I hope they finally address the issue of Charlie forgetting. For some reason I think he remembers who did it to him and didn't want to tell because he was threatened.

I think his memory loss was real but due to oxygen deprivation and trauma. I really don't think he can recall anything that makes any real sense. He remembers enough to know it was Ethan and to want him dead because he came back and threatened him again and wanted Claire back. I don't think he knows who else might have been involved.

I agree. He also had no memory of how he arrived at the beach with the baby a couple of weeks ago when the plane came down (was Henry Gale on that plane, I wonder?). Was it oxygen deprivation from being hung or did Charlie have another close encounter of the monster kind last year? And Claire is so forgetful of all Charlie did . what is her excuse? Guess we'll find out next week, oh no, I mean in TWO weeks (wahhhhhhh!)

I wonder if memory loss is part of The Sickness? However tonight i got the impression it was more physical than mental. This is the first time I thought of The Sickness in physical terms.

I believe that Sayid was asking Charlie "Do you remember?" BECAUSE he wants Charlie to help him identify Gale, if he can. Or something related to that.

I believe that Sayid was asking Charlie "Do you remember?" BECAUSE he wants Charlie to help him identify Gale, if he can. Or something related to that.

I never thought of it that way. That could be interesting. I would think Claire has a better chance of recoginizing him than Charlie, though.

I thought Sayid just wanted to make sure that Charlie did not forget the intensity of what had happened to him; Sayid is an army-builder now, and I think Locke will jump in on that side too, if they can get the guns back from Sawyer; unless Sayid knows that Charlie can get them.

I never thought of it that way. That could be interesting. I would think Claire has a better chance of recoginizing him than Charlie, though.

Maybe, but I'm sure that's what Sayid's motives are.

Maybe, but I'm sure that's what Sayid's motives are.

Me neither. Until I read the post that I replyed to I just purely thought that Sayid was trying to get Charlie to feel his compassion and emotional level towards the others.

Sayid is an army-builder now, and I think Locke will jump in on that side too, if they can get the guns back from Sawyer; unless Sayid knows that Charlie can get them.

I know, when they were on the beach I thought Sayid was going to say "Where are the guns?", but instead we got "Do you remember"... Where are the guns would have been better... LOL... I wanted him to call Charlie out for taking them... let him know he hadn't totally gotten away with it.. :D

Sayid is an army-builder now, and I think Locke will jump in on that side too, if they can get the guns back from Sawyer; unless Sayid knows that Charlie can get them.

I'm not 100% sure Locke is on the pro-army side now. He might have just been doing that to show Jack just what it was that he was getting himself into.

Just maybe, Sayid was conning Charlie to motivate him into going into the
bunker (armed) to take a look see at Balloon Boy; Sayid would be
watching where Charlie went to arm up, then know where the guns
are. Or at least, motivate Charlie into seeing Balloon Boy, if he
recognizes him. If Claire and/or Charlie recognizes him then
POP goes the Balloon! Boy.

Just maybe, Sayid was conning Charlie to motivate him into going into the
bunker (armed) to take a look see at Balloon Boy; Sayid would be
watching where Charlie went to arm up, then know where the guns
are. Or at least, motivate Charlie into seeing Balloon Boy, if he
recognizes him. If Claire and/or Charlie recognizes him then
POP goes the Balloon! Boy.

The only thing I don't get is why Charlie or Claire would just see this guy and remember him? It's not like they remember another man in their kidnap escapade and they just don't remember what he looks like.

I also didn't see Sayid asking Charlie "Have you forgotten?" as a conning type of deal.

Did anyone else notice that Charlie seemed to have a brief look of alarm when Sayid mentioned the hanging? Seems almost like Charlie doesn't want people to know what really happened.

let's not forget that it's been so long since all this happened in real-time (as opposed to Lost time) that they have been resorting to devices like this, and a 2-minute or so long "previously on Lost" that incorporates things from 4+ different episodes, to get those who've seen some of that to remember.

I think Charlie remembers bits and pieces but has been pushing it down. The only time I remember him actually referring to it is when Sayid was trying to counsel him during that scene in Outlaws. "He strung me up and left me for dead' or whatever. If he faces it he will have to deal with the accompanying emotions and Charlie is an addict. They just don't face their feelings and memories on their own. They cover them up with drugs or in other ways. They need help learning how to deal with it all..so in my opinion he's just been forcing himself NOT to face it. Sayid has come out and done that very thing though, he made him think about it..and it will be interesting to see where it all goes from here.

I thought about them just taking Charlie and Claire to the hatch and having them have a look at the guy ...on the odd chance that it 'might' trigger a memory in one or both of them...but no one listens to me. :D

It's been pointed out before that Charlie has more than once referred to Ethan having partners but each time he was ignored. One time was in Numbers when they were crossing the bridge, someone said it could have been built by Danielle's team, Charlie said, "or Ethan's" but no one responded. When Charlie was talking to Rose he said "there's a person, or people, that are trying to hurt us". No response from Rose. Of course we all remember "all they wanted was Claire". In homecoming when Locke asked "what if Ethan isn't alone", the camera went to Charlie's reaction. I think he knows there were other people but doesn't remember any detail. It would be cool if he recognized Henry but I doubt that will happen.

I know, when they were on the beach I thought Sayid was going to say "Where are the guns?", but instead we got "Do you remember"... Where are the guns would have been better... LOL... I wanted him to call Charlie out for taking them... let him know he hadn't totally gotten away with it.. :D

Sayid doesn't know Charlie had anything to do with Sawyer's plan to remove the guns from the bunker. It's a secret for now between Sawyer and Charlie.
<hr>
Did anyone else notice that Charlie seemed to have a brief look of alarm when Sayid mentioned the hanging? Seems almost like Charlie doesn't want people to know what really happened.

It also appeared that he didn't quite remember the hanging or the whole ordeal for that matter. I kind of interpreted the "look" to mean, "What are you talking about?" Does anyone agree?

Sayid doesn't know Charlie had anything to do with Sawyer's plan to remove the guns from the bunker. It's a secret for now between Sawyer and Charlie.

I don't think Sayid knows either, but many people feel he's smart enough to figure out that Sawyer had to have help and who that likely accomplice had to be.

It also appeared that he didn't quite remember the hanging or the whole ordeal for that matter. I kind of interpreted the "look" to mean, "What are you talking about?" Does anyone agree?

I very definately agree. I never even thought of all these other possibilities until I read them here. While they all definately are good possibilities, my gut reaction remains that Charlie just doesn't remember. If there is any alarm he is feeling, it is over his loss of memory. I think he first looked like "What the heck is Sayid talking about?" and then there was another look that could be feeling startled or alarmed. I took it that he was remembering how he felt when he suddenly became aware he was on the beach holding Aaron with no idea how either one of them got there or why. I think he was making the connection between the 2 "what the #$%^ " incidents and wondering if he was completely going insane or if everyone else was. Not a good place for a recovering addict to be.

I thought Sayid also looked a little alarmed at what was happening to Charlie. Maybe because remembering is so important to Sayid right now ... Maybe because he was suddenly waking up to the fact that everyone seemed to be forgetting things .. like the threat of the others and that there is a monster on the loose and noone is even investigating. Maybe he is alarmed for Charlie, too, though I doubt that is his main concern.

I like the idea that Sayid is forming an army now. I'd chose his army over Jack's anyday. lol.

I know, when they were on the beach I thought Sayid was going to say "Where are the guns?", but instead we got "Do you remember"... Where are the guns would have been better... LOL... I wanted him to call Charlie out for taking them... let him know he hadn't totally gotten away with it.. :D


i thought he was going to ask "so tell me charlie....why did you attack sun"

I like the theory that people may be forgetting things, or memories are fading.

During Charlie's dream sequence he also seemed to forget he couldn't swim.

I don't think Charlie or Claire would recognize Henry even if he is an Other. What I'd like to see is if either of them would recognize the bearded "Zeke" Other.

I think it bothers Charlie to remember what happened so when Sayid mentioned it, I don't think Charlie's reaction was "oh yeah, that" but more of "don't remind me of that horror." I think Sayid was simply seeking a kindred spirit since Jack pulled him off Henry Gale and he needed time to calm down and regroup. It'll be interesting to see how things play out over the next few eps.

I think it bothers Charlie to remember what happened so when Sayid mentioned it, I don't think Charlie's reaction was "oh yeah, that" but more of "don't remind me of that horror." I think Sayid was simply seeking a kindred spirit since Jack pulled him off Henry Gale and he needed time to calm down and regroup. It'll be interesting to see how things play out over the next few eps.

I agree with this. Charlie gets the same pained expression when anyone mentions the hanging like he doesn't want to think about it. He had the same look in Homecoming after Ethan threatened him and he was talking with Jack and Locke about going after him. Locke said, "You both seem to forget how that worked out. (To Jack) He bested you physically, (To Charlie) he hung you from a tree". Charlie shoots him a look. I really think it bothers him to be reminded of it and the same thing happened with Sayid.

I think Sayid going to Charlie here was his way of saying to Charlie, now I understand what you meant when you said you had no regrets killing Ethan and you'd do it again in a minute. Back then, Sayid was saying the killing would stay with Charlie forever. Now, Sayid seems to be showing more understanding for what Charlie felt then.

I agree with this. Charlie gets the same pained expression when anyone mentions the hanging like he doesn't want to think about it.

I think Sayid going to Charlie here was his way of saying to Charlie, now I understand what you meant when you said you had no regrets killing Ethan and you'd do it again in a minute. Back then, Sayid was saying the killing would stay with Charlie forever. Now, Sayid seems to be showing more understanding for what Charlie felt then.

That's a good point. Initially, I thought Charlie grimaced because he didn't want to be reminded that he felt he had failed Claire - by not protecting her when they were kidnapped. But there seems to be an emphasis in the episode on memory - probably a foreshadowing of the next new episode, but still...

If Sayid said he didn't feel guilt for beating Henry Gale, it's probably worth speculating about why.

Perhaps Sayid feels a bond towards Charlie because he shared this "rite of passage" with Charlie. He has shared in a very important part of Charlie's life - the loss of innocense and learning of one's own capacity to do harm. Sort of like what he, himself, went thru for the CIA against his CO. Since he was there to share in that first death that Charlie caused (that we and Sayid know of, anyway), and that is a moment that will stay with Charlie forever, Sayid's presence will stay with Charlie too. Kind of like the killing version of a mentor and mentee <g>.

Also, Sayid has witnessed, and participated with, a Charlie none of the other Losties has seen. He has witnessed Charlie being very brave and trying very hard to care for Claire and Aaron. At Charlie's request, Sayid poured gunpowder on Charlie's facial wounds and light them on fire (ouch,, just thinking about it makes me shudder) so that he could continue on in the rescue of Aaron. Charlie has shown signs that he would be a very good soldier, and if Sayid is recruiting....

Also, I don't think it is that the losties are losing their memories as suggested above, but rather that the enforcement of implanted memories is weakening. Maybe I'm just picking on words here, but I think there is an important difference.

Also, Sayid has witnessed, and participated with, a Charlie none of the other Losties has seen. He has witnessed Charlie being very brave and trying very hard to care for Claire and Aaron. At Charlie's request, Sayid poured gunpowder on Charlie's facial wounds and light them on fire (ouch,, just thinking about it makes me shudder) so that he could continue on in the rescue of Aaron. Charlie has shown signs that he would be a very good soldier, and if Sayid is recruiting....

.

Good point. I had forgotten about that. Sayid knows that Charlie is capable of great heroism if needs be. People make a big deal of the fact that it was actually Sayid who 'rescued' Aaron and that's true but in keeping with that thought..Charlie didn't need to go. He could have stayed behind and held Claire's hand and let Sayid do all the work but Claire specifically asked Charlie to go. Sayid knew all that and that might be why, when they returned that he didn't care that Charlie got all the 'glory' for the rescue.

Also, Sayid has witnessed, and participated with, a Charlie none of the other Losties has seen. He has witnessed Charlie being very brave and trying very hard to care for Claire and Aaron. At Charlie's request, Sayid poured gunpowder on Charlie's facial wounds and light them on fire (ouch,, just thinking about it makes me shudder) so that he could continue on in the rescue of Aaron. Charlie has shown signs that he would be a very good soldier, and if Sayid is recruiting....

That is definitely true. I echo what elf said, and also add that although people wonder why someone would seek Charlie out for their army, I would point to this and say if I were Sayid, I would want Charlie on my team. He's someone who won't quit no matter how tough things get.

elfdream, remember way back when when we discussed Charlie's fight or flight response, and how despite his size, Charlie's first instinct is to stay and fight, even when it gets him into trouble? I see that here and I think Sayid does too. When Ethan came at him the second time, he should have run. He wasn't protecting anyone, he had no reason to stay and fight. Instead he picks up a stick and goes after him.

That is definitely true. I echo what elf said, and also add that although people wonder why someone would seek Charlie out for their army, I would point to this and say if I were Sayid, I would want Charlie on my team. He's someone who won't quit no matter how tough things get.

That maybe true about charlie, but I think that has very little to do with why Syaid chose to talk to him.

Right now Syaid and Charlie are the most angry and hurt. If Micheal was there he would be encluded in with them.

Syaid blames the others for Shannons death. He now knows Ana shooting her happend because she is terrified of them.

Charlie acted on his dream because of what the others had already done to him and Claire.

They are both now at odds with some members of the Losties.
At this time they have a lot in common.

Charlie is just as angry as Syaid and he is going to be easy to talk in to acting out some sort of revenge.
Sayaid may approch Sawyer. Sawyer is angry but he isn't hurt at the level Charlie and Syaid are.

Charlie acted on his dream because of what the others had already done to him and Claire.

I didn't think of it that way but it's a good point. We all talked about why Charlie would do what he did, why was he so freaked that no one believed him? The episode had you thinking that it was just his dysfunctional need to protect his "family". But I think we failed to take into account the fact that Claire and Aaron have both been in danger in the recent past and Charlie believes any hint of danger is real for that reason. Also shows that even though Ethan is dead, he's still afraid of the Others (or what Danielle may pull again).

Charlie has shown signs that he would be a very good soldier, and if Sayid is recruiting...

So, is Sayid recruiting for an army separate from Jack and AL's? I am confused
:rolleyes:

We're not really sure yet.

i think that sayid knows charlie did something or knows something more than he is saying - sayid's expression was matter of fact - to me he was asking a rhetorical question

At this point I think Jack wants an Army for protection. Syaid wants one for revenge.

I also think that Charlie's loud denial to everyone from the plane, "There are no others!" that took place after the kidnapping and hanging is somehow significant to this conversation. We never figured out why he would so vehemently believe that when he had such a significant encounter with at least one other.

I also think that Charlie's loud denial to everyone from the plane, "There are no others!" that took place after the kidnapping and hanging is somehow significant to this conversation. We never figured out why he would so vehemently believe that when he had such a significant encounter with at least one other.

I think that was a scene that gets misconstrued alot. I think he was just talking about the fact that there were no others coming to get them at that moment, because they found the black smoke and there was no one there, and the whole thing seemed like a ruse of Danielle's. I think he just meant that they didn't see anyone out there.

The only thing I don't get is why Charlie or Claire would just see this guy and remember him? It's not like they remember another man in their kidnap escapade and they just don't remember what he looks like.

I also didn't see Sayid asking Charlie "Have you forgotten?" as a conning type of deal.

I agree that its not a con but someone else did participate in the abduction. Remember Charlie said "All they wanted was Claire."

I believe that Sayid was asking Charlie "Do you remember?" BECAUSE he wants Charlie to help him identify Gale, if he can. Or something related to that.

only thing is that charlie was only with Ethan for a little while as he had to be hung from a tree so Ethan could get away with Clair a little more easier. That does not mean that more of the Others come along and help Ethan but just stay out of sight. Ethan was a bit of a hard nut and that may be why the others sent him and we only saw him as they did not want to alert the losties to the fact that are sh!t loads of em out there
Another point is whilst Jack was having a ruck with Ethan, why did clair & Charlie not do one and run of. why when Ethan was hanging charlie did Claire not run of then, (i know she is pregnant and cant run that fast but she could hide and what not and get away a little bit, Specailly in the few mins he was fighting Jack) i think Ethan was with someone, Basicly they must of put hoods over the heads like they did with Kate when Zeek gave her back !!!

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????

I think that Charlie does remember something about the kidnapping. He knew that they only wanted Claire. Never understood why they took him if all they wanted was Claire.

But as far as Sayid is concerned. Sayid was able to torture his commanding officer because of the video that was shown him. His family and friends were killed in that village. He did not forget.
Sayid was also able to beat Henry because the losties camp is like that village to him. He has not forgotten what was done to Charlie and Claire or what was done to Shannon.

He didn't feel guilt for either because he saw it as justified.Or did he? Maybe he wanted support from Charlie because he knew that if anyone could understand what he felt it was Charlie.

At one point Charlie had lost Claire (when he still had a chance with her) because of the others. Sayid has lost Shannon because of the others.I think he's looking for someone who can understand where he's coming from.

I think that Charlie does remember something about the kidnapping. He knew that they only wanted Claire. Never understood why they took him if all they wanted was Claire.

I think Charlie just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. They wanted Claire, but they couldn't let him get away and tell the others, so they took him probably figuring he'd come in handy later, and he did. When they realized they were being followed, Ethan and whoever was helping him strung Charlie up as a diversion.

I always thought it was a brilliant move actually. They needed something that would stop Jack in his tracks. If they just killed Charlie some other way and left him on the ground, Jack either might have missed him completely or kept pursuing Claire since there was nothing he could do for him. But with the hanging, it was visually hard to miss (it sent a damn powerful message besides being great TV), it stopped them in their tracks, and since he required CPR, it took time and allowed the others to get away with Claire. That's why I think Ethan wasn't surprised when he saw Charlie alive later. They were either being watched or it was intended that he be saved.

I think Charlie just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. They wanted Claire, but they couldn't let him get away and tell the others, so they took him probably figuring he'd come in handy later, and he did. When they realized they were being followed, Ethan and whoever was helping him strung Charlie up as a diversion.

I always thought it was a brilliant move actually. They needed something that would stop Jack in his tracks. If they just killed Charlie some other way and left him on the ground, Jack either might have missed him completely or kept pursuing Claire since there was nothing he could do for him. But with the hanging, it was visually hard to miss (it sent a damn powerful message besides being great TV), it stopped them in their tracks, and since he required CPR, it took time and allowed the others to get away with Claire. That's why I think Ethan wasn't surprised when he saw Charlie alive later. They were either being watched or it was intended that he be saved.


I agree that Ethan and the others used Charlie to stop Jack and get away with Claire but as I recall they made a big deal out of following that trail of tape(fate) that Charlie left behind. If they had just knocked Charlie out and left him then there would have been no tape trail to follow. And since the others don't leave tracks they could have gotten away with Claire without anyone being able to track them.

Keeping that in mind(that if they'd left him they wouldn't have been followed) again -- Why would they take him?

The only thing that I can think of is that they wanted him too(even though he said all they wanted was Claire) but they were willing to give him up when Jack was able to follow because Claire and the baby were more important at the time than Charlie.

Or..... perhaps they knew(somehow) that Charlie was going to leave a trail to follow and they wanted the losties to follow. The trail did split leading Boone and Locke to the hatch. Perhaps for some reason they wanted them to find it.Just thinking out loud.

I agree that Ethan and the others used Charlie to stop Jack and get away with Claire but as I recall they made a big deal out of following that trail of tape(fate) that Charlie left behind. If they had just knocked Charlie out and left him then there would have been no tape trail to follow. And since the others don't leave tracks they could have gotten away with Claire without anyone being able to track them.

Keeping that in mind(that if they'd left him they wouldn't have been followed) again -- Why would they take him?

The only thing that I can think of is that they wanted him too(even though he said all they wanted was Claire) but they were willing to give him up when Jack was able to follow because Claire and the baby were more important at the time than Charlie.

Or..... perhaps they knew(somehow) that Charlie was going to leave a trail to follow and they wanted the losties to follow. The trail did split leading Boone and Locke to the hatch. Perhaps for some reason they wanted them to find it.Just thinking out loud.

I think you're assuming that Charlie left the trail but I don't think he did. Like Kate suggested, it was likely a dummy trail set up by Ethan's team to lead them in the direction of Charlie and away from Claire. Judging from the bruises on Charlie's face (you can see them pretty clearly in Whatever the Case May Be--looks like he was hit in the face) and the fact that his hands weren't tied when he was hanged my guess is Charlie was unconscious almost from the beginning. The tapes were probably taken off him and left by someone else.

The Others don't leave tracks but I'm not so sure Ethan doesn't. Locke was able to track him pretty well until the rain came. They could have knocked Charlie out and just taken Claire but I think they would have been followed sooner. Charlie would have woken up and told the others what happened and they would have gone after her with nothing to divert them. Taking Charlie gave them that diversion to get away. I still think that's the only reason they took him.

Sayid going to Charlie reminded me of two things: trying to find someone who might reinforce Sayid's personal justification of his actions (ie, raising his self-esteem that he wasn't a bad person for what he did; one outcast to another) and feeling Charlie out like he did with Sawyer when Jack was trying to convince people to move to the caves.

I think that was a scene that gets misconstrued alot. I think he was just talking about the fact that there were no others coming to get them at that moment, because they found the black smoke and there was no one there, and the whole thing seemed like a ruse of Danielle's. I think he just meant that they didn't see anyone out there.
Sayid pretty much backed this up when he told Danielle that the last time they'd met, she'd started a smoke screen to distract them and steal the baby. I do think Sayid's wrong though (my red herring theory!) mainly because I do think the Others started the fire ("there are no footprints in the sand") and Danielle just used it to her advantage. She must have thought the Others were there, otherwise why go there to exchange the baby in the first place?

Another point is whilst Jack was having a ruck with Ethan, why did clair & Charlie not do one and run of. why when Ethan was hanging charlie did Claire not run of then,
I am still thinking Claire and Charlie were drugged, like when Danielle drugged Sayid. Charlie's an addict, so he may still have retained some consciousness due to his higher level of resistence. Enough to slip a letter off his fingers, but not enough to fight back or make any other type of more energetic movement.

Because of this, I think Charlie probably would have some buried memories of what happened (like maybe knowing it was more than Ethan and perhaps a conversation or two), but they're suppressed too deep - or have been erased - because of the hanging. Kinda like how victims of violent crimes tend to have no real memory of what happened to them.

Never understood why they took him if all they wanted was Claire.
Neither do I, and I'm completely puzzled by it. The Others can take people at will and you will never notice, even if they're standing right next to you. Cindy's disappearance proved that. They also have nothing against attacking people when they *are* forcibly taking someone away, which was proven with the first "attack" on the tailaways.

There was absolutely no need to take Charlie. None at all. First, they could have taken Claire when Charlie left her alone to go after Jack. Heck, they could have taken her at any time (much like Walt), including when she was traipsing in a huff away from Jack and the caves. Ethan obviously wanted Claire, so why wasn't he keeping a better eye on her for an opportunity to take her when no one was around? (And if Ethan wasn't alone - which I don't think he was - then why weren't the Others watching for a better moment as well?) Second, they could have taken her at any time Charlie and Claire were walking. All they needed was a split second when Charlie would have turned his back, and I'm willing to bet that with Charlie, that would have happened. Third, the Others can leave NO trail. So why did they not only leave a clearly visible one, they also made another? Fourth, it was pure luck that Jack figured out Charlie and Claire were taken to begin with. If Hurley hadn't arrived with the manifest, no one would know the pair were gone for possibly hours more.

Goodwin also clearly stated that the people who were taken were "good" and that's why they were on the list. So again, why take Charlie? In terms of the lostaways, a "good" list just doesn't make sense, unless there's something we don't know yet. I can see Claire being on the list, but not Sun? Michael? Hurley? Not to mention the whole discrepency between the timing and how the Others took people from the tailaways versus the lostaways.

Why they took Charlie instead of either knocking him out, leaving him for dead, or waiting for him to not be around is a complete mystery.

The only thing that I can think of is that they wanted him too (even though he said all they wanted was Claire) but they were willing to give him up when Jack was able to follow because Claire and the baby were more important at the time than Charlie.
That's my train of thought too. Charlie's important somehow (which to me, seems to be continually emphasized and reinforced - particularly with Fire + Water), but perhaps not important enough to have kept at the moment. It was okay to give him back. I don't have any real proof, but I don't think Ethan thought Charlie would really die either.

I ride a fine line between trying to figure out what's with Charlie's role on the island, and not going overboard because I like the character and want him to be important. Half the time when I'm trying to speculate about him I feel like a loon who's reading too much into certain situations. Ugh. Wish I could tell the difference at this point. It doesn't help that the freakin' island is just as weird so it makes any off-the-wall theory look sane comparatively speaking. Guess one day I will find out.

I think you're assuming that Charlie left the trail but I don't think he did. Like Kate suggested, it was likely a dummy trail set up by Ethan's team to lead them in the direction of Charlie and away from Claire. Judging from the bruises on Charlie's face (you can see them pretty clearly in Whatever the Case May Be--looks like he was hit in the face) and the fact that his hands weren't tied when he was hanged my guess is Charlie was unconscious almost from the beginning. The tapes were probably taken off him and left by someone else.

The Others don't leave tracks but I'm not so sure Ethan doesn't. Locke was able to track him pretty well until the rain came. They could have knocked Charlie out and just taken Claire but I think they would have been followed sooner. Charlie would have woken up and told the others what happened and they would have gone after her with nothing to divert them. Taking Charlie gave them that diversion to get away. I still think that's the only reason they took him.

"in the direction of Charlie and away from Claire" -- The trail split. One fork went toward the hatch. The other one went toward Charlie and Claire. The trail did not lead the losties away from Claire toward Charlie. When the trail split Charlie and Claire were still together. The trail split long before Jack even fought with Ethan and Ethan didn't hang Charlie until after that.

The dummy trail that Kate suggested that Ethan set up was the trail that Locke followed which didn't lead to Charlie or Claire but to the hatch. If Ethan and the others were trying to throw the losties off the trail of following them they were doing so with Charlie still in tow.

Don't remember whether his hands were tied or not. I do believe he was blindfolded.

By the time that the rain came Locke was not tracking Ethan . He was already on the hatch trail by then. I remember that he looked up and told Boone "rain" and Boone said something about him not acting like someone who worked for a box company(or something to that extent). The trail that they (Locke and Boone) were on was one that was more worn. It was an actual trail not just tracks left by Ethan.

On The Security System they said that someone over here had answered a question about Ethan and it was said than he was an other.

If Charlie being knocked out would have caused Claire to be found sooner(because he would have woke up and told) why not just kill Charlie right then and there. Why wait? Either way it would have slowed the losties down or stopped them dead in their tracks.
<hr>

Neither do I, and I'm completely puzzled by it. The Others can take people at will and you will never notice, even if they're standing right next to you. Cindy's disappearance proved that. They also have nothing against attacking people when they *are* forcibly taking someone away, which was proven with the first "attack" on the tailaways.

There was absolutely no need to take Charlie. None at all. First, they could have taken Claire when Charlie left her alone to go after Jack. Heck, they could have taken her at any time (much like Walt), including when she was traipsing in a huff away from Jack and the caves. Ethan obviously wanted Claire, so why wasn't he keeping a better eye on her for an opportunity to take her when no one was around? (And if Ethan wasn't alone - which I don't think he was - then why weren't the Others watching for a better moment as well?) Second, they could have taken her at any time Charlie and Claire were walking. All they needed was a split second when Charlie would have turned his back, and I'm willing to bet that with Charlie, that would have happened. Third, the Others can leave NO trail. So why did they not only leave a clearly visible one, they also made another? Fourth, it was pure luck that Jack figured out Charlie and Claire were taken to begin with. If Hurley hadn't arrived with the manifest, no one would know the pair were gone for possibly hours more.



That is an absolutely excellent point about Hurley and the manifest. It had not even occured to me. If they hadn't found out that there was no Ethan Rom on the flight then not only would Claire have went missing so would have Charlie.


[/quote]
That's my train of thought too. Charlie's important somehow (which to me, seems to be continually emphasized and reinforced - particularly with Fire + Water), but perhaps not important enough to have kept at the moment. It was okay to give him back. I don't have any real proof, but I don't think Ethan thought Charlie would really die either. [/quote]


Ethan didn't really seem too surprised about Charlie being alive did he?


[/quote]
I ride a fine line between trying to figure out what's with Charlie's role on the island, and not going overboard because I like the character and want him to be important. Half the time when I'm trying to speculate about him I feel like a loon who's reading too much into certain situations. Ugh. Wish I could tell the difference at this point. It doesn't help that the freakin' island is just as weird so it makes any off-the-wall theory look sane comparatively speaking. Guess one day I will find out.[/quote]

I think that Charlie is one of the more interesting characters on the island and is my favorite. I don't really worry if I read too much into it or not -- it's all part of the fun. But it is possible that one of more of the losties have a more important role than some of the others(lostie others that is). Just look at Shannon and Boone. Their deaths already prove that their roles on the island were not as important to the overall story as the rest of the losties that are still living.

I think sayd was trying to justify himself for torturing the Balloon Boy when he asked Charlie "Have you forgotten?
Like we don´t have to have mercy for anyone.
And yes i think Charlie remembers. I am so sure that he knows more than he says.
Just look at his face.
After he was saved by Jack he spend the next day or 2 without talking. He was deciding what he was gonna say. I think he something to hide.
Will see anyway

There was absolutely no need to take Charlie. None at all. First, they could have taken Claire when Charlie left her alone to go after Jack. Heck, they could have taken her at any time (much like Walt), including when she was traipsing in a huff away from Jack and the caves. Ethan obviously wanted Claire, so why wasn't he keeping a better eye on her for an opportunity to take her when no one was around? (And if Ethan wasn't alone - which I don't think he was - then why weren't the Others watching for a better moment as well?) Second, they could have taken her at any time Charlie and Claire were walking. All they needed was a split second when Charlie would have turned his back, and I'm willing to bet that with Charlie, that would have happened. Third, the Others can leave NO trail. So why did they not only leave a clearly visible one, they also made another? Fourth, it was pure luck that Jack figured out Charlie and Claire were taken to begin with. If Hurley hadn't arrived with the manifest, no one would know the pair were gone for possibly hours more. Why they took Charlie instead of either knocking him out, leaving him for dead, or waiting for him to not be around is a complete mystery.

You make some great points here. Maybe the answer lies in the fact that they chose to make their move on Claire when they thought she was going into labour. Ethan sounded surprised when Charlie told him she was having the baby, and he took off. Maybe he was just monitoring her until that time for some reason. Maybe their intention was to keep her until she gave birth but for reasons we will soon find out (I hope) she got away. By the time Ethan got his buddies and they came on Claire, Charlie was back with her. Again I guess they made a split second decision to take Charlie too. It's possible for reasons you also mention that there was some reason they didn't want to kill him outright.

That's my train of thought too. Charlie's important somehow (which to me, seems to be continually emphasized and reinforced - particularly with Fire + Water), but perhaps not important enough to have kept at the moment. It was okay to give him back. I don't have any real proof, but I don't think Ethan thought Charlie would really die either.

This may help explain why Ethan didn't just kill Charlie instead of taking him. They may feel he's important somehow.

I ride a fine line between trying to figure out what's with Charlie's role on the island, and not going overboard because I like the character and want him to be important. Half the time when I'm trying to speculate about him I feel like a loon who's reading too much into certain situations. Ugh. Wish I could tell the difference at this point. It doesn't help that the freakin' island is just as weird so it makes any off-the-wall theory look sane comparatively speaking. Guess one day I will find out.

I feel the same way. Sometimes I wonder whether I'm reading too much into everything he does just because I like him. :rolleyes:


"in the direction of Charlie and away from Claire" -- The trail split. One fork went toward the hatch. The other one went toward Charlie and Claire. The trail did not lead the losties away from Claire toward Charlie. When the trail split Charlie and Claire were still together. The trail split long before Jack even fought with Ethan and Ethan didn't hang Charlie until after that. The dummy trail that Kate suggested that Ethan set up was the trail that Locke followed which didn't lead to Charlie or Claire but to the hatch. If Ethan and the others were trying to throw the losties off the trail of following them they were doing so with Charlie still in tow.

Are you sure Charlie and Claire were still together when the trail split? I'm not sure of that. I wonder why when Locke followed the trail and found the hatch he never assumed Claire was inside. To me it would be the obvious assumption that that's where Claire was taken. Instead, Locke started speculating about a personal destiny. He forgot all about Claire but I'm not sure why. I still think it's possible that Ethan's team split up at that point, that Ethan took off in one direction with Charlie and someone else took Claire towards the hatch. Of course we now know that was the swan station and not the one Claire was taken to, so maybe I'm all wet. :confused:


Don't remember whether his hands were tied or not. I do believe he was blindfolded.


Yes he was blindfolded but his hands were untied, which tells me he was either drugged or unconscious but they didn't want him to wake up and see anything.

If Charlie being knocked out would have caused Claire to be found sooner(because he would have woke up and told) why not just kill Charlie right then and there. Why wait? Either way it would have slowed the losties down or stopped them dead in their tracks.

Good question. As schoff suggests, it may mean that Charlie is important in some way and they didn't want to kill him.

And yes i think Charlie remembers. I am so sure that he knows more than he says. Just look at his face.
After he was saved by Jack he spend the next day or 2 without talking. He was deciding what he was gonna say. I think he something to hide.

Actually, Charlie was silent for four days. Rose finally got him talking on the fifth day after the hanging. I think he was in a state of shock and depression over Claire. Survivor's guilt. I don't think he remembers anything, I think it actually disturbs him to be reminded of it which is why he looked that way when Sayid asked him about it. He also may have been thinking about what he did to Sun.

Ethan didn't really seem too surprised about Charlie being alive did he?
No. Nor did he seem angry. In fact, Ethan seemed to be expecting him, since Charlie's the specific person he went after to get Claire back. "And Charlie? I'll leave you for last." I am trying *really* hard not to read into all the insinuations that the boy is difficult to kill. I read too much Harry Potter.

But it is possible that one of more of the losties have a more important role than some of the others (lostie others that is).
I agree. So far I think the characters who have been definitively shown as most fated to be on that island are: Hurley, Walt, Aaron (Charlie's vision), Charlie (the plane, drugs, etc), Jack (his vision of his dad directing him to the water, as well as Desmond), Locke, and Eko (the plane). It's almost like the island was waiting and preparing in anticipation of them (yes, that plane really bugs the snot out of me). Kate may come close, since the horse was in her flashback and on the island. Claire too - if the Others really wanted her and not just Aaron.

I also think it's possible that there's a difference in who's wanted by whom. Do the Others want the same people the island does? Or are the Others merely picking and choosing who they want from the people who are fated to be on the island?

Maybe the answer lies in the fact that they chose to make their move on Claire when they thought she was going into labour. Ethan sounded surprised when Charlie told him she was having the baby, and he took off. Maybe he was just monitoring her until that time for some reason. Maybe their intention was to keep her until she gave birth but for reasons we will soon find out (I hope) she got away.
That's what I think they planned with Claire (who inadvertantly thwarted this because she wasn't really in labor, causing Ethan to act more quickly and keep her longer than he wanted to), but it still doesn't really explain why they took Charlie. They could have taken her when Charlie was getting Jack, or left Charlie when he and Claire ran into Ethan on the way back. There just was no reason to take him, not even as a message to get Jack off their trail if needed. Technically, none of the lostaways should have even noticed they were gone.

The only explanation for taking Charlie last minute - possibly as use of a spare insurance policy against being followed - is if the Others were watching Hurley and knew he was heading to tell Jack about the manifest. IMO, that's pretty stupid of them to watch Hurley and not Claire. If Ethan had stepped up his plans and taken her because he feared exposure, that would be one thing. But that's not what happened.

The dummy trail that Kate suggested that Ethan set up was the trail that Locke followed which didn't lead to Charlie or Claire but to the hatch. If Ethan and the others were trying to throw the losties off the trail of following them they were doing so with Charlie still in tow. Are you sure Charlie and Claire were still together when the trail split? I'm not sure of that. I wonder why when Locke followed the trail and found the hatch he never assumed Claire was inside.
I used to think that Charlie and Claire were split up also, but after Michelle67's post, I don't think it's likely anymore. She's right. Locke and Boone were following a dummy trail. Right before it rained (during the day), Locke said the trail had been cold for over 1/4 mile. Between that and Charlie's fingerguards (another reason to suspect Charlie's memory possibly does know something, like a conversation from the Others talking about making a dummy trail), it appears to me that it was a set-up to throw Locke and company off the trail, but Jack didn't fall for it. Since the trail didn't go to the hatch, the Others couldn't have been taking Claire there.

To me it would be the obvious assumption that that's where Claire was taken. Instead, Locke started speculating about a personal destiny. He forgot all about Claire but I'm not sure why.
I was rereading the transcript (http://www.lost-tv.com/transcripts/Daddy_Issues_Lost.htm), and this stuck out:

Boone: Are we lost?
[Shot of Boone and Locke in the dark hiking up a rocking area]
Locke: No, Boone, we're not lost.
Boone: Sorry, it's just it don't see how you can still be following this trail. I think we should go back.
Locke: Don't you feel it?
Boone: Feel what?
Locke: It.
At that point, Locke was no longer following a trail (which had gone cold hours earlier), he was following whatever he felt. It certainly wasn't taking him to Claire. Since he's so obsessed with that hatch, perhaps it was no accident he ended up going on the dummy trail and finding it. F-A-T-E

I think it actually disturbs him to be reminded of it which is why he looked that way when Sayid asked him about it.
I wouldn't want to remember it either. Especially if I had been spending all my energies denying it and trying to act like it hadn't happened.

Actually, Charlie was silent for four days. Rose finally got him talking on the fifth day after the hanging.
I think Rose finally got him talking on the sixth day after the hanging (http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?act=ST&f=723&t=3118611&hl=watching&view=findpost&p=3370443). A night passed in "Whatever The Case May Be" between when Jack pointed a morose Charlie out to Sayid, and Rose telling him to snap out of it.

Hi! I'm new to this forum. :redface:

I too have been wracking my brains for ages trying to work out what happened with Claire, Charlie and Ethan (I am hoping 'Maternity Leave' will finally shed some light on matters).

One thing I find very suspicious is that both Claire and Charlie claim to have suffered from amnesia. I just don't buy it. I think they are suppressing those memories after being somehow brainwashed or otherwised coerced by the others into not to saying anything.

Focusing on Charlie, some of you have been suggesting that he was unconcious throughout the ordeal (either knocked out or drugged). Personally I don't think he was. If he was unconcious through it all, why didn't he just say that to Jack when being questioned? Charlie said he didn't see anything or hear anything (which is pretty standard if you are unconcious - his phrasing suggests that he wasn't) he says he doesn't remember anything, then backtracts and says all they wanted was Claire. If he knew that his kidnappers were a 'they' not a 'he' and got a sense of their objectives, I think he must of been awake for all or part of the kidnap. Plus there's the blindfold - why blindfold an unconcious man?!

The flat emotionless way Charlie tells this to Jack also makes me suspicious. It doesn't sound like he is even TRYING to remember. It almost sounds like he is repeating a set of instructions.

Here's what I think happened that day. I actually think Ethan KNEW he was going to be rumbled since Hurley had been asking for his name and details. The Others knew they had to snatch Claire at the first oppotunity. When Ethan met Charlie and Claire, there was a 'struggle' (as Locke noted) most likely between Charlie and Ethan with Ethan easily winning. At this point I think some more Others must have arrived to prevent Claire from fleeing (or maybe Claire just didn't want to abandon Charlie). Ethan would not necessarily have needed to tie Charlie and Claire up and drag them, he could simply use the threat of violence to subdue them - especially if he had others helping him with the kidnap.

I agree that why was Charlie taken is the biggest mystery here. I agree that for some reason the others wanted Charlie alive otherwise why would they not just have killed him straight away and made off with Claire. Plus why was Charlie blindfolded? So that he couldn't see what was going on and give information to Jack and co? This makes me think the Others never intended to kill Charlie - they hung him to stop Jack and Kate in their tracks, knowing they'd have to take time to revive Charlie and bring him back to the camp. Also - do you think there is a chance Ethan would NOT have hung Charlie but kept him prisoner if Jack HAD turned back when Ethan gave his first warning? I do think the Others may have some kind of purpose for Charlie, hence why Ethan came specifically to Charlie to demand Claire back (and yes, he didn't seem very susprised to find Charlie alive).

One more thing - I think Charlie and Claire were together when the trails split, just because Jack hears a scream up ahead that to my mind can only be Claire's scream - but if it was then what made Claire scream? Did she maybe even witness Charlie's hanging?

Thats enough from me for now...

Hey Captain! Welcome to The Fuselage.

I just had a thought...We saw in the preview.

That Claire was in the "hospital hatch" having what looking like amniocentesis done. That would provide whoever was doing the test with her baby's DNA. What if they also tested Charlie and when they found out he was not the baby's father they decided he was no longer interesting.

Just a thought...

I think Rose finally got him talking on the sixth day after the hanging (http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?act=ST&f=723&t=3118611&hl=watching&view=findpost&p=3370443). A night passed in "Whatever The Case May Be" between when Jack pointed a morose Charlie out to Sayid, and Rose telling him to snap out of it.

Thank schoff. I guess I always interpreted Shannon's line to mean it was now four days, and I knew a night had passed so I counted five. Six probably makes more sense. Either way, long time to sulk.

Hi! I'm new to this forum. :redface:

Hello. :wavey:


Focusing on Charlie, some of you have been suggesting that he was unconcious throughout the ordeal (either knocked out or drugged). Personally I don't think he was. If he was unconcious through it all, why didn't he just say that to Jack when being questioned? Charlie said he didn't see anything or hear anything (which is pretty standard if you are unconcious - his phrasing suggests that he wasn't) he says he doesn't remember anything, then backtracts and says all they wanted was Claire. If he knew that his kidnappers were a 'they' not a 'he' and got a sense of their objectives, I think he must of been awake for all or part of the kidnap. Plus there's the blindfold - why blindfold an unconcious man?!


Then maybe he was drugged but didn't realize it. He thinks he was awake but can't recall what happened. A drug will do that.

The flat emotionless way Charlie tells this to Jack also makes me suspicious. It doesn't sound like he is even TRYING to remember. It almost sounds like he is repeating a set of instructions.

I'm going with the shock of having been killed. But if the drug theory is correct, maybe they gave him instructions on what to say while he was under the influence of it, and it's all he remembers. But the all they wanted was Claire part could be the one thing he remembers on his own.


Here's what I think happened that day. I actually think Ethan KNEW he was going to be rumbled since Hurley had been asking for his name and details. The Others knew they had to snatch Claire at the first oppotunity. When Ethan met Charlie and Claire, there was a 'struggle' (as Locke noted) most likely between Charlie and Ethan with Ethan easily winning. At this point I think some more Others must have arrived to prevent Claire from fleeing (or maybe Claire just didn't want to abandon Charlie). Ethan would not necessarily have needed to tie Charlie and Claire up and drag them, he could simply use the threat of violence to subdue them - especially if he had others helping him with the kidnap.


Good thoughts.

One more thing - I think Charlie and Claire were together when the trails split, just because Jack hears a scream up ahead that to my mind can only be Claire's scream - but if it was then what made Claire scream? Did she maybe even witness Charlie's hanging?

I used to think that too, but alot happens between the scream and finding Charlie. Charlie wasn't hanging that long. Plus, Ethan shows up after the scream. Why would he threaten to kill Charlie after he had already done it? I agree that might have been her scream but it must have been for some other reason.

What if they tested Charlie and when they found out he was not the baby's father they decided he was no longer interesting.

This part is just a theory so I removed the spoiler font to comment. I'm not sure they had time to do that between the abduction and the hanging, unless they didn't test him but just asked Claire outright if he was the father. But the psychic said the father would play no part in the baby's life and if you believe everything is connected, my guess is they somehow knew this already, especially if they were being watched from the time of the crash. They met on the island. Ethan would likely have known that.

I used to think that too, but alot happens between the scream and finding Charlie. Charlie wasn't hanging that long. Plus, Ethan shows up after the scream. Why would he threaten to kill Charlie after he had already done it? I agree that might have been her scream but it must have been for some other reason.


Actually I've heard that people can be hung by the neck a long time - hours even - before they suffocate due to strangulation. Plus Charlie had his hands free, which would have meant he could fend off death for a while, though he wouldn't have been able to get himself free.

This is just an idea - but I actually don't think Ethan would have had time to make the noose and string Charlie up and have him hanging so long he blacks out and stops breathing in between his confrontation with Jack and making off with Claire. It could be that when Ethan makes his threat to Jack he has already made the preparations to hang Charlie - thinking that if Jack kept following he'd see the threat was carried out OR if Jack had turned back Ethan might have cut Charlie down himself and taken off with both him and Claire.

Personally I reckon Claires scream was either from seeing Charlie hanged or learning that the Others were going to hang him (i.e. seeing them making the noose).

The Others knew they had to snatch Claire at the first opportunity.
My biggest problem with this is that it was not the first opportunity. There was when she was traipsing through the jungle, as well as sitting alone while Charlie went for help. I just have to go back to the fact that if Ethan wasn't working alone (which it seems almost 100% positive) and wanted Claire so badly, WHY weren't they keeping a better eye on her?

Again, I don't think they thought Claire and Charlie's disappearance would be noticed so soon. They specifically took Claire at a time Charlie was with her. This guarantees no one's going to notice Claire gone for awhile. Remember, all the windows to actually take Claire occur when Charlie's coming after her. He'd notice pretty quickly if he couldn't find her. If the Others were so intent on not raising the alarm, but not wanting Charlie as well, then why not just knock him out or kill him off right then and there? No one was looking for Charlie. His absence wouldn't be noticed for awhile. Everyone would just assume he was Claire.

Ethan would not necessarily have needed to tie Charlie and Claire up and drag them, he could simply use the threat of violence to subdue them - especially if he had others helping him with the kidnap.
I think they would have had to do something with Charlie and Claire because of the noise. Claire spent the whole episode proving how much air her lungs can hold as she was screaming her head off when she woke up.

One more thing - I think Charlie and Claire were together when the trails split, just because Jack hears a scream up ahead that to my mind can only be Claire's scream - but if it was then what made Claire scream? Did she maybe even witness Charlie's hanging?
That's assuming the scream was real and not some message to Jack - like his vision of his dad. Kate didn't hear the scream and she was standing right next to him.

Then maybe he was drugged but didn't realize it. He thinks he was awake but can't recall what happened. A drug will do that.
I don't think Charlie was completely unconscious, but near unconscious. That dream-like state where you're subconsciously aware of things but nothing concrete and nothing that can make a permanent record in your memory - except for the "All they wanted was Claire" line.

This is just an idea - but I actually don't think Ethan would have had time to make the noose and string Charlie up and have him hanging so long he blacks out and stops breathing in between his confrontation with Jack and making off with Claire. It could be that when Ethan makes his threat to Jack he has already made the preparations to hang Charlie - thinking that if Jack kept following he'd see the threat was carried out OR if Jack had turned back Ethan might have cut Charlie down himself and taken off with both him and Claire.
I'm sort of agreeing. I used to think that Charlie was never meant to survive because time-wise, Ethan must have hung Charlie before he went back to Jack.

However, since I'm now convince Ethan wasn't alone, it's very possible that Ethan was sent back as a distraction to allow the Others to hang up Charlie. Perhaps they knew Jack was gaining - and would NOT give up - so they made the decision to give Charlie back since he wasn't the most important at the moment. (Seriously, they can always get Charlie back again whenever they want). Ethan was sent down to stall for time. The Others strung up Charlie and left with Claire. Ethan disappeared. And Jack and Kate kept going and came across Charlie, which made the hunt for Claire and the Others literally stop dead in their tracks. The way Jack is, and the way he was acting at the time, that was the only way the Others were going to get him off their backs without killing him also.

Good points, Scoff. I had forgotten to take Claire banshee scream into account! Considering that I think if anyone was unconscious during the kidnap it was Claire. The Others probably could have gotten Charlie to shut up through threats. Claire on the other hand was pregnant and hysterical - when Jack heard her sceaming it may just have been that she had woken up and freaked out.

I think whether Charlie was conscious or not, comes down to whether you think his plaster trail was real or dummy. If it was real and he was sneakily leaving them without the Others knowing he must have had his wits about him.

Plus, Jack's gang WERE looking for Charlie as well as Claire. As soon as Hurley makes his revelation about the manifest Jack and Locke very quickly establish that Charlie is missing and that he is with Claire.

Plus, Jack's gang WERE looking for Charlie as well as Claire.
Yes, but the thought of looking for him didn't occur to Jack until after Hurley came with the info about Ethan not being on the manifest. Charlie, OTOH, would have just plain old been looking for Claire. Which is what he did pretty much the entire episode.

[QUOTE]
Are you sure Charlie and Claire were still together when the trail split? I'm not sure of that. I wonder why when Locke followed the trail and found the hatch he never assumed Claire was inside. To me it would be the obvious assumption that that's where Claire was taken. Instead, Locke started speculating about a personal destiny. He forgot all about Claire but I'm not sure why. I still think it's possible that Ethan's team split up at that point, that Ethan took off in one direction with Charlie and someone else took Claire towards the hatch. Of course we now know that was the swan station and not the one Claire was taken to, so maybe I'm all wet. :confused:



If we take Ethan's word for it he said to Jack "If you don't stop following me I'll kill one of them". Now he could have been lying but if he wasn't we can assume that both Charlie and Claire were with him.


Yes he was blindfolded but his hands were untied, which tells me he was either drugged or unconscious but they didn't want him to wake up and see anything.


I doubt that what I'm about to say is likely but since Ethan tried to do something to Claire's baby when she was still with the losties(some say he was injecting others say he was trying to get a sample of Aaron's blood) at times I've wondered if he might have done something to Charlie as well. Like you said he might have been drugged but in that state it would have been easy for them to do anything to him that they wanted to. With all the weirdness of the island it might have been possible that the reason that Charlie was able to be revived from the hanging was because Ethan had done something to him.Ethan knew Jack was a doctor and may have suspected that he wouldn't give up so easily on trying to revive him -- afterall look how hard he was pursuing Ethan.Maybe in the end Ethan wasn't surprised at Charlie's survival because Ethan had done something to Charlie to help him survive because he is important to the others. Just not as important to them at the time as Claire's baby was.

Like I said that may not be very likely but it's just a thought. One of the things I find interesting about Charlie's character is that for all the crap that happens to him he's got to be the luckiest person on the isalnd. On the plane he was almost squashed by luggage(or something) coming toward him. He flew up and hit the ceiling. He survived the crash. He survived being cut by one of the boars that were in the remnant of the plane. He's escaped the monster. He escaped the cave in -- not once but twice.(without Jack and then with Jack when he rescued him.) He was hung and left for dead(was dead) but came back.He almost fell into a ravine(or whatever) when he crossed the bridge after Hurley when Hurley's numbers were supposed to be working.And with Hurley's bad luck you'd think that his closest friend on the island would be in the greatest danger but Arzt gets it and Charlie keeps right on going.He gets knocked in the head with rocks. And punched by Locke. He's got to be the luckiest person all things considering I've ever seen. Or maybe he's just got someone looking after him(the religious angle).


Good question. As schoff suggests, it may mean that Charlie is important in some way and they didn't want to kill him.


Yeh, I want Charlie to be important to the island too. I guess when you look at him you see someone that in his on mind feels like nothing and you want to see him succeed in some way -- to be more important that what other people think of him.


Actually, Charlie was silent for four days. Rose finally got him talking on the fifth day after the hanging. I think he was in a state of shock and depression over Claire. Survivor's guilt. I don't think he remembers anything, I think it actually disturbs him to be reminded of it which is why he looked that way when Sayid asked him about it. He also may have been thinking about what he did to Sun.


I still think he may have some memories but they may not be all that clear. It's possible that he's pushing them down because he doesn't want to remember. Of course that's not good. It may be that when they resurface that he loses it again -- reliving a trauma. My concern is that next episode they'll focus more on what happened to Claire after she and Ethan reached their destination and we won't get the answers to what happened to Charlie. Of course they could save those for another Charlie-centric episode.

One of the things I find interesting about Charlie's character is that for all the crap that happens to him he's got to be the luckiest person on the isalnd. On the plane he was almost squashed by luggage(or something) coming toward him. He flew up and hit the ceiling. He survived the crash. He survived being cut by one of the boars that were in the remnant of the plane. He's escaped the monster. He escaped the cave in -- not once but twice.(without Jack and then with Jack when he rescued him.) He was hung and left for dead(was dead) but came back.He almost fell into a ravine(or whatever) when he crossed the bridge after Hurley when Hurley's numbers were supposed to be working.And with Hurley's bad luck you'd think that his closest friend on the island would be in the greatest danger but Arzt gets it and Charlie keeps right on going.He gets knocked in the head with rocks. And punched by Locke. He's got to be the luckiest person all things considering I've ever seen. Or maybe he's just got someone looking after him(the religious angle).

He is a lucky bugger isn't he? He's taken more physical punishment than anyone on that island (don't forget heroin withdrawal) and he always manages to come through. Combine that with his recent visions and I think he's important in some way. He's indestructible, there has to be a reason.


My concern is that next episode they'll focus more on what happened to Claire after she and Ethan reached their destination and we won't get the answers to what happened to Charlie. Of course they could save those for another Charlie-centric episode.


I think you're right. I asked Matt Raggs about that and he said this episode would focus more on Claire. I have a feeling not a lot happened to Charlie other than what we saw so we may never learn more of the small details because we already know everything that is important to the story.

[quote=schoff;810509]No. Nor did he seem angry. In fact, Ethan seemed to be expecting him, since Charlie's the specific person he went after to get Claire back. "And Charlie? I'll leave you for last." I am trying *really* hard not to read into all the insinuations that the boy is difficult to kill. I read too much Harry Potter.


I hadn't read this before I posted the above thing on Charlie's luck. I had posted something like it on another forum and someone started saying Charlie was invincible. Personally I like the idea. But I may being going over the top with it but you have to admit with the island almost anything may be possible. If Walt and Aaron are special in some way -- why not Charlie?

The fact that Ethan went to Charlie in the first place has always bothered me. Why didn't Ethan go to Jack? He had been with the losties long enough to see the emerging leadership of Jack at that point. Charlie wasn't in charge. Why Charlie? The only thing that I've been able to come up with is that he thought Charlie was close enough to Claire to convince her to come back or to trick her into coming back.






I used to think that Charlie and Claire were split up also, but after Michelle67's post, I don't think it's likely anymore. She's right. Locke and Boone were following a dummy trail. Right before it rained (during the day), Locke said the trail had been cold for over 1/4 mile. Between that and Charlie's fingerguards (another reason to suspect Charlie's memory possibly does know something, like a conversation from the Others talking about making a dummy trail), it appears to me that it was a set-up to throw Locke and company off the trail, but Jack didn't fall for it. Since the trail didn't go to the hatch, the Others couldn't have been taking Claire there.



I was rereading the transcript (http://www.lost-tv.com/transcripts/Daddy_Issues_Lost.htm), and this stuck out:



At that point, Locke was no longer following a trail (which had gone cold hours earlier), he was following whatever he felt. It certainly wasn't taking him to Claire. Since he's so obsessed with that hatch, perhaps it was no accident he ended up going on the dummy trail and finding it. F-A-T-E



Thanks for the reminder about the trail going cold -- once again didn't remember that part.I didn't quote that part but you were talking about the island vs. the others. As I look at what you've wrote here it almost sounds like the island was influencing Charlie to leave the trail that brought Locke to the hatch.

You've been on this forum longer than me so you probably already know about the Whispers and Other Hidden Audio Clues.On the other forum I'm on someone had said that once there was an experiment that dealt with mind control. The name of the experiment was P.A.C.E. Don't know what it stands for and sometimes people will put out misinformation but the other stuff they posted with it looked legit. Been a long time since I read that post. But after the fire and water episode some of us thought Charlie might have been being controlled somehow. When I saw the transcripts from his dream on the whispers thread it seemed to me that that was exactly what was going on. Of all of them I think Charlie being a former addict would be the easiest to influence since drugs affect the mind and break down resistence and it's not always temporary.It's possible if this is what is happening that the island or whatever is influencing him may have been causing him to leave the trail to not only be followed to rescue him but to get Locke to the hatch.

Note: both times Charlie may have been unconscious when these things took place. He certainly was asleep when he was dreaming and took Aaron the first time. He may also have been unconscious when he was leaving the trail.

I know that's a little weird but I found it strange that all these people on the island are seeing things wide awake. Charlie sees it when asleep. It's almost like he was taken over by someone or something else.( Barring that he doesn't have a split personality or something).Was he really the one in control either one of these times?

If the island (or whatever) is influencing him -- I wonder if Ethan may have picked up on that and that's why they took him not knowing that the island(or whatever) was going to use him to leave a trail for Locke to the hatch. Simply just a lot of loose little thought's based on your comments.

Maybe it all goes back to the black/white Good/Evil. We just don't know which is which or which ones are influencing whom.
<hr>
.



[QUOTE]
I used to think that too, but alot happens between the scream and finding Charlie. Charlie wasn't hanging that long. Plus, Ethan shows up after the scream. Why would he threaten to kill Charlie after he had already done it? I agree that might have been her scream but it must have been for some other reason.


Okay I don't remember the scream either. It's funny how some people remember some parts and others remember other parts and when we start posting we get the whole picture.Thanks for reminding me.

If Claire screamed before Charlie's hanging is it possible that she might have witnessed something being done to Charlie? Just a possibility



This part is just a theory so I removed the spoiler font to comment. I'm not sure they had time to do that between the abduction and the hanging, unless they didn't test him but just asked Claire outright if he was the father. But the psychic said the father would play no part in the baby's life and if you believe everything is connected, my guess is they somehow knew this already, especially if they were being watched from the time of the crash. They met on the island. Ethan would likely have known that.


I agree with you on this one. I have a feeling they already knew that Charlie wasn't the father.


And this is to Captain_Falafel --- Good point about the blindfold.

Several different thoughts on that.

If they didn't want Charlie to see anything -- why? If they had no intention of letting him go with the possiblity of leading the losties to Claire(fat change with Charlie's tracking skills if he's really that bad at it) why blindfold him at all. Really I see no reason to blindfold him. He can't lead them to Claire if he escapes(interesting isn't it -- he's so bad at tracking in the jungle but he can retrace his steps to the drug plane and bring back all those statues). What is it that they didn't want him to see unless it was their faces? Sounds like they were planning to let him go and least from this perspective(I like to look at every possibility by the way -- not just my on personal theories).So why would they take him in the first place if they planned to let him go -- a little experiment perhaps. As I said above, the scream Claire(which I'm now remembering) made may have been as she witnessed something done to Charlie before the hanging. So I guess Claire would not have been blindfolded if her scream was because she saw something.

Of course going back to my ultra weird thoughts of Charlie being controlled when he's unconscious or asleep. What if at those times(like in his dream) he's simply takin over by someone else and the others were'nt blindfolding Charlie so much as they were the person who takes over Charlie (or sees out of Charlie's eyes).

Think about his dream for a minute: Charlie saw himself swim out into the water to get the baby from the crib in the water. We know that what he really did was go to the crib and take the baby from the crib in Claire's tent.

Charlie is seeing it one way on the inside of himself completley different from what's really taking place. What if someone(whispers perhaps) weren't able to just influence but to take over. What if they could see through someone elses eyes? I know -- way out there. But don't forget that Sawyer(when he was unconscious) was speaking words that Kate's dad spoke.
<hr>

[quote=Captain_Falafel;810635]Actually I've heard that people can be hung by the neck a long time - hours even - before they suffocate due to strangulation. Plus Charlie had his hands free, which would have meant he could fend off death for a while, though he wouldn't have been able to get himself free.


Interesting that they kept his hands free. It almost proves what's been being said about them wanting Charlie but being willing to give him up for the time being because Aaron was the priority for the moment. Having his hands free would have allowed him to pull himself up to prolong the inevitable, giving Jack enough time to get there. The others didn't want him dead.


Personally I reckon Claires scream was either from seeing Charlie hanged or learning that the Others were going to hang him (i.e. seeing them making the noose).



Another possiblity is that up until that point she had been unconsious and just woke up to see what was happening and she screamed.

Also could be that the others discovered that Charlie had been leaving the tape behind as a clue and they attcked him in some way and Claire screamed when it happened.

Now I like the idea of Charlie's hands being free to perhaps prolong the inevitable but there is another possiblity. Perhaps they didn't tie Charlies hands because at this point they did knock him unconscious before they hung him.In fact if they discovered that he was leaving a trail they might have knocked him unconscious then.Got nine lives doesn't he.

Some very interesting points in this thread and some questions that i think may never be answered for the simple reason that the show isn't perfectly written. There are plot holes, there are mistakes, there are ' deus ex machina ' which the writers can call upon at later dates. e.g The plane found by Locke and Boone. Later used to help create a character for Eko and to reintroduce Charlies drug problem.

The writers have an obligation to stretch Lost out for as long as possible whilst studio execs are happy and so there will be plenty of twisting and 360 degree turns along the way.

MacGuffins aplenty.

two problems here. The plane was in a dream. It wasn't real. And it happened two days ago as far as the island timeline is concerned.

I agree. He also had no memory of how he arrived at the beach with the baby a couple of weeks ago when the plane came down (was Henry Gale on that plane, I wonder?).

One of the things I find interesting about Charlie's character is that for all the crap that happens to him he's got to be the luckiest person on the isalnd. On the plane he was almost squashed by luggage(or something) coming toward him. He flew up and hit the ceiling. He survived the crash. He survived being cut by one of the boars that were in the remnant of the plane. He's escaped the monster. He escaped the cave in -- not once but twice.(without Jack and then with Jack when he rescued him.) He was hung and left for dead(was dead) but came back.He almost fell into a ravine(or whatever) when he crossed the bridge after Hurley when Hurley's numbers were supposed to be working.And with Hurley's bad luck you'd think that his closest friend on the island would be in the greatest danger but Arzt gets it and Charlie keeps right on going.He gets knocked in the head with rocks. And punched by Locke. He's got to be the luckiest person all things considering I've ever seen. Or maybe he's just got someone looking after him(the religious angle).
Don't forget the swarm of bees, close call with the engine, being choked - with his feet off the ground - by Ethan (also Eko did this, but far less forcibly), and nearly getting shot by Danielle. I also want to add that he was in a tree when the monster was uprooting them.

I'm soooo glad I'm not the only one to notice these things! Whew.

Some very interesting points in this thread and some questions that i think may never be answered for the simple reason that the show isn't perfectly written. There are plot holes, there are mistakes, there are ' deus ex machina ' which the writers can call upon at later dates. e.g The plane found by Locke and Boone.
Personally, I no longer think the plane is an example of that (although I did when it was introduced), but I will agree that we may never find most of the smaller things out - like what happened when they hung Charlie or why they let him go. I do think we'll find out Charlie's connection to the island though, since that's a much larger plot point.

Some very interesting points in this thread and some questions that i think may never be answered for the simple reason that the show isn't perfectly written. There are plot holes, there are mistakes, there are ' deus ex machina ' which the writers can call upon at later dates. e.g The plane found by Locke and Boone. Later used to help create a character for Eko and to reintroduce Charlies drug problem.

The writers have an obligation to stretch Lost out for as long as possible whilst studio execs are happy and so there will be plenty of twisting and 360 degree turns along the way.

MacGuffins aplenty.

Actually I think some of the things that we may look at as holes may have answers down the line. Afterall Claire kidnapping is essentially a hole -- it's unanswered at least until tomorrow night. I can live with not having every little detail being revealed(I can add my own) I just don't want contradictions. Answers to unresolved questions that contradict what we already know about the subject matter.

I also agree with Schoff on the plane thing -- they've gotten too much storyline out of that plane for it to simply be something they threw in there the first seaon and decided to use later.
<hr>

[quote=schoff;814366]Don't forget the swarm of bees, close call with the engine, being choked - with his feet off the ground - by Ethan (also Eko did this, but far less forcibly), and nearly getting shot by Danielle. I also want to add that he was in a tree when the monster was uprooting them.



And the list goes on.

That scene with the engine was when I first took real notice of Charlie(of course that was his first or one of his first scenes).But compared with everyone else he was acting so different. Face it he was almost like a zombie out there. I thought he was in shock -- only later to find out he had just gotten high in the bathroom before the plane went down. I mean it was weird -- the falling airplane parts come down and he looks around and it's like" Oh, I guess I need to get out of the way". And then someone does get sucked up in the engine and I'm thinking "Who is this guy?" because it really looked like it should have been him but it wasn't. It was at that point I started watching his character alittle more closely than the other losties.

Forgot to add this (about Charlie's numerous encounters with nearly dying) -- we have no idea how many times Charlie may have come close to overdosing before the plane crash.

And the choking you added to the list -- might not be a coincedence. He's been hung, choked by Ethan, and by Eko. Strange question but what is it about Charlie's neck? I wonder if somewhere in his backstory we'll find out that someone tried to choke him or something. A lot of people thought that the flashback about Charlie's dad in his dream might have been hinting at child abuse .

That scene with the engine was when I first took real notice of Charlie(of course that was his first or one of his first scenes).But compared with everyone else he was acting so different. Face it he was almost like a zombie out there. I thought he was in shock -- only later to find out he had just gotten high in the bathroom before the plane went down. I mean it was weird -- the falling airplane parts come down and he looks around and it's like" Oh, I guess I need to get out of the way". And then someone does get sucked up in the engine and I'm thinking "Who is this guy?" because it really looked like it should have been him but it wasn't. It was at that point I started watching his character alittle more closely than the other losties.

I love how we met Charlie in the Pilot. While others are screaming, running around, helping each other after the crash, he's wandering in a daze. Now of course, you can watch it and realize he's high. Then later, when Sayid first talks to him and asks him to help with the fire, you can tell he's coming down--he's sitting with his head buried, he rubs his nose and sniffs, his hands are twitching. It's really a great introduction to a character and Dom did it so well because it was subtle. You would almost miss these things the first time until you see the flashback and find out he was on drugs.

I love how we met Charlie in the Pilot. While others are screaming, running around, helping each other after the crash, he's wandering in a daze. Now of course, you can watch it and realize he's high. Then later, when Sayid first talks to him and asks him to help with the fire, you can tell he's coming down--he's sitting with his head buried, he rubs his nose and sniffs, his hands are twitching. It's really a great introduction to a character and Dom did it so well because it was subtle. You would almost miss these things the first time until you see the flashback and find out he was on drugs.

Got a question for ya? Or any one else out there who might have the answer. I'm lousy with time. But I did notice in one of Charlie's flashbacks that the amount of time he waited before taking his next hit might have been longer than when we see him at the plane.I was just wondering how far he had gone done hill since that time.

It was the eppy where he hooks up with the girl so he can steal from her in order to get drugs. Charlie got to the place where he actually wanted to try and make a go of it with her and was waffling on stealing from her. His friend(who set the whole thing up) says something to Charlie to the effect of we'd see how he felt about not stealing from her when he needed another fix.

Now as I said I'm not that good with actual (tick tock) time, but didn't the time it took him to actually be needing more drugs -- wasn't it maybe(just guessing here) a couple of days. Whereas when we see him with Sayid building the fire it hasn't been that long since he got high. I think I remember that Jack told the pilot that they had been there for 16 hours(could be wrong about that too).What I'm getting at is that it may be that Charlie's dependency on drugs at the point had increased to the point that he needed them every few hours. Not that he went through fullblown withdrawal everyfew hours but that he started showing those signs(hand shaking and such).

So the question is does anyone know the amount of time that had lapsed between Charlie in the bathroom and when he starts the shaking as he walks away from Sayid when they're building the signal fire?

So the question is does anyone know the amount of time that had lapsed between Charlie in the bathroom and when he starts the shaking as he walks away from Sayid when they're building the signal fire?
It had to have been several hours, since it was the night of the crash. Charlie didn't get a fix until the next day when he got his stash back.

Remember, his reaction in "Homecoming" was much worse because he'd been detoxing for a couple of days. After only a couple of hours, I would imagine he'd still be fairly good, only a twitch and a need for a fix and not yet anywhere near the overwhelming symptoms that he must have felt at Lucy's house. And he was suffering there. As time goes on, the worse and worse it gets. Charlie was probably suffering at the signal fire, but not nearly as much as when the drugs would be completely gone from his system.

Tommy: When do you start this job?
Charlie: Monday.
Tommy: Today's Friday, isn't it? After a weekend without a fix Monday should be bloody wonderful. Let's see how the future treats you then, hey Charlie.

Probably a better time comparison would be how he felt after giving the drugs to Locke. I think that was only a day. But at that point, as much as he was suffering, most of it was in his mind. It didn't seem to be the real pain he experienced back in "Homecoming." That's my interpretation, anyways.

I've tried to figure it out before and what I come to is Charlie probably needed a fix on the island every 8 hours or so, about three times a day, to feel normal. He presumably took a hit before he got on the plane, and was jonesing after they had been in flight for eight hours (according to the pilot's assessment of when they hit turbulence). After they crashed, he was jonesing for another fix at around sunset. He had to get through it until the next morning when he went off in search of the cockpit. When he got there, he immediately did another hit in the bathroom. If it had been 16 hours, he wouldn't be having actual withdrawal yet, he just would have missed one hit on his schedule, but he was feeling it. He then took another later that day before going on the hike, I believe.

He wouldn't really get sick unless he had gone without his drugs for more than 1-2 days, which is what you see in the Moth and in Homecoming. He was starting to feel bad after a day, and violently ill after two days. Since the Moth and Homecoming withdrawal times are consistent, I would conclude Charlie hadn't gone downhill in that time, that he was using at the same level then as he was on the island.

Wow, this thread's really gone off topic hasn't it? *gets out the map* Now where are we?

Yeh, a little off topic but thanks for the input. Of course Charlie's past drug addiction may be contributing to some forgetfulness on his part.

You ever wonder why Charlie wasn't freaking out about someone coming to rescue them when Sayid sat next to him and said "you would have thought someone would have come by now"? Charlie says "huh" or "who" or something like that. For a drug addict who at that point didn't know that Kate and Jack were going to the cockpit(where his drugs were) you would have thought rescue would have been on his mind so that he could get back to civilation to get more heroin.

It' is possible I guess that Charlie's memory problem may stem from his past drug usage.Dead brain cells and all. Of course as others have said drug addicts avoid problems -- a sketchy memory may simply be a defense mechanism on his part. Not wanting to deal with what happened.