CHRISTIAN SHEPHARD: (sighs) I had a boy on my table today -- I don't know,
maybe a year younger than you -- he had a bad heart. (He stands up and refills
his drink.) It got real hairy real fast, and everybody's looking to your old
man to make decisions, and I was able to make those decisions because ... at the
end of the day, after the boy died, I was able to wash my hands and ... (sighs)
... come home to dinner, you know, watch a little Carol Burnett, laugh till my
sides hurt, and how can I do that? hmm? I mean, even when I fail, how do I do
that, Jack? Because I have what it takes. Don't choose, Jack. Don't decide.

(He sits down.)

CHRISTIAN SHEPHARD: You don't want to be a hero. You don't want to try and
save everyone. Because when you fail ... you just don't have what it takes.

Jack's father is the type of doctor you hope you never have,

He's also the type of father you hope never to have

Jack has definitely shown strength above his father, but has so many insecurities which were caused by his father growing up. I'd like to know what really happened with his father in Sydney.

I;m sure we will find out what happened in Sydney.

I've mentioned this before, but in some ways I wished that Jack's father hadn't died. I just think that it would be really cool, after everything is said and done, to see how Jack would interact with him after his years on the island. (I know Jack wouldn't be on the island if his father hadn't died, and he wouldn't be going through the same things, but you know what I mean.)

I think he'd be so much more powerful and confident. He'd be able to stand up to his father like he never could before and he could confront him about all the abuse he took growing up. That would be one scene I would love to be able to see!

Anyways, just a little something I was daydreaming about!

Shep :)

Sheppardess, I know what you mean. I often think that as well. If Jack comes out of this island thing a stronger person, a true leader, having lived up to his potential--I'd love to see his father's face when Jack showed up like that.

Jack's father abused him as surely as if he'd hit him physically, that sort of emotional abuse can be so devastating. There is something so incredibly awful about saying that to a child. Because indirectly he's even associating Jack with the boy who died on his table, basically saying it didn't matter and then saying Jack didn't have what it took, would never be as good himself. It's as much as saying he didn't really care if Jack lived or died on top saying Jack was a weakling and a failure.

And when we hear what he says to Jack in the next flashback as an adult and talks about molding "soft metal into steel" and how he'd "sacrificed certain aspects of their relationship"--in essense he's admitting to his abuse and then blaming it on Jack, because he did it to make Jack strong, "steel", as opposed to weak soft metal. He's essentially saying he wasn't a father to him at all. He's taking credit for Jack's accomplishments while leaving Jack with credit only for his weaknesses. He's treated Jack as a rival instead of encouraging and loving him as he should a son. Jack was never going to be in a position to please his father because his father both wanted to purge Jack of his own projected weaknesses AND never allow Jack to be better or even equal to him. Jack could never win, he'd be constantly pushed and pulled in different directions. His father emotionally manipulated him(is it any wonder he tends to be rather sensitive to being manipulated like that now-see Whatever the Case May Be"? And yet he still is basically a forgiving, kind hearted person, just someone who has walls built up to try and protect himself from further abuse and hurt.

I think you're right, LostWord, he learned early on in life that he needed to protect himself emotionally, putting up barriers and closing himself off. It's sort of interesting though: he can care for other people as a doctor, showing compassion for them and calming their fears, but he still finds it difficult to go that little bit extra and express his deeper feelings (like with Kate). I guess deep down he's still that little boy on the playground who tried to protect the kid getting beat-up, just now he has a thick shell protecting him from being hurt.

When you really think about all the abuse he's taken, it's really amazing that he's turned out to be not only a decent person, but someone that others can really trust. Most of them have really accepted him as a leader, and as some people have mentioned before, it will be interesting to see their reactions if he ever tells anyone about his past.

this is a simple thing to add but I think it says a lot...As Cat pointed out in this past ep HC-we saw Jack place his hand on Charlie's shoulder & warmly & reassuringly say "nothing's going to happen to her". I think this was a subtle but telling juxtapostion that Jack psychoanalysists such as ourselves* :D appreciate the most. It was completely contradictiory to the false gesture of a hand on the shoulder Jack's father gave to him when he was trying to get him to sign the statement, & to the man who lost his wife. The point is that Jack does have what it takes & more. He is sincere in his caring. Whereas being a doctor is an egotistical self affirming venue for Jack's father "it's all about the greater good", for Jack it really is about helping ppl.

The point is that Jack does have what it takes & more.

Exactly! It reminds me of what Rose said to him in Walkabout (I think). I can't exactly remember the quote, but is was just about him being a caring and thoughtful person and how that's probably why he became a doctor. She could see that in him after only a few days of knowing him.

Of course then he said that it was the 'family business', but that's another thing I find interesting. It wasn't really Jack's choice to go into medicine, and yet it suits him perfectly and he seems to be really good at it (I'm going based on the fact that he's a spinal surgeon and what his father said about being 'one of the most talented young surgeons').

~Shep~

When Jack's father was talking about him, I was getting teary -eyed. My opinion about Christian didn't really change, but it was nice to hear that he thought his son was such a good man (because we all know he is!).
I just wish Sawyer had told Jack what he knew.


:)
Shep

When Jack's father was talking about him, I was getting teary -eyed. My opinion about Christian didn't really change, but it was nice to hear that he thought his son was such a good man (because we all know he is!).
I just wish Sawyer had told Jack what he knew.*

:)
Shep


He will. At the right time.

yeah Sam I'm afraid he will when he can use it to wound him* :-\ Right now Sawyer has the power over Jack but Jack doesn't know it. Sawyer can release Jack from his burden, but he chose not to. Perhaps because of the 'incident' at the hotel bar, Sawyer blamed Jack's dad for convincing him to kill the wrong man. He went back to the bar, Jack's dad went to leave, Sawyter/him fought in the alley (verbally) & the stress led to Jack's dad's heart attack. Just my guess. So Sawyer withheld the info so not to incriminate himself, or give Jack the satisfaction of being free of some of his pain.

yeah Sam I'm afraid he will when he can use it to wound him* :-\ Right now Sawyer has the power over Jack but Jack doesn't know it. Sawyer can release Jack from his burden, but he chose not to. Perhaps because of the 'incident' at the hotel bar, Sawyer blamed Jack's dad for convincing him to kill the wrong man. He went back to the bar, Jack's dad went to leave, Sawyter/him fought in the alley (verbally) & the stress led to Jack's dad's heart attack. Just my guess. So Sawyer withheld the info so not to incriminate himself, or give Jack the satisfaction of being free of some of his pain.

Just that wouldn't release Jack from his pain. We don't know enough of Jack's backstory yet. It may just prove what a manipulator his father was.
We saw Christian Shepheard con a drink, get someone to share a bottle with him for telling a story we have no idea is true or not. Jack knows exactly what is father is. CS was responsible for someone's death. He convinced his son to go along with it by pulling all the strings he knew how to pull.

I agree. If & when Sawyer decides to tell Jack what Jack's Dad said, Jack will have some new info to ponder, but the pain will not simply disappear. You can't wipe out the years with one decent comment directed your way. No matter HOW heartwarming. After all....Jack could come to the conclusion the old man was simply feeling the MAJOR GUILT. If he could come to terms with it, then he would be heading in the right direction.

oh no I didn't mean to imply that once Sawyer told Jack his pain would just go poof-not at all* :-\ I just meant by Sawyer doing so at the very least*Jack would have the comfort of knowing his father didn't die hating him or not loving him. It doesn't change the burden from all the years in between, but he suffers greatly just in thinking his dad felt betrayed by him before he passed.* :'( I just want to hug Jack.

oh no I didn't mean to imply that once Sawyer told Jack his pain would just go poof-not at all* :-\ I just meant by Sawyer doing so at the very least*Jack would have the comfort of knowing his father didn't die hating him or not loving him. It doesn't change the burden from all the years in between, but he suffers greatly just in thinking his dad hated him before he passed.* :'( I just want to hug Jack.


I think there will be a better time for Sawyer to tell Jack. Having the information come from Sawyer, right now, would not comfort Jack. He will have to reconcile what he feels for his father before he will be willing to believe that his father really cared about him. If he really did. Jack seemed more like a trophy.

...yeah, I'm not sure if Jack's Dad REALLY meant it....or just as I said the MAJOR GUILTS

I'm pretty sure his father meant it. Why would you lie to a complete stranger about something like that? Either way, I'm sure Sawyer will love having this upper hand on Jack for a little while, even if he's the only who knows!

It only occurred to me on my second viewing that Christian was the one who (indirectly) pushed Sawyer to murder the wrong man. It's sort of ironic that even when he was trying to do a good thing and 'ease Sawyer's suffering', he still screwed up and someone ended up dead.

His whole philosophy of "it's fate, some people are just meant to suffer" really gets to me, though. Like he's the only one suffering! What about the family of the woman he killed while operating under the influence, or his own son who has had to grow up with his emotional abuse? It seems to me that his suffering is more his own creation then just bad luck.

I also found it interesting that Jack used his father's saying, but in a different context (I actually didn't quite understand why he chose to say his father's saying at that point in the conversation, but maybe someone with a better recollection of the scene could explain that one to me ;)). He totally didn't buy that some people have a hard time just because it's 'fate'.

I hope everyone's enjoying their weekend!
:laugh:
~Shep~

I posted this in "Outlaws" but I'll put it here again. My view on this whole Christian/Sawyer connection is very different. It led me to believe that somewhere down the road this may bring Jack and Sawyer closer as opposed to driving them apart. I'm not so sure Sawyer necessarily views this as having the upper hand. Remember when Christian was talking to Sawyer about his son and Sawyer was listening intently? He's not going to forget what he was saying. So, now Sawyer knows the great man Christian was talking about was Jack. Even if Sawyer feels that it was Christian's prompting that drove him to murder the wrong man, that mistake in and of itself may make him think twice about blaming Jack for Christian's mistake. And no one knows yet if there is a connection with Christian's death to Sawyer. Sawyer has a lot of emotion to deal with regarding the whole subject and may just be processing it. That's a lot to dump on Jack all of a sudden too. Sawyer has a good heart down deep, so I think that he won't hold this over Jack's head at all and may not even have the merit to do so. I'm hoping against hope this brings them together somehow.

I posted this in "Outlaws" but I'll put it here again.* My view on this whole Christian/Sawyer connection is very different.* It led me to believe that somewhere down the road this may bring Jack and Sawyer closer as opposed to driving them apart.* * I'm not so sure Sawyer necessarily views this as having the upper hand.* Remember when Christian was talking to Sawyer about his son and Sawyer was listening intently?* He's not going to forget what he was saying.* So, now Sawyer knows the great man Christian was talking about was Jack.* * Even if Sawyer feels that it was Christian's prompting that drove him to murder the wrong man, that mistake in and of itself may make him think twice about blaming Jack for Christian's mistake.* * And no one knows yet if there is a connection with Christian's death to Sawyer.* Sawyer has a lot of emotion to deal with regarding the whole subject and may* just be processing it.* That's a lot to dump on Jack all of a sudden too.* * Sawyer has a good heart down deep, so I think that he won't hold this over Jack's head at all and may not even have the merit to do so.* * I'm hoping against hope this brings them together somehow.

I don't think the Sawyer and CS connection is over either. I think Sawyer gets to see the other side of CS and that may completely outweigh what he told Sawyer the first time they met. It may be so connected that Saywer can't tell Jack about the first meeting without telling Jack about the 2nd meeting. Which might hurt Jack even more to know what happened then, than not knowing his dad supposedly forgave him.

did that make sense?

I put this in Outlaws as well but what the hay :D..

firstly, what we heard of the coroner's report was the sum total. He died of a fatal & sizable heart attack. The cause of death, as in what made the body shut down, is not necessarily the trauma that led to the death. I.e, if someone is stabbed , that's the trauma-but the cause of death could be blood loss vs. fatal injury to an organ....Say you punctured a lung, pulmonary distress would be indicated as the cause of death...An accute stressful event-such as an altercation or something that frightened the person can trigger a heart attack....The alcohol would have primed his system. It's why the coroner said the alcohol "likely" or "probably" (one of the two) led to myocardial infarction...Preliminary autopsies can be inconclusive or somewhat vague.....I didn't see any bruises or contusions on Christian's face indicating a fight, but this isn't to say other trauma that was non-fatal didn't occur to other portions of the body that none the less caused stress & set off the heart attack. It begs the question what would prompt Sawyer to say in HM "I was just giving the guy back his bottle."

I don't think Sawyer directly or intentionally set out to kill Jack's dad, but a chunk of time is missing between when Jack's dad was found & Sawyer was arrested...One would not be arrested simply for buying someone drinks. Especially if Sawyer was not in Christan's presence when he passed. At best, Sawyer would be questioned. Some kind of fowl play would have to be supected in order to be taken to jail, & it's obvious if Sawyer was able to leave AUS, he was not arrested on account of Frank's murder...We also have that the hotel manager said "there was an incident at the hotel bar.", & Christian never made it back to his room to get his wallet...I'm thinkin that Sawyer was so upset & angry after he killed the wrong man, that he went back to the bar, Christian still there, & confronted him. Now we know Christian was escorted out of there, & found in an alley somewhere....Again, I'm not saying Sawyer killed Jack's dad, but he may have contributed to stress which was a catalyst for the heart attack.

I don't think Sawyer not telling Jack had anything to do w/drunk/doctor confidentiality LOL, I think he didn't want Jack to know of possible implication in his dad's death, & he knew if he said anything it would give Jack a bit of comfort to hear what his father had said-I think there was a look of spite there...Sawyer has a history of withholding information until he knows he can use it to hurt the person...Such as not telling Kate about the cave in, or sitting on her secret until she said said something he felt wounded by..More than anything though, I think was Sawyer just keeping quiet because he was trying to process that the son of the man who convinced him to kill the wrong guy, was standing before him.

You guys have me so confused I'll have to watch the ep again. I didn't get the feeling that Jack's dad was the cause of Sawyer killing the wrong man. I thought Sawyer went to the bar to get up enough courage to go kill him and happened to run into the dad. I got the feeling that the dad would have said anything in order for Sawyer to buy him drinks.

The scene where Sawyer picked up the piglet changed my opinion of him. Up until then I considered him a womanizer, cheat, fraud, scummy, coldblooded killer. *Just the way he acted all the time, you couldn't even talk to him about things that were decent without him giving you a smart comment in a buck the system sort of attitude. Like when Kate asked him for the medicine, any decent person would give it up to save someone. Sawyer on the other hand was torturered rather than say he didn't even have the medicine. Unbelievable. * * *It was the way he held up the pig and the way he said I'm not gonna hurt it and then him giving the gun back to Jack. Alot of people will say it was for Kate's sake but I don't buy that from Sawyer. If he thought he needed the gun for protection, he would have kept the gun, no matter what Kate thought. *I don't agree with Sawyer killing that man (whether justified or not) but I understand a little better why he thought he was doing the right thing and he's not a cold blooded killer.
If I'm seeing things clear, someone please explain.

fanofangel - I think that Christian wasn't the direct "cause" for Sawyer to go kill the wrong guy, but he may have definitely pushed him to it by telling him to take care of the business if it will ease his pain. Christian more than likely had no idea it had anything to do with killing someone. You have 2 guys in a bar and very upset with themselves for different reasons. Sawyer I think returned to the bar because he was confused. I thought that Christian was buying though?

Sawyer was buying Christian drinks. Again though if Jack's dad died as a result of drinking too much, Sawyer wouldn't have been arrested simply for that. It's not considered the responsiblity of the person buying for how much the other person consumes.

Sawyer had gone to the bar after he had gone to attempt to kill "Sawyer" the first time, but changed his mind. He was at the bar drinking because he thought he chickened out & couldn't go through with it. At that point he didn't know that who he thought was "Sawyer", was actually Frank..... So after Jack's dad gave the speech, it convinced Sawyer to go back a 2nd time & go through with the murder. I can totally see Sawyer's absolute misery & regret over killing the wrong man, consuming him to the point of anger, where he would blame Jack's dad for convincing him. It ties in w/Jack's comments about the Red Sox never winning the series because Sawyer would outwardly blame someone else for his actions before he realizes he inwardly blames himself.

It ties in w/Jack's comments about the Red Sox never winning the series because Sawyer would outwardly blame someone else for his actions before he realizes he inwardly blames himself.

Ohh, that makes sense! I didn't really get where the whole 'blame it on fate' thing applied to Sawyer, but that makes sense. He does tend to blame other people (or boars) for a lot of what happens to him.

:)
~Shep~

Thanks Banshee - I couldn't remember. I think it all comes down to a Catch 22 with Sawyer because he blamed the wrong guy for his family's demise and killed him. I think he's likely to be much more careful blaming others for his actions from here on out.