Wow. Didn't see that coming. Was Henry telling the truth about coming to get Locke or was he messing with Locke's head (again)?

I believe him. Either way, Locke believes him and that's what matters because the decisions Locke makes from this point on while be based on that information. Locke is going to back on a personal destiny mission and put people at risk again. That's my guess.

I agree - Locke's felt for a long time that he was the only survivor of the plane crash to really "understand" the island. I think that his personal destiny and fate will definitely come into play, and we'll have another Locke's faith versus Jack's science dichotomy again. The interesting part will be to see if Locke lets anyone in on this tidbit of info. He says all the time how he and Jack need to trust each other, but then keeps things from Jack - I think this is another piece of information that Locke will keep to himself until the time is right... perhaps when they find the camp that Michael was talking about?

Since Henry is a master manipulator, I am leaning toward the notion that he was lying to Locke. He was not coming to get John, but, by telling him that he was, Henry has re-solidified Locke's commitment to helping him, or at least taking his side in any debate about killing or torturing him some more.
John would have been less likely to stand up for Henry after Henry tried to kill AL, despite his earlier promise. Henry said that his mission was to bring John over in order to re-establish their secret pledge.

I tend not to believe fake Henry on this point. However, I can also see how his story has some validity.

The reason I do not believe him is becuase he was helping Locke at a time when there was still doubt as to what he was. He figured that Ana, Sayid, and Charlie would find his balloon and come back to say he was legit. So, he had a reason to keep up his act at that point. I think he might have just been telling Locke what he thought he wanted to hear to gain some leverage and maybe attempt an escape.

On the other hand, it is possible that the Others knew they wanted Locke. After he saw Smokie for the first time maybe the Others knew Locke was a "good person." Then in the Season 1 finale Smokie tried to take Locke and he wasn't afraid. So, if Smokie is controlled by the Others and not some out of control security system, I would suspect that there may be some validity to fake Henry's story.

I think it’s difficult to tell at this point. We do know that they take those individuals they feel are good and leave behind those they feel are bad. We also know that Ethan failed in his mission to make the list of good individuals to take. It’s been speculated that Henry’s job was to complete what Ethan had failed to do. So more then likely he came for Locke and a bunch of others (mostly red shirts) but of the people he’s actually gotten to meet Locke is the only one who might fit the bill so far.

My problem is that Henry tells Locke he's one of the "good" ones. It can be argued that Locke contributed to Boone's death so what is the Others criteria to be a "good" person?

Does "good" mean "useful" for their purpose?

Does "good" mean "useful" for their purpose?

I think that's a given, The Others have a rather unique sense of Good vs Evil, or we are being tricked so much, probably both.

Maybe the Others can tell that Locke has been "in tune" with the island from very early on. He has that faith in the possibility that the Others aren't evil, and that may make him more attractive to them, maybe as a recruit?

Henry is full of monster crap ... and Locke is like the lonely girls in high school who put out in order to feel like they're popular with the guys. Locke would follow anyone into the pits of he!! who said they loved him like they meant it.

The whole story has taken a very sad and tragic turn.

Excellent thread and the arguments on both sides make sense. I think this one could go either way, as far as if Henry was telling the truth about "I was coming for you, John".

However, I just want to say that I don't necessarily agree that Locke was taken in by this. And even if he is open to the possibility that the others really were coming for him, I don't think he necessarily feels that is a good thing, or part of his destiny. In the scene in which Jack apologizes to Locke, Locke says he "couldn't agree more" that the others are basically full of boar doo-doo and you can't trust anything they say. I agree that Locke is vulnerable to being manipulated because he desperately needs to believe in destiny, and he senses in particular that his destiny is entwined somehow with the island, and he believes that there is something very beautiful and healing at the core of the island. Locke, due to his sad childhood/history, also desperately needs a sense of belonging. It is all tied together. However, due to the same sad history, Locke has become a survivor, and very wise. He is an interesting blend of a faithful, almost childlike person, and a cynical, strong survivor who isn't easily fooled. These two aspects of his personality seem at odds, yet when they are in balance, they complement each other to create the wonderful aspects of Locke's character that I love.

I think that, while Henry is indeed a master manipulator and it seems that the others as a "culture" are as well (the elaborate, well-thought-out fake outfits/beards, the way Ethan manipulated Claire and got her to trust him via a combo of drugs and fake concern, when really they were going to brutally kill her just to get Aaron out of her body and into their clutches, etc.), and Locke is vulnerable to being tantalized to a point by that, I think that ultimately Locke is nobody's fool. Not anymore. Not after Daddy dearest and the whole kidney thing.

I do think there is a potential for the others "turning" Locke for a while, but I believe that ultimately, Locke will realize when he is being manipulated and he will learn to distinguish what is truly beautiful and wonderful about the island, and what (or who) is chilling.

I tend to think that, regarding this specific issue of Henry saying he was coming for Locke, it really tantalized Locke, big time, yet he realized full well that Henry could be playing him. He realizes how treacherous Henry is, I think. Also, he never succombed to Henry's attempts to pit him against Jack. Not sure what the thing was about when Locke knocked all the dishes off the counter in a rage after one such attempt by Henry, but I think it was NOT that Locke was upset with Jack, as Henry wanted, but that Locke realized that Henry was attempting to play him, and THAT enraged him. It was shortly after that that Locke went to Ana and said there was a "man in my hatch and I want him out".

Locke is vulnerable...but only to a point. I think his wisdom and perception trumps his deep need to have a destiny and a place--and family/people--to which he belongs.

I don't think he's buying what Henry is selling.

.

I don't think he's buying what Henry is selling.

I certainly hope the above is true & not below. I would like to think that locke meant waht he said to jack. That he agreed completely that they cant trust a word the others said. but...at this point...its hard to tell if henry played locke & now locke is playing jack...or that henry's plan backfired & locke is now on board w/ jacks thoughts on the others. It is especially hard to tell when just after that convo....locke did NOT come forward to tell jack what happened between ana & henry. Was he protecting ana or henry?
Henry is full of monster crap ... and Locke is like the lonely girls in high school who put out in order to feel like they're popular with the guys. Locke would follow anyone into the pits of he!! who said they loved him like they meant it.

The whole story has taken a very sad and tragic turn.

THANK YOU to the OP not ending his post with "Thoughts?" or "Ideas?".

At first I thought Henry was messing with him, but the more I think about it I think Henry WOULD take Locke with him. He wasn't coming for Locke, no way, but an ancillary objective might be to take Locke along if the oppourtunity presents itself. Locke would be a true believer, following every order for the greater good of the collective mindset the other's seem to have.

I love Locke, but the problem is, he has a history of trusting the wrong people. That's why I think Fenry is lying.

Gale lied. That's what he does. I think Locke is buying into it, because he has to believe there's a deep reason for him to be on the island.

I think Henry was there for Locke. It's obvious the Others have been keeping their eye on the survivors and most likely they were intrigued by Locke's connection to the island, etc. Don't forget the Others tried to take Eko. But, I do not think Locke is interstested nor do I believe he'll be tempted by them, at all. Especially if he thinks Henry killed Ana and perhaps, Libby. Even if he finds out Michael did the killing, I still don't see Locke wanting anything to do with the Others.

We all know that our friend fenry isnt the most trustworthy person, but when he tells locke that he was sent on a mission for locke, is he saying it to just get Locke riled up, or is it the truth? I mean, maybe if fenry was telling the truth, Locke is being recruited to be the next leader of "the others". Locke does seem to have an undeniable connection between him and the island.

I believe him this time. But I think he had a list of things to do also.

1. Kill Ana
2. Bring back John Locke
3. Grab some Fig Newtons
4. Don't get caught

I think this time he may be telling the truth. It does seem to fit in with everything else they've said about good people, etc. But how exactly was Henry supposed to convince Locke to go with him? Why didn't Henry say something sooner about it?

That might go back to the speech about having his back, just before Jack and Sayid came in.

Henry is deceptive, manipulative and is playing with Locke.

Do I believe him? You have to be kidding. He is telling John Locke just what he knows John longs to hear. He is SPECIAL. Locke does not have the best intuition. How many people have used him in the past?

3. Grab some Fig Newtons

Actually, I think he was looking for the "Dharmalmars" from the supply drop :biggrin:

I thought Locke was being played. Henry has shown himself capable of lying, and I think he's telling Locke what he wants to hear.

Didn't like henry at first but now I love the character and the way he manipulates situations. I 'm not sure that he's lying ... this time... but then you never know.

I thought Locke was being played. Henry has shown himself capable of lying, and I think he's telling Locke what he wants to hear.

If he's manipulating Locke here.. he's doing a great job. But, I've always wondered why so few of our original Losties made the list or were taken, unlike the tailies side of the island. We know Ethan tried taking Claire before the list was complete... who else made that list?

if lockes falls for one of fenry's stories again i think i might shoot myself like michael did

if lockes falls for one of fenry's stories again i think i might shoot myself like michael did

LOL! As much as I can't stand Lockes' character, I can't get enough of him...

I love Locke. All survival skills and no wisdom makes for an interesting ride. I've been hating him for the longest time and then I realized that, despite what a lammo Locke can be, he's my favorite character. I'm such a sucker for flawed characters. I blame Stephen King.

If he's manipulating Locke here.. he's doing a great job. But, I've always wondered why so few of our original Losties made the list or were taken, unlike the tailies side of the island. We know Ethan tried taking Claire before the list was complete... who else made that list?

Wasn't Ethan supposed to be making the list? Could be that he got distracted by Claire and never bothered making his list.

Wasn't Ethan supposed to be making the list? Could be that he got distracted by Claire and never bothered making his list.

So who's watching the Losties and making the new 'list', one that Locke made?

We all know that our friend fenry isnt the most trustworthy person, but when he tells locke that he was sent on a mission for locke, is he saying it to just get Locke riled up, or is it the truth? I mean, maybe if fenry was telling the truth, Locke is being recruited to be the next leader of "the others". Locke does seem to have an undeniable connection between him and the island.
I think it is pretty obvious that Henry is manipulating Locke here, as he's been doing since whenever he came into the hatch. He's been setting up Locke to question his relation with Jack as well:


GALE: I just don't understand why you let the doctor call the shots.
LOCKE: No one calls the shots. Jack and I make decisions together.
GALE: Right, okay. My mistake.

[Locke leaves the armory, starts to do the dishes, and then loses his temper, swiping all the dishes on the counter to the ground.]

TBH we don't know what Henry's puprose is in the camp of the Losties, we only know that as soon as he was captured his main plan was to get out.

Wow, you guys have some real trust issues, don't you? Guess it makes sense she didn't tell you. I mean, with the two of you fighting all the time. Of course, if I was one of them -- these people that you seem to think are your enemies -- what would I do? Well, there'd be no balloon, so I'd draw a map to a real secluded place like a cave or some underbrush -- good place for a trap -- an ambush. And when your friends got there a bunch of my people would be waiting for them. Then they'd use them to trade for me. I guess it's a good thing I'm not one of them, huh? You guys got any milk?
Here he plants the thought of a trade into Jacks mind. Henry knows that Jack will do the trade himself, cause Jack trusts noone but himself, which would give Henry the opportunity to manipulate Locke to set him free.

GALE: Why do you let him talk to you like that? [Locke grabs him by the collar and forcefully takes him to the armory] Hey, wait, I...
LOCKE: Shut up!
GALE: John, I'm sorry. John?


Another instance of GALE spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt), only to make sure that John will NOT listen to Jacks 'reasonable' thoughts.

Almost certainly. Henry answers with words designed to manipulate. Whether to anger or ingratiate, he tells lies effortlessly.

Remember Fenry can hear everything that happens in the hatch and just from and he has played Locke before, when he was making those comments about Locke letting Jack tell him what to do. He is playing him again. As some one else here said Locke needs to feel special, he was crippled and now can walk, so he thinks there is a certain purpose for him. And unlike Locke, Fenry can read people pretty well, he knows how to manipulate.

Question - Did Henry tell Locke he was a "good one" OR did he say he was a "Goodwin" ?

We're taught to think that Henry is just manipulating Locke like all of the other times.. but maybe this time what Henry was saying is true. Hmm, maybe we'll never know.

[quote= 4. Don't get caught[/quote]

*laughing* Is that for the murder or the fig newton's? :)

If he's manipulating Locke here.. he's doing a great job. But, I've always wondered why so few of our original Losties made the list or were taken, unlike the tailies side of the island. We know Ethan tried taking Claire before the list was complete... who else made that list? 4thpoliceman, I love that you are using the DaVinci Code slogan.

Fenry basically used the same kind of thing with A-L, saying that Goodwin though she was worthy.

Now I don't know what Fenry meant, exactly, when he said to A-L "You killed 2 good people that were leaving you alone." (probably not exact quote.) Those 2 good people may have been specifically leaving A-L alone but they certainly weren't leaving the other Tailies alone.

A-L said Goodwin was going to kill her, that I believe.

Henry is deceptive, manipulative and is playing with Locke.

Amen! He has been from the beginning.

I think Henry/Michael might have also been trying to get the rest of the guns. If so, oddly enough, the fake abduction/Long Con would turn out to be a GOOD thing.

Now I don't know what Fenry meant, exactly, when he said to A-L "You killed 2 good people that were leaving you alone." (probably not exact quote.) Those 2 good people may have been specifically leaving A-L alone but they certainly weren't leaving the other Tailies alone.


what's really interesting, at least to me is the hidden whispers thread about what fakeHenry said to AL during their little confrontation.... something along the lines of...We're scientists...

I don't believe he is lying on this occasion. Many have speculated that Locke is one of the "good" ones, and I tend to agree. There is obviously a lot of debate over what "good" and "bad" mean. Regardless, if Henry was attempting to "convert" Locke, it would tie in to a lot of the psychological games Henry has been playing with him. It now seems obvious to me that while in the hatch, Henry was trying to create a rift between Jack and Locke. The "why do you let the doctor call the shots" and Locke's subsequent dish-hurling meltdown lead me to believe Henry had a deliberate purpose to his conduct. And what better way to convert someone to a new ideal than to first demonstrate the flaws in his existing ideal. Henry is a smart guy and he knows that loyalty goes along way especially among survivors of traumatic events like the crash and everything that has happened so far on the island. Why would he try to break the loyalies of the group unless his goal was to incite rebellion among the losties?

Sure, Henry is a very skilled and very prolific liar. I do not think, however, that this means that he is incapable of telling the truth, a position upon which most that don't believe Henry in this instance base their entire premise.

It's hard to believe Not Henry, but Locke had an interesting question. If Fenry didn't have plans that involved Locke - why wouldn't he just run away while Locke was trapped? If he was willing to kill Ana, why didn't he kill Locke?

Inquiring minds want to know...guess we'll all find out later. You gotta love Michael Emerson. He is doing such a great job.

Henry plays Locke like a fiddle, everytime. And yet... if Henry has spoken to Walt at any length he would have heard many things about Mr. Locke, including Locke's secret to Walt about how the Island is a place of miracles. That could be intriguing to the Others.
Still, I sincerely doubt that he was traipsing about in the jungle looking for John Locke. I suspect that he got caught on purpose as a part of his master plan. He's so delightfully diabolical!

It's hard to believe Not Henry, but Locke had an interesting question. If Fenry didn't have plans that involved Locke - why wouldn't he just run away while Locke was trapped? If he was willing to kill Ana, why didn't he kill Locke?

Inquiring minds want to know...guess we'll all find out later. You gotta love Michael Emerson. He is doing such a great job. Fenry's might have been caught on purpose and he wasn't finished causing trouble yet. He has won Locke over and not doing anything to Locke has just sealed it. I think making sure A-L was a casuality was part of Fenry's mission.

When the others sent people to 'take' the tailies they sent small teams. The only time anyone has been 'taken' buy an other operating along was when Ethan took Claire/Charlie. Methinks if notHenry had been coming for Locke, he would have been coming with 2-3 other others, unless he had planned to be an infiltrator like Ethan.

When the others sent people to 'take' the tailies they sent small teams. The only time anyone has been 'taken' buy an other operating along was when Ethan took Claire/Charlie. Methinks if notHenry had been coming for Locke, he would have been coming with 2-3 other others, unless he had planned to be an infiltrator like Ethan. Or Goodwin.

Sam G - Goodwin didn't wasn't on a 'take' mission was he? More of a 'find out who's good' mission.

My point is it's unlikely that notHenry came to take Locke because he was alone.

Sam G - Goodwin didn't wasn't on a 'take' mission was he? More of a 'find out who's good' mission.

My point is it's unlikely that notHenry came to take Locke because he was alone. Ethan wasn't supposed to take, he was supposed to make a list. I don't think Fenry was supposed to come and take Locke, I think he was on a mission like Ethan. Maybe Fenry came to finish the job Ethan was sent to do.

I think you're right.

I don't understand the name Fenry? is it short for fake Henry?

I think you're right.

I don't understand the name Fenry? is it short for fake Henry? Yes Fenry=Fake Henry.

ML

Bearded Man: What the hell happened? You were supposed to make the list and then bring her in. Was I unclear?
Ethan: It's not my fault. They knew I wasn't on the plane. They had a manifest.
Bearded Man: What am I supposed to tell him? You know what he's going to do when he finds out. Damn it, Ethan.

I think he might be telling Locke the truth this time. I'm thinking back to Locke's flash backs, and I can't remember anything I would really qualify as "bad". Except for maybe getting the money for his "Dad". Was that his "Dad's" money or was it those thugs'? I can't remember. It would explain Fenry not leaving when he had the chance. No way he got caught by Russo on accident though.

I'm new to this site, but I've been going here for a while. I love it. Everytime Lost ends this is straight where I go, 'cus you guys have awesome ideas. Keep it up

Here's my big question...

Why didn't Zeke just take Locke, if in fact they want him so badly, when they had their chance out at the "line" during The Hunting Party?

I mean...they had Jack, Sawyer & Locke disarmed...they had Kate as a hostage. Why not give them Kate back...but say..."Mr. Locke...you're coming with us". Why risk one of their own a few episodes later by attempting to abduct Locke with one single guy?

I mean, there were a dozen Others out at the "line"...armed Others...(which Fenry wasn't when he was captured by Rousseau)...Once they got the Losties disarmed, wouldn't it have been a lot easier to take Locke there?

Doesn't make much sense. Do they want it to look like these adult Losties they abduct just "disappear", like what happened with Claire & Charlie...and Cindy? Like the Others don't want any evidence of these abductions? Do they not want Jack & Co. to know they have Locke or something?

They obviously have no qualms about showing themselves when they are going after the children...Walt...the Tailie children...they abducted the kids in front of everyone.

Still scratching my head over here.

remember in the first season how locke went out hunting with ethan before it was revealed that ethan was an other.

He could've told HIM about Locke when he returned with Claire.

So Henry could be telling the truth...

But then again the others seems mad about them finding the hatch....

I thought Locke was being played. Henry has shown himself capable of lying, and I think he's telling Locke what he wants to hear.
I couldn't agree more. I like the character of "Fenry" but everytime he opens his mouth, I always find myself questioning *why* he says what he says (and to whom). I'm so suspicious of this character and I can't decide what exactly his "mission" or purpose is with the Losties. Did he intentionally get captured? Why? The writers are either doing a phenomenal job scripting Henry, or a very poor one.

I think its pretty clear that Henry has been trying to win over Locke since he was first thrown in the armory. He almost never seems to manipulate Jack (except for planting the idea of a trade in his mind), only Locke. The second he said "I was coming for you, you're one of the good ones" (or whatever the exact quote was) my first thought is that he is, of course, lying. But if so, why??

As someone else pointed out, there have been several times John Locke could have been taken with relative ease, whether it be the confrontation scene in the Hunting Party, or any of the countless times Locke was alone hunting in the jungle (and even if Boone has been with him, I don't think the Others would have had much trouble overpowering Boone).

But it was also noted that Henry *must* have some purpose related to Locke, since he didn't simply escape when Locke was trapped under the door; he stayed and tried to score some massive trust points with Locke. So if Henry was being honest when he made that statement, why would the Others wait until now to take John Locke?
Any thoughts?

Here's my big question...

Why didn't Zeke just take Locke, if in fact they want him so badly, when they had their chance out at the "line" during The Hunting Party?


Yeah, it would lend support to the idea that fakeHenry was just playing with Locke's head, unless fakeHenry was sent to 'confirm' Locke was 'good'.

Why didn't Zeke just take Locke, if in fact they want him so badly, when they had their chance out at the "line" during The Hunting Party?


Maybe it's the difference betwenn the children and the adult(s)....the free will thing...maybe an adult has to come to "the dark side" willingly. Perhaps Fenry was supposed to befriend Locke (which he did in spite of the circumstances) and convince him to come of his own accord. The kids could be more easily manipulated to accept their circumstances over a long period of time and easier to contain while that happened. McGyver would be tougher to keep there if he had been captured...



:biggrin::biggrin:



HH

Yeah, it would lend support to the idea that fakeHenry was just playing with Locke's head, unless fakeHenry was sent to 'confirm' Locke was 'good'.

That's an interesting idea--I never thought of the possibility that Henry was a "fact-checker." He's obviously a well-qualified "shrink-type" with a penchant for manipulation. I suppose we must just continue to peel back his stinky onion layers...

out of all people that fenry was exposed to, locke seems (to fenry) like the only one that can get him out (it's "his" hatch). after telling locke that he's special henry pulls his classic face - it's a pretty good story to cut him loose.

First off, after reading every post in this whole thread so far, I have to say that I'm really enjoying the very intelligent comments and arguments going on here. Both sides are pretty plausible about Henry.

As for my opinion, I'm kind of leaning toward the idea that Henry might be telling the truth.

Maybe it's the difference betwenn the children and the adult(s)....the free will thing...maybe an adult has to come to "the dark side" willingly. Perhaps Fenry was supposed to befriend Locke (which he did in spite of the circumstances) and convince him to come of his own accord. The kids could be more easily manipulated to accept their circumstances over a long period of time and easier to contain while that happened. McGyver would be tougher to keep there if he had been captured...

This is a very good point. I really do believe that if Henry wanted to take Locke, he would con him into thinking it was his own idea, and that way it would just be so easy, just like Sawyer did and would do all the time. But they way Henry was captured, I think he was probably there to finish Ethan's job by making the list. Maybe along the line he discovered the potential of Locke, and how useful of a person he might be to the others, and is trying to con him over to join them.

But then again, on the other side of the argument:

out of all people that fenry was exposed to, locke seems (to fenry) like the only one that can get him out (it's "his" hatch). after telling locke that he's special henry pulls his classic face - it's a pretty good story to cut him loose.

That also seems very plausible. Sometimes it really looks like Henry just wants to escape. But we all know now how deceptive he is, to an extent that Henry may not really be trying to escape like he looks like but actually scheming to do something for the others.


I have good faith that we'll find out, all in good time.

I believe him this time. But I think he had a list of things to do also.

1. Kill Ana
2. Bring back John Locke
3. Grab some Fig Newtons
4. Don't get caught


3 and 4 :24: :24: :24:

This is what I think........

The first time I was heartbroken watching Lost was when the phone Helen suckered Locke into thinking that he was "special" to her, then totally let him down when he had built up this dream around her.

The second time I was heartbroken was when Locke's Dad suckered Locke into thinking that he was "special" to him, then totally deflated him with the kidney con.

NOW, Fenry is suckering Locke into thinking that he is "special" to the Others. On an episode soon, I'm afraid we'll see Locke do something drastic (ie betrayal of the Losties) in order to present himeself to the Others. They, in turn, will make it known that they really don't want Locke, that Fenry was using him. Locke's heart (and mine) will be broken again.

Locke's need to be "special" just really gets to me. I know he'll be dissappointed again and again and again, and yet he still falls for it. How sad.
100%
Just to add to what I wrote above, I don't think that what upset Locke so much about his dad was losing his kidney, it was losing the dream of "specialness."

Locke's need to be "special" just really gets to me. I know he'll be dissappointed again and again and again, and yet he still falls for it. How sad.
100%
Just to add to what I wrote above, I don't think that what upset Locke so much about his dad was losing his kidney, it was losing the dream of "specialness."

That's a great (and truly sad) observation about Locke. This repeat behavior would make us think that it could repeat itself again...unfortunately for Locke...He so wants to believe, doesn't he?:frown:


:biggrin::biggrin:


HH

Methinks Fenry's mission was identical to Ethan's

Ethan's Mission:
1) Infiltrate losties with bogus story
2) Make List (check it twice)
3) Snatch Claire

Fenry's Mission
1) Infiltrate losties with bogus story
2) Make List (check it twice)
3) Snatch Locke

The Others consider children good; I think that means easy to sway, simple
minded, innocent, naive. The adults they want would be like children, have
the childlike simple minded thinking, naive, easily swayed.

Locke would play into their admiration comments, compliments, charm;
another one who would be naive is Hurley, sweet, simple minded.

The adults who are cynical, suspicious, on guard, would not be on
the list, imo. But, if "the Island" did creative things to bring the
past up, as it does, and change their thinking, they might convert
some of the adults who are not as easy to sway, such as Rose
and Bernard. Since Rose believes the Island's magic has healed
her, and Bernard is all for that, they would be the next challenge
to sway.

It is totally a con all the way. The Others want them, for purposes,
and they will con them in order to get them; if they can't, they
are expendable.

Question is, what do the Others want them for?

Yes, Henry Gale the Fake is lying. Also by the way he praise the leader, there's a good chance that he is actually the Other's Glorious Leader.

Whenever the Others talk about good people I always think of that Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man".

Whenever the Others talk about good people I always think of that Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man".

Geez, I hope the people they've captured haven't been eaten! :eek2:
But the children would taste extra "good" being so young and tender. :p

I do think NotHenry was lying his butt off!! If he really feels that "him" is gonna order his death, then he needs allies about as bad as he needs oxygen and food and water. He didn't kill Locke because he was still pretending to be HENRY at that time. Tipping his hand by killing Locke would have been bad form, huh?

But Locke won't see it. He's a total sucker.

Njc------------------

Henry was playing Locke for sure, bu I didn't think Locke bought what he was saying about him being "Good." It was like he doubted what Henry was talking abouut. It sounded like he had a note of doubt in his voice. Now, what Locke decides to do after he's given it some thought - that's another matter.

I'd be really disappointed if Locke believes it, even though he asked a good question: why didn't Henry harm him in Lockdown? And why AL now?
The answer was clear to me: during Lockdown Henry hadn't been 'outed', and was pretending to be just another survivor. It was in his interest to pretend to be 'good' to the Losties at that time. But at the end of that epi, he was caught out. He'd been found guilty in a sense, so why should he bother playing nice with everyone now? In SOS, he stopped talking at all, and even provoked Jack: 'they'll never give you Walt." That's my explanation, anyway.

Locke does have a need to feel special, and that may just be his undoing. I mean, first Henry lies about who he is. He gives two different stories about the button, and now suddenly he's saying he came for Locke? Exactly what was he planning to do? Stroll up, say 'Hey, John, let's go' and take him back? Please! I think Henry was scared, and scrambling for allies. He reads Locke well, and he was just trying to manipulate him. Again.
But I was heartened to hear Locke tell Jack, 'I couldn't agree more' when Jack referred to the others as liars. Maybe he's realized that himself.

Whenever the Others talk about good people I always think of that Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man".


Exactly, MFerris, as in good slow-roasted with potatoes and carrots and an ice cold beer....;)


:biggrin::biggrin:


HH

And if you look at the larger situation, Fenry has every reason to KEEP on lying to these guys. If he has to deal with "Him" again, he's going to need information, and bargaining chips to save his own life. So if he can say to "Him"

"I really screwed with them sir. I have them twisted and turned, and Locke thinks he's a good one, and I have him doubting himself and the button, and I put in the seeds of division between Locke and Jack, and I found out all this stuff about the hatch and what they think it is"

That is, if he was even telling the truth about "him". For some reason, it's the only thing I believe he's honest about.

Njc------------------

they can have him I dont like Locke

I've always felt that Locke "qualified" with Them, but that he was far more interesting to study--and more useful to Their purposes--with the lostaways than with Them.

True or not, though, "Henry" TOLD Locke that to keep his mind in a "purpose/destiny" mindset--specifically applying to him. An ego-boost, cuz Locke needs those regularly to "keep the faith" in himself.

Wow. Didn't see that coming. Was Henry telling the truth about coming to get Locke or was he messing with Locke's head (again)?

No, i don't think so. I think Henry has played Locke like Jimi Hendrix played the guitar.
He's honed in on Locke's insecurities and used them to his advantage a couple of times.
I don't think he wanted any harm to come to Locke because i believe Henry when he suggests that The Others know about certain Losties.
At the time i doubt Henry knew that Michael was going to do what he did and so Henry would have needed an ally.

However, i gotta admit i have doubts about that theory as Henry did help Locke when he was injured by the blastdoor. Maybe his mission hadn't been completed then and so he stayed. Was his mission to kill Ana Lucia, to bring Locke back with him or was it related to The Swan ?
How, until he was caught by Danielle, did he intend on infiltrating the camp dressed as he was ? Would he have used the same lie about Henry Gale and claimed he'd been living on the island and stumbled across their camp ? ( the whole Henry Gale / grave thing still doesn't rest well with me )

At this point i don't think anyone can say for definite ( unless people have been dining on spoilers and leaks )

they can have him I dont like Locke
My best laugh of the week. Cartoon quality.

Can anyone tell me if fake Henry is using a 'technique' on Locke?

What I mean by that is...Say FHenry has been sent to 'turn' Locke ( why do we call him Locke when other males get first names?). We all know it goes on so what is the strategy?

Still laughing

Excellent thread and the arguments on both sides make sense. I think this one could go either way, as far as if Henry was telling the truth about "I was coming for you, John".

However, I just want to say that I don't necessarily agree that Locke was taken in by this. And even if he is open to the possibility that the others really were coming for him, I don't think he necessarily feels that is a good thing, or part of his destiny. In the scene in which Jack apologizes to Locke, Locke says he "couldn't agree more" that the others are basically full of boar doo-doo and you can't trust anything they say. I agree that Locke is vulnerable to being manipulated because he desperately needs to believe in destiny, and he senses in particular that his destiny is entwined somehow with the island, and he believes that there is something very beautiful and healing at the core of the island. Locke, due to his sad childhood/history, also desperately needs a sense of belonging. It is all tied together. However, due to the same sad history, Locke has become a survivor, and very wise. He is an interesting blend of a faithful, almost childlike person, and a cynical, strong survivor who isn't easily fooled. These two aspects of his personality seem at odds, yet when they are in balance, they complement each other to create the wonderful aspects of Locke's character that I love.

I think that, while Henry is indeed a master manipulator and it seems that the others as a "culture" are as well (the elaborate, well-thought-out fake outfits/beards, the way Ethan manipulated Claire and got her to trust him via a combo of drugs and fake concern, when really they were going to brutally kill her just to get Aaron out of her body and into their clutches, etc.), and Locke is vulnerable to being tantalized to a point by that, I think that ultimately Locke is nobody's fool. Not anymore. Not after Daddy dearest and the whole kidney thing.

I do think there is a potential for the others "turning" Locke for a while, but I believe that ultimately, Locke will realize when he is being manipulated and he will learn to distinguish what is truly beautiful and wonderful about the island, and what (or who) is chilling.

I tend to think that, regarding this specific issue of Henry saying he was coming for Locke, it really tantalized Locke, big time, yet he realized full well that Henry could be playing him. He realizes how treacherous Henry is, I think. Also, he never succombed to Henry's attempts to pit him against Jack. Not sure what the thing was about when Locke knocked all the dishes off the counter in a rage after one such attempt by Henry, but I think it was NOT that Locke was upset with Jack, as Henry wanted, but that Locke realized that Henry was attempting to play him, and THAT enraged him. It was shortly after that that Locke went to Ana and said there was a "man in my hatch and I want him out".

Locke is vulnerable...but only to a point. I think his wisdom and perception trumps his deep need to have a destiny and a place--and family/people--to which he belongs.

I don't think he's buying what Henry is selling.

If Locke is so wise how come he reacted to Henry taunting him about being second in command to Jack by throwing the pots around the kitchen ?

Character inconsistency, insecure Locke or very wise Locke ?

I think what Henry said went straight to Locke's heart, just as the map went straight into his mind and has troubled him for the last few days.

Henry just seems to add to the downfall of Locke. In the first season, you may or may not have liked locke, but you knew he had the answers, that you needed him to survive. Now he's so disillusioned by the hatch and henry that he's lost his way. For me, who is a locke fan, it's frustrating to watch him become this insecure person who is now not sure of his decisions.

As for Henry coming for Locke, I think that everything Henry says is just said to further his agenda. It may or may not be true, but as long as it gets him what he wants, be it an action or a reaction he's a satisfied little other.

I agree - Locke's felt for a long time that he was the only survivor of the plane crash to really "understand" the island. I think that his personal destiny and fate will definitely come into play, and we'll have another Locke's faith versus Jack's science dichotomy again. The interesting part will be to see if Locke lets anyone in on this tidbit of info. He says all the time how he and Jack need to trust each other, but then keeps things from Jack - I think this is another piece of information that Locke will keep to himself until the time is right... perhaps when they find the camp that Michael was talking about?

Sorry for the "out topic". Imo Michael is now an Other....and no, they can't beat the Others, there isn't a small camp guarded by two guns: Michael is setting them a trap.

How do we know unHenry didn't come for Claire??
She slipped out of their hands at the medical hatch, and they did seem to want baby Aaron.
Maybe unHenry's plan was to either snatch the baby or to infiltrate the survivors to have an influence on Aaron's upbringing.

unHenry may have also wanted Locke, but something about Locke's injury or his visit to the Peal changed unHenry's mind.