If this has previously been discussed, I apologize profusely. The board server was so packed all day that I could not connect, and by now, so many conversations have taken place that it's almost impossible to follow.

Does anyone think that Jack, while treating Michael's gunshot wound, will recognize that it was self-inflicted? An ER doctor friend of mine insists that once you've been at it long enough, you can basically spot a self inflicted GSW based on pattern of gun shot residue (if available) and the angle of penetration. If that's true (sometimes I think he's watched too much CSI ;) ), I would hope Jack will pick up on it.

Somehow I don't think so. Michael will say he was shot a close range while grappling with Fenry and Jack won't be able to tell the difference (he doesn't have Gil Grissom there to help him). Besides, it would ruin the obvious damage Michael's going to be able to inflict before the finale...

Oldwiz

I did a short stint in ER as a med student, and I don't think Jack would notice. Especially, if he's told that it was a struggle, which would explain the angles and GSR. But then again, this is more in the field forensic medicine, so...

I wondered about this as well. But, of course, Jack is a spinal surgeon and not used to seeing gun shot wounds on a daily basis down in ER.

Still, the angle is funny. What I would question if I was Jack is WHY was Henry able to shoot Ana-Lucia while she calmly sat on the couch?

Inconsistencies Jack should look for:

~ How did Henry get out of the armory? Who opened the door - Michael? Why? And how did Michael know the combination?

~ How did Henry get the gun? Did Michael have it when he opened the door? Would Ana-Lucia really have just given it to Michael if he wanted to talk to Henry, and then sat back on the couch?

~ Once the shot went off, wouldn't Ana-Lucia have immediately leapt off the couch?! There's just no way she could have been sitting there completely unaware, when Henry had just shot Michael inside the armory.

~ Then with all that going on, would Libby be that far inside the room FACING her assailant long enough to get 2 shots in the gut? If Henry had the gun she would have been fleeing the area and he would have shot her in the back. The fact that she was shot in the front, twice, implies she knew the gunman and was not afraid of them. She was caught by surprise.


LOTS of questions, LOTS of inconsistencies. This should cause immediate concern upon finding all the wounded & dead. But, if we know our Lostie crew, they will question nothing and share zero information with each other. :rolleyes:

Somehow I don't think so. ... Besides, it would ruin the obvious damage Michael's going to be able to inflict before the finale...

Oldwiz

See, now why do you have to bring logic into this discussion .... :lipsseal:

I'm afraid of the same thing ... much will be glossed over for the effect ... too much truth may well ruin the drama.

I have to say, I *want* to feel bad for Michael ... he's in a crappy situation. He finally gets his son back, only to have Walt hate him, and just as they are learning to be a family, Walt gets taken. I do believe Michael is acting of his own volition (brainwashing is out of the question, else he wouldn't have apologized to Ana before shooting her), and while I'm sure it's all in the name of getting back his "boy" (god, if I have to hear him say that one more time I may shoot myself in the shoulder too), I was *really* starting to like Ana, and can only begin to imagine what other delicious carnage he is about to unleash.

But I digressed from my original point ... for those who answered "no" to my question, I thank you. My ER friend is, as I suspected, a fool. :doh:

I wondered about this as well. But, of course, Jack is a spinal surgeon and not used to seeing gun shot wounds on a daily basis down in ER.

Still, the angle is funny. What I would question if I was Jack is WHY was Henry able to shoot Ana-Lucia while she calmly sat on the couch?

Inconsistencies Jack should look for:

~ How did Henry get out of the armory? Who opened the door - Michael? Why? And how did Michael know the combination?

~ How did Henry get the gun? Did Michael have it when he opened the door? Would Ana-Lucia really have just given it to Michael if he wanted to talk to Henry, and then sat back on the couch?

~ Once the shot went off, wouldn't Ana-Lucia have immediately leapt off the couch?! There's just no way she could have been sitting there completely unaware, when Henry had just shot Michael inside the armory.

~ Then with all that going on, would Libby be that far inside the room FACING her assailant long enough to get 2 shots in the gut? If Henry had the gun she would have been fleeing the area and he would have shot her in the back. The fact that she was shot in the front, twice, implies she knew the gunman and was not afraid of them. She was caught by surprise.


LOTS of questions, LOTS of inconsistencies. This should cause immediate concern upon finding all the wounded & dead. But, if we know our Lostie crew, they will question nothing and share zero information with each other. :rolleyes:


I think the order of events would be as follows
-Anna opens vault to shot Henry
-Henry breaks free shots Anna
-Libby comes in and Henry shots her before Michael can get to him.
-In the strugle Michael gets shot at close range.

Thats the story Michael will tell. I still haven't fiqured out the couch yet.

I think the order of events would be as follows
-Anna opens vault to shot Henry
-Henry breaks free shots Anna
-Libby comes in and Henry shots her before Michael can get to him.
-In the strugle Michael gets shot at close range.

Thats the story Michael will tell. I still haven't fiqured out the couch yet.

Michael will probably lay down AL's body in the ideal position. He doesn't know that Jack and crew are rushing to come back, so he thinks he has all the free time in the world.

I think the order of events would be as follows
-Anna opens vault to shot Henry
-Henry breaks free shots Anna
-Libby comes in and Henry shots her before Michael can get to him.
-In the strugle Michael gets shot at close range.


Yeah... that's what I think the stroy will be too.

Fenry could also help him lay out a story and Ana's body.

Who’s rushing to the hatch? Probably Jack, Locke, Sawyer & Kate. It's not like Jack & Locke are rational dispassionate observers. Sawyer is in a rage against Ana for being used by her for the gun. Kate might figure it out, but which one of those guys will listen to her?

Michael will probably lay down AL's body in the ideal position. He doesn't know that Jack and crew are rushing to come back, so he thinks he has all the free time in the world.

And what of all the blood on the couch??? Not really enough time to clean that up I wouldn't think. And if he moves her body somewhere else and does somehow magically manage to remove all traces of blood from the couch (while he himself is bleeding no less) there would still be a bullet hole right smack in the middle of it.

No, I really don't think Michael will be doing much of anything after shooting himself. Fenry might but I doubt it. I'm thinking he will want to be getting the hell out of Dodge - especially after Ana-Lucia nearly killed him.

I just don't see how anyone could look at that scene and figure that Michael's story - whatever it may be - will ring true.

Inconsistencies Jack should look for:

~ How did Henry get out of the armory? Who opened the door - Michael? Why? And how did Michael know the combination?

~ How did Henry get the gun? Did Michael have it when he opened the door? Would Ana-Lucia really have just given it to Michael if he wanted to talk to Henry, and then sat back on the couch?

~ Once the shot went off, wouldn't Ana-Lucia have immediately leapt off the couch?! There's just no way she could have been sitting there completely unaware, when Henry had just shot Michael inside the armory.

~ Then with all that going on, would Libby be that far inside the room FACING her assailant long enough to get 2 shots in the gut? If Henry had the gun she would have been fleeing the area and he would have shot her in the back. The fact that she was shot in the front, twice, implies she knew the gunman and was not afraid of them. She was caught by surprise.


LOTS of questions, LOTS of inconsistencies. This should cause immediate concern upon finding all the wounded & dead. But, if we know our Lostie crew, they will question nothing and share zero information with each other. :rolleyes:

I agree, but that would be awful and fatal for the series. They can't just go on with an illogical explanation by michael for the massacre in the hatch.
We can only hope that Michael has a logical coverstory, if the writers want him to maintain to be the mole.

The shock will probably blind everyone for that moment.. and they won't even think about the legitimacy of Michael's story. They have no reason to doubt him right now.

We really need a crossover episode with CSI so Grissom could come by and find the gunshot residue on Michael's hand, and Katherine could poke holes in Michael's story.... But they're on different networks so it will never happen. Think of the possibilities! Grissom could out-Locke Locke while he's there! Explain the island bugs to everyone!

We really need a crossover episode with CSI so Grissom could come by and find the gunshot residue on Michael's hand, and Katherine could poke holes in Michael's story.... But they're on different networks so it will never happen. Think of the possibilities! Grissom could out-Locke Locke while he's there! Explain the island bugs to everyone!

:24: Good one, workingmom.

I'm unclear about why some posters think that Michael can't come up with a believable story. Michael may not come up with a reasonable story, but that might be TPTB's intent - so that he will be found out. But I think he can, as some people have laid out:

AL opens the door to kill unHenry, unHenry somehow gets the gun, forces AL to the couch, kills her. Libby walks in, hearing shots, unHenry kills her. Michael, laid up on the bed and supposedly still kind of out of it, stumbles in, struggles with unHenry, and gets shot at close-range.

Obviously that's not what happened, but if I were told that, I'd have a difficult time disproving it, unless I was an EMT that could distinguish between a self-inflicted wound and a "regular" gunshot wound, as was mentioned earlier.

You know I don't think it will matter. It seems any relevent questions just slip from everyone mind making me think that mind games are being played on the Losties.

You know I don't think it will matter. It seems any relevent questions just slip from everyone mind making me think that mind games are being played on the Losties.


Definitely. 100% I wonder how long this game will last with Michael and the losties though. It's so interesting, I love Michael as the 'bad guy'.

P.S. - Ok, so I read that when Michael left he was wearing an orange shirt, and when he came back it was a plaid shirt. If I remember correctly he was wearing a plaid shirt when he left. Can anyone clarify for me?

I wondered about this as well. But, of course, Jack is a spinal surgeon and not used to seeing gun shot wounds on a daily basis down in ER.

Still, the angle is funny. What I would question if I was Jack is WHY was Henry able to shoot Ana-Lucia while she calmly sat on the couch?

Inconsistencies Jack should look for:

~ How did Henry get out of the armory? Who opened the door - Michael? Why? And how did Michael know the combination?

~ How did Henry get the gun? Did Michael have it when he opened the door? Would Ana-Lucia really have just given it to Michael if he wanted to talk to Henry, and then sat back on the couch?

~ Once the shot went off, wouldn't Ana-Lucia have immediately leapt off the couch?! There's just no way she could have been sitting there completely unaware, when Henry had just shot Michael inside the armory.

~ Then with all that going on, would Libby be that far inside the room FACING her assailant long enough to get 2 shots in the gut? If Henry had the gun she would have been fleeing the area and he would have shot her in the back. The fact that she was shot in the front, twice, implies she knew the gunman and was not afraid of them. She was caught by surprise.


LOTS of questions, LOTS of inconsistencies. This should cause immediate concern upon finding all the wounded & dead. But, if we know our Lostie crew, they will question nothing and share zero information with each other. :rolleyes:

Came into this thread too late you said everythin i wanted to say.
Unless Michael or Henry moves ana off the couch then its gonna be obvious that she was shot unexpectedly by someone other than Henry

Came into this thread too late you said everythin i wanted to say.
Unless Michael or Henry moves ana off the couch then its gonna be obvious that she was shot unexpectedly by someone other than Henry

Again I say, why couldn't Henry have somehow gotten the gun from AL, then forced her to sit down? Happens all the time on TV...:biggrin:

I thinks Micheal's replay of events will hold up for an episode, maybe two. And the revelation to the others on the island will be dine as part of the season finale.

this just came to me. A good way for the writters to have done this scene would be to keep the viewers in the dark about who the shooter was.

You have the confrontation at the beach where Sawyer realized the gun was missing. Then you have the scene where Anna is pointing the gun at Fenry, you cut to her last flashback, Now imagine our reaction if the next scene was with Jack, Locke, Sawywer and Kate running into the hatch and seeing the bloodbath along with the viewers for the 1st time. That would have been a great who done it and then reveal the shooter in the season finale.

I am not even worried about the whole gun thing. I think Micheal will get busted when he gives his description of the others to Jack and Kate. Remeber she told Jack she she saw the make up and tatered clthes in a locker all hung up in the Medical hatch.

this just came to me. A good way for the writters to have done this scene would be to keep the viewers in the dark about who the shooter was.

You have the confrontation at the beach where Sawyer realized the gun was missing. Then you have the scene where Anna is pointing the gun at Fenry, you cut to her last flashback, Now imagine our reaction if the next scene was with Jack, Locke, Sawywer and Kate running into the hatch and seeing the bloodbath along with the viewers for the 1st time. That would have been a great who done it and then reveal the shooter in the season finale.

I disagree. If we do not see the shootong we do not have the incredible shock that just about all of us felt. The shock of seeing Michael shoot AL, the the second even larger shock of seeing him shoot Libby a beat later.

The shock comes from the shootings, from WHO DID the shootings, and from the reaction/expression of the shooter.

There would have been no where near the impact if all this occurred "off stage".

As for "Will Jack Notice"... I think it'll be Locke who puts it all together, seeing through Michael's story (whatever it is) almost immediately. The question then becomes, does Locke share his insight with Jack and the others or does he keep yet another secret that eventually leads to yet another tragedy?

I am not even worried about the whole gun thing. I think Micheal will get busted when he gives his description of the others to Jack and Kate. Remeber she told Jack she she saw the make up and tatered clthes in a locker all hung up in the Medical hatch.

Well, he already said that they were wearing dirty, tattered clothing, and no shoes (!! the other others, I say) Then they went to a close-up of Kate's face. Maybe she suspects something...?

I disagree. If we do not see the shootong we do not have the incredible shock that just about all of us felt. The shock of seeing Michael shoot AL, the the second even larger shock of seeing him shoot Libby a beat later.

The shock comes from the shootings, from WHO DID the shootings, and from the reaction/expression of the shooter.

There would have been no where near the impact if all this occurred "off stage".

As for "Will Jack Notice"... I think it'll be Locke who puts it all together, seeing through Michael's story (whatever it is) almost immediately. The question then becomes, does Locke share his insight with Jack and the others or does he keep yet another secret that eventually leads to yet another tragedy?

I agree the impact and the shock would not have been in this episode. But holding us in suspense of what happened in the bunker then next week finding out it was Michael that shot them. The shock would still be there it would just be next episode, and it miht be a little more because we would have had a week to come up with speculations and suspects.

I'm unclear about why some posters think that Michael can't come up with a believable story. I think he can, as some people have laid out:
AL opens the door to kill unHenry, unHenry somehow gets the gun, forces AL to the couch, kills her. Libby walks in, hearing shots, unHenry kills her. Michael, laid up on the bed and supposedly still kind of out of it, stumbles in, struggles with unHenry, and gets shot at close-range.
Well, considering the scene as it is I guess my first reaction would be that it all looks too nice and neat. There are no signs of struggle. And you can bet there would be some stuff out of place if Ana-Lucia was fighting Henry for the gun. Clothes rumpled, buttons popped, seams ripped, broken fingernails, pulled-out hair wrapped around fingers, scratches, bruises maybe, aside from the most obvious of signs being a lot of stuff knocked over.

If I were to return to the hatch, seeing it exactly as I left it, but now there are 2 dead bodies and 1 wounded - yet their hair is un-mussed, clothes are neat, with no signs that they fought back - I would sense that something was really really wrong with that situation.


Came into this thread too late you said everythin i wanted to say.
Unless Michael or Henry moves ana off the couch then its gonna be obvious that she was shot unexpectedly by someone other than Henry

I thought that only happened to me! (Repeatedly!)
Don't you just HATE it when that happens? :laughing:

I have a couch theory! Is it easy for a doctor to tell if a wound came after the person dies? He could hit her in the head with something to make it look like she did get up, but was knocked out. Then he put her on the couch before he shot her. Nevermind, that's a dumb theory. Why wouldn't he have just shot her lying on the ground? Why put her on the couch? Ok, I just killed my own theory.

AL opens the door to kill unHenry, unHenry somehow gets the gun, forces AL to the couch, kills her. Libby walks in, hearing shots, unHenry kills her. Michael, laid up on the bed and supposedly still kind of out of it, stumbles in, struggles with unHenry, and gets shot at close-range.
I think that's a much better story. I would believe it.
ETA: I hadn't thought about there being no signs of struggle as Lost_in_Louisiana just said. She posted as I was typing mine. Now I'm not sure about this story being as believable. I don't know though, they might be so distracted and distraught that they don't realize either. You know what, I wonder if they'll blame Locke somehow even though he wasn't there. Probably not, but for some reason that just struck me.

this just came to me. A good way for the writters to have done this scene would be to keep the viewers in the dark about who the shooter was.

You have the confrontation at the beach where Sawyer realized the gun was missing. Then you have the scene where Anna is pointing the gun at Fenry, you cut to her last flashback, Now imagine our reaction if the next scene was with Jack, Locke, Sawywer and Kate running into the hatch and seeing the bloodbath along with the viewers for the 1st time. That would have been a great who done it and then reveal the shooter in the season finale.
In a way, I think that would be a good idea to have done it that way, but I agree with Dave...
I disagree. If we do not see the shootong we do not have the incredible shock that just about all of us felt. The shock of seeing Michael shoot AL, the the second even larger shock of seeing him shoot Libby a beat later.

The shock comes from the shootings, from WHO DID the shootings, and from the reaction/expression of the shooter.

There would have been no where near the impact if all this occurred "off stage". If they hadn't shown us the actual shooting, I think it would have lost some of it's impact. People probably would have figured out who did it, or there would at least be a few theories. Michael surely being one of them. Finally seeing who did it is nothing compared to actually seeing Michael do it. It's more of a shock to see it "live" than see it after we already know it happened. That's my opinion at least.

As for "Will Jack Notice"... I think it'll be Locke who puts it all together, seeing through Michael's story (whatever it is) almost immediately. The question then becomes, does Locke share his insight with Jack and the others or does he keep yet another secret that eventually leads to yet another tragedy? I think he'll keep the secret. He's more concerned with figuring out the blast door map, and wondering if Henry was telling the truth about wanting him to be one of them. It's even possible that he won't see through Michael's story because he's too distracted by what Henry said.

sounds like they're going to lead us up to a wonderful michael flashback where some (but not all, of course) of our questions are answered.

why, exactly, did he do this?

heck of a way to end the season. :D

Michael will probably lay down AL's body in the ideal position. He doesn't know that Jack and crew are rushing to come back, so he thinks he has all the free time in the world.

So how will he explain the bloodstain and bullet in the couch? You know, the stain and bullet hole that are exactly where someone would be sitting if they were shot in the stomach... exactly where Ana has a bullet hole?

The losties will swallow it entirely and blame it on Ana Lucia. She had means,motive and opportunity and is not there to defend herself. It will be a long time until they find it was Michael..

Well, considering the scene as it is I guess my first reaction would be that it all looks too nice and neat. There are no signs of struggle. And you can bet there would be some stuff out of place if Ana-Lucia was fighting Henry for the gun. Clothes rumpled, buttons popped, seams ripped, broken fingernails, pulled-out hair wrapped around fingers, scratches, bruises maybe, aside from the most obvious of signs being a lot of stuff knocked over.

If I were to return to the hatch, seeing it exactly as I left it, but now there are 2 dead bodies and 1 wounded - yet their hair is un-mussed, clothes are neat, with no signs that they fought back - I would sense that something was really really wrong with that situation.



Well, although you can put 2 and 2 together (and most people would) as it is with MANY things on Lost you have to remember the writers need the characters to be imbeciles in order to fit contrived scenarios and plotlines. The characters can't question, communicate or use much common sense because if they would many of the shows premises and plots fall apart. It's getting old fast.

Why would anyone assume Michael shot Ana and Libby. No one would at all. The Losties have NO REASON to suspect he did this, regardless of how odd the scene looks. Now, I believe, Libby has survived and when she wakes up and tells the Losties what she saw, they'll send out a crew to chase down Jack and Mike who inevitably will be going out to "get Walt."

Also, how cool would it be if Michael casually addresses Henry as his real name? That'd be a fun moment. Then we can stop this Henry, Fenry, Fake Henry stuff.

In next weeks preview, who's in the armory? Not Henry. Looks like Michael takes his place as a prisoner to me.

In next weeks preview, who's in the armory? Not Henry. Looks like Michael takes his place as a prisoner to me.

Noeland,..there is a scene where Michael is seen inside the armory

I think that kate already has some doubt...from the look on her face when michael tells them about the dirty others. But...I think maybe for now..michael's story will hold...everyone will be in shock. (Remember how it took ana-lucia a while to realize that goodwin has come out of the woods dry )But as the shock wears off...or if libby isnt dead & wakes up & tell them what happens...michael will be found out. Remember the previews said A traitor will be revealed

also in the previewskate says SHE'S dead...not THEY'RE dead. AND...when hurley says "Im glad you're ok man" to michael...he doesnt look like he just found out his girlfriend is dead....so maybe libby is alive...but unconscious

I hope he figures it out. Otherwise IMO the scenes about Jack's intuitive poker playing will have been lost on me.