I'm such a twit...I didn't even realize we had a new home...lol ;)

*looks around*

Yup...still a prime skating spot

*chugs a HARDCORE SKATER*

HA! Darbi I love that I idea about Desmond and Sawyer getting drunk and swapping stories. I can just picture the two of them durnk of their arses....he he he....and YES I agree...MORE SAYID!

BAH! I still have no sound on my computer and I can't watch any of the lovely videos without it. Well I can WATCH them...but without the song choice...it isn't nearly as interesting..lol

If they threw Sayid in the mix...that would be television gold. Can you imagine a drunk Sayid? For some reason I can see him getting toasted, he's still all depressed about Shannon then suddenly rambling off some Shakespeare in his native tongue. Kind of like Luka from ER did when he stareted reciting 'Hamlet' in his Croatian tongue a few years ago.

Lord that was hot.

Sawyer and Desmond would just stare at him until he finished before one of them said something smart and funny, breaking the spell by lightening the moment. :D

Alright sorta comin in from left feild here y'all;) ...
Okay so I am watching THP and I feel like goin on a lil rant:p I love the part right after they fear the gun shots and jack looked at Sawyer and said ”You out here for Michael or just pay back for getting shot?” and sawyer responded with ”Why you out here doc? You got your reason and I got mine.”
Ok so this may have been a typical sawyer response but I don’t think the answer to Jack’s question is a simple either or type thing. Sawyer is such a deep character that knowing him he would have several answers to why he was there and some of them he would not be willing to admit too. As for coming out in the jungle to help save Michael I seriously doubt at this stage in the show he would admit to that but i am sure that he truely does care for michael enough to be concerned for him. On the other hand I think a large part of him did want revenge so he most likely did come out for that as well. So I believe Sawyer was not out there for one reason but both. He would probably say that he was there for revenge cause he knew people might look at him with disgust for not being solely concerned for another human being’s safety and knowing people are “hating’ him is what he wants. So imo next to nothing with sawyer is a simple “either or” question there are so many layers that you have to dig deep. The truth may be bared so deep that you can’t see... it but it doesn’t mean its not there.
P.S. Although this is a jack centric epi I love the fact that we get a few great skate scenes and statements :heart: and Sawyer is soo in his natural element here… he’s got his gun in hand and he is ready ta go*sigh*

For instance, I recall reading an interview with the actress who plays Sun who said that she was asked to play one of the last scenes of the season three ways: 1) as if she knew Jin was the father 2) as if she knew he wasn't the father and 3) if she didn't have a clue. She still doesn't know who the father is and they used the take where she was acting the most confused.

So I've been wondering if the writers could be placing things in the scripts so that the actors present things a certain way which may or may not have anything to do with the ultimate direction. As I said, just mulling.

This makes a lot of sense because OQuinn has said that he doesnt really know where the show is going. i think they make sure that even the actors dont know too much so they wont leak anything to the press advertantly or inadvertantly.
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ETA: Losttvfan if you watch that scene in HDTV on a nice big monitor with the headphones on, you can hear them both moan, and Kate gives him some tongue too!!! Definitely developed into a very hot mutual kiss. Don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise.

The kiss between Jack and Kate??? It looked really akward and disgusting to me... i guess i really need to go back and see it again now.
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Hi all you comrades in warped imagery!!

Listen --- I read a ways back a comment to the newbies about voting in the poll. I clicked there this morning and it says I can't vote! Do they have something against warped Sawyer fans participating???

Yeah, i couldn't vote, either. i just thought that the poll must be closed. :confused:

Gods no! :eek2: :eek2: :rolleyes:

I was talking about the Skate kiss in CM. :kiss:

I'mHA! Darbi I love that I idea about Desmond and Sawyer getting drunk and swapping stories. I can just picture the two of them durnk of their arses....he he he....and YES I agree...MORE SAYID!

OMG, Sawyer, Desmond, and Sayid drunk??? Now thats something Id like to see, lol. I bet they'd be like the 3 Amigos, lol. That would be freaking awesome. Hopefully the writers are reading this and taking notes. :D

Okay so I am watching THP and I feel like goin on a lil rant I love the part right after they fear the gun shots and jack looked at Sawyer and said ”You out here for Michael or just pay back for getting shot?” and sawyer responded with ”Why you out here doc? You got your reason and I got mine.”

Southern I love THP too. Infact its one of my top 3 favorite epis for s2. ;)I remember when Jack said that. And your absolutely right. Sawyer gave one of his sarcastic responses again. Some people may say he did go with Jack for revenge. And I think a small part of him did. But a. Jack asked him to go with them. b. Sawyer got shot trying to save Walt. I think this should give us enough motive on Sawyers part to understand that he wasnt just doing it for himself. He cares about Mike and Walt, but he pushes people away time and time again. Only thing is, he cant help but want to do the right thing in the end. Which is by definition, what a good person is. I dont know if Jack can see that about Sawyer though. They approach things so differently.

Actually, Jack didn't ask Sawyer to come along. In fact, he reminded him that he was still on antibiotics, and Sawyer told him then it's a good thing I'm traveling with my doctor. ;)

Why do I remember that so clearly and can barely recall what I had for breakfast this morning. :crazy:

Actually, Jack didn't ask Sawyer to come along. In fact, he reminded him that he was still on antibiotics, and Sawyer told him then it's a good thing I'm traveling with my doctor. ;)

Why do I remember that so clearly and can barely recall what I had for breakfast this morning. :crazy:

Whoops okay, lol. Thanks for catching that Darbi. I need to rewatch that again. Im bad with details. And I loved that line too. LOL, strange I didnt recall it. Anyway, I still think Sawyer didnt just go along for revenge. :)

Why do I remember that so clearly and can barely recall what I had for breakfast this morning.
Maybe cuz what you had for breakfast this morning wouldn't be a good thing to remember? :laughing:

ETA: Losttvfan if you watch that scene in HDTV on a nice big monitor with the headphones on, you can hear them both moan, and Kate gives him some tongue too!!! Definitely developed into a very hot mutual kiss. Don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise.

In the interest of full disclosure, I must admit that, were a gun to my head, I would come down on the Jack/Kate side. That being said...

Whoosh. Yes. It may be nearly 100F where I am, but the chemistry in that scene is far hotter. I've always thought that Sawyer and Kate had amazing chemistry, mostly because of the way they play to each other's strengths and weaknesses. While I (as a mild Jater) might not see him as the best choice for her in terms of a long-term relationship at this point in time, I would never deny that they bring out the best and worst in each other. When Kate's concerned or upset, Sawyer is the first to comfort or console her. If she's acting out, he's the first to call her on her bull****, and has absolutely no qualms in confronting her about her past, her lies, and the secrets she'd prefer to keep to herself. Everyone needs someone like that in their life, a friend who's not afraid to be honest to a fault, who's not afraid to lay it all out on the table, and if it causes a break in the friendship (as in the aftermath of BTR by the fire), then so be it.

Sawyer's always played that role to Kate where Jack has shied away. He doesn't want to know what she did, and Sawyer up and told Kate that he knew who she was. Sawyer makes no bones about his jealousy of Jack and teases Kate at every opportunity about her doctor boyfriend, but he still cares enough to comfort her in the aftermath of Libby's death. It takes a much stronger person than many people I know to put pride aside to that degree, and it shows the strength of their connection.

I won't argue my Jate POV here, since this isn't the forum. But let me say, as one Lost-fan to others, that I am a pro-Skate Jater, and love the fact that the triangle is in full swing.

Really, I could live with either pairing. Both would work--on the Island. But I can't shake the fact that if they were rescued tomorrow, only ONE of these pairings would work out in the Real World. And Jack isn't part of that pair!

Actually, Jack didn't ask Sawyer to come along. In fact, he reminded him that he was still on antibiotics, and Sawyer told him then it's a good thing I'm traveling with my doctor. ;)

Why do I remember that so clearly and can barely recall what I had for breakfast this morning. :crazy:

:blshing1: Because you are ONE OF US. :wub: Great posts today Darbi

Sawyer's always played that role to Kate where Jack has shied away. He doesn't want to know what she did, and Sawyer up and told Kate that he knew who she was. Sawyer makes no bones about his jealousy of Jack and teases Kate at every opportunity about her doctor boyfriend, but he still cares enough to comfort her in the aftermath of Libby's death. It takes a much stronger person than many people I know to put pride aside to that degree, and it shows the strength of their connection.

I won't argue my Jate POV here, since this isn't the forum. But let me say, as one Lost-fan to others, that I am a pro-Skate Jater, and love the fact that the triangle is in full swing.


Fair play to you for seeing all this and admitting to it if you prefer Jate! Put simply, I think the reason he acts in this way - comforting Kate etc - is because he genuinely does love her. Question: Does everyone agree that Sawyer is jealous of Jack? If so, then why?
Maybe it is a silly question to ask but I'd like to see someone else's opinion on it. I think Sawyer is somewhat jealous of Jack in that he thinks Jack is the object of Kate's affection - to a certain degree anyway. But I don't think he'd want to be Jack either all the same!

I have enjoyed the triangle element in the show too everblue, but I hope it doesn't keep 'in full swing' forever - would make the suspense of who Kate ends up with too long & drawn out.

With regard to the Skate/Jate poll to those who are enquiring about it, I have just posted a question over on that related thread, so will let you know if I find out the reason for not being able to vote :confused:

A couple of random thoughts:

For the past couple of weeks, the fate of Sawyer's letter has been bothering me, so this morning I popped in my S1 DVD disk, and forwarded through to I got to the raft scene of Sawyer reading the messages from the bottle. There's no indication that he didn't have the letter in his possession, but he wasn't reading it at the time Walt confronted him about invading the other castaways privacy.

He does, however, tell Walt that the only letter he's ever written was to the man he was going to kill. If the kid wasn't already screwed up enough...recent death of his mother, crash landing on an island with a father he doesn't know, freaky darn near diabolical brain powers...I'm not sure if that little chat helped matters at all. That and his impending kidnapping. But I digress.

As a side note: It was another reminder of how isolated and sad Sawyer's life really has been. Revenge being all he feels he has to live for. Sad.

So, for the sake of much needed continuincy, what if Sawyer had left the letter in Kate's possession before he left? Given the way Exodus part I ended with Sawyer and Kate searching the beach with one another...regretting how things were left. Kate discovering Sawyer's letter would have been a very powerful scene, and it would have tied in very well with her behavior as she tore through the messages in the bottle that washed ashore.

It also could have added a greater impact to the scene at the end of 'TLC' when Kate confronted Sawyer about taking the guns. Seeing her cram that letter back in his hands much like Sawyer did to her in 'CM'...anger, disappointment, fear stenciled across her face as she said something accusatory like, "I guess you'll want this back than?" or "Why did you leave this with me?" The look on Sawyer's face would have been priceless (because honestly, what could he have said at the moment to make things any better?) as she walked off.

Continuincy that can still be built upon. He's come close to burning that letter once. I would hate to think that something that's been such a intregal part of his life, the pain, bitterness, fear and anger he lives with has simply dissolved in the ocean with no further mention of it again. Seems rather anti-climatic.

Something else I noted about that episode. Charlie is a dweeb...and has shown signs of being a rat, traitorous b*stard even then. I had forgotten that he had punched Sayid blaming him for Danielle taking Aaron. The world? :confused: And after Sayid tried to help him come to terms with shooting Ethan. Tsk! Punk.

I also realized how very much I miss Shannon. I loved the conversation she and Sun had about if they were being punished for the lies they'd told, secrets they kept before the plane crashed and how it was fate that was punishing them. A very depressed and distraugt Claire speaks up and says they weren't being punished because there was no thing such as fate. Great scene.
.
darbi posts like this are why i love you so much :shesaid:



In the interest of full disclosure, I must admit that, were a gun to my head, I would come down on the Jack/Kate side. That being said...

Whoosh. Yes. It may be nearly 100F where I am, but the chemistry in that scene is far hotter. I've always thought that Sawyer and Kate had amazing chemistry, mostly because of the way they play to each other's strengths and weaknesses. While I (as a mild Jater) might not see him as the best choice for her in terms of a long-term relationship at this point in time, I would never deny that they bring out the best and worst in each other. When Kate's concerned or upset, Sawyer is the first to comfort or console her. If she's acting out, he's the first to call her on her bull****, and has absolutely no qualms in confronting her about her past, her lies, and the secrets she'd prefer to keep to herself. Everyone needs someone like that in their life, a friend who's not afraid to be honest to a fault, who's not afraid to lay it all out on the table, and if it causes a break in the friendship (as in the aftermath of BTR by the fire), then so be it.

Sawyer's always played that role to Kate where Jack has shied away. He doesn't want to know what she did, and Sawyer up and told Kate that he knew who she was. Sawyer makes no bones about his jealousy of Jack and teases Kate at every opportunity about her doctor boyfriend, but he still cares enough to comfort her in the aftermath of Libby's death. It takes a much stronger person than many people I know to put pride aside to that degree, and it shows the strength of their connection.

I won't argue my Jate POV here, since this isn't the forum. But let me say, as one Lost-fan to others, that I am a pro-Skate Jater, and love the fact that the triangle is in full swing.


that was so well said that i'm speechless i really am... thanks for coming by :biggrin:

Why do I remember that so clearly and can barely recall what I had for breakfast this morning. :crazy:
well that's cause that's far more important than eating.. And Sawyer has a way of wiping even the most mundane thoughts from your mind...

an explanation of why Jacks hair won't grow

:happy_bounce: been thinkin so much about that i put it in my fic :roflmao:

Does everyone agree that Sawyer is jealous of Jack? If so, then why?

good question i think he resenta Jack for having everything he didn't i.e the family and the stability, even though Jacks life was far from perfect, it was probably better than Sawyers. And for being the kind of man he thinks he could never be, I.e. a good person who does good things. . I think he's jealous of that and of the fact that he 'seems' to have Kate, the woman he loves.

wow think i'm caught up now, great posts today :biggrin:

The calendar keeps saying July 27. Why is it doing that, when it KNOWS I want it to say October 4? :down:

The jealously part has many levels. The main one is the appearance that Jack's one of those types who just have everything fall their way. But James DOES know better than that. He said it to Kate, way back in "The Moth," "There ain't that much difference between us." And the more he's gotten to know Jack, the less able he is to keep that jealousy going (except insofar as Jack does seem to have Kate around his little finger). The man he claims to hate, claims to disdain, claims to envy, is also (as he admitted to Jack himself!) "The closest thing I have to a friend on this Island."

Which is, of course, why I spend so much time over at the JuSt thread--their rather edgy friendship is one of the best things about this show! :biggrin:

Question: Does everyone agree that Sawyer is jealous of Jack? If so, then why?

Ooooh, I'm so glad you asked this MSF...

Now this is what I think, I think that definately yes Sawyer is jealous of Jack, and by the same token Jack is jealous of Sawyer. In so many instances, they are almost mirror images of each other. Jack represents everything Sawyer wants to be and thinks he'll never be. Part of him is dying to be the hero and the good guy. He sees that part of Jack and he's a bit jealous of it. He hates that fact that he is who he is and he feels he has no recourse but to be the person he is. He hates that this life, in his mind, has been forced on him. And made him become something he never really thought he'd ever be.

Jack is jealous of Sawyer because he sees the recklessness that he's never had the chance to have. Jack has always been the good guy and has alswyas been able to be counted on to do the right thing, which to him is a disgusting curse. He yearns to be bad, and to have the attitude and lack of responsibility that he THINKS Sawyer has. This is not say that Sawyer has this, obviously he doens't because Sawyer doesn't like this in himself in the first place. But in Jack's mind this is what Sawyer has that he doesn't.


Okay ya'll this is from the Lost Magazine and directly quoted from Josh...Sawyer will always screw it up because he's Sawyer. He's all caught up in it now and he's got feelings for her and there is nothing he can do about it. She's got him in a way.....squeee!!!!!!

I found some interesting tidbits in the Outlaws script which I will post tomorrow or over the weekend.

I'm sorry I've been so lacking in Chapter 18 and videos. This new job is kicking my tushie. God love my mom, she's even offered to pay me to saty home. Can't do that though, have to be an upstanding person, at least until I win the lottery.

Huggs, my outkast family,
See ya'll tomorrow,
Lisa ;)

lisa darlin you said that way better than i did :shesaid: they see in eachother the things they wish they could be, and think they can never have. They don't realize sometimes that they do have a choice in the matter.

and about your spoiler from the Mag SQUEEEEEEEEEEE i love that too :biggrin:

and don't worry about neglecting your duties, we understand perfectly. My job kicks my patootie all the time. teehee

But as soon as you get the chance, Lisa. . . .

Well I'm up entirely to late and I'll be a zombie tomorrow but I had to do one for my outkast family...I've been trying to put one together for this old Steve Wariner song for a long time...it's very powerful and fits them, I think, though it's more about a cheating husband, but some of the lyrics fit them...

I just couldn't let another night go by and not make a video...so here you go my dear outkasts family...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKUOEAoslS8

And Fricks, thank you for your kind words...I've been a teary basket case all day...but it'll get better...

And, Save The Humans, you asked for it darlin...hope you like it...

nighty night everybody,
Lisa ;)

In the interest of full disclosure, I must admit that, were a gun to my head, I would come down on the Jack/Kate side. That being said...

Whoosh. Yes. It may be nearly 100F where I am, but the chemistry in that scene is far hotter. I've always thought that Sawyer and Kate had amazing chemistry, mostly because of the way they play to each other's strengths and weaknesses. While I (as a mild Jater) might not see him as the best choice for her in terms of a long-term relationship at this point in time, I would never deny that they bring out the best and worst in each other. When Kate's concerned or upset, Sawyer is the first to comfort or console her. If she's acting out, he's the first to call her on her bull****, and has absolutely no qualms in confronting her about her past, her lies, and the secrets she'd prefer to keep to herself. Everyone needs someone like that in their life, a friend who's not afraid to be honest to a fault, who's not afraid to lay it all out on the table, and if it causes a break in the friendship (as in the aftermath of BTR by the fire), then so be it.

Sawyer's always played that role to Kate where Jack has shied away. He doesn't want to know what she did, and Sawyer up and told Kate that he knew who she was. Sawyer makes no bones about his jealousy of Jack and teases Kate at every opportunity about her doctor boyfriend, but he still cares enough to comfort her in the aftermath of Libby's death. It takes a much stronger person than many people I know to put pride aside to that degree, and it shows the strength of their connection.

I won't argue my Jate POV here, since this isn't the forum. But let me say, as one Lost-fan to others, that I am a pro-Skate Jater, and love the fact that the triangle is in full swing.

Everblue3, thank you for your comments. Welcome to the thread and even if you are pro-Jate it's nice to see you pop in here with positive statements and respecting our thread and stance. *hugs*

I think many of us can agree that Sawyer and Kate do at times bring out the best and worst of each other, and are sometimes their own worst enemies when it comes to doing the mature/adult thing. I enjoy the constant give and take of their relationship and how even though there are rocky moments, underneath at all you just know that they would be there for each other when they needed it most.

Strangely I think Kate knows she can rely on Sawyer to come through, and she is one of the few who does...despite everything...still want to trust him. This is huge for Sawyer, and I think it's one of the reasons why he finds his growing attraction and (dare I say it) need for her quite frightening and unsettling. Is it any wonder? He made a living conning women into believing he was head over heels for them, into cheating their spouses and giving him their life savings...and now he can't run or hide from Kate. A woman who on many levels understands him and yet still expects more from him, believes there is more to him than just the jaded cynical dissolute conman. He's terrified on so many levels, I am sure. Especially since he wants her and yet believes he can't possibly deserve her when Jack is right there, seemingly commanding all of her respect, admiration and...love.

Yes, I think this season will prove an interesting one for the triangle.

Gods no! :eek2: :eek2: :rolleyes:

I was talking about the Skate kiss in CM. :kiss:

Whew, what a relief! i was starting to wonder... i just have been having time keeping up, it's like a chat room in here sometimes!
100%


In the interest of full disclosure, I must admit that, were a gun to my head, I would come down on the Jack/Kate side. That being said...

Whoosh. Yes. It may be nearly 100F where I am, but the chemistry in that scene is far hotter. I've always thought that Sawyer and Kate had amazing chemistry, mostly because of the way they play to each other's strengths and weaknesses. While I (as a mild Jater) might not see him as the best choice for her in terms of a long-term relationship at this point in time, I would never deny that they bring out the best and worst in each other. When Kate's concerned or upset, Sawyer is the first to comfort or console her. If she's acting out, he's the first to call her on her bull****, and has absolutely no qualms in confronting her about her past, her lies, and the secrets she'd prefer to keep to herself. Everyone needs someone like that in their life, a friend who's not afraid to be honest to a fault, who's not afraid to lay it all out on the table, and if it causes a break in the friendship (as in the aftermath of BTR by the fire), then so be it.

Sawyer's always played that role to Kate where Jack has shied away. He doesn't want to know what she did, and Sawyer up and told Kate that he knew who she was. Sawyer makes no bones about his jealousy of Jack and teases Kate at every opportunity about her doctor boyfriend, but he still cares enough to comfort her in the aftermath of Libby's death. It takes a much stronger person than many people I know to put pride aside to that degree, and it shows the strength of their connection.

I won't argue my Jate POV here, since this isn't the forum. But let me say, as one Lost-fan to others, that I am a pro-Skate Jater, and love the fact that the triangle is in full swing.


True that, except for the part with Jack working out... Okay, i will admit that when i first started to watch the show that i was a Jater. Sawyer had to grow on me, and i usually don't go for the bad boy types... but now, even when i watch the s1 eps, i wonder what in the heck i was thinking! Fox totally turns me off now (not that he was ever a dreamboat to begin with), his chemistry with Evi is nonexistant, and--let's face it--Jack's turned into an @*#. i used to feel sympathy for him, now i just feel annoyed.

Now i'm not putting down Jaters, you guys can feel however you want to feel, but... what in the world are you guys thinking?!? :confused: ;)

No worries! Hehe I agree sometimes we can talk up a storm, but it's all good.

I could never think that jate kiss was anything but awkward, confusing and unfulfilling compared to the skate one - which was pure magic and universally loved if the media hype and response is anything to go by.

That said, I would be the first to admit that Kate has feelings for Jack and vice versa. My problem with her getting with him over Sawyer is that I see it as being imbalanced and skewed towards Jack in terms of power. Sawyer and Kate exude that quality of an edgy relationship where they clash and challenge each other and yet at the same time, underneath it all, seem to 'get' each other. I see that as lacking with jack/kate. It just seems like the writers are trying to suspend disbelief and shoehorn two disparate characters together by external circumstances. Some people argue that Skate is unhealthy and 'drags Kate down' but I believe that Jate is more unhealthy in its 'crush' nature and unlikely to survive the true mundane ups and downs of life.

For me Skate is far more real, and grounded in the complications of adult life. It's about compromises and messiness and comfort and mutual understanding.

Question: Does everyone agree that Sawyer is jealous of Jack? If so, then why?
Uh... no, he's jealous of Kate and envious of Jack (ticks me off when people get these two mixed up, they're totally different things :rolleyes:). Sorry if i sound b*$(#y tonight... Okay, focusing: i don't think that Sawyer feels so much envious as much as irritated by the way Jack treats him and delighted that Jack is so easy to rile up. :biggrin: Yeah, he's jealous for Kate, look at his comment about "the net". He actually took it pretty well, only with Sawyer things are always buried underneath the surface and he feels them more than he lets on. But i think that his messing around with Jack isn't a hate thing so much as a love thing (since the friend comment) and maybe he'd rather lose Kate to Jack than some other people, but i think Sawyer knows that Jack doesn't know how to treat her right.

*can't believe she's still up*
but i had to comment on your beautfiul post Zoriah :biggrin:

It's one of the things i love about them is that she sees so much more in him than alot of the others do. She knows he can be better, and she cares about whether he lives or dies, i doubt he's had much of that. And for someone like him that's overwhelming. But sometimes what you need is one person to care about you cause if no one did that would be a sad exstence. And like darbi pointed out in her beautiful post earlier, revenge was all he had to live for, there was nothing else. 'nobody missed him' as Kate pointed out in The Moth that time, that hit home cause that was sadly true. It's easier to be alone to let someone care about you, esp if you feel you don't deserve it. And your right too, he looks at Jack and probably thinks 'why would she ever want me when she could have that?" He sees in Jack all the things he thinks he can never be to her, good, strong and stable. He doesn't realize that he has been those things for her on many occasions.

Preaching to the choir, Zoriah! But yes, the relationship between Kate and Jack to me brings up the quote "Not if you were the last man on earth." i just don't remember why i ever thought Jack was the guy for Kate... and the thing is, Jack said that everyone deserves a second chance on the Island, but he won't give that chance to Sawyer for nothin'. i guess i'm too much of an oldest and independent to listen to Jack and follow him no matter what. If i was really on the Island we'd be having issues! Either i'd be fighting with him or i'd be ignoring everything that he was saying and be off on my own as a loner. i don't like it when it's Jack's way or the highway usually. :frown:

Fair play to you for seeing all this and admitting to it if you prefer Jate! Put simply, I think the reason he acts in this way - comforting Kate etc - is because he genuinely does love her.

I have enjoyed the triangle element in the show too everblue, but I hope it doesn't keep 'in full swing' forever - would make the suspense of who Kate ends up with too long & drawn out.
Oh no, MSF, I agree that the triangle can't be interminable, if only because we (the collective Triangle partisans) only have so much hair to rip out in anguish. I'd be somewhat annoyed if it morphed into a Friends-esque Ross/Rachel charade. There are other plotlines that are more entertaining than this one, and I'd like to get to them sooner, rather than later.
that was so well said that i'm speechless i really am... thanks for coming by :biggrin:
Of course! I guess I've never understood why the support of Jate and Skate would have to be mutually exclusive. And all this board's talk about that kiss got me worked up...I just had to butt my nose and two cents in.
an explanation of why Jacks hair won't grow
Hmm, yes. We'd like to know that, too. Maybe because MF looks better shorn, so with all the other hassles he as to deal with (crazy French chicks, murderin' Others, poison darts, Sullivan's hives), the island decided to cut him some slack.
The jealously part has many levels. The main one is the appearance that Jack's one of those types who just have everything fall their way. But James DOES know better than that. He said it to Kate, way back in "The Moth," "There ain't that much difference between us." And the more he's gotten to know Jack, the less able he is to keep that jealousy going (except insofar as Jack does seem to have Kate around his little finger). The man he claims to hate, claims to disdain, claims to envy, is also (as he admitted to Jack himself!) "The closest thing I have to a friend on this Island."

Which is, of course, why I spend so much time over at the JuSt thread--their rather edgy friendship is one of the best things about this show! :biggrin:
Yep yep yep, STH. Couldn't've said it any better.
Everblue3, thank you for your comments. Welcome to the thread and even if you are pro-Jate it's nice to see you pop in here with positive statements and respecting our thread and stance. *hugs*

I think many of us can agree that Sawyer and Kate do at times bring out the best and worst of each other, and are sometimes their own worst enemies when it comes to doing the mature/adult thing. I enjoy the constant give and take of their relationship and how even though there are rocky moments, underneath at all you just know that they would be there for each other when they needed it most.
Thanks for the welcome. I'm in agreement with a lot of the points you guys make, I just occasionally draw different conclusions. What you've written here is probably one of the best arguments I've seen for why Sawyer is the closest friend that Kate has on the island; it's just the romantic angle that I see differently. S'not a bad thing, just different.
True that, except for the part with Jack working out... Okay, i will admit that when i first started to watch the show that i was a Jater. Sawyer had to grow on me, and i usually don't go for the bad boy types... but now, even when i watch the s1 eps, i wonder what in the heck i was thinking! Fox totally turns me off now (not that he was ever a dreamboat to begin with), his chemistry with Evi is nonexistant, and--let's face it--Jack's turned into an @*#. i used to feel sympathy for him, now i just feel annoyed.

Now i'm not putting down Jaters, you guys can feel however you want to feel, but... what in the world are you guys thinking?!? :confused: ;)
There are a few of use who'd be more than happy to argue this point (I myself am fond of the chemistry, yes, there is chemistry and it is painfully awkward), but there's a whole other thread for that. If you're wondering what we're thinking though, in how we draw our Jack-loving conclusions, I'd invite you over to read a few posts that have been made recently. If you can look past the overt preference to Jate, I think you'll see that many of us aren't opposed to Sawyer as a character, just as a long-term match for Kate. We're not out to make you squirm, honest. :angel:
It's one of the things i love about them is that she sees so much more in him than alot of the others do. She knows he can be better, and she cares about whether he lives or dies, i doubt he's had much of that. And for someone like him that's overwhelming. But sometimes what you need is one person to care about you cause if no one did that would be a sad exstence. And like darbi pointed out in her beautiful post earlier, revenge was all he had to live for, there was nothing else. 'nobody missed him' as Kate pointed out in The Moth that time, that hit home cause that was sadly true. It's easier to be alone to let someone care about you, esp if you feel you don't deserve it. And your right too, he looks at Jack and probably thinks 'why would she ever want me when she could have that?" He sees in Jack all the things he thinks he can never be to her, good, strong and stable. He doesn't realize that he has been those things for her on many occasions.
Oh, fricksgurl75, definitely. I think you've hit it right on the money.

Okay ya'll this is from the Lost Magazine and directly quoted from Josh..."Sawyer will always screw it up because he's Sawyer. He's all caught up in it now and he's got feelings for her and there is nothing he can do about it. She's got him in a way....."squeee!!!!!!

Okay Im putting that quote on the first page right next to Evi's :D. Thank you Lisa. And keep your chin up girl. Things will get better.

And there was a question, Is Sawyer jealous of Jack and Jack jealous of Sawyer??? Yeah in a way I think they both are.

You look at Sawyer a guy who hates himself and likes to push people away. And he sees Kate a girl who likes him but cant get past her hero worship for Jack, and I think that would bring out a certain level of envy for any guy. Besides the fact that as hard as Sawyer tries to get under Jacks skin and make him look bad, people still look up to Jack. And I think Sawyer respects that.

And I think Jack is also a little jealous of Sawyer as well, although I doubt that hed ever admit it. But I think Jack wants to take the easy way out with Sawyer. Dismiss him as the token trouble maker like most everyone else in Sawyers life has done, but he cant help but respect the guy for throwing all inhibitions to the wind and letting life take him where it can.

One thing season 2 did for me was make me see Sawyer and Jack in a different light. Almost like they switched places. Cause Sawyer took on the level headed role there, especially towards the end of the season. He was the rational one and demanded that they bring along Sayid, and told Jack to take care of Libby instead of going in guns blazing without a plan. Similar to Jack in s1. Where as Jack kinda Lost control. Everyone was depending on him and the leadership aspect got to be too much, and when he saw Sawyer brought back half dead and Shannon shot, I think he lost it. He realized that this thing was way out of control, which is when the whole army plan came into effect. But Jack got so paranoid he started to shut people out. And then when Ana was shot and then Libby, he was nearing his breaking point. But they really are two sides to the same coin. Both men are very similar.

Anyway, back to Skate. The reason I think Sawyer is better off with Kate and vice versa, is not only thier roles on the island, but their temperaments and personalities. Id like to see Kate around someone she can be herself with and let down her hair. Not a fantasy. Fantasies arent real, and shes got Jack built up in her mind as this great hero. But who is the man under the hero mask? I dont think Kate knows that. I dont think Jack wants her to know that, and I havent seen Kate try to know. Just observation, but Id much rather watch drama, angst and passion, over awkwardness. :)

What you've written here is probably one of the best arguments I've seen for why Sawyer is the closest friend that Kate has on the island; it's just the romantic angle that I see differently. S'not a bad thing, just different.



Hi everblue!

I can honestly say that I respect you and your opinion more than I thought I could concerning Jate.

I have always believed, though, that the best marriages start out as friends. That's not to say all good friends would make great couples. But a good friendshop between Skate is a promising thing.

And thing thing about the island cutting Jack slack about his hair is so funny!

I like both characters, and they do seem to change into each others' behaviors at times.

Bravo, girlspy, awesome post! Jack is very closed to everyone, the typical "i'm the one in charge, so i have to be invincible" idea at work. He started shutting Kate out when he found out about her being the one in handcuffs, then opened back up, then shut her back out again, then finally let her back in his good graces... on and on again repeatedly. Which is why i have to disagree with everblue because as much as i want to like Jack and as much as i feel for him about Sarah leaving him he has been a very bad friend to Kate and he cheated on his wife, even if it was only a kiss. Friends accept you for who you are but tell you when you're being dumb and husbands don't kiss other women. Enough said.
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p.s. i have been thinking about lurking in the Jater threads to see if i could make any sense of your position. It's not that i'm closed to other ideas, i just am really grounded in my own opinion at the moment, which sometimes makes me come off wrong, i think. Anyways, thanks for having the guts to post here! ;)

In the interest of full disclosure, I must admit that, were a gun to my head, I would come down on the Jack/Kate side. That being said...

Oh, sweet lord. Hope it never comes down to that. Someone is sure to miss you, dear.

Kidding, kidding. :hug:



Whoosh. Yes. It may be nearly 100F where I am, but the chemistry in that scene is far hotter. I've always thought that Sawyer and Kate had amazing chemistry, mostly because of the way they play to each other's strengths and weaknesses. While I (as a mild Jater) might not see him as the best choice for her in terms of a long-term relationship at this point in time, I would never deny that they bring out the best and worst in each other. When Kate's concerned or upset, Sawyer is the first to comfort or console her. If she's acting out, he's the first to call her on her bull****, and has absolutely no qualms in confronting her about her past, her lies, and the secrets she'd prefer to keep to herself. Everyone needs someone like that in their life, a friend who's not afraid to be honest to a fault, who's not afraid to lay it all out on the table, and if it causes a break in the friendship (as in the aftermath of BTR by the fire), then so be it.

This was so eloquently stated. :clap: You're right, Sawyer and Kate do seem to bring the best and worst out of one another, and that's part of why I, personally, enjoy their interactions so much. They aren't afraid to get in each others faces, call each other on their crap. Everyone, as you mentioned needs someone in their life who isn't afraid to call you on your nonsense when need be, and comfort or console you when things fall apart. When you have that in a partner or potential lover, it's even more endearing and necessary. I'm unsure why you would give that up for anything else.

Sawyer's always played that role to Kate where Jack has shied away. He doesn't want to know what she did, and Sawyer up and told Kate that he knew who she was. Sawyer makes no bones about his jealousy of Jack and teases Kate at every opportunity about her doctor boyfriend, but he still cares enough to comfort her in the aftermath of Libby's death. It takes a much stronger person than many people I know to put pride aside to that degree, and it shows the strength of their connection.

Sawyer's jealousy certainly reared it's ugly head rather high towards the end of S2, didn't it? He's always maintained a somewhate detached prespective in regards to J/K. Teasing Kate, making comments about her doctor/boyfriend was about as far as he would go, but it became a little more serious, more personal this season because his feeling for Kate have changed. While I believe there is some jealousy and envy towards Jack, I'm not certain it has all that much to do with Kate specifically.

I think he looks at Jack, like someone posted earlier as a person he possible could have been if his life hadn't been derailed by his parents tragic death. He sees the respect Jack receives from people almost without question, (although that's being challenged more and more) and yes, Kate's near hero worship of the guy is more than a little unsettling. For so many reasons. Not that he'd ever admit it, I believe Sawyer admires Jack quite a lot, but like anyone else on that islad, he has no qualms calling Jack on his crap when it's needed.

I could never think that jate kiss was anything but awkward, confusing and unfulfilling compared to the skate one - which was pure magic and universally loved if the media hype and response is anything to go by.

Here's the thing about the Skate kiss.

That kiss was either going to sink or swim based solely on how and what Josh and Evi were able to bring to it, and transmit across the screen.

The audience was right there in that moment with them. There was no music to stir emotions, no whipping camera angles to highlight the moment, nothing but Josh and Evi. In truth, with the way it was shot, it was almost an intrusion on what was otherwise a very private moment...and they had to sell it on sheer...technique (for a lack of a better word) It had to passionate, hot, intense, desperate, tender, powerful, a little out of control...needless to say...they captured every bit of that and sold that kiss like two people had never kissed on television before.

Sawyer's jealousy certainly reared it's ugly head rather high towards the end of S2, didn't it? He's always maintained a somewhate detached prespective in regards to J/K. Teasing Kate, making comments about her doctor/boyfriend was about as far as he would go, but it became a little more serious, more personal this season because he's feeling for Kate have changed. While I believe there is some jealousy and envy towards Jack, I'm not certain it has all that much to do with Kate specifically.

I think he looks at Jack, like someone posted earlier as a person he possible could have been if his life hadn't been derailed by his parents tragic death. He sees the respect Jack receives from people almost without question, (although that's being challenged more and more) and yes, Kate's near hero worship of the guy is more than a little unsettling. For so many reasons. Not that he'd ever admit it, I believe Sawyer admires Jack quite a lot, but like anyone else on that islad, he has no qualms calling Jack on his crap when it's needed.
See, this is why I love to hear from the Sawyer-fans...you look at situations in ways that I don't consider all the time, and it makes for very refreshing and thoughtful reading. He's a harder character for me to really get -- mostly because I don't know many people like him -- but I love the clashes between Jack and Sawyer vis-a-vis Kate and just vis-a-vis each other...there's far too much there for the writers not to mine continually. Yet another hurrah for the JuSt thread :).

Which is why i have to disagree with everblue because as much as i want to like Jack and as much as i feel for him about Sarah leaving him he has been a very bad friend to Kate and he cheated on his wife, even if it was only a kiss. Friends accept you for who you are but tell you when you're being dumb and husbands don't kiss other women. Enough said.
My apologies...I tried to avoid bringing Jack and/or Sarah into the conversation, this being the Sawyer/Kate thread and all. If you got any impression that I was defending Jack here (I'll defend him elsewhere), I'm sorry.

p.s. i have been thinking about lurking in the Jater threads to see if i could make any sense of your position. It's not that i'm closed to other ideas, i just am really grounded in my own opinion at the moment, which sometimes makes me come off wrong, i think. Anyways, thanks for having the guts to post here! ;) No harm in trying to see where the other side gets their opinions. In my view, learning/understanding an opposing point of view is one of the best ways to become more firm in your own -- it allows you to see the weaknesses in your argument, and gives you confidence that, despite the points made by other positions, your faith isn't misplaced. But I do know how hard it is not to want to shout No, you're wrong, you're all wrong, idiots! at various moments, so however it works best for you, I'm all for it. I'm just glad you have all been so patient/tolerant of my POVs.

Of course! I guess I've never understood why the support of Jate and Skate would have to be mutually exclusive. And all this board's talk about that kiss got me worked up...I just had to butt my nose and two cents in.

.

Thanks for the welcome. I'm in agreement with a lot of the points you guys make, I just occasionally draw different conclusions. What you've written here is probably one of the best arguments I've seen for why Sawyer is the closest friend that Kate has on the island; it's just the romantic angle that I see differently. S'not a bad thing, just different.

There are a few of use who'd be more than happy to argue this point (I myself am fond of the chemistry, yes, there is chemistry and it is painfully awkward), but there's a whole other thread for that. If you're wondering what we're thinkin though, in how we draw our Jack-loving conclusions, I'd invite you over to read a few posts that have been made recently. If you can look past the overt preference to Jate, I think you'll see that many of us aren't opposed to Sawyer as a character, just as a long-term match for Kate. We're not out to make you squirm, honest. :angel:



I don't see why you can't entertain other aspects while maintiaing your own opinions, I talk to several Jaters and i understaned their point of view but it's a personal preference and i respect that. I love that you feel comfortable enough to come in here and post cause its always nice to hear from the other side. And who wouldn't want to talk about that kiss eh? :biggrin:
And Sawyer does feel infrerior to Jack in Kates eyes i believe, thinks he could never be that for her, which isn't true.

[/Okay Im putting that quote on the first page right next to Evi':Ds
girlspy please do so, i love that quote, poor guy is gone for her and can't do a damn thng about it teeeeheeee

Hi everblue!

I can honestly say that I respect you and your opinion more than I thought I could concerning Jate.

I have always believed, though, that the best marriages start out as friends. That's not to say all good friends would make great couples. But a good friendshop between Skate is a promising thing.

And thing thing about the island cutting Jack slack about his hair is so funny!
the hair thing is funny but i love what you said about the friendship factor, it is a good foundation to build on in a sense. I couldn't agree more on the idea that it is a good start.



Here's the thing about the Skate kiss.

That kiss was either going to sink or swim based solely on how and what Josh and Evi were able to bring to it, and transmit across the screen.

The audience was right there in that moment with them. There was no music to stir emotions, no whipping camera angles to highlight the moment, nothing but Josh and Evi. In truth, with the way it was shot, it was almost an intrusion on what was otherwise a very private moment...and they had to sell it on sheer...technique (for a lack of a better word) It had to passionate, hot, intense, desperate, tender, powerful, a little out of control...needless to say...they captured every bit of that and sold that kiss like two people had never kissed on television before.

I think that kiss took em by surprise in a sense, It the work of the actors more than anything that made that scene what it was. The circumstances behind it, the way he looked at her right before, the lack of music or any other distracting elements, just the jungle noises and the noises they made :naughty: and just the plain intimacy of the moment. It was just so raw and personal and like nothing i'd seen on TV. No wonder people can't stop talking about it 2 seasons later

All your thoughts have been wonderful and I've been reading with interest, but life has intruded on my pleasant fantasies and I haven't had time to think cogent thoughts. Perhaps this weekend I'll be able to view some of the clips--and do a comparision of the two kisses trying to see what symbols are present.

And yes, it is amazing that we are still talking about the Skate kiss two seasons later. It's the only kiss I've ever remembered on tv. It was one hot kiss!!

Love all your answers to the question I posted - thanks everyone :biggrin:

Lisa - I hope you had a better day today. I have had those kind of days in the past when I've had a rough time in work so I feel for you - nothing is worth getting that upset over though this is easier said than done I know - hope it gets better for you anyway, if not you could always leave couldn't you? It wouldn't be the end of the world ;) - Is early days yet though so maybe it will get better with time
I'm sure the rest of the discussion on this thread will cheer you up too - and we'll all look forward to your next instalment with fanfic when you get around to it :happy:

No answers as to why voting isn't possible on that poll either, except that others can't vote on it either, so it probably is closed - :confused: :ohwell:

OK, I think I'm too tired to continue..... am off to the land of nod (hopefully to dream of Sawyer/Skate :wink3:)
G'night all,
See you tomorrow :)

You know, my dear outkast family, I have to tell you all this...girlspy15 and I had talked about what to do over the summer and we thought it would be a good idea to built up outkasts and give us something to talk about, but I had no idea it would turn out like this...

You all have made this just wonderful...and to have a Jater come in that enjoys talking to us Skaters is fantastic...so many excellent discussions and such thoughtful ideas. I am so proud of all of you...don't mean to sound mushy, but I am.

Just wanted to tell you all that...I'll see ya a little later...I need to give the kiss some thought...hehehe...like I don't think about it all the time...

Hugs,
Lisa :kiss:

See, this is why I love to hear from the Sawyer-fans...you look at situations in ways that I don't consider all the time, and it makes for very refreshing and thoughtful reading. He's a harder character for me to really get -- mostly because I don't know many people like him -- but I love the clashes between Jack and Sawyer vis-a-vis Kate and just vis-a-vis each other...there's far too much there for the writers not to mine continually. Yet another hurrah for the JuSt thread :).


Oh, most definitely. :clapping: Never, not a eye-catching moment when all that sexy is on screen at once.

I can understand what you mean about a character like Sawyer...he's not easily understood, I suppose. For that reason, I make the concentrated effort to try and relate to his brand of logic based on what we've come to know about his past. Everything stems from that one life-shattering event, and although his adult actions and behavior aren't excusable, given that one event...his decision to take up the life he's led makes sense in a very sad way.

Don't mean to sound like a car salesman/woman trying to sell the Sawyer's character or anything, but, I think sometimes viewers take on the attitude of other characters in the show towards a specific one, especially if that character is rather...difficult, and never look any further. Not saying that how you view him, I'm just saying. I'll admit, although I liked Sawyer's character from the start, but had 'CM' not come along when it did, he was seriously headed to tired, bad-boy cliche-ville for me.

You all have made this just wonderful...and to have a Jater come in that enjoys talking to us Skaters is fantastic...so many excellent discussions and such thoughtful ideas. I am so proud of all of you...don't mean to sound mushy, but I am. Heh. I'm a diplomat by training, so I generally don't balk at boundaries or enemy lines. Besides -- I go where there's good conversation to be had :).
I can understand what you mean about a character like Sawyer...he's not easily understood, I suppose. For that reason, I make the concentrated effort to try and relate to his brand of logic based on what we've come to know about his past. Everything stems from that one life-shattering event, and although his adult actions and behavior aren't excusable, given that one event...his decision to take up the life he's led makes sense in a very sad way.

Don't mean to sound like a car salesman/woman trying to sell the Sawyer's character or anything, but, I think sometimes viewers take on the attitude of other characters in the show towards a specific one, especially if that character is rather...difficult, and never look any further. Not saying that how you view him, I'm just saying. I'll admit, although I liked Sawyer's character from the start, but had 'CM' not come along when it did, he was seriously headed to tired, bad-boy cliche-ville for me.

I'm not one to stereotype easily, either in life or in television characters. My inherent difficulty comes from my rather unimpressive, if loving and positive, childhood. There's no way to learn the kind of trauma that develops from those childhood experiences, and it wouldn't do me any favors to pretend I "understand" him. But, doing what I can with my limited faculties, I still love his dimensions and multifaceted reactions. I'm the last person who would ever try to pass off Sawyer as just another con man who's only after Kate for one thing.

Heh. I'm a diplomat by training, so I generally don't balk at boundaries or enemy lines. Besides -- I go where there's good conversation to be had :).


I'm not one to stereotype easily, either in life or in television characters. My inherent difficulty comes from my rather unimpressive, if loving and positive, childhood. There's no way to learn the kind of trauma that develops from those childhood experiences, and it wouldn't do me any favors to pretend I "understand" him. But, doing what I can with my limited faculties, I still love his dimensions and multifaceted reactions. I'm the last person who would ever try to pass off Sawyer as just another con man who's only after Kate for one thing.


I believe that's all most of us can do is try and understand where the guy is coming from. Learning his trama is unnecessary, impossible, really. Most of us generally have had relatively normal, positive upbringings...so even the most empathetic of viewers can only extend so much sympathy for the guy. Being able, and wanting to see past the facade and all it entails is part of the enjoyment of getting to know and watching his character as he struggles with himself and the situations he can't escape from.

One thing season 2 did for me was make me see Sawyer and Jack in a different light. Almost like they switched places. Cause Sawyer took on the level headed role there, especially towards the end of the season. He was the rational one and demanded that they bring along Sayid, and told Jack to take care of Libby instead of going in guns blazing without a plan. Similar to Jack in s1. Where as Jack kinda Lost control. Everyone was depending on him and the leadership aspect got to be too much, and when he saw Sawyer brought back half dead and Shannon shot, I think he lost it. He realized that this thing was way out of control, which is when the whole army plan came into effect. But Jack got so paranoid he started to shut people out. And then when Ana was shot and then Libby, he was nearing his breaking point. But they really are two sides to the same coin. Both men are very similar.
STH :hug: girlspy!!

"There ain't that much difference between us." James to Kate, about him and Jack, in "The Moth."

Nope. There ain't. :no2:

Well, since there's no new "Battlefield Revisited" chapter (hint, hint), I'm off to the JuSt thread!

I believe that's all most of us can do is try and understand where the guy is coming from. Learning his trama is unnecessary, impossible, really. Most of us generally have had relatively normal, positive upbringings...so even the most empathetic of viewers can only extend so much sympathy for the guy. Being able, and wanting to see past the facade and all it entails is part of the enjoyment of getting to know and watching his character as he struggles with himself and the situations he can't escape from.

You guys are right it is hard to relate to a character like him and the choices and traumas he's gone through, most of us are relativly normal. I know someone who went throught something similar though, can't get into much detail but I can tell you the effects are felt your whole life. It definaes who you are as a person and how you deal with life in general. We are the sum total of our experiences, and everything we do is based on that. What seems selfsih and illogical to normal, well-adjusted people is perfectly normal to someone like him. Unless you've lived through that you have no way of comprehending the depfths of it. It was the single defining moment in his life, the one he can't escape and it caused a lifetime of damage as a result. It's not an excuse for his behavour but it's a reason for it. And you understand the reasons, you can deal with someone better. Kate knows why, and because of that, she can deal with him better than anyone else. Sometimes all you need is for someonne to understand.

All your thoughts have been wonderful and I've been reading with interest, but life has intruded on my pleasant fantasies and I haven't had time to think cogent thoughts. Perhaps this weekend I'll be able to view some of the clips--and do a comparision of the two kisses trying to see what symbols are present.

And yes, it is amazing that we are still talking about the Skate kiss two seasons later. It's the only kiss I've ever remembered on tv. It was one hot kiss!!

Actually, I can remember this one and one more, but by far our Skate kiss was tremendously hotter. At the time, which happened to be 1985, the David and Maddie kiss on Moonlighting was tremendously hot...but not like this one...of course they had all the music and all that mess, but this one is just so fantastically simple.

And by simple, I mean simple in it's surroundings and no goofy music, no swirving cameras and mess like that. The one thing that I keep coming back around to, and I'm sure this is one for our dear Perdue, is the fact that they didn't touch other than the kiss. I keep thinking that it's not like the kinds you see where two people are all over each other. the only thing that could touch were their faces. I can't help but think there must be something to that. I mean we know the tree was an obvious phallic symbol but I just can't help but think there's something inthe fact that they couldn't touch anything more than their faces.

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree...but who knows, except maybe for Perdue...hehehe.

Anyway, there is so much to learn about these two characters and so much to understand. There are parts of Sawyer I don't like, after The Long Con, I was so upset and so teary I thought I couldn't even watch the show anymore. I expected him to be bad but I didn't expect what we got and it took a lot of studying and soul searching and talking with my fellow outkasters and even some Dimples for me to understand exactly what was going on.

But now that I have I find that to be one of my favorite epis...and again, I'm dying to hear our dear Perdue's take on that one too...

Heh. I'm a diplomat by training, so I generally don't balk at boundaries or enemy lines. Besides -- I go where there's good conversation to be had :).

Well I'll tell you this, you're in the right place darlin'...come on and join in...welcome!!!

I'm still looking for some good stuff from the Outlaws script...I'll post some over the weekend.

Huggs,
Lisa

P.S. Hope ya'll liked last night's video...there's another one coming!!!

See, this is why I love to hear from the Sawyer-fans...you look at situations in ways that I don't consider all the time, and it makes for very refreshing and thoughtful reading.

That's what makes the internet and message boards so great!

My apologies...I tried to avoid bringing Jack and/or Sarah into the conversation, this being the Sawyer/Kate thread and all. If you got any impression that I was defending Jack here (I'll defend him elsewhere), I'm sorry.

No, not particularly, i just felt like saying why i don't particularly care for Jack anymore. i felt like making a point, maybe i should say, defending my position more than putting down yours. i don't want to attack Jack, i used to like him a lot, but right now i'm just... :mad: at him!

No harm in trying to see where the other side gets their opinions. In my view, learning/understanding an opposing point of view is one of the best ways to become more firm in your own -- it allows you to see the weaknesses in your argument, and gives you confidence that, despite the points made by other positions, your faith isn't misplaced. But I do know how hard it is not to want to shout No, you're wrong, you're all wrong, idiots! at various moments, so however it works best for you, I'm all for it. I'm just glad you have all been so patient/tolerant of my POVs.

i really try not to flame... i've had bad experiences on another board where people would just jump all over me because my opinion was just a little bit different. We were basically saying the same things, but all they saw was that i saw it from a different angle. Not only that, but the mods hated me for some reason. i didn't curse at the time, i never flamed people or put them down for having a different opinion, but things got really nasty. i still get irritated at mods because i am 100% American and get really irritated when anyone tells me that i don't have freedom of speech. That became moderated at the old board.

So, if that all sounded way off base, let me bring it back to the center... feel free to continue to respectfully disagree with us while broadening our Island-view. ;)

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Lisa - I hope you had a better day today. I have had those kind of days in the past when I've had a rough time in work so I feel for you - nothing is worth getting that upset over though this is easier said than done I know - hope it gets better for you anyway, if not you could always leave couldn't you? It wouldn't be the end of the world ;) - Is early days yet though so maybe it will get better with time

i totally feel for you, too, as i have had a truly heinous experience at my current job and it is a huge relief that tomorrow will be my last day! But even this is delayed as Wednesday should have been my last day, or Thursday at the latest, but instead my usual schedule was thrown out the window for my last week and i am working 50+ hours this week! i guess it's great that i'll be getting the overtime but i was planning on going camping! So next week i'll be gone and there will be much rejoicing (that my job is over, hopefully that i'm not here to muddle things up)! :biggrin:

Have a job interview in under ten hours, guess i'd better turn in. :drowsy:
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Ugh, sorry, i meant to ask earlier, but does anyone know (i can't remember) if they disclosed what James' father did for a living??? :confused:
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Again, i just thought of this, but i heard a woman on the radio a couple of nights ago talking about being orphaned. She said that she "knew" that no one loved or wanted her so she became tough and mean and all she wanted to do was get even with the world. That made me think of Voldemort right away, but now it makes me think of Sawyer, too. :frown: So sad.

Ugh, sorry, i meant to ask earlier, but does anyone know (i can't remember) if they disclosed what James' father did for a living??? :confused:
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Again, i just thought of this, but i heard a woman on the radio a couple of nights ago talking about being orphaned. She said that she "knew" that no one loved or wanted her so she became tough and mean and all she wanted to do was get even with the world. That made me think of Voldemort right away, but now it makes me think of Sawyer, too. :frown: So sad.

I don't think they've dislosed that yet Muchada who knows though it could be relevant.

And yes that does sound an awful like Sawyer dosen't it? :frown: When you think no one cares you develp that attitude i guess.

Anyway, there is so much to learn about these two characters and so much to understand. There are parts of Sawyer I don't like, after The Long Con, I was so upset and so teary I thought I couldn't even watch the show anymore. I expected him to be bad but I didn't expect what we got and it took a lot of studying and soul searching and talking with my fellow outkasters and even some Dimples for me to understand exactly what was going on.

I was like that too lisa it took some time to understand that in the context of his character but it was in character. And it was my favorite epi of the year even thought it caused so much in the way of angst for Skate. It was great cause it showed all the good and the bad about Sawyer as a character, all his strengths and weaknesses were out on display. And it really showed how sometimes his motivations are not always clearly known, even to himself. Josh knocked it out of the park in that one, as he usualy does.

and yes i would love to hear perdues take on that epi and on the points you brought up about the kiss as well. *ponders it herself..*

[FONT=Arial]

. . . i heard a woman on the radio a couple of nights ago talking about being orphaned. She said that she "knew" that no one loved or wanted her so she became tough and mean and all she wanted to do was get even with the world. That made me think of Voldemort right away, but now it makes me think of Sawyer, too. :frown: So sad.

This example make me sad and quiet. I can't imagine how this changes a person - a young boy growing into a man.


-
I'm loving the dialogue here. Things go way deeper than they appear on the surface. Is there useful dialogue like this on the Jater's thread? The couple of times I've been there, it's full of Sawyer bashing and Jack worship. I want to understand the dynamics without all the hate.

Good luck on your job interview Muchacha.

Great video as usual Lisa. :clap:

Fabulous discussion everyone. :)

Welcome to Outkasts everblue, thanks for your imput. Its always interesting to see how the other side sees things, and thats great that you want to learn more about Sawyer. I think he is a very complex character ;).

And I just wanted to add my 2 cents in with fricks about childhood trauma. Shes right, it sticks with you, especially cause your so impressionable at a young age. I know second hand the effects of suicide in the family. Its not something to be taken lightly. You cant ever get over something like that. And with Sawyer, he lost both his parents. Thats every childs worst nightmare. Most parents give their children a sense of security and to have that torn away, so suddenly, and so violently--hes not gonna get over that easily. I dont think Sawyer will ever fully get over it, the most we can hope for is he can try to forgive himself. :(

Okay, and I thought Id toss out another discussion question for you all. This is a hypothetical question. But assuming Sawyer is still looking for the real Sawyer what do you think he would do if he found him? What influence would Kate have on his decision?

I will come back to answer this.

This example make me sad and quiet. I can't imagine how this changes a person - a young boy growing into a man.

I'm loving the dialogue here. Things go way deeper than they appear on the surface. Is there useful dialogue like this on the Jater's thread? The couple of times I've been there, it's full of Sawyer bashing and Jack worship. I want to understand the dynamics without all the hate.

joemamaah: :crush: Your avi is killing me! I love the depth of the conversations here...best on the boards!

:broken_heart: It is sad and makes me feel all the more that the Sawyer character has a long journey ahead of him and that the only person on the Island that can really understand him is Kate. She shares the same kind of painful past and they both feel so damn worthless.

Neither has ever experienced true peace or acceptance or sadly love. Everyone they ever loved abandoned them through death or rejection. They have been fighting the whole world for so long -- angry and lost -- but think about it...they are now in a place they can't run from. They are stuck with their demons and with someone who can recognize those demons in another soul.

They push each other and call each other on their crap....fight and come back for more. They make each other honest, the "I Never Game" was only a game for a few moments, then it turned raw and we watched them challenged each other to tell the truth and they put their baggage on the table; sharing it with someone for the first time. You could see the game change, you could read it in their faces, and you knew it was an intimate exchange -- soul to soul. It was a powerful moment. There has never been a Jack and Kate moment that equals it in the context of sheer human interaction. Josh and Evi put it all up there on the scene for us to see. A different kind of chemistry but just as elemental as the sexual chemistry in the kiss.

Is there useful dialogue like this on the Jater's thread? The couple of times I've been there, it's full of Sawyer bashing and Jack worship. I want to understand the dynamics without all the hate.

In the few times I've been there, I've seen more Sawyer bashing and Jack worship than I have analysis, but to fair, we'd probably have to visit the site regularly and read all the posts to know for sure. And I'm not willing to do that! LOL.

I hope to get time to watch the clips and think about some of the stuff that's going on in the episodes, but no promises. Lots on my plate this weekend.
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It does amaze me, however, how two large groups of people can see the exact same things and interpret then completely differently. The two kisses are the best example. How can the Skate kiss be either the hottest thing that ever was on tv and amazing chemisty or totally disgusting, reprehensible and vile? And how can the Jate kiss either be a sign of true love and full devotion or insanity and confusion?

It's as if one group sees white and calls it black and the other group sees black and calls it white. Perhaps that's the most amazing thing about the island: it renders entire groups of people around the world black/white color blind!:smile:

Afternoon all!

Okay, question time:

Although these scenarios will probably never grace our screens, what is your ultimate Skate fantasy scene?

Mines:

Sawyer painting Kate's toes. Yes, I know...kind of kinky, but c'mon, we all know Sawyer's a freak. It would be right up his alley. Oh, and if we got a quick toe kiss much to a giggling Kate's delight...perfection.

In the few times I've been there, I've seen more Sawyer bashing and Jack worship than I have analysis, but to fair, we'd probably have to visit the site regularly and read all the posts to know for sure. And I'm not willing to do that! LOL.

It does amaze me, however, how two large groups of people can see the exact same things and interpret then completely differently. The two kisses are the best example. How can the Skate kiss be either the hottest thing that ever was on tv and amazing chemisty or totally disgusting, reprehensible and vile? And how can the Jate kiss either be a sign of true love and full devotion or insanity and confusion?

It's as if one group sees white and calls it black and the other group sees black and calls it white. Perhaps that's the most amazing thing about the island: it renders entire groups of people around the world black/white color blind!:smile:

I recall in one of my few lurks on a Sawyer-bashing thread, someone saying something to the effect - and I'm paraphrasing here - I think Sawyer has a legion of very young female fans who feel threatened on some personal level by that "other guy" on the show who is keeping all the other actors from getting any screen time :rolleyes: - the idea of Sawyer is completely disgusting and even threw up a little bit in my mouth when he bribed Kate into kissing him. . .

That's the jist of it. I am often surprised at this thinking.

I recall in one of my few lurks on a Sawyer-bashing thread, someone saying something to the effect - and I'm paraphrasing here - I think Sawyer has a legion of very young female fans who feel threatened on some personal level by that "other guy" on the show who is keeping all the other actors from getting any screen time :rolleyes: - the idea of Sawyer is completely disgusting and even threw up a little bit in my mouth when he bribed Kate into kissing him. . .

That's the jist of it. I am often surprised at this thinking.

I'm :confused: What does that even mean?

I'm :confused: What does that even mean?

Sorry - my paraphrasing is confusing. On a Sawyer-bashing thread, someone was speculating that Sawyer fans are mostly young (I remember the word "legion") and that Skaters complain how Sawyer gets less screentime, and whoever it was posting thought Sawyer was disgusting (I remember the throw-up part) and that the Skate kiss was only a bribe.

I'm fine with people having differing opinions, but the extreme difference is confusing to me.

Sorry - my paraphrasing is confusing. On a Sawyer-bashing thread, someone was speculating that Sawyer fans are mostly young (I remember the word "legion") and that Skaters complain how Sawyer gets less screentime, and whoever it was posting thought Sawyer was disgusting (I remember the throw-up part) and that the Skate kiss was only a bribe.

I'm fine with people having differing opinions, but the extreme difference is confusing to me.

I don't think I've ever read a post (not saying there hasn't been any) where the "legions" of Sawyer fans complained about his screen time. They may have complained about what was involved when he was on screen, but not the amount of time he's actually been on.

Who knows, chile. :rolleyes:

I'm still in the "Anthony Cooper is Mr. Sawyer" camp myself, girlspy. The repercussions of THAT, if true, will be nuclear-bomb level! :eek:

Hummmm. . .it STILL isn't even AUGUST yet, much less October! :crybaby:

I don't think I've ever read a post (not saying there hasn't been any) where the "legions" of Sawyer fans complained about his screen time. They may have complained about what was involved when he was on screen, but not the amount of time he's actually been on.

Who knows, chile. :rolleyes:

I was thinking more about the part about Sawyer being disgusting (the throw-up part) and that the Skate kiss was only a bribe.
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Have y'all seen this????????!

http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,19621,00.html?fdnews

eta - the link!!

I was thinking more about the part about Sawyer being disgusting (the throw-up part) and that the Skate kiss was only a bribe.

Oh, yeah. That.

To each his or her own. Pretty melodramatic, though.

ETA: Yeah, Jo, I read that yesterday, I believe.

I recall in one of my few lurks on a Sawyer-bashing thread, someone saying something to the effect - and I'm paraphrasing here - I think Sawyer has a legion of very young female fans who feel threatened on some personal level by that "other guy" on the show who is keeping all the other actors from getting any screen time :rolleyes: - the idea of Sawyer is completely disgusting and even threw up a little bit in my mouth when he bribed Kate into kissing him. . .

That's the jist of it. I am often surprised at this thinking.

Oh yes, the old Sawyer is disgusting and the kiss only happened because Kate was forced or bribed into it. Different strokes for different folks. I don't find Sawyer disgusting in the least and this whole Skate kiss bribe thing, well sure it did start out like that, but it quickly turned into something completely different.

Guys... If we don't bash the bashers, then maybe they won't bash us... that was taken care of by a mod. If you see more of it, report and ignore it.

Thank you!

I'm still in the "Anthony Cooper is Mr. Sawyer" camp myself, girlspy. The repercussions of THAT, if true, will be nuclear-bomb level! :eek:


Hehe, yeah Save The Humans, I think I like that theory too. So I guess the issue if its ever adressed again, will depend on whether Cooper is still alive and whether or not Sawyer will meet him. And if he doesnt hell probably take it out on Locke ;). Hehe.

Have y'all seen this????????!

http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,...00.html?fdnews

eta - the link!!

Hua, thanks for the link Joe. Things are lookin good in camp skate. ;)

Okay kids, incase your bored from all the debate or just want to mix it up, I got chapters 11 &12 done of my fan fict Broken Halves. Sorry for the long wait and I know I said Id wait to post till it was all done, but I think breaking it up into 2 parts will work better. Plus theres so much going on that I dont want to overwhelm people. So anyway, heres the link...

http://z11.invisionfree.com/Fuselage_Fiction/index.php?showtopic=72

Enjoy. :D

Im really really gonna try to have the rest of it done by sometime this week. Dont want to leave people hanging anymore. :)

Have y'all seen this????????!

http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,...00.html?fdnews

eta - the link!! I don't dare read things like this or my heart starts to go into fibrillation!

What fantasy would I have for Kate and Sawyer? I really would like to see them having another wonderful playful moment like the Waterfall Swimming scene. Where their joie de vivre just shines through.
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As for the two sides of this triangle, the only thing we can know for absolute certain is that half the audience who ships is going to feel shipwrecked when Kate makes her choice.
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Thanks to lisagwilkins and girlspy15 for the welcome. I doubt I'll post frequently, but it's nice to be acknowledged.

I'm loving the dialogue here. Things go way deeper than they appear on the surface. Is there useful dialogue like this on the Jater's thread? The couple of times I've been there, it's full of Sawyer bashing and Jack worship. I want to understand the dynamics without all the hate.
Like everywhere else, the conversation ebbs and flows. I only joined recently, so I can't speak for months-old conversations. While there will always be a spectrum of partisanship and therefore a range of topics up for debate, quite a number of posts lately have been, in my estimation, superb. While some have centered on the S2 progression of Jate, we've mainly been having our hands full with the latest S3 spoilers and a spirited discussion of Kate's individual progression as a character.

My favorite posters tend to be those who frequent both the Jack/Kate and JuSt boards. They tend to have a more balanced viewpoint that speaks to my own opinions; that is not to say, of course, that the good posts are limited to those who like both Jack and Sawyer, nor is it correct to say that all posts by Jate/JuSt posters are phenomenal. I've simply found a high correlation. You'll find moderation and extremism in any 'ship, and stereotyping tends to perpetuate reactive stereotypes; I've found, however, that the conversation always improves when you engage those whom you find capable of converging intelligently in the middle-ground.

It does amaze me, however, how two large groups of people can see the exact same things and interpret then completely differently. The two kisses are the best example. How can the Skate kiss be either the hottest thing that ever was on tv and amazing chemisty or totally disgusting, reprehensible and vile? And how can the Jate kiss either be a sign of true love and full devotion or insanity and confusion?

It's as if one group sees white and calls it black and the other group sees black and calls it white. Perhaps that's the most amazing thing about the island: it renders entire groups of people around the world black/white color blind!:smile:
You're not alone in wondering how this happens.

That's all from me for now. Ta, Skaters :)

Okay, and I thought Id toss out another discussion question for you all. This is a hypothetical question. But assuming Sawyer is still looking for the real Sawyer what do you think he would do if he found him? What influence would Kate have on his decision?


Don't think I'm great at answering these tough questions Girlspy, but I'll give it a go -
I think Sawyer's actions on finding the man he has been hunting for such a lengthy time would actually depend on the circumstances involved. I think he may think twice about pulling the trigger after what happened when he discovered that he didn't shoot the real Sawyer when in Australia. He may well put the guy through some hell first making him think he won't get away with his life, but I can also see him letting him go in the end & in that way, finding some kind of peace & closing that chapter of this life. Kate may indirectly have caused him to reach that decision in that she gives him another reason for living doesn't she? His life is not just about seeking revenge anymore, there's a much better reason to help him carry on & try to get over the trauma of his childhood ;)
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Afternoon all!

Okay, question time:

Although these scenarios will probably never grace our screens, what is your ultimate Skate fantasy scene?

Mines:

Sawyer painting Kate's toes. Yes, I know...kind of kinky, but c'mon, we all know Sawyer's a freak. It would be right up his alley. Oh, and if we got a quick toe kiss much to a giggling Kate's delight...perfection.

Gosh, I really hope a great 'fantasy' scene does end up on our screens, I like your scenario Darbi, can just see it being played out, am sure Sawyer - and Kate - would love it! Hmmm, I'll have to think about what I'd really like to happen & get back to you on that later :undecide:

Hope your interview went well Muchacha :biggrin:

Excellent news Joemamaah, thanks for posting that link - we can always hope for the best now :happy_bounce:

I recall in one of my few lurks on a Sawyer-bashing thread, someone saying something to the effect - and I'm paraphrasing here - I think Sawyer has a legion of very young female fans who feel threatened on some personal level by that "other guy" on the show who is keeping all the other actors from getting any screen time :rolleyes: - the idea of Sawyer is completely disgusting and even threw up a little bit in my mouth when he bribed Kate into kissing him. . .

That's the jist of it. I am often surprised at this thinking.

:shesaid:

That was pretty much exactly what was said. IMO anyone who watches that scene and can't see that Kate is an equal participant in that kiss is living in Fantasyland. Yes, it was forced on her (but let's remember she did think it over and say "okay"). But that hardly explains why she went back for thirds. Come on, that scene was shot really well and really close up and personal -- we can all clearly see her open her mouth and let Sawyer in...sorry you can't actually see it any other way and we do HAVE pictures (and sound) LOL!

Hey Midnight,

did ya see this?

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=19602
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:shesaid:

we can all clearly see her open her mouth and let Sawyer in..
mmmmmmm



.

Hey Midnight,

did ya see this?

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=19602

:13: That's great news, looks like voting is possible again & Skate are catching up, yippee :69:- anyone who couldn't vote before, go to the above again please!
I was actually posting a few messages over there recently - I had to reply to some of the pro-Jate posts & put in an argument for Skate - but never noticed the change so thanks for pointing it out Joemamaah! :flower:

Great updates to your fic Girlspy - can't wait for the next instalment!

I recall in one of my few lurks on a Sawyer-bashing thread, someone saying something to the effect - and I'm paraphrasing here - I think Sawyer has a legion of very young female fans who feel threatened on some personal level by that "other guy" on the show who is keeping all the other actors from getting any screen time :rolleyes: - the idea of Sawyer is completely disgusting and even threw up a little bit in my mouth when he bribed Kate into kissing him. . .

That's the jist of it. I am often surprised at this thinking.

ok i can speak for many here when i say i'm not threatened by Jack nor am i a little girl, but i do think this person got enough publicy for these comments so i hope mines the last word on it.

I'm still in the "Anthony Cooper is Mr. Sawyer" camp myself, girlspy. The repercussions of THAT, if true, will be nuclear-bomb level! :eek:

Hummmm. . .it STILL isn't even AUGUST yet, much less October! :crybaby:

I'm with you there STH i've had that theory for awhile, wouldn't that be a hell of a revelation.

and girlspy i guess you and i can relate a bit on that level sadly. But to lighten things up i can't wait to read your latest chapters :biggrin: i updated mine btw

Luanne is that Jeff Buckley on your avi? it looks like him but i'm not sure.

oh and everblue you are right about the Jate thread they do have good discssions over there but like both ships it occasionally divolves. I think we for the most part respect eachother though.

As for the questions i have to think on those i'll get back to them later.

Luanne is that Jeff Buckley on your avi? it looks like him but i'm not sure.


Fricks

You are queen for the day for knowing that is Jeff Buckley. I am always suprised when ppl know him.

Fricks

You are queen for the day for knowing that is Jeff Buckley. I am always suprised when ppl know him.

I like alot of his songs, so i'm definatly familar with him. Very tragic that one. Glad to see you back around here again btw :biggrin: you've been missed

And we are all just dandy darbi btw great thoughts in that PM girl :biggrin: you are a genius.

Aw, thanks. We'll have to wait and see if that's indeed true, or not.

:shesaid:

That was pretty much exactly what was said. IMO anyone who watches that scene and can't see that Kate is an equal participant in that kiss is living in Fantasyland.

OK, here's the thing - you can disagree with people all you want, but bashing them because they don't share your opinion? Don't do it!

Fricks

You are queen for the day for knowing that is Jeff Buckley. I am always suprised when ppl know him.

:wub: Love him and there is a Skate video out there using his music that is perfect!

But assuming Sawyer is still looking for the real Sawyer what do you think he would do if he found him? What influence would Kate have on his decision?

Oh goodness Jaci that's a good question. I think if she would be there, he wouldn't kill him, assuming that he's not already dead. I think Kate's influence on him at that time, if it ever came, would be so great that it would keep him from killing the real Sawyer. I also think that it could be that when it ever comes to that point, she may have made him realize that he doesn't need to keep up this search and could have even gotten to the point where he's let it go.

It's doubtful, but I'm hoping eventually she can get him to that point.

They make each other honest, the "I Never Game" was only a game for a few moments, then it turned raw and we watched them challenged each other to tell the truth and they put their baggage on the table; sharing it with someone for the first time. You could see the game change, you could read it in their faces, and you knew it was an intimate exchange -- soul to soul. It was a powerful moment.

Well since we're talking about the "I NEVER" game, how about some script notes on that...

here you go...

KATE:
I never blamed a boar for all my problems.
okay, now it's getting personal. Yet Sawyer drinks. Fires back.

SAWYER:
I never cared about having carte blanche 'cause I just wanted to spend sometime with the only other person on this who just don't belong.
On KATE. And that flass of VULNERABILITY. Yea -- He f***king nailed her. But she meets his gaze. Take a drink. And fires right back:
KATE:
I never carried a letter around for twenty years because I couldn't get over my baggage.
And Sawyer goes cold. Locks that stare into her. But drinks. Hold the star for a beat, then:
SAWYER:
I never killed a man.
And there it is. After all this time. The handcuffs. The marshall. The case. The guns. It doesn't matter when or how he found out, but he KNOWS. He looks at her, for a reaction. SEES a flash of intense vulnerability, then covers it. She doesn't want to give him the f***ing satisfaction.

And she drinks.

ON SAWYER. Not as surprised as we might expect him to be, but what is surprising...

Is that Sawyer drinks TOO. Drains his whole mini-bottle. And when he's done --

SAWYER:
Well, looks like we gont something in common after all.
And OFF this dark tableau --

CUT TO BLACK.


Afternoon all!

Okay, question time:

Although these scenarios will probably never grace our screens, what is your ultimate Skate fantasy scene?

Mines:

Sawyer painting Kate's toes. Yes, I know...kind of kinky, but c'mon, we all know Sawyer's a freak. It would be right up his alley. Oh, and if we got a quick toe kiss much to a giggling Kate's delight...perfection.

Oooooh now I have something dream about...

Okay kids, incase your bored from all the debate or just want to mix it up, I got chapters 11 &12 done of my fan fict Broken Halves. Sorry for the long wait and I know I said Id wait to post till it was all done, but I think breaking it up into 2 parts will work better. Plus theres so much going on that I dont want to overwhelm people. So anyway, heres the link...

http://z11.invisionfree.com/Fuselage_Fiction/index.php?showtopic=72

Enjoy. :D

Im really really gonna try to have the rest of it done by sometime this week. Dont want to leave people hanging anymore. :)

I haven't had the chance to read it yet Jaci, but I will for sure...you know I love your stories.

Come on, that scene was shot really well and really close up and personal -- we can all clearly see her open her mouth and let Sawyer in...sorry you can't actually see it any other way and we do HAVE pictures (and sound) LOL!

yea and I so love the, uh, sound...hehehehe

Aw, thanks. We'll have to wait and see if that's indeed true, or not.

Your thoughts were excellent Darbi...I plan to respond.

Huggs y'all,
Lisa

*off to read GS's story*

lisa darlin, thanks for posting that Outlaws script. It gives so much insight into a simply marvelous scene. I love it caust it show them sharing information in a relaxed environment and just connecting on a solid level. And while many things they share in common are sad, it dosen't meam that's a bad thing for them. The fact that they do know about eachother means they won't put up with the crap. Sometimes the ability too call eachother out and not worry about hurting the others feelings is a very good thing, we all need someone like that in our lives sometimes as everblue pointed out.

As far as the question...
But assuming Sawyer is still looking for the real Sawyer what do you think he would do if he found him? What influence would Kate have on his decision?

Coming face to face with the 'real' Sawyer or finding out that he's already dead would a watershed moment. He's been searching for this his whole life. The means he thinks will end his suffering. And the ironic thing about it is that Kate of all people knows that killing someone who hurt you dosen't take it away, cause that pain will still be there afterwards. It only goes away if you decide to let it stop hurting you. I would hope that he would come to terms with it in that sense. It's something he needs to address. And to face the fact that that man wasn't the one that actually hurt him. Only when he can accept that wil he be able to move on in any sense. I would hope he wouldn't kill him, take a better path than the path of vengeance. This is something that Kate can help him with, she might have already. And she may be his new reason for iving now but he lhas to learn to live for himself too, and most importantly to forgive himself, and eventually others as well.

Oh wow, Fricksgurl, now you have me thinking of a wonderful Skate scene where Kate actually talks about Wayne, and what she did and tells Sawyer how killing him didn't solve all of her problems. Can you imagine that conversation? The intensity of it? It would show Sawyer that she gets him more than he knows. He thought she was only pitying him, but really, she DOES know what it's like to want to kill someone in order to ease some inner pain. It doesn't make it right, but yeah I can see how her experience and her opening up about it could help him deal with his own demons.

And I just wanted to add my 2 cents in with fricks about childhood trauma. Shes right, it sticks with you, especially cause your so impressionable at a young age. I know second hand the effects of suicide in the family. Its not something to be taken lightly. You cant ever get over something like that. And with Sawyer, he lost both his parents. Thats every childs worst nightmare. Most parents give their children a sense of security and to have that torn away, so suddenly, and so violently--hes not gonna get over that easily. I dont think Sawyer will ever fully get over it, the most we can hope for is he can try to forgive himself. :(
Yes, and going back to what the woman on the radio said... she didn't specify how here parents died, yet she felt resentment towards them in a big way. Imagine how it must feel to know that your father chose to kill the mother and himself... and very probably would have killed James, too. :frown:

Okay, and I thought Id toss out another discussion question for you all. This is a hypothetical question. But assuming Sawyer is still looking for the real Sawyer what do you think he would do if he found him? What influence would Kate have on his decision?
Yikes, this is a hard one. On one hand i think it would be extremely difficult for James to stop looking for Sawyer entirely. He's probably pretty certain that he could kill him... he almost killed the guy he thought was Sawyer, after all, but i do agree that he might give it a second thought now. I would like to think that with Kate's help he could move past this entirely, but i guess i'm not sure what he would do. I think that if he got together with a woman for real (instead of as part of a con), one that he is honest with and chooses to change for if need be--Kate more specifically and hopefully--that he could eventually heal in a manner of speaking. The scars would always be there, but maybe he could finally have a life. Of course Josh doesn't want Sawyer to ever lose his edge, so who knows if it will happen, but i was so happy in THP that is was Sawyer who was fiercely protective of Kate towards Zeke.

It feels weird to call Sawyer James... i imagine his mother calling him Jimmy.

Although these scenarios will probably never grace our screens, what is your ultimate Skate fantasy scene?
Hmm... at the moment all that comes to mind is Sawyer crying in Kate's arms. Very strange. :drowsy: :confused:

I don't think I've ever read a post (not saying there hasn't been any) where the "legions" of Sawyer fans complained about his screen time. They may have complained about what was involved when he was on screen, but not the amount of time he's actually been on.
i think that Sawyer's become one of the three most important characters on the show. What i mean to say is... on TNG there was a comment by Marina Sirtis i believe that she obviously wasn't one of the three main characters of the show which led me to wonder who the third main character was. Picard and Data are very obviously the first and second, everyone else was featured equally. On Lost at the beginning the main three were Jack, Kate, and Charlie (look at the s1 case, for example) but it didn't take long for Charlie to be replaced with Sawyer as the stronger and more important character. Now originally this made sense for a strong character (Dom had just come off the success of LotR, i don't think i've seen Josh in anything but a super small part on NCIS) but now Sawyer gets featured a LOT more than Charlie. i would not complain about Sawyer's amount of screen time at all.

I'm still in the "Anthony Cooper is Mr. Sawyer" camp myself, girlspy. The repercussions of THAT, if true, will be nuclear-bomb level! :eek:
i've always supported that theory myself... :)

Guys... If we don't bash the bashers, then maybe they won't bash us... that was taken care of by a mod. If you see more of it, report and ignore it.

Thank you!
There's bashing going on around here? :confused: i thought we were having a pleasant discussion. Sometimes the truth hurts, but it doesn't make things better to lie about it.

Yes, it was forced on her (but let's remember she did think it over and say "okay"). But that hardly explains why she went back for thirds. Come on, that scene was shot really well and really close up and personal -- we can all clearly see her open her mouth and let Sawyer in...sorry you can't actually see it any other way and we do HAVE pictures (and sound) LOL!
Not to mention the fact that she could have broken it off at any time! He was kind of tied up.

anyone who couldn't vote before, go to the above again please!
i still can't vote :frown: it says i already have

last but not least, i got the job, which is a huge relief! It should work out perfectly with my college schedule, pay more, and be less exhausting. i start the day after i get back from vacation. :biggrin:

Muchacha
who is very glad to be living in fantasyland (it's the only reason life's worth living) but who wishes she was on the Island instead of dreaming about it
100%
p.s. great idea Zoriah!

Oh wow, Fricksgurl, now you have me thinking of a wonderful Skate scene where Kate actually talks about Wayne, and what she did and tells Sawyer how killing him didn't solve all of her problems. Can you imagine that conversation? The intensity of it? It would show Sawyer that she gets him more than he knows. He thought she was only pitying him, but really, she DOES know what it's like to want to kill someone in order to ease some inner pain. It doesn't make it right, but yeah I can see how her experience and her opening up about it could help him deal with his own demons.

oh Zoriah i get heart palpatations thinking about the possibility of a scene like that. It would be beautiful in so many ways. Truly a watershed, canon moment... And the intensity, through the roof is all i can say. A scene like that could win a show an Emmy IMO

Not to mention the fact that she could have broken it off at any time! He was kind of tied up.



you bring up great point Muchada it's not like he could make her stay or anything. Kind of hard to apply force when you can't move..

ok now i'm going to bed LOL

Fricks

You are queen for the day for knowing that is Jeff Buckley. I am always suprised when ppl know him.

I loved "Hallelujah" way before Shrek used it. I used to live near the Wolf River where he drowned.

A scene like that could win a show an Emmy IMO
This gives me hope for Skate for the first time in a long time. The culmination of the relationship in Jate would give a lot of fans great happiness, but I don't think it's Emmy-worthy. But the Skate relationship does have that potential. I'm sure TPTB want the show to follow its story arc etc. etc., but they also have to want the prestige of an Emmy. It gives everyone, the writers, produces, actors etc. much more cachet for future projects. So, even if Jate is allegedly fated, it is possible they are reconsidering it in light of what is best for ratings, awards etc. It's not like TPTB actually care about the lives of the characters per se. It's Hollywood (or at least TV-wood) and their own careers, ability to make money, leverage projects etc. is what really counts--not the happiness or unhappiness of a fictional surgeon, murderess and con man.
100%
I loved "Hallelujah" way before Shrek used it I loved it when it was the original Leonard Cohen song!

This gives me hope for Skate for the first time in a long time. The culmination of the relationship in Jate would give a lot of fans great happiness, but I don't think it's Emmy-worthy. But the Skate relationship does have that potential. I'm sure TPTB want the show to follow its story arc etc. etc., but they also have to want the prestige of an Emmy. It gives everyone, the writers, produces, actors etc. much more cachet for future projects. So, even if Jate is allegedly fated, it is possible they are reconsidering it in light of what is best for ratings, awards etc. It's not like TPTB actually care about the lives of the characters per se. It's Hollywood (or at least TV-wood) and their own careers, ability to make money, leverage projects etc. is what really counts--not the happiness or unhappiness of a fictional surgeon, murderess and con man.

Oooh, I hope you're right Perdue, I really do :biggrin: 'cos you are right in the fact that a Skate relationship would have much more going for it in the way of Emmy-winning potential!

Muchacha - Congratulations on getting the job! I'm not sure why you can't vote on that poll, unless there's a chance you already did vote in the past?? Is a pity you can't vote now anyway, 'cos it was 50/50 last night and now Jate are 3 votes ahead again :shakehead:
Here's the link again if anyone else wants to vote anyway:

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/...ad.php?t=19602 (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=19602)

Coming face to face with the 'real' Sawyer or finding out that he's already dead would a watershed moment. He's been searching for this his whole life. The means he thinks will end his suffering. And the ironic thing about it is that Kate of all people knows that killing someone who hurt you doesn't take it away, cause that pain will still be there afterwards. It only goes away if you decide to let it stop hurting you. I would hope that he would come to terms with it in that sense. It's something he needs to address. And to face the fact that that man wasn't the one that actually hurt him. Only when he can accept that wil he be able to move on in any sense. I would hope he wouldn't kill him, take a better path than the path of vengeance. This is something that Kate can help him with, she might have already. And she may be his new reason for iving now but he has to learn to live for himself too, and most importantly to forgive himself, and eventually others as well.

:crush: That was so beautifully written that I can only say that this is what I think we Skaters dream of ... seeing Sawyer finally face his demons and with Kate's help let go of his desire for revenge. You are so right, she knows what acting on revenge gets you and it sure isn't peace, more like endless regret. Revenge destroys and Kate knows it. I hope she can help Sawyer with that insight but you are right; it is his journey and the final step must be his too. I just want so much for her to be there, to be able to take him in her arms in the aftermath of what is going to be an extremely painful emotional experience for him! He will need her then and I honestly fear for his survival if she isn't there. Sawyer is capable of great self-destruction and could go there, easily, without a reason not to! She will be his reason, the life he could have with her.

:rolleyes: Darbi: OK, could you please just send TPTB that suggestion? I really want to see Sawyer polishing Kate toes.....and then kissing them, so Sawyer, so Skate, so cute and with their chemistry, potentially so hot!

Okay, question time:

Although these scenarios will probably never grace our screens, what is your ultimate Skate fantasy scene?

I have two - firstly the intense one - Kate telling Sawyer about Wayne & him giving her all his support in return which in turn brings them closer together :3:
Secondly, my simple wish - that we see Sawyer & Kate walking hand in hand down the beach someday :sweety:
In addition - I like all the other fantasies posted, so they are now included in mine too :biggrin:

Lisa - I loved reading your post on the 'I Never' game, I totally loved that scene, it's up there with my favourites :5:

It feels weird to call Sawyer James
I can't imagine NOT calling him James. Since I learned it was his real name (back in Season 1), that's what I've been calling him. It's his name, ya know?

I went and voted for Skate. I feel that, on the Island, either match could work; but once they are back in the Real World (and that IS how it's supposed to end, ya know), only one of those matchups could work out. Besides, I've always enjoyed the Kate/James scenes better. (I :heart: your avi, MSF!)

STILL no new "Battlefield Revisited"? :crybaby:

I went and voted for Skate. I feel that, on the Island, either match could work; but once they are back in the Real World (and that IS how it's supposed to end, ya know), only one of those matchups could work out. Besides, I've always enjoyed the Kate/James scenes better. (I :heart: your avi, MSF!)

Thanks STH for voting (doesn't take much to make me happy!) Glad you like the avi too :) - think I might add a reply to his question "9mm, rifle, or ME?" - answer: "Do you have to ask?!" :in_love:

Okay guys, I have a question for ya, and it's not really meant to be depressing but it's good for us to really think about where the writers might be going with our fave characters and what is feasible in a dramatic story telling way so...

Putting this in spoiler font just to be safe:

If, for whatever reason, TPTB are bringing in this Juliet (Elizabeth Mitchell) character to have the hots for Jack and force Kate into choosing Jack...where does this leave our Sawyer?

Think about it. I have read in other threads and forums that fans believe Sawyer is being phased out of any triangle status to be merely Kate's friend, and form this new triangle centred firmly on Jack's character.

Shipwise this could be interesting (if you don't ship Skate), but storywise...how does that keep Sawyer in the game?

TPTB are surely well aware of Sawyer's popularity as a character, and especially as part of a very hot triangle. They've seen all the polls, the awards, the media and fan buzz. They know that Sawyer is a top player in the show, especially as a romantic interest.

So, I personally, do not see the writers or PTB totally taking Sawyer out of the equation, and not giving him anyone to relate to or develop a deep bond with/or to be more shallow 'hook up' with. Can you?

I can see them trying to find a better fit as a romantic interest for Foxy's Jack character, since he's the heroic lead and well, he should get some action, but even if Kate didn't choose him, he'd still have much to do and work with in terms of the larger stories of the island and mytharc. Sawyer on the other hand is very linked to Kate, and how she's gotten into his head and seen his soft underbelly. Who else can get through his outcast/bad man posturing?

I just don't see how TPTB could be planning to let Sawyer completely get the shaft and move focus towards a new Jack-centred triangle unless they have other plans for him that will keep him as a major player, and viable romantic possibility. Any ideas of what that might be, or is it just too silly to contemplate the writers/PTB that being that stupid in not utilising Josh enough?


ETA: Did I break the forum posting that? :eek:

:crush: That was so beautifully written that I can only say that this is what I think we Skaters dream of ... seeing Sawyer finally face his demons and with Kate's help let go of his desire for revenge. You are so right, she knows what acting on revenge gets you and it sure isn't peace, more like endless regret. Revenge destroys and Kate knows it. I hope she can help Sawyer with that insight but you are right; it is his journey and the final step must be his too. I just want so much for her to be there, to be able to take him in her arms in the aftermath of what is going to be an extremely painful emotional experience for him! He will need her then and I honestly fear for his survival if she isn't there. Sawyer is capable of great self-destruction and could go there, easily, without a reason not to! She will be his reason, the life he could have with her.



welll said there :biggrin:

I think Kate will be there for him, but like we've said the final steps need to be his. You have to want to get better for yourself, not just for someone else. It's the only way it'll stick, it's like addiction you have to want it. He does want the redemption and forgivness but dosen't feel he deserves it. But i believe everyone does if they truly want it. What's needed is not someone to give you a hand up but someone to simply hold that hand, you need the be supported not carried in other words. And that i think she can do. Help him but not do it for him, be one of the reasons why but not the only one.

lisa darlin, thanks for posting that Outlaws script. It gives so much insight into a simply marvelous scene. I love it caust it show them sharing information in a relaxed environment and just connecting on a solid level. And while many things they share in common are sad, it dosen't meam that's a bad thing for them. The fact that they do know about eachother means they won't put up with the crap. Sometimes the ability too call eachother out and not worry about hurting the others feelings is a very good thing, we all need someone like that in our lives sometimes as everblue pointed out.

Aww thanks, Fricks...It's my pleasure to do so. I really love that scene and it's definately my favorite. So here's some more for you all...this is a scene that didn't make it into the show...


EXT. JUNGLE - LATE AFTERNOON

Kate and Sawyer trudge through the jungle -- DIRTY and SWEATY and on these two, somehow it looks GREAT, BREATHING HARD.

Kate stops, looks up at the sky. Frowns. Sawyer gets ahead before he realizes she's not beside him. He turns --

SAWYER:
What?
KATE:
Gonna be dark in half an hour.
SAWYER:
Then I guess we got half an hour to catch us that hog.
Kate shakes her head, pulls off her PACK --
KATE:
Suit yourself. (points) He went that way. I'm making camp while I can still see.
SAWYER:
What? You're just gonna let it away? How're we ---
KATE:
Boars sleep too.
ON SAWYER -- Frustrated, wanting to continue on...

But without his guide, he's completely helpless to do anything about it. As he drops his OWN PACK in frustration.

CLOSE ON A FIRE as a PIECE OF DRY WOOD kicks up a field of EMBERS as it's dropped into the flames. Kate settles down next to the fire, Sawyer on the opposite side. Two outlaws, camped out under ths stars. Hell if we didn't know any better? We'd think this was downright romantic.

Did y'all like that?

Okay here's something that losttvfan and I were talking about earlier. I've been giving some thought to the the JATE kiss vs. our SKATE kiss...and there is something I definately noticed.

It seems that when it comes to Kate and, in my opinion, everything else, there is a lack of passion when it comes to Jack. Jack doesn't not strike me as a passionate person and he certainly hasn't been passionate toward Kate. Also I think he's not a happy person. So when I look at the two kisses, I see the passion that the SKATE kiss had but I don't see that with the Jate kiss...even my mother who is 74 and has macular degeneration in her eyes, still tells me that the Jate kiss was nothing...

So since I don't see the passion there, then I wonder what exactly do I see. I see fear on Kate's part and confusion on Jack's but I don't see passion. I do see the passion in Sawyer. Sawyer is the type of person who's passionate about the things that matter to him. I just don't see that with Jack...

So what do ya'll think?

Huggs,
Lisa

I think I want the next chapter of "Battlefield Revisited," Lisa! :laughing:

I also think it's high time that the October 4 - November 8 "miniseries" were running! How about you?

"Passionate" is a very descriptive word for both James and Kate--in ALL aspects of their lives, not just the romantic/sexual parts!

I'm not sure if it's a lack of passion or it's just that Jack dosen't show too much emotionally alot of the time. He can come off as bit cold on occasion. Probably has alot to with how he was raised. I really think Kate took him by surprise there and he didn't really know how to react to it. It obviously had an effect, which might have been kind of overwhelming for someone whose used to being emotionally detached. His reaction was one of someone who allowed himself to feel something and then when she ran away was terribly hurt by it cause he let her in in a sense.

I think Sawyer feels things in a different way, he tries to detach emotionally as well but when he allows himself to feel things like hate and love he feels them very strongly, almost the way a kid does before they learn to temper it. So when it gets trhough the wall he puts up it's almost overwhelming to him and he feels he has to back away from it. Kate brought strong feelings out of him for once and it's very frightening for him.

Okay guys, I have a question for ya, and it's not really meant to be depressing but it's good for us to really think about where the writers might be going with our fave characters and what is feasible in a dramatic story telling way so...

Putting this in spoiler font just to be safe:

If, for whatever reason, TPTB are bringing in this Juliet (Elizabeth Mitchell) character to have the hots for Jack and force Kate into choosing Jack...where does this leave our Sawyer?

Think about it. I have read in other threads and forums that fans believe Sawyer is being phased out of any triangle status to be merely Kate's friend, and form this new triangle centred firmly on Jack's character.

Shipwise this could be interesting (if you don't ship Skate), but storywise...how does that keep Sawyer in the game?

TPTB are surely well aware of Sawyer's popularity as a character, and especially as part of a very hot triangle. They've seen all the polls, the awards, the media and fan buzz. They know that Sawyer is a top player in the show, especially as a romantic interest.

So, I personally, do not see the writers or PTB totally taking Sawyer out of the equation, and not giving him anyone to relate to or develop a deep bond with/or to be more shallow 'hook up' with. Can you?

I can see them trying to find a better fit as a romantic interest for Foxy's Jack character, since he's the heroic lead and well, he should get some action, but even if Kate didn't choose him, he'd still have much to do and work with in terms of the larger stories of the island and mytharc. Sawyer on the other hand is very linked to Kate, and how she's gotten into his head and seen his soft underbelly. Who else can get through his outcast/bad man posturing?

I just don't see how TPTB could be planning to let Sawyer completely get the shaft and move focus towards a new Jack-centred triangle unless they have other plans for him that will keep him as a major player, and viable romantic possibility. Any ideas of what that might be, or is it just too silly to contemplate the writers/PTB that being that stupid in not utilising Josh enough?


ETA: Did I break the forum posting that? :eek:



If TBTP were to chose this route, which I seriously doubt they will, I see this being a good thing for Sawyer. For past two seasons, I've been hoping that Sawyer will take a more active role within the camp, and not just as a agitative figure, testing everyone's patient, but as a central, decision making figure.

My fervent hope is he will begin to interact with other characters more often like Sayid, Locke, Mr. Eko, Jin/Sun, and apparently since Desmond will be around this season, I think those two could make for some interesting, hilarious exchanges. ;)

Even if Kate were to choose Sawyer, I'd still want this for him. Yes, he does have a strong connection to Kate, but, like Kate, he needs to take a more proactive role in the islands affairs without being prompted to do so. He and Kate make a good team...and that could be beneficial to the camp.

If Kate were to choose Jack, I don't believe this alters the interactions between Sawyer and Kate at all. If Sawyer's taking a more active role within the camp, they're still going to be around one another all the time. Their chemistry isn't going anywhere. Nor are the writers going to allow it to just go to waste--it's simply too much tension to be ignored. I believe there would be an adjustment period on both their parts, which would come with some very mixed results. Come to think of it, Kate choosing Jack could make for some very interesting viewing when they realize neither is as accessible to the other as they're accustomed to.

Either way, no, I don't think this take Sawyer out of the triangle at all. I think it simple shifts things around...makes everyone see things with a new perspective.

If TBTP were to chose this route, which I seriously doubt they will, I see this being a good thing for Sawyer. For past two seasons, I've been hoping that Sawyer will take a more active role within the camp, and not just as a agitative figure, testing everyone's patient, but as a central, decision making figure.

My fervent hope is he will begin to interact with other characters more often like Sayid, Locke, Mr. Eko, Jin/Sun, and apparently since Desmond will be around this season, I think those two could make for some interesting, hilarious exchanges. ;)

Even if Kate were to choose Sawyer, I'd still want this for him. Yes, he does have a strong connection to Kate, but, like Kate, he needs to take a more proactive role in the islands affairs without being prompted to do so. He and Kate make a good team...and that could be beneficial to the camp.

If Kate were to choose Jack, I don't believe this alters the interactions between Sawyer and Kate at all. If Sawyer's taking a more active role within the camp, they're still going to be around one another all the time. Their chemistry isn't going anywhere. Nor are the writers going to allow it to just go to waste--it's simply too much tension to be ignored. I believe there would be an adjustment period on both their parts, which would come with some very mixed results. Come to think of it, Kate choosing Jack could make for some very interesting viewing when they realize neither is as accessible to the other as they're accustomed to.

Either way, no, I don't think this take Sawyer out of the triangle at all. I think it simple shifts things around...makes everyone see things with a new perspective.


Thanks for replying Darbi and giving my question some thought. To be honest, I really want Sawyer to continue to grow and be an important part of the story regardless of how the triangle issue plays out. If the writers can compensate shifting the focus a bit, I will remain engaged and happy with developments to some extent. Even though I don't see the chemisty in J/K, nor what Jack can really offer Kate realistically that is so much 'better' than Sawyer. Why should Jack deserve the girl and Sawyer not? How can Jack help Kate with her serious issues of self esteem with his fixation on saving/fixing people? It's only natural for us to want both Kate and Sawyer to find happiness and some kind of validation, and preferably with each other.

The fact that Sawyer has already admitted he loves Kate (even though he was unconscious at the time) is not something we should dismiss. This is big. The conman in love with a girl he is resigned to not being able to get. I do believe that whichever Kate chooses eventually, she will always be a huge part of Sawyer's life on the island, regardless. We need to remember this is happening over weeks, not years like for us viewers. That is why, while some people may want to see Sawyer develop his character completely independently of Kate's influence, I don't think it's really possible in the scheme of things and on the timeline they are on right now.

Sawyer got completely broadsided by Kate, even while he was trying to self protect and remain aloof. It's not something that's just going to go away.

I don't think they've dislosed that yet Muchada who knows though it could be relevant.

Uh, just show you know, it's "m u c h a c h a" as in "girl" in Spanish, exactly what Sawyer called Ana Lucia about one or two weeks after i chose the alias when registering here. The fact that i chose it, then Sawyer used it in an ep, just blows me away... very cool :eek2:

I can't imagine NOT calling him James. Since I learned it was his real name (back in Season 1), that's what I've been calling him. It's his name, ya know?

i just meant that it sounds very formal: a Bible name and no nickname for our beloved con man? Just seems a bit odd for the guy we know. And re: the poll, no i have not voted as far as i know... i don't think i went into a Jater thread when i was looking for the Skaters... :confused:

Also, there's a couple of acronyms that some are using that i don't know what they're supposed to mean in this context. i'm still pretty much a newbie to this board: dictionary please? :undecide:

But the discussion in the past few posts was so awesome that i feel like i have nothing to add. In other words, what they said. :biggrin:

Which acronyms, Muchacha?

Thanks for replying Darbi and giving my question some thought. To be honest, I really want Sawyer to continue to grow and be an important part of the story regardless of how the triangle issue plays out. If the writers can compensate shifting the focus a bit, I will remain engaged and happy with developments to some extent. Even though I don't see the chemisty in J/K, nor what Jack can really offer Kate realistically that is so much 'better' than Sawyer. Why should Jack deserve the girl and Sawyer not? How can Jack help Kate with her serious issues of self esteem with his fixation on saving/fixing people? It's only natural for us to want both Kate and Sawyer to find happiness and some kind of validation, and preferably with each other.

The fact that Sawyer has already admitted he loves Kate (even though he was unconscious at the time) is not something we should dismiss. This is big. The conman in love with a girl he is resigned to not being able to get. I do believe that whichever Kate chooses eventually, she will always be a huge part of Sawyer's life on the island, regardless. We need to remember this is happening over weeks, not years like for us viewers. That is why, while some people may want to see Sawyer develop his character completely independently of Kate's influence, I don't think it's really possible in the scheme of things and on the timeline they are on right now.

Sawyer got completely broadsided by Kate, even while he was trying to self protect and remain aloof. It's not something that's just going to go away.

that was just so well said there, your absolutly right on the money. :shesaid: There's has been too much development and there is too much unresolved for them to just shove him to the wayside. I really think part of his development has to do with his love for her, and the feeling that it might be unrequited, (although something tells me that's not the case here) And people do froget they've only been there about 2 and half months so it's not like you can turn a corner that abruptly so to speak. And Zoriah sorry i didn't answer the post, had to mull that one over and the more i think about it

the more i think it's wishful thinking on some peoples parts, I can't see them just throwing Sawyer out and adding a new person in, it just wouldn't make any sense really. There's gotta be a resolution even if it's just temporary, ie for this season. She should pick someone and none of this making a new triangle stuff.

Uh, just show you know, it's "m u c h a c h a" as in "girl" in Spanish, exactly what Sawyer called Ana Lucia about one or two weeks after i chose the alias when registering here. The fact that i chose it, then Sawyer used it in an ep, just blows me away... very cool :eek2:



heh sorry :redface: i'll remember that next time, but that is cool that he used that name...
and what acronysms are you talking about?

In regards to Zoriahs spoiler question...
the more i think it's wishful thinking on some peoples parts, I can't see them just throwing Sawyer out and adding a new person in, it just wouldn't make any sense really. There's gotta be a resolution even if it's just temporary, ie for this season. She should pick someone and none of this making a new triangle stuff.

Fricks, I agree with you, as usual ;)

The fact of the matter is that they've already tried two different love triangles with Jack and Kate. The first one involved Sawyer,and the second one involved Ana Lucia. If they were to bring this Juliette person in, merely to make Kate jealous, Id say they were beating a dead horse. Its already been done. How jealous was Kate when Jack was with Ana? Did it cause her to initiate anything different with him? She may have cleared the air about the kiss, but I dont think any new steps have been taken to progress their relationship further. From a writing standpoint, its been done before, and I just think its a bit repetetive. Plus it wouldnt bode very well for the Jate relationship if they needed to bring in another woman yet again to push them together. You just cant force chemistry. And Im convinced if that happens they wont last.

And thank you thank you Lisa for that I Never scene excerpt. It was a brilliantly written scene. And I also might add that Drew Goddard wrote that scene and that episode, and hes back on the show full time this season :). He wasnt there last season, so I think thats very good news for Skate. I highly doubt that they would toss their storyline to the wayside, no matter what. Its just too good to ignore.

Thanks for replying Darbi and giving my question some thought. To be honest, I really want Sawyer to continue to grow and be an important part of the story regardless of how the triangle issue plays out. If the writers can compensate shifting the focus a bit, I will remain engaged and happy with developments to some extent. Even though I don't see the chemisty in J/K, nor what Jack can really offer Kate realistically that is so much 'better' than Sawyer. Why should Jack deserve the girl and Sawyer not? How can Jack help Kate with her serious issues of self esteem with his fixation on saving/fixing people? It's only natural for us to want both Kate and Sawyer to find happiness and some kind of validation, and preferably with each other.

The fact that Sawyer has already admitted he loves Kate (even though he was unconscious at the time) is not something we should dismiss. This is big. The conman in love with a girl he is resigned to not being able to get. I do believe that whichever Kate chooses eventually, she will always be a huge part of Sawyer's life on the island, regardless. We need to remember this is happening over weeks, not years like for us viewers. That is why, while some people may want to see Sawyer develop his character completely independently of Kate's influence, I don't think it's really possible in the scheme of things and on the timeline they are on right now.

Sawyer got completely broadsided by Kate, even while he was trying to self protect and remain aloof. It's not something that's just going to go away.

I believe they blindsided each other, and they've been trying to recover from the collison ever since. :laughing:

A thought...



I find that the word "selection" in reference to Kate's decision quite interesting, like whomever she chooses has little or nothing to do with a romantic choice.

We have to keep in mind that regardless of what personal issues that may come up with these three are in captivity...the Sana incident, the Jate kiss...they are still being held captive. Escaping, a more pressing situation than who Kate's to become romantically involved with will be their primary concern.

It's entirely possible that Kate's decision is done in such a way where her silent "selection" contrasts her stated choice, and only Kate and the audience really knows why.

What little we know about the "Others" we do know that they are observers. I don't imagine they are going to not pick up on the tension between the three, nor are they likely to miss what's becoming increasingly obvious: Sawyer's love for Kate. It's possible that they would use those feelings for Kate against him. As it's been mentioned before, Sawyer has sacrified himself once before by leaving on the raft. Now, depending on what's revealed while their captive, Kate may come to realize Sawyer's true feelings, but to save him from further physical hurt, rejects him by choosing Jack. In a sense sacrificing what she wants in her heart with a heady decision. Of course, her choice wouldn't be completely altruistic, because she does care and have feelings for Jack and I would imagine she believes she's doing the right thing, or making a choice she feels she would have done eventually if given more time. The writers have been very careful with how they've crafted the triangle up until now, and I don't imagine that will be changing even after a decision is made.

Let's say for instance Kate does indeed choose Jack. For all intended purposes, the choice seems logical for her right now. We've seen her cut ties with Sawyer before, but, in that situation, neither thought they were going to see each other again. This time, they will both have to deal with the consequences of Kate's choice every single day. That in itself makes for potentially good drama, because where Jack withdrew from Kate after the kiss and there was very little conversation between the two unless Kate initiated it, and finally apologized after Jack decided to let her back in the loop. Sawyer's likely to be a lot more vocal or demonstrative of his displeasure in Kate's choice. The question is will he go about showing that displeasure with his usual pot shots at Kate behind her doctor/boyfriend, or snarky remarks to Jack allowing his jealousy to shine through?

I certainly hope that's not the case.


I'm sure Kate will diligently go about trying to make her relationship with Jack work, and hopefully Jack will do the same. I believe they owe it to one another to give it their best. However, Kate, and Jack to an extent will have to deal with Sawyer due to his mere presence within the camp---essentially keeping the triangle alive and well.

Just some thoughts...

Darbi great thoughts i had an interesting one of my own that relates to that.

i was speculating how they never outright say that the guy she supposedly gets with is the one she chooses and would definatly play into your scenario real well. I mean say for arguements sake, she sleeps with Sawyer, now we'd love that. And then for the reasons you stated choses Jack publicly, that would definalty create something there. You'd have Kate with Jack, with that Sawyer stuff hanging between them like a time bomb. You'd have a very confused and pissed off Sawyer, and the tension he'll bring by his mere presence near the cuple. Could you imagine the issues that could come out of that. They could fire the entire season on that, i for one could find it rather interesting in that sense. Both ships would get something and the triangle would stay alive in an undercurrent kind of way.

It's just a thought. :biggrin:

And thank you thank you Lisa for that I Never scene excerpt. It was a brilliantly written scene. And I also might add that Drew Goddard wrote that scene and that episode, and hes back on the show full time this season :). He wasnt there last season, so I think thats very good news for Skate. I highly doubt that they would toss their storyline to the wayside, no matter what. Its just too good to ignore.

You're quite welcome my dear GS...I'm at work so I have to run but I'll be back later...

Why is it that at the age of 43 I feels so dumb next to people like you, Fricks, Darbi, Perdue, losttvfan...the list goes on...whew!! I have a headache now...hehehe :confused:

Huggs,
Lisa

You're quite welcome my dear GS...I'm at work so I have to run but I'll be back later...

Why is it that at the age of 43 I feels so dumb next to people like you, Fricks, Darbi, Perdue, losttvfan...the list goes on...whew!! I have a headache now...hehehe :confused:

Huggs,
Lisa

awwwwwwww lisa you are not dumb, in fact i've felt dumb reading some of your posts on here too. There's just alot of smart people over here that's all :biggrin: we give eachother complexes LOL

Thanks for posting the deleted scene Lisa! And you are deffinately not dumb! ;) I could never write fan fics as good as you guys do, so who's the dumb one now. LOL :p

Fricks and Darbi I'm ITA with both of you.
I think we really have to think hard about these spoilers. They have fooled us before by using terms that weren't specific. Kate making her choice is very vague. I have a feeling they have something up their collective sleeves.

You're quite welcome my dear GS...I'm at work so I have to run but I'll be back later...

Why is it that at the age of 43 I feels so dumb next to people like you, Fricks, Darbi, Perdue, losttvfan...the list goes on...whew!! I have a headache now...hehehe :confused:

Huggs,
Lisa

Dumb?? A person with your kind of creativity can't POSSIBLY be dumb! BTW, add Zoriah that list. Those posts are SO intuitive!

P.S. I'm 42 in exactly one month and I feel dumber every day. Maybe it's because my two teenaged boys tell me I am! ;)

Which acronyms, Muchacha?

Well, there's ETA and one with an I i think... maybe i should just ask when they're being used, but ETA comes to mind. i usually can figure out the acronyms used for ep titles (such as CM) but sometimes i'm scratching my head for a while... :biggrin:

And re: the misuse of my name, no biggie, but i just have no idea what a Muchada is (if anything) and i am rather proud of the fact that i foresaw one of Sawyer's famous nicknames. ;)

and joemamaah... i can't believe that they would do that to you! i guess i have a rare relationship with my mother in which i don't think she's dumb even when i disagree with her. We've actually become friends as i've become an adult. My father on the other hand... :rolleyes: he sure acts dumb a lot of the time, usually when he's being defensive and trying to act superior. But i would never say that to his face!

p.s. in case anyone's wondering why i'm still here, i'm now not leaving civilization or contact with the internet until Wednesday.

and joemamaah... i can't believe that they would do that to you! i guess i have a rare relationship with my mother in which i don't think she's dumb even when i disagree with her. We've actually become friends as i've become an adult. My father on the other hand... :rolleyes: he sure acts dumb a lot of the time, usually when he's being defensive and trying to act superior. But i would never say that to his face!


Especially with my 16 y/o son, it's "O-KAY Mom - whatever..."

I just smile :)

P.S. Your parents are very blessed!

Lisa, don't you dare feel dumb. I enjoy reading your posts immensely. ;)

And to add a point I forgot earlier...



We all know that Kate will eventually find out about the Sana incident, and there's a good chance it could come up while their in captivity. She's not going to be happy about it, obviously. As Josh said in that TV Guide interview, it's going to have an effect.

It's possible that via Kate's anger, disappointment, hurt, jealousy about what Sawyer did, it becomes a factor coloring her "selection", but not the primary reason for it. I'm certain she will feel betrayed whether she has a right to be or not, and may see this as a sign or overwhelming evidence that Jack really is the right choice for her despite what's in her heart.


One other thing. This "Juilet" has been toted as being a "possible" love interest for Jack. If that's the case, there's been no indication of when or if this will really take place. In the meanwhile, what their relationship (Jack and Juliet) may be could be something competely unrelated to romance at all.

Yeah, my little sister Katie (who's ten) does that to me all the time, that and the L symbol for Loser. She's such a little pill sometimes... :rolleyes:

Yeah, my little sister Katie (who's ten) does that to me all the time, that and the L symbol for Loser. She's such a little pill sometimes... :rolleyes:

My youngest son is 10. Not as mouthy as his big brothers, but still very pill-y. That's why I'm on this forum too much!!!

Thanks for posting the deleted scene Lisa! And you are deffinately not dumb! ;) I could never write fan fics as good as you guys do, so who's the dumb one now. LOL :p

Fricks and Darbi I'm ITA with both of you.
I think we really have to think hard about these spoilers. They have fooled us before by using terms that weren't specific. Kate making her choice is very vague. I have a feeling they have something up their collective sleeves.

Alright y'all, stop that now, I wasn't fishin' for compliments or nothin' I was just sayin' how creative we all are...and I agree too, but thank you for the sweet comments...:kiss: a decision doesn't necessarily mean that any of is will know what it is, or that it will effect anything regarding Sawyer or Jack and that just because she makes a decision doens't mean that either of them will even know about it. So I guess we should take it with a grain of salt.

The bottom line is that all we really know for sure is that we know absolutely nothing.

Okay back to work now...

Huggs,
Lisa

Lisa, don't you dare feel dumb. I enjoy reading your posts immensely. ;)

And to add a point I forgot earlier...



We all know that Kate will eventually find out about the Sana incident, and there's a good chance it could come up while their in captivity. She's not going to be happy about it, obviously. As Josh said in that TV Guide interview, it's going to have an effect.

It's possible that via Kate's anger, disappointment, hurt, jealousy about what Sawyer did, it becomes a factor concerning her "selection", but not the primary reason for it. I'm certain she will feel betrayed whether she has a right to be or not, and may see this as a sign or overwhelming evidence that Jack really is the right choice for her despite what's in her heart.


One other thing. This "Juilet" has been toted as being a "possible" love interest for Jack. If that's the case, there's been no indication of when or if this will really take place. In the meanwhile, what their relationship (Jack and Juliet) may be something competely unrelated to romance at all.

oh that, yeah, pardon me if i think it'd a bit hypocritcal for her to be upset about that in that sense, but that's just me.
but definatly the knowledge will have an effect yes, maybe it'll be a braking point either way. And here's my thinking with this Juliet chick, if Jack and Kate are together this woman should have no effect on him whatsoever right? Cause supposdedly Jacks a stand up guy in that sense. But if they are planning her for a a love interest for Jack then it makes you wonder dosn't it? Which is why i'm optimistic about Skate's potential here.

and honey you said it best, they like to mess around with us so maybe we should just take it all with a grain of salt. :biggrin:

and lisa that last spoiler tagged comment was sheer brillance :biggrin:

oh that, yeah, pardon me if i think it'd a bit hypocritcal for her to be upset about that in that sense, but that's just me.
but definatly the knowledge will have an effect yes, maybe it'll be a braking point either way. And here's my thinking with this Juliet chick, if Jack and Kate are together this woman should have no effect on him whatsoever right? Cause supposdedly Jacks a stand up guy in that sense. But if they are planning her for a a love interest for Jack then it makes you wonder dosn't it? Which is why i'm optimistic about Skate's potential here.


I'm wondering if Jack will be the one to spill the beans about Sana, maybe it'll be his trump-card to drive a wedge between Sawyer and Kate.

If so, Sawyer's unloading his secret to Jack, (whom he considers to be his best friend on the island), might be his second biggest mistake, (after the Sana sex). Do you think Jack would be capable of betraying Sawyer's secret? Like it or not, that scene with Jack was a genuine breakthrough for Sawyer. A betrayal like that could be a double blow to healing Sawyer's inner turmoil: 1- losing Kate to Jack AND 2-Jack betraying Sawyer's secret to get her.

How else do you think Kate finds out about Sana? Just a thought.

another tiny thought: Maybe Juliet is Jack's half sister!! haha

joemamaah i would certainly hope that won't be the cause that would be bad, really bad for Jack. I can't think of anything good coming out of that. On the show on and on the boards.

as far as the other one well they said
she would a be potential love interest for Jack that would be a bit too Shoonissh if you ask me

lisa you are not dumb, in fact i've felt dumb reading some of your posts on here too. There's just alot of smart people over here that's all :biggrin: we give eachother complexes LOL It's very true. There are so many intelligent, thoughtful people here, I am always impressed by the posts. Not your usual fan-girls!!

Okay enough with the dumb talk, lol. Nobody is dumb here. We skate afterall. ;)

And all this spoiler talk is making my head hurt, lol. I cant even begin to fathom the complex web that they will weave into our beloved love triangle next season. So I think Im just gonna roll with it for now, hehe. Feeling good about Skate, and thats all I need. :)

I'm wondering if Jack will be the one to spill the beans about Sana, maybe it'll be his trump-card to drive a wedge between Sawyer and Kate.

If so, Sawyer's unloading his secret to Jack, (whom he considers to be his best friend on the island), might be his second biggest mistake, (after the Sana sex). Do you think Jack would be capable of betraying Sawyer's secret? Like it or not, that scene with Jack was a genuine breakthrough for Sawyer. A betrayal like that could be a double blow to healing Sawyer's inner turmoil: 1- losing Kate to Jack AND 2-Jack betraying Sawyer's secret to get her.

How else do you think Kate finds out about Sana? Just a thought.



It's possible that Sawyer tells her himself. Not in the midst of an argument or desperation, but in a reflective one. Not sure what would trigger the confession or the possibly damaging honesty, but Sawyer's been full of surprises in that area lately.

I guess, despite my current dislike of Jack right now, I wouldn't want him to go out like that. Although, I'll admit I can see him doing just that especially in the heat of an argument with Sawyer.


another tiny thought: Maybe Juliet is Jack's half sister!! haha

Ha! Now that would be quite the twist.

re: the poll, no i have not voted as far as i know... i don't think i went into a Jater thread when i was looking for the Skaters... :confused:

Muchacha, I think I've discovered the reason you can't vote - it may be that you need to increase the no.of your posts generally before you can vote in anything on the forum - so keep checking - if you want to vote that is - and if the poll is still open too!

Yay! I've just realised this is my 100th post & have moved to coach :biggrin:

I agree that some of the latest spoilers sound almost too good to be true:42:.... but we can always go on hoping - it ain't over yet anyways

Lisa, don't you dare feel dumb. I enjoy reading your posts immensely. ;)

And to add a point I forgot earlier...



We all know that Kate will eventually find out about the Sana incident, and there's a good chance it could come up while their in captivity. She's not going to be happy about it, obviously. As Josh said in that TV Guide interview, it's going to have an effect.

It's possible that via Kate's anger, disappointment, hurt, jealousy about what Sawyer did, it becomes a factor coloring her "selection", but not the primary reason for it. I'm certain she will feel betrayed whether she has a right to be or not, and may see this as a sign or overwhelming evidence that Jack really is the right choice for her despite what's in her heart.

One other thing. This "Juilet" has been toted as being a "possible" love interest for Jack. If that's the case, there's been no indication of when or if this will really take place. In the meanwhile, what their relationship (Jack and Juliet) may be could be something competely unrelated to romance at all.

:shesaid:

I have been thinking about another possibility. Sawyer should certainly be able to out-con anyone the Others throw at him...he's made a living at it. He also knows that he cannot let them use his feelings for Kate to contol him. Given what we now know, Sawyer can make a good guess that they have been watched (by the Others) for sometime.

OK, stay with me here. So they already know about Sawyer and Ana...and if they do, Sawyer can use that sexual encounter to put his interest in Kate in a different perspective. As in "hell yes I've been chasing her, but she don't put out....who cares, I got what I wanted from someone else!" This lessens the opportunity for them to use Kate to hurt or control him. What could happen is that he makes this admission in front of Kate (how she finds out) and it won't go over well. Either she will get what he is up to and play along or actually believe what he is saying and react (its gonna have an effect).

I cannot see Jack spilling the beans. He might do that in desperation, if Kate were to choose Sawyer....making his point as to how "wrong" that choice is for her, but IMO he wouldn't just spill the beans.

I am not sure the Other realize what they caught when they caught Sawyer LOL. God help 'em!

:heart: Joemamaah: A word from my Dad. He always said that "the older I got the smart he would get". Know what, he was right. I used that line on my step-daughters and they have both told me they are starting to use it on their kids! Take heart!

:mushy: Lisa: One of the reason I am on this board is you. I came here and lurked and found the conversation and the thinking so compelling and original I joined! Everyday I read something here that stuns me and makes me think . I am frankly impressed by all of you.

So since I don't see the passion there, then I wonder what exactly do I see. I see fear on Kate's part and confusion on Jack's but I don't see passion. I do see the passion in Sawyer. Sawyer is the type of person who's passionate about the things that matter to him. I just don't see that with Jack...

So what do ya'll think?


It wasn't until recently that I was able to just sit through the Jate kiss cause it is awkward and uncomfortable and still is with the camera angles and the sweeping music compared to the stillness and in your face that was the Skate kiss. However, I do see fear on Kate's face b/c I think she knew that she had feelings for Jack but after that kiss I think she realized how deep those feelings were and they scared her and Jack was just plain confused. I don't think passion was going to be a part of that kiss cause of the circumstances under which it happened or atleast I didn't see any. I am others would disagree

I have been thinking about another possibility. Sawyer should certainly be able to out-con anyone the Others throw at him...he's made a living at it. He also knows that he cannot let them use his feelings for Kate to contol him. Given what we now know, Sawyer can make a good guess that they have been watched (by the Others) for sometime.

OK, stay with me here. So they already know about Sawyer and Ana...and if they do, Sawyer can use that sexual encounter to put his interest in Kate in a different perspective. As in "hell yes I've been chasing her, but she don't put out....who cares, I got what I wanted from someone else!" This lessens the opportunity for them to use Kate to hurt or control him. What could happen is that he makes this admission in front of Kate (how she finds out) and it won't go over well. Either she will get what he is up to and play along or actually believe what he is saying and react (its gonna have an effect).
:shesaid: I love this - would be a great way for Kate to find out about Sana ;)

I am not sure the Other realize what they caught when they caught Sawyer LOL. God help 'em!
:rotflmao2:


:mushy: Lisa: One of the reason I am on this board is you. I came here and lurked and found the conversation and the thinking so compelling and original I joined! Everyday I read something here that stuns me and makes me think . I am frankly impressed by all of you.
Yep - feel this way too (though don't know how I can impress anyone here 'cos I'm only admitting I'm in agreement with everything just said!!) and can't add any more to it :10:

Interesting. I think you are the first Skater who's said they thought Kate realised how deep her feelings for Jack were in the kiss, and that scared her into running away. Unless I misunderstood you there.

For me it was a moment where she realised that her heart didn't want what her head told her she should want. :)

:heart: Joemamaah: A word from my Dad. He always said that "the older I got the smart he would get". Know what, he was right. I used that line on my step-daughters and they have both told me they are starting to use it on their kids! Take heart!



I'm going to start that tradition tonight.:D

I think I had read that someone was here about 10 days or 25 posts (or close to it) before being allowed to vote.

Interesting. I think you are the first Skater who's said they thought Kate realised how deep her feelings for Jack were in the kiss, and that scared her into running away. Unless I misunderstood you there.
For me it was a moment where she realised that her heart didn't want what her head told her she should want. :)

I like to be original. I do however think that Kate wants to want Jack b/c of what he reminds her of and what he represents, however I think that she tries to deny what she feels for Sawyer b/c of what he represents b/c loving him is not or will not be easy.

I like to be original. I do however think that Kate wants to want Jack b/c of what he reminds her of and what he represents, however I think that she tries to deny what she feels for Sawyer b/c of what he represents b/c loving him is not or will not be easy.

Wasn't her childhood friend, Tom, a doctor as well? She was indirectly responsible for his death. Maybe she's subconsciously replacing her dead friend with Jack. Is there something psychological to this?
100%


BTW, the Best Couple poll is locked. I'm afraid it got too personal.

Wasn't her childhood friend, Tom, a doctor as well? She was indirectly responsible for his death. Maybe she's subconsciously replacing her dead friend with Jack. Is there something psychological to this?

I thought it was brought up in the episode itself: transference. Doesn't Hurley mention this to Jack when he's chopping wood? Not sure. But yes, there is a psychological term for taking the strong feelings/memories one has towards a person or object and placing it on another person/object.

It was the same with Sawyer and the boar.

Yes, I did think the events in WKD was a case of transference. She saw Sawyer as Wayne (the bad dissolute negative father) and Jack was her goody two shoes step dad Sam (who she hopes will solve everything but who still turns her in and tells her he doesn't have murder in HIS heart.) I've always seen Jack as a Tom redux as well. A symbol of the 'good' life she could have had, the respectable doc's wife with kids etc that she didn't choose or couldn't have.

I thought it was brought up in the episode itself: transference. Doesn't Hurley mention this to Jack when he's chopping wood? I've always seen Jack as a Tom redux as well. A symbol of the 'good' life she could have had, the respectable doc's wife with kids etc that she didn't choose or couldn't have.

I remember that scene. I thought it was because Jack was angry because Kate was taking care of Sawyer. I was never sure about that, though. Lots of transfering going on!

bringing this over because even though it's oldish, it made me smile today to know what a producer/writer had to say. It was mostly concerning Ana and what she would bring to the table in being cast. Source: french mag, link to the scan here courtesy of Lyly Ford :http://img344.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lost40sels2.jpg

English translation thanks to Leah Kate via the lost-forum:

"And concerning the relationship between these two people, I believe that Jack is attracted to Kate, but he knows deep down that she'll never be what he needs, that she'll never play the part, and that all things considered, she's much more attracted to someone like Sawyer." - Damon Lindelof.


Ain't that the truth?

It wasn't until recently that I was able to just sit through the Jate kiss cause it is awkward and uncomfortable and still is with the camera angles and the sweeping music compared to the stillness and in your face that was the Skate kiss. However, I do see fear on Kate's face b/c I think she knew that she had feelings for Jack but after that kiss I think she realized how deep those feelings were and they scared her and Jack was just plain confused. I don't think passion was going to be a part of that kiss cause of the circumstances under which it happened or atleast I didn't see any. I am others would disagree

Thus leaving Kate as well as the audience (and Jack) in utter confusion as to Kate's true feelings are once again.

:laughing:

Perhaps that was the meaning behind Kate's expression before she ran off. The writers left the scene open for interpretation, but given the events that followed...Kate's confession, the horse...it's hard to say.

I agree that some of the latest spoilers sound almost too good to be true:42:.... but we can always go on hoping - it ain't over yet anyways

And I don't care a flip what the spoilers say, what the websites say or what anything else says, it ain't over until the series is over and maybe even not then. When Moonlighting ended they never did resolve the Dave and Maddie issue.

Do y'all remember Maddie's dream? She dreamed she married exactly what she THOUGHT she wanted and she ended up getting, as David put it, "that jar of mayonaise, you call a husband." She looks out the window and sees David dressed all in black and she tells him to go away. He doesn't. He breaks down the door and grabs her and starts to make love with her. Sound interesting? It sure does to me.

In 5 seasons, David and Maddie, fell in love, made love, many times, Maddie confessed she loved David (the slick, glib street smart, private investigator -- sound like anyone we might know) and also the established rich astronaut who could give her everything she ever wanted (sound like anyone else -- minus the astronaut), left Davd, married another guy divorced him, came back, got back together with David and at the end of the series they were still hashing it out and still in love with each other...

And wasn't it Javi, I think, who said it was over for Kate and Sawyer just like it was over for David and Maddie. He never said that about Kate and Jack. Now he might have if someone had asked him, but as far as I know nobody did. It's never over y'all...not even when the fat lady sings.

OK, stay with me here. So they already know about Sawyer and Ana...and if they do, Sawyer can use that sexual encounter to put his interest in Kate in a different perspective. As in "hell yes I've been chasing her, but she don't put out....who cares, I got what I wanted from someone else!" This lessens the opportunity for them to use Kate to hurt or control him. What could happen is that he makes this admission in front of Kate (how she finds out) and it won't go over well. Either she will get what he is up to and play along or actually believe what he is saying and react (its gonna have an effect).

:mushy: Lisa: One of the reason I am on this board is you. I came here and lurked and found the conversation and the thinking so compelling and original I joined! Everyday I read something here that stuns me and makes me think . I am frankly impressed by all of you.

Losttvfan, you've been reading girlspy's Broken Halves fan fic, haven't you? hehehe, just kidding... I think that is absolutely the way it could go...and thank you so much for your very very sweet words.

I like to be original. I do however think that Kate wants to want Jack b/c of what he reminds her of and what he represents, however I think that she tries to deny what she feels for Sawyer b/c of what he represents b/c loving him is not or will not be easy.

I think she also denies how she feels for him because she know's he's not who she should want, or who she thinks she should want. But the problem is she's part of him and he's part of her and she has to love him...He's what she is and he's the only thing she can't live without, it's in her very nature to love him and she can't do anything about it. She has no choice but to love him.

And for Sawyer, he's finally found the one thing that makes him forget who and what he is. She completes him, she makes him the man he wants to be. Not withstanding the guns, and crime and the fact that they have both killed, they cannot be anything but part of each other.

That's why it'll never ever ever be over.

Wasn't her childhood friend, Tom, a doctor as well? She was indirectly responsible for his death. Maybe she's subconsciously replacing her dead friend with Jack. Is there something psychological to this?
100%.

Excellent thought, I swear I never thought about that one before.

Huggs y'all,
Lisa ;)

And for Sawyer, he's finally found the one thing that makes him forget who and what he is. She completes him, she makes him the man he wants to be. Not withstanding the guns, and crime and the fact that they have both killed, they cannot be anything but part of each other.

That's why it'll never ever ever be over.

Lisa ;)

quote from SAWYER in TLC: "Good thing you don't hate me, Freckles."

And in spite of her anger and frustration, Kate didn't deny it.

You folks have sure been chattering away today! I can never leave this thread for long if I want to keep up! :D

STILL OVER TWO MONTHS TO GO!

:crybaby:

Is anyone still hanging out this evening?

quote from SAWYER in TLC: "Good thing you don't hate me, Freckles."

And in spite of her anger and frustration, Kate didn't deny it.

that's right she sure didn't, cause she dosen't. She would like to but she can't. It's why i'm optimstic, they can't just throw it away, threre's too much there to just give it up. As the song 'your a part of me and i'm a part of you' :biggrin:

and lisa don't EVER say your dumb again YOUR A GENUIS!! :ntworthy: that moonlighting post was just beautiful :biggrin:

Yep, I am here. It's only the afternoon in my part of the globe. *grins*

that's right she sure didn't, cause she dosen't. She would like to but she can't. It's why i'm optimstic, they can't just throw it away, threre's too much there to just give it up. As the song 'your a part of me and i'm a part of you' :biggrin:

and lisa don't EVER say your dumb again YOUR A GENUIS!! :ntworthy: that moonlighting post was just beautiful :biggrin:

Awww, Fricks, you so sweet...

When ya'll get a chance check out the LOST magazine, there's some nice things that Josh says about the cast...

Okay here's some more info I found that could work out good for Skate...this has been heard I'm sure but I think it might give us some insight...Episode 3.01: A Tale of Two Cities (Kate-centric)
Airdate: October 4, 2006
07/29 - This episode will be Kate-centric and have flashbacks featuring a 60-year-old motherly, warm, and funny woman as well as handsome twenty-year-old Karl. Source: SpoilerFix.com [Note: The role of Amelia, posted in the General Season 3 spoilers on July 14, may now be part of Kate's flashback.]

Y'all more and more I'm beginning to think the Tale of Two Cities thing is merely a referene to two camps.

Huggs,
Lisa

When ya'll get a chance check out the LOST magazine, there's some nice things that Josh says about the cast...
Please tell me that he denied all that crap about how he and Foxy hate each other's guts! I am SOOOOO sick of that story. . . .

Please tell me that he denied all that crap about how he and Foxy hate each other's guts! I am SOOOOO sick of that story. . . .

I don't think he had to...I don't think he'd stoop to that level...

Okay outkasters...here's something I heard on the radio this morning.

LOST is the Number 2 show world wide. How about that. We've done that in two season's y'all, think about that, two seasons..And in some parts of the world Season 2 is just now starting, so how great is that...

Keep your chins up darlin's...It's only gonna geet better...and do I even have to mention who's responsible for a good portion of that viewship.

I didn't think so!!!

Love,
Lisa

Hello :wavey:

I just got the TV Guide for next week. The largest pic on the cover is the Men from CSI but one of the smaller pics is of

KATE AND SAWYER

:clap::jump::clap:

:Jumpy: :happy_bounce: :Jumpy:

The people at TV Guide certainly know how to sell magazines.


I miss everyone :group: and hope y'all are having a Sawyeriffic Summer!

Yeah, the number #1 show worldwide is CSI: Miami.

I read over at Lost-forum( skate forum) that there is a new Lost magazine that has hardly no mention of Jack but, lots of skatey photos. It's the "New Year" book edition, with the title "Everything Changes" and under it mentions-"...reunite two of the unfortunate abuctees Kate and Sawyer."

"And concerning the relationship between these two people, I believe that Jack is attracted to Kate, but he knows deep down that she'll never be what he needs, that she'll never play the part, and that all things considered, she's much more attracted to someone like Sawyer." DAMON LINDELOF

Zoriah, I'm borrowing your sig line from LF because it struck up a thought last night after I read it. Perhaps it's nothing that hasn't already been said, but it got me to thinking.

Perhaps we've been looking at this whole relationship/triangle situation with the wrong intent.

We've all given our compelling arguments about why we feel S/K are better, Jaters why J/K are better romantically, looking at the love triangle in terms of who's going to "win" in a sense. Who has the better chemistry, who's more exciting to watch...a host of other things that are valid from a viewing preference, but inconsequential ultimately. Hardly ever do we take into consideration the actual journey in which these characters will have to take as individuals, and what part of their "relationships" in whatever form they take will effect that journey.


And I had more to say...but I keep getting interrupted. Work. :rolleyes:

Hello :wavey:

I just got the TV Guide for next week. The largest pic on the cover is the Men from CSI but one of the smaller pics is of

KATE AND SAWYER

:clap::jump::clap:

:Jumpy: :happy_bounce: :Jumpy:

The people at TV Guide certainly know how to sell magazines.


I miss everyone :group: and hope y'all are having a Sawyeriffic Summer!

Where can I find a scan????

Muchacha, I think I've discovered the reason you can't vote - it may be that you need to increase the no.of your posts generally before you can vote in anything on the forum - so keep checking - if you want to vote that is - and if the poll is still open too!

Yes, i was wondering if that was the case... it was a long time before i could put up an avatar, it seemed to me. :rolleyes: But yeah, i would have thought if i can put up an avatar then i can vote. Maybe i did vote skate but just don't remember? :confused: That just seems strange.

:heart: Joemamaah: A word from my Dad. He always said that "the older I got the smart he would get". Know what, he was right. I used that line on my step-daughters and they have both told me they are starting to use it on their kids! Take heart!

What you said LostTVFan! and yes, that is an old line that is often used on kids... :biggrin:

Wasn't her childhood friend, Tom, a doctor as well? She was indirectly responsible for his death. Maybe she's subconsciously replacing her dead friend with Jack. Is there something psychological to this?


Yeah, i've always thought that this is why Jate wouldn't work, that she's only trying to replace Tom. That's probably why her marriage didn't work, too. i wonder how/why she let Tom get away. i also think that Sawyer if the first bad boy she's ever been with without it being so she could use him (not that they're exactly dating, but you know).

I think she also denies how she feels for him because she know's he's not who she should want, or who she thinks she should want. But the problem is she's part of him and he's part of her and she has to love him...He's what she is and he's the only thing she can't live without, it's in her very nature to love him and she can't do anything about it. She has no choice but to love him.

And for Sawyer, he's finally found the one thing that makes him forget who and what he is. She completes him, she makes him the man he wants to be. Not withstanding the guns, and crime and the fact that they have both killed, they cannot be anything but part of each other.

That's why it'll never ever ever be over.

that's right she sure didn't, cause she dosen't. She would like to but she can't. It's why i'm optimstic, they can't just throw it away, threre's too much there to just give it up. As the song 'your a part of me and i'm a part of you' :biggrin:

This make me think about my own father, who always says i'm going to marry someone just like him... shudders. :eek2: There are some traits my father possesses that i guess attract me in a way, but with his anger and control issues... any guy i'm with will have to lose those or it's no deal. But i think the reason i've never gone for the bad boy type is because they remind me too much of my father, and that made me think of Kate. Maybe she's torn between ending up with a responsible Tom type or a sleezy Wayne type. There are layers to every individual, and i guess the question is if the good and attractive outweighs the bad and repulsive and if first impressions are right. Maybe she's afraid of turning into her mother, too.

I'm sure this is not a new thought to y'all, but it is to me-

You know how the pro-Kack crowd clings to the fact that Jack said, "I'm not", regarding Kate's apology. Those two words don't necessarily mean "I'm GLAD", either.

It could have meant something to the effect of, "That's OK, don't worry about it, I'm not mad." I don't think anyone would expect Jack to say,"Well you should be sorry!"

Either way, this isn't a declaration of love.

I'm sure that's one of Kate's great concerns...making the same choices that her mother made. That has to be pretty scary emotionally.

I haven't located the current tv guide cover yet, but I did notice this: http://online.tvguide.com/games/covergallery/generatecard.asp?id=05060504&recipName1=&recipEmail1=&senderName=&senderEmail=

He is quite...impressive.

I think that is a very valid reason for why she is emotionally and romantically drawn to Sawyer but resisting it. She is afraid he will turn into another Wayne. That she will repeat the mistakes her mother made. You can't blame her for that. But hopefully she will also realise that Sawyer is not Wayne, he is a troubled soul just like her, and needs someone to have faith in him, and to not give up in trying to get under his skin/get close and break him out of his protective shell he's been building since he was a a little boy.

ETA: Darbi by all means lift that quote. I find it a very interesting insight coming from Damon. I agree that we tend to champion our fave characters and want them to 'win' the prize of a certain person's love, but often gloss over whether or not it would be a good thing for their emotional and character development in the long run.

I personally think that Kate has forced Sawyer to be more self-reflective than ever before. To really examine the effect he has on other people's lives, and why he is afraid to let people like him and get close. And conversely, I do think Sawyer gives Kate a measure of acceptance that is good for her, in the sense that he doesn't shy from the truth, but he doesn't punish her for her past either. This is very important for her own growth as an independent individual.

What does Kate bring to Jack? Certainly not peace of mind. I only see stress, confusion, longing for something he knows she won't be able to give him.

What does Jack bring to Kate? Not acceptance. Expectation, conditional love. Jump through the hoops and I'll give you my attention. Not forgiveness without a price.

Hey, Charmqn! I like the Kool-Aid pitcher man! :biggrin:

Yes, the Wayne vs. Tom thing is prevalent in Kate's troubled mind. Hopefully, the MORE troubling situation of being the captive of The Others will help her see these two guys for THEMSELVES, not the men of her past.

Like this Karl dude, who's apparently the guy she was married to once.

What James and Kate have is special, not only sexually/romantically, but FRIENDSHIP-wise. I would hate to see it "lost"!! :love:

bringing this over because even though it's oldish, it made me smile today to know what a producer/writer had to say. It was mostly concerning Ana and what she would bring to the table in being cast. Source: french mag, link to the scan here courtesy of Lyly Ford :http://img344.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lost40sels2.jpg

English translation thanks to Leah Kate via the lost-forum:

"And concerning the relationship between these two people, I believe that Jack is attracted to Kate, but he knows deep down that she'll never be what he needs, that she'll never play the part, and that all things considered, she's much more attracted to someone like Sawyer." - Damon Lindelof.


Ain't that the truth?

Absolutely Zoriah! I knew I really liked that man i.e. Damon ;) - sounds like he's the original Skater at heart :clap:
100%
You folks have sure been chattering away today! I can never leave this thread for long if I want to keep up! :D

STILL OVER TWO MONTHS TO GO!

:crybaby:

Gosh, I feel your frustration waiting for Lost to resume STH, but just think of others who have to wait even longer than 2 months, it might make you feel better - season 2 just finished for us a couple of weeks ago, so God knows when next season starts here :20:- you make me laugh when I see you counting the days (sorry!) but then I cry when I think of how long I'll have to wait - I'll be so envious of you all on Oct. 4th!

Hello :wavey:

I just got the TV Guide for next week. The largest pic on the cover is the Men from CSI but one of the smaller pics is of

KATE AND SAWYER

:clap::jump::clap:

:Jumpy: :happy_bounce: :Jumpy:

The people at TV Guide certainly know how to sell magazines.


I miss everyone :group: and hope y'all are having a Sawyeriffic Summer!

:cheerleader: Putting my jeans back on and running out to buy TV Guide....anything with Lost (and especially Kate and Sawyer) on the cover sells out fast---and what does that tell us!

I think that is a very valid reason for why she is emotionally and romantically drawn to Sawyer but resisting it. She is afraid he will turn into another Wayne. That she will repeat the mistakes her mother made. You can't blame her for that. But hopefully she will also realise that Sawyer is not Wayne, he is a troubled soul just like her, and needs someone to have faith in him, and to not give up in trying to get under his skin/get close and break him out of his protective shell he's been building since he was a a little boy.

ETA: Darbi by all means lift that quote. I find it a very interesting insight coming from Damon. I agree that we tend to champion our fave characters and want them to 'win' the prize of a certain person's love, but often gloss over whether or not it would be a good thing for their emotional and character development in the long run.

I personally think that Kate has forced Sawyer to be more self-reflective than ever before. To really examine the effect he has on other people's lives, and why he is afraid to let people like him and get close. And conversely, I do think Sawyer gives Kate a measure of acceptance that is good for her, in the sense that he doesn't shy from the truth, but he doesn't punish her for her past either. This is very important for her own growth as an independent individual.

What does Kate bring to Jack? Certainly not peace of mind. I only see stress, confusion, longing for something he knows she won't be able to give him.

What does Jack bring to Kate? Not acceptance. Expectation, conditional love. Jump through the hoops and I'll give you my attention. Not forgiveness without a price.
Brilliant Zoriah, totally agree :41: - no, we can't blame Kate for fearing there's a bit of Wayne in Sawyer although I do think she realised Wayne isn't a part of Sawyer's character after he woke up in WKD, will have to rewatch that episode to remember exactly why I was left with that feeling.
Evie says this in the latest Lost mag that if Kate ever wants redemption she has to: "believe in herself and be vulnerable" and that she has to be independent of Jack too. My thoughts on this are - 1 - Sawyer would help Kate to believe in herself even though she ultimately has to do this herself. 2 - If she allows herself to be vulnerable she may allow herself to take the 'risk' of letting someone in i.e. a relationship with hopefully Sawyer!! (relationships are always about taking somewhat of a risk, you don't know if they're gonna work out unless you try) 3 - If Kate is strong enough & doesn't continue to look for Jack's approval she'll be more likely to admit her feelings for Sawyer too ;)
100%
Yes, i was wondering if that was the case... it was a long time before i could put up an avatar, it seemed to me. :rolleyes: But yeah, i would have thought if i can put up an avatar then i can vote. Maybe i did vote skate but just don't remember? :confused: That just seems strange.

Yeah, I think now that I may have been wrong & you should be able to vote by now, it's not like you've posted a couple of times only! Anyway, that poll & thread has been shut down due to the heated arguments over there yesterday, so no-one can vote now unfortunately - but we know Skate is the best anyway :thumb_up:

Good heavens, I go away for a couple of days to do real grown up work and stuff and I have dozens of pages to read. Yikes! Excellent thoughts everyone. And wonderful picture of Josh on TV Guide.

Maybe she's torn between ending up with a responsible Tom type or a sleezy Wayne type. There are layers to every individual, and i guess the question is if the good and attractive outweighs the bad and repulsive and if first impressions are right. Maybe she's afraid of turning into her mother, too.

I don't know that I would necessarily categorize Jack or Sawyer like that. I think she equated Sawyer to Wayne, simply because it's all she ever knew. And that's why I think that when Sawyer woke up, she realized the depth of who he is and that's what changed her mind.

At least that's how it looks to me.

Huggs.
Lisa

I don't know that I would necessarily categorize Jack or Sawyer like that. I think she equated Sawyer to Wayne, simply because it's all she ever knew. And that's why I think that when Sawyer woke up, she realized the depth of who he is and that's what changed her mind.

At least that's how it looks to me.

Huggs.
Lisa

i think your right lisa there were certain aspects of Sawyer that probably reminded her to a degree of Wayne but it was superficial at best. I think she came to the realization that he wan't him, it was the feelings he engendered in her that made her scared,and the he isn't really much like him other than a surface resemblance. Sawyer is kind of a bad guy and in her mind, bad guy=Wayne. But she put that aside i think, at least i hope.

It really is good that they have each other to lean on on the Island. No one else can come close to "getting" them than they can! :biggrin:

What does Kate bring to Jack? Certainly not peace of mind. I only see stress, confusion, longing for something he knows she won't be able to give him.

What does Jack bring to Kate? Not acceptance. Expectation, conditional love. Jump through the hoops and I'll give you my attention. Not forgiveness without a price.

It's almost like a weird transference of Jack's relationship with his father.

It's almost like a weird transference of Jack's relationship with his father.
OOOOO! Very good observation, Darbi! :thumbsup:

It's almost like a weird transference of Jack's relationship with his father.

It is isn't it?
I think Jack is alot like his father in those senses but struggles not to be. The sometimes condescending nature he sometimes displays occasionally with her, and with Sawyer on occasion. I'm not sure if Jack is even aware that he does it. It's like the sarcasm from Sawyer, it's so ingrained in the way they behave that you don't notice you do it half the time. You almost can't help it anymore.

Another good reason Kate and James get along so well--she knows he's being antagonistic just to be antagonistic. An auto-defense system. Like running is hers.

Another good reason Kate and James get along so well--she knows he's being antagonistic just to be antagonistic. An auto-defense system. Like running is hers.

very true STH these defense mechisms are so automatically engaged that we barely recognize when we use them sometimes. Kate's tendencey to run from her problems rather than facing them. Jack's emotional aloofneess and Sawyers tendencey to be snarky to keep people away. The defense engages automatically when there's a threat, the person using it is hardly aware of it conciously.

No place to run or defend oneself at Others HQ, though, is there?

This could open up SOOOOO many opportunities....

It is isn't it?
I think Jack is alot like his father in those senses but struggles not to be. The sometimes condescending nature he sometimes displays occasionally with her, and with Sawyer on occasion. I'm not sure if Jack is even aware that he does it. It's like the sarcasm from Sawyer, it's so ingrained in the way they behave that you don't notice you do it half the time. You almost can't help it anymore.

Here's hitting the nail on the head - except I'd replace the occasion/ally with often.

Going to Shiloh, TN for a week. No internet! Until then!

I think Jack is alot like his father in those senses but struggles not to be. The sometimes condescending nature he sometimes displays occasionally with her, and with Sawyer on occasion. I'm not sure if Jack is even aware that he does it. It's like the sarcasm from Sawyer, it's so ingrained in the way they behave that you don't notice you do it half the time. You almost can't help it anymore.
Popping in because this is an excellent point. He might not realize it, but the others do, particularly Kate -- see ATBCHDI: "Would it kill you to give the guy a little space?" "It might." "Stop that." "What?" "That."

Sawyer calls him on it while they're out hunting for Michael ("Why you out here, Doc?"..."You got your reasons, I got mine."), but I definitely think that it's something Jack doesn't even see/realize/know is not appropriate/polite behavior.

Returning to lurk-mode. Carry on, carry on :)

No place to run or defend oneself at Others HQ, though, is there?

This could open up SOOOOO many opportunities....

I deffinately agree there STH. I can't wait to see what happens while they are in captivity.

Popping in because this is an excellent point. He might not realize it, but the others do, particularly Kate -- see ATBCHDI: "Would it kill you to give the guy a little space?" "It might." "Stop that." "What?" "That."

Sawyer calls him on it while they're out hunting for Michael ("Why you out here, Doc?"..."You got your reasons, I got mine."), but I definitely think that it's something Jack doesn't even see/realize/know is not appropriate/polite behavior.

Returning to lurk-mode. Carry on, carry on :)


Oh, yeah...I remember that. I think afterwards he went on to question (demand/attack) Kate about where she learned her tracking skills from...before or after she went on the run. Yikes! Dude......no. I honestly don't believe he even realizes, as you stated that it's inappropriate or inpolite behavior on his part. Bless his heart.

Was it ever established why Jack didn't like Locke? I get that none of them were particularly trusting of one another at the beginning, but like Sawyer (whose dislike for was obvious) what was the deal with Locke?

Probaby isn't the right thread to be discussing this, but since we're kind of on the topic anyways...:redface:

Oh, yeah...I remember that. I think afterwards he went on to question (demand/attack) Kate about where she learned her tracking skills from...before or after she went on the run. Yikes! Dude......no. I honestly don't believe he even realizes, as you stated that it's inappropriate or inpolite behavior on his part. Bless his heart.

Was it ever established why Jack didn't like Locke? I get that none of them were particularly trusting of one another at the beginning, but like Sawyer (whose dislike for was obvious) what was the deal with Locke?

Probaby isn't the right thread to be discussing this, but since we're kind of on the topic anyways...:redface:

IMO, I think Jack just didn't trust him. Locke was awful mysterious/sneaky in the beginning and I think it just caused Jack to mistrust him. And then of course the whole Boone/hatch thing made matters worse.

The fact that Jack and Sawyer say these things without realizing it...almost like they can't stop themselves...makes it even sadder to me.

Bless his heart. Yes, indeed. He (and Sawyer and Kate) needs our blessings now more than ever.
Was it ever established why Jack didn't like Locke? I get that none of them were particularly trusting of one another at the beginning, but like Sawyer (whose dislike for was obvious) what was the deal with Locke?

Probably isn't the right thread to be discussing this, but since we're kind of on the topic anyways...:redface: From 1x04:
Jack: "What's your feel on our new friend?"
Kate: "Seems to know what he's doing."
Jack: "Call me paranoid, but anyone who packs a suitcase full of knives..."

Plus, you have the fact that Locke appears to "know" things about the island, goes off for 5 hours each day, takes on an acolyte (Boone), who had once looked up to Jack (pre-WR), who is more-or-less in charge of their supply of food...and that's just the first part of S1. Once you have Locke asking Jack to let him go so he can follow the smoke monster down the hole...I'd say Jack finds him a little bit on the dangerous side of weird.

Oh. And. There's that conversation between Jack and Charlie, where Charlie says, "No offense, Jack, but if there was one person on this island I'd count on to save us all, it'd be John Locke." Talk about unnerving.

Aaannnd....Sawyer calls him Mr. Clean. Which I think is fabulous. Kate calls him John. There's my Sawyer & Kate tie-in. :angel:

IMO, I think Jack just didn't trust him. Locke was awful mysterious/sneaky in the beginning and I think it just caused Jack to mistrust him. And then of course the whole Boone/hatch thing made matters worse.

The fact that Jack and Sawyer say these things without realizing it...almost like they can't stop themselves...makes it even sadder to me.

Yeah, it really does. Two sides of the same coin. Run Kate, run! :laughing:

Yeah, it really does. Two sides of the same coin. Run Kate, run! :laughing:
The feminist in me would rejoice :biggrin:.

The feminist in me would rejoice :biggrin:.



You and me both.

Originally Posted by everblue3 http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/images/FuselageGreen/misc/backlink.gif (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=54887&page=42#post1110192)

The feminist in me would rejoice :biggrin:.



You and me both. You and you and me make three.

It really is good that they have each other to lean on on the Island. No one else can come close to "getting" them than they can! :biggrin:

ITA SaveTheHumans ;). I dont think anyone can get under Sawyers skin like Kate can and vice versa for her. Hehe, and like an itch that your not sposed to scratch, it just gets worse when they deny themselves that truth. :)

Here's hitting the nail on the head - except I'd replace the occasion/ally with often.
Going to Shiloh, TN for a week. No internet! Until then!

Have a great trip joemamaah :D

first of all, the TV Guide cover: http://www.tvguide.com/tv/magazine/

I don't know that I would necessarily categorize Jack or Sawyer like that. I think she equated Sawyer to Wayne, simply because it's all she ever knew. And that's why I think that when Sawyer woke up, she realized the depth of who he is and that's what changed her mind.

At least that's how it looks to me.

Huggs.
Lisa
Well i think that Kate's definitely coming around, but it will take her a while to work through issues like these. It's hard to undo decades of pain for either character. i know that when my Dad wants to touch me it's still hard not to flinch... not that i'm afraid that he'll hurt me physically, but because he's hurt me emotionally. The thing of it is that he doesn't even know how deep the pain goes. He doesn't think that he's done anything particularly wrong (he feels his rage is justified) and i can't talk to him about it, no way. So realistically... Kate might take a while to come around, but i think it's inevitable.

It's almost like a weird transference of Jack's relationship with his father.
Wow, what a great point! Which just makes it more clear that Jack doesn't treat Kate as an equal. And it is true that it is very hard not to repeat our parents' mistakes. i struggle a lot with anger that i definitely do not want to let control me the way it controls my father.

very true STH these defense mechisms are so automatically engaged that we barely recognize when we use them sometimes. Kate's tendencey to run from her problems rather than facing them. Jack's emotional aloofneess and Sawyers tendencey to be snarky to keep people away. The defense engages automatically when there's a threat, the person using it is hardly aware of it conciously.
Exactly what i was trying to say. :biggrin:

Yes, indeed. He (and Sawyer and Kate) needs our blessings now more than ever.
From 1x04:
Jack: "What's your feel on our new friend?"
Kate: "Seems to know what he's doing."
Jack: "Call me paranoid, but anyone who packs a suitcase full of knives..."

Plus, you have the fact that Locke appears to "know" things about the island, goes off for 5 hours each day, takes on an acolyte (Boone), who had once looked up to Jack (pre-WR), who is more-or-less in charge of their supply of food...and that's just the first part of S1. Once you have Locke asking Jack to let him go so he can follow the smoke monster down the hole...I'd say Jack finds him a little bit on the dangerous side of weird.

Oh. And. There's that conversation between Jack and Charlie, where Charlie says, "No offense, Jack, but if there was one person on this island I'd count on to save us all, it'd be John Locke." Talk about unnerving.

Aaannnd....Sawyer calls him Mr. Clean. Which I think is fabulous. Kate calls him John. There's my Sawyer & Kate tie-in. :angel:


Rotfl! This is exactly why i wouldn't get along with Jack, i'd be hiding in the jungle, exploring, going off without telling anyone where i am. As much as i hate it, i am a loner. Yeah, Boone's death was what really turned Jack against Locke (the straw that broke the camel's back as it were), and the funny thing about Charlie's trust is that Locke is the last person who wants to get off the Island.

Anyways, be back next Tuesday. Have fun while i'm gone. ;)

Originally Posted by everblue3

Yes, indeed. He (and Sawyer and Kate) needs our blessings now more than ever.
From 1x04:
Jack: "What's your feel on our new friend?"
Kate: "Seems to know what he's doing."
Jack: "Call me paranoid, but anyone who packs a suitcase full of knives..."

Plus, you have the fact that Locke appears to "know" things about the island, goes off for 5 hours each day, takes on an acolyte (Boone), who had once looked up to Jack (pre-WR), who is more-or-less in charge of their supply of food...and that's just the first part of S1. Once you have Locke asking Jack to let him go so he can follow the smoke monster down the hole...I'd say Jack finds him a little bit on the dangerous side of weird.

Oh. And. There's that conversation between Jack and Charlie, where Charlie says, "No offense, Jack, but if there was one person on this island I'd count on to save us all, it'd be John Locke." Talk about unnerving.

Aaannnd....Sawyer calls him Mr. Clean. Which I think is fabulous. Kate calls him John. There's my Sawyer & Kate tie-in. :angel:


Isn't it interesting that after what, two, nearly three months...no one's (unless I'm forgetting something. Likely. Time to re-watch S1) asked Locke why he had a case full of knives.

Speaking of knives. I think there's blade of truth (pun somewhat intended) balancing between Jack and Charlies' accessment of Locke. He could very well save all their hides or get a majority of them killed as the series progresses.

Hello Skaters! I'm kinda new here but the first thing I did was finding out where my ship was and singing on to it. ;) I just luv Skate! I was watching "What Kate did" last nigth and I remember that the first time I saw it I was so worried cuz it was going to be this big 'Jate thing' with the kiss and all but at the end of the epi I was so happy cuz it turn out to be a great Skate epi. He help her get over her past and she help him come back to life...They are sooo made for each other!

Hello Skaters! I'm kinda new here but the first thing I did was finding out where my ship was and singing on to it. ;) I just luv Skate! I was watching "What Kate did" last nigth and I remember that the first time I saw it I was so worried cuz it was going to be this big 'Jate thing' with the kiss and all but at the end of the epi I was so happy cuz it turn out to be a great Skate epi. He help her get over her past and she help him come back to life...They are sooo made for each other!

Hi and welcome FrecklesLuvsCowboy!!!!!!:biggrin: :hug:

I like your name i commented on a different thread on how cool it was.

Yeah i was worried too i knew there was gonna have a Jate kiss and everything. But it turned out to be a great eppy.

Hehe, I just thought of something. Even when Kate kissed Jack and Sawyer had his relations with Ana, Skate still came out on top, lol. She ran back to Sawyer after the kiss, and Sawyer had to prove to Ana that Kate still wasnt in his head, which he failed miserably at, lol. Like our old saying "Chemisry a title wave couldnt extinguish." ;)

The fact that Jack and Sawyer say these things without realizing it...almost like they can't stop themselves...makes it even sadder to me.

It is sad isn't it honey? some times we are prisonsers to own psyche without realizing it. It's like Damon said about Sawyer, 'he's not self-aware enough to understand that there's reasons he behaves this way, he's just helpless to do it" and that applies to Jack as well as Sawyer IMO. I have a boss who uses the same type type of tone when he talks to us, a sort of condenscending tone, and dosen't understand why people get all defensive when he uses it. He's been doing it his whole life and dosen't even realize that he does it. It's hard to escape that trap it as Muchacha said. (i hope i spelled that right teehee :redface: )

You and me both.

Me too :biggrin:

ITA SaveTheHumans ;). I dont think anyone can get under Sawyers skin like Kate can and vice versa for her. Hehe, and like an itch that your not sposed to scratch, it just gets worse when they deny themselves that truth. :)

Have a great trip joemamaah :D

They always seem to to find their way back to eachother don't they? Just can't get too far away :biggrin:

Hehe, I just thought of something. Even when Kate kissed Jack and Sawyer had his relations with Ana, Skate still came out on top, lol. She ran back to Sawyer after the kiss, and Sawyer had to prove to Ana that Kate still wasnt in his head, which he failed miserably at, lol. Like our old saying "Chemisry a title wave couldnt extinguish." ;)

Damn girlspy why do you have to be so smart? I think you nailed it there i really do.

and jomamaah have a great trip :biggrin:

Hi Skaters^^
I made new manip :)

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5715/cbbbphoto04ne9.jpg
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/1025/banskatear7.jpg

You wouldn't be trying to TELL us something with those, would you, lyly? :wink1:

[/i]
[/font]

Isn't it interesting that after what, two, nearly three months...no one's (unless I'm forgetting something. Likely. Time to re-watch S1) asked Locke why he had a case full of knives.

Speaking of knives. I think there's blade of truth (pun somewhat intended) balancing between Jack and Charlies' accessment of Locke. He could very well save all their hides or get a majority of them killed as the series progresses.




You know that's right, I never thought of that either...I guess everyone just assumed it was for his trip he went on.

Hello Skaters! I'm kinda new here but the first thing I did was finding out where my ship was and singing on to it. ;) I just luv Skate! I was watching "What Kate did" last nigth and I remember that the first time I saw it I was so worried cuz it was going to be this big 'Jate thing' with the kiss and all but at the end of the epi I was so happy cuz it turn out to be a great Skate epi. He help her get over her past and she help him come back to life...They are sooo made for each other!

Hi FrecklesLC, welcome to outkasts, we're glad to have you. Check out the first page of this thread for some valuable info and other neat stuff. I'm sure Girlspy will be by in no time to give you a number. Feel free to ask questions and talk and generally make yourself to home.

Hi Skaters^^
I made new manip :)

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5715/cbbbphoto04ne9.jpg
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/1025/banskatear7.jpg

Oooooh great manips, Lyly...and I have to agree with STH, are you trying to tell us something?

Evening my dear Skaters...had to work all day so I didn't get to come in and say howdy. Hope everybody had a good day.

Come one folks, we need a new discussion question...any takers.

Huggs,
Lisa ;)

Okay, LIsa, here's a question: What kind of relationship is Sawyer going to have with Charlie after what they did together to Sun?

What kind of relationship is Sawyer going to have with Charlie after what they did together to Sun?
I always got the impression that after the con they pulled was done, they were done using each other, and went their own ways. How 'bout you folks?

Okay outkasters...

Chapter 18 is done...I hope you like it...

http://www.kateandsawyer.co.uk/viewstory.php?sid=1264

oooh good question from our dear Perdue...I think I'll answer it tomorrow though...

take care everybody,
See you all in the morning,
Lisa

I always got the impression that after the con they pulled was done, they were done using each other, and went their own ways. How 'bout you folks?


Yeah, that was pretty much my thoughts on the matter.

I do hope we evetually get a scene where Sawyer apologizes to Sun for what he did.

I always got the impression that after the con they pulled was done, they were done using each other, and went their own ways. How 'bout you folks?

i think your right on that.. i don't think they'vd had much to do with eachother since and won't either. No love lost their.

and yes Darbi i would we would get that eventually from Sawyer, cause he does owe Sun one big one i can tell you that much.

THANK YOU, LISA! :hug:

But it only makes me hungry--no, starving--for Chapter 19 now!! :book:

You wouldn't be trying to TELL us something with those, would you, lyly? :wink1:

No, just my hope :biggrin: and my passion about Skate:biggrin:

lyly, thank you for those wonderful manips. Very telling indeed. ;)

THANK YOU, LISA! :hug:

But it only makes me hungry--no, starving--for Chapter 19 now!! :book:

Couldnt have said it better myself STH :D, when is chapter 19 coming out?

What kind of relationship is Sawyer going to have with Charlie after what they did together to Sun?

Great question Perdue. I think I agree with STH, in that they both are done with one another for now. I think the real question is however, who will rat who out first? Cause we all know Sawyer cant keep a secret, but on the other hand, If Charlie starts to feel guilty he could confess. Kindof like a cleansing of the conscience thing. But I really do hope Sawyer apologizes to Sun. He needs to. I doubt if that ever happened thought that Sawyer would just waltz right up to her and say "Im sorry Sun" I think there would have to be some due cause on his part.

Good morning everyone! I've been trying to think up a question for us to ponder, but my brain is cooperating. :blush:

Since I can't really think of anything, I thought I'd expand on Perdue's question about Sawyer, Charlie and Sun.

If Sawyer is to apologize to Sun (which he should) in what setting does this happen?

What kind of relationship is Sawyer going to have with Charlie after what they did together to Sun?

I don't think they're going to have much of a relationship at all really. EXCEPT that they both have something on eachother for future use. It might just be one of those things where they both know that they can't screw eachother over in a major way or one of them could reveal what happened. And if one of them gets pushed into a corner and has nothing left to lose...that could very well happen.

If Sawyer is to apologize to Sun (which he should) in what setting does this happen?
I don't know...I don't think it should ever happen. I think what he did was wrong on SO many levels...and if it ever comes out, it could be ugly. I just think that it's one of those things that's best left unadressed.

It may very well work out that way. Still, I'd love to see him owning up to his part in it...and as much as it pains me to say it...keep Charlie's part in it secret.


If that makes any sense.

THANK YOU, LISA! :hug:

But it only makes me hungry--no, starving--for Chapter 19 now!! :book: Couldnt have said it better myself STH :D, when is chapter 19 coming out?

Soon I promise, maybe tonight, and hold on 'cause it's a roller coaster...

Be back after the updates are done to the fuse, then I'll answer the question...

Huggs,
Lisa ;)

Ill be back to answer the question later too. Cant wait for that next chapter Lisa ;), but I just wanted to wish....

Evi, A Very HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!

:party: :party: :party:

It may very well work out that way. Still, I'd love to see him owning up to his part in it...and as much as it pains me to say it...keep Charlie's part in it secret.


If that makes any sense.

Would be good if he did admit it to Sun & apologise and I agree Darbi - would be good too if he didn't rat Charlie out - this would be in his favour if it ever did eventually come out that Charlie was involved too I think. There would also be the question of who did the actual deed as it's known that Sawyer was on the beach with Kate at the time, so the subject may not just drop if he owns up to it.
Anyhow, if it's possible to elevate Sawyer any further in my standards, I think he'd rise in my estimation of him again if he kept quiet about Charlie's part in it.

:hapybday: to Evie too! :bdaysmle:

Just popping in quickly to post this link:

http://www.buddytv.com/articles/lost/is_abc_losing_faith_in_lost.aspx

:mad: Title of article: "Is ABC Losing Faith in Lost?"...very interesting reading about the 1st Season v. 2nd Season and TPTB's disappointment of the lack of Emmy nominations.

Just popping in quickly to post this link:

http://www.buddytv.com/articles/lost/is_abc_losing_faith_in_lost.aspx

:mad: Title of article: "Is ABC Losing Faith in Lost?"...very interesting reading about the 1st Season v. 2nd Season and TPTB's disappointment of the lack of Emmy nominations.

I certainly hope ABC is not losing faith in Lost - but it is still possible to do a good show without the same budget if it comes to that - I'd just be worried they'd kill off good characters left, right & centre, hopefully this isn't where they'd attempt to reduce amount spent anyway....
As long as there's Sawyer & Kate I could watch forever, what more do we really need?! :love:

I don't think ABC is losing faith in the show at all! But it makes sense for them to cut back on the spending when the sophmore DVD is released. They wanted EVERYONE to pay attention to the release of the Season 1 DVD because it was a way to hook new viewers on the show. They could start from the beginning and become faithful viewers. Plus they were touting their own success an a network that emerged from crisis and became a critical favourite.

Lost is no longer the 'new' kid on the block. So it makes sense that the second DVD release would be more modest. It's not that ABC cares less...it's just that the first party is always the biggest. Lost is settling into its place...and ABC needs to put their money into splashy partys for other fledgling shows that they need to promote the heck out of.

I see it as positive that Lost doesn't NEED the hype to sell DVD's. I think they'll do just fine because their DVD buying audience are already hooked. (The first DVD was HUGELY successful...and it's the kind of show that people who like it....want to own). I think ABC knows they've got a built in audience now.

There's only so much money to go around and the new kids need it more ;)

Good Evening, Outkasters!!!

So nice to see everyone, and our dear QE, how wonderful to see you. We saw A2M a day or two ago. Nice to see everyone checking in.

Let's see as to the question of how Charlie and Sawyer will treat each other. I don't think they will. I don't think it'll ever come up. I think in a lot of ways Sawyer will want to forget about it.

Besides he's going to have his hands full with Kate finding out about him and Ana. The question is not going to be what will Sawyer do or how will they treat each other. The question is, no will Charlie keep quiet. It would be just like him to spill the beans about Sawyer planning Sun's attack even though he was the one who actually did it. I personally would be more concerned about Charlie than I would Sawyer.


:hb2: HAPPY BIRTHDAY EVI! :hb2:


You know I was reading something not long ago about how there was supposed to be so much chemistry between Jack and Ana and there just wasn't any. It seems to me like the more I read the more I become totally convinced now our Skate relationship is going to turn out.

What do y'll think?

Huggs,
Lisa ;)

I certainly hope ABC is not losing faith in Lost - but it is still possible to do a good show without the same budget if it comes to that - I'd just be worried they'd kill off good characters left, right & centre, hopefully this isn't where they'd attempt to reduce amount spent anyway....

As long as there's Sawyer & Kate I could watch forever, what more do we really need?! :love:

ABC. . .:rant: !!!! Won't even show reruns this summer :ranting:!!!!


What more do we really need?
DESMOND. ('nuff said)

But James & Kate as a couple--definitely! :biggrin:


Hurry, Hurry, Hurry, Lisa! :book: lovers NEED to know!

ok as far as the whole Charlie/Sawyer scenario, i can't see it coming up unless CHARLIE spills it. It would be like him to save himself in a sense by basially blaming it all on Sawyer and not atking responsibility for his own actions. Sawyer may have planned it, which was wrong on soo many levels as Queenie said, but Charlie carrried it out. I don't think Sawyer would spill it for some reason. Don't think he's particularly proud of himself in any sense. He always seems to like to keep the heat squarely on himself though, he can handle the hate, Charlie can't.

As far as apologizing to Sun, i'd like to see it but i doubt he has that in him yet unfortunatly.

You know I was reading something not long ago about how there was supposed to be so much chemistry between Jack and Ana and there just wasn't any. It seems to me like the more I read the more I become totally convinced now our Skate relationship is going to turn out.

What do y'll think?



lisa the more i think about it the more confident i seem to get.. i'm not sure why. I just keep coming back to the fact that they took all this time to show Sawyers jealousy, and to point out his feelings for her. And they gave us that great hug, in the midst of all that angst. I just keep coming back to the fact that he loves her and they can't just shove that aside. And speaking of the hug i would positivly die to get a script for "?" or 3M. Just to see the notes on the hug and on the funeral scene when Kate's looking at him. I think it would provide some great insight there as well. :biggrin:

As much as I would like Sawyer to apologise to Sun for what happened, I don't see how it's possible any time soon unless the writers really want to stir things up and go to a dark place with Sawyer again. Why? Because of Jin. There is no way Jin would forgive him for that, even if Sun did. If the truth got out about Charlie and Sawyer conspiring to kidnap Sun you can be sure that however well-intentioned the apology was that it would fall on deaf ears and we would have a confrontation to deal with. This is the same guy who nearly drowned Mike for wearing a watch. Jin is a nice guy, but when it comes to his wife, and her safety? He can get real mean, real fast.

Fricksgurl: I alternate between being confidently optimistic that the writers won't let us down and will continue to develop this awesome pairing organically with a willingness to go with what works and move on from what is not; and being pessimistic and thinking they may try one last desperate stab at the Jate ship, despite how dull and stale and forced it has become to endure for many of us (not all, of course ;) )

But you are right. Not only have we had Kate open up to Sawyer in many ways (and even admit to people like Sun that she has feelings for Sawyer), we have had definite confirmation of Sawyers feelings (more so than even Jack in some ways - though not to Kate) with his 'I love her' declaration, and his blatant and sympathetically portrayed jealousy near the end of the season. So why did the writers go to so much trouble to show the audience how much Sawyer has fallen in love with Kate and yet is having difficulty dealing with it?

In many ways, I agree with Jaters that Sawyer is not an obstacle. Why would I say that? Because he himself seems to think he isn't worthy of Kate's love. He, himself seems to think that Jack is entitled, and the destined choice to win Kate's affections. He already feels defeated and frustrated by it, and I believe he hasn't fought as hard for Kate as he could have. Because he feels she deserves more than he thinks he can give her. What he doesn't know of course is that Jack is in no better a position to know. Only Kate can know what she needs, or wants from either of them.

Now of course, I believe Sawyer is wrong, and wish he would have a little faith in himself and his capacity to love and be loved in return. Alas, this is the struggle we are most likely going to be forced to watch over this season. For good or for bad.

Kate is still the key. Even though I would love to see Sawyer form alliances with other losties and forge an even stronger adversarial and yet brotherly bond with Jack, I still firmly believe that only Kate (at this stage) can get him to truly open up and be inspired to let go of some of his inner pain and rage.

Kate on the other hand is being shown a kind of acceptance which is not a form of condemnation or restriction. He seems to accept her flaws, and respect her right to make her own mistakes, and choose her own way. This is sooo important when it comes to helping someone form self confidence and self esteem. I firmly believe that Sawyer is the only person Kate can really be herself with, both strong and vulnerable, sinner and repentant, compassionate and yet cunning too.

Z- perfectly eloquent as usual ;)

In many ways, I agree with Jaters that Sawyer is not an obstacle. Why would I say that? Because he himself seems to think he isn't worthy of Kate's love. He, himself seems to think that Jack is entitled, and the destined choice to win Kate's affections. He already feels defeated and frustrated by it, and I believe he hasn't fought as hard for Kate as he could have. Because he feels she deserves more than he thinks he can give her. What he doesn't know of course is that Jack is in no better a position to know. Only Kate can know what she needs, or wants from either of them.

And I find this incredibly interesting as well...because in most love triangles, two people are vying for someone's affection, and the choice lies with the person in the middle. But in this case, although Sawyer's affection for Kate often leaks to the surface where she can see it...he's not actively trying to win her. I always feel like he's torn because he cares so much about her, and instinctively that makes him want her...but he wants to push her away because he's afraid of what that means. He may act jealous at times, but he hasn't tried to get Kate from being with Jack. In fact he often makes nasty comments regarding Kate and Jack's friendship that if anything should push Kate FURTHER towards Jack. But it really hasn't yet ;). I'm not saying Jate doesn't exist....just that Sawyer isn't just an obstacle thrown in to keep the two of them apart.

lisa the more i think about it the more confident i seem to get.. i'm not sure why. I just keep coming back to the fact that they took all this time to show Sawyers jealousy, and to point out his feelings for her. And they gave us that great hug, in the midst of all that angst. I just keep coming back to the fact that he loves her and they can't just shove that aside. And speaking of the hug i would positivly die to get a script for "?" or 3M. Just to see the notes on the hug and on the funeral scene when Kate's looking at him. I think it would provide some great insight there as well. :biggrin:

Me too fricks. As much as I try to tell my self, your just setting yourself up to be disappointed (raises hand--pessimist here, lol), more and more Im seeing reasons why I think they have that "real deal" factor. And more and more its becoming clear that Sawyer is the only man for Kate and vice versa. And by golly Im starting to feel more hopeful that this is how it will be. :)

In many ways, I agree with Jaters that Sawyer is not an obstacle. Why would I say that? Because he himself seems to think he isn't worthy of Kate's love. He, himself seems to think that Jack is entitled, and the destined choice to win Kate's affections. He already feels defeated and frustrated by it, and I believe he hasn't fought as hard for Kate as he could have. Because he feels she deserves more than he thinks he can give her. What he doesn't know of course is that Jack is in no better a position to know. Only Kate can know what she needs, or wants from either of them.

Now of course, I believe Sawyer is wrong, and wish he would have a little faith in himself and his capacity to love and be loved in return. Alas, this is the struggle we are most likely going to be forced to watch over this season. For good or for bad.

Wow Zoriah, you nailed it. ITA. Time and time again we see Sawyer sabatoge things in order to keep his distance from people, especially Kate. And I think he feels unworthy of her love as well. I mean c'mon, hes a confidence man and a real Don Juan with the ladies. He should have no trouble getting Kate over to his side, but he doesnt go any further with her. Why? Because, a. She blindsides him. Hes never been in love, real love and he has no clue what hes getting himself into. and b. He doesnt feel he deserves her love, cause of the kind of person he is/was. Where the Jack/envy thing comes in, I beleive.

And I think once Sawyer realizes that he is indeed in love with Kate and she returns his feelings hes gonna be spooked big time. Getting ready for a roller coaster ride here, lol. But I think those 2 crazy kids can work things out. They just have to open up a little more.

I beleive in Sawyer too Zoriah. He needs to have more faith in himself. Perhaps if he had the chance to do more heroic type actions in s3, he will start to get some faith.

As far as the should Sawyer tell Sun? question, I dont know if he should now either. I think it may upset the balance. And I dont know if the ramifications for Sawyer telling her would be completely noble either. I could see him use it as a way to paint himself as the token 'bad guy' once again. In other words, I dont think hes ready for that yet. Maybe with Kates help he could be. :)

Morning Skaters :heart: Great thoughts everyone! As far as Sawyer appologizing to Sun, I'm not really sure how I feel about that. While it would be great to see him fess up to what he did and appologize and truly feel sorry, I can't help but think that it might make matters worse right now. He would loose what little connection he has with Jin and be the "bad guy" all over again. If he did though, I would want him to leave Charlie out of it like was said earlier. Charlie is the one who needs to fess up for his part. But, I agree Lisa that I would be more worried about Charlie spilling the beans on Sawyer.

At this point I am caustiously optimistic for our couple. I think things look good for them right now, but of course that could always change in a moments notice.:rolleyes:

ETA: Girlspy I love the quote in your sig. :D

As much as I would like Sawyer to apologise to Sun for what happened, I don't see how it's possible any time soon unless the writers really want to stir things up and go to a dark place with Sawyer again. Why? Because of Jin. There is no way Jin would forgive him for that, even if Sun did. If the truth got out about Charlie and Sawyer conspiring to kidnap Sun you can be sure that however well-intentioned the apology was that it would fall on deaf ears and we would have a confrontation to deal with. This is the same guy who nearly drowned Mike for wearing a watch. Jin is a nice guy, but when it comes to his wife, and her safety? He can get real mean, real fast.

You can say that again. Am I the only only who kind of misses that side of Jin a tinsy bit? :blush:

Just me, huh? :redface:

Anywho...in regards to Sawyer apologizing to Sun, I was thinking along the lines of it being more about Sun and Jin and the challenges you figure are going to effect their relationship. The circumstances in which Sawyer would apologize (ideally) would be some bumbling attempt to comfort Sun. I think he likes her...and depending on what shape his relationship with Kate is in...there just may be an unexpected moment of honesty between the two. I don't know...just a thought.


But you are right. Not only have we had Kate open up to Sawyer in many ways (and even admit to people like Sun that she has feelings for Sawyer), we have had definite confirmation of Sawyers feelings (more so than even Jack in some ways - though not to Kate) with his 'I love her' declaration, and his blatant and sympathetically portrayed jealousy near the end of the season. So why did the writers go to so much trouble to show the audience how much Sawyer has fallen in love with Kate and yet is having difficulty dealing with it?

Because Sawyer's their guinea pig character? Kidding, kidding. (kind of) Part of his struggle...part of his path of redemption will, without any doubt, be in dealing with his feelings for Kate.

In many ways, I agree with Jaters that Sawyer is not an obstacle. Why would I say that? Because he himself seems to think he isn't worthy of Kate's love. He, himself seems to think that Jack is entitled, and the destined choice to win Kate's affections. He already feels defeated and frustrated by it, and I believe he hasn't fought as hard for Kate as he could have. Because he feels she deserves more than he thinks he can give her. What he doesn't know of course is that Jack is in no better a position to know. Only Kate can know what she needs, or wants from either of them.

That and I think there's a matter of trust with Kate. If he lays all his cards on the table will she reciprocate his feelings or will she turn to Jack, whom he feels is more entitled, more worthy, and whom he suspects she will choose eventually? That's a lot to risk even if he wasn't inudated with as many issues that he has.

Now of course, I believe Sawyer is wrong, and wish he would have a little faith in himself and his capacity to love and be loved in return. Alas, this is the struggle we are most likely going to be forced to watch over this season. For good or for bad.

What a beautiful struggle it's likely to be, though. ;)

Kate is still the key. Even though I would love to see Sawyer form alliances with other losties and forge an even stronger adversarial and yet brotherly bond with Jack, I still firmly believe that only Kate (at this stage) can get him to truly open up and be inspired to let go of some of his inner pain and rage.

Kate on the other hand is being shown a kind of acceptance which is not a form of condemnation or restriction. He seems to accept her flaws, and respect her right to make her own mistakes, and choose her own way. This is sooo important when it comes to helping someone form self confidence and self esteem. I firmly believe that Sawyer is the only person Kate can really be herself with, both strong and vulnerable, sinner and repentant, compassionate and yet cunning too.

Ah, so beautifully stated, Zoriah. Nothing else I can add to this. :clapping:

OMG all of you were just so eloquent on that subject that i thnk I blew a fuse in my brain reading it all.

But you are right. Not only have we had Kate open up to Sawyer in many ways (and even admit to people like Sun that she has feelings for Sawyer), we have had definite confirmation of Sawyers feelings (more so than even Jack in some ways - though not to Kate) with his 'I love her' declaration, and his blatant and sympathetically portrayed jealousy near the end of the season. So why did the writers go to so much trouble to show the audience how much Sawyer has fallen in love with Kate and yet is having difficulty dealing with it?


That's what makes me optimistic Zoriah they have to deal with that. Sooner or latter Kate is gonna have to deal with it. I don't how long he's gonna before he just combusts frrom it. And something tells me if she knew how he felt it might make a HUGE difference right now cause she wants him to say something, anything real for once.

In many ways, I agree with Jaters that Sawyer is not an obstacle. Why would I say that? Because he himself seems to think he isn't worthy of Kate's love. He, himself seems to think that Jack is entitled, and the destined choice to win Kate's affections. He already feels defeated and frustrated by it, and I believe he hasn't fought as hard for Kate as he could have. Because he feels she deserves more than he thinks he can give her. What he doesn't know of course is that Jack is in no better a position to know. Only Kate can know what she needs, or wants from either of them.

Now of course, I believe Sawyer is wrong, and wish he would have a little faith in himself and his capacity to love and be loved in return. Alas, this is the struggle we are most likely going to be forced to watch over this season. For good or for bad.


Beautiful... I think your right there, he looks at Jack and thinks why would want me when she could have him. He's always thought Jack better for her. There are many indications that he conceded her to Jack in a sense, like Queenie pointed out, he hasn't fought all that hard for her really. Which is why he really isn't obstacle in that sense for Jate. He's more of an obstacle to himself, like girlpsy says he keeps sabatoging himself all the time with her and the others. He has no faith that he has anything to offer her at all.

And what a beautiful struggle it will be to watch him deal with his feelings of love for her and his own feelings of unworthiness, his continued fight against his own bruried goodness, which he pretends dosen't exist. He is worthy of being loved he just dosen't believe enough in himself to accept it.

That and I think there's a matter of trust with Kate. If he lays all his cards on the table will she reciprocate his feelings or will she turn to Jack, whom he feels is more entitled, more worthy, and whom he suspects she will choose eventually? That's a lot to risk even if he wasn't inudated with as many issues that he has.


ITA Darbi Sawyer has severe trust issues with people, and i don't htink he trusts her completly either. He sees the distinct possililty that he could tell her how he feels and she'd go to Jack anyways. I don't think he'll ever feel secure about her at all unless he's sure there's nothing left with Jack. And the way he's lived his life dosen't build to trusting anyone, he's lived his life in betrayel and you'll see it everywhere as a result. Opening up your feelings is a tremendous risk even for a well-adjusted person, but for someone like Sawyer whose spent his whole life protecting himself it's an enormous risk. One he's terrified of taking, with good reason. Cause not only is he capable of wreaking havoc, so has she, to both guys... so you can understand the hestiation there.

ITA on the whole Sun thing, not a good idea as far as Jin's reaction... nothing but bad will come out of that.

What a beautiful struggle it's likely to be, though. ;)

ITA Darbi! I for one can't wait to see him go through this struggle and realize just what Kate does mean to him. And since this season is supposed to be heavy in romance, I think we'll get a good look at this struggle very soon. Hopefully it will lead to some beautiful Skate moments as well as some intriguing character development for Sawyer. :wub:

Hi skaters my new manip
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/1557/sanstitre2es7.jpg
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/9041/sanstitre2gg5.png
http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/5792/sanstitre1wq6.jpg
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/9615/bandream1fz2.jpg
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/184/bandream2nh2.jpg

and new spoiler, I think it's good for us


http://www.abcmedianet.com/pressrel/dispDNR.html?id=080406_06
Jack will be becomes dark I think and Jack and Juliet it's true yayyyyyyyy ^^
(http://www.abcmedianet.com/pressrel/dispDNR.html?id=080406_06)

"Jack, Kate and Sawyer open the season in captivity as prisoners of "The Others." Just who these "Others" are and what they want are primary questions Season Three will explore. Michael Emerson joins the regular cast in his ongoing role as Henry Gale, leader of "The Others." Romance looms on the horizon as Jack's interests veer towards a mysterious new woman, whose motives may be questionable."

Well guys, straight from the PTB's mouth this time. It's official!!! ABC is really hyping certain things up which hopefully will help give us an idea of where they are headed. Seems like they are committed to trying to get this new romance thing with Jack going full steam ahead. That doesn't mean it will be long term or even that Kate won't chose Jack, but it sure shows that Jack's interest is going to be definitely diverted somewhat.

I also love this last part, which surely pertains to Jack:
The band of friends, family, enemies and strangers must continue to work together against the cruel weather and harsh terrain if they want to stay alive. But as they have discovered during their 60-plus days on the island, danger and mystery loom behind every corner, and those they thought could be trusted may turn against them. Even heroes have secrets.

Of course I don't want Jack to be darkened up just to make him more interesting, since people seem to love Sawyer and his bad *** dark side. But I do like the idea of showing that Jack shouldn't throw stones and judge people when he's done stuff he's not proud of himself. I still would love the idea of him joining the Others at the end of the mini arc, and while some characters will think he betrayed them, of course it will turn out that he was right, and the Others have a good agenda and aren't all bad. Maybe.


Anyways, fantastic spoilers and I am even more excited to see what happens with this season!

Z- perfectly eloquent as usual ;)

Absolutely - loved your post too Zoriah :biggrin:

And I find this incredibly interesting as well...because in most love triangles, two people are vying for someone's affection, and the choice lies with the person in the middle. But in this case, although Sawyer's affection for Kate often leaks to the surface where she can see it...he's not actively trying to win her. I always feel like he's torn because he cares so much about her, and instinctively that makes him want her...but he wants to push her away because he's afraid of what that means. He may act jealous at times, but he hasn't tried to get Kate from being with Jack. In fact he often makes nasty comments regarding Kate and Jack's friendship that if anything should push Kate FURTHER towards Jack. But it really hasn't yet ;). I'm not saying Jate doesn't exist....just that Sawyer isn't just an obstacle thrown in to keep the two of them apart.

I agree that Sawyer has not actively tried to win Kate too and I also think Jack hasn't done this either, if anything he seems less inclined to give anything of himself to Kate to win her over. Sawyer does need to get his act together - I'd like to see him do something next season to raise his estimation in the eyes of the other characters and then accepting that he can do some good and maybe this giving him extra confidence in himself he can then woo Kate & work on fighting for her if he has to fight for her!

I'm cautiously optimistic too about the latest spoilers, I'm afraid to get too excited over them in case it doesn't happen the way they seem to predict, but they are great all the same :happy:

Although I keep swearing to myself I'm going "spoiler free" for S3...I keep getting suckered in to reading them anyway. Pitiful. I know. :blush:

Like you, Midnight, I'm remaining cautiously optomistic about the spoilers concerning everything in regards to the show. I just want to enjoy it despite what may happen or not happen.

Hi, I only wanted to tell you that I am a Jater with sympathy for you Skaters. I love Sawyer and would have no problem if Skate happened. Lost-forum doesn´t allow any visits of the other ship any more and I miss Skater friends and their different point of view. Will you allow me to slip in here now and then?

Sure. Welcome. :biggrin:

Why or what thread over on LF doesn't allow different shippers to visit?

They don´t allow to tell anything of the other ship´s opinion in any shipper thread. A friend of mine got banned for mentioning the other ship seems to see a different show. :confused:

I'm cautiously optimistic too about the latest spoilers, I'm afraid to get too excited over them in case it doesn't happen the way they seem to predict, but they are great all the same :happy:

:shesaid:

Me too...I do have one concern based on the recent leaks about the "new girl" for Jack. I do not want to see Sawyer get Kate by default i.e. because Jack is no longer interested in her. I really would like to see Kate make a clear choice between Jack and Sawyer. If she doesn't, I think Sawyer will feel that he is second best and that she would have choosen Jack (who he percieves as the "better" choice) had he been available. IMO they could script the storyline to protect their "hero's" image and not allow him to lose Kate to Sawyer -- so they will come up with a "new girl" for him and have him turn away from Kate. I don't know if I am saying this well, but I want Kate to choose between Jack and Sawyer.....clearly choosing Sawyer and then they can pair Jack up with someone else.

:wub: That said, I really do feel we Skaters have a lot of good stuff to look forward to in Season Three....finally!

They don´t allow to tell anything of the other ship´s opinion in any shipper thread. A friend of mine got banned for mentioning the other ship seems to see a different show. :confused:

Seems to be a lot of that going on over on LF lately.

Me too...I do have one concern based on the recent leaks about the "new girl" for Jack. I do not want to see Sawyer get Kate by default i.e. because Jack is no longer interested in her. I really would like to see Kate make a clear choice between Jack and Sawyer. If she doesn't, I think Sawyer will feel that he is second best and that she would have choosen Jack (who he percieves as the "better" choice) had he been available. IMO they could script the storyline to protect their "hero's" image and not allow him to lose Kate to Sawyer -- so they will come up with a "new girl" for him and have him turn away from Kate. I don't know if I am saying this well, but I want Kate to choose between Jack and Sawyer.....clearly choosing Sawyer and then they can pair Jack up with someone else.

:wub: That said, I really do feel we Skaters have a lot of good stuff to look forward to in Season Three....finally!

I hope that Kate chooses Sawyer regardless of what's happening with Jack too. My concern is that they'll do what it looks like is planned to do in order to make Kate jealous - I really hope this isn't the intention. But as it has been said before, hopefully they won't just drop Skate as they have been slowly building up the possibility of it with Sawyer's jealousy issues etc.
My motto: Jate never :shakehead:, Skate forever :inlove:

Playing devil's advocate for a moment. What if Kate's definitive, clear choice is Jack? How does this effect the relationship between her and Sawyer? Do they even maintain attempt to maintain a relationship of any sort?

:wavey:, Hufflepuff! Come by anytime!

And what a beautiful struggle it will be to watch him deal with his feelings of love for her and his own feelings of unworthiness, his continued fight against his own buried goodness, which he pretends doesn't exist. He is worthy of being loved, he just doesn't believe enough in himself to accept it.
Oh, what a brief, but beautiful and on-target description of James, fricksgurl! Thanks for sharing it.

I suspect James will come face to face with that buried goodness, and HAVE to accept it's there. Maybe that will come as Jack faces HIS buried "darkness," and comes to terms with it. But that's a discussion for the JuSt thread. . . .

It will be interesting to see how James and Kate (and Jack) deal with each other while in The Others' clutches. I suspect that the situation will drive this whole story/character arc down the road a bit--and things might even turn out far differently than any of them (or any of us!) suspected!

They don´t allow to tell anything of the other ship´s opinion in any shipper thread. A friend of mine got banned for mentioning the other ship seems to see a different show. :confused:
I think that's one of the things that is the most fascinating about LOST. That we all see thigns so differently. But do come visit us, Hufflepuff. We are pretty good here about seeing various sides to things and we have some good discussions.
100%
What if Kate's definitive, clear choice is Jack? How does this effect the relationship between her and Sawyer? Do they even maintain attempt to maintain a relationship of any sort? Good question. I think Kate would try, but Sawyer would be so hurt and devastated, he would just ignore her totally.

:book:
You know, this encyclopedia is full of information, but it's boring!!

Now, Lisa posting Chapter 19 of "Battleground Revisited". . .THAT would be a good read! :biggrin:

If Kate chose Jack, and I still think it's a possibility (I am not ruling out the writers throwing us a curveball of sorts)...then I think Sawyer would go on even a more self destructive path. Because despite wanting to accept what crumbs he thinks he deserves from Kate regarding friendship or romance, I don't think he could stand to know that she really was gunning for Jack all the way. He'd withdraw, make comments that would push her away, probably get drunk if there was booze available, maybe even try and do some things that would confirm in his mind the reasons why she didn't choose him, to reinforce that he never had a chance. Because you've gotta believe that at the moment the tiniest part of him still hopes, still wishes to be chosen, even though he thinks he's not worthy.

Eventually though, I do think he'd get over it enough to be tentative friends with her again, especially if there were circumstances where Kate was endangered or wanting to risk herself. I can see him being the type who would love from a distance, and continue to hurt inside but be fatalistic about it.

Ok heres my interested take on the spoilers here

It says clearly that Jack pursues Juliet, not the other way around, now, and this may be wishful thinking on my part, but if Kate 'chose' him, why would he pursue another woman? Unless he believes Kate is lost to him in some way. If Jack is the one going after Juliet then, well draw your own conclusions here... I'm not going to cause we've been duped before but the choice of words is interesting here.. Which maybe is adding to my ill advised optimism LOL

As far as the question goes, i'd fear for what would happen to Sawyer if that was the case. I think he'd get worse, not better if he felt like he'd played all along. I'm gonna go with Zoriah's answer cause it was so beautifully stated :biggrin:

If Kate chose Jack, and I still think it's a possibility (I am not ruling out the writers throwing us a curveball of sorts)...then I think Sawyer would go on even a more self destructive path. Because despite wanting to accept what crumbs he thinks he deserves from Kate regarding friendship or romance, I don't think he could stand to know that she really was gunning for Jack all the way. He'd withdraw, make comments that would push her away, probably get drunk if there was booze available, maybe even try and do some things that would confirm in his mind the reasons why she didn't choose him, to reinforce that he never had a chance. Because you've gotta believe that at the moment the tiniest part of him still hopes, still wishes to be chosen, even though he thinks he's not worthy.

Eventually though, I do think he'd get over it enough to be tentative friends with her again, especially if there were circumstances where Kate was endangered or wanting to risk herself. I can see him being the type who would love from a distance, and continue to hurt inside but be fatalistic about it.

Ugh! I hate to do it, but I have to agree with you about Sawyer's response if Kate were to choose Jack.

My fervent hope, however, is he won't remain in that self-destructive cycle for long. Hopefully, someone...Sayid, Mr. Eko, Locke...heck, Desmond will see what he's doing to himself and will objectively offer some advice that he accepts. The whole, brooding, unrequited, pissed off lover thing is a waste of Sawyer's character, in my opinion if that's ALL we get out of his character in S3. Don't get me wrong, I believe it would be a beautiful struggle, no doubt, but the writers have always implied that there's more to Sawyer than meets the eye...it's about high time we start to see the outworkings of that in regards to the dealing with the affairs of the camp, not just in his relationship with Kate.

Awesome manips lyly ;) Keep up the great work. Reminds me of Dirty Dancing. :)


I also love this last part, which surely pertains to Jack:
The band of friends, family, enemies and strangers must continue to work together against the cruel weather and harsh terrain if they want to stay alive. But as they have discovered during their 60-plus days on the island, danger and mystery loom behind every corner, and those they thought could be trusted may turn against them. Even heroes have secrets.

Of course I don't want Jack to be darkened up just to make him more interesting, since people seem to love Sawyer and his bad *** dark side. But I do like the idea of showing that Jack shouldn't throw stones and judge people when he's done stuff he's not proud of himself. I still would love the idea of him joining the Others at the end of the mini arc, and while some characters will think he betrayed them, of course it will turn out that he was right, and the Others have a good agenda and aren't all bad. Maybe.


Anyways, fantastic spoilers and I am even more excited to see what happens with this season!

Hehe, yeah Zoriah, I am inclined to agree...

I think like everyone else, the Others are gonna be grey people. Neither good nor bad, which will make it harder for us to pick sides. And harder for someone like Jack too ;).

And I am very excited that the Jack/Juliette made the official press release, its not just speculation anymore. :D

And onto the question, what if Kate chose Jack? Im not gonna say Sawyer would be a shell of a person, cause I think he deserves more credit than that. But knowing that Kate chose Jack over him would just re-emphasize the notion that hes not good enough. And I dont think those kinds of thoughts will make him want to be a good person. You tell a person something often enough, they start to beleive it, and I think Sawyer already beleives that hes not a good person, so if he had that kind of affirmation from Kate, he would probably start acting like it. I do still see a possible redemption for him with or without Kate, but I think with Kates help, he would have an easier time with it.

And as far as them being friends after something like that happened. I doubt it. Atleast not for awhile. If I had someone chose another girl over me, and gave me reason to beleive I wasnt good enough for them, I sure wouldnt be calling them up on the phone to just hang out.

Whoever Kate doesnt chose, will take a blow for sure.

But with this new Juliette person coming aboard, Im thinking more and more that shes there to soften that blow for Jack.
;)

Good Morning, outkasters...

I have to take off and do some errands today but I did want to tell you all that Chapter 19 is up at Surreality...

http://z11.invisionfree.com/Fuselage_Fiction/index.php?showforum=16

I'll post it on the UK board later, but it seems to be down right now...hope it doesn't stay that way...

And hopefully before the weekend's out, Chapter 20 will be up...

I'll check back this evening and read what all I've missed.

Huggs,
Lisa ;)

Apparently you can ask cast questions via USA Today.
http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2006-08-03-lost-cast-questions_x.htm

If Kate chose Jack, and I still think it's a possibility (I am not ruling out the writers throwing us a curveball of sorts)...then I think Sawyer would go on even a more self destructive path. Because despite wanting to accept what crumbs he thinks he deserves from Kate regarding friendship or romance, I don't think he could stand to know that she really was gunning for Jack all the way. He'd withdraw, make comments that would push her away, probably get drunk if there was booze available, maybe even try and do some things that would confirm in his mind the reasons why she didn't choose him, to reinforce that he never had a chance. Because you've gotta believe that at the moment the tiniest part of him still hopes, still wishes to be chosen, even though he thinks he's not worthy.

Eventually though, I do think he'd get over it enough to be tentative friends with her again, especially if there were circumstances where Kate was endangered or wanting to risk herself. I can see him being the type who would love from a distance, and continue to hurt inside but be fatalistic about it.

Can't say that I'd say any differently either - it's inconceivable that Sawyer would be anything but devastated & he'd come out with the smart comments to Kate as if he hated her but if it came down to it and Kate needed help or someone to back her up on some important detail, then I think Sawyer would still be the one there for her - this would happen 'cos he'd still love her even though his heart would be broken. :broken_heart: I think my heart would be broken for him too if this happened & I'd still live in hope that Kate would come to her senses & realise she'd made a big mistake in choosing the wrong man.
100%

I believe it would be a beautiful struggle, no doubt, but the writers have always implied that there's more to Sawyer than meets the eye...it's about high time we start to see the outworkings of that in regards to the dealing with the affairs of the camp, not just in his relationship with Kate.

:shesaid: Definitely ITA, regardless of whether Kate is 'with him' or not :dots:

You're keeping the suspense up Lisa, looking forward to the next chapter of Battlefield Revisited.

I think Sawyer´s character is developing more and more because he is no more only the bad guy who tries to get Kate into his tent. It is great to see how much potential James has with interactions to more other castaways and getting involved in important activities for the group. IMO Sawyer is scared to death of any emotional relationship while on the other hand he needs love and friendship so badly! Watching the sad and lonely expression on his face when he thinks nobody looks at him always makes me cry and wanting to comfort him. And what a hell of an acting of Josh Holloway! What he can express without words is amazing! I hope it is ok for you to post this. Not everywhere users are allowed to express something about the actor and the character in the same thread.
What I honestly hope is that all three parts of the triangle will get happy, no matter how.

hufflepuff that was beautifuly stated, and that is not gonna get you in trouble here, you can say nice things about Josh, we do all the time. :biggrin:

It is amazing to see the way he portrays the conflict of someone who acts like he dosen't want or need love and friendship, but looks so damn lonely and hurt when no one pays attention. I think Sawyer more than anyone on that island needs people to care about him, he's had so little of it in his life. He wants it but is so scared of it at the same time. Josh does a beautiful job of portraying that.

Hufflepuff, feel free to lap on accolades for Josh's acting ability anytime. We do. ;)I was mentioning over on FF how subtle Josh's facial expressions were in 'The Moth' when Kate told him she pitied him. The hurt was so restricted to his eyes, so brief before he recoverd with a cocky smile you almost miss it.

Hufflepuff, feel free to lap on accolades for Josh's acting ability anytime. We do. ;)I was mentioning over on FF how subtle Josh's facial expressions were in 'The Moth' when Kate told him she pitied him. The hurt was so restricted to his eyes, so brief before he recoverd with a cocky smile you almost miss it.

OMG Darbi i just watched that scene again recently and you are so right about that. I keep remembering the subtle changes of expression in the campfire scene in TLC. I've seen such a wide variety of emotions displayed with just a look. You see the hurt and the disgust with himself that he tried to cover with his snarky tone. And it's all in the eyes like you said. And at the end when he was talking to Charlie, the look on his face just killed me there honestly. I don't think he gets nearly enough credit for the excellent work he does.

I think Sawyer´s character is developing more and more because he is no more only the bad guy who tries to get Kate into his tent. It is great to see how much potential James has with interactions to more other castaways and getting involved in important activities for the group. IMO Sawyer is scared to death of any emotional relationship while on the other hand he needs love and friendship so badly! Watching the sad and lonely expression on his face when he thinks nobody looks at him always makes me cry and wanting to comfort him. And what a hell of an acting of Josh Holloway! What he can express without words is amazing! I hope it is ok for you to post this. Not everywhere users are allowed to express something about the actor and the character in the same thread.
What I honestly hope is that all three parts of the triangle will get happy, no matter how.

I can't say that I ever saw Sawyer as the bad guy who tries to get Kate into his tent, could always see beyond the front that he has shown. It has been good to see him getting involved more with the rest of the group though & I hope this happens more next season. Josh himself has said that his character wants to love & to be loved but needs to realise that more & I agree with you that the possibility of love seems to frighten him although he needs it too.
ITA about Josh's acting abilities - what I love about his acting is the very use of his eyes in portraying Sawyer's emotions, it is very noteworthy & if he is given even more screen time I'm sure it would be award-winning stuff :1smiling:

OMG Darbi i just watched that scene again recently and you are so right about that. I keep remembering the subtle changes of expression in the campfire scene in TLC. I've seen such a wide variety of emotions displayed with just a look. You see the hurt and the disgust with himself that he tried to cover with his snarky tone. And it's all in the eyes like you said. And at the end when he was talking to Charlie, the look on his face just killed me there honestly. I don't think he gets nearly enough credit for the excellent work he does.

He does it again later in that same episode when he tells Kate right before she runs off to the caves, "Look at this way. Now you have someone else to pity." Next to Yunjin, who is just masterful in her subtle facial expressions...Josh is right up there with her.

Josh is so good with the Sawyer angst, not just relating to Skate, but especially when in scenes with Kate. You can just see the conflict, the hurt, the longing to be accepted and not tossed away and yet the moments of self protection too when he comes back with some hurtful dig.

The writers/producers seem to be utilising this with their scenes showing Sawyer's jealsousy and feelings towards Kate sympathetically. Remember the scene with him feeding vincent and looking lonely when Jack and Kate hadn't returned from the jungle? They are definitely showing us in many ways that Sawyer has deep romantic feelings for Kate that he is trying to cope with.

What I'd like to see more of is Kate showing some jealousy/more commitment to her feelings for Sawyer. Right now it's as if she knows she can turn to him when Jack doesn't want her around.

Sawyer´s personality and Josh´s amazing acting is not given enough respect by reducing him to a part of the triangle. He definately has true feelings for Kate too deep for to consider an one-night-stand. But a serious relationship scares James to death. I am under the impression that Sawyer a long time ago stopped effords to get Kate.

right Zoriah i want to see some reaction from Kate myself. I don't thinks she's ever felt any real threat when it comes to him in that department. I mean she did with Jack when he was hanging around Ana but really, when has she had any competition for Sawyers feelings at all. She's knows he's always there, always aouund and therefore feels secure in that fact. It's why i really want to see her reaction to the whole Sana thing, cause if her curiousity about Sawyers reaction to all is any indication it could be very interesting when she finds out that he turned in a sense to someone else while she was off with Jack. Maybe she'll realize she didn't have him as tightly wrapped up as the thought she did, which might spure some action and/or admission on her part.

and hufflepuff alot of us agree that he hasn't given as much effort as he could cause he believes her to be out of his reach in that sense. I..e that's she's Jacks girl.. which isn't the case yet.

What I'd like to see more of is Kate showing some jealousy/more commitment to her feelings for Sawyer. Right now it's as if she knows she can turn to him when Jack doesn't want her around.

Exactly. Kate, for the most part has it pretty easy with Sawyer. He's always accessable. I, too, would like to see her have to deal with Sawyer not being as readily available when she's on a Jack break.

What I'd like to see more of is Kate showing some jealousy/more commitment to her feelings for Sawyer. Right now it's as if she knows she can turn to him when Jack doesn't want her around.

I think Kate knows to a certain degree that she can have Sawyer if she wants & I think she'd want him more if he presented more of a challenge for her - I wonder if finding about Sana might make her realise that she does indeed want him? As it usually happens for most of us at the beg. of a relationship or at the possibility of a relationship, we want the other person more if we know we can't just have them, even if we really like that person to begin with - does this make sense? Maybe we'll see Kate's jealousy when she hears about Ana-Lucia and Sawyer ?

... I see that Fricksgurl and Darbi have replied since I read Zoriah's post & you've said pretty much what I was trying to say too!

I think Kate knows to a certain degree that she can have Sawyer if she wants & I think she'd want him more if he presented more of a challenge for her - I wonder if finding about Sana might make her realise that she does indeed want him? As it usually happens for most of us at the beg. of a relationship or at the possibility of a relationship, we want the other person more if we know we can't just have them, even if we really like that person to begin with - does this make sense? Maybe we'll see Kate's jealousy when she hears about Ana-Lucia and Sawyer ?

... I see that Fricksgurl and Darbi have replied since I read Zoriah's post & you've said pretty much what I was trying to say too!

I think you're right. Kate's going to have whatever reaction she's going to have about the Sana incident. It's likely not to be a good reaction, nor an unpredictable one. However, Ana Lucia's dead, and she doesn't have to deal with the awkwardness of seeing her around camp all the time. What would be interesting to see is Kate having to deal with a Sawyer who doesn't go about avoiding her, in fact, he's very cordial, but overt flirting, banter and playful teasing...gone.

OMG Darbi I just watched that scene again recently and you are so right about that. I keep remembering the subtle changes of expression in the campfire scene in TLC. I've seen such a wide variety of emotions displayed with just a look. You see the hurt and the disgust with himself that he tried to cover with his snarky tone. And it's all in the eyes like you said. And at the end when he was talking to Charlie, the look on his face just killed me there honestly. I don't think he gets nearly enough credit for the excellent work he does.

:shesaid:
I have always thought the I Never scene was incredible. Watching Josh take that scene from the light hearted game that was going on -- to a place where it was no longer a game at all was amazing. As much as I loved their kiss, IMO "I Never" showed us the most emotionally charged interaction they have had so far. It turned serious so quickly and the depth their emotional desire to push each other to the limit was written all over their faces. Again, no music or tricky camera shots were needed, just the raw honesty that Josh and Evi brought to the table.

Watching their faces change as they shared their secrets was more intimate than sex. She pushed him to admit he had "blamed a boar" because he couldn't deal with his "issues", he got even by making her admit she had wanted spend time with him. She came back at him with the letter and his "baggage", he thought for a moment and you can see him decided to say "I never killed a man", and then you see the stunned expression on Kate's face. Evi does a great job of letting us watch the conflict going on inside, as Kate stuggles with her answer. You can see her thinking about lying, comprending that somehow he already knows and then looking at him for a reaction, expecting judgment as she drinks. What Josh does next is as fine a piece of acting as there is...he surprises Kate (and us) by sadly drinking too.

BTW, I have alway thought there was a look of real disappointment that crossed Sawyer's face for a moment when Kate admitted to having been married.

:wub: Let's face it, they are simply stunning together.

I think you're right. Kate's going to have whatever reaction she's going to have about the Sana incident. It's likely not to be a good reaction, nor an unpredictable one. However, Ana Lucia's dead, and she doesn't have to deal with the awkwardness of seeing her around camp all the time. What would be interesting to see is Kate having to deal with a Sawyer who doesn't go about avoiding her, in fact, he's very cordial, but overt flirting, banter and playful teasing...gone.

Definatly think that would have the desired effect wouldn't you say? i would love to see her trying to figure that one out. Something tells me that would bother her to no end.

losttvfan :biggrin: brilliant look at the 'I Never" game, definatly a watershed moment for them. Went from being cute and playful to downright serious very quickly didn't it? A great scene with great acting, they both nailed to so well.

and he did have a funny look when she said that didn't he? wonder what that was about.

I think you're right. Kate's going to have whatever reaction she's going to have about the Sana incident. It's likely not to be a good reaction, nor an unpredictable one. However, Ana Lucia's dead, and she doesn't have to deal with the awkwardness of seeing her around camp all the time. What would be interesting to see is Kate having to deal with a Sawyer who doesn't go about avoiding her, in fact, he's very cordial, but overt flirting, banter and playful teasing...gone.

That would be perfect Darbi - of course it's true that as Ana-Lucia is dead she wouldn't represent a threat anymore to Kate's affections for Sawyer, but if Sawyer was just plain ol' friendly with her and no more, then she'd have to think about why & if his feelings for her had changed... and it should definitely work well in Sawyer's favour then I reckon - that was good thinking Darbi ;)

BTW, I have alway thought there was a look of real disappointment that crossed Sawyer's face for a moment when Kate admitted to having been married.

I actually thought Sawyer was quite intrigued by the fact that she was married previously

:wub: Let's face it, they are simply stunning together.

Truer words were never spoken. They are defintely stunning, captivating, intriguing, brillant...etc together

Sawyer is so important for Kate! With him life is easy! They have fun together. I love the scene as they were swimming in the lake before noticing the dead bodies. Sawyer and Kate were happy and careless like children. Everybody on the island so badly needs some rest to come over their post-traumatic stress. James provides this for everybody who lets him.
There are moments when I am really angry with Kate. After the Hunting Party when Jack ignored her and Sawyer tried to cheer her up every time Jack came in sight Kate completely ignored James smiling at Jack. Sawyer did deserve a better treatment! But Kate´s actions tell me it is Jack she wants what is the reason for me to be a Jater. Sawyer knows that at least since "The Moth" I think.
Sawyer deserves someone whose first choice he is and I can´t see Kate as this woman. By the way I am convinced James was talking about Cassidy, not Kate as he said:"I love her."
Please tell me if I go too far by expressing my point of view. I don´t want to be annoying. Perhaps you don´t understand my very careful acting but I got a warning on LF because in a review to a Skate fic I love I mentioned I am a Jater (what everybody there knows).

Definatly think that would have the desired effect wouldn't you say? i would love to see her trying to figure that one out. Something tells me that would bother her to no end.

losttvfan :biggrin: brilliant look at the 'I Never" game, definatly a watershed moment for them. Went from being cute and playful to downright serious very quickly didn't it? A great scene with great acting, they both nailed to so well.

and he did have a funny look when she said that didn't he? wonder what that was about.

I love the 'I Never' game too, definitely one of Skate's best scenes ever.
I noticed that look Sawyer gave too, I also took it as maybe a look of something he had not expected Kate to say & a want to know more about it - remember Kate responded to the look by saying "it didn't last long" if I remember rightly.
I think Kate was already under his skin at that time, you can just see she had totally captivated him during that episode!

Sawyer is so important for Kate! With him life is easy! They have fun together. I love the scene as they were swimming in the lake before noticing the dead bodies. Sawyer and Kate were happy and careless like children. Everybody on the island so badly needs some rest to come over their post-traumatic stress. James provides this for everybody who lets him.
There are moments when I am really angry with Kate. After the Hunting Party when Jack ignored her and Sawyer tried to cheer her up every time Jack came in sight Kate completely ignored James smiling at Jack. Sawyer did deserve a better treatment! But Kate´s actions tell me it is Jack she wants what is the reason for me to be a Jater. Sawyer knows that at least since "The Moth" I think.
Sawyer deserves someone whose first choice he is and I can´t see Kate as this woman. By the way I am convinced James was talking about Cassidy, not Kate as he said:"I love her."Please tell me if I go too far by expressing my point of view. I don´t want to be annoying. Perhaps you don´t understand my very careful acting but I got a warning on LF because in a review to a Skate fic I love I mentioned I am a Jater (what everybody there knows).


That scene in THP is probably my least favourite scenes involving Kate. I thought it was nonsense and completely disgusting the way she chased after and begged Jack for any little bit of attention he was willing to throw at her. Also I will have to disagree with you saying that he wasn't talking about Kate. In that scene it makes no sense for him to say that he loves Cassidy to Jack, when its been Kate that has been with him, and it was Kate that got him to take that pill. In TLC the parallel was clear to me that he conned two women he loves. He cons them despite how he feels about them. I think Sawyer might have loved Cassidy, but I think it was Kate he was talking about. In fact in the recap for that episode on abc.com, it states Sawyer was calling out for Kate. So calling out for Kate, but saying and meaning "I love her" to Cassidy makes little sense to me

By the way I am convinced James was talking about Cassidy, not Kate as he said:"I love her."


I'm sure Sawyer wasn't referring to Cassidy when he said "i love her" - for one thing, he had told Kate during the "I Never" game that he had never been in love before. For another, seemingly it is quoted (I think on the DVD set) that Sawyer admits he loves Kate, so it seems that TPTB see it as Kate being the one he loves.
I don't mind your opinion Hufflepuff by the way, I just may not agree with all you say!

MSF you are definatly right on the money, i think she really had him by then, poor guy, never knew what hit him. It sadi in the script that he was definatly 'charmed' by her. And i do think that was curiousity more than anything else when it came to the marriage thing, he wasn't excepting it.

Btw i was talkin about this on ABC but i love their little acknowledgement of their kiss in that scene. Sawyer says with the cutest look in his face "for example, i've never kissed a man.... now you drink.. cause you've kissed a man.." The script pointing out that his implication was 'that man being him' And Kate just smiles, rolls her eyes and drinks. In that that short space of time, they acknowleged, show they were ok about it and that niether one of them regretted it. A beautiful moment :biggrin:

In TLC the parallel was clear to me that he conned two women he loves. He cons them despite how he feels about them. I think Sawyer might have loved Cassidy, but I think it was Kate he was talking about. In fact in the recap for that episode on abc.com, it states Sawyer was calling out for Kate. So calling out for Kate, but saying and meaning "I love her" to Cassidy makes little sense to me


Luanne that's what i got out of that too.. the parallel was clear as day. I think he loved Cassidy too but lack the capacity to really understand those feelings and did his version of running away by finishing the con. The difference with Kate is that he can't run away this time... he's stuck. And yes i believe he was talking about Kate, no other scenario makes sense to

and Huffleputf it's ok to express your opinion here, i may not agree with all of your points but you've always been respectful when your here so no worries :biggrin:

:shesaid:
I have always thought the "I Never" scene was incredible. Watching Josh take that scene from the light hearted game that was going on -- to a place where it was no longer a game at all was amazing. As much as I loved their kiss, IMO "I Never" showed us the most emotionally charged interaction they have had so far. It turned serious so quickly and the depth their emotional desire to push each other to the limit was written all over their faces. Again, no music or tricky camera shots were needed, just the raw honesty that Josh and Evi brought to the table.

Watching their faces change as they shared their secrets was more intimate than sex. She pushed him to admit he had "blamed a boar" because he couldn't deal with his "issues", he got even by making her admit she had wanted spend time with him. She came back at him with the letter and his "baggage", he thought for a moment and you can see him decided to say "I never killed a man", and then you see the stunned expression on Kate's face. Evi does a great job of letting us watch the conflict going on inside, as Kate stuggles with her answer. You can see her thinking about lying, comprending that somehow he already knows and then looking at him for a reaction, expecting judgment as she drinks. What Josh does next is as fine a piece of acting as there is...he surprises Kate (and us) by sadly drinking too.

BTW, I have alway thought there was a look of real disappointment that crossed Sawyer's face for a moment when Kate admitted to having been married.

:wub: Let's face it, they are simply stunning together.

The 'I Never' scene was the first time I really paid much attention to Kate, and how much I enjoyed their interactions. You're right, they are simply stunning in that scene. I love the subtle change from playful to deadly serious in a span of seconds. Like you said, no tricky camera shots or music...just the crackle of that fire burning (physically and metaphorically) between them...and a whole lot of weighty secrets shared.Perfect.

I was under the impression feverish Sawyer didn´t know it was Kate caring for him. Sure I might be wrong but as a real Sawyer-lover I honestly hope he is not really in love with Kate because I think he will not get her. I would have no problem if he did but I don´t believe it, sorry!

That scene in THP is probably my least favourite scenes involving Kate. I thought it was nonsense and completely disgusting the way she chased after and begged Jack for any little bit of attention he was willing to throw at her. Also I will have to disagree with you saying that he wasn't talking about Kate. In that scene it makes no sense for him to say that he loves Cassidy to Jack, when its been Kate that has been with him, and it was Kate that got him to take that pill. In TLC the parallel was clear to me that he conned two women he loves. He cons them despite how he feels about them. I think Sawyer might have loved Cassidy, but I think it was Kate he was talking about. In fact in the recap for that episode on abc.com, it states Sawyer was calling out for Kate. So calling out for Kate, but saying and meaning "I love her" to Cassidy makes little sense to me

:mushy:Lisa: Please tell us you have the script notes for that scene. It would be nice to really KNOW for sure he meant Kate when he said "I love her".

:crush: BTW, Jack sure thought he meant Kate and even said later to Sawyer "I know, you love her". Jack sure doesn't know anything about Cassidy.

The 'I Never' scene was the first time I really paid much attention to Kate, and how much I enjoyed their interactions. You're right, they are simply stunning in that scene. I love the subtle change from playful to deadly serious in a span of seconds. Like you said, no tricky camera shots or music...just the crackle of that fire burning (physically and metaphorically) between them...and a whole lot of weighty secrets shared.Perfect.


This is one of the reasons I have fallen in love with this couple. We don't need the usual external trappings or devices in order to see just how deeply these two connect. No need for fanfare and big signs to anvil us with realising these two are sharing something intimate and real.

What other pairing has had the same kind of vulnerable and charged honesty? A true baring of souls. And not with pre-judgement or expectation...just the veil coming down and allowing the other to glimpse an aspect of them they usually hide from the world.



Losttvfan: Wasn't it obvious? Please remember that Cassidy didn't exist for the audience for another four episodes (and has never been mentioned before or after), plus we have Jack's 'I know you love her' line in THP between them too. The ABC episode recap says he asks for Kate and reveals his feelings for her. As did the TV guide description, as does the Season 2 Episode description on the back cover. I think we have ample evidence both on and off screen that Sawyer (though feverish) was in fact admitting his feelings for Kate to Jack.