I was thinking about the whole incident and at first it made no sense to me that they were still going to push the button or at least Eko is still going to.

Well I thought about it some more and it came to me why this is part of a test.

What if them finding the Pearl hatch is part of the test. The test to see if even they knew the supposed truth if they are the faithful that the island (or whoever is providing these dreams) is searching for.

The true test of faith is when someone is presented with seemingly factual evidence that disproves their faith but they remain faithful. Faith is something intangible and goes beyond what you can see with your own eyes and is often contradicted by what seems to be reality. It would be like those that are presented with the scientific evidence of the similarities between men and primates but they still deny evolution and believe in creation.

So I think it is part of the test. Them finding of the Pearl is part of it and maybe it's a test of someone or something beyond Dharma and not part of the Dharma test. I do think there is something bigger than them at work here.

Blind Faith may be a better term.

So I think it is part of the test. Them finding of the Pearl is part of it and maybe it's a test of someone or something beyond Dharma and not part of the Dharma test. I do think there is something bigger than them at work here.

I rarely post....gotta' say that I agree with what you're saying here. IMO the island has been a host for "something" that's been around for a long time. One of the creators of the show (not sure of which one) said that they wanted the island, itself, to be a character too. Yes, I think that this goes way beyond Dharma.

Kind of like temptation, right? Testing their faith.

Lets see if they actually do it, or if Locke throws that computer against a wall...

I just still don't get why Eko turned into First Season Locke.

I would have been like Locke if that had happened to me. I would have been angry that I had been tricked. I guess I am just not the spiritual type. Ecko's take on the whole thing just seemed kind of odd to me.

Tammy

Eko's take on the button is very much like religion. No matter what the facts are, no matter what common sense tells you, blindly follow a belief no matter what.

I think it's possible that Dharma is recruiting people for some type of army/cult or something of that nature. They are trying to find people that are easy to brainwash. The easiest people to brainwash are those that will have blind faith no matter what knowledge they gain that disproves their beliefs. (Pushing a button even though the whole concept does not make sense AND after you have watched a video telling you the whole thing is just a psychological experiment.)

Once they find someone that DOES do this (keep pushing the button, or whatever that station's task is), they send someone to go get this person. This is why Henry was sent to get Locke. Now that Locke has lost his faith in the button, maybe they will come after Eko.

This would also make sense as to why they want children. Children can almost always be brainwashed to believe a certain set of beliefs.

I just still don't get why Eko turned into First Season Locke.

I think first season for Locke to regain the use of his legs made him a man of faith and for Ecko like he said to watch his brother die and take his brothers place as a priest only to have that job lead him to a remote island where his brother's dead body ended up caused Ecko to thinka greater power must have planned this. Especially after the girl who came back told him what she did and don't forget the dream. I think all that would have an impact on anyone.

I just think that there is something bigger testing them. Something beyond Dharma and all others have failed....

I think first season for Locke to regain the use of his legs made him a man of faith and for Ecko like he said to watch his brother die and take his brothers place as a priest only to have that job lead him to a remote island where his brother's dead body ended up caused Ecko to thinka greater power must have planned this. Especially after the girl who came back told him what she did and don't forget the dream. I think all that would have an impact on anyone.

I agree with what you said about Eko believing in a "greater power." I think many people who are deeply religious claim that they have seen "God's plan" through some experience that somehow made it clear to them, and this changed their lives. This fits Eko's explanation to Locke about coming to the island.
It seems Eko was a priest (well, after trying to bully his brother into making him one for nefarious purposes, if I remember correctly) solely to take his brother's place, to carry on for him, but without truly having faith (as he said he didn't believe the drowning girl's mother). Now that he's had this experience on the island with his brother, he believes there is something bigger. When he found his brother's body, Eko (I think) takes his crucifix necklace and places it around his neck, symbolically taking on faith. Since then, he's been carving scripture in his stick and building a church. Watching the Pearl video doesn't shake him, despite the fact that it directly conflicts with his beliefs about why they are there. He still sees a larger "plan."

The true test of faith is when someone is presented with seemingly factual evidence that disproves their faith but they remain faithful. Faith is something intangible and goes beyond what you can see with your own eyes and is often contradicted by what seems to be reality. It would be like those that are presented with the scientific evidence of the similarities between men and primates but they still deny evolution and believe in creation.

What you are describing is now infamously known as:
Truthiness or the quality by which a person purports to know something emotionally or instinctively, without regard to evidence or to what the person might conclude from itnellectual examination. As defined by Stephen Colbert

What if the visions of Ecko's brother were sent to Locke and Ecko by the Island?
What if the Island is in self-preservation mode, and knew that Locke was giving up. So it sent images of Ecko's brother, telling him how important it is to push the button??

True faith is what Ecko had - when he was building a church. I couldn't help but feel that Ecko turned his back on God by putting the church-building on the back burner to go and push a button. He looked like a wide-eyed zealot when he was describing the importance the button.

Or I could be wrong and the button-pushing will save the world...

I posted this in a different thread, but I thought I would move it over here as it seems a better fit.

I must say that I am puzzled by the conflicting nature of the dreams that Locke and Eko are having. It's not just that Locke's dream of Yemi was far more menacing than Eko's either. It's the fact that Eko's dreams are conflicting with each other. He says he was told to build a church. He thinks he was told in a dream. Yet, he has another dream instructing him to drop the church building and help Locke find the question mark, and he unquestioningly follows it. I suppose since it was apparently prophetic (dead Ana), that kind of seals the deal for him. Still, I was always certain that Locke was a man of faith. I just questioned what it was in which he was placing his faith. I am beginning to feel the same about Eko. It's as if he is clueless which voice it is he should follow. Will he simply follow the perceived diety that can provide the flashiest dream? Is that really faith? It just seems like Eko has that childlike belief that Locke used to have until his innocence was shattered by Boone's death and its aftermath. Has Locke become more discerning? Is Eko supposed to bring him back into the fold? Is that what his dream meant about building a church? He wasn't supposed to be building a physical church? He was supposed to be building a congregation?

So I think it is part of the test. Them finding of the Pearl is part of it and maybe it's a test of someone or something beyond Dharma and not part of the Dharma test. I do think there is something bigger than them at work here.

Yes, exactly. That's what I believe as well. I feel that too many fans have totally abandoned the spiritual aspect of the island and are just trying to assign the blame or responsibility for everything to the Others. I think we'll find out that the Others and Dharma are doing a lot less than we think.

Some people think Yemi led Locke to the Pearl to shatter Locke's faith entirely. I don't believe that. I think the Pearl will push Locke as close to the edge as he can get without falling over only to discover that he has the strength to pull himself back. I believe the dreams came from the island. I don't believe the island would give Locke more tests than he could endure. This is the most difficult, but also the last test.

John is angry. He wants to give up. He wants to feel bad for himself and talk about his "pathetic, little life" but I don't think it's over for him just yet. Maybe it won't happen immediately. Maybe it will take another reason. But he'll come back around.

Now that he's had this experience on the island with his brother, he believes there is something bigger.
I think that a lot of people in the show have been shown evidence that there is something bigger, some larger force, at work on the island. Only a few are ready to accept it, however. Locke and Eko both fall into the "ready to accept" it camp.

Maybe Eko took the meaning of a church too literal. Maybe the church has something to do with the unification of the people.

Besides a church is just a building what would be so important about that? He really needs to unify the people.

Oh and I think the "dream" he had that told him to build the church was actually when he met the smoke monster.

Did we ever saw the dream Ecko had to build a church? I think that dream came from God, and these new dreams involvoing Ecko's brother are planted by Dharma.

I think the autopsy girl is an Other, whose mission is to plant a seed to Ecko that his brother is sending him messages. Then he wouldn't question the dreams from his brother instructing him to press the button. Ecko and Locke are being duped by the Island, under the blanket of "faith".

What will the consequences be for Ecko if he turned his back on God (church-building) to follow Dharma (button-pushing)?

I don't know, Eko said the word "dream" oddly to Ana Lucia like it wasn't really a dream so that's why it made me think of the run in with the smoke monster.

I think the autopsy girl is an Other, whose mission is to plant a seed to Ecko that his brother is sending him messages. Then he wouldn't question the dreams from his brother instructing him to press the button. Ecko and Locke are being duped by the Island, under the blanket of "faith".


lol, I love how alot of people in the fuselage love to accuse characters of being an other. Even though they could be right, there has been very little to reason to suspect them of such.

lol, I love how alot of people in the fuselage love to accuse characters of being an other. Even though they could be right, there has been very little to reason to suspect them of such..

Hi again Fourth, maybe you're an other too?? lol. Seriously, my reasons for suspecting this are in another thread, but to sum it up: I found it pretty strange that her father the psychic chased Ecko away from an investigation into a miracle. He gave up way too easily the fact that he's a shill; a fake. And there's something other-worldly about the girl, in a children-of-the-damned kind of way. So I think she screamed during the autopsy because she didn't die. And she didn't die, perhaps, because she couldn't. Ya know, being an other and all... ;)

I'm in agreeance with the OP, and posted a very similar thought right after the episode, as it really seemed clear to me (at least at that moment!) that when we saw the camera trained on the contents of the Pearl, it meant that the Pearl is being watched and logged as well and that the experiment was not contained to the Swan. Sounds like a good double blind experiment to me.

Ultimately, I think/hope that the writers will give enough evidence to suggest both faith-based and secular 'answers' to the major plotlines of Lost, and allow each viewer to make up their own mind as to what they accept and to what degree.

But I can't help thinking that the emphasis on experimentation on the island, along with Lost's constant undermining of expectations and frame-in-frame metaphysics, might mean that those who believe they are watching others are in fact being watched. And that that chain might go all the way to the Top, as it were.

As a former Lit major, I can't help but wonder at times if the 'incident' refers not to something recent, but to the 'original' incident. Could the island be a test by a higher power/God to see if humanity is worthy of being given a second chance? Could the 108 minutes/108 sins be emblematic and the pushing of the button represent an act of pure faith that atones for the world around them? If they fail, will they trigger apocalypse---or perhaps the nuclear vengeance of a former arms dealer embittered with the results of altruistic experiment gone wrong?

After all, if one wanted a true controlled test of humanity, what better place than an island? Then, to have a fair test, you remove all the really good people, and you let the bad people destroy themselves by their own cupidity. You're left with people who are neither good nor bad, but have both qualities in equal portions (like the yin yang). Then you give them conflicting information about what to believe in. Can they maintain their humanity? Will they behave morally when they are left alone? What kind of a society will they create---dictatorial or collaborative? What will they continue to believe in?

I think there are many layers of manipulation in Lost, and many groups that believe they are in charge of themselves but are really being manipulated---but that in the end, it's not for nothing. That there really is something very grave at stake.

I really liked what you wrote, NathanielStarr. I couldn't agree more. And remember what Eko tells Locke;"the reason we do it [pushing the button] is not because we are told to, but it is because we believe we are meant to do it".

.
Seriously, my reasons for suspecting this are in another thread, but to sum it up: I found it pretty strange that her father the psychic chased Ecko away from an investigation into a miracle. He gave up way too easily the fact that he's a shill; a fake.

Perhaps, the psychic couldn't lie to a priest. Even con men can have faith.

And there's something other-worldly about the girl, in a children-of-the-damned kind of way. So I think she screamed during the autopsy because she didn't die. And she didn't die, perhaps, because she couldn't. Ya know, being an other and all... ;)

Yeah.. she was freaky looking. Maybe because she really did die, was in purgatory, then came back. But either way, she had been through alot.

And about others not dying? Tell that to Ethan or Goodwin, or the others that Eko and AL killed. I bet they'd beg to differ... wait.. they can't because they're dead. lol

And about others not dying? Tell that to Ethan or Goodwin, or the others that Eko and AL killed. I bet they'd beg to differ... wait.. they can't because they're dead. lol[/quote]

I think it was already pointed out by TBTB that if you die on the island, you die. She didn't die on the island.

The two thoughts I hear discussed here make alot of sense. If you look as Moses and Aaron, they had to "camp and wait for further instructions". Eko got to look into "the promised land" ala moses when he got to the top of the cliff but he did not mention this to Locke when he climbed down.The old testament represents a different kind of faith- one to be worked out through "Sacrifice", one that had to be made to satisfy God or they would die. Now, we are leading toward a "grace" period, closer to now times, a time where you dont sacrifice or repent every 108 minutes for every sin. But to do that "salvation" must occur first. Not sure where all that leaves us, but dont be surprised if next yr an episode is titled "salvation" or "grace". I think the idea of a cult/army is interesting, but they (Hanso) claim to be "building a better tomorrow"- with better people?? This whole idea that no religious overtone is in effect now is not possible, more than ever it's likely to be where we r headed. BTW, when prophets(using another bible term here) were told to do something, often they started out doing what they thought was God's work, only to be given a seperate set of instructions to follow. If they followed them they were trustd with more info on the why they are doing it. Tests are part of purification process. Just random thought on where we might be going.

I really liked what you wrote, NathanielStarr. I couldn't agree more. And remember what Eko tells Locke;"the reason we do it [pushing the button] is not because we are told to, but it is because we believe we are meant to do it".

Which, of course, is the best way to manipulate someone into doing anything. Conning and being conned seems to be a huge theme of this show :cool:

At this point in the show, I cannot tell what the heck is going on, and I love it. I don't know whether pushing the button is necessary or not, and it is amazing to me that the writers have made it so that the viewer absolutely cannot determine whether something bad will or will not happen if it isn't pushed. Personally, I have a feeling that Dharma is no more, and someone has simply latched on to their resources... to what end, I don't know. Their original ideal has been perverted in some dark way, and what you are left with are these "Others".

Claire's psychic is a definite head-scratcher. His behavior with Eko and Claire are completely opposite, and I can't wait for the reveal that shows what happened to him.

Sorry if most of this post is off topic, but it just stirred me up in a good way!

3 days till my fix.

Remember that Eko also heard in his dream that John had lost his way and that Eko was to lead him back to find it again. So Eko's pushing the button and taking on that quality of Locke in Season 1 is a good thing and, hopefully, will model that faith until John can find his way again and start believing that what he does has meaning and purpose.

Remember that Eko also heard in his dream that John had lost his way and that Eko was to lead him back to find it again. So Eko's pushing the button and taking on that quality of Locke in Season 1 is a good thing and, hopefully, will model that faith until John can find his way again and start believing that what he does has meaning and purpose.

I agree. I think that the Pearl, and the ?, both represent the question of faith. There's a parable in the Bible called "The Pearl of Great Price." In a nutshell, a merchant is seeking pearls, and he finds a pearl "of great price," something he believes is very valuable. Against conventional good judgement, he sells all that he owns to buy it.

The parable is essentially about faith, about recognizing value, about something worth looking for and worth sacrificing everything in order to attain. The pearl in the parable represents the kingdom of Heaven, its ultimate value, and God's providence to lead us to the truth and to eternal life. It's an explanation of faith, of a belief that there's something of value worth looking for.

Locke has lost his faith, or is on the verge of doing so. Eko believes in the pearl - he has faith in his faith. In a way, Locke and Eko found two different Pearls. Locke found one that erodedc his faith even more, while Eko found something that only confirmed his - even though he may not understand why he has to push the button, he found what he was looking for, an answer to his ?. It only increases his faith, and his belief that he is being led to something of value, of "great price."

I just still don't get why Eko turned into First Season Locke.

Locke and Eko represent two different aspects of spirituality. Locke has faith in destiny. Eko has faith in God. One can argue that Eko's faith is deeper or stronger than Locke's because Eko is content believe no matter what... even in the face of an apparrent truth (the Pearl video) which clearly disproves his faith. Locke's faith is more easily shaken by reality. This is why Eko is the right person to help Locke find his way back. In "?", doesn't Eko actually "echo" Locke's words back to him? "We are being tested."

In "?", I think the writers are also asking the audience whether or not they, too, can take a leap of faith. Either the button means nothing, or it means everything. But you have to CHOOSE which to believe -- because there is an equal amount evidence at this point for BOTH to be true.

I think it was already pointed out by TBTB that if you die on the island, you die. She didn't die on the island.

Ohhhh! Very clever ame... I never thought of the ambiguity before of their comment.

Which, of course, is the best way to manipulate someone into doing anything. Conning and being conned seems to be a huge theme of this show :cool:

At this point in the show, I cannot tell what the heck is going on, and I love it. I don't know whether pushing the button is necessary or not, and it is amazing to me that the writers have made it so that the viewer absolutely cannot determine whether something bad will or will not happen if it isn't pushed. Personally, I have a feeling that Dharma is no more, and someone has simply latched on to their resources... to what end, I don't know. Their original ideal has been perverted in some dark way, and what you are left with are these "Others".

Claire's psychic is a definite head-scratcher. His behavior with Eko and Claire are completely opposite, and I can't wait for the reveal that shows what happened to him.

Sorry if most of this post is off topic, but it just stirred me up in a good way!

3 days till my fix.

That's where my thinking is going. The only thing I cannot tell is if this force is good or bad and what the purpose is.

Personally I hope it's not supernatural for my own personal preference but I also hope its a benevolent "force" that is compelling them to unravel the secrets.

Eko's take on the button is very much like religion. No matter what the facts are, no matter what common sense tells you, blindly follow a belief no matter what.

I think it's possible that Dharma is recruiting people for some type of army/cult or something of that nature. They are trying to find people that are easy to brainwash. The easiest people to brainwash are those that will have blind faith no matter what knowledge they gain that disproves their beliefs.

So religious people are all blind and devoid of common sense?
100%
Maybe Eko took the meaning of a church too literal. Maybe the church has something to do with the unification of the people.

Besides a church is just a building what would be so important about that? He really needs to unify the people.

The Bible says the church is not a building but a gathering of believers. Perhaps Eko misunderstood his assignment.

I think it was already pointed out by TBTB that if you die on the island, you die. She didn't die on the island.

You could apply that to Christian Sheppherd as well.

You could apply that to Christian Sheppherd as well.

You're absolutely right Nathaniel....

One more day to Wednesday!

[quote=NathanielStarr;989399]


this also is whwere my thinking i going tooooo.

kids are easyt o control this way. gale refers to their "leader" as a great man. i think Goodwin makes reference to the righteousness of their work. Michael, would do anything for the potential to get walt back, no matter how heinous. one point i ask myself if its face value or a lie. when gale tells locke that his purpose was to come there for him.

Can someone explain this to me because I'm not sure I understand it correctly. If Eko was sent to help John find his way back to the right path, then why did Yemi/Ana send him to the Question Mark and totally destroy what little faith Locke had left?

Can someone explain this to me because I'm not sure I understand it correctly. If Eko was sent to help John find his way back to the right path, then why did Yemi/Ana send him to the Question Mark and totally destroy what little faith Locke had left?

CU, Good question!

Originally Posted by CUinAnotherLife
Can someone explain this to me because I'm not sure I understand it correctly. If Eko was sent to help John find his way back to the right path, then why did Yemi/Ana send him to the Question Mark and totally destroy what little faith Locke had left?

CU, Good question!

Yes, good question! I think I might be the only person that felt the Yemi dreams were somewhat sinister....like someone/something is up to no good.

You're not alone, seaquelost. Some people have gone so far as to theorize that the Others are somehow capable of controlling people's dreams and that's why Eko had the dream he had.

On the one hand, it makes sense. The dream leads Eko to believe that his destiny is to push the button, save the world, etc. So that's a good thing. But I just don't see how Eko helped John at all. That's what he was supposed to do, right? Or was he just there to help Locke find the question mark, no matter what the contents of that hatch did to Locke's faith? It seems like things have never been more grim for Locke on the island.

If someone could transcribe what Ana and Yemi say to Eko in the dream, that would be very helpful.

CU.. here's the transcript..
http://www.lost-tv.com/transcripts/Question_Mark_Lost.htm

Yes, exactly. That's what I believe as well. I feel that too many fans have totally abandoned the spiritual aspect of the island and are just trying to assign the blame or responsibility for everything to the Others. I think we'll find out that the Others and Dharma are doing a lot less than we think.

Some people think Yemi led Locke to the Pearl to shatter Locke's faith entirely. I don't believe that. I think the Pearl will push Locke as close to the edge as he can get without falling over only to discover that he has the strength to pull himself back. I believe the dreams came from the island. I don't believe the island would give Locke more tests than he could endure. This is the most difficult, but also the last test.

John is angry. He wants to give up. He wants to feel bad for himself and talk about his "pathetic, little life" but I don't think it's over for him just yet. Maybe it won't happen immediately. Maybe it will take another reason. But he'll come back around.


I think that a lot of people in the show have been shown evidence that there is something bigger, some larger force, at work on the island. Only a few are ready to accept it, however. Locke and Eko both fall into the "ready to accept" it camp.


I too think the "others" are caught up in a much larger force as are the "Losties" and that the island is sending the dreams to Locke and Eko as they are more open (Jack and Kates visions for example seemed to bring some closure to them but no dreams...Charlies dream may be more prophetic (i.e. for later.....not for then and there a he interpreted it.....however Aaron was baptised)

However the dream sequences of John and Eko are now "in sinc". Yemi in the wheelchair was in Lockes dream and was perhaps a reminder to Locke that the island (or larger force) has given him the use of his legs back and also remember Eko was a representation of Locke in Lockes dream also and that Eko (aka Locke) fell when he saw Yemi in the wheelchair......Locke needs to share with Eko that the island gave him back the use of his legs........I have a feeling its the island that wants them to push the button and not the others - don't know why of course !!!! (I just know that Fenry was very determined that Locke not believe the button does anything....and he was majorly "playing" with Locke faith every episode).

Can someone explain this to me because I'm not sure I understand it correctly. If Eko was sent to help John find his way back to the right path, then why did Yemi/Ana send him to the Question Mark and totally destroy what little faith Locke had left?

A most excellent question! I agree with you, however, that Locke's faith is not lost. I wish I had more to say, but you've already said it perfectly ;)

Can someone explain this to me because I'm not sure I understand it correctly. If Eko was sent to help John find his way back to the right path, then why did Yemi/Ana send him to the Question Mark and totally destroy what little faith Locke had left?

Perhaps the 'island' needed Locke to 'reset or test' his faith? Yemi did tell Eko in his dream, "The work being done in this place is important, Eko. And it is in danger. You must help John. He has lost his way. You must make him take you to the question mark."

But why test his faith if you want him to keep pushing the button?

But why test his faith if you want him to keep pushing the button?

Because what Fenry told Locke , resulted in Locke beginning to question his destiny...