I have a theory behind Sawyer's motives to steal the guns. I think Sawyer knows they are being observed, and steals the guns to make it appear there is a division amongst the losties. I think he roped Charlie in to the con on the pretense that helping him out would protect Aaron in the long run.

I think making it look like the camp is divided might help Sawyer and Charlie somehow infiltrate the others more effectivly. Making the other losties HATE him and Charlie might be part of the plan.

The added bonus to this plan might be that both Saint Jack and Locke are humilitated in the process. Something that might appeal to Charlie and Sawyer.

Just my thoughts.

~F

ohh I like this theory.

Great idea! Would be nice if this is the way it would happen but I am not holding my breath =(

I agree, it would be neat if this were the case, but not counting on it. It's okay though, I don't like my Sawyer all goody-goody, if I did, I would like Jack best :) I like the darker side, with an occasional nice gesture...

Sorry but I think his actions were driven by his personal flaws not by altruism or a hidden agenda to help the rest of the group. With a motive of helping others, he would have included Kate as a participant not as a victim. Kate was right to ask him why he felt a need for others to hate him. Jack damaged Sawyer's personal image of himself when he took the medicine that Sawyer regarded as his. Kate had also brought home to him that he was developing the personal relationships he had always avoided or terminated in the past.

Sawyer's self image was under attack so he reacted to prove to himself and to others who and what he was. I am not saying his personal image is right just that he seeks to maintain it since it defines him as a person. I don't think Sawyer could help himself. He had to set up a con as a matter of self preservation based on his internal image of himself.

Guess I better quit before I start running in circles with my arguments and hit myself from behind.:confused:

Sawyer is not a joiner of any kind and I can't see him particpating in anything that he didn't think of himself. Also, how do you explain his flashbacks then?

I really think Sawyer's motives were just a big 'chuck you' to Jack for taking his meds. He wasn't going to beat up Jack because it would only be gratification for a few moments, and not much at that since Sawyer knows he can do it and the rest probably assume so also. But, with stealing the guns, he totally 'won' because he bested Jack in a way that it wouldn't be expected he could do.

wow some of you people have gone off the deep end.

Been lurking for a while, but hated "The Long Con" and had to vent my anger. So here goes first post.

Some of you really do "see the good".

Sawyer is a thief by profession and Charlie is just a snivelling, whiny, pathetic excuse of a man.

They both did it for revenge, putting their own petty squabbles above and beyond the safety of the entire group. Criminals and Addicts are selfish people, there is no other motive.

Hope they both get strung up by their B*lls. Or tortured by Sayid.

Good point that i haven't even considered. Maybe somewhere down the line, Sawyer will figure out a way to "con" the Others to benefit the lostaways?!

Been lurking for a while, but hated "The Long Con" and had to vent my anger. So here goes first post.

Some of you really do "see the good".

Sawyer is a thief by profession and Charlie is just a snivelling, whiny, pathetic excuse of a man.

They both did it for revenge, putting their own petty squabbles above and beyond the safety of the entire group. Criminals and Addicts are selfish people, there is no other motive.

Hope they both get strung up by their B*lls. Or tortured by Sayid.

Finally someone posts something that makes sense! You are right, they are both scum and they acted that way for their own selfish psychopathic reasons.

For all you ladies who like Sawyer or Charlie more now that they have gone to the dark side, if you like your men like that in real life then I will have absolutely no sympathy for you when your boyfriend cons you out of all your money or steals your baby. Sawyer might be handsome, but he is scum, pure and simple.

:Good point that i haven't even considered. Maybe somewhere down the line, Sawyer will figure out a way to "con" the Others to benefit the lostaways?! :

I think he will. Afterall, he told the sea-billy that 'it is not over.' I sort of think getting revenge on the sea-billy is something Sawyer intends.

Plus, I do really think he loves Kate. I think there was genuine fear and anger in Sawyer's eyes when the sea-billy was threatening Kate.

~Fuyuko

wow some of you people have gone off the deep end.

wait . . . be specific . . . you can't mean me . . . the voices say I'm fine

I am amazed that anyone was shocked by Sawyer's con. He has told us exactly what he was all along.

I've never been a fan of Sawyer or Charlie!

No fan of Sawyer? I can see that point of view. He's without moral fortitude or conscience . . . but I keep getting sucked into those dimples!

I wish there was a selfless motive with Sawyer's theft of the guns, but I am afraid not. With this episode he went from a favorite character to one I now dislike. The producers have made him too loathesome to root for. A mistake in my opinion, but it is done.

wow some of you people have gone off the deep end.

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Been lurking for a while, but hated "The Long Con" and had to vent my anger. So here goes first post.

Some of you really do "see the good".

Sawyer is a thief by profession and Charlie is just a snivelling, whiny, pathetic excuse of a man.

They both did it for revenge, putting their own petty squabbles above and beyond the safety of the entire group. Criminals and Addicts are selfish people, there is no other motive.

Hope they both get strung up by their B*lls. Or tortured by Sayid.Wholeheartedly agree.

Not someone who posts often, but I have a thought.
Here goes:
Sawyer has been tortured, tried to integrate himself (in his own way) with the leadership of the island, been shot and been casted out because he isn't always willing to blindly accept Jack and Locke's leadership. He has tried to help at times, but he doesn't blindly drink the kool-aid, if you will. Jack has tried to control him since Day One, and has never given him any slack.
Jack has continually depowered him throughout the course of the show, even when Sawyer has tried to be a part of the "team." Locke uses his real name these days, and pushes the envelope with Sawyer on that, but he also dismisses him as part of the leadership.
Sawyer has an ego. I think for him enough was enough.
This "Long Con" on the island at least was to prove a point, in my opinion. Kate is probably right when she said Sawyer wants to be hated. But it's almost like what children do, bad attention is better than no attention at all.
Sawyer has said a few things, and also his actions have implied things that he is not totally a bad person.
When Zeke had Kate, his body language screamed how unhappy he was that they had threatened her. Zeke has also shot Sawyer and left him for dead in the water without remorse or explanation. Sawyer told Zeke they weren't done and that seemed geniune to me as a viewer. Jack was too angry at Kate for not doing what he told her to do that he showed no compassion and by saying to Sawyer earlier "You love her," Jack did react to the kiss between him and Kate, although it was subtle.Sawyer knows they are rivals and is pretty upfront about it, Jack doesn't, although it is clear they are.
John Locke has some spiritual, metaphysical agenda. Jack is controlling, and although he claims he doesn't want to be a leader, he never truly lets it go while he is acting like it's a burden.
So, in my rambling, I guess what I'm trying to say is that Sawyer let everyone know he is a player on this island too, and not to underestimate him. He showed them, through dishonorable means, that he is a part of the power structure. Also, he may not be as emotional with his decisions about the guns, so who knows. On Lost, everything seems so definate just to change in the next episode.
As an ending note, I'm not blind to Sawyer's bad behavior, but keeping in mind that everyone has personal reasons for doing what they do, I think there is a long-term strategy in his actions.
Overthinked this thing, didn't I?

Finally someone posts something that makes sense! You are right, they are both scum and they acted that way for their own selfish psychopathic reasons.

For all you ladies who like Sawyer or Charlie more now that they have gone to the dark side, if you like your men like that in real life then I will have absolutely no sympathy for you when your boyfriend cons you out of all your money or steals your baby. Sawyer might be handsome, but he is scum, pure and simple.

Ok I understand that some women tend to go for the "bad boys" like Sawyer and Charlie, but I don't think it's our fault. It's in our nature, to help a troubled soul the whole mother thing ya know? I've been married to a reformed badboy for 10 years, (and knock on wood) no baby stealing or conning. Besides we haven't seen Charlie do any of the heroin yet have we? So wouldn't that make him a drug addict in recovery? Right now what is fueling his kookiness is losing Claire and the baby, not drugs. I don't agree with Sawyer being total scum yet, we've seen a lighter side of him in previous episodes that says that this whole scumbag thing could be the " long con".
<hr>

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Thanks for that mod, I agree
The last place I want to be criticized about being obsessed is in a LOST forum.

I totally agree and believe Sawyers move was to show who has the power...Jack walked in and took his pills...Sawyer doesnt care about the guns he cares that Jack took something he wanted...so he took something Jack wanted and now having all the "power" just made the whole con "sweeter" to him !! He wants people to hate him and everyone was just starting to like him...

I did think he was getting too nice and sweet there for a while (i mean we need a bad boy on the island to stir it up a bit ?) I'm not one of those women who is attracted to bad-boys but it makes for interesting story lines is what I mean !... maybe he will jump back and forth for a while...being tormented by good & bad !!

Trace you are right! I do think there is a long-term goal in mind to Sawyer's big con. I think taking the guns and that humilating jack and locke/showing that he is stll 'in the game.'

Great post! And I do not think it was over-thought :smile:

~Fuyuko

Some people seemed to have missed the point of the backstory in reinforcing this theme. Yes, we learned last year that Sawyer is capable of the despicable behavior of conning women. But this time around, he LOVED Cassidy. This time, we learned that Sawyer is incapable of anything else.

Thanks so much for the encouragement, DangerDork.
One thing though that keeps flashing through my mind and this is just food for thought. We all know Sawyer is the king of the con, but remember when he played "I Never" with Kate and said he never loved anyone.
Once again the Lost writers have us guessing, which is why I probably love this show so much. He is capable of lying to Kate (and conning her which he did in The Long Con, and this may have been a lie too.
I wonder what the truth is.:undecide:

I agree with Kate, Sawyer did it because he wants to be hated. I don't think he truly isn't a good man, like he said at the end, I think he's motiviated because he wants to be hated, not because he wants the money/guns/etc.

Some people seemed to have missed the point of the backstory in reinforcing this theme. Yes, we learned last year that Sawyer is capable of the despicable behavior of conning women. But this time around, he LOVED Cassidy. This time, we learned that Sawyer is incapable of anything else.


I thought that Sawyer said he had never been in love during the I never game?? I may be wrong - I havent seen it for ages. Not that Im disagreeing with you - I think Sawyer genuinely felt bad for conning Cassidy - but not sure it was love.

And I still like Sawyer - yes he is a conman, yes he can be selfish and irritating but he does have a caring side - he was concerned for Jin when they lost him from the raft, he handed over the alcohol when Boone was dying with no quibble etc etc. He may be playing a game for himself but I dont think is is a callous as some think he is. I believe his motives behind his gun scam was to remove the power from Locke & Jack - for both personal and strategic reasons. Both Jack and Locke seem to be losing it a bit of late and getting a bit gungho so maybe Sawyer wanted to remove the guns from them incase they decided on an allout shootout. Probably a wise move in the long run. And doesnt Sawyer still have the marshalls badge - what better to be the new sherrif :biggrin:

There are two conflicting issues I see with Sawyer: desire for respect, and self-hatred.

I believe his anger at his "rivals" is at least partly about their lack of respect for him:

Jack treats him as something less than human. He never even shows the common courtesy he would show to anyone else before invading his private space. No, Jack couldn't reasonably expect Sawyer to willingly give up the pills, but that doesn't give him any right to barge in and start searching through Sawyer's things. He wouldn't think of doing that to anyone else. Sawyer is mule-ish toward Jack, because of the way Jack has treated him from the beginning, not to mention never owning up to his part in the torture. Sawyer is going to balk and be obstinate and contrary just for the sake of being so until Jack gets a clue that Sawyer is not dirt for him to walk on. Taking the guns was just a bolder statement than he's made previously. (I'm writing this as Sawyer's motivation -- not whether Jack is justified in his actions. That's a whole separate argument.)

Sayid, though he apologized, sort of, for the torture, pretty much dismisses him (taking real pleasure over the boar destroying Sawyer's tent). And while Sawyer was actually the bigger person by not taking revenge, he wants to make certain Sayid knows he hasn't forgotten the torture, and that such methods won't work again.

Locke insists on calling him James, though Sawyer obviously doesn't want to use that name. So far no one else has caught on, but even Kate doesn't press him about his name. A small thing, perhaps, but still disrespectful. I don't think he has that much against Locke ... it was more that Locke had the guns, so he was the target.

Kate, even, belittles him all the time with her joking and teasing. She has obvious feelings for him, which he can see, and maybe she is trying to keep distance by playing games or teasing, but he wants her to know she shouldn't take him for granted. Therefore, she was conned as well.

Sawyer has done a lot of bad things, clearly. He is selfishly motivated, yes. Yet to say he is all bad ... nope. He backed out of the con where the little boy was involved. He is wracked with guilt over killing the man he thought was the real Sawyer. He tried to put the marshal out of his misery, and only added more guilt and self-hatred when he failed in the attempt. He told Jack about meeting Jack's father.

Sawyer's self-hatred is so deep, he was uncomfortable when everyone was starting to accept him and welcome him back. The excuse of them dividing up his stash was pretty lame, and he clearly didn't really care about the items he lost. He's being pulled in two directions: he wants respect, but can't accept it in a positive way. Plus, he wasn't going to get the even angry respect of the three main "rivals" without some bold statement, like seizing the guns. Taking them served the purpose of showing he was a force to be reckoned with, and of alienating himself again (and of pissing off Jack, as a bonus).

Yet still, he doesn't want to be completely hated: "Good thing you don't hate me, Freckles." I think that was a very honest statement. He doesn't want her to assume too much about him, but doesn't want her really to go away. (Notice, she didn't contradict, either.)

Sawyer may have some long term plans with taking the guns -- I wouldn't be surprised, as he's quite smart and carries grudges. No question, he made everyone sit up and take notice.

I think Sawyer is always thinking long-term. That is the only way these crazy illogical "long cons" could possibly work.

That being said, he said in this episode that he would get even with the Doc. He did. He made him look stupid.

He also said, "this isn't over" or something like that to the Hillbilly others guy. I am sure that Sawyer remembers that and is plotting something for that guy. I don't know if the gun situation has anything to do with that, but I have a feeling it does. I am sure he will get even with that guy or else he will die. Sawyer holds a grudge and the evil/good pendulum swing that every character is constantly in on this show dictates that after an episode that makes Sawyer seem so evil, there must follow an episode that at least his heart was somehow in the right place.

Subtract our guesses at their motivations and look at Sawyer vs. Locke in action. While they appear to (probably) have different motivations, aren’t a lot of their actions and the rules they play by similar? Neither accepts Jack as their leader, both took the guns and hid them without the consent of the rest of the group, both have set in motion chains of events that resulted in injury to another Lostaway, both have beaten another Lostaway, both assume a superior air in dealing with the other members of the group, both keep a personal distance from others with their statements (Sawyer’s rude jests & nicknames, Locke’s riddle like questions) Both of them hide things from the rest of the group, both were acting to subvert Jack’s rule when they took the guns. (Not that I Care for Jack’s leadership but he is the defacto leader of the pack. This also does not mean I approve of Sawyer‘s con job.)

I think Sawyer is always thinking long-term. That is the only way these crazy illogical "long cons" could possibly work.I don't see Sawyer's actions as always reflecting a long term view. I think long term this con will have an adverse effect on his life on the island. Also I don't feel the term lon-con refers to the length of time the con takes as much as it refers to the style of the con. An indirect approach of getting someone else to feel it is their idea to do something, in other words “taking the long way around” to accomplish a goal/con. What is it about a long-con that you find crazy or illogical?

"Long con's" are crazy and illogical because they almost always impossible. They completely and totally rely on the "con" man or men being able to completely predict the way the "marks" are going to behave in every instance. Now if this only involves one or maybe two important points where decisions need to be made, maybe then I can see the conman predicting the way the "mark" will go, but too often they involve multiple situations like this and multiple betrayals and multiple predictions of the response to these betrayals. It just is too much. Too me, they are fun to watch but never believable. If you have ever tried to do something simple like throw a suprise party you know that just doing that, the "mark" often seems to be fighting you every step of the way and they don't even know it.

Dangerdork, I am not so sure that Locke does care all that much about helping other people other than for personal self esteem reasons, he is keen on gaining respect/adulation, and feeling good about himself (in a way that he wasn't able to get pre-island). His sense of self is very much wrapped up in his need to appear independent, self sufficient and wise - and to be that of a provider and shaman (to have others look up to and rely on him). His personal destiny is more important than the individual or collective wellbeing of the group.

That is just my opinion though.

I love to watch Lost -- and I particularly love the character of Sawyer. So do a lot of my friends. It's our guilty pleasure! We're all successful, intelligent people, with wonderful lives and beautiful families. We treat Lost as a TV show, put on purely for our entertainment. These message boards are a way for us to have intelligent discussions with others who enjoy the program.

And we see Sawyer for what he is -- a guy who's pretty rough around the edges, a guy who's made some bad mistakes, but a guy who has SOME goodness in him, a person who takes charge when he needs to. I believe Sawyer's motivation for the long con was to 1) take possession of the guns since they're the most valuable commodity on the island 2) take the power away from Jack.

I've long felt that Jack was a poor leader. The Losties looked to him for leadership right after the crash, but I believe it was because he's a doctor and he fixes things and they were thinking short-term. Now they need to be protected and have their possessions protected. And they need to be able to defend themselves and their loved-ones. I don't think any one person on that island is fit to govern alone -- it needs to be a group. There has to be checks and balances.

Everyone has to be accountable for their actions. Even Jack, Sayid, Sun -- and all the rest who've done despicable things while on the island. Sawyer isn't the only person who's done some unsavory things. From what I've seen, he's standing in a long line...

To me, they are fun to watch but never believable. If you have ever tried to do something simple like throw a suprise party you know that just doing that, the "mark" often seems to be fighting you every step of the way and they don't even know it. Well based on my party planning ability, it makes sense for the victim other person to resist. However I see your point that the excessive complications and reliance on multiple predictions makes this style of con more logical in fiction than in real life. Of course here Sawyer was dealing with a small group and a few people he knew from recent close observation so it could have worked as portrayed,

There are two conflicting issues I see with Sawyer: desire for respect, and self-hatred.

I believe his anger at his "rivals" is at least partly about their lack of respect for him:

Jack treats him as something less than human. He never even shows the common courtesy he would show to anyone else before invading his private space. No, Jack couldn't reasonably expect Sawyer to willingly give up the pills, but that doesn't give him any right to barge in and start searching through Sawyer's things. He wouldn't think of doing that to anyone else. Sawyer is mule-ish toward Jack, because of the way Jack has treated him from the beginning, not to mention never owning up to his part in the torture. Sawyer is going to balk and be obstinate and contrary just for the sake of being so until Jack gets a clue that Sawyer is not dirt for him to walk on. Taking the guns was just a bolder statement than he's made previously. (I'm writing this as Sawyer's motivation -- not whether Jack is justified in his actions. That's a whole separate argument.)

Sayid, though he apologized, sort of, for the torture, pretty much dismisses him (taking real pleasure over the boar destroying Sawyer's tent). And while Sawyer was actually the bigger person by not taking revenge, he wants to make certain Sayid knows he hasn't forgotten the torture, and that such methods won't work again.

Locke insists on calling him James, though Sawyer obviously doesn't want to use that name. So far no one else has caught on, but even Kate doesn't press him about his name. A small thing, perhaps, but still disrespectful. I don't think he has that much against Locke ... it was more that Locke had the guns, so he was the target.

Kate, even, belittles him all the time with her joking and teasing. She has obvious feelings for him, which he can see, and maybe she is trying to keep distance by playing games or teasing, but he wants her to know she shouldn't take him for granted. Therefore, she was conned as well.

Sawyer has done a lot of bad things, clearly. He is selfishly motivated, yes. Yet to say he is all bad ... nope. He backed out of the con where the little boy was involved. He is wracked with guilt over killing the man he thought was the real Sawyer. He tried to put the marshal out of his misery, and only added more guilt and self-hatred when he failed in the attempt. He told Jack about meeting Jack's father.

Sawyer's self-hatred is so deep, he was uncomfortable when everyone was starting to accept him and welcome him back. The excuse of them dividing up his stash was pretty lame, and he clearly didn't really care about the items he lost. He's being pulled in two directions: he wants respect, but can't accept it in a positive way. Plus, he wasn't going to get the even angry respect of the three main "rivals" without some bold statement, like seizing the guns. Taking them served the purpose of showing he was a force to be reckoned with, and of alienating himself again (and of pissing off Jack, as a bonus).

Yet still, he doesn't want to be completely hated: "Good thing you don't hate me, Freckles." I think that was a very honest statement. He doesn't want her to assume too much about him, but doesn't want her really to go away. (Notice, she didn't contradict, either.)

Sawyer may have some long term plans with taking the guns -- I wouldn't be surprised, as he's quite smart and carries grudges. No question, he made everyone sit up and take notice.

Okay, so you'll be the second person I've asked this today but...marry me?

What a great post, and you touched on everything I've been thinking about this episode. :clap:

I will, however, add this post I left on another thread...and you guys let me know if I'm off base here...

Maybe someone else noticed too...


During 'THP' when 'Zeke' was making his speech about how long the 'Losties' have been on the island, what they've done since they've been there, opening doors they shouldn't, basically coming into a person's house for the first time putting their feet up on the coffee table, there was a very brief shot of Sawyer that I thought spoke volumes about something that easily gets overlooked, or did get overlooked until this episode--Sawyer's intelligence.

The writers have done an excellent job on sort of disguising his certain brand of intelligence by the smug, antagonistic, witty, sarcastic one-liners he constantly drops. That's not to say the audience has been left to presume he's dumb, but in a way, we're like the islanders, we didn't take him quite as seriously as say Jack, Locke or even Sayid because of the way he's portrayed.

As a con man, Sawyer takes in everything especially peoples behaviors. Things the say, but mostly what they don't. By quietly observing, he's able to gauge what motivates people to do what they do, and why. In a way, he's a lot like Locke, who I believe is a social deviant in his own right, does the very same thing. The expression on his face during that scene said to me he was taking in every detail, calculating that exchange for future reference.

Making a powerplay for the guns wasn't just about having a commodity that everyone wants, it's a way to insert himself into the decision making process because up until now, he's been left out of it. And who can blame him really? If I'd been shot, twice, nearly died from infection, you better believe I'm going to have a say so in what goes on with the island politics.

People have mentioned that, the guns are no more safe with Sawyer than they were with Locke and Jack in charge of them...and you're right, but it's not like Sawyer doesn't know that. His comment to Charlie about having bigger things to worry about was an indication of that. The guns are out of play for the time being, but that's only going to last for a while. Part of this con was to convey the fact that if Sawyer can whip up a plan with an unsuspecting individual (who would have presumed Charlie would take part in something like this, huh?) then what do they think that these "Others", people far more adaptive, far more organized and trusting of one another than they are could do?

'Zeke' and his merry band of rag-tag friends told Jack, Sawyer and Locke the truth, you're here because we let you stay here. If they wanted to take the Losties out right now, they could, because they have no clue as to what they're up against...Sawyer realizes this. Now, that's not to say he's not wanting revenge for getting shot, or getting Mike and Walt back, a great deal of his motivation is selfish, but he also realizes that if the Losties stand a chance, it's not going to be by running off into the jungle willy nilly with a bunch of guns...these people are too smart. They're going to need a more clever, quite possibly sinister plan. I think Sawyer has proven that he can help in that capacity.

Darbi, I think you are on to something. I have been saying that Sawyer has stated that he is not finished with Zeke. I think he has some plan to deal with the others and Zeke and this, while it also accomplishes his goal of revenge on Jack, is setting him up for some other idea that he has. While now it seems that Sawyer has all the power and everyone will hate him, I do not think that will last long. I think Sawyer sees the need for help, if not friends in accomplishing whatever he is going to try to do. Also, because of the history of the show I think it will again place Sawyer in a little better light. I think the comment about "Freckles" is telling becuase it is a "good thing she doesn't hate him," since I think he will use her to help win over support for his plan, whatever that is.

Sawyer is about as ONE WAY as you can get. He only cares about him self. Right when Sawyer starts to to show a nice side he goes and does something bad. Sawyer said it himself, "I am a bad man"...... As for Charley the dope addiction has made him the darkess charactor of all.

Good point that i haven't even considered. Maybe somewhere down the line, Sawyer will figure out a way to "con" the Others to benefit the lostaways?!

I agree with you. I think Sawyer is probably the only one with enough street smarts to really lead the inevitable confrontation with the others. I am not saying that is why he pulled TLC but it does set him up to maybe do something for the good of the survivors.

I think he roped Charlie in to the con on the pretense that helping him out would protect Aaron in the long run.

I think making it look like the camp is divided might help Sawyer and Charlie somehow infiltrate the others more effectivly. Making the other losties HATE him and Charlie might be part of the plan.
While I agree that at this point, Sawyer was thinking no farther than just getting the guns, I can definitely see this as a potential set-up for another long con--particularly against the Others. Sawyer is anything but stupid.

yeh i think Sawyers just takin' tha power back, plain and simple. he's a man who likes to be in control, and he hasnt been so far, just humiliated. he works on his own too, i doubt he can trust people enough, so he's probably just using Charlie.

he's a wounded character, physically and mentally (stabbed and shot). i dont think he's pure scum though. and yeh he might be plotting some other revenge on Zeke

Okay, so you'll be the second person I've asked this today but...marry me?

Thanks for the proposal ... but, bigamy is illegal! :)

During 'THP' when 'Zeke' was making his speech about how long the 'Losties' have been on the island, what they've done since they've been there, opening doors they shouldn't, basically coming into a person's house for the first time putting their feet up on the coffee table, there was a very brief shot of Sawyer that I thought spoke volumes about something that easily gets overlooked, or did get overlooked until this episode--Sawyer's intelligence.

The writers have done an excellent job on sort of disguising his certain brand of intelligence by the smug, antagonistic, witty, sarcastic one-liners he constantly drops. That's not to say the audience has been left to presume he's dumb, but in a way, we're like the islanders, we didn't take him quite as seriously as say Jack, Locke or even Sayid because of the way he's portrayed.

As a con man, Sawyer takes in everything especially peoples behaviors. Things the say, but mostly what they don't. By quietly observing, he's able to gauge what motivates people to do what they do, and why. In a way, he's a lot like Locke, who I believe is a social deviant in his own right, does the very same thing. The expression on his face during that scene said to me he was taking in every detail, calculating that exchange for future reference.

Making a powerplay for the guns wasn't just about having a commodity that everyone wants, it's a way to insert himself into the decision making process because up until now, he's been left out of it. And who can blame him really? If I'd been shot, twice, nearly died from infection, you better believe I'm going to have a say so in what goes on with the island politics.

People have mentioned that, the guns are no more safe with Sawyer than they were with Locke and Jack in charge of them...and you're right, but it's not like Sawyer doesn't know that. His comment to Charlie about having bigger things to worry about was an indication of that. The guns are out of play for the time being, but that's only going to last for a while. Part of this con was to convey the fact that if Sawyer can whip up a plan with an unsuspecting individual (who would have presumed Charlie would take part in something like this, huh?) then what do they think that these "Others", people far more adaptive, far more organized and trusting of one another than they are could do?

'Zeke' and his merry band of rag-tag friends told Jack, Sawyer and Locke the truth, you're here because we let you stay here. If they wanted to take the Losties out right now, they could, because they have no clue as to what they're up against...Sawyer realizes this. Now, that's not to say he's not wanting revenge for getting shot, or getting Mike and Walt back, a great deal of his motivation is selfish, but he also realizes that if the Losties stand a chance, it's not going to be by running off into the jungle willy nilly with a bunch of guns...these people are too smart. They're going to need a more clever, quite possibly sinister plan. I think Sawyer has proven that he can help in that capacity.

I agree with your thoughts as well. I'd have to go back to look at the scene w/"Zeke", but I do think Sawyer is very observant and that he sees a broader and longer picture than the rest, who seem to be more about instant and emotional action (with the exception, most times, of Locke). I like your idea about him seizing the guns partly for that reason -- it's going to take more calculation and forethought to deal with the Others if they don't want to die. Unlike the apparent black-and-white theme on the show, no human is that basic. Besides, it's not like Sawyer didn't offer warning: "I'm a complex guy, sweetheart!"

I do not post very often- I am very shy and intimidated my the intelligence of forum posters!

First of all I think the Others know how well armed the Hatch was. There is suspicion of a mole after all and "Zeke," as Sawyer called him, knew an awful lot about the Losties. I think that the Others have not attacked because of the arsenal. They attacked the Tailies, who were unarmed. The Others have only shown once that they were armed- on the boat. I cannot remember how many weapons they had, but it couldn't have been more than four. Also, their bomb was homemade. Maybe this is all they really have. The Others, if they were the same Others, who were killed by Eko and AL were not armed with guns.

I think the Long Con isn't over yet. In The Hunting Party, it was Locke, Jack and Sawyer who went into the Jungle and ran into "Zeke" and the others. It could be that Jack and Sawyer are conning together. Jack wants to build an army, but knows that they are being observed .

Jack does not trust Locke. John Locke is a man dedicated to the island. He will not attack the Others because he wants to live on the island - protecting the island appears to be his goal. Jack knows that Locke will make it difficult to train an army with the guns. He wants to take the guns and hide them, but does not want to do it himself- he wants to keep the image of trusted leader.

Jack turns to Sawyer who has reasons for wanting revenge on the Others. He pretends to ransack Sawyer's tent to get the pills to give Sawyer the "motive" for taking the guns. The ransacking was so obviously done in the open- why not just wait until Sawyer is far away from his tent to take back the pills? Also, wasn't it Jack who gave Sawyer the pills in the first place? All the rest of Sawyer's "stuff" was taken while he was away and it did not seem to bother him before now. Afterall, he left everything behind when he thought he was leaving the island for good.

Sawyer enlists black sheep Charlie to help take the guns. To any mole, it looks like the Losties are a society that is falling apart and unable to protect itself. The guns are now stowed away, safe from Locke, perhaps to secretly be used to build an army. The Others are the ones being conned.

A note about Charlie- it surprises me that he seems to be so disliked now. He has always been a likable character, struggling with and overcoming his addiction. He has been a loyal protector of Claire and her baby and a good friend to all. It has never been shown that he is back on drugs- only that he had a druggie need to keep the statues around just in case. And when Sawyer offered him a statue as reward he refused it; as far as I know he now has no other drugs. He has been made an outcast by the Losties and humiliated by Locke. He just wanted Locke to be made a fool of.

interesting about possibility of Sawyer and Jack working together. if it is right, maybe Jack cut Sawyer a good deal on some drugs seeing as he wanted them so badly. they did seem to come to some sort of an understanding towards end of last season. but im still not convinced tho

I like this idea of Sawyer being in partnership with someone else.

If we use the flashback as a parallel to what is going on on the island, we have:
Flashback:
Sawyer (Con-man)
Cassidy (Mark)
Gordy (Con-man's Partner)

In this situation we have Cassidy who thinks she herself is the partner but later learns she is the Mark. It is implied that she doesn't know about Gordy because Sawyer drops his name as the dangerous man with the gun waiting outside. (I would love to see that Cassidy had a long con of her own going on...but time will tell.)

Thus on the Island I think the long con might look like this:
Sawyer (Con-man)
Charlie (Mark?)
Jack (Partner?)

As with Cassidy, Charlie thinks he is the partner, but will turn out to be the Mark.

What are the motives?
Jack
The bigger motive seems to be to not have Locke in the loop for when Jack wants to make his Army move. Jack has known since the end of season 1 that he has "A Locke problem", and knows that the stakes are a lot higher now with Zeke's crew and the aresenal. Jack can't afford Locke turning all "The Island told me to make a paste out of the melted down guns" on him so he needs to have Locke out of the equation.

The other loose cannon on the island is Charlie, at the end of Fire + Water, Jack says to Charlie, "I need to know you won't do something like this again." Charlie tells him he's not using but doesn't really answer the question about not doing it again. Jack has a motive to find out if Charlie is or will use again.

So Jack's motive is to have stability in the situation so he can lead the charge on a horse in a big white hat.

Thus, Jack goes to Sawyer with his Mark(s). Just like Gordy went to him in the flashback with Cassidy and her $600,000. Sawyer gets to do all of the hands on conning, while Jack (Gordy) gets to have his reward with a percentage of it going to Sawyer.

The question this little theory brings up then is what is Sawyer's motive? He gets to be the new sherriff in town, but was that enough of a motive to reveal his nature as a con-man right now? I think Jack must have approached Sawyer about the army plan and invited him in if he helped with getting the guns away from Locke. Sawyer would want to be in on the Zeke attack for many vengeful reasons, but also to help save the Losties.

As Michael said to him, "Either you want to be a hero or you have a death wish." Sawyer answers him, "I ain't no hero.". Indicating that he does have a death wish. He may have both motives though and going up against the "Others" may allow him to be a hero and fulfill his death wish.
The flashback does not resolve completely that Sawyer takes the money back to Gordy, but there isn't really a good reason for him to risk Cassidy's like or his own by double crossing Gordy. Thus it is not clear whether Sawyer will double cross Jack or not.
Sorry for the length...

Is it possible that many are grasping at excuses for Sawyer, because he's so popular?

kinneucher ~ really impressive! I think you've nailed Sawyer on the head. I couldn't (and would never, ever be able to) express myself as eloquently as you have done. Excellent!

Also, I find Locke's passive agressive attempts at belittling Sawyer by calling him James to be completely beneath the Locke we used to know. The Locke combination lock changing power is going to his head!

Also, I find Locke's passive agressive attempts at belittling Sawyer by calling him James to be completely beneath the Locke we used to know
Locke does have a history of using real names, does he not? I was under the impression that he is the only one to call Hurley Hugo. I admit I am not too familiar with that part of show lore.

I just wanted to thank teacher2 for sharing their thoughts! Don't be stressed about sharing your thoughts. People here are pretty friendly. :)

Some people seemed to have missed the point of the backstory in reinforcing this theme. Yes, we learned last year that Sawyer is capable of the despicable behavior of conning women. But this time around, he LOVED Cassidy. This time, we learned that Sawyer is incapable of anything else.

"A tiger can't change his stripes."

I really liked your post and agreed with much of it, but I think that, in a roundabout way, the point was that a tiger really can change his stripes. I really don't know how to elaborate this seeing as how I'm sleepy and generally tired of analyzing this epi (:p).

I believe that humankind has the ability stop f***ing up and put the world to rights, thought I know we'll never use our common sense to do such a thing... it's why Marxism (yay!) makes me hate humans for being so stubborn.

I think that, by using Sawyer's return to the darker side (assuming he'd ever left it) after his supposed switch to the sunny side, the show was wagging it's finger at folks and scolding their stubborness.


Okay, so that post was all over the place. Yes, I am a teensy bit drunk. But perhaps I made my point slightly clear?

Excellent posts there by dangerdork, trace and teacher2! I also feel that perhaps Sawyer just wanted to show everyone he was in charge, and they couldn't underestimate him. Everyone on the Island tends to dismiss Sawyer as a con artist with witty one liners and a scummy personality; he was showing Jack and Locke he could play with the best of 'em, and win!
I personally realized that Sawyer's a lot smarter and more devious than even I gave him credit for. And for me, seeing Sawyer being all 'sunshine and light' lately was p**sing me off! Such a turnaround for a character TPTB had built up negatively in season 1? I felt it was justified to have him become friendlier with the rest, but not to suddenly become noble and good! I was frankly impressed that he still retained the negative traits of his personality, and relieved because that's real life. People don't change overnight.
I also feel it was about control, rather than his stash. He was ruthless in the kidnapping attempt of Sun, and in fooling Kate who he's closest to on the Island. He wanted to teach Jack a lesson. And he did.
How long will he able to keep the guns? Not long, IMO. You've got Locke, Sayid, Jack and other people who would be keen on stealing the guns from him. All it takes is tracking and overpowering one man. He'll need to be really ingenious to keep the guns now.
If you've heard the latest podcast by the Nomad and Carlton Cuse,
They speak about Sawyer's self loathing. He can't handle being liked.
To me, that emphasizes Sawyer's inherent problem: he doesn't like himself.
About Charlie, I thought he was believable. He'd been cast out, he'd been beaten up, and he wanted revenge. He didn't hurt Sun: she fell and hit her head. There was real concern in his voice when he told Sawyer, 'Sun can never know what I did to her.' He refused the statue, and that proves once and for all that the poor s*d wasn't on H! I felt sorry for him...
As for teacher2's theory about Jack being in on it, I think that's amazing! I hope it's true...it's a very clever theory and exciting too!

Is it possible that many are grasping at excuses for Sawyer, because he's so popular?

I think that is a very big part ... there seldom seems to be this much attempt to "find alternative meanings" for the actions of other characters (Jin for most of the 1st season, Shannon for, well, pretty much all of her scenes, etc.)

I really liked your post and agreed with much of it, but I think that, in a roundabout way, the point was that a tiger really can change his stripes. I really don't know how to elaborate this seeing as how I'm sleepy and generally tired of analyzing this epi (:p).

I believe that humankind has the ability stop f***ing up and put the world to rights, thought I know we'll never use our common sense to do such a thing... it's why Marxism (yay!) makes me hate humans for being so stubborn.


I agree ... and I think that is what continues to frustrate me about much of Sawyer's actions (and his character in general) ... he doesn't make an attempt to change his stripes. It's like the Red Sox quote ... he just assumes that that is the way life will be: people will hate him, he will be "bad", so why bother to try and change it. Instead of taking responsibility for the path he follows in life, he continues to sit back on his butt and blame the past.

Sawyer's motives? He had none that extended beyond his own need for attention. It has long been my belief that much of his "hoarding" behaviour in season 1 revolved around the need for human contact --- on his own terms. Unable to socialize in an acceptable manner, he sought to have that need fulfilled anyway by making people have to come to him ... to seek him out, when they needed him. It was his way of making himself feel important.

However, that behaviour just never seemed to change ... I find myself quickly growing tired of his social "look at me!" tantrums. In fact, his involvement in a plan that traumatized perhaps the only person on the island who has never said a mean word to him, has really made me wonder just how low the character will sink. He criticizes Charlie for taking Aaron, then masterminds a plan to terrorize, bind and blindfold Sun? Hello Mr. Pot, have you met Mr. Kettle? It's all fine and good to say that "deep down" there is good in a person, but unless you act on it ... unless you develop that part of yourself, what good is "being good" if it's always buried under the muck. Somewhere, there is a quote that says (paraphrased) "Evil is when good men do nothing" ... an ounce of good when acted upon is worth infinitely more than a tonne of hidden "goodness". Let's face ... actions speak louder than words; if he continues to trade on people's sympathies for his own gain, insult people who are just trying to be nice, sit on his butt while everyone else is working their's off to make the island live-able, bark out belligerent slurs and antagonist quips, and put people's lives at risk, all the dimple flashing and southern charm in the world will not redeem him in my eyes.

i dont need to excuse Sawyer anything. so long as he still exudes charm and wit while being a complete ******* thats fine by me

Well, I already posted about Sawyer's motives in another thread, but here is my opinion. He took the guns to have protection. He saw the others, knows there are many of them, they are dangerous, they kill, kidnap and he needs to protect himself. Lock and Jack need to "negotiate", they are that kind of people who maybe see the "good" in people and hope for a "nice" solution....
Sawyer doesn't see the "good" in people, his life thought him differently, my theory on what kind of childhood he had was posted somewhere else, so he did what he felt he needed to do to protect himself. As I said he is not the guy to say to Jack, "can I have a gun please, since others are holding one to my head?"
Now, is he nice or not? Probably not too nice, since he thought about scaring Sun, and used to con people and steal their money. Is he loathsome to me? not so much. It is a TV show, and people are allowed to like the bad and the good.
It was also great how he uped one on Jack, loved that part.
Just my thoughts.

Some people seemed to have missed the point of the backstory in reinforcing this theme. Yes, we learned last year that Sawyer is capable of the despicable behavior of conning women. But this time around, he LOVED Cassidy. This time, we learned that Sawyer is incapable of anything else.

"A tiger can't change his stripes."

HMMM.....He saved her life by taking that money, so yes he took the money, committed to the con as it were, but that man would have killed her if he didn't, so you can see that as ultimate love in a way as well.

He can't be with her because he conned her, but he can still love her and know she is alive.

This is regarding the theory from teacher2:
I really like your theory and it would seem to fit in the aura of this show that NOTHING is what it seems. The writers have flung us for a loop before, why not have Jack and Sawyer working together against Locke. Because all that Jack was concerned with before was Locke not Sawyer.
I personnally hope this is the case because if Sawyer thinks he can take over their little part of the island by hording the guns, their is no turning back for him after that. He is either going to be taken down by the other Losties or taken by the "monster". Because he's not worthy of redemption anymore.

Locke does have a history of using real names, does he not? I was under the impression that he is the only one to call Hurley Hugo. I admit I am not too familiar with that part of show lore.

booty ~ you are absolutely right about Locke calling Hurley, Hugo! It's just seems, to me anyway, that Locke knows it bothers Sawyer to be called James, however, he still does it.

What I don't understand is how, up to now, the writers were trying so far to show that beneath the tough exterior, Sawyer really has a heart of gold. Are we now to believe that in order to get back at Jack, Sawyer is willing to endanger all of the survivors. Unless the writers has some grand scheme to reconcile the inconsistencies, the change in Sawyer's behavior is just too much take. The only explaination I can think of is that having a 'bad boy' Sawyer makes for more interesting television, but then why did they try so hard to make him so likeable?
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What I don't understand is how, up to now, the writers were trying so far to show that beneath the tough exterior, Sawyer really has a heart of gold. Are we now to believe that in order to get back at Jack, Sawyer is willing to endanger all of the survivors. Unless the writers has some grand scheme to reconcile the inconsistencies, the change in Sawyer's behavior is just too much take. The only explaination I can think of is that having a 'bad boy' Sawyer makes for more interesting television, but then why did they try so hard to make him so likeable?
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The thing is that he didn't just 'up one' on Jack. He conned all of the losties and knocked Sun unconcious (I know Charlie did it, but it was Sawyer's idea) just to get back at Jack? I don't buy it. And what was that thing Sawyer said to Kate when Kate asked whether Sawyer was the one who grabbed Sun? Something llike 'What kind of a person do you think I am?" To me this episode had too many inconsistencies in regards to Sawyer's character. Also, the look on Sawyer's face when Jack took his painkiller had too much contempt and was too sinister for the Sawyer that we know up to this point.

What I don't understand is how, up to now, the writers were trying so far to show that beneath the tough exterior, Sawyer really has a heart of gold. Are we now to believe that in order to get back at Jack, Sawyer is willing to endanger all of the survivors. Unless the writers has some grand scheme to reconcile the inconsistencies, the change in Sawyer's behavior is just too much take. The only explaination I can think of is that having a 'bad boy' Sawyer makes for more interesting television, but then why did they try so hard to make him so likeable?
<hr>
What I don't understand is how, up to now, the writers were trying so far to show that beneath the tough exterior, Sawyer really has a heart of gold. Are we now to believe that in order to get back at Jack, Sawyer is willing to endanger all of the survivors. Unless the writers has some grand scheme to reconcile the inconsistencies, the change in Sawyer's behavior is just too much take. The only explaination I can think of is that having a 'bad boy' Sawyer makes for more interesting television, but then why did they try so hard to make him so likeable?
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The thing is that he didn't just 'up one' on Jack. He conned all of the losties and knocked Sun unconcious (I know Charlie did it, but it was Sawyer's idea) just to get back at Jack? I don't buy it. And what was that thing Sawyer said to Kate when Kate asked whether Sawyer was the one who grabbed Sun? Something llike 'What kind of a person do you think I am?" To me this episode had too many inconsistencies in regards to Sawyer's character. Also, the look on Sawyer's face when Jack took his painkiller had too much contempt and was too sinister for the Sawyer that we know up to this point.
The title of the episode is the "The Long Con" and I don't think the con is over.

Finally someone posts something that makes sense! You are right, they are both scum and they acted that way for their own selfish psychopathic reasons.

For all you ladies who like Sawyer or Charlie more now that they have gone to the dark side, if you like your men like that in real life then I will have absolutely no sympathy for you when your boyfriend cons you out of all your money or steals your baby. Sawyer might be handsome, but he is scum, pure and simple.

This isnt real life. This is a TV-show. I want to marry a nice man. But in fictions, I enjoy and root for the bad people. Jeez, dont you think we have any grip of reality?

I think the Sawyers line about cowboys and indians pretty much sums it up, why he did what he did. But I really hope it was for selfish motives. Makes it more fun.