Soooo....what do we think of this news?? Pregnant with a sterile husband?

Soooo....what do we think of this news?? Pregnant with a sterile husband?

...or some soldiers learned how to swim better !

No, man; when they embraced, her eyes pretty much said, "Hey, remember when I just swore I didn't sleep with anybody else? Yeah, except for Homeboy McTaughtenglish."

she said she had never been with another man, not that she had never visited her local sperm bank or something. :)

I believe the Island "fixed" Jin as it did Locke...remember the wheel chair

Immaculate conception?!? And she expects Jin to believe this?? Personally, I believe it's her English teacher's but if she doesn't come clean with that then Jin and the rest of the Losties might think the Others might have impregnated her when she was "kidnapped". Hmmmm, things could get real interesting!!

This is starting to remind me of Sphere...you think it...want it..and it happens...Locke's legs...Charlie's guitar...Sun wanting a baby??

I believe the Island "fixed" Jin as it did Locke...remember the wheel chair

me too. :)

she defenitly had the "I totally lied and got away with it face" when she swore to Jin that she hadn't been with anyone else! She's lying... that is alll their is too it!

She was lying, guys; why else would she be consistently almost on top of the dude that taught her english? Her eyes said she was lying, her face said she was lying.

***MOD edit to remove inappropriate comments...clean it up please***

Actually, I think Jin wanted the baby more than Sun...:smile:

Isn't it odd how this concept of conception keeps coming up, especially with Locke's mum saying he was "immaculatly conceived?" I think Sun told Jin the truth, because I was waiting for a flashback when she told him but it didn't happen, so I think there's no evidence that her and Mr. Whatshisname actually ever slept together, but I definately would say there was an attraction...

I don't know, maybe I'm setting too much faith in Sun, but I don't see her as a liar, but I could be wrong.

Since she is pregnant, this will turn out to be a problem in the future with the others at the end of the series...:ohwell:

Namaste

Yeah I agree that it is Jin's baby. The island fixed Locke, so no reason it couldn't fix Jin too.

I think she's telling the truth. She took the hint from Jack that things didn't work out so great when she kept the English thing from Jin. She was just confused about the infertility diagnosis and about Jin's anger; that was her hesitation.

Yeah I agree that it is Jin's baby. The island fixed Locke, so no reason it couldn't fix Jin too.

I had the same reaction...Sun had that faraway look when he last hugged her though...and there was the implied "stay here for me" from her old blind date/english teacher...but i don't see her as a cheater. The island is a healer! :rolleyes:

You need to look up the definition of immaculate conception, it's not what you think it is.

I believe the Island "fixed" Jin as it did Locke...remember the wheel chair

This crossed my mind too. But they made a point of letting us know that Jin was sterile. Why? He didn't have to know. Either way (if it was the truth) it was a miracle. Why hurt him for the moment with the he's the one who's sterile story? To let us know. To plant doubt in OUR minds. And they also hinted at Sun and Mr. English Teacher liking each other. I mean...she definitely liked him when they were set up in her last flashback. So...we're supposed to question whether Sun is telling the truth, the whole truth...to Jin. I haven't decided whether to believe her or not. She sure was believable though.

Hmmm..... I believe that Sun was telling the truth.

Actually, I know a couple who was told that conception was impossible for both of them, she had had an infection and a tubal pregnancy (and divorced that spouse)...He had had that little operation...
They have three boys now...all his and all hers.....no fertility treatments. So odd things do happen every now and then....

"Immaculate" implies clean, or virginity, so in strict terms, does not apply here.

No, man; when they embraced, her eyes pretty much said, "Hey, remember when I just swore I didn't sleep with anybody else? Yeah, except for Homeboy McTaughtenglish."

Homeboy McTaughtenglish? That's freakin' hysterical.

I agree. The island fixed Jin, as it did Locke. Like Locke said about his leg "It was a miracle." and so did Jin he said "It's a miracle." :biggrin:

have I mentioned how happy I am that they are getting along?! :smile: But hope the Others don't come once they find out.........

this immediately reminded me of lockes mothers imaculate conception claims but hey who knows

LostFan. I hadn't thought about that...they better not tell Henry Gale!

"Immaculate" implies clean, or virginity, so in strict terms, does not apply here.

No it does not. Immaculate conception refers to the birth of MARY..the mother of Jesus. She was conceived in the regular old fashioned way with a mom and a dad. Virginity had nothing to do with her actual birth. The 'immaculate'in the term refers to the belief that she was born sinless.

If the island can give Locke the use of his legs, then why couldnt it fix Sun also?
There's a chance that she cheated, but the way she looked Jin in the face and told him she's never been with anyone else, plus the Jack lecture right before that.. I believe her.

Because they've said repeatedly that there isn't a sci/fi reason Locke is walking; its probably the electromagnetic interference.

Causing Jin to have spermies swimming properly would necessarily imply sci/fi, and that isn't likely.

Come on, guys, you Tivo this. Look at the way Sun and McTaughtenglish were looking at each other, right after she was staring out the window? They were about to kiss at endscene.

LostFan. I hadn't thought about that...they better not tell Henry Gale! I totally agree! He could think up something evil.......I think that she did it with someone. I'm not sure who.

No it does not. Immaculate conception refers to the birth of MARY..the mother of Jesus. She was conceived in the regular old fashioned way with a mom and a dad. Virginity had nothing to do with her actual birth. The 'immaculate'in the term refers to the belief that she was born sinless.

I am always amazed by the number of people who don't know that ... and even moreso by the number of people who will argue the point til they're blue in the face ... wrong all the while. :smile:

Come on, guys, you Tivo this. Look at the way Sun and McTaughtenglish were looking at each other, right after she was staring out the window? They were about to kiss at endscene.

AND make whoopie.

Considering the fact that Sun is pregnant, what does the show do now? Does it continue on the same way, moving at about one day or so an episode, leaving Sun pregnant for the rest of the series pretty much? Or do you think it'll change?

Sorry if that's a bit off-topic. I wasn't sure if I should ask that in a new topic or not.

Considering the fact that Sun is pregnant, what does the show do now? Does it continue on the same way, moving at about one day or so an episode, leaving Sun pregnant for the rest of the series pretty much? Or do you think it'll change?

Sorry if that's a bit off-topic. I wasn't sure if I should ask that in a new topic or not.

Interesting question, Zoe. With Claire it was easy, she was about to pop when they crashed. Geez, wearing a fake belly for the next five years, that would suck!

I think the writers have not made it clear to the actors whether or not Sun was telling the truth and resisted an affair with Jae Lee, so Yunjin was probably trying to play a certain amount of ambiguity in her expressions to cover all bases.

Cardie

this is just an idea, but what if...

Sun cheated with hot bald man because she was planning on leaving Jin anyway,

She finds out she's pregnant and thinks it's baldy's because Jin's boys can't swim,

Jin actually WAS "fixed" by the island somehow and it IS his baby, but Sun still thinks that it's baldy's.

I like this senario because in the end, it is Jin's son or daughter. Even if Sun doesn't know it.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but my take is this: If Locke can suddenly walk again, than Jin can suddenly father children.

Yeah, maybe she did have an affair with Jae Lee -- it sure seemed like that was going to be the reveal. But, in the end, I don't think she did. She looked genuinely happy after telling Jin everything, and perhaps the better story -- and less predictable choice -- is NOT to have had Sun and Jae Lee have an affair.

I think she's as confounded by why she's preggers as anyone else, hence the look on her face. She doesn't get it, and she's worried that Jin won't be so accepting about it as her pregnancy goes on.

If she'd had herself artificially inseminated, why would she be so shocked that she was preggers? Maybe she DID have a one night stand with Hotelier's Son, thinking she couldn't get preggers--but Jack's remarks about "false negatives at the end of the first week, but not false positives" seems to indicate Sun is around a week preggers. Which is about the time she and Jin got it on after he got back from his Raft/Tailers adventure. Thus:

I believe the Island "fixed" Jin as it did Locke
Seems to be the most "believable" option around. For now. As each season only covers about six weeks, Sun will be preggers for a long, LONG time. So don't expect any more mystery surrounding this pregnancy for awhile. The story line is just gonna move along, leaving "Sun is pregnant" at that, no more.

yea i totally agree it was her tutors, when they hugged at the end she looked guilty after he said it was a miracle baby. no way its his.

If Sun got pregnant while in Korea with hotel hospitality, then Sun should be showing pretty soon. Otherwise, we will have to wait about a whole season before she starts looking pregnant, unless she loses the baby.

It might be some weird Dharma Project fertility thing going on, too. Maybe by eating the food on the island, or drinking the water fixed Jin's swimmers? (Nah, that only happens on the set of "Stargate SG-1" that people that drink the water get pregnant...) Whatever it is, I gotta get me some of that!

If the kid comes out follically-challenged, we'll know that it was Baldy's all along. :D

Or, another thing I just thought of - men who wear "tightie whities" often have lower sperm counts than men who wear boxers. My friend Michelle had her husband switch to boxers, and she got pregnant. (Would that it was so easy with me and my husband...) Maybe Jin was forced to wear boxers because that's all that was recovered from the suitcases?

Ummm...I mentioned this in the other 8 threads similar to this one...But has anyone thought of Sun's menstrual cycle, here? Let's say it's been 50+ days on the island by now...Dont'cha think Sun would have had a period in that time? Which would mean she didn't get preggers from a pre-flight 815 hook up, with the tutor...or a sperm donor.

Nope...I think it's Jin's...and the island fixed his swimmers.

Ummm...I mentioned this in the other 8 threads similar to this one...But has anyone thought of Sun's menstrual cycle, here? Let's say it's been 50+ days on the island by now...Dont'cha think Sun would have had a period in that time?

Let's say Sun had a period a week before they left on their trip. Supposedly it's only been a couple of months on the island, so she could easily have brushed it off thinking the trauma from the crash caused her to be late. You can be late for all kinds of reasons (like trauma, illness, traveling, dieting, exercising too hard) and she's experienced just about every single one of them on the island! I'd be very surprised if the women were perfectly regular!

On the reality show Survivor, most of the women contestants say their bodies go into starvation mode and they do not have periods the whole 6 weeks they are there. So it's definitely possible for that to have happened and for Sun to believe it had nothing to do with pregnancy.

Once she started feeling dizzy and sick though, the thought must've been planted in her mind. Dizziness and nausea can start around 6 weeks but the sick feeling often doesn't get really bad until 8 or 10 weeks.

It's possible I guess that she conceived on the island after Jin returned, but she would be extremely early and probably not having symptoms yet. Most likely she is around 8 - 10 weeks pregnant and she got pregnant before they got on the plane.

She looked genuinely happy after telling Jin everything, and perhaps the better story -- and less predictable choice -- is NOT to have had Sun and Jae Lee have an affair.

Agree, Teeves. I think it was less predictable for there to be no affair, and I liked that. I do think that Yunjin made her facial expression a little vague, to leave open speculation. And rightfully so. But I choose to believe her. After all, the episode was called The Whole Truth.

I feel like, with all of those secrets Sun had from Jin, if she had had an affair with Jae, she might as well have told Jin at that point in the garden. It was time for the Whole Truth...

The most common speculation for Locke's ability to walk is the electromagnetism. Does anyone know if that could help Jin's ability to have a child. Any N.E.R.D.S. in here? Maybe I'll post in their thread and see if they have any ideas....

I believe Sun became pregnant on the Island....after the Crash.

Reason: Morning Sickness 1st shows up Between 4 to 6 weeks of being pregnant. thats 28 days to 42 days. It has been detailed that the current day is at least day 57 ...now maybe 58 .... reference http://lost.cubit.net/timeline.php (http://lost.cubit.net/timeline.php)

If Sun would have become pregnant before getting on the Airplane...then the earlist it could have been would be 58 days ago ...thats at least 8 weeks...more likely 9 weeks ago she would have became pregnant...She would be at 9 weeks pregnant (at least) ...
If Sun was pregnant before the crash then she would have experienced morning sickness in weeks earlier on.

I also believe that the intamacy between Sun and the guy that was teaching her English in her Flash Blacks was just shown just to throw us off..to make us think that he is the guy and that she became pregnant before the flight.


But not so fast....

I think Sun became prego on the Island..... and After Sun told Jin that she swears she was never with another man..she then looks suspicious n worried as if she just lied. so if you go with that that Sun really did sleep with another man.......then....

could it be...

that Sun Slept with someone else ON the island??????

Curazy!!!

I don't think Sun lied, I believe the baby is Jin's Her expression was happiness that changed to sadness. In the hotel she said that she was happy that she was unable to have a baby with Jin, probably because then she would be tied to him and his violent ways forever. Maybe her expression of sadness comes from that realization. Things are good now on the island away from the problems they were having, but now she is tied to this man forever, the man she was a hairsbreadth away from leaving in the airport!!

Let's say Sun had a period a week before they left on their trip. Supposedly it's only been a couple of months on the island, so she could easily have brushed it off thinking the trauma from the crash caused her to be late. You can be late for all kinds of reasons (like trauma, illness, traveling, dieting, exercising too hard) and she's experienced just about every single one of them on the island! I'd be very surprised if the women were perfectly regular!

On the reality show Survivor, most of the women contestants say their bodies go into starvation mode and they do not have periods the whole 6 weeks they are there. So it's definitely possible for that to have happened and for Sun to believe it had nothing to do with pregnancy.

Sawyer reading the Judy Blume book, about a young girl's first encounter with her monthly cycle is something the writer's put in to get us thinking about Sun cycle.

Even if Sun's body shut down her menstrual pattern due to stress or whatever, it's day 57!! She hasn't been concerned about being almost a whole month late until now? I'm sorry...she would have been showing the outward signs of pregnancy by the end of last season...or at least the beginning of this one. I think her & Jin had some make up hanky panky once he got back from the rafting trip...and that's that.

Mr. Homey McTaughterenglish was a red herring...not to say we won't see a continuation of their "affair" in future Sun flashbacks...But the guy would have had to have sex with her the night before Flight 815 took off for him to be the baby's daddy.

I am sort of suprised that no one has brought this up, considering the controversies on whether or not the crash was staged.

If the crash was staged: there is the possiblity that something happened to Sun that she does not remember.

Even if the crash was not staged, there is still the possiblity that there is a time delay between the crash and when they woke up on the island.

There is at least a possiblity that there is time missing from their memories, or events they cannot remember. Sun could have been artificially inseminated and not remember. The Dharmites certainly seem to have the technology to pull it off.

Something to consider, anyway.

I believe Sun became pregnant on the Island....after the Crash.

Reason: Morning Sickness 1st shows up Between 4 to 6 weeks of being pregnant. thats 28 days to 42 days. It has been detailed that the current day is at least day 57 ...now maybe 58 .... reference http://lost.cubit.net/timeline.php (http://lost.cubit.net/timeline.php)

If Sun would have become pregnant before getting on the Airplane...then the earlist it could have been would be 58 days ago ...thats at least 8 weeks...more likely 9 weeks ago she would have became pregnant...She would be at 9 weeks pregnant (at least) ...
If Sun was pregnant before the crash then she would have experienced morning sickness in weeks earlier on.
I disagree. Not all women get morning sickness. I didn't get it until about 9 weeks.

But I do think the baby was conceived on the island. I agree with another poster's theory about tightee whitees. This is an easy fix for male infertility. Something most fertility doctors recommend. But Sun's doctor was just too afraid to mention this to Jin because he was afraid of him.

Several thoughts to add to the mix:

The island wants children. It was in the island's interest for Sun to be pregnant and to have a full pregnancy, bearing a child for whatever the island's purposes with children is.

The time Sun was "away" when she was abducted from her garden is still unaccounted for. It is reasonable that Dharma/Hanso/TheOthers could have given her injections or whatever, even though it was Ji's body that wasn't ready to reproduce from what we know. I'd look for dreams with Sun if this is the case... and I wouldn't be surprised if she has them as Claire did, even if that is a red herring.

As others have said, if the island could miraculously cure Locke's legs then it can do so with Ji's fertility. It has its own purposes. I'm not so sure that this is to make Sun and Ji happy as much as to fufill the island's purposes, whatever they are.

My first reaction was the wildest (and not one to which I subscribe) and was that if the baby is born bi-racial, Sun couldn't keep the real paternity from Ji. In this, my first thought went to a person of color so the inability to hide the truth would be the toughest.

I have another thought. If Sun thought there was any reason why the baby wouldn't be Jin's why would Sun tell him that he was infertile? That would do nothing but introduce doubt in his mind. If she thought the baby might be McTaughtenglish's she could have just said nothing and just let Jin think the baby was his.

Immaculate conception? Sun couldn't have concieved immaculately unless she and Jin have never had sex, nor has she had sex with anyone else. People keep using that term, but they aren't using it correctly.

I have another thought. If Sun thought there was any reason why the baby wouldn't be Jin's why would Sun tell him that he was infertile? That would do nothing but introduce doubt in his mind.

I agree that mentioning the infertility would only add doubt to Jin's mind, but at the same time, the point of this episode was The Whole Truth. That is what Sun had to tell Jin - everything, not just more lies.

Plus, I was thinking, if she didn't tell Jin about his infertility, say he found out about it later on, off the island somehow, through medical records or whatever. I think that would place many more doubts in his mind - that Sun knew and didn't tell him. Again, the point of this was the Whole Truth. Sun told Jin the truth, and therefore, he could trust her when she said she hadn't been with anyone else but him. However, if he found out years later that he was infertile, he would wonder why Sun didn't just tell him when she was pregnant - if she hadn't been with anyone else, why wouldn't she tell him? It would incriminate her later if she didn't tell Jin now.

Also, if Jin knew Sun was pregnant but thought Sun was supposed to be the one incapable of having a child, he would worry profusely throughout the whole pregnancy. He would think her body wasn't supposed to be able to have a child, therefore her pregnancy would be risky. Will Sun be okay? Will the baby survive? Etc, etc. But now that he knows the truth, that isn't an issue.

The point of this episode was the truth, and it saves both Sun and Jin alot of further issues and hassles now that they both know the truth.

she said she had never been with another man, not that she had never visited her local sperm bank or something. :)

I thought this at first, but then I thought why would she go to a sperm bank right before she leaves her husband and moves to America. Unless she wanted to make sure it was a Korean baby and wasn't sure if she could find that in America. But that would be crazy, because she'd be going to America, pregnant with no where to go.

I believe the Island "fixed" Jin as it did Locke...remember the wheel chair

I'm with you on this. Once she told him everything, she looked completely relieved. I think her worry over telling him "everything" was because she was scared he wouldn't believe that she hadn't been with anyone else. It was a miracle that he did.

Immaculate conception? Sun couldn't have concieved immaculately unless she and Jin have never had sex, nor has she had sex with anyone else. People keep using that term, but they aren't using it correctly.

Oops...Sun couldn't have "conceived immaculately" unless the child she is carrying is without sin. The term has nothing to do with the mother's virginity.

I think the writers have not made it clear to the actors whether or not Sun was telling the truth and resisted an affair with Jae Lee, so Yunjin was probably trying to play a certain amount of ambiguity in her expressions to cover all bases.

Cardie

Excellent point. The actors don't even know yet! Also...thanks for remind us of JaeLee's name!

this is just an idea, but what if...


I like this senario because in the end, it is Jin's son or daughter. Even if Sun doesn't know it.

That would be interesting. But I don't think they'd make it that complicated. At least I hope not.



could it be...

that Sun Slept with someone else ON the island??????

Curazy!!!

Oooh! That would be good! But I just don't see Sun as doing that. I still think she loved Jin very much and wouldn't have taken that final step of betrayal. But everyone on the island seems to have their dark side. And we haven't seen Sun's. Maybe we will and this is it.

Several thoughts to add to the mix:

The island wants children. It was in the island's interest for Sun to be pregnant and to have a full pregnancy, bearing a child for whatever the island's purposes with children is.

The time Sun was "away" when she was abducted from her garden is still unaccounted for. It is reasonable that Dharma/Hanso/TheOthers could have given her injections or whatever, even though it was Ji's body that wasn't ready to reproduce from what we know. I'd look for dreams with Sun if this is the case... and I wouldn't be surprised if she has them as Claire did, even if that is a red herring.




The time she was abducted was unaccounted for...but the Others didn't abduct her. It was Charlie. Remember? Charlie has issues, but I don't think he'd rape Sun.

I gotta go with maculate conception on this one.:smile:

'Maculate' conception? That's a new one. :)

Everyone's refering to the "look" Sun gave - maybe it wasn't about the baby issue (and oh ya I think she totally slept with Mr. ESL) but she still hasn't come clean about everything else - ie. Leaving his arse in Australia! She hasn't come clean WHY she chose to learn English in the first place - and if she did - she would have to tell him that she was running away from him.
My idea last night was that she did either sleep with Jae Lee or go to a sperm bank because she knew she could have kids - Jin was the problem. She was leaving him, never going to see him again. She wanted children so she went and go pregnant so when she left him, she would have the child she wanted without having to explain it to Jin how it happened... IMHO she got pregnant on purpose to raise the child alone.

Immaculate Conception: The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain.

The Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with a virgin birth, not having sex to become pregnant, Jesus being born without original sin, etc. IT means that when MARY the mother of God was conceived, that she did not have original sin on HER soul. So in order to compare this concept to the show last nite, it would mean the following:

Suns mother became pregnant by the standard method with a child (Sun) who was born without original sin on her soul. Sun grew up and became pregnant with a child who in fact would have original sin, unlike his/her/its mother.

Yes the devil went to Catholic school for 12 years and learned something! :)

Yes the devil went to Catholic school for 12 years and learned something! :)

I still have bead marks on my knuckles from the nuns...I ran out screaming when I was 12...

Thanks for backing up my point...at least I think that is what you were doing...:biggrin:

surely dharma is impregnating these women, Lockes mother in the mental institute, Claire and now Sun.
its quite bhizzare but perhaps there is some sort ancient ritualistic thing going on where the sperm from a group of selected men is being used to impregnate these women to build some sort perfect society????(a bit far fetched, I know)

No it does not. Immaculate conception refers to the birth of MARY..the mother of Jesus. She was conceived in the regular old fashioned way with a mom and a dad. Virginity had nothing to do with her actual birth. The 'immaculate'in the term refers to the belief that she was born sinless.

Actually you're wrong. The immaculate conception refers to Mary's conception of Jesus Christ. Mary conceived Jesus without the "original sin" aka sex. This is why she went down in history known as "Virgin Mary".

Actually you're wrong. The immaculate conception refers to Mary's conception of Jesus Christ. Mary conceived Jesus without the "original sin" aka sex. This is why she went down in history known as "Virgin Mary".

That is called the 'Virgin Birth'...NOT the Immaculate conception. The Immaculate conception has to do with Mary being born 'immaculate' or without sin'.

Look it up...

I wanted to believe her - but I just couldn't with that look on her face when Jin hugged her.

I highly doubt that Sun would have had AI prior to leaving Jin, as some of you have speculated. It makes no sense to me at all. She was learning English so she could go to America, and start a new life. A single woman, with a baby in tow, is NOT the way to do it.

I honestly believe Sun conceived the night Jin returned with the tailies. Didn't you guys notice the looks on their faces when Hurley saw them both come out of their tent the next morning? Their expressions said it all.

As far as Sun having an affair, I doubt that too. This baby is Jin's, brought to you by just another island "miracle".

I agree that the island fixed Jin, and you get a pretty large indication that they slept together (Jin & Sun) when he returned from the raft. (First shirtless scene for a man whom wouldn't allow his wife even one button undone). I wish she had, but I don't think Jin slept with baldy- it just doesn't fit in with her character. If it were that easy, she wouldn't have done soemthing as drastic as move to the US in secret. Remember also that baldy doesn't want a relationship and hasn't wanted one from day one.
Another thing to consider is the fact that she never wanted the baby. She has been trying little by little to separate herself from Jin and to grow more independent (working alone in the garden even after the attack from Charlie) and has a penchant for not having him protect her. She stays with him out of some sort of decency and honor thing- it's almost as if sometimes she wants them to just be friends. Now it's his child and she is stuck with him because he immediately clings to the idea. I think the "look" she gave was more of a "what did I get myself into/god works in mysterious ways/the island works in mysterious ways" kind of thing. Remember, Jin tells her "I need you", but he says that it is because he doesn't understand the other people. When she tells him she loves him, which seems to come even as a surprise to her, he mimicks back with an "I love you", but he wouldn't have said anything otherwise. Jin treats her horribly, for whatever reason or cultural norm, but it is still objectively harsh. Sun is just a good girl that gets all worked up to rock the boat but when it comes to doing it she falters because of that fact. Jin is alone in an island where communication = survival, so he needs her. If there is a baby in the works, well, bonus for him.
Oh, and McTaughtenglish= fabulous name.

Actually you're wrong. The immaculate conception refers to Mary's conception of Jesus Christ. Mary conceived Jesus without the "original sin" aka sex. This is why she went down in history known as "Virgin Mary".

Actually, you're wrong:

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

I honestly believe Sun conceived the night Jin returned with the tailies. Didn't you guys notice the looks on their faces when Hurley saw them both come out of their tent the next morning? Their expressions said it all.

As far as Sun having an affair, I doubt that too. This baby is Jin's, brought to you by just another island "miracle".

I agree. I think that why they show sun & jin coming out of the tenet the next morning...not just to show jin w/o his shirt...which was quite nice...but so that we would look back & say "hey..thats when they concieved the miracle baby".

This crossed my mind too. But they made a point of letting us know that Jin was sterile. Why? He didn't have to know. Either way (if it was the truth) it was a miracle. Why hurt him for the moment with the he's the one who's sterile story? To let us know. To plant doubt in OUR minds. And they also hinted at Sun and Mr. English Teacher liking each other. I mean...she definitely liked him when they were set up in her last flashback. So...we're supposed to question whether Sun is telling the truth, the whole truth...to Jin. I haven't decided whether to believe her or not. She sure was believable though.

I think they did want to leave doubt in our minds...but they never said jin was STERILE....did they? If they did I missed it. Maybe he just had a really low sperm count.
No it does not. Immaculate conception refers to the birth of MARY..the mother of Jesus. She was conceived in the regular old fashioned way with a mom and a dad. Virginity had nothing to do with her actual birth. The 'immaculate'in the term refers to the belief that she was born sinless.

Here's a link for those who continue to argue this point
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

Its funny that I WENT to Catholic school...my daughter goes to Catholic school and yet I always THINK of Immaculate Conception as Jesus being born of the Virgin Mary. Yet...as soon as you made your comment I was like Duh...I should know that. I Do know that. Misconception about the Immaculate Conception.

I believe Sun became pregnant on the Island....after the Crash.

Reason: Morning Sickness 1st shows up Between 4 to 6 weeks of being pregnant. thats 28 days to 42 days. It has been detailed that the current day is at least day 57 ...now maybe 58 .... reference http://lost.cubit.net/timeline.php (http://lost.cubit.net/timeline.php)

If Sun would have become pregnant before getting on the Airplane...then the earlist it could have been would be 58 days ago ...thats at least 8 weeks...more likely 9 weeks ago she would have became pregnant...She would be at 9 weeks pregnant (at least) ...
If Sun was pregnant before the crash then she would have experienced morning sickness in weeks earlier on.

I also believe that the intamacy between Sun and the guy that was teaching her English in her Flash Blacks was just shown just to throw us off..to make us think that he is the guy and that she became pregnant before the flight.


But not so fast....

I think Sun became prego on the Island..... and After Sun told Jin that she swears she was never with another man..she then looks suspicious n worried as if she just lied. so if you go with that that Sun really did sleep with another man.......then....

could it be...

that Sun Slept with someone else ON the island??????

Curazy!!!

I had morning sickness within one week of being late. Everyone is different. I dont think the look on her face was "yes...I got away with the lie" I took it as partly..."how did this happen"...and maybe a realization...."will the OTHERS want my baby?"

As for the worried look on Sun's face during the hug, another possiblity is that she's thinking "WTF is going on here?".

If she honestly believes her husband is sterile, hasn't had sex with anyone else, and is pregnant. Well, I might be a little confused/worried myself.

Of course we might find out later she had an affair, but if people are going to convict her because of a look on her face, I hope those same people are never in a position to decide on my guilt or innocence.

Yikes, I'm always commenting on these things so late. Sigh. Ah well, it just seems to me that the idea of immaculate conception on this show is a bit overdone. We have Dharma, a mystical island, Sun lying, and regular sex to explain this. Along with a hopeful promise from TPTB that everything has a concrete explanation on the island. No I'm not saying it wasn't immaculate, but it seems like it's the bottom option on a long laundry list of ways this coulda come about.

I still do not think Sun us telling the truth about the situation. She does not seem to like to tell the truth.

I think that she is most likely pregnant by the Bald dude. But an immaculate conception or Jin being healed could be realistic based on other things that have happened on the show.

But poor Yujin....if she has to be prego for all these years that would suck for her character.

why would she have shared "her secret" about Jin with him and them "hope" that he would believe some "farfetched" idea about not being with someone else...

i thought for sure Jin was going to react violently after that news... and she "has" to have expected that to be his reaction... she couldn't have expected him to buy into "miracle" story...

why not just let Jin think DR. was wrong about her and he got her pregnant...

She was lying, guys; why else would she be consistently almost on top of the dude that taught her english? Her eyes said she was lying, her face said she was lying.

Why would she tell Jin that he was sterile if she cheated on him? His obvious thought would be that she cheated on him. If she was trying to deceive him, no way would she have told him he was really the one who was sterile. That just doesn't make any sense.

Her "looks" while they were hugging could have been from the fact she was unsure if she wanted to have a child by him. Remember when she was with her english teacher? She told him that she was happy they couldn't conceive.

Plus, if she was impregnated by her english teacher, wouldn't she be further along and suspect she was pregnant? Their last encounter that we've seen, was probably at least a month before she left. They've been on the island 2 months, so she'd be at least 3 months pregnant. Don't you think she'd have known sooner that she wasn't pregnant (ie, no period, morning sickness, etc)?

Except that it was Charlie and Sawyer who "abducted" Sun, not the Others.



The time Sun was "away" when she was abducted from her garden is still unaccounted for. It is reasonable that Dharma/Hanso/TheOthers could have given her injections or whatever, even though it was Ji's body that wasn't ready to reproduce from what we know. I'd look for dreams with Sun if this is the case... and I wouldn't be surprised if she has them as Claire did, even if that is a red herring.
.

Yes the devil went to Catholic school for 12 years and learned something! :) I went to 12 years of Catholic school too and what I remember most about the Immaculate Conception is that we celebrated the Feast of the Immaculate Conception on December 8th and so we had off from school (yipee!). Wouldn't that be the approximate date it is on the island (I think another thread mentions that but I haven't read it yet) so that the 8th could be the day Sun conceived?

Actually, you're wrong:

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

As someone who also attended Catholic School for 12 years, I must say "Thank you" to both Diablo and Baileysdad for setting the record straight. One of the Catholic schools I attended was named Immaculate Conception and the faculty made sure we knew that the Immaculate Conception was about Mary's conception, not Jesus'.

Read Diablo's quote above. This is the definition of Immaculate Conception. Try googling "Immaculate Conception" and see it for yourself or just look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

I'm not sure what my theory about Sun's baby is. The episode makes you think she probably had an affair with "Mr. McTaughtEnglish" (great name BTW), but I tend to think that's not the case. I had the same thought as a lot of other people that the island may have "healed" Jin in a similar way that it "healed" Locke.

Before the episode aired, I thought it was possible that she slept with someone on the island particularly around the time that she thought Jin was dead after the message bottle was found.

The "immaculate conception" or however you want to phrase it is a definite possibility with this show especially with the possible Dec. 8 connection, but I think that also may have been thrown in just to throw us off.

So I guess for now my theory is that the baby is either Jin's or someone else on the island.

As someone who also attended Catholic School for 12 years, I must say "Thank you" to both Diablo and Baileysdad for setting the record straight. One of the Catholic schools I attended was named Immaculate Conception and the faculty made sure we knew that the Immaculate Conception was about Mary's conception, not Jesus'.

Read Diablo's quote above. This is the definition of Immaculate Conception. Try googling "Immaculate Conception" and see it for yourself or just look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

THANK YOU!!!! The people who have being arguing that it is about Jesus not Mary just need to pick up a dictionary and read the definition!!!!

Has anyone thought that maybe the change in stress (no longer having to kill for Sun's father), the food (all natural from the sea and earth) and the possiblity of Jin having to wear boxers (who knows if that is true..) made a difference in his fertility?

I understand that people believe that the island is "changing" people, but couldn't Locke have lost his ability to walk through something as simple as a slipped disc and when the plane went down, he might have jostled the "disc" (or whatever the issue is/was...) back into a normal position, which would account for him being able to walk now....

Also.. if this preggers story becomes all religious.. Lost will have jumped the shark...

just my ideas...

I'm not sure at this point that we actually have "The Whole Truth"... I keep thinking about an old spoiler from Spoilerfix.com, which said:
01/16 - [Yunjin Kim] said she's due in Hawaii immediately after the Globes to shoot her and TV husband Daniel Dae Kim's (Jin) next flashback episode - a romantic love triangle set to air in February. Source: USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2006-01-15-kim-swag_x.htm?POE=LIFISVA)
This makes me think that either the producers decided to hold back the information on the "romantic love triangle," or just changed course and scrapped the whole idea. I tend to think they are holding the information back. While Sun does not seem to be the lying type, she did lead a secret life apart from Jin prior to the crash. Where it gets difficult to put two and two together is where she told Jin about his sterility. If she was lying about the paternity of the baby, why do that? Very interesting...

Has anyone thought that maybe the change in stress (no longer having to kill for Sun's father), the food (all natural from the sea and earth) and the possiblity of Jin having to wear boxers (who knows if that is true..) made a difference in his fertility?

Excellent point. Stress has an amazing effect on the human body, so it's really hard to say that this didn't happen. Also things that we do....diet for example, can impact the ability to have children (ever heard what Mt. Dew does to a guy?).

I believe Sun became pregnant on the Island....after the Crash.

Reason: Morning Sickness 1st shows up Between 4 to 6 weeks of being pregnant. thats 28 days to 42 days. It has been detailed that the current day is at least day 57 ...now maybe 58 .... reference http://lost.cubit.net/timeline.php (http://lost.cubit.net/timeline.php)

Morning sickness isn't a good guideline to use. As someone else mentioned in the thread, everyone reacts differently. I wasn't sick at all during my pregnancy, while my sister was so ill she had to be hospitalized.

I went to 12 years of Catholic school too and what I remember most about the Immaculate Conception is that we celebrated the Feast of the Immaculate Conception on December 8th and so we had off from school (yipee!). ...

Yeah but we still had to go to Church!

Yeah but we still had to go to Church!

:sweatdrp: Oh, yea. We were supposed to do that, weren't we...

I went to 12 years of Catholic school too and what I remember most about the Immaculate Conception is that we celebrated the Feast of the Immaculate Conception on December 8th and so we had off from school (yipee!). Wouldn't that be the approximate date it is on the island (I think another thread mentions that but I haven't read it yet) so that the 8th could be the day Sun conceived?

Interesting thing too. Rose was salty that Bernard forgot her birthday. There has been some speculation that Dec. 8th is also her birthday as well.

Actually, you're wrong:

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

Indeed. I've had this discussion before. The "Immaculate Conception" was the creation of Mary sans sin, in order to be the "vessel" for Christ's birth.

That look Sun gave was tricky to decipher, but I think we can't really know at this point about the affair. I think those who questioned the utility of her telling Jin the truth about his sperm count have a point--if she had been unfaithful, why even bring up the fact that the original problem was his? As for AI, her comment to Mr MacTaughtEnglish was that she was GLAD to hear she was infertile. So she isn't likely to have gone to a sperm bank. As for Jin's cure being analogous to Locke's, I don't think we're going to learn that the island's magnetism is the key. I think Locke's original paralysis was largely psychosomatic.

I just want to add in my 2 cents and ask a question. First, if she conceived when Jin came back with the tailies, she's only be about a week pregnant, I don't think you feel anything at that point unless something is really wrong, and even still, it's very early to feel sick and very early to take a pregnancy test. If she were pregnant before they got on the plane then she'd be almost 2 months pregnant, starting to swell and would have known already. But I'd like to throw out, she was reasonably sure that Sawyer had a pregnancy test, why would you ask unless you know you packed one yourself? And the big question I gotta ask, did anyone notice that the pregnancy test was made by Widmore Labs? Did I see this or am I making it up?

To me Sun was completely believable when she said she'd never had sex with another man. Her relief came because Jin believed her. It's hard pill to swallow after all.

Then she put her hands over the baby and a look of concern came over her face. The concern was for herself and the baby on that island. Pregnant mothers haven't exactly had a good history there!

Widmore labs....
see spoiler below....

Another hint: Look out for WIDMORE INDUSTRIES in upcoming episodes, flashbacks AND on the island .Look out for WIDMORE LABS in a character's flashback before 2x17 THEN when episode 2x17 comes, look at the balloon..im thinking Henry has a connection with Sun or Sun's dad

Both times I have been pregnant I start getting sick literally a week after conception-and the doctor has said that it can be a good sigh that the pregnancy is going well-which is sometimes reassuring sometimes not-depending how sick you are.

Sawyer seems to have everything-so if there was a pregnancy test on the plane-he would be the most likely to have it.

I am thinking the baby does indeed belong to Jin, and as for her being pregnant for several seasons-I guess we will have to see if they keep to the pace they have set. At least with both my pregnancies I didn't look pregnant or show for the first five months-so maybe they won't put her in some false belly for years.

You can get a positive PG test approx. 2 weeks after conception which equals 4 weeks along. How many days ago were her & Jin in the tent? If it was around 14 days ago then that could be when she conceived. I really doubt that they are going to get into when her last menstrual period was though making it hard for us to really pin point how far along she is at this time. Every PG woman is different but there are certain symptoms that are shown on TV & in movies - the feeling light headed, fainting, morning sickness - to show the audience that the woman is PG. IF you think that they are trying to show a 'typical' PGcy then we can guess that she is around 4-6 weeks PG by the symptoms they were showing, meaning that she conceived 2-4 weeks ago - which equals getting PG on the island and that it is Jin's baby (unless she was sleeping with someone else on the island)!

And the big question I gotta ask, did anyone notice that the pregnancy test was made by Widmore Labs? Did I see this or am I making it up?

Here you go...discussing that nugget right here:)

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=41263

While I think they are being deliberately ambiguous at this point, I read the scenario this way. After their idyllic reunion sex, Jin reverts to being the controlling husband she didn't want to have a baby with in the "tear up your garden" scene. Her look of concern even though Jin believes she has been faithful and is overjoyed about the baby has to do with this making her even more likely to be controlled by him. Sun wants her independence above everything.

In the last scene, when Jin agrees to let her stay alone in the garden and use a character from her mother's name for the baby, she realizes that they can have a more equal relationship in which Jin doesn't feel compelled to play the traditional dominating husband. It's at that point she finally smiles.

BTW, if Sun didn't conceive after Jin's return, I don't think that it's impossible they had sex after the crash and before they separated.

Cardie

FYI...

1. Some have speculated something happening to Sun to make her pregnant when she was taken in the garden. She wasn't really taken, she fought them off, and it was Charlie staging an attack, remember? Claire was the only one actually taken (Walt too, but you know..)

2. Remember that episode when Sun and Jin came out of their hut and Jin's first shirtless scene, with the satisfied and loving looks? There ya go!

I believe Sun is telling the truth. I think the look on her face was just because she was attracted to the other guy and had considered sleeping with him.

I believe the Island "fixed" Jin as it did Locke...remember the wheel chair

That's genius.

That's genius.


:smile: This is Genius! I hadn't even thought about that -- my mind was wandering last night into all kinds of conspiracy theories about this -- but this is the simple answer -- THE ISLAND FIXED JIN, just like it fixed Locke:smile:

Has anyone thought that maybe the change in stress (no longer having to kill for Sun's father), the food (all natural from the sea and earth) and the possiblity of Jin having to wear boxers (who knows if that is true..) made a difference in his fertility?

I understand that people believe that the island is "changing" people, but couldn't Locke have lost his ability to walk through something as simple as a slipped disc and when the plane went down, he might have jostled the "disc" (or whatever the issue is/was...) back into a normal position, which would account for him being able to walk now....
I mentioned that earlier in the thread. It's quite simple, really. If Jin normally wore briefs before the crash, he wouldn't have any reason to suspect that the problem was his parts and not hers. So he probably wouldn't have changed. (And old Jin was so "old-school" that he wouldn't even think their inability to conceive was HIS fault, doctor or no doctor.) But, put them on the Island, where he probably has to wear whatever underwear has been salvaged from the luggage (all we saw of their luggage was the watches), and boom.

And no, I don't think that Baldy McEnglish was giving her "private lessons", even though I'm sure that they both wanted to. Not only was she a married woman, but her father was the Korean version of Tony Soprano, and Jin was his "enforcer". If he was found out, Baldy would be in deep kim-chee - literally.

If Baldy was giving Sun "private lessons", would that make him a cunning linguist? :D

The time Sun was "away" when she was abducted from her garden is still unaccounted for. It is reasonable that Dharma/Hanso/TheOthers could have given her injections or whatever,

Ummm...What is this missing time she was "away"? Charlie grabbed her...She screamed out...Kate & Sawyer heard the screams immediately from the beach...Charlie dragged Sun a bit further before she broke away and she knocked herself out running into something (or Charlie hit her over the head with something, which I doubt)...and Kate & Sawyer found her moments later.

She was "away" for like 5 minutes tops. Hardly enough time for a rape or some kind of half a$$ed artificial insemination scheme to occur. It takes more than a simple "injection" I can tell you that.

Plus, "geniuses", the island fixed JIN...not Sun...the doctor confirmed there was nothing wrong with Sun's reproductive organs.

Ummm...What is this missing time she was "away"? Charlie grabbed her...She screamed out...Kate & Sawyer heard the screams immediately from the beach...Charlie dragged Sun a bit further before she broke away and she knocked herself out running into something (or Charlie hit her over the head with something, which I doubt)...and Kate & Sawyer found her moments later.

She was "away" for like 5 minutes tops. Hardly enough time for a rape or some kind of half a$$ed artificial insemination scheme to occur. It takes more than a simple "injection" I can tell you that.

Plus, "geniuses", the island fixed JIN...not Sun...the doctor confirmed there was nothing wrong with Sun's reproductive organs.

You're new, so I'm gonna assume you're not trying to be rude when you responded to the conversation, but the 'Lage is a pretty friendly place so if you disagree with an idea try to be at least a little bit mellow about it. I mean after all it is just a tv show.

Well, we just have to wait out the pregnancy to find out who the father really is.

If the baby's last name is McTaughtenglish, Jin will be pissed.

If the baby is born bald, we'll also know who's the daddyo. ;)

And no, I don't think that Baldy McEnglish was giving her "private lessons", even though I'm sure that they both wanted to. Not only was she a married woman, but her father was the Korean version of Tony Soprano, and Jin was his "enforcer". If he was found out, Baldy would be in deep kim-chee - literally.


Excellent point! I think that sums it up. My mind is made up now.




If Baldy was giving Sun "private lessons", would that make him a cunning linguist? :D


:ohmy: You're bad. Very bad.

Has anyone noted since this eps. about immaculate conception yet? Because I think it all fits very well. We have the fact that there have been more than enough religious tie-ins and such and the fact that it has been a few eps. since there has been one. This could very well be building up to a belief in something for the survivors.

In my opinion, there were more than enough things said purposely in this eps. to allude to the fact that there is no way that Jin, even if he is "fixed" like Locke that she could already know that she is in deed pregnant. The first was something Ana Lucia said to Locke, which was "I've been here a week and a half and you've said nothing to me". So at most it's been 10-12 days. The second or third day they were back is when Jin/Sun had sex and would be believed to have conceived that night. So at most it's been 9 days since then. They also made it a point to have Jack say how accurate the test was after the first week or so error. It has barely been a week. Then we have the face that Sun has been showing fatigue, morning sickness, light headed ect ect. These are signs of pregnancy after around a month or so. Not a week. So, the fact that the test was postive, she conceived it a week before, and had already had pretty advanced signs, something seems a bit off. Now, I believe that she wasn't lying about never cheating on him. I believe that. But if you assume the Immaculate Conception (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception) according to the Catholic belief system, that this would mean she is free of sin and that something more than this was the cause of the pregnancy.

Also, in this eps. I believe there was a lot of symbolism in the large amount of time spent in the garden. Her garden. One could look at the garden as her life or her body. One moment, nothing. Empy. The next, she plants a seed and then within a few weeks, faster and bigger than normal she has these very nice, huge plants. Which Jin comes in and rips out of her life. Almost like taking away her children in a way. Then she finds out she is pregnant and tells him. Everything smooths over. And we see them together rebuilding her garden as a "Family".

The belief in an Immaculate Conception would also help further a religion on the island as well as bring Ecko back to the front for a while. But, if this is alluded to at all.. I think what would end up happening is that we would learn about something that Dharam did to her unknowningly. Somehow, it seems like there was just way to many coincidence in this eps. for me to just believe that Jin can now have children.

what? :confused:

what? :confused:

double huh?

But if you assume the Immaculate Conception (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception) according to the Catholic belief system, that this would mean she is free of sin and that something more than this was the cause of the pregnancy.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception states: The Immaculate Conception is a Catholic dogma that asserts that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was preserved by God from the stain of original sin at the time of her own conception.
It doesn't say that Mary's mother and father did not have sex to produce her. People seem to jump to the conclusion that an immaculate conception means conceived without sex. Probably confusing the "virgin birth" with it. But as stated several times prior in this very thread, immaculate conception means conceived without sin. Not without sex. Sex, between a husband and wife, is not a sin. :biggrin: The doctrine is that she was conceived in the usual way, but the miracle seems to be that she was without sin. She was, however, a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. So HE was conceived without her having had sex prior to his birth. And the doctrinal belief is that SHE had to be born without sin so that HE could be. Doesn't make sense to me, but that's the belief.

While it is true that sex between a husband and wife is without sin, the word immaculate refers to Mary --- meaning untouched, which according to the Bible she was -- as in the virgin birth. I understand that people intended this thread to infer that Sun's pregnancy was a miracle and not the result of sex, but two things:
1. The creators of Lost have stated over and over again that EVERYTHING on the show can be explained -- immaculate conception/ or miracle conception doesn't fit into that description.
2. Sun was not immaculate -- therefore miracle birth would be a more accurate description of this thread.

I know that people have argued this back and forth -- including links to definitions. All you have to do is understand the meaning of the word immaculate!

Actually, I think Jin wanted the baby more than Sun...:smile:


I don't know, maybe I'm setting too much faith in Sun, but I don't see her as a liar, but I could be wrong.



Namaste

What about when she lied to everyone about speaking English. That doesn't exactly make me want to trust her.

I understand that people intended this thread to infer that Sun's pregnancy was a miracle and not the result of sex, but two things:
1. The creators of Lost have stated over and over again that EVERYTHING on the show can be explained -- immaculate conception/ or miracle conception doesn't fit into that description.
2. Sun was not immaculate -- therefore miracle birth would be a more accurate description of this thread.


Excellent reminders!


I know that people have argued this back and forth -- including links to definitions. All you have to do is understand the meaning of the word immaculate!

Agreed. And yet we keep arguing. :ohwell:

What about when she lied to everyone about speaking English. That doesn't exactly make me want to trust her.

Posting as a poster...not a MOD...

She didn't lie about speaking English...nobody asked her if she did. She just chose to not speak it. When Kate asked her..she told her. Withholding information is not lying unless you are asked point blank and deny it.

Sneaky? Maybe...but dishonest? I would have to disagree...

Posting as a poster...not a MOD...

She didn't lie about speaking English...nobody asked her if she did. She just chose to not speak it. When Kate asked her..she told her. Withholding information is not lying unless you are asked point blank and deny it.

Sneaky? Maybe...but dishonest? I would have to disagree...

Perhaps the legal definition of lying is what you say. But there's a think called lying by omission. It's withholding the truth. And she did pretend to not understand what others were saying to her in English even though she did. An outright lie by your definition? No. Dishonest? I think so. Some may argue that Sun did not lie to Kate's face simply because she knew she was busted. If someone came up to Sun and asked if she spoke English without the incident of her "slip up", she may have said no. An outright lie. Of course we don't know this for sure either way.

Wow, looks like I'm quite late. But I just wanted to throw in my two cents...

The thing that struck me as funny is that when Sun first told Jin that she is pregnant, he was basically thrilled. Now, at this point, he was still under the impression that SHE was the "problem," but he pretty much swept over the entire issue. Then, Sun tells him that it was actually his "problem," and suddenly she has to defend herself by saying, "I've never been with another man." See what I mean? I know, WE know that there was some lingering chemistry going on between Sun and Bald-guy, but Jin didn't... I just don't like the double standard! A miracle is a miracle!!

I wish that we hadn't had that ambiguous look at the end. I don't think Sun would be comfortable with cheating, but then again the Sun we know now, isn't the same Sun in the flashbacks. I have to keep reminding myself that she felt alone, unhappy, and didn't trust Jin.

the word immaculate refers to Mary --- meaning untouched, which according to the Bible she was -- as in the virgin birth.Once and for all: no, it does not refer to Mary being untouched. It refers to her being conceived free from original sin, thereby making her a fit vessel to bear Jesus.

Once and for all: no, it does not refer to Mary being untouched. It refers to her being conceived free from original sin, thereby making her a fit vessel to bear Jesus.

Her being conceived free from originally sin -- I'm assuming that you intended to mean that she conceived without sin -- but the Bible is also specific that she had not been with Joseph -- and that Jesus' birth was a virgin birth. I'm assuming, since that is the ONLY recorded IMMACULATE conception -- that any other IMMACULATE conception would follow the same pattern.

Seriously, the dictionary definition of immaculate is "spottlessly clean". Mary was spottlessly clean -- untouched.

Her being conceived free from originally sin -- I'm assuming that you intended to mean that she conceived without sin --No. The dogma is that when Mary was conceived her soul did not have the stain of original sin. She was therefore a suitable mother for Jesus.
but the Bible is also specific that she had not been with Joseph -- and that Jesus' birth was a virgin birth. Which is what confuses so many people. But the Immaculate Conception refers to Mary's conception, not Jesus'.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

No. The dogma is that when Mary was conceived her soul did not have the stain of original sin. She was therefore a suitable mother for Jesus.
Which is what confuses so many people. But the Immaculate Conception refers to Mary's conception, not Jesus'.

her conception would refer to the conception of Mary -- in other words when Mary was conceived -- when the egg and sperm met and created Mary. I think you mean her conception of Jesus which was unique because he was created despite the fact that no egg and sperm met. I'm curious too, why everyone is using the Catholic interpretation of this issue --- many Christian denominations have teachings on this.

Why would she tell him he is sterile and then lie about not being with another man? Wouldn't have been easier to keep shut about his sterility if the kid is not his?

I think you mean her conception of Jesus which was unique because he was created despite the fact that no egg and sperm met.No, I do not mean her conception of Jesus. I'm not sure how to be more clear than I've already been.
The Immaculate Conception refers to Mary's conception, accomplished in the usual manner by her two parents. The dogma is that when she was conceived, her soul was somehow free from the original sin that stains all (other) human souls. That's it. The virgin birth of Jesus is another subject entirely.
Now, there are denominations that don't believe in the Immaculate Conception, but that doesn't change the definition of it.

I can only speak for myself...but I refered to the Catholic interpretation of the Immaculate Conception (and my own misconception of it...because I am Catholic and that is the one I am familiar with. Maybe there are alot of Catholics discussing the subject here....or maybe the Catholic version is the most widely known (more like most widely misinterpreted if this thread is an example). Are other Christian religions interpretations much different?

There are no "interpretations" of what the Immaculate Conception is. The term means what I've said it means, despite the fact that so many, even Catholics, are misinformed.

Yes, my Luthern upbring taught me that the immaculate conception refered to the conception of Jesus, not Mary and that He was sinnless -- not her. And kartvelo, I appreciate that you feel that you are being clear, but that doesn't mean that I'll agree with you. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm obtuse -- simply that my perspective is divergent from yours.

I used the word interpretation becasue that was the word the original poster used. I posted earlier that I alwasy "think" of the Immaculate Conception" as Jesus being concieved of the Virgin Mary...even though I was taught & should KNOW that it is about Mary's conception...not Jesus'. Based on this thread I am not the only one w/ this misconception...although once it was brought to our attention...I realized my mistake...while others have been insisting...even though we have posted links to the definition....that suns pregnancy is the Immaculate Conception. I have heard it alot in jest. Someone saying to someone if they are nauseous or something "you must be pregnant" & the other person responding "not unless its the Immaculate Conception"....so I think its is widely misused.

But my early days in the Luthern church did not teach me that Mary was sinless and the evangelical Christian church doesn't teach it either, but they do teach the immaculate conception of Christ. So perhaps the confussion stems from that. I was taught that Jesus was conceived immaculately -- not Mary.

notlost...check out this link.... http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/display.asp?t1=i&word=IMMACULATECONCEPTION

Im not trying to be argumentative. I looked it up because I was curious about what you were saying. I think you should check this out. Have a good night.

Oh, don't worry, I know we're just having a discussion. I wasn't a member of the Missouri Synod. I wonder if there's a difference or if my catachism teacher goofed.

Considering the fact that Sun is pregnant, what does the show do now? Does it continue on the same way, moving at about one day or so an episode, leaving Sun pregnant for the rest of the series pretty much? Or do you think it'll change?

Sorry if that's a bit off-topic. I wasn't sure if I should ask that in a new topic or not.

This is miracle island. Pregnancy may be a shorter period of time.

Whether you accept the doctrine or not (and many Lutherans do not) is an entirely different question, of course. But the term means what it means.

Check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception
"The Immaculate Conception is a Catholic dogma that asserts that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was preserved by God from the stain of original sin at the time of her own conception. Specifically, the dogma says she was not afflicted by the lack of sanctifying grace that afflicts mankind, but was instead filled with grace by God, and furthermore lived a life completely free from sin. It is commonly confused with the doctrine of the virgin birth, though the two deal with separate subjects."

Or this:
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/immaculate%20conception
"the conception of the Virgin Mary in which as decreed in Roman Catholic dogma her soul was preserved free from original sin by divine grace"

Or this, from the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod:
http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/display.asp?t1=i&word=IMMACULATECONCEPTION
"RC dogma 'that the most Blessed Virgin Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin in the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God, in consideration of the merits of Jesus Christ, savior of the human race' "

Or this, from the website for Our Lord's Lutheran Church in Oklahoma City:
http://www.angelfire.com/ok2/ourlords/onceasked.html
"The term "immaculate conception" is a term applied to the conception of Mary, not of Jesus."

When Jack confirms for Sun that she is pregnant, Sun says, "That's impossible." I suppose there are other interpretations, but I'm inclined to think that she says this because she thinks Jin is infertile and she knows she has not been with anyone else. If she had hooked up with the English tutor, I don't think this would have been her reaction. I also think that if she were going to lie to Jin about having an affair, why tell him that he was the infertile one at all?
I'll admit I was a little unsure about Sun's facial expressions at the end, but ultimately I thought this was a Season 1-esque "Losties overcome their pre-crash demons" (as opposed to the recent string of Season 2 "Losties falling apart at the seams" darker episodes).

Hey that's true -- that wouldn't have been her reaction if she had hooked up with the English tutor. And I just wanted to mention that this is my 1,000th post! :)

1,000 posts? WOW...That must mean you are not "new". Hey...was the troll in your avatar conceived immaculately, too? Cuz...that would be cool.

i could only think of one reason for why sun would tell Jin that he was the one that had baby producing problems... she wanted to make sure that jin thought it was his. She could have have easily not told jin about his reproducing problem and he would still think that them having a baby was a miracle. She would have to be really dense to tell her husband hey you have a problem yet we are still pregnant but its definently your baby. the writers must have added it in to get rid of any doubt. If she hadn't told jin everyone would think that she is purposely hiding that fact just to convince jin that it's jin's baby. her telling the truth to jin would seem to parallel sun telling the truth to jin about it being his. She's on a truth role.... Anyone see what i'm saying??

That's true. cant see why she would've told him he cant have children if she had a affair. So either he wasnt really infertile or the island 'cured' him. I doubt the pregnancy have anything to do with her being kidnapped.
another thing, why would she sayit's impossible if she must've thought it was possible if she asked Sawyer for a pregnancy test?

I don't think Sun was lying to Jin because, as has been mentioned, why would she tell him about the results of the fertility test if she thought the baby (if there really is one) could be anyone but his? She isn't stupid, for crying out loud -- she would reasonably fear he would suspect she had cheated, so there was no reason to tell him about the test except that she feels driven to tell him "the whole truth."

I think a reasonable explanation of the "the look" on her face is simply that she may not have wanted a child, or that she isn't sure she wants one ... or even more likely, she isn't sure if she wants to go through a pregnancy on a strange (AND probably quite humid and hot) tropical island in the middle of nowhere.

I don't think that we are meant to second-guess everything everyone says and start to just presume that characters are always lying -- if we do, then nothing anyone says would mean very much.

Qapla'

SSB

Yea!!!! A post that talks about Jin and Sun and not Jesus and Mary!!!!