I had a hard time with this concept: Kate comparing Sawyer to her biological father. I can see that Sawyer's initial obnoxiousness and off-putting comments may have made her dislike him (as did most of us at first), but it seemed a bit of a stretch to me that she would equate him with the man she hated enough to kill.

Thoughts?

They both have an accent

They both have leered or come on to Kate.

They both drink.

They are both "bad men". Wayne more because he beats women. Sawyer because of other bad things,

I wouldn't say the same, but that type.

Kate associating Sawyer with Wayne was a reflection of her own insecurity, not Sawyer's personality.

You both bring up good points. Sawyer's initial behavior on the island was alienating, and he was really sleazy to her at times. I do think that he probably reminded her of her biological father, which would have been a knee-jerk reaction, especially since we have since seen that Sawyer has many more redeeming qualities than her father appeared to have had. :rolleyes:

Kate associating Sawyer with Wayne was a reflection of her own insecurity, not Sawyer's personality.

Jay, I think you're right in that what we were supposed to take from the episode is that Kate was struggling with her feelings, both towards her biological father, and towards Sawyer. I still think it was an extreme reaction on her part, but I guess we are supposed to understand that this was a reflection of the depth of her internal conflict.

I also think that Kate doesn't want to be like her mother. She doesn't want to love a "bad man". She was attracted to Sawyer from the start and she fought it. She hated that she was attracted to someone horrible like Wayne. I don't think she allowed herself to develop caring feelings until she saw positive traits and some humanity in Sawyer.

One thing to note - she has beaten up on Sawyer physically, but he has never retaliated. Sawyer has a mean mouth but he doesn't seem to have physical, sadistic tendencies. He's pretty respectful of women that way; otherwise I think Ana would have at least one big ole black eye.

she didnt like the fact that wayne was part of her. she always thought of her self as better than him, and to find out she actually came from him is what she doesnt like. also she thinks she deserves someone better than wayne. and when she has feelings for sawyer, a person she thinks is not good enough for her she is reminded she is not as good as she wants to be. its a reflection of one's self.

I agree with everything you all are saying here. I also wanted to note that she seems to really want to not become her mother. And, I think we finally have some insight as to why her mother was so afraid of her when we first saw her in Born To Run last season. I never did understand why her mother's initial response was fear. Now I do.

One thing else I noticed, I think it says a lot about the character of her mother when the marshall said her mother had turned her in. Personally, now this is just my own opinion, I think it was wrong of her mother to turn her in. If it were me, I would have shown a loyalty more to my child than to a man, even if he was my child's father and I did love him.

But then again, I could be wrong.

Huggs,
Lisa:cool:

There is a difference between a bad boy and a bad boy with a heart. Wayne is a scumbag, he's abusive and an alcholic. Sawyer's got a bad month, he can be selfish at times but inside he's not nearly as bad as Wayne. He did not try to hit back once when Ana was beating the crap out of him so basically he's not a violent person, he would not hit a woman.

You know Bobbin,

I notice that all the time, he never ever hits back and for the most part he doesn't initiate. Although, I am speculative on Part 2 of the Pilot when he and Sayid are fighting. We don't know who threw the first punch in that one.

I keep coming back to his comment to Michael, "Kids are like dogs, Mike, you knock 'em around enough, they start to think they deserve it." That gave us a lot of insight into Sawyer's way of thinking.

Huggs,
Lisa :cool:

Wayne is a scumbag, he's abusive and an alcholic. Sawyer's got a bad month, he can be selfish at times but inside he's not nearly as bad as Wayne.

The biggest difference between Wayne and Sawyer is Sawyer is really James.

The biggest difference between Wayne and Sawyer is Sawyer is really James.


Exactly SB,

And the only reason he's the way he is is because of what happened to him when he was little. Had he not been subjected to the pain he's gone through, he would be completely different.

And secondly, Sawyer has made a concious choice to keep up the "act" so to speak, so that he never allows himself to be in a position where he doesn't have the upper hand, thus keeping a wall around him so he doesn't get hurt again.

But if there is every anyone who'll be able to get through all that, it's Kate. We must remember that she's the only one who knows about his past. He did tell Michael in Exodus Part 2 that his father killed himself when he was 8 but that's all that Michael knows. Kate's the only one who knows the whole story.

Huggs,
Lisa

You have all made excellent points for why Sawyer is very different from Wayne! The only real similarities I can see is the initial obnoxiousness. But with Wayne, there was real nastiness behing it. He was an abuser. With Sawyer, when you peel back the layers, it becomes apparent that there isn't a lot backing up that obnoxious behaviour.

But I also believe that Kate wasn't exactly comparing Sawyer to Wayne. I think that because initially Sawyer COULD remind her of a 'wayne type' character...it's hard for her to shake that when she starts to feel more for him. She knows that's not who he is...and that's why she's sort of falling for him. But Sawyer is an outcast...much like herself...and because she associates that with her father...she worries that it makes her a 'bad person'. She worries that she isn't good and that she can't find love with a 'good person'. Logically, she knows that Sawyer isn't a BAD person...but he reminds her of the parts of HERSELF that she tries to ignore...and she associates those parts with her father. That's why I think she often resents the connection that she has with Sawyer. It doesn't really have a lot to do with him...it has to do with her own inner battle.

And the discussion queen is back ;)
Great points as always... it's good to have you back
:hug:

What we need is a Wayne flash back so we can see what made him bad, turned him into what he was before he died, sympathize with him. He was probably just another misguided southern boy who was hot enough to call somebody freckles and do what he wanted to... At least that is what Kates mom probably saw in him. :ohwell:

You have all made excellent points for why Sawyer is very different from Wayne! The only real similarities I can see is the initial obnoxiousness. But with Wayne, there was real nastiness behing it. He was an abuser. With Sawyer, when you peel back the layers, it becomes apparent that there isn't a lot backing up that obnoxious behaviour.

But I also believe that Kate wasn't exactly comparing Sawyer to Wayne. I think that because initially Sawyer COULD remind her of a 'wayne type' character...it's hard for her to shake that when she starts to feel more for him. She knows that's not who he is...and that's why she's sort of falling for him. But Sawyer is an outcast...much like herself...and because she associates that with her father...she worries that it makes her a 'bad person'. She worries that she isn't good and that she can't find love with a 'good person'. Logically, she knows that Sawyer isn't a BAD person...but he reminds her of the parts of HERSELF that she tries to ignore...and she associates those parts with her father. That's why I think she often resents the connection that she has with Sawyer. It doesn't really have a lot to do with him...it has to do with her own inner battle.

See, more evidence of why I say QE is a genious!!

Huggs,
Lisa :cool:

See, more evidence of why I say QE is a genious!!

Huggs,
Lisa :cool:

hey, what about me? didnt i say almost the same thing?
no respect

hey, what about me? didnt i say almost the same thing?
no respect

Sincerest of apologies, my dear. I didn't not realize.

Okay, hear ye, hear ye!!!

The genious list has been updated to include our dear Passenger 23F. :clap:


Huggs,
Lisa

You have all made excellent points for why Sawyer is very different from Wayne! The only real similarities I can see is the initial obnoxiousness. But with Wayne, there was real nastiness behing it. He was an abuser. With Sawyer, when you peel back the layers, it becomes apparent that there isn't a lot backing up that obnoxious behaviour.

But I also believe that Kate wasn't exactly comparing Sawyer to Wayne. I think that because initially Sawyer COULD remind her of a 'wayne type' character...it's hard for her to shake that when she starts to feel more for him. She knows that's not who he is...and that's why she's sort of falling for him. But Sawyer is an outcast...much like herself...and because she associates that with her father...she worries that it makes her a 'bad person'. She worries that she isn't good and that she can't find love with a 'good person'. Logically, she knows that Sawyer isn't a BAD person...but he reminds her of the parts of HERSELF that she tries to ignore...and she associates those parts with her father. That's why I think she often resents the connection that she has with Sawyer. It doesn't really have a lot to do with him...it has to do with her own inner battle.


All the things you mentioned in your post are the exact reasons why I think a relationship between Sawyer and Kate would be the more compelling story to watch and tell. The complexity of these two characters as they struggle and back down those inner demons and past fears. Overcoming those emotional hurdles together as they both seek redemption, learn to love and appreciate the other for who and what they are...discovering that have something "good" in loving one another.

Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily think a relationship between Jack and Kate would be bad, not at all. I like Jack...think he's a great guy. I just wonder, where's the challenge outside of Kate's trust issues for these two? Something she's going to have to deal with regardless of who she chooses. On this island, with all it's mystical properties, the impending danger thats constantly looming with the monster and the elusive "Others"...I don't know...maybe I'm just talking out the side of my butt here.

:D

All the things you mentioned in your post are the exact reasons why I think a relationship between Sawyer and Kate would be the more compelling story to watch and tell. The complexity of these two characters as they struggle and back down those inner demons and past fears. Overcoming those emotional hurdles together as they both seek redemption, learn to love and appreciate the other for who and what they are...discovering that have something "good" in loving one another.

Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily think a relationship between Jack and Kate would be bad, not at all. I like Jack...think he's a great guy. I just wonder, where's the challenge outside of Kate's trust issues for these two? Something she's going to have to deal with regardless of who she chooses. On this island, with all it's mystical properties, the impending danger thats constantly looming with the monster and the elusive "Others"...I don't know...maybe I'm just talking out the side of my butt here.

:D

EXACTLY! :biggrin:

You completely echoed my feelings on the subject! I love the idea of Sawyer and Kate discovering something sweet and 'good' in eachother...in spite of how they are both percieved to everyone else.

I think Kate wants to seek 'goodness' in Jack because he represents it. He is the leader...the 'hero' if you will...and he has a high moral standard. And she always feels that if she can get him to see her as a good person, she might start to see herself as one.But the problem is that I think she feels like she's striving for his respect all the time. Which explains her breakdown when she yelled at him, "I'm sorry I'm not good like you. I'm sorry I'm not perfect like you!". And it's not Jack's fault either. He isn't intentionally making her feel like she needs to strive to be something else. But because Kate's placed such a high value on other people seeing her as a good person...it constantly stresses her out and makes her snap.

But I think with Sawyer she has the potential to discover that you don't always need to look outside yourself to find something 'good'. And I know their relationship would be very challenging and volitile...and maybe in the real world it wouldn't be possible. But on television, it's a compelling struggle to watch. It would make that payoff so much more meaningful because they would have to overcome so much TOGETHER to be happy :)

About the whole: Bad Sawyer thing, I agree with the people who said he isn't as bad as Wayne. They're right. I was just recently thinking about this. He's got a sharp tongue and is a bit of a 'rebel' when it comes to Jack's leadership and such, and he can be a bit selfish, but you have to take into account the little things.

Have you ever noticed that he's never mean to Claire; the pregnant girl? He teased Charlie with Claire's diary, but he's never mean to the woman herself. Sawyer's never made a nasty comment to her, and the only nickname she really had was 'Mamasita,' which isn't 'mean.'

Also, everyone comes to Sawyer when they want stuff, and they say it like 'Give me it. Now.' So he doesn't give it to them. But remember when Hurley wanted the manifest? Hurley came up and asked him reasonably, with some Hurley humor thrown in. Sawyer never objects and just lets Hurley take it. Meanwhile, Jack - who Sawyer doesn't really like much - just deamnds it angrily so of course Sawyer doesn't oblige.

So underneath the act he has, as Kate said, "There is a human being in there somewhere."

About the whole: Bad Sawyer thing, I agree with the people who said he isn't as bad as Wayne. They're right. I was just recently thinking about this. He's got a sharp tongue and is a bit of a 'rebel' when it comes to Jack's leadership and such, and he can be a bit selfish, but you have to take into account the little things.

Have you ever noticed that he's never mean to Claire; the pregnant girl? He teased Charlie with Claire's diary, but he's never mean to the woman herself. Sawyer's never made a nasty comment to her, and the only nickname she really had was 'Mamasita,' which isn't 'mean.'

Also, everyone comes to Sawyer when they want stuff, and they say it like 'Give me it. Now.' So he doesn't give it to them. But remember when Hurley wanted the manifest? Hurley came up and asked him reasonably, with some Hurley humor thrown in. Sawyer never objects and just lets Hurley take it. Meanwhile, Jack - who Sawyer doesn't really like much - just deamnds it angrily so of course Sawyer doesn't oblige.

So underneath the act he has, as Kate said, "There is a human being in there somewhere."

Again...EXACTLY! :biggrin: ...lol...

Sawyer's biggest problem on the island is his attitude...but if you try to think of actually awful things on the island that he's done...it's hard to come up with any. The only possible one is not telling Jack he didn't have the inhalers...but everyone jumped to the conclusion that he did...he just never corrected them.

And, as you said, everytime someone has come to him and asked him for something nicely, he's handed it over: the manifest, laptop battery, alcohol.

Plus everytime there is a crisis, he actually helps out on instinct. He helped Michael when Jin was trying to drown him, he tried to keep jack from attacking Locke at Boone's funeral...and then yelled for water, he was protective of Kate when the boars were charging out of the fuselage...etc, etc.

We've seen numerous times that Sawyer's bad attitude is not backed up by much ;). I'm not suggesting that he is a saint...but he APPEARS to be much worse than he actually is, because of how he presents himself.

Again...EXACTLY! :biggrin: ...lol...

Sawyer's biggest problem on the island is his attitude...but if you try to think of actually awful things on the island that he's done...it's hard to come up with any. The only possible one is not telling Jack he didn't have the inhalers...but everyone jumped to the conclusion that he did...he just never corrected them.

And, as you said, everytime someone has come to him and asked him for something nicely, he's handed it over: the manifest, laptop battery, alcohol.

Plus everytime there is a crisis, he actually helps out on instinct. He helped Michael when Jin was trying to drown him, he tried to keep jack from attacking Locke at Boone's funeral...and then yelled for water, he was protective of Kate when the boars were charging out of the fuselage...etc, etc.

We've seen numerous times that Sawyer's bad attitude is not backed up by much ;). I'm not suggesting that he is a saint...but he APPEARS to be much worse than he actually is, because of how he presents himself.

You know what else I've noticed, QE, Sawyer never seems to fight back and he never initiates anything. The only time I ever saw him go after anyone was when he thought Jin burned the raft. Other than that, he's always the one gets hit but never starts anything.

I'll tell you something else, in the situation with the inhalers, Boone never bothered to tell anyone that he went though Sawyer's stuff and Sawyer caught him. He just said that Sawyer beat him up. This leads me to think that a lot of what happened in Confidence Man was a set up.

I know I've said this before but let's not forget what he said to Jack, "Kids are like dogs, you knock 'em around enough, they start to think they did somethin' to deserve it." That one quote told us volumes about Sawyer and what he thinks of himself.

He is not intentionally cruel, mean or even hateful. He does it to defend who he is and to keep people at a distance, because if he doesn't, the scared little boy hiding under the bed is going to hurt again and he can't stand for that to happen.

This is why, even though we know he loves Kate and Kate loves him, it's going to take a long time for that relationship to come to fruition, if it ever does. Because if he lets her in, she'll know too much and he can't handle that.

Huggs,
Lisa (sorry not in the Jezebelle frame of mind right now)

P.S. My dog is laying next to me and snoring so loud. That's the best sound in the world to me. I love my dog!

But I think with Sawyer she has the potential to discover that you don't always need to look outside yourself to find something 'good'. And I know their relationship would be very challenging and volitile...and maybe in the real world it wouldn't be possible. But on television, it's a compelling struggle to watch. It would make that payoff so much more meaningful because they would have to overcome so much TOGETHER to be happy :)

Ha! In the real world, these two would avoid one another like people avoid the drunk uncle at a family reunion who wears socks and sandals, smells like cheese, and stays in somebodies face with his stank breath because he has no concept of the three foot rule. LOL

On this island, where all bets are off, and the seemingly impossible is almost par for the course, their relationship would be challenging, and at times volitile. (not abusive) But that's really part of what makes them exciting to watch. You want to see them continue to banter, tease and bicker with one another, call each other out on their b.s., but still respect the one thing that will ruin any relationship eventually, not being honest, regardless of how ugly the truth is.

I always think of the 'I Never' scene. You could tell when the game went from playful to serious when Sawyer mentioned the Carte Blanche thing, and never killing a man. It was so interesting because the look on his face said that he knew Kate wanted to lie in both instances, but if she did, he knew they'd both know she was lying. The same thing happened in 'BTR' during the bonfire conversation. That was the only time I can recall Sawyer ever truly being disappointed in Kate even after some of the condescending things she'd said to him, the stunts she'd pulled in playing him against Jack since they'd been on the island. When he made the statement about there being nothing on the island worth staying for, he was coming to her in all sincerity, but she told him to, "Be safe." The look on his face breaks your heart, because he knows in that instance, she wasn't being honest. :frown:

So, I say all that to say this, yes, it would be a challenge. No, it would be no fairytale. Yes, they'd fight, and make each other crazy, and at times they wouldn't even be all that nice to one another, (sounds a lot like some of the best relationships I know) but in the end, if loving one another through all of that, facing down their demons not only for the sake of their relationship, but for the sake of themselves, that love may end up being what redeems them in the end.

:hypocrit:

Ha! In the real world, these two would avoid one another like people avoid the drunk uncle at a family reunion who wears socks and sandals, smells like cheese, and stays in somebodies face with his stank breath because he has no concept of the three foot rule. LOL

On this island, where all bets are off, and the seemingly impossible is almost par for the course, their relationship would be challenging, and at times volitile. (not abusive) But that's really part of what makes them exciting to watch. You want to see them continue to banter, tease and bicker with one another, call each other out on their b.s., but still respect the one thing that will ruin any relationship eventually, not being honest, regardless of how ugly the truth is.

I always think of the 'I Never' scene. You could tell when the game went from playful to serious when Sawyer mentioned the Carte Blanche thing, and never killing a man. It was so interesting because the look on his face said that he knew Kate wanted to lie in both instances, but if she did, he knew they'd both know she was lying. The same thing happened in 'BTR' during the bonfire conversation. That was the only time I can recall Sawyer ever truly being disappointed in Kate even after some of the condescending things she'd said to him, the stunts she'd pulled in playing him against Jack since they'd been on the island. When he made the statement about there being nothing on the island worth staying for, he was coming to her in all sincerity, but she told him to, "Be safe." The look on his face breaks your heart, because he knows in that instance, she wasn't being honest. :frown:

So, I say all that to say this, yes, it would be a challenge. No, it would be no fairytale. Yes, they'd fight, and make each other crazy, and at times they wouldn't even be all that nice to one another, (sounds a lot like some of the best relationships I know) but in the end, if loving one another through all of that, facing down their demons not only for the sake of their relationship, but for the sake of themselves, that love may end up being what redeems them in the end.

:hypocrit:

Oh Darbi, what a great post....I just love your analysis of the situation.

I am really interested to see where the relationship goes and how it develops. Something tells me the creators, writers and even the cast pays pretty close attention to what we say and think. I'm noticing a lot of what is said here, shows up in articles and interviews. I like that.

I don't see the hearts and flowers type of romance either, however I do see a tremendous intensity unfolding here. I would venture to say that the relationship is going to have some great ups and downs, some serious confrontations and some totally knock-down, drag-out fights, but I do think that in the end the relationship will be strong, especially after having gone through all these problems. I believe it will culminate when one of them has to save the other's life.

So far, we've seen Jack save Sawyer after the knife wound and we've seen him save him from the bullet wound, which Jack easily could have done for Kate at first, but then because Sawyer was the last person to see his father alive. What we haven't seen is either one of them, without Jack's help, do something to save the other. And I don't think the relationship will become more than it is now, until something like that happens.

I'll have to give this some more thought.

Huggs,
Lisa :cool: