Just a little tidbit to think about. When Bruce Lee starred as Kato in the Green Hornet TV Series during the 1970s, despite his immense popularity in both the US and Hong Kong, the producers insisted that he keep on that mask as often as possible. (In essence, America was not yet ready for an Asian American on prime-time television)
Now, Daniel Dae Kim is on one of America's most popular television shows and in essence he doesn't have a speaking role. (OK, three Korean speaking flashbacks and a few conversations with Sun) The best course for Asian actors is still via Asia. (i.e. Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Chow Yun Fat) Daniel should definitely try to break into the growing Korean Motion Picture Industry, while he's still young and handsome. I just hope he doesn't stay in the US with it's limited offerings and end up like Mr. Miyagi or that unknown long haired, mustached Asian extra that was in so many action movies (Lethal Weapon, Last Action Hero, Black Rain, etc...)

yeah it's so true and quite sad in a lot of ways. Of all Asian actors Daniel has been breaking more ground and at least he is recognized as a sex symbol. Hopefully he'll have enough clout after Lost to take on a prominent roles as an asian-american man.

It's really quite bizarre when you come to think about it. Someone who's heritage and culture is apparent due to their name or the actor talking about it in interviews has a stigma attached to them as mentioned in the first post. yet someone who leaves their ethnic background a mystery (Vin diesel or Wentworth Miller spring to mind) breaks through so to speak.

Blah.I could of worded that better but I'm still waking up.

yeah, but you can't get around it if you are asian (or south asian or black) people will also tyr to put some sort of foreign enthinicity on you, unless your mixed race like keanu reaves or Dean Caine.

This is true also.Meh@labels.

yeah it's so true and quite sad in a lot of ways. Of all Asian actors Daniel has been breaking more ground and at least he is recognized as a sex symbol. Hopefully he'll have enough clout after Lost to take on a prominent roles as an asian-american man.

I really hope that Daniel does well after Lost! :D

yeah it's so true and quite sad in a lot of ways. Of all Asian actors Daniel has been breaking more ground and at least he is recognized as a sex symbol. Hopefully he'll have enough clout after Lost to take on a prominent roles as an asian-american man.
Garret Wang, Ensign Harry Kim from Star Trek Voyager, was also publicized as a Sex symbol (People Mag's 50 Most Beautiful People). That didn't help his career after Voyager went off the air. His big thing now is showing up at Star Trek Conventions to sign autographs and have his picture taken. He'll never be hurting for money with all the syndication, but his acting career has hit a literal brick wall. I hope Daniel doesn't suffer through the same situation after his role in Lost.

I know what you are saying, Bruce Lee was about the biggest star ever to come out of Hong Kong. He made a career in America, but they treated him like a king in Asia. I think sadly he's more popular in the states now, then he ever was when he was alive. I'm sorry I'm ranting about Bruce Lee, when this is about Daniel but I love Bruce and every film he made I own and enjoy very much so I was happy to see this post, even if to just talk about him for a bit.

I know what you are saying, Bruce Lee was about the biggest star ever to come out of Hong Kong. He made a career in America, but they treated him like a king in Asia. I think sadly he's more popular in the states now, then he ever was when he was alive. I'm sorry I'm ranting about Bruce Lee, when this is about Daniel but I love Bruce and every film he made I own and enjoy very much so I was happy to see this post, even if to just talk about him for a bit.

What's sad is that most millenials/Gen Xers probably don't even know who Bruce Lee is/was.:frown:

Garret Wang, Ensign Harry Kim from Star Trek Voyager, was also publicized as a Sex symbol (People Mag's 50 Most Beautiful People). That didn't help his career after Voyager went off the air. His big thing now is showing up at all the Star Trek Conventions to sign autographs and have his picture taken. He'll never be hurting for money with all the syndication, but his acting career has hit a literal brick wall. I hope Daniel doesn't suffer through the same situation after his role in Lost.

I didn't know Garrett Wang was considered a sex symbol!

I didn't know Garrett Wang was considered a sex symbol!
Hey penyours, I guess you could call someone who made People Magazine's most beautiful people list a sex symbol, not that beauty automatically denotes sexy. Mother Teresa is a beautiful person, the Dalai Lama is a beautiful person, but they aren't sexy. In the case of Garret, I'm assuming they meant beautiful to mean sexy...since his fame did not come from any humanitarian or intellectual attributes. Garret may have had the pretty boy looks girls and women in the U.S. fawn over, maybe more so than Daniel, but as far as acting is concerned Daniel is much better and a heck of a lot more experienced than Garret. Kudos to Daniel for being so proficiently multilingual. Of course Garret Wang did have the fortune of being on a show where the writers never killed off any of the main characters, hence lasting seven long years. Lost may last that long, but all bets are off when it comes to guessing which of the main characters will still be there at the very end.

Hey penyours, I guess you could call someone who made People Magazine's most beautiful people list a sex symbol, not that beauty automatically denotes sexy. Mother Teresa is a beautiful person, the Dalai Lama is a beautiful person, but they aren't sexy. In the case of Garret, I'm assuming they meant beautiful to mean sexy...since his fame did not come from any humanitarian or intellectual attributes. Garret may have had the pretty boy looks girls and women in the U.S. fawn over, maybe more so than Daniel, but as far as acting is concerned Daniel is much better and a heck of a lot more experienced than Garret. Kudos to Daniel for being so proficiently multilingual. Of course Garret Wang did have the fortune of being on a show where the writers never killed of any of the main characters, hence lasting seven long years. Lost may last that long, but all bets are off when it comes to guessing which of the main characters will still be there at the very end.
Hehe very true about that list Melikon. I've never actually read People's list, i just assumed that whenever a movie or TV star is on it, it's because of sex appeal. Daniel has much more charisma, Garret, or atleast henson Kim is a little bland (though I've only watched a few episodes of voyager) Oh and I doubt Sun or Jin die any time soon, I'm guessing that they like having a multiracial cast because it helps with ratings in other countries.

To second Earlham Girl, I hope Daniel's career does well after Lost. He is a lot more versatile as an actor than Bruce Lee, imo. So why not? In addition, there are a lot more Asian actors/actresses/celebrities in the media these days: Lucy Liu, Sandra Oh, John Cho, Margaret Cho...

For anyone interested, Daniel Dae Kim is starring in the movie, "The Onion". The satire about 'The onion' based in Wisconsin.

To second Earlham Girl, I hope Daniel's career does well after Lost. He is a lot more versatile as an actor than Bruce Lee, imo. So why not? In addition, there are a lot more Asian actors/actresses/celebrities in the media these days: Lucy Liu, Sandra Oh, John Cho, Margaret Cho...

It is good to witness the few Asian actors succeeding in Hollywood based on their acting ability and charisma rather than because of their martial arts/fighting skills, which was the only way for Asians to make it only a decade ago...not that it still doesn't occur (i.e. Jet Li, Jackie Chan)

Have to agree with you about Daniel being a more versatile actor than Bruce Lee, but that's only because Daniel had opportunities that Bruce Lee could have only dreamed of. Considering the times in which they lived, what Bruce Lee accomplished was truly miraculous. I also think Bruce has more of an onscreen presence than Daniel(and I don't mean his choreographed fight scenes), his smile, his demeanor, his confidence...Daniel is a good actor but Bruce Lee's destiny was to be an actor. I don't think he would have been happy doing anything else. Just my opinion. I of course wish Daniel all success both on Lost and beyond.

I don't know too much about Bruce Lee, but he's definetely made a name for himself, given the constraints inherent in his time. I think that's great. He probably even paved the way for other Asian actors, such as Daniel Dae Kim. I don't really like the idea of comparing two vastly different people, just because they are both Asian and actors, but it'll be interesting to see where Daniel's career takes him.

Mother Teresa is a beautiful person, the Dalai Lama is a beautiful person, but they aren't sexy. In the case of Garret, I'm assuming they meant beautiful to mean sexy...

You don't think the Dalai Lama is sexy? ;)

Anyway, I was browsing the boards looking for an apropriate place to post the statement "Daniel rules!" and I thought this thread might fill the bill. Sure, he basically has a non-speaking role, but he has used this singular challenge to his benefit. His body language, his facial expressions have shown him to be a spectacularly expert actor. I often find myself thinking that I can only imagine how great he would be with speech added to that lineup.

I agree that it is shameful that, with the exception of white people, actors of a certain ethnicity get pigeonholed into roles of that ethnicity. Can't writers and casting directors just say "why not?" As in, why not cast in Asian in a role that would otherwise be filled by a white actor? Is it that they simply don't think of it, or is it societal and market pressures? Being showfolk, myself, I don't think it's intentional discrimination, but it is a great example of what's known as entrenchedracism.

But I hope this sheer and obvious level of ability will serve Daniel well in his carreer. He's got the whole package: ability, charisma, sex appeal, a distinctive look. It would be an amazing shame if ethnicity stood in the way of such potential.

Of course, these comments should be couched in the knowledge that (according to IMDB), Daniel has done 48 roles in the past 15 years. Not bad. Not bad at all.

I agree that it is shameful that, with the exception of white people, actors of a certain ethnicity get pigeonholed into roles of that ethnicity. Can't writers and casting directors just say "why not?" As in, why not cast in Asian in a role that would otherwise be filled by a white actor? Is it that they simply don't think of it, or is it societal and market pressures? Being showfolk, myself, I don't think it's intentional discrimination, but it is a great example of what's known as entrenchedracism.

You bring up a good point Edmuse. Hollywood is ruled by corporations which is ruled by profits. These profits come from the viewers, so Hollywood gives them what they want(Which explains all the remakes and sequels). What that means is the american public is not yet ready for Asian American males in starring roles both on TV and the movies. Asian women would seem to have made more headway but if you notice, they're usually in roles where they're the lovers/partners of the white male leads. One advantage that African-American actors have are the number of Directors and Producers of African-American descent in the motion picture industry. Asian-American actors don't have that advantage, at least not to the same degree. I agree that Jin's non-speaking role on Lost is very original for network television but, as i discussed in a previous thread now lost, I don't agree with Jin not knowing any English whatsoever. Also I'll admit, as an Asian-American, I find it so frusterating. We finally got a charismatic Asian guy starring on a TV show loved and watched by millions around the world, and he doesn't say Sh##!
So close...yet so far.

Although Jin doesn't say much (in English), he is representing a vast portion of Asian immigrants who do not possess English language skills, which I think is unheard of, given his prominence in the show. I don't think it matters in the long run, whether his character speaks much at all (in English) because he's creating quite a stir playing the role of Jin. I think, in this case, it's all about screen time than anything else. This said, I do hope that his English improves because more interaction with the others will yield even more screen time.

Just an aside: I just watched Exodus, Part II. Anyone notice that Jin and Eko had very little problem communicating?

Expounding on my entrenched racism comment: Obviously, there are characters that have to be played by white people. Let's say there was a movie (more likely a cheezy TV miniseries) about the OJ trial. Daniel Dae Kim probably wouldn't be cast as Mark Fuhrman. He wouldn't have been right for Edward Norton's role in American History X.

But let's say a screenwriter wrote a character with no particular ethnicity in mind. In contemporary western society, could an Asian actor play that part without it being imposed in the minds of the audience that this is a necessarily Asian role? That it carries with it some cultural or ethnic "baggage?" Would we be able to think "it has nothing to do with this film or its plot that this character is Asian?"

Think of it this way-- let's say a screenwriter writes a role for which there is no reason that the character can't be in a wheelchair. It's cast with an actor in a wheelchair. Obviously, the wheelchair is noticeable, and is part of the "life" of that character, just as is true in real life. But is it possible for the wheelchair not to become part of the show? Not to dominate the character?

And yet, in western society, these questions aren't generally asked about average-white-guy characters. Hey, Sawyer's accent stereotypes him as a redneck. Naveen Andrews is an Englishman of Indian descent playing an Iraqi because he's a good actor with dark skin and hair. But he's not playing Jack, is he?

This stuff is subtle, and tough to think about. But it bears thinking about.

Expounding on my entrenched racism comment: Obviously, there are characters that have to be played by white people. Let's say there was a movie (more likely a cheezy TV miniseries) about the OJ trial. Daniel Dae Kim probably wouldn't be cast as Mark Fuhrman. He wouldn't have been right for Edward Norton's role in American History X.

But let's say a screenwriter wrote a character with no particular ethnicity in mind. In contemporary western society, could an Asian actor play that part without it being imposed in the minds of the audience that this is a necessarily Asian role? That it carries with it some cultural or ethnic "baggage?" Would we be able to think "it has nothing to do with this film or its plot that this character is Asian?"

Think of it this way-- let's say a screenwriter writes a role for which there is no reason that the character can't be in a wheelchair. It's cast with an actor in a wheelchair. Obviously, the wheelchair is noticeable, and is part of the "life" of that character, just as is true in real life. But is it possible for the wheelchair not to become part of the show? Not to dominate the character?

And yet, in western society, these questions aren't generally asked about average-white-guy characters. Hey, Sawyer's accent stereotypes him as a redneck. Naveen Andrews is an Englishman of Indian descent playing an Iraqi because he's a good actor with dark skin and hair. But he's not playing Jack, is he?

This stuff is subtle, and tough to think about. But it bears thinking about.

Did you know Yujin Kim was asked to audition for role of Kate? There are obviously roles which require the actor have certain characteristics, whether racial, gender, etc. However, I would argue that the vast majority of roles would not be effect if placed by an actor of asian, black, white, latina... descent.

Just an aside: I just watched Exodus, Part II. Anyone notice that Jin and Eko had very little problem communicating?

Expounding on my entrenched racism comment: Obviously, there are characters that have to be played by white people. Let's say there was a movie (more likely a cheezy TV miniseries) about the OJ trial. Daniel Dae Kim probably wouldn't be cast as Mark Fuhrman. He wouldn't have been right for Edward Norton's role in American History X.

But let's say a screenwriter wrote a character with no particular ethnicity in mind. In contemporary western society, could an Asian actor play that part without it being imposed in the minds of the audience that this is a necessarily Asian role? That it carries with it some cultural or ethnic "baggage?" Would we be able to think "it has nothing to do with this film or its plot that this character is Asian?"

Think of it this way-- let's say a screenwriter writes a role for which there is no reason that the character can't be in a wheelchair. It's cast with an actor in a wheelchair. Obviously, the wheelchair is noticeable, and is part of the "life" of that character, just as is true in real life. But is it possible for the wheelchair not to become part of the show? Not to dominate the character?

And yet, in western society, these questions aren't generally asked about average-white-guy characters. Hey, Sawyer's accent stereotypes him as a redneck. Naveen Andrews is an Englishman of Indian descent playing an Iraqi because he's a good actor with dark skin and hair. But he's not playing Jack, is he?

This stuff is subtle, and tough to think about. But it bears thinking about.

A case in point for this would be Michael Chrichton's Rising Sun. Chrichton was not pleased when the producers of the movie adaptation for his book cast Wesley Snipes in the lead role opposite Sean Connery. Yet, when reading the book, from what I recall, Chrichton never really overemphasized the fact that the main character was a caucasian. I guess we were supposed to take it for granted that he was.

I applaud the writers of Lost for creating such a unique character in Jin, but I think I'd have applauded louder had he been an articulate Asian-American Male, a group still largely unbeknownst to Hollywood.

Just an aside: I just watched Exodus, Part II. Anyone notice that Jin and Eko had very little problem communicating?

Expounding on my entrenched racism comment: Obviously, there are characters that have to be played by white people. Let's say there was a movie (more likely a cheezy TV miniseries) about the OJ trial. Daniel Dae Kim probably wouldn't be cast as Mark Fuhrman. He wouldn't have been right for Edward Norton's role in American History X.

But let's say a screenwriter wrote a character with no particular ethnicity in mind. In contemporary western society, could an Asian actor play that part without it being imposed in the minds of the audience that this is a necessarily Asian role? That it carries with it some cultural or ethnic "baggage?" Would we be able to think "it has nothing to do with this film or its plot that this character is Asian?"

Think of it this way-- let's say a screenwriter writes a role for which there is no reason that the character can't be in a wheelchair. It's cast with an actor in a wheelchair. Obviously, the wheelchair is noticeable, and is part of the "life" of that character, just as is true in real life. But is it possible for the wheelchair not to become part of the show? Not to dominate the character?

And yet, in western society, these questions aren't generally asked about average-white-guy characters. Hey, Sawyer's accent stereotypes him as a redneck. Naveen Andrews is an Englishman of Indian descent playing an Iraqi because he's a good actor with dark skin and hair. But he's not playing Jack, is he?

This stuff is subtle, and tough to think about. But it bears thinking about.

How about casting Denzel Washington in Kenneth Branagh's Much Ado About Nothing? I thought that was great!

Did you know Yujin Kim was asked to audition for role of Kate?

And yet, they cast EL.
100%
A case in point for this would be Michael Chrichton's Rising Sun. Chrichton was not pleased when the producers of the movie adaptation for his book cast Wesley Snipes in the lead role opposite Sean Connery. Yet, when reading the book, from what I recall, Chrichton never really overemphasized the fact that the main character was a caucasian. I guess we were supposed to take it for granted that he was.
How about casting Denzel Washington in Kenneth Branagh's Much Ado About Nothing? I thought that was great!
According to the book Great Operatic Disasters, there was an opera company in Atlanta Georgia which was the first all-black opera company. I believe it was in the early 1960s (sorry for the vagueries, but I haven't read this now out-of-print book since grad school over a decade ago), when they were putting up a production of Verdi's Otello (obviously, a setting of Shakespeare's Othello. Their lead came up sick on opening night, and the only singer they could find on such short notice who knew the role was white.

So, they did Otello with a white guy in the title role, and with the rest of the cast, including Iago, being black. Talke about yer poetic juxtaposition!

And yet, they cast EL.

Yeah, but they also auditioned Jack for Sawyer, Charlie for Sawyer... point being, they just went with what they thought would an ideal match for the character.

100%


According to the book Great Operatic Disasters, there was an opera company in Atlanta Georgia which was the first all-black opera company. I believe it was in the early 1960s (sorry for the vagueries, but I haven't read this now out-of-print book since grad school over a decade ago), when they were putting up a production of Verdi's Otello (obviously, a setting of Shakespeare's Othello. Their lead came up sick on opening night, and the only singer they could find on such short notice who knew the role was white.

So, they did Otello with a white guy in the title role, and with the rest of the cast, including Iago, being black. Talke about yer poetic juxtaposition!

I love that! The irony, lol!

O.T. Hey LostIslandbaby, I apologize again for getting your name wrong, but WAS there a LostIslandBoy before?

Did you know Yujin Kim was asked to audition for role of Kate? There are obviously roles which require the actor have certain characteristics, whether racial, gender, etc. However, I would argue that the vast majority of roles would not be effect if placed by an actor of asian, black, white, latina... descent.

Not to sidetrack too much here in this Jin thread, but had the creators of Lost kept Yunjin in the role of Kate, that would have been a revolutionary step in the progression of Asian actors/actresses in Hollywood. Imagine it, an Asian-American character who killed her own father, was responsible for the death of her childhood friend and then became an international fugitive on the run. It would have broke all of Hollywood's established, adamantium-enforced boundaries. The only downside would have been that they would definitely have decided not to create the Jin character alltogether.

O.T. Hey LostIslandbaby, I apologize again for getting your name wrong, but WAS there a LostIslandBoy before?

A big resounding NO!:rolleyes:

Not to sidetrack too much here in this Jin thread, but had the creators of Lost kept Yunjin in the role of Kate, that would have been a revolutionary step in the progression of Asian actors/actresses in Hollywood. Imagine it, an Asian-American character who killed her own father, was responsible for the death of her childhood friend and then became an international fugitive on the run. It would have broke all of Hollywood's established, adamantium-enforced boundaries. The only downside would have been that they would definitely have decided not to create the Jin character alltogether.

What about Tia Carrere and Relic Hunter? Any thoughts?

Never watched it. Wasn't too big a fan of Tomb Raider either. I acknowledge that that was definitely a different role from the norm but utterly derivative as well. Why not pay more to hire Angelina Jolie herself and call it the Tomb Raider Series or the Adventures of Laura Croft.

Sure, he basically has a non-speaking role, but he has used this singular challenge to his benefit. His body language, his facial expressions have shown him to be a spectacularly expert actor. I often find myself thinking that I can only imagine how great he would be with speech added to that lineup.

I've often thought that myself! He manages to get so much across in his facial expressions. I have an in-law who is deaf, and much of his communication via ASL* is with facial and body expressions.
Daniel has established himself as a fine actor even without the use of English, and I admire him for that.

My husband, who grew up in Hawaii, LOVES all those old martial-arts movies. He watches them every Saturday, as there's always something on. They used to go to the movies to see them regularly when they were kids, so of course he loves the Bruce Lee movies. (And how sad that Bruce's son Brandon died at such a young age! He was a good actor, too.) I knew of Bruce but had never watched his movies, so they were all new to me as I watched them with Hubby.

As to the ethnicity of actors, it's something I don't notice much any more. My extended family, espc. the in-laws, are of such diverse backgrounds that I see people from all ethnic groups. When we have the lu'aus woth the Hawaiian club, I see people from everywhere! It's wonderful..

I think it's great that so many people can come to a thread like this to speak their minds, and all of the conversation is about acceptance---and it wouldn't have been like that even 20 years ago. It's good to see changes for acceptance/tolerance that I didn't see when I was a teen.

(on the off chance that someone doesn't know, *ASL = American Sign Language)

Talked with a friend a couple weekends ago, an Asian-American actor with 20+ roles in TV and the Movies, about the prospects for Asian-American actors in Hollywood. He described the situation using the idiom, "One Step Forward, Two Steps Back" So I asked him if DDK and Yunjin Kim on Lost meant we were in the midst of a one step forward phase. His response was noncommittal, but I think that was based more on his current dry spell. He did confirm my belief that Asian countries(i.e. Hong Kong, South Korea and Japan) generally have little interest in unknown Asian-American actors/actresses but are interested in Asian-American Actors/Actresses that have made a name for themselves in the States. Similarly, US film studios prefer proven Asian commodities (i.e Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Chow Yun Fat, etc..). It's all about ROI (Return on Investment). For aspiring Asian-American actors the advice my friend gives is to get all the stand-ins and uncredited/credited bit-parts you can. Build up your resume of roles. Ignore the flippant, politically incorrect remarks by directors, producers, and the stars. Form social networks. If possible, graduate with an economically viable degree(Most important). Always think positive(Absolutely crucial).

You bring up a good point Edmuse. Hollywood is ruled by corporations which is ruled by profits. These profits come from the viewers, so Hollywood gives them what they want(Which explains all the remakes and sequels). What that means is the american public is not yet ready for Asian American males in starring roles both on TV and the movies. Asian women would seem to have made more headway but if you notice, they're usually in roles where they're the lovers/partners of the white male leads. One advantage that African-American actors have are the number of Directors and Producers of African-American descent in the motion picture industry. Asian-American actors don't have that advantage, at least not to the same degree. I agree that Jin's non-speaking role on Lost is very original for network television but, as i discussed in a previous thread now lost, I don't agree with Jin not knowing any English whatsoever. Also I'll admit, as an Asian-American, I find it so frusterating. We finally got a charismatic Asian guy starring on a TV show loved and watched by millions around the world, and he doesn't say Sh##!
So close...yet so far.

The way I see it Melikon it's not going to happen on any sizable scale until you have more Asian Americans behind the scenes from producers to directors. Nobody should be naive enough to assume these roles will be given away on their own. By and large AAs are going to have to do it themselves like African Americans have done. Or in some rare cases, Harold and Kumar come to mind, team up with others that understand the issues. Overall though it will happen when more are put in decision making situations. That is why it's really important to support AA film, Eric Byler's Americanes for example, and AAs in entertainment that are actively trying to bring about change.

And there is some change that is occuring. Take Justin Lin for example. A filmmaker if there ever was one that understands the racial and sexual politics of Hollywood film. After his independent all AA low budget "Better Luck Tomorrow" won high acclaim, including Roger Ebert passionately defending it in person against many mainstream Hollywood critics, he was hired to direct big budget hollywood flicks like Annapolis and The Fast and Furious Tokyo Drift. Despite what you might think about where it falls on the craptacular scale, it's a way to make money to eventually fund his own material. And influence the process subtly while he's at it. Both films have non "stereotypical" Asian American males in supporting roles. Justin even said no thanks I'll walk if the writers and producers were going to do the same old white worshipping/Asian female wanting to be liberated from a domineering Asian male theme. *yawn* Lucas Black's love interests race was changed as well.

So again think of it this way, real change is going to occur when more AAs get into positions of power in the industry and can define their American identity instead of being defined as perpetual foreigners by others. Also it will help as the population grows and it is growing fast. AAs only make up about 5% of the population for now versus African Americans who also are part of mainstream American culture via sports and music. So I don't agree that talanted AAs actors leave for Asia even though South Korean acting and pop stars are far and away the biggest things over there right now. Meh, imported talent is fine, but homegrown AA talent should stay right here and keep struggling to do it their own way.

The way I see it Melikon it's not going to happen on any sizable scale until you have more Asian Americans behind the scenes from producers to directors. Nobody should be naive enough to assume these roles will be given away on their own. By and large AAs are going to have to do it themselves like African Americans have done. Or in some rare cases, Harold and Kumar come to mind, team up with others that understand the issues. Overall though it will happen when more are put in decision making situations. That is why it's really important to support AA film, Eric Byler's Americanes for example, and AAs in entertainment that are actively trying to bring about change.

And there is some change that is occuring. Take Justin Lin for example. A filmmaker if there ever was one that understands the racial and sexual politics of Hollywood film. After his independent all AA low budget "Better Luck Tomorrow" won high acclaim, including Roger Ebert passionately defending it in person against many mainstream Hollywood critics, he was hired to direct big budget hollywood flicks like Annapolis and The Fast and Furious Tokyo Drift. Despite what you might think about where it falls on the craptacular scale, it's a way to make money to eventually fund his own material. And influence the process subtly while he's at it. Both films have non "stereotypical" Asian American males in supporting roles. Justin even said no thanks I'll walk if the writers and producers were going to do the same old white worshipping/Asian female wanting to be liberated from domineering Asian male theme. *yawn* Lucas Black's love interests race was changed as well.

So again think of it this way, real change is going to occur when more AAs get into positions of power in the industry and can define their American identity instead of being defined as perpetual foreigners by others. Also it will help as the population grows and it is growing fast. AAs only make up about 5% of the population for now versus African Americans who also are part of mainstream American culture via sports and music. So I don't agree that talanted AAs actors leave for Asia even though South Korean acting and pop stars are far and away the biggest things over there right now. Meh, imported talent is fine, but homegrown AA talent should stay right here and keep struggling to do it their own way.

I agree with you completely Infligttriangulation. Welcome to the fuse, by the way.. The point I'm trying to make is that, in the case of DDK, rather than waiting for this establishment of AAs in Hollywood behind camera, he should really consider trying to delve into the Korean motion picture industry. His co-star Yunjin Kim probably still has contacts in Korea and could probably help with the intros. We've seen several Asian American male actors hit it big...so to speak(i.e Garret Wang, B. D. Wong, Dustin Nguyen, John Lone, Philip Rhee) and then their careers plumetted once their TV or movie gigs ended. I hope DDK will learn from this and broaden his prospects, rather than become dependent on the few crumbs Hollywood might pass his way once his gig with Lost is complete. Best case scenario would probably be for DDK to stay on Lost till it ends or,God Forbid, is cancelled and hopefully by then some form of this AA behind camera network is established and he jumps on their bandwagon or even becomes their flagship actor.
Considering that quite a number of Directors started out as actors, you have to realistically consider how big this influx of AA Directors will be, and how long it will take for them to establish themselves in Hollywood. For the AA actors today this would definitely be a worthy cause to fight for and support, and I'm sure most of them do, but exposure has to be their immediate and primary goal. Exposure by any means neccessary (i.e. venturing into international markets) In this regard, AA actors have an advantage over Caucasian American actors, who are more limited to what Hollwood has to offer.

I agree with you completely Infligttriangulation. Welcome to the fuse, by the way.. The point I'm trying to make is that, in the case of DDK, rather than waiting for this establishment of AAs in Hollywood behind camera, he should really consider trying to delve into the Korean motion picture industry. His co-star Yunjin Kim probably still has contacts in Korea and could probably help with the intros. We've seen several Asian American male actors hit it big...so to speak(i.e Garret Wang, B. D. Wong, Dustin Nguyen, John Lone, Philip Rhee) and then their careers plumetted once their TV or movie gigs ended. I hope DDK will learn from this and broaden his prospects, rather than become dependent on the few crumbs Hollywood might pass his way once his gig with Lost is complete. Best case scenario would probably be for DDK to stay on Lost till it ends or,God Forbid, is cancelled and hopefully by then some form of this AA behind camera network is established and he jumps on their bandwagon or even becomes their flagship actor.

Thanks for the welcome. Yes, but why did those you mentioned have careers that basically ended after their shows finished? Well for one there are an astoundingly low amounts of roles being wirtten. Alternative character slots being filled by AAs is virtually nonexistent the way it stands now. Hence the need for more AAs to enter the business at all levels and yes as needed, do it themselves. Daniel's experience with and exposure to a huge hit like Lost can help with that. And indeed he does encourage AAs to enter entertainment including theater. However, the crumbs reference is seconded. The entertainment landscape is littered with degrading AA roles, brief careers and obscurity. I don't want him to take crumbs from anybody but really nothings going to change if they're aren't people who are committed. For the most part, we're on the same page Melikon. Fortunately for Daniel, the character Jin has turned out to be very interesting. And for what he's been given to work with, ie lack of language, he's done a stellar job. Though in true realist fashion, if he makes it till the end a huge miracle will have occurred.

Although Jin doesn't say much (in English), he is representing a vast portion of Asian immigrants who do not possess English language skills, which I think is unheard of, given his prominence in the show.

That's the root of the problem LIB. To the Hollywood bigwigs that's all Asians will ever be...non-English speaking immigrants. Doesn't matter a hoot if your first, second or fifth generation American born. The only reason they have Jin and Sun on the show in the first place is to cater to international (Asians in Asia) viewers...for purely monetary reasons. I guess they're assuming Asian-Americans will watch Lost for the same reasons that the majority Caucasian population watches it, because it's entertaining.

Great DDK interview about how he developed the part of Jin and had to deal with some flack for portraying another stereotyped Asian character.
http://www.asiasource.org/arts/danieldaekim.cfm

The only reason they have Jin and Sun on the show in the first place is to cater to international (Asians in Asia) viewers...for purely monetary reasons. I guess they're assuming Asian-Americans will watch Lost for the same reasons that the majority Caucasian population watches it, because it's entertaining.

Now, I don't think that's the only reason for having them on the show. It's not so gratuitous-- there are thematic and storyline reasons for their being there. For instance, it was established early on that Jin and Sun were to be seperate from the rest of the Losties because of the language and cultural barriers. This "outcast among the outcasts" idea was really intreguing. Granted, I suppose, it could have bene done with any nationality, but having them be Korean, I think made them even more intreguingly foreign and exotic to American an European audiences.

Of course, that leads right back to the problem-- Asian and Asian American actors being cast for their exoticism...

Well for one there are an astoundingly low amounts of roles being wirtten.

Yes! The amount of roles written expressly for Asian characters is very low. But that's my point. There are lots and lots of roles written in which the ethnicity of the character is not a factor. But the default for these roles, it seems to me, is Caucasian-- if the writer/director/casting director doesn't have an ethnicity in mind, then subconsciously, they probably have white in mind. When that factor can be overcome, when the creative staff of a production can truly say "we don't have any ethnicity in mind for this character, so why not hire a Hispanic actor or a black actor, or an Asian actor, or a white actor" -- in fact, when the consideration is not taken into account at all -- then there might be some parity. Until then, an Asian American actor is behind the eightball-- if the role he's auditioning for is not an expressly-written "Asian character," he has to, in some way, however subtly, convince the casting director that it could be an "Asian character," rather than just having that character be Asian because it doesn't really matter.

At least that's my hypothesis.

Yes! The amount of roles written expressly for Asian characters is very low. But that's my point. There are lots and lots of roles written in which the ethnicity of the character is not a factor. But the default for these roles, it seems to me, is Caucasian-- if the writer/director/casting director doesn't have an ethnicity in mind, then subconsciously, they probably have white in mind. When that factor can be overcome, when the creative staff of a production can truly say "we don't have any ethnicity in mind for this character, so why not hire a Hispanic actor or a black actor, or an Asian actor, or a white actor" -- in fact, when the consideration is not taken into account at all -- then there might be some parity. Until then, an Asian American actor is behind the eightball-- if the role he's auditioning for is not an expressly-written "Asian character," he has to, in some way, however subtly, convince the casting director that it could be an "Asian character," rather than just having that character be Asian because it doesn't really matter.

At least that's my hypothesis.

First off, the question that needs to be answered is who has the final word in terms of the ethnicity of the characters. Except for the more influential directors, and possibly authors/screen writers, more often than not those decisions will be made by the producer(s). Inflighttriangulation is correct in saying that ethnic actors/actresses are better served with ethnic directors and/or producers making those decisions rather than becoming dependent upon the good will and/or open mindedness of the caucasian majority in Hollywood. Personally, I find Hollywood to be excessively retro/quaint in this regard. Asian-Americans are plentiful in the reality of American life. In your typical High School classroom/College campus or your office at work what do you got?...Caucasian Americans, Asian-Americans, African-Americans, Indian-Americans, Hispanic-Americans working, studying and socializing together. This just seems to confirm my notion that Hollywood is still controlled by a bunch of old conservative(registered democrats, however) farts, who are clueless or "fearful" about the evolving racial make-up of this country.

For instance, it was established early on that Jin and Sun were to be seperate from the rest of the Losties because of the language and cultural barriers. This "outcast among the outcasts" idea was really intreguing. Granted, I suppose, it could have bene done with any nationality, but having them be Korean, I think made them even more intreguingly foreign and exotic to American an European audiences.

Outcasts among the outcasts....the same could be said for Locke, Sayid, Eko, Charlie and even Sawyer. Intriguing?, a little too superfluous if you ask me. Of course it does add to the drama of the show. What the writers have really done is spiced up and made fashionable, the same tired bit-part role that the few lucky Asian-American actors/actresses have been portraying over the past ~2-3 decades. Kudos for their ingenuity.

I disagree with that. Jin and Sun aren't just faces on the show. Their flashback episodes delve deep into their lives in a way that puts them in the front and center, if only for those episodes. I think you are devaluing their roles a bit here...I've never seen Asian characters portrayed in full light of their cultural heritage in American t.v. the way Sun and Jin have been portrayed. Further more, I'd rather have fleshed out Asian characters in all their cultural glory than "Americanized" ones, whose characters could've been played by any ole actors/actresses.

I disagree with that. Jin and Sun aren't just faces on the show. Their flashback episodes delve deep into their lives in a way that puts them in the front and center, if only for those episodes. I think you are devaluing their roles a bit here...I've never seen Asian characters portrayed in full light of their cultural heritage in American t.v. the way Sun and Jin have been portrayed. Further more, I'd rather have fleshed out Asian characters in all their cultural glory than "Americanized" ones, whose characters could've been played by any ole actors/actresses.

We have fleshed out backgrounds because that is the "concept of the show". Flashback after flashback after flashback. I agree with you that the writers have managed to create interesting and sympathetic characters in Jin and Sun but consider this...who are/were the major American characters on the show? Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Boone, Locke, Shannon, Hurley...all caucasian, with the exception of Michael and Walter. Michael...not the most beloved of the Losties...eh? As for the non-caucasians on Lost? Sun & Jin...Korean. Eko...African. Sayid...Iraqi. (Dont misread me here, I find Eko and Sayid also to be interesting the way they are) As Edmuse pointed out, you just can't get around the ethnicity. There are roles, both current and past, that Asian-Americans have/had that did circumvent this, but I think I can probably count them all with my ten fingers, and perhaps a toe or so. Recent obvious examples would be Sandra Oh in Arlis, Grace Park in Battlestar Galactica and Garret Wang in Star Trek Voyager.

"Americanized" ones, whose characters could've been played by any ole actors/actresses DDK is a Korean-American Actor who's played a number of "americanized" minor roles throughout his career, and who didn't speak Korean fluently prior to this role.
I'm sure if you were a close confidant of DDK, he'd tell you that he prefers roles that utilize his proficient English-speaking ability, rather than a scant arsenal of scowls, grimaces and expressions of curiousity. He of course would never admit this directly and out in the open, that'd be professional suicide.

Addendum: It has been pointed out to me that Hurley is a Hispanic-American, and Ana-Lucia was a Hispanic-American. I guess in their cases the writers did work around their ethnicity.

We have fleshed out backgrounds because that is the "concept of the show". Flashback after flashback after flashback. I agree with you that the writers have managed to create interesting and sympathetic characters in Jin and Sun but consider this...who are/were the major American characters on the show? Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Boone, Locke, Shannon, Hurley...all caucasian, with the exception of Michael and Walter. Michael...not the most beloved of the Losties...eh? As for the non-caucasians on Lost? Sun & Jin...Korean. Eko...African. Sayid...Iraqi. (Dont misread me here, I find Eko and Sayid also to be interesting the way they are) As Edmuse pointed out, you just can't get around the ethnicity. There are roles, both current and past, that Asian-Americans have/had that did circumvent this, but I think I can probably count them all with my ten fingers, and perhaps a toe or so. Recent obvious examples would be Sandra Oh in Arlis, Grace Park in Battlestar Galactica and Garret Wang in Star Trek Voyager.

So you agree with me about Sun/Jin being fleshed out chracters. That's great;)

Regarding the "main" characters you've listed: it's quite subjective. Sure, Jack, Kate, and Locke have had numerous flashbacks and extensive screen time, but Sawyer, Boone, Shannon, in terms of screentime and number of FBs, aren't what you would consider "main" characters. They are certainly popular amongst the viewers but they aren't necessarily central to the plotline, as was evidenced by Boone/Shannon's demise.

DDK is a Korean-American Actor who's played a number of "americanized" minor roles throughout his career, and who didn't speak Korean fluently prior to this role.
I'm sure if you were a close confidant of DDK, he'd tell you that he prefers roles that utilize his proficient English-speaking ability, rather than a scant arsenal of scowls, grimaces and expressions of curiousity. He of course would never admit this directly and out in the open, that'd be professional suicide.

And how would you know this? Do you know DDK personally?:biggrin:

Addendum: It has been pointed out to me that Hurley is a Hispanic-American, and Ana-Lucia was a Hispanic-American. I guess in their cases the writers did work around their ethnicity.

Yeah, so it appears that Lost is quite multi-ethnic. Hooray for that.

but Sawyer, Boone, Shannon, in terms of screentime and number of FBs, aren't what you would consider "main" characters
I would definitely catagorize Sawyer as a major character, more so than Sun and Jin. Boone, in season one, had an extensive amount of screentime (i.e. Locke and the hatch/plane). Regardless, the point I was trying to stress was not so much whether they were major characters or not, but rather, the fact that they were "caucasian American" characters. Numbering 6, or 8 if you include Hurley and Ana-Lucia to two "non-caucasian American" characters(Michael and Walt). As it stands now....all the non-caucasian major characters on the show are not American.
As for whether I know DDK personally or not...I don't have to know him to know that he'd rather be speaking, whether it be in English or Korean, than continuing his perpetual homage to Charlie Chaplin. Oration in conjunction with expressions of emotions is what acting is all about. Can you picture a production of Hamlet or Macbeth, where the main characters just use facial expressions and gestures to get their dialog across? "To Be or Not To Be, That is the Question..." How would one dictate that with facial expressions? Without dialog, DDK on Lost is little more than a circus clown with interchangeable happy and sad faces. Jorge Garcia would seem to be the one exception to the rule. The Hispanic-American character with the emphasis on "American". Happy Happy Joy Joy!! Of course the emphasis in this thread was "Asian-Americans".

Regardless, the point I was trying to stress was not so much whether they were major characters or not, but rather, the fact that they were "caucasian American" characters. Numbering 6, or 8 if you include Hurley and Ana-Lucia to two "non-caucasian American" characters(Michael and Walt). As it stands now....all the non-caucasian major characters on the show are not American.

It's an American show, isn't it?
(Not too sure where you were going with this.)
As for whether I know DDK personally or not...I don't have to know him to know that he'd rather be speaking, whether it be in English or Korean, than continuing his perpetual montage to Charlie Chaplin. Oration in conjunction with expressions of emotions is what acting is all about. Can you picture a production of Hamlet or Macbeth, where the main characters just use facial expressions and gestures to get their dialog across? "To Be or Not To Be, That is the Question..." How would one dictate that with facial expressions? Without dialog, DDK on Lost is little more than a circus clown with either a permanent happy or sad face.
You're assuming a lot about DDK. And your assumption is an opinion I happen to disagree with. Furthermore, what an insult to DDK for you to say he is "little more than a circus clown."

It's an American show, isn't it?
(Not too sure where you were going with this.)
Yes, and America is made up of more than just Caucasian-Americans the last I checked.
I'd say I'm a fan of DDK and other Korean-American actors out there (i.e. Philip Rhee, John Cho, Margaret Cho, Sandra Oh, Grace Park) A fan is more than simply watching their favorite actors in their various roles and saying Yes, Good. Yes, Good. It's also about being critical of the limitations and pros and cons of the various roles. LIB, I saw DDK in Ivanov, Crash, Crusade, The Shield, and in several other guest star appearances. I have a good idea what DDK is capable of. He is being under utilized on Lost, and this language-barrier is the main reason why. Unfortunately I don't see it getting better anytime soon. My prediction and hope is that he becomes a casualty in season three, and moves on to bigger and better things. Lost was great for him in terms of National/International exposure, but due to the inherent limitations of the role, I think it would be better for him to move on before he gets typecast and only remembered as the non-talking Asian in the big 21st century TV hit...Lost. The big question of course is, can DDK walk away from all the money that being a regular character in a mega popular TV show gets him?

Yes, and America is made up of more than just Caucasian-Americans the last I checked.

I thought the reason why you added Michael, Walt, Ana Lucia and Jorge was to emphasize the fact that there were non Caucasian-Americans on the show. I'm confused.


A fan is more than simply watching their favorite actors in their various roles and saying Yes, Good. Yes, Good. It's also about being critical of the limitations and pros and cons of the various roles. LIB, I saw DDK in Ivanov, Crash, Crusade, The Shield, and in several other guest star appearances. I have a good idea what DDK is capable of. He is being under utilized on Lost, and this language-barrier is the main reason why. Unfortunately I don't see it getting better anytime soon. My prediction and hope is that he becomes a casualty in season three, and moves on to bigger and better things.
I'm glad you support DDK in your own way.

I thought the reason why you added Michael, Walt, Ana Lucia and Jorge was to emphasize the fact that there were non Caucasian-Americans on the show. I'm confused.

Actually I was trying to emphasize the reverse...that there were not enough non-caucasian American characters on the show. With Michael and Walt in limbo and Ana-Lucia six-feet under, Hurley is the only one now. Curious, the way it all worked out.

I guess we do support our favorite actors in different ways. Mayhaps you have a similar stand to those of some 0.5 and first generation Asian-American friends I have . That DDK through Jin has received a heavenly gift from the White Powerhouse that is Hollywood, and that he should be eternally thankful to the powers that be and reciprocate by being the stereotypical Asian "Model Minority". In essence, keeping his mouth closed and thanking the creators and producers profusely for any small additions and/or dialog they deign to supplement to his character. The notion being that neither he, nor Yunjin for that matter, deserves to be in the same room with the caucasian cast members of Lost. The "Defeatist Mentality" God!, I hate it that quite a number of Asian-Americans still think that way!!

Actually I was trying to emphasize the reverse...that there were not enough non-caucasian American characters on the show. With Michael and Walt in limbo and Ana-Lucia six-feet under, Hurley is the only one now. Curious, the way it all worked out.

I guess we do support our favorite actors in different ways. Mayhaps you have a similar stand to those of some 0.5 and first generation Asian-American friends I have . That DDK through Jin has received a heavenly gift from the White Powerhouse that is Hollywood, and that he should be eternally thankful to the powers that be and reciprocate by being the stereotypical Asian "Model Minority". In essence, keeping his mouth closed and thanking the creators and producers profusely for any small additions and/or dialog they deign to supplement to his character. The notion being that neither he, nor Yunjin for that matter, deserves to be in the same room with the caucasian cast members of Lost. The "Defeatist Mentality" God!, I hate it that quite a number of Asian-Americans still think that way!!

Sounds like you have quite a chip on your shoulder.

ETA: I hope that doesn't sound mean! I just meant that your words seemed harsh. And I think you kind of exaggerated things a bit....

Sounds like you have quite a chip on your shoulder.

Maybe your right.:rolleyes:
Anyways this thread needed a good updating, it was starting to stagnate. Thanks for the contributions LIB.:)
As far as Jin is concerned, I'll strive to be the perpetual optimist.:hypocrit:

Maybe your right.:rolleyes:
Anyways this thread needed a good updating, it was starting to stagnate. Thanks for the contributions LIB.:)

Cool:biggrin:

Yes! The amount of roles written expressly for Asian characters is very low. But that's my point. There are lots and lots of roles written in which the ethnicity of the character is not a factor. But the default for these roles, it seems to me, is Caucasian-- if the writer/director/casting director doesn't have an ethnicity in mind, then subconsciously, they probably have white in mind. When that factor can be overcome, when the creative staff of a production can truly say "we don't have any ethnicity in mind for this character, so why not hire a Hispanic actor or a black actor, or an Asian actor, or a white actor" -- in fact, when the consideration is not taken into account at all -- then there might be some parity. Until then, an Asian American actor is behind the eightball-- if the role he's auditioning for is not an expressly-written "Asian character," he has to, in some way, however subtly, convince the casting director that it could be an "Asian character," rather than just having that character be Asian because it doesn't really matter.

What I find curious is that if you want to see Asian characters in TV shows, where their ethnicity isn't overemphasized, most likely you'll find them in Sci-Fi shows. The earliest example I can think of is George Takei as Sulu in the original Star Trek. Although he was Japanese, they never overemphasized it. Other examples include, Grace Park: the android infiltrator in the new Battlestar Galactica, Garret Wang: Ensign Harry Kim in Star Trek Voyager, Linda Park: Hoshi Sato in Star Trek Enterprise, Tamlyn Tomiko in Stargate SG1 and even DDK: Lieutenant John Matheson in Crusade(Babylon 5 tie-in). So if you want to see Asian-American actors free of the yoke, just look to the stars. lol. Gene Roddenberry, what a visionary he was!

Now, I don't think that's the only reason for having them on the show. It's not so gratuitous-- there are thematic and storyline reasons for their being there. For instance, it was established early on that Jin and Sun were to be seperate from the rest of the Losties because of the language and cultural barriers. This "outcast among the outcasts" idea was really intreguing. Granted, I suppose, it could have bene done with any nationality, but having them be Korean, I think made them even more intreguingly foreign and exotic to American an European audiences.

Of course, that leads right back to the problem-- Asian and Asian American actors being cast for their exoticism...

when I watched the S1 DVD extras I remember TPTB saying that when Yunjin came in for an interview they were surprised and blown away that she was a big movie star in Korea and that they just had to have her on the show. What I got from this comment was that they were focused on the international appeal of Yunjin and possibly that they didn't plan to have Koreans on the show until they realised it would help rating overseas.

What I find curious is that if you want to see Asian characters in TV shows, where their ethnicity isn't overemphasized, most likely you'll find them in Sci-Fi shows. The earliest example I can think of is George Takei as Sulu in the original Star Trek. Although he was Japanese, they never overemphasized it...But what was emphasized was the multiethnicity of the crew. So, in a way the ethnicity of each crew member was emphasized, or each non-white-American crew member at least, including Sulu, Uhura and Chekov. In 1966-67, they were conspicuous in their presence.

when I watched the S1 DVD extras I remember TPTB saying that when Yunjin came in for an interview they were surprised and blown away that she was a big movie star in Korea and that they just had to have her on the show. What I got from this comment was that they were focused on the international appeal of Yunjin and possibly that they didn't plan to have Koreans on the show until they realised it would help rating overseas.Hmmm...interesting!

But what was emphasized was the multiethnicity of the crew. So, in a way the ethnicity of each crew member was emphasized, or each non-white-American crew member at least, including Sulu, Uhura and Chekov. In 1966-67, they were conspicuous in their presence.

That's definitely true. I think Star Trek is also famous for the first interacial kiss on network TV (Kirk and Uhura in the episode Plato's Stepchildren) Chekov, BTW, was introduced to try to get younger viewers to watch the show. (Which was why he wore that Beatles hair style wig)
Sulu as a character was Japanese, but he was much more than his ethnicity, as were Uhura and Chekov.

That's definitely true. I think Star Trek is also famous for the first interacial kiss on network TV (Kirk and Uhura in the episode Plato's Stepchildren) Chekov, BTW, was introduced to try to get younger viewers to watch the show. (Which was why he wore that Beatles hair style wig)
Sulu as a character was Japanese, but he was much more than his ethnicity, as were Uhura and Chekov.

do you think one of the reasons that space shows tend to portray asians more as human rather than stereotypes is because they tend to follow the philosophy that in the future things will be more advanced, i.e. race relations will be better, people will not be as short sighted, narrow minded.

do you think one of the reasons that space shows tend to portray asians more as human rather than stereotypes is because they tend to follow the philosophy that in the future things will be more advanced, i.e. race relations will be better, people will not be as short sighted, narrow minded.

I think the Star Trek universe is supposed to be this ultra positive utopianistic vision of the future where humanity has freed itself from it's social and economic problems and people live not to accumulate wealth and assets but rather to better themselves physically, academically and spiritually (what the republicans would probably call a liberal pipe dream). You also have Sci-fi shows/movies that show a more dystopic future, such as BladeRunner or Battlestar Galactica(New series). In Bladerunner all the wealthy caucasians and wealthy people in general have moved to off-world colonies, leaving Earth with its majority Asian population.
To answer your question though, I think your right. I also believe that Sci-fi allows creators to think outside of the box, because the fans of sci-fi tend to be more open-minded than Americans that don't watch Sci-fi and subsist on CSI, Survivor and/or American Idol.

Hey melikon, what do you think of Sandra Oh's role on Grey's Anatomy (assuming you watch the show of course)

Ermm....uhh......OK I'll be honest, never watched Gray's anatomy. Never even gave it a try. My impression was that its just another General Hospital prime-time type of show, so I never gave it a chance....not my cup of tea. I did see Sandra Oh recently in the movie Sideways, thought she was pretty funny there, although it was just another role where an Asian woman happens to be the love interest of one of the main caucasian characters. I heard somewhere that Sandra Oh's love interest in Grays Anatomy is an African-American, but aside from that I don't know anything else. To me, Sandra's best role to date is still Rita Wu from Arlis. That role was like tailor made for her. Do you like Sandra in Gray's? Maybe I'll borrow the first season from Netflix. Always try to watch shows with Asian-American actors/actresses. For example, I've fallen in love with Grace Park in the new Battlestar Galactica. I'd love to see Yunjin or DDK as a guest or regular character on that show. DDK as a Cylon, that'd be cool.

Ermm....uhh......OK I'll be honest, never watched Gray's anatomy. Never even gave it a try. My impression was that its just another General Hospital prime-time type of show, so I never gave it a chance....not my cup of tea. I did see Sandra Oh recently in the movie Sideways, thought she was pretty funny there, although it was just another role where an Asian woman happens to be the love interest of one of the main caucasian characters. I heard somewhere that Sandra Oh's love interest in Grays Anatomy is an African-American, but aside from that I don't know anything else. To me, Sandra's best role to date is still Rita Wu from Arlis. That role was like tailor made for her. Do you like Sandra in Gray's? Maybe I'll borrow the first season from Netflix. Always try to watch shows with Asian-American actors/actresses. For example, I've fallen in love with Grace Park in the new Battlestar Galactica. I'd love to see Yunjin or DDK as a guest or regular character on that show. DDK as a Cylon, that'd be cool.

yeah I didn't wach grey's anatomy until recently because I don't really like hospital shows (speaking of which aren't there a lot of asians on ER?) but Grey's is actually a really funny show, though the plot is basically driven by relationships. I don't want to biased you too much before you watch the series, but I will tell you the show is produced by a woman of colour (I think she's african-american) and Sandra Oh gets some juicy lines about being Asian that will definitely make you laugh. And yes she's dating an african american on the show.

My favourite Sandra Oh movie is double happiness because it's the first time i saw her, but I'll have to check out Arlis.

The best way to make the American public love you is by making them laugh. I think the success of African-Americans in Hollywood can be, in large part, attributed to a select few comedians that really got the attention of mainstream America. Bill Cosby, Richard Pryor and Eddie Murphy. Cosby and Pryor were stand-up comedians that smartly delved into the TV/Movies markets, exponentially increasing their potential fans and audiences. Eddie Murphy, with his great skits on SNL(i.e. Buckwheat, Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood, Gumby, Stevie Wonder) became an even bigger superstar with his movies(48 Hours, Beverly Hills Cop, Coming to America, Dr. Doolittle). Chris Rock's success and various shows such as "In Living Color" can all be attributed to Eddie Murphy's success. This is what Asian-Americans need if they really want to get a foothold in American mass media and Hollywood. Sandra Oh was a good start, Margaret Cho was ok, but what we really need is a big time Asian-American funny man/woman to get the attention of the American public. Martial arts stars and serious actors is not going to be enough.

The best way to make the American public love you is by making them laugh. I think the success of African-Americans in Hollywood can be, in large part, attributed to a select few comedians that really got the attention of mainstream America. Bill Cosby, Richard Pryor and Eddie Murphy. Cosby and Pryor were stand-up comedians that smartly delved into the TV/Movies markets, exponentially increasing their potential fans and audiences. Eddie Murphy, with his great skits on SNL(i.e. Buckwheat, Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood, Gumby, Stevie Wonder) became an even bigger superstar with his movies(48 Hours, Beverly Hills Cop, Coming to America, Dr. Doolittle). Chris Rock's success and various shows such as "In Living Color" can all be attributed to Eddie Murphy's success. This is what Asian-Americans need if they really want to get a foothold in American mass media and Hollywood. Sandra Oh was a good start, Margaret Cho was ok, but what we really need is a big time Asian-American funny man/woman to get the attention of the American public. Martial arts stars and serious actors is not going to be enough.

Yeah, I'm interested to see what happens to Sandra Oh after Grey's Anatomy, will she be as successful in movies?

Beau Sia would be a good person, funny, but aware.

The best way to make the American public love you is by making them laugh. I think the success of African-Americans in Hollywood can be, in large part, attributed to a select few comedians that really got the attention of mainstream America. Bill Cosby, Richard Pryor and Eddie Murphy. Cosby and Pryor were stand-up comedians that smartly delved into the TV/Movies markets, exponentially increasing their potential fans and audiences. Eddie Murphy, with his great skits on SNL(i.e. Buckwheat, Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood, Gumby, Stevie Wonder) became an even bigger superstar with his movies(48 Hours, Beverly Hills Cop, Coming to America, Dr. Doolittle). Chris Rock's success and various shows such as "In Living Color" can all be attributed to Eddie Murphy's success. This is what Asian-Americans need if they really want to get a foothold in American mass media and Hollywood. Sandra Oh was a good start, Margaret Cho was ok, but what we really need is a big time Asian-American funny man/woman to get the attention of the American public. Martial arts stars and serious actors is not going to be enough.

Hi again. That's a great point about comedy. Harold and Kumar go to Amsterdam by the way is in pre/production. In any case, it's being made now. Ha, it's a start. Most folks of all color i know, when they gave it a try, think it's one of the funniest movies they've ever seen. The thing is there's a fine line between being funny and using self effacing humor, racial or otherwise, and just being a clown, a goof. AA comedians that take that route do more harm than good imo. You want to get to a point where it's just funny, and not relying on only racial humor Kinda like in real life.

About the sci-fi comments, you know I don't watch much sci fi unless you consider Lost part of that. Or movies like Aliens etc. However, adding to your answer I'd also say you see more Asians on those shows because it emphasizes all of humanity v. the others, in this case aliens or otherworldly encounters.

As to Sandra Oh and Grey's Anatomy, she's a great actor and I'm aware it's done by an African American women, but that makes it all the more interesting in that there are no Asian American men doctors in it. Let me put it this way, how many hospitals on the west or east coasts don't have AA, including Inian American male doctors? Also, is there some unwritten Hollywood rule where it's forbidden to show a sexual and normal relationship between an AA man and AA woman? Again, like real life. It gets bizarre, because according to mainstream entertainment, it doesn't exist.

I'll also point out another factor or reason, besides the population growth I mentioned earlier in the thread, in why represention in media, including advertising for AA is low. Marketing studies have shown that AA buy virtually the same across the board as Caucasians. As opposed to African Americans in some cases and Latinos. In fact, many graphs or "pie charts" at marketing agencies don't even have an AA segment. The reason oft cited is it's part of the Caucasian part. It's taken for granted because that's what AA behavior has dictated. As the pop numbers grow so will the purchasing power but in many respects it may not make a difference.

Good to hear from you again inflighttriangulation. Actually saw Harold and Kumar go to White Castle a couple months ago. Very funny movie. Personally I found Kumar the more humorous of the two. I'll definitely go see the sequel when it comes out. Getting back to the humor point. Eddie Murphy quite often poked fun at fellow African-Americans, with a fair amount of denigration. For whatever reasons, I think I could accept and appreciate jokes and/or humor poking fun at Asians, if the mouth it's coming from belongs to an Asian-American comedian/actor rather than a caucasian or African-American. At the very least, you'd know the sentiments to be genuine rather than based on prejudiced/racist viewpoints.
I agree with you completely about the demographics and marketing tactics of Hollywood. The big difference however is that it is the "Americanized" Asian-Americans that are indistinguishable from the Caucasian Americans. The Asian-American immigrants(1st generation), especially now with streaming internet video and DVD's, watch movies and serialized shows from their motherland more than they watch anything on American network or cable television.

As to Sandra Oh and Grey's Anatomy, she's a great actor and I'm aware it's done by an African American women, but that makes it all the more interesting in that there are no Asian American men doctors in it. Let me put it this way, how many hospitals on the west or east coasts don't have AA, including Inian American male doctors? Also, is there some unwritten Hollywood rule where it's forbidden to show a sexual and normal relationship between an AA man and AA woman? Again, like real life. It gets bizarre, because according to mainstream entertainment, it doesn't exist.

I'll also point out another factor or reason, besides the population growth I mentioned earlier in the thread, in why represention in media, including advertising for AA is low. Marketing studies have shown that AA buy virtually the same across the board as Caucasians. As opposed to African Americans in some cases and Latinos. In fact, many graphs or "pie charts" at marketing agencies don't even have an AA segment. The reason oft cited is it's part of the Caucasian part. It's taken for granted because that's what AA behavior has dictated. As the pop numbers grow so will the purchasing power but in many respects it may not make a difference.

Haven't watched Harold and Kumar, but I hear good things.

About Grey's, they do have the south asian guy's whose a psychiatrists, but he's just a minor character that's a bit of a goof, so yeah they don't have a strong Asian-american male character.

I'd like to see those marketing studies, any chance you can provide links.

Good to hear from you again inflighttriangulation. Actually saw Harold and Kumar go to White Castle a couple months ago. Very funny movie. Personally I found Kumar the more humorous of the two. I'll definitely go see the sequel when it comes out. Getting back to the humor point. Eddie Murphy quite often poked fun at fellow African-Americans, with a fair amount of denigration. For whatever reasons, I think I could accept and appreciate jokes and/or humor poking fun at Asians, if the mouth it's coming from belongs to an Asian-American comedian/actor rather than a caucasian or African-American. At the very least, you'd know the sentiments to be genuine rather than based on prejudiced/racist viewpoints.
I agree with you completely about the demographics and marketing tactics of Hollywood. The big difference however is that it is the "Americanized" Asian-Americans that are indistinguishable from the Caucasian Americans. The Asian-American immigrants(1st generation), especially now with streaming internet video and DVD's, watch movies and serialized shows from their motherland more than they watch anything on network or cable television.

I think the acceptibility of racial humor really depend on each comedian, I don't know if I would be okay or not. I know there are some jokes that Margaret Cho makes that I just wince at. And again I'd like to see those marketing studies because I'm personally not convinced that "Americanized" Asian Americans necessariy are indistinguishable from Caucasians.

Hey Penyours,

Here's some links showing population #'s and purchasing power. Yet the general trend has been to ignore this segment of the population despite the money. There are some valid reasons cited of course, but the bottom line is AA may shop more on average than other groups but they consistently target status brand names and have a style indistinguishable from caucasians. The overall consensus is this segment has been mostly ignored despite the purchasing power. That may say more to Asia America than the advertisers. There's more, but this is the quickest I could come up with as well as it's been awhile.

http://www.uspaacc.com/uspac/home/asian_facts_figures.htm


http://www.brandweek.com/bw/news/spotlight/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001955982

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_display.cfm?release=22050

Check this out. Oh-k, well apparently it's so compelling I just realized they must have taken it down(probably months ago) to keep things fresh. Well, if either of you had seen this marketing program when it was running it was pretty sleek in terms of class, style, and overall appeal Ha, despite the car, the segments were surprisingly impressive in scope and effort. This was one of those things you're kind of in shock and dumbfounded because you're so surprised someone actually did this.

http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?&aid=59464

Totally agree, Margaret Cho can be such a tool sometimes. Ditto for Bobby Lee. Melikon, overall I'm with you. But the way I see it in many instances there's a difference. It depends who they're playing to. Many African American comedians wrote and performed their material exclusively for a like audience. Anybody else in the audience was secondary. You could see their attitude was they didn't give a hoot what others thought. There was solidarity there. Relating, insider humor if you will. If you wanted to step into that world, then welcome. Other parts just cut across the human experience and resonated with everyone. Bravo! Nothing wrong with that as comedy and laughter ultimately is universal. Did I string enough cliches there?

Now with many Asian American comedians you can tell the material is geared to appease Caucasian audiences and feed right into those stereotypes. It plays to that angle. To the point where the audience is virtually embarrassed for them. Big difference. Is it just a mass appeal thing, career survival, low turnout by AAs themselves? Likely all the above. Don't get me wrong, I really love stand up. All kinds. Probably the hardest job one could take on and be successful. But I definitely see an identity difference in the material.

Speaking of Harold and Kumar....I guess you've all heard by now that Doogie Howser came out of the closet. So I guess he was really acting in that movie, since he seemed to always be surrounded by loose and sexy women.;)

I agree with what you people have been discussing here. Asian women have seem to have had more success, in relation to diversity of roles, than Asian males. In the 70s to mid 80s, the only time you saw Asian men in the movies or TV was if they were kung fu masters, monks or laborers. That changed after Michael Cimino's "Year of the Dragon" came out in 1985. After that, Asian men often portrayed gangsters or thugs. Nowadays, you'd be lucky to see an Asian male playing any kind of regular role in the movies or TV(except for the same stars that were around since as far back as the 70s like Jackie Chan). This is why it's so great that we got DDK and Yunjin on Lost. Of course, like everyone else here, I wish they got more screen time and that Jin could learn to speak English.

That changed after Michael Cimino's "Year of the Dragon" came out in 1985. After that, Asian men often portrayed gangsters or thugs. Nowadays, you'd be lucky to see an Asian male playing any kind of regular role in the movies or TV

You forgot haggard looking and/or burned out grocery/convenience store owners. Considering that Charlie Chan was portrayed by Warner Oland, a caucasian actor of Swedish descent, you've got to admit Asian-American Actors have come a long way since the 1920s.:rolleyes:
I must be the only Asian-American that actually liked Year of the Dragon. The movie was utter nonsense (i.e. the level of violence in Chinatown) but pretty entertaining. It's a gangster flick. You gotta watch it keeping that in mind. Do you think all Italian-Americans are overweight Manicotti eating mafiosos? That all African-Americans are Colt 45 drinking, red or blue bandana wearing, machine gun packing gangstas? Gangster flicks are exercises in exaggerated stereotypes. A chance for Hollywood to really be itself, and not be burdened down with political correctness. As long as the movies are entertaining, I say allow them this indulgence.
The problem I have with Jin is not that he is/was a "reluctant" Korean gangster but rather that he doesn't speak English. It seems like TPTB decided in the beginning that they wanted an Asian male character on the show but they didn't want any chance of him becoming a main character so they ingeniously gave him the perpetual handicap of not speaking or understanding English. In that sense TPTB are like those two cartoon characters in the Guiness Draft commercials that pat each other on the back and shout "Brilliant!".

In that sense TPTB are like those two cartoon characters in the Guiness Draft commercials that pat each other on the back and shout "Brilliant!".
Pretty funny image if you superimpose cardboard cutouts of Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof over the original brewers.:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
I agree with LostIslandBaby and Edmuse. The fact that Jin doesn't speak English makes him a more unique and interesting character, IMO. I'm more upset over his lack of screen time in season two and so far in season three. In season one Jin was in the thick of things, from his early conflict with Michael leading to his departure on the raft with Michael, Sawyer and Walt. He had a good start in season two, interacting with the tailies, but then disappeared once he returned to Sun and the Fuselage Losties. If he doesn't get a flashback in season three(Glass Ballerina was Sun's, IMO), and the TPTB give Juliet, Paulo, and any other newbies a flashback I'll agree with you Melikon, DDK should leave the show for his career's sake and ask TPTB for a glorious death. Comparing Lost to the show Heroes, I have to say I like the way the writers of Heroes are developing and handling the Japanese character Hiro much more than TPTB of Lost are handling Jin.

Comparing Lost to the show Heroes, I have to say I like the way the writers of Heroes are developing and handling the Japanese character Hiro much more than TPTB of Lost are handling Jin.

Heroes doesn't have Jack, Kate and Sawyer....or the mystical, ever quotable, white hunter Locke. If you take the net worth of all the threads on the Fuse, and count up all the J/K/S/L fans (easily determined by simply looking at the avatars of all the fuselagers) I think you'll find that over 50% of the material is all about Kate selecting her lover (Jack or Sawyer) and every minute detail about Locke and his actor persona Terry O'Quinn. With a little "Desmond is so hot...blah blah blah" added in. TPTB are merely giving the fans what they want, which unfortunately doesn't coincide with what I really want, but then again I'm the minority. I wouldn't say Lost has dumbed down, since that would be insulting that self same +50% of the Fuselage that merely want kissy kissy Kate, shirtless Desmond and Locke the imperialist White Hunter, so I'll just say that I'm still waiting to be entertained. A wait of ~3 months with no real guarantees of further character development for Jin. Perhaps I will check out Heroes. You can pretty much depend on Sci-Fi shows to develop Asian/Asian-American characters, more so than dramas and whatever you would categorize Lost as.

Heroes doesn't have Jack, Kate and Sawyer....or the mystical, ever quotable, white hunter Locke. If you take the net worth of all the threads on the Fuse, and count up all the J/K/S/L fans (easily determined by simply looking at the avatars of all the fuselagers) I think you'll find that over 50% of the material is all about Kate selecting her lover (Jack or Sawyer) and every minute detail about Locke and his actor persona Terry O'Quinn. With a little "Desmond is so hot...blah blah blah" added in. TPTB are merely giving the fans what they want, which unfortunately doesn't coincide with what I really want, but then again I'm the minority. I wouldn't say Lost has dumbed down, since that would be insulting that self same +50% of the Fuselage that merely want kissy kissy Kate, shirtless Desmond and Locke the imperialist White Hunter, so I'll just say that I'm still waiting to be entertained. A wait of ~3 months with no real guarantees of further character development for Jin. Perhaps I will check out Heroes. You can pretty much depend on Sci-Fi shows to develop Asian/Asian-American characters, more so than dramas and whatever you would categorize Lost as.

The thing about Heroes is that they seem to have purposely made all the men of colour very likeable and interesting in the show, After Hiro and Ando, they next most likeable male is the south Asian character Mohinder, and after that it's a toss up between DL, a black male character and Matt a white male. Also, Micah is an intriguing character as well. I do wonder if this was a conscious choice and what the exact reasonings were. However, for all the great praise Heroes gets for it's male characters, I do have to say that the female characters overall tend to lag behind.

The creators of Heroes have to be very careful in the way they handle all these non-caucasian characters, which is why they probably made them all as likeable as possible. I think Americans are more forgiving towards flawed white characters than they are towards flawed non-white characters. Lost is a perfect example of this. Locke, for all intents and purposes, killed Boone. Michael killed Ana and Libby. Yet the fans detest Michael but still love Locke. Sawyer screwed up the killing of that US Marshall, yet the fans are still infatuated with him. Desmond murdered Inman, yet he's the most beloved "unknown" character on Lost. Jin was a stereotypical controlling Asian-male in the beginning of the series but he softened up towards the end of season two, yet many fans still dislike him and still identify him as that stereotypical Asian male character. If Locke were an African-American or Asian, do you think he'd still be so revered, after killing Boone and then saying he was a "necessary sacrifice"?
Get the freak out of here!!! Fans would be mailing and calling ABC, emailing TPTB, demanding that Locke be killed off! By the same notion, If Jin was white(and looked like Sawyer or Desmond) and still domineering...male chauvinism would now be in vogue.
The creators of Heroes are really walking on eggshells with all these non-caucasian "Male" characters. I wish them well.

:) I saw Daniel on Spiderman II last night. Almost missed him!

:) I saw Daniel on Spiderman II last night. Almost missed him!
I did miss him. Hmm. Must have gone out for popcorn at the time.
DDK would make a great Sunfire or Silver Samurai.
No asian characters in the Spider-Man universe, unfortunately.:frown:

Hey Folks, don't know if you can get CBC in the states but check this out if you can

Dragon Boys january 7&8 at 8:00 pm on CBC television

It's about gangs in chinatown and it's an all asian cast. Though there's been so much drama around this mini-series that I have no idea if it will be any good or not.

Sorry I'm having a brain cramp what sci-fi space show was DDK on, BSG?

Sorry I'm having a brain cramp what sci-fi space show was DDK on, BSG?

He had a ~1-2 episode gig in Star Trek Enterprise, but he was a regular in Crusade (Babylon 5 spin-off)

Hi everyone-

Just wanted to let you know how much I've really enjoyed reading this thread.
The points you each make are very articulate and very well thought out. It's not surprising though. I should know to expect this level of dialogue from fans of our show.

Thanks for being so thought provoking and knowledgeable.

Best,
Daniel

Hi Daniel!

Thanks for reading our postings and checking out the thread!

Finally got to see Better Luck Tomorrow. Pretty entertaining movie, but I definitely got the sense that it would be more entertaining for Asian-Americans than for non-asian viewers. Justin Lin really got the characters right on. The four principal characters all reminded me of Asian guys I knew back in High School. Funny that even though they all got in trouble and used drugs, they all still managed to get like 4.0 GPAs and get into their first choice colleges. It was refreshing to see that Justin didn't overemphasize and overdramatize the racism angle. I'll probably check out Annapolis and Tokyo Drift next.
Tokyo Drift will be hard, but I'll stomach it.
Talked with my Asian friend's younger brother and sister the other day (8 & 10 years old respectively), asked them if they knew who Bruce Lee was. They had no clue. Sad.
Bruce Lee has already become a fading memory. Another decade or so, no kids will know who he was. :frown: Considering how much of a superstar Bruce Lee was, I can't help but think that Asian-American actors like John Lone, Russell Wong, Garret Wang, B.D. Wong, Phillip Rhee and DDK got no shot at immortality and will fade from peoples memories even faster.

Bruce Lee. Who's that? Just kiddin. ;)
Rewatched Enter the Dragon this past weekend. Can't help but laugh while watching his movies now. All the hooting, all the cardboard villains, all the poor out-of-synch dubbing...
Have to admit though, Bruce was incredible with his close-ups... all those wild and intense facial expressions. I don't know if it's because of the way he looks, but Daniel Dae Kim/Jin seems to have one set facial expression whether he be angry, happy, sad or scared. Sort of reminds me of Steven Segal with his singular "angry" face or that comic book character, the incredible Hulk. Regardless, DDK's still the best!!!

Bruce Lee. Who's that? Just kiddin. ;)
Rewatched Enter the Dragon this past weekend. Can't help but laugh while watching his movies now. All the hooting, all the cardboard villains, all the poor out-of-synch dubbing...


Hey in Enter the Dragon, that's actually Bruce Lee's voice. If you really want to laugh, watch the original Game of Death. Bruce Lee's only in the last ~15 minutes of that movie, the rest of the time it's some poor look-alike actor that's always got his back to the camera. In one scene the producers literally pasted a photo of Bruce Lee's face to a mirror...looks absolutely ridiculous.
I thought the evil Mr. Hahn in Enter the Dragon was great.
Lots of memorable quotes:
"I look forward to a tournament of truly epic proportions"
"You have our gratitude"
"We are investing in corruption, Mr. Roeper."

The best of the lot has be Jim Kelly's "Man, you come right out of a comic book!"