect eternally, actively there, and

2. Dharma and/or the original Others learned how to communicate with beings in such a state, an example of which is that Ben has 'people' helping him on the island who are not really 'alive' in the sense we've come to understand.


But that's all terribly vague, obviously. :rolleyes:
100%
PS, there's a VERY juicy official audio podcast (http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index?pn=podcast#t=3421)(3/10) that will get your brain cranking even harder on these topics! I *think* it bolsters what I wrote in point 1., above, but who knows...

Here's the thing that's bothering me. If that really was Harper, how did she know to bring Juliet a message from Ben? He's been Locked up this whole time in Otherville. At a minimum, there's some kind of psychic contact at work.
I find myself wondering if there is a coincidence between Ben getting out of the basement and the appearance of Harper? Is this why Ben was so ready to make a deal with Locke, so he could get above ground to "broadcast" apparitions?
HV: I like that speculation!
Though Ben's projection (or Harper's ghost) has a strange ability to incorporate the weather into their image... or Harper was there.
simone: LOL! Maybe it's raining wherever Harper's physical body is at the moment? Also, don't forget that Walt was all wet when he appeared to Shannon.
2. Dharma and/or the original Others learned how to communicate with beings in such a state, an example of which is that Ben has 'people' helping him on the island who are not really 'alive' in the sense we've come to understand.
FP: Bingo! The dead can transcend space and time, just like in HG Wells. I'll explain further in a subsequent post..

I'm still trying to figure out the whispers (http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Whisper_transcripts#Little_Benjamin_at_the_sonar_f ence_.28night.29) around little Ben at the sonar fence at night.

Jacob, whether a ghost, an angel, a guy stuck in the void, or a person living in another realm is not so nice. The few whispers you can attribute to him, definitely make him sound the way Ben described him to Locke...as the kind of man you don't drop in on, but the kind of man who summons you.

The strange thing is... what can Jacob DO to Ben? If Jacob asked Locke for help, and Ben shot Locke because Locke heard Jacob (jealousy issues) and nothing happened to Ben.. what can Jacob DO? Did Jacob "heal" Locke? Did Jacob cause Ben's cancer?(Was that why Juliet said to Amelia, "Something bad is coming." when pulling out the envelope's contents? Assuming the contents were an x-ray of Ben's spine).

Does anybody have any thoughts on Jacob's role in what's going on with the Others?

This is off-topic, I know, but can I just say that every time I read the title of this thread (a thread I like very much, obviously) I always think, Chariots Of the Gods? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_of_the_Gods%3F) That was the name of a book and a TV special that came out in the early 1970s, and the title question, posed in one's best Rod Serling voice, became humorous shorthand in my (very skeptical) family for any BS-based explanation of things (e.g., "Hey, there were three cookies here a minute ago-- hmm... CHARIOTS OF THE GODS?!?") and it always makes me laugh...

Carry on...:)

Oh, and back on topic: Simone I'm not sure that Jacob can do anything in particular to Ben. I think it's more that Ben needs Jacob for information/access, and he has somehow trapped Jacob for that purpose. If someone (like Locke or Hurley) can release Jacob from his odd state, Ben loses control.

simone: LOL! Maybe it's raining wherever Harper's physical body is at the moment? Also, don't forget that Walt was all wet when he appeared to Shannon.

FP: Bingo! The dead can transcend space and time, just like in HG Wells. I'll explain further in a subsequent post..

Good point about the water on Walt. Harper is alive and Walt is alive... maybe they have found a way to breathe underwater, swim under the island and pop up through hatches under the jungle.

I like to think of Jacob as a djinni in a bottle. Ben controls the bottle, so Jacob must obey and can not directly attack his master. However, there's nothing preventing the djinni from trying to trick his master into bad things happening, or orchestrating some indirect problems (like curing Locke's paralysis so that he can confront Ben later.)

To bring it back on topic... Anne Rice had a book called Servant of the Bones that dealt with a spirit that was trapped in his bones by way of an ancient jewish ritual, etc. Whoever contolled the bones controlled the spirit.

Makes ya think about all of those bones in the Dharma-pit doesn't it?

I wonder why the skeletons in the polar bear cave and the Adam and Eve skeletons are all weraing Pearl Station clothes. What happened at the Pearl that made all of these people run for the caves?

I'm also still convinced that the pit of bodies has been left uncovered for a reason, and that it hasn't been disproven that only unburried bodies can be "projected"

Makes ya think about all of those bones in the Dharma-pit doesn't it?

I wonder why the skeletons in the polar bear cave and the Adam and Eve skeletons are all weraing Pearl Station clothes. What happened at the Pearl that made all of these people run for the caves?

I'm also still convinced that the pit of bodies has been left uncovered for a reason, and that it hasn't been disproven that only unburried bodies can be "projected"What if the Whispers are the dead people in the pit that Locke was in? I don't know how their consciousnesses escaped or whatnot, but perharps the Island drew them out of the bodies? The machine that the Whisperers are talking about might also have the ability to draw out the consciousnesses...

This discussion reminds me of the whole Nikki and Paulo situation being buried alive. And, of course, Locke's related comment that nothing stays buried on the Island...

It's stretching it, but maybe a lot of the Others ARE dead already. Somehow?

What if the Whispers are the dead people in the pit that Locke was in? I don't know how their consciousnesses escaped or whatnot, but perharps the Island drew them out of the bodies? The machine that the Whisperers are talking about might also have the ability to draw out the consciousnesses...


That's kinda what I was implying. Whoever controls the bones controls the spirits that left them behind. If there was Dharma-tech that found a mechanical way to do the same, that doesn't change much.





It's stretching it, but maybe a lot of the Others ARE dead already. Somehow?

I mentioned that myself recently with regards to Goodwin sleeping on the couch for a month... maybe Harper was already dead at that point but "animate" much as I suspect Mikhail was.

The biggest support that I have for this line of thinking is that Mikhail didn't care about dying (over and over again) and Ben didn't have a second thought about triggering poison gas? Most may already be dead, and even if the remaining die... if they still "live" it doesn't much matter, right?


What happened to Christian Shepherd's bones? Maybe smokie stole them and put them someplace safe so that Ben couldn't use them so Christian walks the island "unbound."

I've been thinking a lot about the Shining since the reference in the most recent episode. Is Jacob using ghosts to lock in certain characters' destiny like the Overlook hotel does to Jack Torrance? Or are ghosts the chronology protection agents, transcending time and space to keep the future secure? I feel intuitively like there has to be some connection between ghosts and course correction...

I've been thinking a lot about the Shining since the reference in the most recent episode. Is Jacob using ghosts to lock in certain characters' destiny like the Overlook hotel does to Jack Torrance? Or are ghosts the chronology protection agents, transcending time and space to keep the future secure? I feel intuitively like there has to be some connection between ghosts and course correction...
Just to add to this, Miles's poltergeist may be an example of ghosts transcending time and space. As others have noted, the pictures on the wall are changed when Miles comes back downstairs. Of particular relevance, a picture of the dead kid now has an expensive-looking gold frame. I'm guessing the kid's ghost traveled into the past to nudge himself into buying a nicer picture frame for his mother to remember him by.

BM, I'm intrigued by the idea of the Whispers/ghosts as Chronology Protection Agents. What is Jacob's role? Do you suppose Jacob could be the first mate of the Black Rock?

Any effort to hide or find the island would seem to hinge on him if the secret to the island's location is contained in the journal/log he wrote.

What keeps him "alive"? Is there something (in the journal perhaps) that links him, like a curse, to the island's fate? Is it because, at some future point (relative to Jacob's "life"), people would come to the island with the ability to communicate with the dead? Does Jacob somehow enable/reveal the secret of the island, thus cursing himself to be connected to it until he makes this reveal? Is he trying to find a "good" person to reveal this secret to?

BM, I'm intrigued by the idea of the Whispers/ghosts as Chronology Protection Agents. What is Jacob's role?
HV: I see Jacob as akin to the Overlook Hotel in the Shining, reshaping fate for his own ends. I'm not sure if that means he's frustrating the Valenzetti or the source of its grim prophecy (i.e., he wants to wipe out humanity). I suspect it's the latter, which would explain why he purged Dharma. Either way, the universe is trying to course correct against his efforts.
Do you suppose Jacob could be the first mate of the Black Rock?
Ever since we found out the ghost of the Island wasn't Magnus Hanso himself, I've envisioned Jacob as a cabin boy, a nobody, like Ben and Locke. Still, the reference to the ledger belonging to the first mate, specifically, is indeed intriguing. Regardless, I'm with you 100% that there's a connection between Jacob and the Black Rock.
What keeps him "alive"?
He's a powerful psycic who tamed Cerberus and left a kind of imprint of his mind on the Island. As such, he's a ghost in the powerful machine left behind by the Fourtoes. That's what lets him reshape individual destinies to bring them to the Island...
Is there something (in the journal perhaps) that links him, like a curse, to the island's fate?
Possibly, but I suspect the journal's significance (aside from raising the first mate flag) relates mostly to the Island's location. Still, how cool would it be if it contained a reference to the creepy cabin boy who could see the future and kill rats on the ship with his mind? Hmmm...there might be a fun hiatus post along these lines.

HV: I see Jacob as akin to the Overlook Hotel in the Shining, reshaping fate for his own ends. I'm not sure if that means he's frustrating the Valenzetti or the source of its grim prophecy (i.e., he wants to wipe out humanity). I suspect it's the latter, which would explain why he purged Dharma. Either way, the universe is trying to course correct against his efforts.

Is Ben a sort of Jack Torrance in this analogy? Or, is he Danny, held by Jacob/The Island (Jack/The Hotel) against his will, who will use the "invasion" of the island by the freighties as cover to escape it?

course correction.. to who's benifit?
if a course change happened.. by whom? and why?
good and evil rein over all things. and in this show its always as simple as black and white. the correction will lead to a conclusion which will not make every camper happy, imo.

and then.. when I think about it, why would the lady try to direct desmond..I say she was attempting to stop him from course correction. keep him in his cage for a benefit.
great effort has been placed to stop normal issues.
jack finding water.. would they have found it if the powers at be had not guided him? at that time only locke was wandering he woods and clearly it was not for anyones benefit but his own. what purpose did it serve to keep them alive, if only to use them.

If evil is reining and things are bad - why be so suttle about it. why not just come right and say "that ain't right". but instead. there are little things that impact bigger things.
voyager - star trek - man tries to change history to regain his wife. but instead he is forever trying to correct his corrections and for ever attempting to find that one thing that will bring it back. to many variables. too many factors.

the funny thing is about good and evil. is the mad men who see what they what they do is the right thing. their point of view.
clearly the girls in the white rabbit, said it best.. about doing it for the good of things.
but who's good. who's version is the right one?

an odd event.. when shannon was killed, it clear that the whispers play a big role in actions of people. the actions of walt to stop shannon.. didnt work.. it back fired! killed someone incocent.. IMO ..
visions of walt attempting to stop events.. why?
why not let them play out.. because they dont play out to the benefit of someone.

because the plane crashed, now the future of man kind is at risk.. or someone elses version of the perfect world. some one knows the simpliest way to move people.
visons, noises, dreams, all of it creates effect..
IMO