The first fight between Ethan and Jack didn't happen.* It was only in Jack's mind.* If you remember what happened Jack went up the hill with Kate,*He slipped and fell all the way down and landed with a thud Unconscious, then he has the whole fight sequence with Ethan.*

When he wakes, He asks Kate how long have I been out,* she says a few minutes, then Jack says Ethan was here.* Kate shows her disbelief as well as saying,EVEN IF HE WERE HERE the rain has washed away the tracks.* She was right along side him at the top of the hill and never saw anything.* That is why Jack can beat Ethan in the second fight because it really happens.*

Ethan seems to have super strength in the dream but he doesn't exhibit it in real action.*I think either the Island or THE OTHERS have a way of putting things in people's minds, but only one person at a time.* *I think every time we see Ethan as deranged it is a manipulation.* With Jack when he was alone and then with Charlie after he supposedly knocks Jin Unconscious.

*I also don't buy the Ethan came from the sea beat Scott to dead breaking all his bones with no one hearing anything scenario.*

We also assume Ethan hung Charlie.* I don't buy that either.* How did he hang Charlie from that high on a tree and also hang onto Claire at the same time.* We assume this because of the fight with Jack.

Something happened and Charlie killed him to keep him quiet.

I believe I have some proof for this theory, at least the non fight theory.
Check these screen caps out.* The first one is immediately following the fight.* *The 2nd one is Kate reaching Jack after he falls down the hill.
http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimagepopup&pid=22368&fullsize=1

http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimagepopup&pid=22346&fullsize=1

Pay close attention to the right side of his face in both pictures.

Some additional support for my theory:

What were Claire and Charlie doing during this fight? If Claire and her baby are the reason for all this then He (Ethan) would not do anything to hurt them. ie: knock her unconscious.

Jack wasn't out that long. He immediately runs to follow Ethan, Hears A scream(Claire's?) follows it and there is Charlie blind folded and hanging from the tree. Quite a feat. Unless he(Ethan) can fly.

Why blindfold CHARLIE, it wasn't neccessary, unless there was something THEY didn't want him to see.

Can someone tell me how to have this moved to the general theories section. I posted this prior to the splitting of the threads.

I believe the upcomming rerun is of the episode that this takes place. I'm just throwing this out there so we can take a second look.

The main problem I have with this theory is the dialogue and the follow-up scene. During the fight, Ethan says "Stop following me or I will have to kill one of them." Jack and Kate continue to follow and someone has tried to kill Charlie. I think that's too much of a concindence to have that continuity going from a hallucination (alleged) to a real scene. Also, we heard what we thought was a scream from Claire right before Jack and Kate started climbing the hill. Sounds like what she might do is right before she was gagged, if she was being bound and gagged to keep her on ice while Ethan was dealing with Jack. She screaming now because she knows that some of her friends are following her, Ethan has let her know this much, or the circumstances made it obvious to both of them.

This is based somewhat on my theory that he others have the ability, through RF/ELF/Microwave transmission to project images into the minds of the Lostaways. *Luv started a thread in spoiler theories that has discussed a lot of this. *I will provide a link as soon as I can. *Also of interested is the fact that Kate apparently didn't hear the scream for help only Jack did.

http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=8892.0

Can someone tell me how to have this moved to the general theories section. I posted this prior to the splitting of the threads.


The fastest way would be to PM a MOD. You can also use the "Report Post to Moderator" link which is added to each post but this might change if it becomes overused.

Or you can wait for a MOD to read your request within a topic which would be equivalent to finding a needle in a haystack ;D

I found the needle ;)

I've read Luv's theory and I agree with much of it, but I'm not sure how it applies to this scene. *Jack heard the scream, his comment was "Didn't you hear her" and Kate responded "Hear who?" Remember we were hearing screeches from birds (strange because we haven't seen any so far), and then what sounded like a scream, but not conclusively. *Kate may have thought that it was just the wildlife again, and it didn't seem like a person to her. *But also, if the others used a mind control device on Jack to get him to halluncinate the sound, why didn't it work on Kate? *You could say that Jack popped up in the jungle after the crash, and the rest were on the beach (except Kate, we don't know where she was), and he was implanted by the others before he caught up with the rest of the lostaways. *But what about Sayid and Sawyer, they both heard the whispers?

Personally, I think the fight was real and that Ethan set Jack up. *He goes around the hill and sets a "trap," so to speak, a vine that will give way when someone grabs it near the top of the rise, in a place where there's nothing else to grab. *Then he gets Claire to scream and then stashes her (tied up or whatever), goes back around the bottom of the hill and is waiting when Jack predictably comes rolling down the hill. *It wouldn't have mattered if it was Kate who had taken the fall, he could give the same message to her.

He could have knocked them both unconscience. Claire may have come to and seen Charlie hanging there and screamed.

The thing about the Ethan fight is he steps on Jack's shirt. You even see the muddy footprint. Up comes Kate....no footprint. His shirt is clean.

We will be watching this scene very closely during the re-run.

If you click on the links I provided you can also see that his face is not battered after the fight. There is a before and after screen cap.

Well another simple explanation is that they shot the scene several times and that the continuity is not a hundred percent accurate. It has been known to happen from time to time on TV shows.... :angel:

More evidence to this theory is Ethan's shirt is different in the fight scene but he is back to wearing his original shirt when he attacks Jin and Charlie and during his last stand.

I watched the episode again tonight and looking at the timing of Jack slipping to the bottom and Kate getting to him makes it all the more likely that this fight did not occur. When Jack asks how long have I been out Kate says a couple minutes. She sees and hears nothing. Jack is the only one who hears the scream.

I did notice this time that only Jack heard the scream, and it's not like it was a soft sound.* And since they were looking for someone, they'd be hypersensitive to any noises that were screamlike -- or I would think anyway.* So I agree, that was weird -- why didn't Kate hear the scream?* She heard the very subtle sound of water rushing in WTCMB, so she has good hearing.*

I'm not really sure that first sound was a scream. It seemed like a screeching birds or a machine or something. The second sound was a scream but in the begining it sounded strange as well and turned into a scream.

Whether it was real or not it just looked weird. If there were mistakes there were too many.

The thing is though, it was definitely audible. So you'd think Kate would say "oh that? It's a screeching monkey," or something -- but she didn't hear it at all.

I did'nt buy the theory that the fight had'nt really happened untill re-watching.
As mentioned, he was the only one that heard the scream.
But, after hitting his head notice his resting position, on his back and the surroundings.
Then think about the 'fight', ethan kicked and punched Jack all over the place yet when he delivered his last kick (or was it a punch) Jack landed in what appears to be the exact same position, on his back in what could easily be the same exact spot.
Plus the fact that the next encounter with Ethan he does'nt appear to be SO overpowering as he did in this episode.
I now fully buy into the theory that it never happened... for now anyway.
I also now believe that Charlie did indeed try to kill himself but thats another thread ;)

I wonder if it had to do with Ethan in reference to his father...accepting there are things that you can't control or that doing the right things sometimes ...hurts.

I don't know..just fishing around

That just reminded me of the scene in I think Jack's first flashback, where his friend was being beat up and he jumped into the fray.* Maybe Ethan is that bully, sort of.

And Ethan wanted Charlie to give him Claire -- kind of what Charlie was doing in order to buy his fix, in his flashback, betraying his boss's daughter.

I said it in another thread. I didn't notice it the first time but it seemed like Jack heard the scream right after a flashback from the hospital... like Sawyer heard his "voices" after we found out he killed someone. Jack didn't kill the girl in the hospital.... but he felt some responsibility.... just a thought.

I think one thing that is very telling is what Jack says after the alleged fight. He says:
JACK: Ethan was here.

KATE: You banged your head, Jack.

JACK: No, no. He was here.

KATE: You have to stop. The rain has washed away the trail. Even if he was
here, you've got -

(Jack walks past Kate and continues on.)

KATE: Jack!

JACK: (mutters) I'm not letting him do this.

KATE: (shouts) Not letting him?!

(She runs to catch up with him.)

JACK: Not again.

If you look at the whole sequence, during the flashbacks Jack is at the hospital watching his father console the husband. If you remember it is almost exactly what he had done with Jack earlier to get Jack to go along with his version of what happened during surgery. Somehow the Island/Others
are giving Jack the opportunity to right what he sees as a wrong. He then hears the scream that is meant to lead him(that is why Kate doesn't hear it) to Charlie so that he can save Charlie and succeed where he failed before.

I noticed last night while kate and jack were looking for c + c that they stopped for a minute and jack rubbed the leaf on a tree or bush for a couple of seconds. Maybe it was one of the same things that locke used to cause boone's hallucination and jack happedned upon it by accident, thus causing him to hear the scream and 'fight' with ethan

After seeing last nights' eppy, I think that fight sequence is probably a halluciantion. There's just something about it that seems off to me. But, it lead Jack to find Charlie, so it was meant to be.

Well, he did hallucinate his father (or at least, he was seeing something nobody else saw, so far as I could tell), and that led him to the water.* But are hallucinations generally so very helpful?* Maybe there's something else going on there.*

Well, he did hallucinate his father (or at least, he was seeing something nobody else saw, so far as I could tell), and that led him to the water. But are hallucinations generally so very helpful? Maybe there's something else going on there.



Well, ya know, it is the jungle of mystery, so maybe the island makes people hallucinate the helpful things. like Boone dealing with Shannon in a later episode. they have something they need to get off their chest, in a way--to right a wrong.

Also, I just noticed from rewatching the episode last night that there is an awful lot of evidence for the fight to be a hallucination. Or, maybe a better word for it is dream or vision, since Jack did hit his head and blacked out (maybe).

Well, ya know, it is the jungle of mystery, so maybe the island makes people hallucinate the helpful things.* like Boone dealing with Shannon in a later episode.* they have something they need to get off their chest, in a way--to right a wrong.

Also, I just noticed from rewatching the episode last night that there is an awful lot of evidence for the fight to be a hallucination.* Or, maybe* a better word for it is dream or vision, since Jack did hit his head and blacked out (maybe).


Exactly my point to this thread. It's a dream/vision from the Island/Other's. The flashback is related to what is happening at the time. Jack is remembering what happened during the surgery and his Father's manipulation afterwards. That is why Jack says he is not going to let him get away with it, not again.

Anything that took place without witnesses is under suspicion, for me anyway.*

I noticed last night while kate and jack were looking for c + c that they stopped for a minute and jack rubbed the leaf on a tree or bush for a couple of seconds.* Maybe it was one of the same things that locke used to cause boone's hallucination and jack happened upon it by accident, thus causing him to hear the scream and 'fight' with ethan

It's an interesting theory.

I noticed that he rubbed the leaf too.

Is there a real-life plant that secretes a hallucinogenic chemical that can be absorbed through the skin?

( I think Locke might have given Boone his mixture through a bloody scalp wound. But the skin on Jack's fingers wasn't broken. )

-----------

I didn't buy the theory that the fight hadn't really happened untill re-watching.
As mentioned, he was the only one that heard the scream.
But, after hitting his head notice his resting position, on his back and the surroundings.

I think he fell face-down the first time.* Then he landed on his back after the fight.

------------

More evidence to this theory is Ethan's shirt is different in the fight scene but he is back to wearing his original shirt when he attacks Jin and Charlie and during his last stand.

That might be a deliberate clue.* But I would have done it in reverse; it makes more sense for Jack to imagine Ethan wearing a shirt that he's seen before.

Besides, even on the island having more than one shirt is still normal.* :)

------------

Jack wasn't out that long.* He immediately runs to follow Ethan, Hears A scream(Claire's?) follows it and there is Charlie blind folded and hanging from the tree.* Quite a feat.* Unless he (Ethan) can fly.

I think that Ethan strung up Charlie long before he made the threat to Jack.

-----------


I think he fell face-down the first time. Then he landed on his back after the fight.

------------





Nope, I just re-watched it for the 3rd time. Jack falls, rolls around visibley disoriented, comes to rest on his back, looks up and see's Ethan (see pic http://www.lost-tv.com/pictures/displayimage.php?album=26&pos=154 ) , they fight, Jack ends up on his back again (see pic http://www.lost-tv.com/pictures/displayimage.php?album=26&pos=162 ) in what could very well be the same exact spot.

Nope, I just re-watched it for the 3rd time. Jack falls, rolls around visibly disoriented, comes to rest on his back, looks up and see's Ethan, they fight, Jack ends up on his back again in what could very well be the same exact spot.

That's what I saw too.* And it supports my point.*

Jack fell down the hill and hit face-first. If Jack was unconscious the whole time, that's how Kate would have found him.

But he was face-up when she found him.

Jack was not knocked unconscious by the fall (at least not immediately).* The fight was definitely not a dream.

If Ethan was not real, then he must have been a waking hallucination. The only way the "Only in his mind" theory works is if the face-first impact had a delayed reaction.* Jack hits his forehead.* He's dazed. He rolls over. He imagines Ethan.* Then he passes out.

I don't buy it.

I think it would be an unlikely coincidence for Jack's hallucination to match the place where his body actually ended up.* His mind would have had to choreograph the fight so that it ends with him landing in the right place.

I think he hit the ground face-down.* Then almost immediately he rolled over and really fought Ethan. (Jack might have lost consciousness for a few seconds before rolling over, though.) The fight ended with Jack getting knocked out.

You can move if you are unconscience...depending on how hard the injury. Its not always a 'you landed there you stay there' kind of thing. People have been known to thrash about....I'm NOT saying that's what happened here but its possible for Jack to have changed position or for the initial injury to not have knocked him out completely....with him having just enough presence of mind to turn over before he passed out.

I don't know if it was real or not...but the whole thing is just strange.

I didn't buy the theory that the fight hadn't really happened untill re-watching.
... think about the 'fight', ethan kicked and punched Jack all over the place yet when he delivered his last kick (or was it a punch) Jack landed in what appears to be the exact same position, on his back in what could easily be the same exact spot.

I think this is evidence *against* the fight being a hallucination as much as it could be evidence for it.

If I remember correctly, Boone acted out his hallucination.* Locke did not find Boone tied up when Boone's hallucination ended.* Although he had imagined Shannon, his escape from the ropes was real.

If the "Fight Wasn't Real" theory is based on Jack's exposure to the same chemical, then Jack probably would have been up and fighting with no one.* He would have been on his feet punching and kicking someone who wasn't there.* Then he'd have to collapse at the end in the right spot.

Plus the fact that the next encounter with Ethan he doesn't appear to be SO overpowering as he did in this episode. I was told that the fight scene was originally much longer and that, in the original version, several other people fought Ethan before Jack finally put him down. Supposedly, the scene was shortened for time, rather than because they wanted to show Ethan in a weaker condition than in the earlier fight.

I was told that the fight scene was originally much longer and that, in the original version, several other people fought Ethan before Jack finally put him down. Supposedly, the scene was shortened for time, rather than because they wanted to show Ethan in a weaker condition than in the earlier fight.




But then we have to ask...are deleted scenes considered 'cannon'? For all we know TPTHB WANTED there to be a discrepency between the two fights so they edited it that way.

I do agree that a good case can be made for either side.

I do agree that a good case can be made for either side.


There sure can.
One thing that would go along with FuryFanatics theory is that after Jack lands and tries to catch his bearings, we don't see blood pouring from his mouth but after the fight and before commercial we do. BUT thats the only additional mark. Ethan delivered 3 maybe 4 POWERFUL blows to his face plus the final kick also to his face.


I think this is evidence *against* the fight being a hallucination as much as it could be evidence for it.
agreed


If I remember correctly, Boone acted out his hallucination. Locke did not find Boone tied up when Boone's hallucination ended. Although he had imagined Shannon, his escape from the ropes was real.
If the "Fight Wasn't Real" theory is based on Jack's exposure to the same chemical, then Jack probably would have been up and fighting with no one. He would have been on his feet punching and kicking someone who wasn't there. Then he'd have to collapse at the end in the right spot.

I don't see why he would have to actually have been acting it out just because Boone did. He could have easily had the vision in his dream, especially if you want to entertain the idea that the hallucination is herbally induced.



I was told that the fight scene was originally much longer and that, in the original version, several other people fought Ethan before Jack finally put him down. Supposedly, the scene was shortened for time, rather than because they wanted to show Ethan in a weaker condition than in the earlier fight.
+

But then we have to ask...are deleted scenes considered 'cannon'? For all we know TPTHB WANTED there to be a discrepency between the two fights so they edited it that way.


exactly, and by what the show is showing me Ethan DEFINATLY seems weeker in the second fight, or at least not so freakishly powerful. There may have been more people but Ethan had nothing.


I still don't know though, the fight could have happened because I do remember Charlie, at one point in this next epy (WTCMB), mention something about how powerful Ethan is(just before they find him I think), but why did'nt he look at all powerful the second fight?
I don't get it. I'm still not 100% either way on this but I still think it never happened.

But then we have to ask...are deleted scenes considered 'cannon'?

I don't automatically consider the deleted parts to be canon. *If the DVD version of the episode uses the longer version, then I'll consider the longer version to be canon. *(Or maybe if some of the writers confirm that they at least *want* the DVD done that way.)

I am willing to consider non-canon "evidence" when interpreting a scene, though.

For all we know TPTHB WANTED there to be a discrepency between the two fights so they edited it that way.

Yes, that's true.

But didn't Damon Lindelof write that episode himself? *He's a co-creator and still onboard as an executive producer. *So there is a good chance that the scripted version would fit the mythology of the show. *I've heard that the scene was shortened because the long version would have crowded out parts of Charlie's flashbacks.

by what the show is showing me Ethan DEFINITELY seems weaker in the second fight, or at least not so freakishly powerful. There may have been more people but Ethan had nothing.

I compare the two fights in a different way. It wasn't that Ethan was different the second time.* It's that Jack was different.

Before the first fight, Jack whacked his forehead on the ground.* He was probably a little woozy even before Ethan started hitting him.

It seems pretty normal for Ethan to overwhelm Charlie.* He's smaller than Ethan and Jack.

A healthy Sawyer or Sayid might have kicked the crap out of Ethan on the day of the kidnapping.

ok,
what takes Kate so long to get down?
why did'nt she hear screams?
why does'nt his face look like it took 4 powerful blows?

what takes Kate so long to get down?

She was at the top of a big, slippery, muddy hill.

why didn't she hear screams?

I think Jack might have imagined them.


why doesn't his face look like it took 4 powerful blows?

That's a common thing on TV.* After a fight, TV characters rarely look like they've been in one.

Especially on an 8:00 show.

If you watch ALIAS, you'll probably see Sydney Bristow come out of a long fight looking like a model at a fashion shoot.* :)

She was at the top of a big, slippery, muddy hill.
So the trip down was longer than the trip up?


I think Jack might have imagined them.
I agree, because thats when I think the whole hallucination starts. I also think its related to Locke predicting the rain, the very next scene is this Ethan/Jack encounter in that rain. The same rain that has stopped by the time Kate finds him and even mentions that he must have been hallucinating. The whole Ethan thing only happened during the rain shower.
Also, if they're following Ethans trail how does he end up behind them? Why backtrack? Does'nt he have 2 people to tend to?
I can understanding blowing off the little details like Jacks bruises, but the more I watch the show the less I take anything for granted. So far there has been very little that has'nt meant something.

Does'nt he have 2 people to tend to?




we assume anyway

About the time it took Kate coming down the hill...

I would generally take more time going down a slope than going up IF I thought it was treacherous , and a slippery muddy hill would qualify for me to be extremely cautious in a descent. It's possible that kate got down earlier and fought Ethan but it was cut for time.

The bloodied face thing I put down to contiunity.

Still, it is an intriguing idea. If it was a hallucination then most likely the writers will bring this to play some time in the future.

About the time it took Kate coming down the hill...

I would generally take more time going down a slope than going up IF I thought it was treacherous , and a slippery muddy hill would qualify for me to be extremely cautious in a descent.
If you're just hiking sure, but if you're friend just took a header down the hill you would'nt put a lil fire under your butt? They got up the slippery hill fast enough.
But anyway, thats just assuming she took long to begin with, really we don't know if it was long at all. If you watch them climb up though it just seems like they did'nt get all too far up at all. At least not so far that she would'nt at least see or hear Ethan leave.

But I think the rain I think has me most intrigued.
Locke predicts it
next scene Kate and Jake walking in that rain
Jack hears the scream / Kate does'nt
Fall / Fight
Kate shows up, the sun is out, no rain anywhere.

It just seems too much to be nothing.
And I'm not buying that the creative team did'nt wait around for it to rain as was suggested in another thread. (or maybe another forum..regardless) If the scene calls for rain they make it rain. If the scene calls for no rain, they turn the valve.


It's possible that kate got down earlier and fought Ethan but it was cut for time.
I don't buy anything key like that being cut for time, if it was'nt conveyed in the show then its worthless imo. Thats how I see it anyway. ;)

The bloodied face thing I put down to contiunity.
me too actually, same with his shirt being clean when Kate finds him. Either if it was a fight or a hallucination, his shirt was dirty from the fall but not later. And I doubt the rain can clean that out, it was filthy.

Still, it is an intriguing idea. If it was a hallucination then most likely the writers will bring this to play some time in the future.

man I hope we find out, now its got me obsessed with finding out. :lol2: There is just so many things to this show that can go one way or another. Brilliant writing.

I am so glad that this discussion is finally taking place. I originally posted this after the first showing of this episode and only got one response. There are a number things to take into account, especially now that more episode have been shown and we can look back. Yes, there is support for both theories but it wouldn't be a mystery if there was conclusive evidence one way or another. IMO, This is a vision and not happening in real time. We know something is happening on this Island that is mysterious/magical or just plain not normal.

Whether you want to classify the following experiences as hallucinations, visions or dreams these are things to be considered:

Jack seeing his Father.
Sayid hearing the whisper's
Ethan's threatening Charlie
Sawyer's hearing the whisper's
Jack's first fight with Ethan
Jack hearing the scream and not hearing it when right next to him.
Claire dreaming about the Black Rock before anyone knew about the Black Rock.

Boone's experience with Shannon/Monster even though Locke applied a hallucinogen how was he/it able to be controlled to seeing what he did?

There may be more but this is a good start. I have a theory but I'd like to see more discussion before throwing it out there.

Do you think Jack's father was a hallucination, a ghost, or something else?* It has always bugged me that the hallucination appeared behind Jack at one point.*

It never occurred to me that Ethan threatening Charlie might be a hallucination, I was puzzling over the other angle -- why did Ethan need to knock Jin out?* Because he couldn't handle both of them, or some other reason altogether?*

What if the Other's have learned how to read a person's thoughts and project images into their mind?

I'm fairly the sure the fight did happen, but that's just my opinion, There's been lots of evidence for both sides. I guess only time will really tell!

I watched very closely on Wednesday to see if I could catch any indication that it actually happened, and I noticed that Jack was pretty bloody after the fight. Maybe not as much as you would expect after being beat to a pulp, but he definitely looked worse than if he just rolled down the hill.

It never occurred to me that Ethan threatening Charlie might be a hallucination, I was puzzling over the other angle -- why did Ethan need to knock Jin out? Because he couldn't handle both of them, or some other reason altogether?

I think Ethan just wanted to give Charlie his message, and Jin was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Something definitely happened during those hours that Charlie was missing, and hopefully we'll find out a bit about it at some point.

What if the Other's have learned how to read a person's thoughts and project images into their mind?


It might not even have to be that mysterious -- maybe they don't have to read their minds, just know how to project images or otherwise manipulate them.* Anybody who kept track of these people before they got on the plane would know that Jack would be thinking of his dad, Claire would be thinking of her baby, Charlie would be thinking of his career, and so on.

Sawyer's whisper was the same thing the dying man said.* Possible explanations for the Others knowing what button to push:

1.* They can read minds.
2.* The man didn't actually die.* (The thread on that is in the spoiler theories section now or I'd link it.)
3.* Someone else was at that scene and heard him say it.* (Sawyer only knew how to find him because whatshisname tracked him down first.)

I guess an enormous conspiracy theory is possible. But the magnitude of that is beyond Frank surviving the shooting or the guy that put Sawyer put to it hearing it. I'll make my case for clumping Jack/Ethan and Charlie/Ethan altercations together.

These are the only actual incidents that show Ethan as a deranged super powerful individual, even Locke says he didn't sense any of this from Ethan during the many hours they spent together tracking and hunting. In fact Locke says he learned a bit from Ethan. So Jin is conveniently knocked out and Kate is conveniently up the hill so each time there is no one else to witness what Ethan does. Our, and the Lostaways, only reason to believe Ethan is the "Bad Guy" is based on what Charlie and Jack say/see. Neither Jack nor Charlie seem to have motives to lie about this, So I conclude IMHO they are manipulated. Who gains in all of this? The Other's. Are the Other's one big happy family? I would venture to say not. 2 sides one intent on capturing Claire & her Baby the other wanting to protect her. I know we haven't seen the Other's much less know if there are 2 separate groups. But since this is the theory section I will theorize.

The whispers seem to me to indicate some kind of intrusion into the mind. There are unintelligible Whispers and then the Line we all hear "It'll come back around." The gibberish is all the thoughts going through the mind in bits and pieces until a complete thought is isolated.

I'm not talking mystical mind reading, I'm talking about utilizing technology through RF/ELF/Microwave signals and processing them through a computer into and from the human mind. I'll give you a link that shows the mind and computer interface at work today. What I am suggesting is the Other's have been able to take this to the next level.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/brain.html

I'm with you LostbyLost, I don't think the fight between Ethan & Jack ever happened.*

I dont think Ethan had anything to gain by leaving Claire alone while he went off to beat the crap out of Jack, and even less to gain by threatening to kill one of them and then hanging Charlie.*

I believe that there was only a short space of time between Ethan 'taking' Claire & Charlie and the others going to search for them.* It seemed on the episode that the events at the camp and the 'taking' were running pretty much simultaneously, as in, as Claire & Charlie met Ethan in the jungle, Sayid was hobbling into camp at the caves, just after which Hurley come running in to tell them that Ethan wasn't on the plane list - I could be wrong about the timing.*

They gathered togather a search group pretty quickly, and from my reckoning Ethan could only have had about an hours lead, tops.* I really don't see why Ethan would stop mid kidnapping, to beat Jack up and deliver his threat to kill one of them if they didn't stop following him.* What did he do with Charlie & Claire while this was happening?*

It has been suggested that he had already hung Charlie by the time he threatened Jack, but that makes even less sense.* Why would you threaten to do something you have already done?* He certainly didn't have enough time to do it after the alleged threat was issued.* My take is that if someone threatens to kill someone if you keep on following them, and then you find out by continuing to follow them that they have indeed done so, you would assume they intend to kill the other one and just go after them with all you've got, so it wasn't in Ethans best interests to carry out his threat regardless.

Why would you continue to follow someone who had issued a threat to kill one of them if you did anyway?* Surely at that point, the sensible thing to have done, would be to have returned to camp, gathered the necessary people together and worked out some sort of revised plan of action, based on the threat made.* It seems that Jack totally disregarded what Ethan said, which in reality would be a very silly thing to do, you don't call the bluff of someone they believed to be dangerous, and expect him not to carry out his threat.

My thoughts are that Ethan was protecting Claire when he took her.* He had insinuated his way into the group by pretending to be one of them, and had had ample opportunity to kidnap Claire before he did so.* My guess is that he knew that there would be a liklihood off some threat being made towards Claire at some point, and when the attack came in the middle of the night, he realised it was time to take her out of there so they couldn't get to her baby.

I agree too that we only have Jack and Charlies word for it that Ethan is the bad guy.* I thought it was awfully convenient that there were no witnesses to the Ethan/Jack fight or to the Charlie/Ethan altercation when he told Charlie to bring Claire back to him.* I don't know why I think this yet, but I think Charlie knows and remembers a LOT more than he is saying.* He wanted them all to believe that Ethan was the bad guy, and now there is no way that Ethan could give them a different version of events or tell them the reason he took Claire, because Charlie took him out of the equation before he could do so - handy that...

The person who thought there could be 2 groups of 'others', I agree, it seems very likely to me that there are.* The 'good' others and then the 'bad' others Ethan having belonged to the former group, and the latter group being the ones that really pose the threat to Claire's baby.

It seemed to me that Ethan belonged to the John Locke school of thought as well, that any means were acceptable as long as the end result is achieved, maybe that meant something too....Locke did say he looked into the eye of the island, and he also said he didn't get any perception that there was anything 'off' about Ethan while he was living with them.* Ethan perhaps thought he was acting for the 'greater good', just as Locke did when he bashed Boone and sent him on his trip.

I think the original episode title of 'Sides' would have referred to the 2 groups of 'others' that we have yet to meet, not to the Lostaways splitting into 2 groups, and maybe Locke unwittingly, already is working for the 'good' side, and that's what he meant by his comment to Boone of needing Sayid on their side.

Just as an aside, when Sawyer heard the whispers - I definitely heard a second whisper just before or after the "It'll come back around" saying "It was supposed to be" For those of you who want to listen. This is said at 3.33mins, repeated again at 3.37 mins, and it also sounds like "It was a test" is said at 3.52. Turn the speakers up and listen - does anybody else hear it?

Nice Post UK GIRL.

Kate said there was no fight. I hope no one is implying, Kate would lie. :lol2:

I'm on the fence.

We also have to remember one thing..Jack/Locke and Charlie all felt guilty for Claire being taken. Jack because he didn't believe her, Locke for hanging around Ethan and not 'sensing' anything and Charlie for not being able to head off the abduction while actually there.

Jack 'fights' wtih Ethan who beats him but he saves Charlie and later kicks Ethan's butt.. Locke folows the alternate trail and finds the hatch. Charlie gets his life saved and in the end gets his revenge and Claire back.

Figure all that into your equations.

Today Javi replied to the question of the fight in his thread. He says the fight happened.

Well, I've just seen Javi's reply to LostbyLost's question, and I am surprised. I do still doubt in my mind that the fight happened in 'real life' as it were, and not just inside Jacks mind, but I have no reason to suspect deliberate misdirection on Javi's part, so I guess we have to take his word for it.

In that case, a little attention to detail on their part would be good. Why did Jack not look as though he had been beaten afterwards, why was his shirt cleaner again, not to mention the time span that all this stuff was supposed to have happened in.

I am not trying to make this a conspiracy theory type thing, but I have heard that the writers sometimes change their minds about how to progress certain things as they go along - i.e. the meds, and I wonder if originally they were persuing one storyline and have now decided to persue another.

I still don't think that Ethan was evil 'at the time all the Ethan stuff was filmed'

Well I am glad that is settled.

Now I am ASSUMING that the stuff with Charlie and Ethan also happened as well.

Oh well...
I am glad its over though, it was driving me nuts. :)

So Kate lied and probably helped Ethan hang Charlie. I'm also beginning to believe she speaks French. :lol2:

With the answer I recieved from Javi, who has answered questions for many people and I don't believe would mislead us. This is now a dead issue. It was a great discussion while it lasted.

*LBL walks away tail between his legs dark circles under his eyes a mad insane look on is face to ponder "another" theory*.