When Jack was giving Libby the heroin, I was kinda hoping it would bring her back into conciousness (which it did) and she would somehow miraculously be okay, but then say, "what are you doing?! i'm was a herioin addict! dont give me that shiot!" b/c maybe thats why she was in the mental institution. ..sometimes they house the pyschs with the people in rehab... and thats how Hurley recognized her. far fetched, but i was hoping she'd be ok. :frown:

I was hoping the heroin would allow her to identify her killer... which she did but Jack misinterpreted her last words.

About the heroin, don't you find it funny that Sawyer had to give up the guns because of it? That's a good thing Charlie didn't take the drugs back when Sawyer offered them to him... Libby would have died in pain.

Heroin is an opiate. Opium is often used to help numb pain and is frequently used in medical situations. Morhpine, for instance, is an opiate, as well as codeine.

At least, that's my thought.

Is it possible that Jack gave her too much, to put her out of her pain? The look on Hurley's face when he gave her the shot was so sad.

Yeah, too much heroin would suppress Libby's heart rate and respirations... and she would die, but I've got no experience with dosage of heroin.

i don't understand why he had to give her the heroin in the the first place. At first i thought he wanted it so she wouldn't be in pain during surgery, but then he didn't do surgery! he knew that she was going to die and instead of ending it for her quickly he wastes time having Sawyer go after the drugs?

none of it made any sense. i'm not for euthanasia or anything, but i'm not for wasting drugs on somebody who's already dead if they can have a viable use later on. Also, why was Kate so broken up about it? (not that i'm complaining: it was sweet how Sawyer took her into his arms)

The heroin was explained to be used to ease her pain, while she died. I wouldn't call it wasting it either, considering there's a whole bunch of heroin.

yeah i was wondering if the heroin was to dull her pain OR

did he give her an overdose to ELIMINATE her pain

I doubt it. Jack's not into that.

Well, he's played Dr. Kavorkian before. I wondered the same thing.

Morphine (Heroine) is given all the time in hospitals it is the same thing. Two gunshots in the stomach is for sure called for a dose. That is a very painful and slow death. I dont think there is a need to read into that Jack was doing Libby a favor. Im glad she did not suffer. As far as dosage Im sure Jack knew what he was doing he is a doctor after all. Thats just my opinion though:undecide:

I doubt it. Jack's not into that.

i think Jack smothered the marshall after Sawyer didn't shoot him correctly. so he could have done this.
i don't think he gave her a lethal dose of heroin. she blead to death and Jack took the pain away. but i could be wrong.

one more thing why does Jack treat people like they are children. Libby said "Michael" a death bed word and he immediately thinks that she cares so much for michael on her death bed that she wants to know his condition.

Morphine (Heroine) is given all the time in hospitals it is the same thing. Two gunshots in the stomach is for sure called for a dose. That is a very painful and slow death. I dont think there is a need to read into that Jack was doing Libby a favor. Im glad she did not suffer. As far as dosage Im sure Jack knew what he was doing he is a doctor after all. Thats just my opinion though:undecide:

Morphine and heroin are different drugs. They do both act on the opiate receptors, but are different nonetheless.

Agree that JAck was just trying to ease her pain as she passed.

right on...poor libby. two fine ladies pass in two episodes. why oh why

I know I'm morbid (*really* morbid), but all I could think of is that Family Guy line: "Haha, that's trick gum. Now you're addicted to heroin!" Yes, I know I'm sick...

i'm thinking jack gave her the herion to ease her pain b/c when he saw hurley i would hope that if he was going to give her a lethal dosage he would wait and let hurley spend some time with libby but he didn't so i 'm thinking it was to ease her pain.

right on...poor libby. two fine ladies pass in two episodes. why oh why

Not to worry waswere, Sonya Walger is gonna be on Lost!

Not to worry waswere,Spoiler Ahead, Highlight to Read:Sonya Walger is gonna be on Lost!

my my my


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and she's a looker

my my my

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and she's a looker
Sleep well tonight, My friend! lol

What pain? She was lying there in the clothes she was wearing when she was shot, still, peaceful, apparently unconscious. There was no indication she was feeling ANYTHING and that is no surprise if she had lost a lot of blood. She would have been in shock and she would not have been feeling a thing.

I think this was one of those things that the writer’s throw in there because they need to accomplish something else (get the guns).

It makes no sense but then again, it made no sense at all that Sawyer couldn’t go get the Heroin without Kate. Who was going to STOP him from doing it his way? That whole exchange was ridiculous.

I know the show can’t be entirely realistic but please! The writing has become unacceptably lazy.

If they don’t want to write a realistic reason for how we went from A to B, why not just have a narrator come on whenever necessary and tell us what they want us to know? The narrator could say something like, “Although at one time Sawyer had all of the guns and made it clear he planned to keep them, Jack managed to change Sawyer’s mind and now Jack has all of the guns. And now, back to our story.”

Doing it that way would be no less distracting than some of the ridiculous premises we’ve seen this season. Geeez, they are making it impossible to willingly suspend disbelief for more than a few minutes at a time. It's like they are serving us a lobster dinner on a paper plate.

What pain? She was lying there in the clothes she was wearing when she was shot, still, peaceful, apparently unconscious. There was no indication she was feeling ANYTHING and that is no surprise if she had lost a lot of blood. She would have been in shock and she would not have been feeling a thing.

Trust me, I've treated gun shot wounds and they are painful. Just because she wasn't thrashing around doesn't mean she's not in pain. Because of the severe loss of blood, and possibly septsis, she wouldn't be the most animated person, but her brain is still processing that pain.

Well, he's played Dr. Kavorkian before. I wondered the same thing.[/quo

When????
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[quote=Jakko DeDust;978718]Well, he's played Dr. Kavorkian before. I wondered the same thing.

when????

Morphine and heroin are different drugs. They do both act on the opiate receptors, but are different nonetheless.

Agree that JAck was just trying to ease her pain as she passed.

Heroin is morphine with an added diacetyl group, allowing the drug to cross the Blood-Brain-Barrier faster than morphine which is partially metabolized before it reaches the pain receptors. Because of the added diacetyl group, Heroin crosses the Blood-Brain-Barrier faster and then turns into morphine once it reaches the brain.

Heroin is morphine with an added diacetyl group, allowing the drug to cross the Blood-Brain-Barrier faster than morphine which is partially metabolized before it reaches the pain receptors. Because of the added diacetyl group, Heroin crosses the Blood-Brain-Barrier faster and then turns into morphine once it reaches the brain.

The man knows his intravenous drugs ladies and gentleman.

I also wondered at the dosage as it looked at least 40cc's which even mixed mildely looks to be a lot. I wonder if maybe it was not a lethal dosage.

My wife and I both, independently, came to the conclusion that Jack was delibrately giving Libby a lethal dose of heroin.

Jack was unwilling to do the same for the marshall until Sawyer's mistake, however, Jack didn't know the marshall prior to his injury. Jack knew Libby and he knew she was in for terrible suffering before she passed away. It would be very easy for Jack to claim he was giving it to her to ease her suffering while actually giving her a lethal dose, thus sparing them all the torturous experience of her death. Dulling the pain and letting her expire naturally would've dragged the experience out for everyone for the same end result.

It's just MO of course, but I don't see it as out of character for Jack.

Is it possible that Jack gave her too much, to put her out of her pain? The look on Hurley's face when he gave her the shot was so sad.
My thought always was that Jack was committing an act of euthanasia. He wouldn't be able to treat her wound and she'd eventually die from bleeding out or infection, and he was sparing her any more suffering by "putting her down" much as we would a pet.
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Trust me, I've treated gun shot wounds and they are painful. Just because she wasn't thrashing around doesn't mean she's not in pain. Because of the severe loss of blood, and possibly septsis, she wouldn't be the most animated person, but her brain is still processing that pain.
Exactly, thanks for confirming that.

The problem with Heroin is how strong is it. is it cut down or is it strong. you never really know until it's too late. thats what happens to drug users. they think they are buying some normal steet level heroin and then take the same level as they normaly do and over dose and die.

I stupidly thought for a second that the heroin might help her... oh well it seemed like the heroin made her go faster.

It's been pointed out that Jack may have had some experience with Heroin while in Tailand. Seems to me he said something to the effect that he knew he was giving poor Libby a lethal dose....she seemed to die as the drug 'hit" her. Why did no one think to question her first???

It's been pointed out that Jack may have had some experience with Heroin while in Tailand. Seems to me he said something to the effect that he knew he was giving poor Libby a lethal dose....she seemed to die as the drug 'hit" her. Why did no one think to question her first???

No need to question her since Michael's story was just perfect. As for a lethal dose... doesn't matter, Libby was near death anyway.

No need to question her since Michael's story was just perfect. As for a lethal dose... doesn't matter, Libby was near death anyway.
Yeah, but Michael's story wasn't "perfect." Michael said he heard "shots" and came out to see what happened. If Libby had been shot already, how was she to know Michael had been shot? Jack needs to fiigure out that Libby didn't know Michael was shot (unless Jack was assuming Libby though Henry went and shot him lying in bed). Also, Ana was shot only once so Michael wouldn't have said "shots." So Libby had to have been shot before Michael and Libby wouldn't know about Michael. Hmmm.... or did he say he heard gunfire? Oh heck, now I have to go watch again!

also, did Libby even KNOW that Michael was back? Correct me if I am wrong here, but I seem to recall a huge look of surprise on her face... and I think it was to both poor Ana on the couch, and Mike being back with a smoking gun... If she didn't know he was back, how would she know to ask about his health/status on her deathbed???

Well, hopefully Sayid will fig something out....

I cant remember who it was that asked it earlier in this thread, but it was mentioned that Jack "may have" smothered the Marshall when Sawyer mucked up and shot him in the wrong place.

I have noticed that there are two different versions of that episode out there, I remember watching on TV right back in the beginning of season 1 and you see Jack hold the marshalls nose and place his hand over his mouth just after Sawyer leaves, but the version I have since downloaded (Im guessing that it must have been the American version) didnt show this, it only showed Sawyer walking away and hearing muffled sounds of suffocating coming from Jacks Tent.

"If" I am right in thinking that, then I dont think it would have been totally OOC for Jack to give Libby a lethal dose, as he was resigned to the fact that he knew she was going to die very painfully if he didnt, and as in the first instance of when he carried out an act like this, it would not only have been obviously distressing to Libby herself, but to everyone around her who would have to watch her go through that suffering, so he was just acting on what he knew would be the best decision he could make.

Also I agree with baylady, I think that maybe next episode Jack might think a bit more into why Libby said Michaels name when she did and the implications that the very convenient story he came up with is more than just a bit "off"

also, did Libby even KNOW that Michael was back? Correct me if I am wrong here, but I seem to recall a huge look of surprise on her face... and I think it was to both poor Ana on the couch, and Mike being back with a smoking gun... If she didn't know he was back, how would she know to ask about his health/status on her deathbed???

Well, hopefully Sayid will fig something out....
Yes, I was also wondering this. Did everyone know Michael was back? What's the timing in all this and did everyone else in the camp know he was back? Libby may not even have known that, and if Michael was in bed when she showed up, she'd never have known he was there at all and wouldn't be questioning his condition.

Yeah, but Michael's story wasn't "perfect." Michael said he heard "shots" and came out to see what happened. If Libby had been shot already, how was she to know Michael had been shot? Jack needs to fiigure out that Libby didn't know Michael was shot (unless Jack was assuming Libby though Henry went and shot him lying in bed). Also, Ana was shot only once so Michael wouldn't have said "shots." So Libby had to have been shot before Michael and Libby wouldn't know about Michael. Hmmm.... or did he say he heard gunfire? Oh heck, now I have to go watch again!

Libby didn't need to know Michael was shot. Only that Michael was alread injured and the only one left after Fenry attacked her.
Michael's story was 'perfect' just enough to fool Jack and Eko (the men of Science and Faith), Kate, and Sawyer.
That said..don't worry, Sayid (the human lie detector) doesn't believe Michael's story.

Ive had morphine for pain before and it didnt do a thing for me, didnt ease the pain, didnt get a buzz. A gunshot to the stomach is one of the most painful ways to die.

Jack knew she was going to go and just made it as painless as possible for her.

Ive had morphine for pain before and it didnt do a thing for me, didnt ease the pain, didnt get a buzz. A gunshot to the stomach is one of the most painful ways to die.

Jack knew she was going to go and just made it as painless as possible for her.

Yeah.. I agree with you. Nothing to read into about giving a dying person in pain a strong pain killer to ease her passing.

[quote=Jakko DeDust;978718]Well, he's played Dr. Kavorkian before. I wondered the same thing.[/quo

When????
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when????

When the Marshall was dying miserably, and Sawyer tried to put him out of his misery but failed ... and Jack walked into the tent, and came back out, and the marshall was dead.

Season 1. :)

Well, hopefully Sayid will fig something out....

According to next week's preview, this seems to be the case.
I miss Sayid and Charlie... seems like I haven't seen them in awhile.

Has anyone mentioned that the whole backstory of eco was centered around a girl who died and came back to life? Maybe jack should start an autopsy and see if that brings libby back to life like the aussie girl (who libby also saw at the airport before her flight) Crazier things have happened repeatedly on this show.

For all of those who don't know, heroin might be a fantastic drug to get HIGH on, but to OVERDOSE is an horrific experience, maybe the writers of the show don't know this.

I think that jack was forcing a quick death on her, but to cause someone to overdose on heroin is a very, very cruel thing to do. Crueler than watching someone writhe in pain for days over a gut wound?.... well, no. So its the lesser of two evils.

As for jack forcing sawyer to let kate follow him...they are on an island, kate can follow him if she wants, he can either a) beat her to death or b) get over it (somewhere inbetween those options) but I don't think even sawyers character is capable of letting someone suffer when he can help in some small way.

Ive had morphine for pain before and it didnt do a thing for me, didnt ease the pain, didnt get a buzz. A gunshot to the stomach is one of the most painful ways to die.

Jack knew she was going to go and just made it as painless as possible for her.

Just goes to show medicines effect everyone differently. I've had my stomach ripped open for surgery, and let me tell you, morphine was my friend. I could definately tell when they took away my pump!

I agree Jack was trying to ease Libby's suffering and would not be surprised if he gave her an OD. I also agree with other posters that he did the same thing for the Marshall. Odd though, that he recognized a lost cause when he saw one with the Marshall and Libby, but not with Boone. Perhaps more emotionally invested in him than the others??? :confused:

Maybe because of Shannon. Harder to take someone's life with a family member there. Just a thought...

Michael's story may not have been "perfect," but it was definently good enough. Three people have been shot. Michael is their friend. They have no reason not to believe him yet. They don't have time to sit and think about his story, things are too emotional right now. Given time, I think they'll figure it out.

For all of those who don't know, heroin might be a fantastic drug to get HIGH on, but to OVERDOSE is an horrific experience, maybe the writers of the show don't know this.

Disruptor.. I've seen an overdose heroin patient in E.R. as a resident, and it isn't a painful experience. The patient presented in a comatose state, with depressed vitals. Which is what is expected. Massive amounts of opiates such as heroin results in severely depressed heart rate, breathing rate, BP... thus effectively shutting the person's nervous system down.

Has anyone mentioned that the whole backstory of eco was centered around a girl who died and came back to life? Maybe jack should start an autopsy and see if that brings libby back to life like the aussie girl (who libby also saw at the airport before her flight) Crazier things have happened repeatedly on this show.

Disruptor.. I've seen an overdose heroin patient in E.R. as a resident, and it isn't a painful experience. The patient presented in a comatose state, with depressed vitals. Which is what is expected. Massive amounts of opiates such as heroin results in severely depressed heart rate, breathing rate, BP... thus effectively shutting the person's nervous system down.

Anyone see a connection here?

I don't know much about medicine and docter stuff, but I assumed that the heroin would just calm her down because she was in shock. I think she'd be speechless otherwise.

I never really caught that Libby offically died. It was pretty unclear at the time but then after I thought about it , i guess she's dead.

Maybe she''ll come back to life ? Even for like 30 seconds? I really want them to find out Micheal did it. That would become pretty intense. Too bad it's not going to happen but in the previews

we have our man Sayid who doesn't believe Micheals story. GO SAYID !!

Maybe Libby just succumbed to her injuries. Mike said that Henry shot her about 20-30 minutes before Jack and co came in, so she was bleeding out for all that time. I don't think Jack intentionally or accidentally gave her too much heroin to cause an overdose.

Maybe Libby just succumbed to her injuries. Mike said that Henry shot her about 20-30 minutes before Jack and co came in, so she was bleeding out for all that time. I don't think Jack intentionally or accidentally gave her too much heroin to cause an overdose.

Agreed. There are actually only a few who think Jack euthanized her.

Question weather Jack euthanized Libby or not bothers me. I'm actually starting to think that even Jack isn't sure.

If I remember corretly it takes about 1,5mg/kg of heroin to kill a person definately. Libby weights less than 50 kilos (at least I think so). Once again if I remember correctly pure diacetylmorphine (heoin) is about 10 mg/ml. He seemed to shot her about 8 ml of heroin. I can't say how pure that heroin was. and less than that 1,5 mg/kg could kill a person. So i don't know and I think that even Jack doesn't know for sure.

She definately would have bleeded out soon if she didnät die for the heroin.

Odd though, that he recognized a lost cause when he saw one with the Marshall and Libby, but not with Boone. Perhaps more emotionally invested in him than the others??? :confused: oh he didn't recognize the Marshal as a lost cause. remember, he tried to do a lot to keep him alive. at the end he knew that the Marshal may die, but I think Jack had still hope that they were getting rescued. then Sawyer shot the Marshal and failed, and only then Jack was "able" to put the Marshal out of his misery.

with Boone it was different I guess because Jack may really have helped him if he had known from the beginning what exactly happened. perhaps he couldn't help lhim, but at least Jack thought he could help him.

I think with Libby Jack knew from the beginning that she wouldn't survive this. no way he could operate on her, remove the two bullets and give her enough blood (and anything else she might have needed) under these circumstances (of which Jack of course is more aware now than at the beginning with the Marshal).

I think Jack wanted to inject Libby with heroin as she was clearly dying and suffering with it - she was in shock, she had lost a lot of blood. As a doctor, Jack would have been trying to ease her pain, definately. I don't think there are very many doctors at all who subscribe to the 'put them out of their misery' school of medicine. What about Boone - Jack was ready to go to extreme lengths on the slim chance Boone might survive.

The heroin would have numbed some of the physical pain and allowed her to slip away, possibly even regain consciousness - perhaps Jack thought she'd struggle on for longer. It's almost as if the shock of Jack saying Michael was ok, and Libby realising what a pickle they were all in, tipped her over the edge.

oh he didn't recognize the Marshal as a lost cause. remember, he tried to do a lot to keep him alive. at the end he knew that the Marshal may die, but I think Jack had still hope that they were getting rescued. then Sawyer shot the Marshal and failed, and only then Jack was "able" to put the Marshal out of his misery.

I agree- I meant the Marshall was a lost cause once Sawyer shot him... I was not very clear.