I find it interesting that people on the island know Sayid is a torturer because he was in the Iraqi Army. But now we find out that the reason he is a torturer is because an American taught him!

Also, I see the losties all reverting back to the people they were when they show started. Sayid, who said he'd never torture again, seemed to take some pride in his torturing last night. Sawyer, who people were starting to actually like, quickly put an end to that last episode. Charlie appears to be headed back to addiction. I'm thinking soon Jin will become overprotective (to the point of over possessive) of Sun again because of the attack.

I agree. It has seemed that everyone is going back to their old ways. I guess when you're stuck on an island with all these freaky things happening, you're personality goes through the ringer and back again. But I don't think Charlie will go back to drugs. I honestly believe that he wants Claire back and he's just become bitter because Locke is moving in on his territory.

They probably realize by now that they are there for the duration. Once they realize they are not leaving any time soon, self-preservation becomes the main motivation for the losties.

Well Americans did not teach Sayid to become a torturer, they gave him the tools to do so and he did it based upon his commander's actions. He was not threatened to do so....

I agree that the losties are reverting back to themselves, their true selves... Sayid says that something inside him always was a person who could torture somebody, Sawyer is indeed an @$$ and proves it. I don't think Charlie will revert back to drugs because that is not who he really was, his brother got him into it. And yes i think Jin, after the attack, will be very overprotective of Sun which isn't that outrageous since the woman he loves was attacked when she was alone.....

I find it interesting that people on the island know Sayid is a torturer because he was in the Iraqi Army. But now we find out that the reason he is a torturer is because an American taught him!

Also, I see the losties all reverting back to the people they were when they show started. Sayid, who said he'd never torture again, seemed to take some pride in his torturing last night. Sawyer, who people were starting to actually like, quickly put an end to that last episode. Charlie appears to be headed back to addiction. I'm thinking soon Jin will become overprotective (to the point of over possessive) of Sun again because of the attack.

Well Americans did not teach Sayid to become a torturer, they gave him the tools to do so and he did it based upon his commander's actions. He was not threatened to do so....

I agree that the losties are reverting back to themselves, their true selves... Sayid says that something inside him always was a person who could torture somebody, Sawyer is indeed an @$$ and proves it. I don't think Charlie will revert back to drugs because that is not who he really was, his brother got him into it. And yes i think Jin, after the attack, will be very overprotective of Sun which isn't that outrageous since the woman he loves was attacked when she was alone.....

True. Americans did not technically teach Sayid to become a torturer. But they literally gave him the tools. And they had more of an influence on his torturing (it was implied what he was supposed to do with the tools) than the Iraqis did.

I also agree that it's not outrageous that Jin reverts back to being overprotective. I don't think any of us would blame him. We'll just see how far he takes it. But you have to be fair. If Charlie isn't going to do drugs because "that's not who he really was", then you have to say the same for Sawyer. Circumstances nudged Sawyer into becoming an @$$ as well. He was a child who heard his father kill his mother and then basically saw his father kill himself. Where did he go from there? How did he get there exactly? Well, we don't know for sure, but if you ask me, there's a huge chance Sawyer could've been a "normal" law-abiding citizen if that wouldn't have happened to his parents. Just like Charlie probably wouldn't have gotten into drugs if his brother hadn't taken the path as well. They both (Sawyer and Charlie) made their own choices...even though one path was more well lit for them than the other. Fair is fair.

Don't get we wrong I agree with you. My point was that we saw Charlie as a good guy through most of his life, only after his band and bro went downhill did he get sucked into drugs. Even during the good band days he was a good guy and stayed away from all the bad stuff.......

I think Sawyer would have been a good guy if is incident did not happen. It seemed his mother truly loved him and was a good person (aside from the whole cheating thing). His circumstances pretty early on turned him bad, remember he wrote that revenge note as a young child so those dark thoughts were always in his head......

True. Americans did not technically teach Sayid to become a torturer. But they literally gave him the tools. And they had more of an influence on his torturing (it was implied what he was supposed to do with the tools) than the Iraqis did.

I also agree that it's not outrageous that Jin reverts back to being overprotective. I don't think any of us would blame him. We'll just see how far he takes it. But you have to be fair. If Charlie isn't going to do drugs because "that's not who he really was", then you have to say the same for Sawyer. Circumstances nudged Sawyer into becoming an @$$ as well. He was a child who heard his father kill his mother and then basically saw his father kill himself. Where did he go from there? How did he get there exactly? Well, we don't know for sure, but if you ask me, there's a huge chance Sawyer could've been a "normal" law-abiding citizen if that wouldn't have happened to his parents. Just like Charlie probably wouldn't have gotten into drugs if his brother hadn't taken the path as well. They both (Sawyer and Charlie) made their own choices...even though one path was more well lit for them than the other. Fair is fair.

I find it interesting that people on the island know Sayid is a torturer because he was in the Iraqi Army. But now we find out that the reason he is a torturer is because an American taught him!

I got something completely different from this scene. It seemed to me that this was after Sayid had been a torturer. This is why the Americans sent him in. I was under the impression that the Americans gave Sayid a NEW way to torcher. Rather then beat, pull nails apart, starve, etc, he would work within the mouth of whom he is trying to get to talk. When Sayid was tourturing his Iraqian buddy and he came out and had the blood on his hands I assumed Sayid had pulled out his tounge...or at least pulled on it. I got that from the spit/plyers camera shot. I do realize later on he used a similiar tool to seemingly cut off the others fingers...but I still think that Sayid new how to torture before this scene with the Americans was shot. As I said they just gave him new methods.

You have to remember that Sayid did not agree to the torture until he saw the tape of the village being gassed. I think that while he may have been leaned on to commit the torture..part of him wanted to.

Remember that his commanders sent him in to get that Iraqi girl (forgot her name) to talk about where the rebels were. So, this tells me that he certainly was a torturer already. The Americans knew this from his personnel file, and simply used him to extract the information from his former commander.

***posting as a poster not a MOD***

What I find most disturbing..and have not read it anywhere..wether he was an American, German or Iraqi..he is a traitor..pure and simple.

What would we be saying if we saw an American turn in his C.O. in wartime and torture him for information? He would be put in front of a firing squad. I was stunned he did that and did it at the snap of a finger..how did he know that tape wasn't doctored?? More proof that Sayid is a mole on the island or just someone who makes some really bad choices..?

What would we be saying if we saw an American turn in his C.O. in wartime and torture him for information? He would be put in front of a firing squad. I was stunned he did that and did it at the snap of a finger..how did he know that tape wasn't doctored?? More proof that Sayid is a mole on the island or just someone who makes some really bad choices..?

see, i think sayid in fact made a really excellent choice. when you stop thinking in terms of "american" and "iraqi", or "us" and "them" all it really boils down to is - "RIGHT" or "WRONG". right before he tortured his CO the americans gave the non-violent option - tell us where we can find our man and we wont hurt you. its only when the CO responded with "steal them and kill them, or better yet, tie a bag over your head and kill yourself" that they resorted to violence. sayid was trying to be as peaceful as possible. he was going with the lesser of two evils.

Understood..but he still turned on his country and sided with the enemy during wartime...in time of war..is there anything but "us" or "them"? He wasn't a recruit forced into this battle like so many of the troops that surrendered to a CNN camera crew..he was Republican Guard. Can you imagine a Green Beret doing the same thing?? It boggles the mind.

I appreciated your response and do see your point of view:)...

yeah i do but you still have to remember that sayid doesn't seem to have much of loyalty in his blood...
when it came to him and Nadia he would rather have let her go then kill her
also when it was Sayid and his friend in australia he would rather have let that guy die then help him
so i'm saying that sayid doesn't seem to be very loyal and i'm not surprised that he went against his commanding officer but yeah it is shocking but i would do the same thing... i must say i'm all about me instead of my country... sorry canada :(

Understood..but he still turned on his country and sided with the enemy during wartime...in time of war..is there anything but "us" or "them"? He wasn't a recruit forced into this battle like so many of the troops that surrendered to a CNN camera crew..he was Republican Guard. Can you imagine a Green Beret doing the same thing?? It boggles the mind.

I appreciated your response and do see your point of view:)...

Would I be loyal to someone who didn't value my life? Answer: No way in hell. What finally convinced Sayid to become a "traitor" was realizing the people he served were NOT on HIS side. Hard to betray someone who wasn't on your side. His commander showed nothing but contempt for him and the entire government was on the side of a few elites, not the majority of the country. Also remember, he feared for his family's safety.

He didn't want to torture Nadia so he let her go; and he started again once she was gone. He didn't want to torture anymore after he began his relationship with Shannon, and now she's dead, so he's doing his thing again.

I have to agree aswell !!

As far as Sayid being a torturer before he helped the Americans. Didn't they say they gave him new skills to bring back to the Iraqis. Don't you think that this timeline was the earliest shown and this set off his new carrer. Once you've done something that bad doesn't it get easier every time? I believe it was for his own survival that he helped the Americans and they also showed him that things weren't as black and white as he thought.

I got something completely different from this scene. It seemed to me that this was after Sayid had been a torturer. This is why the Americans sent him in. I was under the impression that the Americans gave Sayid a NEW way to torcher. Rather then beat, pull nails apart, starve, etc, he would work within the mouth of whom he is trying to get to talk. When Sayid was tourturing his Iraqian buddy and he came out and had the blood on his hands I assumed Sayid had pulled out his tounge...or at least pulled on it. I got that from the spit/plyers camera shot. I do realize later on he used a similiar tool to seemingly cut off the others fingers...but I still think that Sayid new how to torture before this scene with the Americans was shot. As I said they just gave him new methods.

I hadn't thought of the timeline. We know from his previous flashback (Nadia) that torturing was done...did Sayid do any of it, or was it one of his buddies? If Sayid was torturing then...did that flashback occur before this most recent? I thought the American guy told Sayid it was over (meaning the war)...did I misinterpret? Was the other flashback a completely different war? Yes, it's no secret...I'm clueless with this stuff!

Either way, to me, it seem implied that it was the first torture for Sayid. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. At least until someone changes my mind! :biggrin:


***posting as a poster not a MOD***

What I find most disturbing..and have not read it anywhere..wether he was an American, German or Iraqi..he is a traitor..pure and simple.

What would we be saying if we saw an American turn in his C.O. in wartime and torture him for information? He would be put in front of a firing squad. I was stunned he did that and did it at the snap of a finger..how did he know that tape wasn't doctored?? More proof that Sayid is a mole on the island or just someone who makes some really bad choices..?
Understood..but he still turned on his country and sided with the enemy during wartime...in time of war..is there anything but "us" or "them"? He wasn't a recruit forced into this battle like so many of the troops that surrendered to a CNN camera crew..he was Republican Guard. Can you imagine a Green Beret doing the same thing?? It boggles the mind.

I appreciated your response and do see your point of view:)...

You know, when I was watching, the traitor thing crossed my mind too. But I also thought about the video and how Sayid realized, as someone else said, the other guy wasn't on "his" side anyway. I know...doesn't make him less of a traitor. But my gut tells me that this kind of thing goes on a lot more than we realize.

And kgosal had a good point. Sayid doesn't seem to be a loyal person, period. Except to himself and perhaps Nadia. I hadn't thought of that either.

Anyone who has seen the videos of Iraqi torture squads cutting the tongues out of men's mouths and executing women during the halftime show of soccer games for perceived flirting knows that Iraqis needed no help by Americans to learn torture techniques.

As to the traitor bit.....if a Green Beret at Fort Campbell had just witnessed a video of his own superiors gassing his hometown it's a pretty sure bet they would do just as Sayid did. Comparing Iraq and America is like comparing grapes and onions.

True, they are reverting back to their old ways, but they aren't completely the same person, with some hints of changes. The only people who aren't reverting back are the men of faith, Locke and Eko.

If Eko reverted back, he'd be a drug warlord; if Locke reverted back he'd be a
person with little hope and only fantasies (he has hope now, but is still
enjoying fantasies).

I don't think Sayid was ever a real Iraqi in his heart. When the opp came for
him to escape, he obviously took it. What was there to be loyal to any
way? he saw what the country and the leaders were about, he was
just stuck in it, like Locke was stuck in that wheel chair, until a form
of liberation came upon him.

He blames the others for Shannon's death, because of them messing with
the lostaways, freaking them out, threatening them, attacking them. He
took it out on the person he believes is indeed one of the others (and I
think the dude is "one of them" as well).

I think Sayid just moved too fast. It was the wrong moment to find things
out, but it was done. Now maybe Charlie will recognize the guy, or
Claire will. Balloon Boy's story has too many holes in it.

True, they are reverting back to their old ways, but they aren't completely the same person, with some hints of changes. The only people who aren't reverting back are the men of faith, Locke and Eko.

I'm not convinced that Locke isn't changing back. He seems a little less assertive/confident. We'll see.

The episode where Sayid is told to torture the girl is much more recent then when he tortured his CO. It seems to me that by torturing his CO he realized he had this "gift" and changed specialities. He obviously was in communications at one time because he can fix just about anything electronic...torturing came later.