:mushy:Lisa: Please tell us you have the script notes for that scene. It would be nice to really KNOW for sure he meant Kate when he said "I love her".

:crush: BTW, Jack sure thought he meant Kate and even said later to Sawyer "I know, you love her". Jack sure doesn't know anything about Cassidy.

i haven't seen a script out for that one yet unfortunatly, i would like too, as well as for "?" and 3M as well.

If you watch the pill scene, as we all have MANY times, watch his reaction when Kate says his name, and when she says 'It's Kate" The way he sorta leaned back a bit showed an unconcious acknowledgement of her presence. I think the implication is that he was aware of her being there on some level, even if it seemed like a dream.
I'd like to see the script notes for that one too TBH

That is the huge problem! Jack is convinced Sawyer loves Kate and he has no chance against him. Sawyer is convinced "Girls always want the doctor"(The Moth). So he sees no chance getting Kate. If it wasn´t so sad it would be funny: Both men believe the other is the better one they can´t beat.

Jack may know Sawyer loves Kate, but I don't think he thinks Sawyer deserves Kate's love, nor am I sold on whether Jack thinks Kate loves Sawyer back. He's still competing for her affection or we would not have gotten the 'I'm not' reply. I haven't seen any evidence in what he says or does that suggests Jack thinks Sawyer is the 'better one' for Kate.

This is one of the reasons I have fallen in love with this couple. We don't need the usual external trappings or devices in order to see just how deeply these two connect. No need for fanfare and big signs to anvil us with realising these two are sharing something intimate and real.

What other pairing has had the same kind of vulnerable and charged honesty? A true baring of souls. And not with pre-judgement or expectation...just the veil coming down and allowing the other to glimpse an aspect of them they usually hide from the world.
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Funny. These two are the epitome of hypocrites. They will bare their souls to one another, find solace in the others company, yet continue to deny each other the very thing they both long for with every fiber of their being. Sure, they flirt, tease and banter...it's fun, it's safe. No harm, no foul. Right. But they take one another for granted, use the other shamelessly for their own gain. Put their backs into the punches they throw (literally on one occassion) because of them are too chick **** to say..."I give" and actually deign to be good to each other.

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Funny. These two are the epitome of hypocrites. They will bare their souls to one another, find solace in the others company, yet continue to deny each other the very thing they both long for with every fiber of their being. Sure, they flirt, tease and banter...it's fun, it's safe. No harm, no foul. Right. But they take one another for granted, use the other shamelessly for their own gain. Put their backs into the punches they throw (literally on one occassion) because of them are too chick **** to say..."I give" and actually deign to be good to each other.

I think cause for them it's easier to do all those things than actually say something real to eachother for once. It's much easier to pretend to than put it all on the table, no risk there at all. But to admit they feel something for eachother, it's probably the hardest thing in the world for them to admit. They've both lived thier lives showing only what they want people to see, and the fact that they both can see through the bullcrap scares the living daylights out of both of them.

Analysing the characters and trying to guess what has happened to them pre island I assume in his highschool and college times Jack saw smart guys like Sawyer get all the girls. Sawyer got every woman in his bed but none wanted to stay with him. They went back to their doctor´s husbands.

I think cause for them it's easier to do all those things than actually say something real to eachother for once. It's much easier to pretend to than put it all on the table, no risk there at all. But to admit they feel something for eachother, it's probably the hardest thing in the world for them to admit. They've both lived thier lives showing only what they want people to see, and the fact that they both can see through the bullcrap scares the living daylights out of both of them.

It's fascinating to watch...but sometimes you just want to smack them both and scream just give in already!

I think he loved Cassidy too but lack the capacity to really understand those feelings and did his version of running away by finishing the con. The difference with Kate is that he can't run away this time... he's stuck. And yes i believe he was talking about Kate, no other scenario makes sense to


I believe the difference between Cassidy and Kate is that Cassidy wanted to be with Sawyer b/c is a con man, and that is would be exciting to be with someone like him. With Kate, she knows he cons, but loves him for the person he can be. Cassidy never saw James, but Kate has.

I believe the difference between Cassidy and Kate is that Cassidy wanted to be with Sawyer b/c is a con man, and that is would be exciting to be with someone like him. With Kate, she knows he cons, but loves him for the person he can be. Cassidy never saw James, but Kate has.

Precisely. Kate doesn't appeal to that part of Sawyer in her efforts to draw him out. She tries to appeal to the human being inside of him...the person he's suppressed all these years...James.

I believe the difference between Cassidy and Kate is that Cassidy wanted to be with Sawyer b/c is a con man, and that is would be exciting to be with someone like him. With Kate, she knows he cons, but loves him for the person he can be. Cassidy never saw James, but Kate has.

I'm ITA there Luanne i believe Cassiby wanted the excitement there but didn't know the real person. Kate does, and there's the difference in a nutshell

Precisely. Kate doesn't appeal to that part of Sawyer in her efforts to draw him out. She tries to appeal to the human being inside of him...the person he's suppressed all these years...James.
:hug: to Darbi!! My take on it has always been that between Kate's love and Jack's friendship (if Jack would ever admit it and James would ever accept it), James would allow JAMES to be!!

:hug: to Lisa! :heart: Chapter 19. Chapter 20, please! MORE! NOW! PLEASE! :book:

:mushy:Lisa: Please tell us you have the script notes for that scene. It would be nice to really KNOW for sure he meant Kate when he said "I love her".

Actually darlin, I don't have the script notes, but I can tell you some information that definately proves that Kate is who Sawyer loves.

1. In Issue #3 (I believe) of the LOST magazine, Josh specifically says that what kept Sawyer alive on the trek back from the other side of the island was that he wanted to get back to Kate.

2. During the scene where Kate was getting him to take the medicine, as soon as she says, "Sawyer, it's Kate..." he lets out a very audible sigh. It was a sigh that proves that he felt that he was home and she was there and he'd made it back to her.

Now as to the scene...if you watch carefully and listen you will here Sawyer whisper to Jack...

Jack: (blotting his wound) Sorry man, I know this hurts
Sawyer: Where is she?
Jack: What? I didn't...
Sawyer: Where is she?
Jack: You mean Kate?
Sawyer: (whispered) I love her.
Jack: (sinks down in chair)
Sawyer: (a little louder) I love her.

Am I the only one who thinks the it's a little telling that the only person Sawyer confessed his love for Kate to was Jack, the one man who would be his worst enemy in this situation. Doesn't that tell us something.

Carlton was specifically asked about that scene and who Sawyer meant and he said, he was surprised any one would even wonder. He thought it was blatantly obvious expecially since there was no previous mention of any one in his life until Cassidy showed up about 5 shows later.

That's a big clue folks!!

That is the huge problem! Jack is convinced Sawyer loves Kate and he has no chance against him. Sawyer is convinced "Girls always want the doctor"(The Moth). So he sees no chance getting Kate. If it wasn´t so sad it would be funny: Both men believe the other is the better one they can´t beat.

Okay I way don't agree on this one. Sawyer never said anything about being convinced, all he said was (as typed directly from the script)

Sawyer: Yea the ladies love the doctors. Hell, gimme a couple bandaid, bottle o'peroxide. I could run this island too.
Kate: You're actually comparing yourself to Jack.
Sawyer: Difference 'tween us ain't that big sweetheart. I guarantee if he'd survived another week on this island, you'd have figured that out.

Now something else that we have to realize and one of the main reasons why I expect it to be Sawyer and Kate is the comfort level. Jack has this tremendous sense of having to do the right thing and to be honorable. Kate cannot ever live up to that for him. She doesn't know how and subconciously Jack thinks he can fix her. That's Jack's problem he can never ever accept anyone or anything for what they are, he must constantly try to "fix" them. Jack desperately wants to be the "bad one" though he won't ever be because for his whole life he watched his father be the "bad one" in a sense. Remember what he said to Sawyer, his father went through his entire life, not taking responsibility for anything, sayin he was "made that way". Those were a tremendously interesting choice of words. Given that and the fact that Jack is forever believing he has to be the leader, gives him very little chance of ever being able to be with Kate in a long term relationship.

Now, for Sawyer. Kate is comfortable with him. He doesn't try to change her. He accepts and understands who she is and what she is. The specific things he sees in her are the things he likes the most about himself. Sawyer likes himself tremendously. Now before you have a heart attack, here me out...

He likes himself, he doesn't like what he does for a living. Gordy told him it's not what he does, it's who he is. This is not true, but he thinks it's true. There always has to be some angle, some trick, something he has to do. With Kate, he doens't have to be that. He's just a man, she's a woman. She doesn't have to hide under anything about herself and she doesn't have to aspire to Jack's loft since of morality and honor. Kate is happy for the most part when she's with Sawyer.

The script from CM specifically says that when Sawyer is kissing Kate he's just a man, his swagger is gone and from now on, he will be different with Kate. There is a bond between them that cannot be broken and won't be until the very end, what ever that end turns out of be.

Even Carlton said, when specifically asked if it was over between Sawyer and Kate, said, "yea it's over, just like it was over for Dave and Maddie on Moonlighting..." Again, that's very telling...

So, the bottom line of all of this is that Sawyer and Kate have the most in common with each other....and it has nothing to do with cons or criminal pasts or anything...it has to do with a man and a woman livin' and lovin' each other...and my dear outkast darlings...

That man loves that woman
That woman loves that man
And that's what matters.

Huggs everybody,
Lisa ;)

PS Oh if I I forgot to mention it earlier, Chapter 19 is up at Surreality...still wondering what happened to the UK board.

LISA that was beautiful i have no words :shesaid: :clapping:

never call yourself dumb again ever ok?

Excellent insights, Lisa. Especially that Sawyer essentially likes himself. He likes his body. He knows he's smart. He's basically at ease with himself. He just doesn't like what he does. The opposite is true for Jack. He doesn't much like anything about himself, but he is happy to be a doc.

Chapter 20!
Please!

:book:

We'll have to agree to disagree on one thing, Lisa: I think James hates himself VERY MUCH
. . .for "becoming" the man whose con drove his daddy to murder/suicide!

But the insight into Jack is appreciated. He IS terrified of "becoming" his dad. Hey! Fear and loathing about "becoming" the people they dislike most! ANOTHER thing Jack and James have in common! (I know, I know--this belongs in JuSt!)

Kate and Jack. . .the people who can most help James meet his potential--AND stop hating himself!! :biggrin:

Chapter 20!
Please!

:book:




Duly noted!!!

Don't worry it's comin'

Huggs babe,
Lisa;)

Thank you, Lisa! :hug:

I have to respectfully disagree too, Lisa. :)

I believe Sawyer very much loathes what he has become, not just what his profession has been. He has exhibited very self-destructive behaviour, and sabotaged relationships which might have brought him some modicum of peace or happiness. I think he believes he has become the same kind of scum who duped his mother and cheated his father. That he doesn't deserve anything good, and in fact should be punished, hated and reviled for what he has done, and what he is.

Yes, he knows he is attractive, and is confident that he can put the moves on women and so forth, but in so many other ways he is insecure and unsure of himself. Unsure of who the real James is anymore, and whether or not he even exists.

Zoriah you nailed there, someone like him whose outward appearance, i.e. complete confidence in his looks and his abillity to get girls in the sack, can be very insecure underneath the surface. It's why he puts it out like that. Cause he's covering the things he feels big time. Underneath all the swagger and cockiness is a very scared, very inscure person who dosen't like himself very much. And certainly dosen't think he's worthy of being cared about. He sees himself as a bad person and conciously rejects anything that might suggest otherwise.

It's why he took the name 'Sawyer' cause he sees himself as just like that guy, and you could say it's partially a punishment of sorts. I hate "Sawyer" and cause i hate myself i'll call myself that. As a reminder, seeing as that's what people call him, it reminds him every day. that's why Locke calling him James bugs him so much.. cause that's who he really is and that scares him.

Anything but A Tale of Two Cities, or Buffy.

I refuse to watch Sawyer be the unrequited love who redeems himself at the end by throwing himself on the proverbial hand grenade of love so that his hottie true love can have a normal life or be with her 'fated' other boyfriend.

I will so be disappointed if they do this. I'd rather they go the Gone with the Wind route, have Sawyer suffer through Jate, and then Kate come to her senses, and him say 'Too Late for Skate, missy.' and leave with dignity.

But that's just me.

Haha... Buffy.. guess you weren't too happy w/the Spike storyline eh?

Yeah... I definitely agree w/you... I will be pissed if Sawyer does anything in anyway possible to help along Kate & Jack go off into the sunset...
100%
you just did darlin'...let me echo our dear Fricks and give a welcome and a big ole HOWDY since that's what we Texans do...check out the first page for a list of the members and some other stuff we have too...

You also might want to check out the other outKaSt thread as well if you'd like to bone up a little...there some video and fan fic links in there and those are fun to read and watch, huh Fricks? hehehe

Again, welcome hon!

Huggs y'all,
Lisa


PS. Circle if you keep that avi up there much longer, I'm gonna have to buy a defibrilator!!! Every time I see it, my heart flutters...at least I think it's my heart...(oooh I'm going to hell for sure)

Thank you kindly to both yourself & Fricksgurl for the warm welcome. I didn't even know I'd been added until today....

As far as topic goes... let me say that if "Jate" happens... I'm going to breathe fire... seriously... nothing could piss me off more... my roommate thinks Jack's the better man... but thinks there's no way Jate will happen because Kate doesn't fit w/the better man... and I think.. heck... Jack can be the "better" man all he wants... I couldn't care less... as long as he & Kate are never ever together.

It's why he took the name 'Sawyer' cause he sees himself as just like that guy, and you could say it's partially a punishment of sorts. I hate "Sawyer" and cause i hate myself i'll call myself that. As a reminder, seeing as that's what people call him, it reminds him every day. that's why Locke calling him James bugs him so much.. cause that's who he really is and that scares him.

Isn't he just fit to be tied when Locke calls him by his real name? :laughing: Tickles me.

By holding on to Sawyer's persona, like you said, it's a punishment of sorts for himself. He's allowed himself to become this...monster, this shell of a man that's inflicted the same damage upon countless woman and their families much like the original Sawyer did to his family. Like he said in 'CM', the real tragedy was he became the man he's hunting, and rejects for the most part any measure of peace or happiness because he doesn't feel he's deserving or worthy of it. It's a vicious, ugly cycle...I just wonder what event or circumstances thrust him out of it to start to reconnect or figure out who James is again so he can accept that love he needs so much without guilt.

Zoriah "I refuse to watch Sawyer be the unrequited love who redeems himself at the end by throwing himself on the proverbial hand grenade of love so that his hottie true love can have a normal life or be with her 'fated' other boyfriend.I will so be disappointed if they do this. I'd rather they go the Gone with the Wind route, have Sawyer suffer through Jate, and then Kate come to her senses, and him say 'Too Late for Skate, missy.' and leave with dignity."


:shesaid:


Drugal "As far as topic goes... let me say that if "Jate" happens... I'm going to breathe fire... seriously... nothing could piss me off more... my roommate thinks Jack's the better man... but thinks there's no way Jate will happen because Kate doesn't fit w/the better man... and I think.. heck... Jack can be the "better" man all he wants... I couldn't care less... as long as he & Kate are never ever together."


:shesaid:


I am going to spit nails and Sawyer "throwing himself on the proverbial hand grenade of love" would be so trite and such a complete waste of Lost's most interesting character (IMO). I expect the Lost writers to create a more realistic senerio than the Hollywood "formula" triangle resolution we have seen again and again.

What was the point in showing us Sawyer's demons and pain and not "reedeming" him with the love and support he deserves? Leaving him in the "hell" he currently occupies makes no sense. Having him pine for Kate from afar would only make him darker and is not the resolution I want and certainly does not advance his character's development.

And when it comes down to the essential qualitities that real love requires, Jack may not be the better man. Sawyer displays the ability to laugh, to be happy (even when conflicted) to note and respond to the pain of others, and his focus is always on Kate. Jack is filled with anger, basically an unhappy man (why), so self-absorbed he seldom notices the impact of events on anyone, and only focused on Kate when he wants something from her or she "disappoints" him.

And when it comes down to the essential qualitities that real love requires, Jack may not be the better man. Sawyer displays the ability to laugh, to be happy (even when conflicted) to note and respond to the pain of others, and his focus is always on Kate. Jack is filled with anger, basically an unhappy man (why), so self-absorbed he seldom notices the impact of events on anyone, and only focused on Kate when he wants something from her or she "disappoints" him.

:shesaid: - ITA Losttvfan! I have never seen evidence of Jack caring for Kate otherwise either. Whereas Sawyer does often seem to be both aware of & concerned for Kate's well-being. True love definitely... :sweety:

Okay Outkasters, brilliant discussion so far. Skater minds. ;) But heres a question I thought of from some of the earlier posts....

So we have discussed how Kate would help Sawyer with his redemption, but how would Sawyer help Kate with hers?

I usually come back later to answer these, but Im gonna toss my two cents in now. I think both Sawyer and Kate need to come to terms with themselves and what they have done in order to feel that they deserve redemption. Sawyer doesnt see himself as a good person. And we know that he feels conflicted about that when hes with Kate cause she doesnt put up with his BS. Like in CM, she found out the truth about the letter, and called him out.

But I think Kate already has that drive to be a better person. And although some may argue that Sawyer drags her down, Ive seen her at her happiest and guard completely taken down when shes with him. He accepts her for who she is and she doesnt have to strive for his approval. He likes her just the way she is. Again, some may argue that this would negate her character growth, but I think on the contrary, someone like Kate needs to find her way on her own, and what she needs more than anything is love and support--not criticism.

I think in time, if Sawyer and Kate can get past some of their demons and start to realize that love is more important than baggage--this most likely wont happen till way way down the road, lol. And they can take that path to redemption together--On equal footing.:)

I think Sawyer offers Kate the chance to see, perhaps for the first time, that people can change for the better. In watching him become redeemed by her love, she would see that she could be redeemed by his. Jack would "improve" her, but improvement isn't the same as depemption. And that man does love that woman! There is nothing more affirming or more constructive to individual self worth than to be loved, not for what you could become, but for who you are. To have your flaws accepted and not held against you. A wise man once said that the key to a successful relationship is to find someone whose neuroses are compatible with your own. Kate's and Sawyer's neuoses are compatible; Jack's and Kate's are not.

Okay Outkasters, brilliant discussion so far. Skater minds. ;) But heres a question I thought of from some of the earlier posts....

So we have discussed how Kate would help Sawyer with his redemption, but how would Sawyer help Kate with hers?

I think in time, if Sawyer and Kate can get past some of their demons and start to realize that love is more important than baggage--this most likely wont happen till way way down the road, lol. And they can take that path to redemption together--On equal footing.:)

:1smiling: Bravo! It is the equal footing that appeals to me and would be part of my answer (if you hadn't said it first).

When Sawyer told Kate "he had known girls like her", he was wrong. He hasn't...she is a match for him in every way and he has never come up against that before. She doesn't buy his act, sees below the surface, recognizes his inact goodness, and calls him on his crap. She does make him want to be a better man, but first he has to forgive and love himself, he doesn't quite know how to do that. She supports that journey everytime she points out the self destructive things he does to himself.

I think Sawyer can see how wounded Kate is and can understand how she became so detached. He knows well the impact of adult trama on children (and Kate's appears to have a sexual abuse quality to it) and how kids can "blame" themselves. He brings out the child in Kate, makes her playful (something she has seldom allowed herself to be). And most importantly, he accepts her!

I think both of them realize that "you are what you have done, but that is not all you are". They see beyond that; to the real person hidden beneath the shell...they don't hide well from each other.

:wub: I said this before on a chat but, I think that Sawyer is going to teach Kate to love passion and Kate will teach him how to love passionately.

said this before on a chat but, I think that Sawyer is going to teach Kate to love passion and Kate will teach him how to love passionately.
:shesaid: That's a wonderful way to put it.

Girlspy15: So we have discussed how Kate would help Sawyer with his redemption, but how would Sawyer help Kate with hers?

Perdue: I think Sawyer offers Kate the chance to see, perhaps for the first time, that people can change for the better. In watching him become redeemed by her love, she would see that she could be redeemed by his. Jack would "improve" her, but improvement isn't the same as depemption. And that man does love that woman! There is nothing more affirming or more constructive to individual self worth than to be loved, not for what you could become, but for who you are. To have your flaws accepted and not held against you. A wise man once said that the key to a successful relationship is to find someone whose neuroses are compatible with your own. Kate's and Sawyer's neuoses are compatible; Jack's and Kate's are not.

I love what you said Perdue, especially with the bolded part. And also Girlspy15's and Losttvfan's emphasis on equality, on mutual understanding.

For me, I see Sawyer providing emotional support in a way that Jack cannot. Now I do acknowledge that earlier in the first season it seemed Jack was able to provide Kate with some acceptance and stability, but that changed rapidly when he processed the fact that she was a wanted criminal. No matter how hard he tries, he cannot understand her darker side, and does not accept it.

On the one hand Jack says supportive things like 'we all get a second chance', and 'you don't owe him anything'. But they appear to only be lip service when he also lashes out at her demanding for her to 'tell him something real', or screams at her to not lie about the plane in the suitcase, and other times when he seems to be judging her or making digs about her past life, or her motives.

Sawyer on the other hand, while acknowledging her past, doesn't hold it against her. He accepts who she was, and who she is. That doesn't mean he won't call her out on it when she pushes too far, like the whole raft poisoning incident. But it seems that Sawyer wants to know her, and relate to her on an open/equal footing while still respecting the walls and boundaries they have set up. He doesn't want to change her, because it's not his right to demand that of her.

This season you can see the differences even more clearly. Who doesn't punish Kate for who she hangs out with or likes? Who offers her companionship and fun without any expectation or condition set upon that interaction? Who buoys her up emotionally when she makes a mistake and doesn't punish her for it? "I woulda done the same, Freckles" Who is there for her when she needs comfort from her feelings of shock and grief (and again it's offered without question, no 'what's going on Kate, where were you, Kate?' demands made on her)

You can bet it ain't Jack.

STH :hug: all you fine posters for understanding James so well!!

Zoriah, I especially like this observation:
I believe Sawyer very much loathes what he has become, not just what his profession has been. He has exhibited very self-destructive behaviour, and sabotaged relationships which might have brought him some modicum of peace or happiness. I think he believes he has become the same kind of scum who duped his mother and cheated his father. That he doesn't deserve anything good, and in fact should be punished, hated and reviled for what he has done, and what he is.
BULLSEYE!!

Oh, and remember how Kate said cuz she had Wayne's genes, that she would never be good? These two even have the same obstacles to overcome!

I continue to hope that their captivity by The Others might give each of the trio some honest perspective about themselves and each other. If so, Skate will be the outcome, and both of them can help Jack accept himself better. (Especially that he cannot FIX everything and that he will NEVER turn into his daddy!)

So we have discussed how Kate would help Sawyer with his redemption, but how would Sawyer help Kate with hers?


I love all of your answers to this - as I usual I know - but you all seem to say exactly what I would think and agree with too! Maybe it's a case of Skaters minds thinking alike again... anyway, not sure what I can add to it other than I think ultimately both do have to deal with redemption by themselves, no-one else can really do the work for them but I think that Sawyer could help by what he often does anyway for Kate - just by being there for her and accepting whatever way she deals with this herself and he would support her on it. He already accepts her as she is, I can't see this changing anytime soon.
I do think that it comes back to what we've mentioned before here though - Kate needs to acknowledge Sawyer and not take him for granted - she needs a good reminder that what he could be for her is not something that comes around often i.e. the very fact that he loves her for who she is with no expectations attached ;)

:wub: I said this before on a chat but, I think that Sawyer is going to teach Kate to love passion and Kate will teach him how to love passionately.

Oh, I like that. :clap:

As far as the question goes...I think everyone's pretty much said it all. In order to help Kate, he would continue to do what he's always done...accept her for who and what she is, and hopefully one day soon she'll realize that this acceptance, this approval and love she's been looking for all her life, it seems doesn't always come in the form in which we think it should.

I love what you said Perdue, especially with the bolded part. And also Girlspy15's and Losttvfan's emphasis on equality, on mutual understanding.

For me, I see Sawyer providing emotional support in a way that Jack cannot. Now I do acknowledge that earlier in the first season it seemed Jack was able to provide Kate with some acceptance and stability, but that changed rapidly when he processed the fact that she was a wanted criminal. No matter how hard he tries, he cannot understand her darker side, and does not accept it.

On the one hand Jack says supportive things like 'we all get a second chance', and 'you don't owe him anything'. But they appear to only be lip service when he also lashes out at her demanding for her to 'tell him something real', or screams at her to not lie about the plane in the suitcase, and other times when he seems to be judging her or making digs about her past life, or her motives.

Sawyer on the other hand, while acknowledging her past, doesn't hold it against her. He accepts who she was, and who she is. That doesn't mean he won't call her out on it when she pushes too far, like the whole raft poisoning incident. But it seems that Sawyer wants to know her, and relate to her on an open/equal footing while still respecting the walls and boundaries they have set up. He doesn't want to change her, because it's not his right to demand that of her.

This season you can see the differences even more clearly. Who doesn't punish Kate for who she hangs out with or likes? Who offers her companionship and fun without any expectation or condition set upon that interaction? Who buoys her up emotionally when she makes a mistake and doesn't punish her for it? "I woulda done the same, Freckles" Who is there for her when she needs comfort from her feelings of shock and grief (and again it's offered without question, no 'what's going on Kate, where were you, Kate?' demands made on her)

You can bet it ain't Jack.



:shesaid:

I think Kate's ultimate redemption will come from within. Sawyer will of course play a part in it just as she will play a part in his. I think Kate's problem is that right she doesn't think she deserves anything good or that she is not a good person. (Sort of reminds me of a certain con man we all love). To have someone love you for you and all your faults I think is pretty important. I am not sure at this point if Jack does accept Kate. He says we all get second chances, but yet his actions don't support what he says.

Kate's and Sawyer's neuoses are compatible; Jack's and Kate's are not.[

I think all three of them have feelings of "I am not good enough" Kate and Sawyer feel that way and have said it. Jack, I think feels this way too b/c of his father.

:clover: Fun to see how this develops next season.

Just as fun to read Chapter 20 of "Battlefield Revisited"!! :book:

(Sorry to keep pressuring you, Lisa--but it's SUCH a good story! :grin:)

I think Sawyer offers Kate the chance to see, perhaps for the first time, that people can change for the better. In watching him become redeemed by her love, she would see that she could be redeemed by his. Jack would "improve" her, but improvement isn't the same as depemption. And that man does love that woman! There is nothing more affirming or more constructive to individual self worth than to be loved, not for what you could become, but for who you are. To have your flaws accepted and not held against you. A wise man once said that the key to a successful relationship is to find someone whose neuroses are compatible with your own. Kate's and Sawyer's neuoses are compatible; Jack's and Kate's are not.

:in_love: Perdue, your insight is always so creative. That was priceless! Another point in Skate's favor.....

Just as fun to read Chapter 20 of "Battlefield Revisited"!! :book:

(Sorry to keep pressuring you, Lisa--but it's SUCH a good story! :grin:)

I cant wait for her next chapter either STH ;).

Okay well I did a marathon writing session this weekend and got Broken Halves done, so without further adieu, here are chapters 13-15....

http://z11.invisionfree.com/Fuselage_Fiction/index.php?showtopic=72&st=0&#entry1451587

Enjoy. :D

So we have discussed how Kate would help Sawyer with his redemption, but how would Sawyer help Kate with hers?



great question girlspy i think i agree with most of your answers, I think Sawyer will help Kate just simply by being there, giving her acceptance and just letting her be herself. Some of it i don't think he does intentionally, sort of by accident but it's no less helpful. I always think back to THP when he told her not to beat herself up about it, that he'd have done the same thing. And he didn't press it, just walked away and left her alone. People don't always realize how much of a boost support like that can be, esp when your feeling bad. ML was another example too, he asked her opinion on the matter and wanted to go with her but respected the fact that she didn't need him to. He does sometimes without even realizing that he does it.

I think all three of them have feelings of "I am not good enough" Kate and Sawyer feel that way and have said it. Jack, I think feels this way too b/c of his father.

You are abosultly right on that Luanne such messed up people involved it's a wonder anyone will end up with anybody at all....

I said this before on a chat but, I think that Sawyer is going to teach Kate to love passion and Kate will teach him how to love passionately.

I will say it again, i absolutly love that and think it's so true :biggrin:

Thank you, girlspy! :hug:

Lisa? You there, Lisa? Has the train with Sayid, Jack, and John arrived yet? STORY!

Please? :crybaby:

Thank you, girlspy! :hug:

Lisa? You there, Lisa? Has the train with Sayid, Jack, and John arrived yet? STORY!

Please? :crybaby:


Yes my dear it has arrived...

http://z11.invisionfree.com/Fuselage_Fiction/index.php?showforum=16

Hope you enjoy...

Chapter 21 will be here probably by Tuesday or Wednesday...It should go about 25 chapters tops and then it'll end....I mean it's a dream, how long can it be right?

Excellent question and sense I can't keep my eyes open I'll answer tomorrow...

nighty night everyone...

Huggs,
Lisa ;)

:hug:, Lisa!

It was excellent. And I can see Jack, John, and Sayid pose as rube poker players just fine! :24:

But what the heck is wrong with Kate back on the Island?

And how long will it take you to write 4-5 more chapters? The more I :book:, the more I want the next chapter! :crybaby:

You are a wonderful storyteller. I hope you have an Others story for us after this one is done (co-starring James & Kate, of course)!

hufflepuff that was beautifuly stated, and that is not gonna get you in trouble here, you can say nice things about Josh, we do all the time. :biggrin:

It is amazing to see the way he portrays the conflict of someone who acts like he dosen't want or need love and friendship, but looks so damn lonely and hurt when no one pays attention. I think Sawyer more than anyone on that island needs people to care about him, he's had so little of it in his life. He wants it but is so scared of it at the same time. Josh does a beautiful job of portraying that.

I agree 100% fricks! Sawyer does need someone to care about him. He also needs someone who won't let him push them away. Someone's going to have to help him break those barriers down. And Josh does an amazing job of protraying Sawyer and all of his qualities both bad and good.

Yes my dear it has arrived...

http://z11.invisionfree.com/Fuselage_Fiction/index.php?showforum=16

Hope you enjoy...

Chapter 21 will be here probably by Tuesday or Wednesday...It should go about 25 chapters tops and then it'll end....I mean it's a dream, how long can it be right?

:clap: It was wonderful Lisa!!! I cant wait till Tuesday or Wednesday. ;)

I believe the difference between Cassidy and Kate is that Cassidy wanted to be with Sawyer b/c is a con man, and that is would be exciting to be with someone like him. With Kate, she knows he cons, but loves him for the person he can be. Cassidy never saw James, but Kate has.

:shesaid: Beautifully said Luanne!

Awesome updates Girlspy and Lisa! Girlspy...love how you left it open ended.

So we have discussed how Kate would help Sawyer with his redemption, but how would Sawyer help Kate with hers?

Before I start, great answers to this everyone. Ok, now I'll throw my two cents in. :D I think that Sawyer can help Kate with her redemption by supporting her and being there for her. He already accepts her for who she is. She needs to know this. She needs to know that she doesn't have to change just grow. Kate needs to be reminded that she doesn't have to be fixed and she is good enough.

Good morning everyone!

Question:

When and under what circumstances will Kate openly acknowledge Sawyer as "James"?

:shesaid: Beautifully said Luanne!

Awesome updates Girlspy and Lisa! Girlspy...love how you left it open ended.



Before I start, great answers to this everyone. Ok, now I'll throw my two cents in. :D I think that Sawyer can help Kate with her redemption by supporting her and being there for her. He already accepts her for who she is. She needs to know this. She needs to know that she doesn't have to change just grow. Kate needs to be reminded that she doesn't have to be fixed and she is good enough.

Thank you honey. ;) And I love that. "She doesnt have to change to grow." Just accept herself, not deny it.

When and under what circumstances will Kate openly acknowledge Sawyer as "James"?

Great question Darbi, and franckly, Im surprised Kate hasnt addressed that already. I mean shes heard it like what 2 times already? But I suspect she will hear it while they are in captivity. And its a name Sawyer doesnt want people to use. We can see the obvious agitation when Locke calls him James, so I think if Kate hears it and she has a moment alone, she may dig a bit deeper. I hope she will address it. Although based on the context and the intensity of things while in captivity, it could very well be an afterthought. I mean they will most likely have bigger problems.

Whatever happens though, if Kate awknowledges it, I think it would be during a more intimate moment between the two. I cant see her mocking him for it or anything. She knows too much about him. It would be insensitive of her to tease, but dig deeper, she may.

Yeah, I see it being during some highly emotional, private moment, too. Just to see Sawyer's reaction. The various emotions that will float across his face would be priceless for me.

Just wanted to drop off my new Skate vid: Black Horse and the Cherry Tree (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGKLdDppMrQ) - KT Tunstall.

*warning: can be considered mildly anti-Jate. Just sayin'. :biggrin:

Just wanted to say a quick hi to you all. I'm still Skatin' away. I'm just so busy lately that I don't get to come in here very much.
Your above discussions are very interesting. I would have to say that Sawyer and Kate are ultimately responsible for themselves but can definitely be there for each other - to give each other support when needed. They just make sense - just like Han & Leia. ;)

Girlspy & Lisa - Lovin' your fics. Keep up the good work!!

Very nicely done. I almost felt sorry for poor Jackaroo. The link with the black horse was great.The look she gives him after the kiss was used perfectly in the song. "No. No, you're not the one for me." So darn true. Heh.

Afternoon Outkasters! :D

I love Kate that much that I simply want her to get happy. There have been a lot of moments when I honestly wished she would choose Sawyer. Different to the opinion of many fans I think he would be the "safe" choice. With Sawyer Kate can laugh, play and enjoy the moment what she missed for such a long time. He never will ask her what she did but understand if she decided to tell him. With James Kate will never feel not good enough.

Hey, Darbi! It's still morning here, heh. I'm still in bed, tapping away on the laptop. Got the day off. :biggrin:

Afternoon Outkasters! :D

Good afternoon Darbi! I'm just catching up here, will be back to put in my own two cents worth in a bit...

Hey, Darbi! It's still morning here, heh. I'm still in bed, tapping away on the laptop. Got the day off. :biggrin:

So jealous. ;) I'm still slaving away at my job. Our system went completely down for the better part of the day, and now we're humping like well, slaves to get the work done.


Ugh! I'm ready to go home! :mad:

I love Kate that much that I simply want her to get happy. There have been a lot of moments when I honestly wished she would choose Sawyer. Different to the opinion of many fans I think he would be the "safe" choice. With Sawyer Kate can laugh, play and enjoy the moment what she missed for such a long time. He never will ask her what she did but understand if she decided to tell him. With James Kate will never feel not good enough.

I agree with everything you said except that.;)

Just wanted to drop off my new Skate vid: Black Horse and the Cherry Tree - KT Tunstall.

*warning: can be considered mildly anti-Jate. Just sayin'.

I loved that vid. Love the way you edited to make it look like Jack was crying as he was watching Sawyer and Kate. Poor Jack. Always gets picked on for crying

Hi , IceKat! Love that vid! Adult Jaters don´t have problems with such stuff! I am totally adicted with the Skater queen´s story on LF!

When and under what circumstances will Kate openly acknowledge Sawyer as "James"?

Great question Darbi, and franckly, Im surprised Kate hasnt addressed that already. I mean shes heard it like what 2 times already? But I suspect she will hear it while they are in captivity. And its a name Sawyer doesnt want people to use. We can see the obvious agitation when Locke calls him James, so I think if Kate hears it and she has a moment alone, she may dig a bit deeper. I hope she will address it. Although based on the context and the intensity of things while in captivity, it could very well be an afterthought. I mean they will most likely have bigger problems.

Whatever happens though, if Kate awknowledges it, I think it would be during a more intimate moment between the two. I cant see her mocking him for it or anything. She knows too much about him. It would be insensitive of her to tease, but dig deeper, she may.

If Kate said the name on a lighter note, the conversation would quickly turn more serious I reckon. I think however that she will call him James during a 'more intimate moment' they share too. I also think that by calling him this, the name may just take on new meaning for him too - I think he could handle Kate calling him that, even though he generally may not accept it or like it - maybe Kate could even help bring him around to the thought that he can be James at times revealing that part of himself more & not hating himself for it. If Kate and Sawyer do become closer I'd like to hear Kate using his real name more then too, it'd be strange for them to be together & still call him by his chosen self-inflicting punishment of the name Sawyer all the time.

Girlspy and Lisa - love your updates, look forward to the next few chapters Lisa and I love the ending to your's Girlspy :biggrin:

I see Kate becoming the person she is, not who he was forced to be. She likes it.
I see the same on James. He really becomes more and more James than Sawyer but he is scared of this. Kate most likely is the only person who can address this because Sawyer is not afraid of her.

I loved that vid. Love the way you edited to make it look like Jack was crying as he was watching Sawyer and Kate. Poor Jack. Always gets picked on for crying
Thanks!

Yeah, I'm a little unhappy with Jack after the completion of S2, so he's on my "bad side"...for now. Thus, he looked a little bit pitiful in that particular vid. He does cry awfully well, though! :biggrin:

Maybe when he realizes that he IS James around her, and thus JAMES, not the Sawyer persona he affects, is loved by her, he can accept her calling him by his real name. Unlike Locke, who calls him James to "get" to him, she'd be calling him James because she loves and cares about him. James would come to have a POSITIVE connotation to it, just like MidnightSawyerfan said.

Also, she (and maybe even Jack!) is gonna have to help him deal with the name and all it has come to mean to him. . .because The Others are going to be calling him James. James is the name on Their list. They know his real name. They know how hearing it affects him. That suits Them just fine--as playing mind games with all three of Their prisoners will be a main priority with Them.

Thus, Kate and Jack will have to at least TRY to help James deal with, well, himself. But, of course, Kate will be able to reach him on this best! :biggrin:

Thanks everyone for the great thoughts...I'm so glad you all like it...

I don't think Sawyer will ask Kate to call him James for a while if he ever does. I think in his mind, James is part of his past. I think he'd like to get it back but James shows a vulnerability that Sawyer's not ready to go to yet. I think if he ever does get to that point, that it will be when he and Kate and much closer and not just physically. She's have to get way deeper than that to touch that part of him. And, I'm not sure how that's going to work.

I'm with you guys on the whole James thing.. Your name is how you are defined by and what you define yourself by.It's your identity. It would take alot for that happen. It's a part of him he keeps very tightly inside himself and it bothers him just to hear it. He's simply not ready to bring that part of himself out front yet. Kate using it would be very personal, it would have to be a very intense or intimate moment for both of them for her to use it.

I think if he ever does get to that point, that it will be when he and Kate and much closer and not just physically. She's have to get way deeper than that to touch that part of him. And, I'm not sure how that's going to work.
Being captives of The Others just may draw all three of these people closer together? :innocent:

Still say that with The Others calling him James and calling him James and calling him James is gonna drive him nutso. Since he can't escape it, he is going to HAVE to deal with it. And he won't be able to do that alone. Who better to help him than the one person who relates to him best, and is most sympathetic towards him?

Does anyone know a how to make the time go faster? I want it to be October soon :) I haven't been around for a while, but I assure you that I'm still a hardcore SKater ;)

Regarding Kate calling Sawyer James - I can only see her doing so in a terribly serious situation, or perhaps in a very intimate one. And frankly, I'm not sure I want her to call him that at all, to me he IS a Sawyer. The name has somehow become synonymous with the personality the character has on the show, teasing everyone, giving people nicknames, being edgy etc.

Have you seen this btw; Romance looms on the horizon as Jack's interests veer towards a mysterious new woman, whose motives may be questionable

I would say it sounds like good news for us and I'm starting to feel a bit more positive about the new season suddenly.... I didn't like the way season 2 ended (OK, to be honest - I didn't like that Kate looked at Jack and not Sawyer in the end....).

I didn't like the way season 2 ended (OK, to be honest - I didn't like that Kate looked at Jack and not Sawyer in the end....).
I wouldn't fret too much about it...IMO, there was absolutely nothing romantically implied in that look. Jack was the one who had told them that he had a plan, so Kate was simply telling Jack "yep, I'm ready to initiate The Plan, on your signal" with the whole 'blink once for yes' look. Sawyer's look was saying the exact same thing...and the fact that they included a shot of Sawyer there, looking intently at Jack, says it all. Sawyer & Kate are simply ready to back up Jack's plan. Nothing romantic there, in any direction...it was just a "let's roll" thing.

That's how I saw it, leastways. :smile:

Morning Outkasters!

I have a new computer at work now...and it has SPEAKERS!!! *does dance of joy*...which means that even though my soundcard at home is busted, I can still spend my lunch hour today catching up on Skate videos :biggrin: ...woo hoo!

When and under what circumstances will Kate openly acknowledge Sawyer as "James"?

I don't know whether she would ever address him as James, until he indicated that it was something he was ready for. She's never even mentioned the letter or his parents to him except during "I never" when they were calling eachother on all kinds of personal stuff. I just can't see her using his real name (even though she knows it now)...because it's something she knows he's trying to forget about.

I think when Locke does it...he's not necessarily being cruel, but he's trying to make Sawyer uncomfortable or nervous, catch him off guard. Locke just likes to mess with people...not in a sadistic way, but kind of like Dr. Phil...only slightly more mysterious ;). But Kate saw Sawyer at his most vulnerable when he confessed to her in Confidence Man, and she's not interested in testing him to see where his breaking point is, or playing mind games with him. I think she respects him enough to not bring it up until it's something he WANTS to talk about. If he's never used the name James willingly, it's clear that it's something that he's keeping to himself. He didn't even tell her his name when he told her about the fact that he wasn't really Sawyer. And I think Kate won't go anywhere that Sawyer hasn't let her into to.

I think the reason Kate brought up the letter in "I never" was because she's thinks it's unhealthy for him to carry it around, and not let go of the rage towards the real Sawyer. But with the name James, it's less of a pressing issue and it's not something she needs to push him about. I think it IS important for him to come to terms with who he really is, and Kate knows it, but it's something that has to happen slowly. I think Kate is probably watching him with interest, and seeing how he's developing and how much of James is coming out more and more. But she won't bring it up because it'll only make Sawyer retreat further into his shell.

I think when Locke does it...he's not necessarily being cruel, but he's trying to make Sawyer uncomfortable or nervous, catch him off guard. Locke just likes to mess with people...not in a sadistic way, but kind of like Dr. Phil...only slightly more mysterious.

Ha! Mr. Clean, Daniel Boone, Dr. Phil...Gimpy McCrutch...boy the nicknames kept piling up don't they? :laughing:

You know, as uncertain as I've always been and remain about Locke's motives...I don't know if his reasons for addressing Sawyer as "James" was an attempt to mess with Sawyer just for the sake of screwing with his head.

Like Sawyer, Locke is pretty perceptive of people and I would imagine he's noticed the subtle changes in Sawyer since they crashed...and especially since his return to camp. No doubt he's picked up on the vibes between Sawyer and Kate...he has first hand experience of losing out on someone who pleaded with him to let go of his "obsession" with his father who very well may be the real Mr. Sawyer. Perhaps he sees a buried potential within Sawyer, but in order for him to reach that potential for his own personal growth and to be helpful to the camp as a whole, he needs to reconnect with who James was, or could have been. Now, that's not to say "James" will ever lose that edge about him....he wouldn't be Sawyer, James or anything without it...but eventually he will have to let that mind set go by putting that persona behind him.

If any of that makes sense.

Hi Kristina, nice to see you around here again. Glad you got your speakers too QE. You have alot of vids to catch up on, lol. Especially on you-tube, there are tons and tons of skate vids.;)

I just had a thought about the Kates reaction to James thing. What if Kate knew his real name a long time ago? I mean do you think at the age of 8 that Sawyer would sign a letter he wrote with his real name? I think its more than likely that he would. And Kate read that letter, more than once. Maybe were not gonna get a huge reaction out of her, if she already figured out in CM that Sawyers real name was James. It would still be nice to have her address it though. I think when the others presumably start calling him James more and more, she could be forced to address it.

Ha! Mr. Clean, Daniel Boone, Dr. Phil...Gimpy McCrutch...boy the nicknames kept piling up don't they? :laughing:

You know, as uncertain as I've always been and remain about Locke's motives...I don't know if his reasons for addressing Sawyer as "James" was an attempt to mess with Sawyer just for the sake of screwing with his head.

Like Sawyer, Locke is pretty perceptive of people and I would imagine he's noticed the subtle changes in Sawyer since they crashed...and especially since his return to camp. No doubt he's picked up on the vibes between Sawyer and Kate...he has first hand experience of losing out on someone who pleaded with him to let go of his "obsession" with his father who very well may be the real Mr. Sawyer. Perhaps he sees a buried potential within Sawyer, but in order for him to reach that potential for his own personal growth and to be helpful to the camp as a whole, he needs to reconnect with who James was, or could have been. Now, that's not to say "James" will ever lose that edge about him....he wouldn't be Sawyer, James or anything without it...but eventually he will have to let that mind set go by putting that persona behind him.

If any of that makes sense.


Oh I don't think Locke was trying to mess with him just for the sake of screwing with him, but Locke likes to analyze people. By calling Sawyer James, he was trying to make cracks in his persona as "Sawyer". Ultimately that COULD help Sawyer, but sometimes Locke does things in a way I don't agree with. And part of me thinks that it's motivated by a genuine interest in human nature, but not necessarily by caring about specific people. In my opinion he wanted to see how Sawyer would react...wanted to figure out what makes him tick. It's not really mean, but he seemed kind of mischevious and curious and less sympathetic and caring.

Locke often tries to expose truths about people...but then steps back and lets the chips fall where they may. He tries to be the impartial observer who sets things in motion, but doesn't always concern himself with the consequences.

Oh I don't think Locke was trying to mess with him just for the sake of screwing with him, but Locke likes to analyze people. By calling Sawyer James, he was trying to make cracks in his persona as "Sawyer". Ultimately that COULD help Sawyer, but sometimes Locke does things in a way I don't agree with. And part of me thinks that it's motivated by a genuine interest in human nature, but not necessarily by caring about specific people. In my opinion he wanted to see how Sawyer would react...wanted to figure out what makes him tick. It's not really mean, but he seemed kind of mischevious and curious and less sympathetic and caring.

Locke often tries to expose truths about people...but then steps back and lets the chips fall where they may. He tries to be the impartial observer who sets things in motion, but doesn't always concern himself with the consequences.


Agreed. I don't necessarily trust Locke...never have. But then again, trying to access whether he's good or bad has never been that important to me. I just enjoy watching his character, and what he brings to the show. He's a philosopher...and while that affords him to take geniune interest in the study of human nature, like you mentioned, it doesn't mean it's specific to certain people. Whether he's geniunely interested in helping Sawyer, we'll have to wait and see. However, his insistance in calling Sawyer "James" will have its effects regardless...and that's what I'm intrigued to see.

Wow, I've been away for almost 2 weeks so I had about 20 pages to catch up on, so my head's spinning a bit, but I'm gonna try and remember all the things I wanted to reply too!

I don't think that we will hear Kate call Sawyer 'James' until he has shown that he is ready for it. She knows why he took on the personna of Sawyer, and although I'm sure she hates the fact he calls himself that, and knows how unhealthy it is, she respects the fact that he is using it to punish himself, because she well understands self-flagulation herself, which is why i think she will never push the issue, unless he commits some compleately self-destructive behaviour, then I think she would call him up on it.
Like someone else said, I also see him as 'sawyer' and for me it doiesn't remind me of the man who conned his parents, but it reminds me of him, his sarcy comments etc but also the capacity for good deeds as well, it feels strange and alien to call him james. I'm having trouble with it in my fanfic actually, because its got to the point now where he3's burnt his letter in a act of trying to get over the past and kate is now calling him 'james' but it still feels strange to call him it! I definetly think the fact that the others are goping to be calling him it may make either kate or jack bring him up on it, maybe more likely to be jack.

As for how sawyer would help with kate's redemption....I think that he has already helped her a lot. In WKD alot of people (mainly the less respectful or immature jaters) took Kate aligning sawyer to her abusive alcoholic father wayne to be a bad thing and a reason why she wont ever choose sawyer. However, I read it in a different way. Kate obviously doesn't think that sawyer beats women or would make incestuous comments, it isn't necessarily his actions that remind her of wayne, more the way he walks, speaks, maybe some expressions etc. And yes, like she said, it makes her sick BUT through sawyer representing some qualities of Wayne's AND the fact that she obviously sees something of sawyers own character that she likies and finds evry appealing, I think it has helped her overcome some of her bad feeling towards him and therefore some of her self-loathing that he is a part of her. I thought that this was represented perfectly in the change that came over her after she had said about how she sees wayne in sawyer and then when he woke up. She was so openly relieved to see him back, it seemed that wayne for forgotten in that moment and all she could think of was sawyer. I thought this was also shown in the way she reacted to the horse when she took sawyer outside. I took the horse to represent Wayne in her eyes, just like sawyer's boar represented Duckett, and you could see at the end of that ep that she had begun to make peace with the horse (or wayne) and I think that that was largely down to sawyer.

As for my ideal skate moment if I could create one...it would have to be them having a massive row over something where all their past comes brought into it. With sawyer trying to push her away by telling her what he has done and by kate showing him that it wont work because she has done similar things herself and then ending with them having passionate sex in the middle of the jungle. I think that's why i started writing my fanfic actually, so I could write a scene like that!

I'm gonna put this next bit in spoiler code I trhink just to be safe
I can't help but feel cautiously optimistic about skate's chances. Although all this press about this new Juliet character being a love interest for jack does make me nervous because I wouldn't put it past the writers to have deliberately leaked that just to throw us off the scent. It almost seems to good to be true! Although I find the premise that kate is going to choose anyone very strange. they are in captivity, hardkly seems the ideal place for her to finally "pick a lover." I mean what does she do, turn around and say to whoever, congratulations I've finally decided to choose you? I think there wil be far more to it than that, that the others will manipulate the situation as some kind of test, maybe she has to pick on to stay with her and the other gets released...who knows, but i think she will be forced into that decision somehow, so I'm taking all these spoilers with a pinch of salt. Although I will be mad as hell if the writers pull some self sacrificing crap out of the bag for sawyer just so jack and kate can be together, I think I'll probablly puke on my tv!

Jeeze, I rambled a bit lol! I think I'll go write more of my poor neglected fanfic, I did miss it while I was gone!

The only thing I'm worried about...

In terms of this new woman who may or may not earn Jack's interest...is that if Kate is supposed to make her choice between Jack and Sawyer very soon...what if she chooses Jack, but Jack is no longer interested. Now, one way or another, I don't think Kate's 'choice' will be FINAL until we see the final episode of Lost ;). I think she may make a definitive decision for NOW, but the initial triangle will always be there. I'm just SLIGHTLY worried that Jack's getting a new woman because Kate is finally going to decide to go for him, but suddently there will be a new unforseen barriet :undecide: . I'm fairly confident that Skate is going to have some great stuff this year...but that's the only nagging thought in the back of my mind. ;)

The only thing I'm worried about...

In terms of this new woman who may or may not earn Jack's interest...is that if Kate is supposed to make her choice between Jack and Sawyer very soon...what if she chooses Jack, but Jack is no longer interested. Now, one way or another, I don't think Kate's 'choice' will be FINAL until we see the final episode of Lost ;). I think she may make a definitive decision for NOW, but the initial triangle will always be there. I'm just SLIGHTLY worried that Jack's getting a new woman because Kate is finally going to decide to go for him, but suddently there will be a new unforseen barriet :undecide: . I'm fairly confident that Skate is going to have some great stuff this year...but that's the only nagging thought in the back of my mind. ;)



That's my fear as well. I suppose that no matter how they spin it, ultimately, if Kate chooses Jack, he will always be Kate's first choice even if he finds himself not "interested" in Kate right now. Thus making this Juliet and Sawyer by extention another barrier for the two. Sawyer will always be her second choice which is unfair, and pretty sorry, because Kate is anything but a second choice for him.

I wouldn't fret too much about it...IMO, there was absolutely nothing romantically implied in that look. Jack was the one who had told them that he had a plan, so Kate was simply telling Jack "yep, I'm ready to initiate The Plan, on your signal" with the whole 'blink once for yes' look. Sawyer's look was saying the exact same thing...and the fact that they included a shot of Sawyer there, looking intently at Jack, says it all. Sawyer & Kate are simply ready to back up Jack's plan. Nothing romantic there, in any direction...it was just a "let's roll" thing.

That's how I saw it, leastways. :smile:

:shesaid: - I agree. Anyway, I certainly think romance was the last thing on their minds at that point when they had just been captured by a bunch of lunatics for all they know :doh:
100%

I just had a thought about the Kates reaction to James thing. What if Kate knew his real name a long time ago? I mean do you think at the age of 8 that Sawyer would sign a letter he wrote with his real name? I think its more than likely that he would. And Kate read that letter, more than once. Maybe were not gonna get a huge reaction out of her, if she already figured out in CM that Sawyers real name was James. It would still be nice to have her address it though. I think when the others presumably start calling him James more and more, she could be forced to address it.

I always thought too that Kate must have known Sawyer's name was James before Locke ever started calling him that just because she never reacted to hearing this name, so I think you could well be right Girlspy.

wow i am so lost now... beautiful thoughts everyone that's all i can say.

I wondered about Lockes motives too in calling him James. I'm in agreement with the idea that Locke's a student of human nature, and knows there's a reason why Sawyer doesn't go by his real name. Your name is your identity, it's how you define yourself and how others define you. Locke may continue to call him that cause he knows it's having an effect, and maybe get under his skin a bit. And you can clearly tell it bothers him. I myself have a hard time thinking of him as anyone but Sawyer, cause that's what we know him as. I too rarely thing of it terms of the original Sawyer, it's just who he is. I do think he needs both aspects of himself, the James and the Sawyer aspect in order to be healthy person. The good and the bad, light and dark, the yin and yang so to speak.

As for next season...
I do so hope that it dosen't happen in a way that Saweyr is her second choice that would patently unfair to him, never mind the fact that he already thinks that anyways.. but i also hope that this Juliet is in FACT a love interest for Jack and not another tool to simple make Kate jealous. Cause that's been done already. If she picks Sawyer i want here to choose him on his own merits, not cause she coudn't have Jack. That would just be wrong and terribly unfair IMO

Anyways i'm keepin positive vibes for now :biggrin:

As far as the infamous 'look' goes, I am sort of on board with what Gregg Nations had to say about it. I think it's perfectly in character for Kate to look to Jack (the leader) for reassurance that everything would be alright. Jack was, after all, the one driving the mission, and is the de facto person they all look to for the major decisions. I also think we are all aware that Kate pretty much idolizes/admires him as well. So I have no problems with Jack trying to tell her with his eyes that everything will be okay, Kate taking comfort from that and Sawyer just being plain mad at the situation.

What I think it's NOT is any kind of romantic affirmation of their undying true love, or other such nonsense. I have read arguments that they thought they were gonna die right then and never see each other again, and had to give each other one last look of love. Umm, no. It's pretty clear in the scene that the Other's want them alive. They could have killed them at any time. They let Mike and Walt go, and it is specifically said they're taking them home, back to their camp. There was no reason to believe they were going to be executed on the spot, or killed soon after. That is a wild assumption in order to justify the reasoning behind the looks, in my opinion.:biggrin:

Zoriah that's exactly the way i see that too now. I was a little po'd about it at first but when i stepped back and look at it objectivly that's wha ti got out of it too. Although i think Sawyer's perception of it is key to reactions next seaon. He definatly didn't care for it that much. I for one can't wait to see the fireworks.. no matter what happens here.

Was I the only one who thought Sawyer looked generally pissed about being in that situation, and like Kate, was looking to Jack in a, "What now?" way?

He looked a little po'd but i still wonder about what.. i go back and forth.. so your not the only one.

He could've been mad about the situation or he could've been mad about Kate looking at Jack.. i think we really need the script notes for this one.

A bit of both? ;)

Could be. Given the fact that Kate had enlisted him when she went all commando on the "Others"...and that she was still looking to Jack for reassurance despite the fact that he brought them out there knowing, or at least suspecting Michael had been compromised.


So, yeah...I guess irritation/anger on his part is rational.

it could've been like 'hellloooo i'm here too ya know?" LOL But yeah i could the irritaion at being in that situation and a bit of jealousy on his part.. he hasn't shown any of that that lately has he? ;) I thought Gregg's thoughts were interesting on that considering he reads the scripts and all.

Hi I'm back!

I doubt Sawyer is overwhelmed by anything Jack/Kate at this moment. I'd say first of all that he is pretty unhappy about the confinement, and pissed at Jack for having his "plan".

Could be. Given the fact that Kate had enlisted him when she went all commando on the "Others"...and that she was still looking to Jack for reassurance despite the fact that he brought them out there knowing, or at least suspecting Michael had been compromised.
So, yeah...I guess irritation/anger on his part is rational.

I agree with this post, but not just Kate specifically, also the disappointment in Jack for not having a better plan and witholding important info, michael for been such a rat and selling them down the river, the fact that his backup is not exactly top-notch and the overall personal feeling of letdown for not been able to control the situation must have been very frustrating for a man like Sawyer to absorb all at once, so I guess his 'look' defined the mix of exasperation he had every right to be feeling at that moment ... with the natural sexyness only Josh can produce of course. I :heart: :cowboy:

:cowboy:

OOOOOH! I :heart: this avi! Fits in with Lisa's current fanfic, too! :biggrin:

Aaaaaand...another Skate vid. What can I say...I'm on a roll. ;)

'Walk Away' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vDNBEEuLVQ) - Kelly Clarkson

and a couple of others that I'm not sure I dropped off here...

'Black Horse and the Cherry Tree' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGKLdDppMrQ) - KT Tunstall

'So Alive' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJYlqCKI1Sk) - Love & Rockets

Enjoy! :smile:

I agree with this post, but not just Kate specifically, also the disappointment in Jack for not having a better plan and witholding important info, michael for been such a rat and selling them down the river, the fact that his backup is not exactly top-notch and the overall personal feeling of letdown for not been able to control the situation must have been very frustrating for a man like Sawyer to absorb all at once, so I guess his 'look' defined the mix of exasperation he had every right to be feeling at that moment ... with the natural sexyness only Josh can produce of course. I :heart: :cowboy:

Yeah, that plan, or lack there of was mind-boggling dumb. Guess that's what happens when people DON'T TALK TO ONE ANOTHER!!! :rolleyes:

Yeah, that plan, or lack there of was mind-boggling dumb. Guess that's what happens when people DON'T TALK TO ONE ANOTHER!!! :rolleyes:

wait.... you mean people don't talk to eachother on that island??:eek2: I'm shocked, i tell you! Shcoked!!! :biggrin:

wait.... you mean people don't talk to eachother on that island??:eek2: I'm shocked, i tell you! Shcoked!!! :biggrin:


I know, I can hardly believe it myself. I mean, with very little to do, and even fewer distractions like tv, computers, phones to eat up their time. Not communicating with one another seems down right preposterous. :rolleyes:

Well, i'm back, and i had a great time except for the horrible allergy attack. :mad: i should have remembered that flowers bloom in southern AZ pretty much year round!

First off, did anyone else realize that "Juliet" is Mrs. Clause and that they're making another sequel to the Santa Clause? i thought she looked familliar but couldn't place her and i missed that when i read her filmography at imdb. i liked the first Santa Clause but the second stunk and i don't have high hopes for the third, especiall without David Krumholtz... who i'm sure was too busy with his new TV show.

Way off topic there, but moving onward because i have got a lot of catching up to do!

What kind of relationship is Sawyer going to have with Charlie after what they did together to Sun?
i think that it's pretty clear that Sawyer and Charlie don't have much of a relationship at all but that we will be seeing more of the dark side of Charlie.

If Sawyer is to apologize to Sun (which he should) in what setting does this happen?
i doubt that Sawyer is going to apologize to anyone, it's not his style, but it would be great to see him regretting what he's done. i think if he ever starts apologizing that it'll be to Kate, first, but i won't hold my breath for him to start a twelve step plan any time soon. :rolleyes:

ITA Darbi!

Here's a good example... what in the heck is ITA? :confused:

Hi, I only wanted to tell you that I am a Jater with sympathy for you Skaters. I love Sawyer and would have no problem if Skate happened. Lost-forum doesn´t allow any visits of the other ship any more and I miss Skater friends and their different point of view. Will you allow me to slip in here now and then?

Extremism like that really irks me as i have lots of friends who i love to disagree with and/or have totally different opinions. As a Hufflepuff i'm sure you love to see every side of an issue and make peace. ;) Anyways, it's always good to expand your understanding of others in order to strengthen your own good views and weaken your bad ones (kind of un-Gryffindor of me, but i think APWBD would approve!). And btw, what you say here is awesome and very uncommon for a Jater.

I think Sawyer´s character is developing more and more because he is no more only the bad guy who tries to get Kate into his tent. It is great to see how much potential James has with interactions to more other castaways and getting involved in important activities for the group. IMO Sawyer is scared to death of any emotional relationship while on the other hand he needs love and friendship so badly! Watching the sad and lonely expression on his face when he thinks nobody looks at him always makes me cry and wanting to comfort him. And what a hell of an acting of Josh Holloway! What he can express without words is amazing!

Yeah, i guess i'd say that i want Jack to be happy too, even if he is a jerk. :rolleyes: i can't help but feeling sorry for him anyway. :biggrin: Re: Sawyer, i will agree that he's scared of a real relationship, but not that he's given up on Kate.

Me too...I do have one concern based on the recent leaks about the "new girl" for Jack. I do not want to see Sawyer get Kate by default i.e. because Jack is no longer interested in her. I really would like to see Kate make a clear choice between Jack and Sawyer. If she doesn't, I think Sawyer will feel that he is second best and that she would have choosen Jack (who he percieves as the "better" choice) had he been available. IMO they could script the storyline to protect their "hero's" image and not allow him to lose Kate to Sawyer -- so they will come up with a "new girl" for him and have him turn away from Kate. I don't know if I am saying this well, but I want Kate to choose between Jack and Sawyer.....clearly choosing Sawyer and then they can pair Jack up with someone else.

:wub: That said, I really do feel we Skaters have a lot of good stuff to look forward to in Season Three....finally!

Well said! imho Kate's already chosen, she just hasn't come to terms with it yet. Hopefully this next ep will explain a lot of things.about Kate's history that will explain in more detail why she's so indecisive. But i'm sick of Jack being the default winner all the time when it seems so obvious to me that he's only really thought of her as a sister and is an overprotective older brother.

I think Kate knows to a certain degree that she can have Sawyer if she wants & I think she'd want him more if he presented more of a challenge for her - I wonder if finding about Sana might make her realise that she does indeed want him? As it usually happens for most of us at the beg. of a relationship or at the possibility of a relationship, we want the other person more if we know we can't just have them, even if we really like that person to begin with - does this make sense? Maybe we'll see Kate's jealousy when she hears about Ana-Lucia and Sawyer ?

An interesting spin on the idea of what Kate with think about Sawyer and AL... i'm not sure i understand why she'd want it to be a challenge, but it certainly might get her thinking, right?

Sawyer is so important for Kate! With him life is easy! They have fun together. I love the scene as they were swimming in the lake before noticing the dead bodies. Sawyer and Kate were happy and careless like children. Everybody on the island so badly needs some rest to come over their post-traumatic stress. James provides this for everybody who lets him.
There are moments when I am really angry with Kate. After the Hunting Party when Jack ignored her and Sawyer tried to cheer her up every time Jack came in sight Kate completely ignored James smiling at Jack. Sawyer did deserve a better treatment! But Kate´s actions tell me it is Jack she wants what is the reason for me to be a Jater. Sawyer knows that at least since "The Moth" I think.
Sawyer deserves someone whose first choice he is and I can´t see Kate as this woman. By the way I am convinced James was talking about Cassidy, not Kate as he said:"I love her."
Please tell me if I go too far by expressing my point of view. I don´t want to be annoying. Perhaps you don´t understand my very careful acting but I got a warning on LF because in a review to a Skate fic I love I mentioned I am a Jater (what everybody there knows).

Having a different opinion isn't bad as long as you're respectful of other views. But imho a character doesn't always know what's best for them, the way Jack acted in said scene negates any chance he had with Kate, and i disagree about the "I love her". But i don't get the big deal about having a different opinion but reading a fic anyway cuz i'm a Harry/Ginny fan but still read Harry/Hermione or Harry/Cho stuff and can enjoy it.:confused:

Btw i was talkin about this on ABC but i love their little acknowledgement of their kiss in that scene. Sawyer says with the cutest look in his face "for example, i've never kissed a man.... now you drink.. cause you've kissed a man.." The script pointing out that his implication was 'that man being him' And Kate just smiles, rolls her eyes and drinks. In that that short space of time, they acknowleged, show they were ok about it and that niether one of them regretted it. A beautiful moment :biggrin:

i'd never thought of it that way, but that's awesome. Now i have to get my dvd back out! i wish there were more hours in the day for watching Lost!
100%
So we have discussed how Kate would help Sawyer with his redemption, but how would Sawyer help Kate with hers?

Well, in accepting her as she is i think that he will be the one to help her change. Sawyer knows who she is so she won't have to run away or hide. They're equals so they can face anything together. She can forget the past and look to the future. She can be happy. But everyone else can say it so much better than i can!

What's to make of this?

who is she supposed to be? http://www.thetailsection.com/

As far as the infamous 'look' goes, I am sort of on board with what Gregg Nations had to say about it. I think it's perfectly in character for Kate to look to Jack (the leader) for reassurance that everything would be alright. Jack was, after all, the one driving the mission, and is the de facto person they all look to for the major decisions. I also think we are all aware that Kate pretty much idolizes/admires him as well. So I have no problems with Jack trying to tell her with his eyes that everything will be okay, Kate taking comfort from that and Sawyer just being plain mad at the situation.

What I think it's NOT is any kind of romantic affirmation of their undying true love, or other such nonsense. I have read arguments that they thought they were gonna die right then and never see each other again, and had to give each other one last look of love. Umm, no. It's pretty clear in the scene that the Other's want them alive. They could have killed them at any time. They let Mike and Walt go, and it is specifically said they're taking them home, back to their camp. There was no reason to believe they were going to be executed on the spot, or killed soon after. That is a wild assumption in order to justify the reasoning behind the looks, in my opinion.:biggrin:

Wow, you have actually made some sense out of the sludge of that scene! But yeah, i totally agree that we need the script notes.

Btw, too much pessimism in here! i don't think Kate's gonna go to Jack no way, no how, let alone be spurned by him. Rather the opposite, i think he's going to be the one left wanting if there's going to be any such spin. Chirk up, honey pot! ;)

Well, joemamaah, a lot of speculation seems to think

Nikki (Ms. Sanchez' character's name) is going to be the love interest for the Rodrigo Santoro character.
But I think it's a little early to speculate TOO much.

Season Three shooting is under way, though! And THAT is truly good news! :biggrin:

My take on Skate relations in the early eppys is
that her fears of being "imprisoned" and his angst over The Others calling him James will be the starting point for their relationship growing further!

Anyone seen Lisa? I'm just sooooo anxious for Chapter 21! :book:

nothing but positive vibes here Muchacha :biggrin: i'm good about the future of Skate...
Here's a good example... what in the heck is ITA? :confused:


ITA means 'In Total Agreement'

i'd never thought of it that way, but that's awesome. Now i have to get my dvd back out! i wish there were more hours in the day for watching Lost!


i had just picked up on that myself recently, never really thought of it until someone brought up on the ABC thread whether or not the Skate kiss was 'acknowledged' In other words did they ever mention it. They did in that scene :biggrin: it's one of those things you don't notice in the context of things but it was there. With very little fanfare like alot of things they do..

ITA also means 'I Totally Agree'... but the gist of it is 'WORD' ;)

Hi Kristina, nice to see you around here again.

It is nice to be back! I didn't realize how much I missed you all until I came back! But I had a baby 3 weeks ago and newborns really takes a lot of time.... And being 8 months pregnant in the middle of the hottest summer in 20 years is also a bit exhausting ;)


I wouldn't fret too much about it...IMO, there was absolutely nothing romantically implied in that look. Jack was the one who had told them that he had a plan, so Kate was simply telling Jack "yep, I'm ready to initiate The Plan, on your signal" with the whole 'blink once for yes' look. Sawyer's look was saying the exact same thing...and the fact that they included a shot of Sawyer there, looking intently at Jack, says it all. Sawyer & Kate are simply ready to back up Jack's plan. Nothing romantic there, in any direction...it was just a "let's roll" thing.

That's how I saw it, leastways. :smile:

When you put it like that, it makes so much sense!!! Ok, now I'm not so unhappy about the ending any more :lol: But I would still have preferred K/S exchanging one of the looks only they can, letting their eyes telling everything........ :undecide:

Yeah, at first I was annoyed by that look, the fact that she turned to jack and not sawyer. But then when I watched it the second time it made much more sense. Jack told them both that he had a plan involving Sayid, and Kate was just looking at him as if to say "so when's this plan kicking into action?" I also thought sawyer was also looking at Jack in a similar way, because he also knew jack said he had a plan, but of course sawyer looking pi$$ed off as well because they are in captivity and I don't think he has as much faith in jack as kate does to get them out of this somehow.

That's just the way I read it I guess.

As for Kate finding out he screwed ana lulu, it might force sawyer inot admitting some of his true feelings for her. I'm not saying he'd profess undying love, cos its not his style, but in a way it might be a good thing, and might make kate realise that sawyer has feelings for her that run deeper than friendship and/or lust.

Yeah I agree with everybody. I don't think there was romantic insinuation in the way that Kate looked at Jack. He IS the leader, and even if he sometimes makes questionable choices, people have come to expect that he is at least going to come up with some kind of plan, or make a decision when it needs to be made. I thought the look was more about Kate needing to project her worry towards Jack and get some type of reassurance back. And the fact that he does share a friendship with Kate as well, is obviously going to add to that as well.

In an entrapment situation, Sawyer isn't really the 'let's hatch a plan guy'. He's the "let's pull at my ropes until my hands bleed" guy. It's not that he's not smart...but he projects his anger outwards very quickly, and he needs time to calm down before he starts to think about the big picture. His look of pure rage demonstrated that. While both Kate and Jack can certainly fly off the handle, they're also more natural 'problem solvers'.

In an entrapment situation, Sawyer isn't really the 'let's hatch a plan guy'. He's the "let's pull at my ropes until my hands bleed" guy. It's not that he's not smart...but he projects his anger outwards very quickly, and he needs time to calm down before he starts to think about the big picture. His look of pure rage demonstrated that. While both Kate and Jack can certainly fly off the handle, they're also more natural 'problem solvers'.

So true.

Hopefully, we'll see the three of them calming down long enough to come up with a good plan to escape.

But while they're there, I can't wait to see Sawyer and Fenry interact. Something tells me that's going to be extremely entertaining. ;)

So true.

Hopefully, we'll see the three of them calming down long enough to come up with a good plan to escape.

But while they're there, I can't wait to see Sawyer and Fenry interact. Something tells me that's going to be extremely entertaining. ;)


I'm with you there Darbi. I think there deffinately is the potential for some really interesting moments between Sawyer and Fenry. I also want to see some interaction between Sawyer and Tom (Zeke). They can't just let that drop after the whole "We're not done yet, Zeke" moment in THP.

I'm with you there Darbi. I think there deffinately is the potential for some really interesting moments between Sawyer and Fenry. I also want to see some interaction between Sawyer and Tom (Zeke). They can't just let that drop after the whole "We're not done yet, Zeke" moment in THP.

Definitely not. Can you imagine the level of frustration and flat annoyance Sawyer would cause the two of them by just being himself. :laughing:

Definitely not. Can you imagine the level of frustration and flat annoyance Sawyer would cause the two of them by just being himself. :laughing:

that would just be Sawyer being Sawyer :biggrin: it would be lovely to watch now wouldn't it? Oh that snark would go into overdrive :roflmao: We'll have new nicknames :biggrin:

I was watching the two finale episodes of season 2 earlier, and I think one of my favourite skate moments has to be when they pull the guns on those two others. I love the way she deliberately chooses sawyer, and lets Jack walk past. She knows that sawyer thinks like her, that he will trust her judgement and not question her or try to control the situation like jack would. Its so cool when she's like "are you in?" And they pull the guns! People have to be crazy if they think she is better suited to Jack! I also love the look of compleate and utter fraustration kate has after the shoot one of the others but the other on gets away and she wants to go after him, she calls for sawyer and they are going to go when jack keeps yelling at them to stop. You just know that that look is because of him!

I really hope we see kate and sawyer pair up more in season 3 for some similar kick a$$ action!

that would just be Sawyer being Sawyer :biggrin: it would be lovely to watch now wouldn't it? Oh that snark would go into overdrive :roflmao: We'll have new nicknames :biggrin:

Tons of them. :laughing:

Raven i would love to see more of that. I love the Bonnie and Clyde moment, and how Jack and the other almost crapped themselves when they opened fire like that. Great scene, right up there among my favs. I love how they stood up at the same time and opened fire, completly in sync with one another.

And Darbi i'd love it if Sawyer called Fenry Dr. Lecter or something that would be perfect :biggrin:

I've been trying really hard to picture what on earth is gonna happen in season three. Especially with this whole Kate's gonna make a choice, or pick a lover, choose your phrasing lol. For some reason I just can't picture her choosing either of them. I guess I always thought it would be a long way down the line before she would be ready for a relationship, which is why I keep thinking she must be forced somehow into picking one of them. I do have a feeling that the others arn't going to be the biggest bad on thwe island, and that one of the reasons they have picked those three is because of their influence on the group, which at first makes no sense considering no one follows what sawyer says, but imagine if sawyer actually backed up something that jack was doing, eg telling the group that they need to work with the others etc, I would have thought the group would be more inclined to agree as sawyer NEVER agrees with anything jack does. Does this make any sense or am I just rambling? Lol, I am incredibly bord!

I was also thinking earlier on about kate's reaction after sawyer pulled the long con, and the way she says "why do you always have to do this?" I really get the impression that she thought the two of them had grown so much closer since she nursed him back to health and were beginning to reach a new level with each other, just for him to use her and push her away. I really do think that that showed she had genuine romantic feelings for him. It also gave me the impression that if only he would take the risk and tell her how he feels, even only slightly, that she would choose him. But I guess from her perspective she really can't know how sawyer feels about her, he's so up and down all the time. With jack, its pretty obvious when she kissed him and he responded and when he told her he wasn't soprry about the kiss. That worries me slightly because from her perspective if she reveals to sawyer she has feelings for him then she thinks he may turn her down, wheras I think she is more sure of jack affection. He is the safer choice emotionally. lets all hope kate is stronger than that and takes a risk, or that by some miracle sawyer admits some of his feelings to her.

Wow, even more of a ramble...I think I might stop now lol!

Raven i would love to see more of that. I love the Bonnie and Clyde moment, and how Jack and the other almost crapped themselves when they opened fire like that. Great scene, right up there among my favs. I love how they stood up at the same time and opened fire, completly in sync with one another.

And Darbi i'd love it if Sawyer called Fenry Dr. Lecter or something that would be perfect :biggrin:

Or Dr. Evil. :roflmao:

Or Dr. Evil. :roflmao:

:rotflmao: Darbi i used that AND Dr. Lecter in my latest fic LOL it's gotta be those Skate minds.:biggrin: i would postivily die if he used either one of those, it shows how well we know him hehehehehe

wait.... you mean people don't talk to eachother on that island??:eek2: I'm shocked, i tell you! Shcoked!!! :biggrin:

And I thought I was the only one who wondered that...

Okay outkasters, let's see how would Sawyer help Kate with her redemption? Excellent question...

Basically, I think he already has, in so far as he's shown her something that she hasn't had yet, and that is someone who loves her for her. Even as much as I hate it, her mother didn't even put her as that valuable. She ratted out her own daughter to avenge her husband and an abusive husband at that. I cannot seem to get past that. But Sawyer is already showing Kate something she appears to have never had and that is that there is another man who loves her simply because she is her. All her faults, her abuse issues, her feelings of never being good, don't matter to him. She is his Kate and that's enough for him.

Whether he knows this himself and is willing to acknowledge it anywhere other than his thoughts remains to be seen.

Huggs ya'll,
Lisa ;)

I've been trying really hard to picture what on earth is gonna happen in season three. Especially with this whole Kate's gonna make a choice, or pick a lover, choose your phrasing lol. For some reason I just can't picture her choosing either of them. I guess I always thought it would be a long way down the line before she would be ready for a relationship, which is why I keep thinking she must be forced somehow into picking one of them. I do have a feeling that the others arn't going to be the biggest bad on thwe island, and that one of the reasons they have picked those three is because of their influence on the group, which at first makes no sense considering no one follows what sawyer says, but imagine if sawyer actually backed up something that jack was doing, eg telling the group that they need to work with the others etc, I would have thought the group would be more inclined to agree as sawyer NEVER agrees with anything jack does. Does this make any sense or am I just rambling? Lol, I am incredibly bord!

I'm not in the least bit opposed to that being Kate's choice. In fact, I'd really love it if that ends up being the case.

I was also thinking earlier on about kate's reaction after sawyer pulled the long con, and the way she says "why do you always have to do this?" I really get the impression that she thought the two of them had grown so much closer since she nursed him back to health and were beginning to reach a new level with each other, just for him to use her and push her away. I really do think that that showed she had genuine romantic feelings for him. It also gave me the impression that if only he would take the risk and tell her how he feels, even only slightly, that she would choose him. But I guess from her perspective she really can't know how sawyer feels about her, he's so up and down all the time. With jack, its pretty obvious when she kissed him and he responded and when he told her he wasn't soprry about the kiss. That worries me slightly because from her perspective if she reveals to sawyer she has feelings for him then she thinks he may turn her down, wheras I think she is more sure of jack affection. He is the safer choice emotionally. lets all hope kate is stronger than that and takes a risk, or that by some miracle sawyer admits some of his feelings to her.

Wow, even more of a ramble...I think I might stop now lol!

I think you're right. I believe Sawyer's return helped Kate to hurdle a huge mountain of her issues...freeing her to believe in herself again. Like you, I think she was ready to move on with Sawyer, but was really taken a back when he pulled the con. Not only was she hurt because he used her, she was angered/disappointed and seemingly scared for him, and what he was doing to himself.

Just speculating here, but I think with Jack, Kate's heart really isn't at risk. She's secure (as far as Kate can be secure in anything) that he genuinely cares and is attracted to her, and wouldn't intentionally hurt her emotionally. With Sawyer, it would be a complete gamble. If anyone knows what lengths Sawyer is willing to go in protecting himself, it's Kate, because she would do the same when pushed. They have different ways of going about it...but it boils down to the same thing. Investing her heart in a relationship with Sawyer could either be the best thing that's every happened to her, or the most devastating. (well, outside of blowing up Wayne, that is) For all the ambigitious, grey areas that make up who they are...that's the one thing that's completely black and white.

I think i agree with that too. I think she knows where she stands with Jack better than with Sawyer. So it is less of a risk on that level. Jack isn't likely to hurt her in the ways Sawyer is capable of, esp when he gets scared. And we mentioned it before but i think you all right about why she was so terribly upset with what he did in TLC. She had allowed herself to get close to him, opened up in a vulnerable way only have to have him push back hard like that and close up. It can make you leery of opening up like that again. So she turns back towards Jack, knowing the likelihood of him doing somethhing that extreme is lower. Less risk there.

But i do think you are also right in the sense that knowing that he felt deeper things for her than just what he puts on the surface would make a huge difference in the way she saw things. Casue she dosen't really know. And i think he's having a harder time hiding it lately, so sooner or later it might be become more apparent.

But i do think you are also right in the sense that knowing that he felt deeper things for her than just what he puts on the surface would make a huge difference in the way she saw things. Casue she dosen't really know. And i think he's having a harder time hiding it lately, so sooner or later it might be become more apparent.

I really hope you're right! Just looking at his blantent reaction of relief when he finds out that all jack and kate did was actually get caught in a net, and that it wasn't a euphamism for sex is really telling I think. he just couldn't hide how pleased he was that it wasn't true, and if she realised what he thought had happened she would realise the extent of his feelings for her. Same as in THP. I love the way the camera shows you the reaction of both sawyer and jack when Zeke brings kate out. Jack looks pi$$ed off because she disobeyed him. With sawyer would see anger, worry and fear wash over his face almost simultaneously. its like what soeone poseted before, about Josh's ability to convey such amazing facial expressions. it is obvious in that instant that he cares deeply about her, if that was anyone else that had been captured his reaction wouldn't have been that intense.

Lets hope that kate is put in some kind of peril (but not the dying kind) where sawyer can't help but show how deeply he cares about her!

i couldn't get over his reaction in THP when they had her. His first thought was to step forward and try to grab her. He was transparent there. He went from being mildly interested to complete concern for her and anger that hey had her at gunpoint. I was so happy for that epi cause it showed everyone else what we knew all along. That 'if you harm one hair on her head' line was so cute and so menacing at the same time.. That's always been my impression of that. I think Zeke would've been pushing up daisies had any harm come to her. And then when they let her go caught her and hugged her to him briefly before untying her. I wonder if she remembers that or not... cause it seemed like alot of her attention was on Jack at the time. And the thing is, this didn't seem to bother Sawyer that much, almost like he expected it. He just gave her some moral support and let it be.

I think that's my 3rd fav epi of the year cause of that more than anything. :biggrin:

I think one of the reasons that Kate was so dissapointed in Sawyer in the Long Con was that Kate wants Sawyer to be good WITH her. Part of what holds her back with Sawyer is that she is afraid that he's too much of a reflection of the things she doesn't like about herself. She's drawn to him because they understand eachother, but at the same time she doesn't WANT to understand him, because he's a 'bad guy' and she's trying so hard on the island to come across as someone who's 'good'.

After Sawyer came back from the other side of the island, everyone started to look at him differently. Suddenly he was popular and considered almost a hero by everyone because he'd gotten shot trying to save Walt. He was now someone on THEIR side who was tried to stand up to the bad guys. Kate teased him about it, but I think she loved it because she could hang out with him and still get that sense of comfort from the fact that they're alike, but not feel badly about the connection they have. In the first season whenever Kate was with Sawyer in public she always pulled away from him (except during Solitary...which is still one of my all-time favourite Skate moments). She would let her guard down around him in private, but she didn't want anyone else to see it. In Season two however, she seemed happy about spending time with him in public. They were always smiling and hanging out together, and Kate wasn't guarded about that.

But in the Long Con, Sawyer made sure to turn everyone against him again. He reminded them that he wans't a 'good guy'...and went out of his way to make people dislike him. When she said "Why do you always have to do this?", she seemed angry, but also kind of hurt and frustrated. By reverting back to his old self, it was like making a statment that people can't change (he said so himself) and that upsets Kate because she desperately wants to be seen differently than she has been in the past. I think she kind of felt like maybe they were both on a good path, and suddenly he abandoned her.

I really hope you're right! Just looking at his blantent reaction of relief when he finds out that all jack and kate did was actually get caught in a net, and that it wasn't a euphamism for sex is really telling I think. he just couldn't hide how pleased he was that it wasn't true, and if she realised what he thought had happened she would realise the extent of his feelings for her. Same as in THP. I love the way the camera shows you the reaction of both sawyer and jack when Zeke brings kate out. Jack looks pi$$ed off because she disobeyed him. With sawyer would see anger, worry and fear wash over his face almost simultaneously. its like what soeone poseted before, about Josh's ability to convey such amazing facial expressions. it is obvious in that instant that he cares deeply about her, if that was anyone else that had been captured his reaction wouldn't have been that intense.

Lets hope that kate is put in some kind of peril (but not the dying kind) where sawyer can't help but show how deeply he cares about her!

ITA :biggrin: You and fricksgurl put it so well that i can really add much to it!

That's the thing about Skate. Sawyer in the latter part of the season, despite his growing jealousy and fear of getting too close, was there for Kate - boosting her morale and offering emotional support - without expecting anything back. Another telling thing is that Kate seemed hurt about the Long Con, but a lot of her concern was about the self destructiveness of his behaviour, her knowledge that he had done it more to hurt himself than others.

great post Queenie ITA

i think that's the main difference with the 2 of them in a nutshell. Kate badly wants the acceptance. She wants to be seen as good and part of the group. She wants deperately to be considered a good person. To be a better person. And she wanted that for Sawyer too, for his sake as well as to justify her feelings for him in a sense by having him be accepted like her. And she was terribly hurt that he wouldn't allow that to happen.

Sawyer rejects that cause he's stuck in the idea that he can't change, that he is what he is. He's scared of being accepted and loved, even though deep down he does want it. He needs to be the 'bad' guy cause that's all he knows and thinks of himself as. So he makes himself that again, essentially telling everyone 'see i'm jerk, and i don't give a rat's patootie about any of you' . That's familar and comfortable for him, unlike the confusion he felt at being 'accepted' so to speak.

i have a headache, i hope that made sense...:redface:

That's the thing about Skate. Sawyer in the latter part of the season, despite his growing jealousy and fear of getting too close, was there for Kate - boosting her morale and offering emotional support - without expecting anything back. Another telling thing is that Kate seemed hurt about the Long Con, but a lot of her concern was about the self destructiveness of his behaviour, her knowledge that he had done it more to hurt himself than others.

:shesaid: Wow guys, great thoughts! And Zoriah, I really love your avi. One thing that kinda surprised me about the end half of the season was that even though Kate was really mad at Sawyer she kept doing stuff with him. They just can't stay away from each other for very long at a time. I can't remember where I heard it (probably here by one of you wonderfully well spoken folks), but it's kinda the whole moth drawn to a flame thing. Kate just seems drawn to Sawyer whether she wants to admit it or not.

Great vids IceKat. Keep em coming. :)

I'd really love it if that ends up being the case. I think you're right. I believe Sawyer's return helped Kate to hurdle a huge mountain of her issues...freeing her to believe in herself again. Like you, I think she was ready to move on with Sawyer, but was really taken a back when he pulled the con. Not only was she hurt because he used her, she was angered/disappointed and seemingly scared for him, and what he was doing to himself.

Just speculating here, but I think with Jack, Kate's heart really isn't at risk. She's secure (as far as Kate can be secure in anything) that he genuinely cares and is attracted to her, and wouldn't intentionally hurt her emotionally. With Sawyer, it would be a complete gamble. If anyone knows what lengths Sawyer is willing to go in protecting himself, it's Kate, because she would do the same when pushed. They have different ways of going about it...but it boils down to the same thing. Investing her heart in a relationship with Sawyer could either be the best thing that's every happened to her, or the most devastating. (well, outside of blowing up Wayne, that is) For all the ambigitious, grey areas that make up who they are...that's the one thing that's completely black and white.

Okay, just had a thought. Theres the name/identity thing with Kate and Sawyer right? IMO I think Kate killed Wayne cause she didnt want to admit that someone like him was a part of her. It shattered her image of the man she thought to be her real father, Sam Austen, the hero who would take her away from that horrible monster. And then she finds out Wayne is her real father, so she kills him. Like trying to kill a part of herself. This is where Sawyer comes in. If Sawyer represents the part that Kate tried to kill and now shes struggling with feelings for him, it would change her whole perspective on things and how she views herself, cause Sawyer is a part of her that she tried to erase. If that makes sense. And possibly the solution for Kate and Sawyer is if they are able to love the other person, they can finally love themselves, cause each of them represent something in the other that they werent able to accept before. Haha, okay, maybe that doesnt make sense, but its the only mildly coherent thought I could get out today, so Im stickin with it. ;)

Great vids IceKat. Keep em coming. :)



Okay, just had a thought. Theres the name/identity thing with Kate and Sawyer right? IMO I think Kate killed Wayne cause she didnt want to admit that someone like him was a part of her. It shattered her image of the man she thought to be her real father, Sam Austen, the hero who would take her away from that horrible monster. And then she finds out Wayne is her real father, so she kills him. Like trying to kill a part of herself. This is where Sawyer comes in. If Sawyer represents the part that Kate tried to kill and now shes struggling with feelings for him, it would change her whole perspective on things and how she views herself, cause Sawyer is a part of her that she tried to erase. If that makes sense. And possibly the solution for Kate and Sawyer is if they are able to love the other person, they can finally love themselves, cause each of them represent something in the other that they werent able to accept before. Haha, okay, maybe that doesnt make sense, but its the only mildly coherent thought I could get out today, so Im stickin with it. ;)

WOW! You have just put into words perfectly what I have thought since WKD, but never been able to articulate fully. Sawyer can help kate accept that part of herself that is dark, because although we have seen kate do bad things, there always seems to be something contrasting that shows her as being good. For example, when the plane went down she put the mask on the marshall, when the old man sold her out she risked her freedom to pull him to safety. We see kate struggle with the darkness that is inside her, which is maybe why she tries to be with jack so much, she hopes that he will bring the light out of her even further, while what she has to accept is that there is dark in her and theres no way she can escape that. With sawyer its the other way around, he feels like he is a bad person, knows he is, doesn't think he is ever capable of doing anything good ever again. In one way he is comfortable with his darkness because he's lwet him overtake ghim compleately because he's had to to become the man he is. Its his inherrant goodness that he ins't comfortable with, which is why he never wants to take credit for anything good he does, why he pulled the long con because he hates that people see the good in him because he's terrified of it existing. Kate can help him accept that he is a good person, is capable of acts of heroism and selflessness.

Wow, that seems so clarified in my mind now, thanks girlspy

Raven, Girlspy those are thoughts that i've had too, never been able to articulate them that well though. Kate has tried to deny that darker part of herself but needs to accept and love cause it is part of her. Sawyer has a hard time accepting the good part of himself, refuses to beleive there is anything good in him at all. I've always believe they are like the yin and yang it that aspect, completinng eachother and helping eachoter accept and love themselves fully thtough eachother and that's where i think i think they match up perfectly..

Always such great conversation around here :biggrin:

Welcome back Joemamaah, hope you had a nice week!

I really hope you're right! Just looking at his blantent reaction of relief when he finds out that all jack and kate did was actually get caught in a net, and that it wasn't a euphamism for sex is really telling I think. he just couldn't hide how pleased he was that it wasn't true, and if she realised what he thought had happened she would realise the extent of his feelings for her. Same as in THP. I love the way the camera shows you the reaction of both sawyer and jack when Zeke brings kate out. Jack looks pi$$ed off because she disobeyed him. With sawyer would see anger, worry and fear wash over his face almost simultaneously. its like what soeone poseted before, about Josh's ability to convey such amazing facial expressions. it is obvious in that instant that he cares deeply about her, if that was anyone else that had been captured his reaction wouldn't have been that intense.

Lets hope that kate is put in some kind of peril (but not the dying kind) where sawyer can't help but show how deeply he cares about her!

Absolutely, that would be a fabulous thing to happen, provided Kate would be ok of course & why wouldn't she be if Sawyer reveals the depth of his emotions plainly for her to see?!
I love what you and Fricksgurl said too Ravenmoon about that scene in THP, it was such a wonderful scene wasn't it?
I wonder if Kate will discover what Sawyer really thought being 'caught in a net' meant initially? Would be interesting to see her reaction if she heard the full story. When Sawyer found out that it did literally mean they were caught in a net, I think their conversation was stopped short 'cos of the bird that flew overhead as far as I can remember - would have been great to hear the rest of that conversation if it had continued... would Kate have realised that Sawyer was happy to hear that caught in a net didn't mean what he had thought?

When Sawyer realized that "caught in a net" wasn't sex, his short response made Kate question if they had been talking about her. And she smiled at the thought of it. I think if she didn't like Sawyer, she wouldn't have been smiling. I wish that scene could have continued! D**n bird!

Okay, just had a thought. Theres the name/identity thing with Kate and Sawyer right? IMO I think Kate killed Wayne cause she didnt want to admit that someone like him was a part of her. It shattered her image of the man she thought to be her real father, Sam Austen, the hero who would take her away from that horrible monster. And then she finds out Wayne is her real father, so she kills him. Like trying to kill a part of herself. This is where Sawyer comes in. If Sawyer represents the part that Kate tried to kill and now shes struggling with feelings for him, it would change her whole perspective on things and how she views herself, cause Sawyer is a part of her that she tried to erase. If that makes sense. And possibly the solution for Kate and Sawyer is if they are able to love the other person, they can finally love themselves, cause each of them represent something in the other that they werent able to accept before. Haha, okay, maybe that doesnt make sense, but its the only mildly coherent thought I could get out today, so Im stickin with it. ;)

Oh Heavens, GS, you absolutely nailed it darlin. I certainly agree and that's so true, but I also think that once she realizes that even though Sawyer has tendencies to be like what she thinks Wayne is, he isn't. And she can't see this until she can drop the thinking that a man will hurt her.

Kate has been hurt (from what we know) by every man that's been in her life. Even her "father" Sam, because he said he had to call them. Wayne, I highly suspect, has abused her, even Tom in a way. I think she sees him as having married someone else and that he didn't "take her away" from what her life was. The only man who hasn't hurt her, at least anymore than superficially, is Sawyer. She is constantly going back for more from him and she never ever leaves him and the reason she doesn't is because she knows that above all his posturing and tacky comments and whatever else, she knows he loves her and she knows she loves him. Even Jack, whom she's supposed to care so much for, cannot look at her as an equal. In Jack's eyes even she's less than he is. This has been evidenced in THP, and even in Season 1 in WTCMB when he was yelling at her about the plane.

Aside from wanting Sawyer's place on the raft, there's been very little anger between them and even after that, he made his "apology" to her. And don't even get me started on the way he was begging to her to stop him from being on the raft.

At least that's how I see it.

Huggs,
Lisa ;)

Hi Midnight! yes, it was HOT out on the lake, but fun in the water. The kids had a blast!

There are so many pages to catch up on. Lots of real depth of emotion to mull over. And I've come to the conclusion that if Kate doesn't fly into Sawyer's arms as fast as she can, she's out ot her mind!

Great vids IceKat. Keep em coming. :)



Okay, just had a thought. Theres the name/identity thing with Kate and Sawyer right? IMO I think Kate killed Wayne cause she didnt want to admit that someone like him was a part of her. It shattered her image of the man she thought to be her real father, Sam Austen, the hero who would take her away from that horrible monster. And then she finds out Wayne is her real father, so she kills him. Like trying to kill a part of herself. This is where Sawyer comes in. If Sawyer represents the part that Kate tried to kill and now shes struggling with feelings for him, it would change her whole perspective on things and how she views herself, cause Sawyer is a part of her that she tried to erase. If that makes sense. And possibly the solution for Kate and Sawyer is if they are able to love the other person, they can finally love themselves, cause each of them represent something in the other that they werent able to accept before. Haha, okay, maybe that doesnt make sense, but its the only mildly coherent thought I could get out today, so Im stickin with it. ;)
That makes a lot of sense to a psychologist! :clap: Accepting Sawyer like he is would mean that Kate had the opportunity to cope with that part of herself as well. Sawyer reminds Kate of Wayne she for sure never had friendly feelings for. James is not like Wayne and he is not a bad person as well as Kate is not a bad person. Both did bad things but theat is not what they are. Forgiving each other quite well might be the way to forgive themselves.

Hi Midnight! yes, it was HOT out on the lake, but fun in the water. The kids had a blast!

There are so many pages to catch up on. Lots of real depth of emotion to mull over. And I've come to the conclusion that if Kate doesn't fly into Sawyer's arms as fast as she can, she's out ot her mind!

Yes indeed, even though not much time has passed on the island you would think it has still been more than enough time for Kate to know enough to completely let go & hook up with that man - if this was real life and I was Kate I'd have done so long ago... but then again, I guess if Kate was as impatient as I am for Skate lovin' then Sawyer may not have fallen so in love with her too ;) (if that makes any sense)

There has been a lot of great stuff to read here recently, I love all the latest Skate thoughts, I'm happy when I see lots of pages to read when I check in here :biggrin:
100%
That makes a lot of sense to a psychologist! :clap: Accepting Sawyer like he is would mean that Kate had the opportunity to cope with that part of herself as well. Sawyer reminds Kate of Wayne she for sure never had friendly feelings for. James is not like Wayne and he is not a bad person as well as Kate is not a bad person. Both did bad things but theat is not what they are. Forgiving each other quite well might be the way to forgive themselves.

I agree. Put simply, I think they do both need to realise that it's not that they are 'bad' people, but that it's the stuff they do/have done which is bad - there's a big difference. I think they do need to forgive themselves first before either can help the other with that, but I do think they can help each other by leading each other to that forgiveness too, just by understanding what the other is about and accepting that.
Am tired and can no longer think straight, so I don't think I'm capable of getting anything across very well right now, so yet again, I may not be making sense :tongue_s:

Good night all :drowsy:

You folks have some of the most wonderful insights. . . .

:heart: visiting this site!

The only thing that could make it better is the next "Battlefield Revisited" chapter! (Hint #4815162342) :book:

I wonder if Kate will discover what Sawyer really thought being 'caught in a net' meant initially? Would be interesting to see her reaction if she heard the full story. When Sawyer found out that it did literally mean they were caught in a net, I think their conversation was stopped short 'cos of the bird that flew overhead as far as I can remember - would have been great to hear the rest of that conversation if it had continued... would Kate have realised that Sawyer was happy to hear that caught in a net didn't mean what he had thought?

When Sawyer realized that "caught in a net" wasn't sex, his short response made Kate question if they had been talking about her. And she smiled at the thought of it. I think if she didn't like Sawyer, she wouldn't have been smiling. I wish that scene could have continued! D**n bird!

I wonder too you guys, what might have been revealed there had the stupid bird not shown up at the time. Kate seemed geuinely curious about why Sawyer and Jack would talk about her, even seemed slightly flattered. She might might have pressed him more on it and maybe have seen something in his response that would indicate to her what he was thinking and make the connection between the relief on his face and that. She might have had a clearer picture of his feelings at that point... i'm with you Theodoruh d**m bird :mad:

That makes a lot of sense to a psychologist! :clap: Accepting Sawyer like he is would mean that Kate had the opportunity to cope with that part of herself as well. Sawyer reminds Kate of Wayne she for sure never had friendly feelings for. James is not like Wayne and he is not a bad person as well as Kate is not a bad person. Both did bad things but theat is not what they are. Forgiving each other quite well might be the way to forgive themselves.

That's right Hufflepuff they both have to understand the difference between being bad and doing bad things. I think being able to see the goodness in eachoter alongs them to see the good in themselves as well. There is a level of acceptance. And like Zoriah said earlier he has been there for her quite a bit of late in spite of everything he's feeling in a sesne. The hug was a perfect example of putting aside your own suffering and taking care of someone else. I hope it dosen't go unnoticed. And Honey i did notice that she can't seem to stay away from him even though she was mad.. it's almost like she refused to abandon him either.

Kate has been hurt (from what we know) by every man that's been in her life. Even her "father" Sam, because he said he had to call them. Wayne, I highly suspect, has abused her, even Tom in a way. I think she sees him as having married someone else and that he didn't "take her away" from what her life was.

That's a bullseye right there Lisa. She has been hurt quite a bit by all the men in her life and that would make her very untrusting. Esp with someone like Sawyer whoes propensity for self-destruction and pushing people away emotionally. That's scary if you've got issues yourself, but i think that's part of what draws her to him as well. Cause i think he knows she's like that too. They can cause a great deal of damage to eachother but i think they can also help heal eachother as well.. it might already be happening in a sense.



There are so many pages to catch up on. Lots of real depth of emotion to mull over. And I've come to the conclusion that if Kate doesn't fly into Sawyer's arms as fast as she can, she's out ot her mind!

There are always so many pages even when you are gone for a couple of hours LOL and i totally agree, she's out of her mind if she don't do something about him soon :biggrin:

I am going to be so disapointed if she chooses Jack. It will just seem like such wasted potential between evi and josh. I know the jaters must see something different than what we do, but I just don't get why on earth anyone would think they were a good couple. They are so different, different backgrounds, different moral viewpoints. Kate is a free spirit, I can imagine that if she were is a relationship with jack he would be more controlling, more parental than he is with her now. And that would just make me dislike him even more.
I really can't stand kate's character when she is around him. The idea of a woman grovelling for a man's approval makes me sick, and I think that if she ends up with jack, it will destroy her character further.

My hope is that kate will get over her hero worship for Jack, because to be honest i think that is the only thing that jack has over sawyer in her estimation. Kate knows sawyer biggest secret, like her he killed a man, and he knows that he made a living conning women for their money. There is nothing that is going to be revealed (that we already know of) that could scare her off, therefore the only thing that can improve her opinion of him is if we see a more heroic sawyer in these first 6 episodes.

Jack, on the other hand, has a hell of a long way to fall. The writers have been hinting for ages that there is a darker side to Jack, obviously to do with his tatoos and Phukett. The others seem to know everything about the survivours, do they know these deep dark secrets of Jack's and will they reveal them to her. I guess it could go either way, this could make her feel she has more in common with him, OR hopefully, make her realise that jack isn't perfect and that being with him wont maker her a good person andf she will choose Sawyer .

Well that's enough early morning rambling for now I guess, just thinking out loud really!

October 4 will get here. . .won't it? :down:

Jack, on the other hand, has a hell of a long way to fall. The writers have been hinting for ages that there is a darker side to Jack, obviously to do with his tatoos and Phukett. The others seem to know everything about the survivours, do they know these deep dark secrets of Jack's and will they reveal them to her. I guess it could go either way, this could make her feel she has more in common with him, OR hopefully, make her realise that jack isn't perfect and that being with him wont maker her a good person andf she will choose Sawyer .



you don't suppose a dark side to Jack will make him more appealing to Kate in some kind of bonding way?

October 4 will get here. . .won't it? :down:

Some time - yes.
Although not soon enough IMHO......

Is it just me and my imagination, or is there a great potential for interesting discussions, interactions and conflicts if J/S/K is beeing kept prisoners together by the Others :lol:? And even MORE so if S/K are kept aside from J.......

I can imagine S being there for K, and her going through some hard times. We all know that she always wants to run, and on the island she has continued with that. However, if/when kept prisoner by the Others she probably cannot even get out of the hut/cave or wherever they are kept, suggesting that she has to stay and finally face her deamons. And who is better to be there for her, helping her and listening to her than S? I don't think he likes to be prisoner (understatement of the day :)), but if he is with her I bet he stays "calm" for her, at least if the Others are thretening to do something to her if he doesn't behave..... I just wonder if SHE stays calm in response to threats against him. That would in some way be the ultimate sign of "loyalty" and "love" between them - both value the other person enough not to try to get away.......

I would hope that a darker side of Jack revealed would give Kate a reality check. Perhaps even get her out of her hero worship thing, since a dark hero is not who she idealizes. Although they will have to draw a line. Cause although I dont think that Jack could ever be like Sawyer is, if they make him more like Sawyer, just so Kate will like him more, I will be pissed. I hope exposing a darker side to Jack will help Kate to wake up and smell the coffee that no body is perfect and putting people on a pedestal only lowers her own self-worth.

I am going to be so disapointed if she chooses Jack. It will just seem like such wasted potential between evi and josh. I know the jaters must see something different than what we do, but I just don't get why on earth anyone would think they were a good couple. They are so different, different backgrounds, different moral viewpoints. Kate is a free spirit, I can imagine that if she were is a relationship with jack he would be more controlling, more parental than he is with her now. And that would just make me dislike him even more.
I really can't stand kate's character when she is around him. The idea of a woman grovelling for a man's approval makes me sick, and I think that if she ends up with jack, it will destroy her character further.

Im right there with you raven. I will be really disappointed as well. And whether we want to admit it or not, Kate is a different character when shes around both men. With Jack shes always trying to be on her best behavior and get his approval on things. With Sawyer she is more relaxed, but also at times, forced to address her own personal issues with her own self and Sawyer. I guess the question she needs to ask herself is which relationship she gets the most out of. I dont see her getting much out of a relationship with Jack, and if a relationship with Jack means she has to grovel, cry, grab dolls that mysteriously appear out of nowhere, and miss shots, when we all know that shes more capable and smart than that, then I dont want to see it either.

I can imagine S being there for K, and her going through some hard times. We all know that she always wants to run, and on the island she has continued with that. However, if/when kept prisoner by the Others she probably cannot even get out of the hut/cave or wherever they are kept, suggesting that she has to stay and finally face her deamons. And who is better to be there for her, helping her and listening to her than S? I don't think he likes to be prisoner (understatement of the day ), but if he is with her I bet he stays "calm" for her, at least if the Others are thretening to do something to her if he doesn't behave..... I just wonder if SHE stays calm in response to threats against him. That would in some way be the ultimate sign of "loyalty" and "love" between them - both value the other person enough not to try to get away.......

I agree Kristina. Im hoping that will be Sawyers redeeming quality in captivity. Cause he was there for her in "?". Im hoping they can expand on that. ;)

Jack, on the other hand, has a hell of a long way to fall. The writers have been hinting for ages that there is a darker side to Jack, obviously to do with his tatoos and Phukett. The others seem to know everything about the survivours, do they know these deep dark secrets of Jack's and will they reveal them to her. I guess it could go either way, this could make her feel she has more in common with him, OR hopefully, make her realise that jack isn't perfect and that being with him wont maker her a good person andf she will choose Sawyer .

Well that's enough early morning rambling for now I guess, just thinking out loud really!


If the writers sole purpose in revealing this "darker" side of Jack is to make him more appealing to Kate so she can feel they have more in common with one another, I'll know this show will have truly jumped the shark.

I have no doubt Jack has a ton of repressed rage, and there's a greater than zero chance that in a uninhibited, drunken state of rebellion he got those wicked tatoos we've all been on pins and needles awaiting its intriguing story. Oh, and to put a real rebel spin on it, Jack kicked a three-legged dog in a crying fit of frustration on his way into that seedy tatoo palor. Of course, the only reason he did it was due to being kicked out of an opium den high as a giraffes na-na, because of the inexplicable crying.

:wink1:

Kidding, kidding...kind of.

Im right there with you raven. I will be really disappointed as well. And whether we want to admit it or not, Kate is a different character when shes around both men. With Jack shes always trying to be on her best behavior and get his approval on things. With Sawyer she is more relaxed, but also at times, forced to address her own personal issues with her own self and Sawyer. I guess the question she needs to ask herself is which relationship she gets the most out of. I dont see her getting much out of a relationship with Jack, and if a relationship with Jack means she has to grovel, cry, grab dolls that mysteriously appear out of nowhere, and miss shots, when we all know that shes more capable and smart than that, then I dont want to see it either.

See, this is why I believe she may choose Jack. Like it was mentioned a few posts back, Kate wants to be regarded as good or worthy. A productive, helpful, respected person within the camp. Not disimilar to the men of the camp, Kate wants a certain amount of power...to feel in control. Being at Jack's side provides her that, along with the fact that she is geniunely attracted to the man.

With Sawyer...well, like I said yesterday, it's a gamble. Does she risk not being "in the loop" at all times in being with him. To date, Sawyer's rejected the more desirable status amongst the camp, and despite Kate's attraction or draw to Sawyer and being around him, I don't believe she's in anyway willing to give up her spot on the A-team for him if he's not willing to stop sabataging himself.

Okay my outkast family, don't tell me we're losing a little faith around here...

I just don't believe for one second she could choose Jack. She'd be throwing away happiness with both hands and reaching out for something that could never ever made her happy. Not to mention the fact that we have seen very little evidence that proves anything about how she feels about Jack.

She has never ever expressed any feeling for Jack. She told Sun she didn't get to say goodbye to Sawyer. She admitted to Sawyer back when she thought he was Wayne that she had feelings for Sawyer, she even told Jack "he's driving me nuts" granted it was Wayne personified as Sawyer that I believe she was referring to, but Jack didn't know that.

And I'm not even going to go into what Jack knows about Sawyer loving her...

Don't lose the faith people, Sawyer is the only choice she can make, and I'll believe that until I have definitive proof otherwise, and if by some God-awful chance she chooses Jack, that doesn't mean it'll stay that way, and it could be that the audience will know her choice but neither of the characters will.

Just my thoughts...

Oh before I forget...Chapter 21 is up at the UK board...

www.kateandsawyer.co.uk (http://www.kateandsawyer.co.uk)

Hope you enjoy it...

Huggs,
Lisa ;)

i think that's the main difference with the 2 of them in a nutshell. Kate badly wants the acceptance. She wants to be seen as good and part of the group. She wants deperately to be considered a good person. To be a better person. And she wanted that for Sawyer too, for his sake as well as to justify her feelings for him in a sense by having him be accepted like her. And she was terribly hurt that he wouldn't allow that to happen.

Sawyer rejects that cause he's stuck in the idea that he can't change, that he is what he is. He's scared of being accepted and loved, even though deep down he does want it. He needs to be the 'bad' guy cause that's all he knows and thinks of himself as. So he makes himself that again, essentially telling everyone 'see i'm jerk, and i don't give a rat's patootie about any of you' . That's familar and comfortable for him, unlike the confusion he felt at being 'accepted' so to speak.

i have a headache, i hope that made sense...:redface:

What you're saying makes perfect sense. :biggrin: It's crazy in here, it's like i'm reading my own thoughts! The weird thing is that while i am normally articulate i haven't been able to write anything so clearly lately. But i think there are a lot of people in here who are good at putting into words the Skate dynamic that they've seen on the show.

Jack, on the other hand, has a hell of a long way to fall. The writers have been hinting for ages that there is a darker side to Jack, obviously to do with his tatoos and Phukett. The others seem to know everything about the survivours, do they know these deep dark secrets of Jack's and will they reveal them to her. I guess it could go either way, this could make her feel she has more in common with him, OR hopefully, make her realise that jack isn't perfect and that being with him wont maker her a good person andf she will choose Sawyer .

All of what you said makes perfect sense! i, too, hate Jack the more they try to make him look perfect. i don't want to dislike him, but i do now, a lot. :undecide: i can't seem to stop, either, it's like he's done too much to be forgiven for.

Okay my outkast family, don't tell me we're losing a little faith around here...

I just don't believe for one second she could choose Jack. She'd be throwing away happiness with both hands and reaching out for something that could never ever made her happy. Not to mention the fact that we have seen very little evidence that proves anything about how she feels about Jack.

Well, we know that Kate hasn't always made wise decisions in her life (i.e blowing up Wayne) and we can't pretend that Jack isn't a reality for Kate. So, I don't believe it's abpit any of us losing faith, it's a matter of looking the situation from all possibilities, and that includes Kate choosing Jack.

She has never ever expressed any feeling for Jack. She told Sun she didn't get to say goodbye to Sawyer. She admitted to Sawyer back when she thought he was Wayne that she had feelings for Sawyer, she even told Jack "he's driving me nuts" granted it was Wayne personified as Sawyer that I believe she was referring to, but Jack didn't know that.

Did she say "he's dring me nuts" or "the island. it's driving me nuts."...? In any event, whether we as Skater get how Kate's gone about showing her interest in Jack, she is attracted to him. I believe her attractiont to Jack is understandable. He's generally a good guy despite his hang-ups. Based on surface appearances, what woman wouldn't be?

And I'm not even going to go into what Jack knows about Sawyer loving her...

Don't lose the faith people, Sawyer is the only choice she can make, and I'll believe that until I have definitive proof otherwise, and if by some God-awful chance she chooses Jack, that doesn't mean it'll stay that way, and it could be that the audience will know her choice but neither of the characters will.

Just my thoughts...


Huggs,
Lisa ;)

Nope, it doesn't. But we'll have to see wait and see what happens.

If the writers sole purpose in revealing this "darker" side of Jack is to make him more appealing to Kate so she can feel they have more in common with one another, I'll know this show will have truly jumped the shark.

TOTALLY agree, Darbi. That would be so unbelievably cheap, it's sickening to even think about...and we have to hope that the writers are more competant than that!!

Far as I've been able to tell from their interactions in the first 2 seasons, Kate only emulates Jack because of his "goodness". He's the proverbial "light" in comparison to the "dark" guys from her past, as well as Sawyer. Now, I don't doubt for a second that Jack is not all he's cracked up to be (perfection-wise), but Kate put him on that pedestal (and occasionally grovels at the base of it - - :sick:) because she views Jack as this good, perfect, iconic man, the kind of man that she wants desperately to be worthy of.

So...if that's the reason for her "attraction" to him...then to knock him off that pedestel, to make him "darker"...well then, wouldn't that kill her attraction? It would mean a reality-check...hey, guess what Kate? Jack ain't all that!!...and she'd be forced to recognize and accept that he's not this perfect, grovel-worthy figure. And then where does that leave her/them? Take that away, and where's the chemistry? :shrug:

Oh, right...the chemistry is with SAWYER... :biggrin:

Ugh, Jack is not attractive to me at all anymore, mostly for surface reasons. ;) i don't mind seeing the "dark" side of Jack, but yeah, not if it's so Kate will go running to him. That would be totally out of character and lame. In other words, ITA (that acronym's gonna take some getting used to).

"I have no doubt Jack has a ton of repressed rage, and there's a greater than zero chance that in a uninhibited, drunken state of rebellion he got those wicked tatoos we've all been on pins and needles awaiting its intriguing story. Oh, and to put a real rebel spin on it, Jack kicked a three-legged dog in a crying fit of frustration on his way into that seedy tatoo palor. Of course, the only reason he did it was due to being kicked out of an opium den high as a giraffes na-na, because of the inexplicable crying."

Darbi, you made me laugh so hard I almost choked on my pizza, lol! Funny how that is what I picture Jack doing in Phukett as well. He just seems to be too pathetic to do anything actually bad or cool!

I really hope that the writers arn't stupid enough to make a big deal of this darker side of jack, just to have kate think, "well, now I can relate to him I don't need sawyer anymore" and choose Jack, because I just might have to fly to hawai and kick some serious a$$ (and maybe kidnap Josh in the process just because I'd be so truamatised and need a few days and nights with him to get over it.

I think that finding out Jack isn't this perfect guy worthy of her admitration will be a wake up call for kate, and force he to re-assess her feelings. I honestly don't think that the two character share anything more than this peculiar master/follower routine, take away the hero worship on Kate's part and what else is she left with compared to sawyer, of whom she gets along with very well.

I was thinjking earlier of something I read in a fanfic, and I can't for the life of me remeber which one or I'd qoute it, but it had Jack witnessing kate and sawyer interacting, I think it was when she was cutting his hair, and Jack was thinking about how this was a secret kate he would never get to see, because around sawyer she is compleatey different from anybody else. I just thought it captured it perfectly, because I truly believe she is only able to be herself infront of sawyer. AShe's be an idiot to give that up!

See, this is why I believe she may choose Jack. Like it was mentioned a few posts back, Kate wants to be regarded as good or worthy. A productive, helpful, respected person within the camp. Not disimilar to the men of the camp, Kate wants a certain amount of power...to feel in control. Being at Jack's side provides her that, along with the fact that she is geniunely attracted to the man.

With Sawyer...well, like I said yesterday, it's a gamble. Does she risk not being "in the loop" at all times in being with him. To date, Sawyer's rejected the more desirable status amongst the camp, and despite Kate's attraction or draw to Sawyer and being around him, I don't believe she's in anyway willing to give up her spot on the A-team for him if he's not willing to stop sabataging himself.
Thank you very much for that great analysis! You nailed it. All this speculating we have/had going on back "home" at Lost-forum, but nobody every came up with anything even slightly like this. It all comes down to this, doesn' it?

That was all I wanted to say. I hope you don't mind me randomly popping in here.

Thank you very much for that great analysis! You nailed it. All this speculating we have/had going on back "home" at Lost-forum, but nobody every came up with anything even slightly like this. It all comes down to this, doesn' it?

That was all I wanted to say. I hope you don't mind me randomly popping in here.

You're quite welcome. :) And feel free to pop in as often as you'd like. A'ight.

ETA:

I was thinjking earlier of something I read in a fanfic, and I can't for the life of me remeber which one or I'd qoute it, but it had Jack witnessing kate and sawyer interacting, I think it was when she was cutting his hair, and Jack was thinking about how this was a secret kate he would never get to see, because around sawyer she is compleatey different from anybody else. I just thought it captured it perfectly, because I truly believe she is only able to be herself infront of sawyer. AShe's be an idiot to give that up!

Funny, I just read a fic the other day based on Jack's POV of Sawyer and Kate that was quite similar. Can't recall the name of the fic either, but basically, while watching Sawyer, Kate and Walt in a race, he admits (grudingly) how good the two are for each other. When they're good...both are in great moods. Sawyer's certainly more pleasant to be around. Kate's more extroverted and giddy. But, when they're at odds, the whole camp suffers. Sawyer snaps at anyone who makes the mistake of crossing his path. Kate's extremely withdrawn and pensive, spending hours in the jungle alone much to Jack's chargin.

ETA: (again)

May Day, I went back and read what I said and I need to add another thought.

This is just a speculation, but I can't help but think of Sam, Kate's not real dad. Despite his obvious love for Kate, it didn't seem like he really fought to get her out of the situation she was in with Wayne and Diane. Not to say he made no effort, he told Kate as much, but I have to wonder if his knowing that Kate really wasn't his...if he chose his career, maybe even protecting his own pride in people finding out that Kate really wasn't his in some messy custody battle.

In some weird transference, Kate's faced with a similar situation. Duty over love. I realize the whole "Wayne" issue, turing out like Diane may still be a factor...but the situation is similar...sort of. I don't know...just speculating like I said. Ignor me. ;)

If the writers sole purpose in revealing this "darker" side of Jack is to make him more appealing to Kate so she can feel they have more in common with one another, I'll know this show will have truly jumped the shark.


Absolutely Darbi. I can't see Kate being the reason to show Jack's darker side - it just wouldn't make sense if the same writers are writing the show's scripts, it would be too simple and not a good enough reason either - if it happens and they are the same PTB, then they'll have lost the plot altogether! Trying to show a side of Jack to make him more appealing and introducing an element of Sawyer's character is impossible too I think - he'll just never be Sawyer, so if it was me in control of the scriptwriting I just wouldn't go there - it would never work - even though we continue to find out more about the characters we still know too much about them already for certain things to change our opinions of them entirely.
100%
In addition, I think Kate seeing a darker side to Jack may make her come back to reality & realising that he isn't quite worthy of being put up on that pedestal, she'll have to reassess her thinking of him as having that hero status. What will be perfect then for her, is to have Sawyer right there beside her & her seeing that she's been missing out on potential opportunities with the man who really loves her & would do anything for her too & whom she loves spending time with on top of that....

Okay my outkast family, don't tell me we're losing a little faith around here...

I just don't believe for one second she could choose Jack. She'd be throwing away happiness with both hands and reaching out for something that could never ever made her happy. Not to mention the fact that we have seen very little evidence that proves anything about how she feels about Jack.

She has never ever expressed any feeling for Jack. She told Sun she didn't get to say goodbye to Sawyer. She admitted to Sawyer back when she thought he was Wayne that she had feelings for Sawyer, she even told Jack "he's driving me nuts" granted it was Wayne personified as Sawyer that I believe she was referring to, but Jack didn't know that.

And I'm not even going to go into what Jack knows about Sawyer loving her...

Don't lose the faith people, Sawyer is the only choice she can make, and I'll believe that until I have definitive proof otherwise, and if by some God-awful chance she chooses Jack, that doesn't mean it'll stay that way, and it could be that the audience will know her choice but neither of the characters will.

Just my thoughts...

Oh before I forget...Chapter 21 is up at the UK board...

www.kateandsawyer.co.uk (http://www.kateandsawyer.co.uk)

Hope you enjoy it...

Huggs,
Lisa ;)

Lisa, you always cheer me up - I know there could be the possibility of Jate & we may have to face it, but I hate thinking about it even if it could happen - I'll be devastated if Skate doesn't happen!

Off now to read the updates to your fic :biggrin:

I just hope that whatever this darkened path that's to be revealed about Jack it's not over-the-top, and has a very tight correlation to the overall storyline.

Personally, I could care less about Jack's tatoos. I mean, it's not like they're a novelty...all the cool kids are doing it. But, if the story surrounding when he received them has a reaching connection with the overall plot...fine. Just as long as his Christian Shepherd is a part of the backstory. He's about the only thing that makes watching Jack's fb's tolerable.





Gah, I've really got to get my Jack dislike in check. The new season is only but two months away.

Gah, I've really got to get my Jack dislike in check. The new season is only but two months away.

Difficult to do I know. I think we all understand where you're coming from with that! The more I see of him, the more I seem to dislike him - just can't help it somehow :ohwell:

... and the more I see of Sawyer, the more I luv him too :crush:

I just hope that whatever this darkened path that's to be revealed about Jack it's not over-the-top, and has a very tight correlation to the overall storyline.

Personally, I could care less about Jack's tatoos. I mean, it's not like they're a novelty...all the cool kids are doing it. But, if the story surrounding when he received them has a reaching connection with the overall plot...fine. Just as long as his Christian Shepherd is a part of the backstory. He's about the only thing that makes watching Jack's fb's tolerable.

:clapping: :clapping: Word to that. I mean, is it necessary to have a whole flashback episode dedicated to exploring the story behind some tattoos:eek2: That is so not interesting to me, maybe its because Jack is not my cup of tea. I do agree that if they want to show this dark side of Jack:rolleyes: make it relavent to the island story. Perhaps this dark side of Jack is to show once again that the difference between him and Sawyer ain't that big.

:clapping: :clapping: Word to that. I mean, is it necessary to have a whole flashback episode dedicated to exploring the story behind some tattoos:eek2: That is so not interesting to me, maybe its because Jack is not my cup of tea. I do agree that if they want to show this dark side of Jack:rolleyes: make it relavent to the island story. Perhaps this dark side of Jack is to show once again that the difference between him and Sawyer ain't that big.

Well, the subject has come up twice, and twice Jack's silently, or flat out denied the one who inquired about the mysterious workings of his oh-so-cool tats. Based on that...how could we possibly go another season not knowing the enthralling story behind them?


sarcasm

Did she say "he's dring me nuts" or "the island. it's driving me nuts."...? In any event, whether we as Skater get how Kate's gone about showing her interest in Jack, she is attracted to him. I believe her attractiont to Jack is understandable. He's generally a good guy despite his hang-ups. Based on surface appearances, what woman wouldn't be?

Darbi, I really do love the way you think, babe! I can't argue with that either, when I first saw the show, I wasn't really paying attention to it and I called my mom and asked her, "Okay, what the hell is a polar bear doin' on the that island, and who is this goober who shot it?" :harhar1: I immediately thought, "no, no, you can't like the bad one, you just cant." But that was undeniable.

But I agree as character's go, Jack is a good guy and that is part of his appeal. But I really, really do believe it's gonna be Sawyer and Kate. I think it just can't go anywhere else. Okay maybe I'm overly optomistic, but that's what I'm going to keep believing...

That was all I wanted to say. I hope you don't mind me randomly popping in here.

Nice to have you May Day, come back anytime, we'd love to have you.

:clapping: :clapping: Word to that. I mean, is it necessary to have a whole flashback episode dedicated to exploring the story behind some tattoos:eek2: That is so not interesting to me, maybe its because Jack is not my cup of tea. I do agree that if they want to show this dark side of Jack:rolleyes: make it relavent to the island story. Perhaps this dark side of Jack is to show once again that the difference between him and Sawyer ain't that big.

It's interesting that you say that Luane, Sawyer was the first to point that out, even as much as Kate didn't want to hear it. I think that's very interesting.

I'm interesting to see how this "dark side" of Jack is going to play out. I certainly don't want to see him turn into a mirror image of Sawyer. That would be silly. One of the best things about Jack and Sawyer is how they are the best and worst of each other and how their characters are almost like book ends in a kind of Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde way. I wouldn't want to see them lose that. I would think that would be just silly.

I've found some more script stuff and I'll put that up before the night's out and I'm workin on another vid.

See ya'll a little later.

Huggs,
Lisa ;)

Darbi, I really do love the way you think, babe! I can't argue with that either, when I first saw the show, I wasn't really paying attention to it and I called my mom and asked her, "Okay, what the hell is a polar bear doin' on the that island, and who is this goober who shot it?" :harhar1: I immediately thought, "no, no, you can't like the bad one, you just cant." But that was undeniable.

But I agree as character's go, Jack is a good guy and that is part of his appeal. But I really, really do believe it's gonna be Sawyer and Kate. I think it just can't go anywhere else. Okay maybe I'm overly optomistic, but that's what I'm going to keep believing...



;)

You called your mom? I called my brother and asked the exact same thing. All he could say was..."Dude. This show is tripped out." :laughing:

My reaction to Sawyer was different than yours, though. I liked the donkey from the words, "Bring it!" and wasn't in the least bit surprised he had someone how managed to get his hands on a gun in such short order. :biggrin:

If you're gonna be bad boy...go head and let it do what it do, baby! ;)

I've read a few posts here about what effect Jack's "dark" side might have. If Jack having a dark side makes him oh-so attractive to Kate... I'll go crazy... but that aside... I think the big deal w/Jack and Sawyer is what they represent for Kate. I think Kate wants to be "good," and believes Jack will give her the redemption she's looking for. I think her heart wants Sawyer, but her mind is like... "uh... no way..."

I think Jack's "dark" side (which I think is a joke...but maybe because I don't like Jack at all) might give her a chance to see that redemption is not going to come from someone else... that it needs to come from within... and with that I think she might just leave good old Jacko behind... permanently... and realize that she could have something w/our dear Sawyer... however, I do think their relationship will be anything but smooth sailing...

But I don't care... as long as everything ends up Skate!! !!

Awfully quiet this evening. So, in order to get things rocking. A question.

If young James parents hadn't died so horrificly (sp?), what type of person do you think James would have grown up to be? What type of person would Kate have turned out to be if she'd been raised away from Wayne and Diane?

WONDERFUL chapter, Lisa! :hug:

Chapter 22, please! :book:

(Aw, c'mon! You KNEW I was gonna say that! :wink1:)

Difficult to do I know. I think we all understand where you're coming from with that! The more I see of him, the more I seem to dislike him - just can't help it somehow :ohwell:

... and the more I see of Sawyer, the more I luv him too :crush:

i'll have to ditto that because ITA. But it's soooo hard! :frown:

;)

I'm interesting to see how this "dark side" of Jack is going to play out. I certainly don't want to see him turn into a mirror image of Sawyer. That would be silly. One of the best things about Jack and Sawyer is how they are the best and worst of each other and how their characters are almost like book ends in a kind of Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde way. I wouldn't want to see them lose that. I would think that would be just silly.

Hey, maybe the Others want Jack and Sawyer because they're really two halves of the same person! Maybe they're going to reunite their bodies into one and we'll have Jawyer or Sack instead!!! :eek2:

Sorry, i couldn't resist because i've overheard several clone theories. Does anyone know if Bad Twin is a good read? Last time i checked the library didn't have it, but of course that's not saying much.


If young James parents hadn't died so horrificly (sp?), what type of person do you think James would have grown up to be? What type of person would Kate have turned out to be if she'd been raised away from Wayne and Diane?


Ooo, good one! If James' parents were still alive then he would be a lot more adjusted as a person! He wouldn't be a loner, he might actually be a popular ladies man and one of the guys. He wouldn't feel alienated or sad or driven to revenge. He might have still had to become a con man but i doubt that he would feel that he is beyond redemption in the same way.

Kate would have married her best friend and never had to run away in the first place, so she would never have had the chance to meet Jack or James because she wouldn't have been in Australia. They would not be the same people, that's for sure!
100%
Just realized that i was writing as if i had all the answers and my word on the subject is law. Didn't mean to come off so bossy... kind of like Jack instead of James! :eek2: So i guess i'll switch gears and just tell myself "shut up, sweet lips."

Okay. :lipsseal:

I'm gonna stay out of the Jack/dark side stuff cause i really don't feel like talkling about Jack here LOL i'lll save that for JuSt :biggrin:

I wasn't really paying attention to it and I called my mom and asked her, "Okay, what the hell is a polar bear doin' on the that island, and who is this goober who shot it?" :harhar1: I immediately thought, "no, no, you can't like the bad one, you just cant." But that was undeniable.


:rotflmao2: that was too damn funny LOL exactly what i was thinking only adding 'hot' in front of goober LOL can't believe you called your mom :biggrin:
as for this
Originally Posted by Darbi
If young James parents hadn't died so horrificly (sp?), what type of person do you think James would have grown up to be? What type of person would Kate have turned out to be if she'd been raised away from Wayne and Diane?



I definatly think they would be different in many ways. See i've always seen Saweyr as very smart and articulate and thought if his life hadn't gone astray like it had he could've been very successful in something put his natural talents to work. He has that natural charm, an inate ability to read people very well, and a line of bull a mile long, as my dad says 'he could sell air conditioners to Eskimos" :biggrin: But i don't think he'd be the Sawyer we all know and and love cause his past does define him very well. As sad as it is.

As for Kate i think she'd had settled down to probably a relativly normal life, depending on her upbringing. probably would've marreid someone like Tom or some local guy. She's very smart and could've had a career too if she wanted, the sky would be the limit i think there. But i believe she'd always have that wild streak, she wouldn't be Kate if she didn't.

Anyways just my take.. hope it made sense been a long day hehehe

WONDERFUL chapter, Lisa! :hug:

Chapter 22, please! :book:

(Aw, c'mon! You KNEW I was gonna say that! :wink1:)

Don't you worry hon, it's coming...I promise!!

Okay outkasters, here's a new video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiiJJ4aEh5c

hope ya'll like it...

Huggs,
Lisa ;)

Thank you, Lisa! :hug:

"Battlefield Revisited" really is one of the best fan-fics I've ever read. And it makes the case for Skate very, very well!

Awfully quiet this evening. So, in order to get things rocking. A question.

If young James parents hadn't died so horrificly (sp?), what type of person do you think James would have grown up to be? What type of person would Kate have turned out to be if she'd been raised away from Wayne and Diane?

Oooh good question! Sawyer is obviously very smart, I'm guessing that before his parent's died he was probablly top of his class. I think he really could have been sucessful in anything he wanted to be. I'm sure he would still have his charm like we see him now, only without the bitterness behind it. I can see him at college, smoking pot and chasing girls, being one of the lads, getting a good career, although I'm not sure what kind. probablly run his own business or something. But would this make him happy?

I'm not sure with kate. Like the marshall said she was always top of her class, I think she would have also gone to college and probablly got married to Tom or someone similar, and maybe have a kid or two, whiklst still having some form of career.

But the question I keep asking myself is, would this make them happy? Or would they ultimately be dissatisfied with their life, like they are now. Both are free spirits and have wild rebelious streaks, and I think even if they didn't have so much trauma in their pasts, this would still exist. I can see them doing the norlam life thing for a while, then doing something totally wild. I do find it hard to imagine them being any different to how they are now though!

I'm not sure why, but I got the impression that young James may have been a bit shy as a kid, but I can still see him being social, and ever the incurable flirt we know him as now, too.

He's smart, so I can see him as a business owner of some sort. Being from the South, I would imagine he'd marry, have a few babies, be the ever protective southern gentlemen over his family and what's his as he shows signs of still. He'd still be a bit of a rebel...but ultimately harmless. Just someone who likes to give in to that wild streak coursing through his veings every now and again.

Kate: I can see being quite similar. A home, family...a career that doesn't box her in...allowing her to indulge her free spirit without inhibitions. What type of guy she'd be married to...not sure. Maybe a Tom type...or a blend of someone like Sawyer. Or she may have remained single. I just think she and James, outside of the shadows and pain that plague their existences now...wouldn't be much different.

If young James parents hadn't died so horrificly (sp?), what type of person do you think James would have grown up to be? What type of person would Kate have turned out to be if she'd been raised away from Wayne and Diane?

Darbi, Im inclined to agree with you and Raven. I dont think Sawyer and Kate would be too different as far as their inner personalities go. I think Sawyer would still enjoy antagonising and pushing people to their limits. Charming the ladies and drawn to want to see the world from the outside looking in. And I think Kate would still be the good girl inside who seeks the thrill of being bad every once in awhile, hypocrasy and all.

The difference is the magnitude and how deeply they have been scarred. I dont think that if Sawyer and Kate had relatively normal upbringings it would equal happiness. I mean if you look at Sawyer/James, his mom was having an affair, before his dad shot her and himself. There had to be some reasoning for that. Something wasnt working in their marriage for her to make the decision to cheat on him. And taking away the murder/suicide wouldnt neccessarily take away that negative atmosphere for James. It would just be more repressed and hidden, but he would still know it was there. And instead of one huge blow, it could be many small blows.

And as far as Kate being raised by someone else, that still doesnt take away the truth that Wayne is her real father. Shes still got the issue of not knowing her true father, idealizing or hating a man she doesnt know, its just spun around so that shes looking at it from the other side.

I guess the point Im getting at is that, they each wouldnt be as traumatized, but they would still be the same people underneath it all. Just maybe not as hard a shell. And they wouldnt have to feel like keeping their guards up all the time. Sawyer and Kate wouldnt be as fearful of committments, and people and living life. So they could each experience more in life, but strip back those walls and youll find just James standing behind it, and just Kate standing behind hers. Open and vulnerable like many others who have dealt with infidelity and second marriages in the family.

Perhaps take those tragedies away and you just have Josh and Evi. Since they both have been compared to their characters, but without the trauma. ;)

Nicely put, girlspy! :grin:

That James' parents must've had a bumpy marriage is a theory I've subscribed to for some time now. SOMETHING wasn't right with it, or Mom would've never been drawn to Mr. Sawyer, no matter how charming he was. I'm wondering--is James NOT the biological child of his "daddy"? Did "daddy" marry mom cuz she got preggers by some other man? (Shades of the Sam/Diane/Wayne story! :eek:) Heck, in my wilder imaginings, I see Mommy Ford having gotten preggers by this California up-and-coming surgeon visiting Tennessee for a medical conference. Back home in L.A., he already had a wife and toddler son named. . .Jack.

TOLD you it was a wild imagining! :laughing:

Anyway, that'd be another common background point for James & Kate! :thumbsup:

Of course, Mr. Sawyer did come along. Of course, Diane did marry the abusive Wayne and move Kate to Iowa. So the course of "fate" was pretty well set. Still, it's an interesting "what if" question. And the best thing about it is: I think James & Kate would've been a match for each other, any road! :love:

Nicely put, girlspy! :grin:

That James' parents must've had a bumpy marriage is a theory I've subscribed to for some time now. SOMETHING wasn't right with it, or Mom would've never been drawn to Mr. Sawyer, no matter how charming he was. I'm wondering--is James NOT the biological child of his "daddy"? Did "daddy" marry mom cuz she got preggers by some other man? (Shades of the Sam/Diane/Wayne story! :eek:) Heck, in my wilder imaginings, I see Mommy Ford having gotten preggers by this California up-and-coming surgeon visiting Tennessee for a medical conference. Back home in L.A., he already had a wife and toddler son named. . .Jack.

TOLD you it was a wild imagining! :laughing:

Anyway, that'd be another common background point for James & Kate! :thumbsup:

Of course, Mr. Sawyer did come along. Of course, Diane did marry the abusive Wayne and move Kate to Iowa. So the course of "fate" was pretty well set. Still, it's an interesting "what if" question. And the best thing about it is: I think James & Kate would've been a match for each other, any road! :love:

It may be wild imagining, but that would be quite the interesting storyline.

I really hope we get a glimpse of James life prior to his parents death. Find out if from his eight year old perspective whether he noticed anything out of order between his parents. If he knew or at least suspected his mother's infidelity. Maybe his dad was a "Jack" type, relatively good guy just trying to take care of his family, and that's something Sawyer "rebels" or won't allow himself to be, subconsciously at least.

It may be wild imagining, but that would be quite the interesting storyline.

I really hope we get a glimpse of James life prior to his parents death. Find out if from his eight year old perspective whether he noticed anything out of order between his parents. If he knew or at least suspected his mother's infidelity. Maybe his dad was a "Jack" type, relatively good guy just trying to take care of his family, and that's something Sawyer "rebels" or won't allow himself to be, subconsciously at least.

Darbi: The interesting thing is that Sawyer blames the original Sawyer for what happened to his parents. The original Sawyer never even knew he hurt a child so badly. His parents however did hurt him and yet he doesn't really put them blame on them or appear to hold them responsible in any way. He looks at the situation as something that was done to all three of them. His mother cheated and his father committed murder and sucide.

In many ways he still looks at the incident that so changed his life from a child's prespective. As an adult, he should be able to see that while the original Sawyer is partly responsibe, the blame (as it impacted him as their child) lies with his mother and father. I wonder if he will ever recognize this?

Maybe the original Mr. Sawyer didn't KNOW what he'd done to a little boy, but his con job on his folks DID drive Daddy Ford to murder/suicide. However bad home life may have been at the Ford residence, I doubt Daddy was going to be driven to THOSE lengths--until the con became the straw that broke the camel's back. (Not unlike Kate finding out WAYNE was her biological father became HER breaking point.)

So in a real sense, Mr. Sawyer IS the person to be hated and blamed for the most traumatic night of James' life. . .and much of his life thereafter.

Man, if James and Kate share their life stories during their captivity, their relationship is gonna progress by leaps and bounds!

Darbi: The interesting thing is that Sawyer blames the original Sawyer for what happened to his parents. The original Sawyer never even knew he hurt a child so badly. His parents however did hurt him and yet he doesn't really put them blame on them or appear to hold them responsible in any way. He looks at the situation as something that was done to all three of them. His mother cheated and his father committed murder and sucide.

In many ways he still looks at the incident that so changed his life from a child's prespective. As an adult, he should be able to see that while the original Sawyer is partly responsibe, the blame (as it impacted him as their child) lies with his mother and father. I wonder if he will ever recognize this?

I certainly hope so. Talk about a major emotional breakthrough or breakdown. To maintain that anger and drive for revenge on the original Sawyer for so long, there has to be some serious repressed memories. Blaming the original Sawyer for everything is a lot easier, so to speak, then accepting that the Ford household had some foundation issues. With the jolting, life-altering memory of your mothers screams and the gun shot that ended your fathers life...coming to terms with his parents part in what happened is a lot more difficult to deal with.

That James' parents must've had a bumpy marriage is a theory I've subscribed to for some time now. SOMETHING wasn't right with it, or Mom would've never been drawn to Mr. Sawyer, no matter how charming he was. I'm wondering--is James NOT the biological child of his "daddy"? Did "daddy" marry mom cuz she got preggers by some other man? (Shades of the Sam/Diane/Wayne story! :eek:) Heck, in my wilder imaginings, I see Mommy Ford having gotten preggers by this California up-and-coming surgeon visiting Tennessee for a medical conference. Back home in L.A., he already had a wife and toddler son named. . .Jack.

TOLD you it was a wild imagining! :laughing:

Well to tell the truth i think that with some women it doesn't take much to get them to shack up with a guy if their husband is a workahoic, goes out to the bar every night, and isn't involved in the life of their child, not to mention the fact that he might be abusing you! My first thought was that a bumpy marriage might not have been a prerequesite, but we all know that it was. Mommy was definitely afraid of Daddy. James said that his father had never had the chance to beat him (in Exodus Part II) but that doesn't mean he wasn't beating James' mother and was escalating in that direction. James is clearly terrified of his father right before the suicide.

And that wild theory makes sense in a twisted Lost way. :biggrin:

It may be wild imagining, but that would be quite the interesting storyline.

I really hope we get a glimpse of James life prior to his parents death. Find out if from his eight year old perspective whether he noticed anything out of order between his parents. If he knew or at least suspected his mother's infidelity. Maybe his dad was a "Jack" type, relatively good guy just trying to take care of his family, and that's something Sawyer "rebels" or won't allow himself to be, subconsciously at least.

i have wanted to see more of kid-James, too, both before and after his parents' deaths. i had never thought of the possibility of Daddy being a Jack type: i always assumed that he was a deadbeat drunk, rather like James. ;)

And now for a bit of good news: i'm watching LTDA right now for the first time in ages and am at the part where Jack grabs Mike and shoves him against a tree and yells at him. Kate and Sawyer have just gone commando (very cool) and she is clearly pissed when Jack tells them to stop instead of chasing the Other. And then Jack drops the bombshell: he "knew" that Michael was lying and didn't tell her. Which makes me think (drumroll, please): Kate may have already made her choice! She looks hurt that Jack didn't trust her and horrified about what Michael has done and i think that this may be the straw that breaks the camel's back! i just feel bad for Sawyer (who actually forged a bit of a friendship with Mike at the beginning of s2) and really bad for Hurley, but for Skaters i actually think that there's more going on than originally thought and it was staring us in the face. :eek2:

Input anyone?

I certainly hope so. Talk about a major emotional breakthrough or breakdown. To maintain that anger and drive for revenge on the original Sawyer for so long, there has to be some serious repressed memories. Blaming the original Sawyer for everything is a lot easier, so to speak, then accepting that the Ford household had some foundation issues. With the jolting, life-altering memory of your mothers screams and the gun shot that ended your fathers life...coming to terms with his parents part in what happened is a lot more difficult to deal with.

He has directed his anger outward at the original Sawyer and inward at himself. He is so hurt by what happend to his parents he can't see the part they played in that tragedy.

Both his parents were self destructive and Sawyer has a lot of them in him. Perhaps the reason he is unable to recognize that they were responsible for the mess they made of their lives is he is on the same path. One thing is for sure, the lesson he took away from all of that is how dangerous love can be. He has made damn sure he never cared about anyone enough to be hurt by them.

He has directed his anger outward at the original Sawyer and inward at himself. He is so hurt by what happend to his parents he can't see the part they played in that tragedy.

Both his parents were self destructive and Sawyer has a lot of them in him. Perhaps the reason he is unable to recognize that they were responsible for the mess they made of their lives is he is on the same path. One thing is for sure, the lesson he took away from all of that is how dangerous love can be. He has made sure he never care about anyone enough to be hurt by them.

Or get to the point where he would take the same drastic measures his father did.

Daddy Ford could have been an abusive man, or he could have been a good man who was so deeply in love he lost all rationale when he discovered his wife's betrayal along with being wiped out financially. At this point, it's all speculation. However, I can't help but think despite James wanting to exact revenge on the original Sawyer, he also chose to don Sawyer's persona because he didn't want to become a victim, gullible to the con like his father did.

Muchacha, I'd love to respond to the latter part of your post, but I'm not sure I'm following your thought. Care to elaborate?

Sorry, i'm tired, let's see if i can break it down a little.

At the end of last season a lot of people were in angst because they want to know what happens to Desmond, Locke, and Eko. Well we all know now that Desmond will be a regular next season, right? i always thought this was obvious because Charlie non chalantly said "What, they aren't back already?" when he returns to the beach.

Now, back to the Skate aspects: Kate makes her choice at the beginning of next season. After rewatching LTDA i now think that we won't have to wait to see the catalyst for Kate's decision, i think we already have. i think that this argument about what Michael did has proven to Kate that Jack doesn't trust her and never will. He's still trying to control her. i think that this is what we've been waiting for and that in aToTC Kate's finally going to tell Jack off. That's my theory, anyway.

Hope that makes more sense, i was super excited and trying to type everything out before i forgot it last post. :biggrin:

Yes, so much is made of those exchanged looks between Jack and Kate on the dock, that many people forget the earlier looks/expressions exchanged over the finale and the few eps before. There are several times where we see Kate's frustration and annoyance and (dare I say it) realisation that Jack is being less than perfect, displayed on her face quite plainly. The whole sending Kate with Sawyer to find out where the guns were, and LTDA when they find out Jack knew of Mike's treachery. I even believe there was an element of that in parts of SOS, especially after Jack was yelling uselessly for the Others to come, and the fire scene afterwards when she finally attempted to patch things up with her 'I'm sorry about the kiss.'

I do think she has already begun processing the fact that Jack is just as flawed as Sawyer or she is. Hopefully it will work in Skate's favour in the long run.

crap lost my post :mad:
great discussion when i get back, i love this stuff.. i'll jump right in..

I have definatly always thought that had to be a troubled marriage, cause i don't believe someone, no matter how charming can insinuate themselves into a stable one. But it much easier for the young James to blame a conplete stranger rather than the people that actually hurt, i.e. mom and dad. Esp dad. The event was so traumatic and sudden in his mind that it had to be cause by someone else, it's simply too painful to believe that someone you loved could hurt you that badly. So he focuses on this conman rather than come to grips with the fact that the monster, so to speak, was iin his own house(someone gave me that term, damned if i can remember who it was)

You have to remember too that this was his first example of love and relationships. A wife who disloyal and dishonest with her husband. And husband reacting swiftly to a situation without thinking out the consquences. What's interesting is that this is reflected in the women he conned who he saw as manipulative and disloyal, perfectly willing to do just about anything behind their husbands backs. It definatly colors your ideas about love and relationships.. and about women in general. He dosent' trust them at all. Kate he trusts about as much as he trusts anyone and that's probably not alot. But more than most.

As far LTDA i did notice that Muchacha she definatly seemed angry there..but she was still looking at him for reassurance at the end so i dunno, that's Kate for ya i guess LOL

Well, yes, Kate's last look might be construed as one final plea for Jack to prove himself and get them out of the situation, but i am probably one of the few who actually thinks that Sawyer will be more likely to get them out of it than Jack, especially if...
...it turns out that Jack has a new girlfriend and doesn't want to leave after all. Just a thought.

Both his parents were self destructive and Sawyer has a lot of them in him. Perhaps the reason he is unable to recognize that they were responsible for the mess they made of their lives is he is on the same path. One thing is for sure, the lesson he took away from all of that is how dangerous love can be. He has made damn sure he never cared about anyone enough to be hurt by them.

Oooooh losttvfan, I love where you're going with this...I think another thing that is interesting is the positioning of where the bodies were, we are assuming that based on the fact that his mother put him under the bed and left the room gives us some idea that maybe she was killed somewhere in the front part of the house, but what I think is particularly interesting is where James' father killed himself. Why did he go into his son's bedroom and kill himself there? What is the importance of why he chose that location? Was it simply to make it hurt that much more or was it just a random choice? Since I am a dummy when it it comes to symbolism, I will hope that our dear Perdue might be able to shed some light on that. All I can come up with is that by having the father kill himself there refers to his father's death as "hanging over his head", but that seems entirely too easy for it to be true. When it's earlier and I am more coherent, I'll check the script and see what's there, near as I can figure, I don't remember anything special about that.

Well, yes, Kate's last look might be construed as one final plea for Jack to prove himself and get them out of the situation, but i am probably one of the few who actually thinks that Sawyer will be more likely to get them out of it than Jack, especially if...
...it turns out that Jack has a new girlfriend and doesn't want to leave after all. Just a thought.

Muchacha, I think you just might be on to something here.

Okay everybody, I made a new video and this one killed me to make it...it's basically Sawyer's feelings IF, and its a big IF that I really don't think is happening, but on the far off chance that our dear Kate does not make the only plausible choice she can make and Sawyer's current fears are confirmed. I'm still crying and I just finished it.

Of course it's alwasy healthy to have a good cry, isn't it.

Here you go...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnhO1PtivtI

Huggs everyone,
See you tomorrow,
Lisa ;)

Oooooh losttvfan, I love where you're going with this...I think another thing that is interesting is the positioning of where the bodies were, we are assuming that based on the fact that his mother put him under the bed and left the room gives us some idea that maybe she was killed somewhere in the front part of the house, but what I think is particularly interesting is where James' father killed himself. Why did he go into his son's bedroom and kill himself there? What is the importance of why he chose that location? Was it simply to make it hurt that much more or was it just a random choice? Since I am a dummy when it it comes to symbolism, I will hope that our dear Perdue might be able to shed some light on that. All I can come up with is that by having the father kill himself there refers to his father's death as "hanging over his head", but that seems entirely too easy for it to be true. When it's earlier and I am more coherent, I'll check the script and see what's there, near as I can figure, I don't remember anything special about that.

i always assumed he went into that room to see if James was there. If he would have found James i think he would have killed him, but because he discovered that his son was "at his grandparents" i think he gave up and decided that it was time for him to go, next.

Hmm, a new thought suddenly occurs to me... After his parents' deaths was James raised by his grandparents or in foster care? :confused:

I wonder about the body postioning myself, very interesting thought i'm with you Lisa i think we should leave that up to Perdue :biggrin: Cause there might be a meaning there, sometimes there's significance to where a person kills themselves, not just why or how, and there definatly had to be a reason he chose his son's room.

As for the other question Muchacha It was in a extended scene in the CM script where Sawyer said said something about being raised by an Aunt and Uncle but was then shipped to foster care... it would certainly be interesting to find out where he ended up, it probably had as much to do with how he turned out as his parents deaths did. Foster care sometimes isn't a very nice place unfortunatly, esp for troubled kids like him.

Sorry, i'm tired, let's see if i can break it down a little.

At the end of last season a lot of people were in angst because they want to know what happens to Desmond, Locke, and Eko. Well we all know now that Desmond will be a regular next season, right? i always thought this was obvious because Charlie non chalantly said "What, they aren't back already?" when he returns to the beach.

Now, back to the Skate aspects: Kate makes her choice at the beginning of next season. After rewatching LTDA i now think that we won't have to wait to see the catalyst for Kate's decision, i think we already have. i think that this argument about what Michael did has proven to Kate that Jack doesn't trust her and never will. He's still trying to control her. i think that this is what we've been waiting for and that in aToTC Kate's finally going to tell Jack off. That's my theory, anyway.

Hope that makes more sense, i was super excited and trying to type everything out before i forgot it last post. :biggrin:

It made sense, but let me add...

Kate has yet to find out about the Sana incident which I fear will be revealed while they are captive. That, despite whatever conclusions she's come to in her heart and mind will color her decision. Besides, although the writers have promised that Kate will make her decision within the first six episodes, I doubt if it will come in the very first episode. Unless a sufficient amount of time has passed, its too soon.

Also, I believe extenuating circumstances in dealing with the "Others" will factor into the situation, but I seriously doubt this Juliet chick and Jack's sudden interest in her will be a factor.

The writers have gone on record stating that they plan to focus on some of the things they didn't get to with Jack, Ana Lucia and Kate. I realize there's going to be jealousies, but to have Kate choose Sawyer then get all pissy beacause Jack's taken up with a new confidant would be a repeat of S2. I would hope the writers wouldn't be that lazy in writing that storyline.

Personally, I believe Kate may choose Jack, and oddly enough, I'm okay with it. Not because I don't want S/K to get together, I just think they both deserve the opportunity to grow as individuals. Kate can't continue to be Sawyer's shoe-in to being accepted and having better relations within the camp, he's going to have to work at it himself. If Kate believes being by Jack's side will provide her with the respect, privledge and feeling of leadership she wants so badly, then by all means...go for it.

If any of this is making sense. That first cup of coffee is vital. :biggrin:

I also think it would be interesting to see how Kate processes Sawyer's response after her choice. It's probably a given he'd go the self-destructive route first because that's what familiar to him. Eventually, and hopefully by the advice or care of one of the other survivors he begins to away out the cycle...becoming more useful, trustworthy. Not to impress Kate necessarily, but circumstances within the camp are forcing the change, and he's no longer in the position to sit back and do nothing which inevitably evokes changes in him. (shrug)

I don't know...I need more coffee. ;)

Which makes me think (drumroll, please): Kate may have already made her choice! She looks hurt that Jack didn't trust her and horrified about what Michael has done and i think that this may be the straw that breaks the camel's back! . . . Input anyone?

But she blinked BACK at him!!!!! (haha joke)

Oooooh losttvfan, I love where you're going with this...I think another thing that is interesting is the positioning of where the bodies were, we are assuming that based on the fact that his mother put him under the bed and left the room gives us some idea that maybe she was killed somewhere in the front part of the house, but what I think is particularly interesting is where James' father killed himself. Why did he go into his son's bedroom and kill himself there? What is the importance of why he chose that location? Was it simply to make it hurt that much more or was it just a random choice? Since I am a dummy when it it comes to symbolism, I will hope that our dear Perdue might be able to shed some light on that. All I can come up with is that by having the father kill himself there refers to his father's death as "hanging over his head", but that seems entirely too easy for it to be true. When it's earlier and I am more coherent, I'll check the script and see what's there, near as I can figure, I don't remember anything special about that.

:shesaid:

I had never really thought about the "where" and I do hope Perdue can help on that one. Hopefully it was a cruel but random choice as I can't believe he would kill himself is his son's room deliberately.

Another interesting question is "would he have killed his son had he found him"? Or, another question "would the sight of little James have stopped him from killing himself"?

Lisa, I am off to see the video. I know it was a tough one for you to do, but I think the concept is great (so perfect for where Sawyer is right now) and I can't wait to see it.

Wonderful videos as usual Lisa. :clap:

Well, yes, Kate's last look might be construed as one final plea for Jack to prove himself and get them out of the situation, but i am probably one of the few who actually thinks that Sawyer will be more likely to get them out of it than Jack, especially if...

Muchacha, I agree. I do think that Sawyers definately gonna pull his weight and probably more, especially during the first 6 episodes.

Yes, so much is made of those exchanged looks between Jack and Kate on the dock, that many people forget the earlier looks/expressions exchanged over the finale and the few eps before. There are several times where we see Kate's frustration and annoyance and (dare I say it) realisation that Jack is being less than perfect, displayed on her face quite plainly. The whole sending Kate with Sawyer to find out where the guns were, and LTDA when they find out Jack knew of Mike's treachery. I even believe there was an element of that in parts of SOS, especially after Jack was yelling uselessly for the Others to come, and the fire scene afterwards when she finally attempted to patch things up with her 'I'm sorry about the kiss.'

Yes Zoriah, I can definately think of more than a few examples that there is trouble in paradise for Jate. After the way Jack barked at her and ordered her to go with Sawyer to get the guns, and didnt clue her in on the ambush (remember that this is after Kate has worked very hard to get back into Jacks good graces) and she apologized for the kiss, I dont think that speaks very favorably for Jate. Jack has definately acted like a tyrant with the camp and her, and he hasnt made any apologies as of yet.

Okay so heres my theory. And I actually think she could pick Sawyer. The more and more I think about it weighing all her options out Sawyer seems like the stronger candidate. And I dont know if thats just my bias speaking or what, but I think somethings going to go down while they are in captivity. To show both Jack and Sawyer in a new light. Kate supposedly idealizes Jack, but I think he is going to be persuaded by this Juliet person. And nothing romantic neccessarily has to happen with Jack/Juliet in the first 6 weeks, but she could get into his head. And if shes persuasive enough, I think Jack will side with the Others. I mean c'mon, hes already at the end of his rope, the man doesnt have any control. He desperately wants it back. This could very well expose his darker side by betraying his people and it will start to mix the sides. See I dont beleive the others are totally bad. So throwing Jack into the mix isnt gonna hurt him. And I hope Kate will make her choice for Sawyer based on the way she feels about him and knowing that he cares deeply for her and wants to be a better person instead of, Sawyer won by default. I dont think Kate would do that anyway. Its been far too long already. 2 whole seasons! I doubt the man she choses will be a choice made by default.

ITA, as that's my operative theory for Jack at the moment. And since when is anyone o this show totally bad or good?

p.s. How do you get the "What she said" sign to work, anyway?
100%
p.p.s. Are there any men in here?
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But she blinked BACK at him!!!!! (haha joke)

Maybe she had something in her eye? ;)

Okay so heres my theory. And I actually think she could pick Sawyer. The more and more I think about it weighing all her options out Sawyer seems like the stronger candidate. And I dont know if thats just my bias speaking or what, but I think somethings going to go down while they are in captivity. To show both Jack and Sawyer in a new light. Kate supposedly idealizes Jack, but I think he is going to be persuaded by this Juliet person. And nothing romantic neccessarily has to happen with Jack/Juliet in the first 6 weeks, but she could get into his head. And if shes persuasive enough, I think Jack will side with the Others. I mean c'mon, hes already at the end of his rope, the man doesnt have any control. He desperately wants it back. This could very well expose his darker side by betraying his people and it will start to mix the sides. See I dont beleive the others are totally bad. So throwing Jack into the mix isnt gonna hurt him. And I hope Kate will make her choice for Sawyer based on the way she feels about him and knowing that he cares deeply for her and wants to be a better person instead of, Sawyer won by default. I dont think Kate would do that anyway. Its been far too long already. 2 whole seasons! I doubt the man she choses will be a choice made by default.

But wouldn't whatever this supposed interest Jack's to show in Juliet, or possibly siding with the "Others" still make Sawyer, Kate's default choice? She would choose Jack, except he went over to the "dark" side...?

p.s. How do you get the "What she said" sign to work, anyway?
100%
p.p.s. Are there any men in here?
100%


Maybe she had something in her eye? ;)

Muchacha,
'What she said' sign - go to 'more' in the smilies section, then choose signs from the dropdown menu, I think it's in there!

As for having 'something in her eye' - :rotflmao2: - I still think there's no more meaning to this blink than some acknowledgement of the plan Jack mentioned, don't see how it can be anything else considering they're all probably scared enough thinking about what's gonna happen to them next

- Oh, and I'm of the female species too!
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Wonderful videos as usual Lisa. :clap:
Yay! My internet connection is now fast enough to allow me to watch these vids :biggrin:


Okay so heres my theory. And I actually think she could pick Sawyer. The more and more I think about it weighing all her options out Sawyer seems like the stronger candidate. And I dont know if thats just my bias speaking or what, but I think somethings going to go down while they are in captivity. To show both Jack and Sawyer in a new light. Kate supposedly idealizes Jack, but I think he is going to be persuaded by this Juliet person. And nothing romantic neccessarily has to happen with Jack/Juliet in the first 6 weeks, but she could get into his head. And if shes persuasive enough, I think Jack will side with the Others. I mean c'mon, hes already at the end of his rope, the man doesnt have any control. He desperately wants it back. This could very well expose his darker side by betraying his people and it will start to mix the sides. See I dont beleive the others are totally bad. So throwing Jack into the mix isnt gonna hurt him. And I hope Kate will make her choice for Sawyer based on the way she feels about him and knowing that he cares deeply for her and wants to be a better person instead of, Sawyer won by default. I dont think Kate would do that anyway. Its been far too long already. 2 whole seasons! I doubt the man she choses will be a choice made by default.
I totally agree with the above Girlspy, I think too that it's easy to forget that Kate does have some feelings for Sawyer. OK, we feel certain that Sawyer loves Kate, but not as sure about Kate's feelings for Sawyer - but remember Kate's reaction to Sawyer when he had that fever, she was in a very emotional state and I think that was somehow related to the fact that she was so concerned about the seriously ill Sawyer, not just because she was thinking about Wayne. Also, she seemed more than relieved when Sawyer awoke, she looked so happy to see him & be able to speak to him then. I think these scenes show a side to Kate which displays some possibility of her loving him - so I don't think it's all about Jack for her.

p.s. How do you get the "What she said" sign to work, anyway? You can type :she said: without the space... or :he said:

They are in the smiley menu too, I just find it easier to type most of the smiley's I use...

:hesaid: :shesaid:

Darbi: Strangely enough when you wrote about how Kate might choose Jack in this six ep mini arc, and why and how it might benefit Sawyer in the long run...I can actually see where you are coming from. I think I could even stomach it, as long as I could be certain that further down the road they would have both grown enough to realise they needed and loved each other after all. However, as a viewer I would find it hard to watch Jate in its current form which I find cringeworthy and troubling as far as Kate's independence/self confidence goes.

Darbi: Strangely enough when you wrote about how Kate might choose Jack in this six ep mini arc, and why and how it might benefit Sawyer in the long run...I can actually see where you are coming from. I think I could even stomach it, as long as I could be certain that further down the road they would have both grown enough to realise they needed and loved each other after all. However, as a viewer I would find it hard to watch Jate in its current form which I find cringeworthy and troubling as far as Kate's independence/self confidence goes.

Say that. However...

I hope for the sake of both Jack and Kate, they will grow. Kate needs to drop the worship nonsense. Jack needs to chill with the self-righteous act. Despite my disinterest in them as a couple, individually, I wish them the best.

We were getting into a good discussion over on FF concerning S/K, thought I'd bring it over.

Crazy, off the wall, left field, possibly untrue theory here...

What if Kate, in some obscure, rarely used recess of her mind or being feels there is something innately good about Sawyer, better yet James that she fears she's unworthy of?

Crazy thought, I know, but hear me out...

We all know that Kate's placed Jack upon a pedestal--constantly seeking his approval in a sense. Although she "slipped up", gotten on his bad side, she still looks to him for reaasurrance. Sawyer, on the other hand, she's always been a bit flippant towards, judging him like she could care less, because he's not "good" or isn't actively trying to be good like her. Now, that's not to say she's uninterested in him, hardly. But like Jack, subconsciously, she writes him off far too easily sometimes when it convenient. It may explain why she hasn't addressed him as James yet, or why it would appear she's completely overlooked how he reacted to her being held captive during 'THP.

First impressions are hard to get beyond, and we all know Kate and everyone else's first impression of Sawyer. Perhaps, there's a part of Kate that does want Sawyer to be "good", but there's also a part of her that feels "safe" or comforted that if she can think of Sawyer as being beneath her, that she's better than someone, she doesn't have to fear rejection, or that one day he would eventually turn and judge her.

:blush:

Like I said...a wild theory. ;)

Interesting stuff! Where is FF? Can you pm me the link, I'd love to check out the discussion.

I would agree that there could be an element of her feeling comforted that he can't prejudge her because he himself has done selfish and despicable things. And it fits into her craziness over the 'Wayne' thing too...she is more comfortable (on the whole) writing off Sawyer, and yet he does things which surprise her and make her reassess her idea of who he is. I'm pretty confident that if they bring Jack down off the pedestal to humanise him that we will also see Sawyer stepping up more, because he has to.

There is no Jater board where you will find anybody who seriously denies that Kate in fact has strong feelings for Sawyer. She doubtlessly was extremly scared as Sawyer was suffering from that fever. I am all with you expecting that Sawyer will cope much better with the captivity than Jack. The others seem to like psychological games the experienced con-men might be an equal opponent in. Sawyer is at least as good in this stuff as Fenry! So I can see the possibility that James is the hero! Then we will see if Kate really wants the hero.
By the way I saw you are speculating about season three without spoiler tags. So I guss they are not required here?

Darbi that's a great thought, i think there is a part of Kate that's more intimadated by James than by Sawyer. She can put Sawyer in a box and dimiss him easily i think but that James side really scares her. Cause she can't define it as easily. It's a different side of thim, a good side and she maybe dosen't know what to do with that. It confuses her, brings out stronger feelings than she wants to feel for him. And maybe you guys are right on the whole idea that if he's good deep down she fears he might judge her too.

Darbi that's a great thought, i think there is a part of Kate that's more intimadated by James than by Sawyer. She can put Sawyer in a box and dimiss him easily i think but that James side really scares her. Cause she can't define it as easily. It's a different side of thim, a good side and she maybe dosen't know what to do with that. It confuses her, brings out stronger feelings than she wants to feel for him. And maybe you guys are right on the whole idea that if he's good deep down she fears he might judge her too.


It's possible.

Personally, I don't believe Kate's ever really known what to do with Sawyer or how she feels about him, even now. Quite the dilemma.

If WKD is any indication, I would concur. She really is conflicted in how she feels about him. Yes, she reconciled her projection of Wayne upon him, but then he went and pulled the Long Con on her, and THEN was supportive when she needed to grieve. All very confusing.

Darbi that's a great thought, i think there is a part of Kate that's more intimadated by James than by Sawyer. She can put Sawyer in a box and dimiss him easily i think but that James side really scares her. Cause she can't define it as easily. It's a different side of thim, a good side and she maybe dosen't know what to do with that. It confuses her, brings out stronger feelings than she wants to feel for him. And maybe you guys are right on the whole idea that if he's good deep down she fears he might judge her too.


I think Kate has probably encountered men like Sawyer while on the run, so she knows what to expect from him. I think at the beginning, she did put him in a box, like everyone else did. She didn't think he was better than what he showed. Reading that letter in CM gave her the first glimpse into James. She gets Sawyer better than anyone else does or will, but James doesn't come out often. I'm not sure if Sawyer even knows who James is, cause he has been Sawyer for so long. I don't think James scares her. She knows that is who he is, and I don't think he will ever judge her no matter if he's good deep down. Sawyer has been the one, that has never judged Kate and I don't think becoming James will change that

i always assumed he went into that room to see if James was there. If he would have found James i think he would have killed him, but because he discovered that his son was "at his grandparents" i think he gave up and decided that it was time for him to go, next
That's been my take on it, too, Muchacha! His other intended victim apparently not there, all the rage and vengeance ebbed out of him, and he just sat on James' bed, drained, and checked out.

I also wonder if the thought crossed daddy's mind that maybe his son WASN'T his son. His wife proved unfaithful here; maybe she'd slept with someone else at the same time she was "seeing" him--and just SAID he was the father of her unborn child? As I mentioned in an earlier post, this might actually be true. But even if it wasn't, it would make sense that daddy would have his suspicions now that he HAD been cuckolded!

As for James himself, if this was the ONLY conclusion to marriage he'd seen--parent unfaithful to the other parent (both his own parents, and the couples he himself later conned)--he wouldn't be too eager about making that commitment, would he? Kate's really shaken up his views!

The others seem to like psychological games the experienced con-men might be an equal opponent in. Sawyer is at least as good in this stuff as Fenry! So I can see the possibility that James is the hero!
Good reasoning, Hufflepuff! If playing mind games is The Others' thing, they may be about to meet their match! While Jack starts to "lose it." Kate may come to see that Jack may be a great guy, but he sure can't handle real life crises very well! (And judging from how Jack's handled crises this past season, I'd be in agreeance with her! He may be cool as a cucumber in surgery--but OUTSIDE the operating room? Fuggitaboutit!) And she, too, usually deals with hardship/problems pretty well. More common ground with James. More relaxed and open with James. No judgmentalism with James. And she "gets" James!

Sounds like her choice would be the easiest decision she makes while in captivity! :love:

That's been my take on it, too, Muchacha! His other intended victim apparently not there, all the rage and vengeance ebbed out of him, and he just sat on James' bed, drained, and checked out.

I also wonder if the thought crossed daddy's mind that maybe his son WASN'T his son. His wife proved unfaithful here; maybe she'd slept with someone else at the same time she was "seeing" him--and just SAID he was the father of her unborn child? As I mentioned in an earlier post, this might actually be true. But even if it wasn't, it would make sense that daddy would have his suspicions now that he HAD been cuckolded!

Cuckolded? :roflmao:

As for James himself, if this was the ONLY conclusion to marriage he'd seen--parent unfaithful to the other parent (both his own parents, and the couples he himself later conned)--he wouldn't be too eager about making that commitment, would he? Kate's really shaken up his views!

Boy, he truly is one screwed up duck, isn't he? What a sad, sad, truth. It's a wonder there's even a trace of humanity in this guy. And yes, Kate is certainly screwing with his life long plan in being a shiftless butt-head.


Good reasoning, Hufflepuff! If playing mind games is The Others' thing, they may be about to meet their match! While Jack starts to "lose it." Kate may come to see that Jack may be a great guy, but he sure can't handle real life crises very well! (And judging from how Jack's handled crises this past season, I'd be in agreeance with her! He may be cool as a cucumber in surgery--but OUTSIDE the operating room? Fuggitaboutit!) And she, too, usually deals with hardship/problems pretty well. More common ground with James. More relaxed and open with James. No judgmentalism with James. And she "gets" James!

I can not wait for a Fenry/Sawyer exchange. And we can't forget about his good buddy, "Zeke".

Sounds like her choice would be the easiest decision she makes while in captivity! :love:

You'd think it would be.

Cuckolded? :roflmao:
Wondered if anyone would spot that, Darbi! :D

Gotta love those Shakespearian-era words! And it DOES describe what the Mr. Sawyers of the world do with their "targets"!!

I think that James would :heart: to get his revenge on Tom/Zeke in Kate's presence! And she'd be glad to get her jabs in, too! Hey--ANOTHER thing they have in common! :biggrin:

Wondered if anyone would spot that, Darbi! :D

Gotta love those Shakespearian-era words! And it DOES describe what the Mr. Sawyers of the world do with their "targets"!!

I think that James would :heart: to get his revenge on Tom/Zeke in Kate's presence! And she'd be glad to get her jabs in, too! Hey--ANOTHER thing they have in common! :biggrin:

For once couldn't it be a shared love for snicker doodles or collared greens and made-from-scratch corn bread? ;)

Boy, he truly is one screwed up duck, isn't he? What a sad, sad, truth. It's a wonder there's even a trace of humanity in this guy. And yes, Kate is certainly screwing with his life long plan in being a shiftless butt-head.


It's a wonder he's even got anything good in him at all, i agree. She has messed up all those ideas he had... Poor sap never had a chance did he?

But we like that shirtless butthead don't we? :biggrin:

It's a wonder he's even got anything good in him at all, i agree. She has messed up all those ideas he had... Poor sap never had a chance did he?

But we like that shirtless butthead don't we? :biggrin:

Shiftless, shirtless...yes, yes we do. :hypocrit: And no, he never really did. Excellent! :cheeky-smiley-022:

For once couldn't it be a shared love for snicker doodles or collared greens and made-from-scratch corn bread? ;)
Black-eyed peas. Those two need all the luck they can get! :grin:

I would love to have been able to read Kate's mind the moment she first saw Eko carrying a half-dead James across his shoulders, in "Collision"! Would've answered a lot of :heart: questions, I'll bet!

Black-eyed peas. Those two need all the luck they can get! :grin:

I would love to have been able to read Kate's mind the moment she first saw Eko carrying a half-dead James across his shoulders, in "Collision"! Would've answered a lot of :heart: questions, I'll bet!

You know STH that's something i would've like to have known there there too. I couldd imagine what she must have been thinking seeing him half dead like that. The things that were goin through her mind. Like the last things she said to him and the last time she saw him. That would be a great script to have too i think. And of course the pill scene.... :biggrin:

Another thing: I bet that JACK would never have seen the black horse! :no2:

Black-eyed peas. Those two need all the luck they can get! :grin:

Ha! That's so true.

I would love to have been able to read Kate's mind the moment she first saw Eko carrying a half-dead James across his shoulders, in "Collision"! Would've answered a lot of :heart: questions, I'll bet!

Was there a coherent thought going through Kate's head at the moment? With the shock of seeing him like that, I don't imagine she was processing much at all.

Good Morning Outkasters!!!

My, my we have had some interesting conversation since last I was here.

Here's something to think about that losttvfan and I were hashin out yesterday. We think we may have figured out why Diane turned Kate in after she killed Wayne. Why would a mother turn in her own child who was trying to give her mother a better life, unless the mother didn't really WANT a better life and LIKED what Wayne was doing to her. In some way, it could have been that Diane enjoyed Wayne's abuse and, it could even be said that she might have liked "rough sex" with Wayne. It's hard for me to imagine why she would have given up her own child unless her need for Wayne was stronger than the need for her own child.

So that's something to think about.

Now here's something else that I thought about too. If you read the script from Confidence Man (if you don't have one, then go to Ebay and buy one, that's where mine came from and then I have another copy I got from winning the DIMPLES fan fiction contest, but that's a story for another day) you'll see that Sawyer talks about finding out about the original Sawyer from his uncle at his MOTHER'S funeral. He has a very telling sentence.

Sawyer's eyes DROP -- holding them in a real TIGHT TWO-SHOT -- this is pure intimacy of their moment, impossible to avoid.
Kate:
Sawyer isn't your name, is it?
a LONG beat passes before --
Sawyer: (quietly)
It was his name. First heard it at my momma's wake. My daddy didn't get one -- you don't get a wake when you kiss yourself. Was my Uncle Doug who pulled me aside. Tole me it as a confidence man who killed them. Told me how he rolled into town, marked my folks. Romanced my momma, used her to get to their money. Wiped 'em out clean, left a mess behind. Only thing the cops has was his name on a bogus business card.

Okay everybody, read his words very carefully...when he talking about the wake. Those words a child would use to express his thoughts. I think this shows that in Sawyer's mind it was the original Sawyer who killed his family, he doesn't process the fact that it was his father and that their were more than likely serious problems in their marriage to begin with.

Just my thoughts here and wonder what y'all's take is on it.

Also, has anyone heard from our dear Perdue. I haven't spoken with her in a while and I'm getting concerned.

Huggs,
Lisa

P.S. STH, Chapter 22 is on it's way, very soon.

Good Morning Outkasters!!!

My, my we have had some interesting conversation since last I was here.

Here's something to think about that losttvfan and I were hashin out yesterday. We think we may have figured out why Diane turned Kate in after she killed Wayne. Why would a mother turn in her own child who was trying to give her mother a better life, unless the mother didn't really WANT a better life and LIKED what Wayne was doing to her. In some way, it could have been that Diane enjoyed Wayne's abuse and, it could even be said that she might have liked "rough sex" with Wayne. It's hard for me to imagine why she would have given up her own child unless her need for Wayne was stronger than the need for her own child.

So that's something to think about.



I got the sense that Diane and Kate's relationship was strained to a certain extent, like there was some resentment on Diane's part that Kate even existed. Or, it could have been that staying with Wayne was a way Diane punished herself for messing around on Sam, getting pregnant and leaving him for such a low life. Kate was a constant reminder of her shame. It's possible she hated and loved Wayne equally, but when Kate murdered him, instead of being thankful he was gone, she hated Kate for doing what she couldn't bring herself to do. :undecide: It's a conundrum.

Good Morning Outkasters!!!

My, my we have had some interesting conversation since last I was here.

"Here's something to think about that losttvfan and I were hashin out yesterday. We think we may have figured out why Diane turned Kate in after she killed Wayne. Why would a mother turn in her own child who was trying to give her mother a better life, unless the mother didn't really WANT a better life and LIKED what Wayne was doing to her. In some way, it could have been that Diane enjoyed Wayne's abuse and, it could even be said that she might have liked "rough sex" with Wayne. It's hard for me to imagine why she would have given up her own child unless her need for Wayne was stronger than the need for her own child."

"Okay everybody, read his words very carefully...when he talking about the wake. Those words a child would use to express his thoughts. I think this shows that in Sawyer's mind it was the original Sawyer who killed his family, he doesn't process the fact that it was his father and that their were more than likely serious problems in their marriage to begin with."


:shesaid:

In a chat last night with Lisa, girlspy15, honeypoppy, and fricks we all realized how many of the Island's inhabitants had really messed up parents. Look at the list: Kate, Sawyer, Jack, Locke, Sun, Shannon and Boone (RIP) and probably Eko. And we are not talking just messed up but parents with major damaging flaws. These people, as children, were exposed to wife beating, alcohol addiction, abandonment, murder, suicide, criminal activity, adultery, and possibly sexual abuse (maybe even incest). All of them were denied any support or approval from their parents and many of them were used by their parents for their own purposes i.e. Sun's dad and Locke's father (?). Even Hurley was institutionalized, although the reason is still unclear.

We also noticed how many of them had killed someone (whatever the circumstances or reason): Kate, Sawyer, Jack, Sayid, Michael, Charlie, Ana Lucia, and Eko. That's a high % for such a small group of survivors (and I may have forgotten someone).

All of them appear to have serious psychological problems created by the damage inflicted on them by the people with the most inpact on their childhood years and the scars left behind. So,they have a lot in common!

Now is this just random chance or an underlying reason that they are there, on the Island, together?

Hello, folks! I've been traveling for business, then taking care of my elderly mother who had surgery so just now am back at a computer that isn't being monitored. :) So much reading to catch up on. I'll be spending the day here.

All of them appear to have serious psychological problems. So they have a lot in common! Now is this just random chance or an underlying reason that they are there, on the Island together?

That was always my guess, but given the explaination of why the plane went down (random occurence) I'm not so sure anymore. To date, the writers have yet to connect any more of the numbers to the survivors. Kate being the only one besides Hurley using the sequence of numbers in winning the lottery...so that connection is yet to be reestablished again.

In a chat last night with Lisa, girlspy15, honeypoppy, and fricks we all realized how many of the Island's inhabitants had really messed up parents. Look at the list: Kate, Sawyer, Jack, Locke, Sun, Shannon and Boone (RIP) and probably Eko. And we are not talking just messed up but parents with major damaging flaws. These people, as children, were exposed to wife beating, alcohol addiction, abandonment, murder, suicide, criminal activity, adultery, and possibly sexual abuse (maybe even incest). All of them were denied any support or approval and many of them were used by their parents for their own purposes i.e. Sun's dad and Locke's father (?).

We also noticed how many of them had killed someone (whatever the circumstances or reason): Kate, Sawyer, Jack, Michael, Charlie, Ana Lucia, and Eko. That's a high % for such a small group of survivors.

All of them appeared to have serious psychological problems. So they have a lot in common. Is this just a random fact or an underlying reason that they are there together?

Yep, it just highlights the fact that parents have a lot to answer for sometimes.
I have often wondered about Kate's mother Diane and turning in her own daughter after the life Wayne had given her. I know abusive relationships can often seem complicated to the victim in the relationship i.e. that women often love their partner so much they can't see beyond that & realise they have to get out before serious harm happens to them. But what I don't understand is when there's a child involved, how can a mother continue on & expose that child to seeing that abuse & perhaps endangering their lives too? Surely the child's safety and wellbeing should come first.
On top of all that, Diane turned Kate in & seemed to hate her for killing Wayne - I can understand her hating that Kate resorted to that i.e. the act of killing, but to actually hate her own child for it is another thing I don't understand. On top of that, Kate may even have suffered abuse herself - I can totally understand the feeling that would give rise to wanting to kill someone for that and if this was the case, my heart goes out to Kate for feeling that she had to go through it & do the job herself. I think we need to learn a lot more about Kate's past life, we really don't know a huge amount about her life growing up, just the bare outline of it.

As for Sawyer, it seems more obvious to me why he's so screwed up - 'cos a lot of that seems to have stemmed from the fact of how his parents died and his perception of how the original Sawyer caused their deaths. It is a wonder that there's any good left in him at all.

OK, I think I may be going off point a bit here with all that rambling, I just had to voice those thoughts. It is indeed strange though that so many of the characters seem to have so many psychological problems - I think the only way we'll know if there is an actual reason they're all there together on the island is by continuing to watch & learn. Maybe the Others will be somehow involved in analysing them & working out why they act in certain ways? Only time will tell...

wow lots to talk about, i'll dive right in...

As far as Diane and Wayne. This happenes sometimes in relationships such as this, there's a comfort level, your used to the abuse, in fact think you deserve it. You love the man and resent your own child for essentially taking everything you've known, for having the courage to do it for one thing, and esp for the fact that they didn't go along with it. If there was in fact abuse towards Kate, in a sexual way, then jealousy is involved as well. If he payed attention to the daughter the mother resents her for that. It's sick but it's been known to happen. And then Kate decides to destroy it once and for all, and Diane hates her for taking her life away as well.

As far as Sawyer, I can't think of any reason why someone should be telling a traumatized child things like that a his parents furneral. That's just wrong on so many levels. And Lisa your right, he thinks of it the way a child would, with a childs perception of events. Someone bad had to have done something to my partents to make this happen, it can't be their fault. The truth is just too painful to consider. And if there were problems in the marriage, even if he noticed them, he's not gonna acknowledge them. To do so would be to face the truth of what happened there. And that would be too damn much for someone whose lived his whole life around that. To knock that peg out from under him would be devasting to say the least.

As far as the seemingly large amount of seriously messed up people on that island that can't be coincidence, there has to be a reason for that. And underlying element to why they are all there. I just can't believe that that crash was completly an accident.. maybe i've just watched to many conspiracy movies but i just can't see it. They had to all be on that plane for a reason. And here's something i didn't mention last night.
How the people got on the plane, i heard this theory on ABC about how most of them didn't buy thier tickets. Check it ou:

Jack: his mother bought his tickets.
Kate: the Marshall brought her on the plane
Sawyer: Aussie police put him on that plane
Charlie: record complany paid for them
Claire: the psychic payed her way
Sayid: US Government paid his, in fact was supposed to be on a differnet flight.
Locke:the Walkabout thing paid for his trip back

I'm sure theres more, ABC had a more comprehensive list, maybe someone could help me out here, but the short order is that alot of them didn't buy their way on the plane... found that interestinig...

How the people got on the plane, i heard this theory on ABC about how most of them didn't buy thier tickets. Check it ou:

Jack: his mother bought his tickets.
Kate: the Marshall brought her on the plane
Sawyer: Aussie police put him on that plane
Charlie: record complany paid for them
Claire: the psychic payed her way
Sayid: US Government paid his, in fact was supposed to be on a differnet flight.

I'm sure theres more, ABC had a more comprehensive list, maybe someone could help me out here, but the short order is that alot of them didn't buy their way on the plane... found that interestinig...

Hmm Locke had the walkabout company to get him a flight back.

Tickets (http://www.longlostlist.net/listforum/Recurring_Objects/Recurring_Tickets.htm/ticket.htm)
This is from the LLL

Why are we assuming her mother hated Kate? Because she turned her in? When Kate met her at the hospital she seemed terrified of her more than anything. I think that as conditioned as she was to the abuse, the fact that her daughter premeditatively murdered her husband and completely blew up and destroyed her home must have pushed her over the edge.

Why are we assuming her mother hated Kate? Because she turned her in? When Kate met her at the hospital she seemed terrified of her more than anything. I think that as conditioned as she was to the abuse, the fact that her daughter premeditatively murdered her husband and completely blew up and destroyed her home must have pushed her over the edge.

You could be right Zoriah, I never thought of her as being terrified of her. Maybe she was because of the years of abuse she suffered & is no longer able to think straight but I don't know how any mother in their right mind would think that Kate would harm her too - if she thought about it for half a second she'd then surely recognise her daughter's reasons for doing it - but Diane well may not have been in her right mind, she was ill too at that time when Kate saw her in the hospital so who knows...
100%

As far as the seemingly large amount of seriously messed up people on that island that can't be coincidence, there has to be a reason for that. And underlying element to why they are all there. I just can't believe that that crash was completly an accident.. maybe i've just watched to many conspiracy movies but i just can't see it. They had to all be on that plane for a reason. And here's something i didn't mention last night.
How the people got on the plane, i heard this theory on ABC about how most of them didn't buy thier tickets. Check it ou:

Jack: his mother bought his tickets.
Kate: the Marshall brought her on the plane
Sawyer: Aussie police put him on that plane
Charlie: record complany paid for them
Claire: the psychic payed her way
Sayid: US Government paid his, in fact was supposed to be on a differnet flight.
Locke:the Walkabout thing paid for his trip back

I'm sure theres more, ABC had a more comprehensive list, maybe someone could help me out here, but the short order is that alot of them didn't buy their way on the plane... found that interestinig...

That list is really interesting Fricksgurl and Car88 - does sound as if they were meant to be there - a case of fate playing a hand for reasons which though not readily apparent but which would ultimately help them or something more sinister??

I got the sense that Diane and Kate's relationship was strained to a certain extent, like there was some resentment on Diane's part that Kate even existed. Or, it could have been that staying with Wayne was a way Diane punished herself for messing around on Sam, getting pregnant and leaving him for such a low life. Kate was a constant reminder of her shame. It's possible she hated and loved Wayne equally, but when Kate murdered him, instead of being thankful he was gone, she hated Kate for doing what she couldn't bring herself to do. :undecide: It's a conundrum.

ITA Darbi, and another thing I think is so interesting is that in WKD when Kate asked her about her wrist and she made some silly excuse, Kate told her to stop and she looked at her and said, "I made my bed Katherine." It's more to the fact that she had made the choices she was going to make and whether or not she was self-aware to change them, we don't know.

But I did notice some kind of regret on Diane's part. Those were very telling words. "I made my bed..." The key word here is "I", she's at least taking responsibility for the decision, however, I would imagine there is sex abuse going on, or at least was going on with Kate and Wayne. When he kept telling her she was beautiful and "Aren't you gonna take my pants off...", those were big clues, y'all. Also notice the way she pulled her arm away from him. That was pure rage and anger. And I don't buy for one second her line to Sawyer/Wayne about "I'll never be good, I'll never have anything good." I believe, and this is just me, I could be wrong, but I believe that it had a lot to do with Wayne beating her mother and quite possibly her too, and for certain the sex abuse she suffered at his hands, assuming that he did abuse her, which I think he did.

But what I don't understand is when there's a child involved, how can a mother continue on & expose that child to seeing that abuse & perhaps endangering their lives too? Surely the child's safety and wellbeing should come first.

On top of all that, Diane turned Kate in & seemed to hate her for killing Wayne - I can understand her hating that Kate resorted to that i.e. the act of killing, but to actually hate her own child for it is another thing I don't understand. On top of that, Kate may even have suffered abuse herself - I can totally understand the feeling that would give rise to wanting to kill someone for that and if this was the case, my heart goes out to Kate for feeling that she had to go through it & do the job herself. I think we need to learn a lot more about Kate's past life, we really don't know a huge amount about her life growing up, just the bare outline of it.

As for Sawyer, it seems more obvious to me why he's so screwed up - 'cos a lot of that seems to have stemmed from the fact of how his parents died and his perception of how the original Sawyer caused their deaths. It is a wonder that there's any good left in him at all.

MSF, you are absolutely right on this one. The fact that Diane gave Kate up the feds at all is very telling, it proves that she loved her husband, with all his abuses and his fault's more than she loved her own child. That to me is inconceiveable but it happens every day.

As for our dear Sawyer, I agree too. He's powerless to do anything about the way he thinks of this horrible person who killed his parents. When in all honesty, the original Sawyer is not the one who killed anyone, but Sawyer cannot understand that this person was simply the catalyst for act that was brewing already.

There were serious problems in that marriage that had nothing to do with the Sawyer that took their money. There were problems between his father and mother to start with.

Okay here's some info from the outlaws script that might help prove the problems that were already there.

VOICE: (O.S.) <---- means off stage, don't really know where its' comiing from.
Wake up!
The eye SNAPS OPEN, and we reaveal:

INT. BEDROOM - NIGHT - FLASHBACK

A YOUNG BOY (eight years old, blonde hair, blue eyes) being rousted from his sleep by this MOM (late twenties, pretty, blonde hair)

She's terrified. She levels her gaze at her son:
MOM: (softly)
He's here.
The boy's face goes cold. As he hurries out of the bed, we hear the muffled sounds of FRANTIC BANGING at the front door. We're in the BOY'S BEDROOM -- it's small, simple. Not a lot of decorations -- nothing that would indicate time or place. Someone desperately WANTS IN THE HOUSE -- we hear his ANGRY VOICE YELLING offscreen --
VOICE:
OPEN THE DOOR!!
And this all plays FRANTIC -- the BANGING and the YELLING continue throughout the scene, keeping tension at a fever pitch. Mom looks around, trying to figure out what to do. Her hands are shaking -- she's rattled. We're CLOSE ON THE BOY -- we see all this from his POV: his mom quickly makes the bed. He doesn't move. She gets down on her knees, looks him in the eyes. Tries to speak to him in a calm voice.
MOM:
Listen to mommy. Get under the bed. Don't make a sound. Don't come out.
After reading this I pretty much believe that James' dad would have killed him too. I think his mom knew and that's why she put him under the bed.

As to what Fricks said earlier, you are absolutely right, when a woman is in an abusive relationship, she thinks she can't do anything else. She thinks she's damaged and worthless and that if even if she did leave she'd never be able to have anything or anyone that wanted her. Which I find very interesting since Jack referred to Kate as damaged good in the net episode. In a sense they are all damaged goods, but in this case Diane probably couldn't put her hands on $100 that was hers free and clear.

She had become accustomed to Wayne and even the abuse was a form of attention and that no matter what happened, she'd always want to be with Wayne, so the decision to not be with him was made for her. Again, someone else had control over her, so here only act of getting any retaliation for the loss of Wayne was to turn in the person who did it. She couldn't get away from Wayne on her own, so her daughter did it for her, and since her daughter was strong enough and she wasn't, that makes her hold her daughter at fault that much more. And her last vastion of defiance against everything and to get some payback for Kate making the decision for her, was to turn her in to the feds, so she can for once in her life have the upper hand.

Just my thoughts,
Huggs,
Lisa ;)

I've had a bit of experience with Women's Refuge etc. and yes it can be hard to see it from the Diane's point of view, but here are my thoughts:

We don't know yet if Kate was threatened or abused at all at any time. We can only speculate. Yes, Wayne did act inappropriately in the FB, but it's still not evidence that he had ever beat or molested her. So, it is quite possible that Diane may have rationalised that Kate was never in harm's way.

We don't know to what extent Kate's mother was hurt, other than her twisted/sprained wrist. So we don't know if Diane ever felt she was personally seriously in mortal danger (enough to warrant killing Wayne in self defense). I know that's hard to believe, but we have to remember that Diane appears to have loved Wayne.

People who find themselves in abusive situations often have low self esteem and are manipulated into thinking it is all their fault, that if they only just did what their partner wanted, or changed their behaviour that the patterns of abuse would stop. Usually the abuse starts out gradually, verbally first, and by the time it becomes more physical, the victim has been conditioned already to rationalise the incidents as being triggered by something she did or didn't do.

I hope that helps explain a little bit why Diane seems to have turned on her daughter by giving her over to the police, and calling for help when she woke up and found her standing over her bed. In her mind, her daughter had escalated a situation that was not completely Wayne's fault, nor was it so bad that it justified murder. She loved the man, and was horrified that he was killed by her own daughter, who most likely up to that point Diane would never have imagined was capable of killing/hurting anyone. Her daughter blew up her home as well, so everything she possessed/loved was gone. So in a way, she basically destroyed her life.

I hope that helps explain a little bit why Diane seems to have turned on her daughter by giving her over to the police, and calling for help when she woke up and found her standing over her bed. In her mind, her daughter had escalated a situation that was not completely Wayne's fault, nor was it so bad that it justified murder. She loved the man, and was horrified that he was killed by her own daughter, who most likely up to that point Diane would never have imagined was capable of killing/hurting anyone. Her daughter blew up her home as well, so everything she possessed/loved was gone. So in a way, she basically destroyed her life.

That's true, because along with Wayne and her home, she lost a daughter as well.

wow thanks LIsa for posting that Outlaws script. It really sheds some interesting light on the situation. They were both clearly terrified, and i agree i think his mome did believe his father capable of killing the child too. Definatly serious isssues in that marriage no doubt about that. The Sawyer guy was just a catalyst for something that might have occured anyways. Of course Sawyer is probably in complete denial about any problems that might have been apparent. But it was clear that both he and his mom were terrified of his father. That much was obvious.

And as far the Diane stuff Zoriah that was great insight into that. She would be angry and restentful that her daughter took the iniative and essentially destroyed her whole life. Cause as bad as that life was, it was all she had really. Now she has nothing. And like you said, she felt she could handle it, that she'd 'made her bed' so to speak.
I distinctly remember Kates 'reason' for killing Wayne, what she told Sawyer/Wayne in WKD "it's not cause you beat her, or the way you looked at me, it was that i couldn't stand that you were part of me...' that was her reason given... i found that interesting. And that she made a point of tellling the Marshall 'he never touched me' which was a lie cause he clearly did right before she blew him up... i dunno. Could mean something could mean nothing. But her mother clearly was upset that Kate tried to to take care of her, and herself.. And took away everything as a result.

And that she made a point of tellling the Marshall 'he never touched me' which was a lie cause he clearly did right before she blew him up... i dunno

I don't think she was being literal there. I think she meant he never molested her sexually. And judging by her honest confession to 'Wayne' about why she killed him, and her line 'the way you looked at me', I am inclined to believe her. That's not to say he didn't have inappropriate thoughts or impulses, but it would seem that he never quite crossed that line. Not if we are to believe Kate's heart to heart with Sawyer/Wayne.

Again, someone else had control over her, so here only act of getting any retaliation for the loss of Wayne was to turn in the person who did it. She couldn't get away from Wayne on her own, so her daughter did it for her, and since her daughter was strong enough and she wasn't, that makes her hold her daughter at fault that much more. And her last vastion of defiance against everything and to get some payback for Kate making the decision for her, was to turn her in to the feds, so she can for once in her life have the upper hand.

Just my thoughts,
Huggs,
Lisa ;)

Why did this eerily remind me of the euthanizing scene in Tabula Rasa, except the anger was between Sawyer and Jack? :eek2:

I don't think she was being literal there. I think she meant he never molested her sexually. And judging by her honest confession to 'Wayne' about why she killed him, and her line 'the way you looked at me', I am inclined to believe her. That's not to say he didn't have inappropriate thoughts or impulses, but it would seem that he never quite crossed that line. Not if we are to believe Kate's heart to heart with Sawyer/Wayne.

that's why i said i wasn't sure, just speculation. That was her God's honest confession to Sawyer/Wayne then i'll believe her myself. Like i said, i wasn't sure on it. Either way the guy was a jerk, i'm not sorry she blew him up. But obviously her mother didn't se it that way. Which just adds more tragedy to the situation.

Why did this eerily remind me of the euthanizing scene in Tabula Rasa, except the anger was between Sawyer and Jack? :eek2:

you know waht Darbi it does actually. Jack displaced the anger at Sawyer cause he couldn't do it himself. Hence the whole 'why did you do that?' thing to Sawyer, who answered 'cause you couldn't'. The person i.e. Jack or Diane was possibly very upset that Sawyer/Kate took care of the situation instead of them. In other words 'it was MY problem to handle' So therefore they were royally Po'd. Very interesing...

you know waht Darbi it does actually. Jack displaced the anger at Sawyer cause he couldn't do it himself. Hence the whole 'why did you do that?' thing to Sawyer, who answered 'cause you couldn't'. The person i.e. Jack or Diane was possibly very upset that Sawyer/Kate took care of the situation instead of them. In other words 'it was MY problem to handle' So therefore they were royally Po'd. Very interesing...

Interesting indeed. May help explain a great deal of the animosity between the two men.

Speaking of euthanizing, does anyone recall if Libby woke up before Jack injected her with the heroin, or did she wake up because of it?

It certainly would explain the thier animosity.. Sawyer did what Jack couldn't and he simply couldn't deal with that. Same with Diane and Kate in a strange way..

as far as Libby i ton't think she was awake until he did that. But she was clearly suffering which showed how far things have come since then with Jack.

Why did this eerily remind me of the euthanizing scene in Tabula Rasa, except the anger was between Sawyer and Jack?

Wow I never realized the parallel, Darbi, until you brought it up!

Wow I never realized the parallel, Darbi, until you brought it up!


Until lisa brought it up, I hadn't either.

The Sawyer guy was just a catalyst for something that might have occured anyways.
THIS perspective, I can buy, fricks. Because Mr. Sawyer WAS the catalyst that drove Mr. Ford to the murder/suicide. But that DOES lay some blame on Mr. Sawyer, don't you agree? So James isn't really wrong to lay blame on the dude.

Now, the Ford marriage was obviously a rocky one. Maybe a lot of screaming arguments. No way (yet) of knowing it got any more physical, though. And WOULD Mr. Ford have ever been driven to murder/suicide if Mr. Sawyer hadn't come along to be a catalyst? We just don't know. . .yet.

So all we DO know as of now is that things hadn't come to a head at the Ford household, until Mr. Sawyer and his con came along.

Not unlike things not coming to a head at the Jansen/Austen household, until Kate found out Wayne was her biological father, and all past events there took on a whole new light for her.

So you are right to speculate that what happened at the Ford's place (and, parallel, at the Jansen/Austen place) might have happened, anyway. But you must also consider that without those particular catalysts, they may NOT have happened, either.

Thus, I don't blame James for blaming Mr. Sawyer at all. Because who knows what may/may not have happened if he hadn't shown up in town?

The parallels in home life with James and Kate are growing more :eek: everytime I think of them. Small wonder they "get" each other!



Oh, and Lisa? Thanks for the message! Looking VERY forward to Chapter 22! :book:

Almost makes you wonder if taking on the original Mr. Sawyer's persona was the best of two evils for young James. Smooth talking con man who beds bored wives to get to their rich husbands money, or the rich or well-off man who was possibly abusive to his wife, but hadn't yet taken up beating his son before he was driven to murder/suicide? Some choice, huh?

Man, we are wading in some pretty dark waters here...

Almost makes you wonder if taking on the original Mr. Sawyer's persona was the best of two evils for young James. Smooth talking con man who beds bored wives to get to their rich husbands money, or the rich or well-off man who was possibly abusive to his wife, but hadn't yet taken up beating his son before he was driven to murder/suicide? Some choice, huh?

Man, we are wading in some pretty dark waters here...

When you put it that way, it seems like there wasn't much of a choice there was it.. damn what a sad life. Things could've gotten pretty damn bad in that house anyways no matter what. Poor kid was screwed from the beginning.

STH i never implied that 'Sawyer' didn't have some blame there but it was Mr. Ford who pulled the trigger and did the real damage to his son. That is undenialable in my eyes. Sawyer, or James as you like to call him :biggrin: has to accept that fact too. His parents may have been conned but i doubt every family that's been conned by the 'real' Sawyer and the ones conned by 'our' Sawyer ended up in that same tragic situation. Not every betrayed husband kills their wives and then themselves, orphaning thier children. Otherwise there'd be a trail of bodies a mile long. What he did, and what our Sawyer does is terrible to families but it only results in tragedy when there is an obvious issue to begin with. Sawyer has to know and understand that his parents are just as culpable for the mess that occured, but i'm not sure he could deal with or handle that. But i think that is part of what he needs to understand in order to get better emotionally. But it sure would rough to deal with that's for sure.

Agreeance, fricks. Just reflecting that maybe Mr. Ford would never have gone to such lengths if Mr. Sawyer hadn't shown up. Still, James would've then kept growing up in a household full of tension, arguments, threats. . .in short:

Things could've gotten pretty damn bad in that house anyways no matter what. Poor kid was screwed from the beginning.

Poor James! :unhappy: :bawling:

Sawyer has to know and understand that his parents are just as culpable for the mess that occured, but i'm not sure he could deal with or handle that. But i think that is part of what he needs to understand in order to get better emotionally. But it sure would rough to deal with that's for sure.

I totally agree with that. And the irony is, most likely he's rationalized it that any woman who's willing to cheat on her husband and convince him to part with his money probably deserves getting scammed. :(

I totally agree with that. And the irony is, most likely he's rationalized it that any woman who's willing to cheat on her husband and convince him to part with his money probably deserves getting scammed. :(

ITA, Sawyer does have his dark side, his regrets and a load of guilt, but there is a part of him that likes what he does and is a bit proud of his ability to con these silly, rich woman, take the money and walk away. He knows, from experience, the mess, the pain and the violence his actions could create, but he does it anyway. He does the very thing that tore his young life apart and he has been doing it for a long time. The self destructive path he is on is one he chose.

His lack of respect for women has hit a wall though -- Kate. He likes her, he respects her abilities, and, to a certain degree, he trusts her. She can see through his crap, so he can't con her. He is going to have to step up to the plate and get real if he wants her. She told him "no girl is just like me". He is going to have to drop the BS act and expose himself (and his feelings) to someone for the first time in his life. He is going to have to trust her not to hurt him. She is probably not going to settle for anything less. Let's face it, LOVE is the only four letter word Sawyer is unfamiliar with!

Wow, guess I have some catchin up to do. Been a busy weekend in here...

I think Kate has probably encountered men like Sawyer while on the run, so she knows what to expect from him. I think at the beginning, she did put him in a box, like everyone else did. She didn't think he was better than what he showed. Reading that letter in CM gave her the first glimpse into James. She gets Sawyer better than anyone else does or will, but James doesn't come out often. I'm not sure if Sawyer even knows who James is, cause he has been Sawyer for so long. I don't think James scares her. She knows that is who he is, and I don't think he will ever judge her no matter if he's good deep down. Sawyer has been the one, that has never judged Kate and I don't think becoming James will change that

Luanne, I think your so right. Especially in the beginning you could tell that Kate wanted to write Sawyer off as a jerk and nothing more. But then he went and started mingling in the group and once or twice even did some nice things for people. And she realized that he wouldnt be that easy to pin.

And like you said, I doubt Sawyer is consciously aware of James. When people call him James he gets irritant. And my guess is probably because Sawyer sees James as weak. That weak little boy who wasnt able to stop his fathers murder/suicide. The weak little boy who hid under his bead till it was all said and done. The weak little boy who couldnt prevent the real Sawyer from scamming his family and ruining them. And for the record, I dont think he was weak at all. But in Sawyers mind, I think he doesnt care for James very much. And the persona Sawyer has taken on, has allowed him to put the past behind him in a way. You can never fully escape the past, but I imagine everytime someone calls him James, hes yanked suddenly, yet again out of his imaginary world where he has the control.

Thats not something that will be easy to give up. So much time has passed since he took on the 'Sawyer' name, that it most likely has been ingrained in him that he is Sawyer now. James in his mind, is no more.

Which will make his captivity with the others very interesting because I think they are gonna be calling him James and hes definately not gonna like that.

Lisa, Thank you for the Outlaws excerpt.:kiss: That is so sad indeed and makes the scene even more tragic that the final moments he saw his mother, she was running around frantic and scared. Can you imagine what that little boy was thinking when he saw his father enter the room after hearing the gun shot and probably the thud of his mothers body? Even if his dad wasnt gonna kill him, it sure as hell looked like it, and Im sure James thought he would. Which is probably yet another reason why Sawyer hates James cause he didnt let his dad kill him. :(:(:(

ITA, Sawyer does have his dark side, his regrets and a load of guilt, but there is a part of him that likes what he does and is a bit proud of his ability to con these silly, rich woman, take the money and walk away. He knows, from experience, the mess, the pain and the violence his actions could create, but he does it anyway. He does the very thing that tore his young life apart and he has been doing it for a long time. The self destructive path he is on is one he chose.

His lack of respect for women has hit a wall though -- Kate. He likes her, he respects her abilities, and, to a certain degree, he trusts her. She can see through his crap, so he can't con her. He is going to have to step up to the plate and get real if he wants her. She told him "no girl is just like me". He is going to have to drop the BS act and expose himself (and his feelings) to someone for the first time in his life. He is going to have to trust her not to hurt him. She is probably not going to settle for anything less. Let's face it, LOVE is the only four letter word Sawyer is unfamiliar with!

Very well said losttv.:) I think Sawyer gets some thrill out of being this different man too. Cause hey, for James, Im sure anything is better than reality. And Kate totally is a brick wall for him. He cant go back to the old standby routine with her. She wont put up with it. Im convinced that if anything is to happen with Skate hes gonna have to put his cards down on the table. I agree that Kate wont settle for anything less with him. He cant trick her. And that is probably the scariest thing of all because the minute Sawyer opens up to Kate (something he most likely hasnt done ever in his life with any other woman without trying to con them,) he makes himself vulnerable (Something Im sure he is terrified of.) And if she reacts the wrong way, he could close up again. All or nothing, and if he puts them down and is rejected, theres alot more to lose then just not getting the girl.

Wow, guess I have some catchin up to do. Been a busy weekend in here...



Luanne, I think your so right. Especially in the beginning you could tell that Kate wanted to write Sawyer off as a jerk and nothing more. But then he went and started mingling in the group and once or twice even did some nice things for people. And she realized that he wouldnt be that easy to pin.

And like you said, I doubt Sawyer is consciously aware of James. When people call him James he gets irritant. And my guess is probably because Sawyer sees James as weak. That weak little boy who wasnt able to stop his fathers murder/suicide. The weak little boy who hid under his bead till it was all said and done. The weak little boy who couldnt prevent the real Sawyer from scamming his family and ruining them. And for the record, I dont think he was weak at all. But in Sawyers mind, I think he doesnt care for James very much. And the persona Sawyer has taken on, has allowed him to put the past behind him in a way. You can never fully escape the past, but I imagine everytime someone calls him James, hes yanked suddenly, yet again out of his imaginary world where he has the control.

Thats not something that will be easy to give up. So much time has passed since he took on the 'Sawyer' name, that it most likely has been ingrained in him that he is Sawyer now. James in his mind, is no more.

Which will make his captivity with the others very interesting because I think they are gonna be calling him James and hes definately not gonna like that.[/quote]

Kind of makes the similarities between Jack and Sawyer even more eerie, doesn't it?

Both men fear losing control of the few things in life they felt they could control, and that's allowing someone too close, and being a victim again...being left to feel powerless.


Very well said losttv.:) I think Sawyer gets some thrill out of being this different man too. Cause hey, for James, Im sure anything is better than reality. And Kate totally is a brick wall for him. He cant go back to the old standby routine with her. She wont put up with it. Im convinced that if anything is to happen with Skate hes gonna have to put his cards down on the table. I agree that Kate wont settle for anything less with him. He cant trick her. And that is probably the scariest thing of all because the minute Sawyer opens up to Kate (something he most likely hasnt done ever in his life with any other woman without trying to con them,) he makes himself vulnerable (Something Im sure he is terrified of.) And if she reacts the wrong way, he could close up again. All or nothing, and if he puts them down and is rejected, theres alot more to lose then just not getting the girl.

Say that. However, I think James (I'm getting more comfortable with that) is already vunerable to Kate and vice versa. They've infected each other...poor saps. :laughing:

And like you said, I doubt Sawyer is consciously aware of James. When people call him James, he gets irritant. And my guess is probably because Sawyer sees James as weak. That weak little boy who wasnt able to stop his fathers murder/suicide. The weak little boy who hid under his bed till it was all said and done. The weak little boy who couldnt prevent the real Sawyer from scamming his family and ruining them. And for the record, I dont think he was weak at all. But in Sawyer's mind, I think he doesnt care for James very much. And the persona Sawyer has taken on has allowed him to put the past behind him, in a way. You can never fully escape the past, but I imagine everytime someone calls him James, he's yanked suddenly, yet again out of his imaginary world where he has the control.

Thats not something that will be easy to give up. So much time has passed since he took on the 'Sawyer' name, that it most likely has been ingrained in him that he is Sawyer now. James, in his mind, is no more.

Which will make his captivity with the others very interesting because I think they are gonna be calling him James and he's definitely not gonna like that.

STH :hug: girlspy!!

This is exactly the take I've had on James! It is sooooo good to see someone else shares it! :clapping:

Of course, James has never left him. And facing that is gonna drive him crazy. But he'll get over that--with Kate's help! :biggrin:

Kind of makes the similarities between Jack and Sawyer even more eerie, doesn't it?

Both men fear losing control of the few things in life they felt they could control, and that's allowing someone too close, and being a victim again...being left to feel powerless.

Say that. However, I think James (I'm getting more comfortable with that) is already vunerable to Kate and vice versa. They've infected each other...poor saps. :laughing:

LOL, Totally Darbi. Poor saps indeed. They never had a chance. ;)
I was just thinking to, that the paralells between Jack and Sawyer could be cemented together by Christian. Cause Christian had that perfectionist must always be in control attitude, yet when he was down like Sawyer, he admitted, to Sawyer infact, that he was weak. The very thing I think Sawyer fears of his true self. So yeah, they have alot of similarities.

This is exactly the take I've had on James! It is sooooo good to see someone else shares it!

Of course, James has never left him. And facing that is gonna drive him crazy. But he'll get over that--with Kate's help!

Aww, rightbackatcha STH. :hug:. Yep, I dont think smooth sailing is on the horizon for James/Sawyer anytime soon. And I definately think Kate is the catapult that can get him launched off again. He needs a reason to want to be James and to not hate himself. And I think she could definately help him with that. ;)

One of the things I :heart: about Lisa's fan fic is that in "Battlefield Revisited," James has ALWAYS been James; yet he grew up to be a lot like "Sawyer," too! Maybe the real-time James would've had a lot of these qualities even if the murder/suicide tragedy had never happened. WE don't know how he'd have turned out if his parents had lived; that the Ford household was a troubled one, anyway, we have deduced. So maybe he'd have grown into this clever, scheming guy--but without the con man career!

Speaking of which, I don't believe you've ever mentioned EXACTLY what it is the "BR" Kate did, Lisa. This will be revealed? Or has it been, and I just missed it? Please to help in this?

LOL, Totally Darbi. Poor saps indeed. They never had a chance. ;)
I was just thinking to, that the paralells between Jack and Sawyer could be cemented together by Christian. Cause Christian had that perfectionist must always be in control attitude, yet when he was down like Sawyer, he admitted, to Sawyer infact, that he was weak. The very thing I think Sawyer fears of his true self. So yeah, they have alot of similarities.

And just think, Christians ill-timed advice once again had a profound, devastating effect on a man very similar to his own son.

For someone dead from the word go, he sure has had an chaotic effect on a lot of folks.

Wow, so much to catch up on from over the weekend!

I really can't remeber who originally posted it, but they mentioned something about in the original script for CM Sawyer mentioned that, after his parents death, he was in the care of his uncle and aunt, then he went into foster care.

Now, ever since I got the first half of the season one DVD (in england they sell them in two halves for osme reason) in the special features there were these audition tapes, and in Josh Holloway's one, one of the lines he speaks is somehitng about living with his Uncle who was a con man and his aunto who "sat around on her fat a** all day." He goes on to talk aout the scams and cons that they pulled together. Now, like many things from the original outlook of the show have changed, but I've always thought that this could be quite likely. Someone obviously taught sawyer to con people, like he taught cassidy in TLC, and it could be plauisble that he was taught to con at quite a young age. Although he tells kate the fitrst time he conned a woman was at 19 in CM, we don't know that he hadn't pulled more petty cons before that, even got roped in on helping his uncle. I also get the impression, even more now since someone posted the extra scene of sawyer saying that his Uncle told him about the real sawyer at his mother's funeral, that this hatred and blame of the real sawyer was nurtured in him, not hjust by his own truma, but encouraged, maybe by his Uncle.
I also thought that maybe Gordy, his partner from TLC could maybe be his Uncle. He kind of looked the right age, and he called him 'James' which I thought was interestihng as in sawyer's flashback's, no one calls his james (apart from his Mom in Outlaws).

I definetly agree that sawyer blames too much on the real sawyer. His Mom is to blame for cheating in the first place, and his dad even more so for deciding to orphan his poor boy. yet we have never seen sawyer express any agnger towards them, almost as if he has channeled it all into the real sawyer. He refuses to consider the possibility that it was a tragic culmination of events that led to what his father did, not as simple as the con that was pulled. I think that anyone hearing about it from the outisde would realise that his parents are to blame as well, and I think that Kate realises this, and I hope may eventually be able to help him confront this issue, becaise I don't believe that he ever can move on, until he realises that his parents are partly to blame.

I think that is the main reason I want sawyer and Kate together. I love Sawyer, I always have. Confindence Man and Outlwas broke my heart, finding out what had happened to him. Unless you've been through anything similar you can't even comprehend what they have gone through. I think the only person on that island who could ever help him is Kate. She sees a side of him no one else does, and it makes him realise that maybe, just maybe he is capable of change. If she chooses Jack, I am afraid that any relationship between the two of them, even friendship wont work, because sawyer obviously has deep feelings fr kate, and wont react well at all to her rejecting him, even though he thinks he's a;ready lost her, it will be compleately different for him to see kate and jack together, rather than just speculating. It makes me worry that he will retreat even further back into his 'sawyer' personality.

If the writers have any sense they will make her choose sawyer. They have so much exicting writing potential, trying to struggle and overcome their pasts as well as attempt to have a healthy relationship whilst they are both so emtuionally acrewed. I don't see how jack can help kate in any capacity or vise versa. What god qualities do they bring out in each other that no one else does. All I can see are bad ones.

Again, this seems to have turned into a bit of a rant, so I'm gonna leave for now lol! Sorry for the typos as well, me and my partner are moving in a few weeks and he has decided to dismantle our comp desk and now I our comp is set up on a chair and I am sitting on the floor typing on my lap lol, which isn't easy!!!

There is no Jater board where you will find anybody who seriously denies that Kate in fact has strong feelings for Sawyer. She doubtlessly was extremly scared as Sawyer was suffering from that fever. I am all with you expecting that Sawyer will cope much better with the captivity than Jack. The others seem to like psychological games the experienced con-men might be an equal opponent in. Sawyer is at least as good in this stuff as Fenry! So I can see the possibility that James is the hero! Then we will see if Kate really wants the hero.
By the way I saw you are speculating about season three without spoiler tags. So I guss they are not required here?

The above was all speculation about season three based on what happened in season two: no spoilers there, just theories! But if we are discussing something regarding spoilers that have been read: it's my understanding that those need spoiler tags. Which is why when i was talking about LTDA i didn't use the tag but when i went into more depth re: the spoiler that had pushed my that way... Well, sometimes there is a thin line here. If you feel that it warrants the tags put them there, otherwise i imagine a mod will delete or do it for you. That's how i understand it, but i am still a newbie here.

Another thing: I bet that JACK would never have seen the black horse! :no2:

Well, he did see his father...

But what I don't understand is when there's a child involved, how can a mother continue on & expose that child to seeing that abuse & perhaps endangering their lives too? Surely the child's safety and wellbeing should come first.
On top of all that, Diane turned Kate in & seemed to hate her for killing Wayne - I can understand her hating that Kate resorted to that i.e. the act of killing, but to actually hate her own child for it is another thing I don't understand. On top of that, Kate may even have suffered abuse herself - I can totally understand the feeling that would give rise to wanting to kill someone for that and if this was the case, my heart goes out to Kate for feeling that she had to go through it & do the job herself. I think we need to learn a lot more about Kate's past life, we really don't know a huge amount about her life growing up, just the bare outline of it.

i think there's a very good chance that Kate was abused, judging by the tape. Kate earnestly wanted to run away at a young age.

But re: Kate's mother... i've always had the impression that she was not exactly coherent when she called for help. It seems to me that she was in too much pain or too drugged to think straight. Another thought is why would her mother actually need that type of test for cancer? What if her mother had brain cancer? i would definitely agree that terror seemed to be the underlying emotion here and had never considered that Kate had been sexually abused (sad, as i'm a SVU fan). And personally, as a victim of emotional (and a smattering of physical) abuse: i never ever thought that i deserved it or was worthless. i do struggle somewhat with self confidence though, which i'm afraid that i overcompensate for. i do know that my mother used to think that if she was good enough it would stop but of course it never has. The funny thing is that as far as i know i am the only one he has ever physically abused and he never decided to beat me, just treated me rough, slapped me, kicked me once. He mostly throws/breaks things. i can understand why Kate would want her father dead and her old life destroyed, though i would never murder anyone myself: i'm not that desperate.

btw, which ep is it where Kate blows up the house? i think i only saw it once.

re: the tickets
i'm pretty sure Sun's father paid for their flight to LA because Jin was technically on business
Eko i have never considered not being on the plane... wasn't he in the water? he sure was serious about keeping the children safe. i need to see TO48D again.
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Say that. However, I think James (I'm getting more comfortable with that) is already vunerable to Kate and vice versa. They've infected each other...poor saps. :laughing:

So am i, and i guess this makes us... Jaters! :roflmao:
Everyone else is Jat'rs. :biggrin:

I love everyones stuff today :biggrin: such great discussion going on here..

Raven i love your rants don't ever stop... i do know from what i've heard about Conmen is that they are usually trained a young age to do it. The skills needed have to be taught like anything else and you have to start them young. Kids are sometimes used in cons to get more credibitlity as well. So it's very possible that someone used ihim n that capacity and taught him the ropes while he was still young, angry and misguided. A traumatized child such as himself would've been a perfect mark for someone like that who needed an apprentice of sorts.

As far as Gordy i noticed that too, not only did he call him James but seemed to have some air of authority over him and used a form of emotional blackmail when Sawyer tried to back out. What gets me is when he said something to the effect of 'it's just your damn horomones" to describe Sawyers feelings for Cassidy, which is a funny way to talk to an adult. The interaction there was very strange to me. I wonder if theres more to that, esp seein as how he told him 'you owe me'. Just speculation there.

I think the idea that Sawyer does to a degree enjoy doing that to some of these people, esp the women, is very plausible, he dosen't have a very high opinion of them, and that probably started with his own mother's adultery. He dosen't see them as being very loyal, and dosen't really trust their intentions. His job allowed him to see the worst in them, never seeing any good examples of loyalty and love. Just deciet. And he probably was of the idaa that those women were using him just as much as he used them, it wasn't until he saw that kid that it really affected him what he was doing. It became real then.

As far as Kate goes there was a possibility of abuse but unless she admits it in any way i'll just have to go by her word. But she certainly shows the traits including a propensity to manipulate men to get what she wants from them. Using whatever means possible. Women who are abused in that way sometimes learn how to be manipulative in order to regain some control. That's not to say that she was abused, she says she wasn't and we'll have to go with that but let's just say i wouldn't be surprised.

They are a perfect match of eachother arent' they? It's amazing realy..

Muchacha i'm sorry that happend in your family that's awful, it sorta gives you a unique perspective on this i guess..

i'm pretty sure Sun's father paid for their flight to LA because Jin was technically on business
Eko i have never considered not being on the plane... wasn't he in the water? he sure was serious about keeping the children safe. i need to see TO48D again.

i forgot about that.. thanks for reminding, *adds to mental list*

i can understand why Kate would want her father dead and her old life destroyed, though i would never murder anyone myself: i'm not that desperate.

I agree with the above Muchacha, hope you didn't think I'd murder someone!! Agree with Fricks too in that you must have a unique insight as the victim of a certain degree of abuse, sorry to hear you had any of that to deal with, it couldn't have been easy & I can't say that I know those feelings which you must have experienced - only horror that anyone has to experience them at all, whatever the degree of the abuse involved.


btw, which ep is it where Kate blows up the house? i think i only saw it once.

The episode is WKD.
100%

Raven i love your rants don't ever stop... i do know from what i've heard about Conmen is that they are usually trained a young age to do it. The skills needed have to be taught like anything else and you have to start them young. Kids are sometimes used in cons to get more credibitlity as well. So it's very possible that someone used ihim n that capacity and taught him the ropes while he was still young, angry and misguided. A traumatized child such as himself would've been a perfect mark for someone like that who needed an apprentice of sorts.

As far as Gordy i noticed that too, not only did he call him James but seemed to have some air of authority over him and used a form of emotional blackmail when Sawyer tried to back out. What gets me is when he said something to the effect of 'it's just your damn horomones" to describe Sawyers feelings for Cassidy, which is a funny way to talk to an adult. The interaction there was very strange to me. I wonder if theres more to that, esp seein as how he told him 'you owe me'. Just speculation there.


:shesaid: Fricksgurl - you're great for remembering the details! I think I need to rewatch some episodes. You're right that Sawyer/James must have learnt the tricks of a conman from someone else at a young age and you very well may be right (and Ravenmoon and was it ?Lisa too) that Gordy is connected to Sawyer and is perhaps a relative such as his uncle. I think James was too young at the age of 8 when his parents died to really understand all that happened, somebody must have talked to him about it & maybe was responsible for giving him an even more warped view of the reality of what did happen.
It will be interesting to see if any more is revealed about Gordy and who he is exactly ;)

Loved your 'ranting' too Ravenmoon by the way!!

Okay everybody, I made a new video and this one killed me to make it...it's basically Sawyer's feelings IF, and its a big IF that I really don't think is happening, but on the far off chance that our dear Kate does not make the only plausible choice she can make and Sawyer's current fears are confirmed. I'm still crying and I just finished it.

Of course it's alwasy healthy to have a good cry, isn't it.

Here you go...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnhO1PtivtI

Huggs everyone,
See you tomorrow,
Lisa ;)

Hi Lisa,

I've been so emotionally drained lately that haven't exercised my brain enough more than to vote in those help/hurt elimination games. (Is there an emoticon sowing your eyes rolling far back into your head?)

I finally watched this video and as always the match of scenes you use convey a powerful emotion. There's a lot in Sawyer's head tormenting him. A scene that this vid brings to mind is when Jack was changing the bandages on Sawyer's arm. Sawyer mouths off as usual, and Jack made a comment that he was there because no one else wanted to be around him. That cut deep. Remember the look on Sawyer's face? (But how glorious was it when he responded with, "She does." That got a reaction didn't it? But Sawyer's pained expression came right back.

The cat that my husband & I got just after we married twenty years ago is about to die. She's actually a week from turning twenty herself, but she's not going to make it. (My oldest human child, btw, is sixteen.) A few days ago she somehow lost the ability to drink. Her nose keeps going down in the water. It kills me to see her try. I hold water in my hand up to her mouth and she sucks some water into her mouth that way. She's shaky and her eyes are starting to look different. You said above that it's always healthy to have a good cry, so when I read that, I wanted to share - maybe I'm just looking for sympathy or comfort or something. I'm afraid I might sound a tad ridiculous or pathetic about it all, but I still wanted to put it here. As a kitten she used to slide around under the sheets on her belly. My husband named her Slug! Cute name, huh?!

The cat that my husband & I got just after we married twenty years ago is about to die. She's actually a week from turning twenty herself, but she's not going to make it. (My oldest human child, btw, is sixteen.) A few days ago she somehow lost the ability to drink. Her nose keeps going down in the water. It kills me to see her try. I hold water in my hand up to her mouth and she sucks some water into her mouth that way. She's shaky and her eyes are starting to look different. You said above that it's always healthy to have a good cry, so when I read that, I wanted to share - maybe I'm just looking for sympathy or comfort or something. I'm afraid I might sound a tad ridiculous or pathetic about it all, but I still wanted to put it here. As a kitten she used to slide around under the sheets on her belly. My husband named her Slug! Cute name, huh?!

Oh sweetie, that is exactly how we lost our Patches, exactly and it breaks your heart. We dropped water in her mouth for two days and finally had to face the hard fact that our final act of love would be to have her put to sleep. We were holding her when she passed away. I have tears in my eyes writing this but I had to tell you that there are many of us out here who know what you are feeling and feel for you. My heart goes out to you, your husband and your little Slug.

Jomamaah i had a cat that died recently that was 19 and that was terrible for me.. so i understand perfectly. His sister died 2 years at 17 and displayed the same symptoms yours did. That was rough on me so i understand :frown:

And i did see that look, and alot of his other looks when he thinks no one is paying attention.. it is brutal to watch sometimes ain't it? He can be a very lonely person on occasion..

Interesting indeed. May help explain a great deal of the animosity between the two men.

Speaking of euthanizing, does anyone recall if Libby woke up before Jack injected her with the heroin, or did she wake up because of it?

Yes, Darbi, she was just starting to talk a little when Jack gave her the meds. He was almost too late, she was just about dead but she did have time to say "Michael" they just didn't know what she was trying to say.

Agreeance, fricks. Just reflecting that maybe Mr. Ford would never have gone to such lengths if Mr. Sawyer hadn't shown up. Still, James would've then kept growing up in a household full of tension, arguments, threats. . .in short:

Poor James! :unhappy: :bawling:

See STH, I beleive that there were serious problems in that family before the original Sawyer ever showed up. He was only a small part of something that was already seriously flawed. I think that this was by no means this was the first time James' father had gone off. I think she already knew what he was capable of, though by no means to the extent that he'd come to this time. I think the thought of being cheated by the original Sawyer made it that much worse, but definately there were flaws before it came to this.

Speaking of which, I don't believe you've ever mentioned EXACTLY what it is the "BR" Kate did, Lisa. This will be revealed? Or has it been, and I just missed it? Please to help in this?

Whoa, STH, I'm impressed...Actually I never really said what she did but in Chapter 4 I have her flashing back to being a prostitute in Chicago and the madam knowing that she was wanted...and in Chapter 17 the note from Gordy mentions her hanging for murder. I had to go back and look it up to tell you.

I never really planned for James and Sawyer to behave differently, I just called him James in the story and Sawyer during the part on the island, simply for clarification.

I've been giving some thought to losttvfan's mention of Sawyer disrespect of women. I think is this very important and something to be discussed. He's looking at the whole thing that happened with his family in the way a child would see it. He can't seem to understand that hi parents are dead because of their own choices. He seems to think that this man Sawyer is responsible and he's not.

Our dear Sawyer disrepects and uses these women in such a way that is the only way he has to get back at his mother for what she did. We have to remember than in his mind he's still that 8 year old scared little boy, so what did he do? He ran toward the one thing that would make him feel closest to her memory and that was to do exactly what caused her to die. Her dying was the most significant thing in his young life and when he cons these women he's unconciously reliving that exact thing over and over and, consequently, he hasn't lost touch with her. He cannot bring himself to get over it and move on. If he didn't he wouldn't still have the letter after 20 years. If he could he wouldn't have hunted down and killed the wrong man.

At least that's how I see it...

Huggs everyone,
Lisa ;)

Joemamah, you are in my prayers, my dear. I know how you must feel and yes it is healthy to have a good cry. I believe I can speak for all of us, when I say that we care about you very much and I wish there was something I could do. I'm so sorry for your loss but remember that you and your husband gave he a lot of love and a wonderful life and that was very special. And my dear, I happen to believe that we will see our pets again. My prayers and wishes and hugs are with you.

joemamaah, I feel so with you! It is a couple of years ago I lost my beloved cat and it still hurts.:hug: Perhaps it may help a little to know you are not alone. There are fellows who know what you feel and feel with you.
Regarding Sawyer´s parents I don´t think they had big problems. IMO it was quite banal: The busy husband didn´t give his wife the feeling of being his star any more. The dissatisfied woman easily fell for a smart guy like Sawyer giving her the feeling she was very special. She never even considered to leave her husband for him. So tragical because so unnessesary what James´father did!
I don´t know whether it is the right place here but I feel the need to mention that Sawyer rescued Cassidy´s life by finishing the con. The threat was serious! My impression is James really loved her though not wanting to.

Obscure thought:

I was reading a comment over on TwoP concerning Sawyer and how his fb's always follow Charlies...but mostly how the events of Charlie's episodes have been set-ups to Sawyer's.

That got me to thinking...there really has been a lot of comparisons I completely missed.

'The Moth'...I suppose there's a parallel between the two men. Both were feeling over looked, disregarded, useless. Although Charlie was fiending for a fix, he still helped in getting Jack out of that cave in. Everyone doubted Charlie was capable of being more than a screw up until he did helped Jack to get out. Even then, he was still pretty much overlooked.

Sawyer, in comparison he tried to be helpful in telling Kate about Jack, but was doubted and scoffed at by her and Sayid. Hurt, but unwilling to show it, Sawyer goes along on the signal triangular excursion. They, in turn get caught in a figurative "cave in" conversationally until Sawyer slips (?) telling Kate about Jack's predicament...thus causing the cave in . Of course, this isn't before he throws her earlier words back in her face about being pitied.

'CM' follows and in comparison to the dark context of Sawyer's fb and his on island experience, there's Charlie and Claire, the great "peanut butter" scene, and Charlie making a deal with Claire to move to the caves for her protection. Sawyer makes a "deal" as well, bribing Kate out of a kiss. Later, both women are given a chance to see these men in a different light. It's also where their relationships begin to take on a new shape for the better.

'Homecoming' is followed by 'Outlaws' (greatness) and again, the parallel is eerily similar. Both men are dealing with the emotional implications of killing a man. They both receive timely advice that helps them to process their guilt or whatever feelings they had over their actions. Also, both Claire and Kate offer up their help. Claire is pretty much shut out. Kate, begrudingly is allowed in, but she ended up giving up more than what she bargained for.

This season, 'TLC' follows 'F + W'...Charlie's...breakdown, I guess over Aaron, his obsession with him being baptized...freaking out the whole camp. Getting punched by Locke whose trust he'd lost. His relationship with Claire cut off...the heroin, although he's not using, is laying claim to him again.

This sets up 'TLC' nicely as the two men become co-conspirators in a need for revenge, to take back some power by those whom everyone else defers to. Bring them down a notch or two...show that they are just as fallible as anyone else.

The comment over on TwoP mentioned that these two have went from pairing up to quiet a wailing newborn to fake kidnapping a pregnant woman a few weeks later. How sad.

Just some thoughts.

Such interesting thoughts. And you have my sympathy for kitty too. I've had to put down a couple of elderly cats recently and I thought I would collapse from grief.

Wow Darbi i noticed their flashbacks always follow eachother, but i never realized the parrallels before, simply amazing really. And those 2 really don't like eachother either.

I found it intersting in a weird sort of way Sawyer has sort of protected Charlie in a sense. I mean people probably supsect he(Sawyer) may have had involvement in what happen to Sun, i'm pretty sure Kate supsects that, cause Sawyer never answered her really when she asked whether he had anything to do with it. No confirmation, but no denial either, just asked a quesion instead of answering her. But no one supsects Charlie at all. In fact he's come back to the group a bit. More socially accepted than Sawyer. It's almost as if Sawyer really wants the hate ALL on him. What am i talking about, of course he does...:frown:

Wow Darbi i noticed their flashbacks always follow eachother, but i never realized the parrallels before, simply amazing really. And those 2 really don't like eachother either.

I found it intersting in a weird sort of way Sawyer has sort of protected Charlie in a sense. I mean people probably supsect he(Sawyer) may have had involvement in what happen to Sun, i'm pretty sure Kate supsects that, cause Sawyer never answered her really when she asked whether he had anything to do with it. No confirmation, but no denial either, just asked a quesion instead of answering her. But no one supsects Charlie at all. In fact he's come back to the group a bit. More socially accepted than Sawyer. It's almost as if Sawyer really wants the hate ALL on him. What am i talking about, of course he does...:frown:

Which is so sad. What are you trying to cover up with all that deflected hate, Sawyer? :shakehead:

He hates what he's become, thus he hates himself, and wants everyone else to hate him, too. Heck, even the women he romanced in his con end up hating him! (I suspect that his knowing that made the con easier--he was simply doing what he had to do, whether he was enjoying it at the time or not--because the end result, being hated, was what he really wanted.)

Kate's really thrown a monkey wrench into his cycle of behavior. At the end of TLC, his line to her, "Guess I'm lucky that you don't hate me," has several levels. On the one hand, his "Sawyer" persona was taunting her, trying to get her to hate him as he tries to get everyone to hate him. Yet you could sense that he was hoping against hope that she WOULDN'T hate him. This must have boggled his mind. Still, as it turned out in the following episodes, Kate did not choose to hate him (though she hated his actions, and that he'd chosen NOT to be liked when, after the raft business, he was in a position to start over, and BE liked). And he clearly enjoyed her company, and was glad she didn't hate him!

She's turning his life inside out, and he's loving it, even as he's fighting it! :thumbsup:

We'd gotten a hint of this in Season 1, with "Confidence Man." Getting her to kiss him for the inhalers (that he DIDN'T have!) was a con; the kiss represented his getting the best of her, and maybe even getting her to hate him. But by the time she gave in, and leaned in for the kiss--that hurting, desperate, pleading look on his face spoke volumes! He hadn't gotten the upper hand, after all! He wanted that kiss; he wanted HER! And at that moment, he was vulnerable enough to not care that she saw his :heart: on his sleeve--or his face, in this case!

How he's going to handle being her choice for romance--if, indeed, he is--is going to be as conflicted as his dealing with wanting her and wanting to keep her at arms' length has always been! This is gonna be quite a season, methinks!

Although my question was rhetorical...wow, I can't help but to appreciate the passion and conviction in your response. :clap: Whew!