Greetings

My first post.

A nagging question: in episode WHITE RABBIT Jack finds his father's coffin. I was under the impression that there was NO BODY inside. I even re-watched the episode to make sure.

However, I cannot seem to find anyone who has asked this Q before and now I am starting to think I willfully did not see the body.

The topic has not been touched in episodes since, and it truly makes more narrative sense if Jack DID find the body, as it would confirm that he was simply hallucinating, albeit "puposefully" as indicated by Locke, the "purpose" being the discovery of the cave.

Can anyone enlighten please? Was there or was there not a body in the coffin?

Cheers all

(Apologies in adavnce, but I am going to post this in other sections as well, incase it gets overlooked here.)

Greetings

My first post.

Greetings to you too and welcome to the best website around. Happy posting. :laugh:


A nagging question: in episode WHITE RABBIT Jack finds his father's coffin.* I was under the impression that there was NO BODY inside.* I even re-watched the episode to make sure.
However, I cannot seem to find anyone who has asked this Q before and now I am starting to think I willfully did not see the body.*
The topic has not been touched in episodes since, and it truly makes more narrative sense if Jack DID find the body, as it would confirm that he was simply hallucinating, albeit "purposefully" as indicated by Locke, the "purpose" being the discovery of the cave.

Can anyone enlighten please?* Was there or was there not a body in the coffin?

I believe there was no body in this particulate coffin ever. I also do not believe this is the coffin Jack's father was suppose to be in. Jack destroyed the coffin because of his mental anguish and love for his father.

Well, I believe that the coffin did indeed have Jack's fathers body in it..but because he couldnt get on the plane with it due to the weight..he decided to leave the body in Aus. and just take the coffin back..that way he could give his mother some type of closure. He already had a hearse waiting at the airport and already had the funeral planned, if I remember correctly, so he most likely decided he needed to come back with something, thus the empty coffin. :)

but of course..I could be wrong..

:lol2:

I was also under the impression that they refused to board his father and that it was a random coffin. It still creeped me out when he checked to see if it was empty or not. lol

I don't know if it was a random coffin...I think it was probably Jack's fathers, but the body just wasn't inside. (Obviously)

OK I've thought some more about this. When we see Jack at the airport trying to convince the airline to board his father, I suppose that he was about to take off. So his father is in the coffin ready to go (so to speak lol). So I am sure that he didn't ask them to remove his dad from the coffin, and take the coffin with him? That'd be a little weird, no?

I think the only explanation that makes sense is that that was his father's coffin, and his father was supposed to be inside.* Like SpookyGal said, his father's body was in the coffin when Jack was at the ticket counter.* It's not like he could just go outside, tip over the coffin, and dump his father's body in the airport parking lot. It also doesn't make sense that Jack would get on the plane but leave the coffin behind. After all, that's the whole reason he was in Australia in the first place.

From a story point of view, the whole point of the body being missing is that it denies Jack the closure he wanted.* Remember, in the flashback Jack has when he first sees the coffin, he was at the ticket counter talking about how he had to bury his father right away because he needed it to be over.* When he finds the coffin in the wreckage, he thinks this is his chance to finish what he started and put his father's haunting behind him -- and then the body is missing, taking away his last chance.* Jack gets upset at his father "abandoning" him yet again and attacks the coffin -- ironically, maybe giving him closure after all.* He's finally able to release his feelings and escape from the uncertainty that his father had ingrained in him.

Of course, the implication then is that he may actually have been physically seeing his father, not a hallucination or a vision.* Just adds to the creepiness of the island.

I see that there's an upcoming Jack episode called "All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues," with the actor who played Jack's father listed as a guest star, so I have a feeling the haunting isn't over.

I think it was his dad's coffin and the body was in there when they took off, but once the plane crashed the body fell out. Much like Vincent, who had to have been in a kennel in baggage but broke free when the plane "landed."

Or maybe The Others are all waywared souls that need a physical body to return hence the abduction of pregnant Claire.

The coffin may not have been Jacks, although he did seem to recognise it so it probably was.

I thought it was standard practice to send bodies in a secure lock box. i know he was going straight to a funeral as soon as he touched down, but the coffin wasn't secure. His dad probably fell out on his way down.

Have you noticed that there was only one dead body in the cockpit section? What happened to all the other cadavers? Perhaps they've all been removed for experimentation by the scientists (if any of them are alive).

I just checked and there are at least two bodies (not counting the pilot and whoever fell out of the cockpit when Jack opened the door). One is black and near the opening at the back )Charlie grabs his leg) and the other is white on the opposite side of the isle near the cockpit.

It is interesting that there are so few still in their seats. Maybe first class was empty? It could explain why Shannon thought they could get an upgrade and was angry when her request was refused.

His dad probably fell out on his way down.



Maybe it's just as well he's marooned on the island. Can you imagine him trying to explain that one to his mom?

Alane

Trueogre pointed out something that has bothered me. How was Jack able to open the coffin so easily? they seal them by nailing or something. If they are shipping or burying it you should not be bale to just open it.

Also, did you notice how easily Jack was able to smash it? He must not have sprung for the mohogany model. Plywood, maybe? After all, he wasn't that fond of dear old dad. ;)

Also, did you notice how easily Jack was able to smash it? He must not have sprung for the mohogany model. Plywood, maybe? After all, he wasn't that fond of dear old dad.* ;)


Maybe it was pressed wood. The formaldehyde level in particleboard is supposed to be fairly high, so maybe he was saving on embalming costs that way, too. ;)

Seriously, though, I guess him smashing the casket was supposed to be about the symbolism of the act and we are to engage in a suspension of belief in how easily he accomplished it.

Alane

Coffins are usually crated before being shipped. I can't picture how the body could have fallen out without both the crate and coffin being destroyed.

The scene really didn't make much sense. I guess this is one of those times when we're supposed to suspend our disbelief for the sake of the story. <g>

Templeton

Coffins are usually crated before being shipped.* I can't picture how the body could have fallen out without both the crate and coffin being destroyed.

The scene really didn't make much sense.* I guess this is one of those times when we're supposed to suspend our disbelief for the sake of the story. <g>

Templeton


Totally. As it's been stated elsewhere on this board, bodies are not shipped in coffins, and coffins are not shipped alone "in real life". They would be in a crate, as someone else said here. My belief was that it was just a generic coffin that was being shipped and Jack's Dad didn't make the flight, but I think it was Javi (?) here that said that, yup, Jack's Dad was on the plane. I think that was in the VIP board a couple of months ago.

Open top coffins are used for show purposes only. So maybe Jack bought both his father in a crate and a coffin. Coffin being separate, but still you would have to box up the coffin anyway because of the lid. It has to be secured and you wouldn't send a mahogany coffin as is anyway, you don't want to ruin it before the funeral. It would have been cheaper for him to crate up his father in a metal lock box (aren't they the usual standard?) and then get his mother to buy the coffin on her side, so when he gets to the US, you transfer the body into the coffin.

Anyway I just thought of something else. If Jack said as soon as he touched down he was going to the funeral to bury his dad, why buy an open top coffin? Wouldn't you buy a closed one? I hope you know what I mean. There are coffins with two doors or one. Sometimes you have a complete casket open for full body show or half a lid open for a top view. It seems to me if Jack is burying his father quickly, then wouldn't he have bought a cheaper model like a one lid coffin?

But how much of what Jack saw wasn't in his mind? He sees his dad, but he's not there. Perhaps the coffin is also not there.

Perhaps the others have taken it, induced some freaky zombie fluid into his limp body and now he works as a slave for the others. ;)

If Jack said as soon as he touched down he was going to the funeral to bury his dad, why buy an open top coffin?* Wouldn't you buy a closed one?*

You can have an open casket viewing directly before the bureal.

I think it was all in Jack's mind (seeing his Dad and smashing the coffin).* Otherwise why wouldn't anyone else have pointed it out when they moved to the caves?

When i saw that i was thinking "where is his dad" but then i thought about considering he keeps appearing and disappearing, the coffin was definetly empty, maybe the ghost of his father is wondering around the island..or perhaps..maybe he just imagined it considering he kept thinking about his father, im gonna have to go back and look at all of that again, gather some theories, my minds a bit blank today, lol

When i saw that i was thinking "where is his dad" but then i thought about considering he keeps appearing and disappearing, the coffin was definetly empty, maybe the ghost of his father is wondering around the island..or perhaps..maybe he just imagined it considering he kept thinking about his father, im gonna have to go back and look at all of that again, gather some theories, my minds a bit blank today, lol


I can't decide if the coffin finding/smashing was supposed to be purposely vague and open to various interpretations or if* we're simply missing the writer's intent on this one.

Alane

I know you can have open top, but the funerals I've been to and both were cremations, the caskets was closed.

Would you want to see someone in a coffin before they're buried? I mean I'm used to closed, I want to remember them as I do when they were living. Not that constant picture of them in a casket waiting to be buried or burnt.

I wonder if Jack wrote anything for the funeral. We don't even know if Jack is an only child, there could be other siblings we don't know about.

It would be interesting if he had wrote a speech for the ceremony.

I know you can have open top, but the funerals I've been to and both were cremations, the caskets was closed.

Would you want to see someone in a coffin before they're buried?* I mean I'm used to closed, I want to remember them as I do when they were living.* Not that constant picture of them in a casket waiting to be buried or burnt.

I wonder if Jack wrote anything for the funeral.* We don't even know if Jack is an only child, there could be other siblings we don't know about.

It would be interesting if he had wrote a speech for the ceremony.


Ever see "Six Feet Under"?

Not religiously...why?

Heh-heh, not "religiously"! THAT'S FUNNY :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

Seriously, it's a good show and they have all sorts of different funeral arrangements for all their customers, typically with a "viewing" before the actual funeral where people can come in and look at their loved one and pay respects. Then there's their Wall of Coffins...all coffins, all types of coffins, get your red-hot coffins here! I've been to plenty of funerals, but I had no idea how varied the "funeral industry" can be!

Heh-heh, not "religiously"!* THAT'S FUNNY* :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:
Seriously, it's a good show and they have all sorts of different funeral arrangements for all their customers, typically with a "viewing" before the actual funeral where people can come in and look at their loved one and pay respects.*


I've been to services like this. I didn't think it was particularly unusual.

I remember one funeral where the pastor had the service with eulogies in a chapel at the cemetery. We went through the line and viewed the body afterward. And then the casket was closed and those who wished followed the pallbearers out to the plot for the burial.

Alane

I've been to services like this. I didn't think it was particularly unusual.

I remember one funeral where the pastor had the service with eulogies in a chapel at the cemetery. We went through the line and viewed the body afterward. And then the casket was closed and those who wished followed the pallbearers out to the plot for the burial.

Alane


Heck, I thought that's the way all funerals were until I finally went to a closed casket funeral. Now I've been to two, but I still think the "viewing" is more typical.

I know you can have open top, but the funerals I've been to and both were cremations, the caskets was closed.

Would you want to see someone in a coffin before they're buried?* I mean I'm used to closed, I want to remember them as I do when they were living.* Not that constant picture of them in a casket waiting to be buried or burnt.

I wonder if Jack wrote anything for the funeral.* We don't even know if Jack is an only child, there could be other siblings we don't know about.

It would be interesting if he had wrote a speech for the ceremony.


In my background, it is customary to view the body before the burial. Believe me, it happens all the time in places where you are not, and it is accepted and part of tradition. Just because you are used to closed doesnt mean everyone does it that way. One generation before me they actually laid out bodies in the home, open casket for 3 days!!! It may seem strange to you, but things like this happen

I know you can have open top, but the funerals I've been to and both were cremations, the caskets was closed.



If they were cremations, what bodies are you talking about? Of course the caskets were closed, you were in the presence of ashes!! They dont usually lay them out in an ashtray for viewing

Back from the funeral home to the lsland and Jack and Jack's pop --

I think Dad was in the box and the fact that Jack's seen him on the island and the box is empty are too coincidental.

But, I'm not a big zombie-plot guy either.

Still, Charlie almost died (or did & revived), Rose almost died (or did & revived), Locke's legs revived, Jack's dad revived (at least to Jack's eyes), the pilot appeared dead but revived, Ethan looks dead but isn't..................there seems something to this island-as-life-giving-force concept.

Gotta think we're gonna run into Joanna...??

It's not unusual to have the body in the coffin present in the chapel during the funeral when it's going to be cremated after the service. But I've also been to a lot of services where there was no body present because it had already been cremated.

Basically, I've seen it all -- coffin open with viewing hours, coffin closed with viewing hours, coffin at service with burial following, coffin at service with cremation following, no coffin at service. I don't think I've ever seen an urn of ashes at a funeral, but probably some folks do it that way, too. I've been to some ash scattering ceremonies, but that's usually after the funeral (i.e. only the close family members present).

Me, I'm donating my body to a medical school where it can do somebody some good after I'm done with it.

Cheers,
Templeton

Charlie almost died (or did & revived), Rose almost died (or did & revived), Locke's legs revived, Jack's dad revived (at least to Jack's eyes), the pilot appeared dead but revived, Ethan looks dead but isn't..................there seems something to this island-as-life-giving-force concept.*

Gotta think we're gonna run into Joanna...??


You forgot Claire's baby.

I never said the bodies were burnt with the lids open ::)

I know viewings are normal in some places. But some places don't have them. There are even places that bury you in a casket shaped like you job drescription. IE Fisherman-Fish shaped casket, Taxi Driver- Mercedes shaped coffin, Banana worker-Banana shaped coffin etc...

I know that close family members get to view the body before the funeral, but the funerals that I've been to have been closed and only cremations.

...Clair's baby? I didn't know it had died? Are you talking about when it stopped moving?

It's common that during a trauma the body goes into GI JOE mode for pregnant ladies. So perhaps it was a delayed aftershock for the kid. You know curling up into a ball for protection.

"...Clair's baby? I didn't know it had died? Are you talking about when it stopped moving?"

Yes. It fits in with the scheme of Rose died, was brought back, Charlie died, was brought back, ect. of the post above. Claire's baby didn't move after the crash until she ate some of the sea urchin a day or two later. I don't necessarily buy into this theory, but I can't discount it until I see further information to lead us to believe this is the case one way or another.

Hmm. She did go into some sort of labour when she was on the beach. She just needed to calm down. The baby stopped moving when she belly flopped onto her stomach when the engine went off. She said she hadn't felt the baby move since yesterday (when she spoke to Shannon).

I can only assume she meant when she fell on her stomach. But if the scientists are still around on the island, then a baby is going to be interesting for them.

As someone reffered to, Jack could have decided to leave the dead body in Australia and only to take the coffin with him to satisfy his mother. But maybe, let's think about it, that the plane crashed down from a very high altitude. Maybe the coffin opened while smashing to the ground and closed again when it lies quiet under the wreckages.
I admit that's not a suitable arguement :laugh:

I think everyone is missing something obvious only to us who have seen all the episodes, and it's this

SPOILERS



Locke made Boone hallucinate with some kind of salve to help him kick his Shannon habit. After Locke saves Jack, he gives him 'water' he was collecting in the jungle, then gives him the speech about finding what he's looking for, to become the leader they all need. The title of the show ep is "White Rabbit", and besides meaning Alice in Wonderland, it's also a term used for drugs.

I think Locke spiked jack's water and the ending, finding his dad's coffin empty, was the first Locke induced hallucination.

I don't remember Locke giving Jack any water. All I saw was that Locke filled up the bottle and put it in his backpack. I think Locke was trying to say that it is much more than a hallucination. I am with the theory that the Dad fell out of the coffin. At least that's what I hope happened.

The creators have confirmed that Christian Shephard was dead and his body was on the plane.

Do you have a link or can you quote this...or is it in the 'long list? Some people on another thread are looking for it....

I have to put $.02 worth of my theory about Christian here. I think he may be actually on the island. He may dead, but animated. Danielle said the Others were dead. The translation was a little funny. Maybe she meant dead as in "Night of the Living....". There are lots of zombie theories out there.

Locke didn't dose Jack with any water as far as I can tell. Locke also says that maybe it's not an hallucination. And Jack actually touched his father and he turns to look at him.

Just before he discovers the caves, he hears the clink of ice in a glass. At the same time WE see his father walk in the background. BEHIND Jack. *If it's an hallucination, why would they show it just to us. Jack wasn't looking in that direction. The clink of the ice would have been enough for him to get up and then he could have glimpsed him when he turns around. I think they show him walking back there to show that he's real. It's no coincidence. And the shoes!!! Money look at the shoes. The fact that his father is playing the role of the White Rabbit is obvious. Dead people don't wear shoes!!!

I think when Danielle said 'the others are dead' she meant the other members of her team"

However when Jack is in the jungle there is a moment when someone walks behind him...and he turns. We don't see who or what it is. I have wondered who or what that was.

I think when Danielle said 'the others are dead' she meant the other members of her team"

But the translation says "they're dead. they're all dead. HE killed them all."
we find out later that she killed the crew. So she has to be talking about the others There may be some issues with syntax on the use of 'dead', but I'm convinced she wasn't talking about her crew.

However when Jack is in the jungle there is a moment when someone walks behind him...and he turns. We don't see who or what it is. I have wondered who or what that was.


I'm gonna have run it on slow-mo to make sure. But I think it's Christian.

elfdream, I'll try to find the quote. If I dont already have it at the LLL, I need to put it there. I don't have time tonight.

I think everyone is missing something obvious only to us who have seen all the episodes, and it's this

SPOILERS



Locke made Boone hallucinate with some kind of salve to help him kick his Shannon habit. After Locke saves Jack, he gives him 'water' he was collecting in the jungle, then gives him the speech about finding what he's looking for, to become the leader they all need. The title of the show ep is "White Rabbit", and besides meaning Alice in Wonderland, it's also a term used for drugs.

I think Locke spiked jack's water and the ending, finding his dad's coffin empty, was the first Locke induced hallucination.



What's funny is that I thought something along these lines. However, Locke didn't have to spike anything or slip Jack something in order for him to go on a vision quest of sorts: he was already there; he was having one. He was tired, he was overwhelmed, he was exasperated, not to mention writhing with guilt...the least he could do is hallucinate in that situation :lol2:! At this point Locke is still high on Island Love and thinks everyone else needs to have a little bit of a walkabout in their own ways, in their own time. Locke comes across Jack and he just nudges Jack to follow the vision. For Charlie, he had to deny him the heroin for Charlie to go on his quest. Boone needed an extra push to losen his attachment to Shannon, plus he was young and cynical- that boy HAD to be dosed. Until Boone, Locke hadn't been so overt in his application of "guidance" because the people he helped (as they came across his path- another part of the equation) already had a head start.

I looked in a few places and can't find the quote that I referred to (re: creator confirmation that Christian Shephard was dead and on the plane.)

I am absolutely certain that I read it either in an interview or in the VIP section here at the fuselage.

Someone found a reference to it a TV guide article..but it wasn't any kind of confirmation from the creators.

I KNOW I read it as well (and many others have said they saw it ) and I have read every single post Javi wrote here and while it was amusing I can't find the quote. Either we are all having a mass hallucination-it was another member of the team- or it was in an magazine article we haven't been able to find yet..

Or someone removed the post...(cue the themes from The Twilight Zone and the X-files ;) )

I watched the ep again last night and slowed the scene w/Jack before he discovers the cave.

The person in the background is wearing dark colors and you can't see their head. Christian has a pretty big head :laugh:, so if I could see the full body it would be solid proof.

The person DOES seem to be carrying a water bottle or at least something light colored that is about the size of a water bottle in their left hand. I'm not sure if Christian was a lefty or not.

I still don't see a reason for them to show us a figure BEHIND Jack as part of his hallucination. Even if he was on his 'walkabout' he wasn't in a complete dream state. No other hallucination occurs when he isn't focusing on it. He was looking at the ground and crying about ID'ng his father in the morgue. We hear the clink of ice and see the figure walking behind him. It's not a continuos scene. There is a cut when he stands. The person didn't have to be in the scene. That was for us. Something is going on with Christian. *Does anyone remember if Joanna's body ever washes ashore?

elfdream LOL. I'm glad I'm not the only one 100% certain of having read this before.

Joanna's body was never seen again on the show.

**do do do**
***creepy music***

Has anyone thought about the line "You don't have what it takes."?
Jack is told this by Sawyer (not verbatim, but close) when he had shot the marshal and by his father.
I know in both of those contexts it was meaning he didn't have the 'stones' to do what it took or to except the consequences of failure.

But how about this, Locke said the island will give you things but you have to give it something in return. In that context, "You don't have what it takes." takes a different meaning all together. Since we know he doesn't have his father's body, could that be what this line is referring to? Maybe the island took Christian's body already. So in reality Jack doesn't have what it takes. The coffin is empty, the island has taken his father.

I watched the ep again last night and slowed the scene w/Jack before he discovers the cave.

The person in the background is wearing dark colors and you can't see their head. Christian has a pretty big head :laugh:, so if I could see the full body it would be solid proof.

The person DOES seem to be carrying a water bottle or at least something light colored that is about the size of a water bottle in their left hand. I'm not sure if Christian was a lefty or not.

I still don't see a reason for them to show us a figure BEHIND Jack as part of his hallucination. Even if he was on his 'walkabout' he wasn't in a complete dream state. No other hallucination occurs when he isn't focusing on it. He was looking at the ground and crying about ID'ng his father in the morgue. We hear the clink of ice and see the figure walking behind him. It's not a continuos scene. There is a cut when he stands. The person didn't have to be in the scene. That was for us. Something is going on with Christian. *Does anyone remember if Joanna's body ever washes ashore?


I remember that scene specifically for that reason. There was the one shot of Jack looking the other way, no noise from the figure, and you could clearly see him standing behind Jack. Tells me that we were not viewing Jack's hallucination. Something else is definitely going on.

I'm sure we'll find out for sure if Christian's body was on the flight eventually. I'll believe that it was until further proof is there.

Just before he discovers the caves, he hears the clink of ice in a glass. At the same time WE see his father walk in the background. BEHIND Jack. *If it's an hallucination, why would they show it just to us. Jack wasn't looking in that direction. The clink of the ice would have been enough for him to get up and then he could have glimpsed him when he turns around. I think they show him walking back there to show that he's real. It's no coincidence. And the shoes!!! Money look at the shoes. The fact that his father is playing the role of the White Rabbit is obvious. Dead people don't wear shoes!!!


Roger...that is an EXCELLENT observation! I never thought about the perspectives. We see the father, but not Jack, to show us it is Christian, in some form or another, and not a true hallucination. I can believe this one...but what "form" is Christian in in this scene? ???

http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=7871.0 There's more about this around the boards.