I got curious as to whether any of us Fuseleers have participated in any of the historic pro-immigrant marches taking place all around the country, and if so, what are your stories?

My husband and I are both excited about this historic moment that the media are calling "the beginning of a new civil rights movement." We didn't actually attend the Chicago march (which might have been the very first) because I had to drive him around the city to multiple gigs (he's a musician), but we saw some of it, and he and our son saw miles and miles of marchers later that afternoon. Everybody was stunned, even the organizers and marchers.

How about it, Fuseleers? Stories? Thoughts?

I went to the one in Philidelphia last week sometime.

I didn't get much response here . . . but maybe a few Fuseleers went to the May Day marches?

I wrote up my impressions of the Chicago march (police say 400,000!) for a letter to the editor, thought I'd share here in case anyone's interested:


As I exited my office building, stepped into the throng and unfurled my American flag, the marchers around me cheered. An auspicious beginning. Soon I found myself swept up in a vast wave of humanity, of celebration, of striving. The old and the young, students and workers, the poor and the comfortable, in Spanish and English and many tongues, whooping and chanting, accompanied by drums and trumpets, almost half a million people spoke with one voice: we’re here, we’re proud, we want to continue to work and contribute and build this nation. We want and deserve a place at the table, not just your scraps. We, too, are America.

Glancing up at an El platform, I noticed a few white faces. One person held up a sign. Could they be anti-immigrant protesters? On the sign was lettered Oscar Romero’s famous quote: No human being is illegal.

After stopping at Abe Lincoln’s statue in Grant Park to meditate on the slow march of freedom across the years, I walked back with a Lithuanian woman. “I work for America, too,” she told me. “Every day, I give everything I have to my music students, because I know I am helping to build America’s future.

“I was a part of the revolution in Lithuania in 1991,” she went on. “The marches, the meetings, all the people together . . . there is nothing like it. Who would have guessed that I would live through such a thing twice?”

As we parted, tears came to my eyes. In the last few dark years, I have sometimes despaired of my country’s future and questioned its citizens' commitment to the freedom their ancestors bought so dearly. But after witnessing the determination and enthusiasm and political savvy on display today, I feel that the republic will be in good hands in coming years.

Those are fantastic observations, Lostmymarbles. Were you surprised to see white Americans at the protest? Here in Memphis, the demonstrations have been held at the Lorraine Motel (where Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated), which is now the National Civil Rights Museum. Which personally, I couldn't think of a more fitting place to demonstrate. However, Memphis had a large turnout of African Americans protesting the demonstrations being held at the Civil Rights Museum. Race relations are absolutely horrible here, and unfortunately things are getting worse.

Thanks for the reports, Sunshine Kitty and Patty Wagon.

I just LOST a long, windy response about my feelings on the complex issues involved here, so I guess I wasn't meant to bloviate.

To answer your question, Sunshine Kitty, Chicago may have been the most diverse march in the country. Although most participants were Mexicans and other Latinos, we also have large numbers of undocumented Polish, Irish and many, many others from around the world. A huge number of civic and religious organizations participated in the march (including Muslim groups and full Catholic support). The Illinois Restaurant Association had a highly visible presence (many restaurants closed in support of their staffs), so I was pleased to see my own industry represented. Our (highly political) magnet school marched as a group--there was about 50% absence of both teachers and students back at the school. (My husband went to the school and did a program for those "left behind.")

I was actually MORE surprised that the "usual suspects" Movement people DIDN'T participate in the original Chicago rally back in March. That rally was promoted almost exclusively on Spanish-language radio and everyone was caught by surprise--even the organizers--when the turnout was so huge. But this time, anticipation was thick in the air, and the whole city was braced for it.

As we parted, tears came to my eyes. In the last few dark years, I have sometimes despaired of my country’s future and questioned its citizens' commitment to the freedom their ancestors bought so dearly.
Me too, as we've discussed. The state of civil liberties in the US is frightening.


But after witnessing the determination and enthusiasm and political savvy on display today, I feel that the republic will be in good hands in coming years.
Unfortunately, this is where I must respectfully part company with you, because I could wish for a much better cause to channel all that energy into. Both my hometown and the town I live in now have large illegal immigrant populations and I have seen the downside. In the case of my home town, many of these people work "under the table" as cooks, landscapers, and day laborers for individuals and businesses in surrounding, wealthier, towns (where, incidentally, the illegals couldn't hope to afford to live). Believe me, there are heavy corporate and political interests behind those 'spontaneous' 500,000-person demonstrations.

The nice rich folks are happy to pay $3 per hour to have their lawns mowed, but when it comes to paying the taxes that provide medical care for these people, schooling for their children, and policing of the inevitable uptick in crime? That's someone else's (meaning the 'poor' towns') problem. Why should my family, who still lives there, pay taxes to school the children of illegal immigrants who don't pay taxes themselves?

Your thread title (and you're in good company with the mainstream media on this) encourages a specious assumption which I can't let slide - that people who don't agree with the marches that have recently taken place oppose "immigrants". I certainly don't - I've worked, studied, and socialized with immigrants for years, and am only 3rd or 4th generation American myself. But there's a right way and a wrong way to immigrate, and I can't countenance rewarding the wrong way at the expense of the right way.

I respect the compassion of the posters in this thread, but illegal immigration costs Americans jobs, depresses overall wages, increases crime (although more illegals are probably victims than perpetrators), and adds to the tax burden. You can feel good about folks getting opportunities that aren't available in their own countries, but don't forget that it's coming out of your wallet. Don't know about any of you, but I can't spare it.

I'm the last person who would discourage anyone from speaking their opinion - on the Fuselage or in the town square - even if I disagree wholeheartedly, as I do in this case. So, props to you for standing out there and being heard. More people should. I just feel like the other side needs to be represented in the discussion (and I mean here and in general), and hopefully my post has made a few people think.

Cheers.

I respect the compassion of the posters in this thread, but illegal immigration costs Americans jobs, depresses overall wages, increases crime (although more illegals are probably victims than perpetrators), and adds to the tax burden. You can feel good about folks getting opportunities that aren't available in their own countries, but don't forget that it's coming out of your wallet. Don't know about any of you, but I can't spare it.

That is exactly why I advocate making the illegals, legal. As for American jobs, unemployment is very low right now, and many illegal immigrants work jobs that Americans don't want. I've worked with Mexican crews first hand doing asbestos work in New York City and I know that there are hardly any Americans that work in asbestos removal, most of them are immigrants (in my experience). In my area there is a huge population of illegal Brazilians. My feeeling is make these immigrants legal and tax them, so they don't tax our systems. I have no problem with immigrants whatsoever, and I really don't think they are taking jobs away from Americans. I just want to make them legal, so we can gain the tax revenue from them.

That is exactly why I advocate making the illegals, legal. As for American jobs, unemployment is very low right now, and many illegal immigrants work jobs that Americans don't want. I've worked with Mexican crews first hand doing asbestos work in New York City and I know that there are hardly any Americans that work in asbestos removal, most of them are immigrants (in my experience). In my area there is a huge population of illegal Brazilians. My feeeling is make these immigrants legal and tax them, so they don't tax our systems. I have no problem with immigrants whatsoever, and I really don't think they are taking jobs away from Americans. I just want to make them legal, so we can gain the tax revenue from them.
But what message does that send to the folks who want to come to this country, but follow the rules? I've had friends from other countries who have had a devil of a time getting work visas here, because they followed the law and went through channels. It's kind of a slap in the face to someone like that to say that anyone who can beg, bribe, or tunnel their way across the border should get squatters' rights.

I don't completely buy the notion that there are jobs that no Americans want. There are certainly jobs that few Americans will want at the rock-bottom wages being offered. The purveyors of these jobs can work to make their businesses more efficient in order to pay higher wages, they can abide on lower margins and accept smaller stakeholder returns, or they can lobby for low-wage foreign labor. (Which keeps wages low for everyone else by the laws of economics.) Like electric current, employers take the path of least resistance and go for the cheap labor. Also, unemployment statistics are notoriously skewed, and there's a trickle-down effect with high-skilled jobs being exported - anyone 'wants' a job that will feed his family.

This amnesty fracas is a front in the ever-ongoing class warfare, and you (by 'you' I mean not just you but all the well-intentioned amnesty supporters) might not be fighting on the side you think you are.

I understand your point, but I don't feel there is an easy solution to the problem. If they are made legal, then at least we could get some tax dollars off of them. I don't know, it's a tricky situation. Maybe I'm just a bleeding heart liberal. :p

I understand your point, but I don't feel there is an easy solution to the problem. If they are made legal, then at least we could get some tax dollars off of them. I don't know, it's a tricky situation.

No question. One of those things where it's impossible to keep everyone happy. I just think it's important to hear all points of view, and especially for those who hold certain legitimate views not to feel intimidated out of expressing them for fear of accusations of bigotry or xenophobia. (Not that anyone here was doing that. The media, on the other hand...)


Maybe I'm just a bleeding heart liberal. :p
Some hand in hand, some gathered together in bands
The bleeding hearts and artists make their stand.

:) You're a good person with good intentions. So am I. (Yikes, hope the Others don't get us!) Obviously we have different stands on this particular issue, but I respect where you're coming from and think it's important for people to be exposed to all angles. You and LMM and others have made me think, although I can't say I've changed my opinion materially. The world is a better place when people speak their minds, yes, and disagree.

I'm with Rameses on this one. My wife is Hispanic, but only the first American-born generation in her family - her father and mother immigrated from Mexico. And they did the hard (read legal) way. They had to jump through the hoops to make it right.

So I asked her, and them, the other day what they thought of all of this, wanting to get their opinion on things. Immediately they went to the taxes issue - they immigrated legally, so legally they are bound to pay taxes, so they agree that it isn't right for tax-paying citizens to take up the slack in paying for healthcare, etc. for illegal immigrants.

So I asked them exactly what you said previously, PhillyGirl, about making the illegal immigrants legal, therefore solving that issue. This didn't sit right with them either, and by their own mouths they said that when they immigrated to the US, one of the pledges they had to make was to follow all of the "laws of the land". As of this moment, there are legal ways to immigrate into the US (even though that's what's under debate). So they feel that making the illegal immigrants automatically legal circumvents the established laws.

So I'd agree with them. And it feels strange (to me) to say that people who've broken established laws to get here now find it appropriate (and encouraged by the mass media) to argue against those laws. A citizen has certain unalienable rights granted by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. But until you are recognized as a citizen of the government (whether it's here or elsewhere), you can't lay claim to those rights.

Anyway, that's my opinion on the matter.

ETA: Correcting grammar mistakes (I hate that!).

Derek and Rams, I completely see your point of view also. And I agree that people that get into the country illegally shouldn't necessarily be rewarded w/ citizenship. It seems like the only way to really resolve the issue is get tough on immigration, find all the illegals and send them home, and shore up the borders. Unfortunatly, the more we try to prevent illegal entry, the more it seems to happen. I can understand that illegal immigrants, from any country, are breaking the law and shouldn't be rewarded. :unsure: I just think that making the illegal immigrants that are already here legal and then shore up the borders and get tough on immigration, would be a band-aid to the problem. I guess in my opinion, that band-aid fix would be the best solution. I'm certainly open to discuss other solutions.

Edited to add, here's a link to a good article discussing both sides of the issue. http://www.theweekmagazine.com/article.aspx?id=1394

I'm a reservation born Cherokee and I find this whole debate amusing.

Personally I don't care. What's one more group of people coming here and making themselves at home? Its not like it hasn't been done before. :wink1:

I'm a reservation born Cherokee and I find this whole debate amusing.

Personally I don't care. What's one more group of people coming here and making themselves at home? Its not like it hasn't been done before. :wink1:

Yeah, I guess to you we are all illegal immigarnts. :p My background is mixed with English and German/Swiss (Amish) from colonial times to Irish, Spanish, and more German from the late 19th to early 20th Century.

This is definitley a hot issue, I have no problem with legal immigration that is what the United States has been built on, butI have 3 things about it I would like to say about the recent activity.

1. I live outside of Los Angeles and the day of the march was wonderful for me, there was no traffic, my school district (lost) saved alot of money on students that did not attend classes, and our emergency rooms were empty, there was no wait.

2. My parents were immigrants from Hungary, and they worked there butts off to learn English, take the required tests, and pay taxes to become a United States citizen, and they were so proud of their accomplishment.

3. I went to Japan to work for a year, I needed a green card to work there, and I needed to check in with immigration every 3 months to renew my work permit. I as a non citizen paid 20% in income tax (I made very good wages) and the citizens of Japan paid 10% income tax. I was not a citizen so why should I get special priveledges. Healthcare there was wonderful and I got great treatment when I needed it, but that was paid through my employer. If I wanted to communicate I needed to speak Japanese, so I learned enough to get by for a year! Yes, there were a few people who wanted to practice English, but for the most part I needed to learn the language. And the signs in the cities were in Japanese, a few of them had English translations but again, I needed to learn the language. Since then as I have been back in the states, I have had 2 children, one of them has cerebal palsy, and I can not get him treated like he needs because we "make to much money" and insurance does not cover anything, and I see illegal immigrant children with the same disablity getting much more care than my child, without spending a dime, and let me tell you, we pay alot in taxes and insurance premiums.

Is reform needed, yes, but if illegal immigrants want to become citizens they need to fullfill the requirments my parents did. First off learn the languauge of the country, English and second go through the legal channels of becomming a citizen. And not that this would happen but I would love for citizens to pay a flat tax of 10% and non-citizens to pay a flat rate of 20%. It seems only fair to me.

rmsings, check out that link to the article I provided.

The Senate bill would create a "guest-worker" program—an idea President Bush has personally championed—and grant legal status to the 11 million illegal immigrants already in the U.S. If they pay a $2,000 fine and back taxes, have no criminal record, and speak English, these immigrants could apply for citizenship in 11 years.
This seems reasonable enough to me. Is this kind of what you were thinking about?

sounds great to me, but I still would like while they are trying to attain legal status that they pay 20% tax and I pay 10%:) . The unfortunate thing in all this from the people I have spoken to who are on the other side is they do not want to wait, they feel they deserve it now without following the rules, and that makes me very sad.
There is only one other problem though, and it is hardly ever mentioned. If someone is working here illegally for wages that "I" would not work for, when they do become citizens those wages will be mandated to being minimum wage, so then who at that point will work for the wages that they are being paid now?

I'm a reservation born Cherokee and I find this whole debate amusing.

Personally I don't care. What's one more group of people coming here and making themselves at home? Its not like it hasn't been done before. :wink1:

Exactly, and I say, come one, come all. All I'm saying is if one wishes to emigrate to another country, they must adhere to that country's laws.

It seems like the only way to really resolve the issue is get tough on immigration, find all the illegals and send them home, and shore up the borders. Unfortunatly, the more we try to prevent illegal entry, the more it seems to happen. I can understand that illegal immigrants, from any country, are breaking the law and shouldn't be rewarded. :unsure: I just think that making the illegal immigrants that are already here legal and then shore up the borders and get tough on immigration, would be a band-aid to the problem. I guess in my opinion, that band-aid fix would be the best solution. I'm certainly open to discuss other solutions.

It would fix it in the short-term I suppose, but it would make the effort taken on by others, such as my in-laws, worth nothing. It would also be difficult to draw a line in the sand and say, "After such-and-such a date, anyone coming across our borders will be considered illegal," when someone just crossed the day before. I don't think they should necessarily should send all the illegal immigrants home (this is where I can't be dogmatic about it), but a choice needs to be given to each and every one of them: 1) go through the necessary steps NOW, or 2) return to the country from which you came.

It was great to come back here and find so many thoughtful replies. Thank you all!

Here are my thoughts on some of the issues you have raised.

The downside of illegal immigration: I do understand the points you have raised, and I agree to some extent. Paul Krugman (whom I respect) says his calculations show that undocumented workers depress the wages of the poor by about 8%; others have calculated about 4%. And I do understand why some African-Americans feel bitter when they see generation after generation of new Americans “becoming white” and moving up the social and economic ladder, while they remain stubbornly “nonwhite” after hundreds of years of toil. I understand why employers are attracted to the idea of a compliant, hardworking workforce that doesn’t dare complain. I applaud the efforts of UNITE-HERE, SEIU, Farm Labor Organizing Committee and other unions to unionize the undocumented, after generations of demonizing them.

We put out the welcome mat: What I can’t understand is the anger some people feel at those who take advantage of opportunities to work here, particularly when our policies (such as NAFTA) have impoverished them in their home countries. Our laws make it easy for employers to hire the undocumented without repercussions. (Employers are not even SUPPOSED to question funny-looking social security cards.) The system, unsurprisingly, is set up to leave employers blameless. As Molly Ivins says, the way to stop illegal immigration is to arrest, publicly and on TV, the CEO of a Fortune 500 company who employs a janitor and a blonde soccer mom who employs a babysitter. Then the employment market would dry up pretty quick.

The English language: Everybody gets worked up about this one. In my experience, there is NOBODY who “doesn’t want to learn English.” (If anybody here knows such a person, I’d be curious to hear about it.) It’s just really, really difficult to find the energy and time to learn a language if you’re working long hours at minimum wage and no benefits and raising a bunch of kids while trying to survive life in the shadows. And the supply of English classes is far, far less than the demand. (So I would invite anyone who thinks English is important to volunteer to teach or tutor--there are opportunities everywhere.) Also, 99% of the people who are adamant about English are monolingual, so they have NO IDEA how difficult it is to learn another language as an adult. The second generation ALL learn English and the third generation, lamentably, often speaks ONLY English. (My children have been in English/Spanish dual language education from the age of four, so I know families from both English-language and Spanish-language homes. The real problem at our school is that the pull of the outside English-speaking world is so strong, even for Spanish-speaking families, that it’s hard to reinforce the Spanish enough in school. Lower grades, once taught 50-50, are now taught 80% in Spanish to give a strong foundation, with more English introduced in upper grades.) I do agree that it’s quite helpful for a nation to have a common language (but not essential, as countries such as Switzerland demonstrate). I might feel more strongly if our American language were Gaelic or Lakota or even French, but English is not exactly an endangered language. English instruction IS important, but I think the monolingualism of native-born Americans is just as big a problem, and a big part of the fear factor.

ETA: There's a wonderful Ariel Dorfman essay today in WaPo on this topic:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/05/AR2006050501728.html

Taxes: You’ve heard the saying, “The only sure things in life are death and taxes.” As far as I can see, that’s the case. All “regular” employment requires a social security card, and fake social security cards are laughably easy to obtain. Therefore, everyone employed in a regular job has taxes and FICA taken out of his/her paycheck. But undocumented workers don’t get Medicare, they don’t get Social Security and they don’t get refunds of tax overpayments. One of our dirty little secrets is that undocumented workers are providing approximately a 10% subsidy to the Social Security system. The fund would be WORSE off if not for their contributions.

It’s true that many immigrants are part of the informal economy--day laborers, house cleaners, babysitters, handymen, ice-cream vendors, etc. Workers in the informal economy (illegal immigrants, legal immigrants and native-born) generally are paid in cash, and tend not to pay taxes. But that’s an issue of informal employment, not the undocumented per se. Also, remember, most low-wage workers pay only FICA and don’t make enough to pay actual income taxes. They get taxes BACK as part of the Earned Income Tax Credit. Since undocumented workers don’t qualify for Medicare or Social Security, I can’t see the fairness of them contributing to FICA. And the undocumented certainly don’t get the Earned Income Tax Credit. So only a highly compensated worker who is paid in cash can escape income taxes--and there aren’t many people in that category.

Local services are paid for through sales taxes and property taxes. Everyone who buys anything pays sales tax. Property tax is paid by homeowners and, for renters, is reflected in the amount of the rent charged by the property owner, who must cover expenses. So as far as I can see, the only way to avoid property tax is to live in your car or under a bridge. Except for the homeless, undocumented workers are paying their share for schools, libraries, fire and police departments, parks and other local services.

Medical care: Where is this alleged free medical care? Who’s offering it? I’ve certainly never seen or heard of such a thing, though some states make efforts to see that children at least get some rudimentary medical care. Poor people who aren’t on Medicaid use charity hospitals and clinics and are billed for the services. Of course the institutions don’t expect to see much of the money, but the clients ARE billed and are expected to cough up what they can, when they can. What’s more, anyone without insurance is billed at an extremely high rate, often three times as much as what an HMO pays for the same services, because the HMO has made a volume arrangement with the provider. The uninsured are actually subsidizing the rest of us!

You don’t want to get me started on the pathetic state of our healthcare system. With our privatized system, we pay TWICE as much as other advanced countries and get far worse results. A great deal of the cost of our system is the people who are trying to stick someone else with the bill--all those bean counters at the hospitals, HMOs and insurance companies. What’s more, even the rich get pathetic medical care in this country. Did you hear about the study recently published in Lancet, the British medical journal? The researchers studied comparable groups of white, middle-aged British and American patients. The UK is one of the societies that spends half what we do on medical care but gets far, far better results (longevity, cardiovascular disease, cancer, diabetes, you name it). The researchers divided each national group by income and found that AT EACH INCOME LEVEL the Americans had shockingly poorer health and poorer outcomes, so the 40+ million uninsured are not the only problem here; the lack of focus on preventive healthcare is also a huge issue.

The practical issues: I don’t understand how anyone thinks we could deport 12 million people, even if it seems like a good idea. How would you find them? Who would arrest them? Where would you get the buses, trains, planes to get them out of the country? Who would pay the transportation costs? What would you do with their kids who are citizens? Would you send people back to countries where they’re likely to get shot when they get off the plane? Meanwhile, how would the crops get picked?

Who would make better citizens: Part of what I was trying to convey (gently) in my original letter-to-the-editor was how impressed I was at the immigrants I saw Monday. These hardworking, joyous, family-oriented, politically aware strivers, chanting “USA!” without a hint of jingoism, seem to me to be better candidates to be good citizens than the many sleepwalking native-born Americans who would rather vote for the next American Idol than the next American President, who can find neither Iraq nor Louisiana on a map, who would rather think about Brad and Angelina than our country’s spiral into fascism. Immigrants are ready to step out of the shadows and claim their place. They come from countries with a long tradition of class struggle. They know the meaning of the word solidarity, whether they pronounce it solidaridad or solidarnocz. Their children, in most cases, are already citizens. I think they may be our best hope for the future.

I work in a poultry processing plant in Alabama. A high percentage of the employees here are hispanic - most are not legal in my opinion. There is a huge turnover in workers - every week, we get 1 - 2 groups of new employees hire in, & out of all of those - we're lucky if 1 stays a week. I'm speaking of the young whites in the 18 - 30 age group.
The work is not that hard - it's just that the people in that age group either believe they're too good to work in a chicken plant, or they're too lazy to have a real job.

This is the reason that the illegals wont ever be rounded up & set back to mexico - 'cause whether we care to admit it or not - we need them. I think they need to locate all of the illegals & instead of sending them back - give them the choice of being made citizens & paying taxes or going back.

I know that most of them are good people & are just seeking a better life for their familys,
but it makes my blood boil that I'm paying through the nose on taxes, & they pay NOTHING and the government does NOTHING about it!

I first need to mention that I am extremely uneducated in this subject, even so, I do have my own feelings about it.

I have no problem, what so ever, with immigrants coming to America in hopes of providing a better life for themselves and their families. Isn't that how most of us got here in the first place. I have no idea how difficult it would be to give all the illegal immigrants a choice, to become citizens or go back to there own country, (isn't any solution going to be difficult?) but I think it's what needs to happen. If the Americans already living here need to follow the laws of the land so do the people who are not Americans but want to live and work here, which means they need to become citizens..........through the proper channels.

In Mexico, it is illegal to protest on their streets unless one is a Mexican National. I support that law and wish the US would make the same law. I have nothing against immigrants who have attained citizenship legally but after seeing the marches it left a bad taste in my mouth that illegals should try to claim rights that are constitutionally only given to American citizens. What's to stop every other country and their citizens from trying the same thing?

JMO.

Where did you get your information about Mexico, Clareece? I think PLENTY of foreign students participate in demonstrations in Mexico. How would police ID foreigners during a demonstration?

Heck, I remember Frida marching alongside Trotsky in the movie . . . and Trotsky was INVITED to Mexico.