This post is just in general regard to what this show has become and is becoming. I have been on this island since September of 2004. I watched as the Pilot aired, in awe of what is the greatest pilot ever made. I bought season 1 day and date. I bought season 2 day and date. I love this show, period.

Now, whats my problem with this show? I am a writer/director and I'm not sure if that helps but it definetely make me look at this show from a writers POV. And last season I guessed long before things came out or began becoming clear what would happen. And after the finale i guessed what would happen this season. Thus far I'm right.

Enough about me. Back to the show. Season One is where we all fell in love. Where chaos and randomness was King. There was no pre-emptive "this is what this season is about", it was just madness. And I refuse to accept the fact that its because we were learning with the characters and everything and everyone was new. That is just not the case in most claims. The second season came with a great opener and never left that eps. That was the problem, the second season fell into this, "i'm all about dharma and not about the randomness of the island" and that is where I think most of us began loosing that feeling of being hooked. It became more of a cat and mouse game. The writers began putting things in just to get people talking, things that will never be answered. It was all for the moment and not for the bigger picture. And I feel this season will only get worse. We wont have tid bits here and there. It'll be like JJ and Damon are say, all about action-adventure and the others. Yay. A entire 23-24 eps all about one thing. Great! Next season 23-24 eps about the polar bear and the monster! Yay! That won't be annoying or seam like filler at all. And maybe in 10-15 seasons they will get around to what the show was. I love the slow reveal i'm not hurting for answers. I'm just tired of what seem to be Rants and always answering questions with questions. No solid answers, just answering with more questions. And not sure about all of you bout I wont stay for more than 4 maybe 5 seasons before I think that they have taken it way to far in stretching things out.

Now, this season, the big "killer" twist that Damon said will make people love this show or jump shark will based on what the offer to jack was tonight probably be Jack leaving the island and thus the show for a long long time. That'd make a lot of people "jump shark". I would be one of them, removing the main character for, most likely a pointless and plotless reason only to bring him back at the end/beginning of season 4 in some silly heroic way. Great! I'm also sure that Juilet is actually a doctor and will help our losties is any injuries would occur, and how lucky are they to have a doctor after jack left. Great coincidence.

Just saying that I wish this show would be fun again. I wish the writers would realize that instead of subplots of an entire story arc, which is what lost is, we would rather them get back to the actual story arc. I don't need a little rant here about how dharma did this and we are all super interested yet never actually explore the hatch b.s. I want them to get back to hooking me every week and having me hanging by a thread in excitement like the first season. There is no way any of you can legitimently say that last season was like the first. Where every weak you just thought about lost and how crazy this and that was and how this means that. And all that long before dharma came in to throw all of us off.

I hope I am wrong and this season gets back onto the path this show started on. I also hope Jack doesnt leave the island. But what hurts this show the most for me is that if that does happen, there are plenty of other amazing shows that are around, like Battlestar Galatica, 24, Heroes just to name a few.

What you think?

I agree that the show has to get back on track. I fear that it is going to be canceled by the end of this season.

True, there are other fine shows. But Lost (Season One and Two) was the very best show that was ever on TV and I don't want it to end!

I'm giving them one more episode and then I'm out of here for good. The Glass Ballerina was the nail in the coffin for me.

Well, a post like this is obviously going to be controversial, so I hope you don't mind some rebuttals.

First of all, it seems to me like your argument is all over the place and contradictory in parts. You say that you liked "chaos and randomness" in the first season. Then you claim to be upset that many season two episodes were just "for the moment and not the bigger picture." This seems contradictory to me. It also seems contradictory to say that you "love the slow reveal" and are not "hurting for answers," but then claim to be tired of the writers always "answering questions with more questions." I hope you can clarify these statements.

As for your predictions about Jack and Juliet, you may be right, you may not be. But for most of the Losties I know, that kind of speculation is what makes the show fun. It's what fuels dozens of message boards and podcast after podcast. Lost is a water cooler show. So if you think you've got your finger on the pulse-- well, maybe you do and maybe you don't. But most people tend to find that to be part of the fun.

Lastly, I would just like to point out that no show can stay mysterious forever. There's no way that an audience would tolerate endless random elements being introduced without some kind of connections being made. People have already been very vocal about the need for answers; in fact, many seem to think they are being provided TOO slowly. I guess the lesson is that old Abe adage-- you can't please all of the people all of the time...

The show is what it is. Whatever episode comes out, there are going to be people that love it and people turned off by it. Last week's premiere was a good example; while about 44% in the poll felt it was one of the best episodes of the series, and others thought is was at least good, there were a lot of complaints from a vocal minority about it. But I think it's a mistake to think it got "off track" at any point. The writers have a vision and a direction for the show, and the problem is that it doesn't always fit the individual viewer's vision. They do what they can to keep as many viewers on board as possible, but they can't please everybody.

True, they cannot please everybody. But based on what I am hearing, they may not be pleasing enough people to keep the show alive for Season Four.

Exactly what is the vision? What is the direction? Have they purposely turned the show into a soap opera? Why is that a wise move?

Romance is BORING and not the reason Lost was so successful in Seasons One and Two. Romance was a very small part of the show. This season, romance has taken over. The back stories were about Jack's failed marriage and Sun's extra-marital activites. Who Kate ends up seems to be one of the biggest questions we face.

Season Two left us with storylines that should have opened Season Three with big adventure and lots of action. The one chance at huge action - Sayid's "plan" - was foiled. Our noble, all-knowing, invincible former Republican Guard has been reduced to making a plan that is so silly it is embarrassing.

I loved Lost in Seasons One and Two. I totally get it - the mysteries, the questions, the uncertainty. But these first two shows of the third season are not that at all. Lost has become mostly soap opera crap. Even the action was crap like when soap operas try to deliver action.

And oh yeah... we are getting two completely unlikable characters - Juliet and Ben - shoved down our throats.

uhhhhhhhhhh Ok Wastedmind.

I still don't get your point of this post.

However I would like to say, LOST is doing quite well in the ratings. I don't think it's going away anytime soon.

I also like the addition of the new characters. I think the Producers have done a helluva job casting. That goes from now, all the way back to the series pilot. Also I would like to say, Jack is not the end all be all of this show. If he stays, fine. If he goes, I'll completely understand. I'm sure the writers have something in mind. I think lost will continue to roll its course.

One other thing, As a Writer/Producer I think you'll understand this. If you're that upset. Upset enough to write that original monster post. You might want to move on and find you something else. Maybe one of those quick 30 minute sitcoms.

Lost entertains me for a hour, every week. That's all I ask of it. Entertain me. Give me something to think about until next Wednesday at 9. It does that and more.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The show is starting to get into trouble because they've lost sight of what made it popular to begin with.

But honestly...you're a writer? You spelled "legitimately," "definitely," "seem," and "weak" incorrectly, used "to" instead of "too," forgot apostrophes in a couple of places they were needed, and used several run-on sentences ("I love the slow reveal i'm not hurting for answers"). I guess you mean Scriptwriter.

I
But honestly...you're a writer? You spelled "legitimately," "definitely," "seem," and "weak" incorrectly, used "to" instead of "too," forgot apostrophes in a couple of places they were needed, and used several run-on sentences ("I love the slow reveal i'm not hurting for answers"). I guess you mean Scriptwriter.

I started to put,.. "Spellcheck Dude" in my post. By then I thought better of it.

:smoke:

Sorry to see you go. Don't let the Hatch door hit you on the way out. There will be plenty of room on the bandwagon when you want to jump back on. And here's hoping you can write or direct something that is better. If so, you can count on me to watch it...

Its just my opinion, but alot of shows/books/movie series have this "slow season" syndrome. A season that isnt as exciting, more of plot and character development. I have faith that the writers will redeem themselves either later in the season or next season, because yeah, they do need to pick it up, I haven't been as impressed with the first 2 episodes as I was with both of the first 2 seasons....

Just an idea guys. Personally, I write too, and my spelling is horrendous. I assume it's due to the fact that I rely healily upon spellcheck, which I don't use until I am done with my work. I type quickly, without regard to spelling, which results in my lack of spelling acumen. However, I assue you, I am no dummy.

Let's rise above this. I think we all know spelling is not, necessarily, a cue into somebody's I.Q. Unless, you're all elementary school teachers,...lol.

Let's look at the content of the post,....like grown ups do. :)

Just an idea guys. Personally, I write too, and my spelling is horrendous. I assume it's due to the fact that I rely healily upon spellcheck, which I don't use until I am done with my work. I type quickly, without regard to spelling, which results in my lack of spelling acumen. However, I assue you, I am no dummy.

Let's rise above this. I think we all know spelling is not, necessarily, a cue into somebody's I.Q. Unless, you're all elementary school teachers,...lol.

Let's look at the content of the post,....like grown ups do. :)

Wanting to defend someone is one thing, ending it with a line like this that is likely to be perceived as baiting is another, especially when you have not even added to the topic at hand. Let's not let this thread turn in the wrong direction, since the topic does tend to start some heated discussions.

The show is moving along as the writers intend it to. We may feel we are not getting answers quickly enough, but I for one am nowhere near ready to give up on Lost. I am in it for the whole ride, good bad or indifferent. No the show is not like it was the first season, but it was also something completely new at the time, and the internet was ablaze with chatter and speculation. The fact that there was such great mystery surrounding everything on the show is what got us all hooked! Now we wait, sometimes impatiently, for answers. Its frustrating, but at the same time could be necessary to get from point A to point B. Maybe explaining little things would give away the big things too quickly, and that is why the writers refrain from giving us much in the way of answers. The flashbacks? Call me crazy, but I still think they are an integral part of the show, and will prove to be more and more as time goes on. The most amazing thing to me is, there are many people who talk about not watching Lost anymore, and choose to verbalize this (per se) on the Lost chat boards!! I don't know about the rest of you, but I have given up on TV shows before, and I simply stopped tuning in. Why go to a board to say you arent watching anymore? Could it be that this board is supported by the writers, and people are hoping that they see these posts and decide to go in a different direction? Maybe, but those of you who are writers, if a small percentage of people complained about what you were turning out, would you change your entire plan to satisfy them? Would you be concerned about that percentage not watching or reading, when the largest part of this group is still on board? The writers have a plan, they are going to get there, eventually. In the meantime, let's just sit back and enjoy the ride for what its worth, a television show that inevitably is not supposed to do anything but entertain us. If you are not entertained..... well that poses another question entirely.

Sometimes I just don't understand. So far I've been very happy with the season, all two episodes. I just don't understand why people are so unhappy with the show right now. I feel like they are answering tons of questions, I'm happy with finding out about the others, I'm happy with the writing and the direction the show is going in. I guess the old saying is true, you can't please all of the people all of the time. Anyway, I still think Lost is the best thing on TV and I still love it. Sorry if everyone doesn't feel the same way, but I doubt the show will be cancelled this season.

I'm giving them one more episode and then I'm out of here for good. The Glass Ballerina was the nail in the coffin for me.

One more episode and then you're out of here? Based on your join date and # of posts, I'd say you just arrived! ;)

Regardless, I would like to know why "The Glass Ballerina" was the nail in the coffin for you. Honestly, I'm curious. I guess because I can't say I have any complaints about the first two episodes of Season 3. My favourite scenes so far have been the opening scene of "A Tale of Two Cities" and the closing scene of "The Glass Ballerina".

I apologize for taking the "low road" in my post.

I do not want any ideas to be dissed due to misspellings. I think people need to be encouraged to post, regardless of spelling issues, not discouraged.

Sorry you took it as inflamatory. It was not intended as such.

Yes, being a writer, I tend not to spellcheck til i finish and that is double when it's late which it was. So, sorry. But again, it's what I was saying in the post which obviously you didn't absorb you just saw the errors which I apologize for. The greatest writers aren't always the spelling bee winners.

I love the slow reveal, yes that is correct. I like the randomness and what I was saying is they were getting themselves in what seemed to be rants about things that came to be, well nothing. I like the first season and how you really didn't know what was going to actually happen on this island and one eps you might have a monster chasing you into a tree. The next you might have boar hunting. But since last season they just have gotten into the "lets see how long we can stretch things" phase. So the chaotic-ness of the first season was lost IMO for the most part in the second. They used more music to build up moments that were more than lackluster. And by all for the moment I meant it was a very Episodic and they were more of a CSI like show where the story arc rarely carried over to the larger scheme of things. It felt like it was hurting to get people talking most of the time. This does not include the first 3 and the last 3 of the season but the "core".

Secondly, I can be tired of having EVERY single thing in this show answered with another question. I'm not saying tell me everything or much. Just ANSWER A SINGLE QUESTION without another QUESTION. Just when you think they are going to give you some form of clue or answer they give you another QUESTION and I'm sure i'm not the only one who is annoyed by this. I enjoy the slow reveal but it's not even that anymore, it's how long can we string things along without actually answering things. Because honestly how many people will stay here if this show goes for 5-8 season, which if it's a hit, it's a hit, waiting for answers from season 1 to still be answered? Answer: Not many.

And being a writer, which I am and they are.. I can have an IDEA for a show and when I sit down to write about it, and moreso talk it over with other creative minds that idea gets warped. Which I imagine most people on here don't take into account. Most writers, rarely sit down and write out every single event and mini-arc that will happen, especially in a potentially limitless TV show. Taking that into account, and alot of interviews, you much realize that sooo much can change at a moments notice in writing a show and even more in directing. Challanges come up and putting creative heads changes the original mold of things. So, I'm not saying write to my vision of the show, because if they did that they wouldn't always be building up action scenarios that NEVER and probably will NEVER play out. I'm saying that I think they are loosing track of what the show was and it was a dark, gritty, no holds barred anything can happen on this island full of mysteries show.

Oh and the "i love the slow reveal and im hurting for answers bit" was just a bad sentence that I was probably thinking out loud and like i stated, don't re-read things til its all said and done. But I love slow reveals it's part of the fun I get it. But I am feeling flustered by never getting a SINGLE answer.

Hope that clarifies things. Oh, and this is a forum not a spelling contest. Sorry.

Oh, and ratings while not low, are slipping if you haven't checked the recent neilson ratings.

OK, a couple more points.

I still can't understand how anyone can say that things move slowly on this show in comparison to the average American drama. Before 24 and Lost, American television had practically given up on the idea of a serial story, except in the realm of the soap opera. But shows from the 80s like Dallas and L.A. Law had all but died out, replaced by episodic shows where the emphasis is not even on characters. I'm thinking of stuff like Law & Order. But now we have a show again with one huge story that keeps going week after week. Maybe that throws people off somehow.

But anyway, to answer your claim that no questions have been answered without other questions-- well, if we ran out questions, we would run out of show! But here are some things you may have missed:

We know where the polar bears came from.
We know where the shark came from.
We now know pretty much the entire circumstances of the crash: that Desmond caused an electromagnetic anomaly by failing to push the button, and the anomaly caused the plane to break up in the air.
We know what the purpose of the Dharma Initiative was.
We know the purpose of the hatch.
We know that the Pearl was an experimental hatch.

So far there has been a lot of ups and downs on the show, its always a rollercoaster, I remember from about s02e16 to 19 I felt direction was lost, but then it all came together again, and my patience paid off.

Im sure JJ n Co have some great ideas, but spoiler them too fast and we will soon loose interest, without the drawn out cliffhangers each episode, we would have the answers and think "was that all". We have so much unanswered, and to put this "book" down now we nag at the back of our minds until we pick it up again until we get that one illusive answer that keeps us awake till 3am.

Thinking we have answers would be slightly over confident:

We know where the polar bears came from.Maybe, but why Polar bears, the only clue - from the map in the hatch is about reclimatisamtion...still why though?
We know where the shark came from.Its a tropical area, maybe its natural habitat? Why is the logo there, on the other side does it say "made in Japan"?
We now know pretty much the entire circumstances of the crash: that Desmond caused an electromagnetic anomaly by failing to push the button, and the anomaly caused the plane to break up in the air.Not quite true, the plane was "Thousands of miles off course.." according to the pilot, so it would have been guided for ages before the crash and as we saw in S02E24, the real magnetic problems only existed for a few minutes after failing to push the button...
We know what the purpose of the Dharma Initiative was.We do? We know the public image of Dharma and Hanso, but Mittlewerk has shown there is a darker side to the experiments, the side that perhaps would require "human guinepigs", who would not volunteer for such an exersize.
We know the purpose of the hatch.Not really, why was the magnetic source harnessed, for what purpose? What caused the anomoly? Wheres the connection tunnels shown in the map? Why the "quarentine" label on the hatch? Why were the rungs cut? What was the "incident"? And what was a former CIA agent doing down there?
We know that the Pearl was an experimental hatch.So we are lead to beleive, that the inhabitents were there to watch the other hatches, but have you thought "who watches the watchers"? Why did their journals get sent into a pile in the middle of apparent nowhere for no one to read? Suppose the "watchers" were actually the ones being observed...hmmmm.

Assumption is the mother of all **** ups, there are so man questions unanswered, some never will be, but all of them can be used to fuel more plots, to thicken others up or to twist the knife in to your nights sleep.

Create one question in this series, a thousand possibilities emerge and take you back on the rolloercoaster, sit back and let it happen I say!

First off i would like to say, yes i whole heartedly agree with you in every aspect TV has came along way. And if it wasn't for shows like Lost, 24, CSI, X-files and shows of those sorts we wouldn't have a reason to turn it on. But just because someone made a show with a single story arc cool again, doesn't mean they can't run it into the ground. Case and point X-files. But I agree they've done a pretty damn good job thus far of making if nothing else the best pilot and near flawless first season.

And you said " I still can't understand how anyone can say that things move slowly on this show in comparison to the average American drama." I never said that things move slower on this show than other dramas, and in the same paragraph you mentioned and said you were talking about CSI and Law and Order which are "open and closed" cases in every episode, which aren't the same thing at all. So, you can't really compare this to an average american drama which would be CSI/Law and Order type shows, which don't have a pace. They are open and closed every episode. But you could compare it to something like 24 or battlestar galatica, which move at a steady revealing pace. And compared to those shows, this one moves at the crawl of a snail. I love this show, but realistically I along with most people won't hang around for 5-6 years waiting for answers from the first season.

Now about the things they have answered.

"We know where the polar bears came from.
We know where the shark came from.
We now know pretty much the entire circumstances of the crash: that Desmond caused an electromagnetic anomaly by failing to push the button, and the anomaly caused the plane to break up in the air.
We know what the purpose of the Dharma Initiative was.
We know the purpose of the hatch.
We know that the Pearl was an experimental hatch."

We are assuming that the bears he referred to were the polar bears, so a nod if nothing else was made via dialog. The shark again, assuming it was from the Hydra hatch. With the plane crash, these are again mainly assumptions. I am still waiting for someone to give the crash a more religious/faith spin on how/why it happened rather than just the magnet. We think we know the purpose of the Dharma Initiative, unless I missed something completely. You can put things together and force certian pieces to fit to get an answer but if we are thinking with the characters, we don't have a final verdict on the Dharma Initiative only more questions. We did in fact find out the purpose of THAT hatch was to push a button, but we didnt figure out why? Why meaning what it actually does. No one ever came out and said, if you don't push it this happens because of this. Again, assumptions with more questions. And we know the pearl hatch was used as an experiment yes. But overall those are assumptions that you can make but if we are suppose to know exactly what the characters on the island know, can't really be made until things are more clearly realized, which i'm sure they will whenever we see locke and all them and learn the finer details. But still, all but one are assumptions or opened more questions than anything else.

Either avoid the questions you posed. Or answer them with more questions. I just want closer to something. I want a final verdict on one thing. And I'd prefer it not be, "well we told you where the polar bears came from". Because then it brings the question "why are there polar bears in a tropical climate? In cages?". The slow reveal is fine and works a lot of times in movies and in main other series. But you can't do a slow reveal on everything for numerous seasons and shows. There are enough mysteries on this island for them to give up a few and keep the show interseting albeit with a lot of intrigue.

Like I said. I love this show.
100%
And, all i am really saying is it's becoming more and more likely for "A Very Lost Christmas' Special. :)

I like the ride, I do. I just want the focus back. They are loosing the intrigue in my opinion. It's feeling more like 24. But with less action. Everytime we think there is going to be some massive action sequence it gets foiled and silly. Every time. Especially wtih Sayid. For once can't one of his military plans just work? Can't I see him shoot a few of them and take 2 of them hostage? And see how crazy that gets? I got excited last year where they talked about an army, but that just fizzled out i guess. I just want to see some form of intense/intrigue like Season 1 had. Where it wasn't about ending every episode with a mini-cliffhanger which you know at the begining of the next episode will be fizzled out into some silly result. That's what I am saying. It isn't all about the answers. I figured you would bring that out the most, but my original post was about the inspiration and focus feeling well a bit lost.

And I apologize, though nobody seems to be asking for one. It wasn't my intention to flame. I wouldn't have even mentioned your spelling/grammar but you had to go and say you were a write, so I felt compelled.

I'm not sure why I am becoming dissatisfied with the show. There were a couple of points last season where I felt the same, but overall I thought season 2 was quite engaging. I actually came to enjoy the hatch scenes quite a lot. It was mysterious. Okay, so we didn't get any clues at all as to why there were hieroglyphics on the countdown clock, and nobody acted nearly curious enough about the hatch for my liking, but maybe that will come later.

I just felt myself becoming a bit bored during "Glass Ballerina." I wasn't expecting the second episode out of the gate to be about Sun and Jin. I wanted to know what happened back at the hatch! Even last season they got back to the raft scenes in the 2nd episode. It just felt like filler. I like Jin and Sun (as much as you can like a lying, cheating woman I guess), but it was so removed from what I was expecting that maybe it tainted my viewing experience. As soon as they showed her in bed with Jae, my eyes literally rolled. How cliche. Didn't they already do this with Jack and Sarah, more or less?

Once Henry showed up at the end I perked up. Now here's a character who can seem to make any scene interesting. You just are hanging on his every word, seeing what kind of curve ball he's going to throw.

Maybe I'll feel better after next week's awesome-looking episode.

if Lost had remained like it was in season 1 it wouldve been cancelled already. evolution is necessary to avoid extinction. Twin Peaks was all about the random elements and look what happened there.

i felt season 2 was straying, up until the last handful of episodes, and this new season is bang on track and very focussed.

maybe Jack will leave the island. but he has to 'change his perspective', and who knows how long that will take, probably up to the close of season 5 for all we know.

AnalogKid, there is no need to apologize. Hopefully everyone here enjoys friendly debate. And when I say something like "I honestly can't see why you think..." it truly is because I can't see it. That's why I like to communicate here, because I can learn about other people's perspectives.

Now, to Whoodoo, and regarding your rebuttals to my claims that certain things have been answered. I truly feel that we are not going to get, at any point, the extremely detailed explanations you seem to be looking for. I think you really just have to accept certain premises, such as the existence of the electromagnetic anomaly on the island, or the use of polar bears specifically for the experiment. I love to sit and theorize, but I think it's a mistake to then get angry if the writers don't come out and spell out every little detail.

Sometimes things are weird just to be weird. I mean, think about the first appearance of the polar bear and what that accomplished. It was one of only two things in the pilot episode that really convinced us that the characters wer NOT on an ordinary island. The payoff comes two years later when we learn that indeed, the island is not normal-- there are abandoned research facilities on the other side! That's all I think was meant to come from the polar bear mystery and I think it has played itself out now.

Sure, you can go on asking yourself, "why polar bears? When did they get free? How many of them are there? Why does Walt have a polar bear in his comic?" but it's sort of beating a dead horse at that point, in my opinion.

I love to sit and theorize, but I think it's a mistake to then get angry if the writers don't come out and spell out every little detail.

That's what frustrates me the most lately. The writers have come out and spelled out and answered many questions, but everyone is still looking for conspiracies, they don't want to take the answers at face value. Even when TPTB say they is no time travel, people still try to find time travel in the show. TPTB verify that the plane crashed in 2004, and people still won't believe it. TPTB say that yes, Ben is the leader of the others and people still try to come up with someone else that is the real leader of the others. It all gets very frustrating after awhile.

That's what frustrates me the most lately. The writers have come out and spelled out and answered many questions, but everyone is still looking for conspiracies, they don't want to take the answers at face value. Even when TPTB say they is no time travel, people still try to find time travel in the show. TPTB verify that the plane crashed in 2004, and people still won't believe it. TPTB say that yes, Ben is the leader of the others and people still try to come up with someone else that is the real leader of the others. It all gets very frustrating after awhile.

i agree with that. i tend to avoid the theories section because some of the threadsin there are so ridiculous. i think its obvious when theyve answered a question, plus theres so many to answer whats the point in giving contious false answers, the show would never get anywhere.

Lost seems to be getting lost.

The thing that made me like the show was the large cast and the ability to weave stories between them. Now, we seem to get limited focus on limited characters...so the show is becoming too one dimensional. And the flashbacks are getting too prominent. I wish they'd have less of them.

I have less desire to see the show this season because the story seems to be stalling.

I have to agree with Wastedmind. The 1st episode this season was interesting just because I hadn't seen it all summer and I was interested to find out what happened to Jack Kate and Sawyer.

My first impression was that the characters weren't acting like I expected them to. Jack was yelling for the others so much he lost his voice during season 2 but in the span of a day he's already acquiesing and sitting up against the wall - if it was me, and that escape attempt failed I still be trying to beat the crap out of whoever was bringing me food, and once he found out that they knew about the crash 70 days ago and they have contact with the outside world and there is no rescue party - I would go ballistic - not be in awe that he could show me some TV.

And Sun - they have been living in fear of these people for over two months, she thinks she was attacked by one of them - why didn't she shoot as soon as she saw Colleen? Why did she wait until Colleen was two feet away when she should have obviously been in fear for her life (probably one of the things the others don't know about her - Charlie's attack)?

Sayid - a susposedly military trained soldier and he leaves the only asset they have unguarded? How stupid is it to leave Sun on the boat by herself. You have a way off of the island and you don't protect that? true they thought Desmond was telling the truth about being trapped - but would you believe him? I sure as hell wouldn't and I would at least keep the damn boat in my possession to at least give it a shot.


I just get the feeling that the writers are trying to shove this change your perspective crap down our throats and they are changing the way the crash survivors are behaving and trying to put a good light on the others when it was the exact opposite for the first two seasons.

I told my brother Wednesday night during the closing credits that this show didn't have me as hooked as it used to. Now this doesn't mean that I am going to stop watching, but it does mean that I'm starting to loose a little interest in the show. Last year I was on this site looking for clues and info every Thursday, so far this season I'm just killing time during work.

Now I am reserving judgement because these two episodes could just be a mood setter and it could very easily get back to the show I knew and loved, and I could definitely get hooked again, but I do think that there is a definite shift between last season and this one, and I do agree that it seems a little more soap opra-ish.

evolving the story is different than evolving what the show actually is. Twin Peaks for example was cancelled because, honestly that show was too big for network tv. It was way too weird and it last the amount of episodes that people expected it to. It was a David Lynch tv show for godsake. But, they don't seem to be carrying on the same way they did the first season and the first few eps of the second season. They got lost in their own "coolness" I think. Which i think is in a way hard not to. Kinda like living up to expectations, you want to make the show cooler and cooler. And you just can't do it.

They say they spend times on these boards reading theories and such, which they should because most likely than not, the conclusion to this show will be lackluster. But the conclusion is not what I am watching/excited for in this show. It is the unique characters and cool mythology it originally started to build up. That's what hooked most of you. It was different. Exciting and cool. Now, like most things in pop culture, when a icon begins to degrate it's fans refuse to accept it or freak out. This happened with star wars and the prequels.

The focus has steered away from the bigger picture. I don't feel like I'm even on the same island anymore. I feel like any minute the curtain will be ripped out from underneath us and the magic will show us his slight of hand. I also can't take anymore filler. It seems 75 percent of episodes now are filler. Honestly, they could condense most of these backstories. As much as i like Jack, they could've finished his break-up story last year and not made all the craziness. They could've done the same with Jin and Sun. That is why they almost have to kill Sawyer, because as much as I love that character, he brings nothing in terms of backstory. Are we going to always have some con story/murder story that adds little if not nothing to the "real sawyer" story?

The writing as stated above is becoming less stellar, more filler and less intrigue and more predictability. Again, this show is still light years ahead of it's peers. That being said, TPTB should be ashamed of themselves for letting last season spin out of control in parts and better keep this season nailed down because the ratings resemble that of a cancelled show.
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Chuck, I couldn't agree more. The changes in characters and almost switching in their perspectives change FAR too often for me. Last season If it wasn't for looks I wouldn't of been able to keep a grip on locke and jack because they kept switching their values and what they stood for every other episode. One minute it was the destiny locke and the science jack. Then it was switched roles. Then switched back. But you are correct, after a few hours Jack breaks down and does what they say. He fights back once and is minorly successful, why give up? Doubtful that he has a plan when he is weaping willow all over the place.

As a writer, you need to have the characters grow and that is fine. It's what good storytelling invokes. But to have the characters wildly doing whatever they want regardless of what they have done in the past is really retarded. And that is why they will have Jack take the offer in the end because that is in their minds, against what everyone thinks will happen. And it will "drastically" take the show somewhere else. But taking off Jack or Locke will be the death of this show. They are the two most loved and talked about characters. Whatever they do or say you stick on their every word.

I just hope when TPTB said more action-adventure-romance, they mean we will actually see things happen this year. Like, oh, I don't know ANY of the losties plans actually work. EVER. They always come up with really cool ideas and plans and NEVER execute them. Those ideas and plans are what hooks me half the time. It is what builds things up. And they always fizzle out in the end. Just once let sayid actually go Rambo on these people.

The most amazing thing to me is, there are many people who talk about not watching Lost anymore, and choose to verbalize this (per se) on the Lost chat boards!! I don't know about the rest of you, but I have given up on TV shows before, and I simply stopped tuning in. Why go to a board to say you arent watching anymore?
Many of us have invested far more time and energy in Lost than in other television shows. (I almost never watch series television, so for me to get hooked on a series is a pretty rare commitment.) Watching Lost has never been a passive experience for me. It's meant re-watching episodes, speculating with friends and co-workers and people on the boards, looking up literary allusions, etc. etc.) If I were to quit watching Lost, it would not be a simple matter of not tuning in anymore. It would be a conscious decision to give up on something that I've put a lot of myself into for the last two years.

People are probably not going to seek out a Lost message board simply to say they're not watching anymore, but those of us who have been involved enough in the show to be taking part in message boards in the first place are certainly going to post about it if we decide to stop watching.

After the S3 opening I began to seriously question whether I will continue watching, partly because I found the spirit and quality of the episode to be so markedly different from the first two seasons and partly because I've seriously been put off by all the "season of adventure and romance" hype.

Could it be that this board is supported by the writers, and people are hoping that they see these posts and decide to go in a different direction? .
Quite the contrary. My biggest fear is that the writers have been too heavily influenced by what the fans say. I think the only hope for the series to maintain it's integrity is if the writers do have an overall plan for the show and stick to it.

partly because I've seriously been put off by all the "season of adventure and romance" hype.

everytime i heard a member of cast or crew mention that i groaned. i really didnt want any more crappy romance. apart from a short bit between Jin/Sun at the end of the last episode i havent seen anything to turn my stomach yet. im just dreading returning to the beach and being hit with Charlie and Claire:drowsy:.

i cant help thinking the Lost experience has had a detrimental effect. those wanting more mythology who took part in the experience are way ahead in knowledge to the casual viewer. i dont think theyre going to get too much more mythology for the time being and are going to be disapointed.

i cant help thinking the Lost experience has had a detrimental effect. those wanting more mythology who took part in the experience are way ahead in knowledge to the casual viewer. i dont think theyre going to get too much more mythology for the time being and are going to be disapointed. Well I didn't really take part in the experience, but I wouldn't consider myself a cassual viewer. :p Yeah, I know you didn't mean it that way.

As for the mythology...the mythology is only one part of the show. Yeah, it's a part that I enjoy, but I'm not going to go out of my way for it. I enjoy just sitting back and watching the story unfold. Maybe you are right. Maybe it is the experience that is making so many people dissatisfied right now. Are people comming off of that summer project and expecting more from the show because of it? Maybe, but it also goes with my theory that people that read spoilers are more dissatisfied than people who do not read spoilers. Might be an interesting poll idea.

And by all for the moment I meant it was a very episodic and they were more of a CSI like show where the story arc rarely carried over to the larger scheme of things.


Whaaaa? Sorry but I can't take anything you say seriously when you make this kind of statement.

Besides 24, this is the most anti-episodic show on TV. (At least for now. the success of Lost has spawned other anti-episodic shows like Prison Break, The Nine, Six Degrees, etc...)

And not sure about all of you bout I wont stay for more than 4 maybe 5 seasons before I think that they have taken it way to far in stretching things out.



OMG!! you took the words out of my mouth! The whole "stretching things out" is exactly what the problem is with the show at this point. It's a cash cow.

This little show is now in its third season, and it still hasn't learned any lessons from its past or its legion of loyal, intelligent, fans. Since its inception I've been coming to this website for insight, conversation, or just plain silliness, and found all of it. But there's one thing that bothers me, and I must now count myself as one of the former-fans of the show. There were problems with the pacing and direction of the show from about 3/4 the way through the first season. Many fans and critics picked up on it. What is this problem that just won't die or learn from itself? NO PAYOFF.

This tiring pattern should learn a lesson from Haunted Houses. Sure, they're silly, fictitious, and well, creepy, but here's why they work. You go through this awful, noisy, mysterious, disorienting experience to get to the other side. To go out the exit and look back at the shoddy exit door and the cigarette butts scattered about. To say to your friends "wow, that WAS fun." The payoff. If the haunted house didn't have the payoff and just kept leading you on a seemingly endless array of new crappy mysteries, well, it would just get boring. Which is all I have to say about Lost at this point. It's gotten boring. A 4th-grader could write a 2 page story with no end, and be told to write another two pages, building on the themes already established. No need for explanations about what the hell happened on page 2, no, nevermind that. Here's a new shocking moment to ponder. To hell with it.

What happened to the smoke? the monster? the f-ing bear? I could go on and on, and many of you have, but no, there are no answers. Just more newness to sell advertising until the ratings drop off and they write an ending that feels like a Vegas wedding. Yes, it's there, but damn, is it memorable? Sensible? Have any hint of EFFORT? This is all we have to look forward to for the rest of the run of this series. New mysteries that have no relevance, no substance. A rabbit hole, nothing more. No bottom, just a pointless freefall.

Of course every show/book/movie has plot holes, and I'm not going to begin to list them in this series, but in the season premiere this week, there's a shining example of how loose and silly the writing has gotten. The blonde is talking to Jack through the glass, and at one point asks him where he was flying from when his plane crashed. It wasn't asked in jest, like she knew the answer. It was asked at that moment to push the FLASHBACK plot with the father issues. Of course later in the episode she presents Jack with "the folder" of Jack's life. Gee lady, you think if you're frickin omnicient about the guy's whole life you might be able to find out where the hell he flew on a commercial airliner?

I'm done with this show. I'm sick of toting the line so to speak. It's turned into a parlor trick. If you stay to long, the tricks lose their charm. You've LOST your charm Lost..

First i'm surprised this post has lasted this long without a mod moving it somewhere. I have attempted to post something similar twice now only to see if get moved. Anyway, my main concern (and the one voiced by many of my friends and patients) is that our supposed heroes always lose! As someone mentioned earlier, Sayyid's trap was amateurish at best and of course the "magical" others kicked his 'arse yet again...I was SOOOO shocked....<yawn> Look, either give me something to root about or just end the show already. I don't need anymore flashbacks about Jack's failed marriage or Sun's indiscretions. I get it...they're all losers on and off the island it appears.:undecide:

And not sure about all of you bout I wont stay for more than 4 maybe 5 seasons before I think that they have taken it way to far in stretching things out.

Actually, TPTB have already said that they will only do 4 seasons of Lost. See here: http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=55084&highlight=Carlton+seasons+years

Re: "Wastedmind's" Post-

While he/she's post was far from eloquent or succinct (no offense), it does contain some very valid points.
I've been hooked on LOST since watching the first season on DVD, having not seen it's initial broadcast run. Having heard and read so much about the show prior, I can say that it did fully live up to the hype. So, like all of you, I was glued to my set when S2 rolled around. And it was exciting and interesting. For a while. But as the story continued without significant progress, and the mythology of the show--and the island--became more and more...and MORE convoluted, it most definately became less fun.
I respectfully submit that the writers / producers, though they MAY have had a vision for the show once---and certainly that can change and evolve--have, creatively, painted themselves into a corner.
There are, at this point, simply FAR too many questions still unanswered that I believe can be answered satisfying way. We all know what those questions--many of which still dangle from S1!--are, so there's no need to list them. (BUT I will say that the question of why the "Others" voices have that spooky, barely coherent whisper sound when the castaways hear but don't see them continues to really bug me....) And this time next week I'm sure there will be new questions. Given the narrative format of the show--most big reveals, I think, come in the flashbacks--there is just no way that they can tie up all the loose ends in 5 seasons, as "planned". (Leading to additional seasons or, the special 2-hour TV movie AFTER the series that promises "All of Your Questions Will Be Answered!"
Moreover, problems with story continuity lead me to believe that the show's creators don't necessarily have the whole thing mapped out. Ex: If Desmond knew, as we saw in his flashback, that NOT pushing the button actually makes something bad happen, why did he go along with Locke's plans? If he (Desmond) knew that the environment outside the Hatch didn't make people ill (again, flashback--Kelvin's protective suit...) why did he ask Jack how many of his people had gotten sick? And you mean to tell me that Ethan and Goodwin, even though the "Others" clearly have hightened physical abilities, could run all that way to the crash sites in so little time? Come on. I can suspend my disbelief only so far for so long.
Yes, there have been reveals these first 2 eps. of the season. Mostly in the last 5 minutes of "The Glass Balerina": "Henry's" real name; yes, they have contact with the outside world, et cetera. But, again, I just don't think this can all be concluded in a satisfying way. At which point the producers will likely say something like they "never promised every question would be answered".
But I hope they try. STOP introducing new characters, all of whom will end up getting short shriff in regards to backstory--see: Danielle, Libby, and so on. Start putting a few more of the puzzle pieces together before, well, starting a new puzzle.

Just one man's opinion. And anyway, it's only a TV show.

Thanks.

Again, for those people who didnt read through all the posts, spelling and grammer aside, it's what I was always trying to convey, i get on rants and sometimes the posts can feel like ADD while I try to hit out everything I am thinking. Sorry.

But "And Found" I couldn't agree with you more. New characters need to fall back to where they need to actually be and that is supporting the story and not taking away. I felt that was last seasons biggest problem. They brough a handful of new characters in to what? Kill almost all of them later. We could've found Ecko and Bernard somewhere else if that is all that was going to live. But they force us to like Ana Lucia, which for the most part didn't work, and then they kill her off. This season, I can tell they somewhat learned their lesson from last, but still looks to be more new characters.

I sincerely hope that the writers do start bailing themselves out of some of these plotholes and corners they are putting themselves with the fans. And in a lot of ways this show is becoming like CSI, meaning that alot of these "short plots" that our characters are getting themselves into are opened and solved in the same episode. Having a main story arc is different and yes was refreshing from episodic dramas. But this is starting to become what this show was originally anti. More filler, less answers.

Furthermore, i've read many times that JJ and Damon say at most 4-5 seasons. But i've also read and know that if a shows a hit, it's a hit. ABC will keep milking the cash cow until their isn't anything left. Thats how all series and pop culture icons work.

And being that most of the first part is show and in the can we can't do anything about what is going to happen. But hopefully the writers/producers will perk up and read what people are saying. See the ratings. Read reviews. And fix their show before it looses complete base with what it created.

My fear is: maybe they can't think of any way to feed us small bits of info on the psychic and supernatural mysteries of the island and in one of the last episodes someone will explain it all in a 5 minute monologue.

ameuse, we can only hope that we get some sweet montage + journey (the band) in last five minutes of a few episodes. I really hope that follows a very lost christmas.

First of all, thank you PhillyGirl2873 for posting that link! Knowing that the writers are taking a strong stand against letting the execs drag on the series is exactly what I wanted to know.

I have been setting myself up for disappointment since half-way through Season 2. Too many re-runs and questions that are being answered too slowly has made me skeptical. Now my faith has been restored. I think I will continue watching for the four seasons and give the writers the benefit of the doubt.

In response to some of the other comments made in this thread:

The writers began putting things in just to get people talking, things that will never be answered. It was all for the moment and not for the bigger picture.
That was my initial fear but now I'm hoping that things will be cleverly strung together for us towards the end of the story. I think one of the really fun things about Season 1 is that it felt like we were watching a mystery. We were guessing and speculating and being really captivated by the show ... but in order to make it all seem worthwhile, those burning questions need to be answered.

Now it's true that some questions have been answered, but I think to keep it interesting, the answers need to come more quickly. New questions can be introduced at the same time old questions are being answered. That would keep things fun!

Have they purposely turned the show into a soap opera?
Good question! I hope they won't focus too much on romance because it would take away from the main interest of the show. One of the best things they did (although I was traumatized by it at the time!) was killing off Shannon. There was great chemistry there but if they hadn't ended it as they did, we'd probably be sick of the two by now.

this show didn't have me as hooked as it used to. Now this doesn't mean that I am going to stop watching, but it does mean that I'm starting to loose a little interest in the show. Last year I was on this site looking for clues and info every Thursday, so far this season I'm just killing time during work.
This is exactly how I have been feeling. I'm still watching it because I love the show, but it doesn't seem as exciting as it once was. This is probably due to a lot of different factors, but as I stated earlier, my hope has been renewed knowing that the writers are on our side. They want the story to continue down its natural course as much as we all do.

I agree that the flashbacks are getting a little old, but so far the ones in season 3 have been darker, making us dislike the original cast members a little (Jack's false accusations, Sun's cheating) so I hope they're going somewhere with that.

Enough about me. Back to the show. Season One is where we all fell in love. Where chaos and randomness was King. There was no pre-emptive "this is what this season is about", it was just madness.
What you think?

There was a lot of criticism of the random clues. It was like they just through out there every cliche in the book. When the story becomes 15 twilight zone episodes smooshed into 1 season the credibility of the writers was questioned.

and what did it produce? The most insane hair brain theories TV has ever known. Just read some of them....its like half the viewers had an excuse to go mental. When I read some of theories it reminded me of some of the 911 conspiracy theories..and thats not healthy.

Its so unhealthly viewers are not even taking the facts they give us as facts anymore. It must be very frustrating for the writers to explain certain things, to lay a firmer foundation..and half the viewers question those certainties.

Writers almost never do press conferences to stop people from going off into their own little fantasies..but these gys have to. Partly because they threw out too many clues that are so disconnected they lead to this mania

I say, let them lay a firmer foundation because if a large percentage of you viewers are blowing up frame by frame stills, or analysing audio, they are not going to pay attention to the real point of each scene. Which is exactly what is still happening--as people disgregard clear facts ..right in front of their faces... for the obscure

BTW..just to defend your spelling. I have like a 140 something IQ and my kids spell better than I do. But I guess that makes my spelling IQ real low and other parts of my brain too..haha.

My fear is: maybe they can't think of any way to feed us small bits of info on the psychic and supernatural mysteries of the island and in one of the last episodes someone will explain it all in a 5 minute monologue.

Hee, hee -- Damon and Carlton joked on podcast last season that there was an eight page script under glass in the LOST writer's room where a talking monkey named Joop would reveal EVERYTHING if they and JJ died in a plane crash or something. (Joop went on to become the "mascot" of the Lost Experience online game.)
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I've been following this thread since its beginnng, fascinated by a lot of the comments. They remind me of a lot of the comments I would see at my company's message boards directed at myself. I'm basically TPTB of the publishing division where I work and the fans of our characters would be relentlessly negative towards me. They'd say I didn't know what I was doing, that I had no plan, that I was inconsistent. At a convention I had a fan tell me to my face "what you did was an insut to us." And of course they weren't aware of all the time and energy I would spend doing my best to produce work I thought would make them happy. I see the same thing with fans of LOST: Damon and Carlton are being accused of the same things, treated the same way, even while crafting the finest show on TV, a show that will be studied fifty years from now long after all these other shows that get higher ratings are long, long forgotten. I see what they're doing, what they've accomplished and I am awed by their courage to keep doing it even as they know it makes them look like they don't know what they're doing. At Comic-Con two people told Damon to his face, they were disappointed in Season 2, saying they were "not surprised" that they weren't nominated for an Emmy. I really never undestood the point of that level of negativity. Damon took it with good humor, saying he was disappointed in the shoes of the questioner, at which point the person ran away from the mic.

The writing as stated above is becoming less stellar, more filler and less intrigue and more predictability. Again, this show is still light years ahead of it's peers. That being said, TPTB should be ashamed of themselves for letting last season spin out of control in parts and better keep this season nailed down because the ratings resemble that of a cancelled show.

That's a bold statement. I know you wrote that in the heat of the moment but if Damon and Carlton should be ashamed of Season 2 then 98% of the prodcuers out there who crafted far worse shows should just feel suicidal. Or they would sell their first born child to get the ratings Lost gets even fallen from the lofty heights it once occupied. 16 Million people watched the last episode.... even if this week they fall to #2 in their slot to Criminal Minds, that's still a heck of a lot of people. And ABC is firmly aware that they make more money per capita from that shrunken audience on licensing deals and DVD sales than almost every show on TV. I mean Damon's saying he's gong to have to make a deal with ABC to let him end the show after five seasons (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1097129&postcount=1). So I don't think the show's in danger of cancelation... it's going to end after Season 5 (or 4) anyway.

The changes in characters and almost switching in their perspectives change FAR too often for me. Last season If it wasn't for looks I wouldn't of been able to keep a grip on locke and jack because they kept switching their values and what they stood for every other episode. One minute it was the destiny locke and the science jack. Then it was switched roles. Then switched back. But you are correct, after a few hours Jack breaks down and does what they say. He fights back once and is minorly successful, why give up? Doubtful that he has a plan when he is weaping willow all over the place.

As a writer, you need to have the characters grow and that is fine. It's what good storytelling invokes. But to have the characters wildly doing whatever they want regardless of what they have done in the past is really retarded. And that is why they will have Jack take the offer in the end because that is in their minds, against what everyone thinks will happen. And it will "drastically" take the show somewhere else. But taking off Jack or Locke will be the death of this show. They are the two most loved and talked about characters. Whatever they do or say you stick on their every word.

I just hope when TPTB said more action-adventure-romance, they mean we will actually see things happen this year. Like, oh, I don't know ANY of the losties plans actually work. EVER. They always come up with really cool ideas and plans and NEVER execute them. Those ideas and plans are what hooks me half the time. It is what builds things up. And they always fizzle out in the end. Just once let sayid actually go Rambo on these people.

I agree, I think the writing was inconsistent and that Jack and Locke seemed to waver between being on the offense or on the defense in regards to the Others and then Henry Gale.

But I would argue not liking the romantic elements of the show (as many in this thread have said) or being disappointed that our supposed heroes end up being more human than heroic is more a matter of taste rather than a valid criticism of the show's quality of writing.

I watch a lot of pro wrestling too and a big attraction there is people know how matches are going to end. It feels good expecting and then witnessing the good guys win (eventally). It's the kind of feeling people want in their own lives. But real life's not like that. It's full of uncertainty and bad decisions and human error, which LOST mirrors for better or worse (and I would last season there was a lot of "worse" but a lot more of "better").
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What happened to the smoke? the monster? the f-ing bear? I could go on and on, and many of you have, but no, there are no answers. Just more newness to sell advertising until the ratings drop off and they write an ending that feels like a Vegas wedding. Yes, it's there, but damn, is it memorable? Sensible? Have any hint of EFFORT? This is all we have to look forward to for the rest of the run of this series. New mysteries that have no relevance, no substance. A rabbit hole, nothing more. No bottom, just a pointless freefall.

Of course every show/book/movie has plot holes, and I'm not going to begin to list them in this series, but in the season premiere this week, there's a shining example of how loose and silly the writing has gotten. The blonde is talking to Jack through the glass, and at one point asks him where he was flying from when his plane crashed. It wasn't asked in jest, like she knew the answer. It was asked at that moment to push the FLASHBACK plot with the father issues. Of course later in the episode she presents Jack with "the folder" of Jack's life. Gee lady, you think if you're frickin omnicient about the guy's whole life you might be able to find out where the hell he flew on a commercial airliner?

I'm done with this show. I'm sick of toting the line so to speak. It's turned into a parlor trick. If you stay to long, the tricks lose their charm. You've LOST your charm Lost..

I've gotten my polar bear answer from the blast door map... I think they're cool but I really don't need an Other giving us a lecture on how they experimented on the polar bears to see how they would react to extreme climate change... it'll feel like an episode of NOVA on PBS. What I'm more excited about is how the polar bear created situations that revealed more about Sawyer's and later Michael's characters. Same goes with the smoke monster. Here's a monster that doesn't attack what doesn't fear it. What's the narrative use of it? What situations will that lead to? What will those situations reveal about our Losties? If I get that I'm not going to lose any sleep over how a writhing monster made of smoke works. I don't lose any sleep over how a warp engine works, I just care that it gets the Enterprise where it needs to go. :-)

I'm pretty sure Juliet was feigning ignorance to make Jack feel as if HE had the power. Then, after gaining his trust, by doing a 180 and revealing that she knows (or pretends to know) everything about him after all, she further disorients him and weakens his resolve -- setting him up for the further breaking down he goes through in "The Glass Ballerina." Looking at how these situations work narratively has always helped me to resolve what at first look like inconsistences or bad writing.

Very interesting points on both sides.

Just one minor example, but I think the fact that it's Season 3 and we still don't know what killed the pilot in the Pilot hints at what the show has become (and what it's becoming).

I just became slightly more distrubed when i read on Ew.com that one of the people that were in the hatch may be becoming super-hero. ... I think that is just as silly as anything we have mentioned above and unless there will be a X-men reunion on lostie island i think it's slightly a silly idea.
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I think the reason this show became so wildly popular, especially online, was of course the fan base that had the chance to "choose their own adventure". It let everyone be a writer and a kid with an endless imagination for a while. That is why you got some of the craziest theories out there. But that was part of the show, loving the mystery. And i think the writers wanted to keep that going so they kept this whole, answering questions with more questions thing. So people could always theorize and only continue to do so.

It is almost like that podcast where they talked about the script that would explain all, will literally be the last 3 eps of the show. Where every mystery is just dropped on us at once with ridiculous answers. Or where they simply say, these characters are staying on this island where there use to be experiments and the children of the dharma iniative have crafted a utopian society.

I just hope that these mysteries are indeed just that and aren't the above, lackluster answers. I'm okay with some. But I am finding it harder to believe that most answers will be answers 50/50 scifi and religious. It's becoming more undertones and less straightforwardness. Undertones are good if thats not all you are going to do.

Again, this isn't all about answers it's about the entire show. How it has become a 40 minute show where only the first 5 and last 5 mins actually matter. It has become what silly tid-bit in a backstory can we throw in to make going back to the "Real world" more difficult. It has become less intersting and less mysterious.

i'm inclined to agree that the show is stalled.
i think the plotlines have become "we'll start this direction....wait till you see where this is going!"
...
and then yet another loose, forgotten thread.
I'm about to jump ship here.

First off I have great faith in the writers of this show that they know what they're doing. Can you imagine that ABC would sign on a couple of guys who just said "hey let's start with a plane crash and just see what happens?" for four or five seasons??? I think not!! I think you have to give JJ and Co a little more credit than that! I have this inkling that they know exactly where they're going with all of this and that everything no matter how trivial, insignificant, or STUPID it seems has a definite reason and purpose. If not I shall be sorely disappointed in the end but that's my gut instinct.

Secondly with as large a plot as this is don't you think that there's going to be some lesser moments in it? I mean in a movie there are generally lesser moments that if you looked back at the movie as a whole you might say "well if we had to I suppose we could have cut those pieces out" but they really did have a place and purpose--it just wasn't as major as when we found out that the mysterious man stalking them was the guy we saw next door or whatever (that was totally made up on the spot and very not exciting!).

I would also have to say that I think it's not really fair in the overall scheme of things to be judging the entire season by TWO EPISODES. Can you really do that? I'm sure if you looked you'd find two episodes in the first or second season that weren't quite as exciting as you'd have liked or didn't go quite like you would have liked them to go. This once again goes back to the "you can't please everyone all the time".

To those who are fearful the show won't make it to next season I'd say I'd have to see a much greater drop in numbers watching to make me worried. Lost is such a big show I can't see it going anywhere unexpectedly. I mean take Hope & Faith a short little sitcom. I thought that was quite an amusing little show but obviously it didn't get enough people watching and was cancelled. But you know what? I'll bet it didn't get a FRACTION of the viewers that Lost does. No matter how much you think they're slipping you've got to remember that first off there are still TONS of people watching the show and secondly you're going to have fluctuation in numbers from season to season. It's possible we've just hit the lowest point and now we'll be on our way up from here on out. I just think it's hardly fair to use two episodes of the season as a basis for everything.

:twocents:

From Gregg Nations, at his VIP thread:
There really hasn't been any light moments lately, have there? Maybe soon... but I wouldn't count on it.
That should reassure anyone who was worried this season would be nothing but silly scenes and romance, romance, romance.

People always tell me to have faith and ABC wouldn't let a great show fizzle out. First off, the writers while sometimes clever, usually use a story or plot based off one of their many many favorite books, comics and movies/shows. They even go as far as to come out and put those books in the show. I'm thinking, 3rd policemen, the stand, the giver ect ect. Secondly, a writer/producing team can fizzle out at any moment. We've seen it happen to the greatest series, x-files, star wars ect ect. How many fans are rabid star wars fans and had faith in lucas to make fun prequels? Millions. And to an extent he delievered but most were let down and consider those prequels the worst in the series. So yes great writers can suck and fizzle out.

Now about JJ, did you watch Alias? Because if you did you would know the huge plot holes and silliness that happened to that show which started fantastic and then it started to get off track and then more off track and then it wrecked. JJ is intelligent but seems to start good projects and leave then return to finish them after they lost their fanbase.

Secondly, ABC is a money making company. They are not in it for art. There have been quotes from Damon saying that he hopes that he can end the show around a 4th or 5th season. It is always a hope. And that if the time comes and ABC won't let him he will fight for it. And most likely folks, he will loose. Companies dump writers/producers all the time. They want to keep the money flowing and will do anything to do that til the last penny and if that means JJ/Damon leave then it happens. Most people think that since Damon said he couldn't see it going longer than 4/5 seasons that it's etched in stone. But they ignored the most important part about ABC potentially not letting him do so. And in more interviews he says the same. "For once I wish it could be about art" is along the lines of what he said, then he talked about how it's not about that, which to a big company like disney it isnt. I'd be worried to if I were him.

So folks... what i am saying is this show can easily go on for more than 4/5 season and even without JJ and Damon on it. It could end badly and most likely will only satisfy a small percentage of us. These are things you have to come to terms with.

Remember, Creativity will always suffer when big money is involved.

Posted by MegletTX:
I would also have to say that I think it's not really fair in the overall scheme of things to be judging the entire season by TWO EPISODES. Can you really do that? I'm sure if you looked you'd find two episodes in the first or second season that weren't quite as exciting as you'd have liked or didn't go quite like you would have liked them to go. This once again goes back to the "you can't please everyone all the time".True, but the first two episodes of Seasons 1 & 2 were MUCH stronger than the first two of Season 3. I'll agree that every season will have a couple of rough patches, but to start off with two is rather ominous.

Posted by Wastedmind:
How it has become a 40 minute show where only the first 5 and last 5 mins actually matter.This is pretty much how I feel at this point. I love the characters and I love the show, but right now it feels like the writers are spinning their wheels. They don't want to give away too much, but they aren't filling the space between revelations with interesting action (rock breaking? Sayid's dumbass plan?) or character development (Sun has a penchant for lying? stop the presses).

Remember, Creativity will always suffer when big money is involved.

This really says it all people

Just reading the jumble of opinions here stated as facts shows you how futile it is to expect any response from the creative team. People are judging a season on two episodes, they're saying season two was great compared to those two episodes...or disastrous leaving no foundation for a new season, too much romance and action, not enough romance and action, bad character development, no character development, too many characters, too many unsolved mysteries, not enough mysteries, too light, too dark....and on and on.

This show grips people's imaginations and they seem to feel a personal ownership over it. That right there is such a unique quality it sets the show head and shoulders above others. The constant griping and whining is to be expected I guess in that kind of situation. But it becomes nearly absurd, to the point where a show that is in the top ten of all shows each and every week is said to have "failing" ratings.

I'm sorry but it's hard for me to understand what people are talking about screaming about the tragedy of this season's Lost (after TWO episodes!) and then holding up something like Heroes as an example of something better. The only way we stay awake in my house watching that junk is laughing about all the ways they're ripping off Lost!

And not that anecdotal evidence means anything, but I don't know a single fan, at home, school or work, that isn't digging this season totally and can't wait for each new installment. In fact, I think this may be the most excited most of us have ever been. So it's really important to keep one's own feelings in perspective, and not flatter oneself that they represent anything other than just that.

Yes I did watch Alias or I should say am WATCHING as I haven't finished the series yet. Personally I haven't seen these major holes you are talking about but I'm beginning to think I don't take my TV shows as seriously as some. There was one spot I thought we kind of detoured off of the main plot but when I read about it later I learned that ABC was fussing at the writers about wanting more episodic and less serial action because they were not keeping the audience going. Sound familiar? I just have to wonder, what comes first? The powers-that-be whine over the loss of a million viewers and make the writers change their style and lose TONS of viewers or is it the other way around?
Also, I just watch the show it's not an all consuming thing. I don't think JJ & Co ever meant for us to all put our lives on hold for this show in which case we needn't get so worked up over a few lousy episodes. If you seriously want to quit watching none of us are stopping you...I think it's rather silly personally to just go on tearing a show to bits if it's obvious you are through with it and don't really like it anymore. If you don't like it, show ABC you don't like it by not watching it.

DISCLAIMER: Please let no one be offended by anything I said, I did not mean it in an ugly way or belittling anyone. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I am sharing mine, you are free to share yours and we agree to disagree. :)

Meglet, Duffy... totally agree with you. As I said in my somewhat emotional rant above, I've been on the receving end of negative comments... and I always wondered why our fans, if they were so displeased, would keep buying the work my company put out only to complain on a message board they knew I read. That really didn't accomplish anything.

But everyone has a right to be negative even if its about something they really love... just that negativity should lead to building that target of love back up instead of tearing it down. I think its great that LOST elicits such passionate responses, positive and negative... just goes to show the kind of reach and efect it can have on a such a borad audience.

I don't think JJ & Co ever meant for us to all put our lives on hold for this show
What they MEANT and what has HAPPENED are two different things, though! :wink1:

Couple of general questions:

- Do we know how far in advance they are filming before an episode airs? I just wonder if we all did stop watching when season 4 rolls around, how many episodes would they have done before noticing?

- And this is probably a really naïve question, but do they know how many people are watching? I used to think that there was a portion of the population that was monitored, but I really have no clue. Also, do the numbers only reflect American viewers?

Couple of general questions:

- Do we know how far in advance they are filming before an episode airs? I just wonder if we all did stop watching when season 4 rolls around, how many episodes would they have done before noticing?

- And this is probably a really naïve question, but do they know how many people are watching? I used to think that there was a portion of the population that was monitored, but I really have no clue. Also, do the numbers only reflect American viewers?

1a. According to what Damon said in the last Season 2 podcast, they finished filming the Season 2 Finale a week before it aired. I think they try to film as far ahead as possible (they started filming Season 3 in early July and have not stopped filming new episodes since). But if they need to they can do quick pick-ups and reshoots very close to airing.

1b. At Comic-Con, Damon stated he doesn't want the show to go beyond 5 seasons (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=55084), since it was plotted out as a 5 season storyline at maximum from the very beginning. Indeed, at the same show he went on to say if ABC doesn't let him and Carlton cancel the show on their terms the fans should not watch Season 4, just buy the DVDs and force ABC to cancel it.

2. According to this report (http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/news/networktv/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003254265), Nielson Ratings has estimated LOST has averaged 17.8 Million viewers this season. I'm sure there are companies monitoring the ratings and estimating viewership around the world as well. (I know Lost-Media has on occasion had ratings from the UK, Ireland and Australia.)

Crimson,

As a writer myself critism is the best thing I can receive. On that note I must also add if I created a massive and unique universe/vision for 24 eps. Then in the next season alot of fan reaction began to differ and only enjoy 2/3 of the season and then at the beginning of the third a lot of people began questioning the show, I would prompt a change of pace. They have said tons of times they read these boards which is really great for them. There are soo many intelligent people on here with really thought out ideas of what is going on which in a way could let the writers create a more vast and intelligent universe. But at the same time I can love the original star wars movies and then hate the prequels. Same goes for any series really. I can love someting soo much and when an addition or second series comes out I can turn and hate it and critize it and so will most rabid fans. So, when people get on the boards it's because they remember how the show was and now look to see if there are more people just like them and to rant about it, hoping to change it.

Oh, and to the comment about above if the writers or abc would force the other to change, it'll be ABC. Remember they are the ones that suffer in the public eye. They compete weekly for ratings. It's their money and their stock. So, like many times before if a show starts doing poorly, the real TPTB will step in and take control and fix things. If that doesn't work or fix, cancellation ensues. This happened to Alias. They tried to fix it and JJ came in a little to late and made a pretty good last season but it was all a little to late. Same thing seems to be happening here. JJ wrote an amazing Pilot and directed it. Awesome. Then he was pretty much off on MI3 for a year and a half. Comes back after 40 eps., where now Carlton Cuse seems to have more clout in this show than JJ, and he writes a medicore season 3 premiere.

By the way, shooting wrapped late sept/early oct for like 2 months I believe. They started early to stop early and let people off from Oct-Dec and return in Jan to film the rest of the show. They just filmed the first 6 eps and put enough time in to do effects and reshoots. So sometime in Jan they will return to finish the season. Pretty much they will be a month to a month and a half ahead of each episode. So unlike last season where they were changing things based on fan reaction we won't see that as often especially these first 6.

Thanks for your replies, CrimsonRabbit and Wastedmind.

companies monitoring the ratings and estimating viewership
So I guess if yours is one of the homes being monitored, you'd probably know it. In which case, the rest of us can either choose to watch or not watch and it won't make a difference. :undecide:

So I guess if yours is one of the homes being monitored, you'd probably know it. In which case, the rest of us can either choose to watch or not watch and it won't make a difference. :undecide:

It's my understanding it's a scientifically produced sample, like say, election polling which is usualy accurate +/- 3%. So if you're turning the show on or off, likely someone very representative of you (and thousands like you) is doing the same thing -- or so Nielson Ratings would have us believe. I'm sure there's people who run TV shows that thing the ratings are a totally wrong way of measuring an audience, but it's the best we've got.
100%
Wastedmind, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the amount of people dissatisfied with LOST and why. If the dissatisfaction was so severe (like say along the lines of what happened to Joey or what is happening to Studio 60) then ABC would make changes and frankly I would probably go along with them. But right now, I'm just not seeing where that dissatisfaction would come from. Instead I know there's a lot of people out there also thrilled about everything: the writing, the directing, the acting, and the way the mythology of the show is unfolding on the surface and beneath it.

LOST is not doing as bad (or as good) as most of the people on these boards say. Somewhere in the middle is reality. We are the vocal minority, unlike the fifteen million others out there who have never heard of The Fuselage.com.

As you say people want to go back to the way the show was in the first season. I will say though the first season used symbols of the unknown, like the monster, the (at the time) unseen Others, the hatch and its eye-like window, to great effect. These symbols at the time could've meant anything and as such viewers projected their own beliefs onto them. A personal connection was forged. Once we started discovering what these things actually were, once they started getting less unknown and more specific, they more and more did not conform to a lot of people's beliefs. The connection was broken and so you had a lot of disillusionment in Season 2. At first I thought (then again it could still happen) that they would reintroduce a hatch-like element this season -- something very simple that could be reinterpreted in a million different ways.

I think that's where a lot of the disappointment is really coming from -- but that's just the nature of the beast. That's why origin stories are still the most popular superhero stories to tell, because they still tap into the iconic and universal instead of getting bogged down by decades of accumulated continuity and history.

And that's sort of the double-edged sword: the more answers they provide, the more people may reject them or accept them.

I think everyone following this thread should also read this transcript of a roundtable discussion (http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=2553741&page=1) between Jack Tapper of ABCNEWS and JJ Abrams, Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof. (I think it's pretty clear from it that JJ is as big a part of the show's direction as ever.) There's probably enough in there to soothe as well as infuriate. :biggrin: They seemed very assured of their vision for the show, fan feedback or not.

I know a similar roundtable between the JJ, Damon, Carlton, Stephen King and Doc Jensen will be published shortly in Entertainment Weekly, too.

Crimson, the fact that the ratings and fan populatiry is in the middle is the problem I think. Of course you can't and won't win everyone over but they did a great job with the first season and about half the second. They did a fantastic job. But they also started doing things that made it move toward the said middle ground.

I also understand now that JJ is fully committed and knew that in the previous post, I was just pointing out that he had been MIA since the pilot. Which is fine he was busy but still don't start anything unless you plan on seeing it through til the end ya know?

By the way, good read on the ABC thing... WAAAAY LONG, but good. Wish it were video or podcast.

If you don't mind, may i ask what company you work for? Just curious. Seem to be in the same industry as me.

What they MEANT and what has HAPPENED are two different things, though! :wink1:

All I'm saying is it seems rather silly to me to say "I've invested too much time into this show to just stop watching now"....I mean maybe we need to reconsider our priorities if we're getting so involved in a TV show that we can't just stop watching it when it goes a direction we don't like?? That's just my two cents...

*SEE DISCLAIMER IN PREVIOUS POST*

All I'm saying is it seems rather silly to me to say "I've invested too much time into this show to just stop watching now"....I mean maybe we need to reconsider our priorities if we're getting so involved in a TV show that we can't just stop watching it when it goes a direction we don't like?? That's just my two cents...
Makes perfect sense, Meglet.

Sense has NOTHING to do with us uber-fans' devotion to the show, though! :D

BTW, I lived in Houston for 8 years (1977-85). Don't envy you the humidity! :wink1:

Everyone said the same thing at the beginning of season 2 about how it's so bad now with the hatch, but now everyone seems to have liked season 2.
I like the show still. It's like nothing else on television, to have over 50 episodes now and still keep we wondering could only be done with the show evolving. They can't just sit on the beach the whole time wondering what that monster is. That would be so boring.
I think it will get better, but it just needs to pick up steam and do all this set up with were Jack and them are at and what the others are.

I'd just like to add to the convo that what made The Godfather an American classic was it's use of subdlety. LOST is no different, IMO.

If things are revealed slowly, so what? It's called a hook. It's supposed to bring you back the next week wanting more. The LOST writers are total teases and that's the best thing for a series. If they answered questions left and right, what would have you scrambling to your TV every Wednesday?

WastedMind, if you were truly a writer, you would understand such things.

XBF, I said numerous times in this board if you would've read all the posts that I love a slow reveal. I'm not looking for answers every week or every other. I am looking to some conclusions in general. Almost every "answer" we get is about 60 percent an answer. It always leaves alot of assumption to be done and later it adds on more to that question. It's always a half-assed answer that usually creates 10 sub-questions that'll never be answered. Thats my problem. That and the show has changed alot, again read other posts above. And I was one of the people that red flagged the show around episode 5 last season. And I still believe that last season was a ton of filler and very lackluster in it's arc.

I am not really into the transformation from a show that started and was very different from week to week and then went to a show that has mini-arc's each season, ig last season was the hatch/dharam, this season is the others. I think it puts us in a spot where we only learn "x" amount on said subject. So, if you dislike what they are showing that season you may be turned off.

Also, IMO the godfather was very subtle but in a very boring and slightly re-hashing/repetitive way. I think the acting, directing, cinematagraphy, music, writing all top notch. Just the story became a little too repetitive, but I do acknowledge what it did well.

About the hook arguement, that is again something you want to do occassionally. Now it just feels tacked on. It feels like last weeks hook will be resolved the first 5 mins of this week and this week we will end with a new exciting hook at the last 5 mins. And then ABC will run an exciting promo to entice you to watch the next weeks show.

"I think it will get better, but it just needs to pick up steam and do all this set up with were Jack and them are at and what the others are."

That is a pretty big revalation you are assuming will come in the next few episodes. Exposing who the others are completely is massive in itself, let alone us learning and seeing the escape plan that we are sure someone will attempt to do soon. And it it's never been about people sitting on the beach wondering about the monster, unless you count last season where a few times they did entire episodes dedicated to silliness like Bernards SOS or Hurley and his food distribution. Is that what you want more of? Because if you'd rather have ton more filler rather than wrap up a few questions out of the 100-200 questions that have been posed... go right ahead. Personally I think I'll wait and hope for something to actually happen. No more talk or foiled plans. Something needs to happen.

PS, if these writers understood character development they wouldn't keep switching locke and jacks characters back and forth. One episode Jack refuses to give up hope and tries to break out because he is stubborn. Next day he is whipped and sobbing like a schoolgirl in the corner. Not much of a fight for a leader and a stubborn guy. Then you have locke who all last season didn't know if it was fate that was leading his character or coincidence. So he was on and off.

Characters grow and do change. But not every other day. That is bad writing.

That is a pretty big revalation you are assuming will come in the next few episodes. Exposing who the others are completely is massive in itself, let alone us learning and seeing the escape plan that we are sure someone will attempt to do soon. And it it's never been about people sitting on the beach wondering about the monster, unless you count last season where a few times they did entire episodes dedicated to silliness like Bernards SOS or Hurley and his food distribution. Is that what you want more of? Because if you'd rather have ton more filler rather than wrap up a few questions out of the 100-200 questions that have been posed... go right ahead. Personally I think I'll wait and hope for something to actually happen. No more talk or foiled plans. Something needs to happen.

PS, if these writers understood character development they wouldn't keep switching locke and jacks characters back and forth. One episode Jack refuses to give up hope and tries to break out because he is stubborn. Next day he is whipped and sobbing like a schoolgirl in the corner. Not much of a fight for a leader and a stubborn guy. Then you have locke who all last season didn't know if it was fate that was leading his character or coincidence. So he was on and off.

Characters grow and do change. But not every other day. That is bad writing.


My sentiments exactly. They are playing with the characters too much and there is no continuity and consistency. You feel the same thing for the story as well. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any twist and turns, tricks. Of course that what Lost is. But when you show something contrary to what you showed previously there should be a ration behind. If not, things seems pretty irrational. I know that there may be an explanation to irrationality. This may be one of the mysteries of the island. But sorry I'm not patient enough to watch irrational behaviours of the losties (now that we have the Others, that will be valid for them too I think) for God knows how many years to get a rational answer at the end. I don't know what it is, episodes being written by different people or it is something done deliberately, but it is annoying. Probably bad writing as you said...

These guys have a roadmap. I trust them. ABC trusts them. They give us amazing storytelling week in week out. I have faith in them. I think as a whole we are too spoilt. An average episode of Lost is better than an awesome episode of another show.

Shows develop into other beings as time progresses. These guys DO have a good sense of character development and behaviour.

Jack tried to break out yes. But by the end of the episode he was broken. I put it to you that this was probably the others aim, to break him and his will. How? By going for his weak point, his former wife.

As for Locke last season I again put it to you that he was supposed to be directionless. After the first season where his sole purpose was discovering what was in the hatch he had now become nothing more than a button pusher (something he was in his previous life).
Of course this lead him to question things and muse on coincidence and fate. I think that with the hatch gone a much more "old school" locke will emerge.

The writers/producers has said in many interviews that things have changed and that they "listen" to what the show wants to be. And being that they do that I think their "roadmap" as you called it is very open to change. Which is a good and bad thing. Good because things can change for the better. Bad because well... they weren't sure of their original intentions. This goes for the entire show. Interview after Interview i read these guys seem to contridict themselves. If they don't do that they reveal how they changed things. How henry gale was only going to be in 2 eps then 6 then he became a regular. Now, i must ask. If henry was originally a 2 eps character then became a fulltime and the leader of the others, how would they originally done it? It would've been vastly different. Same with desmond. Originally supposed to be just in 2-3 eps and then now he is a regular. Original intentions changed. I think the "roadmap" is more of an loose outline of the show. I think They created an idea. A intro, middle with a few potential plot lines and a possible ending. But that all has since changed and is changing. I mean look at the writers, each season is different. Same with producers, it seems i see different names as the episodes go on. Again, i'm fine with a show growing, but changing it's intentions is far different than that.

And the fact that ABC trusts them means nothing to me. They will trust anyone as long as ratings are high and money is filling the bank. Christ, they had shows like dancing with the stars on. And if amazing storytelling is rehashing scenarios (how many times will sawyer get pissed off at a small animal? Or will kate switch who she loves?), taking directly from other books and when something is minorly original they don't finish the story. Case and point, Lockes seeemingly pointless backstory this evening, didn't come with the most important part of a story. A conclusion. Something tells me I doubt that the next backstory of his will have the people getting arrested and locke getting out scott free.

And about the character developement is bad. Read any book on writing. It is bad to tamper with a character that much. To greatly change his ideals from episode to episode. It confuses the audience. And this last episode they did it twice. First of all they had him go back to the fate like he was in season 2 then at the end he was edging his was back towards the hunter. And now his newest trait, the new leader. And yes, it was bad to create Jack as a hardass, who only became more hardcore and has been knowingly a stubborn man give up in a manner of hours, especially after a pretty successful escape. Lame. I'd be fine if it were episoes later and it's been days but hours? Come on. That'd be like having sawyer not fight back when he was being treated like an animal. Actually, i'm suprised they did that. Being that the lack of holding onto a characters ideals is becoming rare in this show.

The writers/producers has said in many interviews that things have changed and that they "listen" to what the show wants to be. And being that they do that I think their "roadmap" as you called it is very open to change. Which is a good and bad thing. Good because things can change for the better. Bad because well... they weren't sure of their original intentions. This goes for the entire show. Interview after Interview i read these guys seem to contridict themselves. If they don't do that they reveal how they changed things. How henry gale was only going to be in 2 eps then 6 then he became a regular. Now, i must ask. If henry was originally a 2 eps character then became a fulltime and the leader of the others, how would they originally done it? It would've been vastly different. Same with desmond. Originally supposed to be just in 2-3 eps and then now he is a regular. Original intentions changed. I think the "roadmap" is more of an loose outline of the show. I think They created an idea. A intro, middle with a few potential plot lines and a possible ending. But that all has since changed and is changing. I mean look at the writers, each season is different. Same with producers, it seems i see different names as the episodes go on. Again, i'm fine with a show growing, but changing it's intentions is far different than that.

And the fact that ABC trusts them means nothing to me. They will trust anyone as long as ratings are high and money is filling the bank. Christ, they had shows like dancing with the stars on. And if amazing storytelling is rehashing scenarios (how many times will sawyer get pissed off at a small animal? Or will kate switch who she loves?), taking directly from other books and when something is minorly original they don't finish the story. Case and point, Lockes seeemingly pointless backstory this evening, didn't come with the most important part of a story. A conclusion. Something tells me I doubt that the next backstory of his will have the people getting arrested and locke getting out scott free.

And about the character developement is bad. Read any book on writing. It is bad to tamper with a character that much. To greatly change his ideals from episode to episode. It confuses the audience. And this last episode they did it twice. First of all they had him go back to the fate like he was in season 2 then at the end he was edging his was back towards the hunter. And now his newest trait, the new leader. And yes, it was bad to create Jack as a hardass, who only became more hardcore and has been knowingly a stubborn man give up in a manner of hours, especially after a pretty successful escape. Lame. I'd be fine if it were episoes later and it's been days but hours? Come on. That'd be like having sawyer not fight back when he was being treated like an animal. Actually, i'm suprised they did that. Being that the lack of holding onto a characters ideals is becoming rare in this show.

How did they have locke "go back to the fate" :confused: as you put it?? I saw the Locke that had started to emerge at the back end of last season when he finally gave up pushing the button. Locke has always been a "Hunter". Remember his first flashback episode and his case full of knives? In season 2 he strayed from this path because of the hatch and his devotion to it.

This episode was all about putting Locke back on the path of the hunter. Season 2 was his "crisis of faith".

As for Jack breaking down. Yes he has been "hardcore" in the past but no one has been able to break him down before because they knew nothing about his wife. They didn't have a file on him and every aspect of his life so as to exploit weaknesses. His flashbacks in that episode also served to show us just how emotionally fragile he could get where his former wife was concerned.

Just like Lockes "pointless" flashback in the latest episode served a purpose. It showed his longing for a proper family. It showed his inability to "clean up his own mess" in the past and how that played into doing the same this episode. Plus you had all the great dream imagery. Boone at the top of the escalators mirroring his climb to the plane in Season 1. Locke crawling over the top of the escalators mirroring his dream in ? from the second season.

Since I did complain about the first two episodes, I'll say that I really did enjoy last night's episode. It seemed to have the same feel as the previous seasons, and they continued with Locke's duality of self doubt before the island and strong convictions once he got there (even though the self doubt came back at the end of last season there was a background for it and it made sense - unlike Jack just giving up in a couple of hours behind glass and Sayid making military blunders - although maybe we should have expected that from the Republican Guard) The actions of the characters in this episode fit the vision of how I think they should act according to my interpretation of the first two seasons.

Now next weeks preview left me thinking badly again, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for the first set of episodes before the long break.

On breaking Jack: They really didn't use anything in the actual file. Just said they had it and made a few comments and answered questions Jack had. That's it. If nothing else, Jack would've been more pissed and tried to break aout even harder.

On Lockes Pointless Flashback: It was pointless becasue I don't need another nail hitting the fact that Locke had no daddy and no one after his girlfriend left him. I don't need it. The guy is desperate for someone that cares. I get it. It's been every flashback of his. And yeah, we saw he wanted to "fix" things like jack does. But the problem was, there wasn't a conclusion to what he fixed or didn't fix.

It was about putting locke back into a Hunter/new leadership. But at the beginning of this eps he went started alluding to his more fate feeling that he had at the beginning of last season. And in fact they kinda stirred it all up in a big mess to make a Fate believing-hunter-who will save our fellow losties-and become a new leader. Lame. The new leadership will be set up now so in a few more episodes when Jack is gone it'll be "okay". Lame. Oh, but alteast people have super powers on this show now. God forbid anyone do that for a show with strong and building ratings. Cough:Heroes: Cough.

Don't give me this Heroes wouldn't be around if it wasn't for lost thing... cause heroes wouldn't be around if it wasn't for Marvel Comics. Not Lost.

It's slowly becoming bad, to be blundt. Actually, if you read my posts in the "eh" thread, then you know I think the last few episodes all ready are bad. At this point, the show's losing viewers exponentially. So, TPTB may as well cash in while they can by having spin off shows with the different characters while all still on the island together. We'll see that the show really jumped the shark when the great hunter went hunting a polar bear with a can of hairspray. They may have one more season after this. MAY. If they do what I suggest, it'd really such for the fans at first, but then every one could watch the show with just their favorite characters and the viewership will be huge when the season finale crossovers happen. What do ya think? A bad idea maybe, but bad like gold!

At this point, the show's losing viewers exponentially.Is there a place where we can see these numbers ?

I think the show is doing great. I still tune in every week to see what the heck is going to happen next. Every week there are exciting things going on, things that you are going to wonder about, things that make you love a character or hate a character. There are so many great stories going on right now. The show has been wonderful since the pilot and continues to be.

Is there a place where we can see these numbers ?

Yes, it's inapropriately placed in the "eh" forum. You can also google it.

Actually, if the show were losing viewers "exponentially," each episode would have one-tenth the viewers of the previous episode. I believe LOST is losing viewers arithmetically.

Lost is losing viewers, but i believe it is due mostly to Tivo. A lot of people i know record it, and then watch it on the weekends. A real loss of viewers there.

I also feel the show is going downhill. Episode six better be amazing or else im going to be very disappointed.

Well, a post like this is obviously going to be controversial, so I hope you don't mind some rebuttals.

First of all, it seems to me like your argument is all over the place and contradictory in parts. You say that you liked "chaos and randomness" in the first season. Then you claim to be upset that many season two episodes were just "for the moment and not the bigger picture." This seems contradictory to me. It also seems contradictory to say that you "love the slow reveal" and are not "hurting for answers," but then claim to be tired of the writers always "answering questions with more questions." I hope you can clarify these statements.

As for your predictions about Jack and Juliet, you may be right, you may not be. But for most of the Losties I know, that kind of speculation is what makes the show fun. It's what fuels dozens of message boards and podcast after podcast. Lost is a water cooler show. So if you think you've got your finger on the pulse-- well, maybe you do and maybe you don't. But most people tend to find that to be part of the fun.

Lastly, I would just like to point out that no show can stay mysterious forever. There's no way that an audience would tolerate endless random elements being introduced without some kind of connections being made. People have already been very vocal about the need for answers; in fact, many seem to think they are being provided TOO slowly. I guess the lesson is that old Abe adage-- you can't please all of the people all of the time...

The show is what it is. Whatever episode comes out, there are going to be people that love it and people turned off by it. Last week's premiere was a good example; while about 44% in the poll felt it was one of the best episodes of the series, and others thought is was at least good, there were a lot of complaints from a vocal minority about it. But I think it's a mistake to think it got "off track" at any point. The writers have a vision and a direction for the show, and the problem is that it doesn't always fit the individual viewer's vision. They do what they can to keep as many viewers on board as possible, but they can't please everybody.

I agree 100%. you either love this show or you don't. There's no in between. For me, what makes the show great is you don't really know where its going to go. I can tell you this, no matter how it ends, a good majority of people will think it was a stupid
ending. That's the only problem with keeping people guessing so long. No matter how you end it, it won't make up for all those hours of watching. There will be a Season 4. They are doing well in the ratings. I'll say this show will last 6 seasons.

sheeesh! I was just trying to make a point. But I think the actual equations for what I was looking for L(23x)/4x(325L+33%(y)=8429(l/x)/381> 2/4032. Which is obviously NOT falling exponentially. I hope this clearly shows the ratio of viewers dropping.

Lost is no less watchable than it's ever been for me. I look forward to every episode. I'm intrigued by the posts in this forum and have read every one in this thread. I think that it’s possible to try to read too much into anything. That's what conspiracy theorists thrive on, isn't it?

The Lost show itself is one phenomenon, and The Fuselage is another, separate, phenomenon. You guys rely on the show to fuel your contributions to this board. However - funnily enough - I think the show could actually survive without the Lage!

Lost is its own reality, and cannot always be compared to real life - or to any other TV dramas. It's new and innovative and experimental, and I also believe that it is TV history in the making - and partly because of its huge Internet community following

It's already broken new ground and I hope that it continues to do so. Any story will have plot glitches and Lost will be no exception, but just like history - it is story-telling from many different perspectives, and different people read different things into different situations. We're in a privileged position as viewers as we get to see everyone's perspective - or at least those perspectives that the writers show us. So is there any wonder that we perceive disconnects? If we all witnessed the same incident - we would all report it back differently. So it is with different writers. If one writer takes over the narrative from another we see things through a different lens, and with the different writer’s perspective colouring things. That's normal human experience isn't it? It seems more realistic than to be fed a story from just a single perspective. A single perspective misses nuances and alternative interpretations and would force us to accept a "gospel according to a single angle"!

The Lost drama is capable of satisfying at many different levels. I have to say that wanting specific "scientific" answers to every question is at one end of a very big spectrum. If that's what rocks your boat, then you will have to be a little bit disappointed if the show doesn't always deliver on that level. Maybe watch Myth Busters instead!!

Why should Lost always be about providing Answers - it doesn’t attempt to explain consciousness or whether there is life after death? How about we simply accept that there may be no known answers to some of the stuff that happens in Lost - as in life? Many people take a whole lifetime to find answers, and even then remain mystified at the meaning of things! If folk expect answers to every question than they will be sorely disappointed. Maybe that’s a learning for the main characters and also the audience

At the other end of the spectrum there's the human, interactive stuff. The show consistently delivers in this area, despite the criticisms that some of the flashbacks are repetitive. That's also true to life. Most folk conform to their inner pattern - repeating their same mistakes time and again. In fact it's the breaking of a pattern that will be all the more remarkable when a character finally learns from their experiences and grows and changes. That's why we shouldn't be so critical when flashbacks show characters being themselves - and conforming to type.

Finally, as contributors (or lurkers - as I was until very recently) to this board we are at the more obsessive end of the scale - and we probably identify more with one of the main Lost protagonists - courting danger and going off in search of adventure. So spare a thought for those on the beach. I think the writers have it just right. These people represent the mass of humanity.

Scenario for a beach extra: OK, we're stranded on a beach - Oh good, we have food, shelter and companionship, and some other guys will look after us and make the big decisions - so we'll rely on routine and the mundane things in life. We won't ask too many questions as we don't want the responsibility of figuring out the answers. We'll sit tight, let the guys with the guns protect us, and one day we'll be rescued. Anyway this beats working for a living

Yes, it may seem appalling to us - but can't you see how realistic this is? So maybe Charlie is a closet beach extra at times. Maybe he sometimes just wants to retire into the mundane everyday existence and block out the stuff he can't deal with; be the family man with Claire and Aaron. With all the weird and dangerous stuff that happens on the island, I can't say I blame him.... Hugo and Charlie have a wonderful capacity to block out what they don’t want to remember or deal with and to focus on the trivial – such as a girlfriend or food – how weird is that!!? They will certainly all be suffering post-traumatic stress from the crash too

I’m obsessive about watching Lost and in my opinion it’s like no other TV experience. I think the show has already been where no show has been before, and we could all do with being ‘men of faith’ as well as ‘men of science’ for at least 50% of the time – after all this is phenomenally good escapist entertainment. I continue to believe that it’s going in the right direction – and pleases most of the people most of the time – and that’s good enough for me! :biggrin:

Bravo Notfes53!!! Wonderfully said!! :thumbup:
100%
Makes perfect sense, Meglet.

Sense has NOTHING to do with us uber-fans' devotion to the show, though! :D

BTW, I lived in Houston for 8 years (1977-85). Don't envy you the humidity! :wink1:

Houston is a fabulous place if you can get over the humidity. :biggrin:

Too many people uplift Lost beyond being a TV show. Get past seeing it as an experience and just watch it for what it is. Even at it's worst I think its still one of the best programs on television. (And by no means do I think Season 3 is Lost at it's worst.)

I personally hope it doesn't go beyond four seasons. If the ratings have to drop for it to do that then so be it. I would hate for it to feel watered down just to stretch 9 or 10 seasons.

For me, this show is losing it, because although it's supposed to be character-driven, it's characters aren't psychologically consistent. A character is only a construct, yet we can believe in its actions and motivations and care about it as if it's real. A character's internal consistency is what gives it life. You have to be able to say, this is Jack, and he would behave this way but he wouldn't do that. Otherwise there is no Jack. Or Locke, or Sayid. There is just an actor who performs actions in order to bring about events the writers have mapped out.

Say the writers want to take away the boat or they want the Others to get the boat. Or they want to capture Jack, Kate, and Sawyer. If they are writing well, they should be able to achieve that end without making the characters act out of character or less intelligent than they were originally portrayed. Instead, the trend is becoming more confirmed that the characters will act stupidly and inconsistently in order to serve the plot. Right now I can't honestly say what Kate, Jack, Sawyer, Locke, Sayid, Sun, or Jin will or won't do based on what I know of them. They will do whatever is necessary to serve the plot. That's B grade writing.

Consistency doesn't mean that nothing ever changes. But neither does random change in a character equal character growth or development. The psychology must be believable. It hasn't been. I think some fans fail to notice because all they see is the actor or actress who is hot or cute, but a lot of fans are perceiving these problems.

People tell me I should have faith. I'm willing to have faith and patience if I see good craft along the way, if I don't see continuity errors and ludicrous developments and inconsistencies that cannot be fixed at this point. Well they could be fixed by having an episode where the Wizard steps out from behind the curtain and says, OK, this this and this were mistakes and they don't work and we'rre doing a clean slate.

I would respect it if they tried that. I'm less happy with the constant "the Wizard knows what he's doing, so just keep your green goggles on and the poppies are good" response to valid critiques.

If you've ever taken a creative writing seminar, you know that it's helpful to be told what's not feeling authentic, what seems forced and contrived. It's not the group's job to write the story or dictate where the story will go. The group's job is to give feedback on whether it's well written as it moves along, whether the characters are believable, how the pacing works, and to notice holes in the plots. The Eh thread is doing a great job of pointing out important problems with what has been aired to date. It's good feedback, not hate for the show.

Ed to add:
The X-files eventually overstayed its time, and meandered, and the mythology became cluttered and confusing, but throughout all of that, I NEVER had the sense that Mulder or Scully had lost their identities. I knew them, their motivations, their flaws, their quirks, their fears, their responses. In Season One of Lost, I thought I got to know a great cast of characters, and now they are like puppets on strings, dancing whatever dance of the moment is handed to them.

Say the writers want to take away the boat or they want the Others to get the boat. Or they want to capture Jack, Kate, and Sawyer. If they are writing well, they should be able to achieve that end without making the characters act out of character or less intelligent than they were originally portrayed. Instead, the trend is becoming more confirmed that the characters will act stupidly and inconsistently in order to serve the plot. Right now I can't honestly say what Kate, Jack, Sawyer, Locke, Sayid, Sun, or Jin will or won't do based on what I know of them. They will do whatever is necessary to serve the plot. That's B grade writing.

Consistency doesn't mean that nothing ever changes. But neither does random change in a character equal character growth or development. The psychology must be believable. It hasn't been. I think some fans fail to notice because all they see is the actor or actress who is hot or cute, but a lot of fans are perceiving these problems.



Exactly. The writers are allowing their characters to act irrationally to take the story to where they want, which the destroys the credibility of both the characters and the story. I don't know the grading system of writing but it's BAD writing. There should be consistency even in inconsistency.

I agree that most of the characters are psychologically inconsistent, which creates frequent confusion when trying to make sense out of a scene or episode.
It helps if I think of the characters as being somewhat schizophrenic, because normal, rational people wouldn't be so inconsistent, even when they face constant hardships.

The character of Desmond is one of the few consistent characters, and maybe that's why he's so well-liked by Lost fans (but I think that Scottish accent has something to with his popularity as well).

Contrast the Lost series to the old Star Trek series of the 1960's. The crew of the starship Enterprise found themselves in a new and exciting situation every week, but there was comfort in knowing ahead of time how the characters (Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, etc.) would probably react to certain situations. If one of them went out of character, it was usually because it was relevant to the episode in some way.

Not so with Lost. The beautiful setting of the Island as well as interesting story lines don't really make up for schizo characters.

OFG, glad to haer someone else understands the structure of writing and character developement. Which I have been trying to point out has strayed and has become confusing and is b-grade. I think the arguement "you can't judge season 3 on the first 3 eps" is said, all i can think is, will those people say it at eps 6 and they still feel the same? Bad writing is starting become a constant on this show. The premiere had some of the worst lines written into the story. And moreso it would've served us, the audience, and the story more if they would've opened with a 2 hour premiere so that they could either a) start showing whats happening to everyone all over the island or b)actually move the others and kate, jack and sawyer storyline along.

The constant cutting back and forth that it seems they will be doing this season is already irritating. It is similar, IMO, to the weeks of repeats. I forget what happened weeks before. It's not good story telling.

Maybe it'd of been smarter of them to start with Locke and the beach people and have them not know much of where jack and the others are. And have hurley show up and tell them what happened. So, they are completely in the dark, as are we. They'd be lost and confused without their fearless leader. Things would become a bit more desperate. Especially, if they are still harassed by "natives?" and/or monster/creatures on the island. It'd of added a lot more intensity and mystery to this show.

Then later either do an entire episode recapping what happened to them with the others, similar to the other 48 days. It would create more suspense and mystery. Keeping people intrigued as a "army" is actually built and an intelligent plan and surveilence is taken. It'd of made this whole "action-adventure" season they are talking about a reality. I think action to them is watching Sawyer bust rocks and wrestle for a minute with someone. And to watch Sayid make a horrible military plan that filed. Albeit while we wait for some real story to move somewhere.

Apart from the character issues, I think that major portions of the show have become "unexplainable" in the long run. I'm not talking about little details--big stuff. I've watched this show from the beginning, and during the first season and part of the next I had full faith that it was well thought out. Now I feel they've painted themselves into some inescapable cul de sacs.

I'm not a scientist, so I can handle having a certain amount of wriggle room about EMP's and what they can and cannot do. But I have big problems when people behave contrary to all sense. This especially applies to the DHARMA premise. This is a group of behavioral scientists, we are told, but their own behavior with the Hatch experiment makes no sense.

Now, we didn't know anything about DHARMA or Desmond's history in the hatch or the Pearl station when Season Two opened, so there were many questions we didn't know to ask. "Orientation" left us with a limited set of directions the writers could go as to the real nature and purpose of the Hatch:

1) it's all a mind game and the button does nothing. The Hatchees were lab rats. (The Pearl is another mind game). (Jack's initial POV)

2) The button must be pushed or something will happen, most likely something connected to an actual elecromagnetic anomaly. This seems to be borne out by Dr. Candle's prosthetic arm (the INCIDENT) and the way Jack's key moves towards the wall, and Desmond saying his filling hurts, and Sayid's remarks about Chernobyl.

3) The button must be pushed because the world will blow up otherwise (Desmond's POV)

4) It doesn't matter how absurd the button-pushing set-up is because they're all dead and Hell is full of absurdities. (The Third Policeman solution, remember that 3P was introduced in the Orientation episode when Desmond was getting the hell out of there).

This is the big question of the Hatch plotline: does it matter if you push the button?

Looking at what we were given over the season:
logically the danger shouldn't have been world-threatening, or DHARMA wouldn't have set up "saving the world" with a sleep-deprived 2-man team that's in the dark about what's going on, an old computer with no backup in case of a malfunction, etc.. Come on, keeping the world from blowing up is serious stuff, and it's not believable that scientists would leave it in in the hands of such a rinkydink operation. If it were serious, someone higher up would be minding the store.

We still have some options here that could make sense.
1) The whole thing could be like the "elevator" sequence in the Third Policeman and be a form of hell, purgatory, a dream, a hallucination, a virtual reality. The writers ruled all these answers out with public statements.

2) Something happened to DHARMA so that the knowledge of the hatch was lost. Problem is, the original set-up is still absurd. Surely they could manage to stock it with more than one computer. In 1980, the concept of computer malfunction was alive and well. Plus, being behavioralists, they should have known their team would go a little wacky, etc..

Putting that objection aside, the Hatch has new stuff in it, a new washer, new provisions. So we see that someone still knows about the Hatch who has the power to make plane drops and bring in new appliances. And yet, the guy before Kelvin killed himself, Kelvin wanted to kill himself, and later Desmond wanted to kill himself, but no one is concerned that the team is down to one suicidal guy. No one seems to have come around in 24 years to simply say "this job matters."

This puts us firmly back in the POV we started out with from Jack: behavioral manipulation, i..e. the lab rat set up. This theory is adopted by Locke after he finds the Pearl station. When we see that the Pearl notebooks aren't being read, the idea of an elaborate psychological experiment gains even more credence.

Earlier, "Henry" shows up at the Hatch, and he manages to convince Locke that the button didn't get pushed during Lockdown, yet nothing happened. This act of "Henry's"is a deliberate move and Henry has a brilliant mind, no question. What can explain Henry's motives? We later learn that Henry must have pushed the button and lied about it. So why did Henry push it if Henry thinks it doesn't matter? If Henry thinks the button does something real (real enough to make Henry push it) -- why would he sabotage Locke's belief? Locke's belief in the button is all that's keeping the Hatch from blowing up (as we eventually learn).

Then there's Desmond. We learn at the end of Season 2 that Desmond already witnessed the Hatch starting to come apart around him when he didn't get back in time. Desmond was terrified when the computer got shot in Orientation. But when he returns, he's willing to join up with Locke and actually be in the Hatch when the button doesn't get pushed. The only reason he changes his mind is that once in the Hatch he reads the Pearl logs, but as we find out through his flashback, he already had enough evidence that the button did something real.

Then there's the Failsafe Key. Now for the first time we learn that SOMEONE on high deemed the EM anomaly serious enough to create such a key, BUT the transmission of the key from keeper to keeper has been left to completely random developments. As in, if Desmond hadn't caught Kelvin in a drunk and suicidal mood he wouldn't have learned about it. If Desmond hadn't followed Kelvin, Kelvin would have sailed away with it. And Desmond, who didn't bother to throw it to Jack and explain it when he ran off, happened to come back and be talked into going to the Hatch just when it was needed.

Why aren't there TWO failsafe keys ... preferably the spare one would be neatly hanging on a hook next to the keyhole. Shoot, I have spare keys for everything, but there's only one key for saving the world and no one cares who has it? This is just silly.

Then, the key is turned. The Hatch goes off. In an interview, one of the creative team states that without the failsafe key some sort of planet-sucking black hole would have been generated.

OK, now the big question of Season 2 was answered. It turns out the EM anomaly was real, crashed the plane, could have destroyed the planet. So what are we supposed to make of the whole ridiculous lab rat set-up?

This is a gaping gaping hole in the plot and it's as if we're not supposed to notice it. And in order for us not to notice it, what's happening? The Losties who are at Hatch aftermath central aren't discussing the Hatch, the button, the key, DHARMA, the films, the Pearl, what Henry knew, what Desmond knew. They CAN'T discuss these things because now that Season Two has concluded, all the explanations that might have worked to make this set of facts believable have been ruled out.

This is a huge problem for me. I don't care if all the answers are thrown at me, but when a whole season covers territory that defies explanation, the writers do need to address that. Until that happens, I can't watch this show as anything more than an hour where I suspend disbelief and watch for whatever weird or "cool" stuff will get thrown into the mix this week.

It does NOT help that Desmond called the Hatch destruct an IMPLOSION. Even a non-scientist like myself knows that an implosion would destroy whatever is INSIDE the Hatch. Only an EXPLOSION could possibly hurl fragments and people around the landscape.

And then with Desmond landing naked and Locke becoming psychosomatically mute, these are elements that would belong in a dream or some situation where the psyche is in charge of reality. It's all so Freudian. BUT we've been told LOST is not a dream fantasy, nor a hallucination. Locke and Eko both have visions that give them keys to where real world objects are located --the plane, the Pearl, Eko in the cave. BUT we've been told that the explanations don't involve the supernatural.

It's simply a mess, whether you're a viewer of science or of faith. I feel like Season 3 is just trying to drag us down a new rabbithole in hopes we all forgot Season two over the summer break, and I don't like that at all.

OFG, glad to haer someone else understands the structure of writing and character developement. Which I have been trying to point out has strayed and has become confusing and is b-grade. I think the arguement "you can't judge season 3 on the first 3 eps" is said, all i can think is, will those people say it at eps 6 and they still feel the same?

I don't know... we have to wait to find out. I don't know how anyone can criticize what hasn't happned yet... unless you're Desmond. :biggrin:

Bad writing is starting become a constant on this show. The premiere had some of the worst lines written into the story. And moreso it would've served us, the audience, and the story more if they would've opened with a 2 hour premiere so that they could either a) start showing whats happening to everyone all over the island or b)actually move the others and kate, jack and sawyer storyline along.

The constant cutting back and forth that it seems they will be doing this season is already irritating. It is similar, IMO, to the weeks of repeats. I forget what happened weeks before. It's not good story telling.

I think what you bring up here is all a matter of taste. I for one thought the first three episodes so far have been brilliant. What lines in the first episode are you referring to?

In Man of Science, Man of Faith, Damon on commentary says that his wife was wondering while watching the episode live when they'd get back to the raft with Michael, Sawyer and Jin. Damon explained he felt it would be too much information to show the resolutions of all the finale stoylines at once. I'm sure that's the same line of thinking they applied to the first three episodes of this season. That's a decision that Damon and Carlton went with for better or worse but I see their point of view. If you could recut the first three episodes together how would you do so? I'm sure it could be done, but would it better or worse? Would it be so much information that instead the permeire, even at two hours, would be too cluttered and busy?

I think there's also a need for patience with this show. The Red Sox lines didn't pay off till 1 1/2 years later. That's infuriating yes, but this show's not structured for immediate payoffs but gradual layering upon layers.

Maybe it'd of been smarter of them to start with Locke and the beach people and have them not know much of where jack and the others are. And have hurley show up and tell them what happened. So, they are completely in the dark, as are we. They'd be lost and confused without their fearless leader. Things would become a bit more desperate. Especially, if they are still harassed by "natives?" and/or monster/creatures on the island. It'd of added a lot more intensity and mystery to this show.

That would likely raise it's own set of criticisms: a huge portion of the audience is tied to Jack, Kate and Sawyer. Should Damon and Carlton risk sending the message that Jack, Kate and Sawyer may not appear at all during the season since they didn't show up in the premere? How much of the audience would they lose? Maybe a little, maybe a lot? At the end of the day, Matthew Fox, Evangeline Lilly and Josh Holloway are not-so-arguably the most popular, most marketable stars on the show and a storyline revolving just the three of them in peril would give the show the best possible chance at garnering high premeire ratings.

Then later either do an entire episode recapping what happened to them with the others, similar to the other 48 days. It would create more suspense and mystery. Keeping people intrigued as a "army" is actually built and an intelligent plan and surveilence is taken. It'd of made this whole "action-adventure" season they are talking about a reality. I think action to them is watching Sawyer bust rocks and wrestle for a minute with someone. And to watch Sayid make a horrible military plan that filed. Albeit while we wait for some real story to move somewhere.

I do like your ideas here regarding seeing an army built for the rescue mission... indeed we may see Locke put that together. "Wait, watch and see" as Gregg Nations so often says.

PS: I'm not going to say which company I work for, lest I lose all credibility. :biggrin:
100%
If you've ever taken a creative writing seminar, you know that it's helpful to be told what's not feeling authentic, what seems forced and contrived. It's not the group's job to write the story or dictate where the story will go. The group's job is to give feedback on whether it's well written as it moves along, whether the characters are believable, how the pacing works, and to notice holes in the plots. The Eh thread is doing a great job of pointing out important problems with what has been aired to date. It's good feedback, not hate for the show.

Well, I've taken enough creative writing classes in my life to know that what's authentic for half the room may be false for the other. One of my favorite creative writing teachers taught me to find the people in the class who understood my voice and what I was going for and keep them close. Not everyone will understand... if they all do there's something not individual enough about the voice, something pandering about it.

I do think there's been some inconsistencies in the writing, but that's more about execution than characters acting out of character. Can you cite specific actions and scenes that strike you as incongruous to the characterizations already presented?

I will say, I thought it was weird that Jack at first seemed to feel compassion for Henry while treating his wound and then saved him from Sayid only to seemingly turn on him. A case however coud be made that henry's overall disruptive presence threw Jack and Locke off their game so they didn't know how to act around him, but that is a bit of a cop-out.

Hmm, I have to say I wish people wouldn't keep assuming that if you don't like the direction it's due to a lack of patience. That's just not it ...

If I can make it through Finnegans Wake, Ulysses, Paradise Lost, Moby Dick, the Faerie Queane, etc.., I think no one would say I can't pull the long haul. The payoff at the end isn't what motivates me; I'm in it for the journey, but the quality of the journey --and this is my taste in the show--has gone way way down after a stellar start.

I am happy to let you have your taste if I can have mine. But I am getting a ltttle testy at getting the "have patience" advice. I have far more patience than most for letting something unfold as long as the substance is there.

I have low tolerance for filler. That has nothing to do with being all anxious to get to the end; it has to dowith not liking to sit through footage that isn't interesting on its own merit. Under the umbrella of "not interesting" -- I include plotlines that don't contribute anything, don't tie in with prior episodes, or actually contradict them, and "hooking up" storylines for the sake of having hook-ups. Also the introduction of new characters in a story that already gives too little airtime to the people at the core of the show. (I'm not referring to Michael Emerson, who is stellar in his role).

Why hasn't anyone remembered to ask about Walt and Michael?

Hmm, I have to say I wish people wouldn't keep assuming that if you don't like the direction it's due to a lack of patience. That's just not it ...

If I can make it through Finnegans Wake, Ulysses, Paradise Lost, Moby Dick, the Faerie Queane, etc.., I think no one would say I can't pull the long haul. The payoff at the end isn't what motivates me; I'm in it for the journey, but the quality of the journey --and this is my taste in the show--has gone way way down after a stellar start.

I am happy to let you have your taste if I can have mine. But I am getting a ltttle testy at getting the "have patience" advice. I have far more patience than most for letting something unfold as long as the substance is there.

I have low tolerance for filler. That has nothing to do with being all anxious to get to the end; it has to dowith not liking to sit through footage that isn't interesting on its own merit. Under the umbrella of "not interesting" -- I include plotlines that don't contribute anything, don't tie in with prior episodes, or actually contradict them, and "hooking up" storylines for the sake of having hook-ups. Also the introduction of new characters in a story that already gives too little airtime to the people at the core of the show. (I'm not referring to Michael Emerson, who is stellar in his role).

Why hasn't anyone remembered to ask about Walt and Michael?

All good points... and I didn't mean to say you in particular don't have patience. But when I see a criticism (not yours) like "Why did we have to wait three episodes to see Locke when we could've seen him in the first one" I think that's an an issue of patience. I am EXCITED to see someone as well read as you on these boards.

In the comic book industry we talk all the time about the diferences between comics and movies. One of those big differences is a reader can experience the story and quickly or slowly as they want. It's at their pace, they are in control of the tempo of experience. Televsion is a passive medium and as such we are all enslaved to the whims of Damon, Carlton (and in this case Burky's) notions of timing. There's an inevitable frustation there because not only are we waiting for them to reveal something... but we have no idea if it's worth revealing. In the first season people were willing to wait for it, indeed be excited the more they waited for it, because the hatch was a potent symbol that could've stood for anything and everything. Now? We're waiting to find out how badly Sawyer gets totured. Or we don't know what we're waiting for. There's no fun in that for a lot of people, if they even care. Meanwhile, you can finish Finnigan's Wake in a day... it's all up to you. I think that's where a lot of frustration comes from, the difference between passive and active expereinces. One of my best friends has already refused to watch the show because she knows she'll have to wait for reveals. She wants to experience it like a novel and so will wait for all five seasons to complete and watch it in one go on DVD.

However, I'd like to know which storylines you're talking about precisely that you consider filler? Was it the Hurlley/Libby storyline? Was it Charlie possibly being on drugs? Was it Jin/Sun/Sayid being on the boat?

As a televised medium, there's a huge broadcast audience out there that would want nothing more than to see "hook up" storylines. There's whole threads and lingo (Jaters, Skaters, etc.) devoted to the "shippers". I stay away from that stuff but I'm more than happy to let them have their fun long as I can have mine.

And for all we know they have already talked about Michael and Walt off camera. I remember when everyone was up in arms over why Kate didn' tell anyone about the fake beards in the medical hatch. Then in LT,DA we found out she in fact did, they just didn't show it. I know I didn't care to have them say what happened to Michael and Walt out loud during the show since the audience knew it already, it would have been a waste of my time. Instead they went out of their way to have Desmond explain the hatch imploded, which is something the audience did need clarification on. I don't consider that a big complaint about the show, but I accept there are many like yourself who are frustrated by that lack of on screen reveal.

In prose as opposed to TV, there's all the room in the world to not have those "off-screen" moments. My favorite creative writing teacher termed it "time texture", the ability for prose to inhabit and expand a moment and examine it till it couldn't be examined anymore. We can have pages and pages and devoted to a single action by Stephen Daedelus, a whole book devoted to one day, but, as Gregg Nations has said, TPTB have precisely 42:22 of TV to deliver and need to cut as much as they can. Last I heard they had to cut out twenty minutes out of the premere. (And I heard one of the scenes they cut in Further Instructions was Nikki and Paolo canoodling in Jack's tent -- I gues there's a lot of people here who ar happy they cut that! :biggrin: )

I'm giving them one more episode and then I'm out of here for good. The Glass Ballerina was the nail in the coffin for me.


Did you join the Fuselage just to say that?

I love the show. It's changing but doesn't everything.

Meanwhile, you can finish Finnigan's Wake in a dayLOL, no you can't. It's not a novel. It takes a day to sort of get one page and it's 600 pages long, so that's why I put it in the category of things to get into that move more slowly than Lost.

By filler, I'm referring to not using every second of the limited amount of on-island time in each ep.

I personally don't believe in imagining or assuming off screen conversations on TV or films or novels. If they're referred to in some fashion, they exist. Otherwise, they don't. They don't need to be shown in detail to exist, but they must be referenced. Otherwise the audience is making up part of the story by assuming ..

Example: mystery writers take advantage of our false assumptions. Say a character says, "well I'm off to bed now" and the reader assumes he did go to bed even though the story doesn't SHOW it. And then at the end of the story you find out that rather than going to bed he sneaked off and hit the host over the head with a poker. Any time frame where the writers don't tell you what happened is not the viewers territory to fill in and say "oh they must have discussed the hatch." Maybe. Maybe not.

Whether an audience enjoys seeing hook-ups should have no bearing on a great show. If the show is a cut above run of the mill formulaic TV -- which I believed about Lost and still want to believe -- then the story has certain ground to cover and there's no need to cater to fans' wishes that so and so get together. If Jane Austen had been writing Pride and Prejudice for TV, I suppose she should have caved and brought Elizabeth and Darcy together at their first dance, or second at most. Except, then P&P wouldn't be the great work that it is, nor would it be the great love story that it is.

Did you join the Fuselage just to say that?.
Why would it matter if he/she did join just to express frustration with the series? The truth is that a lot of people who have been faithfully watching for two years are really put off by the show this season, myself included. And it makes sense to come to the Fuselage as a place to find many Lost fans to discuss that frustration with.

The character of Desmond is one of the few consistent characters, and maybe that's why he's so well-liked by Lost fans (but I think that Scottish accent has something to with his popularity as well).
Perhaps his character comes off as more consistent because his story was developed over the course of fewer episodes. He actually had a lot of lines in S2 (more than some of the regulars I believe), but was only in four episodes and had most of his screen time in the 2-hour LTDA. Less time for continuity errors and inconsistencies caused by being in episodes written by different writers.

But when I see a criticism . . . like "Why did we have to wait three episodes to see Locke when we could've seen him in the first one" I think that's an an issue of patience.
I've never been one of the people who have criticized Lost for its so-called "glacial pace." If I can feel that there is an overarching plan for the series and that what we see in individual episodes is consistent with that plan, then I'm fine with the pace being slow. I care much more about Locke/Eko/Desmond than I do about Jack/Kate/Sawyer, but if I had found the first two episodes at all absorbing I wouldn't have been so resentful about having to wait until Ep 3 to find out what happened to the guys in the Swan station. However, when the episodes are not engaging, when I'm bored, find my attention wandering, wonder why the characters are so different, laugh at moments which the writers didn't intend to be funny, and (worst of all) just plain don't care what happens--that's a whole different thing.

And for all we know they have already talked about Michael and Walt off camera. I remember when everyone was up in arms over why Kate didn' tell anyone about the fake beards in the medical hatch. Then in LT,DA we found out she in fact did, they just didn't show it. I know I didn't care to have them say what happened to Michael and Walt out loud during the show since the audience knew it already, it would have been a waste of my time. Instead they went out of their way to have Desmond explain the hatch imploded, which is something the audience did need clarification on.
It's important that we know whether people are telling each other things because the Losties' failure to share information with each other has been an important plot point at times. We need to have some idea of when they're sharing info and when they're concealing it. But the writers have to work it into the scripts in a natural fashion. When Desmond told Hurley that "The failsafe key must have detonated the electromagnetic anomaly -- made the hatch implode"--that simply isn't the way Desmond talks, and it rang totally false. Likewise with the efforts at the end of the episode to show Locke explaining to the remaining Losties about J/K/S being captured. Yes, he has to tell them, but it came off as rushed and forced and unnatural. Compare that to the way Locke explained to Desmond about the Pearl station back in LTDA. All the exposition was there but it came out naturally in the course of their conversation.

I really want Lost to get back on track. It's the only series I watch and I really enjoyed the first two years (yes, even the second season that some people didn't like). For someone like me who seldom watches series television, it's been fun getting together with co-workers on Thursdays to discuss and speculate. The last three Thursdays have just been depressing; there is only one of our group at work who is still enthusiastic about the series, and I'll be surprised if many of them are still watching after the winter hiatus.

Yes, being a writer, I tend not to spellcheck til i finish and that is double when it's late which it was. .

As someone who writes professionally in my job I can vouch for that. In fact, when you write professionally, your spelling tends to regress because you do get used to focusing on the ideas while someone else cleans up the editing. That said, I agree 100% with your complaints about the show. It has jumped the shark due to lack of continuity, poor character development, cheesy subplots, cheap special effects, and sloppy writing (not a reflection on the writers necessarily, but in the final polishing). And this is coming from someone who was a major fan in the first season (you can see my early posts for yourself if you want). I just can't see its going to make it through this season. I am not trying to convert the folks who love the show. You have the right. I'm just saying that the critics are not alone!

After three eppys, I am fascinated by the Otherville story (and J/J/K), and could have lived without the Beach Camp story (except for Desmond). This disturbs me, since I was looking forward to seeing how things were coming out at Beach Camp. But it all fell flat as a pancake. The scene I looked most forward to--Hurley telling the lostaways what happened with The Others--was almost shoved aside as incidental. WTF?! The only moment with Hurley trying to relay the message that rang true was when John physically JERKED with surprise/horror when Hurley mentioned that Fenry was The Others' LEADER. That lasted about 3 seconds. Then John just. . .dismissed Hurley back to camp!

This is insane! Locke gives a 30-second speech about how HE, and he alone, will save J/J/K--and everyone goes back to business-as-usual!

NONE of this makes sense! And if that's supposed to be the point, then TPTB better hurry up and explain WHY. Cuz I have the sneaking suspicion that otherwise, a lot of their casual viewers (making up maybe 90% of their 16.5 million audience) will get on with THEIR business-as-usual after Nov. 8--and not come back on Feb. 7!

I really don't have the energy any more to discuss what I find wrong with Lost at this stage of the game. I've already spent far too many hours chronicling the stunted plotlines, forgotten 'mysteries' (is it really a mystery just to pose a question and never return to it?), inconsistant characters, completely inept protagonists, etc., etc.

So the only thing I'd like to add to this conversation, and take it however you like it, is a little number-crunching I did on the 'Lost fans speak - rate this episode' threads for each week that had them, starting with 'The Long Con', which was the first episode that had the thread. I essentially assigned each voting category a value ('jumped the shark' vote = 1, 'best hour of tv' = 9, etc)... So, theoretically, if everyone voted that a particular episode was the best hour of tv ever broadcast, the episode's average score would be a 9.0. Hopefully you can follow that.

So, on with the episodes:

SEASON TWO:
The Long Con
Average Score = 6.2875
One of Them
Average Score = 5.966942149
Maternity Leave
Average Score = 6.720679012
The Whole Truth
Average Score = 5.478165939
Lockdown
Average Score = 6.908931699
Dave
Average Score = 5.683185841
S.O.S.
Average Score = 5.523550725
Two For the Road
Average Score = 6.563311688
?
Average Score = 6.55799373
Three Minutes
Average Score = 5.990566038
Live Together, Die Alone
Average Score = 6.754

Season totals:
Highest average scoring episode: Lockdown (6.9)
Lowest average scoring episode: The Whole Truth (5.4)
Episode with the most "Best" votes: Live Together, Die Alone (71)
Episode with the most "jumped the shark" votes: Live Together, Die Alone (9)
Season Average Score: 6.2213479

SEASON THREE
A Tale of Two Cities
Average Score = 6.026699029
The Glass ballerina
Average Score = 5.917553191
Further Instructions
Average Score = 5.90560472

Season totals:
Highest average scoring episode: A Tale of Two Cities (6.0)
Lowest average scoring episode: Further Instructions (5.9)
Episode with the most "Best" votes: A Tale of Two Cities/The Glass Ballerina (12)
Episode with the most "jumped the shark" votes: A Tale of Two Cities (3)
Season Average Score: 5.9499523

I'm not suggesting the numbers are indicative of anything other than how the fans at the fuselage are voting, but they certainly do show some trends, if you look at them. There's also an interesting trend in the sheer number of votes each episode has gotten, but then again, of course older episodes would have more votes, since the threads have been around for longer.

Apart from the character issues, I think that major portions of the show have become "unexplainable" in the long run. I'm not talking about little details--big stuff. I've watched this show from the beginning, and during the first season and part of the next I had full faith that it was well thought out. Now I feel they've painted themselves into some inescapable cul de sacs...OFG, this is one of the best posts I have ever read on The Fuselage.

AZJeepDude, wow, that's about the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me here! Thank you!
It's important that we know whether people are telling each other things because the Losties' failure to share information with each other has been an important plot point at times. We need to have some idea of when they're sharing info and when they're concealing it. But the writers have to work it into the scripts in a natural fashion. I'm glad you said this, Andromache. I tried to make the point in the "how did Hurley know the hatch exploded" thread. One theory there is that Locke told Hurley about it offscreen and we're supposed to assume that. (Seems like a continuity error to me.) I think it's wrong to assume that people who as a rule withhold information are telling all and catching each other up. Even Benry noted that they don't talk to each other.

Their knowledge of the island is so compartmentalized... I hope there's a point to that. They're just lacking in the normal impulse to share experiences. A group of castaways facing enemies ought to be pooling knowledge, and most of the time they don't. It's a big frustration for me because it seems psychologically unrealistic.

If they can come up with a reason, cool, I hope that's in the pipeline. (Collectively damaged goods in the trust dept?) I hope it's not simply that certain plots wouldn't come into being if they compared notes with each other!

Regarding the ubiquitous "witholding of information" sickness that all of the survivors seem to have contracted, it would actually make sense if the whole thing was actually a game, with real stakes, that they were all in on (and the kids were whisked off for their safety) -- keeping things to yourself might prove useful if you want to win. But there is nothing I've seen so far that remotely suggests this is what's going on.

LOL, no you can't. It's not a novel. It takes a day to sort of get one page and it's 600 pages long, so that's why I put it in the category of things to get into that move more slowly than Lost.

Heh, that was meant as a joke. One of my old Engish teachers used to joke about Finngan's as a painful experience.

I keep waiting for Joyce to appear in LOST as well... if people throught Third Policeman was something... they haven't seen anything yet.
100%
I really don't have the energy any more to discuss what I find wrong with Lost at this stage of the game. I've already spent far too many hours chronicling the stunted plotlines, forgotten 'mysteries' (is it really a mystery just to pose a question and never return to it?), inconsistant characters, completely inept protagonists, etc., etc.

I too am losing energy defending LOST myself. :biggrin:

But among the biggest mysteries of the first season were these:

The Numbers (answered in the LOST Experience)
The Polar Bears (answered in the Blast Door Map)
The Black Rock (Origin Explained in the Lost Experience, but not how it ended up on the Island)
The Nigerian Plane (Origin Explained in the 23rd Psalm, but not how it ended up on the Island)
What Kate Did (Answered in, well, "What Kate Did")
Why the plane crashed (The Magent of Doom brought it down)
Why the Island brought the Losties to itself in the first place, and what is it exactly (which, if answered would essentially be the end of the show).

We've been promised we'll get the "Why Locke was Paralyzed" this season.

Probably the two biggest mysteries left in my mind are what happened to Christian's body and what's the Monster though we know it attacks what fears it.

The only stunted plotline I can recall is Ana-Lucia and Jack not forming the army... but Gregg Nations explained their priorities changed as soon as they caught Henry/Ben.

My only real problem with consistency was how Jack and Locke treated Henry, but that could be attributed to Henry keeping them confused with his divide and conquer psychology.

And, while it may be a lame explanation, I think if I crash landed on a deserted island surrounded by polar bears, monsters and hostiles, and not know in general where I was, I wouldn't be thinking all that rationally or logically anyway.

Is Desmond's character consistent ? His actions in the season finale contradict those in the season opener. Why ? Because either TPTB didn't know exactly where they were going at the start of Season 2 or the subsequent fleshing out and return of Desmond's character brought about contradictions in the plot.

Problems
* The Mysteries / Questions / Cliffhangers - not being explained, beginning to stack up and thus the mysterious element of the show is beginning to wain.
* The characters - inconsistent, not believable in their reactions / approach to certain events etc.

The two main subjects to hook into Lost and neither is being dealt with adequately. That's where my problems start. It's become..well almost a lie

This thread is a great idea. I just got done expressing my boredom over in the 'Eh' thread 'cause we're not allowed to actually respond to anyone with an opposing viewpoint. But I wanted to add another voice to the critic's front in here.

Some critics are starting to resent not having 'Answers' after all this time. It's important to note that these people are not being 'impatient', they are merely starting to realize that there never will be any answers. Or rather, that the writers have no clue what the answers eventually will be. Since the beginning, we were told that there was this great sweeping plan, and that we should be analyzing screencaps looking for clues, and reading all the books they reference and theorizing about what characters' names mean, because they all fit into the grand scheme. At the same time, they kept talking about how hard it was to have to write, shoot, edit and air the pilot for the show in what, like 2 months or something? Their script kept changing even as they were filming. They have no Lost Master Plan Bible. It's plainly obvious. It's demonstrable in many ways, most notably the S2 premiere and finale. If you go back and watch all the hatch scenes from 2x01,2x02, and 2x03 and then immediately watch the season finale, you're clearly notice all of the inconsistencies. To bring it into even sharper relief (and if you've got a lot of free time), watch the finale specifically for Desmond's flashbacks, then watch episodes 1, 2, and 3, and then watch the island happenings in the finale. So many things--the key, the book, the mural, the things Desmond says to Jack n' Friends about the button ("don't you ever wonder if this is all an experiment?" "every day! even though I know perfectly well it's not because that one time I didn't press the button I was nearly killed!") make it patently obvious that when they wrote the season premiere they had absolutely no idea what would happen in the finale. They put in a photo of a woman as a thread to pick up on later (much like Sayid's photo of a woman, used in pretty much the same way), but no hint of Desmond's prized posession, his suicide book with the world-saving key in it. He just runs off without it. He grab's Penny's photo, sure....but leaves her letter (also in the suicide book with the world-saving key). I could go on and on but I'm going to need a coffee refill.

My point is that, I am not one of the critics who complain about not having 'answers.' As previously stated by others, I am perfectly thrilled to enjoy the journey. My main problem with the show is inconsistencies in the characters, continuity errors, things not making sense, and everything else already detailed in this thread. These problems are glaring. And they are actually linked to the problems with the mythology, and the writers making it up as they go along.

Because there's no plan, the characters need to have these rubber-band personalities so that they can serve the weekly adventures as they're invented on the spot. 'That sailboat needs to go! Sayid, we need you to get it stolen from you. Be stupid!' (The boat, by the way, is my personal shark-jumping moment. There's no way the redshirts on the beach would let Sayid just sail away with their boat. They're still stranded on a desert island, right? Well a sailboat is exactly how one gets off a desert island. There would have been a mutiny over that sailboat. But I digress.) But in a few episodes, they're going to need the Losties to do recieve a radio signal, or succeed in rescuing Jack n Friends, and Sayid will be called upon once again to be like the professor on Gilligan's Island. Sayid's super-smart only when the plot demands. Like needing a computer fixed (an ancient computer that no one's seen in 20 years, no less!) in fifteen minutes.

Just as the critics are accused of needing more patience, I feel an accusation is fair going the other way: I think a lot of people have too much faith in TPTB. Wouldn't you be a little miffed to discover that all this time, they didn't have a clue what was happening on the show? That they didn't know what the monster was until midway through last season when it was shown onscreen for the first time? They definitely didn't know it was a pillar of smoke in the pilot; its shadow on the cockpit window was a solid line. Yet they insisted that they did in fact know what it was. If they know it was made of black smoke, they should have either shown an appropriate shadow, or just not shown a shadow at all.

But where this too-much-faith really manifests itself is when people can just overlook these glaring writing problems. I just can't believe that someone can see Sayid so thoroughly bungle everything in 3x02 and react like, 'Oh wow! Neato!' when every time we've seen Sayid in this show so far he's always been cool-headed and easily the smartest survivor, with extensive knowledge of technology and military strategy. The other time he acted out of character was when he almost shot Henry. Of course we never found out for sure if he was really going to or if it was a good-cop bad-cop routine, but the indication is pretty much that yes, he was so overtaken with rage at the death of his beloved Shannon (whom he'd only known for just over a month and only been familiar with for a couple of weeks), who Henry--I mean the Others--I mean Ana Lucia killed. Oh right, Ana Lucia killed Shannon, and yet Sayid made no move to kill her when he had the chance. No, for some reason he seems to think the Others killed Shannon. It makes absolutely no sense. He's blinded with vengeance over this blond chick whom he barely knew, and he's directing this irrational hatred at people who didn't even do anything to her?

Anyway, I need that coffee refill now. And I apologize if I'm all over the place with this post, I'm awfully hung over you see. *coffee time*

I have to say I agree somewhat with simulatedbear regarding the faith some have in TPTB. The writers have even stated in interviews that they have changed directions, deleted certain plot lines, and arranged relationships and the timeline of answers to mysteries according to the feedback from viewers that they received. If they were so committed to their "vision" then feedback from viewers wouldn't alter that. :rolleyes:

I believe they DO have a general overall theory and WHAT exactly the end or 'answer' to the mystery of LOST is. It's all the inbetween that they are having trouble with.

Regarding character inconsistencies, I blame THAT on the fact that different writers write each episode! What a strange idea - to have different people with different styles of writing script each epi! No wonder the characters don't seem like themselves. They are being reinvented every week by whoever gets the epi that week. :drowsy:

As for Sayid & Shannon --- PLEASE! Are you honestly asking me to believe that a Muslim Iraqi soldier (who was reared in an environment where women wore VERY modest clothing) completely fell in LOVE with a white Christian American girl whose idea of roughing it was having to herself her own pedicure?

Shannon was self-indulgent, shamelessly manipulated people, and wore bikinis to sun herself on the beach while others were making themselves useful going through bags and recovering pieces of wreckage that might help the Losties out in some way.

Sayid held a torch for Nadia for 7 years! Nadia had principles and withstood a LOT of torture to defend them. How do you compare someone like Nadia to Shannon? And how does Sayid drop that 7-year-torch like a hot rock and completely fall for a cute little mall rat to the point that he breaks down in front of a stranger over how much he loved her and how hard it was to bury her??? RIDICULOUS!!!

Regarding the Jack question, I informally polled several people I know and asked, "Could the writers kill off Jack and still have a show?" EVERY ONE of them answered "No!" because they felt he was the main character. I'm not a huge Jack fan so I felt like LOST could continue without him but my husband, who is a biiiiig Jack fan, said if they killed him off he would stop watching the show because that would just prove to him that TPTB don't know what they're doing.

I don't really have an opinion I wish to express on the whole Jack thing, but for the people I polled, it was a really really big issue. :undecide:

I have to say I agree somewhat with simulatedbear regarding the faith some have in TPTB. The writers have even stated in interviews that they have changed directions, deleted certain plot lines, and arranged relationships and the timeline of answers to mysteries according to the feedback from viewers that they received. If they were so committed to their "vision" then feedback from viewers wouldn't alter that. :rolleyes:
...
Regarding the Jack question, I informally polled several people I know and asked, "Could the writers kill off Jack and still have a show?" EVERY ONE of them answered "No!" because they felt he was the main character. I'm not a huge Jack fan so I felt like LOST could continue without him but my husband, who is a biiiiig Jack fan, said if they killed him off he would stop watching the show because that would just prove to him that TPTB don't know what they're doing.

I don't really have an opinion I wish to express on the whole Jack thing, but for the people I polled, it was a really really big issue. :undecide:

I agree with what you said here about the changes and also about the different writers. I have a lot of pros and cons I need to get together before I post my thoughts, but I did want to address the Jack question.

To me, they've already "killed him off" because they've totally changed his personality. I was a huge Jack fan in the beginning and now I'm not that crazy about him -- I just want to reach inside the TV and slap him silly and tell him to STOP SHOUTING!

But I think they've done the same thing with many other characters, too. In the beginning, as each backstory unfolded, I began to feel for each character, but when S2 got here, I lost all my sympathy for most of the characters. Charlie is probably the only one of the original crew that I do have some sympathy for and I know I'll catch some flack for that, but at least it will make Elf and Pace happy. ;)

Shannon was self-indulgent, shamelessly manipulated people, and wore bikinis to sun herself on the beach while others were making themselves useful going through bags and recovering pieces of wreckage that might help the Losties out in some way.


Early in S1 I predicted Shannon would eventually become the strongest woman on the island, transformed by setting and circumstances into an other-buttkicking survivor. Shows what I know :)

Regarding character inconsistencies, I blame THAT on the fact that different writers write each episode! What a strange idea - to have different people with different styles of writing script each epi! No wonder the characters don't seem like themselves. They are being reinvented every week by whoever gets the epi that week. :drowsy:

Bu this is how every televsion show, except for ones written by Aaron Sorkin, are done. Joss Whedon did the same thing on Buffy: he'd usually write the season opener and finale and then two of the most pivotal episodes of that particular season and then let everyone else write the rest. Every word still had to go through him... he acted as an editor for those scripts and would offer up rewrites and lines though. Every script ultimately has way more authors than what it is credited with, and I think that has to do with screenwriters' guild rules.

As Gregg described the process, all the writers go into the writers' room and Damon and Carlton tell everyone what the episode is about. Everyone throws ideas around, and one or two people are picked to take those ideas and turn them into a script. I'm sure on set the director and producers have final say on how that script gets executed or if there's any rewrites or further edits. The there's the further crafting of the show in the editing room which is overseen by Damon, Carlton and Burky. So if there's perceived inconsistencies in character that's all on Damon and Carlton's heads and not on the process by which scripts are written.

And I think on the Season 2 DVDs Maggie Grace and Naveen Andrews say it was actually Naveen's idea Sayid get involved with Shannon because he was the one person on the Island "Miss Amercica" (as he called her on set) would be least expected to get with. Naveen liked that shock aspect of it.

The way I took his quick transfer of affection was he gave up hope he'd ever see Nadia again... the Island offers everone a clean break with their previous life and a fresh start on a new one.
100%
To me, they've already "killed him off" because they've totally changed his personality. I was a huge Jack fan in the beginning and now I'm not that crazy about him -- I just want to reach inside the TV and slap him silly and tell him to STOP SHOUTING!

I think that's what the Others seem to want: to break the hero until he's a screaming, dithering fool who'll do whatever Ben wants for a chance to go home.
100%
They have no Lost Master Plan Bible. It's plainly obvious.

You bring up a lot of inconsistencies that have been nagging at me. However there is indeed a Lost Bible (http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2006/060610_mfe_June_06_JJ_Abrams.html?par=msn_h%7Cesq% 7Cemb%7C):

ESQ: Evangeline Lilly told us that you have an outline for six seasons of Lost. True?

JA: We made a bible when we first started that plotted out arcs of stories over years. We decided early on that Lost wouldn't be about just one answer; these are overlapping stories that connect in some ways and don't connect in others. Lost is never going to be The Sixth Sense.

Damon talks about the Bibe to the Boston globe refers to it here (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2006/10/13/giving_themselves_an_out/) when talking about the Red Sox scene at the end The Glass Ballerina.

But yeah, you're absolutely right, Sayid seems to get more stupid everytime we see him. But he'll kick some butt again (<- Blind Faith )!

I think season 3 is amazing so far, when I watched season 2 I thought the show felt different, which is the same feeling I get with season 3. It took me a while into season 2 to realise this is a good thing, each season evolves; what made season 1 what it was, was the "unknown" factor but obviously you have to start revealing things if the show is to carry on. I think some fans find the proggression a little off-putting but it's what makes the show so brilliant, go with it.
Locke is back on form, what more dya want?!

"Locke is back on form, what more dya want?! "

Exactly, but this is one of the problems. When will he be off form again? It's like the viewers can't form opinions at all about someone's character because thigns might be radically different a few episodes down the line and then radically different again a few episodes more later, leading to fatigue and not caring about the characters ultimately because what is known or learned about the character could be overthrown at any time. Charlie's well-developed back and forth battle with addiction was such an element, as it seemed to reach a satisfying conclusion only to be re-opened and have him turn dark again, then later to turn good again etc. It's great that the writers think surpirses can be so effective if they come out of left field of what is known, but then dont' bother developing the characters a certain way and expect us to sit still when you randomly rip the buildup apart later on...

. They have no Lost Master Plan Bible. It's plainly obvious. It's demonstrable in many ways, most notably the S2 premiere and finale. If you go back and watch all the hatch scenes from 2x01,2x02, and 2x03 and then immediately watch the season finale, you're clearly notice all of the inconsistencies. To bring it into even sharper relief (and if you've got a lot of free time), watch the finale specifically for Desmond's flashbacks, then watch episodes 1, 2, and 3, and then watch the island happenings in the finale. So many things--the key, the book, the mural, the things Desmond says to Jack n' Friends about the button ("don't you ever wonder if this is all an experiment?" "every day! even though I know perfectly well it's not because that one time I didn't press the button I was nearly killed!") make it patently obvious that when they wrote the season premiere they had absolutely no idea what would happen in the finale. They put in a photo of a woman as a thread to pick up on later (much like Sayid's photo of a woman, used in pretty much the same way), but no hint of Desmond's prized posession, his suicide book with the world-saving key in it. He just runs off without it. He grab's Penny's photo, sure....but leaves her letter (also in the suicide book with the world-saving key). I could go on and on but I'm going to need a coffee refill.


I've posted the very same on here ever since the Season 2 finale. It felt like a big fat lie and there is no explanation other than viewing figures and their demands.Thus we now have the introduction of a whole new storyline involving a yacht, some Brazilians covered in snow and man who is famous for playing Jim on Aussie soap Neighbours.

* People want Desmond back
* People want more soap opera, less mythology
* People want the return of Super Locke
* People don't want Jack and Ana Lucia to get it on ( apparently TPTB had planned a love quadrangle with Sawyer and Kate )


Just be true to the original idea. That's all i want...but it's too late.

"Locke is back on form, what more dya want?! "
Exactly, but this is one of the problems. When will he be off form again? It's like the viewers can't form opinions at all about someone's character because thigns might be radically different a few episodes down the line and then radically different again a few episodes more later, leading to fatigue and not caring about the characters ultimately because what is known or learned about the character could be overthrown at any time.
I could not agree MORE! I mean, was I the only person in the world who thought Locke punching Charlie not once but three times was very un-Locke-like behavior??? He has never shown any violence toward any of the Losties except in THAT episode. Wtf?
(I'm purposely discounting the scene where he knocks out Boone because that was not anger-directed but a means to send him on a "vision quest")

~~~ Off topic but doesn't Terry have a freaking awesome bod for a man his age???!!! :w00t:

Early in S1 I predicted Shannon would eventually become the strongest woman on the island, transformed by setting and circumstances into an other-buttkicking survivor. Shows what I know :)
Even though I thought the Sayid/Shannon romance was ridiculously out in left field, I don't want that to come across that I am anti-Shannon.
I LOVE Shannon! :shannon:
She is what you would call a TRUE Survivor-type-personality. She will use any means to survive and with Shannon - she had some pretty nice means to work with. ;)

I SO agree with you that she would have evolved into a very strong female character if she had been allowed to friggin live. She would question things and not just accept whatever the male leader (Jack) told everyone. She did what she wanted to do and nothing and no one could stop her! She could have been SO great ..... :sadwalk:

(And yes, I am a loyal member of N.A.I.L.S. - Not Ashamed I Like Shannon - why do you ask??? :tongue1:)

And I think on the Season 2 DVDs Maggie Grace and Naveen Andrews say it was actually Naveen's idea Sayid get involved with Shannon because he was the one person on the Island would be least expected to get with. Naveen liked that shock aspect of it.
Part of the reason they went that direction is because they had such obvious "chemistry" on set (but then, Naveen seems to have "chemistry" with a lot of women ;) )

* People don't want Jack and Ana Lucia to get it on ( apparently TPTB had planned a love quadrangle with Sawyer and Kate )
Just be true to the original idea. That's all i want...but it's too late.
There again arises that "chemistry" issue .... Fox and Rodriguez had ZERO. But you sure could feel the heat emanating through the screen whenever she got around Sawyer! :D

I agree though, Holmes, I just want them to be true to their original idea. That is, after all, what got us so hooked on LOST in the first place. :undecide:

I [B]It's all the inbetween that they are having trouble with.


I agree with this. I'm not nitpicky about most things. I don't care if the EM pulse can 'really do that' or not. I don't mind character driven (normally mislabelled as 'filler) episodes. I don't demand that it be all island mythology or all relationship epies all day all the time. I don't get frustrated about needing for answers.

I do have problems with them not filling in the gaps. Way back after ATHBCHDI we complained that they weren't looking for Claire. I understand how script writing goes. I know you can't just add three lines of dialogue here or there because it could easily affect what happens three scenes down the road. However one scene of the losties coming out of the jungle tired and bug bitten and complaining about wandering around in circles would have done it. We would have known they did indeed try to look for her and were out of their element. Then we could move on. What we got was Sawyer mentioning 'after what happened' and a rather disjointed conversation between Jack and Sayid on the beach. In WTCMB we did have some continuity with the previous eppie with Charlie's PTS which was fine but we saw very little reaction to the rest of the camp to what had actually happened which was an abduction. That was jarring.

More recently Charlie's behavior after the hatch incident. Now to me it was parallel to the way he behaved in the Season 1 finale...but it was still a bit frustrating to some. He had been through an explosion and was dodging flying forks but here he was acting like all that was an everyday occurence. Did he actually know that D/E/L got out of the hatch ok or not? Was he just too dazed and confused to care? Whatever it was..it just wasn't 'clear' to many viewers.

To me there problem is in transitions. Taking care to make sure that the loose ends are swept up out of the corner. Make it a little tighter in other words.

I agree with this. I'm not nitpicky about most things. I don't care if the EM pulse can 'really do that' or not. I don't mind character driven (normally mislabelled as 'filler) episodes. I don't demand that it be all island mythology or all relationship epies all day all the time. I don't get frustrated about needing for answers.

I do have problems with them not filling in the gaps. Way back after ATHBCHDI we complained that they weren't looking for Claire. I understand how script writing goes. I know you can't just add three lines of dialogue here or there because it could easily affect what happens three scenes down the road. However one scene of the losties coming out of the jungle tired and bug bitten and complaining about wandering around in circles would have done it. We would have known they did indeed try to look for her and were out of their element. Then we could move on. What we got was Sawyer mentioning 'after what happened' and a rather disjointed conversation between Jack and Sayid on the beach. In WTCMB we did have some continuity with the previous eppie with Charlie's PTS which was fine but we saw very little reaction to the rest of the camp to what had actually happened which was an abduction. That was jarring.

More recently Charlie's behavior after the hatch incident. Now to me it was parallel to the way he behaved in the Season 1 finale...but it was still a bit frustrating to some. He had been through an explosion and was dodging flying forks but here he was acting like all that was an everyday occurence. Did he actually know that D/E/L got out of the hatch ok or not? Was he just too dazed and confused to care? Whatever it was..it just wasn't 'clear' to many viewers.

To me there problem is in transitions. Taking care to make sure that the loose ends are swept up out of the corner. Make it a little tighter in other words.

I'd have to say that character behavior would be my top complaint. It would make the "waiting game" for any progress much more tolerable if you had characters talk to each other even once an episode. In Further Instructions it felt like the writers were forced to have the characters speak to the mythology events since it was basically the season premiere for Desmond, Locke and Eko and the rest of the beach people. But even when forced to address the nature of "the island" it comes out in vague and disingenuous. Desmond's interplay with Hurley, and Hurely's interplay with Locke, made it seem like everyone has something better to do. Maybe focus on their interpersonal relationships and group squabbles?

I'm just waiting for another question like Charlie's, "Guys, where are we?" in the pilot episode. I understand that these characters are supposed to be "in the moment" but it would've been nice to have those two new beach characters ask Locke, "Where were you during the blinding light earthquake thing?" Locke wouldn't even have to answer, to merely have the question asked is enough for me. All this stuff may make perfect sense to Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse, but it sure doesn't make any sense to anyone watching the show.

And as I've said before, I try and put myself in a "viewing mode" these days that allows the happenings on Lost to just happen. "It is what it is," kind of thing. That's where I do find the podcasts helpful. If you listened to the most recent one prior to the episode, the execs basically said that we wouldn't find out why Locke was in a wheelchair and we wouldn't find out what happened in the hatch or how they all survived. So I prepared myself to be more confused than before and thus was less... confused?:confused: :biggrin:

Re Charlie --
see, I read his silence after the hatch explosion as Charlie not wanting Locke and Eko to get help or survivr. He's been angry at both of them and he has a spiteful streak. He didn't go talk to Locke until Claire forced him to.

BUT if that was the intention of the writers it wasn't made clear. And whatever Charlie may feel bears no relation to the rest of the camp's nonchalance. Dodging a piece of flying hatch and then not being all freaked out ...

it is getting to be like a comic book. Things happen. Kerpoww!!! And don't be too picky about motivations and realistic responses. There's nothing wrong with comic books, hey, many people LOVE comic books (many of my smart and artistic friends). But it's a different genre than dramatic fiction with different rules of narration ... so which is Lost? It can't have it both ways.

Also, a good TV show needs to be able to stand alone without podcasts or a Lost Experience. I got interested in the Numbers via the actual show, and I don't want to find out the answer only through an internet game I don't have time to get involved in. Nor do I want to feel like I have to prepare myself through podcasts so I can adjust my expectations ... or be prepared for new characters so that the show doesn't have to do the work of introducing them because TPTB did it offscreen.

I watched "Further Instructions" last night and what I would call filler is way too much time spent traversing the jungle. If the writers want to devote that much time to flashback, then the on-island action needs to be tight and fast-paced. If the on-island action is to be paced in a slow fashion so that you can spend a lot of time brushing through bushes ... then trim the flashbacks.

They need to get more real-time actual story and dialogue into an episode, maybe twice as much. They could trim some of the fat from the camera shots. Just focus fewer seconds on a reaction shot, spend fewer sections on someone staring back or clearing their throat before they deliver a response, have Jack pace his cage one less time .... these seconds add up.

Right now, at the end of the hour, not enough has happened on island. I could never stand watching daytime soaps because so little little happened, because everyone talks soo slowly and there are so many dead spots. Having Charlie talk rapid fire was a real plus in this episode, reminds you what they could do if they committed to having snappy dialogue through the entire episode. Same with the Boone scene, good dialogue that kept the scene alive.

It just drives me nuts when I see a character look at another character and 30 seconds ticks away waiting for the person to say something.

Re Charlie --
see, I read his silence after the hatch explosion as Charlie not wanting Locke and Eko to get help or survivr. He's been angry at both of them and he has a spiteful streak. He didn't go talk to Locke until Claire forced him to.

BUT if that was the intention of the writers it wasn't made clear. And whatever Charlie may feel bears no relation to the rest of the camp's nonchalance. Dodging a piece of flying hatch and then not being all freaked out ...

Except for the small fact that it was Charlie who cared enough to try to talk them out of their crazy schemes and then he cared enough to try and help Eko out of the hatch. Then suddenly a few minutes later he doesn't care? If he didn't care..fine. Like you said it wasn't clear..give us some kind of glimmer of something.

And as far as the beach and the flying hatch is concerned why can't they utilize the redshirts more? Just give them a line or two in passing that lets us know they ARE freaked out and asking each other 'what was that all about' but it seems they are sitting around the fire chilling like they do every evening. They might well be talking and scared but if the audience doesn't see it...it didn't happen.


it is getting to be like a comic book. Things happen. Kerpoww!!! And don't be too picky about motivations and realistic responses. There's nothing wrong with comic books, hey, many people LOVE comic books (many of my smart and artistic friends). But it's a different genre than dramatic fiction with different rules of narration ... so which is Lost? It can't have it both ways.

I actually brought this up on another site. We know many on the creative team LOVE and write comic books and we wondered if some of that influence hadn't been carried over to this show. If it is its just not working when it comes to the smaller details and 'fill in the blank' moments.

Why should Lost always be about providing Answers - it doesn’t attempt to explain consciousness or whether there is life after death?



Scenario for a beach extra: OK, we're stranded on a beach - Oh good, we have food, shelter and companionship, and some other guys will look after us and make the big decisions - so we'll rely on routine and the mundane things in life. We won't ask too many questions as we don't want the responsibility of figuring out the answers. We'll sit tight, let the guys with the guns protect us, and one day we'll be rescued. Anyway this beats working for a living


great post. these two points in particular. I've never seen anyone address in a logical fashion why so many of the "red shirts" don't seem to be aggitated 100% of the time. your explanation makes sense. if most of us spent enough time thinking about the things going on around us -- inner city violence, international conflict, disease, homelessness -- we'd be frothing at the mouth. what do we do instead? we watch a fictional television, about fake people with their own problems.

in a sense charlie and claire and the extras are just sitting at home (the beach) going out to eat (canned Dharma preserves) and watching tv (the ocean) waiting, like all of us, for an expected ship to come in that probably never will.

our neighbors may be out working for improvements in the world, asking the tought questions, getting involved in politics and policy and wars and the "big issues", but most of us don't want to see see, or pay attention to the monsters, or the polar bears, or the others around us.

I wonder if the reason they don't use the redshirts more might have to be that they have to pay them if they give them lines? I'm not really sure how the thing works with 'extras'. Maybe someone in the biz could enlighten us on that.

I don't know about the US, but here in NZ:

If an extra is given a line or two they become a 'featured extra' and are paid more.
If a role is cast that has more than a line or two, they may become guest- or co-starring roles. Usually with a back end credit.
If it's a significant guest-starring role they will get front end credit.

Extras are cast from a diffferent talent pool from guest-starring roles. So while someone may get used a lot in the back ground, or walk on part, they usually will never be considered for a larger acting role.

Casting for story significant roles are usually done through casting agencies which specialise in 'talent' actors which already have credited film and tv experience in notable roles.

it is getting to be like a comic book. Things happen. Kerpoww!!! And don't be too picky about motivations and realistic responses. There's nothing wrong with comic books, hey, many people LOVE comic books (many of my smart and artistic friends). But it's a different genre than dramatic fiction with different rules of narration ... so which is Lost? It can't have it both ways.

That's a widely accepted and false stereotype, conflating the superhero genre with the medium of comics.

Comic books is a medium, not a genre. Everything from people dealing with cancer to historical fiction about the 300 Spartans and Martin Luther King have all been dealt with and dealt with well by it. To judge comic books this way is like judging the medium of film based off the buddy comedy genre.

For a look at how comic books are literature, where "Kerpoww" is about as out of place as having a third eye, and realism and character are king, please read books such as Fun Home (http://www.amazon.com/Fun-Home-Tragicomic-Alison-Bechdel/dp/0618477942/sr=8-9/qid=1161574312/ref=sr_1_9/002-7279879-7275248?ie=UTF8&s=books), Blankets (http://www.amazon.com/Blankets-Craig-Thompson/dp/1891830430/sr=1-1/qid=1161574359/ref=sr_1_1/002-7279879-7275248?ie=UTF8&s=books), Palomar (http://www.amazon.com/Palomar-Heartbreak-Soup-Stories-Rockets/dp/1560975393/sr=1-3/qid=1161574384/ref=sr_1_3/002-7279879-7275248?ie=UTF8&s=books) and Maus (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Maus-Survivors-Tale/dp/0679406417/sr=1-1/qid=1161574412/ref=sr_1_1/002-7279879-7275248?ie=UTF8&s=books), which won a Pulitzer. And these books are just the tip of the iceberg.

And besides, as I've pointed out (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=38267), Damon's favorite comic book, The Watchmen, named to Time's Top 100 books since the 1920's alongside Gatsby and Lolita (http://www.time.com/time/2005/100books/0,24459,watchmen,00.html), is a bonafide work of literature. If he learned anything about writing from it, then good for him. (And to be honest, even many modern American superhero comics do not have those rules either, but that's a lot harder to defend.)

I know a lot of people think comic book writing means writing to the lowest common denominator, taking shortcuts or the easy ways out -- being more about cheap thrills than character, consistency or realism. That is often not the case.

Crimson Rabbit,
I tried not to denigrate comic books, one of my best friends is like the guy who does James Joyce and comics (waves). I know they can be art. (And I have read Maus). And there is no one kind of comic book. Maybe I should have said "the kind of comics that Walt appears to be reading."

I could have this all wrong, but I think that a lot of comic books work a bit differently in the way they tell a story. And classic cartoons do the same thing -- which is that they leave their own past behind pretty quickly, and the striking visuals help with that. Something new can happen at any moment. You're more in the moment of the page in front of you than thinking about whether it's consistent with twenty pages back.

Whether or not that's a valid analogy (and I can accept from the experts if it isn't) -- I think Lost is being fairly reckless about not adhering to details of past episodes. This seems not to bother viewers who are always in the NOW and the FUTURE of the show; it's very annoying to viewers who are like me and see the show as a continuum building on facts and characters it establishes as it moves along.

I know it's hard to write serialized fiction because unlike with a book or a film, you don't get to have the whole picture thrown together so you can go through and edit it for internal consistency before you publish. Still, I prefer serial writers who make a rule for themselves that whatever they already established, now they have to work with that as a reality.

I'm a big fan of Edgar Rice Burroughs ... he published in serial form, but at the beginning of say, the Barsoom series, he laid down certain scientific and social rules of that world and he stuck with those throughout the ten or eleven books in the series, while at the same time he managed to cover all sorts of imaginative terrain. So even a pulp fiction writer can manage not to strew loose ends around or forget what happened in book 2 while writing book 3.

Wow. This little thread has grown. Okay. think I caught up. So bare with me and my responses on all things the last 2 pages.

In terms of the writing: I think it has become more pulp in the way it is being written. Pulp meaning that alot of rules that were previously established are being easily replaced and re-written for new plot lines. This happens all the time in comic-books that are running series (think X-men, Spider-man ect) and less (The Watchmen, 30 days of night ect). The difference is Crimson, one is considered Graphic Novels that would be the more serious, book like of comics and the other would be considered the weekly action-comics. And in running series like X-men you have an established mythology for "x" amount of time and then it gets changed/altered or re-written as it goes along. The vision changes and things that happened in the past aren't acknowledged anymore.

The characters are the biggest problem with this story. Agree or disagree that is what has people arguing most of the time. This is because the characters do flip flop so often to serve the plot. One episode you have Kate all lovey dovey for Jack and the next day you have her all over Sawyer. And you do this for 50 episodes. You also have Locke which has became the most flawed character in this show. Every week you will see him change to serve the plot. Is he a hunter? A true believer of the island? Deeply involved in fate? A leader? Misguided? Or just crazy? Find out next week when we change it back to something else! But in all seriousness we fell in love with season 1 where we learned who these characters are and how they acted. They all had different thigns going on and were an unlikely group. But not things have done a complete 360 and now I barely recognize these characters. If it wasn't for the same actors they could be completely new characters. The actors I think are what is keeping alot of people glued onto their sets. Not the characters anymore.

Story: My problem here is the last season and this season are being labled by TPTB themed season. What I mean is last season was the dharma/hatch this season is the others. Not like the first season, where we got a little bit here and a little bit there and it seemed to work out for everyone. Now what we have is a 85 percent focus on just the others. So, for the lot of us that aren't all that interested in the others storyline we are stuck. Waiting and hoping each week for something better to come along.

You kind of write yourself into a corner doing these themed seasons. If you start off that way and come episode 8 you change drastically you might confuse to many people. But then if you dont have a strong finale or last 5 episodes that actually wraps that theme up then you leave to many questions that will never be addressed or answered. The amount for last season were incredible.

TPTB: Their road map as we call it could not possibly exist in any form the way most people think. What it is is a story outline. An outline that is at best a "barebone" structure that will lable the most trivial of events. Example under the season 2 you'd have "man in hatch, push the button, find and survive with tailies, find more hatchets, don't push button, explosion". And then from their you will in the holes or move events around. This allows for a lot of change and potential continuity problems. When writing a feature script it's suggested that you do a outline, that explains all the main events, from beginning to end. But in a series like this, that could go on for who knows how long, you have to kind of spread things out further. You have to move things and apparantly if they do listen to these boards and change things based off them, you have to be ready to change entirely to your audiences approval. Now changing things based off your audience can be a good thing or bad. Last season, I dont think we saw that much happen. But what it does is make your audience feel like they are writing the show and their is no actual control over it. Which is a bad thing to have happen.

I'm also sure that this 3 month break we will have, hopefully will be heavily monitored by TPTB because this will be a pivitol point in the shows history. The viewership is slightly slipping, more people are complainging on the boards and the changes to the show are drastic. This would be a very important time to look at reactions and read them carefully. And compare them with what you intend on doing in future episodes.

Regarding Actors: What Zoriah stated about "red shirts" being paid is pretty accurate for the states. But with a show with this much money involved, paying extras for a few lines of dialog every now and then isn't a big deal.

Giving extras lines just for the sake of it is pointless! There are so many main characters to have air-time that giving extras lines would be annoying and slow down the pace of the show, as with a few other things on LOST; you have to assume some things have happened or been said (such as; "redshirts" asking questions etc) because they can't include every little thing. Its like with the food, you rarely see anyone catching fish, hunting boar etc but we have to assume its happening because who wants to see Jin fishing for a whole scene every single episode?

Wastedmind, I think your occupation has its hazzards. My daughter is an actress and now looks at TV, movies and stage in a whole different light than before she began acting. She understands the workings of the production more than she did and it does, in most cases, ruin it for her because she knows what the deal is. However, she is a huge fan of this show and it keeps her on her toes and guessing all the time. I share her view of the show. I've never been dissappointed with one single eppy and it always keeps me guessing and surprises me left and right. While I have 12+ years in the Entertainment Business, I've managed to keep my pixie dust (as I call it) because the workings of a production excite me so they don't tip me off. Each time I visit a set or talk shop, it's like the first time for me because I love it so much. Not saying that you don't, but some people just take that 'behind the scenes' knowledge and use it differently than others do.

So, to sum it up ... I love this show and have no dissappointments with any of it. It still has me just as riveted to my seat in S3 as it did in S1. :biggrin:

Also, a good TV show needs to be able to stand alone without podcasts or a Lost Experience. I got interested in the Numbers via the actual show, and I don't want to find out the answer only through an internet game I don't have time to get involved in. Nor do I want to feel like I have to prepare myself through podcasts so I can adjust my expectations ... or be prepared for new characters so that the show doesn't have to do the work of introducing them because TPTB did it offscreen.

I seem to be in the minority (at least judging by the threads I read) of never having listened to a podcast, looked at Lost Experience or any other Lost-related sites, or even read an interview with Damon, Lindelhof, Abrams, etc. My extra-show activities have been (mostly lurking) here and a couple other Lost boards.

I don't know if this necessary intermingling with other electronic media for answers or clues to a television show is a sign of things to come in mainstream TV, or if it is a key ingredient of LOST as cult TV (I'd link to your Gregg Nations/VIP post on the subject, CR, but I just spent ten minutes trying it and kept messing up:( ). I lean toward the latter. I may be a mainstream viewer who got caught up in a cult show without realizing tantalizing questions about the ubiquitous numbers and the mysterious Black Rock would only be answered outside my TV screen.

Comic Books: In some ways the TV and comic media move closer together. Part of Watchmen's magic is the continual visual and literary echoes which keep me turning back the pages every time I read it. I'm still in the VCR/dinosaur stage of development, but apparently DVD and DVR make possible that "page turning" in a less awkward fashion than with video tape. That opening to "Further Instructions" familiar? Turn back to page one.

One of these days I'll get around to reading Scott McCloud's books on the matter :)

I probably shouldn't have assumed anyone hadn't read those books, especially Maus (it seems everyone who's never even heard of a comic book has at least read Maus. :-) ) I do get emotional when the medium I work in gets any sort of negative play, even if it is deserved. Honestly the only time I saw a "Kerplow!" in a comic book the last five years was a recent Batman issue where he is combating fine art theives in a modern art museum. All the modern art however are rip-offs of comic book panels, like "Kerplow!" So as Batman is punching a guy, you see "kerplow!" but its actually a piece of art hanging in the background of the panel -- just really self-aware, self-referential, and self-depricating all at once.

But, yeah, OFG and Wastedmind are correct here that perhaps what's going on is the misapplication of pulp narration. I tell a lot of my friends that LOST isn't beholden to any genre, thay it's post-genre and trying to almost fashion new genre rules for itself. My friends are put off by this and don't want to deal with it, instead waiting till Season 5 when the show's done -- they'll watch all the shows in one go and not have to worry about the frustrating neo-pulpiness of what's going on. Everyone knows what to expect from a western, a mobster flick, etc. No one know what to expect from LOST which Damon, Carlton and JJ seem to enjoy (as that NightLine interview demonstrated). But that inevitably leads to a lot of people realizing they're watching something completely different than what they first thought -- not really a good thing for a commercial TV venture.

I really do believe Damon and JJ are trying to create a new pulp rules of fiction for televsion, but as with any transition there's growing pains and failed experiements.

And touching on what Noble Savage brings up, a cult show shouldn't need to be understood by anything outside the bounds of it. I watched nearly every episode of Star Trek: Next Gen and never once bought, read or saw anything related to it outside the show. LOST is different because I do get the sense JJ, Damon and Carlton do not look at LOST as a TV show but as a brand of ideas that can operate on multiple platforms. (There will be cell phone videos going on during the hiatus and then a video game next June.) They have always said they want each plaform experience to be comprehensible without knowledge of any of the others. In their press releases for it, they even said the Lost Experience could've been played by people who never watched the show! That's somewhat true, but in reality it would've been a very confusing time. Really all anyone needs to catch up to what happened is watch the first three minutes or so of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PPCCcXarkc) and you're where the Experience players are at.

But with even that explanation of the NUMBERS, and the explanation that the Black Rock was a ship captained by Magnus Hanso (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:New_world_sea_traders_excerpt.jpg), I don't think my enjoyment of the show is any lessened by not knowing those specifics. In many ways I think the Swan's Orientation film did too much to give specifics. A lot of people didn't know what to make of it. A lot of others just didn't care.

But playing the Experience I ended up having to get together with people in the "real world" who I never wouldn't met otherwise, which was reward enough.

Jb, I think my job as a filmmaker does indeed yield more questions than the average film-tv-goer would. But in my experience these questions are only brought up when a show begins to slack. I started getting into this feild because i loved and respected it in all curiousity. I wanted to bring alot of the same feelings that masterful writer/directors do.

That being said, when a film or a show begins to differ from it's original intentions or when TPTB state numerous things on record and then do opposite or completely change that statement, I become less trustworthy of who is running the show. And then less trustworthy of who is writing the show. I am in it for the journey because the journey is what counts in a story. It's the escape and the excitement that brings one to enjoy the experience. Not the ending. Just that journey seems to be stopping off for a little site seeing that I'd prefer to not be involved in, ya know?

Also, I strongly agree about the podcasts, interviews and lost experience seeming kind of weak for an average viewer. IMO, requiring extra digging from TPTB is kind of like when a movie ends, roles the first credit or two, and then shows a 30 second scene of like someone not being dead or doing something else. I take those as not really part of the actual story because it concluded and the credits began to role. When something is not presented in the actual show (i really dont need to see the redshirts just acknowledge it somehow verbally), I believe that it doesnt' really count in the actual plot. Much like I think the lost experience was just a way to give people more mythology wtihout actually giving them anything. They created new characters and gave a few familuar names to tie people over til the new season. But really they didn't give you anything real for the actual show. I think it was just something to keep your brain ticking and even more I think it was to throw the hardcore fans off who would be scouring the earth for answers. Which if it is the case, I give TPTB props in that aspect because throwing off most the people that write daily on the boards and theorize is a smart move. Also, I think when they do things like The Lost Experience, they are telling you to "play the game", same with the bonus disc on season 2. It is trying to get you to "play along". I think these things are the clues, not what they are telling you or showing you. The fact that they are games/experiments are the clues IMO.

Jb, I think my job as a filmmaker does indeed yield more questions than the average film-tv-goer would. But in my experience these questions are only brought up when a show begins to slack. I started getting into this feild because i loved and respected it in all curiousity. I wanted to bring alot of the same feelings that masterful writer/directors do.

That being said, when a film or a show begins to differ from it's original intentions or when TPTB state numerous things on record and then do opposite or completely change that statement, I become less trustworthy of who is running the show. And then less trustworthy of who is writing the show. I am in it for the journey because the journey is what counts in a story. It's the escape and the excitement that brings one to enjoy the experience. Not the ending. Just that journey seems to be stopping off for a little site seeing that I'd prefer to not be involved in, ya know?

Also, I strongly agree about the podcasts, interviews and lost experience seeming kind of weak for an average viewer. IMO, requiring extra digging from TPTB is kind of like when a movie ends, roles the first credit or two, and then shows a 30 second scene of like someone not being dead or doing something else. I take those as not really part of the actual story because it concluded and the credits began to role. When something is not presented in the actual show (i really dont need to see the redshirts just acknowledge it somehow verbally), I believe that it doesnt' really count in the actual plot. Much like I think the lost experience was just a way to give people more mythology wtihout actually giving them anything. They created new characters and gave a few familuar names to tie people over til the new season. But really they didn't give you anything real for the actual show. I think it was just something to keep your brain ticking and even more I think it was to throw the hardcore fans off who would be scouring the earth for answers. Which if it is the case, I give TPTB props in that aspect because throwing off most the people that write daily on the boards and theorize is a smart move. Also, I think when they do things like The Lost Experience, they are telling you to "play the game", same with the bonus disc on season 2. It is trying to get you to "play along". I think these things are the clues, not what they are telling you or showing you. The fact that they are games/experiments are the clues IMO.I get what you're saying and I've read several posts that agree with you but I don't see it as slacking at all. As for the stuff TPTB say and then the show not doing it, I chalk it up to throwing us off the scent. I am also a writer and I have found that often times I have a story in my head and even have written the synopsis but as I write it out I find that things should be changed to improve the story. I don't see this as any different than my writing. A story this long will evolve ... it's only natural. The story becomes organic, in the sense of the word, and so can grow, shrink, move, or stand still in places not thought possible or good in the beginning.

What I do is follow what's on the show, and not what I read or see off of the show. I do read spoilers and I do, sometimes, listen to pod casts, I read a lot of other boards and do my own inde-research but it all boils down to what I finally see on the show. If that keeps the storyline moving forward then I don't care about what other things I may have seen, read or been told. And for me the show is right on track. :biggrin:

I understand that story evolves as you work through it. As you said, when you write that the story changes, grows, evolves into potentially something different. I've started writing a drama that turned into a deep thriller/horror story before it ended and it served that plot better. I understand that working out kinks changes things and outside input will also do so.

But when you go on record stating things that don't come forward or completely change then that is bad in terms of stating things on the public record. And I also think that in this case the story evolves in the writers room. All the 10 writers and the producers mual over each and every detail of the eppys and decide where to go from their. When two people are picked to go and write the draft for eppy 4, they'll bring it back and show it to everyone and notes and rewrites by the other writers will go forth. And then they will read through it again and try to tighten it up once more. This is standard revision/rewrite.

It is also different in my opinion to change the structure, writing style, character developement/growth and story arcs. That is far far different than having a story grow and be rewritten and revisioned. When you change how the show is and almost look at each season as a different style/show as a whole you loose touch with the original intentions and ideas behind the show. I this this is what is happening. You have characters being altered to best serve the plot and to move the story. You don't bring in outside elements any longer to further it. You only repeat past moves that people liked (ig polar bear, hatchs, others, new myseterious characters i'm thinking desmond and ben). Also place more filler eppys in the way of actual story and now it seems that the CSI mode of writing is taking over. Whereas the beginning of the episode we are given Locke not being able to talk, then immediately knows that he needs to take drugs and meditate where he sees he needs to save ecko. Find ecko. Saves him. Brings him back to the beach, end of story. All along the way they will slugishly drop a few hints and nods, albeit previously taken care of in other eppys, I'm thinking lockes character changing back and forth, seeing that locke is in need to be loved and the polar bear attack.

The lack of necessary flashbacks are becomnig more prevelant. It use to be every now and again we would have a flashback that gave us next to nothing but a tad more character developement. But atleast those flashbacks would have some relevance to what is going on the island, these last 3 have been very distant from what has been going on the actual island. They have made a few nods in terms of some character beats, like sun starring at jin as she hides yet another secret from him. But these are not only not tying up previous stories in flashbacks but aren't giving us things that we are still wanting to know. We still don't have the locke getting in a wheel chair flashback that could've easily been last weeks flashback. And considering TPTB said last year we would get it and we didn't. Why? Because that is just one of the bigger questions they won't want to answer til we have nothing but 10 eppys full of answers.

Also, when the producers say something like "this will be very action-adventure-romance season" and in the first 3 and looks to be 4 eppys there is no more action-adventure-romance than any other eppys I am starting to doubt that we will see any cool mini-wars with the others. I am thinking action = mock-torture scenes, romance = sawyer making out with kate and adventure is locke fighting polar bear with hair spray he happened to have handy on the beach.

Can anyone also answer me this; when something implodes doesn't it destroy everything inside it? Thus killing locke, ecko, charlie and desmond in the process? Or can you not kill main characters in this show? Because even one of them dying would've been at least acceptable but none? Kind of hard to believe. Guess you can try as hard as you want to kill main characters but they just don't die. Oh, and don't give me the shannon, boone, ana and libby were main characters. Their deaths were only a plot device.

I also think that saying the writers intended to do this or that or throw us off here is all to forgiving which is understandable. When something you love and care about so much changes for the worse you will try and find a way to reason that it's intended and will have relavance later or was on purpose. Sometimes bad writing is just that. I remember people talking about how even though Matrix 2 was just alright, that the 3rd would be amazing and the writers were just savnig everythign for the final movie.. and then no, they weren't. It was just two crappy add-ons that took from an original idea and tried to imitate itself and did so horribly. Same can be said for the star wars prequels. When people refused to accept the first installment they said it was alright because he'll be older and the next will be better. And it was still full of filler and things that just allowed another movie to be made. And then when you got the conclusion, action aside, most were let down with the story. It is the same thing that is happening here. I can tell myself that the writers meant to do something but ultimately they are just trying to do a good job, while still trying to win viewers and earn a big paycheck

What the show is becoming..... A little hard to follow at times! ;)

But that's ok I can catch up by watching season 1-2 dvd's.:drowsy:

Thanks Wasted Mind, Crimson Rabbit, and Noble Savage, for your very helpful knowledgable explanations about pulp fiction and comics. I imagine I'm older than you and I grew up with the old style comics ... sorry if the kerplow! made you wince, CR.

As for the games and podcasts, I think they're fun and all that; I appreciate the idea of the different platforms. What bothers me is hearing, on this board 'you should have known that because of the podcast/interview' or 'they didn't drop the numbers, they answered that mystery in the LE.' I think if you create a primetime TV show you'd better make it so it CAN stand alone, and actually I think TBTB have done that (which means they have NOT resolved the numbers, they've abandoned them).

It's more the posters here who sometimes blur the boundaries. I've listened to podcasts but I don't want to feel like it's mandatory, is all. Otherwise the extra stuff feels like assigned homework I have to do before I can participate in discussion, you know?

I personally like the idea of going for new a genre, breaking new ground. But the shipper-catering stuff isn't new ground, ending a season finale with a kiss, so throwing those storylines in it seems trite. Want to be new and different? Go for it!

"Which one will she pick?" -- IMO that's a juvenile storyline. I don't say juvenile as a bad word but to describe the age group that appeals to. Who will Cho pick to go to the big dance? Will it be Harry? I love Harry Potter; in Harry Potter the "who will she pick" plot is right for the characters. It's wrong for these characters who've already been around the block a few times.

Neither do I think they can use "genre-bending" to cover the "selective memory" problem. I liked the way they had Charlie refer to the memory problem when he asked John -- you do recall that I detest you? You do recall punching me ... etc.. At the same time, when characters make a point of telling people to remember and keep it straight how you feel about each other -- that creates a fictional world where regular memory and motivations and character stability are supposed to apply. It's NOT Alice through the Looking Glass where people and reality morph from moment to moment.

TPTB can make the Lost world any kind of reality they want ... but it's been feeling like they keep switching horses and expecting fans not to notice.

Anyhow, thanks for the thoughtful commentary!

Talk about deaths as a convenient plot device...! Departures, too, and amnesia! Boone conveniently died because he heard the radio transmission (it was a way to allow the audience to know a bit more than the characters). Ethan was conveniently killed before he could be tortured and spill the beans. Charlie conveniently suffered amnesia because otherwise he'd have to tell what happened to him and Claire. Michael and Walt were conveniently sent off before Walt could tell anyone what happened to him.

Does anyone else feel manipulated?

Using these things as a plot device is easier than having a more down to earth answer. It leaves ambious reasons to why things have happened albeit allowing them not to resolve or answer things. For once can't some main character just be killed and have it be random. Not built up or obvious? Just randomly kill of Jin. See what kind of crazy stories would spin off of just that one death. Oh well.

But it's a different genre than dramatic fiction with different rules of narration ... so which is Lost?
LOST isn't beholden to any genre, it's post-genre and trying to almost fashion new genre rules for itself. No one know what to expect from LOST. I believe Damon and JJ are trying to create a new pulp rules of fiction for televsion,.
I agree that the writers are trying to incorporate a brand new method of plot development and I suppose when you sit back and think about it, it IS pretty ingenious. It brings a whole other platform into the television serial drama experience.

I'm talking about the gaming culture. Intertwining gaming (which can be played on a television set but doesn't actually interact with broadcast media) with a running television series is practically the concrete depiction of "thinking outside the box." :D

I think when they do things like The Lost Experience, they are telling you to "play the game", same with the bonus disc on season 2. It is trying to get you to "play along". I think these things are the clues, not what they are telling you or showing you. The fact that they are games/experiments are the clues IMO.
Well, there ya have it right there in a neat, concise little sentence: the "answer" to LOST. The viewers themselves are driving the LOST narrative and that's why it seems to veer all over the place because everyone has a different viewpoint. The viewers are "playing along" with the series, just as they are with the LOST Experience game, and all this access to TPTB is merely a conduit for them to discover our playing styles and how WE form our strategy.

This can be viewed as a positive step since it reflects the different styles of play within each viewer - and reveals that we all have a unique creativeness in us that can collectively fabricate a fascinating drama when we work together. How unique that the viewers actually create the LOST experience - online AND within the actual broadcast. We are actively involved, yet do not even realize we are playing, much less how to achieve the end goal.

What would happen if everyone were to suddenly realize that:

LOST is a game and we are the players.

:cool:

I agree that the writers are trying to incorporate a brand new method of plot development and I suppose when you sit back and think about it, it IS pretty ingenious. It brings a whole other platform into the television serial drama experience.

I'm talking about the gaming culture. Intertwining gaming (which can be played on a television set but doesn't actually interact with broadcast media) with a running television series is practically the concrete depiction of "thinking outside the box." :D


Well, there ya have it right there in a neat, concise little sentence: the "answer" to LOST. The viewers themselves are driving the LOST narrative and that's why it seems to veer all over the place because everyone has a different viewpoint. The viewers are "playing along" with the series, just as they are with the LOST Experience game, and all this access to TPTB is merely a conduit for them to discover our playing styles and how WE form our strategy.

This can be viewed as a positive step since it reflects the different styles of play within each viewer - and reveals that we all have a unique creativeness in us that can collectively fabricate a fascinating drama when we work together. How unique that the viewers actually create the LOST experience - online AND within the actual broadcast. We are actively involved, yet do not even realize we are playing, much less how to achieve the end goal.

What would happen if everyone were to suddenly realize that:

LOST is a game and we are the players.

:cool:

Thank you! LOST is not just a TV show, it's an experience! So chill people!

Talk about deaths as a convenient plot device...! Departures, too, and amnesia! Boone conveniently died because he heard the radio transmission (it was a way to allow the audience to know a bit more than the characters). Ethan was conveniently killed before he could be tortured and spill the beans. Charlie conveniently suffered amnesia because otherwise he'd have to tell what happened to him and Claire. Michael and Walt were conveniently sent off before Walt could tell anyone what happened to him.

Does anyone else feel manipulated?

And the yacht has now been conveniently handed back to the Others before any of the Losties could use it in an attempt to sail home. We had a bizarre attempt by Sayid to rescue Jack. What was the point ? We lost the yacht, we had more filler storyline involving Sun and Jin.

Phew, what a thread! I am thrilled with this latest season, and I think the series as a whole has got better and better consistently. I think season 2 was more interesting than series 1, especially the later half of season 2. The first episode of 3 really satisfied me. I love having a glimpse of new things, to be able to imagine things about it, but without the mystery being removed entirely IE having a mystery 'answered' but in such a way that more questions are raised. I think that is good story-telling. Maybe people are disappointed with the way the series is going because they don't like the theme of it anymore. Season 1, nobody really had a clue, and so their own individual ideas and imagination were running completely wild, they had their own idea about what was happening. Now with season 2 and 3, the direction of the show has been funnelled a little, some theories won't work, so some people who were hoping for more spiritual explanations will lose out, while others who like these more scientific / human-based explanations are happy.

And the yacht has now been conveniently handed back to the Others before any of the Losties could use it in an attempt to sail home.
Um--Desmond, who knows a bit about sailing (as he was solo racing around the world when he got washed up on the Island) HAD been trying to sail home--well, to Fiji--from the Island. Two and a half weeks later, he'd gotten nowhere. That whole story line was to establish that none of the lostaways would be getting anywhere, either, even if they still had the boat.

Sure, they could sail around the Island in it, and map the place better. But sooner or later, they'd have landed--and The Others would've been waiting for them. The Others were also likely to have gotten the boat sooner or later, too. (Maybe in exchange for whoever They nabbed onshore?)

So on one hand, yes, it was stupid for Sayid to have lost the boat. On the other hand, it's questionable how useful the boat would've ended up being for them anyway.

Totally irrelevant. Only we, the audience (and Jack who of course didn't tell anyone, and no one asked) know that. The other 40+ survivors don't know that. And even if they were told, would they really just go, 'Oh, okay then, nevermind,' and go back to folding laundry? If I were on that beach you better believe I would be willing to slice whoever tried to take that boat away without me on it, no matter what some drunk guy said about snow-globes.

Realism has gone out the window long ago, is the point. Either the show's an allegorical soap opera, or it's a mystery/survival show. If it's the latter, it sucks. If it's the former, it's not worth watching.

To get to the boat issue, I believe Gregg Nations said the losties were convnced after Michael and Sawyer ended up back on the island that they couldn't get off by sailing -- which is why they never bothered rebuilding the raft.

One of the major points of SOS was that most everyone had finally given up trying to get rescued while Bernard still believed.
100%
Either the show's an allegorical soap opera, or it's a mystery/survival show

It's both (and more)... and that's why I watch it. :biggrin:

Thank you! LOST is not just a TV show, it's an experience! So chill people!

Why? I'm just playing the game ;)

Besides, it's not an "Experience" until Locke hooks me up with some of his funny brown paste.

Personally I just like to watch the show and not over analyze it. The writers always amaze me with what they come up with, even if it isn't always cohesive. And I think that is where most of the viewers are coming from. They can gloss over some things, such as where these people are getting all their tarps from, and not worry about it because most of the viewers don't care. As long as the show makes sense the we can all sit back and enjoy Lost for what it is: a TV show.

My problem is the Writers have told the viewers to analyze Lost. To watch every detail. Things are in the show for a reason. We have it all planned out.

I watched Season 1 on DVDs and believed them. However, after watching Season 2 and now 3 episodes of Season 3 I realize they were just hyping their cool show. Too many things are in Lost because they have a "cool factor" or "wow that would be weird"

I still will watch Lost, but I'm disappointed.

The thing I fear most is that they'll go back to having funny ha-ha comic relief scenes when there just isn't anything funny about the lostaways' current situation.

Seeing a scene where Hurley does something ha-ha so that the audience can cheer up--THAT is a jump-the-shark type moment. Hurley's had far too much happen to him in the last 70 days for him to just retreat into hanging around the beach and enjoying life. The days of building golf courses is over; it's time to get serious. Does that mean Hurley will never cheer people up again? No. Does that mean the funny ironies in life won't happen to Hurley--or any character? No.

But it DOES mean that "comic relief" as a means to ease tension is OUT on this show for the time being. Small wonder TPTB are into making this the "season of romance." Romance will replace funny ha-ha as a realistic way to balance out all the intensity and darkness of what LOST has become and is becoming. . . .

My problem is the Writers have told the viewers to analyze Lost. To watch every detail. Things are in the show for a reason. We have it all planned out.
I watched Season 1 on DVDs and believed them. However, after watching Season 2 and now 3 episodes of Season 3 I realize they were just hyping their cool show. Too many things are in Lost because they have a "cool factor" or "wow that would be weird".
I experienced a real big let-down regarding the props on the show. In the beginning (wow, that sounds so dramatic - say it in a deep baritone voice like you would think God would say it - man it sounds like something really important is about to be said!) sorry, ADD moment, but anyway, In the beginning (now I can't type that without snorting! :D) TPTB said explicitly that all of the background props were very important and that there were NO unintentional props.

Then later in Season 2, when asked about the different stereos in the hatch and the modern washer & dryer they said, "Oh there's so many things to plan and figure out, there is just no way we can control every single prop! Don't look too much into that." :ermm:

That made me sooooo mad! :mad: So many of us had spent SO much time poring over every prop in the background because of that original statement and then they just flippantly say we shouldn't worry that much about background stuff. :disgust:

I've looked back on a lot of TPTB's statements with a more critical eye and came to the same conclusion you have - that they were just excited and hyping their show. And their love of red herrings is probably the reason for a lot of those unexplainable "cool" moments in the show --- it distracts the more committed viewers and sends them off on a wild goose chase while giving the casual viewer a cheap thrill. :cool:

Alright, just finished watching Lost 3.3 and what is stated above is clear here. The writing has gone over the edge. The amount of filler has doubled since last season. We get another flashback to see how sawyer con'd someone but still we yet to wrap up his previous backstories of whose the real sawyer. Honestly, the back story was so min. and pointless they might as well of not of had one.

Now, for the first time this season they cut back and forth between jack and desmonds groups. This not only was pointless but was placed in there for what purpose? Filler. They needed more time to go by. They needed to finally point out the obvious that they took Jack not because he is the leader but because he is a surgeon. They are offering him a way out if he can fix one of them. Something I stated would happen at the beginning of the season. Yet another attempt to try and woo us when they finally revealed another island. Whats ironic is in the first eppy they said it'd take about an hour to reach them from the utopian society. So, either that is on the other island or he lied and it's on this island. Also, alluding to the fact that it is alcatrez and thats where "criminals" or "outkasts" if you will go, then this may be where our second group of others are at.

This eppy wasn't bad but again, we learned 2 minor things that most of us already assumed. All this so-called action adventure must be building up to an remarkable mini-finale. Considering how action packed and adventurous it's been thus far. Lets see if we can't fit in a little more filler.

This show was awesome.
season 1 was great
season 2 kinda lagged but was pretty cool.
season 3 so far, is making me less of a fan of the show. i haven't really been looking forward to the shows, and when i watch them i'd rather be folding laundry or something else, they're not very 'action and adventure' oriented to me. if this is the best they've got, its not good enough.

not that i expect immediate answers but, so far i don't like the others still, i have no idea what exactly happend in the hatch, i don't really like the flashback system of story telling anymore since we haven't learned anything new, esp with jack, sun&jin etc. waaaaah my dads a drunk jerk, my wife left me...

waaaaaaaaaah my husbands a thug who works for my dad...okay, we knew this stuff back in season 1...lets learn new things...this show just drags tired story lines out...its like watching someone beat a dead horse out in the street. we get it, unless there is something new to tell us about these characters, start doing flashbacks for other characters...or just do something interesting damn it. i'm getting very sick of this show very quick

It also seems contradictory to say that you "love the slow reveal" and are not "hurting for answers," but then claim to be tired of the writers always "answering questions with more questions." .


True...but there is a difference between "slow reveal" and "no reveal." We aren't getting any answers.
100%
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The show is starting to get into trouble because they've lost sight of what made it popular to begin with.

But honestly...you're a writer? You spelled "legitimately," "definitely," "seem," and "weak" incorrectly, used "to" instead of "too," forgot apostrophes in a couple of places they were needed, and used several run-on sentences ("I love the slow reveal i'm not hurting for answers"). I guess you mean Scriptwriter.


real mature

I'm giving them one more episode and then I'm out of here for good. The Glass Ballerina was the nail in the coffin for me.

Seriously man. As a matter of fact, I think you should hold your breath waiting for the next episode to answer all of your questions! Let me know how it works out for you.

I have to admit, as much as I love the show, I'm getting really annoyed. It's been 4 epis into this season and we have absolutely no answers. Not even tiny ones. It's been mostly the same stuff we've known: Jack has control issues and hates his daddy, Sun slept with another guy and hates her daddy, Locke has a prob with getting duped and hates his daddy, and finally Sawyer has a tendancy to be kinda selfish (BIG surprise there) and IS a daddy. Things things are nice and all but hardly address anything I'm curious and excited about. I wanna know at least a tad about why the Others have taken the 3 losties hostage. And please, can we get back to the mysteries of the island?! It's being dragged out a little too far for me. But I will still give it some time.... I love the awesome premise of the show and some of the characters too much to quit so readily. I just really hope that the next episode actually goes somewhere!

And please, can we get back to the mysteries of the island?!
You know what I'm hoping for??? That the "monster" gets the munchies and decides to snack on one of those "civilized" persons in Otherville! Hey, we already saw that the polar bear ate the guys who were manning The Pearl station - why not have the monster terrorize the Others too? ;)


Yes I know, the Others may actually be controlling it. That's a theory anyway. But I still want to see it chow down on one of them!!! :tongue1:

Yet another attempt to try and woo us when they finally revealed another island. Whats ironic is in the first eppy they said it'd take about an hour to reach them from the utopian society. So, either that is on the other island or he lied and it's on this island.
Wastedmind, I feel for your confusion. It's easier to keep track of daytime soap opera details--and I don't even watch those! :D

So, here's the thing:

Otherville (the suburban housing community) IS on the main Island. If The Others are enhanced physically--a fave theory of mine--Goodwin running to the Tailies' crash point in an hour may not be all that far-fetched. But anyway, Otherville's on THE Island.

The Hydra Station is on a small island of its own--about a mile or so off the coast of the main Island, as Ben showed James last eppy. They seem to "process" captives and do experiments there.

That's it. Until they reveal more. Which I have no doubt they will. They really ARE determined to jump that shark! :10:

They really ARE determined to jump that shark! :10:
I have a fun question for you and everyone who has contributed to this thread:

WHAT exactly would be your "jump-the-shark" moment???

I can think of some truly hideous scenarios but one stands out as particularly cringe-inducing: The Losties throw a beach wedding for Charlie and Claire which is presided over by a pious, smiling Eko. Charlie gives Claire his "2nd tour of Finland" ring and then serenades Claire and Aaron with a specially written song professing his deep and abiding love for both of them.

But wait, there's more! When Claire throws her bouquet of weeds Nikki catches it and then looks slyly yet dreamily at Desmond, while Paulo watches and fumes. Oooh, another LOST romance triangle is brewing!

:biglaugh:

Oh! It's funny and painful at the same time!!! :biggrin:


:jump:

I have a fun question for you and everyone who has contributed to this thread:

WHAT exactly would be your "jump-the-shark" moment???

I can think of some truly hideous scenarios but one stands out as particularly cringe-inducing: The Losties throw a beach wedding for Charlie and Claire which is presided over by a pious, smiling Eko. Charlie gives Claire his "2nd tour of Finland" ring and then serenades Claire and Aaron with a specially written song professing his deep and abiding love for both of them.

But wait, there's more! When Claire throws her bouquet of weeds Nikki catches it and then looks slyly yet dreamily at Desmond, while Paulo watches and fumes. Oooh, another LOST romance triangle is brewing!

lol nice.

Um... yeah, that would be about the point when my head would explode. To me, that is typically when I lose all faith in just about any TV show I have ever seen, the wedding episode. I've been holding out for something good for a while now but if anybody gets married it's time for all of us to pack our bags.

Yes I know, the Others may actually be controlling it. That's a theory anyway. But I still want to see it chow down on one of them!!! :tongue1:
I would absolutely hate it if the Others "controlled" the monster. They already have way too much power. I hope Ben will eventually have to come face to face with Smokey and be scared out his frickin mind.

My problem is the Writers have told the viewers to analyze Lost. To watch every detail. Things are in the show for a reason. We have it all planned out.

I watched Season 1 on DVDs and believed them. However, after watching Season 2 and now 3 episodes of Season 3 I realize they were just hyping their cool show. Too many things are in Lost because they have a "cool factor" or "wow that would be weird"

I still will watch Lost, but I'm disappointed.

See the second quote in my sig file. That's from Gregg Nations. They do not plan out every single detail....I figured that out pretty much early on and stopped with the overly nitpicky approach. Life has been better since I made that decision.

I'm not talking about props. For example, I don't think the writers were consistant with Desmond and his reasons for pushing the button and his belief that outside the hatch is contaminated. These two plot points completely changed during Season 2. I'm not watching for problems with copywrite dates on books. I'm talking about major plot points that contradict earlier plot points. How can the viewer have faith that they can "figure out the riddle" if the riddle can change at any point?

First we are lead to belive that Desmond is scared to go outside and must take vaccine to protect himself from the contaimination outside when the Losties breakin to the hatch. Later, we find out that Desmond has already been outside and even killed somebody and knows there is no contamination outside.

Can the viewers rely on what they see or will things change from week to week?

I'm talking about major plot points that contradict earlier plot points. How can the viewer have faith that they can "figure out the riddle" if the riddle can change at any point?


True. WE see that but how many of the 'casual' viewers notice things like that? I watch LOST ever Wednesday night with some viewers who like the show but who are NOT rabid fans. So far they have not noticed any of the glaring points that seem to stick out to me like red flags. They don't nitpick...they just watch. They are curious about all the mysteries but not enough to keep track of them as closely as I do. I wonder how many times that scene is repeated in the LOST viewing audience?

Are TPTB assuming that we are just a 'fringe' element? :D

i know multiple people in HIGH END graduate schools who can't spell, so whats your point? "oh no, the mighty English language is being butchered on the internet." :frown:

im not sure if him spelling incorrectly is any better than perpetuating cliche internet quarrels about spelling.






I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The show is starting to get into trouble because they've lost sight of what made it popular to begin with.

But honestly...you're a writer? You spelled "legitimately," "definitely," "seem," and "weak" incorrectly, used "to" instead of "too," forgot apostrophes in a couple of places they were needed, and used several run-on sentences ("I love the slow reveal i'm not hurting for answers"). I guess you mean Scriptwriter.

First we are lead to belive that Desmond is scared to go outside and must take vaccine to protect himself from the contaimination outside when the Losties breakin to the hatch. Later, we find out that Desmond has already been outside and even killed somebody and knows there is no contamination outside.

Can the viewers rely on what they see or will things change from week to week?

Word.

Excellent point.

What happens when you have too much story for a miniseries, but not enough for a TV series? LOST.

To all those who miss the "randomness": this is why shows like CSI are so popular (but that I don't watch), there are different storylines every week. LOST is not a TV show in the traditional sense, but a serialized epic. For LOST to have truly surprising twists every week, it would lose a great deal of it's sense of continuity. That's how most stories work. Structure is integral to maintaining a sense of continuity. I have to smile at TPTB for making us a viewership of analysts, so as to distract us from the big picture. I'm sure that if you sat down and thought about you'd come up with where this story is heading. This show's basics were planned, and TPTB know where to end it. For them, it's not where you're going, but how you get there.

I just like how the hatch blew up and their is no way unless everyone of them were disconnected and not in use at the time that any electronic on said island would work. I love how that is not addressed. I also enjoyed how they knew sawyer was going to try and shock them so they turned it off but only moments before all the "others" walked by with jack, including benry. How the hell is this going on? Watching closely as sawyer makes his plans and getting jack? They are magic!

But in all seriousness the others having electricity is lame now. It's impossible. Unless that is just one of those things that at the finale last year won't be touched upon nor answered directly. We just have to assume it didnt happen how we think it did and that it was meant to not blow electronics up.

Maybe it'll be fixed with the new character, Jesus Christ Superstar... i mean desmond. How lame. Why not just make new characters if your going to just change him every other few times we see him. One time he is scared and intense and other times he knew exactly what was happening and was calm. Now he is jesus and sees the future. Lame way to get faith back in the show.

I'm cool with Des having this psychic thing, but why are the writers acting like it's OK that Des seems perfectly fine with seeing the future??!! He should be freakin out. Unless he has had it all his life, but then why would he have allowed himself to go sailing out and get stuck on the island in the first place? That is what's silly about the whole thing. It feels like, so far this season, that people aren't having good reasons for what they're doing and they are doing and saying things for no good purpose. (Why is Pickett taking out his revenge on Sawyer? Sun shot his wife so it makes no sense to me.) I'm getting annoyed at that aspect of the writing this season and I hope it gets better, and soon!

its not a show for everybody. i am amazed that the show is actually a hit. it seems more like the sort of thing that would establish a cult audience and last only a few seasons. its too good for middle america.

so if people are jumping ship because the show is no longer about a mysterious island where anything can happen and is now about a mysterious island where we sort of understand what is and isnt within the realm of possibility... i hate to say it... but good riddance to anybody who doesnt want to watch.

if the show finds itself on the bubble of cancellation, they'll wrap it up and i'll be glad i got 3 years of excellent tv.

I strongly want to believe that the last season will be the most exciting. That in the last season the climax will occur and the show will explode and either become the greatest or worst show ever created. That every episode we have seen, including "Fire + Water" will be important in the end (perhaps that's a stretch but this is Lost).

As most posters perviously stated and we're all aware of that is that this show like any other will not please everyone. That would be highly unlikely.

I listen to Damon and Carlton every week on the podcast and even though they are always joking around, when they talk about the show they seem very confident with where its going. So, I have hope. I'll continue watching until the show gets to the "zombie" season

its not a show for everybody. i am amazed that the show is actually a hit. it seems more like the sort of thing that would establish a cult audience and last only a few seasons. its too good for middle america.

so if people are jumping ship because the show is no longer about a mysterious island where anything can happen and is now about a mysterious island where we sort of understand what is and isnt within the realm of possibility... i hate to say it... but good riddance to anybody who doesnt want to watch.

if the show finds itself on the bubble of cancellation, they'll wrap it up and i'll be glad i got 3 years of excellent tv.
3 years of excellent TV? Maybe you feel that way, but I don't. Season 1 was pretty good, but Season 2 in my opinion warrants a do over. Season 3 started out with promise, but it's gotten to the point that I have to remove my thinking cap to watch this show. I find that offensive considering how much TPTB seem to value their product.

Good writing? Maybe. I think the individual writers are talented, but a lot of the larger creative choices were bad ones. When I think of good writing, I think of Battlestar Galactica or Heroes or (wait for it) Gilmore Girls.

What it boils down to is Lost is a mediocre show with an intriguing premise and high hopes for an eventual payoff that almost certainly will let viewers down in the end.

^Well, that's nice and optimistic. :cool:

AZ, couldn't agree more with every statement, Heroes, 24, Battlestar, Veronica Mars, all these shows IMO deliever what i want and more every week. Not a bad episode. Not filler. And these are serialized dramas which build things that pay off in future episodes.

And honestly, i know they've joked about doing a Zombie eppy but honestly I feel that an episode like that would actually serve this show well at this point. The action-adventure isn't there. The feeling of being lost isn't there. It is a show that is becoming less enjoyable. And AZ you were right, I don't think that much when i watch the show. If anything, I actually notice more inconsistencies with the writing.

I also think that its time to bust that emergency script out from the glass and have joop show up on the show and talk to us a bit. haha. But seriously the bad choice IMO this season, or first 6 eps was to full feature the others and the capturees. It'd of been more like Lost to start on the beach and have us in suspense about whats going on. It'd of been so cool if they'd of put a search and rescue mission together to actually rescue them. And have someone do intel/recon and see that it looks like they are being tortured and what not. It'd make us think that the others are actually more menacing than we think. It'd be intense and have a really hardcore build up to what could be a massive cliff hanger on eppy 6 when the losties attack the "good guys".

I was just reading that this week's episode will focus on Mr Eko and I could not help but think that what is wrong with Lost is even though they are all on a Island the characters are never really connected to each other. They never tell each other what they have found out. They never tell each other what they are thinking, planning, worried about, etc. Everybody is in their own little world.

I don't think the writers have figured out that this is a problem with Lost. Each episode this season has focus on a small group or individual Lostie. One week its Mr Eko, one week its John, one week its Kate & Sawyer.

Its no wonder that Lost is bogging down. If we have to spend an entire episode for each Lostie, we will have only gotten through 2 or 3 days on the Island by the end of season 3.

Just last night my daughter was telling me about a movie she had watch the night before. She went into such detail I gave up after only a few minutes of listening. I never did figure out what the movie was about.

I don't what to watch a documentary on how Kate and Sawyer spent their day in the Lost Zoo. I want to unravel the "Mystery of Lost"

3 years of excellent TV? Maybe you feel that way, but I don't. Season 1 was pretty good, but Season 2 in my opinion warrants a do over. Season 3 started out with promise, but it's gotten to the point that I have to remove my thinking cap to watch this show. I find that offensive considering how much TPTB seem to value their product.

Good writing? Maybe. I think the individual writers are talented, but a lot of the larger creative choices were bad ones. When I think of good writing, I think of Battlestar Galactica or Heroes or (wait for it) Gilmore Girls.

What it boils down to is Lost is a mediocre show with an intriguing premise and high hopes for an eventual payoff that almost certainly will let viewers down in the end.

I LOVED Heroes until tonights episode...
When my favorite character, Hiro, didn't freeze time to go out to the Poker table and save himself and his friend from the gun pointing at them, (even though in the end the whole table of players gets slaughtered anyways...). That particular point I was thinking to myself, JUST 'EFFING' FREEZE TIME AND LISTEN TO YOUR FRIEND! HE SAID THE GUY HAS A GUN!! Jesus CHRIST. Frustration.

Yeah... so... Heroes is definitely flawed in the "Uhh.. DUH!" department. I'm new to Lost, having watched seasons 1 & 2 recently all in a couple of sittings. All caught up with S3, and I definitely feel that as a WHOLE, this is one of the better shows I've seen. I'm addicted, and obsessed. I do agree with all though, S1 blew me away.
100%


I don't think the writers have figured out that this is a problem with Lost. Each episode this season has focus on a small group or individual Lostie. One week its Mr Eko, one week its John, one week its Kate & Sawyer.

Its no wonder that Lost is bogging down. If we have to spend an entire episode for each Lostie, we will have only gotten through 2 or 3 days on the Island by the end of season 3.

But that's why the next 2 episodes will be so refreshing, supposedly the Losties are getting back together and going searching for the Pearl. More Sayid/Hurley/Locke/Desmond please.

But a show like heroes is a show that isn't supposed to always or really be mysterious. It's supposed to be a continuing saga. Think any Marvel Comic book. You establish the characters, build upon them and then follow along with them. Just like X-MEN did in the comics. It's a fascinating show about superheroes.

As long as the show makes sense the we can all sit back and enjoy Lost for what it is: a TV show.

But I don't think the show is making much sense as of late. Can you give me a few examples of where you think there has been continuity this season?

But I don't think the show is making much sense as of late. Can you give me a few examples of where you think there has been continuity this season?
Well, the characters are all still played by the same actors. :roflmao:

Well, the characters are all still played by the same actors. :roflmao:

:lol1: Yep.......and........well that's about all that seems familiar. :harhar1:

Well, it's still set on an Island. Well, TWO islands, now, but. . . .

I have a thought, what is it most tv series want to achieve?

drumrollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

SYDNICATION!

why you ask?

ask the the people involved in the creation dukes of hazzard, they lived full lives off of the royalties of a sydnicated show and from what I have read the magic number for sydnication is 100 episodes so how many seasons of lost is that, 4 plus a few hours so mebe the 4 seasons and the movie equal sydnication and free money forever llike i love lucy.....anyhow, IF that is their time frame they better pick up the pace or rather, they might pick up the pace sooner than we might like. dont get me wrong i hate how slow the story goes and would like to see more bat cave type cool gadgetry and solve the mysteries we have yet to get answers from but I must say, it sure is a cool watch when you have a weekend and a new dvd box set and watch the whole thing and all the extras by bedtime sunday. hehehe never thought id say my glass was half full but thare tis!

iamthesecuritysystem:hypocrit:

The show lost credibility for me when Michael shot Ana Lucia and Libby. Not because it was wildly out of character, but because the girls had been set up to do something great. Ana Lucia was leading the resistance against the Others; without her, everyone except Sayid seems to have abandoned the plan to fight back. What a loss. What an absolute waste.

I just don’t see how the writers can condone cutting a character who was so essential to the plot. And now that Eko’s gone, the only surviving Tailender that we’re left with is Bernard. Does anyone remember the last time he offered anything to the show?

Why did they spend so much time developing cannon fodder? That’s not storytelling; that’s filler. A diversionary tactic. Do they really think the audience won't notice?

For every character killed off, another two or three are introduced. Whatever happened to quality over quantity?

What happens when you have too much story for a miniseries, but not enough for a TV series? LOST. I'm sure that if you sat down and thought about you'd come up with where this story is heading.
I've often thought and discussed with people that LOST should have been a mini-series. It could have run about 4 hours a night for 4 nights and I think we would have ended up with an amazing piece of cinematic history! :)
Oh, and please share if you have discovered where this story is heading .... :kiss:

But in all seriousness the others having electricity is lame now. It's impossible.
It wouldn't be impossible with a geothermal generator. Sayid discussed this early in Season 2 when they were exploring the hatch.

Why is Pickett taking out his revenge on Sawyer? Sun shot his wife so it makes no sense to me.)
Probably for the same reason the Losties took out their frustrations on Henry/Ben. Sayid blamed the Others for Shannon's death because it was their constant attacks that contributed to Ana-Lucia's paranoia and subsequent trigger finger. People just like having SOMEONE to blame, and a representative of the group you distrust works just as well as the actual person who committed the act. :rolleyes:

I strongly want to believe that every episode we have seen, including "Fire + Water" will be important in the end (perhaps that's a stretch but this is Lost).
:biglaugh: Yes, that may be a really really big stretch but I hope you're right! :biggrin:

I also think that its time to bust that emergency script out from the glass and have joop show up on the show and talk to us a bit. haha.
Yes! Break the glass! BREAK IT!!!! :fear3:
;) :tongue1:

If you're going to go on a forum and try to bolster your own credibility by proclaiming "I'm A Writer," and then demonstrate such a lack of command of the language, you deserve to be called on it.
I agree completely. It's called "basis for strength of argument" and if you drag out some pompous proclamation, you better be prepared to defend it.

I have a thought, what is it most tv series want to achieve? SYDNICATION! the magic number for sydnication is 100 episodes so how many seasons of lost is that
The LOST writers have said several times that they only want LOST to continue for 5 Seasons --- mysteriously that is just over the threshold for syndication. :rolleyes:

the only surviving Tailender that we’re left with is Bernard.
Why did they spend so much time developing cannon fodder? That’s not storytelling; that’s filler. A diversionary tactic. Do they really think the audience won't notice?
I agree and I don't think we are being harsh by calling them on it. :cool:

I miss Javier Grillo. Nothing agaisnt the other writers. But people leaving, episodes that are all over the place...not good. Last night's episode should have been named 'DejaVu', or 'previously on lost'.

I agree Freckles. I think the reason last nights eppy on the surface was easier to swallow than any other this season is because it was an copy of a previous eppy. Eckos first back story was used here alot, only with the twist that now he is a bad person. We are going to completely do a 360 randomly and show you that this character is a HORRIBLE person. But again have no conclusion to his actual back story. He left Africa for London and apparently thats all this character ever did. And the monster feels like this would be the perfect time to kill this character even though he could've in his first eppy and numerous times before this. Because it was obvious to it that he was a bad person.

Also, the dialog is where the problems for me are starting to show like splinters. When we first cut to Locke the first thing he is says is something along the lines of "Alright gang I know how we can find Jack and them". What? No build up. Not discussion. And then when it cut to Sayid talking to Charlie/Hurley I laughed in confusion. Okay, I'll but that things happen off screen. But apparently after their boat got stolen a day ago, they decided to walk feverishly through the jungle, never having any problems with anything, and make it here by the next morning without any major references. And did Jin/Sun even come along with him? Because if they did why not show them at least in the background a bit.

Then we have these new character whom every time they are given screen time makes me want to vomit in being force-fed these BS character that are just in for filler. I lost faith in the writers introducing actual new characters. I'm sure these will just be part of some new love triangle or something that is just another rehash from previous storylines. And their dialog is just retarded. "What are these other monitors for?" And then Locke, the intelligent beast that he is "oh how could i forget about those. The things that I saw Jack on. Duh!". And the new d00d trying to have comic relief for no real reason. I just hope they don't try and give us back story for these characters. It's bad enough when Locke says "anyone who wants to come can come" and then they walk away and pan over to these characters that chit-chat and complain about never being included. Remember when Charlie did this? Lame.

Now... the killing of one of the most interesting character in the lamest way possible. Okay. A rule in directing has been if you can't show it effectively try not to show it at all. Not everyone follows these rules but when you show a very cartoon-y smoke-hand thing banging the loose change out of Ecko I can't help but laugh. Having it stalk him was enough for us to buy that it was going to do something. All we needed was to see it appear in front of him and then alot of noises and such. It was very very lame. But I guess it's okay because we just found out that Mr. Faith doesn't want to repent and really doesn't seem or feel all to religious now that he is dying. An event that usually makes people become more religious.

The only thing that was slightly interesting was the bits with Jack and watching him be tested more and more. It was interesting whilst still having a small effect. I get it, they are testing him to see if he will kill Ben given the chance. Great. The set up is easy to see. Next eppy they will finally present Jack with his choices and he'll say yes. But he wants something in return. Then with Desmonds superpowers they will locate where Kate and Sawyer are and go to save them.

LOST_IN - Also, in regards to my spelling and being "called on it" as i mentioned before and will again say, I never re-read my own writing especially when it's on a forum. I'm writing 100+ wpm trying to get everything out of my head at the time. I don't go back and spend hours on these boards and spell check all my arguments because honestly I have a life. I get on here to ask questions and rant occasionally. And many other writer friends of mine have similar problems. It's called an editor and one of their main jobs is catching spelling and grammar mistakes. Even your famed Lost Writers all come attached with unseen writers assistants and editors. So next time you want to cry fowl on spelling errors instead of attacking what I am saying, remember even the best writers are bad spellers.

And in regards to the generator, if any electricity were running at the time which presumably there had to of been these people have houses and such those things, including the running boat that Michael drove off into the sun on. All these things would stop running. Unless there is magic on this island and seeing that Desmond is a superhero/jesus-like character now I'm sure this is very plausible now. But there would be no actual way for most of these things to continue functioning. This includes other hatches, especially the pearl which apparently still has working everything and we see that they were on and powered up. No generator has the power to magically fix broken things.

This is just like how did Sayid and no one else see this second island? He walked around half of it. And how did the tailies just happen to not walk on that side of the island? Or how come sawyer didn't see it when they went on the boat. Or Desmond. Or why didn't Rousseau's detailed map have this island at least represented on the map? These are just a few holes that are found just on the surface.

I have to agree--season three is turning out to be rather different than the last two. I two am afraid this is it for LOST--no matter what the producers say...when the suits at ABC start to see a huge slip in ratings, it will be gone.

Sad really...maybe the writers need to tie up a few more loose ends instead of always teasing

I just dislike that all of the main characters have been kept seperate from each other like this. I understand it from a story point of view, but I don't think it makes for interesting television and I'm not certain if the payoff will be worth it. I mean, in the end, what was the payoff of sepearting Sawyer/Michael/Jin for six episodes in season two? The characters introduced that storyline are all dead (save for Bernard) and all ramifications (the child kidnappings, etc) from it have been ignored thus far. If viewers reject these new characters or the writers tire of them, are they gone by season's end as well?

I see these episodes as being forced to eat my vegetables and I've been willing to do it patiently, but not to have any interaction between Jack and Sawyer/Kate and then no interaction with the rest of the castaways in more than one fourth of the season just seems boring to me. I feel like we the viewer have also been kidnapped by The Others and I commend the producers for translating that feeling of helplessness to us, but it doesn't necessarily make me want to watch the show anymore.

I am not bolting and I am not saying Lost isn't very good, but I don't enjoy it nearly as much as I used to. And I don't feel like I am stupid or impatient or horny for action and revelations. I watch "The Wire" and that show tests the patience of its viewers to an even more ridiculous degree, but the payoffs are worth it and I never once feel bored by it.

After five episodes, where are we really since we last left our heroes in season two? Five episodes and we've really learned nothing and most of the character movement could have occured in the span of one episode. Not every episode has to be a season finale, but episodes like "Do No Harm" and "Homecoming" were heart pounding and the flashbacks weren't even that noteworthy.

All the writers talked about in the lead up to these six episodes is the emphasis on romance and action and how they would move quickly because we just had these six episodes. Were they really talking about the six episodes I am seeing?

This show has definitely been dragggggging. Geez. They seem to be just making stuff up now for certain things to make sense. It's stupid. Like for example...Locke's backstory. What was the point? And as far as Eko's goes...If he was such a known bad guy, wouldn't those drug guys and the church folk have known who he was? C'mon. Make the show worth watching again. And the fact that they're only playing 6 new episodes and then it's not coming back again til next year....geez...at least make these 6 episodes interesting. All I have to say is that this Fall Season Finale had better be the best show ever or a lot of people are gonna lose interest.:undecide:

I miss Javier Grillo. Nothing agaisnt the other writers. But people leaving, episodes that are all over the place...not good. Last night's episode should have been named 'DejaVu', or 'previously on lost'.
Oh how I feel your pain. And I feel exactly the same way! It's just not the same without Javi. :frown:

And the new d00d trying to have comic relief for no real reason. I just hope they don't try and give us back story for these characters.
That might be the jump-the-shark moment for me too - Paulo's backstory, complete with pained expressions, a powerful man-cry, and a look of wistful longing coupled with intense regret. :sick:

I never re-read my own writing especially when it's on a forum. I'm writing 100+ wpm trying to get everything out of my head at the time. I don't go back and spend hours on these boards and spell check all my arguments because honestly I have a life. So next time you want to cry fowl on spelling errors instead of attacking what I am saying, remember even the best writers are bad spellers.
Okay, I'll call the "fowl" .... HERE, TURKEY!!! :1turkey:
:rotflmao2: :biglaugh:

Seriously though, when you are accused of being a pompous jerk, it doesn't help your defense to imply that you are above correcting your own work or that other people on this board are idiots and have no life for preparing coherent thoughts (not just writing stream-of-consciousness style) and correcting their own errors. :undecide:

And in regards to the generator, if any electricity were running at the time which presumably there had to of been these people have houses and such those things, including the running boat that Michael drove off into the sun on. All these things would stop running. There would be no actual way for most of these things to continue functioning.
:bored: Errmmm.... and why wouldn't these things be able to run on geothermal energy? In the very beginning of Season 2 when Sayid and Jack were exploring the hatch, Sayid made reference to a geothermal generator powering the hatch, so this possibility is not without precedent.

It's not an outrageous assumption that this generator could supply all the energy needed on the island. A geothermal power plant provides about 25% of the electricity used on the Big Island of Hawaii (population ~165,000). Geothermal power theoretically could serve 100% of the electrical needs of 39 countries (over 620,000,000 people) in Africa, Central/ South America and the Pacific.

Geothermal generators are expensive to construct but considering that the projects on the island were sponsored by Alvar Hanso, a very wealthy individual, it's not out of the question. So, making broad statements about the impossibility of generating power on the island is rather uninformed. (Notice I'm attacking your "argument" not your grammar! :biggrin:)

And as far as Eko's goes...If he was such a known bad guy, wouldn't those drug guys and the church folk have known who he was?
Well, actually I thought that was why the guy wanted to chop off Eko's hands - because he knew Eko was trying to sell the vaccine himself and cut the other guy out of the deal. :undecide:


I'm waiting with baited breath for Episode 6, hoping against hope that no sharks will appear out of nowhere for Arthur Fonzarelli to jump over. :thumbup: "Aaaaayyyyyy"

A geothermal power plant provides about 25% of the electricity used on the Big Island of Hawaii (population ~165,000).boy, you sure wouldn't know it by our $300 a month electric bill, lol. I've never studied it, but it has to convert that energy before it sends it out. It's a big plant, and it stinks up the air all around it, as in people don't like to live near it. It would need to be somewhere removed from the scene to be undetected.

As someone spoke up about it, I too would like to defend people who can spell. The earlier post made me feel like if you can spell you have no shot at becoming a writer.

We all make funny typos and slips, and I'm LMAO at cry fowl. One that makes me laugh at the image it evokes is "baited breath." Baited with what, fishbisuits? :p
"bated breath" derived from "abated." All in good fun ...

I'm less concerned with the scientific holes in the plot than the lack of inquiry.
I haven't heard anyone wondering how DHARMA rations drop from the sky. I find that incomprehensible. Can you imagine Tom Hanks in Castaway getting regular drops of food on his deserted island and not trying to figure out who, what, why, when, and whether he can use the info to get rescued?

They give us an episode to address why Hurley hasn't lost weight, and in the process give us a giant problem with this regular food delivery. No one questions. Now back when we saw the drop, I for one assumed the Others still supplied the Hatch in some way ... but now we've seen more of these Others they show no signs that they've tended to the Hatch in recent memory.

It's cool to throw in a weird event like the food drop for a bit, but not for this long.
Unless we can now assume that Smokie plays Santa when he/it's in a giving mood.

boy, you sure wouldn't know it by our $300 a month electric bill, lol. I've never studied it, but it has to convert that energy before it sends it out. It's a big plant, and it stinks up the air all around it, as in people don't like to live near it. It would need to be somewhere removed from the scene to be undetected.


Here in Houston we were HAPPY when our bill dropped to $300!!! Ours has been up to $500 over the summer... :p

haha, how can I not smile with the fowl remark you made.

But my problem isn't with the generator it's the fact that the EMP sent out would've been massive. So massive apparently it created a bright light and noise that spread across the island. But unless they have magic, would've destroyed the boats engine, the other hatches and any other electronics running at the time. The boat drove away fine, no problem. And if the Swan station was the station where this generator was working, since these things use electromagnetism to run, if it blew energy levels on the island would deplete quickly.

I don't believe I was ever accused of being pompous, I said I was a writer/director and that I understand writing. if thats pompous, then i guess we all should stop enjoying movies and tv. I also never said i was ABOVE correcting, i just find it silly. We are all just spewing out the thoughts as they come. I just think rather than attacking someone who doesn't go back edit, spellcheck and re-read his posts, they should look at the content. But because the content is about their favorite show being attacked they attack me personally rather than the content. And I also never accused anyone of not having a life just alluding to the fact that i do. ;)

We all make funny typos and slips, and I'm LMAO at cry fowl. One that makes me laugh at the image it evokes is "baited breath." Baited with what, fishbisuits? :p "bated breath" derived from "abated." All in good fun ...
:jump1: :lol:

Wait, but you see I was attempting to catch a response with my baited breath ....

Don't buy that? How about a more intellectual response:

It could be argued that: "bate" is an obsolete lexical item, whose participle is a relic in one frozen idiom: "with bated breath."

No?

Okay. {sheepish} How about, "I'm an idiot" ???? Does that work?

:rotflmao2: :wink1:

haha, how can I not smile with the fowl remark you made.
Awwww, you totally missed your shot at slamming me with the 'baited breath' comment! Oh well, OFG took care of it .... :winkiss:

I don't believe I was ever accused of being pompous, I said I was a writer/director and that I understand writing.
Oh, uh, sorry, I think that was me actually:

Look, I've been the subject of AnalogKid's nitpicking myself, but I gotta stand up for him on this one. If you're going to go on a forum and try to bolster your own credibility by proclaiming "I'm A Writer," and then demonstrate such a lack of command of the language, you deserve to be called on it.
I agree completely. It's called "basis for strength of argument" and if you drag out some pompous proclamation, you better be prepared to defend it.

:w00t: :biglaugh:


Okay now back to your regularly scheduled whining, b*tching, moaning & complaining. ;) (That's not an insult, by the way! The piss & moan postings are the best threads on The Fuselage!) :smile1:




{I promise I'll be serious next time. Well, um, I promise to TRY to be serious next time.}

We need to change the title of this discussion..

"What this thread has become and what it is becoming...."

:D

We need to change the title of this discussion..
"What this thread has become and what it is becoming...."
:D
True :redface:
Sorry y'all, I got off track a bit ...... :lipsseal:

I agree Freckles. I think the reason last nights eppy on the surface was easier to swallow than any other this season is because it was an copy of a previous eppy. Eckos first back story was used here alot, only with the twist that now he is a bad person. We are going to completely do a 360 randomly and show you that this character is a HORRIBLE person. But again have no conclusion to his actual back story. He left Africa for London and apparently thats all this character ever did. And the monster feels like this would be the perfect time to kill this character even though he could've in his first eppy and numerous times before this. Because it was obvious to it that he was a bad person.

"Cost of Living" displayed an Eko that was neither good nor bad, but human and flawed.

And that's where Mr. Eko's fateful decision last Wednesday really hit home for me. As he so eloquently put it:

I did not ask for the life I was given but it was given to me nonetheless - and with it I did my best.

Confronting the Monster, he was asked to repent. And he refused. And he paid with his life.

Was this a character who turned to the dark side? Or did he instead accept his limitations, that he could never be as good as his brother Yemi -- that he would always be, as he was on the steps of the church, a priest with blood on his hands? It was this contradiction that wracked Eko with guilt all his life that he thought he could somehow resolve it and find peace. But he sought forgiveness for something that could never be forgiven, not as long as he was trying to be his brother, one who believed in absolute morality. Instead he could only be himself -- not a contradiction, but something else... a happy medium where he could accept murdering a man to spare his brother from doing so himself.

It's a shades of grey morality, yes, but one that brought peace. But that's what Eko's death was about in my mind: acceptance of who you were, the smoke and the light.

And that's excellent writng in my opinion.

"Cost of Living" displayed an Eko that was neither good nor bad, but human and flawed.

It's a shades of grey morality, yes, but one that brought peace. But that's what Eko's death was about in my mind: acceptance of who you were, the smoke and the light.

And that's excellent writng in my opinion.

:41: Bravo - very well said.

I've gotta agree with Wastedmind. This show is started a nose dive right down the crapper. The writing is what I would have to blame it on. It's as if they fired the old writers and hired all new one's that don't even know what's going on. They keep contridicting themselves in a lot of different areas and screwing up character's profiles. My biggest point to this is Desmond, at first he was very interesting and mysterious but then he freaks out when the computer breaks. He keeps saying he doesn't know what the button does and that he's saving the world. And when he comes back we find out he had a fail safe and basically knew what the button was for. Hopefully somebody will wake up and save the show before they completely ruin it. I just thank god Battlestar Galactica is still so much of a better show and keeps getting better by the week.

It's really kind of amusing the way Lost is turning out.

Season One "The Questions" - Come with us on a journey of the unexplained. - No one knows what is going on but we all like speculating about it.

Season Two "Evasive Answers" - Let us tease you with answers that ask more questions, you won't realize until it's too late. - People are starting to get miffed about all the questions still unanswered from Season One.

Season Three "We'll Throw You a Bone" - You want answers? Okay we'll start giving them to you. - Hey these answers suck! Most of them screw up the Lost Theory I came up with in Season One! I know they are trying to trick us, none of these answers are real.

I anticipate Season Four will be "Look for the last time people, the plane crash was an accident, and 99% of the time we aren't trying to fool you. Get over it already"

Why should Lost always be about providing Answers - it doesn’t attempt to explain consciousness or whether there is life after death? How about we simply accept that there may be no known answers to some of the stuff that happens in Lost - as in life? Many people take a whole lifetime to find answers, and even then remain mystified at the meaning of things! If folk expect answers to every question than they will be sorely disappointed. Maybe that’s a learning for the main characters and also the audience

But isn't that the point of all great television shows or movies? They provide an escape from real life. Real life where, yes, questions and problems do remain--sometimes forever--unresolved.
Viewers have, I believe, become frustrated because they expect more from these fantasy worlds--"unreal" life. Answers. Solutions. Perhaps even a happy ending?
And it's unfair to expect that people should become so very invested in a group of characters--to care about them--but not care about their ultimate fate.
100%

They keep contridicting themselves in a lot of different areas and screwing up character's profiles. My biggest point to this is Desmond, at first he was very interesting and mysterious but then he freaks out when the computer breaks. He keeps saying he doesn't know what the button does and that he's saving the world. And when he comes back we find out he had a fail safe and basically knew what the button was for.

This observation is right on the money, as I mentioned early in this thread.

Also, let's have no more of people replying that if someone is critical of or downright unhappy with the direction of the show, that they should just not watch it.
That may be true. And I may not when it comes back in Frebruary. (Pft! FEBRUARY!?) But one of the many things that distinguishes this program is the interactive fan-based community that the producers themselves have nurtured (see: The LOST Experience). And if one is disappointed in a show in which one has invested so much time then, well...where else to go to talk about it?
100%
I'm less concerned with the scientific holes in the plot than the lack of inquiry.
I haven't heard anyone wondering how DHARMA rations drop from the sky. I find that incomprehensible. Can you imagine Tom Hanks in Castaway getting regular drops of food on his deserted island and not trying to figure out who, what, why, when, and whether he can use the info to get rescued?

Yes! Thank you, "OFG".
And how is it that no one, but NO ONE on that island, especially Jack, Kate or Sawyer, has asked the "Others"--now knowing that they are not just jungle savages (and why did they wear those costumes and fake beards anyway? That'll never be answered.)--WHY they didn't HELP them when they crashed?!
Something along the lines of: "Hey, WHY didn't you HELP us when we crashed?"
Or, more specifically:
"We didn't want to crash on your island. You have food, shelter, medical supplies. Yet you left us to fend for ourselves, face bears, boars and a, er, smoke monster. When you weren't kidnapping or killing us, that is. Why, why, why?"

And with all that in mind, this business of the Others being the "good guys"? Please.

Excellent first six episodes for season 3. February can't come soon enough.

My opinion now that the so called 'mini-season" or as Bryan Burks called it "Lost 2.5" is over and one. Remember that this is almost a 1/3 of this seasons eppys so I don't want anyone saying but they can redeem themselves or it's still the beginning.

I have enjoyed 30 mins of Lost in the last "6 hours". Those 30mins weren't in anyones backstory. Nor were they any any major story. They were the last 5 mins of every episode where they waited to actually do something or start the episode and just when things were getting started they ended it. Think of course that the following week we might have a little bit to go off of or continue with, I kept watching. But never did anything really pan out. Every week there just became more or more "Soap Opera" in a box style writing.

The more I talk about this season the more I hear people say that back stories were pointless. Something I said early on. Either wrap up previous back stories you have started from season one or i guess do what they did with ecko and just kill him and it'll go away. This, apparently slated to be the "action-adventure-romance" similar to Indiana Jones season has done no real action nor adventure. But bundles and bundles of romance. Albeit whilst being the worst possible reference of a great movie series.

I understand the need by major studios to have some filler episodes. But I felt like there were 5-8 last season that were just dragging and nothing was really happening. I was more okay of it then because they never put those episodes really close, so the viewers wouldn't notice as much. But when you open and talk all about this "mini-season" and how you are going to be able to do a cool story-arc in here and everyone is excited, yay! Then the big story arc was that the others are not scary, desmond is a superhero-jesus super star like d00d and Kate is an emotional whore. That really is deviating in many many ways from what I remember Lost being.

Now in response to whomever was talking about this seasons answers. There haven't really been any. A few confirmations on things that most people on the boards have said/assumed or predicted many many weeks ago. I feel like the only things that were supposed to be "answers" turned out to only be a sentence or two about that subject so to build suspense or present 10 more questions as to what's going on. Because these others can tell you their deviant plan on lying and manipulating you but can't foresee that you may kill them or demand something when given the chance. Lame.

And the introduction of these two new characters couldn't be more annoying. Every time I see the camera pan away from our main losties over two these random new people I get irritated. The new people were hard to swallow last season. Then they killed them all. And since they did that they now need more characters so they bring in two people. One of them being Capitan Obvious character. I'm talking about the girl. Who just happens to know things like when they were searching for Ecko, the guy said "What is he looking for" and she responded with "Oh, Ecko is probably on his way to go find his brothers plane that crashed here." And it went on another few lines I think. But how the hell did she know this? Are we just supposed to assume that all red shirts are completely informed as to whats going on.And then when Locke had them go to the pearl station to make contact with the others he completely forgot that 4-5 days before this he had seen those monitors on. So, Capitan Obvious had to point that out for all our retarded losties.

The "fall finale". Well, they said there was a cliffhanger. I didn't see one. What I saw was refusing to start this episode, more than any other one, until the last 10 mins or so. Then things started happening. It ended on a lackluster "Kate RUN!!!". This episode should've started would with kate climbing out her cage and banging sawyer. Threatening Kate to convince Jack. Jack seeing them together or something lame and doing it. 15 mins into the show and things can get interesting really quickly. You can build things up until maybe the last few moments where you don't know if Kate/Sawyer are safe and if Ben will die. It'd at least had me curious. No, no. What I got here is what Bryan Burk would called episode 5.5. Now, if I remember in Feburary I have to come back to watch episode 6. I said I'd give this show the mini-season and the first new episode when it returns. Now, each week I find myself caring less and less. Especially as other shows continue to get better and better. And come on, do we seriously think Jack sliced his kidney and Juliet didn't notice? Then remember last season when Zeke was a hardass? And he just wimped over to whatever Jack wanted. Lame.

And just a thought, instead of doing these force-fed flashbacks. Maybe have episode without flashbacks therefore small things like the food drops or Jin and Sun returning to camp with Sayid can be shown. You get an extra 20 mins in each episode to show us more Island. It's becoming more clear to all of us that these flashbacks don't always have a purpose other than following your structure.

What I think should happen. They need to come out of the gate in episode 7 strong. Answers need to fly quickly and randomly. Wrap this story up. Have Jack get shot after finishing the surgery. Or even more emotional would be for the others to turn all crazy baddies on us. Have Pickett shoot Sawyer and lock Kate up. Have them let Ben die and kill Jack as well. Just have that first episode be incredibly crazy. It needs to bring this show back to life.

What they should avoid? Having Locke and the gang swing in, literally, blasting the others away with his jesus stick. Or having Desmond stop time with his new found super powers.

When I started with this first season I fell in love with one of the most masterful shows every created. Then the second season came and things started to changes. A feeling of direction started to shift but only a little. Then the opening for the third season which could've been extremely cool, felt extremely lackluster after such an interesting finale and fantastic previous premieres. I spread the word and let at least 5 people borrow my Season 1 box set and they too became fans. And now here I am. 2 dvd sets in my house. And Honestly I feel like my show ended last May. There is no reason to return in February. I feel lied to and manipulated by what TPTB have been and plan on doing. Some of the podcasts and interviews this last week or so have stated future scenarios that I just don't want on a show like this. I'm not search for answers, I'm trying to see what happened and where this show deviated from it's original intentions of mystery/suspense/adventure.

Excellent first six episodes for season 3. February can't come soon enough.

I agree with you on that one, Bald Guy. The first six episodes were excellent, and I can't wait for February 7th.

But when you open and talk all about this "mini-season" and how you are going to be able to do a cool story-arc in here and everyone is excited, yay! Then the big story arc was that the others are not scary, desmond is a superhero-jesus super star like d00d and Kate is an emotional monger. That really is deviating in many many ways from what I remember Lost being.

But one of the major themes of LOST is that things are never what they appear. If LOST isn't want you expected that's not necessarily an indication of bad writing, just that your personal taste is not fulfilled.

As a writer, I'm sure you've been confronted with people reading or experiencing your work and then being unhappy with how it progressed for no other reason that it didn't match what they wanted. That's not a reflection on your talent but on your readers' tastes. I know I have confronted that in the work I've edited and written myself. But that's the soul of being a writer, to express a personal vision regardless of if it's what people want or not. I direct my writers to do what I think is best for my company's characters regardless if that is what our audience is expecting. I find it pushes our readers and gets them either ticked off or overjoyed. Any reaction is better than no reaction at all. And by the look of it the creators of LOST definitely have you reacting to their work... and yet still coming back for more again and again. :) Perhaps they do know what they're doing.

Now in response to whomever was talking about this seasons answers. There haven't really been any. A few confirmations on things that most people on the boards have said/assumed or predicted many many weeks ago. I feel like the only things that were supposed to be "answers" turned out to only be a sentence or two about that subject so to build suspense or present 10 more questions as to what's going on. Because these others can tell you their deviant plan on lying and manipulating you but can't foresee that you may kill them or demand something when given the chance. Lame.

Well, just because they come up a plan doesn't mean it's a smart plan or that they themselves are smart. The Others are very obviously not playing with a full deck and Jack would be stupid not to take advanatge of it. I see your point, but I don't think The Others are supposed to be the evil masterminds people expect.

For me that ending, regardless if the Others should've know better, made for compelling TV.

And the introduction of these two new characters couldn't be more annoying. Every time I see the camera pan away from our main losties over two these random new people I get irritated. The new people were hard to swallow last season. Then they killed them all. And since they did that they now need more characters so they bring in two people. One of them being Capitan Obvious character. I'm talking about the girl. Who just happens to know things like when they were searching for Ecko, the guy said "What is he looking for" and she responded with "Oh, Ecko is probably on his way to go find his brothers plane that crashed here." And it went on another few lines I think. But how the hell did she know this? Are we just supposed to assume that all red shirts are completely informed as to whats going on.And then when Locke had them go to the pearl station to make contact with the others he completely forgot that 4-5 days before this he had seen those monitors on. So, Capitan Obvious had to point that out for all our retarded losties.

Yes, we're to asume they talk to each other. Why shouldn't we? Just because we didn't see it? Do we need to see every conversation on the Island to know they happened? Wouldn't seeing Nikki find out about the drug plane be redundant and boring?

The "fall finale". Well, they said there was a cliffhanger. I didn't see one. What I saw was refusing to start this episode, more than any other one, until the last 10 mins or so. Then things started happening. It ended on a lackluster "Kate RUN!!!". This episode should've started would with kate climbing out her cage and banging sawyer. Threatening Kate to convince Jack. Jack seeing them together or something lame and doing it. 15 mins into the show and things can get interesting really quickly. You can build things up until maybe the last few moments where you don't know if Kate/Sawyer are safe and if Ben will die. It'd at least had me curious. No, no. What I got here is what Bryan Burk would called episode 5.5. Now, if I remember in Feburary I have to come back to watch episode 6. I said I'd give this show the mini-season and the first new episode when it returns. Now, each week I find myself caring less and less. Especially as other shows continue to get better and better. And come on, do we seriously think Jack sliced his kidney and Juliet didn't notice? Then remember last season when Zeke was a hardass? And he just wimped over to whatever Jack wanted. Lame.

Well, I thought the entire episode was compelling.

People were already expecting Kate and Sawyer to get it on from the previews. Saving it for later got people to watch the entire episode and enjoy the build-up. But having the scene between Kate and Jack with the glass between them conveyed their highly emotional relationship, creating a higher emotional pitch and sense of betrayal when they followed it with the highly physical love scene between Sawyer and Kate which was a harsh blow to the Jaters. Switching the two would've lessened the impact of the Jack/Kate scene.

And in the final moments we got exactly what you're asking for: I don't know if Kate and Sawyer are safe and I don't know if Ben is going to die.

And just a thought, instead of doing these force-fed flashbacks. Maybe have episode without flashbacks therefore small things like the food drops or Jin and Sun returning to camp with Sayid can be shown. You get an extra 20 mins in each episode to show us more Island. It's becoming more clear to all of us that these flashbacks don't always have a purpose other than following your structure.

Is it really a deal-breaker that you need to see Sun and Jin come back to camp to know they're back in the camp? Can't the creators trust that the audience is intelligent enough to understand that if they didn't show them returning to camp then the return was uneventful and that showing the audience something uneventful is boring and pointless?

What I think should happen. They need to come out of the gate in episode 7 strong. Answers need to fly quickly and randomly. Wrap this story up. Have Jack get shot after finishing the surgery. Or even more emotional would be for the others to turn all crazy baddies on us. Have Pickett shoot Sawyer and lock Kate up. Have them let Ben die and kill Jack as well. Just have that first episode be incredibly crazy. It needs to bring this show back to life.

A lot of what you suggest above would have people even more upset than everything you've been complaining about so far. What answers particularly do you want to come "randomly"? If they come so quickly and so randonly, then were they really that important enough to be waiting for and willing to abandon the show for?

OK... Ben and Jack die. Why -- just to kill them? Do you have a plan to resolve Jack's father issues? Craziness for craziness sake will strike people as desperate and ultimately pointless, which is what a lot of people are already complaining about, no?

Do people need to be shot or die to make the show exciting?

What they should avoid? Having Locke and the gang swing in, literally, blasting the others away with his jesus stick. Or having Desmond stop time with his new found super powers.

Why? I'm looking forward to this if it happens!

Excellent first six episodes for season 3. February can't come soon enough.


I agree,... I loved each Episode.

The Writers did a great job.

The premiere gave me hope. Then each episode chipped at that solid block of hope until nothing was left after I Do.

I'm not coming back. Neither is my wife. My kids are undecided, but my daughter is most likely a goner as well because she hates what's happened to the female characters. I'll be checking in at The Fuselage and I might come back if there's something interesting and if they manage to go back to compelling, INTELLIGENT characters, but for now... "We're done here."

Crimson, What I meant by answers need to come quick and random I mean they need to be learned accidentally rather than during the last 5 mins of the show because thats the most important part because having something crazy happen then rather than the othe 30 mins will allow us to do a mini cliffhanger on every eppy hoping itll bring more viewers. When it is only doing the opposite. Loosing viewers.

In regards to these 6 episodes.. I really don't have any ideas that I want this show to do and hope it does. There are things that I think that might be very cool or interesting to see this show in particular play out but i'm here for the ride. I was "let down" as you said because they played something out differently than I had thought. No. Me and... well just about everyone I know that watch lost, about 10-15 people were thoroughly disappointed and about 80 percent won't return in February. And this seems to have been something to just generated more momentum throughout this season. The viewership for this show is dying.

And no it's not a "Deal breaker" to not see jin/sun come back to the beach. It is though when you just randomly interject them back into the show like the day+ walk back was easy and really nothing happened. LAME. And Nikki randomly being "one of the guys" is a deal breaker. They just keep bringing these no-nothing characters in an attempt to further the plot and then kill said character. One of the reasons i loved the first season was because the large 14 person cast. I was fine with Rousseau and the other being other characters. But then they brought in like 5 characters and killed them all. But kept insisting that they were important. Which really they could've done it alot simpler by having people on the beach or further in the island be those character. I feel that a good chuck of last season now was filler. And I still believe that the focal purpose of these new character is and will be pointless filler. We will probably have them involved in a love triangle or they'll be others or something lame that has already been done in this show. It's too soon for this show to repeat themes/arcs but they are. And that is bad writing/loss of creativity.

Also, I think from a strictly dialouge point of view this season has had the most laugh out loud lines. A few in each episode. That is bad.

As for your "compelling" tv... maybe you are one that things compelling is an episode of CSI... But the reason I watched LOST was because it was fast paced, different, genre bending and had a large cast with interesting plot points. This season we saw a dragging conclusion to a 3 year love triangle which people refused to let die. They still are tiptoeing around questions that aren't HUGE from the first season. Why couldn't we see how locke lost his legs... oh yeah... they don't have any real flashbacks left for his character. So they will just keep hammering away at things we already know a time over. He has trust issues. Great. We know this. There was no cliffhanger. They ended the episode. It was a harsh cut to black. Just when the actual plot for the episode was beginning. IMO, this should've been the second episode of the season. That would've made the Jack/Kate/Sawyer story arc be concluding when we returned. They could've actually ended with a real cliffhanger. Someone gets shot? Leaves? Whatever. If Soap Opera Romance is compelling TV then yes this was a fantastic episode.

And I was making a point about what they should do. Alot of their initial fans are fleeing faster than the water in my toilet bowel. They need to actually do something. Something real and unique. Which doesn't mean killing someone but killing someone important like kate/jack/sawyer ect would mean a lot of potential cool story arcs. And I think that it is something very real that can happen. And probably should happen. But I think it's a little too late. The romance aspect of this is being played up and out

:bored: Errmmm.... and why wouldn't these things be able to run on geothermal energy? In the very beginning of Season 2 when Sayid and Jack were exploring the hatch, Sayid made reference to a geothermal generator powering the hatch, so this possibility is not without precedent.

It's not an outrageous assumption that this generator could supply all the energy needed on the island. A geothermal power plant provides about 25% of the electricity used on the Big Island of Hawaii (population ~165,000). Geothermal power theoretically could serve 100% of the electrical needs of 39 countries (over 620,000,000 people) in Africa, Central/ South America and the Pacific.

Geothermal generators are expensive to construct but considering that the projects on the island were sponsored by Alvar Hanso, a very wealthy individual, it's not out of the question. So, making broad statements about the impossibility of generating power on the island is rather uninformed. (Notice I'm attacking your "argument" not your grammar! :biggrin:)


Here, I had this great set of paragraphs on Geothermal Energy, and Lost_In out-researches me. :eek2:


as i mentioned before and will again say, I never re-read my own writing especially when it's on a forum. I'm writing 100+ wpm trying to get everything out of my head at the time.


Editing ... Proofing ... Choosing carefully what you want to say ... they're not bad things, Wasted.

Actually, fun, when the work is done. :D

And I was making a point about what they should do. Alot of their initial fans are fleeing faster than the water in my toilet bowel. They need to actually do something. Something real and unique. Which doesn't mean killing someone but killing someone important like kate/jack/sawyer ect would mean a lot of potential cool story arcs. And I think that it is something very real that can happen. And probably should happen. But I think it's a little too late. The romance aspect of this is being played up and out

That's a very bad analogy....

Anyway, I couldn't disagree more. Ratings are still great, and very consistant over the course of the 6 episode mini. Now, whether they return or not, is remaining to be seen.

Lost is a unique story,.. it's unfolding at a pace that I find refreshing. I'm not sure what you're wanting out of this story Waste. I mean we could debate the merits of the show forever. ..,and I mean FOREVER. You're of the opinion the writing has changed, and the story arc is nowhere near what it was in season 1. I believe all 3 seasons have there own individual story. I personally loved them all. I wouldn't have changed a thing. This show is still hands down, one of the best drama's I've ever seen.

As for your "compelling" tv... maybe you are one that things compelling is an episode of CSI... But the reason I watched LOST was because it was fast paced, different, genre bending and had a large cast with interesting plot points.

Well, I never said anything about CSI. I've watched one complete episode of CSI in my life, the one directed by Quentin Tarantino. I don't know how you can infer anything about what television I watch or anything else about me for that matter from these posts, as I certainly don't do that with you.

The fast pace, the genre bending, the large cast with interesting plot points for me and 17 Million other people like me are all still there. Again, it isn't a fact that those things aren't there, this is your opinion. But I guess my opinion shouldn't count because you say I watch a TV show I don't actually watch. :)

Your opinion however does count and I've apperciated the passion you've put behind every one of your posts even as as I and a lot of others disagree.

I've been very interested to see this thread progress. It reinforces in my mind what Damon and Carlton said at Comic-Con that the show was meant to be a cult show, meaning the show isn't meant for everyone, not even meant for most people. They were victims of their own success in the first season in that people thought they were watching Castaway or Survivor with random things like polar bears, hatches and monsters. The moment they started giving explanations for these things, about 5 million people didn't like the answers and started leaving the show. Meanwhile 17 Million people still stuck around. Quite frankly it should be lower as genre shows have almost never acheived such high ratings.

Lost is a unique story,.. it's unfolding at a pace that I find refreshing. I'm not sure what you're wanting out of this story Waste. I mean we could debate the merits of the show forever. ..,and I mean FOREVER. You're of the opinion the writing has changed, and the story arc is nowhere near what it was in season 1. I believe all 3 seasons have there own individual story. I personally loved them all. I wouldn't have changed a thing. This show is still hands down, one of the best drama's I've ever seen.
For me the bad writing doesn't have to do with the way the overall story arc is being handled. I was quite prepared to wait for a very long time to get "answers" so long as I was watching well-crafted episodes. Where the writing has become glaringly bad this season is on the level of individual scenes, mostly those involving the Losties remaining on the beach. I find it painful to watch actors whose skill I've come to respect over the last two years having to struggle through such horrifically awful lines.

I've been very interested to see this thread progress. It reinforces in my mind what Damon and Carlton said at Comic-Con that the show was meant to be a cult show, meaning the show isn't meant for everyone, not even meant for most people. They were victims of their own success in the first season in that people thought they were watching Castaway or Survivor with random things like polar bears, hatches and monsters. The moment they started giving explanations for these things, about 5 million people didn't like the answers and started leaving the show. Meanwhile 17 Million people still stuck around. Quite frankly it should be lower as genre shows have almost never acheived such high ratings.
But I think the very viewers they're losing are those who were most into the "cult" of Lost--those of us who were the most dedicated, who watched every episode more than once to be sure we picked up on all the important details, who introduced our friends to the show so we'd have more people to discuss it with. Again, I'm not disenchanted because I'm not getting answers, or because I don't like the answers I'm getting. I'm disenchanted because the overall production values seem to have deteriorated over the summer, because the writers no longer seem to remember details from one episode to the next, because the characters are no longer acting "in character," and because I've been forced to endure way too much soap opera "romance" and gratuitous sadistic violence during the last six weeks.

I'm disenchanted because the overall production values seem to have deteriorated over the summer, because the writers no longer seem to remember details from one episode to the next, because the characters are no longer acting "in character," and because I've been forced to endure way too much soap opera "romance" and gratuitous sadistic violence during the last six weeks.

I like the points you're trying to make. But I don't follow you. How about some specifics if you want me to change my opinion. I have no problem with the characters changing. mainly because in the enviroment I work in. People change everyday. One day they're happy go lucky. The next they're hiding like a frightened turtle. Some days I'm 'Mister Serious' at work. Other days I'm more like Sawyer, and trying my best to get under everyones skin.

The things that you're noticing on the characters, have been there since the beginning. Locke is a good choice. One minute, king of the jungle, another minute later he's leaning up against a tree crying. It happens in life, and it's happened on this show since the very beginning.

Andromache, I couldn't agree more. The people that were in the show for it's genre bending, sci-fi/horror/fantasy craziness are leaving. I'm not sure if it's because of the stalling of the current season or if it's because of the turn the writers are doing with the play on romance more.

I also understand why alot of people get so defensive on these boards. It's hard when something you put so much time and effort and loved so much drastically changes for the worse. It might take some people til the end of this season to actually stop watching. But The viewership dropped almost 4 million according to Nielsen ratings from last year. The faux cliffhanger and lack of story this season won't help when it returns in 3 months. There are other shows that are building strong momentum right now, i'm thinking Heroes and Battlestar becoming more prime time. Also, I haven't watched but I'm hearing the ratings are soaring on Criminal Minds.

The show is sluggish. If you were to sit down over the course of a week and watch season 1 to the last episode it'd become alot more evident to you what is happening. I did just that before the beginning of these season. I went back to season 1 after i bought my season 2 set. Watched all of them and then the premiere and was in "Ah" of how things have changed or started too. Last season I started to worry but I generally liked last season. But then this season, 6 episodes, almost a 1/3 of this season has meant nothing to the entire story.

And it is painful to watch such great actors read such horrible dialouge. It is devastating. The directing, the score and for the most part all top notch. But just as people can confuse good directing with good story, I think alot of people fell in love with the actual actors/characters and are defending what they were and not the actual show.

And Crimson, I understand having 15-17 million people watching this is amazing. But it is also one of ABC's only hit show. And it is also it's most expensive averaging about 5 million an episode. The more viewership that is lost the more likely the funding will drop and/or you will get the real TPTB that step in and cause some changes. And maybe a loss of viewers will be a good thing. It will mean that we will get back on track with the story and characters.

Coop, Characters grow in stories. They don't change day to day. That is bad writing. The first season is when you establish what a character is, acts, does and means. From their the character should grow. Locke is the worst example you could've used as I've stated numerous times him and Jack were the most bizzare characters last season. Almost every other episode these characters flip-flopped in ideals. It was back and forth everytime that something happened. It is bad writing. Any book on developing characters will tell you this. You establish them, then the problem and then you have them learn/grow from said problem. And that doesn't mean having them flipflop personalities and ideals every few hours.

I like the points you're trying to make. But I don't follow you. How about some specifics if you want me to change my opinion. I have no problem with the characters changing. mainly because in the enviroment I work in. People change everyday. One day they're happy go lucky. The next they're hiding like a frightened turtle. Some days I'm 'Mister Serious' at work. Other days I'm more like Sawyer, and trying my best to get under everyones skin.

The things that you're noticing on the characters, have been there since the beginning. Locke is a good choice. One minute, king of the jungle, another minute later he's leaning up against a tree crying. It happens in life, and it's happened on this show since the very beginning.

Indeed... Locke essentually lost his faith in Season 2... the hatch he thought would finally be the end of his lifelong hunt for meaning and purpose turned out to be something incredibly tedious, boring and possibly a total joke. TPTB broke him down to build him back up and we see the result now: a Locke more assured than ever that he has a purpose and destiny. Getting to that point is a struggle, and often not pretty to watch. That doesn't necessarily mean its bad writing, but they're taking chances on what the viewing audience sees as realistic characterizations, so they get strong reactions of both support and disgust.

And Wastedmind, Damon has already said he wants the show canceled after five seasons, (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1097129&postcount=1) that he thinks he'll have to cut a deal with ABC/Touchstone to let him cancel it. That doesn't sound like ABC's going to be in a mood anytime soon to cancel it regardless of how "low" the ratings go if Damon has to virtually beg them to do it. Besides, ABC/Disney make so much money off the other parts of the LOST brand that have nothing to do with the show (the puzzles, the toys, the Lost Experience, the coming video game and cell phone mobisodes) that they could afford to drop viewers in a way few shows can.

You guys complain about the show being predictable and then turn around and complain about not knowing enough of the answers to the mysteries.

Which is it guys?

You all should hush up and just be glad you have something interesting to watch instead of 'Celebrities Dancing' or 'Celebrities On The Road' or '3.25 Men'!

What's predictable is that we aren't getting answers to the mysteries. :D

Seriously...most of the people who are having problems could literally NOT care less about answers. I don't care. I'll happily wait. Our problem is with bad writing.

I absolutely loved the first 6 episodes!!! Watch them in a row, as a collective bunch of episodes, and you will get the complete feel of the mini-series... And it had a real Lost-esque Season 1 feel about it IMO (even though I loved Season 2).

I think it was Bryan Burk who said, "think of this series as Season 2.5. We were wrapping up all the things that happened in the Season 2 Finale and setting up everything that's going to happen in Season 3 when we return in February"...

And that's EXACTLY what has happened!!!

- At the end of the Season 2 Finale, Desmond had turned the failsafe key and the sky turned purple and the ground shook. We didn't know what happened, and whether or not Desmond, Locke or Eko (who were still in the hatch at the time) survived.
- At the same time, Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley followed Michael into a trap set up by the Others. They got caught and taken to the Pala Ferry where Hurley was released and told to go back to camp and tell everyone to "never come here". Ben then says J/K/S are "coming home with us". So where's home, and why these 3?
-The last remaining mystery of Season 2 (apart from the Challah scene of course) is what happened to Sayid, Sun and Jin on the sailboat. In the Season 2 finale, Sayid had realised that Michael had been comprimised and with Sun and Jin sailed to the Others "decoy" camp to scout it. Once he scouted it ("their positions and numbers"), he set a fire of black smoke so J/K/S/H/M could meet up with them. (There was a mystery at the time as to whether or not Sayid lit the black smoke fire that we saw).

The fail-safe and fate of Desmond, Locke, and Eko
We now know what happened when Desmond turn the failsafe - the electromagnetic anomoly that was behind the button (and bringing the plane down) was destroyed, and the hatch imploded in on itself. Locke, Desmond and Eko all survived by somehow being blown out of the hatch when it imploded, but this has not yet been revealed how (but it will, so if this is a gripe for some fans, its pure impatience and Lost isn't the show for you. It's been "slow-paced" for 2 seasons now. You should realise). The writers have promised we will know why soon.

Sayid, Sun and Jin and what happened to them on the Sail Boat
We know that it was in fact Sayid who set the "black-smoke" fire at the end of Season 2. After he scouted the "decoy" camp, he waited for J/K/S/H/M to come meet them... But they never did. Sayid/Sun/Jin then sailed further north where they find the Pala Ferry. Sayid then sets another fire, this time with the intent of setting up a trap for the Others. It backfires and the Others get their boat, not before Sun shoots "one of them".

Where did the Other's take Jack, Kate and Sawyer and why
We now also know that the Others have a little "surbaban village" hidden somewhere on the island. But this wasn't the "home" Ben was talking about taking J/K/S. He was talking about a small island seperated from the main island, about twice the size of alcatraz. This island holds another one of the Dharma Initiative's stations, the Hydra. The Hydra is a zoological station that has both an above ground sector and an underground sector (for sharks, dolphins etc...). We know that this is where the Others took J/K/S. We ALSO know that Jack was taken by the Others so that he could operate on a spinal tumour on Ben, who only has a short time to live. We DON'T know exactly why Kate and Sawyer where with the Others, but we are assuming it was as "bait" so as to get Jack to do the surgery (they put them together to "get" them together, if you know what I mean).

So when you look at it like this, Season 2.5 has wrapped up the season 2 finale and set us in motion for Season 3. And I recommend everyone (maybe after taking a break from Lost, we do have 13 weeks you know!) sit down and watch the 6 episodes IN A ROW as a collective. You get a much better feel for it IMO. And it was great!!!

Lost ain't goin' no where, my friends. ;) :cool: :biggrin:

Maybe it's just not the way you would write it.

I'm just saying, how boring would it be if they told us everything about everything in two or three episodes. Then what?

I think they will explain more as they go along. I also think that it is kind of crazy to be looking for some grand master plot theory when we are only six episodes into season three.

Think about where we'll be if this show actually makes it to six or seven seasons. How much will we know then about Dharma and Rossoue and Cindy and all the other unanwsered questions.

I really think that you guys are just mad that you don't know the answers already. If so, go watch 'Two and a Half Men' where every problem gets solved in thirty minutes or less.
100%
I fully agree with Absolutly-Lost 1

Andromache, I couldn't agree more. The people that were in the show for it's genre bending, sci-fi/horror/fantasy craziness are leaving. I'm not sure if it's because of the stalling of the current season or if it's because of the turn the writers are doing with the play on romance more.

I also understand why alot of people get so defensive on these boards. It's hard when something you put so much time and effort and loved so much drastically changes for the worse. It might take some people til the end of this season to actually stop watching. But The viewership dropped almost 4 million according to Nielsen ratings from last year. The faux cliffhanger and lack of story this season won't help when it returns in 3 months. There are other shows that are building strong momentum right now, i'm thinking Heroes and Battlestar becoming more prime time. Also, I haven't watched but I'm hearing the ratings are soaring on Criminal Minds.

The show is sluggish. If you were to sit down over the course of a week and watch season 1 to the last episode it'd become alot more evident to you what is happening. I did just that before the beginning of these season. I went back to season 1 after i bought my season 2 set. Watched all of them and then the premiere and was in "Ah" of how things have changed or started too. Last season I started to worry but I generally liked last season. But then this season, 6 episodes, almost a 1/3 of this season has meant nothing to the entire story.

And it is painful to watch such great actors read such horrible dialouge. It is devastating. The directing, the score and for the most part all top notch. But just as people can confuse good directing with good story, I think alot of people fell in love with the actual actors/characters and are defending what they were and not the actual show.

And Crimson, I understand having 15-17 million people watching this is amazing. But it is also one of ABC's only hit show. And it is also it's most expensive averaging about 5 million an episode. The more viewership that is lost the more likely the funding will drop and/or you will get the real TPTB that step in and cause some changes. And maybe a loss of viewers will be a good thing. It will mean that we will get back on track with the story and characters.

Coop, Characters grow in stories. They don't change day to day. That is bad writing. The first season is when you establish what a character is, acts, does and means. From their the character should grow. Locke is the worst example you could've used as I've stated numerous times him and Jack were the most bizzare characters last season. Almost every other episode these characters flip-flopped in ideals. It was back and forth everytime that something happened. It is bad writing. Any book on developing characters will tell you this. You establish them, then the problem and then you have them learn/grow from said problem. And that doesn't mean having them flipflop personalities and ideals every few hours.
I'm pretty open minded, so I do spend a bit of time in the "Eh, could have been better" threads (Now "Didn't love it") and everything that you just said is almost a complete reptition of what people who didn't like the show in Season 2 said... And I'm not saying it's wrong, or bad, either...

It's just you mentioned THIS season as being the problem, yet EVERYTHING you said, people have been complaining was beginning to happen as early as EARLY Season 2. IMO, it's purley up to interpretation. If you don't like the show, that is fine. And because your attached, I welcome coming onto the boards and discussing.

But don't make it FACT that the show is going downhill because that is YOUR opinion, and the opinion of a few other people on the internet of all things.

I for one love the ride. This show is about characters growing, as to the plot. And even slowly our knowledge of what's going on. I honestly think the writers are doing a great job, and no, I'm not defending what they USED to be, cause I thought the mini series was excellent.

I am starting to have a fear that if the show would continue, or have the ratings randomly soar again, which is extremely doubtful when a show begins to loose viewers in the millions it will rarely shoot back up. Whether that means people are just buying the dvds or what. But if it does continue to go on for 6 season, which regardless of what Damon wants, i've also read many times that he they may leave the show if they don't let them end it when they want.

My fear is that if the ratings to drop a little further, next season we may see a sudden halt to the show. Think of Alias and if anyone here watched that show they know the first 2 seasons were really good and then season 3 hit and everything changed. And ratings steadily began to drop. Come beginning of Season 5 they announced that they were canceling it. Then we got a slew of very good episodes and an okay ending to the series. One of the things that also plagued Alias that is starting to here is they began to focus alot more on family and romance. My fear is that Lost will hit season 4 or early 5 and get the word from ABC that it's over and they will try and rush all these answers out because they held on to sooo many of them and then they have maybe 15-20 episodes to get every major episode out without having it feel rushed.

I tried watching these 6 episodes or mini-series back to back. And I still got the feeling of being stalled. Season 2, as I stated numerous times is where many problems did start. But I also mentioned that in the 24 episodes there were really only a handful that I felt were having "problems" and none of these were back to back. In this season, I feel that the first 6 episodes were problematic and plagued with bad writing.

I was fairly displeased with this 6-pack fall season. I was also incredibly disappointed by the "let's 'reset' the characters that people already like and make them annoying" second season. I am not a Lost apologist by any means. However, Lost is not going to get canceled next year. It is in absolutely no danger commercially (though creatively, who knows what's going on there sometimes).

My fear is that if the ratings to drop a little further, next season we may see a sudden halt to the show. Think of Alias and if anyone here watched that show they know the first 2 seasons were really good and then season 3 hit and everything changed. And ratings steadily began to drop. Come beginning of Season 5 they announced that they were canceling it. Then we got a slew of very good episodes and an okay ending to the series. One of the things that also plagued Alias that is starting to here is they began to focus alot more on family and romance. My fear is that Lost will hit season 4 or early 5 and get the word from ABC that it's over and they will try and rush all these answers out because they held on to sooo many of them and then they have maybe 15-20 episodes to get every major episode out without having it feel rushed.


Is there no hope that perhaps JJ & Co learned their lesson from Alias and will do better this time? I mean isn't that what we're asking of the show, that people grow throughout. Is it then fair to give JJ another chance and see if he isnt going to change something and make it work out better than Alias?

Also I really liked Alias all the way through the end of season four (I have not yet seen season five because it hasn't come out on DVD yet).

I'm pretty open minded, so I do spend a bit of time in the "Eh, could have been better" threads (Now "Didn't love it") and everything that you just said is almost a complete reptition of what people who didn't like the show in Season 2 said... And I'm not saying it's wrong, or bad, either...

It's just you mentioned THIS season as being the problem, yet EVERYTHING you said, people have been complaining was beginning to happen as early as EARLY Season 2. IMO, it's purley up to interpretation. If you don't like the show, that is fine. And because your attached, I welcome coming onto the boards and discussing.

But don't make it FACT that the show is going downhill because that is YOUR opinion, and the opinion of a few other people on the internet of all things.

I for one love the ride. This show is about characters growing, as to the plot. And even slowly our knowledge of what's going on. I honestly think the writers are doing a great job, and no, I'm not defending what they USED to be, cause I thought the mini series was excellent.

You and I share the same opinion. I completely agree with what you stated. There are some very happy fans in other sites and threads as to this season, and Lost is still doing 16-17 million viewers and is doing VERY good in the demos.

I really enjoyed the mini-series, and although it certainly had it's flaws, overall, it was very good. It's funny, I've read how some feel that Season Two was not great, but I've been watching the episodes back to back, and it was a FABULOUS season. I think the writer's are doing a good job. The problem is that viewers are just not patient. Sorry, six episodes and people are already screaming about unanswered questions. I think Damon and JJ have set the table for the February - May run of episodes, and I can't wait to see what they put out.

As a former fan of Alias, I agree that it somewhat lost its focus through the middle. Although, I think that might have had more to do with the off-screen breakup of Vartan and Garner. It seemed that Vartan was written out of the show too early. Also, once the initial gig was up with the fake-CIA station, Alias wandered a bit.

Regardless, I still love LOST and will stick with it until the end.

as a minor note, lost is still a hit show, ranking at about #10 each week consistently. last week's midseason finale ranked #8. 20,000 people watched it (as comapred to last week's #1 show CSI, which 29,000 people watched).

all the talk about lost being cancelled is a little crazy. it is one of abc's top shows. it isnt going anywhere any time soon. the ratings have slipped considerably since its debut, when it was an unstoppable ratings grabber. the ratings for the last few weeks, in fact, have even been higher than they were at the end of the 2nd season.

so the ratings are not what they once were, but they are still pretty good... enough to keep it on for a few more years. the awards arent coming any more though, and the critics have turned their back on the show as well. i think matthew fox may get an emmy nod this year however. thats just speculation though.

arguing about how you, personally, like the show is productive, but the numbers don't lie. its a top 10 hit.

I think the show has finally settled down to a 'core' audience. Some people just watch something because its the 'hot new thing' so they won't feel left out at the water cooler but as time goes by they realize its not their 'thing'. Those kind of fans drop by the wayside. I agree that the show is not in any danger of being cancelled.

Lost was an idea that was so brilliant and original that there was concern they could pull it off. Yet audiances fell in love with it. There are plenty of shows out there filled with romance and action. Lost is unique.... it is almost literary with elements of character development, thematic qualities, symbolism and the questions that arise about the essence of human nature.

Give us answers but only a little and a lot more mystery. Season 1 had a great balance and all the elements that make it Lost.

Is there no hope that perhaps JJ & Co learned their lesson from Alias and will do better this time?
:24:


Oh. . .you were serious?

Sorry. :hide:

I will first start with a comment on us tv.I find it hard to comprehend that shows like csi,ncis,criminal minds and a lot more of them are so populer and get high ratings.shows that fetuer a plot or a story that wraps up in a 1 hour episode are just boring and can only be watched 2 or 3 times until the dialogue and the flow of the shoe gets predictable.

***Mod edited*** I loved season 1 and 2 equaly.I never had problems regarding the pace the mysteries were reveling it self or flashbacks, loved every one of them including all the twists the show took.(especially the first 3 episodes of season 2 it was tv at its best)

but beside the opennig scene of the season the feelings from last 2 seasons never returned.
the whole direction the show took just dont feel wright.that could have been ignored, but the wrighting of dialogues between characters is so soap-opra like and goes nowhere.insted of a well paced balanced 1 hour episode the story gets intresting only half way in to the episode.huge plot lines that the viewer suppose to fill(and no, i am not stupid because i dont.I didnt need to until now=major flaw)
and of course the flashbacks-you know what i mean.

I am not saying lost had no flaw till now,we just over looked it subconsciously becaus lost had a uniqe balanced focus.

:24:


Oh. . .you were serious?

Sorry. :hide:

:drowsy:

hi guys id like to say that after the season one finale we were hooked :) things since then have been talked about and talked about and analyzed to death:mad: its not surprising people arent pleased:mad: i still love the show and some things are best left unanswered if you had all the answers now it would be pointless watching:rolleyes: and would be very dissapointing i remember what i like about the show and im still happy with it :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: so should you,

Now, whats my problem with this show? I am a writer/director and I'm not sure if that helps but it definetely make me look at this show from a writers POV. And last season I guessed long before things came out or began becoming clear what would happen. And after the finale i guessed what would happen this season. Thus far I'm right.



***editedYou 'guessed' about the tumour? You 'guessed' about the second island? You 'guessed' only Ecko would die, after surviving a polar bear attack, at the whim of a cloud of smoke that was acting after Ecko's lack of contrition?

***mod edited

For real. How could you predict all those things? I mean, I understand you're a director, but cmon. I never expected the tumor or Eko's death. Do you look at spoilers Wastedmind? Because then I could understand predicting Eko's death after the spoiler came out, but I still think Lost is a show that can still pull some surprises. And if you're so confident why don't you post your predictions (no spoilers!) for the rest of the season. Then we'll seeif they're right in February.

And if you're so confident why don't you post your predictions (no spoilers!) for the rest of the season. Then we'll seeif they're right in February.
Unless something really bad happens to Desmond. I don't wanna know about that! :no2:

Otherwise, why don't you do that? It'd sure be interesting to re-read them in late May and see how close you were. If nothing else, it'd be good for a :24:, yeah?

I've had the pleasure of watching all of Lost on DVD only recently so haven't been a long time fan. But I will say that, coming to it as a newb and seeing the whole thing in one arc over just a few weeks, I find it has been utterly compelling and expertly drawn as far as the storyline and characters go....the best bit of drama I've seen for years.

Out of the countless hours so far, the one and only thing that jolted me out of my suspension of disbelief was the very oddly handled introduction of that new couple. But that's it. Amazing really!.

The show started brilliantly and hasn't lost its edge at all IMO.

I think it's undeniable that the show isn't as good as it was in season one. But that's somewhat understandable -- it is impossible to keep that level of scriptwriting.

It's like saying the Rocky sequels weren't as good as the original.

My biggest beef is that the writers absolutely refuse to reveal any significant island mysteries. It's almost as if season one didn't happen, and that we're watching an entirely different show.

Sometimes, it seems that major storylines (the hatch, the tailies) served absolutely no purpose. None.

Season 2 advanced no plots (except the introduction of 'Henry') and barely answered any of the mysteries still lingering from season 1.

Sometimes, it seems that major storylines (the hatch, the tailies) served absolutely no purpose. None.
How did the hatch serve "no purpose"? At the end of season 1 the only thing we were interested in was what the hatch contained. The hatch had the map, the vaccine, DESMOND, the orientation films and countless other revelations. The tailies included Eko who revealed the origins of the mary statues and plane as well as being one of the more interesting characters on lost. What do you classify as purposeful exactly?

Season 2 advanced no plots (except the introduction of 'Henry') and barely answered any of the mysteries still lingering from season 1.
I strongly disagree with this. Of course some plotlines and mysteries from series 1 are left open, if you expected EVERYTHING you were asking after the end of s1 to be answered then you'd be expecting a very short running show. A lot of stuff was revealed like I mentioned above but the best thing about the show is how it misleads and withholds stuff from you until it is the right time to do so.

but the best thing about the show is how it misleads and withholds stuff from you until it is the right time to do so.

Amen

That's the beauty of Lost. It leaves you lost!. Things get thrown in, jumbled up, answered and then altered so your feet are never on the ground. Things that seem as if they're becoming clearer are sharply pulled out of focus....and nowhere more so in the past dozen episodes. I could watch this stuff on and on because the story and setting is just right for these constant shifts. If it doesn't appeal then some people are watching the wrong show.

Season 3 has started as oddly and nail-bitingly as ever, IMO.

Hopefully, the pace will pick up. One thing that it seems to me is that we're being introduced to new characters and the pace drags when that happens. At the same time, the characters back at the beach are being neglected as far as stories about them. It's almost like there needs to be a second show to keep pace with those characters, if we're to be paying so much attention to the Others at this time. Obviously, that's not to happen. However, it sure would be nice for the producers/writers to focus on the overall story and not to get pulled away by gimics to make us watch. The main story ought to be good enough to do that on its own.

I don't think the jump the shark moment will be as simple as Jack leaving the island for a few episodes. Finding Desmond in the Hatch in the Season 2 premier was shocking and the other 48 days was huge. Regardless of your overall opinion of season 2, these two story twists were epic. I honestly don't believe the writers and producers of the show will doing anything that is less than mind blowing with the remainder of season 3.

We already know (sort of) that Michael and Walt got off the island and we already know that Ben accepted Jack's condition of getting off the island. There really would be nothing shocking or jaw dropping if Jack simply disappears from the island unless they show us how to get off the island and in the process show us the island isn't exactly what we think it is.

Either way, my feeling is that Lost season 3 will redeem itself with some amazing twists and revelations about the island and the others in the coming episodes.

Hopefully, the pace will pick up. One thing that it seems to me is that we're being introduced to new characters and the pace drags when that happens. At the same time, the characters back at the beach are being neglected as far as stories about them. It's almost like there needs to be a second show to keep pace with those characters, if we're to be paying so much attention to the Others at this time. Obviously, that's not to happen. However, it sure would be nice for the producers/writers to focus on the overall story and not to get pulled away by gimics to make us watch. The main story ought to be good enough to do that on its own.

I don't think the Losties on the beach were neglected. I say this only because Damon and Cuse both stated that the six-episode arc was specifically designed as a self-contained mini-series to introduce the Others. Now, unfortunately, those on the beach took a backseat, but imho, I don't think the six episodes were any less dramatic, exciting, and riveting because of it.

Once February comes around, Lost will return to it's original format of showcasing all characters. It probably would have been better if the producers would have explained the self-contained arc concept from the get-go because I didn't know that it was designed and filmed that way until AFTER "I Do" aired. Now, that I understand that they deliberately showcased the Others (and Jack, Kate, and Sawyer by being captives), it makes a lot more sense to me why the Losties on the beach were not shown so much.

It sounds like the rest of the season is going to be fabulous. I'm one of those viewers who really enjoyed the first six, so it's all gravy for me.

my belief. So far, so good.
yeah, i'd love to know what happened to Desmond.
I'd LOVE to know what happened to the only tallie (tail end of the plane), bernard.

but all i've been thinking about lately is, what the hell will Jack do?

but that's why i got into lost, the 2nd pilot in.
it gives me something to look forward too. (don't read into this too much)
it gives me something to talk about the next week with friends.

or, in simpler terms, i love it. all of it.

It's hard to exactly pin-point what's off about this season, but somehow inconsistencies have creeped in with regards to how characters interact and the choices they make. Or, I should say, perceived inconsistencies. I really don't find Locke's quest for purpose and his decision to abandon the hatch all that jarring. While many fans are wont to portray Locke as a robust, determined character, I think we're giving him too much credit. Here is a man that is entrenched in an endless battle with his father and thus also his identity. Heck, he even goes to the extent and joins a sect to somehow bridge that gap.

Make no mistake, Locke is mentally and physically infirm before the crash and judging by his wavering resolve on the island, his infirmities persist also after the crash. This is not consistent with an all-out hunter. An all-out, through-and-through hunter would have shot and killed that police officer. A hunter would be committed to the primitivism the early incarnation of Locke exhibited. He certainly would not start questioning such elusive ideas as purpose and faith -- harken back to his conversation with the island in the sweat lodge for recent proof. Implicit in the name Locke is the allusion to the philosopher; and philosopher's are never absolute. He'll never accept the cold facts of his circumstance, as would the hunter. It's all consistent, I assure you.

I'm also very fond of the way Jack has been portrayed. Always the intractable, stubborn spirit, he knows how to play a situation into his advantage. The last episode this autumn reaffirms that point nicely. While it's patently obvious that he has feelings for Kate, and the sight of Kate and Sawyer by no means is a pleasant one to him, he deftly plays into Ben's bait and turns the table on the Others come operation time. Of course, unbeknownst to him, they're effectively stuck on their soi-dissant "alcatraz." Which, in my view, is an incredible way to sustain suspense in the forthcoming episodes this winter.

As for answering questions about the Lost universe, I'm not too chaffed by the "glaring" plot holes with regard to how the hatch imploded, or why polar bears are roaming the island for that matter. Take it at face value, it's called a willing suspension of disbelief. Without it, no fictional TV-series would be engaging and entertaining. I guess I'm trying to put across the following: don't be anal. The concept is a solid one and I have nothing but optimism for its future.

Enjoy the holidays everyone.

JJ's strength is introducing new plots and mysteries, and developing characters.

His weakness is following through. Finishing what he started. Closing holes he'd opened.

We saw that on Alias; we're now seeing it on Lost. The series meanders, opens up new mysteries and questions, while rarely if ever addressing old ones.

JJ's great at the beginning, but just can't close things out.

Make no mistake, Locke is mentally and physically infirm before the crash and judging by his wavering resolve on the island, his infirmities persist also after the crash. This is not consistent with an all-out hunter. An all-out, through-and-through hunter would have shot and killed that police officer. A hunter would be committed to the primitivism the early incarnation of Locke exhibited. He certainly would not start questioning such elusive ideas as purpose and faith -- harken back to his conversation with the island in the sweat lodge for recent proof. Implicit in the name Locke is the allusion to the philosopher; and philosopher's are never absolute. He'll never accept the cold facts of his circumstance, as would the hunter. It's all consistent, I assure you.

I'm also very fond of the way Jack has been portrayed.


I couldn't agree more. Although Locke is extremely an open portal for the influences of the island and the world, he is still a human being. He may do things because he believes in fate - but he will still question and ponder why he does these things and what effects they have.
Us seeing Locke struggle with some of the decisions he's made, or even been asked to made, is giving us a minds-eye view of the storm.


He may think he's wrong at times but if he continues always going with his strongest instincts perhaps it will begin to piece together - not only his past on the island but his entire life.
And because he falls for these instincts so succumbingly, he earns the hunter's title.

I also love Jack Shephard's person and I'll share the thanks to damon and Foxy <3

It's hard to exactly pin-point what's off about this season, but somehow inconsistencies have creeped in with regards to how characters interact and the choices they make. Or, I should say, perceived inconsistencies. I really don't find Locke's quest for purpose and his decision to abandon the hatch all that jarring. While many fans are wont to portray Locke as a robust, determined character, I think we're giving him too much credit. Here is a man that is entrenched in an endless battle with his father and thus also his identity. Heck, he even goes to the extent and joins a sect to somehow bridge that gap.

Make no mistake, Locke is mentally and physically infirm before the crash and judging by his wavering resolve on the island, his infirmities persist also after the crash. This is not consistent with an all-out hunter. An all-out, through-and-through hunter would have shot and killed that police officer. A hunter would be committed to the primitivism the early incarnation of Locke exhibited. He certainly would not start questioning such elusive ideas as purpose and faith -- harken back to his conversation with the island in the sweat lodge for recent proof. Implicit in the name Locke is the allusion to the philosopher; and philosopher's are never absolute. He'll never accept the cold facts of his circumstance, as would the hunter. It's all consistent, I assure you.

I'm also very fond of the way Jack has been portrayed. Always the intractable, stubborn spirit, he knows how to play a situation into his advantage. The last episode this autumn reaffirms that point nicely. While it's patently obvious that he has feelings for Kate, and the sight of Kate and Sawyer by no means is a pleasant one to him, he deftly plays into Ben's bait and turns the table on the Others come operation time. Of course, unbeknownst to him, they're effectively stuck on their soi-dissant "alcatraz." Which, in my view, is an incredible way to sustain suspense in the forthcoming episodes this winter.

As for answering questions about the Lost universe, I'm not too chaffed by the "glaring" plot holes with regard to how the hatch imploded, or why polar bears are roaming the island for that matter. Take it at face value, it's called a willing suspension of disbelief. Without it, no fictional TV-series would be engaging and entertaining. I guess I'm trying to put across the following: don't be anal. The concept is a solid one and I have nothing but optimism for its future.

Enjoy the holidays everyone.

Very eloquently posted, Zoroaster. I, too, would have to agree with you re:the mini-series.

Damon and Carlton did infer that the beginning of S3 would have us with the 'Others'; giving us some insight into who they are, what they represent. It is still a question mark as to whether they represent "the good guys", depending what their definition of "good guys" is/are. And who(m) is playing who(m)?

I'm at something of a loss as to why so many posters have become so disenchanted with this show that they are considering switching off! Although, having said that, this thread has been a brilliantly argued and often very eloquent read.

I think the producers have managed remarkably well to juggle so many character arcs, diverse storylines and multiple mysteries - so far. The problem the show faces now is inherent in its narrative structure, eliding real-time ensemble events with single character-focused flashbacks.

Up to now, the flashback technique has been an excellent tool for sharpening the thematic field per episode and enabling us to get to know the characters in considerable depth, importantly ensuring the moral ambiguity of each character is strongly highlighted. This has been a key ingredient I feel to the show's continued success.

The problem now, is that the series needs to start answering numerous unexplained questions - not super-fast, but incrementally, and surely. Many, of course, have been answered already (as detailed in this thread).

But the original Losties, who have the strongest fanbases, cannot provide the answers to many outstanding questions, through their personal flashbacks - not unless we are to be bombarded with too many suspicious coincidences.

So, to learn the secrets of the island we need fresh blood, fresh flashbacks, but this in turn means 'neglecting' favourite characters as we get to know, and hopefully invest our interest in new characters as well. It's a dangerous game the producers have to play at this point, because WITHOUT new characters, new storylines, external stimuli, the Losties would stagnate and most island mysteries would remain unresolved.

I think the producers need to continue with the flashback format for most episodes, ensuring character development with original and new characters - there has to be a strong emphasis on character-driven narrative for the show to function, and that includes the pot pourri of life: romance, tragedy, indecision, contradiction - but more episodes need to happen completely in the here and now, in 'real-time' too. This is not then forsaking the flashback-focused narrative structure, but supplementing it.

If there is to be strong active plot driving the narrative forwards to some kind of resolution - a 'war' for example, between Others, Losties, and perhaps 'Other' Others too - then this can take place in real-time and simultaneously introduce solutions, in practical form, to some of the island's mysteries, without always resorting to flashbacks. For example, the electro-magnetic surge which downed the plane was revealed to us through action, all considered, as Desmond realised what his past actions had caused in the midst of the action sequence which centred on blowing the hatch - although this had been partly set up by his flashbacks. The revelation, the resolution of a key question, still occured in real-time. Real-time revelation rather than character exposition is vital to the series' momentum, and I am sure this will ensure the show becomes even more action-focused in coming months.

But having said that, flashbacks will always be vital to explain the 'historical' mysteries of the island, that so many of us find intriguing, even if they are not impacting on the Losties now. I just hope that Lost fans will not be too disappointed when their own conspiracy theories are disproved! (Myself included).

For my part, the mysteries are vital, fascinating, engaging, but most of all I love the character interactions, and the show's moral ambivalence. All the characters are surprising; no-one is black or white, good or evil. That is so refreshing.

I love how Locke, for example, who has been maligned for his waywardness in Series Two, is such a confused and confusing character. The lack of steadfastness in these people is what makes it compelling TV in my view. And there is a truth here too. The Losties are trying to survive in horrific and wholly unpredictable circumstances, so we cannot expect character consistency. For all that, most characters retain a strongly pervasive essence. This is a superb achievement from the show's producers, handling so many diverse characters, weaving together so many storylines, past and present. As a writer, I am particularly impressed at this.

Of course it might be conjectured that some characters have become less compelling over time, for a variety of reasons. I am not particularly enthralled with Jin's character, for example. I think Sun would be more interesting without him. I'm a little worried that even Kate, who is a fabulous 'real-time' character, might have run her course in terms of flashbacks ... of course I am not privy to her past, but 'thematically' we've had more of the same so far: yes, yes, we all know Kate likes to 'run.' Time to change the record.

In terms of literal character development a few other Losties have obvious potential still.

For example, who is the 'real' Mr Sawyer?? Unfortunately we cannot learn this from 'our' Sawyer's flashbacks, as he didn't have a clue about Sawyer's real identity when he was in Australia, just before the flight. But Sawyer might have seen his daughter at some point in the past, and this might be key to his character arc at a later date.

How did Locke become wheelchair-bound? We will learn this soon, but I fear this might extinguish his 'mystery' for many of us. I hope not.

We know very little about Claire. And there is more material surely to be sourced from Desmond (of course he is relatively new, so there darned well should be plentiful stuff to learn here), and maybe Sayid too, as he is a fascinating figure in so many respects. Sadly his Nadia subplot cannot be developed in flashback, as he thinks she is dead - unless there has been a more recent encounter with her, that ended - he thinks - tragically. So, I will not jump to conclusions.

I imagine we will have more Jack, and more Jack yet again, but I am worrying that his character will burn out pretty soon if the producers are not careful. It's probably a good thing he's taking a mini-break this season.

Charlie has been "Drive-Shafted" to death, so any new flashbacks need to be non-drug, failed rock-band oriented - could be tricky. He's a young guy. Not too much life has been lived to report on.

Basically the key remaining flashbacks become Juliet's, Ben's (very much so), and even someone like Cindy - her experiences on the island alone would be interesting. And there will have to be other new characters with THEIR flashbacks to make any sense of the island and some of its mysteries. The trick will be sustaining interest in all the characters in tandem - old and new - and this will mean changing how many future episodes are formatted.

And finally, Series Three seems to have disappointed many, and elated others. I do think there has been a little inconsistency in the writing here. The entire captivity premise has been bodged and confusing for starters. Why the hell were Kate and Sawyer locked up in bear cages? Why were they on a 'list' at all? Too many questions here ... and surely the answers don't jeopardise the entire show concept? Or do they?

But I do find issue with those who maintain this mini-series was over-focused on the Others. How can this be true when we had episodes centred on Locke, Eko and Sun? Granted, these particular episodes weren't sterling Lost material - but there was still plentiful food for thought.

Like many others I've enjoyed Jack's frothing fury in Series Three. An improvement on his controlling authoritarianism in former episodes. I think the Kate/Sawyer love match has both attracted and repelled viewers in equal measure - although I think the balance is in the romance's favour overall. I believe the producers have done what they had to do. This love triangle had become much-hyped and seemingly interminable, and they have now solved it, sealed it, and can move on. I think Kate and Sawyer as a troubled and troublesome team will be vastly more interesting actually, so am glad they have moved the plot on. It had to be done. Now we can get on with the rest of the season.

I'm at something of a loss as to why so many posters have become so disenchanted with this show that they are considering switching off! Although, having said that, this thread has been a brilliantly argued and often very eloquent read.

Great post! (didn't quote the whole thing for brevity)

Character development on Lost has an age problem due to flashbacks. Younger characters are limited by their youth.

Ignoring the obvious Walt and Emma/Zach (will they get a flashback? they could have some interesting tie-in with other characters), the youngest characters' stories have either been told or are running short. Shannon and Boone, the youngest, had their stories told and are dead. Ana Lucia was fairly young. Of the next four youngest, Claire, Hurley, Kate and Charlie (not necessarily in that order), Claire and Hurley still seem to have a lot left in them. We should get "the accident" story from Hurley soon, but after that what is there? Claire could have a very interesting couple of flashbacks but they'll likely take place within the last 2 years, pregnancy and just before due to her age. And if there is some Jack and Christian connection, then she could have a child flashback as well. Charlie does seem played out. Kate has a potential early backstory relating to what she said on the tape with Tom, but she wouldn't be played by EL or course. I do have hope that Kate has some deeper connection, maybe call it a tangle, with the Marshal. I've always thought there was much more to their relationship than just fugitive/pursuer. Her very personal phone call to him in I Do seemed to bring that back to me.

As for the older characters, certainly Sawyer has some fleshing out that could happen, Jack apparently is going to the "dark" side which will be refreshing, I think you're right that Sayid could have a later Nadia encounter, Sun and Jin seem played out, Locke certainly has more to tell. Of course he is somewhat older so there's lots of potential for his earlier life. I'm probably missing someone from the original cast.

Finally, there are Rose and Bernard, who have had just the one flashback and have huge potential, especially Rose, for interesting story lines earlier in their lives. She could have crossed with any of the other characters or their families when they were younger and so would not make the connection on the island since they'd all look different. I'm not sure we even know what Rose did before she met Bernard, but picture Rose being a teacher and having Kate as a student. And perhaps Bernard is the real Sawyer, haha! Doubtful, based on his personality, but would be a shocker.

This wasn't such a well developed post, but had to get my ideas out as they came to me.

I'm at something of a loss as to why so many posters have become so disenchanted with this show that they are considering switching off!
I think the producers have managed remarkably well to juggle so many character arcs, diverse storylines and multiple mysteries - so far.

I completely agree. The fact that the writers have managed to weave such a wonderful tapestry of characters and insert flashbacks that allows us to see them in "normal" circumstances was just genious.

The problem now, is that the series needs to start answering numerous unexplained questions - not super-fast, but incrementally, and surely. Many, of course, have been answered already (as detailed in this thread).

I believe we will get SOME of those answers this year, but of course, not all of them. Again, the first six episodes was a mini series meant to introduce the Others and perhaps throw in a few more mysteries, and answer a few questions. I think most of the answers that are planned to be revealed this season will happen when the season resumes.

So, to learn the secrets of the island we need fresh blood, fresh flashbacks, but this in turn means 'neglecting' favourite characters as we get to know, and hopefully invest our interest in new characters as well.

Absolutely true. New characters have to be introduced to play off of the Lost core characters. It's what keeps things interesting. I don't beleive the Tallies were ever truly meant to survive or thrive for any great period of time. Their story was simply to help tell the story of the Losties from the fuselage, and as a result, most were expendable. I believe the same will hold true for the Others and any other new characters that are introduced. In my opinion, Lost will always play to the original core characters, any other characters introduced later will be used as a means of furthering the Losties storyline. I don't have a problem with that.

I really enjoy the flashbacks, but I do agree that some are simply re-explaining old stories. Jin and Sun: we already know he works for a crime lord. Locke: We know that his father is scum. Sawyer: We know he's a con and is hunting the man who "killed" his parents. Jack: We know he has serious issues with his father. Kate: We know she's on the run. Hurley: Is cursed by his numbers. Charlie: (his are the most tedious for me). Yes, I know he's a former rock star on drugs.

I am not tired of the flashbacks, but I would like to see different flashbacks.

For my part, the mysteries are vital, fascinating, engaging, but most of all I love the character interactions, and the show's moral ambivalence. All the characters are surprising; no-one is black or white, good or evil. That is so refreshing.

Agreed.

I love how Locke, for example, who has been maligned for his waywardness in Series Two, is such a confused and confusing character. The lack of steadfastness in these people is what makes it compelling TV in my view.

I agree that the flawed characters prove the most interesting. I happen to feel that Locke deserved much more flack for how he behaved in season two and deserved to be maligned. I actually disliked Locke alot in season two, so I'm hoping to see a shift to the Locke I use to love back in early season one. Now, I LOVE Terry O'Quinn and the Locke character. I just felt that Locke behaved so poorly and selfishly last season.

In terms of literal character development a few other Losties have obvious potential still.For example, who is the 'real' Mr Sawyer??

Yes, I would like to know more about him, and wouldn't it be typical Lost to have the "real" Mr. Sawyer connected to somone on the island?

We know very little about Claire.

She may have some very interesting things coming up in the winter.

I imagine we will have more Jack, and more Jack yet again, but I am worrying that his character will burn out pretty soon if the producers are not careful. It's probably a good thing he's taking a mini-break this season.

I'm not tired of Jack's flashbacks any more or less than any others, and I think people misunderstand the purpose of some flashbacks. For instance, this past season premiere was not, imo, so much about another Jack and his daddy flashback. It was more about showing the audience how obssessive Jack was in ATOTC. He was obssessed with learning the name of the man that Sarah was seeing. By the end of that episode, Jack didn't want to know the name anymore, he just wanted to know if she was happy. Now, it may seem like an unimportant thing in a flashback, but it actually helped show me that Jack was starting to accept and let go of things he can't change.

Just my opinion on that. My point is that the flashbacks are good when they deliver new information or help us understand how a character has changed, regressed, or hasn't changed at all.

Charlie has been "Drive-Shafted" to death, so any new flashbacks need to be non-drug, failed rock-band oriented - could be tricky. He's a young guy. Not too much life has been lived to report on.

I agree with you on this. I'm not sure what else can be told about Charlie, but I could be surprised.

Basically the key remaining flashbacks become Juliet's, Ben's (very much so), and even someone like Cindy - her experiences on the island alone would be interesting.

I am curious about Juliet, Ben, and Cindy and how they started and ended up where they are now. I DON'T care about the other "Others," and I really hope they don't invest too much time about Tom or whomever. I could be wrong.

And finally, Series Three seems to have disappointed many, and elated others. I do think there has been a little inconsistency in the writing here. The entire captivity premise has been bodged and confusing for starters. Why the hell were Kate and Sawyer locked up in bear cages? Why were they on a 'list' at all? Too many questions here ... and surely the answers don't jeopardise the entire show concept? Or do they?

I don't think the captivity has been confusing at all. I understand what's happening, and the questions that you raised actually made the storytelling more intriguing for me. Those questions will be answered, but I don't think it will jeopardize any show concepts. (I could be wrong about that too).

But I do find issue with those who maintain this mini-series was over-focused on the Others. How can this be true when we had episodes centred on Locke, Eko and Sun? Granted, these particular episodes weren't sterling Lost material - but there was still plentiful food for thought.

Agreed.

Like many others I've enjoyed Jack's frothing fury in Series Three. An improvement on his controlling authoritarianism in former episodes.

Okay, this is where I disagree, and frankly, I don't get where Jack suddenly got a reputation as a controlling authoritarianism. He didn't become this in season two. He was always a control freak, but a "controlling authoritarianism?" No. The only person I saw Jack behave that way with was Locke, and Locke deserved it. Now, Jack has problems trusting people (and clearly he's not wrong from some of the things I've seen), but he does need to work on his communication skills for sure. However, with the exception of Locke, I don't recall Jack steamrolling over the other Losties to have his way. In fact, there is a pivotal scene where I can prove quite the opposite. If you can provide some examples, it would help me to understand where you're coming from because I honestly don't recall a "You have to do it my way," except with Locke, and then only once if I recall (when Jack wanted Locke to wait on investigating the hatch).

I think the Kate/Sawyer love match has both attracted and repelled viewers in equal measure - although I think the balance is in the romance's favour overall. I believe the producers have done what they had to do. This love triangle had become much-hyped and seemingly interminable, and they have now solved it, sealed it, and can move on. I think Kate and Sawyer as a troubled and troublesome team will be vastly more interesting actually, so am glad they have moved the plot on. It had to be done.

Yeah, I don't understand why people got so upset over the romance/sex and accused Lost of becoming a soap opera. Why? Because they devoted an episode to the romantic / emotional aspect of Kate, Sawyer and Jack? Didn't bother me. Eh.

Now we can get on with the rest of the season.

Boy, it can't happen soon enough for me.

Yes, I would like to know more about him, and wouldn't it be typical Lost to have the "real" Mr. Sawyer connected to somone on the island?



She may have some very interesting things coming up in the winter.


;)
I agree, we have been kept a bit in the dark over Claire. ONE flashback since season 2, and island-oriented. i agree there could certainly be a HUGER reason for this. Claire has been a factor since Day One. They always knew her baby was going to survive (so far, knock on wood) on the island, and also that she would been taken during pregnancy. We must see where this leads. Also regarding her person, more information would fill in some blanks, especially as the story unfolds.

Sawyer is already slightly connected with Jack.. He may be connected with someone else. Although perhaps not specifically him. There may be a HUGE unknown connection on the island. A brother/sister line might bore me depending on the linee,,,,

Sayid: I heard whispers! There are others!!!!!
Jack: No way, dude! You be crazy!!!

Next episode:
Jack: You said you heard something in the forest and that there are others? Awesome!
Sayid: That's crazytalk! I was going cuckoo. Don't mind me... move along, now.

WastedMind as a new Lost fan I think your opinions are spot on. Not having access to ABC I bought seasons 1 & 2 DVD sets. I became hooked after the first episode, Pilot 1. I just hope when the rest of season three begins in Feb. they can restore the integrity of the show and have it at least try to measure up to the excellent Season One & near perfect Season 2. Forget taking the easy way out with the romance triangle and get back to basics with updates on the ensemble cast who've largely been ignored. That's what made it such a great show at the start.

Wastedmind quote- "That being said, when a film or a show begins to differ from it's original intentions or when TPTB state numerous things on record and then do opposite or completely change that statement, I become less trustworthy of who is running the show. And then less trustworthy of who is writing the show. I am in it for the journey because the journey is what counts in a story. It's the escape and the excitement that brings one to enjoy the experience. Not the ending. Just that journey seems to be stopping off for a little site seeing that I'd prefer to not be involved in, ya know?"

I agree it's not what it was. I believed for the first two seasons it was the greatest thing in television history, including The Twilight Zone, which is saying a lot. I felt like I was watching something timeless, of great import, of a higher truth. I felt things were revealed to me with perfect timing, so that I could come to my own conclusions and appreciate all the nuance, and I thanked them for it. Nothing was what it seemed, and I loved that as I found out more truths, even they might not be what they seemed. Having watched the first two seasons on DVD and then coming into real time season 3, at first I thought ok, the commercials are affecting my reaction, but then I remember the trite glass ballerina, the four-toed statue and Ben making Kate wear a dress and it becomes just another tv show. The writers have written themselves into corners, have lost their vision, and frankly the hiatus isn't helping. I just hope -- please please please - when it comes back, they make me a believer again.

Great thread. I agree with most of the points raised.

It all boils down to the writing. What happens in each episode, how it happens... do characters retain their essence? Who oversees continuity? Is the dialogue intelligent? Would this character say this? I heard Adewale fought for his character to stay true to what he believed were his roots. Argued about his lines. Eko was so vivid precisely bacause of the creative nature between the actor and writers. I think that overall, the writing has not been as good lately. John Locke and Charlie Pace have delivered some truly cringe-episode I-inducing lines that I have had a hard time believing they're the same characters... it almost feels like a bad dream someone is having. And poor Nikki and Paulo...

I can't wait for the ensemble focus to come back. I like seeing the other survivors on the beach, like in SOS, but not entire episodes dedicated to them, rather spread out throughout the season. It sort of gives me a level point of view (not tainted by Jack or Locke or whoever has the flashback that episode) of what is going on. I missed this in season 2 when the hatch was discovered. The caves brought more confrontation and division among the survivors than the hatch (only Locke, Jack and later Eko seemed to care about it). What did the hatch represent to the survivors? Weren't some terrified by it's implications? Was it just a laundromat? If they didn't care why should we?

What gives me hope: They will now have a definitive end date and this will get LOST out of stall mode. There will be more focus. No character resets. Hopefully the anti-climatic nature of season 2 will be avoided ("do not use the computer for anything other than...", "build an army...", "new sheriff in town...", "so tell me charlie, have you forgotten?" were used to end episodes on a cliffhanger but then nothing happens, the ideas fizzle) as will the continuity holes (how the caves were forgotten in season 2, the boat anyone?, Michael's betrayal). There will be no need to draw out episodes to try to create new seasons, the flashbacks will be shorter and to the point. They hired a new writer Brian K. Vaughan. More focus on the beach folk. I have faith.

If it weren't for the internet, i would've never had the opinion that the show was going downhill in anyway, it's still as strong as ever for me, but then again, i am easy to please:cool:

I agree. I love the show more and more each week. I liked having a break (actually lived my life!) but I can't wait for is return. I hope it stays strong since now it shouldn't have to cater to gaining an audience since has an end now.

This post is just in general regard to what this show has become and is becoming. I have been on this island since September of 2004. I watched as the Pilot aired, in awe of what is the greatest pilot ever made. I bought season 1 day and date. I bought season 2 day and date. I love this show, period.

Now, whats my problem with this show? I am a writer/director and I'm not sure if that helps but it definetely make me look at this show from a writers POV. And last season I guessed long before things came out or began becoming clear what would happen. And after the finale i guessed what would happen this season. Thus far I'm right.

Enough about me. Back to the show. Season One is where we all fell in love. Where chaos and randomness was King. There was no pre-emptive "this is what this season is about", it was just madness. And I refuse to accept the fact that its because we were learning with the characters and everything and everyone was new. That is just not the case in most claims. The second season came with a great opener and never left that eps. That was the problem, the second season fell into this, "i'm all about dharma and not about the randomness of the island" and that is where I think most of us began loosing that feeling of being hooked. It became more of a cat and mouse game. The writers began putting things in just to get people talking, things that will never be answered. It was all for the moment and not for the bigger picture. And I feel this season will only get worse. We wont have tid bits here and there. It'll be like JJ and Damon are say, all about action-adventure and the others. Yay. A entire 23-24 eps all about one thing. Great! Next season 23-24 eps about the polar bear and the monster! Yay! That won't be annoying or seam like filler at all. And maybe in 10-15 seasons they will get around to what the show was. I love the slow reveal i'm not hurting for answers. I'm just tired of what seem to be Rants and always answering questions with questions. No solid answers, just answering with more questions. And not sure about all of you bout I wont stay for more than 4 maybe 5 seasons before I think that they have taken it way to far in stretching things out.

Now, this season, the big "killer" twist that Damon said will make people love this show or jump shark will based on what the offer to jack was tonight probably be Jack leaving the island and thus the show for a long long time. That'd make a lot of people "jump shark". I would be one of them, removing the main character for, most likely a pointless and plotless reason only to bring him back at the end/beginning of season 4 in some silly heroic way. Great! I'm also sure that Juilet is actually a doctor and will help our losties is any injuries would occur, and how lucky are they to have a doctor after jack left. Great coincidence.

Just saying that I wish this show would be fun again. I wish the writers would realize that instead of subplots of an entire story arc, which is what lost is, we would rather them get back to the actual story arc. I don't need a little rant here about how dharma did this and we are all super interested yet never actually explore the hatch b.s. I want them to get back to hooking me every week and having me hanging by a thread in excitement like the first season. There is no way any of you can legitimently say that last season was like the first. Where every weak you just thought about lost and how crazy this and that was and how this means that. And all that long before dharma came in to throw all of us off.

I hope I am wrong and this season gets back onto the path this show started on. I also hope Jack doesnt leave the island. But what hurts this show the most for me is that if that does happen, there are plenty of other amazing shows that are around, like Battlestar Galatica, 24, Heroes just to name a few.

What you think?

***Mod edited***

m3r0v1ng1an, if you have nothing to add to a thread other than personal attacks on fellow posters, don't reply at all! And I suggest you read the FAQ (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/faq.php) and the site rules (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/faq.php?faq=general_site_info#faq_general_site_rul es) (again, hopefully), especially the part about courtesy to other posters...