Ep not doing it for you? Tell us why.

This seemed like a set up episode. Not so much filler, but more like a prologue to the next one. Lots of exposition explaining who the Others are and reminding viewers who missed what they've done. But I would've liked a little more information from old Henry. I thought he would break and spill it but Jack had to step in and ruin everything. Then Locke has to enter the numbers in time and ruin everything there. And crushing a tree frog? What's up with that?? Why on earth would Hurley help him after how Sawyer treated him when he said he didn't care if people knew about the food. I didn't get that entire subplot.

This episode left me baffled and frustrated.

Oh, and were they trying to say that those nice kind Iraqis have never tortured anyone in their lives until the big bad Americans came along and taught them how? That kind of offended me.

Well, for the first time in a while, you won't see me dissing the episode in this thread. I loved it.

Yes, the countdown was a tease, but it gave up a little info, even if it wasn't entirely clear what it was. And the introduction of Henry Gale at least opens up the door to what could be a wealth of information. No, we didn't get any info tonight, but like I've said in past "Eh, could have been better" threads, it's not necessarily answers that I look for, just progress. And the introduction of Henry Gale is most certainly progress.

I'm not sure what to make of the Sawyer/Hurley side-plot, outside of the writers just re-enforcing that he is cruel even when he doesn't need to be which is directly juxtaposed to Hurley, who is kind even when he doesn't need to be. And maybe that's all it was.

I'm not sure what to make of the Sawyer/Hurley side-plot, outside of the writers just re-enforcing that he is cruel even when he doesn't need to be which is directly juxtaposed to Hurley, who is kind even when he doesn't need to be. And maybe that's all it was.

But we knew that didn't we? Waste of a perfectly good subplot when they have precious few minutes per episode to begin with.

allrighty guys , I'm seriously fed up. I love the show but we still didn't get any answers .. we're not even close to know what can happen if the button is not pushed.
I thought from the preview that the button thing was the minimum we were going to find out , but still nothing ...and now we've 2 week of waiting for no reasons and i'm sure next episode it's gonna be the same way ...seriously i'm fed up :mad:

Oh, and were they trying to say that those nice kind Iraqis have never tortured anyone in their lives until the big bad Americans came along and taught them how? That kind of offended me. I think the point they were making was that war is dirty...no matter what side is the victor or which side is 'good', good people on both sides will suffer. Enemies are going to die and so are innocents. War changes people, and not usually in any way good. I think they were showing the impact war has on all people, with the pilot being executed and leaving a family behind....and Sayid learning a trade im sure he would rather be without.


Vertical: I'm not sure what to make of the Sawyer/Hurley side-plot, outside of the writers just re-enforcing that he is cruel even when he doesn't need to be which is directly juxtaposed to Hurley, who is kind even when he doesn't need to be. And maybe that's all it was. Those scenes lost me as well. It may have given us sone insight into Hurley and the fact that he may be a compulsive eater and thus why he was in a psych ward, but mostly it seemed like a reenforcement of last episode's Sawyer=bad theme.

All in all I loved the episode very much, so i probably dont belong in this thread ;)

There were things I liked about this episode but the Sawyer/Hurley thing was just too...much. Sawyer is a first class jerk. Ok..we know.

I'm am tired of Jack and Locke going off on each other..although I did like Jack telling Locke to 'shut up!" :D

I agree about the Iraqus and the torture thing. No one in the world ever tortured anyone until the Americans came along..but I don't think the guy who forced Sayid to do that was regular Army...I'll have to watch again and see.

But we knew that didn't we? Waste of a perfectly good subplot when they have precious few minutes per episode to begin with.

Yeah I do agree. That subplot was entirely filler.. well, and we did finally find out why Hurley wasn't losing any weight. I guess it was just there to make us even more disgusted by Sawyer. I hope Hurley doesn't die from that 'good for 7 years in room temperature' Ranch nasty dressing.

Oh and Pacejunkie I like the darth hoodie pic in your sig hehe

I'm kind of in a 'meh' mood. I'm just not sure what thread I belong im!

It wasn't bad but its not something I think I'll watch over and over..it was just sort of..there.

Oh and Pacejunkie I like the darth hoodie pic in your sig hehe

Thanks. It's staying until Charlie redeems himself. :smile:

I must admit I enjoyed seeing Sayid on the ragged edge, and I REALLY enjoyed seeing Jack get in Locke's face, even if it wasn't the rumble I hope is coming soon. And the ending of this episode, with Sayid and Charlie on the beach was pretty cool too.

Then ofcoarse we DO have the seemingly pointless tree frog thing.That went NOWHERE, just like Michael looking for Walt at a waterfall. NOWHERE!!

All I can hope for is that the tree frog secreted a poison that is now soaking into satan.....I mean SAWYERS hand. And that he will die smirking.

And Pace, I agree, they whole thing about the american's "teaching" Sayid how to torture was just stupid.

Lets start eating away at theose egyptian symbol dharma clock screen captures, shall we? And didya notice the clock in the peisode didn't match the clock in the frikin' previews. WTF????????????????

You'd think after the ubbub of the quarantine doors they'd know better, but just like jack and locke, they have FORGOTTEN!!

Njc------------------

Well, for the first time in a while, you won't see me dissing the episode in this thread. I loved it.

Yes, the countdown was a tease, but it gave up a little info, even if it wasn't entirely clear what it was. And the introduction of Henry Gale at least opens up the door to what could be a wealth of information. No, we didn't get any info tonight, but like I've said in past "Eh, could have been better" threads, it's not necessarily answers that I look for, just progress. And the introduction of Henry Gale is most certainly progress.

I'm not sure what to make of the Sawyer/Hurley side-plot, outside of the writers just re-enforcing that he is cruel even when he doesn't need to be which is directly juxtaposed to Hurley, who is kind even when he doesn't need to be. And maybe that's all it was.

I am also glad that I finally get to be one of the devil's advocates posting on the "Hated It" thread! :harhar1:

I think Henry Gale is clearly an "Other". He totally stole his history from the Wizard of Oz. They've probably got the DVD on the island and he just pulled that story out of his as* when Sayid was grilling him.

The Sawyer thing was quite ironic. When he went with Kate after the boar that was REALLY making him miserable, he didn't shoot it. This time he killed a fairly harmless frog. Because Kate wasn't there to influence him? Or is he just sinking a little lower each week? Hmmmmmmmmmmm..................

GREAT EPISODE!! You're nuts if you hated it!!! :biggrin:

I couldn't disagree more with this conditioned jingoistic sentiment.

Watch it. You disagree, fine. But no need to get personal.

I'm not sure what to make of the Sawyer/Hurley side-plot, outside of the writers just re-enforcing that he is cruel even when he doesn't need to be which is directly juxtaposed to Hurley, who is kind even when he doesn't need to be. And maybe that's all it was.

Concur with what has been said. I think after the previous episode we already know that Sawyer is "bad to the bone". Why take the time to show it off again? The interaction between Hurley and him was good, but like many other viewers I wanted to know more about Henry. I wanted to know more about the "others". Heck, I'll take knowing more about Rousseau. The scenes with Hurley and Sawyer just didn't flow with the episode, unless it was suppose to be some sort of comic relief.

I didn't buy into Sayid's love for Shannon and had kind of soured on his character. However, I enjoyed his character tonight. Especally his words at the end to Charlie. How quickly some have forgotten about who they are dealing with.

I do look forward to seeing the screen captures of when the counter hit 0.

I don't enjoy seeing Sawyer portrayed not just as a manipulator out for himself but a leering sadist and I don't enjoy seeing Sayid robbed of his angsty conflict and deciding that he now has radar that tells him he can spot an enemy by torturing him and feeling no remorse. That's like the way they used to test for witches. They'd bind them and throw them in the river. If they floated and survived, they were witches and were executed. If they sank, they were innocent but dead.

They're fast turning complex characters into one-note, gone over to the dark side caricatures, and I don't like it. It has nothing to do with the lack of answers. The characterizations were depressing and left a bad taste in my mouth (sorta like that ranch dressing at tropical jungle temperature, I would imagine.)

Cardie

If those scenes were supposed to be comic relief..they fell flat. At least to me.

Another padded episode. And they needed to add 3 minutes to the show's running time for what exactly? Give me a break.

Sayid disobeys Danielle and cuts the guy down BEFORE asking questions? Why wasn't he suspicious enough to be careful... oh, that's right, so the guy could run and the writer's could have Danielle Robin Hood him in the shoulder.

So what did we learn from this episode?... as little as possible as always.

Sayid used to torture people and still has hang ups about it- yeah, we knew that.

Sawyer will track down a tree frog- the equivilent of looking for a needle in a haystack- because he can't sleep and then needlessly kill it- yeah, I get it, Sawyer is bad. He's a con man. Been there done that.

Hurley is stealing food. Big revelation there. Now I've be able to sleep tonight.

The clock gives you a few extra seconds to input the numbers. Great. And I thought something good was actually going to happen. And notice that no one talked about what happened with the clock hitting zero? No discussion of the strange symbols? I guess we'll sweep that under the rug like everything else.

They are dragging things out way too much. I hope the ratings start to drop soon so TPTB get a wake up call. If I had a Nielsen box, I would switch to Veronica Mars.

Last time there was a torture scene (Solitary), the subplot was the cool golf course. The time before that when Sawyer was tortured, the subplot was imaginary peanut butter. They used to be good at juxtaposing heavy, angsty scenes with light funny ones. I didn't find senseless killing of a tree frog funny at all. It certainly wasn't "light".

The more I think about it..the less and less I like this episode but the thing is I can't get 'passionate' in my dislike! There were good parts in it but not enough for me to get excited and put it on my personal best episode lists.

I think I'm going to have to watch it again before I make a final judgement but the thing is..I really don't want to.

hard for me to give explanation on WHY.

the show just isn't doing it for me lately... pretty committed fan of the show from day 1, but tonite i wondered aloud to my wife, 'why am i watching this'

maybe its just the disjointed feel the show has with all of the hiatuses... the commercialization of the show as a property is a real turn off... im not opposed to making money, thats the business of the networks, but the negative for the networks as they try and maximize revenue is they are seriously minimizing the quality of the series...

just venting...

I agree with what everyone has said about the Sawyer-Tree Frog knock down. What was that about? Rather pointless. I did like this edgy Sayid and thought the end scene with Charlie was pretty intriguing. More than dis-satisfaction with the episodes I am really getting fed up with the constant breaks.

I wonder what season it will be before someone pulls back the curtain to reveal who the wizard of Oz is on this island...

I didn't like this episode very much but it might be the way I watched it. I have a DVR and normally I will start watching it 15-20 minutes late so I can fast forward all the commercials. Today I watched it along with being online with the Live Thread. The show seemed really short like it was all commercials.

I wonder if the Hurley/Sawyer scene was simply to put an end to everyone bugging TPTB about why Hurley hasn't lost weight. The obvious answer is Hurley is a fictional character and the person playing him is not on a strange island with little food. But everyone kept asking so maybe they felt they were doing us/the actor (tired- can't remember his name and know I'll spell it wrong) a favor by writing it into the script.

A very Meh-minus ep for me.

Once again, I thought the flashback redundant of what we already knew. And I'm finding these walk-thru flashback "connections" forced and obligatory. They seem just inserted for the purpose of making us go "Oh, there's Kate's Dad-Not!" No real connection, just an appearance. OK, we got it, they crossed paths in pre-Isle of Mystery Life. Check.

But the real problem I am having is how disjointed and stand-alone each ep feels this season, with no connection to the one preceding it. So The New Sheriff stuff? Completly forgotten. We did learn that the guns are not, as many of us speculated and hoped, back in the vault in the hatch. So we are left with our (my) worse case scenerio for the guns - Sawyer did indeed secret them away somewhere in the jungle, and no one cares. They are out there rusting and rotting, that is if the others have not snatched them. And Sawyer is free to roam as he pleases, including to go get a gun or two at his leisure. No one is watching him, following him? Maybe Hurley? Puh-leeze. Arsenal gone and Locke is snoozing in the hatch? And Jack and Locke can only muster their now familiar back and forth spat? Are these two an old married couple?

Sayid has all this pent up grief over Shannon, but no problem interacting with her killer. An "accident" I know, but he should still have a problem even being in her presence. And did anyone else burst into laughter when he instructed AnaL to "go back to the beach and tell no one!" As if anyone ever tells anyone else ANYTHING!!! It's the first rule of the Isle of Mystery: thou shalt not share info.

Then finally, Sayid interacts with Charlie as if he did not just see him set the fire that threatened to burn the camp down a night or two ago.

I came to accept long ago that this show does not engage in "linear" storytelling. Things happen and get dropped for a very long period. But it still feels jarring to me when the characters interact as if the last thing that happened between them never happened. This bothers me way more than the glacial pace or the lack of "answers".

Each to his own opinon, and I often have the opposite feeling about an ep as most posters have, but I am very surprised that some posters who hated Fire + Water and villified it as filler thought tonight's ep was great.

Previews were awesome though, now THIS is shaping up to be a real Sweeps-worthy ep.

You've summed my feelings up perfectly McGuane. I'm actually surprised they thought this episode was sweepsworthy. I expected it would reveal much more for being in sweeps.

To me, this episode reminds me of "All the best cowboys..." from season 1. Back then, did any of us really have any idea what Locke and Boone had just unearthed? No, but it has completed changed the face of the show this season, and became the focal point for the second half of season 1.

Tonight, we 'unearth' Henry Gale. And I think it will be an equally daunting task cracking Henry Gale as it was cracking into the Hatch. But ultimately, it will reward us with new insight into the island, as well as giving us more questions. Who knows what secrets Henry Gale holds?

I do find it interesting that the thing most people have chosen to harp on is the relatively unimportant side-plot of Hurley/Sawyer. If that's the worst thing about this episode, then I don't think it could have been all that bad.

Yeah, McGuane, said a lot of what I had to say.
Elfdream, I think I feel similiarly to you. Some of what we saw was okay and interesting... but most of it was sort of "eh...". I can't quite put my finger on it. I didn't hate the episode, so I'm glad this thread isn't called "Worst Episode Ever!" like people used to post, but I certinaly dindn't love it.

The timer did not upset me like it did some people. I thought the symbols and red color were very cool. I don't think we'll suddnely know what happened because those symbols showed up... but maybe we'll find out this season. And that doesn't bother me. Slow reveals on the greater Mythology don't bother me.

It's like McGuane said. Why does it have to be so disjointed? Hello, New Sheriff in Town? Why aren't people concerned about the guns? Why is A-L so totally out of character? Why can Sayid even talk to her? Why is Sayid talking to Charlie? Isn't Charlie a leper, basically, now?

The Hurley and Sawyer scenes really really annoyed me. Very unnecessary killing of the tree frog. What was the point of that? Unnecessary nickname dropping too. I know Sawyer gives nicknames. And I get that when he wants to be sincere, he uses their real name, but isn't that getting a little old?... And Hurley hording food annoyed me too. The peanut butter and ranch dressing showing up were okay references back to previous episodes, but where did he get a frickin' yellow pepper?
And that scene annoys me because when Charlie is originally trying to get peanut butter (way before the hatch), Hurley gets upset about the notion of the fat guy hoarding the food. And now he *is* hoarding the food? Lame...
The only redeeming thing about that scene was that Sawyer called him Hurley, as his was of being sincere. But Hurley's a nickname. And if Sawyer knew that, he'd realize that this guy is rich (because he read Hugo's message in bottle). I appreciated that bit of irony or insider knowledge.... or whatever you'd call it.

The Jack and Locke thing was a bit tired but on the whole I liked it. I really liked the Sayid and Henry scenes. I really thought Sayid acted magnificently when he was crying about Shannon. And I'm glad that Sayid was finally acting on his rage and depression over her death.
Annoying that the one person who heard about the obvious Wizard of Oz references may have never seen that movie, since he's Iraqi... great...

The FBs were okay. Not great. A bit tired. I also was a bit annoyed about the Americans bringing torture to Iraqis thing, pace. Played a bit weird to me.
The Sgt. Austen thing was a good cross, mostly because Diane crossed in the prev. episode. I liked that Kate was in the episode... yet not in the episode.

Can you tell I'm conflicted about this one?

Tonight, we 'unearth' Henry Gale. And I think it will be an equally daunting task cracking Henry Gale as it was cracking into the Hatch. But ultimately, it will reward us with new insight into the island, as well as giving us more questions. Who knows what secrets Henry Gale holds?

I do find it interesting that the thing most people have chosen to harp on is the relatively unimportant side-plot of Hurley/Sawyer. If that's the worst thing about this episode, then I don't think it could have been all that bad.


The point is, this episode (once again) gave us very little progress and a lot of filler and repeating info.

Did we need the tree frog subplot? No. And please don't anyone say that damn tree frog is going to come back later and "mean something". Sawyer stealing the guns was swept under the rug and Hurley is helping him hunt a down tree frog? Please.

Sayid used to torture people, is haunted by the memories and yet sometimes he has to use those techniques... Been there done that.

So what are we left with? The episode was 63 mintues long. They added 3 minutes for what?... $$$$$......

What little progress we do get in an episode could be done in 30 minutes. Most of the episodes are filler and repeating info. Pathetic.

The point is, this episode (once again) gave us very little progress and a lot of filler and repeating info.

Did we need the tree frog subplot? No. And please don't anyone say that damn tree frog is going to come back later and "mean something". Sawyer stealing the guns was swept under the rug and Hurley is helping him hunt a down tree frog? Please. I can agree with that, the tree frog side-plot was (seemingly) irrelevant and pointless, for the most part. I'm not about to defend that portion of the episode. But it also wasn't a major portion of the episode, so it didn't bother me the way it's really aggravating some people.

And although this episode gave us 'very little' progress, it at least did give us some progress, unlike F+W and TLC. In this episode we finally see Danielle again (brief though it was), we have the capture of a potential other, who also holds the potential for a ton of information, and we see that yes, in fact, something does happen when the clock hits zero. We don't know exactly what, yet, but we heard large things moving around in the hatch, and we see some strange symbols (which you can bet your arse will come back into play, unlike the tree frog or Kate's tiny airplane). So clearly we're being told that Jack is wrong, something will happen. And black and red colors seem to be implying it's not a good thing. My guess is they'll have to find Desmond again to figure out what the heck those symbols might mean.

You can't expect them to find Henry Gale and crack him in one episode. That would be the equivalent of finding the hatch and opening it in one episode. There is a benefit to dramatic pacing, making the final reveal all that much more magnificent. I'm hungry for answers to, but at least now enough progress has been made that the Lostaways are in a position to find something out, what with an Other at their mercy. Before tonight, there was no way to get answers. Now they have that. That's progress. I think it's a bit unrealistic to demand Henry Gale be introduced and cracked all in the same episode.

Sayid used to torture people, is haunted by the memories and yet sometimes he has to use those techniques... Been there done that. But Kate's father wasn't there before. And we didn't know that Sayid wasn't just a torturer. Before tonight, I thought that's what he did for the Iraqi army - torture people. Clearly, that's not the case. There was more to it than that. He didn't torture because he wanted to, he did it because he needed to.

So what are we left with? The episode was 63 mintues long. They added 3 minutes for what?... $$$$$......

What little progress we do get in an episode could be done in 30 minutes. Most of the episodes are filler and repeating info. Pathetic. This is true of even the best episodes. Exodus Part II, one of my favorites, had it's share of non-super-important scenes as well, and probably could have been boiled down to 30 minutes.

I didn't like this episode, and I am pretty forgiving. So the big bad CIA taught the poor little Iraqi how to torture. Bull. Also, of course the fat guy is hording food. You don't get fat without having a cumpulsive eating problem and the compulsion is to horde and/or eat food without even really having to be hungry. If this wasn't a problem he wouldn't be fat. And the whole frog thing was a waste of time. Like that was the only tree frog in a jungle?! I felt the episode felt contrived and forced and not very well thought out. I often don't catch the subtle things until i read the message boards, but even I felt I was being force fed.

I came to accept long ago that this show does not engage in "linear" storytelling. Things happen and get dropped for a very long period. But it still feels jarring to me when the characters interact as if the last thing that happened between them never happened. This bothers me way more than the glacial pace or the lack of "answers".



That's a frustration for me, too -- the story has become very disjointed.

But I thought this episode was okay -- at least you had Jin mad at Sawyer, and Sayid and Charlie discussing the bad things The Others had done. No amnesia there. I half hoped that Sayid would end the show by asking Charlie where he hid the guns for Sawyer.

I don't usually complain about the story not moving forward, but this episode was pretty annoying as far as that goes. What's with Locke entering to slow, but then making it just in time --- I thought that was kind of lame.

I'm happy because the writers were obviously reading my posts and took them into account this week. Upon my advice, they focused on Locke and Sayid. Sayid's getting more complex because he seems much more on the edge and capable of losing it (with disasterous consequences) than he did before. And they had Sawyer do something (squish a frog with his bare hand) to help me see him as a villain. And they acknowledged that some of the characters have been kind of stupid in forgetting things that have happened. Thanks for doing these things just for me, writers!:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: I liked the mounting tension between Locke and Jack good, too.
Things I didn't like: the hunt for the frog was lame, it didn't make sense to torture that guy so quickly (why not wait a bit, try to make friends with him and see what he says - or make him show you where the balloon is), the reference to the army was silly (cause the whole idea of an army is silly),

I thought the clock did hit zero and Locke was late..... But it went back to 108 anyway. Doesn't that prove that NOTHING happens if they don't enter the numbers on time??

The Sawyer thing was quite ironic. When he went with Kate after the boar that was REALLY making him miserable, he didn't shoot it. This time he killed a fairly harmless frog. Because Kate wasn't there to influence him? Or is he just sinking a little lower each week? Hmmmmmmmmmmm..................

Great point Obsessed; I hadn't made the connection to Sawyer's opposite reaction at the end of Outlaws. But even with that twist, I still found this subplot kinda pointless, apart from the revelation that Hurley had a secret stash.

One thing that just occured to me, however - Sawyer is slowly but surely learning secrets about many different lostaways (Charlie attacked Sun, Hurley has been stealing food)... Wonder if/how he'll use them in the future...?

I thought the clock did hit zero and Locke was late..... But it went back to 108 anyway. Doesn't that prove that NOTHING happens if they don't enter the numbers on time??

No, I think it proves that the writers wanted to screw with us by making us think something was going to happen.

Bascially it proves that something starts to happen if the numbers aren't entered on time but you still have a few seconds to enter them.

Next season the numbers won't be entered in time and the red and black heiroglyphics will start to show and when they still don't enter the numbers in time, something else will happen, then they'll enter the numbers and it will reset to 108... then fans will get excited again, analyze the new thing that happened and call it progress.

But it went back to 108 anyway. Doesn't that prove that NOTHING happens if they don't enter the numbers on time??

Well, there were some noises. Something happened. I'm sure we will find out what that was in the 17th episode of season 4. I must admit, I was hoping for somehting different, somehting that involved blast doors and Michael and Walt.

I didn't hate this episode like last weeks, but they are a long way from being great.

Tree frogs come in the thousands not just one, but since we have to have this utterly absurd storyline, only one frog on this island is chirping. Yeah right. I felt sorry for the guy who plays Hurley. I love Sayid but having this torture session with the "other" be all about Shannon turned me off because I never bought their relationship in the first place. I'm tired of Jack and Locke's squabbles and Sawyer's one-liners and nicknames. And most of all, I'm sick to death of the lack of continuity in these eps. I just knew Sawyer and Charlie's return to the dark side would be dropped by the next episode. They do this every time. I won't be buying the DVD's for this season.

Why are they hiding the women from us? No scenes with ANY of the island women, except a brief AL scene. Why have they minimized Kate, Sun, Libby, and Claire to this extent?

hey people. long time reader, first time poster.

Lately, I've been reading many complaints (like the ones above me) concerning the fact that the producers have been spreading out much of the plot.

As for myself, I believe that this show should be a marathon, rather than a mad dash...which is the obvious path a show should take since it does want to retain some longevity. It has been, for the most part, on a steady and balanced pace, considering that it is a mystery show (i.e. twin peaks..and of course..the 1st season of lost).

I have developed a profound interest in the average "lost fan." I am a sociology major at UC Berkeley, and I have to write my dissertation next semester. Long story short, I am focusing on the impatience in American society. Along with many other subjects (like music and movies), LOST will be a prime example in my thesis. Suffice it to say that the results have been remarkable. So far, I have found (in a poll with over a 1000 surveys in California, New York and Florida, and a 3+- margin of error) that the majority (66 percent) of people who complain about the "slow pace" of the show are age 13-17. While the 18-34 demographic seem to be relatively happy with the show. (64 percent of males and females aged 18-34 believe that the show is on the right path, while only 18 percent believe it's losing its touch.)

Anyway. Just thought I'd put in my two cents.

I have developed a profound interest in the average "lost fan." I am a sociology major at UC Berkeley, and I have to write my dissertation next semester. Long story short, I am focusing on the impatience in American society. Along with many other subjects (like music and movies), LOST will be a prime example in my thesis. Suffice it to say that the results have been remarkable. So far, I have found (in a poll with over a 1000 surveys in California, New York and Florida, and a 3+- margin of error) that the majority (66 percent) of people who complain about the "slow pace" of the show are age 13-17. While the 18-34 demographic seem to be relatively happy with the show. (64 percent of males and females aged 18-34 believe that the show is on the right path, while only 18 percent believe it's losing its touch.)


Pretty interesting stuff. However I would think there are much better examples of our society's impatience than satisfaction with Lost. MTV, videoes and video games have had a profound effect on my generation (I'm 33). MTV's video style of fast cuts and short clips have influenced TV and movies. People are also used to getting what they want when they want it: Fast Food, the newest electronic gadgets, information on the internet and nearly everyone has a cell phone so they can contact people immediately.

So yeah, I think people are more impatient than they were 20 years ago. But that doesn't mean a TV Show like Lost isn't dragging out plots and storylines.

WHERE did Danielle get the lipstick???

Pretty interesting stuff. However I would think there are much better examples of our society's impatience than satisfaction with Lost. MTV, videoes and video games have had a profound effect on my generation (I'm 33). MTV's video style of fast cuts and short clips have influenced TV and movies. People are also used to getting what they want when they want it: Fast Food, the newest electronic gadgets, information on the internet and nearly everyone has a cell phone so they can contact people immediately.

So yeah, I think people are more impatient than they were 20 years ago. But that doesn't mean a TV Show like Lost isn't dragging out plots and storylines.


yeah. i totally agree with you. i'm touching on a variety of subjects...most notable would have to be technology; the interent, tivo, iPod, etc. has made everyone expect a new and better standard. We all expect our punchline to come within a half of minute. What you said about movies, I absolutely agree; being an avid movie fan, it makes me sick when people choose to watch "you got served" over something like Gosford Park or something. The same thing with music, I referred to Wilco's "Yankee Hotel Foxtrot," as it was passed by Warner Bros. because they "didn't get it," and as it surfaced the internet for a year..it became the biggest critical success in the 90s...leaving Warner Bros. brother company (Nonesuch) to sign them back. I thought that was a funny story.

As for Lost...I do think people expect the answers to be presented quicker. I often wonder whether the rabid lost fans would be more angry if the episodes are presented the way they are now, or if they answered most of what we want to know in a matter of 3 episodes. As I said before, I like Lost to be a marathon, not a mad dash to the finish. I, personally, like the fact that they are spreading out the plot. I like big payoffs in the end. I also find it interesting that most of the people angry with Lost, according to my study, are in their teens...which proves what you and I think about my generation being more impatient than the last.

And many of the teens I surveyed watched Lost on DVD. A medium where you can skip the weeks of waiting to see what happened next. I'm sure if they all had a chance to watch season 2 on dvd..at their own pace with no unwanted interruptions, they would enjoy it more.

As for Lost...I do think people expect the answers to be presented quicker. I often wonder whether the rabid lost fans would be more angry if the episodes are presented the way they are now, or if they answered most of what we want to know in a matter of 3 episodes. As I said before, I like Lost to be a marathon, not a mad dash to the finish. I, personally, like the fact that they are spreading out the plot. I like big payoffs in the end. I also find it interesting that most of the people angry with Lost, according to my study, are in their teens...which proves what you and I think about my generation being more impatient than the last.

Digital, I think all the case studies you need are in fact right here on the Lage...

I didn't like this episode very much but it might be the way I watched it. I have a DVR and normally I will start watching it 15-20 minutes late so I can fast forward all the commercials. Today I watched it along with being online with the Live Thread. The show seemed really short like it was all commercials.


*** I can't watch anything that isn't on my tivo either... Hell I can hardly wait for a Hot Pocket to finish in the microwave.:biggrin:

Keep in mind that there is always Choice C in that survey-- the category that I fit into, which is 18-34 yr age range, I am very much enjoying the pace of the show, but I have issues with the way some cheats and cop-outs have been used to drag out the mysteries... not because the truth was not revealed, but because the 'dodge', so to speak, was rather trite and lacked either credibilty and/or creativity.

WHERE did Danielle get the lipstick???

The counter expired, and nothing happened. The funky symbols came up, which had no significance.

It ONLY reset because Locke entered the code again. How can a 1975-era computer posssibly have an impact on global security?

By definition, on "zero" the island should have exploded, or missiles launched, or whatever.

It's a psychological experiment. It's a mind game.

The counter expired, and nothing happened. The funky symbols came up, which had no significance.

It ONLY reset because Locke entered the code again. How can a 1975-era computer posssibly have an impact on global security?

By definition, on "zero" the island should have exploded, or missiles launched, or whatever.

It's a psychological experiment. It's a mind game.

I would tend to agree. The look on Locke's face when it went back to 108 was, IMO, one of a man who feels hoodwinked (much like some of the posters in this thread). I enjoyed it though so I shouldn't really be here...

WHERE did Danielle get the lipstick???

She got it at the Walmart on the other side of the island.

Walmart is everywhere. Walmart can not be stopped. Obey Walmart.

Tree frogs come in the thousands not just one, but since we have to have this utterly absurd storyline, only one frog on this island is chirping. Yeah right. I felt sorry for the guy who plays Hurley. I love Sayid but having this torture session with the "other" be all about Shannon turned me off because I never bought their relationship in the first place. I'm tired of Jack and Locke's squabbles and Sawyer's one-liners and nicknames. And most of all, I'm sick to death of the lack of continuity in these eps. I just knew Sawyer and Charlie's return to the dark side would be dropped by the next episode. They do this every time. I won't be buying the DVD's for this season. I thought Sawyer's line "arent we still friends', then blackmailing Hurley into helping him and then squishing the frog were the writers ways of reminding us of Sawyers 'badness'. And then Sayid's sit down with Charlie for what seems may be another 'deal with the devil' for Charlie was also a reminder.

I dont know, I get the dissapointment with the subplot, but Im not getting the continuity errors. I find the way it was done for Sawyer questionable, but it *was* done.

There's a difference between impatience and frustration. I think I can speak for most of us when I say that we are not so much impatient for answers but are frustrated at the way they are keeping the answers from us. The writers are creating very unrealistic situations for the characters such as never asking questions are having pow-wows about their situation and they are also throwing these people out of character constantly as a result. Also, many of us feel that a lot of the mysteries will never be solved since many have been dropped for so long and have been forgotten. I can wait for the answers but, in the meantime, give me realistic senarios and characters I can relate to and just a tiny bit of plot progression in each episode.
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I thought Sawyer's line "arent we still friends', then blackmailing Hurley into helping him and then squishing the frog were the writers ways of reminding us of Sawyers 'badness'. And then Sayid's sit down with Charlie for what seems may be another 'deal with the devil' for Charlie was also a reminder.

I dont know, I get the dissapointment with the subplot, but Im not getting the continuity errors. I find the way it was done for Sawyer questionable, but it *was* done.

All I got from the Sawyer debacle was some kind of shoutout to his fans like "he's bad, but isn't he cute". The Charlie scene, to me, was setting up the story for next week and why would Sayid tell Charlie anything after what he did. Charlie should be the least trusted one there. Both scenes made no sense to me.

allrighty guys , I'm seriously fed up. I love the show but we still didn't get any answers .. we're not even close to know what can happen if the button is not pushed.
I thought from the preview that the button thing was the minimum we were going to find out , but still nothing ...and now we've 2 week of waiting for no reasons and i'm sure next episode it's gonna be the same way ...seriously i'm fed up :mad:

Me too; it's tough because I got hooked big-time - and I rarely get hooked on current TV series, but the false starts that are spreading like the island's ephemeral sickness have pushed this from must-see TV to picking up the DVDs at some point...

There's a difference between impatience and frustration. I think I can speak for most of us when I say that we are not so much impatient for answers but are frustrated at the way they are keeping the answers from us. The writers are creating very unrealistic situations for the characters such as never asking questions are having pow-wows about their situation and they are also throwing these people out of character constantly as a result. Also, many of us feel that a lot of the mysteries will never be solved since many have been dropped for so long and have been forgotten. I can wait for the answers but, in the meantime, give me realistic senarios and characters I can relate to and just a tiny bit of plot progression in each episode.
<hr> While I did enjoy this episode, allow me the slight hypocrisy of agreeing with this sentiment in a general sense. I do find that the writers are being very obnoxious at times with their teasing and baiting with the information... and I also agree that the writers need to heed their own writing at the end of this episode: Have you forgotten?

But I think the mere inclusion of that sentiment is a nod to the fans to say "Hey, we remember all that stuff, and we're getting to it". Of course, I have no idea if they actually are going to get to it, but at least it's there for now, which is better than it not being there. The cynic in me says that the next new episode will just forget all of this, but the spoiler hound in me knows that's not exactly true, so perhaps that's why I'm more patient about this episode than others, despite sharing their concerns.


All I got from the Sawyer debacle was some kind of shoutout to his fans like "he's bad, but isn't he cute". The Charlie scene, to me, was setting up the story for next week and why would Sayid tell Charlie anything after what he did. Charlie should be the least trusted one there. Both scenes made no sense to me. I found the Charlie interaction to be, at first, just as confusing... But then of course I heard Sayid's dialogue. Sayid remembered that Charlie and Claire had been victimized, and Charlie was, for all intents and purposes, killed by the others (only to be brought back by Jack). Sayid was reaching out to the one person who would share his passion for finally getting to the bottom of who these 'others' are.

In Season one, we had the overall plot-goal of getting into the hatch. By the end of Season 1, this goal had been accomplished (although not really actualized until the beginning of Season 2, I'll admit).

This season, we seem to have the overall plot-goal of discovering the true nature of the others. I feel certain that by the end of this season (or by the very first episode of Season 3), we will have a whole lot of information on the Others and what their story is. Henry Gale is the tip of the iceburg, here, much like the hatch was the key to discovering Dharma.

So we have season-long goals and plot-destinations here. Season 1 - The Hatch. Season 2 - The Others. What's season 3? The monster? Who knows? Something else major, though, you can be sure. It seems that the writers might be addressing on 'major' island mystery per season, while sprinkling in some interesting tidbits (like seeing the monster this season, introducing us to Dharma, finding the Tailies, learning about other bunkers, etc).

Anyway, my point is this - I definitely understand and agree with the sentiment that the 'reveals' have often times been only a cheap tease, and I'm put off by this as well. But this is nothing new to this season. How many times last season did we think we were going to learn what Kate did, only to have the writers move the proverbial carrot on us over and over on that one (even though I really couldn't care less about Kate, their tactics still annoyed me)? How many times are we going to get Locke flashbacks and not learn why he can't walk? How long can they go on?

There has to come a point where they stop teasing us. The writers are treading a very thin line, here... too much teasing and not enough follow-through can lead to resentment.

There's a difference between impatience and frustration. I think I can speak for most of us when I say that we are not so much impatient for answers but are frustrated at the way they are keeping the answers from us. The writers are creating very unrealistic situations for the characters such as never asking questions are having pow-wows about their situation and they are also throwing these people out of character constantly as a result. Also, many of us feel that a lot of the mysteries will never be solved since many have been dropped for so long and have been forgotten. I can wait for the answers but, in the meantime, give me realistic senarios and characters I can relate to and just a tiny bit of plot progression in each episode.
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All I got from the Sawyer debacle was some kind of shoutout to his fans like "he's bad, but isn't he cute". The Charlie scene, to me, was setting up the story for next week and why would Sayid tell Charlie anything after what he did. Charlie should be the least trusted one there. Both scenes made no sense to me.

Thank you for saying what I was thinking. I agree that the writers are creating very unrealistic situations for the character. I really think that I am going to give up. I don't seem to care anymore and that is sad for my part, because I really did like this show. Sawyer showing what a bad person he really is was bad. He took it out on a defenseless creature. I was also wondering about Sawyers hearing. It looked like he and Hurley traveled a long way to find the frog. Sawyer must have good hearing to hear that frog from what appears to be a great distance. Sayid's flashback still didn't answer how he got to Australia? What happened to him after the US troops let him go? I supposed we will get the answer in season 3. By that time I won't even care.

I had high expectations for this episode and I was disappointed I feel like I have been squished like a tree frog:ohwell:

I had high expectations for this episode and I was disappointed I feel like I have been squished like a tree frog:ohwell:

Were your expectations due to the preview from last week? If so, it's not surprising that you were disappointed, since ABC has a habit of spoiling entire episodes in the previews. That's ABC's fault.

Were your expectations due to the preview from last week? If so, it's not surprising that you were disappointed, since ABC has a habit of spoiling entire episodes in the previews. That's ABC's fault.

No, it started when I found out we were having a Sayid episode. I have been completely spoiled for all the episodes since Abandoned and I thought all the November episodes rocked , but I just wasn't feeling this episode.
I usually want to watch episodes over and over, but other than looking at screencaps of the counter symbols I won't be watching this episode again.

Overall the last three eps have been probably my least favorite out of all the shows in season 1 and 2.


Is it me.. or is Lock's character starting to become a servant? I thought the whole point of Lock's character was that he was the wise all knowing one. Now he's just doing what everyone tells him.. LOCK hide this.. LOCK.. Unlock this.. LOCK... Help me do this... Next thing you know.. he might be petting little mice and calling Jack " George "

Sorry Lock fans..

Is there different people writing this show or what..

just the bad points:
the only thing that really pissed me off this episode was the not mentioning the guns issue, like it never happened. i was expecting someone, anyone, to just mention it briefly, but no. and i dont get why.

the treefrog thing was frustrating because it carried on for too long, just pointless. and Hurley's reveal obviously just to shut up commentators on the show. nnnh.:undecide:

on the whole just felt unbalanced, not tight enough, some poor dialogue, but im a long way from giving up.

I just wanted to point out one thing about the Iraquis 'learned to torture from the Americans'. They did show part of a tape of that village being gassed so I think they were trying to show that there was 'enough sin to go around'. No innocents here.

I was really looking forward to this epi...maybe they just showed too much in the preview that this one left me flat. It's a funny thing. I have been huge peace-nik forever, protested the Viet Nam war and believe firmly God should bless the whole world, no exceptions - but for some strange reason it bothered me that Sayid learned to torture from Americans. Maybe I learned something about myself in this epi.

I don't enjoy seeing Sawyer portrayed not just as a manipulator out for himself but a leering sadist and I don't enjoy seeing Sayid robbed of his angsty conflict and deciding that he now has radar that tells him he can spot an enemy by torturing him and feeling no remorse. That's like the way they used to test for witches. They'd bind them and throw them in the river. If they floated and survived, they were witches and were executed. If they sank, they were innocent but dead.

They're fast turning complex characters into one-note, gone over to the dark side caricatures, and I don't like it. It has nothing to do with the lack of answers. The characterizations were depressing and left a bad taste in my mouth (sorta like that ranch dressing at tropical jungle temperature, I would imagine.)

Cardie

I feel like I don't even know who these people are anymore. Why did Sawyer need Hurley to help him so badly that he would apologize for the nicknames? What happend to "sorry don't suit me" Sawyer? Is Hurley a champion tree-frog finder or something? They've established that Sawyer's an a**, but why the unnecessary cruelty? And Aren't there probably a lot more tree frogs out there? Is he planning on killing them all? As for Sayid, I never bought into his deep Shannon love - maybe in time, but I guess they wanted to get that in before they killed her off. And What about Nadia? He asked Charlie if he'd forgotten about being hanged (I think that's correct usage) by the others, but has he forgotten how after he tortured Sawyer he hated himself? I was under the impression he never intended to do it again. I'm really disappointed and confused.

I also find it interesting that most of the people angry with Lost, according to my study, are in their teens...which proves what you and I think about my generation being more impatient than the last.



How does it prove that? Adults have always been more patient than teenagers in every generation. If you're trying to show some historical trend, wouldn't you need some data from people who watched "Lost" thirty years ago?

Anyway, let's not confuse length with quality. I just finished watching "I, Claudius" which covers 80 years of the Roman Empire in 13 one hour episodes. It was excellent. My mother has been watching "All My Children" for thirty-five years. I'm guessing that would be something close to 10,000 hours. Does that make "All My Children" better television than "I, Claudius"? Or maybe she's just more patient than I am?

Just wanted to point out that, in regards to complaints about characters regressing, that TPTB have said that they are doing that on purpose, that they are "resetting" the characters this season...
Ok, so the regression doesn't so much bother me. Again, it's the continuity.

I actually kind of, sort of liked this episode. But my complaints about it are well-documented earlier in this thread. :) I just want more continuity. I think because of the weird Sayid/Charlie scene at the end that was there as a clear lead-in to the next episode, we'll definitely have good continuity from this episode to the next.

I feel like I don't even know who these people are anymore.

You summed that up in once sentence.. I feel the same exact way. The character's are not playing themselves... is it a case of bad writing?

I also find it interesting that most of the people angry with Lost, according to my study, are in their teens...

I hate to dampen your study, but I am an older woman well past my teens and I am frustrated with the pace of the show. While I don't want all of the mysteries answered, I certainly do not want a mystery answered with another one.

I feel like I don't even know who these people are anymore.

You're not the only one.

Just wanted to add... I'm also a woman well out of my teens (and twenties). Slow and steady progress is fine with me, we're just, IMO, severely lacking in progress period and are now apparently regressing.

I want a few answers during sweeps , when they are suppose to put out their best episodes to draw the highest ratings. I don't think that is too much to ask.:rolleyes:

Note that this episode was written by the two showrunners, so it isn't like some new, inexperienced writers don't quite get the characters or remember the continuity.

The problem for me with the sudden character regressions is that they aren't sufficiently motivated. If what happened to Claire and Charlie left more than the victims with apparent amnesia about how dangerous the Others can be, I'm not convinced that the Others' bombing of the raft and taking Walt would make people not directly involved (Sayid, Charlie) regress to their pre-Island selves. So I understand why Sawyer has gone off the deep end and why Michael charged off into the jungle after his son, but it now seems like they are going to find excuses to turn everyone savage arbitrarily with no understandable stimulus.

Cardie

That's how I'm feeling right now - even wish I could lower my vote in the poll.
Well, for the first time in a while, you won't see me dissing the episode in this thread. I loved it.

Yes, the countdown was a tease, but it gave up a little info, even if it wasn't entirely clear what it was. And the introduction of Henry Gale at least opens up the door to what could be a wealth of information. No, we didn't get any info tonight, but like I've said in past "Eh, could have been better" threads, it's not necessarily answers that I look for, just progress. And the introduction of Henry Gale is most certainly progress.

I guess the tables have turned huh guys? :)
But I have to admit I pretty much feel the same way as Vertical does (again), although 'loved it' is probably a bit too much as far as I'm concerned.

We didn't get a lot of answers, but that's not what I'm looking for (at least not necessarily). I want the mystery elements to be adressed and that's what happened last night. But I do agree that there were a lot of things that weren't all that great: the frogcatching subplot, the less than spectacular 'wow that's strange, there's another pre-island connection between two characters' moment, the seemingly calm camp after the major Sawyer-coup last week and not to mention the resetting of the clock after it had reached zero. But after the last two episodes this one was like a breath of fresh air (at least to me it was).

Usually I seriously dislike the comment I'm about to throw at you (mostly made by Lost apologists) but for the first time in a while what I saw actually did get me excited about the coming episodes. With the arrival of Henry Gale they've set up something which will be hard to ignore in the episodes to come. But the writers have surprised me before with the amount of information and events that can be forgotten within a timeperiod of aproximately a day (one episode), so I guess we'll just have to wait and see (and hope that they won't disappoint us again).

It was okay. To be honest, the most interesting things about this episode were Sayid's flashback, his breakdown over Shannon's death (it's interesting that he has shifted the blame from Ana to the Others) and the whole Jack/Locke confrontation over getting through to Sayid.

Yes, I had recognized Kate's stepdad. Frankly, I think the man comes off as a little too perfect. I'm beginning to understand why Diane had left him.

Locke was peeved that Jack didn't approach him about the army? Why would he think that?

The whole Sawyer/Hurley hunt over a tree frog was a bore. And Sawyer managed to verify his position on the top of my Sh*theel List.

It’s quite obvious that Jack is not quite ready to be considered as a war leader. Only I don’t consider this a reason to be critical of him. Of course he’s not ready. He has no experience in such a thing. In fact, not one of the Lostaways do . . . including Sayid, who apprently had spent the entire First Gulf War serving as a Communications officer. If a conflict with the Others is on the horizon, they will all have to learn.

Henry Gale . . . wasn’t that the name of Dorothy’s uncle in THE WIZARD OF OZ?

Note that this episode was written by the two showrunners, so it isn't like some new, inexperienced writers don't quite get the characters or remember the continuity.

The problem for me with the sudden character regressions is that they aren't sufficiently motivated. If what happened to Claire and Charlie left more than the victims with apparent amnesia about how dangerous the Others can be, I'm not convinced that the Others' bombing of the raft and taking Walt would make people not directly involved (Sayid, Charlie) regress to their pre-Island selves. So I understand why Sawyer has gone off the deep end and why Michael charged off into the jungle after his son, but it now seems like they are going to find excuses to turn everyone savage arbitrarily with no understandable stimulus.

Cardie

I made this point on another thread, so I'm being a little redundant.

It seems to me that the island somehow exploits the worst characteristics in each of the Losties. Hurley's eating, Sayid as torture-man, Sawyer as sociopath & con artist, Jack as a control freak, Locke as a succer, Charlie's drug addiction, etc. Tends to make me think they are being played.

As for the torture controversy, this show was heavy into themes of conflicts between being at war and being a decent human being. I think that was the point of the Americans teaching Sayid to torture. Desperation can lead people to do things they don't think themselves capable of.

And, yes, Henry Gale was Dorothy's uncle in the Wizard of Oz. The Wizard was from Minnesota. He crashed in Oz while piloting his balloon. I think this tale was a pretty easy tip-off to the viewing audience that this dude is indeed an "Other". He totally pulled this story out of his butt while Sayid was grilling him.

I just watched it again and while I liked the capture of the stranger and the end scene of Charlie and Sayid on the beach..that was about all. The in fighting between Locke and Jack is getting old. The button thing was boring (although the pics on the 'slot' machine were interesting). I knew the thing wasn't going to 'blow up the island' or whatever at this point in the season.

I think for me to like something I have to 'feel' something even if its negative. I "felt' something during F+W. It wasn't all positive..I got mad at a couple of the chacters. Last week I felt revulsion at Sawyer's turnabout and this week I felt...not much of anything.

Or maybe its not that at all. I just feel..meh.

Don't get me wrong. The story is very important although I'm not in the 'They must show me something new every week/they must not show just character development' camp. Character only eppies are fine with me. Mystery only eppies are fine with me. I'm not picky in that way.

I am interested in the way the story is headed but many more episodes like this and I might wait for the DVD.

Watch Wizard of Oz...Henry Gale was Dorothy's uncle's name, the Wizard had a balloon...this guy is an OTHER.

I can imagine next week's eppie ending like this: Sayid tortures Henry Gale, his tounge loosens and right in the moment he opens his mouth to tell some true things for a change, Charlie shoots him with one of Sawyer's guns...


No one will ask Charlie why...it will be forgotten by the next episode (as always). This is getting annoying. This was the first episode I did not want to watch...


I am losing interest in this show, and I don't think that I am the only one.


Sad.

The more I think about it..the less and less I like this episode but the thing is I can't get 'passionate' in my dislike!


It worries me that you say this, elfdream. Going back a year now, you are my barometer of perspective when it comes to Lost. But what you are describing is simply a lack of interest and general numbing to Lost.

To a certain extent it takes a great deal of interest (or something that's at least thought provoking) to rile someone up to the point where they passionately dislike something and are able to articulate it. It's that disappointment in something you are very interested in that usually sparks the very negative reaction.

Obviously, I felt that, particularly toward the end of last season (and including the finale) and was not shy or lacking for words to describe my extreme displeasure. Last night, my reaction was simply, "meh, another filler episode". (And my wife who used to breathlessly watch each episode with me, was in the living room watching a Law & Order rerun.)

I feel very much like I did toward the end of the third season of Alias. Obviously, I am going to stick through the finale and see if there's a satisfactory pay-off to this season of seemingly endless filler, but my interest level just seems to decrease little by little each episode, as I continue to lose faith in the creative team behind the show.

Today I watched it along with being online with the Live Thread. The show seemed really short like it was all commercials.



OK so I'm not the only one who felt it was rushed. I don't know what it was about the episode. It seemed to skip over some things, like the CIA talking to Sayid and then Sayid doing the torture. That was a bit quick. I'm sure we were supposed to infer that there were torture lessons, and the revelation of more relatives killed by Tariq's sarin tests, but it seemed rushed. Here's the box... go to it son!

Lyta

And although this episode gave us 'very little' progress, it at least did give us some progress, unlike F+W and TLC. In this episode we finally see Danielle again (brief though it was), we have the capture of a potential other, who also holds the potential for a ton of information, and we see that yes, in fact, something does happen when the clock hits zero. We don't know exactly what, yet, but we heard large things moving around in the hatch, and we see some strange symbols (which you can bet your arse will come back into play, unlike the tree frog or Kate's tiny airplane). So clearly we're being told that Jack is wrong, something will happen. And black and red colors seem to be implying it's not a good thing. My guess is they'll have to find Desmond again to figure out what the heck those symbols might mean. .

I'm very surprised to see this reaction in you too, Vert.

Didn't Ethan hold the potential for a ton of information before Charlie and Claire both got spontaneous amnesia and Charlie killed him?

Didn't Goodwin hold the potential for a ton of information before talking in riddles during a single, brief conversation with Ana-Lucia before she killed him?

Didn't Mr. Friendly hold the potential for a ton of information when he sat down with Jack for a "talk", only to simply warn the Losties to stay away before disappearing back into the jungle?

The fact is, we have no idea if Gale will simply be ignored for a couple of episodes before escaping, disappearing or dying. In fact, given the track record of TPTB, it's much more likely that Gale will escape or die than actually provide the Lostaways (and by extension the show's viewers) any information.

"Potential" for information doesn't cut it. So far, Gale is just more filler.

The symbols, OTOH, might genuinely reflect some new tidbit of information, but the information is so abstract and disconnected from any previous information or clues so as to render it nearly meaningless. It's impact is also lessened by the fact that this is now the second time the clock has counted down past zero without consequence. In fact, the clock counting down past zero is now simply another delay tactic for TPTB akin to the above examples of killing or disappearing the Others before they can provide information.

For progress to truly have been made with regard to the clock and countdown, we need to have: (a) see what happens when the button isn't pushed; or (b) learn what happens when the button isn't pushed by information provided by the Others or another Dharma film (which would then call into question the truth of the information and whether pr not the Lostways risk believing it or not believing it).

So, really last night there was no progress. Just more filler. We know nothing more (except the hieroglyphic symbols which have no inherent meaning) after this episode than we did before it. That's the epitome of filler.
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The point is, this episode (once again) gave us very little progress and a lot of filler and repeating info.

Did we need the tree frog subplot? No. And please don't anyone say that damn tree frog is going to come back later and "mean something". Sawyer stealing the guns was swept under the rug and Hurley is helping him hunt a down tree frog? Please..

I thought this was just a laughable sub-plot. Not only did the sub-plot boil down to my prediction that the status quo would be maintained and Sawyer would simply be the one now not using the guns, but the only person who seemed willing to challenge Sawyer on his actions was a tree frog. LOL!

Which, BTW, was a near beat-by-beat rehash of Sawyer's excursion into the jungle with Kate to track down that wild board that had been bothering. Please, indeed.
<hr>
Overall the last three eps have been probably my least favorite out of all the shows in season 1 and 2.

Is it me.. or is Lock's character starting to become a servant? I thought the whole point of Lock's character was that he was the wise all knowing one. Now he's just doing what everyone tells him...

It's not just you. First Sawyer easily manipulates him, and then so does Sayid, and then Jack backed him down. Locke is devolving into that pathetic push-over who worked at the box factory. Next thing you know he'll be fetching those virgin Mary statues on Charlie's command.

And yes, the last three episodes have been the equivalent of a train wreck where the train never actually moves. February sweeps was a disaster for this show in terms of the insignificance of each episode and it's easy dismissal as stand-alone, stagnant, evasive, filler.

I feel kind of eh about this episode too. Why?

The tree frog. I have to agree with most of the posters. Pretty pointless. Sawyer's A double S holic. Can't help himself. Got that. And as Hurley said, we know he's fat. I like hearing Hurley say "dude". Other than that, I really didn't get it.

The forgetting about the guns. I can understand not dwelling on it, but a mention would be better. "How are we getting the guns back?", "Danielle, have you found any guns buried while sneaking around in the forest?" Something! I can't believe they'd just give up for a full ep.

The red and black symbols. Did Locke get the numbers in on time or didn't he? His hands were just below where you could see them. You don't know. That's frustrating.

Never solving a decent mystery (why Hurley hasn't lost weight doesn't count). If you want to see a series with an arc that reveals mysteries in a satisfying manner, watch Bablyon5 (which Mira Furlan was in). The story was begun with a 5 year arc and there were all manners of mysteries, but you got mysteries solved along the way, big and small. Lost sometimes just irritates me. I've seen it handled so much better.

Where I disagree:

Character motivations made sense to me:

Sayid is freaked out by Shannon's death. He blames they others for Shannon's demise. This satifies me as to why he went from I'll never torture again to "I felt no guilt". He has also decided the situation they are in is war. Therefore he feels justified.

Sawyer being a leering sadist. (The frog squishing was ridiculous, though). Someone posted last week that his reversion to con artist was out of nowhere. I don't think so. There was a slow build toward it since he regained consciousness. He was increasingly uncomfortable with the attention he was getting, people being glad to see him alive unnerved him. By conning them out of the guns, he went back to his comfort zone. People hating him. If he deliberately does something nasty he's in control. If he tries to be a better person and fails and people get angry, then he's gotten vunerable and then lost control. To Sawyer's twisted logic, that's much worse.

Sayid and Charlie's conversation. Charlie was nearly killed. He understands what's at stake. Charlie also went to extremes to protect Claire. Who else would Sayid have this conversation with? Charlie is also a safe character to talk to because he is an outcast. It's easy to confess to a lack of guilt to someone who is a non-person at the moment. Ironically, the only other person who would get it would be Ana Lucia.

But, overall, this episode left me kind of blah. I usually rewatch, and I might have to give this one a pass.

Lyta

I'm a big fan of Lost since the beginning but more and more they're pushing the characters and distorting what made them interesting in the first place.

Some of the changes I can agree wit, like Charlie's descent (though I don't think he would have done what he did to Sun), but Jack and Locke, two of the best characters in the show, have been all over the place, Sawyer too, to a lesser extent.

What made Jack interesting was that he wasn't an 'GI Joe' type, he was head strong but he was about what was best for everyone. The old Jack would have known that this new guy could have been an 'Other' and that what Sayid did was necessary. He and Locke should be agreeing on a lot more despite coming from different places. One episode Jack wants to start a war against the Others, the next he can't even bring himself to think that this stranger could be a threat.

I wish all the characters were as consistent as Sayid, his journey through the series has been completely solid, his arc has been consistent with his character. Charlie and Hurley's are much the same and many of the lesser characters have remained 'true', it's just the main characters Locke, Jack, Kate and Sawyer who seem to be all over the place or completely flatlined (Kate).

I also wish there was more consistency between episodes lately. I can't believe for a second that the issue of the guns would be let lie. They are under a greater threat now than ever and they just want to 'forget' about the guns?!?! Makes absolutely no sense. At the end of last week's episode I was wishing for Sayid or Locke to walk up to Sawyer take the gun of him and put him down. At least they'd have one gun then. Ignoring the issue is completely ridiculous, I realise this is a TV show but they're treading a fine line.

I just have one thing to say... This episode made me hate (for lack of better word) Sawyer, last one shook me up, he is now rated as obsessive, compulsive, and all around downright mean guy. My reason? He squished a frog with his bare hands, because it was makeing noise...I've learned you can't expect Sawyer to be in any amount "good" for a lenth of time. He thrusts your trust away after he feels too "loved". I can't say I can like him now that I know he will kill in cold blood.

allrighty guys , I'm seriously fed up. I love the show but we still didn't get any answers .. we're not even close to know what can happen if the button is not pushed.
I thought from the preview that the button thing was the minimum we were going to find out , but still nothing ...and now we've 2 week of waiting for no reasons and i'm sure next episode it's gonna be the same way ...seriously i'm fed up :mad:
I don't know what all the belly aching is all about! Man, if there was a quick solution to this series, it would be a "movie of the week" (yuck) or a mini-series (loved Shogun, only one) and, although I don't think the public will accept another Gilligan's Island, (Lord, that would not be accepted by me), it HAS to last a bit longer so these diversions are necessary. Has anyone out there read a mystery novel where everything is laid out at the beginning? (I'm not talking about Columbo, that's out of the ordinary...on many levels) Usually the clues are there for the reader to recognize and absorb but the outcome is not obvious until the very end (or very few would be interested in that genre) so why don't we patiently wait for the crumbs...uh...sorry, clues...ahem...the writers are giving us and read the various boards for the many, many theories. Sometimes the theories (especially the funny ones) are better than the actual story. I'm still waiting for Vincent to have a flashback to a juicy bone he was given in Australia or something like that. Sorry, had to interject that bit...:grin:

I wonder what season it will be before someone pulls back the curtain to reveal who the wizard of Oz is on this island...

Well, since you mention it.....Henry Gale is the name of Dorthy Gale's Uncle in The Wizard of Oz.

Does anyone know what the heiroglyphics that appeared when they didn't type in the code said???? I really want to know. I've tried to figure it out...but the only letter I could get was an A.


:blowup:

Does anyone know what the heiroglyphics that appeared when they didn't type in the code said????




Roughly translately it said, "We're going to reveal as little as possible and milk this cash cow for all it's worth before leaving the audience feeling empty and unsatisfied."

Again, that's just roughly translated.

Does anyone know what the heiroglyphics that appeared when they didn't type in the code said???? I really want to know. I've tried to figure it out...but the only letter I could get was an A.


:blowup:
It means "spend the next 2 years deciphering the symbols and then we'll tell you that the symbols don't mean a thing". No one should waste their time with this. It will be like the numbers.:rolleyes:

It means "spend the next 2 years deciphering the symbols and then we'll tell you that the symbols don't mean a thing". No one should waste their time with this. It will be like the numbers.:rolleyes:
I think you're right. I saw a few screencaps , but I'm not going to obsess like I would have in the past. The past being November :laughing:

I'm thinking I'll feel better about the episode as long as the next one is good and flows smoothly from this episode. Then I won't feel like this one was filler, but just set up. I don't like getting a set up episode during Sweeps, but I'm forgiving. :rolleyes:

I think the dissapointment was bigger because of the Preview for this one, plus the fact that Damon and Carlton wrote this one.

I'm feeling better about this one the day after... heh.

I'm a big fan of Lost since the beginning but more and more they're pushing the characters and distorting what made them interesting in the first place.

Some of the changes I can agree wit, like Charlie's descent (though I don't think he would have done what he did to Sun), but Jack and Locke, two of the best characters in the show, have been all over the place, Sawyer too, to a lesser extent.

What made Jack interesting was that he wasn't an 'GI Joe' type, he was head strong but he was about what was best for everyone. The old Jack would have known that this new guy could have been an 'Other' and that what Sayid did was necessary. He and Locke should be agreeing on a lot more despite coming from different places. One episode Jack wants to start a war against the Others, the next he can't even bring himself to think that this stranger could be a threat.

I wish all the characters were as consistent as Sayid, his journey through the series has been completely solid, his arc has been consistent with his character. Charlie and Hurley's are much the same and many of the lesser characters have remained 'true', it's just the main characters Locke, Jack, Kate and Sawyer who seem to be all over the place or completely flat lined (Kate).

I also wish there was more consistency between episodes lately. I can't believe for a second that the issue of the guns would be let lie. They are under a greater threat now than ever and they just want to 'forget' about the guns?!?! Makes absolutely no sense. At the end of last week's episode I was wishing for Sayid or Locke to walk up to Sawyer take the gun of him and put him down. At least they'd have one gun then. Ignoring the issue is completely ridiculous, I realize this is a TV show but they're treading a fine line.


I agree with most of what you said. I do think the characters have been a little all over the place as of lately. Jack wants and army, Jack wants guns to thwart danger, danger comes and Jack turns into some sort of Others Activist? He was more interesting when he was seeing his Dad. Did I miss something or did he just give up on what all that meant? My father is dead too, I am pretty sure that if I saw my dead father and followed him around a jungle, I would not forget about that tomorrow, next week or next month. I don't like the writing of Jack right now. No mystery.

Locke is losing his mysterious edge and turning more "Gumby-ish" for a better lack of a word. Locke is in charge of the button, he sets up a rotating schedule, there are how many people there now? Surely at least 1/2 of them could push a button while he puts together a small group to do more searching, hunting and discovery. That was what made him interesting, his quests and taking us (the fans) with him. I don't care if he finds something every week or not, but good grief get off the bed guy. Don't like how they are writing Locke right now. No mystery.

And the squabbling is definitely old between those two. Old Jack and Locke wouldn't be fussing like two old married people.

Sawyer, well all I can say is, we got it all ready, he's an a**. It's part of his nature and part of why some of us love to hate him, yet can't get enough of him. The frog thing was not necessary and not even believable. Come on, we are expected to believe in that vast jungle of trees, brush, large and small plants, flowers, vines and every other growing, winding mass of green that he and Hurley could spot a lowly little frog. Pallleeaassssse! I live in the country and I am not buying that for one minute. Now if it was a water dwelling frog, and he found a small puddle of water by following the sound and then found the puddle, and then the frog maybe, just maybe I could have bought that one. Total waste of writing and film. Love Sawyer and yet totally hated this scene. Filler.

Anna Lucia, not buying that, yes sir, right away sir, response from her for a second. What now she is suddenly taking orders and not asking any questions?

Kate - as stated above, flat lined.

Eko- umm well where was he. I would rather have had him find Hurley eating while searching for the guns. Would have made more sense.

The whole gun issue, well I don't think everyone, all 40 something people would just "let it lie" either. Absurd!

Jin walking the beach alone to go fishing. Ummmm No. Either he would be by Sun's side or she would be by his not knowing who hurt her or why. Just didn't feel right.

Continuity is definitely a huge issue right now for me with this show. Way too many beginnings with nothing moving into something believable for the island and/or the characters, mainly the latter. Epi to epi we are just left baffled and confused by the losties actions, or should I say non-reactive attitudes. I know some think that the show is progressing, well I guess on some level it is, but not as a whole. I know that they can't tell us answers to all the mysteries. I don't want them to. Just give an epi or two that gives us some realistic interaction and gives some realistic continuity from one to the next.

I have never felt this way until now, hope it doesn't last. Sure hope it gets better next epi if not, I may get over my Lost needs this summer and not "need" another season. I haven't given up yet, but I would be lying if I said I wasn't on the fence now. As a mother of 5 this is my one and only luxury. Please don't lose "IT" guys. You know the "IT" that has made this show so great.

Edited for grammer

Note that this episode was written by the two showrunners, so it isn't like some new, inexperienced writers don't quite get the characters or remember the continuity.

The problem for me with the sudden character regressions is that they aren't sufficiently motivated. If what happened to Claire and Charlie left more than the victims with apparent amnesia about how dangerous the Others can be, I'm not convinced that the Others' bombing of the raft and taking Walt would make people not directly involved (Sayid, Charlie) regress to their pre-Island selves. So I understand why Sawyer has gone off the deep end and why Michael charged off into the jungle after his son, but it now seems like they are going to find excuses to turn everyone savage arbitrarily with no understandable stimulus.

Cardie

Caride, I have to disagree on the character motivations. Whether you could "buy into" the Sayid-Shannon romance angle it did come to fruition. In the Long Con his dismissive attitude toward Hurley signaled to me that he was still teetering emotionally and his breakdown mid-torture in front of Gale kind of confirmed that as well.

Regarding Charlie I think the writer's put his addiction into play early on because they knew it would allow to write a broader character, one capable of extremes. That being said I think they do lean on his "addict" behavior too often but it isn't completely unwarranted. Having had a lot of experience with people coping with addiction I liken the island as a "detox" location for Charlie. Before his discovery of the drug plane his supply was limited and the unfamiliar environment forced a temporary change in his attitudes toward himself and his dependency. Despite having a kicked the habit and having a doctor nearby, John Locke to me isn't an ideal counselor or a "sponsor" if you get my drift. So essentially Charlie has dealt with the "how" of getting clean but is nowhere close to understanding the "why" he uses in the first place. That's why I don't really find it that surprising that he would stash those virgin Mary statues. It's not for a physical "fix" but a mental one... like a opiate security blanket. Anyway, sorry for turning this into a recovery discussion. Not my intention.

I think he is kind of representative of a lot of people on the island in that they don't understand why all these things are happening. Initially, for some, it presented a fresh start or clean slate. Over time though they are being presented with confrontations and difficult decisions that correlate to their pre-island life. Which again makes me lean toward the whole psych experiment gone wrong thing.:biggrin: :cool:

She got it at the Walmart on the other side of the island.

Walmart is everywhere. Walmart can not be stopped. Obey Walmart.
You rock, colin72.
<hr>

I'm getting frustrated because all the characters are getting meaner and right now it's hard to find someone to like. The past several epis have been very violent and relentless and there's been a real lack of humor or levity to break up the tension. My husband thinks it is leading up to something and I hope that's the case, because I feel it wearing on me a bit as a viewer. I spoke with a friend last night and he said he was getting tired of all these great characters becoming such a**holes, and that the show was getting harder and harder for him to watch. I'm still a big fan but I could see his point.

Sawyer was kind of fun before but now he's just disgusting. VERY tired of Locke and Jack bickering.

I agree that some mysteries need to be solved along the way to keep your interest in the show fresh, and that hasn't been happening. Watching the preview last week then seeing the actual episode was a bit of a letdown.

Hey, give credit where credit's due, he stole the Walmart joke from me at the last "could've been better" thread :grin: Colin, you sneaky ******* (wow even that word is censored :))! hehehe




**Mod edited ~ circumventing the language filter.**

Oops, sorry sinkingship. I didn't know your joke was stolen!

"Always two there are - a master and an apprentice..."

I want a few answers during sweeps , when they are suppose to put out their best episodes to draw the highest ratings. I don't think that is too much to ask.:rolleyes:

No I also don't think it's too much to ask.

I'm very surprised to see this reaction in you too, Vert.

Didn't Ethan hold the potential for a ton of information before Charlie and Claire both got spontaneous amnesia and Charlie killed him?

Didn't Goodwin hold the potential for a ton of information before talking in riddles during a single, brief conversation with Ana-Lucia before she killed him?

Didn't Mr. Friendly hold the potential for a ton of information when he sat down with Jack for a "talk", only to simply warn the Losties to stay away before disappearing back into the jungle?

The fact is, we have no idea if Gale will simply be ignored for a couple of episodes before escaping, disappearing or dying. In fact, given the track record of TPTB, it's much more likely that Gale will escape or die than actually provide the Lostaways (and by extension the show's viewers) any information.

"Potential" for information doesn't cut it. So far, Gale is just more filler. This is completely fair, and I'd say it's a totally justified reaction. The incidents you mention certainly haven't bought any credibility for the writers in terms of believing that they'll deliver on potential 'informants'. So I can definitely sympathize with you, as you're absolutely correct, their track record is terrible. But there's reason to believe that Henry Gale will be different... Mild spoiler: He's been confirmed to be in at least 6 more episodes, and the latest podcast essentially says that he will be giving up a lot of information... Of course, it's entirely possible that's all simply misinformation.

If it plays out as it has in the past, and as you fear, I will be right beside you in voicing extreme displeasure at yet another cop-out. But as of now, and thanks largely in part to some semi-spoilers, I'm feeling OK about it. I'm not sure I'd have had the same reaction to the episode without having read what I did. So perhaps that explains our differing reactions.

The symbols, OTOH, might genuinely reflect some new tidbit of information, but the information is so abstract and disconnected from any previous information or clues so as to render it nearly meaningless. It's impact is also lessened by the fact that this is now the second time the clock has counted down past zero without consequence. In fact, the clock counting down past zero is now simply another delay tactic for TPTB akin to the above examples of killing or disappearing the Others before they can provide information.

For progress to truly have been made with regard to the clock and countdown, we need to have: (a) see what happens when the button isn't pushed; or (b) learn what happens when the button isn't pushed by information provided by the Others or another Dharma film (which would then call into question the truth of the information and whether pr not the Lostways risk believing it or not believing it). Again, I agree with this sentiment. The whole countdown has been cheapend twice by 'last second' and 'a few seconds after the last second' saves. It completely undercuts the tension of the countdown, and seems to be the equivalent of crying wolf. I'm not sure that anyone would believe them if they showed the clock going down to zero in a preview again, and they've almost blown this as a way to end the season. They may have deflated this one so much that it won't be any sort of cliff-hanger if the season ends with the clock hitting zero, because everyone will be thinking "Yeah, but there will be some way to undo it, or reverse it, or save it at the last second" ... so I'm with you there.

So, really last night there was no progress. Just more filler. We know nothing more (except the hieroglyphic symbols which have no inherent meaning) after this episode than we did before it. That's the epitome of filler. Well, we know that something would have actually happened had Locke not been there to 'save' things. Something was happening, as was evidenced by the sounds. So we do know more than we did. I think it's also fairly safe to say that we know that Henry is an other. Sayid was right - if he'd buried the woman he loved, he would remember how deep, or if he used a shovel or not.

We also know that Hurley has a secret stash of food, but I don't count that as new or important information. I chalk that one up in the "who really cares" column.

I thought this was just a laughable sub-plot. Not only did the sub-plot boil down to my prediction that the status quo would be maintained and Sawyer would simply be the one now not using the guns, but the only person who seemed willing to challenge Sawyer on his actions was a tree frog. LOL! It was laughable. Terrible, terrible side-plot. No argument there.

Oops, sorry sinkingship. I didn't know your joke was stolen!

"Always two there are - a master and an apprentice..."

Well I wouldn't go that far :) He sure as hell outranks me in the witty retort department.

Hey, give credit where credit's due, he stole the Walmart joke from me at the last "could've been better" thread :grin: Colin, you sneaky bas-tard (wow even that word is censored :))! hehehe
I thought it was my joke! But just watch, you guys!! They're going to write it into the script as a nod to us. I'm sure of it!!!:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

I'm sure the Others all had fake stories to tell, in case any of them got caught. I'm sure the whole story was memorized.

I just realized what's going to happen. Bernard goes for a walk and finds a Wal-Mart. With a big sale on. And he comes running back to tell everybody but Charlie shoots him before he has a chance to say anything.:biggrin:
(Credit goes to Colin for the Wal-Mart idea)

I just realized what's going to happen. Bernard goes for a walk, finds a Wal-Mart, and comes running back to tell everybody. But Charlie shoots him before he has a chance to say anything.:biggrin: LOL! Maybe he'll frame Locke.

LOL! Maybe he'll frame Locke.
And then Locke has to face the Wrath of Rose. You think Sayid's bad, wait'll you see what Rose is capable of!!!

Caride, I have to disagree on the character motivations. Whether you could "buy into" the Sayid-Shannon romance angle it did come to fruition. In the Long Con his dismissive attitude toward Hurley signaled to me that he was still teetering emotionally and his breakdown mid-torture in front of Gale kind of confirmed that as well.



I think you misunderstand my objection. I have no problem with Sayid not having gotten over Shannon's death and losing it when he is questioning a possible Other who--to Sayid--has cheapened the idea of losing one you love by trying to bluff his way out of not remembering any of the details of how he buried her.

But none of this necessarily had to trigger an immediate response to seeing a captured man that he needed to torture him, and to conspire with Locke to keep Jack from stopping him. Sayid has hated himself for being all too easily manipulated into torture and betrayal as much as Sawyer hates himself for being a con man. But now, in the last scene, Sayid is all cool with torturing and killing Others for atrocities they committed a couple of months ago on the island that didn't seem to bother him very much at the time.

I suppose Sayid can't let himself hate Ana-Lucia for killing Shannon, since it was an accident, so he projects his anger onto the Others whose whispers, abductions and visions caused Shannon to rush into Ana's sights and Ana to have a hair trigger response. But it's a stretch and a connivance we didn't need. Sayid was the one person on the island who was calm and thoughtful, who didn't take sides, and who counseled reason. Now he's gone just as irrational as the rest of them.

And, concerning the hieroglyphics, someone on another board who claims to have a reliable dictionary of ancient Egyptian says that the hieroglyphs spell out the word that translates as "to die."

Cardie

Wonder what's such a big secret that Henry couldn't just tell the truth? Are the Others somehow brainwashed into not giving any information?

If I'd been him, hell yes I'd have told everything!

Wonder what's such a big secret that Henry couldn't just tell the truth? Are the Others somehow brainwashed into not giving any information?

If I'd been him, hell yes I'd have told everything!
I wondered about that,too. It seems unusual that someone wouldn't make a deal with them pretty quickly. Last season, I would have thoought this was a clue but this season, I wonder if the writers just didn't think of it.

Well, for the first time in a while, you won't see me dissing the episode in this thread. I loved it.

Yes, the countdown was a tease, but it gave up a little info, even if it wasn't entirely clear what it was. And the introduction of Henry Gale at least opens up the door to what could be a wealth of information. No, we didn't get any info tonight, but like I've said in past "Eh, could have been better" threads, it's not necessarily answers that I look for, just progress. And the introduction of Henry Gale is most certainly progress.

I'm not sure what to make of the Sawyer/Hurley side-plot, outside of the writers just re-enforcing that he is cruel even when he doesn't need to be which is directly juxtaposed to Hurley, who is kind even when he doesn't need to be. And maybe that's all it was.
Food for thought about Sawyer, Hurley and the tree frog. Bear in mind that the frog was alone. A sole survivor if you will at the mercy of an unknown force. Sawyer crushing that frog is symbolic of all the plane crash survivors and how they too are at the mercy of an unknown force. Each character has represented through their stories how each is lost in the world - and have been hurt as a result.

Now if you really want to ponder a question, think on this. All the known survivors of flight 815 have been connected to each other in some way either in the physical presence or by television, etc PRIOR to the crash. All that is except Michael and his son. What's going on with that?

Of course, it's entirely possible that's all simply misinformation.


To me this just doesn't cut it, and it does not remove what I believe to be the accurate categorization of One of Them as a filler episode.

If the only way to know that a particular story element is actually a clue or progression of an island mystery is because of spoilers available through a media outlet, as opposed to actual content in an actual episode, it's still filler. Maybe retroactively we can look back and say "Gale was key for plot progression" if it indeed turns out to be that way, but for now he's just filler (and so is last night's episode). And I say that as someone who reads spoilers, btw!


Well, we know that something would have actually happened had Locke not been there to 'save' things. Something was happening, as was evidenced by the sounds. So we do know more than we did. I think it's also fairly safe to say that we know that Henry is an other. Sayid was right - if he'd buried the woman he loved, he would remember how deep, or if he used a shovel or not.
.

I totally disagree on both counts. First we have absolutely no idea or factual evidence that Gale is an "Other". Intuition doesn't cut it.

Second, I absolutely disagree that "something was happening". We saw nothing. As far as we know the noises were merely another layer of some psychological experiment to convince the Hatch's occupant to keep pushing the button. Simply, those "powering up" noises could merely have been another scare tactic.

Like I said: Filler.

Well, we know that something would have actually happened had Locke not been there to 'save' things. Something was happening, as was evidenced by the sounds. So we do know more than we did.




Yeah, we know more than we did but I wouldn't call what do know much progress or information.

Just because "something was happening" doesn't mean I'm going to get all excited.

Did anyone think NOTHING was going to happen?

Did anyone think the clock was going to hit zero, nothing happens and so that was it for the clock and button storyline?

One viewer's interesting bit of information is another viewer's 'so what'?

I don't know how many times I've seen posts by people who list 'new' things they learned from an episode that they are geuninely interested in only to get a 'big deal' from someone else. And vice versa.

I know this will come out as a du-uh moment but we are all watching for different reasons and not all the same things will be important to everyone and some of us just aren't going to find a lot of common ground.

One viewer's interesting bit of information is another viewer's 'so what'?

I don't know how many times I've seen posts by people who list 'new' things they learned from an episode that they are geuninely interested in only to get a 'big deal' from someone else. And vice versa.

I know this will come out as a du-uh moment but we are all watching for different reasons and not all the same things will be important to everyone and some of us just aren't going to find a lot of common ground.



So what?



:cool:

You rock, colin72.
<hr>

I'm getting frustrated because all the characters are getting meaner and right now it's hard to find someone to like. The past several epis have been very violent and relentless and there's been a real lack of humor or levity to break up the tension. My husband thinks it is leading up to something and I hope that's the case, because I feel it wearing on me a bit as a viewer. I spoke with a friend last night and he said he was getting tired of all these great characters becoming such a**holes, and that the show was getting harder and harder for him to watch. I'm still a big fan but I could see his point.

Sawyer was kind of fun before but now he's just disgusting. VERY tired of Locke and Jack bickering.

I agree that some mysteries need to be solved along the way to keep your interest in the show fresh, and that hasn't been happening. Watching the preview last week then seeing the actual episode was a bit of a letdown.

The characters are getting meaner. I agree it is hard to find someone to really like. I used to like Sawyer, Sayid, Jack and Locke, and find that I am having a hard time liking all of them lately. The Jack/Locke bickering has to stop. They are on an island with ALL sorts of dangers, instead of fighting amongst each other they should be trying to figure out how to keep these things from threatening them. The episode was a big letdown, for me. I really do want some of the mysteries answered. The countdown clock going to zero. I really wanted to know what would happen, if it wasn't reset.

Well, they did say last year that the major storyline this year would be the Locke/Jack confrontation. Personally, I'm sick of it. If that's all they can think of to do along with having Sawyer chase frogs and Charlie pull his hood up, this may be my last season to watch. I can think of a hundred different directions they could take that would be more interesting, but we're over half way thru the season and so far it's just silly. And another thing, I also feel nothing for the characters anymore. None of the ones we see alot are likeable anymore, and I could tell early on last season that they were going to make this a "Lord of the Flies" situation and I didn't like the idea. It looks like I was right.:rolleyes:

What about those CG backgrounds of Iraq? I know it is just a TV show, but why is it so often that producers or whoever favor grandiose unrealistic CG shots over simplistic and more realistic shots. The set for Iraq in Solitary was much better. It's a minor thing, but it detracted from the episode as a whole and left Sayid looking ridiculous by the roadside.

I agree with you about the cgi, pibbs. It was laughable.

Cardie

This ep was a bit better than the the last few, but the character "changes" are still not ringing true here. Locke has gone from the wise one to a complete dolt for no reason - he already got tricked into opening up the armory once - he's going to do it again? And since when did Jack become gullible? Wasn't he the one who wanted to start an army to fight the Others? And now some complete stranger shows up and he takes an all-trusting attitude? (And I do agree with many other posts that the bickering between these two is getting annoying. It needs to lead to something fast.)
Poor Hurley - he hasn't had a real storyline for a while, and now when we finally see him, he's pigging out in the jungle. Which also doesn't ring true - remember he was the one who hated the idea of having to guard the food rations, and finally convinced Jack to just distribute the stuff to everyone? We thought he was being noble and fair, right? No, no, the writers decided he would be treacherous and a liar now.
And Sayid - something about his motivation for his actions is so muddled, I can't even put into words what doesn't feel right.
The final convo with Charlie was odd. Why Charlie? And I know there's a whole thread devoted to this, but really, it's not convincing that he would have this heartfelt discusison with Charlie. I think it would have been a very interesting moment if he had had this convo with Ana Lucia. Yes, part of him hates her for what she did to Shannon. But, she is also the only one on the island who is as sensitive to how dangerous the others are and how everything necessary should be done to defend themselves. She would completely understand Sayid's "they have forgotten but I haven't" speech. Wouldn't this be the beginning of an interesting alliance?
I also thought it would have been much cooler if at the end of the Long Con, Ana Lucia was the one in on the whole thing with Sawyer. They could have planned to have her act a bit suspiciously about the guns, so that Jack would do what he eventually did. They both duped Kate, Jack, everyone together. That would have been a great "reveal" at the end.
Okay, maybe I just miss her, and other characters we haven't seen much lately. But I have one question? Why is she the only one on the island with only one shirt? Everyone else gets to change clothes once in a while!

A few things I didn't like about this episode.

The Sawyer/Hurley thing was pointless. It progressed niether the characters nor the plot. It was a total filler thing that they could have put in any episode to take up time.

I hate the use of blue screen to create a CG Iraqi desert in the flashback. I'll cut them slack because there are no deserts in Hawaii, but geeze it just looked so fake. It took me out of the story and reminded me "oh yeah, TV= not real". I espcecially hate the last shot of Sayid standing alone as the truck drove away. It looked so awkward with the fake background. Not at all lost like.

I couldn't stand how Locke looked sooo much like the real Mr. Clean in this episode. With that white shirt it was pretty distracting.

However there was awsome acting by Naveene Andrews who made me cry at the end. So good. It saved the episode for me.

I think it would have been a far better episode if, instead of a tree frog, the boar from season one had come back to pester Sawyer, and this time, instead of showing mercy, Sawyer could have slit its throat open and then kicked it, and then Hurley could have eaten it with his ranch or whatever.

I just have one thing to say... This episode made me hate (for lack of better word) Sawyer, last one shook me up, he is now rated as obsessive, compulsive, and all around downright mean guy. My reason? He squished a frog with his bare hands, because it was makeing noise...I've learned you can't expect Sawyer to be in any amount "good" for a lenth of time. He thrusts your trust away after he feels too "loved". I can't say I can like him now that I know he will kill in cold blood.
So when he shot the guy at the shrimp stand at point blank range-that wasn't cold blood. Yeah, he was led to believe that was "sawyer" but come on. You're outraged when he kills a freakin' frog, but when he kills a person it's no big deal?

Well, they did say last year that the major storyline this year would be the Locke/Jack confrontation. Personally, I'm sick of it. If that's all they can think of to do along with having Sawyer chase frogs and Charlie pull his hood up, this may be my last season to watch. I can think of a hundred different directions they could take that would be more interesting, but we're over half way thru the season and so far it's just silly. And another thing, I also feel nothing for the characters anymore. None of the ones we see alot are likeable anymore, and I could tell early on last season that they were going to make this a "Lord of the Flies" situation and I didn't like the idea. It looks like I was right.:rolleyes:

Lord of the Flies, huh. Well that says everything for me. It also seemed to me that what happened in TLC with Sawyer, Charlie and everyone, was not even brought up in this episode. Sawyer chasing frogs and KILLING it was terrible. I also am thinking about giving up on the show too. I'm just tired. With the exception of a few episodes the rest of the season seems to be going nowhere. I really think that in order to save what is left of the season some answers have to be given about the mysteries. I really think they should have let the clock wind down to zero and see what happens when it isn't reset.

"The final convo with Charlie was odd. Why Charlie? And I know there's a whole thread devoted to this, but really, it's not convincing that he would have this heartfelt discusison with Charlie. I think it would have been a very interesting moment if he had had this convo with Ana Lucia. Yes, part of him hates her for what she did to Shannon. But, she is also the only one on the island who is as sensitive to how dangerous the others are and how everything necessary should be done to defend themselves. She would completely understand Sayid's "they have forgotten but I haven't" speech. Wouldn't this be the beginning of an interesting alliance?"

I think that Sayid and AL will form some kind of relationship. I don't know about alliance, but they will be forced to spend some time together.


"I also thought it would have been much cooler if at the end of the Long Con, Ana Lucia was the one in on the whole thing with Sawyer. They could have planned to have her act a bit suspiciously about the guns, so that Jack would do what he eventually did. They both duped Kate, Jack, everyone together. That would have been a great "reveal" at the end."

I disagree with this simply because Kate was telling Jack that it was AL the whole time. I was expecting AL to come out into the light-not Charlie. I was glad to see it was Charlie, though. It just proves that pretty much what I predict will happen-won't, and what I don't see coming-hit's me right square in the nose.

I think its because Sayid can read people and he's reading Charlie right!

It was ok, but i'm not too intersted into Sayid's character. Therefore, it found it not bad but nothing great! I also wish they stopped making of Sawyer an even more "bad guy" than he is.

Hey, you guys are acting like ignoring TLC is a bad thing. I don't see it as a bad thing. I'm trying to pretend it didn't actually happen, too.

Hey, you guys are acting like ignoring TLC is a bad thing. I don't see it as a bad thing. I'm trying to pretend it didn't actually happen, too.

So am I. For myself this episode wasn't exactly good either.

The main part is finding if henry is a other. :rolleyes:

So when he shot the guy at the shrimp stand at point blank range-that wasn't cold blood. Yeah, he was led to believe that was "sawyer" but come on. ?
I honestly had forgotten that!:rolleyes:

I honestly had forgotten that!:rolleyes:

Well, the thing about shooting the guy at the shrimp stand ... Although it is entirely indefensible, I always felt that Sawyer didn't really want to do it... More that he felt obligated to do it. Even though he thought this man had led to the death of his parents, he was still struggling with whether or not to actually go through with his life's goal - to avenge his parents' death.

But with the frog, he didn't hesitate.

Not that you can really compare the two situations at all, though. They're entirely different. Just an observation.

i can't wait until we see what might of activated after the buttons were'nt pressed wrong, i believe the secuirty system is going out for some fun, since the monster will be seen mostly this season. :wink:

Guys you really need to start giving us some anserws, I was kind of dissapointed with this episode, the hieroglyphs were cool though.

This was by far the weakest Sayid episode. I really wish the writers would make better choices regarding his character and motivations. Most notably by dropping the Shannon/Nadia albatross they've strangled him with. It wasn't all that bad until they dropped that little Shannon tantrum out of nowhere, which didn't parallel the flashbacks at all.

Out of the 6 main characters, Sayid's episodes are always the most disconnected. The backstories barely follow and explain the island stories, and they throw things out of nowhere into the mix. They also put way too many components into it. We actually learn more about Sayid's current island adventures more from previous episodes than the backstory that's supposed to be giving him more depth. It's a huge contrast to the incredible personal details they give to Jack, Locke, Charlie, and Sawyer's episodes. Those are some of the tightest and parallelistic scripts around. Even third-tier Hurley gets better treatment. Comparatively speaking, Sayid's almost a caricature at this point as he's far too broad to be defined. He definitely doesn't have as much depth to him as most of all the other characters. It's almost at Jin/Sun level. Maybe that's one of the main reasons I like the others better than Sayid. They're more real than he is.

They need to pick a trait and stick with it. Either Sayid's on the island because he's tortured he's a torturer (which we rarely see), or he's on the island because he can't get over his love life. I'd prefer the writers stick with the first one. With all the ping-ponging they do, it's really hard to figure out what exactly Sayid is trying to atone for. All the other top chararacters are in general working on something. What precisely is Sayid trying to personally improve upon? It doesn't help that Naveen can't quite sell it himself. That whole "I loved Shannon deeply" just has to go. And that whole "The Americans made him do it" was completely glossed over, making it look completely propagandic.

He comes across as the least angst-ridden character on the island, next to Sun and Claire. He should be one of the most. He's practically perfect, and he should not be. That last scene with Charlie was also completely hypocritical. Suddenly Sayid remembers and cares about something, when he's the narrative character most used to prevent information? Yeah, right. I do like the consistency of how he's portrayed and written. I just don't like what they write for him. He's not poorly written, just boringly written.

OTOH, I rather liked the Sawyer/Hurley plot. I certainly fell for it at least. Something I thought wouldn't happen again after the last episode.

Havent' read the whole thread....but my take on why the Hurley/Sawyer parts were important from a writer's perspective.

We (audience) need to be able to sympathize with Sayid...but the guy's a torturer! Mighty ambitious on the part of the writers. How do are they going to make that happen?

1. Make him extemely competant at what he does.

2. Give him a really good reason to do it. (The good of the "tribe".)

3. Contrast him against others. Namely Hurley, who, though loveable, is damaging the tribe by stealing food/emotional comfort from them. And Sawyer, who shows despicable disregard of life by killing the frog.

4. Show him aware (conversation with Charlie) that he is making a sacrifice that is extremely costly to him (the loss of his humanity) but is necessary for the good of the "tribe".

I think Sayid's conversation with Charlie was an attempt to seek an ally. It wasn't motivated by belated sensitivity or anything. He's perfectly aware that Charlie's being shunned by the group, and hence is vulnerable (much like Sawyer saw him in TLC). He needs someone who'll be completely on board with the whole 'getting Gale to talk' thing. That's why he decides to bring up the previous incidents, in an effort to spark a reaction in Charlie. Sayid's smart (that's been established since day 1). He knows Charlie actually killed an Other for revenge, and hence Charlie will probably be much keener than Jack or even Locke to take action, especially given his current status as an outcast.

I can't understand Jack's behavior at all, though. He wants to build an army, right? Well, who's in it? As far as we know, just him and AL. That's hardly an army, is it? Exactly who has he enlisted so far? I was really surprised that he hadn't asked Locke. Personal differences aside, Locke would be an asset to any 'army.' I found Jack's defence of Gale highly irregular. I really like Jack, as a character, but he seems to be acting really inconsistent. If he's the leader, he needs to be tough at times. He can't defend suspicious characters, and he certainly shouldn't create differences between himself and those who can be a real help to him: Locke and Sayid being two perfect examples.

Like many of the other posters, I am baffled by the recent behavior of Locke. How can he take orders and rudeness from Jack etc,? It just doesn't fit. I mean, this is the man who beat on Charlie just 2 epis ago, and now he's suddenly meek and uncertain? I don't like it, and I don't buy it. When Jack had him against the wall, I kept thinking, 'why doesn't he just shove the doctor and go press the button?' Why was he so docile? I really want to see a return to the original Locke!

I completely missed the 'Wizard of Oz' clue, and was heartened when I read about it on this thread. It's suddenly become a lot more exciting! I already thought Gale was an Other, but now it's confirmed since his whole story was a lift from Wizard. I only wish Jack would have heard the story, so he could have realized the truth. I'm hoping he will.

WHERE did Danielle get the lipstick???
Maybe she put it on because she was going to see Sayid?

This was by far the weakest Sayid episode. I really wish the writers would make better choices regarding his character and motivations. Most notably by dropping the Shannon/Nadia albatross they've strangled him with. It wasn't all that bad until they dropped that little Shannon tantrum out of nowhere, which didn't parallel the flashbacks at all.

The 'Shannon tantrum' paralleled Sayid's motivation in his flashback. Initially, Sayid wasn't interested in interrogating (much less torturing) his superior officer... until he learned that he had been responsible for the gassing of one of Sayid's family villages. This parallels his motivation to torture and interrogate this 'other', who are responsible (indirectly, I grant you) for the death of Shannon.

It doesn't exactly parallel, but I don't think it's necessarily meant to.

Hi,
The last episode of Lost was weak! First of all we all know Syiad has dabbled in the field of touture. Been there done that. I love Lost, god knows I do but I will find Abrams house if he pulls another Alias.

Later,
Oaktisle

Ok, Dharma is using this island -- outside of any nation's legal jurisdiction -- for research on growth acceleration. This is why they want babies and children.

Look at Walt. The actor has undergone a big growth spurt this year (look at the rare images of him in season 2). Sooner or later, they're going to have to explain it, when he's found.

It will be explained as a Dharma experiment to accelerate growth in children. (Reminds me of the Stormtrooper clones in the Star Wars prequels.) Possibly it is -- like Star Wars -- to prepare these children for battle, or maybe to get them ready for advanced research, or who knows?

Ok -- how else will they explain Walt's growth spurt, when he's eventually found? Remember, the island time is just a few weeks. Also, this provides an explanation for why they wanted Claire so much, for her baby, as well as the Tailie children.

Ok, Dharma is using this island -- outside of any nation's legal jurisdiction -- for research on growth acceleration. This is why they want babies and children.

Look at Walt. The actor has undergone a big growth spurt this year (look at the rare images of him in season 2). Sooner or later, they're going to have to explain it, when he's found.

It will be explained as a Dharma experiment to accelerate growth in children. (Reminds me of the Stormtrooper clones in the Star Wars prequels.) Possibly it is -- like Star Wars -- to prepare these children for battle, or maybe to get them ready for advanced research, or who knows?

Ok -- how else will they explain Walt's growth spurt, when he's eventually found? Remember, the island time is just a few weeks. Also, this provides an explanation for why they wanted Claire so much, for her baby, as well as the Tailie children.

Unless they've already filmed scenes with Walt before he sprouted.. but of course, they're going to have to explain it eventually one way or another, and this is an awfully convenient time for him to suddenly get taller.

But the real problem I am having is how disjointed and stand-alone each ep feels this season, with no connection to the one preceding it.

I agree. Although I did like the show (I like 'em all), it did leave me feeling like...I don't know, like we're missing something that they want us to see. That there are...I don't know, I don't want to say "missing pieces" as that's obvious, but I'm left feeling ...unfulfilled, I guess. Like the writers are letting us down. I never thought I'd say that! So I hope that we will be given reasons for that seemingly-useless scene w/ Saywer and Hurley and the frog. IS that frog poisonous, I wonder? Cuz I'd hate to see Saywer sick and out of it AGAIN. I mean, how many times can that guy be brought back from the brink of death?

I agree. Although I did like the show (I like 'em all), it did leave me feeling like...I don't know, like we're missing something that they want us to see. That there are...I don't know, I don't want to say "missing pieces" as that's obvious, but I'm left feeling ...unfulfilled, I guess. Like the writers are letting us down. I never thought I'd say that! So I hope that we will be given reasons for that seemingly-useless scene w/ Saywer and Hurley and the frog. IS that frog poisonous, I wonder? Cuz I'd hate to see Saywer sick and out of it AGAIN. I mean, how many times can that guy be brought back from the brink of death?

Couldn't have said it better!!! I feel exactly the same...."kinda flat" .... one minute there's gonna be an army...next minute they have only 2 (unknown) guys willing to join "the army"....no main characters approached?????? :confused:
Then we've got Sayid first wanting to protect Gale (when he's with Danielle) and then he's beating the c##p out of him and sooooo sure he's an "other" and poor ol Hurley probably was in the mental hospital for an eating disorder and now he's struggling again and good ol bully (though scrumptious :kiss: ) Sawyer has his way with him. :undecide:

Oh well.....I'm too addicted to lost, so i'll keep hoping they'll pull all the loose bits of the last 3 or 4 episodes together and make some sense of it all for us :ohwell:

I'm losing interested. I haven't even watched all of this episode and I don't even think about it.
Either I'm getting really cynical in my middle age, or the show is starting to bore.

I'm losing interested. I haven't even watched all of this episode and I don't even think about it.
Either I'm getting really cynical in my middle age, or the show is starting to bore.

Although you may be getting cynical ttom, I do think you're right in that the show is becoming boring... and you're not the only one.

I don't know, after you rewatch this episode, you have to say that a lot of things happened. From minute 1, they have been throwing Henry Gale at us, the symbol on the counter later and quite obvious torturing (risky for a succesful show). So we cannot really complain that much.

The problem I have is with the finishing work of the whole idea. Most of the last episodes didn't feel very coherent, and this is no exception. They tend to drive us further from the main plot, and bad CGI isn't helping.

And about Henry Gale, while the actor is doing a splendid job of it, I do sincerely hope the makers have a reason for them using someone looking so...comical. He almost looked more like a frog than the tree frog in some shots.

I'm losing interested. I haven't even watched all of this episode and I don't even think about it.
Either I'm getting really cynical in my middle age, or the show is starting to bore.

You're not the only one. The show is starting to bore me too. I really don't care as much as I used to. For me it's too many questions or mysteries and not enough, if any answers.

Enjoy tonight's episode... It's the last for 3 weeks.