Okay I just re watched the eppy What Kate did and have a few questions.
I thought the conversation Kate had with her dad Sam was odd when she was asking him why he didn't tell her he wasn't her real father. This is basically how the conversation went.

K: Why did you not tell me Dad
S: because I knew you would Kill him...
S: You were five years old, I wanted to take you but your mom wouldn't let me
K: why didn't you kill him then?
S: Because I don't have murder in my heart

What happened at five that she would want to kill him and why would her dad think she would try to kill him. People get mad and say they want to kill someone but never do it or have it in their blood to do it. Did Kate kill someone before she killed her real father or did she have a bad streak?

This conversation strikes me as odd. Anyone else think so or have any thoughts?

I don't think Sam is saying that at 5 he believed Kate would kill her real father. Rather that it was aged 5 that Sam and Kate's mother separated.

It's very easy for Sam to say that he thought Kate would kill her father, now that she has done. Unfortunately we have so little information about Kate growing up, or what Sam could be referring to that anything we could come up with is possible.

Looking forward to seeing a bit more of this part of Kate's backstory :)

could be that he knew what a scumbag wayne was.and that kate would be the type of person that wouldn't except it. also wayne split up the family and stuff

That a little harsh to say he knew Kate would have killed him. I didn't think Kate would have killed him at 5 but I do think something happened. If you go back and watch the eppy first hand it is really odd. If anyone has a chance watch it and tell me what you think. Somethings there

I think you are on to something it would help to know what the big deal is with her and her childhood I mean on that tape she and her sweetheart made she sounded normal.

There has to be sooo much more in her backstory that they are going to unleash on us.
And I agree, there is a lot that is very weird about that conversation...His line "because I don't have murder in my heart" is so laced with implications.

It struck me as odd on a number of levels.

First, how demented a person do you need to be to ask another person, "why didn't you kill him (for me)?" I mean, I can see asking, "why didn't you help me/Mom get away from him..." or similar, but to ask a human being why he did not kill another human being was just not believable dialogue. Unless Kate is truly demented. But she is just not coming off that way in the show. Kate seems to be sweet, always trying to help, maybe a little messed up, but certainly not dangerous.

Second, what parent would say to his daughter (step-daughter), I knew you had murder in your heart. I mean, who says that to a kid? And if he truly believed that, why did he not get her psychological help? A five year old who has "murder in her heart" needs help, big time serious help, Sam.

Personally, I think this was just badly written dialogue. I don't think the scene as it played out was believable. Now, there may come a point later in the story where we find out Kate is a product of genetic engineering who was bred to have murder in her heart, and then the whole thing might make sense. But as it sits now, no.

I think you are on to something it would help to know what the big deal is with her and her childhood I mean on that tape she and her sweetheart made she sounded normal.

actually i dont think she did sound normal i thought it sounded like she was a depressed lil girl. she said when she turns sixteen they should run off together. then her sweety says "you always wanna run away" and shes says "you know why"

if that sounds normal than, well....normal is wack

Thats a good point, but he was in the Army. All most seems as if she has killed a even before that whole Wayne thing, but he got what he needed!

23F you

SORRY

23F you are right I forgot about her saying that... it was a long night!

i dont think she killed before but i completly agree it was some a weird scene

Maybe the step-dad knows something about the Mom (like maybe she murdered someone)? Or maybe Kate's Mom or real Dad was married before and one or the other killed off the spouse so they could be together?

I find it really hard to believe that he would think that a 5 year old would be capable of murder. It's gotta be related to her real parents in some way.

ahhh thats an idea, in the means murder in your blood-bloodline. cool theory i like it

I thought it made sense since the Mom seemed to be so consumed w/ her Dad...
it's an unhealthy attraction and loyalty bound to be rooted in something tragic

It struck me as odd on a number of levels.

First, how demented a person do you need to be to ask another person, "why didn't you kill him (for me)?" I mean, I can see asking, "why didn't you help me/Mom get away from him..." or similar, but to ask a human being why he did not kill another human being was just not believable dialogue. Unless Kate is truly demented. But she is just not coming off that way in the show. Kate seems to be sweet, always trying to help, maybe a little messed up, but certainly not dangerous.

Second, what parent would say to his daughter (step-daughter), I knew you had murder in your heart. I mean, who says that to a kid? And if he truly believed that, why did he not get her psychological help? A five year old who has "murder in her heart" needs help, big time serious help, Sam.

Personally, I think this was just badly written dialogue. I don't think the scene as it played out was believable. Now, there may come a point later in the story where we find out Kate is a product of genetic engineering who was bred to have murder in her heart, and then the whole thing might make sense. But as it sits now, no.


Yeah, the fact that they want this series to last a couple more years, which would most likely mean Kate has several more flashbacks being the leading lady......I think this conversation probably hints to more problems in her back story.

I like the whole blood line idea that makes alot of sense to me.

It struck me as odd on a number of levels.

First, how demented a person do you need to be to ask another person, "why didn't you kill him (for me)?" I mean, I can see asking, "why didn't you help me/Mom get away from him..." or similar, but to ask a human being why he did not kill another human being was just not believable dialogue. Unless Kate is truly demented. But she is just not coming off that way in the show. Kate seems to be sweet, always trying to help, maybe a little messed up, but certainly not dangerous.

Second, what parent would say to his daughter (step-daughter), I knew you had murder in your heart. I mean, who says that to a kid? And if he truly believed that, why did he not get her psychological help? A five year old who has "murder in her heart" needs help, big time serious help, Sam.

Personally, I think this was just badly written dialogue. I don't think the scene as it played out was believable. Now, there may come a point later in the story where we find out Kate is a product of genetic engineering who was bred to have murder in her heart, and then the whole thing might make sense. But as it sits now, no.

Like you, I had a gigantic problem with that scene. I understood that the situation was tense with Kate being the run, Feds looking for her and all, but the question and the response just threw me. It seemed...even under the circumstances...bizarre.

I know that Kate's character is supposed to be shrouded by all this mystery, but so far...she seems more like a complete whack job, than a woman of mystery and intrigue. :crazy:

You might like to read "Juice, the theory" http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=15069&page=29 this is the page we started discussing WKD but there's a bunch of great infomation and speculation on the thread.

That is a great point. The Transmission's Ryan and Jen cited that it was most certainly very awkward for a father to say something like Sam did to his daughter. There's obviously more pieces to the puzzle.

It struck me as odd on a number of levels.

First, how demented a person do you need to be to ask another person, "why didn't you kill him (for me)?" I mean, I can see asking, "why didn't you help me/Mom get away from him..." or similar, but to ask a human being why he did not kill another human being was just not believable dialogue. Unless Kate is truly demented. But she is just not coming off that way in the show. Kate seems to be sweet, always trying to help, maybe a little messed up, but certainly not dangerous.

Second, what parent would say to his daughter (step-daughter), I knew you had murder in your heart. I mean, who says that to a kid? And if he truly believed that, why did he not get her psychological help? A five year old who has "murder in her heart" needs help, big time serious help, Sam.

Personally, I think this was just badly written dialogue. I don't think the scene as it played out was believable. Now, there may come a point later in the story where we find out Kate is a product of genetic engineering who was bred to have murder in her heart, and then the whole thing might make sense. But as it sits now, no.How boring would this show be if they didn't give us dialogue like this to discuss? It may be strange but I don't think it is badly written.

We still lack information. There's so much unknown. Could Wayne have been married before Diane? Could Wayne be Tom's dad? That would pretty much blow up someone's world. If you were in love with someone and wanting to get married and you find out that you've both got the same father. Sick of your parents not to tell you.

hey guys, i'm sorry this is really off topic, but what sort of DVD player program should i get for my laptop so i can go frame by frame with the LOST dvds and make screen caps? like i want to be able to click a button and see the next frame, and when i'm done with that frame i click the same button and get the very next frame, etc. maybe even a zoom button. but that's optional. i just want the frame-by-frame

preferrably a free one i can get online

Maybe the step-dad knows something about the Mom (like maybe she murdered someone)? Or maybe Kate's Mom or real Dad was married before and one or the other killed off the spouse so they could be together?

I like the way your mind works Jersey! This is a great theory! I think when we saw her mom the first time screaming (in the hospital) when she saw Kate was odd or maybe Kate just did something really bad for her own mother to be scared of her. But then when we saw her mom at the dinner, I find her mother even more strange. She seemed like she wasnt all there in the head. MAybe it is just me though

I like the bloodline idea...personally, I see it as possible, I suppose, that Kate would kill Wayne for abusing her mom, but I see it as more plausible that he did something/s REALLY bad in the past, maybe killed someone, and that's part of the reason she killed him, so Kate's dad saying "you have murder in your heart" is because Wayne is a killer and she has some of his genes. I mean, knowing one's biological father is a killer would probably make me a bit mental too and it became almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy for Kate

I think it's more simpler than we are trying to make it. Kates mom wanted to be with Wayne and put up with Waynes drunkeness and what ever else he did. Sam didn't want Kate around that, and at age 5 tried to get custody of Kate. For some reason he didn't get it. He wanted Wayne dead for what he did to Kate and her mom. Sam knew that Kate would eventually not put up with it, and would do something about it to protect her mom. But now, her mom turned on her for it. Poor Kate.

I think it's more simpler than we are trying to make it. Kates mom wanted to be with Wayne and put up with Waynes drunkeness and what ever else he did. Sam didn't want Kate around that, and at age 5 tried to get custody of Kate. For some reason he didn't get it. He wanted Wayne dead for what he did to Kate and her mom. Sam knew that Kate would eventually not put up with it, and would do something about it to protect her mom. But now, her mom turned on her for it. Poor Kate.Nothing is simple on this show. :biggrin:

Sam looks to be remarried, he has a wedding ring on. If Sam wanted Kate so badly, why didn't he have her come live with him when she was 16? Especially if he knew Wayne was an abuser. Wayne may have been Kate's biological father but if Sam's name was on Kate's birth certificate he would have rights.

Nothing is simple, there's a very complicated story here.

It's only as complicated as people want to make it. Sam remarried, yes. He didn't push to have Kate with him cuz he knew Kate "had murder in her heart". He wanted Wayne gone. He knew Kate would be the one to do it... eventually. Definately can't wait to see more of this back story.

There is nothing to suggest that Kate wasn't with Sam later on in her teens.(Unless I've missed it.)

She almost definitly wasn't staying at home, if you remember when Wayne arrived he asks Kate what she's doing there.

There is nothing to suggest that Kate wasn't with Sam later on in her teens.(Unless I've missed it.)

She almost definitly wasn't staying at home, if you remember when Wayne arrived he asks Kate what she's doing there.

She was in Iowa when she made the tape with Tom. She may have visited Sam when she was younger but when Kate is talking to Sam it doesn't sound like she was with him during very important years. When Kate goes to the diner her mom isn't suprised to see her. I think Kate still lived in Iowa, she just stayed away from Wayne and that's why he's surprised to see her. He knows why she doesn't come around him.

"Ain't you gonna take my pants off?" This line bothers me. It's more than a sexual advance line, it's like Kate has done it in the past. Which leads to so many more disturbing questions.

I took it as though he had forced her to do it before, but I can admit that my assumption could be pure optimism for the person I (hope) think Kate is......

i think he has hit on her before and he has rebuttled his advances, however " the drink" can really change people. I would assume he doesnt know she is his child. mama didnt tell him.
Sam's comment is based on what she did, or he was told she did. I dont think she killed wayne, i think she left him with the means to do it, maybe unknowing.
he may have been a smoker!
Kate loved her mother, and she knew that she would never leave him. Kate knew that no matter how far she traveled or ignored the issues, he would always be there, in the middle of the night he would wake her with worry. she would never be rid of him. Was it a rash movement, no, i think she planned it very carefully. I believe she felt her mother would have been greatful for what she did, but we know better.

Wayne may have been Kate's biological father but if Sam's name was on Kate's birth certificate he would have rights.

Nothing is simple, there's a very complicated story here.

Thats interesting I wonder who is on it. Does anyone know if that is binding or if a blood test would cancel the fathe on a birth certificate?

I think it's more simpler than we are trying to make it. Kates mom wanted to be with Wayne and put up with Waynes drunkeness and what ever else he did. Sam didn't want Kate around that, and at age 5 tried to get custody of Kate. For some reason he didn't get it.

He didn't get it because he was not Kates real father and Kates mother probaly told him she would tell the truth and then he would have no parental right at all.

He wanted Wayne dead for what he did to Kate and her mom. Sam knew that Kate would eventually not put up with it, and would do something about it to protect her mom.

Thats a big assumption to say he knew then at five that Kate would eventually try to kill Wayne

He didn't push to have Kate with him cuz he knew Kate "had murder in her heart". He wanted Wayne gone. He knew Kate would be the one to do it... eventually.

Sorry I was a little confused on this one. Are you saying that you think Sam didn't take Kate because he knew that she would kill Wayne and this is what Sam wanted? Or did you mean something else

Good point Sam, overlooked the tape....

the whole "pants" thing could have been this simple:

Wayne came home drunk while Kate was living at home and mom was working.

he passed out. kate, being the good daughter, decides to put wayne into bed
so that mom won't have to deal with it later.

she goes ahead and takes off his shoes, then his pants, since people are
usually in bed pants-less. wayne then taunts her with it for the rest of his life.

HOWEVER- I think he was very sexually suggestive toward her throughout
her teens. I also think he beat her mom throughout her childhood.

I could understand THESE being her reasons to kill him, but the whole "because
he was my dad" thing throws me.

I guess it COULD be that she knows he did something so bad that she can't
stand to be related to him... like if you found out Ted Bundy was your real dad.

ew!

Sorry I was a little confused on this one. Are you saying that you think Sam didn't take Kate because he knew that she would kill Wayne and this is what Sam wanted? Or did you mean something else
For some reason, Sam was not able to take Kate with him at age 5. Why age 5 was mentioned, not sure? Maybe a custody battle then. Obviously, Kates mom got the custody for reasons we may not know now. Sam "knew" Kate. He said he knew she had murder in her heart. This may mean her genetic back groud, which would throw more into this, or just her personality. Very independent, not put up with crap. I speculate that Sam wanted Wayne out. I'm theorizing that was why he wanted to take her away at age 5.
I could understand THESE being her reasons to kill him, but the whole "because
he was my dad" thing throws me.

I guess it COULD be that she knows he did something so bad that she can't
stand to be related to him... like if you found out Ted Bundy was your real dad.

ew!


And also to protect her mom? She was out of the house at this time, so it apeared. Maybe she didn't want her mom to have to deal with it, but knew her mom wouldn't leave him. Maybe she also thought Wayne would harm or even kill her mom.

Maybe she also thought Wayne would harm or even kill her mom.What if we take this a step further. What if, Kate knew that Wayne would kill Diane. What if Kate had premonitions before that came true. What do you do? Who would believe you? How do you prevent it?

actually i dont think she did sound normal i thought it sounded like she was a depressed lil girl. she said when she turns sixteen they should run off together. then her sweety says "you always wanna run away" and shes says "you know why"

if that sounds normal than, well....normal is wack

I never put the two together, I actually forgot she told her friend that. You have to keep so much information in your head to catch everything on this show.

It struck me as odd on a number of levels.

First, how demented a person do you need to be to ask another person, "why didn't you kill him (for me)?" I mean, I can see asking, "why didn't you help me/Mom get away from him..." or similar, but to ask a human being why he did not kill another human being was just not believable dialogue. Unless Kate is truly demented. But she is just not coming off that way in the show. Kate seems to be sweet, always trying to help, maybe a little messed up, but certainly not dangerous.

Second, what parent would say to his daughter (step-daughter), I knew you had murder in your heart. I mean, who says that to a kid? And if he truly believed that, why did he not get her psychological help? A five year old who has "murder in her heart" needs help, big time serious help, Sam.

Personally, I think this was just badly written dialogue. I don't think the scene as it played out was believable. Now, there may come a point later in the story where we find out Kate is a product of genetic engineering who was bred to have murder in her heart, and then the whole thing might make sense. But as it sits now, no.


It is possible that Kate knew that her reason for murdering Wayne wasn't justifiable? And it is possible that there is more to Kate and Wayne's relationship than what meets the eye?

I have a theory!

I don't post often, but I read extensively. I believe that Kate said, "He never touched me." Well, just because he never touched her does not mean that nothing happened between them. Perhaps he kept himself free of "rape" by making HER touch HIM.

Can't you see it now? "Touch me, Kate, or I'll do to your mother what I did to the convenience store clerk in Tallahassee. You know I can, so you better just give me what I want if you want her to live."

This, I think would cause tremendous hatred on Kate's part, but would leave her mother not understanding all of the motivations. Perhaps her mother is unsympathetic because she doesn't know everything that went on between them.

A guy like that who would threaten a girl with her mother's safety in return for incestuous fondling . . . yeah, I think I'd blow him up, too. That would make Kate seem a little less nutty and a lot more sympathetic. It also makes Wayne a dangerous man, a man that Sam thinks could father a child with murder in her heart.

Just a possiblity. If it turns out not to be true, I just might construct a story around that. *shudders* Oooo, the EVIL!

Lynda

I have a theory!

I don't post often, but I read extensively. I believe that Kate said, "He never touched me." Well, just because he never touched her does not mean that nothing happened between them. Perhaps he kept himself free of "rape" by making HER touch HIM.

Can't you see it now? "Touch me, Kate, or I'll do to your mother what I did to the convenience store clerk in Tallahassee. You know I can, so you better just give me what I want if you want her to live."

This, I think would cause tremendous hatred on Kate's part, but would leave her mother not understanding all of the motivations. Perhaps her mother is unsympathetic because she doesn't know everything that went on between them.

A guy like that who would threaten a girl with her mother's safety in return for incestuous fondling . . . yeah, I think I'd blow him up, too. That would make Kate seem a little less nutty and a lot more sympathetic. It also makes Wayne a dangerous man, a man that Sam thinks could father a child with murder in her heart.

Just a possiblity. If it turns out not to be true, I just might construct a story around that. *shudders* Oooo, the EVIL!

Lynda
This is perhaps the most comprehensive theory I have run across yet. I can understand your reasoning and can say that is makes much sense to me. Maybe her Dad is a killer and abuser. I wonder why the step-dad wouldnt step in if he thought that was the case. Maybe he just had a really strong suspision about Dad but couldnt prove anything. Having the suspision of child abuse would possibly prompt the statement regarding Kate killing step-dad if she knew he was her blood. Too much to imagine your REAL Dad could do those things. Her step-Dad said he didnt have murder in his heart. He didnt say he couldn't fight back in battle. Thus his inability to kill the Dad even though he had been in the army.

Why does everyone want to assume that Wayne had sexually molested or tried to molest Kate?

Do you all want Kate's murder of him to be justified in your eyes?

Why not simply accept the fact that you don't know?

ahhh thats an idea, in the means murder in your blood-bloodline. cool theory i like it
I think it is interesting that so many of the Losties have killed someone directly or indirectly. Many of these incidents for good moral reasons.
Jack- Chose to save his (future at the time) wife over (possibly Shannon's Dad) the other patient. Not sure if he hastened Marshall's death after Sawyer shot him
chose Boone over Joanna when he rescued Boone from the rip current in "White Rabbit"
Boone- May have pushed/caused his nanny Teresa to fall down the stairs.
Sawyer- Killed the con-man in Texas. Also, shot the Marshall in the chest in "Tabula Rasa"
Kate- Killed Wayne,
Sayid- admits to torturing but hasn't mentioned killing men in the war
Ana Lucia- Jason (who murdered her unborn child) Goodwin, & Shannon
Eko- killed 3 Others
Jin- Worked for Sun's father he may have been an assassin but so far we only saw him intervene to spare someone from death.
Locke- Didn't/couldn't save Boone.
Goodwin- (not on the plane) killed Nathen.

Can anyone think of any other characters who killed or were involvled in someelses death?

edited italics per Spooky's Translation
http://www.lost-tv.com/transcripts/Tabula_Rasa_Lost.htm
http://www.lost-tv.com/transcripts/White_Rabbit_Lost.htm

Fish 1941,

I don't know that we particularly *want* her to be molested, but we're trying to think of logical reasons why she would put so much at stake. It is true that we don't know, but I believe speculation is one of the driving forces behind this show and this forum.

That being said, I have no particular stake in what her reasoning is -- but I must insist that there be a reason and that it be logical. I accept that there are other possiblities, and I am open to them. Perhaps you have a couple of suggestions as to alternate motivations?

I think the sexual molestation thing works because it makes a lot of sense. It is the most obvious answer -- which means it is probably wrong, considering this show. Other possiblities:

He was abusive towards her mother.
He abandoned them and she resents that.
He chased ther prefered father away.
He spent all their money and did not work, just went out and drank.

These are pretty bad things, but I don't know that they would make her kill and ruin her life like that. She KNEW the trouble coming her way far in advance as evidenced by the insurance policy and seeing her mom one last time. Considering the high stakes of her action, I am not sure that any other scenario matches her actions.

That's why I still say that he molested her in a way that made her seem like the aggressor and threatened her mother. Why now? Why kill him now? Because she found out that this was her real father. Not only was the man evil enough to make her a willing accomplice in her own sexual abuse AND threaten to kill her mother AND be a known killer, but he was half of her.

I don't know that anything else is enough motivation for premeditated murder -- and fits all of the info we have. However, I'd like to hear other scenarios.

Has it ever occurred to you that there might be another logical reason why Kate would kill Wayne . . . other than the fact that he "might" have molested her? Because I can think of one or two.

Has it ever occurred to you that there might be another logical reason why Kate would kill Wayne . . . other than the fact that he "might" have molested her? Because I can think of one or two.

lamerock seems to have a pretty good theory there...but if you have one or two others...please share them with the rest of the class.

What about the fact that although Wayne was her father, and clearly Kate's mother had a relationship with him (hence Kate!), Sam and Kate's mother were not divorced until she was five - was Wayne perhaps incarcerated for some of this time? Is that why they did not marry until later? If he was incarcerated for some crime, is this crime the reason Kate hated him? (Can't have been that bad - manslaughter would be longer in most cases I think!)

OK I have been thinking about it again, I like Sam G's question : Could Wayne be Tom's dad? If he was, that could end a very short lived marriage to a man Kate loved and make her pretty mad...

That's an intersting idea. It would seem he was out of the picture for awhile, at least while Kate's mom was military-dad. And I don't think it would be much of a stretch to say a guy like Wayne has spent at least a little time in jail. Perhaps for DWI? Maybe he was involved in a vehicular manslaughter case.
Maybe we are all jonesing for a new espisode bad!

Oops, my above post was to your first idea, but the second one fits in with more of the info we have. Now I like this one. Except, eww.

That would work for me...if she hadn't kissed him when they went & dug up the can w/ the airplane. At this point...she would have known he was her brother....eewwwwwwww...

hehehe....allofthethings....we eeewww'd at the same time....double eeewwww

I firmly believe that Kate must have had a good reason. She does not seem like the psychopathic killer type. She seems to be level headed, thoughtful, stubborn. She seems the type who believes in justice and righting wrongs . . . regardless of the cost. I believe that she has a very strong sense of justice and an any means necessary approach to enforcing it.

Wouldn't it be ironic if "he never touched her" but hurt her anyway, and "she never touched him" but managed to kill him anyway?

Put yourself in her shoes. What would cause her to feel strongly enough that this man has to *die*? It is not enough that she leave and never see him again. It is not enough that she moves out. Why did Kate feel he had to die? Was she psychotically over-reacting to something or did he do something so terrible that this was her only available outlet?

As for Tom, not sure where he fits in to all of this, but she did throw away her life with him, too. Wayne took that away from her by pushing her to kill him. What did he do?

Just one of the many questions this show has to offer. :)

Lynda

I just bought the episode 1 dvd collection. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Kate say something about killing someone she loved when jack gives her the airplane toy she had in the case with the guns in season 1?

That would work for me...if she hadn't kissed him when they went & dug up the can w/ the airplane. At this point...she would have known he was her brother....eewwwwwwww...

hehehe....allofthethings....we eeewww'd at the same time....double eeewwwwYes, that would be logical but my speculation is that they fell in love before Kate knew that Wayne was her father, you can't turn LOVE off just because the circumstances beyond your control now make it taboo.

After Kate kissed Tom, she did say sorry.

Fish 1941,

I don't know that we particularly *want* her to be molested, but we're trying to think of logical reasons why she would put so much at stake. It is true that we don't know, but I believe speculation is one of the driving forces behind this show and this forum.

That being said, I have no particular stake in what her reasoning is -- but I must insist that there be a reason and that it be logical. I accept that there are other possiblities, and I am open to them. Perhaps you have a couple of suggestions as to alternate motivations?

I think the sexual molestation thing works because it makes a lot of sense. It is the most obvious answer -- which means it is probably wrong, considering this show. Other possiblities:

He was abusive towards her mother.
He abandoned them and she resents that.
He chased ther prefered father away.
He spent all their money and did not work, just went out and drank.

These are pretty bad things, but I don't know that they would make her kill and ruin her life like that. She KNEW the trouble coming her way far in advance as evidenced by the insurance policy and seeing her mom one last time. Considering the high stakes of her action, I am not sure that any other scenario matches her actions.

That's why I still say that he molested her in a way that made her seem like the aggressor and threatened her mother. Why now? Why kill him now? Because she found out that this was her real father. Not only was the man evil enough to make her a willing accomplice in her own sexual abuse AND threaten to kill her mother AND be a known killer, but he was half of her.

I don't know that anything else is enough motivation for premeditated murder -- and fits all of the info we have. However, I'd like to hear other scenarios.

From what we've seen of Wayne:
He was drunk, he was driving.
From what Kate and Diane say, Wayne has abused Diane.
As far as we know Wayne has never threatened to kill Diane, her wrist is bruised, like Kate's arm would be bruised the next day from the way Wayne grabbed her and she pulled away.
He didn't act the way you would hope a father would act.
He told Kate she was beautiful.
Sexual spin on "Ain't you gonna take my pants off?"

There is nothing that points to Wayne abandoning them, that he spent all their money or he was in jail, as far as I remember.

Sam was in the military. He said he wanted to take Kate when she was 5. That may be when they decided to break up, that things were never going to work. Sam may have been reassigned to another post and Diane decided she wasn't going.

Wayne has an interesting belt buckle on, we did some looking and it resembles the kind they give as prizes in rodeos. There we would have a horse connection.

I firmly believe that Kate must have had a good reason. She does not seem like the psychopathic killer type. She seems to be level headed, thoughtful, stubborn. She seems the type who believes in justice and righting wrongs . . . regardless of the cost. I believe that she has a very strong sense of justice and an any means necessary approach to enforcing it.

Wouldn't it be ironic if "he never touched her" but hurt her anyway, and "she never touched him" but managed to kill him anyway?

Put yourself in her shoes. What would cause her to feel strongly enough that this man has to *die*? It is not enough that she leave and never see him again. It is not enough that she moves out. Why did Kate feel he had to die? Was she psychotically over-reacting to something or did he do something so terrible that this was her only available outlet?

As for Tom, not sure where he fits in to all of this, but she did throw away her life with him, too. Wayne took that away from her by pushing her to kill him. What did he do?

Just one of the many questions this show has to offer. :)

Lynda



Hi Gang :)

I just rewatched the entire first season...and so of course have noticed certain things. This show is crazy, in that, the more you watch, the more you see.

First, I hate to say this... but I think Kate was indeed molested. When she and Tom dig up the tape and he tells her, " You always want to run away". She replies, "Yeah, and you know why." That spoke volumes. As to when the Marshall asks her about Wayne "maybe knocking on her door at night" you can see a look of pain and anger when she denies it. I mean--would you admit something like that to a jerk like the Marshall? I also sort of suspected that Tom may have married Kate to (at the very least) get her away from her home situation. Remember she mentions in another episode (she and Sawyer are playing " I never") being married, " but it didn't last long".

What say my fellow Losties to these thoughts and ponderings?


JANUARY 11th...WHERE ARE THOU?!

I have a theory!

I don't post often, but I read extensively. I believe that Kate said, "He never touched me." Well, just because he never touched her does not mean that nothing happened between them. Perhaps he kept himself free of "rape" by making HER touch HIM.

Can't you see it now? "Touch me, Kate, or I'll do to your mother what I did to the convenience store clerk in Tallahassee. You know I can, so you better just give me what I want if you want her to live."

This, I think would cause tremendous hatred on Kate's part, but would leave her mother not understanding all of the motivations. Perhaps her mother is unsympathetic because she doesn't know everything that went on between them.

A guy like that who would threaten a girl with her mother's safety in return for incestuous fondling . . . yeah, I think I'd blow him up, too. That would make Kate seem a little less nutty and a lot more sympathetic. It also makes Wayne a dangerous man, a man that Sam thinks could father a child with murder in her heart.

Just a possiblity. If it turns out not to be true, I just might construct a story around that. *shudders* Oooo, the EVIL!

Lynda


This makes total sense to me. I also got a sick feeling when Kate and Locke are in the hatch and confronted by Desmond. When Locke (tricking Desmond) ties her up and walks her to the pantry. She has a real look of horror on her face. I wouldn't be surprised if that was connected to her childhood too.

I never put the two together, I actually forgot she told her friend that. You have to keep so much information in your head to catch everything on this show.


YES!! THANK YOU!! Someone else remembers that! Did you also notice nothing else was said after that on the tape?

Before that's brought up Tom says they will be married with 6 kids,etc. Kate tells him no way..but what if he really DID marry her just to (at the very least in their youth) get her out of that house?

I just bought the episode 1 dvd collection. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Kate say something about killing someone she loved when jack gives her the airplane toy she had in the case with the guns in season 1?

She tells Jack that the airplane belonged to the man she killed. She is referring to Tom, her childhood sweetheart...who got killed in the car chase. She feels responsible for his death.

Hi Gang :)

I just rewatched the entire first season...and so of course have noticed certain things. This show is crazy, in that, the more you watch, the more you see.

First, I hate to say this... but I think Kate was indeed molested. When she and Tom dig up the tape and he tells her, " You always want to run away". She replies, "Yeah, and you know why." That spoke volumes. As to when the Marshall asks her about Wayne "maybe knocking on her door at night" you can see a look of pain and anger when she denies it. I mean--would you admit something like that to a jerk like the Marshall? I also sort of suspected that Tom may have married Kate to (at the very least) get her away from her home situation. Remember she mentions in another episode (she and Sawyer are playing " I never") being married, " but it didn't last long".

What say my fellow Losties to these thoughts and ponderings?


JANUARY 11th...WHERE ARE THOU?!


Again, why do you ONLY assume that Kate had been molested? Has anyone ever considered that Kate and Wayne had another kind of relationship? Or do you simply do not want to consider it? Is it important that Kate be justified in murdering Wayne?

I'm not saying that Wayne did not molest her. But I'm not saying that he did. I refuse to make assumptions, based on the fact that I might like the character.

And I will ask this again - why would Kate be attracted to a man who reminds her of the father (or stepfather) who molested her?

What about the fact that although Wayne was her father, and clearly Kate's mother had a relationship with him (hence Kate!), Sam and Kate's mother were not divorced until she was five - was Wayne perhaps incarcerated for some of this time? Is that why they did not marry until later? If he was incarcerated for some crime, is this crime the reason Kate hated him? (Can't have been that bad - manslaughter would be longer in most cases I think!)

Why do you assume that Wayne had served time in jail? Because he was drunk on the night that Kate had killed him? Or that he had been rough with Diane?

When you think about it, we really don't know much about Wayne. Yet, everyone is making assumptions about him. Now, fans are claiming that they are merely making speculations. But the problem is that their speculations read more like assumptions. They seem certain that Wayne was a drunk, a molester and all-around bad guy. We don't even know how long Wayne had been drinking heavily or abusing Diane. We don't even know if he had ever abused Kate. But because Kate is such a big favorite and from the small view we had of Wayne in this recent episode, fans have been making some major assumptions of what really went on in the Austen/Jensen household.

Is it so hard to accept that we simply don't know?

As long as we are speculating about things that make us say "ewwww," I suppose we pught to consider that the person kate was married to, briefly, was WAYNE. We don't know when he came back into Diana's life. He fathered Kate while she was still married to Sam, perhaps went away, came back, hooked up with Kate (who had no idea who he was) and THEN got involved with Diana again? It's far-fetched, but certainly would add to her motivation to kill him!

I know, I know: eeeewwwwwww!

Wayne was around when Kate was 5, as evident in when military dad left. I think she would remember him enough not to "hook up" with him in the near future.

I think Fish 1941 might be related to Wayne...:huh:

Wayne was around when Kate was 5, as evident in when military dad left. I think she would remember him enough not to "hook up" with him in the near future.

I think Fish 1941 might be related to Wayne...:huh:


Is this supposed to be an insult?

You guys don't really know much about Wayne. You don't know much about Kate's past with Wayne. Instead, you make assumptions. And when I suggest that there may be more to Kate's history with Wayne other than sexual abuse, I get insulted. :ohwell:


As long as we are speculating about things that make us say "ewwww," I suppose we pught to consider that the person kate was married to, briefly, was WAYNE. We don't know when he came back into Diana's life. He fathered Kate while she was still married to Sam, perhaps went away, came back, hooked up with Kate (who had no idea who he was) and THEN got involved with Diana again? It's far-fetched, but certainly would add to her motivation to kill him!

I know, I know: eeeewwwwwww!

So, you're telling me that you know for a fact that Wayne had hooked up with Kate? Where did you get the information from?

You speculation reads like an assumption.

Is this supposed to be an insult?

You guys don't really know much about Wayne. You don't know much about Kate's past with Wayne. Instead, you make assumptions. And when I suggest that there may be more to Kate's history with Wayne other than sexual abuse, I get insulted. :ohwell:



So, you're telling me that you know for a fact that Wayne had hooked up with Kate? Where did you get the information from?

You speculation reads like an assumption.

Did you READ the quote before you quoted it? The poster starts w/ since we are SPECULATING........asks us to CONSIDER this possiblity...and w/ the IT MAY BE FAR-FETCHED. No one is making statement as though it is fact. I think you are the only one reading the specualtion as posters making statement as though they are facts & not speculation. I am still wondering what your other theories are.

Hi, all,

I'm wondering at Fish's other theories, too. I'm totally open to them. In fact, I don't care much for Kate. Her storyline is okay, but I'm not looking for her to hook up with anyone. My favorite character is Locke -- check avatar! -- and I think I like him so much because I have no idea what he's about!

Anyway, Fish, you did bring up a good point . . . why is she attracted to a man who reminds her of the man who molested her?

There are a number of possibilities, I think -- if you will forgive my speculation that I in no way intend to be an etched in stone assumption. Without getting into a whole Oedipus complex discussion, it is highly possible that the abuse is the very reason she is attracted to Sawyer. (Alright, everyone can now turn their heads and throw up!) I don't really like that idea, but I'm open to that possibility.

Another reason she may be attracted to Sawyer and Wayne still sexually abused her is that Sawyer is NOT Wayne. He could be like Wayne. In fact, many of us might have thought he was like Wayne at first. This is where blind assumptions of character lead us. I'm sensitive to that fact. Actually, from recent behavior, Sawyer is not like Wayne and Kate may be coming to realize this. In fact, by loving Sawyer, she could be seeking redemption in herself towards the man who hurt her and she could not understand. That fits the island . . . but of course, I don't know. It just seems like a good fit.

If Wayne was not abusive, then why does she have any problem at all with a man who reminds her of him? If she only has warm and fuzzies for the man she blew up, then whence the conflict? She hated him. I think we can assume that. Why else do you commit premeditated murder? I believe that her difficulties with Sawyer are actually more evidence for the molestation theory. She cannot imagine him touching her because it feels too similar . . . and yet Sawyer is not Wayne. Maybe she doesn't have to blow Sawyer up. Maybe she can be attracted to him.

I'm just trying to put myself in the character's shoes and reason it from her angle. I have no idea if it is the truth -- any more than I know what any given person in my life is thinking at any given moment.

That being said, I'm cool with not knowing things. It makes it interesting. I love coming to this board, my ideas carried with me, and then changing and enhancing those ideas from the dialogue I read. It enhances my viewing of the show.

Last question: if Wayne did not molest her, then what was her reason for killing him? Boredom, money, the opportunity to travel, frequent flier miles? ;) Perhaps she's a serial killer with a chip on her shoulder against men . . . ooops, back to the molester thing, sorry! :D

Have a nice night/ day, all!

Lynda

In the news these days there are all sorts of strange attractions making the headlines. Women who should know better, having relationships with boys that are underage, they are willing to go to jail and serve time and come out and marry that boy and have his children.

I like Kate but..... I'm open to all the twisted angles the writer's may employ. I understand Fish's speculation.

I'm trying to make up a scenario where Kate is a willing participant with Wayne, until she finds out about her parentage. The problem is with what Sam says:

Sam Austen: I didn't tell you because I knew you'd kill him. And your mother loved him. You were 5 years old. I wanted to take you along with me. She wouldn't let me.

To me that means, any point in time, if Sam told her, she would want to kill Wayne. It had to be more than Wayne taking Sam's place because Wayne did that and Kate didn't kill him. What would be so vile about Wayne being Kate's biological father that she would want to kill him for that fact? All I can think of is that he is also the father of the man she loved, making it impossible for her to ever be with him.

Clearly Kate had a relationship with Tom for quite awhile. They were young teenagers in 1989 and it seems like they had been friends for awhile, maybe their whole lives.

But those tricky writers....maybe they will drop some more clues.

Is this supposed to be an insult?

You guys don't really know much about Wayne. You don't know much about Kate's past with Wayne. Instead, you make assumptions. And when I suggest that there may be more to Kate's history with Wayne other than sexual abuse, I get insulted. :ohwell:



So, you're telling me that you know for a fact that Wayne had hooked up with Kate? Where did you get the information from?

You speculation reads like an assumption.


DUDE He asked his DAUGHTER to TAKE HIS PANTS OFF AND WAS PRACTICALLY DROOLING ON HER.

In the news these days there are all sorts of strange attractions making the headlines. Women who should know better, having relationships with boys that are underage, they are willing to go to jail and serve time and come out and marry that boy and have his children.

I like Kate but..... I'm open to all the twisted angles the writer's may employ. I understand Fish's speculation.

I'm trying to make up a scenario where Kate is a willing participant with Wayne, until she finds out about her parentage. The problem is with what Sam says:

Sam Austen: I didn't tell you because I knew you'd kill him. And your mother loved him. You were 5 years old. I wanted to take you along with me. She wouldn't let me.

To me that means, any point in time, if Sam told her, she would want to kill Wayne. It had to be more than Wayne taking Sam's place because Wayne did that and Kate didn't kill him. What would be so vile about Wayne being Kate's biological father that she would want to kill him for that fact? All I can think of is that he is also the father of the man she loved, making it impossible for her to ever be with him.

Clearly Kate had a relationship with Tom for quite awhile. They were young teenagers in 1989 and it seems like they had been friends for awhile, maybe their whole lives.

But those tricky writers....maybe they will drop some more clues.




That is possible in regards to Tom ( it just occured to me that the writers probably read these and laugh at us LOL). Another possiblity is that he was abusive to Kate (even as a 5 year old) and her mother ignored it. That kind of sick stuff is in the headlines all the time.

DUDE He asked his DAUGHTER to TAKE HIS PANTS OFF AND WAS PRACTICALLY DROOLING ON HER.We have gone down some sick pathways. Would that line change, if Wayne and Kate, at one time, had a consenting relationship prior to Kate finding out that Wayne was her biological father? If Wayne was still ignorant of the fact about his fatherhood and Diane had no idea what had been going on or ignored it?

Then it's just icky because Wayne is her stepfather (anyone say Woody Allen)

It's sick, it's twisted, but I bet somewhere in the world it's happened.

Yuck, pooie........ok I said it, now I can forget going down that path.......Yuck, yuck ,yuck, yuck, yuck

I need to at least ponder the possibility but I don't see the pieces fitting together yet.

now that is an angle I had not thought of. that the man she loved was her half brother.
but who sent the letter? A grandmother, a sister, or a friend. the hand writing in the letter had female quality.

i think kate did have a "relationship" with dear ol' dad. unknowenly of corse

now that is an angle I had not thought of. that the man she loved was her half brother.
but who sent the letter? A grandmother, a sister, or a friend. the hand writing in the letter had female quality.http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=15069 come and read Juice, the theory.

Kate mentioned a friend Beth. We've speculated she might be Tom's sister also.

I think you are on to something it would help to know what the big deal is with her and her childhood I mean on that tape she and her sweetheart made she sounded normal.

I'll have to rewatch to get the exact quotes, but there was something on the tape that didn't strike me as "normal" though. She says something along the lines of "you know why" when Tom mentions something about her always wanting to leave (not sure what his exact comment was). So, I think there is something in her childhood that was not good. Maybe Tom is the only one who knows about it, maybe not.

ETA:

Reading through some of the other replies in this thread made me think of something I had once had a theory on. What if Kate was in foster care at some point (seems to fit in with all the other adoption/foster stuff. it seems likely that even sawyer was in foster care at some point)? Tom could have been a foster brother...
Also, why did she call her mom by her first name when speaking with Tom. I think it was Diane. She said "Diane is dying" when she first met with Tom. She called her "mom" later when seeing her in the MRI room, but why didn't she call her "mom" when speaking with Tom? That has bugged me for awhile.

I'll have to rewatch to get the exact quotes, but there was something on the tape that didn't strike me as "normal" though. She says something along the lines of "you know why" when Tom mentions something about her always wanting to leave (not sure what his exact comment was). So, I think there is something in her childhood that was not good. Maybe Tom is the only one who knows about it, maybe not.

I agree that the tape sounds pretty normal, even the "And you know why." If Tom thought Kate was being sexually abused, even as a teenager, he probably wouldn't have joked about "You always want to run away." If you haven't read "Juice, the theory" it goes pretty deep into what may or maynot have happened to Kate.

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=15069

ETA:

Reading through some of the other replies in this thread made me think of something I had once had a theory on. What if Kate was in foster care at some point (seems to fit in with all the other adoption/foster stuff. it seems likely that even sawyer was in foster care at some point)? Tom could have been a foster brother...
Also, why did she call her mom by her first name when speaking with Tom. I think it was Diane. She said "Diane is dying" when she first met with Tom. She called her "mom" later when seeing her in the MRI room, but why didn't she call her "mom" when speaking with Tom? That has bugged me for awhile. Since this happens after Kate has supposedly blown up Wayne and Diane has turned her in, I think that explains why Kate stats referring to her as Diane. In What Kate Did she refers the Diane as Mom and Sam calls Diane, Kate's Mother, when she was 5.