Did I miss something??

I think it was both a reference to Dickens (re:the finale of season 2) and also a nod to the two very different camps on the island.

1. Otherville.

2. Los Angeles (Jack's FBs).

Two "cities." Nothing more complicated than that.

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times."

That's what I thought Savethehumans.

Themes of the book have to do with worlds-within-worlds (otherville within the island), betrayal, and heroism/sacrifice ("It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known"). One of the two sides is fighting the good fight... but whom?

Don't forget another part of Dickens' plot...Two men in love with the same girl, though the Jack-Sawyer-Kate thing didn't really come up in this epidsode.

So the title is 'tale of two cities.' anyone have ideas on what they think the significance is? Clearly, there is the other's village and our village, but we didn't see our camp at all. So perhaps it's about something else?

So the title is 'tale of two cities.' anyone have ideas on what they think the significance is? Clearly, there is the other's village and our village, but we didn't see our camp at all. So perhaps it's about something else?

Total stab in the dark, but A Tale of Two Cities is known, primarily in pop culture reference, for its opening line--"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times."

Before the plane crashes, it certainly appears the villagers are living a really good life--ie, it's the "best of times."

The plane crashes, and all hell breaks loose on the island. Now, it's the worst of times...

I have no idea, but that sounds like as good an idea as any.

Before the plane crashes, it certainly appears the villagers are living a really good life--ie, it's the "best of times."

I can't agree with that.
Claire's unplanned and unwanted pregnancy.
Jack's father died and he's bringing him home for his funeral.
Despite winning the lottery everything else in Hurley's life is falling apart.
Locke was denied the one thing he really wanted on his vacation because of his disability.
Sun was getting ready to leave Jin, but at the last minute changed her mind.
Rose has cancer.
Kate has been caught and is going to prison.

Those don't sound like good times to me.

I think they were talking about the others when they said the best of times, but i could be wrong

Doh. I got that now.

I think they were talking about the others when they said the best of times, but i could be wrong

Yeah, seemed obvious to me.

That sounds like about the best explination... although...

Kate and Sawyer seem to be in someplace very different then where Jack is.

That and it does kind of seem like The Dhathers are seperated into two groups...even though Benry seems to be clearly the Leader. Maybe the book club isn't all it seems?

Yeah, seemed obvious to me.

That sounds like about the best explination... although...

Kate and Sawyer seem to be in someplace very different then where Jack is.

That and it does kind of seem like The Dhathers are seperated into two groups...even though Benry seems to be clearly the Leader. Maybe the book club isn't all it seems?

Following up on this, maybe the Book Club is all that it seems right now, but maybe it will become the anti-Dharma sect of the others, led by Juliet. Viva La Resistance!

Any ideas as to why they have a book club and not poker night?

Well, we don't really know where the show is going for sure, but...

A Tale of Two Cities is basically about the events leading up to the French Revolution.

(We could be seeing a simiar revolution beginning on the island.)

It is also a story that centers around two men with completely different personalities, but who are in love with the same woman.

(Could be Jack and Sawyer, and their feelings for Kate.)

And that's probably about as much as I should say here about the plot of A Tale of Two Cities and how it may coincide with the outcome of the Sawyer/Kate/Jack triangle. (Or the Jack/Kate/Sawyer triangle according to which way you swing.) The rest might be considered spoilerish information if the connection between the book and the show go in that direction.

I know the book was not Stephen King's "The Stand", but playing off of the stephen king theme- in the book the stand you will recall that there were two cities, Evil- in Las Vegas and Good in Boulder Colorado. Only one of the cities was going to survive.
That is what I thought of when I heard the title of the episode as A tale of two cities.

Tagging onto what Dharmatologist posted, Dickens wrote "A Tale of Two Cities" in serialized form, releasing a chapter every month. Over time, ATOTC became quite popular with the public at large, and like Stephen King's novels, was critically derided because most of the critics of that era would use popular success as a litmus test for quality. If the masses like it, it must suck.

Small tangent--A Tale of Two Cities is regarded as classic literature now, just the sort of classic literature a person like Ben might find more engaging in a book club than "Carrie." Another nod to his more elitist leanings?

i figured maybe they meant two cities as in the others nice houses and village, and the other city would be the dharma experiment area. as in they have two diff lives in the village and then on the rest of the island.

1. Otherville.

2. Los Angeles (Jack's FBs).

Two "cities." Nothing more complicated than that.

I do not think that: "nothing more complicated than that" ever applies to Lost.

A "Tale of Two Cities" by Dickens sits on a razor. "It was a season of Light, it was a season of darkness." The entire book is a delicate balance between extremes. And it seems to me that Lost has done this too, right from the very beginning.

Us v.s. Them, Good v.s. Evil, Light v.s. Dark, Free v.s. Imprisoned, Lost v.s. Found, Truth v.s. Lies, Real v.s. Unreal, Dead v.s. Alive, One v.s. the Many, The Island v.s. The Flashbacks ....

For Jack, Sawyer, and Kate this is the worst of times. They've been ripped away from friends, and are being held captive in a strange world where they do not know the rules of engagement, and do not know who to trust, or what torture lies around the corner.

And yet, the possibility remains if the camera pans out far enough we will see that it is the best of times. As the Others so often put it, "They are better off now."

And how can we not put the Dickens novel up against Stephen King's "Carrie?" A tale of two cities would be that peice of literature which that arrogant scholar had asked for. But no --- Juliet, as the host, has chosen a pop culture favorite, "Carrie." The horror genre rarely seeps into the halls of the academy.

In such a comparison, I think we can ask this question: Is the island (whatever it's purpose) for the majority, or the chosen few? Has Jack been chosen and manipulated; did Juliet have the file before the plane crashed or after?

I believe that everything we have seen of the Others puts them squarely in the "chosen few" camp. There is a heiroarchy, a "Him," to whom everyone follows. The lists of names, only "good" people are chosen to join them. And so, I'm sure that when "Carrie," was chosen for their book club, it was a shock.

While Jack, as hero of the losties, tries to keep "everyone" safe. True certain tasks, and situations are kept secret, but it is all for the better of the whole group. It is rather telling too of the relationship when Ben asks Locke: "What no Stephen King?" As though he assumes they would be reading books meant for everyone.

One final note, and it's a bit of a tangent. There have been times in this series when things that have been read come true. Think of Walt reading about the polar bears in spanish. This season opened with a book club reading a story of a girl who has telekinetic powers, and at one point destroys her school and everyone in it, due to the ridulcule from the majority, and an intense feeling of isolation. And just as Juliet (who is making muffins, and fails, i.e. wants to be a "normal" mom, but cannot) is defending her choice of the book, she is ridiculed and isolated and then --- the plane crashes.

But we know she didn't crash the plane. Desmond crashed the plane. And we know Walt did not bring the polar bears to the island. The dharma initiative did. It's not that the things read come true because they were read, but that the they are read because they are coming true.

Simon says, "Watch Lost."

On the official podcast, they said something about how it was in reference to Otherville and the Losties' camp.

On the official podcast, they said something about how it was in reference to Otherville and the Losties' camp.

That's lovely, only there was no Losties' camp in this eppy.:undecide:

The Dickens reference would have made me think it was Desmond reference in this one, had I not been spoiled beforehand to the contrary. Nether explanation really does it for me. I just don't get it.

I agree with you Lea. It seems too simple of an explanation for the title simply to refer to the Others' community.

Here's some info I found:

A Tale of Two Cities (1859) is a historical novel by Charles Dickens; it is moreover a moral novel strongly concerned with themes of guilt, shame, redemption and patriotism.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tale_of_two_cities)

Well, obviously this can be applied to virtually all of our Lost characters. So even if it has long been established that they're not in Purgatory, they're still dealing with personal purgatories. And the question remains whether the Others are actually playing a direct role in the Losties' process of facing thier demons, for which Juliet's file on Jack seemed to supply further proof.

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times."

How about "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times" refering to "the best of times" - being the other camp before the crash of oceanic 815 - and the worst of times "being how they chose to deal with the crash, and the things that they did to the survivors.

I agree with you Lea. It seems too simple of an explanation for the title simply to refer to the Others' community.

Here's some info I found:

A Tale of Two Cities (1859) is a historical novel by Charles Dickens; it is moreover a moral novel strongly concerned with themes of guilt, shame, redemption and patriotism.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tale_of_two_cities)

Well, obviously this can be applied to virtually all of our Lost characters. So even if it has long been established that they're not in Purgatory, they're still dealing with personal purgatories. And the question remains whether the Others are actually playing a direct role in the Losties' process of facing thier demons, for which Juliet's file on Jack seemed to supply further proof.

Yes, I think we can even get a little bit more specific. It seems to me that the episode is comparing the losties to "the people," and the Others to "the aristocracy."

"The people" are often portrayed in the book as a bloodthirsty and vengeful group. Though they are fighting for freedom, their personal motivations aren't always so lofty. See Mdme. Defarge. The losties show up in a move to liberate Walt, but they have some other personal motivations going on as well. While the goal of the group is righteous, what got them there was the desire to avenge the deaths of Ana-Lucia and Libby. Further, we have one idealistic male, one male who wishes he were more worthy, and both desire the same woman.

"The aristocracy" is portrayed as being indifferent to the needs of "the people." They have plentiful food and resources, as well as a prior claim. On the surface, they seem quite civilized, that is until their way of life is threatened. They feel they are better equipped to create laws, judge good and bad, and claim to act in the best interest of everyone, when in truth it is only the best interest of the aristocracy.;) There might be a few sensitive souls among their numbers, such as Dr. Manette, who really care about "the people." Yet, generally speaking...they don't really care.

I think the theme that lost shared with the book is this one (extract on sparknotes):

"
The Tendency toward Violence and Oppression in Revolutionaries
Throughout the novel, Dickens approaches his historical subject with some ambivalence. While he supports the revolutionary cause, he often points to the evil of the revolutionaries themselves. Dickens deeply sympathizes with the plight of the French peasantry and emphasizes their need for liberation. The several chapters that deal with the Marquis Evrémonde successfully paint a picture of a vicious aristocracy that shamelessly exploits and oppresses the nation’s poor. Although Dickens condemns this oppression, however, he also condemns the peasants’ strategies in overcoming it. For in fighting cruelty with cruelty, the peasants effect no true revolution; rather, they only perpetuate the violence that they themselves have suffered. Dickens makes his stance clear in his suspicious and cautionary depictions of the mobs. The scenes in which the people sharpen their weapons at the grindstone and dance the grisly Carmagnole come across as deeply macabre. Dickens’s most concise and relevant view of revolution comes in the final chapter, in which he notes the slippery slope down from the oppressed to the oppressor: “Sow the same seed of rapacious license and oppression over again, and it will surely yield the same fruit according to its kind.” Though Dickens sees the French Revolution as a great symbol of transformation and resurrection, he emphasizes that its violent means were ultimately antithetical to its end."
Maybe the others defends the right cause but not without cruelty...

>>There's also a love triangle in A tale of two cities but we don't really see it in the episode so...
>>>It's also a story who talks about a father (doctor) and his sister (lucy manette) so maybe there's a link with jack and his father...

Hah! Calypso, GMTA. ;)

Hi!:biggrin:
Oh sorry GMTA what does it mean?:confused: (sorry if i look stupid but you know i'm not american and not familiar with all this things!)

Love your post by the way!

I just wanna add this...

>>And for those who think kate was raped ...;there's the theme of rape in the book... the father and uncle of Charles Darnay (lucie's husband) who are aristocrats raped a girl from the people and it has a lot of consequences in the book.
And i think even if kate hasn't been raped (i think she hasn't) the scenarist want us to think about it...

Hi!:biggrin:
Oh sorry GMTA what does it mean?:confused: (sorry if i look stupid but you know i'm not american and not familiar with all this things!)

Love your post by the way!

I just wanna add this...

>>And for those who think kate was raped ...;there's the theme of rape in the book... the father and uncle of Charles Darnay (lucie's husband) who are aristocrats raped a girl from the people and it has a lot of consequences in the book.
And i think even if kate hasn't been raped (i think she hasn't) the scenarist want us to think about it...


GMTA=great minds think alike

Oh ok thanks!:biggrin: :cool: :biggrin:

I'm wondering if there are / will be any parallels between Sydney Carton and anyone from the island. From what I remember about ToTC, Carton was a rather well-off, though socially isolated, man who sacrificed himself so that Lucie and her family could stay together. I'm thinking that Juliet could possibly fulfill a similar role, as she seems most sympathetic to the Losties, and perhaps the most willing to sacrifice her position as one of the Others to help Jack, Kate, and Sawyer.

Once someone takes you prisoner, the rules of engagement get tossed out the window. The gloves come off, and it becomes about the acceptance of your captivity or the resolve to escape. Very much like the crashing on the island itself, when do you fight, when do not? Do you accept that rescue is impossible, or keep trying to get home?

I'm wondering if there are / will be any parallels between Sydney Carton and anyone from the island. From what I remember about ToTC, Carton was a rather well-off, though socially isolated, man who sacrificed himself so that Lucie and her family could stay together. I'm thinking that Juliet could possibly fulfill a similar role, as she seems most sympathetic to the Losties, and perhaps the most willing to sacrifice her position as one of the Others to help Jack, Kate, and Sawyer.

reading the book i thought it was Sawyer...but now...i think you may be right!
Considering the Romeo&Juliette reference....the idea of sacrifice is plausible to me.

I do not think that: "nothing more complicated than that" ever applies to Lost.

A "Tale of Two Cities" by Dickens sits on a razor. "It was a season of Light, it was a season of darkness." The entire book is a delicate balance between extremes. And it seems to me that Lost has done this too, right from the very beginning.

Us v.s. Them, Good v.s. Evil, Light v.s. Dark, Free v.s. Imprisoned, Lost v.s. Found, Truth v.s. Lies, Real v.s. Unreal, Dead v.s. Alive, One v.s. the Many, The Island v.s. The Flashbacks ....

For Jack, Sawyer, and Kate this is the worst of times. They've been ripped away from friends, and are being held captive in a strange world where they do not know the rules of engagement, and do not know who to trust, or what torture lies around the corner.

And yet, the possibility remains if the camera pans out far enough we will see that it is the best of times. As the Others so often put it, "They are better off now."

And how can we not put the Dickens novel up against Stephen King's "Carrie?" A tale of two cities would be that peice of literature which that arrogant scholar had asked for. But no --- Juliet, as the host, has chosen a pop culture favorite, "Carrie." The horror genre rarely seeps into the halls of the academy.

In such a comparison, I think we can ask this question: Is the island (whatever it's purpose) for the majority, or the chosen few? Has Jack been chosen and manipulated; did Juliet have the file before the plane crashed or after?

I believe that everything we have seen of the Others puts them squarely in the "chosen few" camp. There is a heiroarchy, a "Him," to whom everyone follows. The lists of names, only "good" people are chosen to join them. And so, I'm sure that when "Carrie," was chosen for their book club, it was a shock.

While Jack, as hero of the losties, tries to keep "everyone" safe. True certain tasks, and situations are kept secret, but it is all for the better of the whole group. It is rather telling too of the relationship when Ben asks Locke: "What no Stephen King?" As though he assumes they would be reading books meant for everyone.

One final note, and it's a bit of a tangent. There have been times in this series when things that have been read come true. Think of Walt reading about the polar bears in spanish. This season opened with a book club reading a story of a girl who has telekinetic powers, and at one point destroys her school and everyone in it, due to the ridulcule from the majority, and an intense feeling of isolation. And just as Juliet (who is making muffins, and fails, i.e. wants to be a "normal" mom, but cannot) is defending her choice of the book, she is ridiculed and isolated and then --- the plane crashes.

But we know she didn't crash the plane. Desmond crashed the plane. And we know Walt did not bring the polar bears to the island. The dharma initiative did. It's not that the things read come true because they were read, but that the they are read because they are coming true.

Simon says, "Watch Lost."

Wow. Great post. You gave a perspective I've never thought of before. Thanks. Good stuff....

Alternatively, and much more likely it was after Ray Bradbury's Graveyard for lunatics : Another Tale of Two Cites’.

Set in LA and about Hollywood:

Anotherer tale of two cities:
Once upon a time there were two cities within a city. One was light and one was dark. One moved restlessly all day while the other never stirred. One was warm and filled with ever-changing lights. One was cold and fixed in place by stones

se my thread http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=58920&page=9&highlight=bradbury

Does anyone have thoughts about the significance of the title, “A Tale of Two Cities”? The title most likely refers to the novel, A Tale of Two Cities, by Charles Dickens. But why does this matter? What literary connections can be made?

What are the two cities?
In Dicken’s novel the two cities are London and Paris. In Lost, what could be the two cities? Sydney and Los Angeles (where the flight was scheduled for)? Or, could the two cities relate to the island? Could the Others oasis/home area be considered one city and the home of the passengers be considered the second city? Or, could the island be considered one city and the outside world the second city?

(I realize the symbolic meaning of the cities is probably more important than the actual cities themselves but it would be interesting to know which two cities are being referred to in Lost. If any.)


Imprisonment as a theme:
In the novel, A Tale of Two Cities, many of the characters experience some kind of imprisonment. The characters in the novel, Darnay and Manette, for example, serve sentences in jails. Imprisonment is a recurring theme in the novel. As seen in the first episode of Lost Sawyer, Jack and Kate all experience a form of physical (and possibly psychological/emotional) imprisonment. The entire episode focuses on their imprisonment. And yet, for Jack the psychological/emotional imprisonment far outweighs the physical. It is the memories of his past that torment him the most while he is imprisoned by the Others.

Redemption/Resurrection as a theme:
Many scholars argue that the novel’s most prevalent theme is one of redemption and resurrection. In terms of Lost, could this relate to Jack who is haunted by the memories of his ex-wife? Finally, Jack is able to free himself from the memories in the scene between him and Juliet. Juliet offers to tell Jack anything he wants to know about his ex-wife, Sarah. Jack, who has been searching for this information so desperately, ends the obsession by committing a truly selfless act. He has the opportunity to ask the questions his mind has been fixated on but instead he asks how Sarah is. This selfish act “frees” Jack, in a sense. Is this Jack’s moment of redemption/resurrection?

Or, does the theme of redemption and resurrection point to something far greater? Is the island merely a place for the redemption and resurrection of the passengers who are abandoned on it? Many of the passengers are haunted by their past lives. Does the island offer its occupants an opportunity to commit a noble, selfless act in order to be resurrected again?


[I read <a href= "http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/twocities/themes.html">this article</a> for additional information.]

Could it be as simple as the opening lines?

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times..."?

I took it as hints of possible character death to come - someone will do "a far far better thing" and sacrifice themself for another and/or for love.

Yes, i agree with the deaths part. we know that two people close to Sun will die in the first six episodes, so im thinking tonight since its her flashback eppy, and one will prolly die there (Jae-Lee????), although both could. Otherwise its on the island. Sayid (close in proximity) or Jin *tear*. Jae-Lee is shark bait!!!

this may be of interest

http://www.atomicarchive.com/historymenu.shtml

the bottom left hand picture bears a photo with the title

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Photos/Hiroshima/images/Cloud.jpg (ttp://www.atomicarchive.com/Photos/Hiroshima/images/Cloud.jpg)

upon further inspection the picture bears remarkable similarites to the LAST SHOT before going black and then to the show intro logo..

a closer view of that screen cap reveals what appears to be the others camp inside a large crater.. look close and you'll see the mountains form a distinct crater rim.

All I know is that I am desperately trying to dive back into my memory and remember all the Dickens books I read in Intermidate School. Damn college , destroyed my mind with endless drinking and ......

I do not think that: "nothing more complicated than that" ever applies to Lost.

A "Tale of Two Cities" by Dickens sits on a razor. "It was a season of Light, it was a season of darkness." The entire book is a delicate balance between extremes. And it seems to me that Lost has done this too, right from the very beginning.

Dichotomy is a very big part of "A Tale Of Two Cities", just as it is in Lost.

Yes, you're right, and in both it's a messed up dichotomy. The reference, IMO, is to the two camps, but also an allusion to Charles Darnay/Sidney Carton who were not related but could have been identical twins they looked so much alike. And Darnay was good, Carton was bad (but redeems himself completely in the end). So we've got a Bad Twin reference, but we also see the most negative side of Jack that we've seen this far (his own Hyde-like bad twin emerges to challenge the good Dr. Jekyll-like Jack).

Tagging onto what Dharmatologist posted, Dickens wrote "A Tale of Two Cities" in serialized form, releasing a chapter every month. Over time, ATOTC became quite popular with the public at large, and like Stephen King's novels, was critically derided because most of the critics of that era would use popular success as a litmus test for quality. If the masses like it, it must suck.

Small tangent--A Tale of Two Cities is regarded as classic literature now, just the sort of classic literature a person like Ben might find more engaging in a book club than "Carrie." Another nod to his more elitist leanings?

When Benry was still in the hatch and Locke gave him a copy of Crime and Punishment didn't he say something like "Dostoyevsky? Don't you have any Steven King?"