I pretty sure this isn't a repeat but I am terribly sorry if it is.

I was just wondering if anyone else out there still had any doubt that Sawyer actually does love Kate. He was delirious in the episode "What Kate Did" and just by saying 'Where is she' and 'I love her' everyone assumed he was talking about Kate. Yes, she was with him a lot but he was unconscious most of the time and still could've been thinking about someone from his past. Part of me does truly think that Sawyer loves her but there's a part of me that still doubts it. And even in "The Hunting Party," it is never resolved between Sawyer and Jack when Jack says to me, "I know, you love her." I just have this weird feeling that everyone is hyping it up too much. He may like her...but I don't feel LOVE there yet because it's too soon and they haven't had enough time to really connect and fall for each other. Does anyone else see my point?

The way Sawyer reacted to Kate's capture, I have no doubt that he's in love with her.

Sawyer feelings are strong. Is it just his macho protective instinct? Feeling needy and lonely? We'll find out, I guess

Sawyer definitely has strong feelings for Kate. "If you touch one hair on her head"...

Maybe he wasn't talking about Kate when he was hallucinating, but I definitely think he's in love with her now. His mannerisms last night spoke volumes.

I pretty sure this isn't a repeat but I am terribly sorry if it is.

I was just wondering if anyone else out there still had any doubt that Sawyer actually does love Kate. He was delirious in the episode "What Kate Did" and just by saying 'Where is she' and 'I love her' everyone assumed he was talking about Kate. Yes, she was with him a lot but he was unconscious most of the time and still could've been thinking about someone from his past. Part of me does truly think that Sawyer loves her but there's a part of me that still doubts it. And even in "The Hunting Party," it is never resolved between Sawyer and Jack when Jack says to me, "I know, you love her." I just have this weird feeling that everyone is hyping it up too much. He may like her...but I don't feel LOVE there yet because it's too soon and they haven't had enough time to really connect and fall for each other. Does anyone else see my point?

Sawyer definitely cares for Kate a lot, I agree. Whether or not he loves her yet, I don't really know either. It is really early to say. His actions last night show he cares, yes, but caring for someone and being in love with them is different. He would get angry if the Others had tried to pull that with another friend too.

My main reason for doubting that he loves Kate is I am not convinced he meant Kate when he originally said "I love her." When Jack repeated that line back to Sawyer last night, Saywer's "What?" reaction was one of confusion. He didn't know at all what Jack meant - he didn't recall saying that. My opinion is that Sawyer was too delirious during WKD to remember what he said. Time will tell if he just cares for Kate or is actually 'in love' with her.

I definetely believe that Sawyer has feelings for Kate, but love is a strong word, IMO.

I definetely believe that Sawyer has feelings for Kate, but love is a strong word, IMO.

Definitely OK with you,

I does have feelings but LOVE is too great word with this kind of relationship...
Sawyer and Kate are just acting like teenagers in School, he loves me but I did not even kissed him or I never touched her but I know I am in love....:kiss:

In France, we call that "fleur bleue" which is "blue flower" in english...:smile:

Cheers,
Wally

While he obviously cares for and lusts after Kate, I think we'll eventually learn that Sawyer was talking about loving someone else.

He strikes me as a man who doesn't fall in love easily but feels deeply when he does.

While he obviously cares for and lusts after Kate, I think we'll eventually learn that Sawyer was talking about loving someone else.

He strikes me as a man who doesn't fall in love easily but feels deeply when he does.
I think I'm of two minds about it at this point, but I'm leaning more towards 'he WAS speaking of Kate'.

He told her, during their "I, Never" game, that he's never been in love. And when he whispered "I love her" to Jack, he was delirious. His subconscious was speaking the truth, and I think his subconscious, which had been hearing Kate's voice for the past several hours while he slept, was definitely focused on Kate. He responded to her, took the pill when she told him to...and when he heard Jack's voice, he asked "Where is she?", wanting to know where Kate had gone. So I'm pretty convinced that the "I love her" was in reference to Kate...he just didn't realize what he was saying/admitting.

When Jack told him "I know, you love her", Sawyer was shocked. I think he's in love with her...but he didn't begin to recognize that fact until Jack threw it on the table so blatantly. Seeing her being held captive by the Others may have sparked something as well. The question now becomes, will he acknowledge it, or brush it off and "snark" it away, as he often does?

Just my $.02. :smile:

IMO that he has no clue what Jack is talking about!
Sawyer likes Kate, but I dont see as love. She offers him a great challenge!
Kates22688, I agree. Some men show there intentions differently, Sawyer is one of those right out front here it is kinda guy, or pretends to be. But feelings for Kate like Jack, IMO nope!
Did Locke interupt them on purpose? I felt he did, knowing it would side track what they were doing. When sawyer tells kate he would have followed, i didnt get the feeling he going take advantage of Jack now not talking to her. He didnt treat her any different.
so here we have two men. both have feelings, and each thinks she likes the other!
Maybe both giving her room, disappointed some how they have to, but giving her room.
letting her choose. But has kate really every been able to choose?
does anyone else think that Kate tries to fix things too!
she broke up a fight between jack and sawyer/james.
did she think she could help with search!

I think someone think there is a need to lock kate and jack in the weapons room ( no guns thoug) and force them to express themselves. small room no place to run!
Get it over with.... stop torching me!
Hey there is a thought Sayid could get them to talk!
LOL

But seriously, i have watched the scene when jack asks sawyer "kate?" i swear he shakes his head no and says no, but so faintly!

I think it's way to early to tell. I think Sawyers reaction would have been the same no matter which Lostie had a gun to their head. These people ONLY have each other and they have a clear enemy. That makes your feelings toward those on your side that much stronger.

I think it's way to early to tell. I think Sawyers reaction would have been the same no matter which Lostie had a gun to their head. These people ONLY have each other and they have a clear enemy. That makes your feelings toward those on your side that much stronger.

Do you think Sawyer would have said "you harm one hair on Hurley's head..." the way he did with Kate? The man loves Kate. He/the writers told us and Jack. It was done in a delirium because he would never have admitted it otherwise. As for him talking about someone else, he seemed very aware of who he was talking about when he asked Jack "where is she?" then Jack confirmed for us with a "you mean Kate?" When he told Kate in "I never" that he'd never been in love, that was obvious foreshadowing -- Kate will be/is the first. I remember reading that in his next backstory we will learn why Sawyer doesn't trust women. I have a feeling he was starting to get close to a woman and she ended up conning him somehow. In my vast tv watching experience, when the writers/characters tell you something (especially in a delirium) you're meant to believe them.

I think I'm of two minds about it at this point, but I'm leaning more towards 'he WAS speaking of Kate'.

He told her, during their "I, Never" game, that he's never been in love. And when he whispered "I love her" to Jack, he was delirious. His subconscious was speaking the truth, and I think his subconscious, which had been hearing Kate's voice for the past several hours while he slept, was definitely focused on Kate. He responded to her, took the pill when she told him to...and when he heard Jack's voice, he asked "Where is she?", wanting to know where Kate had gone. So I'm pretty convinced that the "I love her" was in reference to Kate...he just didn't realize what he was saying/admitting.

When Jack told him "I know, you love her", Sawyer was shocked. I think he's in love with her...but he didn't begin to recognize that fact until Jack threw it on the table so blatantly. Seeing her being held captive by the Others may have sparked something as well. The question now becomes, will he acknowledge it, or brush it off and "snark" it away, as he often does?

Just my $.02. :smile:


You make some good points.

At first, I thought his reaction to Kate being held captive was significant as well. But I'm not sure he wouldn't have reacted much the same way if it had been Claire with a gun to her head.

Remember he said durig the "I Never" game - "I've never been in love". He obviously wasn't in love with her or anyone then. So, I think his feelings have changed towards Kate since the game and he in fact does love her. Or he could have been talking about his mommy???

I had to crack up when I saw the scene when Sawyer said I love her. Because it reminded me of when I was in labor with one of my kids and on all kinds of drugs and I kept telling my Mother-In-Law I LOVED HER!!!!!:eek2: :eek2: :eek2: LOL! I have no memory of this! I guess she kept putting cold cloths on my forehead and I really liked it. My Huspand teased me about this forever! People say all kinds of things when their in alot of pain.I was suprised that JACK being a doctor took him so seriously. I think Jacks the one who Loves her, He's really acting jealous. He was so sarcastic when he said " Ya, I know, you love her". I do think Sawyer really cares for her too, he went out of his way to defend her after Jack got so mad when she followed them into the jungle. Can't wait to see who she ends up with!

I think that Sawyer might take his time in actually VOICING this to Kate...but he is a man of action and his expressions speak volumes. He's held a flame for her for a really long time. I think she's starting to feel the heat!

burn baby burn :biggrin:


btw JONBOY861--- TRUELY EXCELLENT SIGNATURE QUOTE!!! LOVE IT!

The way Sawyer reacted to Kate's capture, I have no doubt that he's in love with her.


I have to agree, some of his facial expressions and actions showed how much he cares for her.

I don't think Sawyer, loves Kate. I love Sawyer...... But I see Kate and him being friends who have a good time and tease each other. I don't see a romantic furure..... :undecide: I do believe he may have feeling for her, but I dunno. Hmm...

I love the Sawyer and Kate dynamic. I don't want to see them get together, however. They are at their best together when there is that flirty, animosity. I hope this is maintained for awhile longer. Whenever Kate seems like she is leaning towards an actual relationship with Sawyer, I don't like the turns the two characters take. Sawyer loses his edge a little bit, and Kate seems to withdraw from the rest of the group. We lose that kindergarten relationship that is so entertaining.

There just seems much more you can do with a Jack and Kate relationship, while maintaining the close bond between Sawyer and Kate. I hope that Jack and Kate end up together, with no real interference from Sawyer. Then there will always be the threat Jack feels from Sawyer.

I think I'm of two minds about it at this point, but I'm leaning more towards 'he WAS speaking of Kate'.

He told her, during their "I, Never" game, that he's never been in love. And when he whispered "I love her" to Jack, he was delirious. His subconscious was speaking the truth, and I think his subconscious, which had been hearing Kate's voice for the past several hours while he slept, was definitely focused on Kate. He responded to her, took the pill when she told him to...and when he heard Jack's voice, he asked "Where is she?", wanting to know where Kate had gone. So I'm pretty convinced that the "I love her" was in reference to Kate...he just didn't realize what he was saying/admitting.

When Jack told him "I know, you love her", Sawyer was shocked. I think he's in love with her...but he didn't begin to recognize that fact until Jack threw it on the table so blatantly. Seeing her being held captive by the Others may have sparked something as well. The question now becomes, will he acknowledge it, or brush it off and "snark" it away, as he often does?

Just my $.02. :smile:

Your 2 cents are right on the money. I think you are absolutely right about this. He reacted with shock to Jack's statement because Sawyer, himself, doesn't (or didn't at that point) realize he loves her. He probably doesn't even remember what he said when he was so out of it. Geez, I'd be shocked too it someone told me something I said when I was asleep and I didn't know I'd said it.

My $.02 :)
For the record, we don't even know if that was "Sawyer" saying "I love her". It could have been Wayne. Transference, anybody?
Not to mention the fact that the scene was directly paralleling the scene with the Marshall when he is saying "Where is she? Where is she?" about Kate, who plainly was obcessed with her.

ETA: It's also important to note that Jack did not tell Sawyer that Sawyer said this in his delirium. He just says that Sawyer loves her. To Sawyer, this could mean that Jack seems to be inferring this about him. *That* is the look of confusion!

Strictly analyzing the show, and not shipping at all (which people are prone to do), it is clear that TPTB used this show to make it obvious that all 3 of the characters have very serious feelings about each other. And when people care that much about each other, and try to protect each other, they hurt each other (on TV at least).

I don't know if Sawyer consciously loves Kate or not, but he obviously cares deeply for her. (Subconsiously, I "shippingly" believe, he loves her.) That was made more than obvious during this episode. The bigger question is: We know that Sawyer has no idea that he said "I love her" and that Jack heard him---so, was it even Sawyer? And what does it mean, now that Jack has said to Sawyer (paraphrase) "I know, you love her."

These questions are not going to be resovled for a long, long time, if TPTB have anything to say about! :rolleyes:

I believe the writers went out of their way this episode to demonstrate that Sawyer isn't in love with Kate. He expressed nothing but bewilderment at Jack's 'You love her' comment. It was clear that Sawyer had no idea what Jack was talking about. Contrast this with Jack's reaction to Sawyer's 'your girlfriend' comment in Outlaws. Jack knew instantly that Sawyer was talking about Kate, because he did feel that Kate was his girlfriend, and naturally made that connection to Sawyer's statement. But Sawyer knows that he isn't in love with Kate, and doesn't seem to believe that anyone else would have reason to think otherwise, so he had no clue what Jack was trying to imply with 'You love her'.

Next, during the Kate as hostage scene, Sawyer's attention seemed to be focused entirely on Zeke. After Zeke threatens them with 'Can you live with yourself after I shot this woman right in front of you?', Jack quickly comes to the decision that he can't live without Kate and drops his gun. Sawyer is the last to give up his gun, and the look on his face seems to indicate to me that he was seriously debating the issue before following Jack's lead, as if he thought he could live with himself if Kate was killed if that meant getting revenge upon Zeke.

And after Kate was released, the writers didn't show even a tinge of jealousy from Sawyer with the obsessive attention Kate was giving to Jack. This is in stark contrast to the obvious jealousy on Jack's part on the outward hike with what he imagines Sawyer and Kate's relationship is. Sawyer only attempts to console Kate's grief in a brotherly sort of way. In fact, it almost seemed that Sawyer was demonstrating brotherly concern for Jack as well. When, at the begining of the hike, he asked about the problems that Jack was having with Kate, it wasn't in the needling tone he would have used in season one. He seemed genuinely curious about what could have gone wrong with Jack and Kate's relationship.

As for the 'I love her' comment in WKD. I think it's obvious that he wasn't refering to Kate, if only because that's what Jack assumed he meant. It makes the most dramatic sense for Jack to have gotten the wrong impression to start him down the dark trail he's been following lately. I think we're hamstrung in drawing conclusions from this scene by TPTB nixing the Sawyer flashbacks that had been shot for episode two. If those had been shown, we'd likely have known for certain who Sawyer was mumbling about, and would have long since gone on to debate other matters.

I believe the writers went out of their way this episode to demonstrate that Sawyer isn't in love with Kate. He expressed nothing but bewilderment at Jack's 'You love her' comment. It was clear that Sawyer had no idea what Jack was talking about. Contrast this with Jack's reaction to Sawyer's 'your girlfriend' comment in Outlaws. Jack knew instantly that Sawyer was talking about Kate, because he did feel that Kate was his girlfriend, and naturally made that connection to Sawyer's statement. But Sawyer knows that he isn't in love with Kate, and doesn't seem to believe that anyone else would have reason to think otherwise, so he had no clue what Jack was trying to imply with 'You love her'.

Next, during the Kate as hostage scene, Sawyer's attention seemed to be focused entirely on Zeke. After Zeke threatens them with 'Can you live with yourself after I shot this woman right in front of you?', Jack quickly comes to the decision that he can't live without Kate and drops his gun. Sawyer is the last to give up his gun, and the look on his face seems to indicate to me that he was seriously debating the issue before following Jack's lead, as if he thought he could live with himself if Kate was killed if that meant getting revenge upon Zeke.

And after Kate was released, the writers didn't show even a tinge of jealousy from Sawyer with the obsessive attention Kate was giving to Jack. This is in stark contrast to the obvious jealousy on Jack's part on the outward hike with what he imagines Sawyer and Kate's relationship is. Sawyer only attempts to console Kate's grief in a brotherly sort of way. In fact, it almost seemed that Sawyer was demonstrating brotherly concern for Jack as well. When, at the begining of the hike, he asked about the problems that Jack was having with Kate, it wasn't in the needling tone he would have used in season one. He seemed genuinely curious about what could have gone wrong with Jack and Kate's relationship.

As for the 'I love her' comment in WKD. I think it's obvious that he wasn't refering to Kate, if only because that's what Jack assumed he meant. It makes the most dramatic sense for Jack to have gotten the wrong impression to start him down the dark trail he's been following lately. I think we're hamstrung in drawing conclusions from this scene by TPTB nixing the Sawyer flashbacks that had been shot for episode two. If those had been shown, we'd likely have known for certain who Sawyer was mumbling about, and would have long since gone on to debate other matters.

Huh, I must be more of a shipper than I thought I was, because every single conclusion you came to, I came to the opposite of. And I see at the bottom of your post, that you're a Jater. So... I'm less self-aware than I thought I was, I guess!
Your conclusions are interesting. I just don't agree. I think I'll back away from this thread now. :)

I think he expressed nothing but bewilderment at Jack's 'You love her' comment - because he doesn't think he's capable of loving anyone - but, his subconscience is responsible for revealing his true feelings and he was out of it so he would have no idea what Jack was talking about.

Huh, I must be more of a shipper than I thought I was, because every single conclusion you came to, I came to the opposite of. And I see at the bottom of your post, that you're a Jater. So... I'm less self-aware than I thought I was, I guess!
Your conclusions are interesting. I just don't agree. I think I'll back away from this thread now. :)
I believe your self-analysis in your second post is entirely accurate.:biggrin:

As much as anyone can try to claim to be objective in analyzing anything subject less constant than mathematics, we are all shaped by our opinions and world views, and these will guide us on selecting what bits of evidence we consider the most significant in resolving a debate. I am a Jater, and that cetainly does affect how I view the question at hand. I try to compensate for this by citing specific examples from the show that I believe support my position. It's one of the purposes of these boards to allow us to discuss our differences, though it seems rare that anyone's opinion is ever changed. :)

As long as you're willing to discuss your differences of opinion in a civil manner, I urge you not to withdraw from debate. This is all done for fun. After all, the writers will conclusively decide what will happen on the show regardless of what we post here.

I totally agree Joshypoo. I think it's obvious that Sawyer is not entirely consciously aware of how much he loves Kate yet, and was completely taken aback that Jack would assert such a thing because in his mind, Kate has always fancied the doc, and he assumed that he didn't have a chance whereas the doctor did. And yet now we see Jack being very mean in his attitude to Kate (most likely jealousy due to his confusion about the kiss, and his disappointment that Kate is spending time and being close with Sawyer, and also his belief that he heard Sawyer tell him that he loved Kate) in refusing to let her come along with the hunting party.

I thought it was wonderful how they portrayed Sawyer's priorities as soon as he saw Kate was in trouble. That man went from wanting revenge to wanting to kill Zeke if he harmed one hair on her head but being beside himself with worry for her as well. He was the one who received her, he was the one who untied and ungagged and comforted her. Jack looked like he was more annoyed that she'd disobeyed him and mucked up his plan. In my opinion. And when Sawyer offered his quiet support for her after she was treated so harshly by Jack when she was begging for him to forgive her, I think it showed that what was more important than causing problems with Jack was his concern for her emotional wellbeing.

Sawyer has been through hell, and nearly died. It's pretty clear that his relationship with Kate has grown even closer because of this, and perhaps he is closer to admitting his very real and deep feelings for her. He hasn't displayed overtly jealous behaviour like Jack has because he has always assumed he wasn't in the running with perfect Jack the doc around. That is obviously starting to shift.

I for one am absolutely tickled about how much progress Sawyer showed in this ep, with showing how he cares for and seems to understand Kate, and accepts her for who, and what she is. A strong willed, and sometimes flawed woman who only wants to help. He is protective and yet doesn't try to coddle her to the point of suffocation. In my opinion Jack was out of line to forbid her to go on the trek and was acting out some of his emotional jealousy and need to be in control of the situation and again wanting to fix things himself. He may have rationalised that he was only protecting Kate from danger, but I think it became pretty clear by the end of the episode that he was also punishing her for recent events.

I believe your self-analysis in your second post is entirely accurate.:biggrin:
Yeah, I just went off and joined the DIMPLES, I felt so utterly shocked by own feelings... :shock:

As long as you're willing to discuss your differences of opinion in a civil manner, I urge you not to withdraw from debate. This is all done for fun. After all, the writers will conclusively decide what will happen on the show regardless of what we post here.
Oh, yeah, I'm civil... Okay, I can do this.... But I'm going to try to be brief, because I honestly don't want this to get into a shipper debate, just a discussion of the few points we've already mentioned.
He expressed nothing but bewilderment at Jack's 'You love her' comment. It was clear that Sawyer had no idea what Jack was talking about.
To me, the look of bewilderment implied that he was bewildered by Jack saying that, but not that it has no truth in it. I mean, if you don't know that you said something, and then somebody seems to imply that you said something or feeling something, it's kind of a weird thing... you'd have a look of surprise on your face too. Your point has merit, but I just don't think that the look necessarily means that it's not true, ya know?

As for the "I love her" in WKD, I stand by my first post, which is that I don't think we even know if it is Sawyer himself saying that, and it is mostly there to show Jack's reaction.

Sawyer is the last to give up his gun, and the look on his face seems to indicate to me that he was seriously debating the issue before following Jack's lead, as if he thought he could live with himself if Kate was killed if that meant getting revenge upon Zeke.

This is the point I most disagree with. I think the look on Sawyer's face becomes absolutely livid, like his is on the verge of exploding, when he sees Kate in that situation. And he said the line about if Zeke touches a hair on her head.... I think that he was almost beyond reason at that point--like he wanted to kill Zeke for laying a hand on Kate. But, when Jack put down his gun, he kind of "came to" and knew that he needed to put down his gun too, or Kate would be shot. And I think when he says that he's not through with Zeke, that he means that now he has even more reason to hunt him down and kill him--Zeke did that to Kate, and Sawyer will not let that go.

I totally agree Joshypoo. I think it's obvious that Sawyer is not entirely consciously aware of how much he loves Kate yet, and was completely taken aback that Jack would assert such a thing because in his mind, Kate has always fancied the doc, and he assumed that he didn't have a chance whereas the doctor did. And yet now we see Jack being very mean in his attitude to Kate (most likely jealousy due to his confusion about the kiss, and his disappointment that Kate is spending time and being close with Sawyer, and also his belief that he heard Sawyer tell him that he loved Kate) in refusing to let her come along with the hunting party.

I thought it was wonderful how they portrayed Sawyer's priorities as soon as he saw Kate was in trouble. That man went from wanting revenge to wanting to kill Zeke if he harmed one hair on her head but being beside himself with worry for her as well. He was the one who received her, he was the one who untied and ungagged and comforted her. Jack looked like he was more annoyed that she'd disobeyed him and mucked up his plan. In my opinion. And when Sawyer offered his quiet support for her after she was treated so harshly by Jack when she was begging for him to forgive her, I think it showed that what was more important than causing problems with Jack was his concern for her emotional wellbeing.

Sawyer has been through hell, and nearly died. It's pretty clear that his relationship with Kate has grown even closer because of this, and perhaps he is closer to admitting his very real and deep feelings for her. He hasn't displayed overtly jealous behaviour like Jack has because he has always assumed he wasn't in the running with perfect Jack the doc around. That is obviously starting to shift.

I for one am absolutely tickled about how much progress Sawyer showed in this ep, with showing how he cares for and seems to understand Kate, and accepts her for who, and what she is. A strong willed, and sometimes flawed woman who only wants to help. He is protective and yet doesn't try to coddle her to the point of suffocation. In my opinion Jack was out of line to forbid her to go on the trek and was acting out some of his emotional jealousy and need to be in control of the situation and again wanting to fix things himself. He may have rationalised that he was only protecting Kate from danger, but I think it became pretty clear by the end of the episode that he was also punishing her for recent events.

I agree with Joshypoo, LostLaura, and Zoriah. I loved how Sawyer was the mature one in this episode, too. It's pretty clear that Sawyer has developed strong feelings for Kate, even if he can't admit it to himself. He's never been in love before, but I cannot wait until Kate is the *first* person that he falls in love with. It's only a matter of time. He knows her, he understands her, he doesn't try to change her...that respect PLUS the strong chemistry they have equals a winning couple in my book!

Thanks Zoriah. I remember a friend saying to me, You love him - and I'm like.. "what - no way". I moved in with him two months later.

I thought it was wonderful how they portrayed Sawyer's priorities as soon as he saw Kate was in trouble. That man went from wanting revenge to wanting to kill Zeke if he harmed one hair on her head but being beside himself with worry for her as well. He was the one who received her, he was the one who untied and ungagged and comforted her. Jack looked like he was more annoyed that she'd disobeyed him and mucked up his plan. In my opinion.

Yeah, I totally agree. Sawyer receiving Kate and releasing her really got to me.

Whew! Good support, Joshypoo, Zoriah, AFaithL.

I was in denial for a long time about Sawyers remark about loving Kate. I thought either he was delerious or talking about someone else. However, basing my opinions on their previous interaction and the fact that it took some sweet talking from Kate to get him to swallow that pill, I beleive on some subconscious level he does infact love her. I doubt he is aware of this consciously, and I'm sure he would deny it till the cows come home, lol, but I think its there. The way they have been interacting lately is a level of comfort and freindly flirtation is more than just freindship IMO. I think both Sawyer and Kate are venturing on uncharted territory at this point. Neither one, I doubt knows what it takes to be in an honest to goodness relationship and it scares them. So much so, that one or both of them will back away out of fear from getting too close. But I see more between Sawyer and Kate. And I think they are a promising duo. Dire circumstances bring out the best or worst in us all, and I think some characters more than others are starting to realize that.

I think both Sawyer and Kate are venturing on uncharted territory at this point. Neither one, I doubt knows what it takes to be in an honest to goodness relationship and it scares them. So much so, that one or both of them will back away out of fear from getting too close. But I see more between Sawyer and Kate. And I think they are a promising duo. Dire circumstances bring out the best or worst in us all, and I think some characters more than others are starting to realize that.

I so totally agree. It's new for both of them. What ever happens - I can't wait!

I actually think it's plausible he does....

And yet now we see Jack being very mean in his attitude to Kate (most likely jealousy due to his confusion about the kiss, and his disappointment that Kate is spending time and being close with Sawyer
I don't think Jack's attitude was as simplistic as jealousy. I do think his hurt was a factor however, he could have been a jealous *** in the pill scenes of Collision/23rd but he regarded both KS w/kindness, even complimenting her...In addition, in the past Jack has been respectful of Kate's feelings for Sawyer-helping him when Kate asked him to, & reminding her of the raft launching. Which indicates to me there was a lot more motivation at work here.

Imo, it was more about his utter fear that something would happen to Kate, like Mike who they were going out for. Jack didn't bring Christian home alive. So he overreacted in how he was to her.

Actually I'll go against the grain here & support ppl saying Sawyer does love Kate because he didn't disagree or object when Jack got mad at Kate. He simply let Jack be the bad guy.

I thought it was wonderful how they portrayed Sawyer's priorities as soon as he saw Kate was in trouble. That man went from wanting revenge to wanting to kill Zeke if he harmed one hair on her head but being beside himself with worry for her as well. He was the one who received her, he was the one who untied and ungagged and comforted her. Jack looked like he was more annoyed that she'd disobeyed him and mucked up his plan.
Once again I don't think what we were seeing from Jack was more anger @ Kate than the situation. As I've posted: Imo,seeing Kate held at gunpoint flipped a switch in him that said "I can't stand to suffer the loss of someone I care about again"..His eyes started to well & his face contorted in a last struggle for control. It's like he was so paralyzed by fear & consumed w/hatred for Zeke, that he had to snap out of a trance. I don't think he could look at Kate after asking if she was alright because of how affected he had just been.

In conjunction w/the above, he had just essentially failed to bring Michael/Walt home, as he failed to bring Christian back alive. Imo, this augmented his need to detach himself & he's shut down & detached himself emotionally.

Kate was so shocked at how at Jack was because he typically IS so supportive of her.

I for one am absolutely tickled about how much progress Sawyer showed in this ep, with showing how he cares for and seems to understand Kate, and accepts her for who, and what she is. A strong willed, and sometimes flawed woman who only wants to help. He is protective and yet doesn't try to coddle her to the point of suffocation. In my opinion Jack was out of line to forbid her to go on the trek and was acting out some of his emotional jealousy and need to be in control of the situation and again wanting to fix things himself. He may have rationalised that he was only protecting Kate from danger, but I think it became pretty clear by the end of the episode that he was also punishing her for recent events.
I can agree Sawyer loves Kate...but argument as to why Sawyer outed her has been inclusive of that it was for her own good and he was trying to protect Kate from going on a suicide mission. So I have to question why that is ok & Jack is condemned.

I was in denial for a long time about Sawyers remark about loving Kate. I thought either he was delerious or talking about someone else. However, basing my opinions on their previous interaction and the fact that it took some sweet talking from Kate to get him to swallow that pill, I beleive on some subconscious level he does infact love her. I doubt he is aware of this consciously, and I'm sure he would deny it till the cows come home, lol, but I think its there. The way they have been interacting lately is a level of comfort and freindly flirtation is more than just freindship IMO. I think both Sawyer and Kate are venturing on uncharted territory at this point. Neither one, I doubt knows what it takes to be in an honest to goodness relationship and it scares them. So much so, that one or both of them will back away out of fear from getting too close. But I see more between Sawyer and Kate. And I think they are a promising duo. Dire circumstances bring out the best or worst in us all, and I think some characters more than others are starting to realize that.

The pill scene is a great point. Subconsciously, it took Kate kissing Sawyer's forehead and sweetly talking to him to get him to take the pill. Was Sawyer consciously aware that Kate was cuddling him? Nope! But his subconscious reacted to her, and thus he was able to swallow the pill.

I don't know if Sawyer is in love with Kate yet. And frankly, I don't care. I DO know that he cares a great deal for her, and that Kate will be the first for him when he actually does fall in love. So if Sawyer's not in love with Kate yet, it will only be a matter of time before we get to see that glorious even unfolding.

What I was NOT impressed with was Kate following Jack around like a little girl wanting approval from her daddy. Her character disintegrated to a whiny, clingy 4 year old girl who is upset that her daddy got mad at her. It was not a pretty sight. It actually made me sick.

But I did like how Sawyer reassured Kate that he would have done the same thing.

Coming in late in this thread...to drop off my own two cents about the matter...

I don't know whether or not Sawyer LOVES Kate yet...I really don't. I definitely think he has strong, strong feelings for her. I think that Sawyer is really unsure about love...he doesn't have very much experience with it, and he doesn't understand what it feels like. With Kate...he's starting to feel things that he's not comfortable or familiar with...and I think they're definitely in the "love realm" ;).

When Jack made the "you love her" comment...Sawyer was bewildered for one major reason. He doesn't remember saying it! To him...that comment came out of the blue...because he's never acted outrightly (especially around Jack) in a way that would indicate that his feelings for Kate were that deep. So of course he was confused that Jack would make that comment. He didn't realize he'd been talking in his sleep ;)

Also...if what Sawyer feels for Kate is indeed love...he is not fully aware of how to define his feelins...nor does he want to yet. He's in a certain amount of denial right now.

What I was NOT impressed with was Kate following Jack around like a little girl wanting approval from her daddy. Her character disintegrated to a whiny, clingy 4 year old girl who is upset that her daddy got mad at her. It was not a pretty sight. It actually made me sick.

I understand why people are having issues with that bit, but at the same time, trying to put myself in Kate's shoes, it's totally understandable. Since day one, Jack has been very supportive of Kate, kept her criminal past secret, offered her friendship and kindness, and treated her with respect. Jack has only been annoyed/mad at Kate once or twice. And yet those fews times are nothing compared to how mad and frustrated Jack was last night with her. Jack is Kate's rock on the island, the one person who has been there for her since day one. I think it hurt her deeply to see him so mad at her. She was following him desperately trying to make things better - she doesn't know how to deal with Jack angry at her.

Kate just needs to realize Jack's fear for her safety is manifesting itself as anger :)

I think I'm of two minds about it at this point, but I'm leaning more towards 'he WAS speaking of Kate'.

He told her, during their "I, Never" game, that he's never been in love. And when he whispered "I love her" to Jack, he was delirious. His subconscious was speaking the truth, and I think his subconscious, which had been hearing Kate's voice for the past several hours while he slept, was definitely focused on Kate. He responded to her, took the pill when she told him to...and when he heard Jack's voice, he asked "Where is she?", wanting to know where Kate had gone. So I'm pretty convinced that the "I love her" was in reference to Kate...he just didn't realize what he was saying/admitting.

When Jack told him "I know, you love her", Sawyer was shocked. I think he's in love with her...but he didn't begin to recognize that fact until Jack threw it on the table so blatantly. Seeing her being held captive by the Others may have sparked something as well. The question now becomes, will he acknowledge it, or brush it off and "snark" it away, as he often does?

Just my $.02. :smile:

Also Josh Holloway was quoted as saying the Kate was the motivation to keeping him alive

My $.02 :)
For the record, we don't even know if that was "Sawyer" saying "I love her". It could have been Wayne. Transference, anybody?
Nope, I don't think I buy that. Jack was alone with Sawyer at the time, Kate was not there. And it was Kate doing the whole 'transference' thing, Sawyer for Wayne...Jack had nothing to do with that.

Why would 'Wayne' have revealed himself to Jack, especially if he were only some sort of figment of Kate's imagination? :confused:

No, I'm 100% convinced that it was Sawyer confessing love for someone...the only question is: who? :)

Also Josh Holloway was quoted as saying the Kate was the motivation to keeping him alive
Really? Where? I don't remember that, would love to read it!!

Also Josh Holloway was quoted as saying the Kate was the motivation to keeping him alive

Makes perfect sense to me!

Okay, I just rewatched the relevant scenes from HP to see if I had misinterpreted any of the character nuances. I admit I had some doubts about my first assessment that Sawyer is not in love with Kate, since in all the months I've been reading this board I can't remember any previous issue in which I disagreed with Banshee.

After further review, I have to say that I still think my initial impression was correct (Sorry Banshee ;) ). I do not believe that Sawyer is in love with Kate. During the 'You love her' scene, Sawyer's bewilderment at Jack's statement did not seem to be 'My God, he knows! What could possibly have given me away?' It seemed much more along the lines of 'How in God's name did he come up with a crazy idea like that?'

And in the campfire scene, when they first bring Kate out, Jack becomes distraught, it's clearly written on his face, but Sawyer simply glares at Zeke even harder. Even at the last moment, he hesitates, reluctant to give up his gun even though it would mean Kate's death to refuse. After Zeke has gathered up the guns, he shoves Kate at Sawyer, who is standing in the middle between Jack and Locke, which is the only reason that Sawyer is the one to untie her. Even while she's being untied, Kate's attention is focused completely on Jack, pleading with him for understanding for what she tried to do.

As for Sawyer's 'This ain't over' statement, I kind of think Michael deserves the first crack at Zeke, Sawyer can finish off whatever leftover pieces there are. On the other hand, perhaps being Captain Ahab to Zeke's White Whale might be a good role for Sawyer to play. It would finally give him something to do on the island other than handing out nicknames and serving as static in Jack and Kate's relationship.

Of course, in the end we're all at the mercy of the writers. A few episodes from now, they could decide that Sawyer is in love with Kate after all, and write it into the script. We might as well have some fun discussing it until they bring down the curtain on the matter.:smile:

Even at the last moment, he hesitates, reluctant to give up his gun even though it would mean Kate's death to refuse

Sorry, but Jack is the one who let the count get almost to 3 before he dropped his gun. He was contemplating letting Kate die.

And it doesn't matter to me if Sawyer is currently in love with Kate or if it's leading up to him being in love with her in the future. He cares deeply for her, and it's enough for me. Unlike Jack, Sawyer didn't turn away from her. Unlike Jack, Sawyer didn't give a disappointing, "I'm sorry too" when Kate was apologizing. Unlike Jack, Sawyer actually expressed concern for Kate.

After further review, I have to say that I still think my initial impression was correct (Sorry Banshee ). I do not believe that Sawyer is in love with Kate. During the 'You love her' scene, Sawyer's bewilderment at Jack's statement did not seem to be 'My God, he knows! What could possibly have given me away?' It seemed much more along the lines of 'How in God's name did he come up with a crazy idea like that?'
]

Even being a Skate I would tend to agree......I dont even think that Sawyer is aware that he loves Kate...Sawyer admitted to Kate during an all out truth session that he has never been in love.....Sawyer ,I take it at this point in life doesnt really believe in love...or at least the need to have in it your life...
So with that said, its not far off to think that Sawyer would look at Jack like.."Where the hell did you come up with that"
BUT Sawyer was unconscence when he said he loved her.....As a nurse myself, I can tell you stories and probably secrets I have heard when patients have been semi conscence

Even being a Skate I would tend to agree......I dont even think that Sawyer is aware that he loves Kate...Sawyer admitted to Kate during an all out truth session that he has never been in love.....Sawyer ,I take it at this point in life doesnt really believe in love...or at least the need to have in it your life...
So with that said, its not far off to think that Sawyer would look at Jack like.."Where the hell did you come up with that"
BUT Sawyer was unconscence when he said he loved her.....As a nurse myself, I can tell you stories and probably secrets I have heard when patients have been semi conscence

Yep, I totally agree. It's his subconscious talking. He probably isn't even aware of it himself. And he would vehemintly deny it until the cows come home, even if it was true.

Sorry, but Jack is the one who let the count get almost to 3 before he dropped his gun. He was contemplating letting Kate die.

And it doesn't matter to me if Sawyer is currently in love with Kate or if it's leading up to him being in love with her in the future. He cares deeply for her, and it's enough for me. Unlike Jack, Sawyer didn't turn away from her. Unlike Jack, Sawyer didn't give a disappointing, "I'm sorry too" when Kate was apologizing. Unlike Jack, Sawyer actually expressed concern for Kate.

Whoa..Awesome comparision between Jack and Sawyer

Funny how the tables have turned for this 2........You would have thought the con man woul d be showing more concern for the girl then the leader, the annointed on, the leader of the island

Sorry, but Jack is the one who let the count get almost to 3 before he dropped his gun. He was contemplating letting Kate die.

And it doesn't matter to me if Sawyer is currently in love with Kate or if it's leading up to him being in love with her in the future. He cares deeply for her, and it's enough for me. Unlike Jack, Sawyer didn't turn away from her. Unlike Jack, Sawyer didn't give a disappointing, "I'm sorry too" when Kate was apologizing. Unlike Jack, Sawyer actually expressed concern for Kate.
Jack is someone who has shown consistent support & concern for Kate, keeping her secrets no matter how angry he has gotten, holding her when she's cried, giving her seeds after being betrayed & finding out she was a killer. That history still remains.

In all fairness how Sawyer treated Kate in BTR can also be viewed as inappropriate behavior.

And Sawer did take a moment as well before he put it down even with the gun pressed to her neck.

If you watch Jack's face when seabillie was counting it's like he was paralyzed. You can see a marked reaction in Matt's acting that he had to "snap out of it" . There's no way he would have let Kate die in his right mind imo. That's never been who Jack is. And how did Zeke know about the lines Jack has crossed in his past? Did he have some kind of mental hold over him? He knew darn well how messed up it would make Jack to see Kate that way...Michael sure as heck wasn't acting like himself & with Sawyer being possessed by Wayne there's too many open ended questions imo.

Another thing to consider about Jack as someone pntd out-he has conditioned himself to count to 5 in reacting to fear. Zeke took away 2 secs which could have played into him having to get a grip faster than he could.

Sorry, but Jack is the one who let the count get almost to 3 before he dropped his gun. He was contemplating letting Kate die.

I respect everyone's opinions, but I must disagree. Jack is a doctor - commited to saving lives and doing no harm. And Kate is one of the people he is closet to on the island. We've seen him and Kate hanging out and enjoying each other's company time and again - the golfing scenes, the dinner scene, etc etc. There was no way Jack, who cares so much about everyone and who gave so much of himself to save Boone, who he wasn't half as close to, there was no way he was going to let them kill Kate. Yes, he did take a few seconds to put down the gun. But as Banshee said, he wasn't comprehending at first and had to snap out of it. Being in that kind of situation and being blackmailed to save the life of a friend must be horrendous and shocking. Jack just needed a few seconds to get over the shock.

And I think the same would be true if it was anyone, not just Kate. Jack would never let anyone die. Sawyer and Locke weren't going to let her die either, yet they took a few seconds to lower their weapons too. I just don't see how it's logical considering what we know about Jack's nature and what we know about his friendship with Kate that letting her die was ever in his mind.

I'm not sure there should be a debate over who loves Kate: Jack or Sawyer. I'm just not feeling the chemistry between Kate and Jack. I'm not 100% a SKater girl...I just tend to see more hints in that direction.

I think Jack's problem is that he doesn't let himself get so involved. He feels very distant. I'm not sure if that's Michael's acting style or what, but that's the way Jack seems to me. His relationship with Sarah felt dead before it even started, and I'm not feeling chemistry between him and Kate, either. Until he learns to be less uptight and distant, I don't think he's going to have any successful romantic relationship.

But Sawyer's scenes with Kate? There are almost visible sparks popping. There's a LOT of tension there, and I think those two characters have the "lightening" it takes. Now, Sawyer has a lot of opening up to do, too. He still needs to come to terms with his past, but just because he doesn't believe in love doesn't mean it can't happen to him. He does feel like he's a little more in the moment (Jack seems always to be thinking of something else at the same time--preocupied, you might say.).

Just as important is Kate herself. Why all the discussion/debate over Sawyer and Jack. Kate's happiness and emotions with a romance matter just as much as the guy's. I think that while Jack is a supportive guy, Kate would feel stifled in a relationship with him, just as Sarah did. He's got too many other demands on his time, and to expect her to be waiting there for him when he finally managed to come home, well, it may be too much to ask. I see Sawyer's ability to take things into stride (though with no small amount of sarcasm) to be more compatible with her. I see Kate as someone, more like Sawyer, who lives in the moment, rather than for the future the way Jack does.

In that scene with "Zeke" that everyone is talking about, I do not think there was anything to accurately measure anyone's love for Kate, or, just as importantly, Kate's love for anyone else. It was a high-tension situation. The seabilly may or may not have been using some form of mind control. People's brains needed time to process everything and it was happening too fast. I don't think anyone present was planning on letting Kate die. I think they took more time than they should have to lower their weapons, but everything happened so quickly that they probably needed a couple seconds to catch up.

Jack is someone who has shown consistent support & concern for Kate, keeping her secrets no matter how angry he has gotten, holding her when she's cried, giving her seeds after being betrayed & finding out she was a killer. That history still remains.

In all fairness how Sawyer treated Kate in BTR can also be viewed as inappropriate behavior.

And Sawer did take a moment as well before he put it down even with the gun pressed to her neck.


Jack doesn't just keep Kates secrets he keeps others aswell like Sun's, he is the master secret keeper. I dont believe that him keeping her secrets means that they must be together.

I am glad that Sawyer acted the way he did in BTR because it showed to Kate that he isn't a push over like Jack. She was after all trying to steal his spot and making it look like Sawyer was the one who poisoned Michael.

Sawyer's nature isnt to back down but to take on every one of SOB's. Also he didn't really hesitate, he sighed, told Zeke they ain't finished then dropped the gun. I didn't see any hesitation.

The way Sawyer reacted to Kate's capture, I have no doubt that he's in love with her.

Ditto.

I understand why people are having issues with that bit, but at the same time, trying to put myself in Kate's shoes, it's totally understandable. Since day one, Jack has been very supportive of Kate, kept her criminal past secret, offered her friendship and kindness, and treated her with respect. Jack has only been annoyed/mad at Kate once or twice. And yet those fews times are nothing compared to how mad and frustrated Jack was last night with her. Jack is Kate's rock on the island, the one person who has been there for her since day one. I think it hurt her deeply to see him so mad at her. She was following him desperately trying to make things better - she doesn't know how to deal with Jack angry at her.

Kate just needs to realize Jack's fear for her safety is manifesting itself as anger :)

Was I the only one sickened by the blatant and completely unnecessary groveling Kate was doing? I understand she felt bad, and she apologized, admitted her mistake...but the outright groveling? Miss me with all that. :rolleyes:

Was I the only one sickened by the blatant and completely unnecessary groveling Kate was doing? I understand she felt bad, and she apologized, admitted her mistake...but the outright groveling? Miss me with all that


No you are not. That was so pathetic and not like the Kate we have known for the first 50 days and I felt she didn't have to say sorry she only trying to help. To mean that scene seem like a child begging her father for rebelling against his wishes.

No you are not. That was so pathetic and not like the Kate we have known for the first 50 days and I felt she didn't have to say sorry she only trying to help. To mean that scene seem like a child begging her father for rebelling against his wishes.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I took away from it.

I went to a 'Lost' watching party last night (don't ask) and after that scene, all the women in the room groaned and had pretty much the same reaction, "Oh, stop with the groveling already. It's unattractive." :lol:

It's not the first time we've seen the disapproving/controlling/angry father figure vs contrite/regressed/hand-in-the-cookie-jar little girl dynamic with Jack/Kate before and I doubt it will be the last. And yes, I dislike it immensely and feel it is unhealthy for both of them.

Was I the only one sickened by the blatant and completely unnecessary groveling Kate was doing? I understand she felt bad, and she apologized, admitted her mistake...but the outright groveling? Miss me with all that. :rolleyes:

No you aren't. I was sickened by Kate's groveling at Jack's bootstraps, too. It was disgusting.

There is no doubt in my mind that Sawyer does love Kate. I think it was a big step for him to choose not revenge in shooting Zeke but to put his gun down to save Kate. Obviously being separated from her at the beginning of this episode has made him re evaluate his feelings for her and just like Josh said she was his motivation to survive and get back to their side of the island

Jack and Sawyer both take longer to drop their guns because they've both been personal victims of the Others (Jack & Ethan; Sawyer & Zeke/seabillies) and are still in revenge mode before their brains kick in and realize they have to surrender to save Kate. Both care for Kate and neither would let her or any of the Losties die like that. Sawyer puts out a look-after-number-one-first kind of guy persona (defense mechanism) but he tried to defend Walt during his kidnapping. He didn't have to do that. Sawyer also wanted to fight Eko when Michael, Jin and he were trapped in the pit.

I think Sawyer was channeling Wayne when he said "I love her," but it's hard to know for sure. That was such a strange scene. Certainly, Jack saying he knows Sawyer loves Kate would be an out-of-the-blue statement for Sawyer since he'd have no recollection of saying such a thing and if he were to reveal that info to someone, it sure wouldn't be Jack!

Sawyer's never been in love so anyone saying so would be weird. I think Sawyer and Jack are attracted to Kate and she to them but there's a lot of confusion and their personal baggage is in the way.

I think that Sawyer is maybe falling in love with Kate, but he would never openly admit it, especially to Jack. That's why he said "What?!" when Jack told him "I know... You love her". I think that Sawyer's interest in Kate is out of question. He likes her, but Love is a big thing and I'm not sure he's already 'in love' with her.
Also, I wonder if Sawyer would be equally attracted by Kate if Jack didn't exist. Easy situation are not funny, or might give less motivation... :rolleyes:

On the opposite, I was expecting Kate to walk close to Sawyer, but no, she's behind, desperately begging Jack for forgiveness. If I was Sawyer, I would be 'slightly disappointed' that my brand-new gal-pal is groveling 'the other guy'.

After further review, I have to say that I still think my initial impression was correct (Sorry Banshee ;) ). I do not believe that Sawyer is in love with Kate. During the 'You love her' scene, Sawyer's bewilderment at Jack's statement did not seem to be 'My God, he knows! What could possibly have given me away?' It seemed much more along the lines of 'How in God's name did he come up with a crazy idea like that?'

Yes...he did look like "how in God's name did he come up with that?"...but I don't think that is at all related to whether or not he love's Kate. It's merely because that statement coming out of Jack's mouth was COMPLETELY out of the blue. If Jack had never heard Sawyer talking in his sleep...he would never have made a comment like that. Sawyer has indicated several times openly that he's attracted to Kate...but he's never really shown that he has deeper feeling for her around Jack. So of course he's completely bewildered as to why Jack would make a statement like that. Being bewildered by something...does not negate the posible truth of a statement.


And in the campfire scene, when they first bring Kate out, Jack becomes distraught, it's clearly written on his face, but Sawyer simply glares at Zeke even harder. Even at the last moment, he hesitates, reluctant to give up his gun even though it would mean Kate's death to refuse. After Zeke has gathered up the guns, he shoves Kate at Sawyer, who is standing in the middle between Jack and Locke, which is the only reason that Sawyer is the one to untie her. Even while she's being untied, Kate's attention is focused completely on Jack, pleading with him for understanding for what she tried to do.

I also couldn't disagree with this statment more. When they bring out kate...of COURSE Sawyer glares even harder. And that's a perfect indication of how much he cares for Kate. Jack wears a certain type of emotion on his face...Sawyer wears a different type. How many times have you seen Sawyer get overly emotional to the point of looking like he's going to cry. Not many on the island. That doesn't mean he's not as conflicted internally...it just means he has a different way of expressing it. I think saying about someone "you touched one hair on her head and I'll..." is a DAMN good indication that they mean a lot to you. Sawyer is an angry person and he reacts that way. If Zeke had hurt Kate, Sawyer would have lost it for sure...just in a different way than Jack. And he didn't really hesitate before handing over his gun...he just paused to let Zeke know he wasn't done with him...while he was dropping the gun off.

I don't fault Jack...but he also waited before handing his gun over. The thing is that it makes sense for both of them to hesitate. It has nothing to do with not caring about Kate...it's because in a high pressure situation like that...how do you really know what the best thing to do is? Zeke says if you drop your guns he'll let her go...how do you know he's telling the truth? What if they all dropped their guns and he blew her brains out and they were powerless to stop it? I'm SURE that thought occured to both Sawyer AND Jack. They(along with Locke) were probably desperately going over their options in their head...

As for Sawyer's 'This ain't over' statement, I kind of think Michael deserves the first crack at Zeke, Sawyer can finish off whatever leftover pieces there are. On the other hand, perhaps being Captain Ahab to Zeke's White Whale might be a good role for Sawyer to play. It would finally give him something to do on the island other than handing out nicknames and serving as static in Jack and Kate's relationship.

That's just your opinion...and I hardly think that his only purpose on the island is to mess with jack and kate's relationship. You may be a Jater...but there are plenty of other people who think Sawyer and Kate's relationship is more dynamic and intersting. Their interaction on screen has been just as important as Jack and Kate's in any event...

I love the Jack/Kate/Sawyer love triangle.

I think both men care for Kate deeply and Kate likes both men for different reasons.

Sawyer is selfish, volatile, passionate and at times irrational. He acts first and thinks later and he doesnt like to rely on anyone but himself. I think he has alot of love to give but I think he needs to be needed in a relationship, he needs to feel he is protecting someone and I dont think that Kate quite fits the bill. she is more than capable of looking after herself and I think Sawyer may find that a bit intimidating.

Jack on the other hand is a thinker - he is an analyst who uses reason and logic to ***** a situation. Sure he does fly off in reckless abandon at times but on the whole he is reasoned and stable. As so rightly put by Sarah he needs to fix people and Kate, bless her, needs alot of fixing. She needs to feel safe, she needs to trust and she needs someone who will listen to her and stop her from hurting herself (i mean emotionally and physically) and others around her. Jack can fill that role where Sawyer cannot.

Sawyer and Kate would be a very passionate relationship - they have similar characters and their relationship would be very highly charged but I fear it would be short lived. It would be one of those cant live with you but cant live without you relationships and those, in my experience, never work out. Both Kate and Sawyer have trust issues,both are very independant and head-strong and put the two of them together you have enough dynamite to blow open all 6 hatches on the island.
Jack and Kate would be a far less passionate relationship, more stable but would be more likely to last long term.

But its up to the writers and after all it is TV where anything can happen - and usually does.

Jack and Kate would be a far less passionate relationship, more stable

LOL! I agree, which is why I have zero interest in a Jack/Kate relationship. I go for passionate intensity, combined with playfulness. Jack and Kate bore me to tears because they don't have the chemistry necessary to sustain the kind of relationship I enjoy watching. If I wanted to watch a "friendship" type relationship with stability, I would watch my parents. Instead, I prefer passion, intensity, playfulness, and lots and lots of chemistry. Which is why I enjoy the Sawyer/Kate dynamic.

Jack and Kate do less than nothing for me. They have the chemistry of curdled milk.

It's not the first time we've seen the disapproving/controlling/angry father figure vs contrite/regressed/hand-in-the-cookie-jar little girl dynamic with Jack/Kate before and I doubt it will be the last. And yes, I dislike it immensely and feel it is unhealthy for both of them.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion so I can't begrudge that...If we're being frank I have found there to be a power struggle, demeaning, objectifying, you hurt me I hurt you dynamic with Kate/Sawyer which I also haven't found healthy. As of late they have been different with each other for the better. And Jack/Kate have been having issues for the worse, so they've both had their pros/cons at pnts imo.

It's not a personal thing & I obviously don't intend it to be as such, we just have strong opinions on how the dynamics differ. I've supported the idea that Sawyer loves Kate.

He was certainly quick to comfort her, at least make her feel a little better about what happened. I think he genuinely cares about her. Love....it's overrated. Caring's much better and less strings attached. :biggrin: :p

When Sawyer said "I love her", it could very well be the typical Lost situation where Jack presumed Sawyer was reffering to Kate, but in actual fact S was thinking about another girl from his past, someone who will appear later in flashback.

When Sawyer said "I love her", it could very well be the typical Lost situation where Jack presumed Sawyer was reffering to Kate, but in actual fact S was thinking about another girl from his past, someone who will appear later in flashback.
That's what I'm thinking too, quangtran. There was supposed to be a Sawyer flashback episode earlier this season but it got switched for a Michael one and
Jolene Blalock is supposed to guest star as a "woman from Sawyer's past." Since that episode was supposed to happen before Sawyer said "I love her," I'm wondering if maybe he doesn't mean her.
It would be very Lost-ish to have Sawyer mean one thing, but have Jack interpret it another way, as its creating all sorts of drama. Also, I don't neccessarily believe Sawyer was being truthful when he said he'd never been in love before. Time will tell, I suppose!

So if we put another Lostie in Kates place. Let's pick Libby, she didn't just kill one of them and no one is pissed at her. Or Sun, maybe Claire.
Some of you think the reaction would have been different. Jacks mouth wouldn't have fallen open? Sawyer wouldn't have said, If you hurt one hair on her head?

I have no problem seeing the same reaction from both of them, with any one of those women in Kates place.

Right now I'm leaning toward me Tarzan you Jane reaction. They both wanted to save her, no matter who the "her" is

When they bring out kate...of COURSE Sawyer glares even harder. And that's a perfect indication of how much he cares for Kate.
:thumb_up:

And to anyone who truly believes that Sawyer was only, in that moment, interested in revenge on Zeke, I recommend they watch that scene very, very carefully. During the close-up shots of Sawyer...watch his eyes, how they flick from Kate, to Zeke, and back again. That is, if the threatening "if you touched a hair on her head..." wasn't indication enough... ;)

I was just wondering if anyone else out there still had any doubt that Sawyer actually does love Kate. He was delirious in the episode "What Kate Did" and just by saying 'Where is she' and 'I love her' everyone assumed he was talking about Kate. Yes, she was with him a lot but he was unconscious most of the time and still could've been thinking about someone from his past. Part of me does truly think that Sawyer loves her but there's a part of me that still doubts it. And even in "The Hunting Party," it is never resolved between Sawyer and Jack when Jack says to me, "I know, you love her." I just have this weird feeling that everyone is hyping it up too much. He may like her...but I don't feel LOVE there yet because it's too soon and they haven't had enough time to really connect and fall for each other. Does anyone else see my point?

I have no doubt in my mind that Sawyer has VERY strong feelings for Kate - I'm not going to say love because I do think it's too early for that but the strong feelings are there. The look on his face when he saw that Kate had been captured said it all. He would kill anyone who hurt her!!

If you are going to assert that Sawyer doesn't consciously love Kate, but instead, sub-consciously loves her, there's no way I can debate that point, since it is untestable based on any evidence that can be presented through the show. Short of one of the castaways hypnotizing Sawyer and getting him to definitively say 'I love Kate', there's no way for us to know what Sawyer's subconcious is telling him. Being primarily a 'Man of Science', I'll withdraw from speculating on that matter and allow you 'Men of Faith' the consolation of believing that interpretation.

As for the vicious anger that's being directed at Kate on this thread, I'm afraid I just can't understand that point of view at all. She knows she made a mistake, and she knows that she deeply hurt Jack, the man she loves, and wants to try to make amends to him, to get him to understand why she did what she did, why she's driven to try to help others. I believe that's why she was so desperate to talk to him on the way back, and why it hurt her so much when he shut her out. During the campfire scene, Jack was nearly paralyzed with fear at the thought of Kate being hurt. But he was still called upon to make a split second decision, and it seemed that the only way he could continue to function was to close himself off emotionally. I think that's one of the reasons Kate was so upset on the hike back, she knew that Jack was behaving in such an un-Jack like way, and was trying to reach out to him, to try to 'fix' him. I just don't see how that can be seen as Kate being 'pathetic'. But then, I've like the character of Kate since the pilot, so I'll admit that that's certainly coloring my view of the matter.


Being bewildered by something...does not negate the posible truth of a statement.

Quite true, that in itself doesn't negate the statement, but I believe it still counts as a piece of evidence that goes toward negating the statement.

I also couldn't disagree with this statment more. When they bring out kate...of COURSE
Sawyer glares even harder. And that's a perfect indication of how much he cares for Kate.

I'm having a little trouble seeing how you can make the connection between the second sentence and the third sentence. When the campfire scene began, Sawyer was glaring at Zeke, clearly straining at the leash to get revenge for having been shot on the raft. Then Kate is brought out, and Sawyer's response is to glare at Zeke even harder. I'll certainly concede the point that Sawyer's hatred of Zeke rises a notch or two when a friend of his is directly threatened, but Sawyer's focus still seems to be entirely on getting revenge on Zeke. He just has an additional reason for revenge. That's the point I was trying to make. If you choose to interpret that scene as a 'perfect indication of how much he cares for Kate', then there's probably very little I can say that will dissuade you.


LOL! I agree, which is why I have zero interest in a Jack/Kate relationship. I go for passionate intensity, combined with playfulness. Jack and Kate bore me to tears because they don't have the chemistry necessary to sustain the kind of relationship I enjoy watching. If I wanted to watch a "friendship" type relationship with stability, I would watch my parents. Instead, I prefer passion, intensity, playfulness, and lots and lots of chemistry. Which is why I enjoy the Sawyer/Kate dynamic.

Jack and Kate do less than nothing for me. They have the chemistry of curdled milk.

It's amazing how two rational people can watch the same show, and yet draw the exact opposite conclusions from it. In my view, there is no passion or playfulness in Sawyer and Kate's relationship. There is a desire to dominate, to injure, to ensure that the other feels as badly as they themselves feel. I simply have no desire to watch that. But from their very first scene, Jack and Kate have displayed an amazing chemistry together, a chemistry that builds upon itself, and grows stronger rather than simply burning itself out. You talk about playfulness? Nothing can beat Jack and Kate's dinner date, the shower scene, the golfing scene. These are scenes of people truly enjoying each others company, without one trying to dominate the other.

And as for passion, I believe that Jack and Kate have demonstrated the kindess and caring for each other that is the foundation for true passion. True Love isn't about lust, it's about letting someone completely into your life, about putting someone else ahead of your own needs. In my opinion, that's what Jack and Kate's relationship will lead to, and what I have difficulty believing Sawyer and Kate will ever achieve.

But, this is just my opinion. Obviously, others have come to different conclusions. I wish that people of all views can watch and enjoy the show and have some fun debating the issues with un-like minded people. So, to conclude. I don't believe the preponderance of evidence indicates that Sawyer is in love with Kate. There is no doubt he considers her a friend, and the writers may force the story in that direction in the future, but I believe that's where Lost stands today.

they bothe dont know what the heck they want:biggrin: :cool: :hypocrit:

It's amazing how two rational people can watch the same show, and yet draw the exact opposite conclusions from it. In my view, there is no passion or playfulness in Sawyer and Kate's relationship. There is a desire to dominate, to injure, to ensure that the other feels as badly as they themselves feel. I simply have no desire to watch that.
Not to be argumentive, but...the first Kate/Sawyer scene in THP, with the banana...you didn't see that as playful?

That was flirting at it's finest! ;)

Not to be argumentive, but...the first Kate/Sawyer scene in THP, with the banana...you didn't see that as playful?

That was flirting at it's finest! ;)

Or Sawyer and Kate dunking each other at the waterfall. Or Kate cutting Sawyer's hair. How ironic that those "playful" moments are ignored and discounted. :rolleyes: But, Jack's anger at Kate for not "listening to daddy" when he selfishly demanded that she not use her skills for finding Michael, the way he wouldn't even LOOK at her after she had been kidnapped, but turned his back on her when she was scared and frightened, is being justified and explained away. :rolleyes:

Or Sawyer and Kate dunking each other at the waterfall. Or Kate cutting Sawyer's hair. How ironic that those "playful" moments are ignored and discounted. :rolleyes: But, Jack's anger at Kate for not "listening to daddy" when he selfishly demanded that she not use her skills for finding Michael, the way he wouldn't even LOOK at her after she had been kidnapped, but turned his back on her when she was scared and frightened, is being justified and explained away. :rolleyes:Sawyer didn't speak up about allowing Kate to come on the hike because he agreed with Jack & knew it was going to be dangerous. He just let Jack look like the bad guy....Wanting her not to get hurt is both selfish & selfless....As I've mentioned before Jack is being condemned for things Sawyer has done himself. It's been argued he outed her for her own good, & to protect her from a suicide mission. But he dumped her things on the beach & walked away from her leaving her dejected & ostracized.

Maybe Jack does have more motive for looking away than oversimplified anger. He asked if she was alright so obviously he was concerned. Perhaps he was so affected by what had just happened, in being terrified he almost lost her not to mention seeing Sawyer hovering over her, that he didn't want her to notice what he was feeling.

Maybe Jack does have more motive for looking away than oversimplified anger. He asked if she was alright so obviously he was concerned. Perhaps he was so affected by what had just happened, in being terrified he almost lost her not to mention seeing Sawyer hovering over her, that he didn't want her to notice what he was feeling.
Perhaps - - or perhaps it was more anger, though not necessarily "oversimplified". He could certainly have been angry at her for several reasons: not minding him and staying behind and staying safe, like a good girl; putting herself in a dangerous situation; or throwing a wrench into his plan and causing him to have to lay down arms.

In the TV Guide interview, Matthew Fox said that Jack felt "betrayed" by Kate, but if that's what he was referring to, then I don't understand why...not for her simply following the hunting party. As Locke suggested...who is Jack to tell anyone what to do? I mean, who died and made him Ed McMahon of the Island? IMO, Kate shouldn't have been apologizing so profusely, running after Jack and searching for his forgiveness...she needs to rise above, if for no other reason than to knock him down a peg or two. And if that's the situation that pushes Jack more towards Ana...that makes him feel "betrayed" by Kate...well...all I can say is :confused:

What I didn't like was Jack' s tone and the way he said "Are you alright", obviously I know he is concerned for her safety but his tone and the way he said it bothered me and don't know how to interpret it.

Totally of topic IceKat55 your avi is so fantastic. I love it

Not to be argumentive, but...the first Kate/Sawyer scene in THP, with the banana...you didn't see that as playful?

That was flirting at it's finest! ;)
That scene is actually a good example of what I'm talking about. Kate began it in a playful manner, and that certainly seemed to be her intent, but Sawyer quickly ramped up the scene by becoming more aggressive, and invaded Kate's personal space more than she was comfortable with. He turned the encounter into a power game. Sawyer appeared to be challenging Kate to match his intensity or back off. She chose to back off. That seems to me to be indicative of the way most of their 'playful flirting' goes.Contrast this with the Shower Scene, where Jack, despite considerably more provocation on Kate's part, chooses to remain playful for the entire encounter, clearly realizing that their relationship was not yet ready to move to the next stage.

That scene is actually a good example of what I'm talking about. Kate began it in a playful manner, and that certainly seemed to be her intent, but Sawyer quickly ramped up the scene by becoming more aggressive, and invaded Kate's personal space more than she was comfortable with

I actually thought she was pretty comfortable in that scene, in fact she was flirting right back imo. But its as you said earlier two people can watch the same show and in this case the same scene and come away with two totally different perspectives on it, and we are probably biased because of which couple we ship.

That scene is actually a good example of what I'm talking about. Kate began it in a playful manner, and that certainly seemed to be her intent, but Sawyer quickly ramped up the scene by becoming more aggressive, and invaded Kate's personal space more than she was comfortable with. He turned the encounter into a power game.
Whaaaa...? Did you see the grin she had on her face after she pulled him to his feet? That was no power game...it was playful flirting, plain and simple. As was their frolicking at the waterfall, as was their banter during the haircut...and numerous other examples/looks between them.

If Kate felt threatened or uncomfortable with Sawyer, or wanted to walk away from him, then at any given moment, she would. But I think that her feelings for him are meant to be fairly obvious, if confused. She all but admitted them herself, in the WKD episode. She nursed him, sitting by his bed night and day, cradling him, holding his hand, stroking his hair...that's not a power game...that's pure emotion.

Totally of topic IceKat55 your avi is so fantastic. I love it
Thanks, isn't it awesome? The very talented Jo over at FanForum made a bunch of them!

In the TV Guide interview, Matthew Fox said that Jack felt "betrayed" by Kate, but if that's what he was referring to, then I don't understand why...not for her simply following the hunting party. As Locke suggested...who is Jack to tell anyone what to do? I mean, who died and made him Ed McMahon of the Island? IMO, Kate shouldn't have been apologizing so profusely, running after Jack and searching for his forgiveness...she needs to rise above, if for no other reason than to knock him down a peg or two. And if that's the situation that pushes Jack more towards Ana...that makes him feel "betrayed" by Kate...well...all I can say is :confused:
That same interview Matt also stated about the ep :

"You realize he cares so freaking much for her (Kate), that he's unwilling to allow himself to get attached to anything that will cause him hurt. He's really pushing her away."

Which can be applied to the motive I stated. That his reactions & not speaking to her on the way home can be a result of him realziing how much he cares for her after seeing her held at gunpoint, & wanting to emotionally detach himself so he doesn't hurt anymore.

Imo, anger is oversimplfied as the solitary reason for his behavior....I think he was more incensed by the helplessness he felt & the fact he had allowed himself to fall for someone again...He was "betrayed" in WTCMB as well & found out Kate was a killer. Yet in the next ep he gave her seeds as an olive branch. I felt Kate owed Jack an apology in that instance... He was more upset by the prospect of not being told the truth or feeling like he was being shut out, such as with the WKD "hug" scene, than he was anything Kate "did". That coupled w/the above would seem to indicate there is more behind things than feeling betrayed in this ep.

In terms of the tone Jack said I'm sorry, I think it clearly impled him being sorry their relationship didn't work out as he hoped it would. Meaning he was ready to embrace the romantic aspect but felt she had made her choice w/Sawyer & that after today, he couldn't bare to lose another person. This same theme was being juxtaposed in his FB w/Sarah. Difference being here he has shut down emotionally. In addition, his father did just die & he failed to bring Michael/Walt home as he had failed to do w/Christian.

That scene is actually a good example of what I'm talking about. Kate began it in a playful manner, and that certainly seemed to be her intent, but Sawyer quickly ramped up the scene by becoming more aggressive, and invaded Kate's personal space more than she was comfortable with. He turned the encounter into a power game. Sawyer appeared to be challenging Kate to match his intensity or back off. She chose to back off. That seems to me to be indicative of the way most of their 'playful flirting' goes.Contrast this with the Shower Scene, where Jack, despite considerably more provocation on Kate's part, chooses to remain playful for the entire encounter, clearly realizing that their relationship was not yet ready to move to the next stage.

Perhaps we are watching two different shows...because at what point did Kate look like her personal space was invaded? Kate started flirting with him by tossing the fruit at him...and then making a joke about it being better than a rock. Then YES Sawyer made a light-hearted sexual joke...as men and women have been doing with eachother for years. And Kate did not at all respond negatively to it. None of her body language indicated that she was uncomfortable or that she was not having fun in the situation. When he got up and got really close to her...there was tons of sparks, and she didn't look intimidated.

When Sawyer first started messing with Kate...he was doing it DELIBERATELY to make her feel uncomfortable...to challenge her...I'd agree with that. Because she was a strong woman and he was attracted to her...and he felt like if he could turn that attraction into a purely sexual thing...just get under her skin with the inneundo, it wouldn't really affect him.

But after that kiss...it was a completely different game...because he realized that there WAS something more to feel. He realized that she had gotten to him emotionally, despite his best efforts.

When Sawyer and Kate joke around now...they are always on equal terms. And there ARE roles to play within that...but neither of them seem put off by that. Sawyer will make a sexual joke...Kate will roll her eyes and laugh...it's harmless...and since she continues to hang around Sawyer...she's clearly enjoying herself.

If Kate wasn't enjoying it...she wouldn't be there. She's tough, and she would never put up with situations she didn't want to be in.

I think that sawyer is attracted to kate...but I think "in love" w/ her is a stretch. I also dont think that jack is "in love" w/ kate. i think that he cares deeply for her...but I dont think that he will allow himself to feel "in love" because of how he has been hurt in the past.I really dont think that he (sawyer) meant kate when he was unconscous...thats just what they (the writers) wanted jack to believe....to further the love triangle angle. I also dont think kate knows yet what she wants. i think she is interested in both jack & sawyer...in different ways & for different reasons. I dont think that either of their reactions to kate being held by zeeke is any indication of how much/how little either of them care for her. Its was obvious they both care for her...yet nothing they did "proved" that they live or dont love her. And as for kate "groveling"....well...in my opinion...she should. Not that I think that she needed to listen to jack...she could have stood up to him...and said ...Im coming...whether you like it or not. But following on her own was just plain stupid. Not only did it cost them the possiblity of finding michael....she put herself in danger. Jack was angry...and he had every right to be.

Nope, I don't think I buy that. Jack was alone with Sawyer at the time, Kate was not there. And it was Kate doing the whole 'transference' thing, Sawyer for Wayne...Jack had nothing to do with that.

Why would 'Wayne' have revealed himself to Jack, especially if he were only some sort of figment of Kate's imagination? :confused:

No, I'm 100% convinced that it was Sawyer confessing love for someone...the only question is: who? :)

I don't think it was Wayne either, for the same reason, but I thought it was worth noting. So I did. :) After WKD aired, this board was full of people asking "Was it Sawyer? Was it Wayne? What about the Marshall--was he channeling the Marshall?" I agree that it's Sawyer, but I think TPTB made it ambiguous. That was my point.

That scene is actually a good example of what I'm talking about. Kate began it in a playful manner, and that certainly seemed to be her intent, but Sawyer quickly ramped up the scene by becoming more aggressive, and invaded Kate's personal space more than she was comfortable with. He turned the encounter into a power game. Sawyer appeared to be challenging Kate to match his intensity or back off. She chose to back off.

You're kidding, right?? Kate was grinning ear to ear! Kate chooses to be in situations she chooses to be in. She was definitely enjoying herself and the flirting that was going on.

You're kidding, right?? Kate was grinning ear to ear! Kate chooses to be in situations she chooses to be in. She was definitely enjoying herself and the flirting that was going on.
I'm not even remotely kidding. Well, I'm as serious as anyone discussing the events on a fictional television show can be. :) That's the way I see that scene as playing out. It's right there on the screen. I can't imagine what filters you must be viewing the show through to miss this.
But after that kiss...it was a completely different game...because he realized that there WAS something more to feel. He realized that she had gotten to him emotionally, despite his best efforts.
As intimidating as it is to disagree with someone who has nearly 7,000 posts to their name, I believe this is completely wrong. In my opinion, Sawyer was at his most vicious toward Kate in the struggles for the Halliburton case in WTCMB, which occurred well after the kiss in CM.

Just for the record, I think the whole 'Wayne possessing Sawyer' thing was all in Kate's head. I think the strangling, 'Why did you kill me', 'Where is she', and 'I lover her' stuff was Sawyer dredging up memories and feelings from his past. Hopefully, his next flashback episode will clear up at some of these mysteries.

I only got halfway thru this thread so I apologize if this was mentioned, but at the end of BTR Sawyer challenges Kate to admit that she feels the same way about him that he feels about her re; his leaving the Island

Kate: Why is it so important for YOU to get on that raft?

Sawyer: Because there aint nothin here worth stayin for (as he stares her down, waiting for a reply)

He made it plain he wanted to split because she was choosing Jassack over him-and he had WAY more in common with Kate than Jassack-and it hurt him.
He loves her-and was seeking a reaction from her. Who else could he love? The mother of the baby he finds annoying? The ex-cop who brained him with a rock?

I'm not even remotely kidding. Well, I'm as serious as anyone discussing the events on a fictional television show can be. :) That's the way I see that scene as playing out. It's right there on the screen. I can't imagine what filters you must be viewing the show through to miss this.

You know what...you're entitled to your own opinion, and you have every right to interpret all the scenes on Lost as you see fit. I don't doubt that you're an intelligent and critically thinking person...and if you saw the Sawyer/Kate scene from the last episode in a different light, it's certainly a valid viewpoint.

HOWEVER, it's not the only viewpoint...and it's certainly not the right viewpoint. Every scene is up to interpretation...and I'm sure there are just as many people watching who saw it differently. I spend a good deal of my time analyzing television shows because I studied it in school...and am currently trying to get into the TV business. I watched that scene several times...and I didn't come to the same conclusions you did. In my estimation Kate was very much enjoying the flirtation session. Sawyer was playing around with her...and she engaged him completely. And that doesn't mean they'll live happily ever after ;)...but all it means is that many people saw that scene in a very positive, fun light.

To suggest that people who don't see things the way you do...are viewing the show through filters...is (and no offence intended) incredibly arrogant.


As intimidating as it is to disagree with someone who has nearly 7,000 posts to their name, I believe this is completely wrong. In my opinion, Sawyer was at his most vicious toward Kate in the struggles for the Halliburton case in WTCMB, which occurred well after the kiss in CM.

Well...we'll have to disagree again...because I don't see Sawyer's actions in WTCMB as vicious at all. Sawyer and Kate are very physical with eachother...but they're equally matched. Kate is very agressive with him...she shows no qualms about it. And he's not afraid to try to beat her at her own game. It IS about power to a certain extend...but it's not harmful or vicious...it's just agressive. It's part of who they are with eachother.

Kate tried to grab the case (which she stupidly told him he could have because she didn't want to explain) from him...so he forcefully stopped her...making some quips along the way. Then she headbutted him and was annoyed that she still couldn't get the case. For the rest of the time...they were playing a cat and mouse game. Kate wanted something...and Sawyer didn't want to give it to her. And neither was really more or less entitled. Kate's a very strong woman...and Sawyer knows that...so he doesn't pull punched with her. I actually really appreciate that aspect of their dynamic.

And in my opinion...Kate doesn't really mind either. It frustrates her that he won't give her what she wants all the time, but it challenges her as well. He's not a pushover and that's exciting in many ways. Just take a look at the glance she gave him when he climbed the tree and she stole the case. He told her not to take it...and she cave him this coy smile that said "I dare you to catch me". It WAS a game that she enjoyed playing on some level. She wanted that case badly...but she was definitely engaging in the whole "chase" scenario because she likes to fight for control as much as Sawyer does. The fact that they're both devious and occassionally ruthless is something they have in common.

And YES...that episode was way after the kiss...and the dynamic WAS different than before. At this point...Kate wasn't just some hottie he was messing with. She was somebody who got under his skin, who fascinated him...who he was really starting to enjoy sparring with. Look at how he was with her in the beginning of the episode. They were both smiling and flirting like crazy at the waterfall. Tell me Kate didn't want to be there...having fun with him.

Just for the record, I think the whole 'Wayne possessing Sawyer' thing was all in Kate's head. I think the strangling, 'Why did you kill me', 'Where is she', and 'I lover her' stuff was Sawyer dredging up memories and feelings from his past. Hopefully, his next flashback episode will clear up at some of these mysteries.

I agree that Wayne never possessed Sawyer. I think Kate was losing it a little...due to stress.. As for "I love her"...I don't know whether or not he meant to refer to Kate. He very well could have been talking about someone else. But that doesn't change the fact that he COULD love Kate. Just because he wasn't speaking of her in that instance...doesn't mean he has no strong feelings for her.

He made it plain he wanted to split because she was choosing Jassack over him-and he had WAY more in common with Kate than Jassack-and it hurt him.
He loves her-and was seeking a reaction from her. Who else could he love? The mother of the baby he finds annoying? The ex-cop who brained him with a rock?

And I think he was disappointed in her reaction because he knows she has feelings for him and in her confession to Wayne hopefully he heard that she does

You know what...you're entitled to your own opinion, and you have every right to interpret all the scenes on Lost as you see fit. I don't doubt that you're an intelligent and critically thinking person...and if you saw the Sawyer/Kate scene from the last episode in a different light, it's certainly a valid viewpoint.

HOWEVER, it's not the only viewpoint...and it's certainly not the right viewpoint. Every scene is up to interpretation...and I'm sure there are just as many people watching who saw it differently. I spend a good deal of my time analyzing television shows because I studied it in school...and am currently trying to get into the TV business. I watched that scene several times...and I didn't come to the same conclusions you did. In my estimation Kate was very much enjoying the flirtation session. Sawyer was playing around with her...and she engaged him completely. And that doesn't mean they'll live happily ever after ;)...but all it means is that many people saw that scene in a very positive, fun light.

To suggest that people who don't see things the way you do...are viewing the show through filters...is (and no offence intended) incredibly arrogant.




Well...we'll have to disagree again...because I don't see Sawyer's actions in WTCMB as vicious at all. Sawyer and Kate are very physical with eachother...but they're equally matched. Kate is very agressive with him...she shows no qualms about it. And he's not afraid to try to beat her at her own game. It IS about power to a certain extend...but it's not harmful or vicious...it's just agressive. It's part of who they are with eachother.

Kate tried to grab the case (which she stupidly told him he could have because she didn't want to explain) from him...so he forcefully stopped her...making some quips along the way. Then she headbutted him and was annoyed that she still couldn't get the case. For the rest of the time...they were playing a cat and mouse game. Kate wanted something...and Sawyer didn't want to give it to her. And neither was really more or less entitled. Kate's a very strong woman...and Sawyer knows that...so he doesn't pull punched with her. I actually really appreciate that aspect of their dynamic.

And in my opinion...Kate doesn't really mind either. It frustrates her that he won't give her what she wants all the time, but it challenges her as well. He's not a pushover and that's exciting in many ways. Just take a look at the glance she gave him when he climbed the tree and she stole the case. He told her not to take it...and she cave him this coy smile that said "I dare you to catch me". It WAS a game that she enjoyed playing on some level. She wanted that case badly...but she was definitely engaging in the whole "chase" scenario because she likes to fight for control as much as Sawyer does. The fact that they're both devious and occassionally ruthless is something they have in common.

And YES...that episode was way after the kiss...and the dynamic WAS different than before. At this point...Kate wasn't just some hottie he was messing with. She was somebody who got under his skin, who fascinated him...who he was really starting to enjoy sparring with. Look at how he was with her in the beginning of the episode. They were both smiling and flirting like crazy at the waterfall. Tell me Kate didn't want to be there...having fun with him.



I agree that Wayne never possessed Sawyer. I think Kate was losing it a little...due to stress.. As for "I love her"...I don't know whether or not he meant to refer to Kate. He very well could have been talking about someone else. But that doesn't change the fact that he COULD love Kate. Just because he wasn't speaking of her in that instance...doesn't mean he has no strong feelings for her.

I agree. Remember, Kate GRINNED at Sawyer up in the trees when she grabbed the case from him. But she's still a sociopath not to be underestimated.

I agree. Remember, Kate GRINNED at Sawyer up in the trees when she grabbed the case from him. But she's still a sociopath not to be underestimated.

Apparently to some people, SMILING and LAUGHING with Sawyer *actually* means Kate is...disgusted? threatened? mad that he's invading her personal space? LOL! And touching Sawyer playfully? Why, that must mean Kate is repulsed! :rolleyes:

I can't imagine what filters you must be viewing the show through to miss this.

Apparently the same filters many, many, many other people are viewing it through.:cool:

Evangeline Lilly (Kate) - 2005

"I try to analyze the situation as realistically as possible and I can only see Kate and Sawyer growing closer from what's happened. If Sawyer gets back to the island, they should have a new sense of value in each other. They say if you love something, let it go, and then see what happens from there. Not only did they break physically, but they really broke ties emotionally before they left. You see them both gazing out across the beach before they left, looking for each other, so they clearly play a significant part in each other's lives. I also think that what Sawyer gives to Kate is a sense of normalcy and mutuality.When she is around Sawyer, suddenly who she is doesn't have to be hidden and I think she's less ashamed of it. I think she is more able to say, "This is who I am. Take it or leave it, buddy!'' That's a real gift. In real life, usually the people we feel the most in love with and attracted to are the people that allow us to be ourselves- faults and all."

I must say, I agree with Evie's take on the Sawyer/Kate situation!

I think Sawyer was hallucinating about someone else, and Jack concluded
on his own, it was Kate he was muttering about it.

However, I do think Sawyer cares a great deal for Kate; Jack seems to
have stepped aside for him under the assumption it was Kate, Sawyer
spoke of. That's my take on it, any way.

I agree that Kate sometimes is drawn to Sawyer b/c he is someone that she can relate to. Around him she feels that she can not try to be someone else. Sawyer doesn't challenge her to be better. This would all be fine if Kate was fine with how she was, but she isn't. Kate doesn't like who she is right now...she was running not only from the law but from herself.

We know that b/c of what happened with Wayne, Kate feels that she can never be good and also can never be good enough for Jack. If Kate didn't have feelings for Jack, she wouldn't care if she was good enough for him or not. She would be satisfied with Sawyer.

The thing is is that Kate isn't satisfied with who she is. She yearns to be good and to feel good about herself. I don't think that Jack or Sawyer can do this for her. She has to do it on her own, however, Jack has been the only person who has treated Kate like she can be the person she wants to be. I know that some people see Jack's treatment of Kate as condescending and rude, but if Jack is hard on Kate, it is only b/c he sees her potential. Jack treats Kate like an equal whereas Sawyer treats her as an object.

I do believe that Kate and Sawyer would benefit greatly from being friends, but has there ever been one scene b/w them the entire series that shows an emotional connection? Sure, there have been lots of cutesy friendly scenes like getting the case and her giving him a haircut, but a real relationship is so much more than that. Sawyer and Kate have an attraction to each other and a bond of friendship. However, just b/c they come from similar backgrounds does NOT mean that they understand each other.

Jack is the one who understands Kate's need to be good and her vulnerable side. Jack sees all the good in Kate and he doesn't want to see her settle for anything less than that. Jack and Kate connect on so many levels. They have those cutesy scenes also...the golf game, the tatoo talk, the food by the fire scene. They also have meanigful scenes also...him telling her that his dad died, her telling him the plane belonged to the man she loved and killed, him giving her gauva seeds, her saying, "Without you Jack." The list goes on and on. Kate does not have to be someone else when she is with Jack.

Kate is herself when she's around Jack, but b/c of Kate's own insecurities, she sometimes feels that she can't measure up to Jack. Over time, Kate will come to realize that Jack accepts her for who she is and only wants her to be truthful to him.
Bottom line: Sawyer and Kate have the makings of a life-long friendship. Jack and Kate have the makings of a life-long love of a lifetime.

This would all be fine if Kate was fine with how she was, but she isn't. Kate doesn't like who she is right now...she was running not only from the law but from herself.

We know that b/c of what happened with Wayne, Kate feels that she can never be good and also can never be good enough for Jack. If Kate didn't have feelings for Jack, she wouldn't care if she was good enough for him or not. She would be satisfied with Sawyer.


Good point, jenrae! I think that who dialogue about "I'm sorry I'm not as perfect. I'm sorry I'm not as good" shows for one what high regard Kate holds Jack in as well as how low her self-esteem is in some ways. She thinks of Jack as being good in a way she in Sawyer are not. Remember she tells Sawyer "You're actually comparing yourself to Jack?" Kate obviously holds Jack in the highest regard. Since she doesn't hink of Sawyer in that way, as being that good, I don't think he will be able to help her better herself, become good, and get rid of the Wayne she still sees in herself.

I think Sawyer and Kate do connect in a lot of ways and I do like their relationship. But Kate is obviously plagued by feelings of worthlessness and self-loathing as we learned in WKD. I definitely think she and Sawyer care about each too much to not continue on as friends, but I think it will be Jack Kate turns to for the adult relationship and self-esteem she needs and wants.

I do believe that Kate and Sawyer would benefit greatly from being friends, but has there ever been one scene b/w them the entire series that shows an emotional connection? Sure, there have been lots of cutesy friendly scenes like getting the case and her giving him a haircut, but a real relationship is so much more than that. Sawyer and Kate have an attraction to each other and a bond of friendship. However, just b/c they come from similar backgrounds does NOT mean that they understand each other.


Well it's obviously completely subjective...and we all have our favourite ships...or thoughts on who belongs with who :)

But I just had to comment on this point in particular. I strongly disagree that there havn'et been any scenes which show a deep emtotional connection between them. In Confidence Man we saw the first real evidence of that. Kate tried to get Sawyer to listen to reason....saying she understood him...and she managed to really get at him...enough to make him react in anger. Then there was the kiss...which when Sawyer initially suggested it, was intended as a joke, or an obnoxious suggestion. But somehow after all he'd been through in that episode...it started to matter a great deal to him. And when it actually happened...they both got caught up in it, and it went on longer than intended, with Kate pulling away with difficulty. There was clearly a connection there that neither of them bargained for...and it wasn't just physical. The script itself has writers notes which make clear that they both felt a strange connection in that moment. And after that...Kate figured out the truth about Sawyer's letter...and he opened up to her about his past...and what he's struggling with. It was a very emotional scene. So much so that Sawyer had to snap out of it and tell her to get out because he wasn't comfortable with her feeling for him.

We also had the incredibly intense drinking game in Outlaws which started off as playful...but ended up getting very deep. Intially they were just having fun, but it very quickly became an environment where they called eachother on personal issues and essentially forced eachother to admit certain truths that they didn't have to elaborate on...but in the context of the game, they had to own up to. I can't see how that could be considered un-emotional given the intense looks they both wore as the game became more serious...and the ultimate reveal that they had both killed someone. The fact that even during a silly game, they revealed that to eachother...means that they had to feel connected enough to bother.

Those are just two examples...but there is plenty of other evidence which suggests an emotional connection. The fire scene in Born to Run for example, or even the Golf scene in Solitary. That scene may feel light-hearted...but it was really about Kate offering to help a fellow outcast, because she understood how hard it was for him to reach out. Or how about Kate sitting up worrying about him in Collision and What Kate did? There was certainly emotion on her part there. Or what about them both being too stubborn to say goodbye and yet upset that they didn't in Exodus? Kate getting emotional when she thought Sawyer might be dead in ...and found?

I think the writer's have gone out of their way to show that kate and Sawyer have similar experiences...but ALSO understand eachother very well.

There ARE plenty of light-hearted playful moments as well...especially recently because things have been rather calm since Sawyer got back in terms of their interaction. They are a nice place where they're getting comfortable just having fun around eachother. That doesn't mean that the deeper emotion isn't there...and won't surface again.

QueenElessar...I apologize for sounding too sure of myself when saying that there are no emotional scenes b/w Kate and Sawyer. I guess I should have worded it differently. Those two have definitely had some heated scenes, but I'm not sure "heated" merits "connection."

In the two scenes you mentioned, I see Kate giving to Sawyer, but Sawyer not really giving anything back. I agree that the kiss was definitely heated, but is there conclusive evidence to rule it much more than lust? I'm not trying to offend, but truly trying to understand your POV. Also, the scene with the letter is another example of Kate reaching out and Sawyer taking but not giving anything back. The golf course scene is the same way. I often feel that Kate is drawn to Sawyer b/c she recognizes that he deseperately needs someone to reach out to him. He tries to push everyone away, but Kate is always there no matter what, even when he treats her badly. I just don't see Sawyer really giving anything back to her.

Also, Kate reaching out to Sawyer is not enough evidence to say that she is in love with him. Kate is a compassionate and caring person, and she feels that Sawyer will respond and listen to her. IMO Kate has been instrumental in helping Sawyer realize that there are people out there who can be true friends through thick and thin.

I don't deny that they do have a connection on some level. However, it is Jack that Kate is drawn to without really knowing why. It's Jack that is always first and foremost on her mind. I know this is just my opinion and we'll probably never agree, but I just wanted to let you know that I don't see the relationship b/w Kate and Sawyer as unsubstantial or only based on lust. Their relationship has true meaning and a good foundation for friendship. I just don't see the makings of a meaningful and life-long love.

I agree that the kiss was definitely heated, but is there conclusive evidence to rule it much more than lust? I'm not trying to offend, but truly trying to understand your POV.
Just diving in on this point...because yes, IMO, there is conclusive evidence.

POV's about the first Kate/Sawyer kiss will of course be different for everyone...some will see it as Sawyer being manipulative (which he was), some will admit that Kate responded, but it was pure lust...but I think it's important to consider what the writers intended for that scene...

Notes from the draft of the Confidence Man script, scene -- The Kiss:

And here is the first kiss on LOST.

What makes it interesting is that even though it starts out as a chore -- a necessity -- somewhere about three or four seconds in, it becomes something ELSE. And just before it actually goes from something else to REAL . . .

Kate pulls away.

And we milk this delicious moment afterward for all it's worth. And despite the insanity of the circumstances under which it happened, both of them felt something. Finally -- and when Sawyer talks to her now, it's softer -- that kiss did something to him -- some of his swagger is gone -- he's just a man now --

SAWYER
I don't have it.
No matter how we viewers saw it on an individual level, the writers intended for both Sawyer and Kate to feel something substantial in their first kiss. :smile:

I think it's way to early to tell. I think Sawyers reaction would have been the same no matter which Lostie had a gun to their head. These people ONLY have each other and they have a clear enemy. That makes your feelings toward those on your side that much stronger.

Definitely agree you!

I have never been one for carnival rides! this show surely satifies any need for them for me!
I love this adventure! havent had this much fun since i watched "days of our lives" in the mid 80's!
I find myself standing in front of the TV watching, reacting, and speaking as if they can hear me!
any way, I think kate is trapped between two boys.
like living between them, which one do you like the most.
and she is still chosing!

QueenElessar...I apologize for sounding too sure of myself when saying that there are no emotional scenes b/w Kate and Sawyer. I guess I should have worded it differently. Those two have definitely had some heated scenes, but I'm not sure "heated" merits "connection."

I agree that heated doesn't always mean connection...for sure :). But in my opinion it did coincide in most of the scenes you mentioned.

In the two scenes you mentioned, I see Kate giving to Sawyer, but Sawyer not really giving anything back. I agree that the kiss was definitely heated, but is there conclusive evidence to rule it much more than lust? I'm not trying to offend, but truly trying to understand your POV. Also, the scene with the letter is another example of Kate reaching out and Sawyer taking but not giving anything back. The golf course scene is the same way. I often feel that Kate is drawn to Sawyer b/c she recognizes that he deseperately needs someone to reach out to him. He tries to push everyone away, but Kate is always there no matter what, even when he treats her badly. I just don't see Sawyer really giving anything back to her.


Interesting...because I actually saw the opposite...lol. I saw Sawyer mostly as the giver...and Kate being a little more closed off, but still contributing. In the letter scene, Kate found out the truth...and for some reason Sawyer just told her his life story with no holds barred. That's pretty open. YES, he shut down afterwards, but after being completely guarded and then spilling like that...it's a natural reaction for someone like Sawyer. She seemed to understand that...because she didn't push him and gave him his space. And they were on really good terms in the next episode. Secondly during "I never" it was SAWYER who took the game to a personal level. They were talking about fun things and he brought up "I've never been in love"...like he wanted to share that with her. And he seemed to be asking her questions that would get her to open up..but in turn allow him to open up in return and gets some things off his chest. I thought HE was really driving that game...

As for the kiss...I think the way it was played on screen...with the intense stares and the look of "what just happened" they both wore...indicates it was more than lust. BUT also I've seen the script with writer's notes...which highlighted that the scene should be played like they were both feeling a strange connection. Plus, when it's been discussed by the writer's they mention what an emotionally charged moment it was.

Also, Kate reaching out to Sawyer is not enough evidence to say that she is in love with him. Kate is a compassionate and caring person, and she feels that Sawyer will respond and listen to her. IMO Kate has been instrumental in helping Sawyer realize that there are people out there who can be true friends through thick and thin.

I didn't say Kate loves Sawyer...I don't think she does...BUT I don't think she loves Jack either. I think Kate has deep feeling for both of them. I'm not denying she shares something with Jack...but it's my personal opinon that her and Sawyer understand eachother more.

I don't deny that they do have a connection on some level. However, it is Jack that Kate is drawn to without really knowing why. It's Jack that is always first and foremost on her mind. I know this is just my opinion and we'll probably never agree, but I just wanted to let you know that I don't see the relationship b/w Kate and Sawyer as unsubstantial or only based on lust. Their relationship has true meaning and a good foundation for friendship. I just don't see the makings of a meaningful and life-long love.

Yeah, again...shipping is a very personal thing...lol...we'll never agree ;). I don't think it's necessarily that Jack is first on Kate's mind...I think it's that Kate is drawn to Jack becauase he's "good" and she really wants his respect because she seems herself as really needing to be good...and Jack can make her that by association. I've always said that it's Jack's respect that she wants and doesn't always get...but continually strives for..and it's Sawyer's understanding she GETS but sometimes rejects because she's afraid of accepting that part of herself...her darker nature. That's just my personal opinion and I know many Jack/Kate fans see it totally differently

In the two scenes you mentioned, I see Kate giving to Sawyer, but Sawyer not really giving anything back. I agree that the kiss was definitely heated, but is there conclusive evidence to rule it much more than lust? I'm not trying to offend, but truly trying to understand your POV. Also, the scene with the letter is another example of Kate reaching out and Sawyer taking but not giving anything back. The golf course scene is the same way. I often feel that Kate is drawn to Sawyer b/c she recognizes that he deseperately needs someone to reach out to him. He tries to push everyone away, but Kate is always there no matter what, even when he treats her badly. I just don't see Sawyer really giving anything back to her.

Ah, the continuous debate of which man stands truer in Kate's murderous, manipultive heart. It is quite the quandary. :D

While I whole-hearted agree that Kate recognizes that Sawyer desperately needs someone to reach out to him, but to say Sawyer hasn't given Kate anything in return, I have to respectfully disagree.

You mentioned the letter in 'CM', and Kate reaching out to Sawyer and him not giving back. He divulged his darkest, most painful experience with a virtual stranger--leaving himself completely vunerable, entrusting her with a knowledge that not only does he carry a great bitterness about, but I would imagine he considers very shameful in a way.

He may not have wanted her pity, but he was making an effort to reach out and connect none-the-less by giving her something real.

In addition to that, Sawyer also offers Kate a forum, if you will, to give in to her more impulsive, playful, competitive nature. Yes, it's very much a cat and mouse game, junvenile in its nature somewhat, but so what? It's fun, they obviously both enjoy it because they cater to it quite often, and obviously respect one another for the banter.

Every interaction, or conversation between them doesn't have to have this deep, emotional, philosophical connoctation in order for it to be considered "meaningful" or real. It could be that the fun, light-hearted teasing and playfulness of the moment is all they really need to be comfortable with being around the other and to feel a little more connected.

Different things work for different people. One isn't better than the other, just different.

Also you mentioned, or someone mentioned in a previous post, Jack sees Kate for what she can be, her potential, and there's nothing wrong with that. For all intended purposes, it's a very good thing. However, Sawyer seeing Kate for who, and what she is which is good, and just as important and vital. Mutuality, whether in a romantic or platonic relationship is very important and beneficial for development and its substantial growth.

We can't assume that just because Sawyer views Kate in that way now, he doesn't expect, or won't expect more from her as their friendship/relationship continues on.


Also, Kate reaching out to Sawyer is not enough evidence to say that she is in love with him. Kate is a compassionate and caring person, and she feels that Sawyer will respond and listen to her. IMO Kate has been instrumental in helping Sawyer realize that there are people out there who can be true friends through thick and thin.

Again, I agree. Kate has been instrumental in helping Sawyer realize that people on the island can be his friend as well, and hopefully that will continue. But none of that necessarily means she's "in love" with Sawyer. No more than Kate's obvious need for approval from Jack means she's "in love" with him either.

Kate's a very conflicted person, period, even outside of the feelings she's developed for both men. In a way, I feel sorry for her because I think her character, sadly, has only been defined in the context of her emotional issues with men. I'd love to see her break-away from that shadow and find whatever absolution, redemption or acceptance for herself, on her own.

I don't deny that they do have a connection on some level. However, it is Jack that Kate is drawn to without really knowing why. It's Jack that is always first and foremost on her mind. I know this is just my opinion and we'll probably never agree, but I just wanted to let you know that I don't see the relationship b/w Kate and Sawyer as unsubstantial or only based on lust. Their relationship has true meaning and a good foundation for friendship. I just don't see the makings of a meaningful and life-long love.

Kate's not knowing the "true" reason why she's drawn to Jack or seeks his approval so badly, is true. Because it's more than it being just about Jack himself. On the same note, the real reasons "why" she's attracted to Sawyer really fairs no better. Until Kate figures out the reasons "why" on both fronts, and comes to terms with her issues...this topic, our debates will continue to go on. :)

Isn't this fun? :laugh:

Addendum:

I just noticed that the star status under my icon reads "baggage". Well that sucks. :p

Yeah, again...shipping is a very personal thing...lol...we'll never agree . I don't think it's necessarily that Jack is first on Kate's mind...I think it's that Kate is drawn to Jack becauase he's "good" and she really wants his respect because she seems herself as really needing to be good...and Jack can make her that by association. I've always said that it's Jack's respect that she wants and doesn't always get...but continually strives for..and it's Sawyer's understanding she GETS but sometimes rejects because she's afraid of accepting that part of herself...her darker nature. That's just my personal opinion and I know many Jack/Kate fans see it totally differently
I think though suggesting the only reason Kate is interested in Jack is because she perceives him as good short changes what else he has to offer her. Much in the way that categorizing Sawyer as simply a "Wayne" would not be taking into account the full breadth of KS's relationship & what Sawyer gives.

Kate is not obligated to be romantically inclined with Jack. She has shown interest in him, imo, in that way because it's what's she's felt compelled to do vs. him being a ticket to her redemption. I think she admires the good in him, but he makes her feel good because he believes in the good in her.

I think there's aspects of Kate that Jack "gets" & ones that Sawyer does which is what distinguishes the two dynamics. Imo, Sawyer understands the part of her that acts out of self preservation & hatred, while Jack connects with her vulnerability & self repression.

However, Sawyer seeing Kate for who, and what she is a good thing as well.
Kate is as much the vulnerable woman haunted by her past who broke down in Jack's arms, as she is the person who was driven to murder. I think that is where JK/KSers differ-their definition of who Kate is. Is she all "bad", does she have "good", or is she both.

I think the writer's have gone out of their way to show that kate and Sawyer have similar experiences...but ALSO understand eachother very well.

I totally agree, Queen!


I definitely think Sawyer sees both the good and bad in Kate and accepts BOTH aspects of her personality. To me, that's the big difference between the two guys. Jack wants Kate to be "good". He is disappointed in her when she disobeys him, breaks the rules, etc. Like this last episode when Jack turned his back on her when she "disobeyed orders". Sawyer just wants Kate to be *herself*. If she wants to grab a gun and go with the boys? Fine. If she's killed a man? Sawyer accepts that. He doesn't try to change Kate and make her into the type of person he deems as "worthy" and "acceptable". As Evangeline Lilly said, there's an equality between Sawyer/Kate that just isn't there with Jack. She doesn't have to pretend with Sawyer. She can flip him off, throw rocks/bananas, etc. and not feel like she's being bad. With Jack, she's putting on a show. He just doesn't get her the same way Sawyer does. And I think Evie knows her character pretty well.

I think though suggesting the only reason Kate is interested in Jack is because she perceives him as good short changes what else he has to offer her. Much in the way that categorizing Sawyer as simply a "Wayne" would not be taking into account the full breadth of KS's relationship & what Sawyer gives.

Kate is not obligated to be romantically inclined with Jack. She has shown interest in him, imo, in that way because it's what's she's felt compelled to do vs. him being a ticket to her redemption. I think she admires the good in him, but he makes her feel good because he believes in the good in her.

Absolutely Bansh :)...and I didn't mean to imply that it was as simple as that. I've always understood that Kate and Jack have a connection. There is definitely something there that is about mutual affection and attraction.

I was just responding to the comment that Kate seems more interested in Jack...I just think she sometimes seems more eager for Jack's attention because of what it symoblizes. That's not to say that it's the only aspect of their relationship...but it's something I personally feel is there...and it's why I prefer Kate/Sawyer because there is a different dynamic that in my personal opinion seems more equal.

And that's not to suggest that Jack doesn't respect Kate...I think he does...but it's not up to him to validate her as person, and I get the feeling that she's looking for that from him sometimes.

I know that obviously we will never agree on this...lol...I just wanted to make it clear that I'm in no way denying that kate and jack have a complex dynamic and that there is real affection and feeling there :)

I was just responding to the comment that Kate seems more interested in Jack...I just think she sometimes seems more eager for Jack's attention because of what it symoblizes. That's not to say that it's the only aspect of their relationship...but it's something I personally feel is there...and it's why I prefer Kate/Sawyer because there is a different dynamic that in my personal opinion seems more equal.

ITA.

Kate sees Jack as something she wants to aspire to...she wants to be good enough to deserve him. Sawyer (up to the Wayne/confession scene) represented everything she hates about herself...and she resisted her feelings for him. She admitted as much to 'Wayne'..."Every time I look at Sawyer, every time I feel something for him..." The feelings are already there, but she's been fighting them. She had trouble admitting the truth, because she wants to feel that she deserves "better" than someone like Sawyer/Wayne. And who does she think is "better" than Sawyer? Jack. That much is obvious...she beat herself to pieces as she ranted at Jack, "I'm sorry I'm not as perfect, sorry I'm not as good as you!" I think she truly wants his approval, she truly wants to feel worthy of him. But as Sawyer once told her..."the difference between us [Jack & Sawyer] ain't that big". Kate needs to come to terms with the fact that Sawyer ain't all bad, and Jack ain't the Saint she's come to view him as.

I'm not trying to detract from Jack's character, here...I do like him. But he's flawed, just as they all are, and the sooner Kate realizes and comes to terms with that...the better and better the triangle will get! :biggrin:

I have a question for everyone that's kind of off-topic, but not really. I've talked to some other Jaters about this, but I'd be interested in everyone's opinion! :smile:

So we know the writers are purposefully amping up the Triangle right now. That is obvious by just reading through the last few pages and seeing all the different interpretations, points of view, etc. And I like the Triangle and think it's good for the angst/drama level of the show. However, how long do you guys want it to or think it will continue? I personally hope by the end of the season there's some form of resolution, one way or the other. Triangles are fun, but if they're dragged out too long I think people will start getting annoyed and just want it to end in some way, even if that means Kate and Eko end up together! :tongue1: I'm hoping dear Kate makes up her mind relatively soon!

And IceKat, nice to see a fellow Browncoat kicking around here! :cool:

So we know the writers are purposefully amping up the Triangle right now. That is obvious by just reading through the last few pages and seeing all the different interpretations, points of view, etc. And I like the Triangle and think it's good for the angst/drama level of the show. However, how long do you guys want it to or think it will continue?
I think the writers are sadistically LOVING the triangle conflict, and they're gonna milk it for as long as they can! I do believe we'll see Sawyer & Kate together first, and (much as I hate to say it) some Jack & Ana action...then they'll get Jack & Kate together for awhile...then tear them apart and head back to Sawyer & Kate...etc, etc, etc, back & forth, until the end of the show.

As far as the final outcome? Well, let's just hope they all make it off the island alive... :lol1:

And IceKat, nice to see a fellow Browncoat kicking around here! :cool:
Right back atcha! And BTW, I ADORE your husband!! :biggrin:

she beat herself to pieces as she ranted at Jack, "I'm sorry I'm not as perfect, sorry I'm not as good as you!" I think she truly wants his approval, she truly wants to feel worthy of him. But as Sawyer once told her..."the difference between us [Jack & Sawyer] ain't that big". Kate needs to come to terms with the fact that Sawyer ain't all bad, and Jack ain't the Saint she's come to view him as.
I'd say the reason Kate thinks she isn't good enough for Jack is precisely because he makes her feel like she is. In their first scene: she props up his bravery by self deprecating herself "If that we're me I'd have run for the door." Jack's response was "I don't think that's true, you're not running now." He gave credence to her courage & capability... I have found this to be a thread throughout their dynamic. Further i.e's include him having faith in her to deliver the baby, trusting her to come through helping w/patients as well as asking to have his back. These things are self affirming to Kate which she doesn't feel deserving of. But it's only her perception that she isn't worthy... He was clueless why she said "I'm not as good..." because he doesn't believe it.

Sawyer has started to learn the lesson Jack spoke of in the Red Sox metaphor. His karma has changed because he's learned the value of receiving what you give. He has now in essence become "good". And where I think Jack going through the phase he is now will help Jack/Kate, is that he will walk in her shoes for awhile as the outsider. I think this will make their dynamic more comprehensive to where Jack can relate to all of Kate.

And imo, Kate thinking Jack is a saint is indicative of just how deep her feelings run. Unlike Sarah who seemed to hold Jack to an ideal, ironically I find Kate to be the converse of that. She has seen him participate in torture, lose it, attack ppl, run out w/guns blazing & a host of other things. But she still thinks he's "perfect".

think the writers are sadistically LOVING the triangle conflict, and they're gonna milk it for as long as they can! I do believe we'll see Sawyer & Kate together first, and (much as I hate to say it) some Jack & Ana action...then they'll get Jack & Kate together for awhile...then tear them apart and head back to Sawyer & Kate...etc, etc, etc, back & forth, until the end of the show.

Exactly what I think. Neither of these couples Jack and Kate, Kate and Sawyer will be happy or permantely together or where is the fun to see if they are going to stay that way. I think they will go back and forth, but I have faith that the writer's are going to be smart about it. As far as Jack and Ana I personally am having a hard time seeing them as a romantic couple, I think she serves another pupose, Besides I think in the long run she is going to be with Sayid.

if you saw the Sawyer/Kate scene from the last episode in a different light, it's certainly a valid viewpoint.

HOWEVER, it's not the only viewpoint...and it's certainly not the right viewpoint. Every scene is up to interpretation...and I'm sure there are just as many people watching who saw it differently. I spend a good deal of my time analyzing television shows because I studied it in school...and am currently trying to get into the TV business. I watched that scene several times...and I didn't come to the same conclusions you did.
While I certainly value a good education, :) I don't quite see how this entitles you to decide what the 'right' viewpoint is. Surely, it is future episodes of the show that will determine whether or not my opinions on these issues are correct.To suggest that people who don't see things the way you do...are viewing the show through filters...is (and no offence intended) incredibly arrogant.
I've reviewed all my posts on this thread, and I can honestly say that I don't believe that my posts have been any more impolite than your own have been (no offense intended).Well...we'll have to disagree again...because I don't see Sawyer's actions in WTCMB as vicious at all. Sawyer and Kate are very physical with eachother...but they're equally matched. Kate is very agressive with him...she shows no qualms about it. And he's not afraid to try to beat her at her own game. It IS about power to a certain extend...but it's not harmful or vicious...it's just agressive. It's part of who they are with eachother.
What I meant by 'vicious' is that in this episode Sawyer increased his attempted manipulation of Kate to a very unpleasant level. Watch the way the waterfall scene unfolds. When Sawyer hands the case over to Kate, he still has a slight smile on his face. But soon he sees that although the case is clearly important to Kate, for some reason she doesn't want to admit it. Any semblance of playfulness disappears, and is replaced by a look of cunning calculation. You can actually see the wheels turning in Sawyer's mind as he realizes he's found another hook with which to manipulate Kate (JH does a good job in this scene showing the transition). Sawyer knows that Kate wants the case, despite her obviously false indifference, but he takes it anyway. Old habits die hard and his desire to manipulate Kate outweighs the friendly feelings he has for her.

This is made even more clear in the following tent scene. Kate tries to steal the case, Sawyer stops her, physically harases her, and then tries to goad her into continuing. Kate then flat out asks Sawyer to give her the case. He not only refuses, he gloats about it. From the way Kate looked in this scene, I must respectfully state that I have trouble understanding how a viewer could think she was getting any enjoyment from their battle over the case. I'm sorry, but I just can't see it. 'Cat and Mouse' games tend not to be any fun for the mouse.

It's true that neither of them are 'entitled' to the case, but if a woman who I had feelings for asked me to let her have an object that I had no claim on, I'd let her take it with no hesitation. I certainly wouldn't put her through mental and physical abuse in an attempt to force her to win the object from me. But, that's just me. I'll admit that other men might feel differently. As for the smile she gives him when she grabs the case from the rocks, I interpret that to mean something along the lines of 'You've been trying to mess with me this entire episode, but you failed. Sucks to be you, doesn't it?'

Contrast Sawyer's behavior in this episode with Jack's. Even after Kate tried to scam him with the marshal's key, he kept his word to her and they opened the case together. As soon as Jack found the object Kate wanted, he handed it to her without hesitation. It was only after she chose to open the envelope in front of him (which he didn't ask her to do) and reveal the plane, that he felt he was entitled to demand answers as to why a toy would be worth all this trouble.

To cut matters short. I read your response to jenrae06's post, and
the Golf scene in Solitary. That scene may feel light-hearted...but it was really about Kate offering to help a fellow outcast, because she understood how hard it was for him to reach out.is the only one of your scene interpretations that I actually agreed with. :) I'd rather not try to hash out our differences on every Sawyer and Kate scene, as I feel it wouldn't do much good, and would rather cause the thread to drift a little too far from the forum topic. In conclusion, in this thread, I've tried to present the best arguments I could in favor of my position. Obviously, I've failed to persuade you I'm correct. Assuming that you have also presented your best arguments, you have likewise failed to convince me. We'll have to await further developments to gather fresh ammunition for our causes. :)

Also you mentioned, or someone mentioned in a previous post, Jack sees Kate for what she can be, her potential, and there's nothing wrong with that. For all intended purposes, it's a very good thing. However, Sawyer seeing Kate for who, and what she is which is good, and just as important and vital. Mutuality, whether in a romantic or platonic relationship is very important and beneficial for development and its substantial growth.



I agree
Jack sees Kate's potential..but Sawyer sees Kate, not just the good or just the bad.. just Kate
Its great that Jack sees Kate potential.....but it doesnt mean that Sawyer doesnt
But what has been shown is that Jack doesnt accept Kate's past, and Sawyer without question does......
and it doesnt mean that Kate shouldnt be proud of her past,,but she shouldnt be made to feel ashamsed about it either.....And thats what seems to happen every time Kate disappoints Jack...Kate feels "not good enough" and un worthy of Jack
"..

While I certainly value a good education, :) I don't quite see how this entitles you to decide what the 'right' viewpoint is. Surely, it is future episodes of the show that will determine whether or not my opinions on these issues are correct.

I'm sorry...you misunderstood me. I was not saying that my viewpoint was the RIGHT one...I was saying that neither my viewpoint OR your viewpoint can ever be seen as RIGHT because character analysis is completely subjective. It's the same as reviewing a film...people will agree and disagree and no one's opinion is more valid than anyone else's.

I only mentioned my education...because you stated that you thought that people who saw the Sawyer/kate scene differently from you were viewing the show through filters. I was merely using myself as an exampe to point out that there are plenty of intelligent people, well versed in television who may not see eye to eye with you. They're not viewing the show through filters just because they don't agree with you. That's all I was saying :)

What I meant by 'vicious' is that in this episode Sawyer increased his attempted manipulation of Kate to a very unpleasant level. Watch the way the waterfall scene unfolds. When Sawyer hands the case over to Kate, he still has a slight smile on his face. But soon he sees that although the case is clearly important to Kate, for some reason she doesn't want to admit it. Any semblance of playfulness disappears, and is replaced by a look of cunning calculation. You can actually see the wheels turning in Sawyer's mind as he realizes he's found another hook with which to manipulate Kate (JH does a good job in this scene showing the transition). Sawyer knows that Kate wants the case, despite her obviously false indifference, but he takes it anyway. Old habits die hard and his desire to manipulate Kate outweighs the friendly feelings he has for her.

See this again demonstrates how completely subjective interpretation of any scene is...because I saw that scene COMPLETELY differently. I saw Sawyer flirting with kate...being playful about the case...wanting her to share with him what the big deal was. And when it became clear she was lying to him...his face changed (as you mentioned) and the playfullness sort of fell off it. But in my opinion it wasn't because he was calculating how to mess with her...it's because he was annoyed and little hurt that she was playing games by pretending the case meant nothing...and she sort of refused his offer to let him in on her little secret. In a sense he WAS trying to manipulate her...but it had nothing to do with visciousness. He wanted her to tell him the truth...and when she wouldn't...he was like "okay don't tell me...but you're not getting the case back". And to be fair...she could have had it right off the bat if she hadn't pretended it meant nothing to her. She was too stubborn...and so is he....so it turned into a showdown. Why else would Sawyer offer to give it back if she told him why she wanted it. Because he wanted to KNOW. It bothered him that she wouldn't tell him. It WAS immature of him...but no one ever accused Sawyer of maturity ;). It stemmed from the fact that he was starting to care about her...but he didn't know where to channel that.

But AGAIN...the whole "wrestle for the case" thing...was a game that both of them enjoyed on some level. Otherwise the scene of her smirking at him in the tree would have been totally out of place.

This is made even more clear in the following tent scene. Kate tries to steal the case, Sawyer stops her, physically harases her, and then tries to goad her into continuing. Kate then flat out asks Sawyer to give her the case. He not only refuses, he gloats about it. From the way Kate looked in this scene, I must respectfully state that I have trouble understanding how a viewer could think she was getting any enjoyment from their battle over the case. I'm sorry, but I just can't see it. 'Cat and Mouse' games tend not to be any fun for the mouse.

Well it depends on whether or not you think kate had any right to demand the case from him in the first place. He went under water and retrieved the case for Kate...and all she had to do was admit that it wasn't hers but she still wanted it...and she could have kept it. Instead she TOLD him to just take it because she didn't care. Then she tries to sneak into the place where he sleeps and grab it off him? I don't see what makes her entitled to do that after she told him to go ahead and take it. Hell, I wouldn't hand it over after someone tried to grab it off me. And again, interpretation...but in my opinion, YES kate was annoyed...because she's always annoyed when she can't get her own way...when she comes up against someone as strong and stubborn as she is. But it's also a challenge. She turned around and headbutted him. She can handle Sawyer...and he knows that, so he doesn't pull punches. It may not be everyone's cup of tea...but that's what a lot of people like about them...the fact that they challenge eachother and they don't let eachother get away with crap. I think that's what they both need right now. And if Kate didn't enjoy playing games with Sawyer...if she really felt harassed by him...she'd stop hanging around him. She went out of her way in Outlaws to hang out with him...admitted it to him even...and that was AFTER the case incident :)

It's true that neither of them are 'entitled' to the case, but if a woman who I had feelings for asked me to let her have an object that I had no claim on, I'd let her take it with no hesitation. I certainly wouldn't put her through mental and physical abuse in an attempt to force her to win the object from me. But, that's just me. I'll admit that other men might feel differently. As for the smile she gives him when she grabs the case from the rocks, I interpret that to mean something along the lines of 'You've been trying to mess with me this entire episode, but you failed. Sucks to be you, doesn't it?'

Well he didn't actually fail...now did he? She wasn't able to get the case of him physically...so what does she do? She turns around and makes up a story for Jack. She's a manipulator. And good for him for not backing down to Kate. Even Damon on the DVD said about this episode that kate is more manipulative and dangerous than Sawyer even. She's no innocent. Sawyer stands up to her...I like that. I love kate...but she needs people to stand up to her.

And why is it that when a man is agressive with a woman...it's physical abuse...but when she does it to him...it's not? Remember the time in White Rabbit that she tackled him in the jungle without any warning? Was that okay because she's a woman. Kate is JUST as agressive with Sawyer as he is with her. She's hardly being taken advantage of.

Hi, I just wanted to say how much I’ve enjoyed reading this thread and the interesting analyses that some people have written here. It’s great to have such good defenders for each of both causes, that helps to see better all the possibilities at work.

I just love the three characters and feel bad either for Jack or for Sawyer when it seems Kate prefers the other one. So, whatever the writers decide to do with them is going to be painful for me, somehow. I just hope they keep up the good writing so that we can enjoy this highly emotional ride. However there are a lot of nuances in Kate’s relationships with them that I hadn’t noticed before and so I thank you all people here for sharing your views.

ETA: I see I just got my baggage status on The Fuselage. Isn’t it just appropriate, to get it on this thread?

\

ETA: I see I just got my baggage status on The Fuselage. Isn’t it just appropriate, to get it on this thread?

Haha, that's very very appropriate, Aaronia! :biggrin: