Do you think it started after he left Locke the first time (in which case he was never hit on the head, never tied up...)

Do you think that Locke did hit him but Boone hallucinated the rest?

Do you think the hallucinations started after he was tied up?

I'm not certain that Locke even hit him. I checked the screen shots from Boone tackling Locke by the fire but it's too dark to see if the back of his head is bloody.

If Locke did hit Boone, it would make sense that Locke was also the one who beaned Sayid.

Locke did not knock Sayid out because there was nothing to be gained by that. Locke has already helped Sayid out by giving him the knife to deal with Sawyer.

OK. So do you think he beaned Boone?

It would have been better if he did a Kirk-chop to the back of his neck. Well....maybe not better, but funnier!

He must have in order to get Boone tied up. The mind plays tricks on you when you are alone.

Because we always need reason as to why things happen, we naturally assume that it is the paste because Boone needs a reason as to what he saw. Not that this was something that bothered him greatly and needed to be addressed.

There was no hallucination. He made it back to camp safe and sound, didn't he? Or was that part of the hallucination too?

He must have in order to get Boone tied up. The mind plays tricks on you when you are alone.

Because we always need reason as to why things happen, we naturally assume that it is the paste because Boone needs a reason as to what he saw. Not that this was something that bothered him greatly and needed to be addressed.


If Boone was acutally tied up, that would have been part of the hallucination if it started earlier.

We don't know what's real and what's not. It could have started when he was bonked on the head.

But I think it happened after Locke left him with the knife.

I want to believe that Locke didn't hit him.

A few people have said Boone and Charlie are now Locke's dedicated followers, his true believers and so forth.

He's put each of them in direct physical danger. How does that build loyalty and trust? Even if it did help the guys get through resolving their inner conflicts, I don't understand why they'd trust him.

But I want to trust him.

sigh. I'm confused.

He'd get me fer sure. Especially if he used ropes ;)

I've thought about this as well. It's hard to say, but I think it started after he got the knife...

If you watch closely, when Boone "wakes" after failing the first time to reach the knife the is a change to the feel of the scene. Kind of like when Claire had her second dream.

Tha's when he hears Shannon and the rest happens. I think that's when the hallucination started.

I don't think it was a hallucination at all.
I think the island makes people, literally! live out there daemons so they come to grips with it.

I don't think it was a hallucination at all.
I think the island makes people, literally! live out there daemons so they come to grips with it.


Then how do you explain Shannon being alive and well back at camp after Boone saw her die in his arms?

ETA: The whole untie Shannon, try to save her from the monster, fail is a direct metaphorical parallel to his failure to protect her in real life from her abusers (even if they were fake, he still felt that he was failing).

A few things to possibly suggest that the whole thing was a hallucination.
SPOILERS:
1. Lock said all along that he didn't know where Boone was - he's gerenally been honest so far.
2. He seemed surprised when Boone attacked him. *I don't know about you but if I clocked someone on the head and tied them up then I wouldn't be so surprised when an hour later they are attacking me.
3. Boone's head was (I think?) better in the end
4. People have seen what they wanted to see without help. *Nobody else needed to be forced to "confront" their issues/limitations
5. Where was the knife? *I don't recall Boone coming back to camp with it. *He wouldn't have dropped it. *Did it show what he did with it in the epi?

Even the smallest amount of blood can look like a gusher. It was probably a small cut, nothing major, what you do have to worry about is the concusion(sp).

Then how do you explain Shannon being alive and well back at camp after Boone saw her die in his arms?


Alternate reality. Same thing with Jack and Ethan and Claire in her dream.

Boone saw Shannon die. It was real to him. Why is what Boone saw back at the camp more real than what he saw in his own personal journey?

Then how do you explain Shannon being alive and well back at camp after Boone saw her die in his arms?

ETA: The whole untie Shannon, try to save her from the monster, fail is a direct metaphorical parallel to his failure to protect her in real life from her abusers (even if they were fake, he still felt that he was failing).


I will repeat: I think the island makes people, literally! live out there daemons so they come to grips with it.
That does not mean it was not real.

Whether it was real via an alternate reality or a hallucination doesn't change the question of when it started, and more significantly, whether Locke was involved (the real Locke that is, vs some alternate reality Locke).

I guess hallucinations are just a lot more plausible to me that alternate realities. I believe in the possibility of alternate realities on a metaphysical level, but the writers have said that there is a rational explanation for everything that happens. Until science proves alternate realities, it's not a rational explanation.

Plus, I'm a big believer in Hocum's razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

Whether it was real via an alternate reality or a hallucination doesn't change the question of when it started, and more significantly, whether Locke was involved (the real Locke that is, vs some alternate reality Locke).


True, and thanks for pointing that out.

Personally, I think it was when he started hearing Shannon's screams. *I think Locke did hit Boone. *I think he did tie him up, and he did smear the paste in his wound to cause a sort of "vision quest." *
Maybe I'm taking it all too literally, but I think something need to be taken a face value or else we drive ourselves crazy with questions. *Besides, to me that makes the most sense.

As for the good or evil in Locke hitting Boone, I think Locke honestly believed that his actions against Boone were both, necessary and justified. *He needed Boone to come to a self realization, and it was going to take some tough actions to get him there, and make him receptive to it. *I think Locke needs Boone for his greater purpose (which Locke, at least , believes is right, I believe), and to get Boone on board he needed Boone really understand and accept things about himself and his relationship to his sister. *Locke from early on has seemed to me to be an ends justifies the means kinda guy, in that a hard envorinment requires hard actions which sometimes look bad on the surface. *Anyhoo, to make a long explanation short (too late), Locke hitting Boone was a justified action to Locke. *I think the ultimate value in it will be determined based on what Locke's ultimate goal is, and how far one thinks it is appropriate to go in obtaining said goal.


That said, I think WhiteSapphire's alternate reality theory is interesting. *While I'm not ready to jump aboard that train, I am definitly going to keep my eyes out for clues on this.


A few things to possibly suggest that the whole thing was a hallucination.
SPOILERS:

2. He seemed surprised when Boone attacked him. *I don't know about you but if I clocked someone on the head and tied them up then I wouldn't be so surprised when an hour later they are attacking me.
5. Where was the knife? *I don't recall Boone coming back to camp with it. *He wouldn't have dropped it. *Did it show what he did with it in the epi?



I wanted to commend on #2 and #5. *I'll put in in spoiler because you put them in spoilers.

#2 - I think he was surprised because I think he thought Boone would see something similar in nature to what the island showed him. *I think he thought Boone would come back not only with a greater understanding of himself, but with an small understanding of why Locke did what he did. *I think he expected Boone to come back with a greater sense of peace, not in a vengeful rage

#5 - I will have to see the end again, but I thought that Boone attacked Locke with the knife in hand and when Locke tossed Boone, Boone dropped it

Whether it was real via an alternate reality or a hallucination doesn't change the question of when it started, and more significantly, whether Locke was involved (the real Locke that is, vs some alternate reality Locke).


Well, the idea is that the alternate reality is just sort of like taking the other fork in the road. When was the fork? I'd guess it was about when Boone woke up, but maybe it was earlier. For sure, Locke knew the make the paste ahead of time, so maybe they had already taken that turn.

The same thing with the end of the experience. Boone was merely merging back into the reality that the group shares.

Can someone remind me who this episode started re: Boone and Locke? *What did we first see? *My recollection is that we start seeing them in camp with Boone getting peppered with questions about hunting, then Locke says something along the lines of "lets go". *Next we see them at the hatch. *Then the 'fight' and then Locke is back at camp. *Was there anything to indicate that they split up along the way?

On a side note: *anyone see/read Sphere. *Isn't this basically the same idea. *Whatever you think actually comes true, be it good (walking again; father) or bad (monster, dead step-sister). * In the end the fact is that humans cannot control our thoughts well enough (except maybe Locke) to control this power.

I believe that Boone did have the knife when he attacked Locke at the end...

Boone's hallucinations started when Shannon started screaming for help.

Locke lied on purpose to Jack. He always knew where Boone was, which is why he said, "he's hunting boar. Wanted me to have the afternoon off."

Or was I the only one who noticed that?

I also caught that.

I admit that is a suspicious line

Can someone remind me who this episode started re: Boone and Locke? What did we first see? My recollection is that we start seeing them in camp with Boone getting peppered with questions about hunting, then Locke says something along the lines of "lets go". Next we see them at the hatch. Then the 'fight' and then Locke is back at camp. Was there anything to indicate that they split up along the way?

On a side note: anyone see/read Sphere. Isn't this basically the same idea. Whatever you think actually comes true, be it good (walking again; father) or bad (monster, dead step-sister). In the end the fact is that humans cannot control our thoughts well enough (except maybe Locke) to control this power.


I'm not sure I understand your question. The episode opened focussed on Boone's eye - he was glaring at Sayid giving the purple shoes to Shannon.

I guess my question is how did it show Boone and Locke going to the jungle? Did we see Locke say something to Boone on the beach before they went to the hatch?

I'm not certain that Locke even hit him. I checked the screen shots from Boone tackling Locke by the fire but it's too dark to see if the back of his head is bloody.


I didn't tape the episode, but I'm almost 100% sure I saw a cut of some sort on the back of Boone's head after he tried attacking Locke. *Can anyone else confirm this?

Ah yes!

Boone told Sayid, "Stay away from my sister."

Then Locke called out to him, "C'mon, I found fresh tracks down by the river."

... and they walked off together into the jungle. Locke then told Boone he needed to put aside his differences with Sayid "because we need him on our side".

Boone then went on to talk about how people were commenting on the lack of boar food and wondering what they were doing.

Locke said, "What we are doing here is much more important."

Odd time note: that conversation was very brief but by the time it was over they were at the hatch, were they not? That's a pretty quick clip to hike 4 miles!

I think Locke *did* knock him out - he needed the open wound to put the stuff in to make him hallucinate - so I think it's all real up till when Boone looks like he wakes up all groggy and hears Shannon scream. Then he gets back to camp not bloody, and we're back to the real world.

I think Locke *did* knock him out - he needed the open wound to put the stuff in to make him hallucinate - so I think it's all real up till when Boone looks like he wakes up all groggy and hears Shannon scream. Then he gets back to camp not bloody, and we're back to the real world.


See, I don't think the paste was hallucinogenic. Locke, when applying it, said, "A wound untreated out here will get infected fast."

If that whole sequence really happened, I think he was just treating the wound with natural anti-bacterial goop.

See, I don't think the paste was hallucinogenic. Locke, when applying it, said, "A wound untreated out here will get infected fast."

If that whole sequence really happened, I think he was just treating the wound with natural anti-bacterial goop.


I got the impression that he just said that to explain why he was smearing Boone's head with gunk. I can't remember exactly how Locke responded to Boone at the end when Boone theorized that it was the gunk that cuased it, but it definitely left me with the impression that Locke had indicated in some way that Boone was right.

Following that thinking Locke would have given the anti-bacterial infobecasue he couldn't tell Boone that he was giving him a massive hallucinagen, and if he left Boone without any explanation, Boone might think that it was a hallucination from the gunk. Boone couldn't suspect anything, even the slightest bit. He needed to think it was real in order for the "vision" to work. That is my guess anyway.

Of course that doens't mean that Locke was exactly lying. It could have been both a Hallucinogen and an Anti-bacterial of sorts.

I'm waiting for my lunch to arrive so I can re-watch the epi. I'll keep my eyes open. I missed that reference at the end.

It seemed to me that Locke intentionally gave Boone hallucinogenic goop because at the end when Boone flies off the handle, Locke asks him kind of eagerly, "What did you see?" or words to that effect. I, too, think the hallucination starts with him waking the second time to hear Shannon screaming. However, and I said this in a different thread (don't remember where), I don't think that just because it's a hallucination we can discount stuff that happens in his hallucination, except maybe for the simple fact that Shannon's up and around. I'm thinking more along the lines of Mr. Monster's characteristics--we did get to see a shadow this time, which if I remember correctly, is more than we've seen before.

I didnt' see this mentioned anywhere else but... Did anyone notice that Locke was mashing put that paste well before he bonked Boone on the back of the head? And when Boone asked him what he was doing he said he'd need it later (or something to that effect)? So it seems that Locke knew he was going to use this stuff on Boone well before he cracked him in the noggin.

It seemed to me that Locke intentionally gave Boone hallucinogenic goop because at the end when Boone flies off the handle, Locke asks him kind of eagerly, "What did you see?" or words to that effect.* I, too, think the hallucination starts with him waking the second time to hear Shannon screaming.* However, and I said this in a different thread (don't remember where), I don't think that just because it's a hallucination we can discount stuff that happens in his hallucination, except maybe for the simple fact that Shannon's up and around.* I'm thinking more along the lines of Mr. Monster's characteristics--we did get to see a shadow this time, which if I remember correctly, is more than we've seen before.


It is true that he could have actually encountered the "monster", but if one believes that it was a hallucination, then it calls the entire event into question. *I could just as easily be that the shadow was in a shape what Boone subconsciously thinks the "monster" is, as it is that it was really the monster. *Personally until I have more evidence, I am inclined to believe that the "monster" in the hallucination is a manifestation of Boone's fears of what could make the noises he'd heard and knock down trees like that.

IMO, the hallucination started when Shannon's screams started (or thereabouts). Locke said something like "you'll be able to free yourself when you have the proper motivation" right after he threw the knife into the ground. He knew that the island would provide that motivation.

I also believe that everything Boone saw and did was real with the one exception being that Shannon was never there with him. So, the "screams" started, he struggles to get free, cuts himself loose and then all the running and even teh "monster" were real. Shannon was the hallucination.

Just one man's opinion.

Looks like Boone had the knife at the end.
http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=167&pos=751

It would have been better if he did a Kirk-chop to the back of his neck. Well....maybe not better, but funnier!


Kirk-chop huh??? that would have been funnier :lol2: :laugh: :lol2: :laugh:

The strange thing is the visions manifest themselves in different ways. I thought maybe you have to be alone, but Jack had his whilst talking to Kate and could see his father.

Nanse,
I agree but what I was driving at was that for the purposes of the show, we can't discount everything in the hallucination. Claire's dream had some pertinent stuff in it, but it didn't really happen. Either way makes sense to me. There's logic, and then there's TV logic.

Nanse,
* I agree but what I was driving at was that for the purposes of the show, we can't discount everything in the hallucination.* Claire's dream had some pertinent stuff in it, but it didn't really happen.* Either way makes sense to me.* There's logic, and then there's TV logic.


No, you are right that not everything can be discounted. I for one believe Claire's dream hold's a lot of meaning. I think I am in part resistant to the idea that the "monster" attacking Boone was the real monster mostly because I am resistant to the idea that it is dinosaur or truly monster -like in the classical sense. You could be very right that the shadow means something in reality.

Don't know if anyone has discussed this,* but I found some interesting information regarding "BooNE" http://www.ps.uci.edu/~superk/neutrino.html

What do you all think?

According to David Fury (writer for Lost/ Co-Executive Producer) on the LB today:
^ *v
Fury says:
(Thu Jan 13 23:43:09 2005) [Context]


Last night's ep. was courtesy of Mr. Cuse and Mr. Mark's Watch... So I can take no credit.

I hope you like next week's half as much.

And I do mean HALF... non of this three-quarters, seven-eights crap.

And Locke's salve definitely had an effect on Boone. But the island kinda helps it along, if you know what I mean.

I know I don't.


Hope this ends the paste controversy.

I taped the show and have seen it a few times. So this is my take on when Boone's hallucination started.

Boone and Locke discussedwhy they were sitting and staring at the 'hatch', then left.* Locke was making the paste/goo at this time. Boone asked what are you doing, Locke said this was for later!!!

As they were walking in the wood, Boone told Locke he had to tell Shannon about what they found.

Locke said "are you sure?" Boone said "yes"* Locke said "so be it".

Boone started walking again ahead of Locke, Locke then preceeded to take his knife out and hit Boone on the back of the head.

Boone woke up BACK at the 'hatch' confused and watching Locke making up some paste/goo stuff. When Locke put the paste on Boone head it was bloody from a cut when Boone was hit with the knife.

As he left he threw a knife that landed in front of Boone, saying when you are motivated enough you* will cut yourself loose, then Locke walked away.

We do not know how much time went by when we see Boone wake for the second time to Shannon screams. The hallucination started here.

I think the knock to the head was real but found it weird that blood was leaking down his neck and staining his shirt when he was with the fake shannon then when he was following locke no sign of blood or anything. Mind over matter? Or could the makeup crew have forgot? hehe

Thanks for the ref to the Fury comment -- I'm delighted to hear the immortal Fury confirm the theory about the hallucinogenic paste ;)

I just watched the ep again, and I noticed that after Locke spreads the goop on Boone's bleeding head there are several shots of the trees and greenery around Boone that subtly suggest that his vision might be getting a little wonky. I think he drifts off a bit, because of the drug, then jerks "awake" when he thinks he hears Shannon screaming.

He probably *does* free himself with the knife at the time he thinks he hears the monster about to attack. Who knows -- maybe the monster is actually in the vicinity. Boone then runs about the jungle hallucinating, which would explain how he gets all so dirty and disheveled. He's out there for several hours, since it's after dark when he gets back to the cave-camp. By then the drug has apparently worn off. He attacks Locke, with the knife, but Locke is waiting for him, and fends him off.

I wonder how Locke would have felt if Boone had not made it safely back to camp. Just written him off as one of the great unworthy?

Meanwhile, Locke-who-supposedly-never-lies, lies bald-facedly to Jack when he denies having seen Boone. And to Sayid when he tells him Boone is hunting boar.

And how does Boone, the Big Wuss, respond to this treatment? At the end, Locke says, "follow me," and Boone obediently does.

Sigh. It takes all kinds...

Templeton

I think his hallucination started after Locke tied him up and told him he'd be able to get loose when he had the right motivation.* I think this because of the conversation Boone and Locke had at the end of the episode when Locke admitted he put something on Boone's head, but didn't know what would happen.* Only that Boone would see what he needed to see.* This seemed real, and Locke admitted to part of what occurred.* Even Boone didn't seem to think Locke had ever tied Shannon up.* I also think Locke really tied him up because he told conflicting stories about Boone's whereabouts.* He told Sayid that he left Boone to hunt, to which Sayid responded in disbelief.* Then he told Jack that he hadn't seen Boone all day.* He was lying to at least one of them even if he didn't tie Boone up.* I think the point of showing us that was to show that he must've tied Boone up, because otherwise, why lie?

I also think it's possible that Locke gave Boone the hallucinigen with the hope that it might give him some inspiration about how to open the hatch. this was what Locke had been focusing on while mixing the paste. He might've hoped, or believed that Boone was smarter, or had more insight than he actually is. I really don't think he expected there to be any issue with Shannon at all. He seemed truly shocked about that.

The hallucination started after Locke left him tied up. The pasty junk he put on the back of his head is what made him see things. Locke was surprised when Boone jumped him (with the knife) because Boone was shouting about Shannon being dead.

The bit about the paste was clearly explained at the end ya'll.

Locke was probably shocked that Shannon was Boone's dream team partner because while Boone goes missing, in a monster filled jungle, even after the street lights are on, Shannon's so worried about him she's doing the purple shoe macarena around the campfire. Laughing, smiling, completely oblivious that her brother is absent from class.

Jack and Sayeed were more concerned about Boone than his own sister. Apparently Boone's brotherly love was less than memorable.

According to David Fury (writer for Lost/ Co-Executive Producer) on the LB today:
Hope this ends the paste controversy.

I taped the show and have seen it a few times. So this is my take on when Boone's hallucination started.

Boone and Locke discussedwhy they were sitting and staring at the 'hatch', then left. Locke was making the paste/goo at this time. Boone asked what are you doing, Locke said this was for later!!!

As they were walking in the wood, Boone told Locke he had to tell Shannon about what they found.

Locke said "are you sure?" Boone said "yes" Locke said "so be it".

Boone started walking again ahead of Locke, Locke then preceeded to take his knife out and hit Boone on the back of the head.

Boone woke up BACK at the 'hatch' confused and watching Locke making up some paste/goo stuff. When Locke put the paste on Boone head it was bloody from a cut when Boone was hit with the knife.

As he left he threw a knife that landed in front of Boone, saying when you are motivated enough you will cut yourself loose, then Locke walked away.

We do not know how much time went by when we see Boone wake for the second time to Shannon screams. The hallucination started here.


I watched this again yesterday and I'm in agreement with you now regarding both the start of the hallucination and the use of the goop.

I'm in total agreement about when the hallucination started. When he heard the screams he woke up and the whole scene started to unfold, ending with him over his dead sisters body. I'm in agreement that Locke was surprised because he was expecting that Boones experience would be more enlightening to Boone then it orginally was. Until Boone saw his sister alive, he didn't understand what lesson he'd seen. Locke not knowing he's see his sister dead, wouldn't have been expecting him to react in the matter he did when he got back.

See, I don't think the paste was hallucinogenic. Locke, when applying it, said, "A wound untreated out here will get infected fast."

If that whole sequence really happened, I think he was just treating the wound with natural anti-bacterial goop.


The problem with the goop was that he was making it before he cracked him on the head. Boone asked him what's that, Locke said its for later.

I thought the same thing at first, that the goop was just for infection. But I now agree that the hallucination started after Locke tied Boone up and left.

Locke had two different answers as to where Boone was. *He told Sayid, Boone was hunting on his own cause he should have the day off. *He told Jack that he hadn't seen him all day. *Boone's hallucination probably started while Locke was telling him the Michelangelo story, probably fell asleep (just kidding).

Is that what it made you see - Locke didn't deny putting the paste on the head; he just said I gave you an experience that was vital to your survival on the island.

The problem with the goop was that he was making it before he cracked him on the head.* Boone asked him what's that, Locke said its for later.



So, he planned on making Boone go through a vision from the first. The need to stop him from telling Shannon just gave him a time to start.

So, he planned on making Boone go through a vision from the first. The need to stop him from telling Shannon just gave him a time to start.


I agree. After his little speech on Michaelangelo sitting and staring at his marble for three years or whatever, I got the impression that maybe his original intention was to tie Boone up by the hatch, drug him and hope that he'd figure out how to open it while under the influence. And if that's the case, then Locke is seriously becoming dangerous, because he wasn't even trying to "help" Boone, he was just trying to get at the island's secrets.

i think locke knows boone is worthless to him while he is under the power of shannon's manipulations.
when boone proved he really needed help getting away from her (said he HAD to tell her their secret)
that was when locke decided he had to give him the drug.
i think locke was surprised however that boone's hallucination went so far as KILLING shannon.

... he just said I gave you an experience that was vital to your survival on the island.



Has anyone figured out why letting go of Shannon would be vital to Boone's survival. Is it only because Boone keeps putting himself at risk by trying to help her? This isn't consistant with how Locke helped Charlie. Charlie went from self centered, not wanting to go back for Jack during the monster attack on the pilot, to risking his life for Jack during the cave in. Any ideas on how letting go is vital to survival?

I'm thinking it has more to do with the hatch than we know. Locke clearly thinks something VERY important is in it, and he probably felt that Boone trying to include Shannon would put their work in danger. And, if the hatch is as important as Locke suspects, it could indeed put Boone's life in danger. Hence getting over the Shannon obsession.

OK, I'll buy that. He did say "You mean you can't keep lying to her, or you can't stand the way she makes you feel because you're lying to her." I guess he feels differently now.

Then again I just rewatched the scene to get the quote. Locke appears really annoyed by Boone. I think he is concerned about Boone's divided loyalty. Maybe it's the loyalty that's vital.

Remember the writers said that the show was initially inspired by Survivor and on Survivor there is a lot about alliances. So, I think we're seeing the start of that. Locke already has Charlie on his side and now Boone. What he's planning to do with them, we still don't know. But you'll see more relationship/alliance shifting as this goes on.