I let this stew in my head all night... but it think that Sawyer just pulled the most benificial con, ever. The guns are out of the middle of the Jack/Locke conflict, AL knows she can't get to them now, and everyone knows what the score is if they want to get their hands on a gun.

Sure, it may look like Sawyer being his usual selfish self but he's not an idiot, and we all could see how fast the gun issue was going to come to a head, and the odds of someone getting hurt. I think Sawyer figured out a way to deal with it, and not bring any suspicion down on himself as a 'good guy'.

And would Charlie *really* hurt Sun, just to get back at Locke? Charlie is pissed, and an outcast, but he's not malicious. Sawyer had to have given him a better motivation than that.

Honestly, I think Sawyer is the best person to have control of the guns. He's not going to randomly hand them out, for any old emotional reason, he's going to make people work for them, which is going to make people stop and think before heading off armed. And he doesn't care if people are pissed at him about it or not.

I let this stew in my head all night... but it think that Sawyer just pulled the most benificial con, ever. The guns are out of the middle of the Jack/Locke conflict, AL knows she can't get to them now, and everyone knows what the score is if they want to get their hands on a gun.

Sure, it may look like Sawyer being his usual selfish self but he's not an idiot, and we all could see how fast the gun issue was going to come to a head, and the odds of someone getting hurt. I think Sawyer figured out a way to deal with it, and not bring any suspicion down on himself as a 'good guy'.

And would Charlie *really* hurt Sun, just to get back at Locke? Charlie is pissed, and an outcast, but he's not malicious. Sawyer had to have given him a better motivation than that.

Honestly, I think Sawyer is the best person to have control of the guns. He's not going to randomly hand them out, for any old emotional reason, he's going to make people work for them, which is going to make people stop and think before heading off armed. And he doesn't care if people are pissed at him about it or not.

Check out other posts on this issue. And while the guns being in his possession may or may not be for the greater good, it's definitely not what Sawyer had in mind when he took them.

I agree with most of this. Jack and Locke even said it a billion times, "if we start handing out guns, the chances of us shooting each other is higher than those of us shooting them"
jack was even going to give a gun to captain trigger happy who caused the first accident!
and I love sawyer. still on the shelf about his motives behind the whole thing, but i really like your theory.

I agree. I think he doesn't like being in the middle of a bunch of lostaways, found a way to get on everyone's bad side again, and besides that, have the POWER. I had no idea how sick I was of the power struggle between Locke and Jack until Sawyer duped them both, and brought Charlie with him as the silent partner. I also love the fact that in my mind this switches the roles a little -- Sawyer, the 'bad guy' is doing what is best for the group, and Charlie, who loves the group thing, did what was best for him, and him only, risking many relationships. I thought is was great. :cool:

It's definitely not what Sawyer had in mind when he took them.
Can we be sure about that? We know almost nothing about Sawyer's real motivations for doing things. We, like the Losties, assume he's just a jerk out to only do things for himself. But, we've also seen him soften up quite a bit since being on the raft.How much of his return to Bad Boy is just an act, possibly triggered by his motivations post encounter with the Others, and seeing Kate threatned?

Im not saying his motivations were all goodness and light, but I'm unconvincend that they were all self-serving, either.

I also agree with most of this - I think Sawyer saw what was happening and saw that it was going to have a horrible outcome in the end so he played it off as him getting back for taking his stuff. I dont think he is viewing himself as some kind of warlord. I do think he had another motive which was for the greater good of the entire group - he just doesn't want to appear vulnerable to the Lostaways. As for Charlie - good for him putting Locke in his place. Like was said before in this thread - I too didn't realize how tired of the Locke/Jack power struggle I was. And I am very glad that Charlie was able to finally get some courage to take Locke down a few notches (even tho Locke doesn't know it was Charlie's hand in helping with it).

I really like this theory. I like it because it plays right into the way the show is handled. Nearly every character has, and will continue to swing on the good/evil pendulum. Locke is the most blatant example of this, but Sawyer is also. He was bad, then he did some good stuff. Now he's doing bad stuff. And it's going to swing back to good at some point. He may not ever admit to it, but I think that at least ONE of his motives was to get the whole island to simma down now. (that's the street in me coming out). Sawyer is going to be the bad guy for a few episodes, and then when we least expect it, he's going to play the good guy card. And then he's going to do something bad later. And then good again.

etc.

I don't think Sawyer purposely did something for the greater good of the group. It was just as he said. He was sick of not being in charge and having to listen to everyone else tell him what to do.

Having said that, it would be an interesting twist if Sawyer did this to get everyone to stop fighting amongst themselves. Now everyone would have a common enemy.

Check out other posts on this issue. And while the guns being in his possession may or may not be for the greater good, it's definitely not what Sawyer had in mind when he took them.
Agree. Sawyer wanted everyone to hate him and Charlie wanted revenge. Any benefit from taking the guns away from Jack and Locke is just collateral.

I also agree with most of this - I think Sawyer saw what was happening and saw that it was going to have a horrible outcome in the end so he played it off as him getting back for taking his stuff. I dont think he is viewing himself as some kind of warlord. I do think he had another motive which was for the greater good of the entire group - he just doesn't want to appear vulnerable to the Lostaways. The potentially horrible outcome was something Saywer and Charlie planned.

As for Charlie - good for him putting Locke in his place. Like was said before in this thread - I too didn't realize how tired of the Locke/Jack power struggle I was. And I am very glad that Charlie was able to finally get some courage to take Locke down a few notches (even tho Locke doesn't know it was Charlie's hand in helping with it).But to hurt Sun in the process? He pretty much lost me forever at that point.

I think what Sawyer did was for the greater good of Sawyer. He was selfish and made a plan that hurt another person and deceived all the other islanders and used people to get what he wanted. No Sawyer love from fans should make his actions excusable. Please. Sawyer being the best person to hold the guns is ridiculous. He has fought with islanders, caused fights and stolen stuff just so he could be comfortable. He did nothing for the greater good but take care of himself and act selfish and arrogant. His behavior speaks for itself. Pulling off a con is not okay to do!

And would Charlie *really* hurt Sun, just to get back at Locke? Charlie is pissed, and an outcast, but he's not malicious. Sawyer had to have given him a better motivation than that.

Not that this excuses him at all, but I think Charlie's role was to put a scare into Sun, not hurt her. Her injuries came in the struggle, because Charlie doesn't know how to subdue someone without harming them.

I disagree.

First, I thought the point of the ep was that Sawyer never can bring himself to do anything for the greater good, even when he has a brief notion in that direction.

Second, even if that was his intention, hiding the guns in the jungle was the most inept attempt at helping the group imaginable. This new sheriff is way more Barney than Andy.

Helping the greater good by hiding the guns in the jungle he knows to be controlled by the Others? The same Others who watch the Losties so closely they know them by name and even have a Santa-like good/bad list? What are they chances that Zeke and the gang are not lovingly polishing their new arsenal even as we type?

And on the slim chance that the Others do not find and take the stash, what good are they to the Losties hidden out in the Jungle of Mystery? Oh excuse me a moment OtherAttacker whilst I trot out in the canopy and get me a weapon.

And how does Sheriff Barney Sawyer plan to control the stash? How's he going to get out there to retrieve them without someone following him? How much "power" does any self-proclaimed leader really have? Only as much as the other castaways care to give him. Locke, Jack, Ana and Sawyer can huff and puff all they want about who's in charge, but in a place with no structure and no laws, the rest of the group can and should simply tell each of them to go straight to you know where.

So did he do something for the greater good? IMO, not on purpose and certainly not very well.

Also, for those who think Charlie beyond redemption now for dragging Sun, did you feel the same way when Jin knocked her down and drug her along the beach for wearing a bikini during In Translation? And did it ruin Sun for you when she tried to poison Jin? Just wondering. On the scale of island sinners, even with his penchant for botched abductions, so far Charlie still seems like real small potatos to me.

I let this stew in my head all night... but it think that Sawyer just pulled the most benificial con, ever. The guns are out of the middle of the Jack/Locke conflict, AL knows she can't get to them now, and everyone knows what the score is if they want to get their hands on a gun.

Sure, it may look like Sawyer being his usual selfish self but he's not an idiot, and we all could see how fast the gun issue was going to come to a head, and the odds of someone getting hurt. I think Sawyer figured out a way to deal with it, and not bring any suspicion down on himself as a 'good guy'.

And would Charlie *really* hurt Sun, just to get back at Locke? Charlie is pissed, and an outcast, but he's not malicious. Sawyer had to have given him a better motivation than that.

Honestly, I think Sawyer is the best person to have control of the guns. He's not going to randomly hand them out, for any old emotional reason, he's going to make people work for them, which is going to make people stop and think before heading off armed. And he doesn't care if people are pissed at him about it or not.

I don't think that Sawyer is the best person to have control of the guns. I don't think that one person should have control of the guns, period. I found nothing admirable about Sawyer's actions. The Lostaways are adults, not children. I'm not saying that accidents won't happen. But I don't see Sawyer being in control of all the guns as a good situation, either.

maybe Sawyer just got bored and decieded to plan a con for fun.

The Long Con

The island events last night took place over the course of what? ... one day? That could hardly be interpreted as a "long" time ... unless you are a mayfly.

I think Sawyer wanted the guns as part of a bigger con ... a means to an end. I think he has something stewing in his head to con the Others.

In the mean time ... his actions had the happy side effect of preventing the other lostaways from going hunting and ending up dead or worse ... doing something that would throw a wrench into Sawyer's plan ... whatever it is.

I let this stew in my head all night... but it think that Sawyer just pulled the most benificial con, ever. The guns are out of the middle of the Jack/Locke conflict, AL knows she can't get to them now, and everyone knows what the score is if they want to get their hands on a gun.

Sure, it may look like Sawyer being his usual selfish self but he's not an idiot, and we all could see how fast the gun issue was going to come to a head, and the odds of someone getting hurt. I think Sawyer figured out a way to deal with it, and not bring any suspicion down on himself as a 'good guy'.

And would Charlie *really* hurt Sun, just to get back at Locke? Charlie is pissed, and an outcast, but he's not malicious. Sawyer had to have given him a better motivation than that.

Honestly, I think Sawyer is the best person to have control of the guns. He's not going to randomly hand them out, for any old emotional reason, he's going to make people work for them, which is going to make people stop and think before heading off armed. And he doesn't care if people are pissed at him about it or not.


Although it may end up being for the great good-I don't think for a minute that those were his intentions. He's always been about keeping his stuff and making trades if
you wanted any of it. When people took his stuff when he was off the Island, it obviously pissed him off, finally pushing him over the edge when Jack took back the pills. His goal was to take control from Locke and Jack. Not so much to control everyone on the Island, but more so he doesn't have to answer to them. At least
that's what I believe.

Charlie's just upset that Locke made him look like a fool and didn't try and reason
with him when he told Locke about his dreams. For sure in future episode, Sawyer
will ask Charlie for help on something and use this as blackmail against Charlie if he
so chooses not to help.

Agree. Sawyer wanted everyone to hate him and Charlie wanted revenge. Any benefit from taking the guns away from Jack and Locke is just collateral.

The potentially horrible outcome was something Saywer and Charlie planned.

But to hurt Sun in the process? He pretty much lost me forever at that point.

Sun hurt herself - she said it - she was being dragged, struggled, got free, ran for it and fell - knocking her out and causing the cut on her head. I dont think Charlie realized how wiry she would be. And no, not right but inevitably effective for their positioning.

IMO I don't think the horrible outcome was what Sawyer and Charlie did - I'm talking about something like "civil war" - sides against eachother at the Losties camp - maybe one side getting the guns- one won't. They'll turn on eachother before the Others have a chance to do anything to them. Just I guess my questioning would be did Sawyer help relieve that situation or escalate it?

Maybe I am blinded by my love of Sawyer, but I think what he did was definitely for the good of teh group. Sawyer is a much better personality for a sheriff than Jack the over-passionate doctor, or faaith man Locke (as much as I love him Locke, I do think he has too much of an agenda).

Sawyer is not going to put up with people's BS, or be swayed by emotional arguments.He also won't abuse the power imo.

I was actually completely impressed by him in last night's epi.

sawyer is not one to do for the greater good. while his actions could ultimately bring more balance to the group there is no way that he made such a plan for the good of the group. he has spent the entire time on the island pursuing his own interests. thats his character. thats what he does. a tiger doesnt change his stripes. his motives are purely for his own benefit. there is good in him somewhere but i dont think that good is not part of this plan

I let this stew in my head all night... but it think that Sawyer just pulled the most benificial con, ever. The guns are out of the middle of the Jack/Locke conflict, AL knows she can't get to them now, and everyone knows what the score is if they want to get their hands on a gun.

Sure, it may look like Sawyer being his usual selfish self but he's not an idiot, and we all could see how fast the gun issue was going to come to a head, and the odds of someone getting hurt. I think Sawyer figured out a way to deal with it, and not bring any suspicion down on himself as a 'good guy'.

And would Charlie *really* hurt Sun, just to get back at Locke? Charlie is pissed, and an outcast, but he's not malicious. Sawyer had to have given him a better motivation than that.

Honestly, I think Sawyer is the best person to have control of the guns. He's not going to randomly hand them out, for any old emotional reason, he's going to make people work for them, which is going to make people stop and think before heading off armed. And he doesn't care if people are pissed at him about it or not.
I think you may have touched on something here. Sawyer is very possibly in the early stages of a long con that may not resolve for many episodes or even into next season. His marks may be Jack or Locke (or both), but the target is more likely Zeke and the Others. I think his motive is personal satisfaction rather than "the greater good".

Sawyer knows the Others want guns and he knows they are watching so if they don't already know the power has shifted to Sawyer, they will soon and they will play into Sawyer trap.

I think getting the guns was so HE could decide how this "war" is gonna go. He doesn't trust (or like) Jack or Ana Lucia, or Sayid for that matter. Not sure on his feelings toward Locke, but I sure don't trust Locke in charge of the weapons. He wanted to let the monster drag him down the hole, the island speaks to him, he's a bit irrational...

Anyway, I think he had good and bad intentions. Obviously he wants to get back at the others so I'm not worried that he would never hand out the guns, but he's not gonna be foolish and give them all out to just anyone. Bottomline, I'm glad he's in control...

Ya'll help me out here. What exactly is Sawyer in control of?

The only thing he has on the other leader-wannabes is that he knows where the guns are (if the Others haven't taken them yet) and they don't.

But in reality, Sawyer has no more access to them than Jack or Locke. By ANNOUNCING that he hid them, he of course eliminates himself from having access to them. Now he will be constantly monitored and followed, and quite possibly more drastic measures will be taken to get him to spill.

Please tell me the writers do not have the intention of making us believe that Sawyer, the self-proclaimed gun king, will be able to slip off at will and hand a gun out to the Lostie of his choice whenever he wishes. Just, NO.

If it makes Sawyer "in control" to have taken the guns out of possession of Jack and Locke and put them where the Others can easily take them, then color him the new Poohbah.

And is he now "in control" of the Group as the leader now that he out-conned Jack and Locke? Why would that be?

What I hope is that this is a continuing long con, and Sawyer was smart enough NOT to go hide the guns in Otherland and then come back and announce it. See my previous spec that maybe he and Locke are in cohoots as conners of Jack and the guns ended up right back in the vault.

But as we left things last night, I see Sawyer as being "in control" of nada.

Please tell me the writers do not have the intention of making us believe that Sawyer, the self-proclaimed gun king, will be able to slip off at will and hand a gun out to the Lostie of his choice whenever he wishes. Just, NO.

I think you're right - didn't Kate say to Sawyer last night that he couldn't track so how did he follow Locke? So if he can't track - how can he possibly slip in and out without notice? Especially from the likes of Sayid or Locke or Eko - who can track very well.

He's probably hiding them in plain sight. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't buried in one of the graves. I know that sounds a bit gruesome but its freshly disturbed earth that no one would pay particular attention to.

I can't believe I thought of that...but Ethan might be sleeping with them right at this moment. No one visits his grave. Its what I would do.

Actually, I think it was Charlie who followed Locke and then reported back to Sawyer on where Locke stashed the guns.

This is also a stretch though since just a few eps ago Charlie tried to track Locke with laughable results. But some have defended this by saying Locke was so intent on hiding the weapons that this time he didn't notice Charlie trailing him.

Regardless, its going to be a hard sell, at least for me, to think Sawyer could ever go off and visit his guns without detection, or have Charlie bring some of them to him without notice.

So I hope something a bit more satisfying is going on. Otherwise all Sawyer did was remove the arsenal from the fledgling "Army" and probably hand them over to the Others.

After reading through a lot of threads and posts about Sawyer and the guns, this theory is sort of refreshing. I'm not sure that Sawyer would have done it on purpose, but it might be an unintended side benefit. I believe he definitely wanted to get everyone to hate him again for some reason. Whether or not that was to get the rest of them to band together remains to be seen. Sawyer is uncomfortable with people liking him. He doesn't feel worthy. But I'm not convinced that would be his sole motivation. There's something else going on.
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He's probably hiding them in plain sight. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't buried in one of the graves. I know that sounds a bit gruesome but its freshly disturbed earth that no one would pay particular attention to.

I can't believe I thought of that...but Ethan might be sleeping with them right at this moment. No one visits his grave. Its what I would do.

Elfdream....i like the way your mind works! :biggrin:

He's probably hiding them in plain sight. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't buried in one of the graves. I know that sounds a bit gruesome but its freshly disturbed earth that no one would pay particular attention to.

I can't believe I thought of that...but Ethan might be sleeping with them right at this moment. No one visits his grave. Its what I would do.

hmm good idea! Also I liked how you picked Ethan - if it were Shannon or Boone - people would actually visit their graves but I highly doubt people will be going to pay their respects to Ethan. Less traffic = more freedom to come and go at will.

And yes I can see somehow the Other's finding the gun stash and leaving the Lostaways totally unprotected... then everyone turning on Sawyer.

Well,
I liked the episode and here is why I think Sawyer did this. He has been hording stuff since they crashed, that is true, but he hasn't stolen anything from anybody alive. He was just surviving and it is my guess that Sawyer is good at surviving. After his parents died, he probably had pretty tough childhood, imagine the stigma of growing up with knowledge that your father killed your mother, and then himself, and then as you can reason things, realize that your mother cared nothing about her child(that would be a kid's perspective) and cheated on your Dad destroying the family, and then your Dad cared nothing for his son either, cared only about how he was wronged and miserable and killed your mother and himself leaving you all alone in the world. My guess is that Sawyer has been "knocked"(his own words) around during his growing up whoever he was with and had to fend for himself.
So, he grows up knowing that he matters none at all, and that it si best not to hope for any love or care from anybody, heck even his parents didn't care a wit about him so why should anybody else? So, what do you grow up believing? It is up to you to care aobut yourself and take care of yourself. As he even said, it is everyman for himself.
So far, he has been prejudiced, shallow, and petty but not downright evil at all. He did pull out of the con when he saw a child was involved? He did pull out the gun at Zeke at the raft when they said they were going to take Walt. He didn't have to do that since it seems the Other's weren't after anybody else but the Walt, he even said to Michael that he was trying to save his kid. He told Jack about his Dad. He encouraged Hurley to go after the girl he likes. He did kill the wrong man in Australia and yet again proved to himself that he can't do anything right.
Now, I know my post is getting too long here. If we look at everything people have done to him we can see why he would be ticked off. First Boone goes through his things without even asking, then Jack does the same, then they torture him, then he gets stabbed, then he is accused of being the convict who was on the plane, Kate tells him she will get him off the raft if she wants to, Michael is about to kick him off the raft just so, without a second thought. Then he saves Michael in the waters, goes after the sturdy part of the raft and gets chased by sharks, and then Michael breaks the raft and leaves him in the water because Michael is mad...
Ana Lucia hits him repeatedly and wants to leave him for dead.
Now, I am not saying that he didn't do his share of bad things, but it seems that I would be ticked off if I was him. He also wants guns, and he has a reason to have a gun, with the Others running around he doesn't want to ask Jack: Can I have a gun please to defend myself, Boss? He is strong enough not to feel the need to follow Jack or Locke, and even after all this time Jack couldn't just ask for medicines He has to just dig into his things? Heck, evil or good or gray, I say good for Sawyer.
Just my thoughts, mostly rambling but there you go.

I liked the twist, as for the greater good I am not sure. I think Sawyer had reason to be ticked off at Jack for disregarding his right to property. He came up with a plan that would make sure no one else would think of doing the same again. I was reminded of Bruce Cambell in Army of Darkness when Sawyer came out of the Jungle, I was half expecting him to yell "Alright you savages! This is my Boomstick!"

As he even said, it is everyman for himself.
So far, he has been prejudiced, shallow, and petty but not downright evil at all. He did pull out of the con when he saw a child was involved? He did pull out the gun at Zeke at the raft when they said they were going to take Walt. He didn't have to do that since it seems the Other's weren't after anybody else but the Walt, he even said to Michael that he was trying to save his kid. He told Jack about his Dad. He encouraged Hurley to go after the girl he likes. He did kill the wrong man in Australia and yet again proved to himself that he can't do anything right.
... If we look at everything people have done to him we can see why he would be ticked off. First Boone goes through his things without even asking, then Jack does the same, then they torture him, then he gets stabbed, then he is accused of being the convict who was on the plane, Kate tells him she will get him off the raft if she wants to, Michael is about to kick him off the raft just so, without a second thought. Then he saves Michael in the waters, goes after the sturdy part of the raft and gets chased by sharks, and then Michael breaks the raft and leaves him in the water because Michael is mad...
Ana Lucia hits him repeatedly and wants to leave him for dead.
Now, I am not saying that he didn't do his share of bad things, but it seems that I would be ticked off if I was him. He also wants guns, and he has a reason to have a gun, with the Others running around he doesn't want to ask Jack: Can I have a gun please to defend myself, Boss? He is strong enough not to feel the need to follow Jack or Locke, and even after all this time Jack couldn't just ask for medicines He has to just dig into his things? Heck, evil or good or gray, I say good for Sawyer.


I love this 'ramble'! With regards to motivation, Sawyer's self-interest and the greater good are not mutually exclusive. It is in Sawyer's best interest not to be alone fending for himself. It is in his best interest from a self-preservation standpoint - as well as in the interest of the the lostaways - for the group to be aligned. If that means united in their hatred of him, at least there's not a fractious, loose bunch of people around him, easy targets to be picked off one at a time.

Convincing Charlie to pseudo-kidnap Sun could have been simultaneously (1) a reminder that there are mysterious, evil lurking others on the island and that no one is really 'safe', (2) taking the guns out of the immediate equation of power struggle; (3) giving Sawyer *temporary* control of the situation.

And it is Sawyer's self-interest to control the situation ... whatever the situation may be. He's the best poker player on the island. Locke may be mysterious, but he likes to lecture. Sawyer keeps his mouth shut and no one knows his 'tells'. It's like he's been watching everyone play and figured everyone out. He is no dummy - he knows he is outnumbered, and he knows he will be watched and followed. But Charlie won't be. Currently Charlie's being ignored. And the lostaways have effectively exiled the two together. Convenient.

Also, I think the "con" has been since day one, it has just evolved. By that I mean, Sawyer is keeping himself isolated, which he equates with safe, but doing just enough to keep the others close and controlled. And he does whatever it takes to preserve the isolation, maintain a degree of control. I don't think there's a specific plan, I think it's an ever-changing plan based on self-preservation.

Lastly, I don't think we've seen the last of that flashback. I like the theory that he done Cassidy wrong just as it appears and that she goes on to somehow hook up with Kate and teach her cons. I wouldn't be surprised if an episode in the future we find out that Cassidy got the cash (which she wires to Kate as needed? could she be that friend?) and Sawyer got the newspaper.

I love this 'ramble'! With regards to motivation, Sawyer's self-interest and the greater good are not mutually exclusive. It is in Sawyer's best interest not to be alone fending for himself. It is in his best interest from a self-preservation standpoint - as well as in the interest of the the lostaways - for the group to be aligned. If that means united in their hatred of him, at least there's not a fractious, loose bunch of people around him, easy targets to be picked off one at a time.

Convincing Charlie to pseudo-kidnap Sun could have been simultaneously (1) a reminder that there are mysterious, evil lurking others on the island and that no one is really 'safe', (2) taking the guns out of the immediate equation of power struggle; (3) giving Sawyer *temporary* control of the situation.

And it is Sawyer's self-interest to control the situation ... whatever the situation may be. He's the best poker player on the island. Locke may be mysterious, but he likes to lecture. Sawyer keeps his mouth shut and no one knows his 'tells'. It's like he's been watching everyone play and figured everyone out. He is no dummy - he knows he is outnumbered, and he knows he will be watched and followed. But Charlie won't be. Currently Charlie's being ignored. And the lostaways have effectively exiled the two together. Convenient.

Also, I think the "con" has been since day one, it has just evolved. By that I mean, Sawyer is keeping himself isolated, which he equates with safe, but doing just enough to keep the others close and controlled. And he does whatever it takes to preserve the isolation, maintain a degree of control. I don't think there's a specific plan, I think it's an ever-changing plan based on self-preservation.

Lastly, I don't think we've seen the last of that flashback. I like the theory that he done Cassidy wrong just as it appears and that she goes on to somehow hook up with Kate and teach her cons. I wouldn't be surprised if an episode in the future we find out that Cassidy got the cash (which she wires to Kate as needed? could she be that friend?) and Sawyer got the newspaper.
I really like what you're saying here. What you suggest in regards to motivation makes a lot of sense. I never considered Cassidy being Kate's friend that sent her the letter. That could be a VERY interesting connection, should it prove to be true!

ETA: in the episode in S1 when Kate was robbing the bank, didn't she say "it's all in the details"? Sawyer said that last night. Could Cassidy have taught Kate how to con after Sawyer taught her?
ETA 2: knew I saw the above eta somewhere...SamG posted regarding this in the LLL thread for The Long Con. Gotta give credit where credit is due!

Well,
I liked the episode and here is why I think Sawyer did this. He has been hording stuff since they crashed, that is true, but he hasn't stolen anything from anybody alive. He was just surviving and it is my guess that Sawyer is good at surviving. After his parents died, he probably had pretty tough childhood, imagine the stigma of growing up with knowledge that your father killed your mother, and then himself, and then as you can reason things, realize that your mother cared nothing about her child(that would be a kid's perspective) and cheated on your Dad destroying the family, and then your Dad cared nothing for his son either, cared only about how he was wronged and miserable and killed your mother and himself leaving you all alone in the world. My guess is that Sawyer has been "knocked"(his own words) around during his growing up whoever he was with and had to fend for himself.
So, he grows up knowing that he matters none at all, and that it si best not to hope for any love or care from anybody, heck even his parents didn't care a wit about him so why should anybody else? So, what do you grow up believing? It is up to you to care aobut yourself and take care of yourself. As he even said, it is everyman for himself.
So far, he has been prejudiced, shallow, and petty but not downright evil at all. He did pull out of the con when he saw a child was involved? He did pull out the gun at Zeke at the raft when they said they were going to take Walt. He didn't have to do that since it seems the Other's weren't after anybody else but the Walt, he even said to Michael that he was trying to save his kid. He told Jack about his Dad. He encouraged Hurley to go after the girl he likes. He did kill the wrong man in Australia and yet again proved to himself that he can't do anything right.
Now, I know my post is getting too long here. If we look at everything people have done to him we can see why he would be ticked off. First Boone goes through his things without even asking, then Jack does the same, then they torture him, then he gets stabbed, then he is accused of being the convict who was on the plane, Kate tells him she will get him off the raft if she wants to, Michael is about to kick him off the raft just so, without a second thought. Then he saves Michael in the waters, goes after the sturdy part of the raft and gets chased by sharks, and then Michael breaks the raft and leaves him in the water because Michael is mad...
Ana Lucia hits him repeatedly and wants to leave him for dead.
Now, I am not saying that he didn't do his share of bad things, but it seems that I would be ticked off if I was him. He also wants guns, and he has a reason to have a gun, with the Others running around he doesn't want to ask Jack: Can I have a gun please to defend myself, Boss? He is strong enough not to feel the need to follow Jack or Locke, and even after all this time Jack couldn't just ask for medicines He has to just dig into his things? Heck, evil or good or gray, I say good for Sawyer.
Just my thoughts, mostly rambling but there you go.

Hey man good for you, nice rant youve got going on there. I defenately agree with you that Sawyer has had his fair share of bad luck, he has been kicked around a bit and he has had a bad life. However I do not tihnk he did what he did because hes 'ticked off' about what has happened to him. However niether do I bleive that he has done what he has done for the greater good, as the theroy in this thread suggests (although I would really like to believe that the 'greater good' theory is true). I personally agree with the theory that Sawyer just wants to be hated, he is a self-loathing con man (sorry i am sorta quoting what some1 else sed here and amen to whoever said it) so he doesnt belive he deserves love or compashion, he simply wants to be hated...

What if the Long Con also means connining the others? Sawyer knows that Zeke is out there and that he took the guns that they had when they went out to find Michael.What if Sawyer along with someone else is trying to get the others to come out and trap them?The others pretty much knowwhat is going on with our Losties,so if they know that the guns our not with them and just one man who seem to have an agenda of his own, why not come in for the kill?But because it was a con all along thats when our losties come in with the attack?(Rambling I know,but I just love this show! It makes you think outside the box!):)

I personally agree with the theory that Sawyer just wants to be hated, he is a self-loathing con man (sorry i am sorta quoting what some1 else sed here and amen to whoever said it) so he doesnt belive he deserves love or compashion, he simply wants to be hated... Heh, that was me! :biggrin:

I don't see how Sawyer really did anything differently than what Locke was trying to do. Locke did not want people getting their hands on the guns, that is why he changed the combination, but he let Jack know incase "something happened to him" (Jack obviously was lying to Locke about this reason for him wanting to know the combination).

I think Sawyer removed the conflict between Jack and Locke but now there will just be a conflict between Jack and Sawyer, surprise, surprise.

I don't see how Sawyer really did anything differently than what Locke was trying to do. Locke did not want people getting their hands on the guns, that is why he changed the combination, but he let Jack know incase "something happened to him" (Jack obviously was lying to Locke about this reason for him wanting to know the combination).

I think Sawyer removed the conflict between Jack and Locke but now there will just be a conflict between Jack and Sawyer, surprise, surprise.

Definitely a conflict between Jack, Sawyer AND Locke. However was it just me or did Kate seem to easy to fluff off what Sawyer did? Yes she questioned him on it but really wasn't acting like it was as big of a deal as the other Losties would... is it just her relationship with Sawyer that she she didn't get as upset with him stealing the guns?

I don't see how Sawyer really did anything differently than what Locke was trying to do. Locke did not want people getting their hands on the guns, that is why he changed the combination, but he let Jack know incase "something happened to him" (Jack obviously was lying to Locke about this reason for him wanting to know the combination).
Hmm...interesting point there. I hadn't thought of it like that. I guess (after ruminating for a moment) that the difference is that Locke, rightly or wrongly, has some consensus behind him as a viable leader-figure. I don't trust him myself, but a bunch of the survivors do and would probably 'vote' for him for Secretary of Defense, so to speak. Sawyer, on the other hand, is a dangerous maverick whom I don't think anyone would trust with the group's safety.

From the viewer's point of view, I don't know that Locke's endgame, whatever it is, is any less dangerous, but he's the more "democratic" choice, if that makes sense.

Sawyer is the worst con artist of all time. He made all the right plays but had no escape plan, which has gotta be one of the primary rules of being a con--
1. He has to somehow avoid falling asleep on the island now, when you really think about it. Every time he shuts his eyes, any one of the survivors could take a club to the back of his head. Smart move, putting yourself in a corner like that. Sooner or later, Jack is going to do the math and figure that it's better to have no guns at all until they find the stash, rather than have some jive talking, self-serving, irrational and dangerous man being in control of them.
2. He has to somehow keep an eye out on the weapons stash, constantly.
3. He got the payoff, but there is no benefit to him having the weapons. Now his 'camp' is defenseless, save for him thinking he can be some kind of one-man army, and the last time I checked, that job was reserved for John Rambo.
4. ''You can torture me all you want, but I'll die before I give up the guns.'' YEAH RIGHT, buddy. Everyone breaks. Sayid knows this.

I'm glad he took them. If for nothing else I was getting tired of the Jack/Locke 'I want them-no you can't have them' squabbles.

The thing is though if Locke had hidden them what would there be to keep him from getting a club to the back of the head..or Sayid torturing him with Jack standing by agreeing to it all? They've done it before.

Maybe Sawyer did him a favor.

What if the Long Con also means connining the others? Sawyer knows that Zeke is out there and that he took the guns that they had when they went out to find Michael.What if Sawyer along with someone else is trying to get the others to come out and trap them?The others pretty much knowwhat is going on with our Losties,so if they know that the guns our not with them and just one man who seem to have an agenda of his own, why not come in for the kill?But because it was a con all along thats when our losties come in with the attack?(Rambling I know,but I just love this show! It makes you think outside the box!):)

Uhm this makes so much sense to me. When I was watching last night I kept thinking the whole Sawyer gun rant looked super staged. Nobody said anything, nobody flew off the handle (Jack & John I'm looking at you). Maybe they kept it under raps because they don't know if there is a mole or not. But then why would Locke and Sawyer have that discussion in the hatch? Unsure.

I concur for the most part. Post-Island Sawyer has behaved. Jack, Kate, Boone, and other lost-a-ways have presumed he was up to no good but he consistantly does the right thing. He is very terrritorial about his campsite taking a poke at Boone and he squared off with Jack. Maybe he has something to hide, maybe he just wants people to respect "his" things.
"I don't know what kind of commie share fest you're running up in Cave town" But down here possession is 9/10ths." Con or not, he did deescalate the situation.

I disagree.

First, I thought the point of the ep was that Sawyer never can bring himself to do anything for the greater good, even when he has a brief notion in that direction.

Second, even if that was his intention, hiding the guns in the jungle was the most inept attempt at helping the group imaginable. This new sheriff is way more Barney than Andy.

Helping the greater good by hiding the guns in the jungle he knows to be controlled by the Others? The same Others who watch the Losties so closely they know them by name and even have a Santa-like good/bad list? What are they chances that Zeke and the gang are not lovingly polishing their new arsenal even as we type?


Finally some reason. The ends do not justify the means. Having 2 people (and only two) control the guns in a locked room makes much more sense, plus there's always somebody in the hatch to keep an eye out to who comes and goes. Wherever Sawyer hid them- they CAN be found by anybody.

Sawyer is the worst con artist of all time. He made all the right plays but had no escape plan, which has gotta be one of the primary rules of being a con--
1. He has to somehow avoid falling asleep on the island now, when you really think about it. Every time he shuts his eyes, any one of the survivors could take a club to the back of his head. Smart move, putting yourself in a corner like that. Sooner or later, Jack is going to do the math and figure that it's better to have no guns at all until they find the stash, rather than have some jive talking, self-serving, irrational and dangerous man being in control of them.
2. He has to somehow keep an eye out on the weapons stash, constantly.
3. He got the payoff, but there is no benefit to him having the weapons. Now his 'camp' is defenseless, save for him thinking he can be some kind of one-man army, and the last time I checked, that job was reserved for John Rambo.
4. ''You can torture me all you want, but I'll die before I give up the guns.'' YEAH RIGHT, buddy. Everyone breaks. Sayid knows this.

I really do not think he took the guns to keep them, so most of this really isnt a problem for him. I really dont think its really about guns, theres more to it than that (just like kate said).

Can we be sure about that? We know almost nothing about Sawyer's real motivations for doing things. We, like the Losties, assume he's just a jerk out to only do things for himself.


And the reason we the audience think that is because Sawyer himself said, I've never done a good thing in all my life. For me to suddenly believe that he was lying when he said that would be naive.

And the reason we the audience think that is because Sawyer himself said, I've never done a good thing in all my life. For me to suddenly believe that he was lying when he said that would be naive.

And nothing any of the gang has ever said to anyone else has been a red herring to throw them off the trail? Half of what these people have said has been lies and misdirection. And we've seen him to at least one good thing, tell Jack about meeting his father.

These people didn't even find the door to the bunker. I highly doubt they will find one lone stash of guns that are cleverly hidden. For all we know Sawyer divided them up and they are in several different locations...

At least that is what I would do.

And nothing any of the gang has ever said to anyone else has been a red herring to throw them off the trail? Half of what these people have said has been lies and misdirection. And we've seen him to at least one good thing, tell Jack about meeting his father.

How would, I've never done a good thing in all my life, be a red herring? If Sawyer wanted to redeem himself, he knows what to do.

My theory:

Sawyer suspects a spy in the camp and this is some sort of method to draw that
person out and/or keep the guns away from him/her.

This may not be the place to say it, but it really bugs me that Sawyer wasted so much precious ammunition just to get everyone's attention.

This may not be the place to say it, but it really bugs me that Sawyer wasted so much precious ammunition just to get everyone's attention.

Lol, dont worry i dont think people here get annoyed about funny things like that :D

How would, I've never done a good thing in all my life, be a red herring? .

Because we've SEEN him do good things on the island. So what he said to Charlie was not the truth. At all. He wants everyone to believe that he's never done a good thing. But it's not the truth.

Nah I believe his, "a tiger never changes his stripes" comment. A person makes their own choices and if he wants to be hated so badly then so be it. I'm not going to think he's better than what he is especially if he wants people to hate him.

This may not be the place to say it, but it really bugs me that Sawyer wasted so much precious ammunition just to get everyone's attention.
I felt the same way! I was like "HELLO! You have a lot of bullets and all, but calm the hell down with the shooting!" :smile:

First time posting, hello everyone!

Two things came to mind while watching this...Jack saved Sawyers life and Sawyer either conned Kate or she is in on it.
I thought it was alwfully "ballsy" of Sawyer to alienate himself like that.
All the points that have been brought up so far are wonderful!

Nah I believe his, "a tiger never changes his stripes" comment. A person makes their own choices and if he wants to be hated so badly then so be it. I'm not going to think he's better than what he is especially if he wants people to hate him.

Youre a Jack fan arent you :D

Youre a Jack fan arent you :D

Yeppers. :) But I am capable of seeing the good and bad in Jack and I do analyze every character in the same way. If a person doesn't want anyone to think he's good, then why should I waste my time defending him?

I think Sawyer was really getting tired of being told what to do and not having a say.His partner in the con told him what to do. He had risked his life and had nothing to show for it. Not to able to have any pain medicine for his gunshot was the last straw. Also I think he wanted to show Jack and Locke how little power they had by being able to take it away. Also I think when Sawyer see a chance to get revenge on the Others he dosen't want to plead his chance with anybody.

I let this stew in my head all night... but it think that Sawyer just pulled the most benificial con, ever. The guns are out of the middle of the Jack/Locke conflict, AL knows she can't get to them now, and everyone knows what the score is if they want to get their hands on a gun.

Sure, it may look like Sawyer being his usual selfish self but he's not an idiot, and we all could see how fast the gun issue was going to come to a head, and the odds of someone getting hurt. I think Sawyer figured out a way to deal with it, and not bring any suspicion down on himself as a 'good guy'.

And would Charlie *really* hurt Sun, just to get back at Locke? Charlie is pissed, and an outcast, but he's not malicious. Sawyer had to have given him a better motivation than that.

Honestly, I think Sawyer is the best person to have control of the guns. He's not going to randomly hand them out, for any old emotional reason, he's going to make people work for them, which is going to make people stop and think before heading off armed. And he doesn't care if people are pissed at him about it or not.

EXACTLY! you echoed my thoughts completely!

I dont' think Sawyer realized what he was doing when he took the guns. He wanted control for himself. He felt like he was slipping...like he was losing himself on the island...and this was a showy way to prove to others (and mostly himself) that he's still the same old Sawyer.

BUT he may have inadvertently made a really good decision...for all the reasons you mentioned.

It's particularly important that Sawyer will make them work for the guns...because now no one will be able to get their hands on one unless they can make him a solid argument. And if they have to take the time to do that...they won't be acting out of immediate anger or fear. They'll have to be logical...and therefore make better decisions.
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Nah I believe his, "a tiger never changes his stripes" comment. A person makes their own choices and if he wants to be hated so badly then so be it. I'm not going to think he's better than what he is especially if he wants people to hate him.

But we've SEEN that Sawyer can do good things. We've seen him put himself in danger for others...we've seen him be loyal to his friends. Just because someone wants to be hated...and because they want to believe that they can't change...doesn't mean we should give up on them, or even agree with them ;)

It's your perogative of course...but I think that the fact that he's going so far out of his way to prove that he's jerk...shows that he's afraid that people will see that he's capable of more. They DID see it in him...and they were all treating him differently...and he couldn't take it.

Self hatred is a defense mechanism for people who are really screwed up. YES people make their own choices and they have to take responsibility for them. But there's a difference between thinking someone should accept the consequences of their actions...and believing they're not capable of good behaviour if they can only get out of their own head for awhile.

I think Sawyer will never admittedly be a "good guy". Even if he had good intentions, he would not let the people know it. It puts too much pressure and responsibility on him.

That being said, I think he knew it was a bad situation regarding Jack and the guns. I don't think he has a problem with Locke, but he definitely did not like Jack being in the picture. Jack can't control his emotions in the same way that Locke usually can.

Whether he knows it or not, I think Sawyer saved the day. In the past, his hoarding ways have always been a benefit to those around him. Sawyer may think he is the new sheriff ... but he really an "island-style" librarian. He is inadvertently organizing and protecting the available resources, so they will last as long as possible.

Besides, he has learned the hard way that when people combine guns with human emotions .... it can only lead to trouble. Guns have not been a good factor in his life. He lost his parents as a result, killed an innocent man, got shot on the island .... I don't think he likes guns.

I do think Sawyer put himself out there for the good of the people. I think he is accepting the hate from everybody, but he is doing it to save their butts. Jack and Locke are not stable enough to be in charge of the guns. Sawyer on the other hand, is the most cool and collected person on the island. Not only that, but he also knows how to keep people in check, something that the island desperatley needs. People need order to function correctly, with Jack or Locke in charge there would be no order. Jack was going to give the guns to anybody and then have them walk around the jungle shooting at anything that moves, thats not a very responsible way to go about things. Sawyer is strict, he is the law on the island, if he didnt take away the guns, people would have been dead by the end with half an hour left in the show.

I do think Sawyer put himself out there for the good of the people. I think he is accepting the hate from everybody, but he is doing it to save their butts. Jack and Locke are not stable enough to be in charge of the guns. Sawyer on the other hand, is the most cool and collected person on the island. Not only that, but he also knows how to keep people in check, something that the island desperatley needs. People need order to function correctly, with Jack or Locke in charge there would be no order. Jack was going to give the guns to anybody and then have them walk around the jungle shooting at anything that moves, thats not a very responsible way to go about things. Sawyer is strict, he is the law on the island, if he didnt take away the guns, people would have been dead by the end with half an hour left in the show.

Sawyer admittedly doesn't do anything except worry about Sawyer. He was bent out of shape because Jack took the pills back and struck out like an angry child at Jack. He plays people against one another - not for the good of the people involved, but for his own amusement. Jack have done his best to take care of the people in their group and has done numerous things without regard to his own safety in order to help them out (gone after the transciever, fought with Ethan regarding Claire, tried to save Johanna, emptied his blood to treat a dying Boone, kept Locke from being pulled in the hole by the "monster", carried dynamite to blow open the hatch, tried to get Michael back, etc.) Sawyer, on the other hand, has spent the majority of his time on the island not trying to help others, but seeing to his own needs. That isn't a leader. I'll admit that he is a teriffic con man and that he picks up on the weaknesses of others, but he uses this "talent" for evil, not for the betterment of the group.

Jack and Locke are not stable enough to be in charge of the guns. Sawyer on the other hand, is the most cool and collected person on the island.

Okay, I don't know if we can come up with a common stability-meter, (on which Locke would indeed score very low), so don't take this the wrong way but... are we talking about the same guy that beat the crap out of the scrawny metrosexual without even bothering to you know... ask something, aything first. Oh, wait. That's nothing compared to shooting first, asking essential questions such as: "Hey, you Sawyer by any chance?" later.

Sawyer is strict, he is the law on the island.

So was Stalin. Look how that turned out for 20 million people, give or take a few hundreds of thousands of starving Ukrainians.

Guys, I'm a big Sawyer fan. I want him to find redemption. But there's more than one way of doing that. And idealizing his actions or who he is is not the best method, IMO.

I would like Sawyer to find redemption also....but...he is tempting fate at every turn and if history repeats, he could really tempt fate.

(passes around the home-made brownies and mugs of hot coco)

hmmmm. I would like him to find his soul but at no one else's expense.

Good or evil, Sawyer's no idiot. He clearly knew that this move would keep him from ever accessing the gun stash for fear of being followed. His intention was simply to get the guns out of the picture (which by default, increases his power since he's perhaps the strongest on the island)

His intentions were simply to best deal with the others, whom he hates as much as anyone. But unlike everyone else, he's actually tried to shoot them down with a gun and only gotten nailed as a result (twice!) He knows waving around firearms without some more intel is hopeless. Now, without any guns to huff about, Jack and Locke will focus on gathering more information on the Others.

I think in the end Sawyer is going to be the victim of a vicious con. What goes around....

I think in the end Sawyer is going to be the victim of a vicious con. What goes around....

My sentiments exactly but one in which he assumes he is the principal and not the mark.

His part was to get the guns out of the Lostie's Hands.

What a tangled web we weave.....

I LOVE THIS SHOW!!!!!

I think in the end Sawyer is going to be the victim of a vicious con. What goes around....

I agree with you.

Guys, I'm a big Sawyer fan. I want him to find redemption. But there's more than one way of doing that. And idealizing his actions or who he is is not the best method, IMO.

I'm a huge Sawyer fan too...and I don't idealize his actions at all. I think that using Sun the way he did was dispicable...there was NO excuse for that. Anyway you want to paint it, he had no justification for putting an innocent person in danger.

When it comes to the guns, however, I actually think that his control of them will not turn out to be a bad thing. I know he did it for selfish reasons, but I still think they're better off out of Jack and Locke's hands.

I think in the end Sawyer is going to be the victim of a vicious con. What goes around....
Thank god. Then all these things oughta pay off for Sawyer:


Shooting the polar bear and saving the others. (PIL)
Putting the marshal out of his misery, even though it was clearly hard for him (TR)
Protecting Kate from the boar stampede instead of hightailing it himself (WALK)
Helping to break up the fight between Michael and Jin, even though there were a ton of other people on the beach (HoRS)
Went to tell Kate about Jack being trapped in the cave-in, despite the fact he despised Jack (Moth)
Gave up a con once he found out a child was involved (Con Man)
Kept Sayid's signal fire burning, after Sayid had tortured him (ATBCHDI)
Was watching over Kate in the jungle after Claire had been kidnapped (WTCMB)
Helped catch Ethan (HC)
Didn't shoot the boar (OUT)
Read to Aaron to help keep him calm (GG)
Took a bullet for Walt (EX)
Risked his life going for the pontoon for him and Michael (Adrift)
Wouldn't leave the pit till he knew his 'friend' were alright (EHH)
Tried to goad Michael into leaving him behind so they could move on (Abandoned)
Insisted on helping to find Michael, instead of worrying about his own injuries (THP)
Tried to help Hurley find love (FW)
Tried to help put out the fire Charlie started (FW)
Gave up his happiness with Cassidy to keep her (and yes, himself) from getting shot (TLC)



I realize these two may just be my shipper's heart talking, but they showed his good side, nonetheless:

Threatened Zeke in regards to hurting Kate (THP)
Tried to ease Kate's guilt at being caught by the others (THP)


So YES, thank GOD what goes around, comes around. Sawyer's life has been pretty crappy, some of it his fault, some of it not, but put these next to a list of Sawyer's bad deeds and he may just be about close to breakin' even. ;)


Guys, I'm a big Sawyer fan. I want him to find redemption. But there's more than one way of doing that. And idealizing his actions or who he is is not the best method, IMO.
ITA - you have to look at the GOOD and the BAD - you can't rationalize everything away, whether you're a fan, or a detractor.

I have a question:

Besides the play for the guns (which I hardly doubt are that important to him) what exactly has Sawyer stolen besides the gun off the dying marshall and the pills he flipped back to Jack from the LIVING people on the island?

:confused:

I also agree with most of this - I think Sawyer saw what was happening and saw that it was going to have a horrible outcome in the end so he played it off as him getting back for taking his stuff.

There was no greater good here people. This was two selfish people doing stupid selfish things for their own selfish reasons.

Charlie did it strictly to make Locke look like an idiot. Period.
Sawyer did it soley to piss Jack off. Period.

I don't think Sawyer even WANTS the badge of "Sheriff of Tarp Town"...It's so much easier just being the smart aleck onlooker. Now, all Sawyer has become is a target for further revenge. From Locke...From Jack...From Jin....From Kate...Worse yet...What's stopping the Others from stumbling across his "hidden" stash of weapons and completely disarming them? At least in the vault they were safe from any intruders.

I don't think Sawyer (& Charlie) accomplished ANYTHING that resembles an act for "the greater good" of the Lostaways. I think they just created even more conflict.

It seems to me, and I think it has been said elsewhere, that Sawyer did what he did not take control, but to ensure that no one is controlling him. I don't think that is for the greater good at all.

Thank god. Then all these things oughta pay off for Sawyer:

Shooting the polar bear and saving the others. (PIL)
Putting the marshal out of his misery, even though it was clearly hard for him (TR)
Protecting Kate from the boar stampede instead of hightailing it himself (WALK)
Helping to break up the fight between Michael and Jin, even though there were a ton of other people on the beach (HoRS)
Went to tell Kate about Jack being trapped in the cave-in, despite the fact he despised Jack (Moth)
Gave up a con once he found out a child was involved (Con Man)
Kept Sayid's signal fire burning, after Sayid had tortured him (ATBCHDI)
Was watching over Kate in the jungle after Claire had been kidnapped (WTCMB)
Helped catch Ethan (HC)
Didn't shoot the boar (OUT)
Read to Aaron to help keep him calm (GG)
Took a bullet for Walt (EX)
Risked his life going for the pontoon for him and Michael (Adrift)
Wouldn't leave the pit till he knew his 'friend' were alright (EHH)
Tried to goad Michael into leaving him behind so they could move on (Abandoned)
Insisted on helping to find Michael, instead of worrying about his own injuries (THP)
Tried to help Hurley find love (FW)
Tried to help put out the fire Charlie started (FW)
Gave up his happiness with Cassidy to keep her (and yes, himself) from getting shot (TLC)

I realize these two may just be my shipper's heart talking, but they showed his good side, nonetheless:

Threatened Zeke in regards to hurting Kate (THP)
Tried to ease Kate's guilt at being caught by the others (THP)
So YES, thank GOD what goes around, comes around. Sawyer's life has been pretty crappy, some of it his fault, some of it not, but put these next to a list of Sawyer's bad deeds and he may just be about close to breakin' even. ;)


ITA - you have to look at the GOOD and the BAD - you can't rationalize everything away, whether you're a fan, or a detractor.

Nice list. You're right he certainly did these "kind" things. But for who? Easy. Himself. With that said, I'm not a Sawyer hater, in fact I like the character a lot. But hey, if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck.....

Some of those things benefited him...but not all of them...not by a long shot.

How did it benefit him to read to Aaron...or to give up the alcohol to help Boone...or to take a bullet from "the others"? It didn't.

And what about saving Michael's life? He could have let him drown.

Sawyer has often chosen to do the 'right' thing when it comes down to it.

Everyone does thing which will get them something in return...human nature. But take a better look at that list and you'll see that most of the stuff on it...he didn't need to do. It didn't get him anything, and in some cases it made things worse for him.

I have a question:

Besides the play for the guns (which I hardly doubt are that important to him) what exactly has Sawyer stolen besides the gun off the dying marshall and the pills he flipped back to Jack from the LIVING people on the island?

:confused:


Zoriah actually had a thread about that in the Sawyer section which I can't find right now - Zoriah?

He hasn't stolen from others, but the general concensus amongst "civilized" people is that if you come across something that may belong to someone else, it's generally frowned upon if you keep it for yourself (ie. Boone's Watership Down book, Claire's diary).

But Sawyer doesn't come from a "civilized" upbringing. To a man who spent his life conning" people to give up there things, rationalizing that they deserved to lose it if they were dumb enough to fall for his con, then keeping things he was fortunate enough to find and salvage probably makes perfect sense to him.

Funny thing is, for a man who chose "conning", he sure does seem to regret it often. He regretted conning Jess since she had a kid, and Cassidy, since she cared for her, and he even seems to regret becoming the thing he hated the most - Sawyer. But somehow he still finds himself on that path. Is it just a comfort zone kinda thing, or is a 'con man' really what he IS, not what he DOES?


Nice list. You're right he certainly did these "kind" things. But for who? Easy. Himself. With that said, I'm not a Sawyer hater, in fact I like the character a lot. But hey, if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck.....
That's an oversimplification, don't you think? Much too simple for LOST . . .

Read "What is a Man?" (http://users.telerama.com/~joseph/wman2.html), by Mark Twain . . . it's all about the philosophical idea that NO act is completely selfless.

Some of those things benefited him...but not all of them...not by a long shot.

How did it benefit him to read to Aaron...or to give up the alcohol to help Boone...or to take a bullet from "the others"? It didn't.

And what about saving Michael's life? He could have let him drown.



Aaron - If I recall correctly he made a comment about the kid wailing. This is was done to quiet him up.

Alcohol to Boone - do not recall this...was when Boone fell while in the plane?

Took a bullet from the Others (for Walt) - If I recall correctly he was attempting to draw his gun.

Save Michael's life - that is a valid one.....but I'm sure there was some ulterior motive!

Took a bullet from the Others (for Walt) - If I recall correctly he was attempting to draw his gun.

Yes, he was - how did you expect them to try and stop the others?

I don't remember exactly but when Zed or Zeke released Kate didn't Sawyer say something like, "This isn't over" or something like that.

Then he said something similar when Jack took his pills.

I think this is all part of some plan to get revenge on Jack, which he has and Zeke or Zed or whatever that guys name is. Needless to say not an obvious plan but something con-like and might involve others, not "others".

Aaron - If I recall correctly he made a comment about the kid wailing. This is was done to quiet him up.

Alcohol to Boone - do not recall this...was when Boone fell while in the plane?

Took a bullet from the Others (for Walt) - If I recall correctly he was attempting to draw his gun.

Save Michael's life - that is a valid one.....but I'm sure there was some ulterior motive!

Aaron was crying...and Sawyer told Charlie to shut him up. He wanted nothing to do with it. Charlie started following Sawyer because for some reason Sawyer's voice calmed the kid. He convinced Sawyer to read to Aaron. I'm sure he didn't want to at first because it's not exactly his style...but he gave in...and there were no benefits to him personally. Watch the scene...it's really cute :). Sawyer looks kind of uncomfortable and not sure why this kid likes to listen to him talk so much.

When Boone fell off the mountain...Kate ran to Sawyer and told him she needed the alcohol (sterilization and all). He handed it over right away...and told her he would come with her if she needed help with anything else.

Yes he was trying to draw his gun when he got shot..but why would he do that if all he cared about was himself? The others said all they wanted was the boy (Walt). Sawyer could have said "sure...take him"...They weren't interested in messing with Sawyer, they just wanted Walt. But instead he tried to stop them from taking Walt by attempting to shoot them. In the process he got shot...and later nearly died from an infection. I can't see what possible good that did him.

And saving Michael's life...there was no reason to do that except that Sawyer doesn't want people to die. He pulled Michael up and gave him mouth to mouth. He saved him and there's no way you can spin that to be selfish ;).

Not only that...but even after Michael was really rude to him afterwards he still told Ana Lucia that "he wasn't going anywhere until he knew his friends were alright" after she kept him in the hold in the ground. Why? Because in a crisis...Sawyer shows that he actually IS a good person.

He'll react on instinct to stop people from getting hurt. He broke up Michael and Jin...he stopped Jack from attacking Locke at Boone's funeral...and yelled for water when he collapsed.

What about telling Jack about his father to give him peace of mind...what did that get him? He thought he'd never see Jack again...so no possible benefit. He just didn't want to leave without telling him the truth.

There's just too much evidence that Sawyer IS a good person...capable of someday becoming comfortable enough to show it. :)

Zoriah actually had a thread about that in the Sawyer section which I can't find right now - Zoriah?

He hasn't stolen from others, but the general concensus amongst "civilized" people is that if you come across something that may belong to someone else, it's generally frowned upon if you keep it for yourself (ie. Boone's Watership Down book, Claire's diary).

But Sawyer doesn't come from a "civilized" upbringing. To a man who spent his life conning" people to give up there things, rationalizing that they deserved to lose it if they were dumb enough to fall for his con, then keeping things he was fortunate enough to find and salvage probably makes perfect sense to him.

Funny thing is, for a man who chose "conning", he sure does seem to regret it often. He regretted conning Jess since she had a kid, and Cassidy, since she cared for her, and he even seems to regret becoming the thing he hated the most - Sawyer. But somehow he still finds himself on that path. Is it just a comfort zone kinda thing, or is a 'con man' really what he IS, not what he DOES?

That's an oversimplification, don't you think? Much too simple for LOST . . .



Maybe it IS oversimplification. I could very well be wrong in the end. But then again, things COULD also be over analyzed and it will be something simple that isn't taken at face value.

Read "What is a Man?", by Mark Twain . . . it's all about the philosophical idea that NO act is completely selfless.

Understood, but it's an IDEA based in belief not fact. No more so than any other philosophical/political/ etc... idea.


Please do not think I'm hating on Sawyer at all. Simply not the case! I agree that with there's more than meets the eye with the characters, but how much more? Guess we'll find out in due time.

Maybe it IS oversimplification. I could very well be wrong in the end. But then again, things COULD also be over analyzed and it will be something simple that isn't taken at face value.

Very true.


Understood, but it's an IDEA based in belief not fact. No more so than any other philosophical/political/ etc... idea.

I agree, it's an idea like any other, not a fact, just an opinion - just a possible way to interpret things. I was sharing it, just as you shared yours. ;)

I agree, it's an idea like any other, not a fact, just an opinion - just a possible way to interpret things. I was sharing it, just as you shared yours. ;)


Absolutely. Was just making a counterpoint is all.

Jack have done his best to take care of the people in their group and has done numerous things without regard to his own safety in order to help them out (gone after the transciever, fought with Ethan regarding Claire, tried to save Johanna, emptied his blood to treat a dying Boone, kept Locke from being pulled in the hole by the "monster", carried dynamite to blow open the hatch, tried to get Michael back, etc.) Sawyer, on the other hand, has spent the majority of his time on the island not trying to help others, but seeing to his own needs. That isn't a leader. I'll admit that he is a teriffic con man and that he picks up on the weaknesses of others, but he uses this "talent" for evil, not for the betterment of the group. I never said Jacks intentions werent in the right place. Its his emotions that he cant control. He thinks with his heart, not his mind. Sawyer is a con man, he isnt an idiot. He knows that keeping the guns away from Jack is what will keep people from blasting each other.So was Stalin. Look how that turned out for 20 million people, give or take a few hundreds of thousands of starving Ukrainians.Your point? Winston Churchill was a good politician. So was Hitler. Look how that turned out, millions dead because they were Jewish, gay, gypsies, or cripples.

No matter how you look at law and order, its a necessary part of any society. Look at America, one of the most politically stable countries. Who has the tanks? The people? No. People would kill their neighbors with that kind of power. Who has he guns on the island? The people? Not anymore. People would kill each other, as Jack was about to let them do, with that kind of power.

Absolutely. Was just making a counterpoint is all.*shakes hands with Cacciato* That was fun. :)

Can I have a gun please to defend myself, Boss? He is strong enough not to feel the need to follow Jack or Locke, and even after all this time Jack couldn't just ask for medicines He has to just dig into his things? Heck, evil or good or gray, I say good for Sawyer.
Jack gave Sawyer a gun in Ex. And he told Kate not to bother to get it back in Outlaws.

It was wrong of Jack to go through Sawyer's stuff. On the same token there's still confusion as to how Sawyer got the meds initially. Jack/Hurley collected all of them from the Fuselage. So unless Sawyer took them in TR, which begs the ? why he needed pain killers then, they had to be taken from either the infirmary, or Jack's backpack.
I do think Sawyer put himself out there for the good of the people. I think he is accepting the hate from everybody, but he is doing it to save their butts. Jack and Locke are not stable enough to be in charge of the guns. Sawyer on the other hand, is the most cool and collected person on the island. Not only that, but he also knows how to keep people in check, something that the island desperatley needs. People need order to function correctly, with Jack or Locke in charge there would be no order. Jack was going to give the guns to anybody and then have them walk around the jungle shooting at anything that moves, thats not a very responsible way to go about things. Sawyer is strict, he is the law on the island, if he didnt take away the guns, people would have been dead by the end with half an hour left in the show.
I don't recall Jack saying he was going to hand them out to everyone. Matter of fact it was he in HC who stated he wasn't going to put guns in untrained hands, thus he kept the case locked in being responsible for their distribution. He wants to "train" an army which supports his earlier statement... He wanted just 2 guns to go out looking for a presumed Other who could be waiting to stike again.

It was Jack who restored civil order to the camp. When he was gone in WR, ppl were going to crucify each other. They've had a successful & relatively thriving island community for the last 50 days & imo Jack contributed a great deal to that. There were many references throughout TO48DAYS implying the Fusies had benefitted from his leadership...When he is personally involved then he's rash & will put himself at risk, when it comes to the group as a whole, he hasn't been inconsiderate of everyone imo.
When it comes to the guns, however, I actually think that his control of them will not turn out to be a bad thing. I know he did it for selfish reasons, but I still think they're better off out of Jack and Locke's hands.
Ppl keep saying how dangerous the guns were in Jack/Locke's hands, but aside from Shannon stealing the key when Jack was drugged, what incidents have there been proving their incompetence after all this time they have both been monitoring them? They came to a compromise in the beginning of the ep. When the issue of Sun arose they conferred in a group.

I don't think any favors are being done here. Imo, the Others have been waiting for the Fusies to be rendered vulnerable. I think Jack called it rt, the Fusies outnumbered them in adults hence why they didn't attack. Now the Others can find the guns in the jungle & overtake them.

I think Sawyer's actions have the effect of the greater good, but his intentions were not to save everyone.

While he knows that if Jack got the guns out that people were going to start getting shot, he also knows that it was pretty likely that he'd be one of those people. He also knows that if Locke has control over all of the guns that no one would ever get them until Ol' Crazy had asked permission from the island to hand them out, and that's also a pretty short path to Sawyer getting killed by someone or something.

So yes, somehow everyone is safer with Sawyer in control of the guns, but that's just a side benefit of Sawyer's real goal of protecting himself.