Forgive me if label speculation as Spoiler but I am new at this.


Perhaps the book that Desmond took, The Third Policeman?, contained other pieces of the film.

Good call there. The bible had one peice. Sections of that nutty orientation video are still sketchy. However I doubt it has another peice in it...

The main point I like to believe about The Third Policeman is that it indicates sometimes things are just weird. Like the book the Third Policeman.

Even though I haven't read it and know not what it's about.

woh majorly confused me on that one.

You cant refer to something (3rd policeman), refer back to something (like the book the third policeman) than say you dont know what the third policeman is about.

So is the third policeman about fate, coincidence and sometimes things are just weird?? is that the book that was mentioned in the USAtoday article??

Actually..I have read it and Msgrv32 had it pretty much on the button (no pun intended).

Yes, it is the same book. Flan O'Brien wrote it...it is ...strange...very strange....check out Ebay..I got mine for $3...worth it if you can lock yourself in a room with a pint of grandpa's homeade corn gin, a bag of stale chips and Pink Floyd's greatest hits...

Did I mention it is a weird book???

I too have read it and have some perspectives.

]It was never said thought that TTP was needed to understand the story. It was said that it may contain clues to the show.

I think it's an interesting book and came away with some thoughts.

there are 4 thoughts I take away (Spoilers for the Book not the show):
- deSelby's cigar shaped earth theory. Could point to the existence of a dimension alongside the survivors where the 'whisperers' are.
- The fact that for most of the book the main character is dead. The survivors could be dead. I know the producers were supposed to have said they weren't but I have never seen this first hand and am skeptical of this.
- He is destined to repeat this couple of confusing days forever alongside Divney is co conspirator. This could be an indication that the survivors may have to stay on the island forever for their 'crime' OR escape by dying only when they have reconciled their crime.
- The location of 'Eternity' under the countryside. Is there a Dharma site under the island?

I haven't seen a lot more speculation but would love it if other bookreaders would read TTP and post their thoughts.

EDIT: One more thing that I think has nothing to do with the main plotline but the army of one-legged men and the main characters own amputated leg. I don't think this is important to the main plot line but it's an interesting similarity.

I read an article (not sure where it is) about J.J. saying if you read the book you would be ahead of the rest. He didn't say it would give you clues about the show on how it's going to be, but more like give you the mind state. If I see the article I will edit my post.

I wonder if the missing film is inside the stuffed bunny he took with him. Cuz maybe he is going to use it to negotiate with "the others" if he get's caught by them. lol.

Readingbetweenthelines: You make the distinction well. "...ahead of the rest."

I was pleased to see this thread active again. Why?... because I liked the book and would love to hear peoples thought BUT I don't think it's particularly significant. I did however come up with the above thoughts.

One of the things that intrigued me about the book was when the main character was questioning the person whom he had killed. The murdered guy was very cryptic in his answers and the main character figured out that he was only getting "yes" answers. Is that right? It's been a while since I read this book.

Also, there was that weird part about the policemen who hand out colors to all newborn babies. The colors represent the length of the babies' lives and if you can determine what color you have, you know exactly when you'll.

The whole book was definitely weird and I found myself going back and rereading as I was reading because I kept missing things.

He was only getting 'no' answers because 'no' is a much easier answer to give. He then started saying stuff like, "Would you mind telling me all about *such and such*?" and the murdered guy would be obliged to say 'no...." and then he would tell him. :-)

Actually..I have read it and Msgrv32 had it pretty much on the button (no pun intended).

Yes, it is the same book. Flan O'Brien wrote it...it is ...strange...very strange....check out Ebay..I got mine for $3...worth it if you can lock yourself in a room with a pint of grandpa's homeade corn gin, a bag of stale chips and Pink Floyd's greatest hits...

Did I mention it is a weird book???

Tangerine Dream's soundtrack to Midnight Express makes good background music for that read, as well. :cool:

LOL! Too true.

I'm not sure if I wrote this hear but I described the book once as, "the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy as written by Samuel Beckett." ;)

I'm reading my copy over the Xmas break...I need to finish Flowers for Algernon first, then I'm onto the Third Policeman. Next book after that will be Heart of Darkness, which made an appearance in King Kong :)

I too have read it and have some perspectives.

]It was never said thought that TTP was needed to understand the story. It was said that it may contain clues to the show.

I think it's an interesting book and came away with some thoughts.

there are 4 thoughts I take away (Spoilers for the Book not the show):
- deSelby's cigar shaped earth theory. Could point to the existence of a dimension alongside the survivors where the 'whisperers' are.
- The fact that for most of the book the main character is dead. The survivors could be dead. I know the producers were supposed to have said they weren't but I have never seen this first hand and am skeptical of this.
- He is destined to repeat this couple of confusing days forever alongside Divney is co conspirator. This could be an indication that the survivors may have to stay on the island forever for their 'crime' OR escape by dying only when they have reconciled their crime.
- The location of 'Eternity' under the countryside. Is there a Dharma site under the island?

I haven't seen a lot more speculation but would love it if other bookreaders would read TTP and post their thoughts.

EDIT: One more thing that I think has nothing to do with the main plotline but the army of one-legged men and the main characters own amputated leg. I don't think this is important to the main plot line but it's an interesting similarity.
Amputated leg you say?? Incident .... Dr. Marvin Candle ... Amputated Arm??

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Well I pointed it out because of the similarity of course... so *yes* I recognized that it has some relationship with Cande, Robert, farmer Kate met and Sawyer's Hibbs in the show. There was no significant 'incident' related to the amputations in either the book or the show (so far as we know).

So I think that's pretty trite... I would imagine there's no clue there and would suggest looking at the other points.

He was only getting 'no' answers because 'no' is a much easier answer to give. He then started saying stuff like, "Would you mind telling me all about *such and such*?" and the murdered guy would be obliged to say 'no...." and then he would tell him. :-)

Hi Jed. Happy to see a thread on this topic. You make good points about the book. I had a really difficult time reading it! I've tried hard to come up with parallels to Lost - it's difficult - to say the least. I've read that the novel is an allegory - but cannot find any articles that discuss what the actual allegory is! Any thoughts? Karma?? Our characters are doomed to repeat the same scenario with no recollection each time they experience it. - but this doesn't seem to tie into Lost anywhere.

Don't know if it adds to your quote above - but "no" was the answer to question that Divney & our narrator asked Mathers before they killed him. "Is that your parcel in the road?"

I thought that maybe Lost has their own warped Atomic Theory like the one in the book. (where the where the atoms of humans and bicycles intermingle). Two different types of matter that take on characteristics of the other...??

Now, after reading the threads on these boards - Rebellious Rabbits and Drs. & Missing Limbs - that army of one-legged soldiers stands out a little more. They utlimately saved our narrator from being hanged for a crime he didn't commit. (Well, I guess I can't say they saved him if he is already dead.) But it is one thing in the novel that may stand out in relation to LOST.

Well, I look forward to the day where we can say - yes, that's how TTP ties into the show!

Punky: thanks for you props. And THANKS, yes the answer to his last question was 'no'. I hadn't tied this with his answering 'no' all the time in his room. That's classic Flann. :LOL:

I hope there's nothing as zany as the deSelby atomic theory going on. :D It's funny but it would annoy me if something like it was at the root of the Lost mystery.

Allegory huh? I hadn't heard that. I'll go get a shower... that's where I do my best allegorical thinking. ;)

im a fan of the whole thing that de selby was working on a doomsday machine to rid the world of evil.

I saw that dm but remember that the doomsday machine wasn't in TTP. It was in The Dalkey Archives.

i got the book out the library yesterday, andi intend to read it pronto...

One passage from the book did jump out at me. On page 30 Old Mathers reflects on life & says:

"'I discovered,' he said, ' that everything you do is in response to a request or a suggestion made to you by some other party either inside you or outside. Some of these suggestions are good and praiseworthy and some of them are undoubtedly delightful. But the majority of them are definitely bad and are pretty considerable sins as sins go. Do you understand me?'" - The Third Policeman


This passage especially makes me think of Christian Shephard....especially with regard to his conversation with Sawyer in the bar.

After Sawyer walks away from Frank Duckett's food stand - it appears that he has realized he is not capable of killing a man.

But then Sawyer meets up with Christian in a bar. Their conversation starts with Christian saying that Australia is the closest you can get to hell & suggests they are both in hell & that Sawyer is suffering as well. Then he chalks it up to fate.

Christian then asks Sawyer: "This, uh business that you have... will it ease your suffering?'
Sawyer: "Yeah"
Christian: "Then what are you doing here."
Sawyer: "It aint that simple"
Christian: "of course it is - unless you want to end up like me....of course it is."

With that - Sawyer goes off and murders Frank Duckett.

Is the power of suggestion in play here? Or maybe BF Skinners vision of the "manipulable" man?

Thoughts?

Interesting idea Punky. Don't know about that but it's cool. I think there's a linkage to the plotline when Christian unwittingly suggests to Sawyer that he kill Duckett but I don't know about the Mather connection.

I'll tell you what though... It's nice to hear from another who's read the book. :)

i got the book out the library yesterday, andi intend to read it pronto...

it's worth the time, it may confuse your theories more than anything. happy reading.

I'm going to be finished with this book in a few days and then I'll be back (and on other 3rd Policeman threads, to discuss the book.

So far (I'm over 1/2 way through it ... they just started up in the lift from "eternity") I LOVE it! Makes me laugh out loud. :24:

Glad you are liking the book. :) If you post thoughts in other "3rd P" threads let me know where.

Glad you are liking the book. :) If you post thoughts in other "3rd P" threads let me know where.
I am loving it! I can't believe how fast I'm reading it! I'm to the point of his escaping with the bicycle. I read fairly fast but this book is just flying by! I might even go back and re-read it (but not before I begin posting on it) just to see if I missed anything. I've been highlighting things that I think might be clues but there's just so much and some seems too obvious, if you know what I mean, and some "could" be connected. It's a mystery within a mystery!

I'll let you know what other threads I post to when I begin posting. :biggrin:

Well, i know this is the wrong place to make this comment but i read in another thread on a german forum that there is a movie where a man has to push on a button every day at 10:08 am.

I had any clue if this was true cause i never heard of the movie... however ... i made a small research concerning the movie and found out some facts that could stand in a connection to Lost. Beside the bible and TTP this could be another really important source.

Some contents:
- everywhere in the nature there are mathematical patterns. Every process can be described in terms of numbers (f.e. the prices of shares) --> idea of a higher orden
- the key is one number, also declared as "Formula of the world"--> Pi
- examples for patterns: cycle of epidemics, increase and decrease of caribu population, sunspot cycles, high and low water level of the Nile, stock market as organism,
- Fibonacci numbers: theory that every letter is a number f.e. (quoted of an austrian Board) "Vater=AB=1+2=3, Mutter=41, Vater+Mutter=44, Kind=44" or another one
"Garten Eden=144, Baum der Erkenntnis=233" --> all Fibonacci Numbers (check the following links: http://www.lupi.ch/PiSites/pimovie/pi02.jpg http://www.lupi.ch/PiSites/pimovie/pi03.jpg)

Pi by Darren Aronofsky 1997

Today I bought the movie... if there are really links to lost sales figures will go up the next month :D

I'm very familiar with the numbers patterns and there are a tonne of threads on this very thing. I'd suggest taking this discussion there (not flaming) but in short the problem that arises again and again is that 'the numbers' have no identifiable functional progression. i.e. they are not a series.

I can't make sense of your 3rd bullet but will look for your explanation in another thread. :)

jbdean: LOL! Funny as hell how Flann made the bicycle 'sexy'. ;)

Well ok and sorry, i didn´t know about that ;)

jbdean: LOL! Funny as hell how Flann made the bicycle 'sexy'. ;)
Yes! LOL And how the bicycles are supposed to become part of the person and vice versa yet that bike was seen as female. I thought that strange, too.

One thing that I did keep running across is that even though our lead character is purported to have one wooden leg, he is often described as "stretching his legs" or "sticking out his feet." How can one do that if one leg is wooden? Don't tell me if the answer is given after the point that I'm at now.

Oh, one more thing. Up to the point that I'm at, does the book ever mention the name of the lead character? I kept trying to find it, by back tracking after he said he forgot who he was, and couldn't find it anywhere. Did I miss it from the beginning? Don't tell me what it is if it comes after the jail break. :smile:

It seems that the good policeman wanted to keep the bicycle of a woman. It was not his but his infatuation.

The stretching of the legs and references to feet I took as deliberate and ironic. The name: That is certainly a Flann device. He wants us to be as unaware of his name as he is. I thought that was a brilliant touch. :)

It seems that the good policeman wanted to keep the bicycle of a woman. It was not his but his infatuation.

The stretching of the legs and references to feet I took as deliberate and ironic. The name: That is certainly a Flann device. He wants us to be as unaware of his name as he is. I thought that was a brilliant touch. :)
Good! I thought I was really missing something. LOL

I have one chapter left and then I'm up for discussions! :biggrin:

w00t!

Hey Jed - in light of the 23rd Psalm episode - What do you think of the "smokey" in regards to the way 'Omnium' is described in TTP:

As described by MacCruiskeen:

Some people call it energy but the right name is omnium becaues there is far more than energy in the inside of it, whatever it is. Omnium is the essential inherent interior essence which is hidden inside the root of the kernel of everything and it is always the same. ... It never changes. But it shows itself in a million ways and it always comes in waves...Some people call it God and there are other names for something that is identically resembling it and that thing is omnium.

Maybe the 'smokey' is a manifestation of Omnium.

Thoughts?

Fascinating idea. That one is all yours... *I* never thought of that.

Omnium... hmmm. I just laughed at the thought when I read it and never thought it would have anything to do with the smoke. You could be right.

My first interpretation of omnium (means: everything-substance) was that it was just that.... everything. So coal isn't made of carbon... it's made of omnium in the form of carbon.

Your interpretation I guess is based on "But it shows itself in a million ways and it always comes in waves...Some people call it God". Very interesting thought.

Good work. :)

Great thread. Ive been discussing this a little over at abc, dont go there much but didnt seem to be that many people here interested in the idea when it was first mentioned. Im guessing because not many had read the book.

In any case, I read the book in almost every conceivable way and then some and analysed til I went blue in the face. I only really did this on this particular book because of the comments that you would be a little ahead in terms of the underlying scheme of the show.

After the analytical breakdowns of everything from the boxes i.e the ornate box within a box, the box the third policeman opened from the strain of his unbearable curiosity and the old mathers box (linking this to all the box references in the show and the use of ornate boxes throughout) to the lost limbs, I realised it was "the underlying scheme of the show" and not really anything in particular that you had to look at.

So I investigated the author instead and found a great many interesting things with regard him and his books....but sheesh my notes are like a 300 page varsity paper lol.
Im not sure how I would start but it does involve some heavy stuff.

There are Manichaen flavours throughout the book and the research I have is fairly lengthy. Youd have to do your own research on the subject but its a dualistic religion and although not actually "mentioned" in TTP it is used literally in his final book "The Dalkey Archive" where De Selby speaks with Augustine - “far preferable to the Manichaean dualism of light and darkness, good and evil, was Plotinus’s dualism of mind and matter”.

If you look at the book as a whole one thing you might notice when reading it is how the world of the book seems rational and scientific yet somehow tilted or skewed like normality has somehow slipped, pre parish and parish. I felt the normal people in the pre parish world seemed estranged from eachother, suspicious and blind to thier own ugly natures. Similar to the flashback worlds we are presented on the show.

With regards the parish or I consider this the island, we are shown a region that seems to defy the normal rules that govern nature. The parish, like the island seems to bring to light truths and hidden realities that the "normal" world has kept tucked safely in the shadows.

So while the props and literal parts of the book are interesting the overall aspect behind the scenes are even more fascinating and more relevant in my opinion to the shows "underlying theme".

Just started a ship on a voyage of discovering some of the mythologys behind the show relating to the book and other fairly in depth topics (Jung and astrology). Would appreciate anyones inputs or investigations for more analysis.

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=32647

Just started a ship on a voyage of discovering some of the mythologys behind the show relating to the book and other fairly in depth topics (Jung and astrology). Would appreciate anyones inputs or investigations for more analysis.

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=32647
Wow, you've done a marvelous job in summing up those 300 pages! I didn't take the whole book like that but can see what you're saying! I was concentrating on the individual elements that I thought might pertain to Desmond. I really hadn't considered the book sheding light on anyone/anything but him and his situation.

I do want to read it again and do research on the foot notes. I hope there is information on DeSelby in English as I don't read or speak French.

I will also check out your new thread. I am very egar to discuss this book and other items that might give insight to the show.

Punky, when I read your post and quote I was reminded of reading TTP with the reference to omnium, and how it gave me the idea that perhaps O'brien used the word OM or AUM (http://swamij.com/om-mantra.htm#object)as a reference point for omnium.

Some people call it energy but the right name is omnium becaues there is far more than energy in the inside of it, whatever it is. Omnium is the essential inherent interior essence which is hidden inside the root of the kernel of everything and it is always the same. ... It never changes. But it shows itself in a million ways and it always comes in waves...Some people call it God and there are other names for something that is identically resembling it and that thing is omnium.

Similar words: Some say that this everlasting, all pervasive vibration of OM is also the source and intent of Amen, Amin, and Shalom. Some say that this sound is the Word of God.

The subtle sound is always there: A vibration exists, underneath all of the grosser aspects of being, like a substratum. The subtle sound of OM is constantly there, and when heard in deep yoga meditation, sounds like a continuous vibration, ever sounding out mmmmmmm.... At a deeper level, it is extremely loud and serene.

I also liked DeSelby's "black air (http://www.rocknroll.force9.co.uk/science/savant.html)".
Black Air is an unsanitary material, and causes "most" men to believe in the myth of night. He also believed that death was a myth, more likely a symptom of the unsanitary effects of the black air.
Black air is basically invisible volcanic dust which propagates into the air from the planet's volcanos. There is so much of it because mankind has been unkind to the planet for too many years.

Perhaps "Old Smokey" is a combination of the two?

Dylan, I have your link on my reading list !

Omnium... hmmm. I just laughed at the thought when I read it and never thought it would have anything to do with the smoke.

Jed, I had the same thought when I read the book. By definition, Omnion was just too broad in scope - so I just put it out of my mind. The "smokey" in 23rd Psalm made me think of it - so I pulled out my copy of TTP to look at the definition again. It may apply to the "smokey" - just have to wait & see. Glad to have someone agree that it is possible. Thanks.


Similar words: Some say that this everlasting, all pervasive vibration of OM is also the source and intent of Amen, Amin, and Shalom. Some say that this sound is the Word of God.


Briolette, thanks for the link on OM/AUM. Nice catch on O'Brien's choice of OM in omnium as a reference point. It certainly makes sense that O'Brien would do so.

Dylan, will check out your link. Your summary is great.

Just started a ship on a voyage of discovering some of the mythologys behind the show relating to the book and other fairly in depth topics (Jung and astrology). Would appreciate anyones inputs or investigations for more analysis.

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=32647

Dude thats some serious stuff. I love it! I will have to take a look at the ship. Im interested in the Jung stuff as well as the astrology. I am almost through the book and didnt get a thing lmao! Methinks im going to have to read it again with a more open mind. Thanks!

I finished the book! And now I'm re-reading it and have already fround some possible connections within the first chapter.

But on my first reading I was instantly taken by the very first sentence. I am wondering if this is a possible connection to Desmond and Kelvin's "death." We don't know how Kelvin died. Desmond could have killed him. Being stuck in that bunker could make anyone go a bit off ... but then I wonder who John Devney represents? Could it be Dr. Candle or the computer? Could the computer (as it interacts with Michael) have interacted with Desmond and "told" him to kill Kelvin? Or could the race around the world that Desmond was running be running away from the police for a murder he commited off the island? It seems to be a common plotline that those on the island have murder in their pasts. Even Danielle has killed and she's not one of the flight 815 passengers, so why not Desmond?

I may be really reaching but this book is so full of "possibilites" that I'm just going to throw out what I seem to find.

Be kind ... :smile:

I do want to read it again and do research on the foot notes. I hope there is information on DeSelby in English as I don't read or speak French.

JB the footnotes are fictional. There was a bit of a joke there too as you see the footnotes appear slowly and the last few are pages and pages long. :)

Just started a ship on a voyage of discovering some of the mythologys behind the show relating to the book and other fairly in depth topics (Jung and astrology). Would appreciate anyones inputs or investigations for more analysis.

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=32647

I'm curious about your 6 constellations. First if you came up with these on your own (this is not an attack) I wonder how you came up with those six. Second if you didn't what's wrong with the other constellations that have some relationship with Apollo? I can easily think of 6 more.

It may well be that this is correct... who knows but these 6 seem arbitrarily chosen. Granted they may be correct but the promoters of this theory don't do justice to those that don't know there are others.

I first encountered this theory in October and here's what I wrote:

Quite a number of posters (tgs and others) have adopted a theory founded in the 'fact' that there are six constellations associated with "Apollo". Now I happen to like this theory... it's clever.

It's clever but as far as I can determine it is unfounded. I will happily grant that the 2 that are being mentioned are associated with Apollo; this is one of the things I like about the theory... it's not total crappola. The six are:

Cygnus (Swan)
Sagittus (Arrow)
Ophiuchus (serpent handler)
Orion (the hunter)
Corvus (Raven or Crow)
Crater (Goblet or Bowl)
But what about other constellations that are certainly associated with Apollo?

Draco - Dragon
Lyra - Lyre
Scorpius - Scorpion
Serpens - Serpent
Gemini - Twins
Virgo - VirginAll of these constellations have a strong link to Apollo in their heavenly origins... and there may be MORE!

I'm very curious as to where the *six* came from and how they are more relevant that the others. The theory is *wonderful* but you can't just arbitrarily pick one set of six.

Any answers.

A couple of good sites for more info here:
http://www.pooh-corner.org/Archive/constellations.html
http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/CONSTELLATIONS.html


BTW the links aren't comprehensive... some of the connections between Apollo and the other character are based on my own knowledge... you can confirm by Googles. (i.e. Apollo, Draco and Hera's golden apple)

JB the footnotes are fictional. There was a bit of a joke there too as you see the footnotes appear slowly and the last few are pages and pages long. :)
So the website I found on DeSelby (complete with photograph) is fake, too or just the foornotes? I have only looked at a few pages on a google search so far.

Yep. All 'fake'. I don't like calling them 'fake' since they are basically 'fan sites'. You can obviously find sited about Hanso and Candle too but they're similarly 'fake'.

You probably don't believe me but let me ask you... since Flann doesn't mention his first name (that I can recall... I've read the two books he appears in)... can you find it? Also... the pictures. I was intrigued and laughed when I saw them. Do a Google image search on "Flann O'Brien". ;)

Yep. All 'fake'. I don't like calling them 'fake' since they are basically 'fan sites'. You can obviously find sited about Hanso and Candle too but they're similarly 'fake'.

You probably don't believe me but let me ask you... since Flann doesn't mention his first name (that I can recall... I've read the two books he appears in)... can you find it? Also... the pictures. I was intrigued and laughed when I saw them. Do a Google image search on "Flann O'Brien". ;)
Do you mean the name of the main character in TTP?

I will do a search on goggle for those pix. Thanks!

No. Flann O'Brien was the author (and not his real name either... his real name was Brian O'Nolan)

I'm curious about your 6 constellations. First if you came up with these on your own (this is not an attack) I wonder how you came up with those six. Second if you didn't what's wrong with the other constellations that have some relationship with Apollo? I can easily think of 6 more.

It may well be that this is correct... who knows but these 6 seem arbitrarily chosen. Granted they may be correct but the promoters of this theory don't do justice to those that don't know there are others.

I first encountered this theory in October and here's what I wrote:



BTW the links aren't comprehensive... some of the connections between Apollo and the other character are based on my own knowledge... you can confirm by Googles. (i.e. Apollo, Draco and Hera's golden apple)

This is exactly why I started the Hunters group lol. Id initially seen the constellations posted way back in Oct/Nov last year and found some site that only showed the 6. Darn it if I cant find the site now, suffice to say Im absolutely relieved I may have been wrong. I knew there were more but took the info Id seen at face value and got 'one track minded' stuck.

Jed you would be a perfect crew member for us hunters. If you have the time, pop by.

Dyl

Alright alright... I'll come by. I posted here since I didn't want to dissent in your 'ship'. ;)

Fascinating idea. That one is all yours... *I* never thought of that.

Omnium... hmmm. I just laughed at the thought when I read it and never thought it would have anything to do with the smoke. You could be right.

My first interpretation of omnium (means: everything-substance) was that it was just that.... everything. So coal isn't made of carbon... it's made of omnium in the form of carbon.

Your interpretation I guess is based on "But it shows itself in a million ways and it always comes in waves...Some people call it God". Very interesting thought.

Good work. :)

What do you all make of this quote from The Third Policeman?

"Sitting at home with my box of omnium I could do anything, see anything, and know everything with no limit to my powers save that of my own imagination. Perhaps I could use it to extend my imagination. I could destroy, alter and improve the universe at will."

What do you all make of this quote from The Third Policeman?

"Sitting at home with my box of omnium I could do anything, see anything, and know everything with no limit to my powers save that of my own imagination. Perhaps I could use it to extend my imagination. I could destroy, alter and improve the universe at will."
When I read that in the book, it made me think of Hanso. We don't really know much about him but from that shot of him in the building's window ... looking all high and mighty as he looks down his nose at the "little people" below him, he looks like he could be very "power hungry."

It makes me think of Anthony Cooper as well as Hanso. Both of them seem power hungry to me.

Here are some of my thoughts on the book. I'm still reading it, so I'll be adding to this as I get farther into it.
http://xgirl30.blogspot.com
(I'm posting a link rather than posting the text because it's kind of long)

" I could destroy, alter and improve the universe at will."

Sounds to me like Walt. Maybe his powers are not defined and within his control....yet.

i finished reading it about a week ago, i dont think anything can be too deeply read into it.

firstly can i say i loved the book from start to finish. it was brilliantly creative, funny and hideous. the whole De Selby stuff was a stroke of genius, im glad the powers that be recommended it.

all i can think of was that it may have given a major clue as to what was down the hatch if it was read before we knew what was down there. some unknown device that must be monitered or all hell breaks loose, a device/ joke created by another person.

apart from that i thought that maybe Hanso and whoever were doing some crazy experiments in line with De Selby, trying to make light out of sounds, and the like.

When I read that in the book, it made me think of Hanso. We don't really know much about him but from that shot of him in the building's window ... looking all high and mighty as he looks down his nose at the "little people" below him, he looks like he could be very "power hungry."

I agree. Now the question (assuming we can relate this quote to Hanso's involvement): Is Hanso attempting to "destroy, alter and improve the universe at will." ? Does he want to destroy the universe? Alter the universe? Or improve the universe? OR does he want to destroy the known universe, do some alterations, and then create an improved universe???

Maybe I'm off on a wild tangent. Maybe I just need a dose of a new episode tonight...

I agree. Now the question (assuming we can relate this quote to Hanso's involvement): Is Hanso attempting to "destroy, alter and improve the universe at will." ? Does he want to destroy the universe? Alter the universe? Or improve the universe? OR does he want to destroy the known universe, do some alterations, and then create an improved universe???

Maybe I'm off on a wild tangent. Maybe I just need a dose of a new episode tonight...
I like the idea and the relation. He definitely has some sort of Machivaelian plan up his sleeve. Maybe hes a symbolic devil. In a small parallel to TTP if we took that elevator ride deeper into hell and met the devil himself, would you consider him Hanso? I personally consider the islands setting the parish and at the heart of Hansos secrecy in the real world.
I think we just need our lostaways to come to terms with thier own destinies in order to fulfill whatever part they have to play. Maybe thats what Lockes destiny was, to help the others come to terms and to open doors for them to enter. In order to fulfill it the island gave him the use of his legs immeadiately because it was essential.

I just posted this in the transhumanism thread and thought it applies here also:

We feel for our losties - which maybe causes us to play down their crimes in our analysis of them. Example: I like Sawyer - his smartass sassy remarks are great... So I like him - but he did kill Frank Duckett. Whatever the circumstance, the choice was utlimately his and he chose to commit murder. Why am I rooting for him?

That kind of perception reminds me of the townsfolk in the pre-parish world of The Third Policeman. The townsfolk think that the characters Divney and the Narrator are "the best two christians in all of Ireland" because of their close friendship. Neither is without the company of the other. They are always together and the townsfolk perceive this as a testament to their deep friendship. The reality of the situation is Divney and our Narrator have a deep mistrust of each other. They will not allow one to be without the other as a result. The townsfolk erroneously perceive them as "good" - when the reality is that they are "bad".

Maybe that is the parallel to the book - are we like the pre-parish townfolk in TTP - Do we have the wrong perception of our losties and the others?

Thats very true Punky...nice one. O'Nolan seems to make a mockery of public opinion in the pre parish world. They saw old mathers as a "queer mean man" and as you said Divney and the narrator as "the best 2 christians".

If we the general public can mistake 2 double crossing murderers for loving best friends, what else is O Nolan proposing we misread.

Somehow after the fire + water episode I think this element of the book is reflected most. Sheesh our timing is perfect lol. Although in TTP ONolan does give us the pervading feeling that whatever we might assume about a character its tinged with the worst possible scenario.

Charlie is being seen by the general group as gone off the deep end. In this scenario our Charlie is being villified and outcast. They see him in the worst possible light and true to form we know there perception is lacking and they are misreading his situation, seeing only the worst.

Is it also a possible reference as to how the dreams affecting Charlie and the normality that the survivors are trying to maintain definitely do not mix. You couldnt try to begin to lead a normal life in the parish, thats ridiculous. So how could they or we begin to think they should try to settle in on the island (parish) and create something normal.

This in some way begins to answer the question that maybe they are there for a reason and those who are having these dreams and experiencing the islands mysteries are closer to that design then the others, or have a more important role to play.

Requires more thinking.Ouch lol.

Hi, and first let me say I would like to become a mythology hunter, please!
I've studied a lot of the subjects involved at one time or another. It's been about 15 years since I read Augustine, but I wouldn't mind brushing up on Manicheism.

RE 3P, read that about 15 years ago as well, think it's an amazing work, and I was thrilled the LOST team used it. So I read it again. The problem with figuring out what they're going for isn't finding something that could be relevant, more that so much could be relevant, how to know what element?

Of the themes posted here, most occurred to me as I read it, so good, it looks like a lot of us see the same stuff. I enjoyed this thread a lot, lots of stuff to make me think, now I'll throw out some bits and pieces I've been mulling over:

1) not sure if someone mentioned this:

The Two Policeman, with their serious attention to the "readings" in their underground Eternity, and their constant monitoring, can't help but remind me of Desmond and the Losties monitoring the computer and responding to the alarm.

The two Sergeant's give the impression that the world might come to an end if they don't make it a priority to keep the readings within range, as does Desmond re not pushing the button. They are diverted from the hanging over such an alarm.

Then at the end you find out that "Fox" is basically yanking their chain by making the readings fluctuate with his "omnium" from the black box. In retrospect, the very serious tour the 3P narrator was given of the Eternity underground turns out to be not what he thought was going on, nor did his guides know the truth. Point being that the hatch and button set-up may be serious to Desmond and the Losties but a manipulation by a third party ... which has always been a possibility, as Desmond and Jack discussed.

Quote of possible interest:
"he had been sitting in this room presiding at four ounces of this unutterable substance, calmly making ribbons of the natural order, inventing intricate and unheard of machinery to delude the other policemen, interfering drastically with time to make them think they had been leading their magical lives for years, bewildering, horrifying, and enchanting the whole countryside."

2) Re "answers" and "easter eggs"
The narrator (as with our Losties, we sympathize with him even though a murderer, as has been noted, and that seems important)--spends most of the story trying to figure out WTF is going on. He has crashed and now all the rules have changed, and he keeps getting weird information and bizarre explanations that he keeps assimilating into his view of reality. No matter how weird it is, he eventually accepts it.

The answers come like nested boxes,.. each time he gets an answer his former understanding is called into question so he throws out one set of "assumptions" and embraces another, which is then shattered--and finally, when it seems it gets the ultimate explanation from Policeman Fox and is off to his home to find his omnium, the essence of everything ... he learns he is dead (yes I know the writers have confirmed the "dead" part is not what they are going for): this has the interesting effect of making every single thing he learned in the course of his search for answers rather pointless.

Which in turn, completely tweaks the reader of 3P who has been collecting answers, or trying to. One ends up with as much "useful" information as someone who spends his whole life trying to track down the life and work of deSelby (the fake commentators impersonating each other are the best). In the end, the value of the story is in the entertainment value of the journey and not about conclusion, or answers.

3) Re Guilt and "karma":
there is one lesson the narrator does seem to learn. He has spent the whole story trying to avoid the consequences of his crime and hoping that he's getting away with it. He keeps thinking he is caught (first by Mathers) and then he thinks he's OK. Then he is to be hung for a crime he didn't do and he feels righteous about trying to avoid that, although he deserves to be hung for the original crime ... then he thinks he finally escapes and what's more will be lord of the universe with his omnium. In the end he finds out he never got away with it for a second and never will. So that too could apply to the Losties.

4) Eccentric physicists:
This has been noted but I want to agree that there's an analogy between the deGroots and deSelby-what exactly if anything that means for Lost I don't know, but their experiments on the film have a somewhat absurd quality and we hear that deSelby was a great experimenter and was even arrested, sued, and hoarded water, etc.. lots of trouble as a result of his bizarre activities.

5) Is this how we'll feel when we solve the mystery of the island?

"Like everything that is hard to believe and difficult to comprehend ... it is very simple ...
"It did not look simple--what I saw."
"You thought there was magic in it, not to mention monkey-work of no mean order?
"I did"
"But it can all be explained, it was very simple and the way it was all worked will astonish you when I tell you."
_________________

6) Re 23 and 3P: did someone list the occurences? You know that lists of "23" that preceded LOST already mentioned it was an important number in 3P, right? Well, the ones I found:

On the 23rd of June Fox looked in MacKruiskeen's box and saw a color that doesn't exist. He also talked to Sgt MacKruiskeen on that day and supposedly went mad.
Nov 23: Sgt. Pluck had a nightmare and dreamed of a "slow puncture."
O'Feersa is 23% bicycle and his bicycle is 23% O'Feersa.
The most important day in the narrator's life comes when he is 16, and is on the 7th. 16 + 7 =23.

A symbolic 23? For most of the book you see 2 Policemen. The 3rd is a rumor. Then you meet the Third Policeman. So 2 becomes 3.

23 is a juxtaposition of duality (2) with trinity (3), Matter and Spirit. The third element of the Trinity is the Holy Ghost, which may be analogous to the elusive Third Policeman in a comic sort of way.

I suggest this because Joyce played with the 2/3 symbolism in Ulysses so it's not farfetched for another Irish writer to be playing around with the dualism/trinity theme.

And I think that's much more than twice enough for one post. ;)

Hi, and first let me say I would like to become a mythology hunter, please!
I've studied a lot of the subjects involved at one time or another. It's been about 15 years since I read Augustine, but I wouldn't mind brushing up on Mannicheanism (sp?).

...................................
And I think that's much more than twice enough for one post. ;)


<--------------------------------- Stands and claps....Encore!

Great work OFG and very nice first post! Welcome!

Click on the Hunter link in my sig, say hello to the group and Ill post a number for you! We'd be very happy to have you aboard.

All I can add to your ideas are...well....to be honest, not much except very nice.

The manichaen aspect to Flanns TTP novel are well known and although not seen throughout the book, certainly verified in The Dalkey Archives. Cant wait to try to put the puzzle pieces together.

Dyl.

TAke a look at the below review for the book. The part abount thd darkness is intresting.

is one of the strangest novels I have ever read. It was written in about 1940, but not published until 1967, a year or two after the author`s death. O`Brien is a pseudonym for the Irish writer Brian O`Nolan, who was also a celebrated newspaper columnist using the name Myles na gCopaleen, the latter name apparently Gaelic. O`Brien`s masterpiece is At Swim-Two-Birds, which was published in 1939. A selection of his "Myles" columns is also well-regarded. However, The Third Policeman is what I saw in the bookstore when I went looking for something by O`Brien, and it wasn`t a bad choice.

This novel is quite funny, quite absurd, and, at bottom, very disturbing. The narrator is a very unpleasant man, who announces in the first sentence "Not everybody knows how I killed old Phillip Mathers, smashing his jaw in with my spade;" not only is he a murderer, but a very lazy man who ruins his family farm, and spends his life researching the works of a madman named De Selby, who believes that, among other things, darkness is an hallucination, the result of accretions of black air. The narrator relates his early life briefly, leading up to his association with another unsavory character, John Divney, who parasitically moves in with the narrator and helps squander his inheritance. Divney and the narrator plot to kill their neighbor, Phillip Mathers, to steal his money. After the murder they decide to leave the money for a while until the coast clears: however they distrust each other so much that they never leave each others company. Finally they go to Mathers`s house to fetch the strongbox with his money: then Divney sends the narrator ahead to the house alone, while he stands lookout, and things get very strange!
The narrator meets Phillip Mathers, acquires a sort of soul which he calls "Joe", and sets out looking for three mysterious policemen. The first two are easily found, and the narrator discusses bicycles, boxes, and other unusual subjects with these policemen. Finally they decide to hang him (for bicycle theft, I think), but he is rescued by the league of one-legged men (the narrator himself has but one leg). He returns to Mathers` house where he encounters the third policeman, and eventually is reunited with John Divney.
The above summary, obviously, does not represent the action or interest of the book at all. The book is full of off-the-wall philosophical speculations, some based on the mad works of De Selby, others original to the policeman (the latter including a theory about bicycles and their riders which has to be read to be appreciated, also a mysterious trip to an underground cavern where anything you can imagine can be created). There are a lot of footnotes discussing De Selby and the controversy surrounding his work: these make the book somewhat reminiscent of Pale Fire by Vladimir Nabokov (also reminiscent in being the first-person narrative of an insane murderer). I`m sorry, I`m running out of time, but this is a very different book which I strongly recommend.

There is also reference in The Third Policeman to the lost art of being able to read the color of the wind. Early in the book, Mathers (the murdered man) asks our main character (the murderer) what his color is. He explains that winds that come from different directions are different colors. Your color is based on what color the wind is when you are born. Your color then gets slightly darker each year and when it become black, you die.

Mathers explains that when he was born one of the policemen went outside and observed the color of the wind (yellow). Another possibility is that someone could be born during a black wind, indicating a very short life. Mathers talks about this being a lost art (reading the wind)

In the book, deSelby is also talked about as being interested in how modern people / civilized people have become more separated from nature and more weak over time - such as with the building of houses and the interest in more "inside" activities as opposed to spending time outside.

I was thinking about what we refer to as "the black smoke" in Lost - and Locke and Eko (so far) being able to "read" it. Maybe they are reading the wind and not smoke / monster? Locke and Eko also seem very capable in the outdoors - very "survival" equipped.

Not a deep theory here but just a potentially interesting connection.

The reference in Lost to The Third Policemand made me re-read it and I agree with folks who have said it puts you in a certain "mindset" in terms of thinking about Lost. I would say the same of The Turn Of The Screw (also about dead / undead) TTP is not a long book and can probably be read in a day be most people. I recommend it.

The Turn Of The Screw is available through project gutenberg! Yay!
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext95/tturn10.txt

This is my first post so I hope it's not a dumb one. If this has already been posted please let me know. On pages 158-160 of the book the sergeant talks about a man that went up in a balloon to make observations. The balloon is given several miles of rope and when it's finally pulled in the man is gone. After a few days they send the balloon back up and it comes back with the man in it. He wouldn't tell anyone what happened, which angered everyone. So they decided to torture him and force him to tell them where he was. But when they arrived at his home they saw that the wind had lifted the balloon and when they pulled it back down he was gone again. This reminded me of Henry Gale because of the balloon/torture, but I don't know what it could mean. I just paraphrased this so I might have said something incorrectly.

There is also reference in The Third Policeman to the lost art of being able to read the color of the wind. Early in the book, Mathers (the murdered man) asks our main character (the murderer) what his color is. He explains that winds that come from different directions are different colors. Your color is based on what color the wind is when you are born. Your color then gets slightly darker each year and when it become black, you die.

Mathers explains that when he was born one of the policemen went outside and observed the color of the wind (yellow). Another possibility is that someone could be born during a black wind, indicating a very short life. Mathers talks about this being a lost art (reading the wind)

Good point ljh - I'd forgotten about 'reading the wind'. The idea that your color represents your lifespan follows the theme of predestination. From Wikipedia:

In a predestined universe, the future is immutable and only one set of events can possibly occur.

I saw this theme played out at the end of TTP - where our Narrator ends up back at the police station - destined to relive the same horrible episode over and over. Thanks for reminding me of the 'reading the wind' angle! Check out CrimsonRabbit's 'The Watchmen Approach" thread - it is a great read on the theme of predestination in LOST and probably why I'm so into the idea of Predestination in LOST:

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=38267


This is my first post so I hope it's not a dumb one. If this has already been posted please let me know. On pages 158-160 of the book the sergeant talks about a man that went up in a balloon to make observations. The balloon is given several miles of rope and when it's finally pulled in the man is gone. After a few days they send the balloon back up and it comes back with the man in it. He wouldn't tell anyone what happened, which angered everyone. So they decided to torture him and force him to tell them where he was. But when they arrived at his home they saw that the wind had lifted the balloon and when they pulled it back down he was gone again. This reminded me of Henry Gale because of the balloon/torture, but I don't know what it could mean. I just paraphrased this so I might have said something incorrectly.

Welcome toadlift! Really good observation. You got me interested in what the whole balloon episode in TTP represented. From the following link: http://www.qub.ac.uk/en/imperial/ireland/obrien.htm

O'brien's subversion of bildungstroman and flight into a non-realist surrealistic mode is suggestive also of a more pressing discontent with the Irish Free State and its intolerance of difference. The balloon episode functions as an allegory of a tendancy to prohibit freedom and intrude upon the privacy of the individual.

Sergeant Pluck concludes:

"That is a nice piece of law and order for you, a terrific indictment of democratic self-government, a beautiful commentary on Home Rule."

So it was a socio-political commentary by O'brien. I, too, don't know what the whole balloon/Henry Gale dilemna means - but maybe it is a commentary on the Losties forming their own 'intolerance of difference'.

Anyway, I am more an more surprised at the number of correlations that can be made between Lost and TTP. Love this thread!:smile:

i heard the book was a commentary on einsteinian physics. it also seems to be a place where strange things are possible seems to be the main idea.

Here's a link to nice article talking about The Third Policeman and some ways that it plays in with the show. Warning: may contain spoilers!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-2079743,00.html

Thank you JB.

The article sums up the similarities quite nicely.

It will be interesting to read the stories all the way through and see what subtle connections may be there.

Does the Mathers name not mean something? It seems somehow familiar or important? Perhaps one of Kate's Aliases/Pseudonyms?

I have just finished reading TTP and thought i would add my musings to the list.
I read the book with the sole aim of finding some parrallels to lost and here is what i came up with:
1. When our hero, or anti-hero, finally meets the third policeman the policemen explains to him how all of these strange things have been happennind in the parish. Without ruining the ending we soon find that this explanation, while at the time being entriely believeable, is infact pure ****. Lost: so i reckon we will get a satisfying resolution to everything on the island until all of this is rubbished in the end, revealing the even greater mystery which goes above Dharma and the others into a realm we may not have even considered.
2. The book is littered with logical scientific facts that are however, completely unrealistic. The science in the parish is based on one interpretation of the evidence on offer. The same could be said for lost- we are given evidence- smokey, EM etc seems completely unreasonable in London or wherever one lives but on the island, with all its secrets and illogical sightings- dead people, polar bears etc it seems completley logical, hence why the losties have failed to really question whats going on.(that has pissed me off too- apart from Locke noone seems to care that all these nutty things are going on, wheres the intellectual debate???)
3. Maybe allready mentioned, the circular notion of the book. The anti-hero and his accomplice forgetting everything that went before and again finding themselves talking to the policemen. Applying this to lost: our current losties eventually replace the others in their Dharma role, and inflict the same pain on another set of Losties who arrive towards the end of the series. Their ability to do this- forgetting everything that went before.
This is of course all hypothesis but the book offers two potential elements of the ending at in a way explains the questionable science of the show.
Worth the read though- very clever.
Thoughts? (1st post)

I think there is some more pieces to the film because thats what i think Locke was doing with all the books in the Long Con or whatever episode that was... maybe Locke has noticed another portion of the film that skips.

the Orla Barry Show on Newstalk 106 (http://www.newstalk106.ie/) (Dublin), talking about Lost and The Third Policeman.
Download an MP3 of the BBC show » (http://blather.net/sound/lost_third_policeman.mp3)

the Orla Barry Show on Newstalk 106 (http://www.newstalk106.ie/) (Dublin), talking about Lost and The Third Policeman.
Download an MP3 of the BBC show » (http://blather.net/sound/lost_third_policeman.mp3)

Hey, Bobby...

I have a silly question for you: Do people in Ireland celebrate St. Patrick's Day? I wasn't sure...embarrassed, but not sure about this holiday in Ireland...

Thanks,

Junie

the Orla Barry Show on Newstalk 106 (http://www.newstalk106.ie/) (Dublin), talking about Lost and The Third Policeman.
Download an MP3 of the BBC show » (http://blather.net/sound/lost_third_policeman.mp3)

Thanks for the links Bobby, nice to hear an opinion form the horse's mouth so to speak, Anthony Cronin.

Cronin, Anthony. No Laughing Matter: The Life and Times of Flann O'Brien. (New Island Books, 2003) ISBN 1904301371

Hey, Bobby...

I have a silly question for you: Do people in Ireland celebrate St. Patrick's Day? I wasn't sure...embarrassed, but not sure about this holiday in Ireland...

Thanks,

Junie
ya of coarse we do, he's our patron saint, so we all go out and get legless for 3 days solid, its great
100%
Thanks for the links Bobby, nice to hear an opinion form the horse's mouth so to speak, Anthony Cronin.

Cronin, Anthony. No Laughing Matter: The Life and Times of Flan O'Brien. (New Island Books, 2003) ISBN 1904301371
no problem, personally i haven't read the book, but i came across this link researching it ! glad u liked it

I have a silly question for you: Do people in Ireland celebrate St. Patrick's Day? I wasn't sure...embarrassed, but not sure about this holiday in Ireland...
How bout I give you the American perspective on this...
I was invited to do a staff development session in Dublin last March for about 40 teachers at (of all places) St Patrick's College. As I was booking my travel my wife informed me that I would be arriving on St. Pats Day and was I sure this was a good idea. Having lived in Boston for a number of years, I knew that SPD could be wild and raucous. I called the professor who assured me that it wasn't a real big deal and that the day after was actually a good day for our workshop. I skeptically booked the travel and planned the workshop wondering if anyone would show up and what shape they woudl be in if they did.
When I got to Dublin I went out to the curb to pick up a bus to my hotel and found hundreds of what appeared to be American kids out partying, being loud and generally drunk. The planes coming in (especially the RyanAir ones) were teeming with kids who were in various states of inebriation. I thought I may have made a mistake.
I made it to my hotel with no problems at all and then decided to get a bite to eat at the hotel bar. I, of course, ordered a Guiness beer and asked the bartender if they had green beer today. He looked at me like I was completely nuts. The bar was mostly full, but people just seemed to be out for the night, nothing special. I later asked the bartender if SPD was a big deal here and he told me that the only big deal was all of the American kids who come into town and use it as an excuse to party it up.
The next day I gave my workshop and we were oversold. All the teachers arrived either early or on time and thought it very funny that I was concerned that they would not be in any shape to work through the day. They were all MUCH more excited about the Rugby matches (both the local HS and the country teams were playing) going on and were all off to matches that evening. I was very surprised by all of this, but ended up having a great time in Dublin (I highly recommend it on any trip to the EU).
The funny thing is St Pat himself was very much against drinking and would be probably be incensed at the way he is celebrated.

ya of coarse we do, he's our patron saint, so we all go out and get legless for 3 days solid, its great
100%



How funny, Bobby! I like the "legless" comment. In my 20's, I would have really "appreciated" that...:biggrin:

lol, sounds about right Dan ! :cheers: :beer: :drunk:

ya of coarse we do, he's our patron saint, so we all go out and get legless for 3 days solid, its great
100%


legless, never heard that one before! My mother (half Irish, half Iroquois)
would have loved that!

How bout I give you the American perspective on this...
I was invited to do a staff development session in Dublin last March for about 40 teachers at (of all places) St Patrick's College. As I was booking my travel my wife informed me that I would be arriving on St. Pats Day and was I sure this was a good idea. Having lived in Boston for a number of years, I knew that SPD could be wild and raucous. I called the professor who assured me that it wasn't a real big deal and that the day after was actually a good day for our workshop. I skeptically booked the travel and planned the workshop wondering if anyone would show up and what shape they woudl be in if they did.
When I got to Dublin I went out to the curb to pick up a bus to my hotel and found hundreds of what appeared to be American kids out partying, being loud and generally drunk. The planes coming in (especially the RyanAir ones) were teeming with kids who were in various states of inebriation. I thought I may have made a mistake.
I made it to my hotel with no problems at all and then decided to get a bite to eat at the hotel bar. I, of course, ordered a Guiness beer and asked the bartender if they had green beer today. He looked at me like I was completely nuts. The bar was mostly full, but people just seemed to be out for the night, nothing special. I later asked the bartender if SPD was a big deal here and he told me that the only big deal was all of the American kids who come into town and use it as an excuse to party it up.
The next day I gave my workshop and we were oversold. All the teachers arrived either early or on time and thought it very funny that I was concerned that they would not be in any shape to work through the day. They were all MUCH more excited about the Rugby matches (both the local HS and the country teams were playing) going on and were all off to matches that evening. I was very surprised by all of this, but ended up having a great time in Dublin (I highly recommend it on any trip to the EU).
The funny thing is St Pat himself was very much against drinking and would be probably be incensed at the way he is celebrated.

How funny (or not, depending upon your point of view, I suppose)!!! Leave it to the stereotypical Ugly American to degrade the Irishmen's holiday!!! Young Americans and their alcohol...ugh! Maybe, that's why Euros don't have too much of a problem with young people and drinking problems...it's legal...when I was in France in high school, we went crazy over the fact that we could walk in to a store and buy alcohol. The French kids just laughed at us...:biggrin:
100%
legless, never heard that one before! My mother (half Irish, half Iroquois)
would have loved that!

Bri...just wanted to say what a great combination...how pretty...:)

Leave it to the stereotypical Ugly American to degrade the Irishmen's holiday!!!
i would go blaming the americans, we do our fair bit 2 !

i would go blaming the americans, we do our fair bit 2 !

Hey, I'm glad you feel that way...I wouldn't want you to hate or dislike all Americans for getting drunk all over Ireland on St. Patrick's Day! Thanks!

Hey, I'm glad you feel that way...I wouldn't want you to hate or dislike all Americans for getting drunk all over Ireland on St. Patrick's Day! Thanks! lol, no-way we love the americans here, except maybe the commander in chief, where i live, Ennis, we gets tons of american tourists every year its great to meet them:biggrin:

It seems to me that on St. Pat's Day everyone thinks they are Irish. Or is it just me?

It seems to me that on St. Pat's Day everyone thinks they are Irish. Or is it just me? true..but who doesnt want to be irish...were the best...kiss me i'm irish..*MWOAH* :pile: everybody join in!:biggrin:

ok, were gone way off topic, mostly my fault we better stop....where were we...flan o brien...lol

lol, no-way we love the americans here, except maybe the commander in chief, where i live, Ennis, we gets tons of american tourists every year its great to meet them:biggrin:

I'm glad to hear it! I always wanted to be Irish - or at least an American that had Irish ancestors. Unfortunately, that is not the case. The, ahem, Commander in Chief is not so popular over here lately, FYI...anyways...happy LOSTING!

It seems to me that on St. Pat's Day everyone thinks they are Irish. Or is it just me?

Ha, we are all Irish on St. Pat's Day !

(Thanks Junie...she was interesting...nice to hear her stories...we use to tease her about being the Irish Earth Mother.)

Banshees...wonder if the ol' "Smokey" is banshee-like?

Great thread. Ive been discussing this a little over at abc, dont go there much but didnt seem to be that many people here interested in the idea when it was first mentioned. Im guessing because not many had read the book.

In any case, I read the book in almost every conceivable way and then some and analysed til I went blue in the face. I only really did this on this particular book because of the comments that you would be a little ahead in terms of the underlying scheme of the show.

After the analytical breakdowns of everything from the boxes i.e the ornate box within a box, the box the third policeman opened from the strain of his unbearable curiosity and the old mathers box (linking this to all the box references in the show and the use of ornate boxes throughout) to the lost limbs, I realised it was "the underlying scheme of the show" and not really anything in particular that you had to look at.

So I investigated the author instead and found a great many interesting things with regard him and his books....but sheesh my notes are like a 300 page varsity paper lol.
Im not sure how I would start but it does involve some heavy stuff.

There are Manichaen flavours throughout the book and the research I have is fairly lengthy. Youd have to do your own research on the subject but its a dualistic religion and although not actually "mentioned" in TTP it is used literally in his final book "The Dalkey Archive" where De Selby speaks with Augustine - “far preferable to the Manichaean dualism of light and darkness, good and evil, was Plotinus’s dualism of mind and matter”.

If you look at the book as a whole one thing you might notice when reading it is how the world of the book seems rational and scientific yet somehow tilted or skewed like normality has somehow slipped, pre parish and parish. I felt the normal people in the pre parish world seemed estranged from eachother, suspicious and blind to thier own ugly natures. Similar to the flashback worlds we are presented on the show.

With regards the parish or I consider this the island, we are shown a region that seems to defy the normal rules that govern nature. The parish, like the island seems to bring to light truths and hidden realities that the "normal" world has kept tucked safely in the shadows.

So while the props and literal parts of the book are interesting the overall aspect behind the scenes are even more fascinating and more relevant in my opinion to the shows "underlying theme".

I also brought up the Manichaen aspect in The Third Policeman several months ago on another forum, but it did not generate any interest. I agree that the story itself is not as relevant as where the clues lead us. The thing that really stuck with me is the quote from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar that opens the book.

"Since the affairs of men rest still uncertain,
Let's reason with the worst that may befall".

What I found when I researched this particular quote was most interesting. It is a paper entitled The Manichaen Body in The Third Policeman. It is quite long, but well worth reading at the following: http://www.themodernword.com/SCRIPTorium/obrien_mathewes.pdf

The reason I bring this up now is that I just finished reading Bad Twin and the Manichaen connection is made once again very blatantly in my opinion. The lead character is friends with an older man named Manny Weissman (or perhaps Mani, Wise Man). At the end of book he asks Paul Artisan if he has ever read Confessions of St. Augustine. St. Augustine was an influential leader in Manichaeism until he converted to Christianity and became their adversary.

Also, according to my research, "Mani received a revelation as a youth from a spirit, whom he would later call his Twin, his Syzygos, his Double, his Protective Angel or 'Divine Self'. Manichees believe the human person is a battleground between the good part (or soul) which is composed of light and the bad part (or body) which is composed of dark earth. The soul defines the person and is incorruptible, but it is under the domination of a foreign power. A human is able to be saved from this power (matter) if they come to know who they are and identify themselves with their soul." See http://en.wikipedia.org.wiki/Manichaeism

Another interesting connection is the Manichees preservation of the Acts of Thomas which contains The Hymn of the Pearl. "This poem tells the story of a prince who is sent into Egypt to recover a lost pearl. Once there he falls under the spell of Egyptian magic and forgets who he is, where he has come from, and his destiny. Meanwhile his twin, or double, continues to exist in his home. This double is his true self, his transcendental identity, who sends forth messengers to awaken his memory and recall him to himself." See http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/gnosis/mani.html and http://www.gnosis.org/library/hymnpearl.htm

Bad Twin also contains a reference to pearls, more specifically black pearls. I brought this subject up on a couple of threads, including The Mirror Matter Theory (http://The Mirror Matter Theory) which discusses matter and anti-matter. For the story of the Black Pearl check out the following: www.crystalinks.com/blackpearl.html (http://www.crystalinks.com/blackpearl.html).

What does all of this mean to the story? I am not sure. Are the Losties part of a scientific experiment or are they on some sort of spiritual journey of self-discovery? With so many red herrings and distractions it is difficult to say. I just thought all of these connections were interesting and would provoke more discussion.

I will close with one more quote. This one from St. Augustine, "We may hate evil and want with all our hearts to do good, but what we find is that we not only continue to do evil, but even take delight in doing what we hate. Is it not as though two souls were warring within us?"

chiaroscuro22: The reason I bring this up now is that I just finished reading Bad Twin and the Manichaen connection is made once again very blatantly in my opinion. The lead character is friends with an older man named Manny Weissman (or perhaps Mani, Wise Man). At the end of book he asks Paul Artisan if he has ever read Confessions of St. Augustine. St. Augustine was an influential leader in Manichaeism until he converted to Christianity and became their adversary.

Also, according to my research, "Mani received a revelation as a youth from a spirit, whom he would later call his Twin, his Syzygos, his Double, his Protective Angel or 'Divine Self'. Manichees believe the human person is a battleground between the good part (or soul) which is composed of light and the bad part (or body) which is composed of dark earth. The soul defines the person and is incorruptible, but it is under the domination of a foreign power. A human is able to be saved from this power (matter) if they come to know who they are and identify themselves with their soul."

I'm so glad you posted this. I finished the Bad Twin about a week ago and that connection on the last page hit me like a slap upside the head. Want you to know that I, too, saw it as blatant. At that point I was not even looking for any clues, and had kind of given up on anything as interesting as Manicheism, but POW, right on the kisser, this was unequivalent in my opinion. Not a maybe it's there, maybe it isn't kind of deal.

I also (independently) had noticed Manny's name as wise one or wise man from the beginning of the book, but only at the end when he brought up Augustine's story did I connect Manny/Mani.

Does St. Paul have any connection to all this? (Paul Artisan). Paul is the apostle formerly known as Saul who became Paul upon his sudden conversion, right? In Finnegans Wake, Joyce frequently refers to the Saul/Paul dualtiy to manifest the "bad" and "good" twins Shem and Shaun, respectively. Joyce also refers to Manicheism -- he and Flann O'Brian both, of course it is a topic of interest for lapsed Catholics!

While I doubt we have a Wake scholar on board in the creative team, it's very easy to run across Joyce's use of dualism through perusing Robert Anton Wilson's writing on Joyce. And one of the creative team pointed to RAW when the meaning of 23 came up.

Thanks for the further links, will peruse them later, especially the Pearl.

Lastly, re the Bad Twin, Mani is of course Paul Artisan's mentor, Paul being a young man who decides to quest for more meaning and more SKILL at his profession. Paul I would expect to relate to Paul/Saul or St. Paul.

Artisan points me to mythology: to Daedalus the great artisan who was a protoge of Hephaestos/Vulcan, and also a murderer (like a few Losties). He of course invented the great Labyrinth that housed the Minotaur. Pasiphae who bore the Minotaur was not only the wife of Minos King of Crete but daughter of Helios the Sun God. The Helios Foundation also appears in Bad Twin.

Whether the Helios connects to Pasiphae I don't know, might depend on how much is made of the analogy between the Minotaur and the Lost monster. The Daedalus reference I think is quite likely but then I already connect the word "artisan" to Daedalus ... because I did quite a bit of work on the myth of Daedalus as it relates to Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. To someone else the connection may not appear.

In any case, nice work! I agree it's time to resurrect the Mani theory!

This is possibly the best thread ever. I'm going to show it to those uneducated friends of mine who claim that Lost is trash TV with no value. I read The Third Policeman over the summer and loved it, it's kind of like Beckett if it were less intense and had more of a focus on the comedy and surreal aspects (Beckett tends to think that the funniest thing in the world is someone being kicked in the head, which gets a bit wearing when it's your only antidote to the overbearing misery). I agree that it's more the 'general theory' of TTP rather than specific ideas that relate to the show, although the thought of bunkers deep underground where time is distorted seems to bear particular relevance now that we're seeing Dezzy seemingly time-travelling (predicting the future, waking up as naked as Arnie in Terminator). Perhaps the 'hatch event horizon' kick started some sort of distortion of time for Des and now he's living through life on the island over and over, much like our hero in TTP.

Perhaps the 'hatch event horizon' kick started some sort of distortion of time for Des and now he's living through life on the island over and over, much like our hero in TTP. That could explain why they felt Day Break would be a good replacement for Lost during the haitus. :undecide:

I'm British, so I think I missed the joke. What's Daybreak? Is it an extremely unsatisfying substitute for Lost?

Iescape by dying only when they have reconciled their crime.

- The location of 'Eternity' under the countryside. Is there a Dharma site under the island?.

I read TTP - it was awful, but I got through it. I like the idea of the losties having to reconcile their crimes before they escape. The all do seem to be criminals of one type or another, and it's interesting that the plane left from Australia, which used to be a prison colony for LA, "the city of angels."

Instead of it being directly parallel with a door that lead to eternity, I was thinking more figuratively - that maybe they have entered a door to another dimension.