Mr. Eko said that the reason Jesus was baptized and the reason why the spirit of God came down in the form of a dove was because John had washed Jesus's sins away and freed him to do God's work?


WRONG-O!!

Jesus was with out sin from the beginning, he could not be the son of God and sin. See Jehovah is a tri-union being, (3 as well as 1) Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Therefore if Jesus was the son of God, and a part of God, GOD COULD NOT SIN!!!
If God did sin, he would cease to be GOD, and if that happened Goodbye everything. God can not abide even the presence of sin. This is why Jesus came in the first place!!

If Jesus was not just another man, and his blood has freed us, then he had to be perfect! He had to be able to do what we could not. Otherwise (as C.S. Lewis put it) It would be like one child who can not write himself trying to teach another child how to write, it's not possible. The only reason why an adult can teach a child to write is because he is already capable of doing it. If an illiterate adult tried to teach an literate child to write it would be totally useless!

You can not beleive Jesus is the savior and a sinner at the same time, there are no two ways about it.

And if Jesus was just another sinner then he is USELESS to the cause of the human race's salvation.

But praise God, this is NOT the case, Jesus was God and man, and the perfect penitent, and through passing on the new life that was in him (what Lewis called "Good Infection") he as brought new life to those who choose him.


I saw him Jump the Great Boa while he was still alive!
-Mincayani
"End Of the Spear"

BTW I'd Love to see ROSE set Mr. Eko stright.

I mean I realize that as a drug dealer he would have been away from God along time but there's no excuse for that kind of error.

Applause! I posted something similiar in another thread. Eko got it wrong.

I totally agree with everything you wrote here. :) And P.S I just saw "End Of The Spear" very good movie!! :D
Eko did get it wrong..... But I love him anyway! : )

But praise God, this is NOT the case, Jesus was God and man, and the perfect penitent, and through passing on the new life that was in him (what Lewis called "Good Infection") he as brought new life to those who choose him.




AMEN to that. :biggrin:

Any christians out there should drop by A.C.T.S.

A.C.T.S. All Christian Talk Ship (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=15543)

Well we have to remember Ecko is not really a priest. I was pretty shocked when I saw that scene too though. and Numenlad -- I agree, it would be awesome to see Rose step in :)

I'm of the opinion that this "error" was intentional on the writers' part. It's so egregious a mistake that I can't see how it would have occurred accidentally. As I said elsewhere, Jesus' sinlessness and divinity are arguably the central tenets to Christianity, a fact that is well known even to non-Christians. My theories on the reason for this inaccuracy appear below in the order that I have listed them (I love saying that):

Political -- the writers are making up for having introduced a non-fanatical Christian character by making him theologically unsound.
Creative License -- it is a better parallel to Claire's situation. Granted, it's blasphemous to Christians but I'm not sure the writers are overly concerned about that.
Character Development -- Eko, as has been mentioned, wasn't exactly your every day priest. His knowledge may have been lacking (though he carves Bible verses into his walking stick, recites the 23rd Psalm from memory, and knows the story of King Josiah.)
Political -- they didn't want anyone to think they were Christians. They'd never get a primetime gig again!Of course, it could have been a genuine mistake; I just don't see how.

Why is there such a tendency to work yourselves up into such a towering jesus based rage simply because they may mis-quoted the bible?? Get over yourselves for god sake and maybe try to take the show as less of a personal slight when they offend your delicate religious egos by trying not to turn the show into a bloody sermon.

Woah Woah. Hold it there.
Firslty, Its not just a matter of missquotation, its a deviation from something that pertains to the whole Bible.

Secondly, It was in the show! Like it or not, it was content in that episode, its something that effects the Characters of Charlie Rose and Ecko. If its something in the show, its only logical that people are going to disect each episdode. You may not like it, but your going to have to deal, and not be rude dude!

I have a feeling this topic may soon go the way of lockage :ohwell:

Oh, and have a nice day!

Eko isnt a priest. He went to church when he was a little kid. The rest of his life he was a murderous thug. He probably hasnt even read a bible since he was a kid. Only reason he is pretending to be a priest now is to fulfill some imagined debt to his dead brother.

The misquotes are intentional. He is trying to bs his way through it.

Sort of like Geiorge Costanza in Seinfeld saying he was an architect, then when pressed for details he stumbles around with some architecture language trying to sound like he knows what hes talking about.

Like somsone else in this thread said, if Rose overhears him preaching about something, she will probabyl correct him or call his bluff.

Well we have to remember Ecko is not really a priest. I was pretty shocked when I saw that scene too though. and Numenlad -- I agree, it would be awesome to see Rose step in :)

Sam, you are assuming the Eko is not a priest. We do not know what happened between the time of the drug plane leaving and him ending up on 815.

Leo

Why is there such a tendency to work yourselves up into such a towering jesus based rage simply because they may mis-quoted the bible?? Get over yourselves for god sake and maybe try to take the show as less of a personal slight when they offend your delicate religious egos by trying not to turn the show into a bloody sermon.

Wriiters who put any fact in to a show go to great lenghts to get it right. After all millions of people are watching their work.

This is not the first bible quote Eko has gotten wrong.

I think there is a reason for this. As a poster stated above. Eko is NOT a real preist. He assumed his brothers idenity. I'm thinking someone on that island is going to catch on to his mistakes. Possibly Rose.

From what we've been shown so far, Ecko is not a priest. That does not mean he's not familiar with the faith, but I haven't seen anything yet to indicate that Ecko went through training for the priesthood and was anything but a "priest on paper" only.

Also, it's not whether Jesus had to be cleansed from sin or not, it's what John the Baptist believed and preached at the time - that all people had to be cleansed from sin. Frankly, I can't imagine Jesus saying "Hey, I'm the son of God, you can forget the cleansing thing." I think that Ecko said may not have been 100% accurate relative to the bible but it was close enough for me.

This thread inspired me to go read the verses about Jesus' baptism again...
This verse is from John 1.29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God,
which taketh away the sin of the world.
John the Baptist knew who Jesus was, and did not believe that Jesus needed to be cleansed from sin. He knew that Jesus would baptise people with the Holy Spirit. Jesus would also eventually carry the sins of all people on his shoulders.

I am a Christian Protestant myself, but this is not an attempt to preach. I'm only saying what the bible says.
Oh.. and I should probably add a disclaimer too *giggles* Not saying this as a mod at all :)

Because Jesus was born into a sinful world. The fact that he took on the embodiment of man meant he was begot of the flesh of man, the old skin *sinful self/nature" must be washed away. That can only be done thru baptism This is why Jesus was baptised. Do your research people.

Sorry but Jesus was human and capable of sin that is what the trial was all about when he had to wander off in the desert. It was a test and he WAS tempted.

Well, we can't deny there wasn't a baptism of Jesus. It's the why of it that is being debated and probably always will be. The following explains it very well:

The theology of Jesus' baptism is uncertain. The Gospels make clear that John's baptism ritual was one of cleansing of sin, but they also make clear that as Son of God Jesus was sinless. In Matthew 3:15 Jesus replies to John's concerns by stating that his baptism will "fulfill all righteousness," an ambiguous phrase that has sparked millennia of debate. There are two main explanations for why Jesus thus undertook the ritual. One is that Jesus by being baptized is setting a good example for the rest of humanity, that while he does not himself need the cleansing he is showing how important it is for others. The second view is that Jesus' being baptized is part of the process of taking on the burden of the sins of all humanity.

Jesus was born to take sins away. As a Christian and a Catholic. Catholicism believes that Jesus was born free from sin. Jesus is after all God's son. John the baptist himself said that he was the one that needed to be baptised by Jesus, not Jesus baptised by John. Jesus said to do it now because it must be done according to scripture. So after the baptism the heavens opened up and a voice was heard saying "this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." Myha is correct in her statement.

Also,

We as humans are born with "original sin" thanks to Eve. She ate from the forbidden tree and God made all her offspring inherit "Original Sin". Therefore, Jesus was born as a human which would have made him have the "Original Sin". To be baptized is to cleanse yourself from that sin.

Well, we can't deny there wasn't a baptism of Jesus. It's the why of it that is being debated and probably always will be. The following explains it very well:




Well, there were different branches of Christianity before the Council of Nicea back in the 300's...
There were also a plethora of gospels that were not included in the mainstream Bible, some of those had been found at the Dea Sea and others elsewhere.
There were two major but now supressed Christian groups, the Gnostics and the Mancheans...both are regarded as heresy today. As late as the Cathars there was endless vocal debate on the subject of Jesus's baptism.

There are also numerous translations of the Bible into hundreds of languages.....which can skew interpertation because in some languages certain ideas are not expressed the same way as in others....

First of all, I'm glad someone else posted about this because Eko's words shocked me immediately while watching the episode. (I didn't get a chance to watch the epi until just now, on itunes.) I say the word "shocked" because I didn't expect LOST -- a show with writers who are generally so accurate and researched with their information -- to be so blatantly wrong.

Secondly -- I glanced over the posts in this thread, and yeah, I suppose it's probably either:
a) an intentional "mistake" to show Eko's ignorance
b) an intentional twisting of theology so that the show doesn't get pegged as "super-Christian" and suffer whatever consequences thereof.

Thirdly -- Simply put, Eko was wrong. The Bible says Jesus was completely sinless from birth and never sinned in his life (even though he was tempted). This is the basic and irrefutable tenant of Christianity -- leave it at that. There really isn't much need for a whole big argument on this thread. You can choose to believe the Bible or not to believe the Bible -- that's your personal choice, your personal opinion -- but you can't say "the Bible says one thing" when in fact it says something different.
That's like saying, "Shakespeare wrote all his plays about the Chinese nobility." We could have a whole argument about that, but if ya wanna know the truth, just read his plays!

Thirdly -- Simply put, Eko was wrong. The Bible says Jesus was completely sinless from birth and never sinned in his life (even though he was tempted). This is the basic and irrefutable tenant of Christianity -- leave it at that. There really isn't much need for a whole big argument on this thread. You can choose to believe the Bible or not to believe the Bible -- that's your personal choice, your personal opinion -- but you can't say "the Bible says one thing" when in fact it says something different.
That's like saying, "Shakespeare wrote all his plays about the Chinese nobility." We could have a whole argument about that, but if ya wanna know the truth, just read his plays!

Jesus was sinless from birth. He was tempted in the desert by Satan but he never sinned.

Because Jesus was born into a sinful world. The fact that he took on the embodiment of man meant he was begot of the flesh of man, the old skin *sinful self/nature" must be washed away. That can only be done thru baptism This is why Jesus was baptised. Do your research people.


I have to agree. I'm not a Biblical scholar or anything, but I've always understood that Jesus, as a man, had the original sin inherent to all men and women, and thus needed to be baptised.

Well, there were different branches of Christianity before the Council of Nicea back in the 300's...
There were also a plethora of gospels that were not included in the mainstream Bible, some of those had been found at the Dea Sea and others elsewhere.
There were two major but now supressed Christian groups, the Gnostics and the Mancheans...both are regarded as heresy today. As late as the Cathars there was endless vocal debate on the subject of Jesus's baptism.

There are also numerous translations of the Bible into hundreds of languages.....which can skew interpertation because in some languages certain ideas are not expressed the same way as in others....

Bravo, just bravo:biggrin:

We as humans are born with "original sin" thanks to Eve. She ate from the forbidden tree and God made all her offspring inherit "Original Sin". Therefore, Jesus was born as a human which would have made him have the "Original Sin". To be baptized is to cleanse yourself from that sin. well... i just researched this and, according to catholic beleif (not catholic myself), both Mary and Jesus were free of "original sin." Jesus also never actually sinned, although was tempted through his humanity.

Jesus's baptism was his way of declaring his public ministry, fullfilling the will of God the father, and setting an example of baptism by water (which is a "pre-figuration" of his eventual baptism of the world by his blood). according to catholic thought, it was not done to cleanse Him of sin.

so... any way you slice it, real preist or not, Eko's a bad catholic. doesn't know his stuff.

(finally de-lurking for this intriguing topic. i mean, did the character get this wrong? or the writers?

also, this is a totally valid topic, brought up by the show itself. i doubt any Christians here are trying to proselytize, just want to discuss the significance of this comment on the show. if you are offended by the topic itself, just don't read this thread.)

(finally de-lurking for this intriguing topic. i mean, did the character get this wrong? or the writers?

I think the writers got it wrong on purpose.
In Eko's flash back we are lead to believe he took over his brothers idenity. When the military police officer Said "Father are you all right" and Eko answered him.
We haven't been shown that he went on to actually become a priest.
I think some one on the island, possibly Rose, is going hear his mistakes and pick up on them. Another story will develope from there.

I think the writers got it wrong on purpose.
In Eko's flash back we are lead to believe he took over his brothers idenity. When the military police officer Said "Father are you all right" and Eko answered him.
We haven't been shown that he went on to actually become a priest.
I think some one on the island, possibly Rose, is going hear his mistakes and pick up on them. Another story will develope from there.

No way to know yet, but I'm guessing Rose is protestant. So... if she starts correcting Eko, well there's a can of worms...on many levels.

This thread inspired me to go read the verses about Jesus' baptism again...
This verse is from John 1.29

John the Baptist knew who Jesus was, and did not believe that Jesus needed to be cleansed from sin. He knew that Jesus would baptise people with the Holy Spirit. Jesus would also eventually carry the sins of all people on his shoulders.

I am a Christian Protestant myself, but this is not an attempt to preach. I'm only saying what the bible says.
Oh.. and I should probably add a disclaimer too *giggles* Not saying this as a mod at all :)
Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit (fire). John baptized with water. Hmmmm, fire + water. That would make a good title for a Lost episode.:biggrin:

I'm not very knowledgable on this subject, but didn't John the Baptist get a "message" that Jesus would come to earth, and John would recognize him from the heavens opening up?

John speaks of someone coming after him who is so good he couldn't kiss his sandals, or something like that.

I don't know the reason he baptizes Jesus, but was it not something that was already meant to happen. Fate anyone?

Why is there such a tendency to work yourselves up into such a towering jesus based rage simply because they may mis-quoted the bible?? Get over yourselves for god sake and maybe try to take the show as less of a personal slight when they offend your delicate religious egos by trying not to turn the show into a bloody sermon.

there is a tendency because it IS on tv and it sends the wrong message even if was intentional for plot reasons the writers probably shouldn't have left it 'hanging' . iguess thats what happens when 'hollywood' tries to get spiritual and I'm not going to get started on the whole sprinkling thing.

moved this to offtopic because, even though every once in awhile someone mentions Eko specifically, this is mostly a discussion about Christianity and Jesus.

I was wondering about his quote as well, but I figured it was oursins Jesus would have been baptized for. Never gave it much thought, I figured if Jesus died for our sins, being baptized for our sins seems right.

moved this to offtopic because, even though every once in awhile someone mentions Eko specifically, this is mostly a discussion about Christianity and Jesus.
ok... so the thread topic looks off-topic, but I think that it's extremely important to who Eko is (i just wish we had confirmation that this was Eko's mistake and not the writer's).

to me, this has to confirm that Eko is not a "real" priest, because Jesus's lack of sinful nature is something that would MOST DEFINITELY be taught to someone training to become a catholic preist.

conversation about the theology behind this conclusion is inevitable.

BTW I'd Love to see ROSE set Mr. Eko stright.

I mean I realize that as a drug dealer he would have been away from God along time but there's no excuse for that kind of error.

And on top of that, it wasn't like a small detail or anything. He messed up the whole kit and kaboodle of the big picture! :mad:

As I said elsewhere, Jesus' sinlessness and divinity are arguably the central tenets to Christianity, a fact that is well known even to non-Christians.

As we are already moved off topic by now, I thought I'd just add the following for the record:
Personally, I didn't notice anything wrong with Eko's statement when I watched the show and didn't realize there might be something there until I read this thread. And although I would call myself an atheist, I have been a member of the Christian Protestant church until I turned 18, including all the religious education stuff. (We have different words for the distinct parts of it here in Germany, so please forgive the sloppy term.)
I'm just saying this to prove to you that the doctrine in question might not be quite as well known (or as easily recognizable) to a non-christian as you think. No offence meant!

Wow, mention Jesus and get put off topic, that's messed up, like the red haired stepchild you don't want people to see so you send him away. I read every post in this thread and it's absolutely on topic to the show. Eko is the one who brought it up in the first place, how on earth is it off topic to discuss further? And did you miss the references to Rose, too?

Eko was wrong, and something about the sprinkling also rubbed me the wrong way. I don't see Eko as a priest as he's obviously not ordained. Has he even been to confession (is he supposed to be Catholic? He needs to go to Confession if he is) ?

Rose and Bernard have been SO ignored! We need their backstory, and it would be really interesting to find out what Rose thinks of this baptizing Turnip Head stuff. So far she hasn't really been involved at all. And now we have Claire questioning her own faith and destiny! And of course Charlie stepping on a statue of the Virgin Mary (I won't get into it but it wasn't a cool image -- and I didn't need to see Charlie in a diaper, either!).

"Why is there such a tendency to work yourselves up into such a towering jesus based rage simply because they may mis-quoted the bible?? Get over yourselves for god sake and maybe try to take the show as less of a personal slight when they offend your delicate religious egos by trying not to turn the show into a bloody sermon."

Jesus was only ever ina rage once in the Bible, didja know that? And this has nothing to do with "delicate religious egos", it has to do with facts as they are presented by a character who professes to be a PRIEST (did you miss that part?). Also, and I hope everyone pays strict attention here: it is very reactionary to insist that anytime someone mentions Christ, you accuse them of preaching/prostelytizing/giving a sermon and so on. That whole thing is really getting OLD. It is you who have the delicate ego because you can't seem to stand people discussing any aspect of the show that makes you personally uncomfortable. The thread was obviously religious, and you chose to read it. You don't like it, don't read it. Practice what YOU preach for a change!

I'm really glad to see the talk on this thread (kinda ticked that it got moved as I could not find it lol) Glad to know that more than a few people's dander was raised by Eko's comments. This board is WAY better than IMDB's!! All the smart people seem to be here, whereas IMDB is loaded with puss brains that seek to write only filth and defamatory comments (They also call any theory stupid but can't give a reason why.

I am VERY Glad to see people saying 90% of what I would have said myself to the doubters and nay-sayers.

One little note to the last poster before me.
While a agree with most of what you said, I would like to point out one factual error. You said that Jesus only got mad one in the bible.
I must say you are wrong there. Not only was there the cleansing of the temple, (which I think must be the one you are thinking of) there are MANY times when Jesus was . if not wrathful, very put out. For instance, just 2 or 3 chapters later he chews out the Pharaises (sorry bout spelling) Calling them everything from a brood of vipers, to Whited Tombs (clean on the outside but inside full of dead men's bones.) 7 woes he spoke to them. *Paraphrasing* You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces, you yourselves will not enter, nor will you let those who are trying too. You strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!" Jesus was mad when he said this.

Many other things I'm sure Jesus said in anger, yet you are correct in that there was only one time (we know of )that he really went to town.

"Jesus went in to the market place, and cast them down. That's just another way of saying, he beat the hell out of them."

Paul Hogan as Terry Dean
-Almost an Angel

Sorry but Jesus was human and capable of sin that is what the trial was all about when he had to wander off in the desert. It was a test and he WAS tempted.


Yes - Jesus was human - God who had become man so He could take our sins upon Himself, and face temptation just like us, & show us how to resist & defeat it. Yes - He had a free will & could have chosen not to go to the cross, but did anyway.
Being tempted & giving in to it are two different things!

Ok, some thoughts here..

Because Jesus was born into a sinful world. The fact that he took on the embodiment of man meant he was begot of the flesh of man, the old skin *sinful self/nature" must be washed away. That can only be done thru baptism This is why Jesus was baptised. Do your research people.

Water does not wash away, the blood of Christ does.

Sorry but Jesus was human and capable of sin that is what the trial was all about when he had to wander off in the desert. It was a test and he WAS tempted.

he was in human for but NOT human. Capable yes, comitted no. Temptation is not a sin. Giving in to sinful temptation is.

Also,

We as humans are born with "original sin" thanks to Eve. She ate from the forbidden tree and God made all her offspring inherit "Original Sin". Therefore, Jesus was born as a human which would have made him have the "Original Sin". To be baptized is to cleanse yourself from that sin.

This would be true IF he was born as a human. He was merely born into human flesh. He was not concieved between two humans, therefore not human. He was born via immaculate coneption

With that said, I believe that it was done on purpose and not out of some sort of error. I believe this will be a great way to connect EKO and Rose. Although, it was a bit irritating at first, after a few minutes of thought, I realized it was purely an "avenue" to use to deepen a plot and get us talkin like mad people..lol

very interesting topic. i for one do not believe it was intentional on part of the writers (although it may have been if it goes to further character development). my reasoning is that the vast majority of the non-christian world do not believe Jesus was the son of God. they believe he was a man that does good things. this is why i believe that the writers put that statement in. it's more politically correct then anything else they could have said.

now, i'm a Christian...and i caught it immediately. but someone who is not a christian might not pick up on it. it's been my experience with this show that if something is meant as a "clue", it means the majority of viewers pick up on it right away.

[QUOTE

We as humans are born with "original sin" thanks to Eve. She ate from the forbidden tree and God made all her offspring inherit "Original Sin".[/QUOTE]

Adam & Eve did not fall into sin (and everyone of their decendants) because Eve ate the forbidden fruit....but because Adam did. Eve was decieved by the serpent but Adam was not decieved, & knew exactly what he was doing.