So, show of hands - - who else felt sorry for Matthew Fox in that scene? Considering Kate's kiss with Sawyer was, let's face it, one of the HOTTEST kisses in the history of television, ol' Jack had some serious measuring up to do!

And in my book, he didn't come close. It seemed very half-hearted, especially on his part. And Kate seemed awfully - er - unhappy? about it afterwards.

Anyone else think differently?

It was really boring and uncomfortable. Like watching brother and sister kiss....oh wait..we have seen that.

Anyway, I never though Jack and Kate had very much chemistry. That kiss proves it.

Here are my thoughts:

I think she kissed him because she was unstable and his "its alright, its alright" really let her know that she didn't have to run and be tormented by her past while she was on the island. This really helped her and in that instant Jack became the symbol of finally being "ok" and she was just caught up in the moment with a hunky man that was making sure everything was ok. I think she wanted to show her appreciation to some extent as well. I don't think Jack kissed back as hard as he wanted too. I think that he saw she was unstable and didn't want to take advantage of the situation. I think Kate ran away because she was embarrassed that she lost control like that. Will it keep up is the question? Will this entice Jack to start being more emotional towards Kate?

They need a second kiss....just to see. I think she was out of it, and he was in such a bad mood. Plus I think it took him by surprise. But I do think he enjoyed it more than she did.

I think Kate wanted Jack to respond differently than he did, maybe be happy that she kissed him, be happy that she chose to be there with him instead of Saywer, confirm that she was in fact a good person. However Jack just stood there looking confused, so she left feeling worse than before.

I didn't think it was akward, just sad in the sense that Kate was finally reaching out to Jack and unfortunately for him he didn't see it or reach back out to her. So she went back to Sawyer and told him everything and now they will be together instead, Jack had his chance and blew it.

It was really boring and uncomfortable. Like watching brother and sister kiss....oh wait..we have seen that.

Anyway, I never though Jack and Kate had very much chemistry. That kiss proves it.
That was the feeling I got...it was just awkward! Someone likened it to the kiss in Back To the Future, when Marty is kissed by his past-mom, and she pulls away saying "This is all wrong..." Kate seemed to have a similar reaction, when she pulled away...she had a "this is all wrong" look on her face. Perhaps she, too, was measuring Jack's kiss up to Sawyer's? :biggrin:

I think she needs to kiss me...just so I have a basis of comparison. :)

Wasn't it right after he heard Sawyer say he loved Kate ( according to Jack). Of course he didn't put all his efforts in to it! I think he felt guilty that he was kissing a girl that someone loved- and he thinks that Sawyer and Kate slept together.....

Kate forced the kiss only to try to push her own feelings towards Jack. She deeply cares for Sawyer, but she said that Sawyer reminds her of Wayne so she probably doesn't want to get involved with him.....but I think she will....

I think poor Jack was only used..... :( And he maybe hasn't kissed anyone since his wife???

It did seem as if he was holding back and as if there were too many thoughts going through his head...."Why is she kissing me after she has been sitting at Sawyer's bedside all this time? Does she know Sawyer loves her? Who is watching Sawyer right now? Does my breath stink?"

Kate forced the kiss only to try to push her own feelings towards Jack. She deeply cares for Sawyer, but she said that Sawyer reminds her of Wayne so she probably doesn't want to get involved with him.....but I think she will....

I think poor Jack was only used..... :( And he maybe hasn't kissed anyone since his wife???
But I think it's quite obvious that she's attracted to Jack too. I don't think she was the one who was confused during the kiss- she was just confused why he didn't kiss her all the way.

Ummm yeah probably Jack since you haven't brushed your teeth in about 55 days! Yes, dparis 'holding back' is a good way to describe it. He needs to do some serious damage control or he will loose her forever!

Oh dear. The subjective it wasn't as hot as the other kiss thread. I fast forward through the Sawyer/kate kiss myself because it gave me the creeps but that's just me..and that was before I had an opinion about Sawyer one way or the other. However this kiss had the potential for being 'hot' but Jack just 'knew' too much and didn't know how to react. It was hot up to a point...when she grabbed him and he just reacted...wow. :) It was real on his part..not a game like it was that time with Sawyer. So that part of it was 'hot' and the fact that Kate didn't have to be talked into it..

I do think this kiss would have been different if Jack did not know what he knew. If he was just randomly wandering through the jungle and Kate suddenly grabbed him and kissed him...well..let's just say he might have reacted differently ;)

I think as Kate identifies Sawyer with Wayne she is afraid she might be repeating a pattern her mother began. Go with a bad boy and be miserable. If she goes with Sawyer..she is somehow not 'good'. (I am NOT in any way saying she will be miserable or that Sawyer is as bad as Wayne. Not at all. She is just messed up in her thinking at the moment). She identifies Jack with her 'good' step father and wants to be 'good' and have his approval and probably thinks she will neve have it. She wants something different from both men and so she is in conflict. That is imho why she pulled away from Jack. She doesn't feel worthy enough of him (which is silly but once again its Kate's overtired mind at work..not reality)

And that is my take on the kiss. I keep replaying it and I fast forward through the other one but them I'm almost always in the minority so that doesn't bother me all that much.

I agree with PrincessV but would add to it also....Kate kissed Jack because she wanted to be "good" and feels that being with him would make it so. She was trying to force herself to go against her true nature in order to be what she wishes she was (at least in her mind...)
Jack seems to have been a) surprised, b) think she's already got a thing with Sawyer and c) harboring some sort of feelings of his own which cause him to hold back...I mean, think about it, in the beginning they actually did have some good chemestry going on and he could have easily jumped in there if he wanted to, but he showed no interested romantically whatsoever....in the episode with the plane, he acted as more of a friend to her than anything else. Either he is still suffering from some old baggage with his wife, or something else is amiss. However, we could also note that he's not completely sexually stagnant, as he was flirting with Ana Lucia at the airport (albeit lightly) and as soon as Kate did kiss him he went straight off to chop some wood....obviously taking out some pent-up frustrations there.
Can't wait to see where it all goes, but at this point I can honestly say I do not want to see Kate and Jack end up together in any romantic capacity.

I think she needs to kiss me...just so I have a basis of comparison. :)

Funny!!! That made my day.......

I think "nice guy" Jack got used by a "crazy" woman. It happens all the time. All the time I say!!! Not that I am bitter or anything lol

She was trying to force herself to go against her true nature in order to be what she wishes she was (at least in her mind...)
Great points, and ITA!

Acceptance of self seems to be a recurring theme going on...especially with Sawyer & Kate...

I think "nice guy" Jack got used by a "crazy" woman. It happens all the time. All the time I say!!! Not that I am bitter or anything lol

Yea, I was yelling... "Get away from him you crazy woman!!"
Husband was saying: "Oh I think I'm gonna puke!"

I am sure Jack was confused somewhat and had all sorts of things going through his mind during the kiss... Including wondering what happened to Sawyer that he was on the floor and Kate supposed to be watching him ...not doing so... Jack just heard Sawyer say "I love her" I am sure he took it as meaning Kate whether it did or not.

I'd definitely have some confused thoughts going on there.

I am sure Jack was confused somewhat and had all sorts of things going through his mind during the kiss
Yeah, like, "should I go for the breast, should I go for the breast..."

Wasn't it right after he heard Sawyer say he loved Kate ( according to Jack). Of course he didn't put all his efforts in to it! I think he felt guilty that he was kissing a girl that someone loved- and he thinks that Sawyer and Kate slept together.....

when did he think that they have slept together?

IMO, that scene was contrived and tacked on. Kate all the sudden breaks down for no real reason and then kisses him... Me thinks the writing gods gave the viewership a gift, and it was rushed and came off well, cheesey.

This is just my opinion, but Jack doesn't seem to have any genuine romantic passion in him. Even back in season 1 when he & his wife kissed - He seemed to be saying "I want
to love someone, but I dont know how." I think she pressured him into marrying him.

Husband was saying: "Oh I think I'm gonna puke!"

Then he's either lying or he's the only man in the world who was thinking that! :)

Oh dear. The subjective it wasn't as hot as the other kiss thread. I fast forward through the Sawyer/kate kiss myself because it gave me the creeps but that's just me..and that was before I had an opinion about Sawyer one way or the other. However this kiss had the potential for being 'hot' but Jack just 'knew' too much and didn't know how to react. It was hot up to a point...when she grabbed him and he just reacted...wow. :) It was real on his part..not a game like it was that time with Sawyer. So that part of it was 'hot' and the fact that Kate didn't have to be talked into it..

I do think this kiss would have been different if Jack did not know what he knew. If he was just randomly wandering through the jungle and Kate suddenly grabbed him and kissed him...well..let's just say he might have reacted differently ;)

I think as Kate identifies Sawyer with Wayne she is afraid she might be repeating a pattern her mother began. Go with a bad boy and be miserable. If she goes with Sawyer..she is somehow not 'good'. (I am NOT in any way saying she will be miserable or that Sawyer is as bad as Wayne. Not at all. She is just messed up in her thinking at the moment). She identifies Jack with her 'good' step father and wants to be 'good' and have his approval and probably thinks she will neve have it. She wants something different from both men and so she is in conflict. That is imho why she pulled away from Jack. She doesn't feel worthy enough of him (which is silly but once again its Kate's overtired mind at work..not reality)

And that is my take on the kiss. I keep replaying it and I fast forward through the other one but them I'm almost always in the minority so that doesn't bother me all that much.Agreed! :) The Jack/Kate kiss was at least easier for me to watch than the Sawyer/Kate one because, well, Jack wasn't bloody, half-conscious and tied to a tree at the time. That always creeped me out. But the circumstances this time around weren't any more ideal.
I got the feeling that Kate realized that Jack wasn't going to let her leave without talking to him, and so she did the first thing she could think of to distract and confuse him. Not to say that they didn't both enjoy it... but it wasn't exactly the best way to force the issue.

I got the feeling that Kate realized that Jack wasn't going to let her leave without talking to him, and so she did the first thing she could think of to distract and confuse him.

I totally agree with you. I think she wanted to get him off her back because she didn't want to open up and talk about it, so she did the first thing that came to her mind to divert his attention away from the conversation at hand.

I'm not sure whether Jack completely enjoyed the kiss, though. It seemed to me like he was either in complete shock or holding back because of what he heard earlier from Sawyer. Maybe he doesn't have feelings other than friendship toward Kate, either. Guess we'll have to wait and see how it all plays out.

i totally disagree with everyone. i thought it was great. two people who know better, but are still drawn to each other. i think kate likes jack because he reminds her of her childhood sweetheart, who was so good and a doctor and all that. and she feels like she wasn't good enough for the sweetheart either. in fact her badness got him killed. i think she's holding back because she's afraid of what will happen. as far as sawyer, i think its that whole girls like guys who are like their daddies but she is not going to give into that. she's not going to make the same mistakes her mother did (for the record, i don't think sawyer is like wade. although since he was apparently channeling him there must be some similarity). and i think jack held back because of what sawyer said, because of how kate is, never expressing emotion, and because he's got serious issues of his own with sarah that we don't even really know about yet. not to mention how easy can it be to date on an island? once your bridge is burned there's no going back. and only a limited number of options.

Kate was definitely running away from her feelings for Sawyer and trying to convince herself she's better with Jack. I think the kiss showed her that Jack wasn't a good enough substitute for Sawyer.

I also liked how Hurley talked about "transference" with jack regarding Sawyer. made me chuckle when he brought up the mental institute.

I actually like the jack/Kate kiss more. Why?

1. They kissed because they felt like it. Kate kind of had no choice because Sawyer said Kiss me and I will tell you where the medicine is.

2. Jack wasn't bloody.

I thought the kiss was sweet and not as sloppy and I liked that.
I mean the Kate/Sawyer kiss as awesome. But I liked the Jack/kate kiss better.

Agreed! :)
I got the feeling that Kate realized that Jack wasn't going to let her leave without talking to him, and so she did the first thing she could think of to distract and confuse him.

I thought the same thing.. Im sure every woman has used the same tatic to distract a guy.. haha.

I also thought that kate just got caught up in the moment, if you will. She was obviously very emotional and confused and all that. Who wouldn't be. And there's this wonderful adorable and stable friend thats trying to comfort you and make it all better. I've done the same thing before.. Then she realized what had happend and kinda freaked. Like 'omg.. I just did that and now there it is.. all in the open.' She can't take it back or blame it on 'I only did it to get someone's medication back'....

I think the writers have done a good job of imitating something that often happens in real life with this situation. Often women who were raised in an environment with an abusive father struggle with feelings of inadaquacy and self worth, especially as it relates to the extent that they are just as "bad" as their parents. Psychologically, she seems attracted to the familiar (sawyer), even though she feels like it isn't good for her. At the same time, even though she may desire stability, something/someone healthier for her, she feels she doesn't deserve it (jack).

I think Kate's feelings for Jack are real and deep, but because of her own issues and the way he has acted at times due to his issues, she hasn't felt that he cares for her that way and she truly believes she isn't worthy of him (the things she she ranted at him right before kissing him made this very clear). When he wouldn't let her go, showing he really cared and he was there for her, she momentarily lost control and gave into her feelings. Then, coming to her senses, most on her mind is killing her own father and possibly going crazy - yet again, not worhty of Jack) she freaks out and runs off. I do think they have chemistry and although he was holding back, I think they both showed deep emotional reaction to the kiss that only happens when romantic feelings are there.

As for Jack, he's got issues with love, since we don't know what happened to his wife, we can't yet know why, but we know he is guarded where his heart is concerned and it mimics, in real life, a dear friend that I have, who although a fairly young man, simply cannot move on from the death of his wife. Their behavior is oddly similar. For example, my friend wants to be loved like anyone, yet closes up as soon as any real connection begins to happen with a woman. The occasional casual relationship seems fine, but no real emotional attachment is allowed to grow. Yet, he goes out of his way to appear that he is open and interested, flirting occasionally, etc. In other words, he wants to appear normal, has moments that he really tries to open up, but just can't quite do it, and it so much reminds me of Jack's character.

As for Sawyer, we all know he crushes on Kate, and she obviously has grown to care about him, but with her background, it seems to me that her getting into a romantic relationship with Sawyer would be the equivient of Charlie going back to heroine. Before you start hating, I do not think this would be the case with anyone getting involved with Sawyer, only Kate, because of her background, at least not for where both of them are as characters now. Although I have grown to like Sawyer a lot, glean a bit about how he bacame who he is and I like that the writers show people have many sides, he still seems "unsafe" to me, and to be a fairly good representation of the things Kate hated about her father. Additionally, I don't think he is in love with Kate, he may be at some point, but I don't see it now. Jack, like anyone, has his shortcomings, but there does seem to be a deep compassion there, that Sawyer does not seem to have. (for example, in a life and death, in my gut I would trust Jack more than I would trust Sawyer)

And lastly, once the episode finished, I took "Sawyer's" admission that he loved her as coming from "wayne", which of course Jack wouln't know, but we as viewers do.

Ok, I know this is going to cause much bashing, just my humble opinion, commence the bashing :biggrin:

i totally disagree with everyone. i thought it was great. two people who know better, but are still drawn to each other. i think kate likes jack because he reminds her of her childhood sweetheart, who was so good and a doctor and all that. and she feels like she wasn't good enough for the sweetheart either. in fact her badness got him killed. i think she's holding back because she's afraid of what will happen. as far as sawyer, i think its that whole girls like guys who are like their daddies but she is not going to give into that. she's not going to make the same mistakes her mother did (for the record, i don't think sawyer is like wade. although since he was apparently channeling him there must be some similarity). and i think jack held back because of what sawyer said, because of how kate is, never expressing emotion, and because he's got serious issues of his own with sarah that we don't even really know about yet. not to mention how easy can it be to date on an island? once your bridge is burned there's no going back. and only a limited number of options.

You brought up an interesting point. She loved a handsome young doctor..and he died. She could be afraid the same thing might happen to Jack..

Never thought of that....

You brought up an interesting point. She loved a handsome young doctor..and he died. She could be afraid the same thing might happen to Jack..

Never thought of that....

Hmmm I never thought of that either. Maybe why that's why she ran away after that happened, kinda thinking "Oh crap , it's happening all over again!:cool:

I think Kate's feelings for Jack are real and deep, but because of her own issues and the way he has acted at times due to his issues, she hasn't felt that he cares for her that way and she truly believes she isn't worthy of him (the things she she ranted at him right before kissing him made this very clear). When he wouldn't let her go, showing he really cared and he was there for her, she momentarily lost control and gave into her feelings. Then, coming to her senses, most on her mind is killing her own father and possibly going crazy - yet again, not worhty of Jack) she freaks out and runs off. I do think they have chemistry and although he was holding back, I think they both showed deep emotional reaction to the kiss that only happens when romantic feelings are there.

And lastly, once the episode finished, I took "Sawyer's" admission that he loved her as coming from "wayne", which of course Jack wouln't know, but we as viewers do.

Ok, I know this is going to cause much bashing, just my humble opinion, commence the bashing :biggrin:

No bashing here; I saw the kiss scene the same way you did. The only thing I disagree with is the part where you believe (and others have brought up also) that when Sawyer said, "I love her," that it was really Wayne talking. I think if Kate had heard him say, "I love you," I might be persuaded, because it would appear that she heard her dead father say that because she was going crazy or whatever......but there was no reason for Jack to be "haunted", to hear the voice of Kate's dead father.

No bashing here; I saw the kiss scene the same way you did. The only thing I disagree with is the part where you believe (and others have brought up also) that when Sawyer said, "I love her," that it was really Wayne talking. I think if Kate had heard him say, "I love you," I might be persuaded, because it would appear that she heard her dead father say that because she was going crazy or whatever......but there was no reason for Jack to be "haunted", to hear the voice of Kate's dead father.
I agree. The "I love her" was from Sawyer. And I am about 99.9% convinced that he was talking about Kate. Whether he realizes it on a conscious level...well, I doubt that. And if he did, he'd never admit it.

Jack seemed less than happy about the news, though. I think he does have feelings for Kate, and vice-versa...but they're all too screwed up right now to sort it out properly. Kate has put Jack on a bit of a pedestel, and she strives to be worthy of him. She wants to be "good" so that she can deserve Jack, but she believes she is "bad" and deserves someone like Sawyer, though she fights it. Comparing Sawyer to her father shows that, as well as her tirade at Jack for being 'better' than her.

It'll be interesting to see where the writers are going to take this whole mess! :biggrin:

I think Kate reached out to Jack for stability and for him to "make it right". She said to him afterwards that she was sorry "she wasn't as perfect as him and as good as him". She has some self-worth issues and she was looking for him to accept her as she is.

However, Jack had just heard Sawyer confess his love for Kate and did not return her kiss because he felt that it betrayed Sawyer's feelings - Jack has fairly high morals and standards for the most part. Unfortunately, neither one knew what was going on in the other's minds. So - blehcky kiss.

So, now Jack's confused and torn about his feelings towards Kate, betraying Sawyer's feelings, and Kate feels rejected by Jack for not "being good enough". Which at the moment, leaves Sawyer in the cat-bird seat.:biggrin:

Kate wasn't confused after the kiss. She knew exactly what she had done, she just didn't know how to react now and where to go from here, so she ran. It wasn't so much her response to Jack as it was her response to herself. She let herself follow the passion in her heart, also something she doesn't think she deserves. Kate's the one who's got some things to figure out. The first post-kiss conversation should set the tone for the relationship. Don't count Jack out, but don't count Sawyer out either. They're both still major players in the competition for Kate's heart.

I absolutely loved the entire kiss scene! I thought it was perfect; caring, tender, filled with wonderment. The way they just touched foreheads afterwards to get their breath and the way they looked at each other with such amazement still makes me tingle. Their kiss was the kind that opened them up and let them glimpse all the possibilities. And it was that depth and intensity of emotion, both physical/sexual and emotional that stunned them and confused Kate. She reached for the "fairytale" and found that it was real, and that is something that has never happened to her before. The way she kept looking back over her shoulder when she stumbled away was incredibly telling ... that she was torn between wanting to stay, and the implications of doing just that. And I also think that that was the first time in a very, very long time that she didn't feel used, dirty or objectified afterwards ...

I absolutely loved the entire kiss scene! I thought it was perfect; caring, tender, filled with wonderment. The way they just touched foreheads afterwards to get their breath and the way they looked at each other with such amazement still makes me tingle. Their kiss was the kind that opened them up and let them glimpse all the possibilities. And it was that depth and intensity of emotion, both physical/sexual and emotional that stunned them and confused Kate. She reached for the "fairytale" and found that it was real, and that is something that has never happened to her before. The way she kept looking back over her shoulder when she stumbled away was incredibly telling ... that she was torn between wanting to stay, and the implications of doing just that. And I also think that that was the first time in a very, very long time that she didn't feel used, dirty or objectified afterwards ...

Well said! I like the "fairytale" part. He would be mine...

Agreed! :) The Jack/Kate kiss was at least easier for me to watch than the Sawyer/Kate one because, well, Jack wasn't bloody, half-conscious and tied to a tree at the time. That always creeped me out.

That is exactly what I though. I was really grossed out with the other kiss. Tongues and blood...gross!

I personally thought the kiss was HOT! I really love Jack though. I think there are so many that would love to see Sawyer and Kate hook up that it will always be unconfortable. While looking at the clips, I did see that Kate slipped the tongue on Jack!

http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=829&pos=448

I agree with roughly half the people who've posted here... I think the Sawyer/Kate kiss was much more intense. I think partially because I don't think Kate expected to enjoy kissing Sawyer, and she very evidently did. The blood, sweat didn't matter--which also points to how intense the kiss was, Kate didn't care.

I think she was at a low point when she kissed Jack... she was confused, feeling alone, doubting her sanity and I think she just needed some comfort. It also seemed that Jack did not reciprocate as he could have (which other posters have pointed out the reasons for) and I just didn't feel his heart was in it.

On the issue of Kate saying that whenever she started to let herself feel something for Sawyer that she saw Wayne--I think it was in a way that reminded her she wasn't good enough for anyone, not that Sawyer reminded her of Wayne.

Oh dear. The subjective it wasn't as hot as the other kiss thread. I fast forward through the Sawyer/kate kiss myself because it gave me the creeps but that's just me..and that was before I had an opinion about Sawyer one way or the other. However this kiss had the potential for being 'hot' but Jack just 'knew' too much and didn't know how to react. It was hot up to a point...when she grabbed him and he just reacted...wow. :) It was real on his part..not a game like it was that time with Sawyer. So that part of it was 'hot' and the fact that Kate didn't have to be talked into it..

I do think this kiss would have been different if Jack did not know what he knew. If he was just randomly wandering through the jungle and Kate suddenly grabbed him and kissed him...well..let's just say he might have reacted differently ;)

I think as Kate identifies Sawyer with Wayne she is afraid she might be repeating a pattern her mother began. Go with a bad boy and be miserable. If she goes with Sawyer..she is somehow not 'good'. (I am NOT in any way saying she will be miserable or that Sawyer is as bad as Wayne. Not at all. She is just messed up in her thinking at the moment). She identifies Jack with her 'good' step father and wants to be 'good' and have his approval and probably thinks she will neve have it. She wants something different from both men and so she is in conflict. That is imho why she pulled away from Jack. She doesn't feel worthy enough of him (which is silly but once again its Kate's overtired mind at work..not reality)

And that is my take on the kiss. I keep replaying it and I fast forward through the other one but them I'm almost always in the minority so that doesn't bother me all that much.
elfdream I totally AGREE with you !!! :clap:

That is exactly what I though. I was really grossed out with the other kiss. Tongues and blood...gross!

I personally thought the kiss was HOT! I really love Jack though. I think there are so many that would love to see Sawyer and Kate hook up that it will always be unconfortable. While looking at the clips, I did see that Kate slipped the tongue on Jack!

http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=829&pos=448

I agree this kiss was HOT tho' I don't expect Skaters to agree (that would be betraying their ship after all). But I thought it had an underlying passion and while Jack was a bit tentative, after all he wasn't expecting this, he DID kiss back. I don't get how some people are saying he didn't return the kiss. Yes he did pull back but I think in part because of what the kiss what doing to him and how it was starting to make him feel. Just think when he gives in full blown - Kate better watch out!!!

Oh and Sportsphotogirl great picture. I love Albert Pujols too!! :biggrin:

I think ppl are trying to compare apples to oranges & focus only on the superficiality of the kisses. Each was hot in its own way respectively imo.

K/S & J/K have different dynamics. K/S relate to each other on a very physical/sexual level. It's why Kate "sees" Wayne in Sawyer (generally). Pnt being they're not going to hold back out of the start gate because they're aggressive.

Jack and Kate's dynamic has been reluctant. They were both emotionally abused/ repressed by their fathers. Kate isn't the only one who doesn't feel "good", Jack is the poster child for failure/not having what it takes. Kate relates to Jack emotionally. It's no mistake the CTV promo described their kiss as a "sudden awakening". They're slowly being brought conscious of parts of themselves they had been suppressing. So unlike KS, their first kiss is going to be more of an exploration than an exclamation point. It's not that time in their relationship yet. It had enough passion & desire while being more love, imo, than lust. JK are just learning how to embrace the "sexuality" of their paradigm.

I'm certain folks will be squeeing when KS have a kiss now because there's more emotional bond & it would take on a different meaning in their pairing.

I would say Jack is probably one of the most passionate when he allows himself to be. Matt played Jack's reaction to the kiss perfectly imo. I thought he was a good kisser.. He was into it-his eyebrow cocked & forehead wincing in an almost "it hurts so good way", & his movement almost in shock of it all.. Did he really look as though he kissed Sarah w/ fervor? The crux of his character is he's not good at "letting go", but when he does he gets intense. This was a first step for him in "awakening" the feeling in him instead of the rationale he had w/Sarah.

And I think Kate is being "awakened" to being loved in the way she never has. She kissed Jack like Tom but even more hungrily.Tom rejected Kate, Jack did not. So what's more scary to a woman who has run her whole life & hates herself, than a man who treats her worthy & like a gentleman? I'd probably bolt too lol. I just think the emotionality of the moment gave her permission to give in to her feelings. Many other characters have acknowledged JK's verbal copulation..

The kiss was very hot & satisfying for me. :)

I just thought of a very glaring Kate/Jack connection. Forgive me if someone has mentioned this already but we are so focuced on the K/S connect which is very real...but Jack and Kate have a very deep connection to if they would just open up about it they would instantly have a bond that Kate and Sawyer do not share.

Both of their father were alcoholics. They both grew up in that mess. The only difference was the economic classes they grew up in but the effects, no matter what your station in life is exactly the same. Both of them were were responsible for their father's deaths. Now Jack didn't 'pull the trigger' so to speak but he felt his actions lead Christian to drink himself to death.

Both of them had co-dependant mothers who took their father's side.

I thought about this and..WOW! They do have something in common..and if Kate told Jack what she had done...she might be surprised to find that Jack might..instead of condemning her might actually sympathize with her. And Kate would find out that Jack is not so 'perfect' after all.

However in order for this to happen..they have to actually 'talk' and that might not happen until the middle of season 4...:cool:

lol elfdream...you're right, but I don't think we'll have to wait till season 4! Personally I just can't wait to see their first confrontation after the kiss. It should definitely be interesting.

I could add my opinion about the kiss but SOO many people have said exactly what I want to say and much more eloquently. So I just hit the major points.

The kiss was great, it was very tender and I think it shocked them both. The feelings involved were more than either one had been willing to admit before. When they break apart and they are touching their foreheads together...Jacks face is perfect. He cant form words until after she is already running away.Even then he can only weakly call her name. And again she ran because reality hit her and she thought I'm not worthy of him, but the way the kiss made her feel made her run.

Ok enough of my rambling, I have an exam to get to!

Gonna chime in with my opinion. :cool:

The kiss was fine. I don't know that it was hot but intense. I have always thought the K/S kiss was too, um, moist.

I half agree with half of the folks here. I think Kate is very strongly drawn to Sawyer but he is too like Wayne and possibly others in her past. She doesn't want to live that life. She doesn't want to be attracted to the bad boy. She is very confused with "Wayne" speaking to her thru Sawyer, reenforcing the connection between the two in her mind.

Then she is found by Jack. Safe, sweet Jack who is a good boy, every mother's dream for her daughter. She wants to want him, to be more attracted to him than Sawyer. In a desperate attempt to prove this to herself she kisses Jack. She puts a lot of effort into it, trying to make it a head spinning, overwhelming thing that will push Sawyer into second place.

It doesn work. Not for her. Jack is pretty rattled but she realizes she doesn't feel as strongly about him as Sawyer. Her expression looked to me like fear mixed with disappointment. She wanted Jack to save her but he can't. Her multiple back glances were more a drowning swimmer realizing rescue is out of her reach.

She goes back to Sawyer.

Of course, poor Jack hasn't a clue about this. He is even more confused than she is.

Just to throw a wrench in the mix, Sawyer didn't mention Kate specifically. He is talking while fevered. We can't know what delusions he was having. "She" and "her" was what he said. He could just as well have been talking about Ana Lucia. :biggrin:

I think to make that moment all about Sawyer is to really short change not what ppl have perceived as "chemistry" between the couples, but the bond Jack and Kate have formed & romantic moments in their relationship. Such as how Kate freaked out thinking he was dead, crushed him in a hug, made him the sling, took care of him in GG & told him "Without you Jack...", as well as him saying "I didn't do it for him" & giving her seeds after finding our she's a killer.

We have multiple threads going on about the same topic lol so pardon if I post something folks have read on the other threads.

The whole scene leading up to the kiss is telltale of her running pattern.Rather than tell Jack what's really going on, she tries to leave. According to my HOTRS script, she "wishes Jack were asking her to be Eve more than anything in the world, but that wasn't the part of her that was calling the shots", so she figuratively ran again & said nothing about how she felt.. She took off from her home, & even the man she loved, Tom. Apparently she had been holding in her feelings for him in for along time until a highly charged moment caused her to finally give in..And afterwards Tom rejected her. So it makes more sense to me that she would get spooked by the thought of "digging in" w/someone she loves & run, or in being afraid of being rejected again, than it would for her embrace her feelings right now w/o some major soul searching.

So is she running away from Jack because she truly loves Sawyer, or is it that she feels deserving of Sawyer & really loves Jack? By deserving I don't mean Sawyer is not worthy of love or is below Jack, just that Kate assumes she can't have Jack.

I think kate kissed jack because she got lost in the moment, and it just looked like she didnt even realize she was kissing jack.... she probably thought she was kissing someone else, and then she realized it was jack... you can tell by the way her face looked when she actually saw jack looking back at her..... and i think jack has feelings for kate. when sawyer told jack that he loves kate, poor jack had this sad look on his face.....

Then she is found by Jack. Safe, sweet Jack who is a good boy, every mother's dream for her daughter. She wants to want him, to be more attracted to him than Sawyer. In a desperate attempt to prove this to herself she kisses Jack. She puts a lot of effort into it, trying to make it a head spinning, overwhelming thing that will push Sawyer into second place.

It doesn work. Not for her. Jack is pretty rattled but she realizes she doesn't feel as strongly about him as Sawyer. Her expression looked to me like fear mixed with disappointment. She wanted Jack to save her but he can't. Her multiple back glances were more a drowning swimmer realizing rescue is out of her reach.

She goes back to Sawyer.

Of course, poor Jack hasn't a clue about this. He is even more confused than she is.
*applauds* Good assessment!

I always loved the snippet from the Confidence Man script, re: the S/K kiss - -

What makes it interesting is that even though it starts out as a chore -- a necessity -- somewhere about three or four seconds in, it becomes something ELSE. And just before it actually goes from something else to REAL . . .

Kate pulls away.

And we milk this delicious moment afterward for all it's worth. And despite the insanity of the circumstances under which it happened, both of them felt something. Finally -- and when Sawyer talks to her now, it's softer -- that kiss did something to him -- some of his swagger is gone -- he's just a man now --

SAWYER
I don't have it.
Kate has tried hard to deny anything real with Sawyer, because of the reminders of Wayne (which are now coming to a close, with Kate's acceptance, and their shared acknowledgment, of the black horse). And she came pretty darn close to a confession of her feelings for him at the end of WKD, when she was talking to "Wayne" through Sawyer.

I think that Jack represents so much "good" to Kate, so much that she wants for herself but believes herself unworthy of, that she's going to try & trick herself into believing that he can redeem her. We saw a little of it when she pulled away from the kiss...the "OMG, what the **** did I just do?" look on her face was pretty telling...and it sent her running right back to Sawyer, with a heartfelt "almost" confession of her feelings for him.

I think kate kissed jack because she got lost in the moment, and it just looked like she didnt even realize she was kissing jack.... she probably thought she was kissing someone else, and then she realized it was jack... you can tell by the way her face looked when she actually saw jack looking back at her..... and i think jack has feelings for kate. when sawyer told jack that he loves kate, poor jack had this sad look on his face.....
I don't think they would assume the audience would understand she was seeing someone else w/o giving any indication of it. Something to connect Jack to the association like they did Sawyer w/Wayne. She had to see Jack because she felt comforted by his presence & it's why she kissed him. There's more to indicate from her past that she gave into her feelings like she did w/Tom imo as the parallels between the moments are notable.
I think that Jack represents so much "good" to Kate, so much that she wants for herself but believes herself unworthy of, that she's going to try & trick herself into believing that he can redeem her. We saw a little of it when she pulled away from the kiss...the "OMG, what the **** did I just do?" look on her face was pretty telling...and it sent her running right back to Sawyer, with a heartfelt "almost" confession of her feelings for him
I actually agree, in her perception she thinks Jack is better than her but we all know Jack has not been perfect. He participated in torture, covered up his father's botch until he changed his mind(& Jack said you've done this before so obviously he knew of past incidents). So I think what's at work here Kate's looking-glass self...Not to mention Jack thinks he isn't good enough "I don't have what it takes, I'll fail." If anything I think he has done so many things to prove to Kate she IS worthy of more & is deserving of his affections;

"I don't think that's true, you're not running now" (read you're more than you believe yourself to be), -telling her "We all deserve a chance to start over", "If you need me, you know where to find me", "No one owes anyone anything" (since he knew she was going on the hike to atone for her outing), gave her seeds to say he was sorry & after being used/finding out she was a killer, & then in her yelling at Jack to push him away, he puts aside his pride to comforts her.

All of that would be incredibly self affirming to Kate, but also scary as hell to actually have that kind of love requited. She HAS lied & used Jack sometimes, so she misinterprets his upset over those times as judgement when frankly she should have some accountability for hurting him. So it therefore perpetuates her insecurities but is false to how Jack actually sees her...And Jack misinterprets her shutting him out to protect herself to mean she isn't interested.

If Kate had an OMG moment because of the kiss it was imo (a) because she thought she just ruined things with him (b) she had deja vu w/Tom & realized she gave in when she thought shouldn't have (c) her feelings for Jack overwhelmed her & made her confused

I think its important to remember that after the kiss she did not go running back to Sawyer. When she finally made it back to the hatch, she was looking for Jack. Then Sun asked her to stay with Sawyer, which Kate did not seem thrilled about, but it was a good thing because it forced her to face "wayne".

So I must agree with Banshee that you can't try to make the JK kiss about Sawyer. It had nothin to do with him, and everything to do with the circumstances and how each one felt towards the other. I think the most telling look is the look on Kate's face right before she kisses Jack. It's realization. She finally realizes how much Jack cares for her. She can see it in his eyes, so she gives in to her feelings and kisses him. But then she gets scared. Of her own feelings for him. First, she already doesnt feel like she deserves him, and second he does remind her of Tom, which didnt end up to well and the thought of losing Jack like that scares her. I mean look at how upset she was when Jack got buried in the cave in....or even look at how upset she was when Jack moved to the caves. There have definitely been plenty of moments over season 1 and 2 that showed that Kate and Jack have feelings for each other. So I must disagree when it's said that kate wants to have feelings for Jack but doesnt. As said in the HOTRS script that was posted above...Kate WANTS Jack to ask her to be Eve. She just denies that part of her heart because she doesnt feel like shes worthy.

Whew...that got long! lol

Oh man Bansh you beat me to it! And much more eloquently...lol oh well...very nice analysis!

For those that aren't sure Sawyer was referring to Kate... when Jack asks him, "you mean Kate?" Sawyer responds. He either says "yeah" or "Kate". Check it out... And, by Jack's reaction to the "i love her" he obviously was convinced that Sawyer meant Kate. If Jack's convinced, I think we're meant to be. And in my experience with this show, (case in point AL killing Shannon) most times if it looks like a duck, it's a duck.

If anything I think he has done so many things to prove to Kate she IS worthy of more & is deserving of his affections;
And Kate may come to believe this, eventually - - but as of this particular moment in time (in their relationship), I don't know that I see it. Kate may strive to be worthy of Jack...she wants to be "good". But I don't think he knows enough about her yet to make her feel that way. And she knows that. In her mind, it probably goes something like "Oh, if Jack only knew what I had done...he'd run for the hills!"

That's why she doesn't feel worthy of him, no matter what he does/says. Until he truly knows and fully accepts her, skeletons and all...how can she?

Either way, this triangle is gonna be fun! :D

And Kate may come to believe this, eventually - - but as of this particular moment in time (in their relationship), I don't know that I see it. Kate may strive to be worthy of Jack...she wants to be "good". But I don't think he knows enough about her yet to make her feel that way. And she knows that. In her mind, it probably goes something like "Oh, if Jack only knew what I had done...he'd run for the hills!"

That's why she doesn't feel worthy of him, no matter what he does/says. Until he truly knows and fully accepts her, skeletons and all...how can she?
I don't disagree, at this particular moment she may not realize loves Jack because denial can be powerful w/perceived good reason. It's why there's room for interpretation in both cases because it's how the triangle, or now trapezoid lol can even exist. Al just got on to the scene & Kate did look concerned when she noticed Jack knew her. I don't think they'd wrap the triangle/trapezoid up in one ep by it being definitive she's in love w/Sawyer & not Jack. I do think though they're obviously moving to explore KS & JA.

It's also plausible she knew exactly how much she cares for Jack & did do it as a kind of goodbye in running from her feelings & thinking she couldn't be w/him.

Kate told Jack "I killed the man I loved" with no context for it. It can't really get more blunt than that in confirming to him what she's capable of. Debatably, imo he knows she took part in the poisoning as well & it's why he said "No one owes anyone anything." He already knew who she was when she was outed so that wouldn't effect his perceptions of her. It seems like an odd thing to say unless he did know.

Then he's either lying or he's the only man in the world who was thinking that! :)

He was "puking" over me because I was drooling over Jack and jealous that Kate had her tounge in his mouth ;)

For those that aren't sure Sawyer was referring to Kate... when Jack asks him, "you mean Kate?" Sawyer responds. He either says "yeah" or "Kate". Check it out... And, by Jack's reaction to the "i love her" he obviously was convinced that Sawyer meant Kate. If Jack's convinced, I think we're meant to be. And in my experience with this show, (case in point AL killing Shannon) most times if it looks like a duck, it's a duck.

Actually Sawyer does not confirm anything I did check it out both with and without Closed Captioned. He mumbles "Where is she?" twice to which Jack responds "You mean Kate?" Sawer does not say anything and Jack immediately goes into "She's been watching over you 24 hours. The only way I could get her to leave was to send her to get you something to eat." THEN Sawyer mumbles "I love her." twice. At this point it's a matter of interpretation as to who he was referring to. I myself don't think it was Kate and that has nothing to do with Jate/Skate debate it's just that this southern boy has someone in his past that hurt him...there's more to his story....

I myself don't think it was Kate and that has nothing to do with Jate/Skate debate it's just that this southern boy has someone in his past that hurt him...there's more to his story....
Unless he was talking about his mother...

Sawyer confessed to Kate in their "I Never" game that he's never been in love. So I'm about 99.99% sure he was talking about Kate.

Time will tell! :cool:

Unless he was talking about his mother...

Sawyer confessed to Kate in their "I Never" game that he's never been in love. So I'm about 99.99% sure he was talking about Kate.

Time will tell! :cool:

You can 'love' someone without being 'in love' with them.

However it doesn't matter what he meant. What matters is what Jack thought he meant. Jack probably thought he meant Kate and that influences his actions toward both of them.

Actually Sawyer does not confirm anything I did check it out both with and without Closed Captioned. He mumbles "Where is she?" twice to which Jack responds "You mean Kate?" Sawer does not say anything and Jack immediately goes into "She's been watching over you 24 hours. The only way I could get her to leave was to send her to get you something to eat." THEN Sawyer mumbles "I love her." twice. At this point it's a matter of interpretation as to who he was referring to. I myself don't think it was Kate and that has nothing to do with Jate/Skate debate it's just that this southern boy has someone in his past that hurt him...there's more to his story....

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. It may not be in the CC, but watch Sawyer after Jack asks the question. He responds.

I just have to note, that is more than possible that he wasn't "sawyer" then and was "channeling wayne" they went to great lengths to seperate a wide awke lucid sawyer and an odd ill sawyer channeling wayne...when I re-watched it, it really seemed like they were setting the next scene for when kate realizes its wayne talking to her thru sawyer - ya its a bit far fetched, but there are quite a few far fetched things in this show (jack chasing his dead dad thru the jungle, walt appearing, etc)

Having said that, its also more than possible it was sawyer and his subconscious and he was refering to kate or someone else, but it just seems really unlikely to me 1) because when they played I never he said he had never been in love, which I don't completely buy & 2) because although there is some chemistry between them (k/s), there really hasn't yet been enough of the bonding that goes with love and love for someone like the character they have bult for sawyer would be something that would be huge for him and something he would likely be the last to realize. It can totally grow into that, but for me, I don't feel its happened yet.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. It may not be in the CC, but watch Sawyer after Jack asks the question. He responds.

I did watch Sawyer after Jack asks the question and I didn't see any affirmative response to his questions. Certainly no "yeah" or "Kate" so we will have to disagree on this.

Anyone else see him confirm he was talking about Kate? I'm just curious

Anyone else see him confirm he was talking about Kate? I'm just curious
'Confirm', no. But I'm convinced that's who he meant. Of course, he was nowhere near his right mind, delirious with fever, etc...but hey, even subconscious confessions count for something! ;)

Jack felt guilty about kissing her because she was obviously in a vulnerable position. Jack also felt guilty because he knows that Sawyer and Kate love each other. That is why the kiss was not very passionate.

'Confirm', no. But I'm convinced that's who he meant. Of course, he was nowhere near his right mind, delirious with fever, etc...but hey, even subconscious confessions count for something! ;)
I dunno if he meant Kate, but this same philosophy is what seperates some from being convinced/or not Kate knew she was kissing Jack, wasn't thinking of Sawyer, & it counted/meant something.This is where the triangle succeeds since what is fact to one can be interpreted as fiction as another. Clever devils those writers lol.

Jack felt guilty about kissing her because she was obviously in a vulnerable position. Jack also felt guilty because he knows that Sawyer and Kate love each other. That is why the kiss was not very passionate.

I didn't find Jack to feel guilty & why would he when Kate was the aggressor. Jack does indeed think Kate and Sawyer love each other but it hasn't been confirmed per se.

I thought it was passionate in a potential "love" way than lust.It was still desirous at the very least because they did not seem to want to part. Jack looked bereft when she took her lips away & she put her forehead against his.

This 'what did Sawyer say/did he say anything'- what did the kiss mean- is getting as bad as the 'There are no survivors/We are the survivors' debate. ;) There are no 'clear' answers at the moment.

I guess someone will have to ask Javi or Damon the next chance we get... ;) ;)

Originally Posted by Robinhood56
Then she is found by Jack. Safe, sweet Jack who is a good boy, every mother's dream for her daughter. She wants to want him, to be more attracted to him than Sawyer. In a desperate attempt to prove this to herself she kisses Jack. She puts a lot of effort into it, trying to make it a head spinning, overwhelming thing that will push Sawyer into second place.

It doesn work. Not for her. Jack is pretty rattled but she realizes she doesn't feel as strongly about him as Sawyer. Her expression looked to me like fear mixed with disappointment. She wanted Jack to save her but he can't. Her multiple back glances were more a drowning swimmer realizing rescue is out of her reach.

She goes back to Sawyer.

Of course, poor Jack hasn't a clue about this. He is even more confused than she is

*applauds*.....Yes..Yes and yes.........I couldnt have said it any better

We don't know what Kate was thinking when she pulled away. For all we know it was "Oh no..the last good boy doctor I loved got killed! I better run away now!'

Or she could have felt feelings JUST as strong for Jack and she didn't know which way to turn..and ran away.

We will just have to wait for the Producers's commentary on this episode to tell us what was going on.

I agree. I think she really WANTS to love Jack because he's like her good army step dad. But she's scared to death because she loves Sawyer, who's like her jerk abusive dad Wayne. And she doesn't want to be stupid like her mom!

I agree. I think she really WANTS to love Jack because he's like her good army step dad. But she's scared to death because she loves Sawyer, who's like her jerk abusive dad Wayne. And she doesn't want to be stupid like her mom!
I see the opposite...I think she's scared to death she loves Jack because she's afraid of being rejected & loved in the way she can't love herself. Her negative self perception is her security blanket, it's what she knows & can count on. When something comes along & challenges status quo it effects change. And even when change is good it can be very unsettling.

It's fairly simple really and can be summed up with a short post. She sees sawyer like wayne someone she deserves. She sees Jack like her step dad. She thinks she deserves Sawyer, but is in love with Jack and doesn't think she's good enough. Jack held back because that's Jack, he's afraid to take that leap of faith. You could see the emotion in both of them. Kate backed away because she realized she gave into her emotions. Ana and Sawyer are merely there to lead Kate and Jack to each other. As Rascal flats would say they (sawyer, ana) are the "broken road" that will lead Jack and Kate to eachother. The kiss seems really deep and meaningful. Kate and sawyers seemed more like hormones being trapped on an island. I like sawyer but he's not for Kate, or at least that's how the writers seem to be presenting the story. Say they change it I could say other wise, but I can't post anything other that what I see as the truth of the matter. Kate doesn't want to love Jack, she just happens to love him. You don't look at someone the way she does if you WANT to love someone. Sawyer was still Wayne when he was talking to Jack, sawyer didn't wake up till the end....................

LOL, I have yet to see it mentioned on here that Kate was going on virtually no sleep. You don't think it's possible that she hallucinated Wayne? Lack of sleep also could have easily contributed to her highly emotional state. She wasn't exactly rational when she kissed Jack.

As for WHY she kissed Jack... it had little to do with Sawyer and EVERYTHING to do with Kate desperately wanting to be a good person. Jack represents good in her eyes, and if she could have Jack, she must have goodness in her. (Har dee har...) However, I think as she was kissing him, she realized that there was just... nothing. She had been blown away by Sawyer's kiss, but Jack's was... just not the same. I definetly think she cares deeply for Jack, but it bothered her greatly that she just didn't have the same instinctual reaction as she did with Sawyer. She DESPERATELY wants to love Jack and for him to love her, and for whatever reason, it isn't working.

I honestly believe that anyone that saw that kiss as passionate is simply seeing what they WANT to see. Which is fine, btw. I'm not knocking it by any means. But if you try and remove yourself from one ship or another, and look at it as if you didn't care who go with whom, I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't seem nearly as 'hot' or 'passionate'.

I have to disagree, if Kate had realized while kissing him that there was nothing there, I think she would have pulled away first. I also dont think the kiss would have left them both breathless and leaning on eachothers foreheads if there was nothing to it.

I have watched the kiss multiple times and each time I can see the passion and tenderness. No its not a "omg I can never stop kissing you" type of kiss. But think of the circumstances. Kate is very emotional and has allowed herself to give in to what she wants, but it scares her. As for Jack, he's confused, he knows Kate is very emotional and Jack is by nature very rational. So yea he was holding back a bit. This kiss was not meant to try to rival or be compared to the SK kiss. They are both completely different circumstances. Imo both kisses were hot (i mean come on have you looked at Josh, Evi, and Foxy?? HOT PEOPLE!! lol)

As for the whole did sawyer mean he loved kate, or was it wayne, etc. I dont think we really have enough info at this point to make that distinction. I think it could go either way, but I agree with the poster who said that it doesnt really matter right now. Whats important is that JACK thinks he meant Kate. So we'll get to see how that plays out. I'm excited, it should be fun, lol. Especially now that we've added AL to the mix....the trapezoid begins...

I see the opposite...I think she's scared to death she loves Jack because she's afraid of being rejected & loved in the way she can't love herself. Her negative self perception is her security blanket, it's what she knows & can count on. When something comes along & challenges status quo it effects change. And even when change is good it can be very unsettling.

Thats what I am thinking! :) However, I guess only time and the writes will tell!! :) Man, how are we going to make it to january for a new episode??!!

I honestly believe that anyone that saw that kiss as passionate is simply seeing what they WANT to see. Which is fine, btw. I'm not knocking it by any means. But if you try and remove yourself from one ship or another, and look at it as if you didn't care who go with whom, I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't seem nearly as 'hot' or 'passionate'.

The same thing could be said of the other side. Those who don't see the J/K as passionate are seeing what they want to see. For my part I never thought the Kate/Sawyer kiss hot. I fast forward through it...I don't think the Jack/kate kiss as particularly 'hot' either but I do think it was much more tender and real.

But once again we DON'T KNOW WHAT KATE WAS THINKING!' If I were asked to pin it down I would say it 'looks' to me in my humble opinion that she was just as confused and conflicted as she always has been . We don't know who she loves because I don't think she knows herself.

For all we know Evi was tired after a long day of shooting and phasing in and out of the scene and looked up and realized .."Hey..you're not Dom!' but her reaction was so good the director decided to keep it. :laugh: :wink1:

For all we know Evi was tired after a long day of shooting and phasing in and out of the scene and looked up and realized .."Hey..you're not Dom!' but her reaction was so good the director decided to keep it.

LMAO! :24:

That must have been an interesting day on set. I can just picture it now:

"Hey Foxy, how's it going?"
"Great Dom! I get to kiss your girlfriend today! I hope that's OK?" ;)

I think you make a good point, though, elf: we really won't know exactly how she felt until we get a few more episodes. There's just too much left open for interpretation right now to have a clear answer. People saw what they wanted to see and aren't likely to change their minds any time soon! ;)

Where is everyone getting the idea that Kate is in love with Sawyer? I understand that she has feelings for him, but feelings don't necessarily mean love. Sure he is more to her than just a friend, but I just don't see relationship love toward him. If I missed something, please feel free to enlighten me.

Where is everyone getting the idea that Kate is in love with Sawyer? I understand that she has feelings for him, but feelings don't necessarily mean love. Sure he is more to her than just a friend, but I just don't see relationship love toward him. If I missed something, please feel free to enlighten me.

I dont think many are saying that Kate is in love with sawyer..BUT she does have "feelings" for her,per her own words. And those feeling can and may turn into love. I guess we just have to wait and see how it plays out

And if Kate isnt in love with Sawyer..then I guess she cant be in love with Jack either..I havent see her admit anything about her feeling for Jack either way. We know its been established that she feels something for Sawyer.Whether or not she feels some thing for Jack is what I think is up in the air

LOL, I have yet to see it mentioned on here that Kate was going on virtually no sleep. You don't think it's possible that she hallucinated Wayne? Lack of sleep also could have easily contributed to her highly emotional state. She wasn't exactly rational when she kissed Jack.
I think it's interesting Kate's ep is paralleled to Jack's WR. He was sleep deprived for 5 days but still coherent enough to swim out against riptides, have an in depth chat w/Locke, find the caves & make a sensical speech to the group. His ghosts were real but in being analogous, who is to say Kate wasn't conscious during her moment w/Jack like he was at pnts in his ep.

As for WHY she kissed Jack... it had little to do with Sawyer and EVERYTHING to do with Kate desperately wanting to be a good person. Jack represents good in her eyes, and if she could have Jack, she must have goodness in her. (Har dee har...) However, I think as she was kissing him, she realized that there was just... nothing. She had been blown away by Sawyer's kiss, but Jack's was... just not the same. I definetly think she cares deeply for Jack, but it bothered her greatly that she just didn't have the same instinctual reaction as she did with Sawyer. She DESPERATELY wants to love Jack and for him to love her, and for whatever reason, it isn't working.
Well, their kisses wouldn't be the same, they weren't meant to be. At the time KS kissed their emotional bond was not as developed as JK's is now. As I mentioned earlier, one dynamic started off aggressive so it's how they came out of the start gate, & the other is reluctant & just getting its sea legs in the sexual/physical dept...We don't have the character insight to know she felt nothing.

I think you either love someone or you don't. You can desperately want a relationship to work out but romantic love is not the only path to redemption.I would think if you can be desperate, she would want to love Sawyer so she can love herself since it means accepting the parts of her that are like Wayne.
I honestly believe that anyone that saw that kiss as passionate is simply seeing what they WANT to see. Which is fine, btw. I'm not knocking it by any means. But if you try and remove yourself from one ship or another, and look at it as if you didn't care who go with whom, I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't seem nearly as 'hot' or 'passionate'
The converse can be true as well, maybe it was passionate & some just don't want to see it. If you're someone partial to KS it would be subjective to say the casual viewer didn't see it that way..Even then I think you have to consider it within the context of their relationship. I believe if KS were to have a kiss like that now, ppl would likely be view it as validation of their emotional bond.

I thought there was plenty of passion w/a mix of shock in a good way. They kind of "floated" everytime their lips met.

I think you either love someone or you don't. You can desperately want a relationship to work out but romantic love is not the only path to redemption.I would think if you can be desperate to love someone, she would want to love Sawyer so she can love herself since it means accepting the parts of her that are like Wayne.
I don't know so much about this bit - - it almost seems the opposite, with what we have to go on so far. If Kate was so desperate to love someone, she'd more likely want it to be Jack...she wants to deserve something "good" for herself...and she considers Jack to be that.

She's been fighting her feelings for Sawyer, we know that now. "Every time I look at Sawyer, every time I feel something for him...I see you, Wayne. And it makes me sick." She badly wants to get past her daddy-issues, put those to rest, and to make herself into what she considers to be a "good" person. Sawyer, I think we can all agree, is not necessarily someone she sees as "good" at this point in time. And yet, she still has feelings for him. And I believe he, like Kate, is redeemable.

Sawyer: Are we saved?
Kate: No Sawyer. Not yet.

I'm not sure Kate realizes any deeper feelings for Jack yet. Or at least, she didn't until the moment she kissed him, on a desperate impulse. Yes, they've had some flirtation going on for the past 40-odd days, and she has put Jack up on what she considers to be the "good" pedestel...but I don't think she believes herself worthy of him. She's not good enough for him. Yet. Which is (IMO) one of the possible reasons that she freaked and ran after their kiss.

The push & pull between these three characters is going to be fascinating...and it will all hinge on them growing, changing; facing their demons; their redemption and forgiveness. Kate will strive to deserve Jack, but perhaps something will happen to knock Jack down a peg or two, while perhaps Sawyer continues further along a road to redemption...confusing Kate even further, in regards to her feelings for both of them.

And now I've totally rambled, and the NyQuil has officially kicked in, and I apologize for any typos or insane-troll-logic in the above post. :biggrin:

I don't know so much about this bit - - it almost seems the opposite, with what we have to go on so far. If Kate was so desperate to love someone, she'd more likely want it to be Jack...she wants to deserve something "good" for herself...and she considers Jack to be that.
Folks keep repeating this pnt, but I don't see the credence it gives the idea that Kate feels nothing for Jack..The converse of Sawyer helping Kate redeem herself is being thought of as proof she loves him.

She's been fighting her feelings for Sawyer, we know that now. "Every time I look at Sawyer, every time I feel something for him...I see you, Wayne. And it makes me sick." She badly wants to get past her daddy-issues, put those to rest, and to make herself into what she considers to be a "good" person. Sawyer, I think we can all agree, is not necessarily someone she sees as "good" at this point in time. And yet, she still has feelings for him. And I believe he, like Kate, is redeemable.
She could be fighting feelings for Jack as well though....Sawyer himself asked Kate what she saw in Jack because he makes her "weak in the loins". Her reaction to Jack being buried in the cave in was quite emotional....The script I quoted from HOTRS said she wished Jack were asking her to be Eve....Charlie commented on their verbal copulation, Hurley asked if they were moving in the caves together, he & Sawyer referred to Kate as Jack's girlfriend, & in Moth/GG she took care of Jack w/the sling & nursing him back to health.

I'm not sure Kate realizes any deeper feelings for Jack yet. Or at least, she didn't until the moment she kissed him, on a desperate impulse. Yes, they've had some flirtation going on for the past 40-odd days, and she has put Jack up on what she considers to be the "good" pedestel...but I don't think she believes herself worthy of him. She's not good enough for him. Yet. Which is (IMO) one of the possible reasons that she freaked and ran after their kiss.
Until the pnt of the kiss they had been keeping themselves at physical arm's length so I agree it is quite plausible it wasn't until she kissed him that she did realize how deep her feelings are, which could also make her bolt in feeling overwhelmed/confused. She gave into her love for Tom in WTCMB & after he rejected her she slunk sheepishly down in her seat & said "Sorry". I imagine there would be an element of fear of deja vu in this instance.

I agree they're all on the path to redemption but Jack has been knocked down pegs imo. He's participated in torture, covered secrets/lies, killed the Marshall (though in mercy) so it's only in Kate's mind she isn't good enough, it's not what Jack believes.

I'd say that's a pretty good analysis IceKat. And as far as Jack getting knocked down a peg or two, I think that will happen in the 11th episode when we see more of his back story and his relationship with his wife. Something had to have happened there that we don't know about yet. He just seems a little shady whenever the marriage department comes up. Unfortunately, most of the characters do not get the same insight into everyone's past that we get to see. Until Kate knows more about Jack and sees Sawyer's redemption, she might be more confused as to what she wants than the two of them combined.

I think it's so wrong to try to compare the two kisses. Jack is a more conservative person than Sawyer and is not going to eat Kate's face like Sawyer did. Also, Jack was not expecting this kiss and Sawyer knew his was coming and went in for the kill so to speak. I'm not a shipper and I could care less who kisses who but that S/K kiss was gross, gross, gross. I can't even watch it. Let's lighten up on poor Foxy. He's need some lovin too. :smile:

What I got out of the kiss w/Jack was that Kate has strong feelings for Sawyer, and she's struggling with it, because he reminds her of Wayne. So, how could she be falling in love with someone she hated so much and killed.

I think she kissed Jack to see if he gave her the same butterflies when she kissed him and realized, that it didn't do anything for her. She was falling for Sawyer and she knew it at that moment.

I think it's so wrong to try to compare the two kisses. Jack is a more conservative person than Sawyer and is not going to eat Kate's face like Sawyer did. Also, Jack was not expecting this kiss and Sawyer knew his was coming and went in for the kill so to speak. I'm not a shipper and I could care less who kisses who but that S/K kiss was gross, gross, gross. I can't even watch it. Let's lighten up on poor Foxy. He's need some lovin too. :smile:

LMAO.....while I personally have no problem with the KS kiss, that was just funny!! But I agree with why people shouldnt compare.

What I got out of the kiss w/Jack was that Kate has strong feelings for Sawyer, and she's struggling with it, because he reminds her of Wayne. So, how could she be falling in love with someone she hated so much and killed.

I think she kissed Jack to see if he gave her the same butterflies when she kissed him and realized, that it didn't do anything for her. She was falling for Sawyer and she knew it at that moment.

I see that differently, she kissed Jack because in the moment she saw how much he cared about her, and how he made her feel. It's all in her face right before she kisses him. If she didnt feel anything, I doubt she would have been so into the kiss, putting her hands on his face and massaging his cheek. She felt something, and it scared her. So she went with her gut instinct and ran.

Kate's hurdle on this island is still running. She's good at it, and its going to take more than just one ep (and more than one person) to make her stop running. She ran from her feelings for Jack, but with the help of Sun (when she really didnt give Kate the option of not staying with Sawyer...who could blame her by the way...Jin is YUM) she faced "wayne". Rome wasnt built in a day, and Kate isnt going to face all her demons and feelings in one ep.

You all are making some great arguments for both sides. Well thought out and reasonable.

I was on a forum last night that was so hot with attacks that my monitor was smoking. (not really but I wouldn't have been surprised to see it!) So keep up the good work..

(and another vote for "kate hasn't made up her mind yet...she is still conflicted....) ;)

I thought that the kiss was beautiful. It was tender and loving, completely in the moment. The kiss was gentle and passionate at the same time. Jack and Kate are a lovely match, both are quite vulnerable emotionally, they both just need someone to love and be loved by someone.

I think that it was a suprise to them both because they finally acted on their feelings for one another. I think that this moment opened their eyes to that fact that they both have very strong feelings, and showed them the love they have. I think that they walked away not because the kiss was wrong or not meant to be, they both need to seriously think about where their relationship could be headed.

Kate's hurdle on this island is still running. She's good at it, and its going to take more than just one ep (and more than one person) to make her stop running. She ran from her feelings for Jack, but with the help of Sun (when she really didnt give Kate the option of not staying with Sawyer...who could blame her by the way...Jin is YUM) she faced "wayne". Rome wasnt built in a day, and Kate isnt going to face all her demons and feelings in one ep.
This is a good point...Kate is still running, and it'll take many more episodes to work through all of her issues. She ran to Jack, she ran away from Jack...she ran to Sawyer, but is fighting that, too. We saw her face "Wayne" down, and hopefully the healing process for that element will start. And (as a Skate shipper!), I think that's a great sign for Sawyer/Kate, in eventually being together. She's able to get "Wayne" out of her head whenever she looks at him...and he continues along the road to redemption, becoming more "James" than "Sawyer". :D

I thought I'd jump in and add my two cents :)

I liked the J/K hug & kiss too. And I agree... comparing K/S and J/K kisses are just comparing apples and oranges.

Kate is good at manipulating people - telling stories, making up lies, getting what she needs and running. But it's never worked on Jack and I think normally (off island) she would have tried to stay away from a person like that. Instead, she finds herself doing the opposite. Jack and Kate can read each other very well.. and I think it unnerves them both, but especially Kate.

I don't think Kate kissing Jack had anything to do with Sawyer. It had everything to do with Jack.The kiss sprang from something that has been building for a season and a half - Jack and Kate's relationship. I think that Kate had her barriers down, she had tried to run and ended up crying in Jack's arms. Jack was telling her it was okay, hugging her, showing he cared about her. She wasn't thinking like Kate normally does, which is barriers up and run. I think she's someone that hates being vulnerable but there, her barriers were down, her emotions were out, she was crying - and yet she finds it didn't feel bad to be so vulnerable. It wasn't something she feared this time, she was glad she'd shared it with Jack and that he'd helped her.

So in that moment she acted on something she would normally not have done (although may have thought of). She kissed him. As for why she ran....

Kate was orginally out in the jungle b/c (she thought anyway) Wayne had somehow possessed Sawyer and he'd attacked her. After the horse and everything that was dragging out her flashbacks, she needed to run cause that's what she does. Not because of her feelings for Sawyer, but b/c she is once again finding that no matter how far or fast she runs, she can't escape her past and who she thinks she is.

This episode established that Kate does not think highly of herself... at all. Even if everyone around her said that she was good, she wouldn't believe it. She wants to be, but thinks she can't. Kate killed Wayne. Kate got the man she loved killed (Tom). She views herself as someone "with murder in [her] heart". I think more than anything she ran away from Jack b/c she doesn't want the same thing to happen to him. I think she wants to protect Jack from herself.

Both Jack and Kate have issues with "i'm not good enough"/"i don't have what it takes"/"i don't deserve anything". Even though they are feeling the attraction they hold themselves back.


One thing about the J/K kiss that definitely stands out to me is that it made me look forward to their next one. If it can be this good when they're still holding so much inside - just wait till they open themselves up completely!

My first reaction was Wow! What will all the shippers on the Fuselage think of this!?!? :shock1: :ohmy: :shock1:

Kate isn't one of my favorites but I liked the kiss. We'd all been expecting it for a long time and it happened in a really unexpected way. Bizarre circumstances, mixed emotions, no idea where things are headed...

Yep, I loved it. :biggrin:

Kate is good at manipulating people - telling stories, making up lies, getting what she needs and running. But it's never worked on Jack and I think normally (off island) she would have tried to stay away from a person like that.
Off-topic, I'm not in this ship thing now... but I always thought in Jack as the favorite victim of Kate, in this manipulating question. She did it with him many times.

So, show of hands - - who else felt sorry for Matthew Fox in that scene? Considering Kate's kiss with Sawyer was, let's face it, one of the HOTTEST kisses in the history of television, ol' Jack had some serious measuring up to do!

And in my book, he didn't come close. It seemed very half-hearted, especially on his part. And Kate seemed awfully - er - unhappy? about it afterwards.

Anyone else think differently?

I agree with you completely! I think Sawyer and Kate have great chemistry, something I never saw with her and Jack.

Imo chemistry extends beyond the sexual into philosophical, emotional, & spiritual venues. I've found JK to have all of those things plus great sexual attraction as well. The other elements take precedence w/them but I prefer that. Like they say "When a relationship is right sex is 10% of it, when it's wrong it's 90%".

Off-topic, I'm not in this ship thing now... but I always thought in Jack as the favorite victim of Kate, in this manipulating question. She did it with him many times.
Actually, Kate hasn't gotten away with a lot with Jack per se...He's been right near every time he's suspected her w/the exception of when he first met her. He thought there could be alterior motive in her wanting him to euthanize the Marshal, knew when she approached him to exhume his body there was more to it than guns "what else is in the case Kate", caught her palming the key, & called her on the poisoning. He hasn't been blind, he's just chosen to give her the benefit the doubt. Which is why it's perplexing when folks say he doesn't understand her because in order to sense her motive for things, & then identify w/her desperation enough to not tell her secret or pass off drugging him as a joke, he has to to some degree. He just doesn't let her play victim while still supporting her which is what she needs to grow imo.

I'm officially on the Sawyer/Kate ship. They are HOT! The chemistry blows her chemistry with Jack out of the water. I agree with Evie's latest interviews, she and Jack have a brother/sister vibe. I see more passion, equality, and "relationship" between Sawyer and Kate.

I really, really hope the writers go for Sawyer/Kate. Jack can end up with Ana for all I care. I just don't want him with Kate.

i totally disagree with everyone. i thought it was great. two people who know better, but are still drawn to each other. i think kate likes jack because he reminds her of her childhood sweetheart, who was so good and a doctor and all that. and she feels like she wasn't good enough for the sweetheart either. in fact her badness got him killed. i think she's holding back because she's afraid of what will happen. as far as sawyer, i think its that whole girls like guys who are like their daddies but she is not going to give into that. she's not going to make the same mistakes her mother did (for the record, i don't think sawyer is like wade. although since he was apparently channeling him there must be some similarity). and i think jack held back because of what sawyer said, because of how kate is, never expressing emotion, and because he's got serious issues of his own with sarah that we don't even really know about yet. not to mention how easy can it be to date on an island? once your bridge is burned there's no going back. and only a limited number of options.

I totally agree with your post Lux. The writers spent over 30 episodes leading up to the Jack/Kate Kiss so I for one was excited to finally see it happen. Kate & Jack have great chemistry (every character on the island sees it!) which is only more interesting b/c we know about their crazy past relationships. And, we know Jack's got some major trust issues with Kate. Even though he says she has the chance to start over he's also very quick to accuse her of doing every devious thing on the island. Even Sawyer has told Jack that Kate's basically using him (remember the Marshall's suitcase). Kate's thinking she's unredeemable so her post kiss reaction is probably "What the hell did I just do?--Again!" Given all this, I'm not sure if their first kiss could be anything but a little awkward. It couldn't just be a purely physical thing with them as with Sawyer and Kate. I mean can you even see Sawyer in an actual relationship? So, maybe Kate will hook up with both of them--as the producers said in a recent podcast, Jack and Sawyer are 2 halves of the perfect man.

I think the whole thing didn't work out right. It seems that the kiss was placed there for the purpose of a kiss. Wrong timing.

I think the whole thing didn't work out right. It seems that the kiss was placed there for the purpose of a kiss. Wrong timing.
I think the pnt is that it was supposed to be awkward & wrongly timed. It's why it took Jack by surprise & ended prematurely just as he started to give in...Kissing Tom was an emotional moment where it would have been more appropriate not to do it, but she did. I don't think Kate would have reacted that way in both cases if it were the "right" moment per se for her or the other party. I think it solidified even further she wants to be w/Jack because as Kate does, she allowed her walls to come down based on instinct not logic that she had to kiss him. And in all 3 instances (Tom, Jack, & Sawyer ) she kept kissing them in spite of herself.

I love the chemistry between these two and can't wait to see how it plays out from Kate's side when Ana joins the mix.

Kate's going to be jealous of Ana and at that moment she'll truly realize the power and depth of her emotions for Jack.

I mean can you even see Sawyer in an actual relationship?

I agree, he's more of a one night stand kind of guy.

Are we talking about the time Kate kissed sawyer for the inhalers or have they kissed again? At the beginning Kate sort of shadows Jack in a stalker sort of way, watch how she's in his pockets all of a sudden, bloody woman. Sawyer and Kate together are hot though, bless em, doesn't it turn out Jack's gay anyway? :cool:

Kate's going to be jealous of Ana and at that moment she'll truly realize the power and depth of her emotions for Jack.

I think that will be interesting. Here Kate can't seem to make up her mind and along comes this other woman who Sawyer could very easily 'connect' with and someone Jack can help 'save' from herself.

She will be even more conflicted that she is now!

I mean can you even see Sawyer in an actual relationship?
With someone like Kate, I definitely can. They're two peas in a pod, IMO - - both drifters, both outlaws, both have "murder in their heart".

Let's turn that table for a moment - - can you see Kate in an actual relationship with Jack? Given both of their characters - - Kate, murderess, wanted by the Feds, on the run for her very life, probably for the rest of her life, major trust issues. Jack, stable, grounded, successful doctor, has some daddy and self-confidence issues, sure, but all in all (and compared to Sawyer), a pretty upstanding guy.

So how do you suppose they could ever make it work, either in the real world, or while on the island? We know Kate is still running, and should they be rescued, she will either continue to run, or go to prison (perhaps get the death sentence). How would Jack fit in? Would he be willing to chuck it all and go on the run with her?

This is getting rather OT, ain't it? ;)

With someone like Kate, I definitely can. They're two peas in a pod, IMO - - both drifters, both outlaws, both have "murder in their heart".

Let's turn that table for a moment - - can you see Kate in an actual relationship with Jack? Given both of their characters - - Kate, murderess, wanted by the Feds, on the run for her very life, probably for the rest of her life, major trust issues. Jack, stable, grounded, successful doctor, has some daddy and self-confidence issues, sure, but all in all (and compared to Sawyer), a pretty upstanding guy.

So how do you suppose they could ever make it work, either in the real world, or while on the island? We know Kate is still running, and should they be rescued, she will either continue to run, or go to prison (perhaps get the death sentence). How would Jack fit in? Would he be willing to chuck it all and go on the run with her?

This is getting rather OT, ain't it? ;)

I think there's a lot more behind Kate's reasons for killing Wayne than we've been shown, such as protecting someone besides Diane. Jack has been fairly accepting of ppl's backgrounds , Sayid for i.e., & he didn't rag on Charlie when he shot Ethan. He even had compassion for his father after he killed the patient. So I think Jack has a lot more forgiveness/ understanding than given credit for..He's already talking to Ana & knows Kate is a "killer".

Jack is upstanding, but he's had his fair share of moral grey areas & being pushed to his limits (like the torture/signing a falsified statement, & killing the Marshal) & he's definitely emotionally messed up. Both he & Kate were repressed by alcoholic/emotionally abusive fathers whom they each feel responsible for the deaths of, one literally, one figuratively.

One of the things I love about their pairing is that they are willing to make concessions for each other, & they represent what is happening on the island as a whole. Ppl who would have never looked 2x @ each other are finding the missing parts of themselves in one another, as well as being brought out of their myopic POV's-"We're not all that different sweetheart"...Kate should have apologized to Jack for WTCMB, but it was he who put his pride aside for her in HM. She knew he was going through something in ATB, so understood some of the attitude he had. Pnt being if it came down to it, I think Jack/Kate would sacrifice something to be together. Perhaps both choosing to stay on the island. Imo, Kate's character development is working in that direction.

I think JK have a strong foundation for something enduring. Whether or not circumstance allows it remains to be seen. And I'm withholding further judgment on Kate til more info.

hmm i`m not on team jack/kate.
i`m on team saywer/kate.

i think that kate reacted and ran away because jack probably pulled back. they haven`t gone very deep in his relationship (except that he is married to the girl that was in the hospital) so we should find this out soon. ohh this is gonna be great.

i was thinking this while i was watching the kate episode.

love square.
saywer, kate, anna lucia, & jack.

hmm what do you think ?

To Kate, Jack represents good and Sawyer represents bad. I think that Kate ran from Jack and reacted the way she did (after the kiss) because she realized that she's more attracted to bad (Sawyer) than to good (Jack). She wants goodness in her life, but is drawn in the other direction. Bummer.

To Kate, Jack represents good and Sawyer represents bad. I think that Kate ran from Jack and reacted the way she did (after the kiss) because she realized that she's more attracted to bad (Sawyer) than to good (Jack). She wants goodness in her life, but is drawn in the other direction. Bummer.
My logic follows a different train of thought on that...It makes a lot more sense to me she would run from something she truly wants, but doesn't feel she deserves. I thought that was pretty clear from the pre-kiss exchange.She ran from Tom but loved him. With Jack she may even feel like she'll get him killed too.

It did seem as if he was holding back and as if there were too many thoughts going through his head...."Why is she kissing me after she has been sitting at Sawyer's bedside all this time? Does she know Sawyer loves her? Who is watching Sawyer right now? Does my breath stink?"

Oh, Jeesus! (LOL)

I'm so glad I decided not to take a sip of my coffee when I read the last part of your post, otherwise, my monitor would be sprayed right now. Genius.

I don't know how I feel about the kiss. Like some of you have mentioned, the whole thing seemed rather awkward, and Foxy looked so uncomfortable...like he was being forced to kiss his cousin, or someone he thinks of as a little sister...I don't know. As far as Kate goes, I think she got caught up in the moment and was perhaps trying to confirm what she wants to feel towards Jack...to give her a reason to not feel whatever she feels towards Sawyer...? The woman's a walking conundrum...who can tell what's going on with her half the time? Seeing horses and murdered dads...pull yourself together woman!

Oh, by the way...this is my first post. So...hello everyone! :biggrin:

Addendum:

I just read this and I had to respond.

I mean can you actually see Sawyer in a relationship?

In short, yes.

I think the more we learn about Sawyer via backstories, and as his character grows, we'll get to see "James", the person that hides behind the persona of "Sawyer" to keep himself from getting hurt. I believe that person is extrememely vunerable, yet very big hearted--wanting and needing to be loved (although he trys to deny it) than we know. To see that person, who's never been in love before try and figure out how to go about actually being in a relationship, should be hilarious, sweet, heartbreaking, but definitely compelling.

I don't know how I feel about the kiss. Like some of you have mentioned, the whole thing seemed rather awkward, and Foxy looked so uncomfortable...like he was being forced to kiss his cousin, or someone he thinks of as a little sister...I don't know. As far as Kate goes, I think she got caught up in the moment and was perhaps trying to confirm what she wants to feel towards Jack...to give her a reason to not feel whatever she feels towards Sawyer...? The woman's a walking conundrum...who can tell what's going on with her half the time? Seeing horses and murdered dads...pull yourself together woman!

I think the pnt though is that Jack was supposed to be feeling somewhat awkward..Not only was he taken off guard & had all those thoughts going through his head, but we know he as been reluctant to own up to his feelings for Kate. Case in pnt, Sawyer called Kate Jack's girlfriend & Jack neither confirmed nor denied it. Hurley has even said "well that wasn't a denial", so what is he afraid of?

I love how unconventional JK are because by all rights a doctor/criminal shouldn't love each other...Jack had to rationalize his feelings for Sarah, "Should I marry her dad?". I do believe he loved her, but that's not a question you ask if the person is the love of your life. Thus I think he just feels for Kate & can't intellectualize it....

In answering my own q, I think Jack was cheated on & badly burned by Sarah. Possibly involving a child because of his comment in DNH "what if I can't be a good husband, a good father."

So Jack was struggling w/wanting to give in to the kiss, & being afraid he'll be hurt again. He didn't want Kate to leave, & for him I think that's a pretty big step & says a lot.

I think the relationship Kate has with both men is very unconventional. The upstanding doctor falling for the fugitive. The con man who knows better than allowing himself to fall for a woman, especially a woman like Kate who's potentially as dangerous as he is. The fugitive allowing herself to develop feeling for both...all those elements make this triangle so intriguing.

The kiss, the declaration of love, seeing the horse, confronting the spirit of "Wayne", however a person interprets it (and yes, the whole thing is up for several interpretations) the writers did a marvelous job of amping up what was already complicated and messy, to become even more so. And of course, throwing Ana Lucia into the mix makes it all the more deliciously sinister. The stage is set for a serious showdown..and I, for one, can not wait! :D

Ok lets vote, is it Cinderalla Story or Mr and Mrs Smith? I vote for the dead marshall.

Oh yeah the Jack/Kate kiss. Kate was like 'Did I just kiss a tree trunck?' And Jack was like 'Oh my god I just got sloppy second?'

Ok lets vote, is it Cinderalla Story or Mr and Mrs Smith? I vote for the dead marshall.

Oh yeah the Jack/Kate kiss. Kate was like 'Did I just kiss a tree trunck?' And Jack was like 'Oh my god I just got sloppy second?'

Ha! I vote for the dead marshall, too. :biggrin:

Ok for what it's worth, I think Jack likes Kate put dosen't trust her, he still dosen't know what she did right? I also thinks he likes her because he had no intention of leaving her with Saywer after he told Jack he loves her, whomever that maybe, whatcha think?

Ok for what it's worth, I think Jack likes Kate put dosen't trust her, he still dosen't know what she did right? I also thinks he likes her because he had no intention of leaving her with Saywer after he told Jack he loves her, whomever that maybe, whatcha think?

Uh...no, Jack doesn't know what Kate did specifically. Yes, I believe he does like her, but doesn't trust her. And I'm unsure about Jack not wanting to leave her in the hatch after Sawyer said, "I love her."

Wasn't it right after he heard Sawyer say he loved Kate ( according to Jack). Of course he didn't put all his efforts in to it! I think he felt guilty that he was kissing a girl that someone loved- and he thinks that Sawyer and Kate slept together.....

That is what I really want to see. Sawyer and Kate sleeping together. That would totally make the show. That is why I think Jack wasn't into that kiss. First, I think she surprised the crap out of him, then he thought about what Sawyer had said, that he loved her, and was probably feeling guilty. Plus, the Kate Sawyer kiss was probably the hottest kiss in T.V. history. No way to compare. I really hope Sawyer and Kate hook up...in more ways than one!!! Jate has no chemistry. Skate does.

That is what I really want to see. Sawyer and Kate sleeping together. That would totally make the show. That is why I think Jack wasn't into that kiss. First, I think she surprised the crap out of him, then he thought about what Sawyer had said, that he loved her, and was probably feeling guilty. Plus, the Kate Sawyer kiss was probably the hottest kiss in T.V. history. No way to compare. I really hope Sawyer and Kate hook up...in more ways than one!!! Jate has no chemistry. Skate does.
Jack couldn't have looked any more like he was on cloud 9 imo. I'm not disagreeing he had all those things going through his head & he held back. However, as a metaphor-when you take a bite of something sinful & delectable, you pause, sort of let the flavor wash over you & savour it-that's what I saw here. Jack looked pleasantly surprised, as if he floated w/her kisses & was seemingly bereft she stopped when she pulled away.

I thought it was passionate/desirous & there are different kinds of kisses for different times. A kiss like Kate/Sawyer's in this moment would have been out of place & inappropriate for the emotional material it was born out of. Sometimes the kisses are heated, & other times longing and loving as I feel this one was. So you shouldn't compare because it's apples to oranges imo. I preferred JK's & think they have smoking chemistry. I can't wait for further developments. This kiss only made me want more.

That's funny how people see different things in a show. I saw the kiss as nothing more than Kate trying hard to make it feel right and Jack just being stunned that she was doing that at that moment in time when she's freaking out. Women do and say things at the strangest times that men never understand. I think this was one of those moments because he pretty much said so when he told Al that all women are crazy. Just my 2 cents! Hi Banshee!!!

That's funny how people see different things in a show. I saw the kiss as nothing more than Kate trying hard to make it feel right and Jack just being stunned that she was doing that at that moment in time when she's freaking out. Women do and say things at the strangest times that men never understand. I think this was one of those moments because he pretty much said so when he told Al that all women are crazy. Just my 2 cents! Hi Banshee!!!



I agree 100%. Her kiss totally caught him by surprise, and that's the way it was intended to be shown. Jack was trying to figure out why she kissed him and I
don't think Kate even knew, as her face afterwards showed. Kate obviously has
feelings for Jack as he has feelings for her. As far as her kiss with Sawyer, it almost seemed like a pity kiss to me. She felt sorry for him, being tied up, the note and all.
I do think they have good chemistry though.

That's funny how people see different things in a show. I saw the kiss as nothing more than Kate trying hard to make it feel right and Jack just being stunned that she was doing that at that moment in time when she's freaking out. Women do and say things at the strangest times that men never understand. I think this was one of those moments because he pretty much said so when he told Al that all women are crazy. Just my 2 cents! Hi Banshee!!!
hey Jo :hug:

I think Jack was stunned for sure, but in a good way. Imo, afterwards you could really see how much that kiss meant to him. And his behavior in Hunting Party would support that.

Kate has shown feelings for Jack all thorughout the series. And she is a person who keeps walls up until she feels vulnerable. I.e. when she saw Jack walk out of the cave in, the script clearly indicates if she had time to think about it, she wouldn't have hugged him like she did, but she was going off of what she felt...And in my HOTRS script it says "a big part of her wishes more than anything in the world he were asking her to be Eve, but that's not the part of her calling the shots." In otherwords, she wanted to go with Jack but it felt too much like she was conceding they wouldn't be rescued & she therefore couldn't run anymore.

It seems to me her kiss w/Jack mirrored the one w/Tom, whom she genuinely loved. The comfort they both offered her in those moments simply reminded her of why she cares for them, thus she gave in to her feelings..So imo, it wasn't Kate's heart calling the shots after she kissed Jack, but rather her conditioned response that kicked in. She ran from Tom both when he was alive & when he got killed, Diane, & Sgt Austen- everyone she cared for. Yet on the island Kate has no where to run to. I think that would unsettle her coupled with the fact Tom rejected her & Jack did not.

as a metaphor-when you take a bite of something sinful & delectable, you pause, sort of let the flavor wash over you & savour it-that's what I saw here. Jack looked pleasantly surprised, as if he floated w/her kisses & was seemingly bereft she stopped when she pulled away.

I thought it was passionate/desirous & there are different kinds of kisses for different times. A kiss like Kate/Sawyer's in this moment would have been out of place & inappropriate for the emotional material it was born out of. Sometimes the kisses are heated, & other times longing and loving as I feel this one was. So you shouldn't compare because it's apples to oranges imo.
That was well put for words banshee!:smile: You have a way with words! My feelings exactly. I felt like Jack savored it. Stunned that Kate stood back away after the kiss. And he was unsure how to act/what to say when she ran away. Hope we see more of them!

I thought the kiss was hot! Kate was upset and she struggled to get away from Jack and she started crying. Jack's like "Everything's goin to be ok." And then, BAM!

well said, banshee. :clapping: exactly mirrored what i am about to say... though, i am having second thoughts..was it all because of how intense the moment was..that resulted to the kiss or...was it all the magnetic field in the island :lol:

Jack couldn't have looked any more like he was on cloud 9 imo.
So this (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=829&pos=469) and this (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=829&pos=462) is Jack's "cloud nine" face?

IMO, he looks like he's about to barf.

So this (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=829&pos=469) and this (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=829&pos=462) is Jack's "cloud nine" face?

IMO, he looks like he's about to barf.
The first one is when he realizes she's backing away..and the second imo, yes. It's an expression as if he can't believe how much he just felt.

You can see subtle things like how his forehead is winced in an almost "it feels so good it hurts way" & how he chases her lips. It was like he was "floating" with Kate's kisses. And when she pulled away he appeared bereft as if he didn't want her to stop.

http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=829&pos=456
http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=829&pos=460

Kisses need not be of adult film star quality to signfiy love/emotional passion.

That look on his face is pure 'omg I cant believe she just kissed me' He was obviously too stunned to react. because the kiss afected him more than he would've thought. Then when he didnt react Kate thought he didnt care, that it meant/done nothing for him so she got more upset and left.

I would have to agree that I think there was definate passion behind the kiss. Jack could have ended the kiss but it was actually Kate. I think she freaked herself out by doing it and ran because she left herself in a very volnerable situation and Jack was in shock too and did not respond soon enough.

I do think Kate and Sawyer have chemistry. I mean, duh, the producers have said there is a love triangle. Therefore there will be feelings involved on all fronts. No matter what happens there will be people extremely excited and others extremely upset.

As I posted somewhere else, I do think Kate and Jack will end up in the long run together because since they first met, the writers have hinted at it. Much more than they have with Sawyer. I feel (and again it is just my opinion), that the chemistry we see between Sawyer and Kate is a lot physical but not emotional. I don't know. There is no way to please everyone. We will all just have to wait and see.

So this (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=829&pos=469) and this (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=829&pos=462) is Jack's "cloud nine" face?

IMO, he looks like he's about to barf.

You think barf really? :eek2:

In the first picture, he looks like he just wants to comfort her and in the second picture.......wowza.....oops sorry *my thoughts* :D

In the second picture he looks like he wants more. If I were writing the script, it would say *come hither echos Jack's thoughts*.

well all i can say about this matter is that 'DAMN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ME KISSING HIM' well at least i wish it was anyway. matthew is so hot!!! im only 16 and wow does he look fine for a man who is probobly more than double my age. but argghhh hes so sexy!!! hu out there also thinks it should have been them kissing him in that scene:kiss:

well all i can say about this matter is that 'DAMN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ME KISSING HIM' well at least i wish it was anyway. matthew is so hot!!! im only 16 and wow does he look fine for a man who is probobly more than double my age. but argghhh hes so sexy!!! hu out there also thinks it should have been them kissing him in that scene:kiss:

I'm sure the whole den feels that way and most Jaters :biggrin:

well all i can say about this matter is that 'DAMN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ME KISSING HIM' well at least i wish it was anyway. matthew is so hot!!! im only 16 and wow does he look fine for a man who is probobly more than double my age. but argghhh hes so sexy!!! hu out there also thinks it should have been them kissing him in that scene:kiss:

lol, hey emy, you should drop by the FoxDen and the Jater Couch (the links are in my siggy), something tells me you'll fit right in :3:

lol as much as I LOVE Jate, I wanted Jack to be kissing me as well :redface:

lol as much as I LOVE Jate, I wanted Jack to be kissing me as well :redface:

get in line, JCD, get in line, lol :winkkiss:

You think barf really? :eek2:

Really really. I honestly think he looks like he's about to be sick. I'm not saying that's because he was disgusted by the kiss or something, he just looks nauseated to me. Jack has some puzzling facial expressions to be sure.

Thatlook to me looked 100% shocked. I mean really one minute he sees Kate in the hatch saying everything's fine then he find her in the jungle acting really strange, starts yelling at him that she's sorry she's not as perfect as he. then breaks down crying and kiss him. Jack as a typical man didnt see any of that coming and he certainly didnt expect her to kiss him. And all that happening shortly after he hear Sawyer say he love her. Plus that very well might've been the first woman to kiss him since Sarah.. so yeah he was taken by surprise, shocked and froze for a second there which made Kate panic and ran off which confused Jack even more. No wonder he looked so frustrated while chopping wood and the comment to AL about not if you can prove all woman are crazy or something like that.

I've read the first three pages and the last page of posts on this thread - I'm in work and can't really afford to read all 14 pages, so sorry if my thoughts mirror anyone else's that have already been posted.

Jack had just heard Sawyer say that he loves Kate. The snowball or seed of realisation began in Jack's mind that what had been simmering since very early in season 1 (Sawyer/Kate chemistry) was actually beginning to manifest itself. He's an intelligent, perceptive and observant man, and moral with it.

I think he's big enough to accept that it's not going to happen with him & Kate, and the feeling he got during the Jack/Kate kiss reflected or even watered the seed of realisation/acceptance that Kate/Jack wasn't meant to be.

To me, even though it was Kate who physically backed away, it was actually Jack backing off much more subtly DURING the kiss that made Kate back away physically, ending the kiss. I think it was an excellently acted kiss, particularly by Jack. We got this release of sexual tension that we all hoped was there between Jack/Kate and we were disappointed.

I think Kate did kiss him out of despair and wasn't in her right mind.

And at the end of Psalm 23 (I think), doesn't Jack give the antibiotics to Sawyer in Kate's presence in an almost chipper manner? It seemed to me that the most uncomfortable person then was Kate.

Don't feel sorry for Jack - he's going to get Ana-Lucia, isn't he? ;)

Mark

just one thought: Jack & Kate have NO CHEMISTRY????

OMG guys,i guess we don't watch the same show!!!!! :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:

about that kiss...well,it was SO full of emotions..i loved it! kate WANTED to kiss him.no doubt about it!

i think they need to kiss again.......for awile

i think they need to kiss again.......for awile

couldn't agree more :biggrin:

they weren't the only ones left breathless...

that kiss was hot damn!

and foxy sure lives up 2 his name lol
100%
which is funny, because I've never gotten so weak at the knees myself by just watching a kiss

I have to disagree (sorry!) i don't think they have chamistry. The kiss was like brotherly and sisterly kiss and it was too embarassing to watch.

I have to disagree (sorry!) i don't think they have chamistry. The kiss was like brotherly and sisterly kiss and it was too embarassing to watch.

In my personal opinion I thought that the game I've Never, played by Sawyer and Kate was way more chemistry packed than any interaction, including the kiss between Jack and Kate. I felt you could cut the romantic tension with a knife. Just my own observation.

I loved the kate/sawyer kiss Bcause it was just the kiss without any boring romantic music.

In my personal opinion I thought that the game I've Never, played by Sawyer and Kate was way more chemistry packed than any interaction, including the kiss between Jack and Kate. I felt you could cut the romantic tension with a knife. Just my own observation.

I think we see chemistry if we want to see chemistry. I am completely neutral about either of these ships and I have yet to see any chemistry at all between any of them. There are sparks here and there from both camps but nothing that screams "This is the one!"....and that's just my own observation as well.

Jack/Kate kiss = romantic tension and depth of feeling (actors carried it off really well)

Sawyer/Kate kiss = awareness and sexual tension (actors carried it off really well also)

Charlie/Claire Kiss = sweet acceptance and hope (actors carried it off really well again)

There wasn't much chemistry Kate and Sawyer have more in commen then Jack and her

Jack/Kate kiss = romantic tension and depth of feeling (actors carried it off really well)

Sawyer/Kate kiss = awareness and sexual tension (actors carried it off really well also)

Charlie/Claire Kiss = sweet acceptance and hope (actors carried it off really well again)

erm i don't know anything about a charlie/claire kiss. Is this later?

I truly love jack and kate kiss! It was so sweet and I want another one!

I loved the kate/sawyer kiss Bcause it was just the kiss without any boring romantic music.

yeah i agree....sawyer/kate kiss seems only TRUE! REAL as it was written in the script.... it appears to be a revelation for both of them...

The jate kiss...has music and kate's hands and all...as if they have to add all this "fake" things to make the kiss better...something sounds FAKE and kate's reaction confirms that to me...

i think kate's reaction is interesting...
-skate kiss.... she doesn't want to kiss sawyer, she probably thinks she won't appreciate the kiss.... and this is the revelation...it was great and she stopped it before it became real...

-jate kiss....she wants to kiss jack, she sees him as her redemption, she probably thinks it will be the best kiss ever.... and bam....it's not so great....

that's how i see things! The two kisses are the opposite....like yin/yang white/black ....the scenarists love that!;) :biggrin:

I reason I love the Jack/Kate kiss is because she puts emotion into it. I mean if you think putting your hands on the person you're kissing face is "fake" then I'd reexamine that. To me that shows heart and care.

Let me just say this…. If Sawyer's hands were not tied up when he was shoving his tongue down Kate’s throat he'd have his hands all over Kate.

I’m not going to try to say which kiss was better, because we will never agree on it knowing as we both interpret scenes differently. But, let me just say this….. I don’t think that Kate stopped the kiss between Sawyer and her because it was getting “to real” as you put it, I think she slapped him because she was disgusted with him at the moment. But let’s not get into that.

I thought the Kate/Sawyer kiss was kind of gross, just because it was so inappropriate at the time. I would've slapped him too, more than once.

The Kate/Jack kiss was very emotional. I though it was acted out very well.

I find the Kate/Jack romance coming across as more believable, natural. Two people who get nervous and giddy and sweaty palmed around each other, but refuse to give into it. The Kate/Sawyer thing feels like it's being forced on me, but maybe that's just because I'm the type that would run so fast from a guy like Sawyer I can't grasp the idea that a woman could feel anything more than a physcial attraction to him. However, there are women that go through life continuing to put themselves in a position to be a victim so that aspect of it is very believable.

I don't really care who ends up with the girl or if either one of them end up with the girl as long as the writers don't start polluting the story with gratuitous sex to appease one half or both halfs the audience that wants to see their favorite hunk get it on in the jungle.

I thought the Kate/Sawyer kiss was kind of gross, just because it was so inappropriate at the time. I would've slapped him too, more than once.

The Kate/Jack kiss was very emotional. I though it was acted out very well.

I find the Kate/Jack romance coming across as more believable, natural. Two people who get nervous and giddy and sweaty palmed around each other, but refuse to give into it. The Kate/Sawyer thing feels like it's being forced on me, but maybe that's just because I'm the type that would run so fast from a guy like Sawyer I can't grasp the idea that a woman could feel anything more than a physcial attraction to him. However, there are women that go through life continuing to put themselves in a position to be a victim so that aspect of it is very believable.
.

ITA. This is a great description and I share your thought.
I don't even consider Skate kiss because it wasn't for real feelings, imo.

I wasn't going to comment on this one... because I kinda feel like I'm biased (Skate shipper) ... but since I'm confined to this part of the board (scared of spoilers... so I'm pretty much stuck in episode threads of the ones I've seen) ... here's my two cents... which has likely been said already...

Right before Kate kisses Jack, she says that she's not perfect like him... or as good as him... I think Kate does have feelings for Jack... but this kiss is not about having feelings for him, this kiss is about wanting to have feelings for him... I think she views Jack as the safe choice and as someone said earlier "redemption." I think she was trying to create what she wanted...

and I don't think it worked...

When she went back to Sawyer, I think she implicitly revealed something to us... there's no way her & Sawyer are getting together unless he changes... because he reminds her of Wayne... and well... that's not the greatest thing...

You're saying that Kate could view Jack as a "safe" choice, but I say the same thing about Sawyer. Let me just run with what you are saying. (Suppose I believe there is a "safe" choice) I think Sawyer would be the "safe" choice for Kate. Kate is so used to guys treating her like crap. (Not saying Sawyer treats Kate like CRAP) But he certainly does seem to try to get her upset and toy with her emotions when he doesn't get what he wants. I think If Kate were to go with Sawyer it could be the more "safe" choice because he is like other guys she's dated before... The southern tough guy type. Who is more into her physical looks..

Jack on the other hand would be a less "safe" kind for Kate. He is a foreign type of guy that's she not used to. He treats her like the human she is, (not the criminal she is) He calls her on the mistakes she makes during present time, not the past mistakes. He is different from all the other guys she has dated he's a breath of fresh air, something that Kate truly needs.
Let me say this though. The reason I think Kate is afraid to get close to Jack is because of what happened to Tom. I guess you could say Tom and Jack are somewhat similar. Kate is afraid that if she gets close to Jack the same thing that happened to Tom will happen to Jack. She's afraid of killing the man she loves. She already thinks she killed him once..... A second time would be devastating. Sorry if I'm getting a little bit to Jatery.... It's in my blood!! :p (I'll save the rest for the Jatercouch)


I don't believe Jack nor Sawyer would be a safe choice. Both relationships would take a lot of hard work and trust. And one would end up getting hurt. There is no "safe" choice.

You're saying that Kate could view Jack as a "safe" choice, but I say the same thing about Sawyer. Let me just run with what you are saying. (Suppose I believe there is a "safe" choice) I think Sawyer would be the "safe" choice for Kate. Kate is so used to guys treating her like crap. (Not saying Sawyer treats Kate like CRAP) But he certainly does seem to try to get her upset and toy with her emotions when he doesn't get what he wants. I think If Kate were to go with Sawyer it could be the more "safe" choice because he is like other guys she's dated before... The southern tough guy type. Who is more into her physical looks..

Jack on the other hand would be a less "safe" kind for Kate. He is a foreign type of guy that's she not used to. He treats her like the human she is, (not the criminal she is) He calls her on the mistakes she makes during present time, not the past mistakes. He is different from all the other guys she has dated he's a breath of fresh air, something that Kate truly needs.
Let me say this though. The reason I think Kate is afraid to get close to Jack is because of what happened to Tom. I guess you could say Tom and Jack are somewhat similar. Kate is afraid that if she gets close to Jack the same thing that happened to Tom will happen to Jack. She's afraid of killing the man she loves. She already thinks she killed him once..... A second time would be devastating. Sorry if I'm getting a little bit to Jatery.... It's in my blood!! :p (I'll save the rest for the Jatercouch)


I don't believe Jack nor Sawyer would be a safe choice. Both relationships would take a lot of hard work and trust. And one would end up getting hurt. There is no "safe" choice.

Good point...

I agree that neither relationship would be easy... there are different dynamics to each... If she's with Sawyer she has to confront a part of who she is that she doesn't want to confront, if she's with Jack, she has to confront the part of herself that she considers to be missing ("I'm not as good as you" and all that fun stuff) ... either way she's confronting something... yet... I still think Jack would be the "safe" choice... because there's nothing dark there... yes... it might be tough for her... but I think she could pretty much guarantee herself a happy ending... and in that scene... (and only in that scene) I think she really wanted to feel like she was one of the good guys... and to her Jack is the epitome of good...

I don’t think that Kate stopped the kiss between Sawyer and her because it was getting “to real” as you put it.

it's in the script...;)

"Kate approaches him. Squats down on her haunches. Gets
close. Looks into his eyes. He looks back.
And her is the first kiss on LOST.
What makes it interesting is that even though it starts out
as a chore -- a necessity -- somewhere about three or four
seconds in, it becomes something ELSE. And just before it
actually goes from something else to REAL...
Kate pulls away.
And we milk this delicious moment afterward for all it’s
worth. And despite the insanity of the circumstances under
which it happened, both of them felt something. Finally -- *
and when Sawyer talks to her now, it’s softer -- that kiss *
did something to him -- some of his swagger is gone -- he’s *
just a man now --"

here's the adress:
http://www.pressexecute.com/scripts/index.html
(page 42 of "Confidence man")

100%
You're saying that Kate could view Jack as a "safe" choice, but I say the same thing about Sawyer. Let me just run with what you are saying. (Suppose I believe there is a "safe" choice) I think Sawyer would be the "safe" choice for Kate. Kate is so used to guys treating her like crap. (Not saying Sawyer treats Kate like CRAP) But he certainly does seem to try to get her upset and toy with her emotions when he doesn't get what he wants. I think If Kate were to go with Sawyer it could be the more "safe" choice because he is like other guys she's dated before... The southern tough guy type. Who is more into her physical looks..

We don't know what type of guys she was dating before! The only guy we know in her past is Tom...and he's not the type you describe to me!



Let me say this though. The reason I think Kate is afraid to get close to Jack is because of what happened to Tom. I guess you could say Tom and Jack are somewhat similar. Kate is afraid that if she gets close to Jack the same thing that happened to Tom will happen to Jack. She's afraid of killing the man she loves. She already thinks she killed him once.....

i agree on that, she's afraid of killing the man she loved....but in "what kate did"....the guy she almost killed because of his wayne problem wasn't jack...it was Sawyer....:rolleyes: and that's why she was completely lost and confused (remember why jack come to her in the forrest?;) )

Speaking of Tom and Sawyer, they complete each other in a funny way....it makes Tom Sawyer!:biggrin: and i love to think one guy is her past and the other her future! lol

I'm a Skate fan, but for this one, I gotta say I prefered to Jate kiss. The Kate/Sawyer kiss wasn't for real feelings, I agree. Kate just did that to do a favor. But the sad thing with the Jate kiss, is that Kate and Jack just make like anything happened after they kissed. They don't even mention it until ep 2x19 I guess... Anyway, it's no big deal lol.

I'm a Skate fan, but for this one, I gotta say I prefered to Jate kiss. The Kate/Sawyer kiss wasn't for real feelings, I agree. Kate just did that to do a favor. But the sad thing with the Jate kiss, is that Kate and Jack just make like anything happened after they kissed. They don't even mention it until ep 2x19 I guess... Anyway, it's no big deal lol.

Well, there's so much in it...

I'm a Skate fan, but for this one, I gotta say I prefered to Jate kiss.

Waouah! You are a weird skater!:biggrin: i consider the kiss between sawyer and kate has the best one on a tv show ever!:cool: :biggrin:


the jack/kate kiss was the typical kiss you have on a tv show to me...not bad but not great!

it's in the script...;)

"Kate approaches him. Squats down on her haunches. Gets
close. Looks into his eyes. He looks back.
And her is the first kiss on LOST.
What makes it interesting is that even though it starts out
as a chore -- a necessity -- somewhere about three or four
seconds in, it becomes something ELSE. And just before it
actually goes from something else to REAL...
Kate pulls away.
And we milk this delicious moment afterward for all it’s
worth. And despite the insanity of the circumstances under
which it happened, both of them felt something. Finally -- *
and when Sawyer talks to her now, it’s softer -- that kiss *
did something to him -- some of his swagger is gone -- he’s *
just a man now --"

here's the adress:
http://www.pressexecute.com/scripts/index.html
(page 42 of "Confidence man")

100%


We don't know what type of guys she was dating before! The only guy we know in her past is Tom...and he's not the type you describe to me!




i agree on that, she's afraid of killing the man she loved....but in "what kate did"....the guy she almost killed because of his wayne problem wasn't jack...it was Sawyer....:rolleyes: and that's why she was completely lost and confused (remember why jack come to her in the forrest?;) )

Speaking of Tom and Sawyer, they complete each other in a funny way....it makes Tom Sawyer!:biggrin: and i love to think one guy is her past and the other her future! lol


LMAO!! "Tom Sawyer" ... I like that... !!

.. besides... I was just watching the season 1 dvd, and they were talking about how every detail is created very specifically (the books read, etc) ... so who knows...

Thanx for posting that link... I went & read the script for "Outlaws" & for a Skate fan... it made my day...

On a side note... personally.. neither kiss at this point was really all that amazing for me... I definitely prefer the Skate kiss... but it wasn't where I'd like it to be...

As for Tom Sawyer you should look on internet the description of Tom Sawyer's character and you will be surprised i think.... there's so much sawyer in it!

As for freckless...you should look on Candy.... candy and terry... remember? he calls her freckless.... and they have exactly the same type of relationship...

yes i know for the books....if you're a skate fan you should read "lancelot" by Walker percy...;the book sawyer is reading in the epi 15 season 2 ....it's a really great book....and it makes me think of skate a lot....

Sorry....i know it's the topic for the jate kiss...i'm already gone!

Right before Kate kisses Jack, she says that she's not perfect like him... or as good as him... I think Kate does have feelings for Jack... but this kiss is not about having feelings for him, this kiss is about wanting to have feelings for him... I think she views Jack as the safe choice and as someone said earlier "redemption." I think she was trying to create what she wanted...

and I don't think it worked...

When she went back to Sawyer, I think she implicitly revealed something to us... there's no way her & Sawyer are getting together unless he changes... because he reminds her of Wayne... and well... that's not the greatest thing...Considering Kate's character, she imo is a person who puts up a tough front until vulnerability purges her real feelings. I believe Damon referred to it as her "emotional tsunami"....Script notes from MOTH re:the hug state that she takes off for Jack on pure instinct because if she had time to think about what she was doing, she likely wouldn't do it (para).

Continuing on that line of thought, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's quite evident to me that her kiss with Jack mirrors that of the one with Tom...Both happened during highly charged emotional times & we know she had genuine love for Tom. So it stands to reason the same could be true of Jack. And that her kissing him was not because she was trying to create a false reality, rather than being reminded in that moment why she cares so deeply for him. More simply put, her upset was merely the catalyst for her walls coming down.

As to why she ran, I think the reasons are twofold; (a) Tom made her feel ashamed & embarrassed she had kissed him. Thus imo out of Pavlovian response, she presumed Jack thought it was a mistake & would reject her (b) she became overwhelmed by how the kiss physically gave credence to what she already felt emotionally. And she couldn't process/deal with how that changed everything.

Taking that last point & expanding upon it, later in the FW script it says of Kate watching Jack/Ana walking out of the jungle that she is surprised by her own jealousy. It even becomes so evident to Sawyer that he teases her about it & uses it to his advantage in TLC...All of the above indicates to me that Kate has been in serious denial about her feelings for Jack.

In terms of him being her meal ticket to redemption..having the love of a good man can validate her self esteem to a certain extent. However, she had the love of Sam, Tom (at least platonically), & her mother-all of which were "good" people & she still didn't feel worthy . Therefore it doesn't make much sense to me that possessing Jack in whatever manner would magically free her of her burden.... I think as time has gone on, & by seeing good in Sawyer/flaw in Jack in particular, she's learned that redemption comes from within. It's not something you can get from someone or something else like a toy plane... If anything, I believe Jack has given her the tools to empower herself because she's been influenced by him & his philosophies. But that's very different from doing the work for her like being her redemption token suggests.

Lastly, I would deem Jack safe in the sense that Kate knows she can trust him implicitly with her secrets, vulnerability, & emotions. He makes her feel secure & I don't see that as negative. However, people gravitate toward what they know-good or bad. As was said she sees parallels between Wayne/Sawyer & Wayne is what she was exposed to/understood most of her life... Jack has regarded her intellectually & emotionally above her sexuality, & unlike the other "good" ppl she had in her life-he hasn't betrayed her or rejected her outright. Not to mention she knows Sawyer inside & out because he has the same tendencies/habits she does...So I think Jack is both new emotional landscape to her as well as a conundrum because many of his ways are so different from her own.

Oh dear. The subjective it wasn't as hot as the other kiss thread. I fast forward through the Sawyer/kate kiss myself because it gave me the creeps but that's just me..and that was before I had an opinion about Sawyer one way or the other. However this kiss had the potential for being 'hot' but Jack just 'knew' too much and didn't know how to react. It was hot up to a point...when she grabbed him and he just reacted...wow. :) It was real on his part..not a game like it was that time with Sawyer. So that part of it was 'hot' and the fact that Kate didn't have to be talked into it..

I do think this kiss would have been different if Jack did not know what he knew. If he was just randomly wandering through the jungle and Kate suddenly grabbed him and kissed him...well..let's just say he might have reacted differently ;)

I think as Kate identifies Sawyer with Wayne she is afraid she might be repeating a pattern her mother began. Go with a bad boy and be miserable. If she goes with Sawyer..she is somehow not 'good'. (I am NOT in any way saying she will be miserable or that Sawyer is as bad as Wayne. Not at all. She is just messed up in her thinking at the moment). She identifies Jack with her 'good' step father and wants to be 'good' and have his approval and probably thinks she will neve have it. She wants something different from both men and so she is in conflict. That is imho why she pulled away from Jack. She doesn't feel worthy enough of him (which is silly but once again its Kate's overtired mind at work..not reality)

And that is my take on the kiss. I keep replaying it and I fast forward through the other one but them I'm almost always in the minority so that doesn't bother me all that much.

I completely agree Elfdream. I dont think you're in that big of a minority. :biggrin:

I gotta say, overall, this was another Kate episode, like WTCMB, where you left it even more confused and disturbed by Kate. The whole Wayne/Sawyer comparison and the fact that she literally views Sawyer as someone who is her biological father was quite a.....unsettling perspective. And ruined any previous fondness i had of the pair, in romantic terms anyways. And Kates mental state, while entertaining to see her lose it, was kind of hard to watch. Just because they leave so much of Kate's character to be so enigmatic, that you dont know where the hell she is coming from. Which is why i personally dont relate or empathize with her at times. And why i found the episode a little distant on the character. The symbolism in the episode was very convoluted as well. Kind of like F+W. No clear message on her character, just confusion. Which Im guessing is what Kate was going through too.

I found the kiss hot, because, well, I'm a guy. And this time, she latched on to the guy and basically sucked his face off. I could never stomach her kiss with Sawyer, because of the circumstances and Kates disgusted face during it. But this one was pretty good. The emotional level made it hotter too. A nice level of uncertainty and passion.

I'm a Skate fan, but for this one, I gotta say I prefered to Jate kiss. The Kate/Sawyer kiss wasn't for real feelings, I agree. Kate just did that to do a favor. But the sad thing with the Jate kiss, is that Kate and Jack just make like anything happened after they kissed. They don't even mention it until ep 2x19 I guess... Anyway, it's no big deal lol.

Thank you for having the courage to say that, even though it isn't the ship you like ... for acknowledging that you preferred at least the set up and circumstances of the Jate kiss, even though the participants weren't who you would have chosen, lol ...



I found the kiss hot, because, well, I'm a guy. And this time, she latched on to the guy and basically sucked his face off. I could never stomach her kiss with Sawyer, because of the circumstances and Kates disgusted face during it. But this one was pretty good. The emotional level made it hotter too. A nice level of uncertainty and passion.

Very nicely coined :)

Continuing on that line of thought, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's quite evident to me that her kiss with Jack mirrors that of the one with Tom...Both happened during highly charged emotional times & we know she had genuine love for Tom. So it stands to reason the same could be true of Jack. And that her kissing him was not because she was trying to create a false reality, rather than being reminded in that moment why she cares so deeply for him. More simply put, her upset was merely the catalyst for her walls coming down.


Hmm... had this kiss occured at any other point in time, I would believe this... but her conflicted emotional state is all about Wayne & Sawyer as she reveals at Sawyer's bedside... she starts talking about feeling something for Sawyer & why that's a bad thing... so if this is running through her head & she's kissing Jack... I don't think that kiss can be about Jack...


[quote=banshee;1079989]
Taking that last point & expanding upon it, later in the FW script it says of Kate watching Jack/Ana walking out of the jungle that she is surprised by her own jealousy. It even becomes so evident to Sawyer that he teases her about it & uses it to his advantage in TLC...All of the above indicates to me that Kate has been in serious denial about her feelings for Jack.


I haven't seen anything pass this ep, so I don't know about this... I may not like it... in fact... I may hate it... but I know she has feelings for Jack... I'm definitely not denying that...


In terms of him being her meal ticket to redemption..having the love of a good man can validate her self esteem to a certain extent. However, she had the love of Sam, Tom (at least platonically), & her mother-all of which were "good" people & she still didn't feel worthy . Therefore it doesn't make much sense to me that possessing Jack in whatever manner would magically free her of her burden.... I think as time has gone on, & by seeing good in Sawyer/flaw in Jack in particular, she's learned that redemption comes from within. It's not something you can get from someone or something else like a toy plane... If anything, I believe Jack has given her the tools to empower herself because she's been influenced by him & his philosophies. But that's very different from doing the work for her like being her redemption token suggests.

This is a good point... she has sort of "been there, done that," but I'm not sure she's reached that heightened state of awareness yet as to what she can and cannot get from others...

On a side note... gotta say... that if this triangle can cause a thread to last this long... it must be a pretty well-evened out triangle...

I found the kiss hot, because, well, I'm a guy. And this time, she latched on to the guy and basically sucked his face off. I could never stomach her kiss with Sawyer, because of the circumstances and Kates disgusted face during it. But this one was pretty good. The emotional level made it hotter too. A nice level of uncertainty and passion.

Exactly! I think that feelings between Jack and Kate made that kiss hotter!

Waouah! You are a weird skater!:biggrin: i consider the kiss between sawyer and kate has the best one on a tv show ever!:cool: :biggrin:


:biggrin: I'm not a 'weird' skater lol. I just think kissing Jack was more appropriate, because it was passionate. Kate kissing Sawyer in season one, it's like Sun kissing Hurley lol. It's obvious it wasn't for real feelings. Anyway, that's just how I feel about this... Plus, if Kate kissed Sawyer in s2 the way she kissed Jack, no problem lol.

Thank you for having the courage to say that, even though it isn't the ship you like ... for acknowledging that you preferred at least the set up and circumstances of the Jate kiss, even though the participants weren't who you would have chosen, lol ...

Thank YOU. :biggrin:

:biggrin: I'm not a 'weird' skater lol. I just think kissing Jack was more appropriate, because it was passionate. Kate kissing Sawyer in season one, it's like Sun kissing Hurley lol. It's obvious it wasn't for real feelings. Anyway, that's just how I feel about this... Plus, if Kate kissed Sawyer in s2 the way she kissed Jack, no problem lol.


i understand your point.... but of course kate and sawyer weren't in love when they kiss.... but does it matter? I'm just judging the kiss...the kiss and the all scene is really great to me...+ this kiss is the beginning of their relationship...it's this kiss who changed Sawyer (cf the script)...who changed kate's opinion about sawyer!
So to me this kiss is a lot better!

The jate kiss...again it's like a lot of kisses on tv shows... + i think this kiss has had a bad impact on their relationship...because she left and jack is mad at her for that ...
+ we don't know kate's feelings for jack... and to me the reason of the jate kiss is as the skate kiss not really great...she's desperate and sees jack as a salvation...so the circumstances are not great to me!

And yes i say you are a weird skater because all skaters i know find the kiss between sawyer and kate really great!:biggrin: One of the hottest kisses on tv! Let's say you're an original skater!:biggrin:


And no, i hope kate will never kiss sawyer like that! Pleaase.... i want a great kiss between them...full of emotions and love...i don't want kate to kiss sawyer because jack has being hurt and she's desperate....no, i really don't want that for skate!;)
And i don't want to see the expression kate has after kissing jack on his face after kissing Sawyer!

The jate kiss...again it's like a lot of kisses on tv shows... + i think this kiss has had a bad impact on their relationship...because she left and jack is mad at her for that ...
+ we don't know kate's feelings for jack... and to me the reason of the jate kiss is as the skate kiss not really great...she's desperate and sees jack as a salvation...so the circumstances are not great to me!


So why are there different opinions about jate kiss? There are so different thoughts about jate kiss: some says that's a love kiss, some says that she wanted to feel a better person, some says that she needed to kiss him, and so on...it it was the common kiss you talked about there won't be this split!

So why are there different opinions about jate kiss? There are so different thoughts about jate kiss: some says that's a love kiss, some says that she wanted to feel a better person, some says that she needed to kiss him, and so on...it it was the common kiss you talked about there won't be this split!


Okay i understand what you mean....but i think it's a characteristic of LOST! When skaters are convinced Sawyer really loves kate...jaters don't see it.... and when jaters see jack really in love with kate skaters don't see it....
so everything seems open to interpretation in LOST! (and not only skaters and jaters scenes)
To me, as a skater, i was worried by the trailer of this episode because i saw there was a jate kiss...but when i saw the episode...i wasn't worried at all...because to me it was clear that this kiss wasn't so great, and that kate doesn't kiss jack because she loves him...and the kiss, itself, like i said i find it common...not bad/not great...

i mean i think if this kiss is open to interpretation is because of what happens before and after the kiss in the episode! but the kiss, and only the kiss...it's not a great kiss to me....it's common that's what i wanted to say!

I don't agree.
I think it wasn't a common kiss because it rappresents a lot of things and I can't say the same for skate kiss. And I'm not speking for the implications or for what happened before or later but for the kiss itself. I see it in this way, but I'm a jater.
Skate kiss for me is lust and stop because that something that became something real, for me, it's only attraction but jate has it from the very beginning from "You're not running now!".

That kiss was TOTALLY about Jack and Kate. She didn't think of Sawyer at all. It was all Jack, all the time!!! The Sawyer kiss only happened because Sawyer saw an opportunity to get a kiss from a hot girl so he made everyone believe he could help someone in need - but of course he had to get something first - so he coerced a kiss. (He would have kissed Claire the same way had she been the one there - or Rose for that matter.) There was no feeling involved. The Jate kiss was all about Jack and the moment. Kate is and was into Jack from day one, and that kiss that she initiated (and not to trick anyone) - was a true blue "all about Jack" kiss!!

That kiss was TOTALLY about Jack and Kate. She didn't think of Sawyer at all. It was all Jack, all the time!!! The Sawyer kiss only happened because Sawyer saw an opportunity to get a kiss from a hot girl so he made everyone believe he could help someone in need - but of course he had to get something first - so he coerced a kiss. (He would have kissed Claire the same way had she been the one there - or Rose for that matter.) There was no feeling involved. The Jate kiss was all about Jack and the moment. Kate is and was into Jack from day one, and that kiss that she initiated (and not to trick anyone) - was a true blue "all about Jack" kiss!!

I think Skate fans are going to see that kiss one way, and Jate fans are going to see it another... that's inevitable... I will say this... there's no way that kiss was clear... because if all she was thinking about was Jack, Jack, Jack .... it'd be really strange for her to be talking about her feelings for Sawyer and how they sickened her a few scenes later...

But I suppose even that's debatable...

One thing I do not think is debatable is this:

(He would have kissed Claire the same way had she been the one there - or Rose for that matter.) There was no feeling involved.

Sawyer would not have set up that kiss with Claire or Rose... Sawyer was trying to push the unacknowledged attraction between the two of them because that's Sawyer... and as far as there being no feelings... this has been said plenty of times before... but read the script... it's written there... that there's definitely some sort of feeling...

Although the Skate kiss isn't the be-all/end-all for me personally (I'd rather see a kiss under different circumstances) ... it was definitely not "just a kiss."

gregg's interpretation:


I can't remember the Reckoning clip show, so I'm not sure how they cut that together.

My interpretation of Kate kissing Jack is neither her thinking with her head or her heart. If I remember correctly, Kate was sort of going crazy then. Did she even say something about being trapped on the island and seeing things? I read her kiss as coming out of that moment of vulnerability and emotional intensity, like she needed an emotional anchor to get her through that moment.

What's interesting is whether she would've done the same thing with someone else, which I think the answer would be no. She wouldn't have kissed Locke. But what if it were Sawyer? That's an interesting thought.

I don't know if there's a right or wrong interpretation. I think it's a nice moment to ponder.

What do you think? i like his interpretation because i feel the same...
i agree with him when he said it couldn't be anyone else but jack...i think it's open to interpretation but to me it's because jack represents the good guy to her, tom.
And what if it were sawyer? i think that's interesting...because i always feel that the jate kiss is un escape...she escapes what she feels for sawyer because he reminds her wayne and she doesn't want to be with him, to feel something for him for that reason...
but if she didn't run from her feelings for sawyer...if she had kissed him instead of jack...what will happen? What do you think?

i see two possibilities:
-she realizes that he's not wayne , she has faced her problem...embrace her problem (lol) and she can live happily with sawyer.... lol
-it confirms that she can't go through the fact that he reminds her wayne and she goes more crazy....:biggrin:

What do you think guys?:confused:

I don't think that Sawyer would be able to calm down Kate just like Jack did, sorry!
It has been Jack because he is the good guy and she wants the good guy. Maybe she had (I write "Had" because I'm sure she hasn't now) feelings for Sawyer but I think that it's clear that she wanted to kiss Jack and not Sawyer.
In fact when she came back in the hatch, she said to Sun: "Where is Jack?" and then she asked "Has he said anything?". So, Jack is her first thought!

I don't think that Sawyer would be able to calm down Kate just like Jack did, sorry!


i don't think that jack has calmed her down considering the way she left him....i personnaly think in this episode it was sayid who calmed her down...when he tells her he had seen walt i think she feels less crazy lol because she's not the only one who sees things...
and it's after talking to sayid that she take the courage to go back to the hatch and face the wayne/sawyer problem!

Kate runs when she isn't able to deal with reality and in that moment reality was the feelings she has for Jack. She runs because she doesn't know if Jack has the same feelings, in fact when he told her she isn't sorry for the kiss she was going to kiss him again...
Sayid probably calmed her down because she was thinking she has mada a crazy thing but in SOS she found it wasn't.

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.

If she kissed Jack because she was attracted to him and really wanted him at that moment, then why did she also run away with a look of horror on her face if she was supposedly meant to be pushing for an affirmationt of how they felt about each other. She initiated the kiss in order to feel something. If it was meant to be that her feelings for Jack were strong and reciprocated....why did she run afterwards? Whatever she felt at the end of the kiss, it was enough to freak her out more, not less. She was not calmed down, and in my opinion looked even more confused about things than before. My take is similar to Gregg's. She was emotionally vulnerable (especially since she thought she was going crazy and seeing Wayne possessing Sawyer and the horse roaming) and hoped that Jack would ground her, save her from the madness. But the kiss was not comforting or what she had hoped for after all. Then later we find out in her confession that all this time she's been running from and denying her feelings for SAWYER, that she hates how she feels for him and yet has been seeing her horrible dad Wayne (whom she despised and killed) in him. For me it was all about transference. Jack was like Sam, in her mind, she wanted Sam (the good dad) to save her and her mum. But he couldn't. She wanted HIM to be her father not Wayne. Just as (in my opinion) she wanted to feel something for Jack more than Sawyer. Which didn't happen. Classic example of getting a wake up call.

For me it was all about transference. Jack was like Sam, in her mind, she wanted Sam (the good dad) to save her and her mum. But he couldn't. She wanted HIM to be her father not Wayne. Just as (in my opinion) she wanted to feel something for Jack more than Sawyer. Which didn't happen. Classic example of getting a wake up call.

completely agree!
this theory makes a lot more sense to me because it explains the whole episode...

the theory who says that jate kiss was great that's why she left makes no sense to me , it's not linked with the whole episode story....the whole flashback and wayne/sawyer thing...and kate saying in the end that it makes her sick feeling something for sawyer...
and it doesn't explain why she sees the horse (redemption, freedom) with sawyer...;)

I think it makes sense. Her feelings for Jack could have been stronger than she realized and it overwhelmed her. She didn't know what to do about it...and ran away.

However her feelings for Sawyer are also very strong...but she reacts to that in a very different way.

The writers said that Jack AND Sawyer are both the 'perfect' man for Kate...I think they are just opposite sides of the same coin.

I personally just wish she would make up her mind. I like Jack more than Sawyer but I'm good with either 'ship'.

I think it makes sense. Her feelings for Jack could have been stronger than she realized and it overwhelmed her. She didn't know what to do about it...and ran away.

I mean in the whole writing process of the episode....each episode has a problematic and the problematic of this one is kate escaping his feelings for Sawyer (her problematic with wayne...she kills wayne in the flashback and bring back to life sawyer it's parallel)... if she had really felt something stronger for jack to me...she hadn't kissed him in the middle of this wayne/sawyer episode.... it makes no sense with this problematic... however if she kissed jack just to try to escape once again to what she feels for sawyer....it's completely in the episode problematic that's why it makes a lot more sense to me!

When she said that she had feelings for Sawyer, that doesn't mean that she has love feelings...it could mean that when she felt the need to be near him when he was sick and he had temperature, or when she was worried about the raft when Sun told her about the bottle...these are feelings too and to me she was just a friend who was worried and she was taking care of another friend. I haven't ever seen Kate having romance interest for Sawyer so, imo, that feelings she has for him are referring to the fact that she was worried for him but she was sick for that because she saw Wayne in him.

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.

If she kissed Jack because she was attracted to him and really wanted him at that moment, then why did she also run away with a look of horror on her face if she was supposedly meant to be pushing for an affirmationt of how they felt about each other. She initiated the kiss in order to feel something. If it was meant to be that her feelings for Jack were strong and reciprocated....why did she run afterwards? Whatever she felt at the end of the kiss, it was enough to freak her out more, not less. She was not calmed down, and in my opinion looked even more confused about things than before. My take is similar to Gregg's. She was emotionally vulnerable (especially since she thought she was going crazy and seeing Wayne possessing Sawyer and the horse roaming) and hoped that Jack would ground her, save her from the madness. But the kiss was not comforting or what she had hoped for after all. Then later we find out in her confession that all this time she's been running from and denying her feelings for SAWYER, that she hates how she feels for him and yet has been seeing her horrible dad Wayne (whom she despised and killed) in him. For me it was all about transference. Jack was like Sam, in her mind, she wanted Sam (the good dad) to save her and her mum. But he couldn't. She wanted HIM to be her father not Wayne. Just as (in my opinion) she wanted to feel something for Jack more than Sawyer. Which didn't happen. Classic example of getting a wake up call.

About the jate kiss. Actually I didn't see a look of horror...sorry but that wasn't a look of horror at all! She was just afraid.
You said that Jack had feelings for her too...but how Kate could have known? She discovered it only after 10 episodes...when Kate kissed Jack she didn't know that he liked her to kiss him...why did you say it? She only knew that she was safe in his hug and it was so sweet!

I have to concur. I didn't see 'horror' either. I saw confusion...maybe even a bit of fear but not of Jack! :D Fear of her own feelings perhaps.

When she said that she had feelings for Sawyer, that doesn't mean that she has love feelings...

i know it's open to interpretation that's why i didn't say love in my post...;)
i just said "feelings" like kate confess in this end of the epi! re read my post!;)

Giuly, well I respect your opinion on the kiss. But I still strongly disagree.

I saw an outcome that was not about being calm, safe or happy from that kiss at all. The episode was about transference and Kate running from her past. Denying her 'feelings' (which obviously were strongly implied to be positive/caring ones or else what would be the point of her trying to deny them?) for Sawyer because she saw 'Wayne' in him and then coming to terms with that. Seeking escape and salvation in Jack (who symbolised her good dad who was going to fix everything and who was perfect in her eyes) and then finding out like she did in the FB that it wasn't going to help, that he couldn't help her as she needed. Hence the theme of flight. I don't deny that she wanted to kiss him, but I think her emotions were all over the place and she sought an anchor, a safe haven from feeling those other feelings which she didn't want to have. I think the eye contact says it all.

When she finally confesses to 'wayne' about how scared/disgusted she is to feel something for Sawyer, it's like the prince is kissed and wakes up (Evi's words in the episode commentary). Then at the end the elusive horse appears adn actually lets her approach and touch it, which to me shows she's finally accepting some of her inner demons and more at peace with herself (now that she's faced why she's conflicted about Sawyer.)

Kate always runs from her past because she didn't like her past and what she did even if she thought it was a good thing for her mum.
BTW she wanted to deny her feelings for Sawyer because (she said it) it makes her sick. But she cares about him so he must accept it.
The black horse was her salvation in that moment of her life...so to me it's not a demon but something good and lucky.
About the kiss: you say that she thought that kissing Jack was like kissing the good guy who can save her...maybe: but in sos did she want to be save again?