All this "Jack is annoying" or "Jack needs to be put in his place talk" seems to be coming from people who miss the point. Jack never asked to be placed into the leadership position, but was forced to when it was obvious they weren't getting anywhere without one. But, he eventually accepted it and is constantly doing what he feels is right for the group. Let's not forget the facts that he is the only doctor on the island and the person everyone turns to when they have a problem. He has got a lot on his plate, as he feels responsible for keeping everyone safe, healthy, and in line. He deserves a little more slack than the viewers seem to be giving him, as sometimes leaders have to do what is unpopular if they feel it is what is best for the group. Or maybe I just never got over Party of Five getting cancelled.

heh. I agree. Said the exact same thing in a few of my posts (except the Party of Five thing....never watched it). Personally I don't like Jack, but he was pretty much put in that position by the other castaways, so gotta at least defend him on that part...

It's very interesting the direction he's taken, and I have to agree with you, Harry. The poor guy just isn't handling it all that well...and as we've seen, he has a hard time letting go of just about anything (where have I heard that before?). But I think it's pretty clear he's doing the best he can. It's just a matter of Jack and several other characters finally coming down to earth as things settle in for the long haul.

Good points all...But I don't understand the need for an entire thread being started for this when there are at least 6 threads already discussing this issue!! I hope the mods will see fit to merge some of these redundant threads into one.:frown:

I'm with you Happy Harry. Jack definitely gets ragged on a lot, both by people on the island and the fans. Jack didn't choose to be leader; it's clear in WR that he was made the leader by everyone. And in my opinion, he's risen to the challenge admirably. Sure, he's made mistakes, but he's human - that's to be expected. And it's not like anyone else on the island is perfect and has pleased everyone all the time. All things considered, I think Jack's done a better job than anyone else could have, mistakes and all.

It's like Jack himself said, everyone wants him to be the leader until he makes a decision they don't like. I think that applies to both the other survivors and to us Lost fans. Jack is judged harsher than anyone else.

Good points all...But I don't understand the need for an entire thread being started for this when there are at least 6 threads already discussing this issue!! I hope the mods will see fit to merge some of these redundant threads into one.:frown:

This is specific thread about cutting Jack some slack and defending his actions. It's much different than "Jack was annoying tonight" ;). I don't think those two threads would be compatible...lol.

But on the subject at hand...I agree completely that people should give Jack a break. What was he supposed to do in that situation? Someone he KNOWS tortures people on occasion is locked in a room with someone who claimes not be an 'other'. I know that Jack is not technically the boss of Sayid...but in a situation like that EVERYONE has the right to step in on moral grounds. If you see something that you don't agree with going down...something potentially harmful and dangerous, you SHOULD protest and try to stop it.

And while I actually think Sayid was right about Henry being an other...I'm glad that Jack didn't ignore his own conscience!

Good points all...But I don't understand the need for an entire thread being started for this when there are at least 6 threads already discussing this issue!! I hope the mods will see fit to merge some of these redundant threads into one.:frown:
I just started one before I saw this..sorry. But it deals more specifically with certain things.

It's not good enough to have replies in threads entitled Jack is annoying because all those draw is dissent & the posts in his favor get lost therein.

Thank you! I completely agree! Jack gets WAY too much crap for trying to do the right thing, and for doing nothing more than being a little bossy along the way. And yet all the girls still swoon over "bad boy" Sawyer, who's an a$$ just for the sake of being an a$$.

Jack wasn't forced to be the leader. He could've fought it. I don't see his behaviour now (island) any different than in the flashbacks. Clearly, he doesn't WANT to be the leader (island or flashbacks), but I believe he truly can't stop himself. He can't help it. He takes the lead (yes, takes - however reluctant on the surface) wherever he goes and he hates that about himself. Almost like an addiction. That's how I see it.

As for Sawyer, I think that people feel a bit more sympathy (pity) toward him because of the circumstances that made him who he is. Or who he THINKS he is. He CAN help it, he just doesn't realize it. At least that's what I think part of his following, compared to Jack. And I'm sure the dimples don't hurt! ;) (For the record, neither one are my type!)

Jack is an educated person who doesn't seem to be thinking.

For the record, I think Jack had the right idea to object to the torture. But its the WAY he did it that I didn't like. Instead of hysterically attacking lock, he should try to reason with him, suggest an alternative etc. Clearly the "Other" guy needed to be interrogated. Surely a doctor with the medicines on board could think of a less violent method to get info out of a prisoner.

~F

I've never been a big fan of Jack but I liked him this episode because of how he stood up to Locke. Locke has been acting strange and can be a super freak sometimes, plus he keeps switching the combination every time someone says to, Jack can't trust him!

Good for Jack stickin' it to Locke!
Boo to the Charlie puncher!

It seems like every episode now we need a "cut him some slack" thread. It's ridiculous. It's like people sit around waiting for him to do something just so that they can turn around and bash on it. :smash:

I don't know what kind of reaction people expected from him. Sayid was beating a man who may be perfectly innocent. Jack is a doctor who took an oath to help people no matter if they're a friend or the enemy. Just connect the dots and it's easy to see why Jack wanted to get into the armory.

As for his tactics: Locke and Sayid threw the first punch by deceiving him. He had every right to feel frustrated and didn't turn aggressive until he knew Sayid was turning Henry into mulch.

Plus, yelling and shoving makes for a lot better TV than sitting around and talking things out. ;)

If Jack had sat and talked with Locke/Sayid then we would have people complaining that he was a wimp and should have stood up to them in a more physical manner. They guy cannot win. He's damned if he does..damned if he doesn't.

I thought limiting it to annoying was cutting Jack some slack:biggrin:

One of the curses of being a leader is, "damned if he does..damned if he doesn't".

All of the strong characters on Lost are also flawed characters. I have at times been annoyed by most of them. I was not annoyed with Jack in this episode. However his position of leadership makes him a valid target for criticism. Who cares if a bland secondary character like Bernard makes a mistake? But a front and center character such as Jack or Locke or Charlie or Kate or Sawyer etc If they fail to live up to our expectations or to their own standards - then boo hiss.

While Jack may have presented as being a "reluctant" leader---the fact is, he is a doctor. This fact alone indicates that Jack has chosen to take a leadership role in his life. After all, the surgeon doesn't usually ask the nurses what he or she should do. Jack presented as a reluctant leader---but he seems to have had no real problem taking the role. I think he doth protest too loudly. His general disdain for Locke is surprising given the fact that he would be dead if not for Locke-----or perhaps the great leader would have figured out a way to lift himself up off of the side of that cliff he was on is Season 1. Additionally, hypocrisy is not the best trait in a leader. At almost every turn he contradicts his own edicts------Locke, you've been out here a for weeks diggin up this hatch and didn't tell me--yet he sure didn't mention the handguns. He was about to break his own rule and get the guns without telling Locke---but he was sure pissed at Locke for making a decision about the "armory" without his approval and foreknowledge. Locke was right when he said "who are we to tell Michael what he can and can't do?" Jack feels no one should be able to tell him what he can and can't do---but no one else gets that privilege. That is the worst kind of leadership. I am not saying Jack is a bad guy---I believe he wants to protect the group---but I also think he has a God Complex. That's not unusual----many "leaders" do. The simple fact remains-----WHY SHOULD ANYONE HAVE TO TAKE ORDERS FROM ANYONE ON THIS ISLAND? Aside from some basic agreements about how to be citizens on the island (which should be somewhat democratically decided upon)---people should be able to do as they please. Who is Jack to constantly be grabbing people and shoving them up against a wall?

I agree with everything you said. And about this thread getting merged. There are also like 3 other threads about how annoying Jack is. About since he is leader he will get criticized I agree. Every president has. But I guess it'd just gets annoying after so much of it. :biggrin:

I am not saying Jack is a bad guy---I believe he wants to protect the group---but I also think he has a God Complex. That's not unusual----many "leaders" do.

Then Jack - the DOCTOR - has a double dose of "God Complex"! Not saying ALL doctors do, but they are known for that particular complex!

But if he does have the "God complex" why would he have said "I can't do this, I can't be leader. What if I fail?" to Kate?

He is still needled by his fathers assertions that "he didn't have what it takes." The problem is, his father intended those comments to make him stronger-----but stubborn and strong aren't necessarily the same thing. Jack, like most humans, is a complex person. He is also the hero of the show---or I believe he will be. Still, might does not make right. His attempts at intimidating Locke have grown tiresome. I wish that Sayid had told him, upon being grabbed, "don't lay your hands on me again. We found this guy---when you find someone in the jungle, you do whatever you want with them"

I agree with this thread even though im not the biggest Jack fan. I personally think that Jack was forced into the leadership position as everyone looked up to him and expected him to have all the answers, and even though he wasnt the best of leaders he was still quite good and now people like Locke and Sawyer are trying to undermine his leadership and he is reacting to it badly, which is why he is being a bit annoying I think.
Although what I cant accept is the way he treated Kate after the episode the hunting party. I think that was very low and Kate didnt deserve it at all.

Because when you have the God Complex, deep down, you know you're not really God...but you're afraid of everyone else finding out that you're not God either. Fear of failure = fear of being found out as being a mere mortal.

Well I'm not gonna get into a Kate/Jack convo from hunting party but I think he treated her that way because of the kiss the way she left after. So he reacted by shutting her out. Ok back to the subject. Lol

Anyway, Jacks dad was trying to make him stronger with the you're not good enough attitude and I think it worked somewhat, but Jack doesn't know it.

Is the reason so many people find Jack annoying is because he gets so emotional when things go as he doesn't think they should? You almost need an umbrella whenever Jack is on screen, as he cries more than any other man I know. Are you people faulting him because he is not the stoic, unbreakable leader you all think a leader should be? Perhaps the standard for leadership has been set a wee bit too high by the viewers.

Because when you have the God Complex, deep down, you know you're not really God...but you're afraid of everyone else finding out that you're not God either. Fear of failure = fear of being found out as being a mere mortal.
God Complex to my knowledge is feeling as if you're above everyone in some manner & you are utilizing that power as a validation of your ego. This has not been Jack, imo.

I think Christian is a good i.e, because he did his job as a doctor in order to have the God-like ability of holding life in his hands. You can tell in how he said "this job is all about the greater good" to Jack &his total disregard for his patients in being willing to operate drunk & give false comfort to their spouses.

There's a distinction, imo, between using your special gifts responsibly for the benefit of humanity as opposed to doing what you do out of reaping power. If this were not the case, every cop, doctor, & teacher who has more knowledge/expertise than others would have a God complex which we know isn't the case.

Jack's character from the first day has been about the powerlessness he has felt & emotional torment when he can't help ppl. "I don't have what it takes, I'll fail, I can't help them". He's a person who inherently wants to help others because he internalizes their fear & pain. His first instinct is to jump into action as a result. This doesn't mean that he doesn't sometimes overestimate what he can do. That's is different to me than though believing he is somehow "better" or more special. I think this is further supported by his lack of his concern for his personal safety or well being.

Jack never asked to be placed into the leadership position, but was forced to when it was obvious they weren't getting anywhere without one. But, he eventually accepted it and is constantly doing what he feels is right for the group.

The problem with that is, he was never elected leader either. That is why I can fully sympathize with people like Sawyer who feel like everybody is blindly following Jack. For what? I loved Sawyer's speech at the end of The Long Con for that very reason.

Also, I agreee that Jack mostly does what he feels is right for the group, but that line appears to get fuzzy sometimes when Kate is involved. Having knowledge that Kate was a fugitive may have been something some other people had a right to know, but he didn't tell anyone. Bringing Kate rather than Sawyer to rescue Michael in The Hunting Party seemed more prudent but he didn't. Why? My guess is he was punishing her because she was spending so much time with Sawyer.

Overall, I think he may be the best person they have to lead the group but if he doesn't start really involving other people in major decisions he's going to have a big problem.

The problem with that is, he was never elected leader either. That is why I can fully sympathize with people like Sawyer who feel like everybody is blindly following Jack. For what? I loved Sawyer's speech at the end of The Long Con for that very reason.

Also, I agreee that Jack mostly does what he feels is right for the group, but that line appears to get fuzzy sometimes when Kate is involved. Having knowledge that Kate was a fugitive may have been something some other people had a right to know, but he didn't tell anyone. Bringing Kate rather than Sawyer to rescue Michael in The Hunting Party seemed more prudent but he didn't. Why? My guess is he was punishing her because she was spending so much time with Sawyer.

Overall, I think he may be the best person they have to lead the group but if he doesn't start really involving other people in major decisions he's going to have a big problem.
If Jack was not essentially "elected" lines like "I'm not a leader" "Yet they all treat you like one" "A leader can't lead til he knows where he's going" "Everyone wants me to be a leader until I make a decision they don't like" would be non-sensical..Ppl kept coming to him for answers & holding him accountable for everything. They followed him to the caves, listened to him vs. Locke/Kate/Sayid in WR, waited for him to tell them what to do in EX & MOFMOS..Imo, it's through his actions he has upheld his respect because he's proven many times over he puts everyone ahead of himself..We've seen him confer w/ppl many times on decisions & for their expertise.

Sawyer had been jealous of Jack since the 1st day "Whatever you say doc, you're the hero", "That's what you do, fix everything up all nice." He didn't care about island politics until he felt mad...If others truly had issue being under Jack's leadership 50 ppl could have impeached him long before now.

Certainly when it comes to Kate I'd agree Jack makes exception. However, she isn't the only person he has kept secrets for...He also has a long history or being concerned for her safety & has been respectful to her feelings for Sawyer; assisting him in DEM at her request, reminding her the raft was launching, & in both pill scenes (COL, 23) he could have been a jealous jerk but wasn't....Imo, in HP, Jack feared failing to being Michael back alive as he did Christian & thus thought it was dangerous for Kate....I'm not saying his attitude toward her was rt or didn't reflect some hurt, but as supported in comments by Foxy, by the end of the ep it's evident he feared losing her physically. He already believed he had emotionally in WKD.

They followed him to the caves, listened to him vs. Locke/Kate/Sayid in WR, waited for him to tell them what to do in EX & MOFMOS..

He also has a long history or being concerned for her safety & has been respectful to her feelings for Sawyer; assisting him in DEM at her request, reminding her the raft was launching, & in both pill scenes (COL, 23) he could have been a jealous jerk but wasn't....Imo, in HP, Jack feared failing to being Michael back alive as he did Christian & thus thought it was dangerous for Kate... He already believed he had emotionally in WKD.

Is anyone else having a hard time keeping up with episode title initials since we're into the second season? Just me? Okay, never mind then! :biggrin:

If Jack was not essentially "elected" lines like "I'm not a leader" "Yet they all treat you like one" "A leader can't lead til he knows where he's going" "Everyone wants me to be a leader until I make a decision they don't like" would be non-sensical..Ppl kept coming to him for answers & holding him accountable for everything. They followed him to the caves, listened to him vs. Locke/Kate/Sayid in WR, waited for him to tell them what to do in EX & MOFMOS..Imo, it's through his actions he has upheld his respect because he's proven many times over he puts everyone ahead of himself..We've seen him confer w/ppl many times on decisions & for their expertise.

I am not arguing that no one wants him to be leader. What I'm saying is, since there are those who don't see him in that way it is only natural that they may operate outside what he thinks is right. Namely, Sawyer/Sayid/Locke. Further, that does not make those people wrong for doing it. And that is why it makes me dislike him when he tries to force them to conform to his way of thinking.

I am not arguing that no one wants him to be leader. What I'm saying is, since there are those who don't see him in that way it is only natural that they may operate outside what he thinks is right. Namely, Sawyer/Sayid/Locke. Further, that does not make those people wrong for doing it. And that is why it makes me dislike him when he tries to force them to conform to his way of thinking.
I agree certainly anyone who doesn't accept him in the capacity of leader will challenge him.

I'm not quite sure though where he has forced his way of thinking on ppl. He has given them the option to go to the caves or join the army for i.e. When you accept a person as leader, as many have , you also accept you are trusting their judgement to make the decisions they feel are best for the group. Ppl certainly have held Jack accountable when things have gone wrong. This does not mean he shouldn't be ?d, but there's many i.e. of where he has consulted w/a group/individuals & few unilateral decisions on his part. He has not physically harmed ppl or locked them up when they haven't agreed w/him...I.e. when Locke & Kate wanted to go the hatch they went. None the less, each situation has to be looked at separately,imo, because on the island his constituents are his patients & "family". He has 3 personal/professional capacities melding.

Imo, he has been confused as to what ppl want from him...No one else stepped up to the plate in wanting the the stress, difficult/ unpopular decisions, & mundane job of tending to everyone 24/7 which comes w/leadership. So folks want him to make decisions but won't let him make mistakes.

The problem I have with Jack is that he doesn't listen to anyone. A good leader needs to be strong and hold there ground, but also listen to others and take their ideas into consideration. It's like Jack is running around with his fingers in his ears screaming "I'm not Listening!" Everything that anyone else says is automaticly wrong and he is right. It's not a way to lead.

Jack has every right to be extremely p.o.'d at Locke and I feel he was perfectly justified in the anger he showed when Locke had changed the combo to the armory...especially after the whole gun fiasco.
Why shouldn't Jack tell Locke to shut up...he's cost them so much already and Locke appears easily talked into anything these days.Sayid didn't have much of a discussion with Locke when the whole ...let's torture and lie to Jack scenario came about.
I want to smack Locke around myself so I can totally understand Jacks actions...he's not a control freak he just has no trust left towards Locke and rightly so IMO....

I am not arguing that no one wants him to be leader. What I'm saying is, since there are those who don't see him in that way it is only natural that they may operate outside what he thinks is right. Namely, Sawyer/Sayid/Locke. Further, that does not make those people wrong for doing it. And that is why it makes me dislike him when he tries to force them to conform to his way of thinking.

I can understand ppl such as locke/sawyer/sayid/whoever disagreeing w/ a decision that jack makes or even with his postition of leadership. But...I dont like the way they do it. They all treat him like the leader...even pushed him towards taking that role (ie locke)...but lately..they all seem to be going behind his back or undermining his authority. He IS the leader of the group...it may never have been voted on...but he is expected to lead...except for when some of the stronger willed survivor disagrees with him...which makes it very difficlut for him to lead. I think because he is the leader & the lead male character he is scrutinized more than any of the others...which doesnt always seem fair....and is very frustrating.

I totally disagree with what you just said. It doesn't even work if you don't mix correctly!