I don't recall ever seeing this exact discussion, so excuse me if it's been talked about.

I just got to thinking that Hurley had the manifest and on the manifest it should list any special needs of the passengers. Next to "John Locke" it should have said something like, "wheelchair needs."

I can't imagine why the writers didn't know this. I also can't believe that it's taken me this long to realize it! I've always known this.

Also, surely Hurley would have noticed that Sawyer wasn't on the manifest because his real name is James something, unless Sawyers actually changed his name which is doubtful because in the police station the guy calls sawyer James. What do you think...

About the wheelchair, maybe the manifest isn't complete or bits of it are unreadable or destroyed or maybe Locke didnt tell them he was in a wheelchair like he didnt tell the people who organised the walk. hmmm, i dunno, these things are sometimes just forgotten i guess...

Its been a while since I've seen the last episode from last season,but Locke had to be carried on the plane because the crew didn't have the specific wheelchair needed for him, so he probably didn't tell them and it wasn't on the manifest

It wasn't a wheelchair he needed...it was a special lift they needed to get him up and down. When they told him they couldn't find it..the bigger attendant asked if they could carry him.

Whenever I fly...I know my wants and needs are known..(aisle seat..front of the plane..I'm tall and hate being in the back) so I can't imagine why someone in a wheelchair wouldn't have that listed as mine are just trivial and they know them...

Javi answered the question of Sawyer on the manifest here:

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=30443&highlight=manifest

As for Locke, I can totally see him not telling them about his "condition" but this was the return flight and they probably would have made a note of it after the flight out. The only way I see his needs not getting on the manifest is if he booked a new flight on a different airline from the one he flew down with.

I think that makes sense, since after the Walkabout company sent him back to Sydney he probably would just have wanted to get the first flight out.

First, thanks everyone for replying! :biggrin:

Also, surely Hurley would have noticed that Sawyer wasn't on the manifest because his real name is James something, unless Sawyers actually changed his name which is doubtful because in the police station the guy calls sawyer James. What do you think...

About the wheelchair, maybe the manifest isn't complete or bits of it are unreadable or destroyed or maybe Locke didnt tell them he was in a wheelchair like he didnt tell the people who organised the walk. hmmm, i dunno, these things are sometimes just forgotten i guess...
He wouldn't have had to tell them before he boarded for it to make it onto the maifest. It would have been added once they found out. It's all computerized.
Its been a while since I've seen the last episode from last season,but Locke had to be carried on the plane because the crew didn't have the specific wheelchair needed for him, so he probably didn't tell them and it wasn't on the manifest
Yes, you're right. It was a lift they were looking for.
It wasn't a wheelchair he needed...it was a special lift they needed to get him up and down. When they told him they couldn't find it..the bigger attendant asked if they could carry him.

Whenever I fly...I know my wants and needs are known..(aisle seat..front of the plane..I'm tall and hate being in the back) so I can't imagine why someone in a wheelchair wouldn't have that listed as mine are just trivial and they know them...
Exactly! Even the food you want is listed.
Javi answered the question of Sawyer on the manifest here:

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=30443&highlight=manifest

As for Locke, I can totally see him not telling them about his "condition" but this was the return flight and they probably would have made a note of it after the flight out. The only way I see his needs not getting on the manifest is if he booked a new flight on a different airline from the one he flew down with.

I think that makes sense, since after the Walkabout company sent him back to Sydney he probably would just have wanted to get the first flight out.
That's very possible, since he wasn't planning on going back on that flight but it would have still been added once they found out.

The tail end survivors would be on it to.

The tail end survivors would be on it to.

But hurley probally though they were all dead

But hurley probally though they were all dead

I wonder if before Hurley found the manifest, an "Other" like Ethan perhaps somehow was able to get the names of the people in the tail end who weren't in the core group from it, and passed the info along to Goodwin and The Others to be able and make a "list" of them and of who to kidnap. But how they determine who is "good" is beyond me.

I don't recall ever seeing this exact discussion, so excuse me if it's been talked about.

I just got to thinking that Hurley had the manifest and on the manifest it should list any special needs of the passengers. Next to "John Locke" it should have said something like, "wheelchair needs."

I can't imagine why the writers didn't know this. I also can't believe that it's taken me this long to realize it! I've always known this.

REPLY:
Not all airlines (in the real world) state on their passenger manifests special needs and/or diets of its passengers. Instead this information is coded.

I wonder if before Hurley found the manifest, an "Other" like Ethan perhaps somehow was able to get the names of the people in the tail end who weren't in the core group from it, and passed the info along to Goodwin and The Others to be able and make a "list" of them and of who to kidnap. But how they determine who is "good" is beyond me.

Yeah but surely he would have put his own name on the manifest so he could carry hia disguise even further.

no doubt because not alot of people ever think of that issue. i work in travel and it is an issue that has alot of attention for the carriers. Like where they placed him on the plane. unable to walk to the bathroom, and no special chair, how was he to go by himself. they would have been prepared for him with the wheel chair.
but instead no one knew where it was. which was suppose to lead the issue that the universe was trying to stop him from getting on board.
jack's dad not being ready was another sign

As far as Locke getting on the plane, SOMEONE must have seen a grown man being carried onto the plane. Was he really the first and only person on the plane at that time? I know all the times I have flown, there are a good number of people that need assistance getting on, and preboard. Someone must be suspicious about Locke's condition prior to the island. Also, it was a wheelchair they were looking for, they have a special slim one that fits up the aisle to take passengers to their seat that need wheelchair assistance ;)

Gate Agent

I'm sorry, sir, but the special wheelchair that we use for loading the disabled passengers - well, no one seems to know where it is right now. Unless we find it I'm not sure we can get you on.

and Ok, there was at least one other guy on the plane before Locke, stands to reason there were probably more

http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=486&pos=900

I wonder if before Hurley found the manifest, an "Other" like Ethan perhaps somehow was able to get the names of the people in the tail end who weren't in the core group from it, and passed the info along to Goodwin and The Others to be able and make a "list" of them and of who to kidnap. But how they determine who is "good" is beyond me.
I dunno. Hurley was pretty protective of that list.
REPLY:
Not all airlines (in the real world) state on their passenger manifests special needs and/or diets of its passengers. Instead this information is coded.
Thanks for this info. I haven't checked just how things are listed on the manifest in awhile so I didn't know that some use code.
no doubt because not alot of people ever think of that issue. i work in travel and it is an issue that has alot of attention for the carriers. Like where they placed him on the plane. unable to walk to the bathroom, and no special chair, how was he to go by himself. they would have been prepared for him with the wheel chair.
but instead no one knew where it was. which was suppose to lead the issue that the universe was trying to stop him from getting on board.
jack's dad not being ready was another sign
I never looked at it like that. I see where you're coming from. That does look like it was the case ... and remember how Hurley nearly didn't get on the plane either and neither would Sun have if she hadn't changed her mind or Sayid (being detained thatnks to Shannon). Wow! I really never saw those points before! Thanks!! :biggrin:
As far as Locke getting on the plane, SOMEONE must have seen a grown man being carried onto the plane. Was he really the first and only person on the plane at that time? I know all the times I have flown, there are a good number of people that need assistance getting on, and preboard. Someone must be suspicious about Locke's condition prior to the island. Also, it was a wheelchair they were looking for, they have a special slim one that fits up the aisle to take passengers to their seat that need wheelchair assistance ;)

and Ok, there was at least one other guy on the plane before Locke, stands to reason there were probably more

http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=486&pos=900
You know, I thought this too. But doesn't that scene show the boarding area as really vacant except for the crew and Locke? And I didn't see anyone in his section except for that one guy. Maybe he looked out the window the whole time?

There were several people around, it didnt look empty in this shot

http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=486&pos=885

jbdean i've been in confusion about the seating for a long time...if we go by the seats we know, as in locke's, kate's, jack's, marshal's, shannon's, boone's and rose's....then in EX2 when sawyer walks on he is on the right side, u see sayid look at him as he walks by...claire is helped by arzt who is sitting just up from jack, rose and locke...u see kate and the marshal walk on the right too she has her hands covered so no one can see the cuffs...then comes shannon looking for inhaler, gets it from boone who is to her left...cuts to sun and jin (no distinct seating)...then to michael and walt, michael checks walt's seatbealt...(u see the letters a and b) on their seats, but no numbers, looks as if to be the middle aisle...then cuts to hurley already on, coming down the left aisle, he passes michael and walt, and in that split second u can miss it if u are watching walt and hurley's exchange..where the overhead bins are, look right below on a runner is the #23...hurley passes and sits in the seats to the left, maybe two back from michael and walt...and if everyone has been wondering on dates, well walt is playing a gameboy advance, it came out in the last 3-5years...hmmm...gotta run, let me know what u think guys..
skybluelost:-))

i got the impression he was boarded last, but i see that he wasnt.
It still bothers me how he got about to the bathroom on the return flight. if he was alone, did the flight attendance help him. maybe the inability to use his legs is a mental one. He just gave up. thinking that the walkabout might bring back his legs.
anyway, i think the reason he doesnt want anyone to know why he can walk now, is so they dont ask what happened. we are nosy like that. if we werent we wouldnt be digging like we are here.
funny bet we could a personallity test on all of us, and that we all have alot in common.

There were several people around, it didnt look empty in this shot

http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=486&pos=885
Well, since none of those filks are on the island ... I guess it's safe to believe they're dead? Dead men tell no tales ... :rolleyes:
i got the impression he was boarded last, but i see that he wasnt.
It still bothers me how he got about to the bathroom on the return flight. if he was alone, did the flight attendance help him. maybe the inability to use his legs is a mental one. He just gave up. thinking that the walkabout might bring back his legs.
anyway, i think the reason he doesnt want anyone to know why he can walk now, is so they dont ask what happened. we are nosy like that. if we werent we wouldnt be digging like we are here.
funny bet we could a personallity test on all of us, and that we all have alot in common.
I wondered the same thing! Funny how that is. It's no short flight from Aus. to Calif. either. He would have had to have been carried to the bathroom if the plane hadn't crashed a few hours out.

Might be that and it might be that he fears no one will believe him. It is pretty far fetched.

I'd always assumed that the reason they weren't prepared was because it was a rush-job getting him on the flight following his not being allowed on the Walkabout. Also, the expression on his face when they tell him they don't have the lift would imply that he was expecting them not to have one (as if he hadn't told them himself). I also think that Locke's 'denial' about his condition may simply mean that he never says anything about his condition in such circumstances.

Not sure any of the survivors were on the plane when Locke was carried on board. Jack certainly boarded later, and I don't think any of the others were on that side of the plane. I could be quite wrong though

i love hollywood and their "vision" of the travel world.
if lock bought his ticket a while back, he got really cheap fares. fares with restrictions.
large unchangable restrictions. some with high costs attached. its funny because the only movie that showed the reality of flying was meet the faulkers. when the boyfriend tried to leave early, she quoted him a large amount to change the ticket.
but even then if he showed up for an earlier flight, they would have known by his out bound flight!
i think it was the universe telling him not to board that plane.

there are two clues that they are not where they think they are.
1. the black rock, a slave ship
2. the drug plane with the nigerian drugs.

Well the thing about Sawyer is that Hurley does not like him espically than the rest of them so he probaly did'nt even think about Sawyer or he was to afraid /nervous sort of speak to ask him

The one about Locke it was not registered that he had a wheel chair becaues he was lifted one and they probaly never thought of putting it down

I'd always assumed that the reason they weren't prepared was because it was a rush-job getting him on the flight following his not being allowed on the Walkabout. Also, the expression on his face when they tell him they don't have the lift would imply that he was expecting them not to have one (as if he hadn't told them himself). I also think that Locke's 'denial' about his condition may simply mean that he never says anything about his condition in such circumstances.

Not sure any of the survivors were on the plane when Locke was carried on board. Jack certainly boarded later, and I don't think any of the others were on that side of the plane. I could be quite wrong though
The more I read everyone's posts the more I am beginning to agree that Locke's denial of his condition is probably why the wheelchair wasn't listed on the manifest. But even if it was, the post about some airlines using code instead of wording to show special needs makes sense, too.
i love hollywood and their "vision" of the travel world.
if lock bought his ticket a while back, he got really cheap fares. fares with restrictions.
large unchangable restrictions. some with high costs attached. its funny because the only movie that showed the reality of flying was meet the faulkers. when the boyfriend tried to leave early, she quoted him a large amount to change the ticket.
but even then if he showed up for an earlier flight, they would have known by his out bound flight!
i think it was the universe telling him not to board that plane.

there are two clues that they are not where they think they are.
1. the black rock, a slave ship
2. the drug plane with the nigerian drugs.
How do those two items show they are not "where they think they are"?

How do those two items show they are not "where they think they are"?

I was curious about that too....

I agree with Locke's denial and the probability that anyone seeing him loaded on the plane is dead or just wasn't paying attention. The few times I've flown, I haven't noticed anything other than what was going on with my stuff and family. There are also several times when I'll watch what's going on but not really see or remember any specific person. There are a lot of people like me that are trained not to stare at individuals with special needs because it's rude and makes everyone uncomfortable so unless he was talking to me, I wouldn't have made eye contact.

Another point on Locke: I, for one, if I had noticed his condition and known from loading, would have seriously doubted my recollection after surviving a horrible crash then seen him walking? And there's no way I'd go up to him and ask, " weren't you the handicap guy on our flight?"

As far as Sawyer, he had the manifest first and could have added "Sawyer" as a nickname for himself. Hurley had to get the manifest from him a few days later.

Well mabey this is a mystery the Island had somthing to do with

I agree with Locke's denial and the probability that anyone seeing him loaded on the plane is dead or just wasn't paying attention. The few times I've flown, I haven't noticed anything other than what was going on with my stuff and family. There are also several times when I'll watch what's going on but not really see or remember any specific person. There are a lot of people like me that are trained not to stare at individuals with special needs because it's rude and makes everyone uncomfortable so unless he was talking to me, I wouldn't have made eye contact.

Another point on Locke: I, for one, if I had noticed his condition and known from loading, would have seriously doubted my recollection after surviving a horrible crash then seen him walking? And there's no way I'd go up to him and ask, " weren't you the handicap guy on our flight?"

As far as Sawyer, he had the manifest first and could have added "Sawyer" as a nickname for himself. Hurley had to get the manifest from him a few days later.
I think most people would not take notice of all those people on a plane when they have their own stuff to contend with. I know that when I fly, often solo, I can't tell you the face of the people that I sat next to. This is mainly because, I usually read or sleep during a flight and I'm not a chatty person so I rarely get into chats with other passengers. But I can see (on the Talies' side) someone like Cindy remembering a passenger or even AL since their professions require them to have good recall on faces.

But if Sawyer added his name, wouldn't it have had to have been handwritten in? The manifest should be computer printed.

As for people with special needs, don't worry about making eye contact. Do it like anyone else and smile warmly. :smile: Staring and eye contact are totally different. I'm like you and was trained that "we don't stare ... it's not polite." But a warm smile and eye contact is great for anyone! :biggrin:
Well mabey this is a mystery the Island had somthing to do withThis just may be the case!

Just a thought, but perhaps Sawyer uses the name James Sawyer on official documentation. That would explain the policeman calling him James (don't think he mentioned a last name).

I may have missed something that disproves this though, so do let me know if I'm wrong.

No true he did'nt mention a last name but at that time he did'nt know what he had done so there was no reson for him to call him Sawyer and he said it in a normal way.

Though as it was said not all the manifest might have been their ,and he just used the names from the pad he was working on

I wonder if before Hurley found the manifest, an "Other" like Ethan perhaps somehow was able to get the names of the people in the tail end who weren't in the core group from it, and passed the info along to Goodwin and The Others to be able and make a "list" of them and of who to kidnap. But how they determine who is "good" is beyond me.

I thought the reason that the Others had a list of who was in the tail section was because Goodwin made it. He was there from the time they started coming out of the water, so he had time to observe and make notations for the others about the group.

I wonder if Hurley will think to take another look at that manifest just in passing and notice something that will come into play at another time?

I thought the reason that the Others had a list of who was in the tail section was because Goodwin made it. He was there from the time they started coming out of the water, so he had time to observe and make notations for the others about the group.

I wonder if Hurley will think to take another look at that manifest just in passing and notice something that will come into play at another time?
Yea, the list AL found was written on a scrap piece of paper, like from a legal pad (it looked yellow). And she said it listed what they were wearing. That info would not have been on any maifest.

Good point on Hurley checking the manifest again. Since he found "Ethan" that way, he might double check it again to be sure. Wouldn't it be a hoot and a half if he finds Nathan on the manifest? Yet another thing that AL would have done wrong.

Why was not Jack not listed as a doctor?

It probably is on the manifest. Even though i like him Hurley doesn't seem to be that smart of a person maybe he just never noticed it.

I think that Hurley would be the first one to understand a nickname since his own entry probably doesn’t list him by that name. Since he also got the manifest from Sawyer they could have easily had an off camera conversation where Sawyer tells him he’ll be listed as James Ford or Hurley could have asked outright why Sawyer is not listed. They obviously can’t show us every conversation they can possibly have with each other, there just isn’t time and some would be boring.

As for Locke that’s a more interesting subject. If his condition was known and listed it was probably in code as suggested. My guess is as a privacy issue just in cause the list does fall into the wrong hands. Of course I found it hard to believe they didn’t even address the issue of the hours he’d have no bathroom access once they carried him to the chair while they decided what to do about the missing special equipment. I also doubt I’d remember a handicapped person postcrash to even make an issue had I seen someone carried onto a flight, mainly because I know I don’t pay attention to others when I fly. I’d have to say that the reason they’ve kept the survivors in the dark (through Locke’s purposeful avoidance, Boone dying right after being told, and putting Locke on the plane early) is to prevent direct inquiries of Locke to prolong the answer to the question of what caused his paralysis.

Why was not Jack not listed as a doctor?

Would that necessarily be listed on the manifest?

There's not any evidence that he wasn't either, it's never been a secret that Jack was a doctor. The first thing he did was start helping people after the crash.

I don't think the wheelchair status would necessarily be listed on the manifest. That's more of a thing that's dealt with at the airport than on the plane.

It is quite easy to avoid using the bathroom on a long flight if you want to. You might feel a little light-headed when you get off the plane but it's not hard, you just pay attention to when you eat, drink and go to the bathroom before the flight.

I don't think the wheelchair status would necessarily be listed on the manifest. That's more of a thing that's dealt with at the airport than on the plane.

It is quite easy to avoid using the bathroom on a long flight if you want to. You might feel a little light-headed when you get off the plane but it's not hard, you just pay attention to when you eat, drink and go to the bathroom before the flight.

An argument can be made that the wheelchair status might not have been on the manifest, but the fact that Locke probably needs assistance going to the toilet almost certainly would be. However, as I indicated earlier, I tend towards the view that this information was not there due to the fact that Locke was not 'meant' to be on the flight (having been sent back from the Walkabout at the last moment).

In respect of 'tying a knot in it' in order to forgo the need to visit the toilet -
Sydney to Los Angeles is a 13 1/2 hour flight. Even using the method you suggest, he would almost certainly need to go again. I've never been able to do that on such a flight, and I don't think I've sat next to anyone who's been able to either. I would love to learn though - I could sleep the whole way then! :)

Would that necessarily be listed on the manifest?
From what I understand of Australian custom, doctors are not given the high status that they get in America (don't know if you're American or not). By that I mean they don't call them Doctor and they don't get special treatment like in the States. I believe it was mentioned way back during season 1 that the filight rep didn't refer to him as Doctor and it was for this reason. So, it's not too far fetched to believe that his doctor status wouldn't have been on the manifest but, as another poster said ... it was no secret so it's a moot point really. :smile:
An argument can be made that the wheelchair status might not have been on the manifest, but the fact that Locke probably needs assistance going to the toilet almost certainly would be. However, as I indicated earlier, I tend towards the view that this information was not there due to the fact that Locke was not 'meant' to be on the flight (having been sent back from the Walkabout at the last moment).

In respect of 'tying a knot in it' in order to forgo the need to visit the toilet -
Sydney to Los Angeles is a 13 1/2 hour flight. Even using the method you suggest, he would almost certainly need to go again. I've never been able to do that on such a flight, and I don't think I've sat next to anyone who's been able to either. I would love to learn though - I could sleep the whole way then! :)
I think that it would have been on the manifest but in code. So without knowing the code, Hurley wouldn't have know Locke had needed assistance.

But on another manifest note ... I thought it was great that in The Hunting Party Locke told Sawyer that Hurley had let him look at the manifest and that's how Locke knew his real name.Now that makes me wonder if he saw it before Hurley had really looked it over and removed any mention of his needing assistance or being in a wheelchair. Possible, no?

So, it's not too far fetched to believe that his doctor status wouldn't have been on the manifest

I entirely share your view. I don't think my earlier post was quite clear.

I thought it was great that in The Hunting Party Locke told Sawyer that Hurley had let him look at the manifest and that's how Locke knew his real name.Now that makes me wonder if he saw it before Hurley had really looked it over and removed any mention of his needing assistance or being in a wheelchair. Possible, no?

Very possible. Locke has always seemed uneasy about revealing that to anyone, except Boone. I've only today seen HP, but it was an interesting turn

P.S. On reflection, I hope my previous post didn't come across too heavy-handed xanthateto.

P.P.S. (don't know if you're American or not).I'm in the UK - I'm sure our post office will provide the service mentioned on that site. Will let you know!

Maybe on the manifest befide Loke's name there was an abbreviation for dissabled and Hurley didn't really care what it ment.

And people do know that sawyer isn't his real name, because Locke mentioned it in "The Hunting Party" episode.

Maybe on the manifest befide Loke's name there was an abbreviation for dissabled and Hurley didn't really care what it ment.

And people do know that sawyer isn't his real name, because Locke mentioned it in "The Hunting Party" episode.
You may be right, either that or Hurley didn't know what it meant.

But very few on the island know that Sawyer is really James. That's why he was so cagey when Locke asked him how he found out.