We know it cannot amount to any good. I know armies can be used to defend but he looked like he wanted to form one who could attack........

With regard to the others, do they really know that they mean harm to the survivors. I know they knocked off a few of the tailies but the leader said that they were not going to harm them if they minded their own business, Walt was safe. The others easily could have attacked and killed them at an earlier point in time- they do seem better armed (at least they were b/f the hatch) and they have the element of suprise......

Could it just be that Jack is not being rational or has bad motives. We have all seen where that path goes. When Sawyer, Kate etc...sought revenge in the past, it resulted in an unexpected death. When characters like Jack, Locke pursued own selfish prideful motives it also resulted in death...........


It does not make alot of sense to me.....

I expect some kind of confrontation will happen later in the season. The Losties are wise to defend themselves. It's foolish to stay sitting ducks. They've experienced Ethan which should be unnerving enough. They know the Others took Walt and shot Sawyer and now they know the Others have drawn a line in the sand. They've heard the Tailies' story (or should have). I think we're going to see more Other action and things will escalate.

But how can they honestly think they'll achieve much? I mean, it would be worth trying if no lives were to be lost, but... it's probably a better idea to do some quiet investigation. Army, my foot. People need to stop jumping to violent decisions:ohwell::rolleyes:

But how can they honestly think they'll achieve much? I mean, it would be worth trying if no lives were to be lost, but... it's probably a better idea to do some quiet investigation. Army, my foot. People need to stop jumping to violent decisions:ohwell::rolleyes:

Cant say I can offer anything to help back you up here. But next time I survive a plane crash on an island as terrifying as the one their on....Ill let you know lol.

Couldn't find the words myself to answer the question , ( Why ? ) .Then I remembered a quote from , arguably , the finest examination of warfare .

Do not depend on the enemy not coming, but depend on our readiness against him.
Do not depend on the enemy not attacking, but depend on our position that cannot be attacked. - Sun Tzu (The Art of War)

I'd rather have a gun and not need it , then to not have a gun and need it .

It's what Sun Tzu would have done, but for a doctor to start an army, good luck. And then he'll cry every time he cannot fix one :)

I expect some kind of confrontation will happen later in the season. The Losties are wise to defend themselves. It's foolish to stay sitting ducks.
I think Jack is let him drive by him emotions once again. The didn't have guns for everybody, nor ammunition. I don't think want to attack. It's ridiculous!. Zeke knows the Island and the losties not. Even Danielle advised them about the three possible choices, none of those was "fight them!". And Danielle has a lot of experience with guns and survival than Jack ever could have.

But yes, as The_Bigg_Badd said, quoting Sun Tzu it should be better having a deffensive way... just in case. Now with the tailies there are at least two people ready to fight, as Ana Lucia and Eko, plus Locke, Sayid, Sawyer, Jack himself, Jin, even Kate. (Desmond perhaps?)

I think that is a bad decision, which could endanger all fusies now. I can't imagine Jack taking that decission but... who knows? Jack character (as many other characters over the Island) is now becoming more darker than the kind doctor he was in the first season.

Couldn't find the words myself to answer the question , ( Why ? ) .Then I remembered a quote from , arguably , the finest examination of warfare .

Do not depend on the enemy not coming, but depend on our readiness against him.
Do not depend on the enemy not attacking, but depend on our position that cannot be attacked. - Sun Tzu (The Art of War)

I'd rather have a gun and not need it , then to not have a gun and need it .


I agree with you. I think Jack is taking the offensive and defensive position. Better to have an army, than to have every Lostie taken by surprise, when the Others do come.

Heres one simple reason for an army, they have Walt, and possibly Michael. How else do you suppose they would get them back?

Heres one simple reason for an army, they have Walt, and possibly Michael. How else do you suppose they would get them back?
They tried something like this after Ethan (if I'm not wrong, trying to keep safe Aaron), with torches and continuous guards, and sound tramps. But Boone fell sleep. It didn't work. They took Claire and Charlie. And even Danielle took Aaron.

What should be work now? All together to protect "the greater good"?. Will people forget recent controversies? Will Sayid work side by side with Ana Lucia, Jack with Locke, Charlie...? One thing is certain: they need all being together. (Sorry if this isn't well written).

At this point we don't really know whether Jack is planning an offensive or defensive army or both. It would make sense to train everyone for defensive purposes, but an offensive attack wouldn't make sense for quite a while. Not only would they need to learn how to shoot the guns (without wasting any ammo), but would need additional weapons (bows and arrows maybe? spears? clubs?), and be trained in hand to hand combat. They'd also need to be trained in hand signals and silent communication, as well as stealthy movement, camouflage, etc. They'd also have to be trained in field dressings, and how to cover and move the injured...

It's a massive amount to learn. Boot camp is how long? Three weeks, a month, two months?? Anyway, they train all day long and have experienced professional soldiers to guide them. We have an ex-cop, an ex-Iraqi military expert who is mourning and may or may not be on board for such a task, and Locke who probably would not support an offensive attack against the others (at least not without a lot of homework first).

As far as getting Michael and Walt back it would be better to have a couple of people (Locke and Kate or Sayid) do some reconnaissance, find out exactly where the others are, how many there are, the weapons they have, etc., and do a rescue mission. Marching all the fusies and tailies across the island without any intelligence would be stupid.

All of them are still pretty relaxed when it comes to safety... they know the tailie children were kidnapped along with, was it 12 adults? They know Walt was taken, they know that Michael was shot at, and Kate taken and used for blackmail against Jack, they know about Ethan and Goodwin... where's the sentinels pacing the beach at night? Why aren't there people taking shifts watching the jungle and beach 24/7?

From the previews:
it seems like Ana brings this question up. And maybe after Sun's abduction we'll see a little more security around their camp.

But how can they honestly think they'll achieve much? I mean, it would be worth trying if no lives were to be lost, but... it's probably a better idea to do some quiet investigation. Army, my foot. People need to stop jumping to violent decisions

Remind me that if I'm ever on an island where a band of savages have assaulted, kidnapped, shot, bombed, and murdered our group of survivors to not put you in charge.

"Worth trying if no lives were lost"? Are you joking? Lives have already been lost. Children have been kidnapped and ripped from their parent's arms.

And "quiet investigation" of what? It seems pretty clear that Mr. Friendly and the Others are watching the survivors somehow. He knew a lot about what they were doing. The Others would just stand in their way again. What exactly would it take you to stand up and do something? If anything, Jack didn't act soon enough.

If they are being consistently observed then making an army makes no sense either. The others would be aware of every strategy, each person's weakness, the weapons, training, etc.

They'll have to train in the caves or someplace they cannot be observed, of which there don't seem to be many places. Or I guess they could sweep the area and set up sentinels, but if the others are as sneaky as they seem, one could be sitting just off the beach, or up in a tree, or under a bush, and no one would ever know.

If I were in the others' group, if I saw them making moves towards training everyone and developing an army, I'd strike while they were still untrained. It'd be chaos and many would die...

This needs careful planning, not just arming everyone and running off into the jungle, unless they want to lose a lot of people.

Jack's overtly emotional actions have frequently been when he was sleep deprived or personally involved (going for CC, Boone, Michael, attacking Locke, Kate). I can't recall when he has made a decision for the group as a whole which wasn't based on sensible logic imo.
burning the 'Lage- had to do for predators
moving to the caves- needed to maximize the infirmary/survival
kept the guns locked up til absolutely necessary
wanted to go in on the offense w/Ethan but listened to others for only defense-Sceve got killed
organized the camp in Ex for simultaneous raft launching & preemptive plan in case of Other attack
set up defense perimeter in MOFMOS
relegated tasks inside the hatch for its full exploration/management


Re:Sayid/others hostage in COL..Shannon was dead, Sawyer was half dead. Eko wasn't talking, obviously protecting the shooter. Based on info Jack had @ the moment, I didn't think the answer was do nothing. He has not previously shot 1st asked q's later.

Wanting to train people indicates rational forethought as illustrated by the i.e.'s above.And he has a history of conferring w/others who have expertise.

I think the fact that they're being observed makes the army all the more necessary. The Others complain about the Fusies being there, yet blow up the raft. You exterminate or shoo pests, you watch/infiltrate something that you need or wish to take down.

As folks have said, the Others have already waged acts of aggression. Walt & the TE's are gone w/no negotiation evident. And based on previews : Sun is attacked before anything is done which further supports the Others were lying when they said "bygones."

anyone who says "they shouldnt form an army" are seriously just stupid. the others have at least 30 people by what it seemed. the survivors have more than 40. either way, if they have people aware that there is a threat and armed, they have a chance. or i guess its better to do nothign and wait for the others to pick them off and steal them at their will?

They tried something like this after Ethan (if I'm not wrong, trying to keep safe Aaron), with torches and continuous guards, and sound tramps. But Boone fell sleep. It didn't work. They took Claire and Charlie. And even Danielle took Aaron.

What should be work now? All together to protect "the greater good"?. Will people forget recent controversies? Will Sayid work side by side with Ana Lucia, Jack with Locke, Charlie...? One thing is certain: they need all being together. (Sorry if this isn't well written).
Thats not an army, thats a lookout. I am sure this will be different.

anyone who says "they shouldnt form an army" are seriously just stupid. the others have at least 30 people by what it seemed. the survivors have more than 40. either way, if they have people aware that there is a threat and armed, they have a chance. or i guess its better to do nothign and wait for the others to pick them off and steal them at their will?

You have such a way with words:mad:

All sides have valid points. Eko and sayid should surely go into the woods to do some reconissance. Understandably they should be armed to the teeth. If they are discovered, they would be the only ones skilled enough in combat to actually take more than their fair share of the others with them. Locke, jack, and sawyer could find enough space in both the hatch and the caves to take up defensive manuvers. Make a pre-emptive strike. the hatch is not too far away from the beach to make a quick getway is it?

With regard to the others, do they really know that they mean harm to the survivors.Kidnapping multiple Lostaways = harm. Shooting Sawyer when he tried to prevent a kidnapping = harm. Blowing up the raft and leaving them to sink or swim in shark infested waters = harm.

Walt was safe According to his kidnapper Walt is safe, is a kidnapper a reliable source? And how is being forcibly separated from your family by a stranger an indication that you are safe?

Could it just be that Jack is not being rational or has bad motives. I too question his motives, but his idea is good. They need an armed force unless they decide they prefer being a flock of sheep waiting for the shearing and or slaughter. We do not know enough about the "Others" yet to say they can not effectively be opposed by the Lostaways. The Lostaways are under attack despite the Gorton Fisherman’s self serving disclaimer. They can fight or they can surrender but since they are on an island they can not flee or hide. The formation/training of an effective fighting force is a good idea.

Kidnapping multiple Lostaways = harm. Shooting Sawyer when he tried to prevent a kidnapping = harm. Blowing up the raft and leaving them to sink or swim in shark infested waters = harm.

According to his kidnapper Walt is safe, is a kidnapper a reliable source? And how is being forcibly separated from your family by a stranger an indication that you are safe?

I too question his motives, but his idea is good. They need an armed force unless they decide they prefer being a flock of sheep waiting for the shearing and or slaughter. We do not know enough about the "Others" yet to say they can not effectively be opposed by the Lostaways. The Lostaways are under attack despite the Gorton Fisherman’s self serving disclaimer. They can fight or they can surrender but since they are on an island they can not flee or hide. The formation/training of an effective fighting force is a good idea.


THAAAAAAAAAAAAAANK you.

I agree Fogey good post...I particularly love this line:

The Lostaways are under attack despite the Gorton Fisherman’s self serving disclaimer:lol2:

I suspect there are more than one set of "others". There might even be a sort of
civil war going on between the others and the other "others".

Ethan infiltrated the camp, standing side by side Locke, as they both discussed
together, hunting for boar. Ethan was at the first golf game, smiling and joining
in on the fun.

Goodwin infiltrates the tailies, acting as if, only it didn't work that time.
Not enough distractions, not enough people there to simply blend in.

Then there's the rag tag bare foot group walking past, and Zeke's group,
(if not the same as the barefooted group), it looks like there are more
than one others.

The lostaways don't realize at this point, who is who and where they are,
how many and what they are about. Not knowing that there might be more
than one group, they will blame whatever happens on one group. If
there are more than one group, then it will be real important to realize
that. If they go after the "others" then the other "others" will be able
to slip through.

Setting up a defense and offense in an military type way includes
strategy and spying out the land. They can't just go out armed
and ready to battle on a strange land with strange people and
strange rules.

Locke and Sayid have military minds, they should know the art of
anticipating the opponent. A lot of thought goes into a battle, and the
best minds win the war.

I suspect there are more than one set of "others".
I think like you. I think there's more than one "Others" group.

Setting up a defense and offense in an military type way includes strategy and spying out the land.
Maybe spoilers about Ep 2x14 which I don't copy here could be useful to you. Take a look at the Speculation forum.

Locke and Sayid have military minds, they should know the art of anticipating the opponent. A lot of thought goes into a battle, and the best minds win the war.
So do best bodies, and guns. I think there're a lot of things to happen before the confrontation between the Others and the losties.

Kidnapping multiple Lostaways = harm. Shooting Sawyer when he tried to prevent a kidnapping = harm. Blowing up the raft and leaving them to sink or swim in shark infested waters = harm.

I'm not sure "kidnapping," is exactly what happened. Usually a kidnapping includes some sort of ransom. Ask yourself why Walt had to go on the raft (Born to Run). And note that no one was murdered.

According to his kidnapper Walt is safe, is a kidnapper a reliable source? And how is being forcibly separated from your family by a stranger an indication that you are safe?

When you're "family" is lost. And you know it. "Don't open it Mr. Locke." (Born to Run)

I too question his motives, but his idea is good. They need an armed force unless they decide they prefer being a flock of sheep waiting for the shearing and or slaughter.

There is an alternative to force: persuasion. My point here is that this show is definately playing on everyone's natural (is it really natural?) fear of "Otherness." Fear often isn't the best place for the orgin of a choice. We don't know what sorrows have befallen the Others. I imagine the worse case to be one where Jack's Army kills every last one of them, and their story is never told ...

You have to protect yourself. When people constantly ambush you and snatch people, supplies, etc and have murdered/wounded multiple members of the group and kidnapped many others, you can't assume they are just misunderstood.

If Jack and the fusies were smart, they would clear out a huge chunk of jungle around the caves and the hatch and get off of the indefensible beach. Training people is also a great idea; at the very least it gets people in shape and more prepared in case they get snatched the next time the others (whichever group of others you think is coming; I personally think there are at least three groups of them) decide that they need some fresh bodies. They also need to scout a lot, which has already been mentioned. The island isn't that big, and they have only seen a fraction of it. That is a big part of the uncertainty and danger that surrounds the entire situation.

Guns aren't the only defense, either. I'm sure they are building various structures (bunkers or walls or something) as well as training in the jesus-stick beat down and probably some sort of salvage metal made blades, bolos, arrows, crossbows and bows, maybe even blowguns. The point is that there are plenty of things they should be doing besides waiting like lambs for the slaughter.

Also, negotiation is a lot easier when you hold the upper hand. And right now the survivors don't have much in the way of leverage.

I'm not sure "kidnapping," is exactly what happened. Usually a kidnapping includes some sort of ransom. Ask yourself why Walt had to go on the raft (Born to Run). And note that no one was murdered. OK make it abducted instead of kidnapped since they have not yet asked for a ransom. That act of abduction still = harm. No one was murdered but blowing up the raft and leaving them stranded in shark infested waters sure looks like attempted murder.

When you're "family" is lost. And you know it. "Don't open it Mr. Locke." (Born to Run)So the Others rescued Walt from his father by force instead of using persuation and then proceeded to leave the adults to die. The rescue of a child by forceful abduction combined with the attempted destruction of his parent & friends is not, in my opinion, a socially enlightened course of action taken by well meaning people.

There is an alternative to force: persuasion.True but did Zeke really sound open to persuasion? When have the Others tried persuasion? The Others have been the ones forcing the issue not the Lostaways. Perhaps all it would have taken was for an emissary from the Others to visit the Lostaway's camp and explain that they were adverse to being contaminated by the Lostaways so they were going to quarantine them until such time as they could either leave or were rescued. Instead the Other's appear to be acting as if they fear the presence of outsiders who crashed on their island and are resorting to force instead of using persuasion on the Lostaways. Maybe the Lostaways can get the Others to see reason once they have an organized force of their own(army) and can negotiate from a position of strength?

What we might have here is a lack of communication. The others
should have introduced themselves, explained their situation and
given our group the grand tour of the Island.

Perhaps where the others failed is in their opening line, the grabbing of Claire
and attempted murder of Charlie. Seems like the lines were broken at that
point. Any hope of discussion ended with the killing of Sceve.

The boat people wanted to express their wishes on the raft guys, except
the only one they really wanted to talk to, they took; and ended any
questions about it with a gun and fire bomb.

Then we have the taking of the children and a few adults, and the attempt to
grab Eko- (what the h*ll were they thinking trying to grab a giant like Eko)?
Of course he in turn shared with them his point of view with that.

And then we have another infiltrator spy who attempted to force his opinion on
Ana, but she was quick to engage him and end that conversation.

Yes, I'd say that is what we have here is a lack of communication.
The others just don't know understand the fine art of conversation. ;)

The Lostaways are realizing they need to use the same language
as the others, Power~up! young Luke!

Personally I think that setting up your defenses is an excellent idea. There are enough guns in the hatch to arm a small platoon for some close in fire fights. As for the number of others we know that there are at least 15 from this screen shot seen here [COLOR=#800080]http://lost.cubit.net/pics/ringOfFire.jpg (http://lost.cubit.net/pics/ringOfFire.jpg) We also know that they are well armed. If there were that many guns in the hatch imagine how many guns are in the other 5 installations combined. we don't however have any idea of their number or if all of them are expert shots. I assume they all have some sort of weapons training from living on the island, at the least. At the best the others are well trained soldiers, this however is unlikely since the dharma project is a scientific endeavor and scientist tend not to be warriors. Obviously they are good trackers and know how to move in the bush since they took Michael and they were able to get the drop on the Hunting party. I would say that rushing at the others at this juncture is ill advised. reconnaissance is needed, we need to know how many there are, where they are, and the disposition of their forces. So i believe that Jack is forming a mainly defensive army for right now but one that will be able to attack and eventually "liberate" the children from the others
but who knows mabye the others are living the sweet life in a plush resort and don't want to share any of thier martin mix with Jack...

The army is brilliant. The others have clearly showed that they will take what they want from the losties. Some people out there think they might have good motives- that they aren't really the "bad guys" we make them out to be. Come on people, from the perspective of the losties, they are savages. Goodwin breaks an innocent guys neck. Ethan is a bone crushing, junkie lynching gorilla. They are bad. Maybe you think those others are different from the others on the boat, and the boat others who took walt have good intentions for them. If that is the case, why not work cooperatively with the losties like good people would? Why not show them walt's ok? They shoot sawyer, burn the raft, and then expect the losties to take their word that Walt's safe. Ridiculous.

But if they are the juggernauts they claim to be and are in total control, why all the secrecy and subtlety? why not just make a show of force at the camp and take the losties as slaves, and not have to worry about them again? Instead they use trickery and secrecy, tools that a weak opponent uses to persuade in the absence of tangible force. They may know a lot of whats going on, but they probably have limited arms and are hesistant to make open combat. They certainly weren't heavily armed when Eko was unleashed on them.

Finally, a point I think has not been mentioned- the Others have a boat! With an engine! and a giant light! forcing them to cooperate might be the best shot the losties have to get home. the failure of Rousseau's signal to get help over a 16 year period would make me entertain doubts that anyone is coming. So why not go after the stinkin boat! I know Sawyer said it was a fishing boat not made for the high seas, but the engine would have helped their raft out. And if they have a boat, and a light, what else do they have.

Jack is right. Mobilize the people. It make take time, but they have time. They can't leave Walt, they can't let Michael continue to lose it. It is the Others who are standing between them and going home. War is upon us!

Michelle Friday -- I enjoyed reading your posts.

I just wanted to say that in Lord of the Flies, it was the fear of what was out there, not what was actually out there, that led to doom. The idea of a lack of communication and multiple groups of others kind of follows that line of thinking.

Michelle Friday -- I enjoyed reading your posts.

I just wanted to say that in Lord of the Flies, it was the fear of what was out there, not what was actually out there, that led to doom. The idea of a lack of communication and multiple groups of others kind of follows that line of thinking.

Here is the problem: the "others" are making obtaining information via communication difficult. They have chosen the route of secrecy. The losties have to arm and mobilize themselves if they are going to have the leverage to obtain information. As true victims, the losties are entitled to an explanation, and instead the others are assailing them and leaving them in the dark. They have forced the losties to arm themselves.

I think Jack is wise to build an army. What are his alternatives? Sit and wait to be taken? Sit and wait until no one else is left? I am usually a fan of action versues passivity. I agree that the "others" have forced them to arm themselves. I also think there is an element of fear being in control, rather than the characters being in control of their fear.

I think Jack is wise to build an army. What are his alternatives? Sit and wait to be taken? Sit and wait until no one else is left? I am usually a fan of action versues passivity. I agree that the "others" have forced them to arm themselves. I also think there is an element of fear being in control, rather than the characters being in control of their fear.

I don't know if thats the case. So far our only proponents of war are Jack and AL. Neither seem very fearful. Jack was about to get into a gun fight with the others while surrounded in the jungle at night were it not for Kate being hostage. We are yet to see Jack show signs of being afraid. He has walked into danger for the sake of other people again and again. And AL is about as hard as it comes. She is definitely more fearful than Jack, but she seems more resolved than overcome with fear.

Perhaps you are right. Unless it is fear that is causing their bravado.

I really believe Jack should be forming an army...But I believe his enemy is not Zeke's clan of others...But, rather, Goodwin & Ethan's clan of others. Zeke's clan could have killed Locke, Sawyer, Jack & Kate in The Hunting Party. Instead they were disarmed and sent back unharmed. Zeke's bunch of others only crimes have been Walt's abduction, Sawyer's shooting and leaving the raftees for dead in that said abduction.

Goodwin killed Nathan and attempted to kill Ana. Ethan killed Steve, abducted Claire, attempted to kill Charlie, and threatened to kill Jack and anyone who followed him. IMO attacking Zeke's clan will probably only lead to casualties on both sides and may not ensure Walt & Michael's safe return and reunion. We saw Zeke pause when he heard Ethan's name...as if he knew who he was, but was not affiliated with him. Zeke seemed surprised to learn of Ethan's infiltratration on Jack's side of the island.

I think an army is necessary for defense/protection...as for offense and attack? I think the Lostaways first need to find out who their enemy is.

IMO attacking Zeke's clan will probably only lead to casualties on both sides and may not ensure Walt & Michael's safe return and reunion.
Most probably more casualties in the losties part. That's why I thought that Jack's decission to form an army was "personal" and not well thought.

Kidnapping multiple Lostaways = harm. Shooting Sawyer when he tried to prevent a kidnapping = harm. Blowing up the raft and leaving them to sink or swim in shark infested waters = harm.
Dharma sharks, in fact :confused: .

I'm not sure "kidnapping," is exactly what happened. Usually a kidnapping includes some sort of ransom. Ask yourself why Walt had to go on the raft (Born to Run). And note that no one was murdered.
That let me to believe that:
a) For some strange reason, they want or need people at the Island
b) There will be no ransom. They didn't ask for ransom with the tailies' children.

According to his kidnapper Walt is safe, is a kidnapper a reliable source?
If they are part of the Dharma Initiative, children should be safe to experiment with them. Zeke is a stranger for the losties, but losties aren't for him. So I think Zeke is probably telling the truth.

Because he thinks by fighting them, he can "fix" the situation, of course! :rolleyes:

Yeah, The Others have ALL the advantage here. I'd be more concerned with finding out more about Them before going over the line and fighting them. Know your enemy, and all that.

Know your enemy, and all that.

Yes, that is essential!

What the losties need is simple: ANSWERS. They need to know who the others are, if they are divided or in conflict, what they are capable of, and especially do they have means to get of the island, i.e. Zeke's boat. If Zeke and his friends are "good" and ethan and Goodwin's "bad" than Zeke should be recruiting the losties, not threatening them. They need answers, and that requires some more intense intelligence gathering (probably via Sayid and Locke but maybe with the help of Rousseau if her knowledge can be obtained) but using force (both the ability to protect themselves and threaten the others) may also be a means for obtaining answers. They aren't getting rescued, and they need to take hold of their own destinies.

just because the others aren't coming out en masse to attack the survivors doesn't mean that the others are depleted or weak. instead it shows that they are cautious and realistic: right now they are gauging the will of the survivors and feeling out how willing they are to stomach conflict, as well as probing the survivors' boundaries of interest on the island in a geographical sense.

As long as the lostaways don't come after them, there is no reason to provoke conflict and risk the lives of people in Zeke's clan.

While I do believe that some of the exotic explanations for kidnapping people are probably true, replenishing your tribe through indoctrinating people, especially impressionable young children, to live your way of life is a necessity when you live in a relatively closed system like the island. This way of thinking is strengthened even further if you believe that there are multiple groups of others that probably aren't working in concert at the least and could be warring as a worst case scenario.

If they are part of the Dharma Initiative, children should be safe to experiment with them. Zeke is a strenger for the losties, but losties aren't for him. So I think Zeke is probably telling the truth. Yup just like we told the lab rats in psych class, don't worry you're safe as long as you stay in your cage so don’t escape or get on the dissection table:biggrin:

Forcible abduction from his father and being held against his will are 2 ways Zeke's group has already inflicted harm on Walt. Experimenting on Walt could case further harm. Doesn't meet my standard of safe. Did the Lost children walking through the jungle look safe, well fed & cared for? Zeke may or may not be part of the Other group that took them but I believe odds favor that being part of the same group based on the common goal of snatching children.

The possible presence of an Other's spy in the Lostaway camp is not an argument against the forming of an army. True the spy could report on their training and status of the army but the spy, if any, is now reporting on their complete lack of readiness. Reporting ripe for the plucking or no threat vs reporting a unified group capable of fighting. They could have forced Kate to tell them who else was roaming the woods rather than getting the name from a spy. I think a spy is probable but still speculation at this point.

Note re my earlier posts, I am changing from kidnapped to abducted where taking Lostaways is concerned.

Is there a list of actual murders the Others have committed? I can think of only one: Sceve, was attacked from the ocean. This revolved around Ethan's desire to get Aaron back. And (sorry if I'm splitting hairs) we didn't actually see anyone kill him. Are there any other incidents?

Remember: Eko was once painted as one of the "Others." But now that we know his story, and the story of the tallies, we understand and perhaps even validate his violence against Jin, Sawyer and Michael.

It has been suggested that the primary facet is a lack of communication. Agreed. My theory is that the "Others," are unable to tell the Truth, not unwilling. I believe their secret is so horrifying that if the survivors of flight 815 heard it, they'd go deft. Their soul is just not ready to hear it. Especially as long as they dream of Freedom.

Come on people, there's more going on here.

Is there a list of actual murders the Others have committed? I can think of only one: SceveWith all the actor/name confusion that might be 2:biggrin:

So attempted murder doesn't count for your list thus eliminating Michael, Jin, Sawyer and Charlie as intended victims. I say the intent was there even though they beat the odds and survived.

Assuming every abducted person survived, that leaves Nathan, who was killed by Goodwin, as No. Two.

For those who want to split legal hairs, wouldn't people who died as a result of a crime being committed by the Others be legally charged to the Others? I am thinking of those people killed by Eko and Ana in self defense.

"Nathan was not a good person." The argument is there that Goodwin killed Nathan to spare him of the torture Ana was about to inflict. Furthermore, the death directly triggers a move, and discovery of the Arrow Hatch. A note for our numerlogists: Nathan was killed on the 23 day. See The Other 48 Days.

Any other examples of murder via the Others? Perhaps we should stock it up against the number of crimes our beloved band of flight 815 survivors have comitted.

My point remains: the creative team is playing on our natural (is it really natural?) fear of "Otherness." Believe me --- I am not condoning the actions of "The Others." Never trust anyone with 'special knowledge.' However, as it stands I can find no concrete evidence that they are villianous or malicious.

Why is Jack building an army? I imagine it's mere anxiety. He was told not to cross a line (a divided line) and this command is entirely unbearable ...

This has probably already been said but, remember Jack losing some guns, and almost Kate to the others? I think that's why Jack needs an army, to be able to defend themselves, and "conquer" the others.

what I wanna know is exactly how many guns they have now, with the armory and all.

My point remains: the creative team is playing on our natural (is it really natural?) fear of "Otherness." Believe me --- I am not condoning the actions of "The Others." Never trust anyone with 'special knowledge.' However, as it stands I can find no concrete evidence that they are villianous or malicious.

Why is Jack building an army? I imagine it's mere anxiety. He was told not to cross a line (a divided line) and this command is entirely unbearable ... I doubt that xenophobia is the only driving force here.However it might be a mutual mistake as the Others appear to be basing their actions on fear of the Lostaways. I continue to believe the abduction of children and adults is evidence of malicious intent. I also believe the attempted murder of 4 people as well as the accomplished murder of 2 people is substantial evidence of intent."Nathan was not a good person."Why was he not a good person? Because his killer said so? or because he was abrasive and uncooperative (Characteristics shared by more than one Lostaway as well as Zeke)? Sorry but he was murdered just as Sceve was. and his personality flaws do not justify Nathan killing him. I don't think it is mere anxiety leading Jack to build an army. I think the desire for revenge is also mixed in. However even if his motives are probably wrong, I still think self defense is a good reason for them to build an Army.

Forcible abduction from his father and being held against his will are 2 ways Zeke's group has already inflicted harm on Walt. Experimenting on Walt could case further harm. Doesn't meet my standard of safe.
Mine neither. I meant they didn't hurt Walt. Of course all of that actions harm. Torture harms too, and I think Sawyer knows himself safe. Sense of guilty harms too, and Jack stays there though. Following your standard of safe NONE in the Island is safe (as Zeke isn't too). In fact, having an plane crash accident harms too. In that case yes, I was wrong. But Zeke, imho, has not need to lie since he is the boss there. He knows the Island, the losties, he has a boat (at least), guns... we don't know how much does he have.

The possible presence of an Other's spy in the Lostaway camp is not an argument against the forming of an army.
I agree, Goodwin's or Ethan's clothes has nothing to do with Zeke's ones. It seems there're more than one group of others, although all they follow the instructions of Zeke. I think losties need much more understanding and agreement among them, less disputes, and seeing all in the same way. That's the better army the could make.

Mine neither. I meant they didn't hurt Walt. Of course all of that actions harm. Torture harms too, and I think Sawyer knows himself safe. Sense of guilty harms too, and Jack stays there though. Following your standard of safe NONE in the Island is safe (as Zeke isn't too). In fact, having an plane crash accident harms too. In that case yes, I was wrong. But Zeke, imho, has not need to lie since he is the boss there. He knows the Island, the losties, he has a boat (at least), guns... we don't know how much does he have.LOL OK we are not communicating our exact meanings. They harm Walt but do not Hurt him? I guess you are restricting it to physical damage while I am using a wider range of meaning for harm or hurt. Under my definition inflicting psychological damage counts so he is not safe. Granted Zeke may not need to lie but I think he does lie. I agree no one on the island is totally safe but my point is that Zeke and his cohorts are forcing the issue and the result is decreased safety for everyone concerned in both camps (Lostaway & Other). Jack's army is a reaction to the Others actions, a reaction that could have been avoided if the Other's had used peaceful means to hold the Lostaways at bay.

My standard of safe does not mean no one will ever suffer from an accident, it means that to say Walt is safe you would have to 1 avoid deliberately inflicting damage (including psychological) on him and 2 provide him with a reasonable standard of physical safety. Since Zeke fails the inflict damage portion of this definition, Walt is not safe and Zeke has lied.

I do not trust the word of a man whose group has killed, tried to kill & abducted members of my group without provocation. Being on the island as castaways is not provocation, the crash survivors are not invaders. Enlist now in Jacks Army!:biggrin:

Under my definition inflicting psychological damage counts so he is not safe.
Ok then. So, I'm sorry, I was totally wrong. None on the Island is safe, and less the children, who we don't know who they are with.
My standard of safe does not mean no one will ever suffer from an accident, it means that to say Walt is safe you would have to 1 avoid deliberately inflicting damage (including psychological) on him and 2 provide him with a reasonable standard of physical safety.
Understood. Since we are talking about a group of people who didn't know and lying each other, and they are in an strange region, that they don't know, as survivors of a plane crash, I'd think both premises couldn't be done. Nor with the people of the plane, neither with the "others".
Enlist now in Jacks Army!:biggrin:
Hehehe :3: Thanks for the offering! I'm sure alone am best! :evil1:

I doubt that xenophobia is the only driving force here. Why was he not a good person? Because his killer said so?
No --- he wasn't good because he was Canadian. And nothing good comes out of Canada. Save the snow coated peaks of our destiny. And beavers. :biggrin:

Seriously, we don't know why Nathan wasn't a good person. We didn't get much of his story --- something about a retreat? --- maybe he was a serial killer, maybe a rapist, or Satan Himself ... we don't know.

Perhaps we'll find out tonight ... not very likely eh?

Being prepared is the smartest thing to do. They have already been attacked and Walt was taken. It is far more wise to have an organized plan for the possibility of someone attacking rather than just doing nothing and being targeted. Jack is smart to try and stay one step above these people. He may not know all they are capable of but certainly having a strategy is a sign of a good leader. He is trying to take care of the people on the island and that is what motivates him, which is a great quality. At least he's trying.

Just goes to show another facet of Jack's personality... he never lets go of anything.

"Speak softly but carry a big stick." Teddy Roosevelt

Same reason he always makes an army...

to TRY and TAKE OVER THE WORLD!

;)

Attempted murder should count. After Mr. Friendly kidnapped Walt they threw a bomb on the raft. The argument might be made that it was meant solely to destroy the raft, but I don't accept that. If the survivors remained on their raft they would have been killed. Besides, who are they to prevent the survivors from leaving? Or to take Walt?

Attempted murder should count. After Mr. Friendly kidnapped Walt they threw a bomb on the raft. The argument might be made that it was meant solely to destroy the raft, but I don't accept that. If the survivors remained on their raft they would have been killed. Besides, who are they to prevent the survivors from leaving? Or to take Walt?
You're right. I think that in some way or other, Zeke's band doesn't want to leave losties because they need them. Not sure about the reasons.
By the way: does Jack (or Sayid) that Zeke blew away the raft? I know Sawyer knows but... Sorry, I don't remember.
P.S.: They were the bad guys with the guns.

"Now I have a gun" John McLane

Same reason he always makes an army...

to TRY and TAKE OVER THE WORLD!

;)

Pinky & the Brain?